Abyssea: Useful jobs and Useless jobs. Your opinions on why.

[Kagato]

Let's face it. Abyssea is all that matters as of this point. No events outside of it are really useful anymore besides Dynamis for certain relics. Maybe. Possibly. *cough*

In this topic, I want everyone to list off jobs that you feel are most useful to Abyssea and the jobs that are almost completely useless or not needed.

I want this topic to maybe give developers an idea of what jobs need changes more than others. Every job should have it's use, but many jobs are just more universal as far as usefulness than others.

Don't list all the jobs, of course. Just the ones you see as the absolute best and the jobs that are the absolute worst right now.


My Opinions are as follows:

Most Useful
Monk - Easily the most useful DD class in the game right now. Tanks better than a Paladin and deals damage better than most, if not all other DD jobs. Can use all 3 weapons needed to obtain a Blue weakness during the evening/morning hours of the in-game time.

Warrior - The most versatile and one of the most powerful DDs right now. Can be used for every situation now and is able to use nearly every weapon for obtaining weakness procs.

White Mage/Black Mage/Red Mage - Self-explainatory, really. Mages are absolutely needed all the time for everything.

Ninja - If a Monk can't do it, a Ninja can. Crazy high evasion, especially with Evasion atmas, allow Ninjas to practically solo most things.


Least Useful
Dark Knight - Dark Knights simply don't add anything to any event right now that other jobs can't do just as well or better. Other DD jobs deal stronger, safer damage and other mages can stun and enfeeble better than they can.

Paladin - Hate to say it but Paladins just can't do it well anymore. For tanking, just about every DD job can tank just as well, if not better (Monk, Ninja) and that leaves them as nothing more than weak DDs with high enmity generation. I feel like Paladins shouldn't be upstaged by anything as a tank, but sadly, they are just rarely ever wanted nowadays.

Corsair/Bard - These support jobs just don't stand out in Abyssea at all. Outside of Abyssea, sure. They're fine, but inside (where just about 90% of the game is now) they aren't needed as much thanks to the Atmas and stat increases. Even Bard-specific songs to trigger weaknesses can be gotten by anyone with a Bard subjob.

Ranger - Possibly the most useless job in the game, inside and outside abyssea. Poor rangers just aren't used anymore. When's the last time you ever saw anyone ask for a Ranger in anything? There simply isn't a need for one at all other than to sit around.


Again, these are just opinions. I'm sure many of you will not only have a different list, but may also vastly disagree with something on my list. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but please be nice about it.

[Greatguardian]

Red Mage is probably in the least useful section right next to SCH. Blue mage needs to be in the most useful section as it has class-specific Grellow procs.

Aside from that, it's more of the same. Before War/Nin/Mnk/Blm/Whm/Blu, it was Rdm/Sam/Brd. Not sure what else needs to be said? What is the purpose of the thread? I'll pass on reading 50 pages of "Why my favorite job is super useful but no one wants it because they're ignorant and SE needs to buff it and Abyssea ruined the game"

[Kagato]

What is the purpose of the thread? I'll pass on reading 50 pages of "Why my favorite job is super useful but no one wants it because they're ignorant and SE needs to buff it and Abyssea ruined the game"

Well if it's that bad a topic, it'll just fade away into obscurity like other bad topics.

[Rambus]

RNG ant that usless but I will say this.

I leveled rng and sam in abyssea lately of stout arm, that range acc and range attack atma ( forget name) and VV.

It was nice seeing 1k+ rang attacks but when I am on SAM/WAR poping out the ws with the same power as rng it does make you think what is going on.

When I shoot and hit 100 tp there is that stupid delay to the point I can use ws, you do not get that when you melee tp ( in otherwords RNG needs a KC to be good)

PLD in abyssea is useless unless you have emp weapon of some sort ( you need damage to hold hate) having emp sword and sheild should be nice in theory ( never seen it though)

SCH in abyssea is a bit useless in lowmaning seals. if you need extra support for NMs or something yeah SCH can be used but not used for smaller farming.

Smaller abyssea farming only works for these jobs:
THF, MNK, BLU, BRD ( proc only, sometimes people replace this with BLM/BRD) WHM.
if you are not one of those jobs you are pretty much SoL.

WAR and NIN/PLD is good for red procs when you need that.

RDM is actally useless in abyssea. you do not need the job ( see what i said about SCH, they are in the same boat)

completey useless job in abyssea:
DRK, PLD ( if no emp weapon)

Most of the time useless:
RDM,SCH,RNG, COR, BRD
(cor is a good job to have in abyssea if emp weapon, but anyone can DD abyssea is more about procing then anything)

outside abyssea:
DRK ( other jobs depend what the event is)
DRK is only useful if doing some type of zerg ( like kirin or something of the sort)

[Greatguardian]

Well if it's that bad a topic, it'll just fade away into obscurity like other bad topics.

Assuming it isn't hijacked by the sort of thing I mentioned, sure. That's not the point though. What sort of discussion is there to have? MNK/WAR/NIN/WHM/BLM/BLU are the most useful jobs in Abyssea. I'm just not sure what there is to talk about when everyone agrees. You're the OP, I'm assuming you had some sort of idea of what direction your thread was supposed to go in. I simply don't see it, so I'm sincerely asking for you to point me in the right direction. What else is there to say?

[MarkovChain]

Corsair/Bard - These support jobs just don't stand out in Abyssea at all. Outside of Abyssea, sure. They're fine, but inside (where just about 90% of the game is now) they aren't needed as much thanks to the Atmas and stat increases. Even Bard-specific songs to trigger weaknesses can be gotten by anyone with a Bard subjob.
.

I'd Like to know why they are more useful outside of abyssea, serious question.

1) Nothing is hard anymore outside or inside of abyssea
2) Nothing is done in alliance outside or inside (lol exp pt, seriously ?) which excludes COR, since that's only where COR is usefull (they don't have the exp use anymore) because generally speaking, mediocre boost to pdif (easy to cap etc) and/or store tp and/or mediocre DA or crit rate bonus is pretty fail.

However for bard I find them as much useful inside or outside to be honest, which means useless inside or outside. If you can do anything without a brd inside, what can't you do outside ?

[Alhanelem]

Every job is useful.

While I would agree that drk is a bit underperforming right now (laregly do the lack of a crit WS on their main wapon), they can still be put to good use.


I'd Like to know why they are more useful outside of abyssea, serious question. Because the strength of their buffs pales in comparison to the effects of the atmas. When your crit rate, str, dex, regain, refresh etc. are already buffed up the wazoo, the effects from cor/brd buffs become less noticeable.

[Kyte]

Bard buffs and Atma buffs don't really overlap. COR's do, however...

[Vold]

Let's face it. Abyssea is all that matters as of this point. No events outside of it are really useful anymore besides Dynamis for certain relics. Maybe. Possibly. *cough*

In this topic, I want everyone to list off jobs that you feel are most useful to Abyssea and the jobs that are almost completely useless or not needed.

I want this topic to maybe give developers an idea of what jobs need changes more than others. Every job should have it's use, but many jobs are just more universal as far as usefulness than others.

Don't list all the jobs, of course. Just the ones you see as the absolute best and the jobs that are the absolute worst right now.


My Opinions are as follows:

Most Useful
Monk - Easily the most useful DD class in the game right now. Tanks better than a Paladin and deals damage better than most, if not all other DD jobs. Can use all 3 weapons needed to obtain a Blue weakness during the evening/morning hours of the in-game time.

Warrior - The most versatile and one of the most powerful DDs right now. Can be used for every situation now and is able to use nearly every weapon for obtaining weakness procs.

White Mage/Black Mage/Red Mage - Self-explainatory, really. Mages are absolutely needed all the time for everything.

Ninja - If a Monk can't do it, a Ninja can. Crazy high evasion, especially with Evasion atmas, allow Ninjas to practically solo most things.


Least Useful
Dark Knight - Dark Knights simply don't add anything to any event right now that other jobs can't do just as well or better. Other DD jobs deal stronger, safer damage and other mages can stun and enfeeble better than they can.

Paladin - Hate to say it but Paladins just can't do it well anymore. For tanking, just about every DD job can tank just as well, if not better (Monk, Ninja) and that leaves them as nothing more than weak DDs with high enmity generation. I feel like Paladins shouldn't be upstaged by anything as a tank, but sadly, they are just rarely ever wanted nowadays.

Corsair/Bard - These support jobs just don't stand out in Abyssea at all. Outside of Abyssea, sure. They're fine, but inside (where just about 90% of the game is now) they aren't needed as much thanks to the Atmas and stat increases. Even Bard-specific songs to trigger weaknesses can be gotten by anyone with a Bard subjob.

Ranger - Possibly the most useless job in the game, inside and outside abyssea. Poor rangers just aren't used anymore. When's the last time you ever saw anyone ask for a Ranger in anything? There simply isn't a need for one at all other than to sit around.


Again, these are just opinions. I'm sure many of you will not only have a different list, but may also vastly disagree with something on my list. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but please be nice about it.


DRK - blue procs, yellow procs

PLD - blue procs, yellow procs, people forgot how to TRICK ATTACK

Cor - gimp without one, blue procs, possibly yellow with sub

Brd - gimp without one, blue procs, yellow procs

Rng - covers both mark and archery blue procs


All sound useful to me.

It's not these jobs problem if you people want to cookie cut your way to the promised land. If you really want to talk useless, there's SMN but even that can hardly be called useless as it's pretty decent with Odin for the typical exp alliance and is pretty good for war cleave. But that's about it really. I guess you could throw it in with COR and BRD for buff usefulness or that it can safely solo some stuff but eh anyway.

The hardcore player base learned that you can cover all red with WAR and NIN, cover all blunt procs with MNK WHM, and cover all yellow procs with blu brd blm rdm whm nin or insert combination of job/job to lessen that even further like blu blm/brd whm/rdm nin and we have to hear for all time how all other jobs are useless because WAR/SAM NIN/WHATEVER MNK/WAR WHM/RDM BLU/WHATEVER BLM/BRD can do it ALL. They can proc all blue blunt, yellow, and red. Everything else is useless. O.m.g. the game is broken.


Really??? I would facepalm right now if not for the fact that Picard did it better and I would look dumb even trying to compete.

[Kyte]

The blue proc argument isn't that great, since you can just try to plan better and go during blunt period.

[Cream_Soda]

Every job is useful.


Wishful thinking

[Rambus]

I'd Like to know why they are more useful outside of abyssea, serious question.

1) Nothing is hard anymore outside or inside of abyssea
2) Nothing is done in alliance outside or inside (lol exp pt, seriously ?) which excludes COR, since that's only where COR is usefull (they don't have the exp use anymore) because generally speaking, mediocre boost to pdif (easy to cap etc) and/or store tp and/or mediocre DA or crit rate bonus is pretty fail.

However for bard I find them as much useful inside or outside to be honest, which means useless inside or outside. If you can do anything without a brd inside, what can't you do outside ?

Inside abyssea it is all about procing, easy lowman farm only cares about yellow for farming.

there are 4 seals

so thf or mnk for tank, whm, blm, and the 4th can be blu or brd.

while farming for KI you want war or nin/pld, a nin/pld has the capacity to proc 10/13 reds.

buff jobs do not do much because of atma, some jobs would benift from the extra atttack or haste, mages dont really need refersh support but you can use buffs to pad damage for them.

a RDM is almost useless in abyssea because cure IV, same with SCH. when you are getting people 2k+ and 3k-4k hp range, cure IV does not cut it. only healer in abyssea is WHM ( plus there is whm only yellow procs)

RDM support may make a difference on a few mobs but most of the time it will not matter, same with cor and brd.

one thing with bringing a support job like brd is that they have to boost 4 people enough to outdo 5 people. in abyssea that is VERY HARD to agure that. in short what is better in abyssea war, war,war, war, war,whm or war,war,war,war, brd, whm?

most of the time the 5 wars would do more damage esp when farming normal mobs or FC aoe farming.

outside abyssea it was common for a dnc and brd to cap delay for people to hit really fast, then on top of that you allow cors to give attack support.

PLD cannot tank in abyssea for the most part without emp weapons. you need to deal damage to keep hate, that simple. It is possible for other jobs to get to the MDT cap if needed, max shell V helps..

the only time i seen some job variation was for rani when we did not want to wait for specific times. The objective there was to cover all blue. so we had a drg and a rng, with war and thf and so on.

[Malamasala]

I think we should all use the correct terms here. We aren't talking useless, but rather not-best.

[Cream_Soda]

I think we should all use the correct terms here. We aren't talking useless, but rather not-best.
Useless is subjective, so while it may not be the correct term for you, it certainly is for me and many others.

