A New Era of Elitism.

[Adventurer]

I do hope the developers and localization teams reading this knows the meaning behind the word "Elitism". It's not a term used only in FFXI but in real world circumstances as well.

Many people now days talk about how easy this, that and the other is but I must disagree in SOME regards. Elitism used to be a huge problem in FFXI, bottlenecking many players out of being able to participate in content and now it seems to be rearing it's head once more.

Anymore, there is very little content for "groups" of people to do and for this content, unless you have certain pieces of gear you won't just be considered "gimp" but in this day and time, no one will even use you. I will give a couple of quick examples.

Let's say you're a Bard. Anymore, you are expected to be able to at LEAST cast 3 songs and many want you to have Daurdabla which allows you to cast 4 spells. To even get 3 songs up you must spend many millions of gil.

For Paladin, you are expected to have an Aegis and possibly an Ochain as well. At WORST case you are expected to have a Priwen which can cost many millions of gil.

These are a couple of many examples that exist like this. Many people are blinded by the fact that many things became easier without looking at exactly how the game has evolved and what problems, while in different form still exist.

Once upon a time I could devote many hours a day playing this game and finally got to an "ultimate" point on my character, this was all lost effort once the level cap was raised. I'm not here to cry about that, but since then my life has changed and I have become one of the more "casual" players. I cannot devote hours of work per day to farming, doing dynamis and cannot always devote set amounts of time to events, because of that, whenever I think "I would like to play X_JOB" I am reminded that it would take too much effort to be able to take it to a