[Rambus]

I think we should all use the correct terms here. We aren't talking useless, but rather not-best.

a PLD in abyssea IS useless unless you have emp weapons.
a DRK is a underperformer in damage in abyssea
a RNG is an underperformer in damage in abyssea.
a RDM is useless because it does not proc much and stuck on cure IV
a SCH is useless because it is in the same boat as RDM.
BRD can be replaced with BLM/BRD for procs

that better terms for you?

[Greatguardian]

Useful: Contributes something unique to the group which enhances their ability to get shit done.

Useless: Contributes something that is not unique, extraneous, not necessary for any sort of enhanced progression.

Useful: Nin and War can proc all reds between them. This is the only 2-job full Red combination in the game.

Useless: Every Red that PLD has, WAR also has. If a PLD is trying to Red, it is assumed that the group does not have a WAR. If the group is using a PLD's Red, and has no War, it also needs both a NIN and a DRK. Now you have a PLD and a DRK, two low-tier DDs in your group which could be replaced, and cumulatively outdamaged, by a WAR.

Useful: MNK and WHM can hit every single Blue trigger as long as you pay attention and claim/spawn things in blunt time.

Useless: DRK having Cross Reaper and DRG having Wheeling Thrust are not going to help with Blue. If you're in Piercing time, you need a THF, a RNG, and a DRG in order to land all procs; a mediocre DD, a crap-tier DD, and a DD with no other utility than Blue. If you're in Slashing time, good luck with that.

Useful: BLM can sub Bard and ES Threnodies, effectively covering almost every Grellow in the game. BLU has unique Grellows no one else can use, and can effectively AoE burn without support. WHM is WHM. Cure V, brah.

Useless: RDM and SCH only have access to Tier 3 and Tier 4 nukes. You could bring these jobs, but you would need a BLM in order to cover Ga 3 and AM1 anyways. Once you have a BLM, the RDM and SCH T3/4 nukes are simply superfluous. Also, Cure IV sucks.

[Rambus]

Useful: Contributes something unique to the group which enhances their ability to get shit done.

Useless: Contributes something that is not unique, extraneous, not necessary for any sort of enhanced progression.

Useful: Nin and War can proc all reds between them. This is the only 2-job full Red combination in the game.

Useless: Every Red that PLD has, WAR also has. If a PLD is trying to Red, it is assumed that the group does not have a WAR. If the group is using a PLD's Red, and has no War, it also needs both a NIN and a DRK. Now you have a PLD and a DRK, two low-tier DDs in your group which could be replaced, and cumulatively outdamaged, by a WAR.

Useful: MNK and WHM can hit every single Blue trigger as long as you pay attention and claim/spawn things in blunt time.

Useless: DRK having Cross Reaper and DRG having Wheeling Thrust are not going to help with Blue. If you're in Piercing time, you need a THF, a RNG, and a DRG in order to land all procs; a mediocre DD, a crap-tier DD, and a DD with no other utility than Blue. If you're in Slashing time, good luck with that.

Useful: BLM can sub Bard and ES Threnodies, effectively covering almost every Grellow in the game. BLU has unique Grellows no one else can use, and can effectively AoE burn without support. WHM is WHM. Cure V, brah.

Useless: RDM and SCH only have access to Tier 3 and Tier 4 nukes. You could bring these jobs, but you would need a BLM in order to cover Ga 3 and AM1 anyways. Once you have a BLM, the RDM and SCH T3/4 nukes are simply superfluous. Also, Cure IV sucks.

I try asking my friend this question but what is gellow? I only know yellow. I am confused why this slang word exists, it is orgain and why people use it

[Greatguardian]

I try asking my friend this question but what is gellow? I only know yellow. I am confused why this slang word exists, it is orgain and why people use it

Green/Yellow. It's because the !! itself is a gradient that is green on top and yellow on bottom. It was coined as a compromise between people who insisted it was green, and those who insisted it was yellow.

[Rambus]

Green/Yellow. It's because the !! itself is a gradient that is green on top and yellow on bottom. It was coined as a compromise between people who insisted it was green, and those who insisted it was yellow.

HUH?!?! 1/2 the time I do not even see it. mob too big or something other times all i see is yellow

[Greatguardian]

HUH?!?! 1/2 the time I do not even see it. mob too big or something other times all i see is yellow

If you find the .dat in AltanaViewer you can see what I mean. It was a raging debate for like a week on BG till someone finally just posted the .DATs of the animations and people stuck with the hybrid term. Looking at it now, it's really in the middle. Here's a link to a random picture of it on Google:

http://mdh.gamependium.com/media/192/monster_grellow.jpg

[Rambus]

-.- i kinda understand but to me there is more yellow and it looks yellow when quickly flashed. idk -.-

[Leonlionheart]

To say that BRD is less useful inside of Abyssea is just silly... I've seen Ulhuadshi- along with dozens of other NMs that cast -ja or -ga IV magic, or things such as Gates of hades- lay down a full abyssite of merit MNK in one spell (Yes, Ulhuadshi can do 3.2k+ Stoneja under 10% HP with barstonra on) With carols, this makes all such NMs as dangerous as a lolibri in wajaom woodlands. BRD will take the headache out of EVERY SINGLE NM INSIDE ABYSSEA aside from Rani, Shinryu, and debatably Azdaja and Apademak

Not to mention there is absolutely no way to cap haste without a BRD, and in a DD party giving that much haste will out perform a 4th of 5th DD (assuming you have a WHM in the party) by far, depending on jobs/gear.

If you have 2 brds and are cycling them out, not that you would need to, you could probably be capping attack without berserk on several relevent NMs in scars/visions.

Corsair too would out perform a 4th or 5th DD in a party with NIN MNK THF DNC, because blitzer's roll is coolbeans on non-2handers. Samurai roll also has its place if it can knock a 2hander up a xhit. 4hit Ukon w/o sam in party (roll 11) Can you hear me?

For the other jobs that are debatably useless inside abyssea- DRK/WAR can do everything war can (Assuming you have a pitchfork from halloween) proc wise and more for slashing blue procs. Capped gear haste means faster stuns along with weapon bash for more stun capabilities in dangerous situations. Torcleaver is a force to be reckoned with too.


TL;DR: The point here is that most jobs if played well have a use, except PLD. If you enjoy playing it, go for it.
Except PLD.







Except PLD.

[Rambus]

To say that BRD is less useful inside of Abyssea is just silly... I've seen Ulhuadshi- along with dozens of other NMs that cast -ja or -ga IV magic, or things such as Gates of hades- lay down a full abyssite of merit MNK in one spell (Yes, Ulhuadshi can do 3.2k+ Stoneja under 10% HP with barstonra on) With carols, this makes all such NMs as dangerous as a lolibri in wajaom woodlands. BRD will take the headache out of EVERY SINGLE NM INSIDE ABYSSEA aside from Rani, Shinryu, and debatably Azdaja and Apademak

Not to mention there is absolutely no way to cap haste without a BRD, and in a DD party giving that much haste will out perform a 4th of 5th DD (assuming you have a WHM in the party) by far, depending on jobs/gear.

If you have 2 brds and are cycling them out, not that you would need to, you could probably be capping attack without berserk on several relevent NMs in scars/visions.

Corsair too would out perform a 4th or 5th DD in a party with NIN MNK THF DNC, because blitzer's roll is coolbeans on non-2handers. Samurai roll also has its place if it can knock a 2hander up a xhit. 4hit Ukon w/o sam in party (roll 11) Can you hear me?

For the other jobs that are debatably useless inside abyssea- DRK/WAR can do everything war can (Assuming you have a pitchfork from halloween) proc wise and more for slashing blue procs. Capped gear haste means faster stuns along with weapon bash for more stun capabilities in dangerous situations. Torcleaver is a force to be reckoned with too.
The point here is that most jobs if played well have a use, except PLD. If you enjoy playing it, go for it. Except PLD.



Except PLD.

I disgree with those spells helping that much, if you have a good whm with bar merits and bar spell set ( enhacing gear/ +2 gear for bonus) stuff like that is a joke.

I do not know that NM in question but I did this ifirt thing that liked to do 3k+ damage to everyone on 2 hr move, having a good bar set whm made the damage laughable, I would rather have a good bar set whm then an average one + carols.

bard is less usful inside abyssea vs out. I am sure there is a few fights where march is a godsend but i am sure the number of those fights is few. That statement alone supports why bard is less usful in abyssea then out.

drk/war has impusle drive? what exactly does a drk/war get for procs vs war/sam? and if you agre event item i think a war/sam can do GKT procs?

and drk/war is pretty lol.. it is paper! war/sam will live longer and do more damage.

[Leonlionheart]

I disgree with those spells helping that much, if you have a good whm with bar merits and bar spell set ( enhacing gear/ +2 gear for bonus) stuff like that is a joke.

I do not know that NM in question but I did this ifirt thing that liked to do 3k+ damage to everyone on 2 hr move, having a good bar set whm made the damage laughable, I would rather have a good bar set whm then an average one + carols.

bard is less usful inside abyssea vs out. I am sure there is a few fights where march is a godsend but i am sure the number of those fights is few

They do help that much, plus BRD w/ apoc has freedom to die constantly when going up with bar spells while it can lead to failure if Orthrus (or any of those big magical AoE damage NMs) decides to blow your shit away while your WHM is up there diddling with barfira.

Also, BRD's haste is 20%, 24~28% with the best gear. Probably 30%+ with Gjallarhorn. with 4 WARs that's 80% pure dps boost minimum. 90% with af3+2 brd hands. Frequency of WS increases that dps by HUGE amounts. /end discussion.

[Flunklesnarkin]

No job is completely useless...

Id have to say pld has the least utility of all the jobs in abyssea...

which doesn't mean it still can't get shit done.. I've seen plenty of pld's soloing NM's in abyssea lol

Pup is pretty low in utility as well.. but they can solo stuff pretty well also.

[Rambus]

They do help that much, plus BRD w/ apoc has freedom to die constantly when going up with bar spells while it can lead to failure if Orthrus (or any of those big magical AoE damage NMs) decides to blow your shit away while your WHM is up there diddling with barfira.

Also, BRD's haste is 20%, 24~28% with the best gear. Probably 30%+ with Gjallarhorn. with 4 WARs that's 80% pure dps boost minimum. 90% with af3+2 brd hands. Frequency of WS increases that dps by HUGE amounts. /end discussion.

kinda missed the point but ok... ( i was editing my post care to comment what I said about procs? i am not an abyssea expert, like all the facts out there)

anyways back to why I think you missed my point, anything can DD, you are more pressed for procs over anything. if you can afforded someone to go brd go for it, but it is not high on the list. I do understand no one is going to have the perfect setup all the time but sometimes you have to cut out some jobs because person y has a job person x has b job so on.

bard can be useful sometimes, saying otherwise is narrow-minded but how useful is the question? Remember abyssea is more about who procs what and a blm/brd can cover that.

Outside abyssea you always wanted a brd it was a big boost at 75 SV rotations and so on. the only time i seen a SV rotation after cap was on AV, so yeah brd is less useful now.

Being less useful does not mean useless though.

the point i was making on 4 war and brd vs 5 war was more a common mob comment. you can almost oneshot mobs on ws (sometimes oneshotting depending on ws/mob) so brd does not matter as much as it used to.

No job is completely useless...

Id have to say pld has the least utility of all the jobs in abyssea...

which doesn't mean it still can't get shit done.. I've seen plenty of pld's soloing NM's in abyssea lol

Pup is pretty low in utility as well.. but they can solo stuff pretty well also.

what does soloing mob have to do with usefulness? abyssea is more about pocing then anything -.-
what was pld subing and weapon anyway?

[Greatguardian]

Since when can Stonega IV do 3.2k+ damage? Does the melee not have shell OR an MDT set?

If so, fix that first. Carols later.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Well it is an opinion thread...

I guess i just interpreted the question of usefulness in abyssea to mean doing anything in abyssea...

not just usefulness in a party..


soloing isn't ideal by any means.. but it can be useful to be able to go out and kill NM's or farm up seals / items when others can't be bothered to help ;o

[Rambus]

Well it is an opinion thread...

I guess i just interpreted the question of usefulness in abyssea to mean doing anything in abyssea...

not just usefulness in a party..


soloing isn't ideal by any means.. but it can be useful to be able to go out and kill NM's or farm up seals / items when others can't be bothered to help ;o

soloing does not help if you can't proc.

the only thing that should be "soloing" is nin/pld


Since when can Stonega IV do 3.2k+ damage? Does the melee not have shell OR an MDT set?

If so, fix that first. Carols later.

yeah I do (and did) question that, I am not an expert on NMs but I do know how useful a good bar set whm is and how big a difference it can make over a WHM that does not care to have such a set.

[Leonlionheart]

Its true that the minimum people needed is lower and BRD isn't 'needed' as much. But you need to factor in time it takes to kill/success rate you have with the minimum people needed. For instance building a kannagi (or Almace for that matter) up to 85 is 100% soloable by NIN, but the NIN would likely die often against Sobek, seeing as Sobek can 1hit you at 75% or lower HP.

Minimal amount of people needed =/= most efficient and if you are going out to seal farm with just your dd, healer, and a BLM you will have less success than blm/brd and blu/nin for proccing yellow overall, since you will be scrambling to retry BLM to see if you missed anything, making the fight longer.
Same for anything where you are missing x proc, because you will have to retry the procs you do have and that will take longer.

Also in general play, most people don't spend their time after being capped fighting normal mobs, but rather KI NMs such as Minhocao, Adze, or Tunga (as these are the only real time sinks in abyssea) (the time spawn NMs for the Ukon/Twash line of empyrean weapons 85). A BRD not only can cure a NIN and WAR alone, but also increases the speed at which you proc red (faster TP from marches) and kill speed. Tunga however would require a bit more, but that's just one of those "Situational shit is situational" areas.

[Leonlionheart]

Since when can Stonega IV do 3.2k+ damage? Does the melee not have shell OR an MDT set?

If so, fix that first. Carols later.

It was with merited Shellra V, no MDT set. Ulhuadshi had 10% HP, popped out a Stoneja for 3.2k on a MNK when the rest of the fight had been pretty docile.

[Rambus]

Minimal amount of people needed =/= most efficient and if you are going out to seal farm with just your dd, healer, and a BLM you will have less success than blm/brd and blu/nin for proccing yellow overall, since you will be scrambling to retry BLM to see if you missed anything, making the fight longer.
Same for anything where you are missing x proc, because you will have to retry the procs you do have and that will take longer.


I disagree with that, if you have more then 4 people then you have more people after 1 seal so the overall event can take longer, I thought the standered for seal NMs was 4 people and that useally consists of thf or mnk, whm, blm and brd or blu

I did NIN and me BLM before as well (just 2 people). I got a lot of seals so that was most efficient for me. ( NIN friend just wanted a few things, they also had emp 85 katana though) friend was mostly helping me and i am very happy for it.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Rambus won't stop posting until he has proven all of your opinions wrong...

he is the arbiter of right and wrong ;p

[Rambus]

Rambus won't stop posting until he has proven all of your opinions wrong...

he is the arbiter of right and wrong ;p

What am I wrong on? I do not care about such things.

if he thinks BRD is just as useful in abyssea then at 75... well.. i would find that wrong i guess.

If i cared about proving everything wrong I would go line by line in his posts, I do not care to do that.

I have said a while ago in SOME fights in abyssea bard can be a godsend, but that is the thing, some, was not like before.

[Leonlionheart]

I disagree with that, if you have more then 4 people then you have more people after 1 seal so the overall event can take longer, I thought the standered for seal NMs was 4 people and that useally consists of thf or mnk, whm, blm and brd or blu

I did NIN and me BLM before as well (just 2 people). I got a lot of seals so that was most efficient for me. ( NIN friend just wanted a few things, they also had emp 85 katana though) friend was mostly helping me and i am very happy for it.

Seal farm is incredibly easy and I generally get most of my seals from random crap NMs for KI during ls events... even if you are farming seals for every single job (which would be ridiculous) you'll generally spend more time doing the +2 version anyway.

I'm talking about the Abyssea activities that may take something that resembles effort- KI farm.

If your FFXI abyssea experience is limited only to farming seals, then you're right 4 ppl, THF/NIN, WHM/SCH (or RDM, as long as you have dispel, although /SCH is generally more useful in terms of curing and survival), BLM/BRD and a BLU is ideal. This setup is trash for almost anything else.

[MarkovChain]

Inside abyssea it is all about procing, easy lowman farm only cares about yellow for farming.
Just to be clear I never claim brd is any useful inside abyssea, but saying they are useless because because of yellow proc is quite dumb. The only reason to bring a brd is to double killing speed through double march which means you must kill a lot of mobs in the first place. If you camp a mob that has 15' respwan well /facepalm and there is no better melee than another (lol blu who cares about one line of spells when mobs have 15' respawn and a non zero chance to drop).







while farming for KI you want war or nin/pld, a nin/pld has the capacity to proc 10/13 reds.


How is that any where close to efficient ? Do you have any idea how long farming some pops are ? 13/13 or bust. 100% chance of proc'ing beats anything and is the only way to go when at least duoing/trioning. If all the ws you brought missed then warp and change to one of the fail job's ws that you missed (probably drk - sam). And no, if you don't do it wrong you don't care about light. I've been in abyssea for a few weeks and 60 stones are sitting on the npc.






buff jobs do not do much because of atma, some jobs would benift from the extra atttack or haste, mages dont really need refersh support but you can use buffs to pad damage for them.

So much wrong in here. COR was already useless out of abyssea at 75 because dia3 and generic attack food put you nearly at cap. Abyssea only slightly confirmed this. As for brd I'm sorry but double march is about as much damage as Gnarled horn+razed ruins. It's just that you are starting to realize how much having an extra spot in your party is not productive most of the time, just like at 75, and that duo or trio is better, this is nothing abyssea-specific.



a RDM is almost useless in abyssea because cure IV, same with SCH.

Probably because you consider RDM a healer ? It never was and whm has always been superior. RDM is great for addle/phalanx2/debuffs (very usefull on anything casting magic as you are eating damage until !! procs). RDMs can probably change to blm for yellow procs at times or proc various ws if needed, they are also likely to have whm leveled, they are unbeatable for cleave farming etc ...





one thing with bringing a support job like brd is that they have to boost 4 people enough to outdo 5 people. in abyssea
most of the time the 5 wars would do more damage esp when farming normal mobs or FC aoe farming.

That's funny. Who cleaves with 5 wars and what do you cleave, I'm interested.




PLD cannot tank in abyssea for the most part without emp weapons. you need to deal damage to keep hate, that simple. It is possible for other jobs to get to the MDT cap if needed, max shell V helps..

You must be new to FFXI. PLD sucked on about anything.

[Greatguardian]

Pchan has officially trolled the hell out of this thread for the past 4 pages. Sparking a debate on how useful Bard is? Really?

Guys. It's Pchan.

Seriously.

Pchan.

Let that sink in a moment.

[Rambus]

Seal farm is incredibly easy and I generally get most of my seals from random crap NMs for KI during ls events... even if you are farming seals for every single job (which would be ridiculous) you'll generally spend more time doing the +2 version anyway.

I'm talking about the Abyssea activities that may take something that resembles effort- KI farm.

If your FFXI abyssea experience is limited only to farming seals, then you're right 4 ppl, THF/NIN, WHM/SCH (or RDM, as long as you have dispel, although /SCH is generally more useful in terms of curing and survival), BLM/BRD and a BLU is ideal. This setup is trash for almost anything else.

I killed shinru and have like 8 +2 items, I just have a poor memeory of mob names. (please do not take this the wrong way in thinking I am trying to say I am better cuz I have X gear, I am only trying to explain and show I have some experence) I was only stating some aspects where bard is not needed at all. if such a case exists ( you are getting something done) then bard is less useful then it once was.

I stated several times I know bard can be useful but I do find it strange making a claim to bard's usefullness with carol spells. that sitatuion are you fighting a mob that only casts one element? did the said whm have a good bar set as /sch? most dont.

I fought NMs where i can say "yeah we did not need a bard" but i cannot really ramble off a list because I am poor with names.


Pchan has officially trolled the hell out of this thread for the past 4 pages. Sparking a debate on how useful Bard is? Really?

Guys. It's Pchan.

Seriously.

Pchan.

Let that sink in a moment.

what is that?

[Leonlionheart]

Probably because you consider RDM a healer ? It never was and whm has always been superior. RDM is great for addle/phalanx2/debuffs (very usefull on anything casting magic as you are eating damage until !! procs). RDMs can probably change to blm for yellow procs at times or proc various ws if needed, they are also likely to have whm leveled, they are unbeatable for cleave farming etc ...

RDM still less useful than filling that spot with a BRD considering addle/phalanx2/debuffs are generally useless when MNK can counter tank everything and carols/bar will reduce all magical damage to much much less threatening. RDM is better if your using a THF though, since -ga's will probably wipe their HP completely without a good MDT set.

[Leonlionheart]

I killed shinru and have like 8 +2 items, I just have a poor memeory of mob names. (please do not take this the wrong way in thinking I am trying to say I am better cuz I have X gear, I am only trying to explain and show I have some experence) I was only stating some aspects where bard is not needed at all. if such a case exists ( you are getting something done) then bard is less useful then it once was.

I stated several times I know bard can be useful but I do find it strange making a claim to bard's usefullness with carol spells. that sitatuion are you fighting a mob that only casts one element? did the said whm have a good bar set as /sch? most dont.

I fought NMs where i can say "yeah we did not need a bard" but i cannot really ramble off a list because I am poor with names.

No, BRD is not as useful as it was at 75, but it was one of the only jobs you absolutely had to have- along with rdm and whm, because Refresh was such a necessity and it's not now.

But the power of March shouldn't go unrecognized, and its just as useful, if not more useful now than it was before.

[Rambus]

RDM still less useful than filling that spot with a BRD considering addle/phalanx2/debuffs are generally useless when MNK can counter tank everything and carols/bar will reduce all magical damage to much much less threatening. RDM is better if your using a THF though, since -ga's will probably wipe their HP completely without a good MDT set.

THAT i will agree on, hell SCH can do phalanx better or even make rdm aoe phalanx , phalanx II is pretty useless

[Greatguardian]

what is that?

Pchan, aka Pimpchan on Leviathan. He posts here under MarkovChain. The majority of the endgame community has learned not to bother listening to a word he says. This is the only person I know of in the history of BG forums to be banned by popular request. Seriously, I cannot possibly explain how bad an idea it is to respond seriously to Pchan. You can try it if you want, but you'll just regret it later.

[Rambus]

No, BRD is not as useful as it was at 75, but it was one of the only jobs you absolutely had to have- along with rdm and whm, because Refresh was such a necessity and it's not now.

But the power of March shouldn't go unrecognized, and its just as useful, if not more useful now than it was before.

I think I agree on this.. I can't tell I feel like this:
8:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QOya9-lwQk&feature=related

[Rambus]

Pchan, aka Pimpchan on Leviathan. He posts here under MarkovChain. The majority of the endgame community has learned not to bother listening to a word he says. This is the only person I know of in the history of BG forums to be banned by popular request. Seriously, I cannot possibly explain how bad an idea it is to respond seriously to Pchan. You can try it if you want, but you'll just regret it later.

I wish I could..


Just to be clear I never claim brd is any useful inside abyssea, but saying they are useless because because of yellow proc is quite dumb. The only reason to bring a brd is to double killing speed through double march which means you must kill a lot of mobs in the first place. If you camp a mob that has 15' respwan well /facepalm and there is no better melee than another (lol blu who cares about one line of spells when mobs have 15' respawn and a non zero chance to drop).

That alone leaves me speechless, I do not know how to replay to that.

[Kagato]

Based on whats said, I can agree now on RDM not being as useful as I originally thought

[svengalis]

WHM, MNK, BLM, NIN, BLU BRD(maybe) and THF are the only jobs needed in Abyssea, such a shame.

[Greatguardian]

WHM, MNK, BLM, NIN, BLU BRD(maybe) and THF are the only jobs needed in Abyssea, such a shame.

Forgot WAR, but compared to RDM/BRD/SAM being able to kill anything before Abyssea it's really an improvement. Other jobs are not as much dead weight as DDs as they used to be either, the only difference is now we could care less about adding damage as everything dies in 2 minutes anyways.

[MarkovChain]

RDM still less useful than filling that spot with a BRD considering addle/phalanx2/debuffs are generally useless when MNK can counter tank everything and carols/bar will reduce all magical damage to much much less threatening. RDM is better if your using a THF though, since -ga's will probably wipe their HP completely without a good MDT set.

addle is useless but carol is useful, I don't get it. And no you don't "counter tank" anything, the times where you actually counter tank anything are small seeing as you spent 090% of your time procing doh. An when procing you don't counter because you don't want to kill it, simple.

[Leonlionheart]

addle is useless but carol is useful, I don't get it. And no you don't "counter tank" anything, the times where you actually counter tank anything are small seeing as you spent 090% of your time procing doh. An when procing you don't counter because you don't want to kill it, simple.

Wut. You sound so dumb right now.

[Bubeeky]

Obviously whm is the only job that ppl should level, because WHM > all other jobs :)
WHM FOREVAH!

PS. this is a complete joke, so before u burn me for it, LAFF AS BOO COMMANDZ! :)

[Andylynn]

Tier 1 importance - MNK WAR NIN BLU BLM WHM
Covers most, if not all elemental triggers, blunt procs, red triggers, and basic party roles of DD, tank, support, etc.

Tier 2 importance - THF DNC BRD
Offers Auxiliary support, and can fufill tank or DD if needed to.

Tier 3 - (Anything with a crit ws that can DD for exp group)

Tier 4 -not important at all- PLD SAM DRK RDM
These guys need the buffs badly, or at least something to make them fufill another role while maintaining their job identity.

And I disagree with OP, WAR and DRG compete for top DD spot, but that is rather irrelevant.

[Hoshi]

BRD is most assuredly not useless in abyssea. First and foremost march. I'm astounded by the number of people who don't seem to think reaching haste cap is useful. Carol and even scherzo have their uses on some fights. Mazurka is VERY nice considering how much traveling you do in abyssea. I think the thing that's NICEST about bard in abyssea is finale though. The number of mobs that spam absorbga and need to be rapidly dispelled and/or resist dark based dispel is rather significant.

In terms of jobs we always bring for anything less lol than seal farming: WHM MNK NIN BRD BLU BLM WAR THF. If we have more than enough people we usually bring a COR for the tank party. I realize their buffs vary with roll but they have some great buffs: mdb, eva, fast-cast, store-TP, regain for idling (or helping a tank mage get tp), bolters roll.

As far as other jobs go... we usually have a SAM in the ally since they have a few procs. We sometimes bring DNC but they're only useful for time extensions and trash mobs since they're not the tank and they add no procs to our ally (we minimize TP fed to NMs until after red has been triggered). RDM sometimes gets a spot in ally but so often we're fighting mobs that are highly resistant to slow and paralyze. SMN gets a spot in ally if we're planning to blm burn trash mobs (yay perfect defense). We might bring a SCH from time to time but it's very rare. RNG, DRK, DRG, BST, PUP, lolPLD don't get to come to abyssea as they add nothing... although at least DRK and DRG could have useful atmas if they wanted to come... atmas for RNG suck.

[Mrbeansman]

You people are so misguided PLD is a useless job everywhere not just in abyssea.

[Andevom]

I'm a Lv. 90 MNK and I'm still trying to figure out how MNK is this supreme tank job.

Okay, so I'm a little nervous about tanking because I feel like I'm going to screw it up majorly. No one's really explained to me why we're so much better at it. Is it the gear? Is it only with /NIN? Is it massive HP and VIT?

Also, to quote the OP


Even Bard-specific songs to trigger weaknesses can be gotten by anyone with a Bard subjob.

Yeaah, but with subjob skills, landing the songs can be a real bear.

[Bubeeky]

but plds are shiny! that should count for something!

Tbh, I think all the jobs have their uses...I for one have yet to have an Aby pt with a brd...but that doesn't make them useless :) on the other hand, I've got a couple friends that are pld and drk and have been invaluable to my success sometimes when duoing or trioing, so I can't say that any jobs are completely useless, especially when someone put work into them.

[Andylynn]

I'm a Lv. 90 MNK and I'm still trying to figure out how MNK is this supreme tank job.

Okay, so I'm a little nervous about tanking because I feel like I'm going to screw it up majorly. No one's really explained to me why we're so much better at it. Is it the gear? Is it only with /NIN? Is it massive HP and VIT?

Also, to quote the OP



Yeaah, but with subjob skills, landing the songs can be a real bear.
Wear something like Gnarled Horn, Ebon Hoof/Impenetrable Tower, and Razed Ruins. You'll have ridiculous HP, Counter, and decent damage output, it's a lazy mode tank, while you auto attack, you can pretty much AFK, while the healer throws an occasional cure VI to top you right off.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I almost want to play pld now.. so i can be a hipster :<

[Alhanelem]

Wishful thinking
Not really. I'm not going to say every job is 100% equal, but every job is certainly capable of being in a successful group.

At any rate, if you want to tier it out, SAM needs to be up there in the top.


And I disagree with OP, WAR and DRG compete for top DD spot, but that is rather irrelevant. You've obv. never seen a victory smite PUP in full DD mode. :p

That said, I'm just happy PUP and DRG aren't being crapped on. :p

[Didgist]

OP I agree, however I feel FFXI has always been about niche playing.

PLD is currently the best box burner on the market. Run around in Fear Dearga by yourself. RDM can do this too, but RDM isn't going to go tank Orthrus or an Ironclad by itself afterwards either (chill out Avestas). At least not as well as a PLD can.

RNG I have no idea about. Wildfire is disgusting but it seems COR has a lot more MAB options due to Quick Draw. Sounds a lot like why people don't like FFXIV. You can't autoshoot, and that's all you really do, so I quit.

COR has Wildfire. Just wow. See above.

BRD uhh, it's nice to have elemental resists that can break 300 with brd+whm+atma, but not really needed. Both Itza and Orhtrus are a joke once you break 200.

DRK can stun. I know mages can, but whm has to give up sch sub to gain access to stun. I just WAR/DRK if a WS has the potential to knock me out. DRK also gets a considerable amount of reds, it's kind of early but DRK has all the same reds as WAR right? Event Pitchfork etc.

As was stated, it used to be SAM/RDM/BRD only and now people have the option to play other jobs they like productively.

[Mrbeansman]

PLD is currently the best box burner on the market. Run around in Fear Dearga by yourself. RDM can do this too, but RDM isn't going to go tank Orthrus or an Ironclad by itself afterwards either (chill out Avestas). At least not as well as a PLD can.


Useless job is useless did you even read my post?

[Alhanelem]

PLD is not useless. Any intelligent competent person can tank just fine on PLD.

[Mrbeansman]

PLD is not useless. Any intelligent competent person can tank just fine on PLD.

Your right PLD can tank just fine when playing with useless gimp dds.

[Karumac]

The blue proc argument isn't that great, since you can just try to plan better and go during blunt period.

NMs are not going to wait around to pop during Blunt. Timed NMs pop when they want and if you're competing, you grab it when you can, and not always during blunt.

[Andylynn]

You're* right PLD can tank just fine when playing with DDs not being fools and feeding the boss TP.
Fixed that for you.

[Sparthos]

PLD is not useless. Any intelligent competent person can tank just fine on PLD.

Please share your wisdom of how PLD tanks "just fine" when any DD using correct atmas can probably take hate off you with a single WS. That's right, the job of ridicule - PUP - can probably grab hate off a PLD effortlessly.

If you like PLD, thats great. Diehard PLDs have Almace/Ochain combos to work towards but until you get Chant du Cygne, you won't be holding any hate without telling DDs to get off while you Flash/CureIV yourself nowhere.

[Cream_Soda]

Not really. I'm not going to say every job is 100% equal, but every job is certainly capable of being in a successful group.

At any rate, if you want to tier it out, SAM needs to be up there in the top.

You've obv. never seen a victory smite PUP in full DD mode. :p

That said, I'm just happy PUP and DRG aren't being crapped on. :p
Sure, every job an be in a successful group.

Take a cookie cutter set up. Let's say you have nin blm whm blu for lowmanning a NM. If they win as is, why would adding another job make them lose? So yea, they can be successful, but the point is, remove one of the jobs in the group, replace that job w/ [insert job here], can they still be as successful? If not, they're dead weight.

Just because they can be in a successful group doesn't mean they have any worthwhile contribution to that success

As far as your sam comment, Massamune sam is mid tier, any other weapon, they're pretty low class right now. They're no where near the top.

[Luvbunny]

Agree on PLD, that job need some adjustment badly, so is DRK. SMN is fine, could use a few tweaks, but it's one of the few jobs that is actually very useful when most of your party members are being knocked off one by one. 4 smn in party can hold the NM while everyone unweakened. RDM is not as useless, but not as useful as WHM for sure. SCH has a few spells and abilities that can be good, but yes, not as useful as a BLM. Both SCH and RDM could use Cure V.

[wish12oz]

Corsair/Bard - These support jobs just don't stand out in Abyssea at all. Outside of Abyssea, sure. They're fine, but inside (where just about 90% of the game is now) they aren't needed as much thanks to the Atmas and stat increases. Even Bard-specific songs to trigger weaknesses can be gotten by anyone with a Bard subjob.



[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]
Double march easily doubles the damage output of all melees, which means killing stuff in half the time it would otherwise take, in an environment where time matters because you have a set limit to it, this is an amazing job to have around, because most, if not all, of your damage will be coming from melees. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Sparthos]

Agree on PLD, that job need some adjustment badly, so is DRK. SMN is fine, could use a few tweaks, but it's one of the few jobs that is actually very useful when most of your party members are being knocked off one by one. 4 smn in party can hold the NM while everyone unweakened. RDM is not as useless, but not as useful as WHM for sure. SCH has a few spells and abilities that can be good, but yes, not as useful as a BLM. Both SCH and RDM could use Cure V.

The game is going back outside Abyssea so SCH or RDM getting Cure V would immediately undercut any progress WHM has made in the last year. Cure IV is not terrible outside Abyssea and Cure VI is a huge mp sink on WHM so once again the job will be relying on Cure V to make it the top-tier healer.

If SE releases new content, RDM and SCH will naturally become useful again when things like debuffs and MP conservation actually matter. The same idea goes for jobs like BRD and COR. BRD has only lost ground because you don't need one to win. Would I turn down double march? No. Do I need the 2march to win the battle? No.

DRK has always been considered a mid-tier DD and post-Abyssea will likely see it remain there. Things like Torcleaver/Quietus will do better outside the battlegrounds of critfests.

[Rambus]

people think PLD can be useful?

I seen a seal group once be PLD, BLM,WHM, BRD.

guess how it went....

hint:


Sure, every job an be in a successful group.

Take a cookie cutter set up. Let's say you have nin blm whm blu for lowmanning a NM. If they win as is, why would adding another job make them lose? So yea, they can be successful, but the point is, remove one of the jobs in the group, replace that job w/ [insert job here], can they still be as successful? If not, they're dead weight.

[Didgist]

You use PLD in dynamis?
You do dynamis?
You use PLD?
You play FFXI?

[Cream_Soda]

That was funny a year+ ago!

[Didgist]

If you can't succeed in FFXI on any job than you should play something else or at least stop trying to be an authority on it.

[Cream_Soda]

No reason to go out of your way to do things inefficiently.

None whatsoever.

[Ramsos]

soloing does not help if you can't proc.

the only thing that should be "soloing" is nin/pld .

I am confused here, why would you ever sub pld on nin for any reason? I'm no nin but /dnc and even /whm seem like much better soloing sub options for nin than /pld. Wouldnt /war have the same procs as pld while actually adding something useful (zerk, DA, etc.). What does /pld even add to nin, I have never heard of anyone ever using this sub for nin.

[Cream_Soda]

English isn't his first language. If I'm not mistaken, I think he meant nin/pld as in nin, pld as separate jobs for soloing.

[Ramsos]

English isn't his first language. If I'm not mistaken, I think he meant nin/pld as in nin, pld as separate jobs for soloing.

If this is true, I would love to hear his explanation on how pld solos better than blu/dnc/thf/drg/bst/rdm/blm/pup

[Rambus]

You use PLD in dynamis?
You do dynamis?
You use PLD?
You play FFXI?

at 90? I would not bring a PLD to dynamis, they do thier job for like 2 seconds.... flash and voke take one hit and thats it.

nin/pld gets 10/13 red, I was poking fun on "worthwhile soloing" I/E you need red on NMs. I did mean nin/pld as the job combination, not nin or pld.

you need some staff gear or staff merits but yeah nin can get 10 out of 13 red
* i think extra staff still was the only one requred*
it is for to get enough skill for sunburst

nin cant do freezebite, Shadow of Death, I can't remember the 3rd

[MarkovChain]

at 90? I would not bring a PLD to dynamis, they do thier job for like 2 seconds.... flash and voke take one hit and thats it.

Like at 75 which is what he meant, you're slow. You didn't get the "old joke" comment.

[Mrbeansman]

Fixed that for you.

I find it sad people still think this way in 2011.

[Rambus]

I find it sad people still think this way in 2011.

What do you mean? the point is true. I clicked the quote.

What i understnad is that DDs have to hold back a lot or be super gimp to let a PLD tank witch is true.

Maybe if PLD had emp weapons it may not be true, i have no idea. The only time i see PLD in abyssea is in abyssea exp doing really low damage or this comment:



people think PLD can be useful?

I seen a seal group once be PLD, BLM,WHM, BRD.

guess how it went....

hint:


Sure, every job an be in a successful group.

Take a cookie cutter set up. Let's say you have nin blm whm blu for lowmanning a NM. If they win as is, why would adding another job make them lose? So yea, they can be successful, but the point is, remove one of the jobs in the group, replace that job w/ [insert job here], can they still be as successful? If not, they're dead weight.

[Lexin]

Okay this thread explains why I don't play anymore. Because only 2 jobs I enjoy playing and have at a decent level are PLD and DRK. My account is still active but only played the same day the servers came back online but for only an hour and before the servers I got on did my limit break got DRK to 86 and just don't feel like playing.

I agree that both jobs are just horrible unless you have the best gear (which I don't hell I don't even have a single atma). I try to have fun but other players wont accept people in there Linkshell/Parties unless you are well geared.

This game has lost it's touch it use to have back in it's early years.

[Rambus]

Okay this thread explains why I don't play anymore. Because only 2 jobs I enjoy playing and have at a decent level are PLD and DRK. My account is still active but only played the same day the servers came back online but for only an hour and before the servers I got on did my limit break got DRK to 86 and just don't feel like playing.

I agree that both jobs are just horrible unless you have the best gear (which I don't hell I don't even have a single atma). I try to have fun but other players wont accept people in there Linkshell/Parties unless you are well geared.

This game has lost it's touch it use to have back in it's early years.

it is not the people it is the game...

like my exmaple for seal farming you get 4 people, one for each seal.

PLD, BLM, WHM, BLU or brd does not cut it, I seen someoen actally try that on a seal mob and they left in failure in trying to kill the mob

MNK or THF, BLM WHM , BLU gets the job done.

hmm now thinking about it maybe I do not completely understand what you mean by lost tuch, DRK for a very long time was only useful for zergs and even back in the day was on the low end of being wanted. DRK had to resort to DRK/THF for spinning slash to have some type of purpose. I think only drg had a worse stigma.

how was it for you back in the day for DRK? did you fit in that GS requre and such?

[Lexin]

it is not the people it is the game...

like my exmaple for seal farming you get 4 people, one for each seal.

PLD, BLM, WHM, BLU or brd does not cut it, I seen someoen actally try that on a seal mob and they left in failure in trying to kill the mob

MNK or THF, BLM WHM , BLU gets the job done.

hmm now thinking about it maybe I do not completely understand what you mean by lost tuch, DRK for a very long time was only useful for zergs and even back in the day was on the low end of being wanted. DRK had to resort to DRK/THF for spinning slash to have some type of purpose. I think only drg had a worse stigma.

how was it for you back in the day for DRK? did you fit in that GS requre and such?

Getting a party with DRK was good till 60 but even then still got parties I never used a GS and my GS skill can tell you that. Once ToAU was released DRK has been on the back burner since and DRG and SAM have been on the front. Now I don't know much about Abyssea since I really have not played since it's release.

Again I only have DRK and PLD not geared and if I were to go for my Emp armor I would be forced to grind fame/quests for a slight chance of getting my seals. But the way I see it what is even the point of doing that if my jobs are well garbage in Abyssea?

Oh and it's always been the players who determine everything... Because I can't do a certain thing with my job I'm forced to sit out?

[Glamdring]

You might wanna rethink the "useless rng" eval. As groups get more done in Abyssea I'm seeing more people targeting gear drops via blue !! procs. Unless you always wait to be out of the piercing time you will need that rng to proc the ranged skills. In addition, they can do good numbers anyway, and come in handy when you want to keep the damage up on mobs you stay away from to avoid AoE. And there were always critters weak to piercing damage; they're just as weak IN Aby as out so rng can work... if you have a tank with voke and maybe a TA happy thief using conspirator and the like as an example?

Cor seems to be the most shafted job. They can put up good numbers still, but since their rolls are largely superceded by atma people THINK they are useless. Of course, if you get a group intelligent enough to use the cor (or bard) buffs so they can use Atma to boost something else they are right back in the mix. Unfortunately, Atma is chosen with personal uberness, not party efficiency in mind by most players so Cor will have to build their own parties for the most part.

Paladin... noone bothers with primative concepts like hate control anymore (don't believe me? ask a sleeper), so blood tanking is just not happening in Abyssea and good luck getting anyone to go elsewhere where it still works just fine. I love seeing dead monks too stupid to realize that they are not on a meth/roids cocktail outside Aby-as long as they aren't in my party anyway. There's like 40 threads asking for pld to be made useful again so I'll leave it at that.

Bard, VERY useful if you know what you are doing. Scherzo is godly and Mambo suddenly got useful now that people just evasion tank. Ballad not so much with every mage using refresh atmas. Carols-coupled with a Barspell-make many AoE spamming NMs almost a joke. Finale and Lullaby are both extremely potent. Double March in XP parties is very handy too, since it let's melees concentrate on attack gear (especially coupled with dancers using Haste Samba).

Dark, solid DD, just needs a decent haster. Also useful for !! procs-scythe seems to come up alot, and Dark spells seem to be something Dark can cast most of the time.

Scholar-useful, can take the place of either a blm or whm, just not AS good as either in their primary role. A decent substitute for rdm as well.

Dragoon, handy for piercing procs, wyvern breath for healing or damage, actually solo pretty well if the player has the reflexes to keep their lizard alive. Screwed once they lose it tho.

Pup-just awesome DD. Auto CAN land yellow procs, but it's a matter of luck (too bad Discernment doesn't extend to Autos). There is an issue tho' with the weakness detection where it may simply refuse to cast. The De/Activate trick is awesome tho' for keeping up the damage/healing. The player? if they are well equipped can do decent DD in their own right, but stick with a monk if you want the raw HTH numbers.

Summoner-like the rest of the pet jobs is useful for alot of NMs where you want players to stay off except when proccing !!. If you've farmed to the point of ISL chests dropping they are godly with Astral Flow burns, especially in XP parties. Good puller too.

Beast-good, but expensive. Jugs can take a beating unless you have alot of -PDT gear, and reward will get a workout. My beast at least puts out the highest DPS between me and the pet you will see from any job short of using a brew. Not good if your target is one to avoid feeding TP to, and useless for any !! proc except blue, unless you've also capped scythe (options are nice) or something else. I get good use /brd landing threnodies and my finale usually sticks, too doing NMs with a pt, but solo I /dnc to survive.

Nin, blu, war are all must-haves if you want to be ready to hit multiple !! triggers. Also useful in their own rights.

Rdm, good pt member, but only mediocre for !! procs-you need blm for the full ele spell line, whm for the full Divine spell line. CS Stun is still a viable tactic. Don't expect to be picked up for Refresh much, but you can be very useful refreshing in a pt with a pld or a dark who have better things to use their Atma slots on than refresh usually. /whm you'll get some love for the -na spells.

[Rambus]

Getting a party with DRK was good till 60 but even then still got parties I never used a GS and my GS skill can tell you that. Once ToAU was released DRK has been on the back burner since and DRG and SAM have been on the front. Now I don't know much about Abyssea since I really have not played since it's release.

Again I only have DRK and PLD not geared and if I were to go for my Emp armor I would be forced to grind fame/quests for a slight chance of getting my seals. But the way I see it what is even the point of doing that if my jobs are well garbage in Abyssea?

Oh and it's always been the players who determine everything... Because I can't do a certain thing with my job I'm forced to sit out?

SE made the abyssea this way, and sadly yes unless you have a friend that will invite you as a 5th and 2 people lot on one thing ( I ran into 5 man seal partys but it is rare) but the pt was BLM, MNK, THF, WHM , BLU.

when you have a setup like MNK, BLM, WHM, BLU able to kill something vs PLD, BLM, WHM, BLU cannot ( I was doing something with LS when I saw a PLD in seal farming) they whiped and whiped. that is not the players fault for making PLD sit out because the job cannot perform, it is the game and design. A PLD cannot hold hate, not a chance in hell unless you want a 30 min to 1 hr kill, and even then a PLD takes too much damage. When you have a MNK countering and perfect counter and can get PDT on itself, PLD cannot compete. You really need emp sword or both emp sword and emp shield to warrant the notion of “lets see if so in so with emp sword and shield can do what a MNK can”

regarding rng, you want range damage? get a BLm and use enmity douse, or SCH.

bet you any money a BLM or SCH can do more damage over time due to enmity issues.

using rng would only be for blue procing

[Zumi]

SE has never been good at balancing classes and making adjustments. Shouldn't come as a shock that stuff isn't balanced right now. If they wanted to fix Paladin tanking or tanking in general they could raise the enmity cap and give paladins more moves that generate a greater amount of enmity over a melee. And actual make def and vit do something like actual damage reduction since a paladin takes as much damage if not more then like a monk or ninja, no counter, and good evasion.

[Malamasala]

It is funny how people are always so narrow minded.

A party consists of the following.

1) The current overpowered DDs.
2) Whatever job is a must have.

The only ways you'll ever be invited to parties is if you fill one of these roles. (Being a friend is a third alternative for being invited). So it isn't that PLD is bad, it is that it isn't a must have (or the best DD).

Since people are too dumb to play a video game, you can only really solve the job bias by removing 18 of the 20 jobs and leaving a melee and a healer. It is that, or deal with it.

[Hoshi]

Is it too much to ask for SE to unnerf my job, nerf every other job in the game and then stop making adjustments to the game? Because really I think that's a reasonable request. :3

[Fiarlia]

So it isn't that PLD is bad, it is that it isn't a must have (or the best DD).

Actually no, PLD is just bad.

[Alhanelem]

Your right PLD can tank just fine when playing with useless gimp dds.
No. PLD can tank just fine when playing with any intelligent, competent players. PLD can hit the hate cap just as well as anyone else can, and as long as other people stay below the hate cap, everything's peachy. It doesn't matter what job you're on, if you can't cap hate, you're screwed.



Pup-just awesome DD. Auto CAN land yellow procs, but it's a matter of luck No, not really, they can't. While I can vouch for double victory smite+light being some major kick ass as a die-hard PUP, nuking automaton will always cast the highest spell that it think will land. In most cases, you can't force it to cast a tier 3/4 spell when it thinks a tier V spell will work.

[Andylynn]

Actually no, PLD is just bad.

PLD is far from bad, it takes little to no damage at all with decent gear and atmas, it just fails miserably at keeping hate because DDs can cap theirs faster, resulting in everything they do taking aggro. It doesn't help with refresh a whm can pretty much keep any clown alive on a lower difficulty nm, resulting in anything that can handle it tanking.

[Greatguardian]

No. PLD can tank just fine when playing with any intelligent, competent players. PLD can hit the hate cap just as well as anyone else can, and as long as other poeople stay below the hate cap, everything's peachy. It doesn't matter what job you're on, if you can't cap hate, you're screwed.

Any intelligent, competent DD is going to hit the hate cap in 1 WS. No dice. Any competent PLD would do the same, but there's no way in hell any good DD should be dropping below the hate cap. Besides, MNK does better tanking than PLD anyways, Counterstance does additional damage to the mob when the MNK has hate, and it takes less damage than PLD with it up. PLD having hate is not a good thing.


PLD is far from bad, it takes little to no damage at all with decent gear and atmas, it just fails miserably at keeping hate because DDs can cap theirs faster, resulting in everything they do taking aggro. It doesn't help with refresh a whm can pretty much keep any clown alive on a lower difficulty nm, resulting in anything that can handle it tanking.

If a PLD is using a Defensive atma, they're doing it wrong. If they're idling in defensive gear, they're doing it wrong. Their gear and their atmas should not be affecting the kind of damage they take. A properly geared PLD will take less damage than a WAR, PUP, DRG, or whatever other non-defensive DD out there. A MNK who knows how to flip their JA on will take less damage than a PLD. No job should give a crap how much damage they take anyways unless their mage is complete and utter suck.

[Fiarlia]

PLD is far from bad, it takes little to no damage at all with decent gear and atmas, it just fails miserably at keeping hate because DDs can cap theirs faster, resulting in everything they do taking aggro. It doesn't help with refresh a whm can pretty much keep any clown alive on a lower difficulty nm, resulting in anything that can handle it tanking.

This is exactly why PLD is just bad. Damage mitigation is a completely null point, since MP is not an issue and other jobs can either exceed or equal the damage mitigated, albeit in different ways. On top of this, every single other job that "can tank" deals superior damage by a truckload. Why on earth would you bring a job that can mitigate damage in such a fantastic way, when there's option with equal or better mitigation that also bring a lot of damage to the table?

The only way a PLD will be able to tank is if the DD's s/he's with are either gimp or they hold back significantly, resulting in even less damage done in the same amount of time and extending the length of fights.

Yes, PLD is bad. Or if saying it that way makes you too sad/angry/angsty, then we can say that PLD isn't bad, but pretty much every other job is far better.

[Andylynn]

This is exactly why PLD is just bad. Damage mitigation is a completely null point, since MP is not an issue and other jobs can either exceed or equal the damage mitigated, albeit in different ways.
Damage mitigation is one of the things that makes MP not an issue. Only dnc and mnk have this option extreme damage mitigation, and only one of them is going to be tanking significant NMs.


On top of this, every single other job that "can tank" deals superior damage by a truckload.
It's not as if PLD is a horrendous DD; vorpal, and in some cases, CDC can offer acceptable damage dealing capability.


Why on earth would you bring a job that can mitigate damage in such a fantastic way, when there's option with equal or better mitigation that also bring a lot of damage to the table? You make it seem as if every job has this applicable mitigation and thus makes a great tank, but PDT/MDT sets dont instantly make you a pld or mnk.


The only way a PLD will be able to tank is if the DD's s/he's with are either gimp or they hold back significantly, resulting in even less damage done in the same amount of time and extending the length of fights.
When on earth do you ever have any DDs sitting there pelting on the NM at the same time as the tank when the fight is significant enough to warrant it? #1 If you are attempting to get !!, you don't want a DD hitting on the NM to begin with #2 if you found the exception to point 1, why would you want a ton of DDs feeding TP to said nm? Not every NM has an applicable red !! then zerg approach.

Pld is not as horrible as the community makes it seem. It has it rough, and we will approach a day where Abyssea isn't everything to FFXI, what will we do when the 'amazing' DDs go back to without atmas, and a brainless whm w/ cure 6 + infinite MP?

[Mrbeansman]

Damage mitigation is one of the things that makes MP not an issue. Only dnc and mnk have this option extreme damage mitigation, and only one of them is going to be tanking significant NMs.


It's not as if PLD is a horrendous DD; vorpal, and in some cases, CDC can offer acceptable damage dealing capability.

You make it seem as if every job has this applicable mitigation and thus makes a great tank, but PDT/MDT sets dont instantly make you a pld or mnk.


When on earth do you ever have any DDs sitting there pelting on the NM at the same time as the tank when the fight is significant enough to warrant it? #1 If you are attempting to get !!, you don't want a DD hitting on the NM to begin with #2 if you found the exception to point 1, why would you want a ton of DDs feeding TP to said nm? Not every NM has an applicable red !! then zerg approach.

Pld is not as horrible as the community makes it seem. It has it rough, and we will approach a day where Abyssea isn't everything to FFXI, what will we do when the 'amazing' DDs go back to without atmas, and a brainless whm w/ cure 6 + infinite MP?

Do you even know what PDT and MDT sets are?

[Andylynn]

Do you even know what PDT and MDT sets are?
Something a really good pld can cap in one piece of gear.

[svengalis]

Forgot WAR, but compared to RDM/BRD/SAM being able to kill anything before Abyssea it's really an improvement. Other jobs are not as much dead weight as DDs as they used to be either, the only difference is now we could care less about adding damage as everything dies in 2 minutes anyways.

Haha I knew I was leaving one out. How could I forget war.

[Rambus]

have you really seen PLD in abyssea?

for exp, too much

for NM farming, once, and that pt end up whiping.

I do not understand what kind of leg you are trying to stand on saying PLD is fine.

one piece of gear to cap both? uh .. yeah

anyways if a PLD had emp sword and shield i give it a chance, that be the only way though

[Mezzopiano]

Quite plainly, since when do you ever need any sort of job specifics for Abyssea? Everything in there is either too easy to bother with strategy, or can be brewed.

[Andylynn]

have you really seen PLD in abyssea?

for exp, too much

for NM farming, once, and that pt end up whiping.

I do not understand what kind of leg you are trying to stand on saying PLD is fine.

one piece of gear to cap both? uh .. yeah

anyways if a PLD had emp sword and shield i give it a chance, that be the only way though

I'm trying to get across it is not the job that is broken, but the game mechanics. Pld can cap MDT with Aegis and meritted Shell. It isn't a bad job, hate mechanics are screwed up is all.

[Rambus]

I'm trying to get across it is not the job that is broken, but the game mechanics. Pld can cap MDT with Aegis and meritted Shell. It isn't a bad job, hate mechanics are screwed up is all.

Who cares if PLD caps that.

and 90 you can walk nakked with a defending ring.

and i thought you said cap both. I know about that deadwight




Do you even know what PDT and MDT sets are?


Something a really good pld can cap in one piece of gear.

my comment is no

[Greatguardian]

Hate mechanics are fine, PLDs that are worth half a shit can cap hate fine. Not SE's fault most PLDs are not worth half a shit and try to run around in PDT/VIT swords. PLD lacks the procs and the DD potential to be a high tier job in Abyssea. It's no worse off than DRG. If anything, it's probably better off than DRG; total waste of one of the best DDs in the game when it can't proc anything.

[Andylynn]

Hate mechanics are fine
Theyre the one reason pld isn't tanking right now, they need to be revamped if the job is going to be any useful in the future.

[Alhanelem]

Any intelligent, competent DD is going to hit the hate cap in 1 WS. No dice. Then any intelligent competent DD is going to pull hate from the NIN or anyone else that might try to tank. This problem isn't exclusive to PLD.

[Greatguardian]

Then any intelligent competent DD is going to pull hate from the NIN or anyone else that might try to tank. This problem isn't exclusive to PLD.

NIN can hit the hate cap just fine, too. It's one of the best DDs in the game right now. It drops off sharply when you add a bard and Dnc to the mix, but otherwise it has no problems.

@TearValerin: Changing hate mechanics won't make PLD more viable. It will just annoy people. So what if they make Flash and Sentinel give 10,000% Enmity? WHMs just won't flash mobs any more. DDs will still have more hate than them.

Damage creates less Enmity than heals? WHM becomes the only healer worth a damn outside of Abyssea, and remains the only healer worth a damn inside Abyssea. Cure V is static Enmity, and would become the only cure worth using.

Seriously. Hate mechanics are fine where they are. Every job in the game can cap hate if they don't suck. Every job in the game can survive attacks from any NM in the game if they don't suck. Messing around with PLD's defensive mechanics and hate mechanics is not the way to make it more popular. The job's a pariah, deal with it. Not like most jobs in this game haven't had the same treatment for years. I'm a former "career PLD", but I don't give a shit that it's out of favor right now. I'll play my other jobs that do the same thing better, because I'm not afraid of getting with the times.

[Rambus]

NIN can hit the hate cap just fine, too. It's one of the best DDs in the game right now. It drops off sharply when you add a bard and Dnc to the mix, but otherwise it has no problems.

@TearValerin: Changing hate mechanics won't make PLD more viable. It will just annoy people. So what if they make Flash and Sentinel give 10,000% Enmity? WHMs just won't flash mobs any more. DDs will still have more hate than them.

Damage creates less Enmity than heals? WHM becomes the only healer worth a damn outside of Abyssea, and remains the only healer worth a damn inside Abyssea. Cure V is static Enmity, and would become the only cure worth using.

Seriously. Hate mechanics are fine where they are. Every job in the game can cap hate if they don't suck. Every job in the game can survive attacks from any NM in the game if they don't suck. Messing around with PLD's defensive mechanics and hate mechanics is not the way to make it more popular. The job's a pariah, deal with it. Not like most jobs in this game haven't had the same treatment for years. I'm a former "career PLD", but I don't give a shit that it's out of favor right now. I'll play my other jobs that do the same thing better, because I'm not afraid of getting with the times.

with or without emp ws? (nin being one of the best dd atm)

[Greatguardian]

with or without emp ws? (nin being one of the best dd atm)

Compare something with Emp WS to something with Emp WS, and something without Emp WS to something without Emp WS, and NIN will be high up on the charts in both cases. With Emp WS, and without a DNC/BRD, NIN is about even with VS MNK. NIN's biggest fatal flaw is the total delay reduction cap, as it floors the amount of Haste they can effectively use before their Dual Wield traits cut them off.

[Andylynn]

NIN can hit the hate cap just fine, too. It's one of the best DDs in the game right now. It drops off sharply when you add a bard and Dnc to the mix, but otherwise it has no problems.

@TearValerin: Changing hate mechanics won't make PLD more viable. It will just annoy people. So what if they make Flash and Sentinel give 10,000% Enmity? WHMs just won't flash mobs any more. DDs will still have more hate than them.

Damage creates less Enmity than heals? WHM becomes the only healer worth a damn outside of Abyssea, and remains the only healer worth a damn inside Abyssea. Cure V is static Enmity, and would become the only cure worth using.

Seriously. Hate mechanics are fine where they are. Every job in the game can cap hate if they don't suck. Every job in the game can survive attacks from any NM in the game if they don't suck. Messing around with PLD's defensive mechanics and hate mechanics is not the way to make it more popular. The job's a pariah, deal with it. Not like most jobs in this game haven't had the same treatment for years. I'm a former "career PLD", but I don't give a shit that it's out of favor right now. I'll play my other jobs that do the same thing better, because I'm not afraid of getting with the times.

No job should have to be given up just because of balancing issues. Someone should be able to play drk, sam, or pld etc and not have to worry about 'getting with the times.' Hate mechanics are not fine, as even though a pld can do decent damage, it's no where near enough to cap hate quickly at all. Theyre slow as snails at doing so unless pimped out. Their lousy evasion doesn't help especially when tanking pld nin, there goes even more of their cumululative emnity. Pld needs a way to quickly reach a higher cap, or no cap at all if it's going to do remotely anything near what it could do. Mechanics are broken, not the job.

[Rambus]

No job should have to be given up just because of balancing issues.

That is all i really understand, People want the easiest route, it is human nature.

yes PLD is sitting on the sidelines and it needs to be with how the game works, not only does having a PLD mean longer kills it also means you might not even kill the mob.

PLD needs emp weapons or level something else if you want gear. that is just how things are.

[Andylynn]

That is all i really understand, People want the easiest route, it is human nature.

yes PLD is sitting on the sidelines and it needs to be with how the game works, not only does having a PLD mean longer kills it also means you might not even kill the mob.

PLD needs emp weapons or level something else if you want gear. that is just how things are.

No job should need an empyrean weapon to be considered 'good' or 'useful.' I.E. Fudo, Quietus/Torcleaver, CDC.

[Rambus]

No job should need an empyrean weapon to be considered 'good' or 'useful.' I.E. Fudo, Quietus/Torcleaver, CDC.

I agree but thats how things are ..>.> why are we going back and forth on if pld can be useful in abyssea? I wached a PD do a seal farm and they wiped, thats the only time i seen PLD do anything in abyssea.

you can't be saying yeah PLD can be fine or good or cap MDT. If you do that nothing is changed, you need to tell the truth how the game is so it gets changed

[Greatguardian]

No job should have to be given up just because of balancing issues. Someone should be able to play drk, sam, or pld etc and not have to worry about 'getting with the times.' Hate mechanics are not fine, as even though a pld can do decent damage, it's no where near enough to cap hate quickly at all. Theyre slow as snails at doing so unless pimped out. Their lousy evasion doesn't help especially when tanking pld nin, there goes even more of their cumululative emnity. Pld needs a way to quickly reach a higher cap, or no cap at all if it's going to do remotely anything near what it could do. Mechanics are broken, not the job.

There's a difference between being pimped out and being epic suck at PLD. Most people don't seem to realize this. I'll put it in a nice visual format, then:


Pimped < ----|---------------------------|------------------------------------------------|--- > Suck
___________A___________________B__________________________________C

A: A pimped out Ochain/Almace PLD
B: A PLD who can cap hate easily and DD comparable to Pup/Thf/Dnc/Bst inside Abyssea
C: 95% of PLDs

Pld/Nin shouldn't be losing more CE than they gain at any point in time. There are 20 jobs in this game. They cannot all be able to do the same things with the same proficiency. Some are better than others when you are looking at a specific field of use. PLD happens to be worse than other jobs at what most people do these days. Big whoop. Contrary to popular belief, it is no job's inherent right to be "The Best".

If you want to use the best job at any given time, you adapt. If you don't give a shit about being the best, you use whatever you want. But don't go around claiming that your job is still the best, or deserves to be the best, or needs to be fixed. You're sacrificing your ability to do things the best way because you want to do things one way. That is how the world works.

[Kagato]

You lost all credibility with this comment.
Double march easily doubles the damage output of all melees, which means killing stuff in half the time it would otherwise take, in an environment where time matters because you have a set limit to it, this is an amazing job to have around, because most, if not all, of your damage will be coming from melees. Fail less please.

The fact that you jumped so quickly to say I lose ALL credibility and that I FAIL for posting an opinion where I welcomed constructive critique basically tells me you're disrespectful just because you feel like you can be.

With so much Haste being thrown around and atmas giving people strong abilities, enemies die in mere seconds of engaging them regardless of how much haste someone has.

Exp mobs die too fast to take full advantage of an extremely high amount of haste since most of the time your team is running around trying to find a monster to claim since they die so fast already. Equipment and JA haste is all that's needed for exp parties. Double march only really shines during zergs, and there are very few opportunities to do that. Enemies either die too quickly for it to matter (exp mobs) or it's just a stupid idea to Zerg (most Abyssea NMs).

If it takes longer than 10 seconds for 3-4 DDs to kill an EXP monster in abyssea with equipment and JA haste, you're fighting the wrong enemies, and only then would more haste to take advantage of zerg tactics start to stand out, but by then, you could have just been fighting something easier to kill anyway and save your alliance slots for DDs.

Now, again, I'm willing to take criticism, but doing so in the way you did was completely uncalled for. I'm not claiming I'm right. I'm only stating my opinion.

[Greatguardian]

You need 50% haste to double damage output over 0% Haste =/.

100% Haste brings your damage output to infinity.

Edit: Any DD worth a shit can 1-shot most every EXP monster in Abyssea at IT level. What do those plebes have to do with anything? Obviously you're bringing a Bard to march you during NMs.

[Rambus]

100% Haste brings your damage output to infinity.

lol
http://www.wattix.com/blog/chilligan/divide-by-zero.jpg

[Hoshi]

The fact that you jumped so quickly to say I lose ALL credibility and that I FAIL for posting an opinion where I welcomed constructive critique basically tells me you're disrespectful just because you feel like you can be.

Double march does not double damage output at all. It increases, but definitely does not double. You need 100% haste to double damage output. Also with so much Haste being thrown around and atmas giving people strong abilities, enemies die in mere seconds of engaging them regardless of how much haste someone has.

Exp mobs die too fast to take full advantage of an extremely high amount of haste since most of the time your team is running around trying to find a monster to claim since they die so fast already. Equipment and JA haste is all that's needed for exp parties. Double march only really shines during zergs, and there are very few opportunities to do that. Enemies either die too quickly for it to matter (exp mobs) or it's just a stupid idea to Zerg (most Abyssea NMs).

If it takes longer than 10 seconds for 3-4 DDs to kill an EXP monster in abyssea with equipment and JA haste, you're fighting the wrong enemies, and only then would more haste to take advantage of zerg tactics start to stand out, but by then, you could have just been fighting something easier to kill anyway and save your alliance slots for DDs.

Now, again, I'm willing to take criticism, but doing so in the way you did was completely uncalled for. I'm not claiming I'm right. I'm only stating my opinion.

Your posts make it sound like the only thing that exists in abyssea is xp. If you're tanking something that has to stay alive for the duration of discerning and proccing red, yellow, (perhaps blue) why wouldn't you want as much haste as is available to you? Why wouldn't you want extra COR buffs on top of your awesome atmas? You're correct that BRD and COR aren't helpful for trash mobs because they die so fast when 14-18 people are thwapping them... but there's so much more to abyssea once all your jobs are capped at 90 and you've run out of places to put merits.

[Kagato]

Your posts make it sound like the only thing that exists in abyssea is xp. If you're tanking something that has to stay alive for the duration of discerning and proccing red, yellow, (perhaps blue) why wouldn't you want as much haste as is available to you? Why wouldn't you want extra COR buffs on top of your awesome atmas? You're correct that BRD and COR aren't helpful for trash mobs because they die so fast when 14-18 people are thwapping them... but there's so much more to abyssea once all your jobs are capped at 90 and you've run out of places to put merits.

I never said this was EXP only. Lets shift gears to NMs then. I did mention them before, after all. Many times, in fact.

Against NMs, DDs are usually doing 2 things:

1) Watching
2) Procing

Unless that DD happens to be a tank, of course. In THAT case, haste is fine. More haste = more damage = better hate kept. That, I understand. However, killing the mob as quickly as possible isn't a good idea when aiming for procs and normally killing goes slowly until the proc is landed, so haste isn't as big of an issue.

Now, lets move on to situations after proc lands. The DDs could go in and zerg depending on the NM, but often times it is unwise. If they CAN zerg, the NM will probably die quickly regardless of Haste, but if you have a Bard or Corsair handy, fine. Nice. Get those buffs. Thing is, they aren't needed and more often than not, aren't even wanted since having another BLM or WHM is better overall. After all, NMs getting beat on by 10 DDs with high haste tends to allow the NM room to spam it's powerful skills and wipe the team before the healers know what happened.

If the NM can't be zerged effectively (most NMs in abyssea), then double march would really only benefit the tank to keep hate, but would certainly feed the NM some fast TP as well by the tank alone.

This is all relative to the tank and his ability to survive using as few resources as possible. Why do you think a MNK and 2 WHMs are enough for almost anything in Abyssea? NM doesn't spam WS, MNK can survive because WHMs have plenty of breathing room between heals and the NM's next major attack, and then everyone is happy.

Long story short, weak exp mobs die too fast for too much haste to matter. Abyssea NMs are too dangerous to zerg due to feeding too much TP to the NM. Therefore, haste given from equipment and job abilities, plus the additional haste from a WHM is all that is ever required. Therefore, BRDs aren't needed. I have never, ever looked at my team and said "damn. Wish we had a BRD right about now." Everything we need for any event in Abyssea is as simple as 4-6 jobs. White Mage, Black Mage, Blue Mage, Ninja, Warrior, Monk and someone with /BRD. No full BRD needed. Ever.

[Greatguardian]

It takes 2 WHMs to keep a MNK alive? TP feed matters?

On what?

[Cream_Soda]

Double march does not double damage output at all. It increases, but definitely does not double. You need 100% haste to double damage output.

Wrong on so many levels.

You may as well stop now, you have no clue what you're talking about. I didn't read the rest of your posts because I honestly couldn't take you seriously after that statement.

[Kagato]

It takes 2 WHMs to keep a MNK alive? TP feed matters?

On what?

It was a general example. And TP feed does matter depending on the NM. Lets take...oh...Orthrus for example. I fought him today, actually.

We had a team of 8 people and most of us were DDs. The first time we fought Orthrus and landed the proc, we all ran in to zerg it at 60%. Orthrus used Gates of Hades twice in a row very quickly since all the DDs were giving him fast TP, killing more than half the team. The WHM was smart and only focused on healing the NIN, so it didn't turn into a disaster, but every other DD just had to raise up, run off and watch. Zerging was useless.

I already said it depends on the NM you're fighting, but a lot of NMs are like this. Any smart leader tells the DDs to keep back and only run in to WS for a proc or a quick damage spike.

[Kagato]

Wrong on so many levels.

You may as well stop now, you have no clue what you're talking about. I didn't read the rest of your posts because I honestly couldn't take you seriously after that statement.

And I'm at least smart enough to admit when I'm wrong. It's been deleted already since even I knew it wasn't right after I typed it.

Some of you I feel only look for something to rag on.

[Greatguardian]

Well, close.

A smart leader doesn't have more than 2-3 DDs in the group. Any more and you may as well split up and make 2 groups. A smart leader definitely doesn't make a single WHM watch more than 2 DDs if they can afford it, that's just asking for one of them to be labeled Unnecessary and left without cures.

A lot of NMs are easier with fewer people to cure. That doesn't mean their TP feed is a big deal at all. It just means people have a really dumb tendency to assume that 1 WHM is totally fine curebombing 4-5 DDs. Contrary to popular belief, Whm can only cast 1 spell at a time, no matter how powerful it is. The TP feed from 5 DDs is fine, as long as you have more than one healer to heal 5 DDs.

[Kagato]

Well, close.

A smart leader doesn't have more than 2-3 DDs in the group. Any more and you may as well split up and make 2 groups. A smart leader definitely doesn't make a single WHM watch more than 2 DDs if they can afford it, that's just asking for one of them to be labeled Unnecessary and left without cures.

A lot of NMs are easier with fewer people to cure. That doesn't mean their TP feed is a big deal at all. It just means people have a really dumb tendency to assume that 1 WHM is totally fine curebombing 4-5 DDs. Contrary to popular belief, Whm can only cast 1 spell at a time, no matter how powerful it is. The TP feed from 5 DDs is fine, as long as you have more than one healer to heal 5 DDs.

Well, you definitely have a point. However not every team is going to be perfect, especially when the party leader is generous enough to let a group of 10 DDs tag along for something 4 people can do by themselves. When that happens, there's normally not enough healing power to go around. Thats why, more often than not, DD zerging an NM is a bad idea. Still, I see your point.

See, I like you. You can point out something that's incorrect or something you disagree with without sounding like a jerk about it.

[Rambus]

My ls is like that too, sometimes people try to get tp off other mobs run in and ws.

[Kagato]

My ls is like that too, sometimes people try to get tp off other mobs run in and ws.

I just feel like I should treat abyssea NMs like that Turtle and the Hare story. Try to rush in and kill quickly, you die fast. Play it safe and take your time, you can win more easily.

Anyway I think we're going off topic too much, turning it into a Haste/TP discussion.



So uh...hmmm. How 'bout them Dragoons?

[Greatguardian]

I feel bad for DRG. Drakesbane is the best physical WS in the game, and Drg is a solid DD in its own right. It just has practically no utility at all in Abyssea, and even fewer defensive options than WAR; which itself is a defensive pariah.

[Rambus]

I feel bad for DRG. Drakesbane is the best physical WS in the game, and Drg is a solid DD in its own right. It just has practically no utility at all in Abyssea, and even fewer defensive options than WAR; which itself is a defensive pariah.

out of enmp ws? like when you say best ws does it include some of the OP emp ws XD

[Greatguardian]

out of enmp ws? like when you say best ws does it include some of the OP emp ws XD

Yeah, including those too. Rather, I should say, it has the highest potential damage. It will generally average lower in practice because DRG's best lances right now aren't Empyrean weapons.

[Andylynn]

Yeah, including those too. Rather, I should say, it has the highest potential damage. It will generally average lower in practice because DRG's best lances right now aren't Empyrean weapons.

Generally drg runs Mythic > Relic / Empy (no one's really parsed real numbers between odd+lightchains vs hidden dmg procs/def down) > OAT +2 (from a pure dps spectrum) > Vougier's Contus. Drakesbane doesn't really rely on the dmg from the weapon to produce it's numbers since it's such high mods, it relies more on its WSC and attack to produce huge stuff. Fortunately, Contus is fairly easy to get, so you can produce some pretty high numbers with atmas focused mostly on your ws. (inb4apoc. It really isn't needed on trash mobs, especially when you can pretty much one shot them)

[MarkovChain]

You need 50% haste to double damage output over 0% Haste =/.

100% Haste brings your damage output to infinity.
.

So much wrong is this sentence. Apparently BG never heard of Job ability delay. First hard cap is 80%, and is likely obtained way before that due to total delay capping at 80%. When you get near this cap, JA delay on WS at least (2 full seconds) reaches the point where it is as "penalizing" as a full melee round (for monk for instance) which means that the formula going around on noob forums like BG is no longer true.

As an example on monk with ~6 rounds per ws on average going from 60% (= 130 delay) to 65% haste sees his damage increased by

without boosting WS : (6*326*(1-0.60)+120)/(6*326*(1-0.65)+120)= +12.15%
with boosting : +11.31%

while the nub formula you are using gives

(1-0.6)/(1-0.65)=+14.3%

This is what happens for the low amount of 5% haste.

If you have 50% total haste, this actually boosts your total damage compare to no haste by only 84% which is far from doubling damage output.

The lower the average round per ws (obtained through /war, high DA rate or Atmas of the easy modes like apocalypse) will put the number of rounds close to 5 at which point haste is even worse. As an example with ~5 rounds per ws on average 5% haste only does +10% if you start form 60% haste.

[Greatguardian]

Huh. Pchan posted. Somehow I don't feel it's worth taking him off my ignore list to see what he wrote.

[Hoshi]

I never said this was EXP only. Lets shift gears to NMs then. I did mention them before, after all. Many times, in fact.

Against NMs, DDs are usually doing 2 things:

1) Watching
2) Procing

Unless that DD happens to be a tank, of course. In THAT case, haste is fine. More haste = more damage = better hate kept. That, I understand. However, killing the mob as quickly as possible isn't a good idea when aiming for procs and normally killing goes slowly until the proc is landed, so haste isn't as big of an issue.

Now, lets move on to situations after proc lands. The DDs could go in and zerg depending on the NM, but often times it is unwise. If they CAN zerg, the NM will probably die quickly regardless of Haste, but if you have a Bard or Corsair handy, fine. Nice. Get those buffs. Thing is, they aren't needed and more often than not, aren't even wanted since having another BLM or WHM is better overall. After all, NMs getting beat on by 10 DDs with high haste tends to allow the NM room to spam it's powerful skills and wipe the team before the healers know what happened.

If the NM can't be zerged effectively (most NMs in abyssea), then double march would really only benefit the tank to keep hate, but would certainly feed the NM some fast TP as well by the tank alone.

This is all relative to the tank and his ability to survive using as few resources as possible. Why do you think a MNK and 2 WHMs are enough for almost anything in Abyssea? NM doesn't spam WS, MNK can survive because WHMs have plenty of breathing room between heals and the NM's next major attack, and then everyone is happy.

Long story short, weak exp mobs die too fast for too much haste to matter. Abyssea NMs are too dangerous to zerg due to feeding too much TP to the NM. Therefore, haste given from equipment and job abilities, plus the additional haste from a WHM is all that is ever required. Therefore, BRDs aren't needed. I have never, ever looked at my team and said "damn. Wish we had a BRD right about now." Everything we need for any event in Abyssea is as simple as 4-6 jobs. White Mage, Black Mage, Blue Mage, Ninja, Warrior, Monk and someone with /BRD. No full BRD needed. Ever.

It seems to me unless you're doing quick draw solo or are a solo RDM or BLM that there will always be someone tanking NMs in abyssea. That tank could always benefit from COR and BRD buffs. Maybe you don't miss those buffs but I assure you they make things easier.

[Dallas]

Anyone who lists RDM, BRD or COR hasnt played the other end of the spectrum: low hate, low man, pet parties. All 3 of these are amazing in SMN/BST parties. If you haven't seen what we can kill, it's because we're done before you arrive.

RDM, BRD: debuff kings, RDM is a perfect low-hate backup tank when pets die. Refresh abilities replace Minikin. Allow for Razed Ruins.
COR: pet buffs, only job for it. I saw physical pacts climb to over 5600 (no +2 gear) on Sedna. These buffs are amazing (appears to be at least 30-40% increase in damage).

I'm sure PLD has a niche too, but I can help them here. :D

[Cream_Soda]

Pet parties are useful?

[MarkovChain]

Useful for smn beast pup I guess ?

[Fiarlia]

Pet parties are useful?

Probably not but in all fairness I imagine they can be quite a fun change of pace, I really enjoy playing as SMN, for example. (Note, I only do that if we've got enough people to cover what's needed and not enough to split up, and even then it's not usually SMN I take.)

Don't mistake me as saying that we should reevaluate which jobs are or are not useful, though. >.>

[Valaris]

drk isnt totaly useless it has almost all the red procs that war has except polearm/staff so if you cant find a war drk is a decent substitute.

[Cream_Soda]

Too bad wars are available to 95%+ of the game population, as its a very popular job.


it has almost all the red procs that war has except polearm
The staff ws' need war main or sub. If you sub war on drk, you lose dagger procs.

war/nin gets dagger and staff, drk has to choose between the two.

[Rambus]

Too bad wars are available to 95%+ of the game population, as its a very popular job.


The staff ws' need war main or sub. If you sub war on drk, you lose dagger procs.

war/nin gets dagger and staff, drk has to choose between the two.

and the fact drk/war is more useless then drk was originally

[Meyi]

BLM, BLU, BRD, WHM, NIN, WAR.

Provided all of the mage jobs actually have their spells that can proc yellow !!, and that the DD have the weaponskills for red !!. :/

[Alhanelem]

Pet parties are useful?
Yes, they are. Just as there's little you can't kil with mnks and whms, there's little you can't kill by throwing pets at it.

[Cream_Soda]

Yes, they are. Just as there's little you can't kil with mnks and whms, there's little you can't kill by throwing pets at it.
Only thing is you proc a lot less !!s and take a fkton longer to kill.

[Rezeak]

Most useful

WAR and (NIN or SAM/NIN) for all red
BLU BRD WHM BLM for all yellow (and whm does healing)
MNK for tanking and it large range of blue covering
THF - TH ofc

Semi useful
DRK - Large amount of red and blue !!
RNG - 2 Exclusive blue and a few red !!s and wide scan
SCH and RDM - Cures/surrport and debuffs and some yellow !!
PLD - When geared and played well make holding the harder mobs for triggers incredibly easy + it can cover alot of Red and blue !!
DNC - pretty much immortal with right atmas and a WHM.

Less useful
COR - Has Wildfire which easily makes up
SMN and BST - Has Crazy solo ability exploiting ducal guard atma
PUP and DRG - iono

Honestly once u have 3 good atmas almost any DD can produce exssive amounts of dmg while some can do tons and others can do lots it really doesn't change what u can and can't do it even doesn't speed things up much considering the true bottle neck in time sink getting !! triggers.

[Rambus]

SCH and RDM can't really cure in abyssea though...
might as well say a BRD/WHM can cure and prob can do it better ( support + cureing that is)

[Hoshi]

Most useful

WAR and (NIN or SAM/NIN) for all red
BLU BRD WHM BLM for all yellow (and whm does healing)
MNK for tanking and it large range of blue covering
THF - TH ofc

Semi useful
DRK - Large amount of red and blue !!
RNG - 2 Exclusive blue and a few red !!s and wide scan
SCH and RDM - Cures/surrport and debuffs and some yellow !!
PLD - When geared and played well make holding the harder mobs for triggers incredibly easy + it can cover alot of Red and blue !!
DNC - pretty much immortal with right atmas and a WHM.

Less useful
COR - Has Wildfire which easily makes up
SMN and BST - Has Crazy solo ability exploiting ducal guard atma
PUP and DRG - iono

Honestly once u have 3 good atmas almost any DD can produce exssive amounts of dmg while some can do tons and others can do lots it really doesn't change what u can and can't do it even doesn't speed things up much considering the true bottle neck in time sink getting !! triggers.

Out of curiousity what red can rng proc?

[Cream_Soda]

Out of curiousity what red can rng proc?
Cyclone/energy drain w/o needing a specific sub

Seraph strike(/war), raiden thrust (/war /drg or /sam), Earth crusher (/war), red lotus blade (/war), seraph blade (/war)

Rng/war can proc 7/11

[Ramsos]

Cyclone/energy drain w/o needing a specific sub

Seraph strike(/war), raiden thrust (/war /drg or /sam), Earth crusher (/war), red lotus blade (/war), seraph blade (/war)

Rng/war can proc 7/11

I could be wrong, but I dont think /sam gets raiden thrust. Wiki doesnt say that sam gets it naturally.

Though wiki also says that dex = shout distance so I wouldnt take everything wiki says at face value.

[Malamasala]

SMN and BST - Has Crazy solo ability exploiting ducal guard atma

Still haven't soloed anything on SMN that was worth the time it took. I'm still missing RR though, so if it is as godly as people say, it could halve the time to solo things.

[Cream_Soda]

I could be wrong, but I dont think /sam gets raiden thrust. Wiki doesnt say that sam gets it naturally.

Though wiki also says that dex = shout distance so I wouldnt take everything wiki says at face value.
You're correct, I was most likely looking at the job level availability on accident for that. still works /war or /drg however

[Glamdring]

Pet parties are useful?

very useful, when you fight AoE spam happy mobs-especially with high magic resist and/or that healed by x during y garbage-pet parties can be a godsend. Parties generally need a mix of physical and magic damage, unless they are being formed for only 1 fight. The especially useful part is that even if you die when you get up your pet is usually still at full strength. You can stay out of AoE range and still issue your commands (excepting drg) and hopefully get new pets off to keep them mob from killing you when it comes looking. Summoner is actually better than beast at this because they don't have that long recall timer, which is why pup is ok, but you have to be cautious.

Seriously, believe it or not there generally is more than 1 way of getting things done in game. I've actually seen Shinryu beat by a party with a paladin tank without a brew (unfortunately it was a nin weap for the red !! proc, which we didn't have). Be open to new ideas, you might just like them.

[Glamdring]

Out of curiousity what red can rng proc?

dagger red and blue, otherwise blue

oh, and they can do damage, you know, the thing necessary to ever finish fighting your target

[Elexia]

Least Useful
Dark Knight - Dark Knights simply don't add anything to any event right now that other jobs can't do just as well or better. Other DD jobs deal stronger, safer damage and other mages can stun and enfeeble better than they can.


DRK can get more love, but I add plenty to events I go to. I even tank most of the mobs, plus cover 4 weapons for procs o.O.

[Hoshi]

dagger red and blue, otherwise blue

oh, and they can do damage, you know, the thing necessary to ever finish fighting your target

I love rng so it pains me to say this but if you're relying on a rng to be your main source of dmg in abyssea you might want to evaluate your other melee (especially considering the quality of ranger atmas vs melee atmas). As for dagger skill... where is your THF? No ranged weapon skill procs red and so bringing a rng specifically to proc red suggests desperation or redundancy. I will agree that non-conventional setups can get things done but suggesting that ranger is useful and nothing is broken/wrong with the job is doing a huge disservice to the job.

[blowfin]

Only thing is you proc a lot less !!s and take a fkton longer to kill.

Depends what you`re fighting really. Red procs not mattering at all is a good rule of thumb where you can bust out pet burns. Theyre often safer too. Try telling that to a MNK whos just finished Verth though... NO, I MUST BE PUNCHING EVERYTHING.

[Cream_Soda]

Depends what you`re fighting really. Red procs not mattering at all is a good rule of thumb where you can bust out pet burns. Theyre often safer too. Try telling that to a MNK whos just finished Verth though... NO, I MUST BE PUNCHING EVERYTHING.
Don't forget blue procs!

[Dijana]

Im not going to read through all these pages, but really, all jobs are useful....providing the player themself has skill.
Now I dont know about all the other servers, but the one Im in is rampant with people who astralburned>abyleeched their jobs because they're 'useful' but really, just cannot play at all. In the group I am in, we have both a nin and a pld. They challenged each other and the nin won out as being able to tank better due to his DD, so the pld comes something else. However, that same pld I know can far out-tank most other nin mnk thf whatever in abyssea, simply because he is good at his job, and most people cannot play for s**t.

I hate this 'which job is useful' thing because its made so many into bandwagoning and it feels like nobody has any skill anymore. Another example is whm+mnk is supposed to be the dream duo. I was soloing tablilla no problems on dnc one day, a mnk and whm shows up also with another dnc, very obviously burned their jobs (well the mnk and the dnc anyway, the whm seemed better) and were wiping and zombie-ing. Another example, the amount of times I go out with my group for orthrus. We always see a full alliance wiping to it, while our group basically trios with nin thf whm, with the other jobs on the side for procs that after their job is done, run off to get TEs.

I think thats enough examples. The point is usefullness based simply on job selection is very clear cut, but throw in the skill level of the playerbase these days its completley different. I have nin, which in theory should be better than anything else I have, but the fact I never play it/its not geared as well as my other jobs, would make it a very poor choice to go as compared to something else, even if it means we'd need an extra, better nin to make up for the lack of procs. Also to add to that, its a game, and should be fun. Yes you need to bring the right jobs for what you're doing, but if you have the people why not let them come something else they want and are good at, even if it means you're not covering procs with lowest possible number.

[blowfin]

Don't forget blue procs!

Not so much a case of forgetting, more a case of not caring in the first place.

[Greatguardian]

I've solo'd Tablilla on MNK. It doesn't mean the jobs are less useful because the player behind them sucks. Mnk played by someone with a brain is more useful than Pld played by someone with a brain. That is the entire point.

[Dallas]

Depends what you`re fighting really. Red procs not mattering at all is a good rule of thumb where you can bust out pet burns. Theyre often safer too. Try telling that to a MNK whos just finished Verth though... NO, I MUST BE PUNCHING EVERYTHING.

Procs can be handled as well. All you need is one DG pet and one full DD pet, but we have LOTS of friends to come out to play. It's fun to throw a naked Apoc Atma WAR or BLM under the bus.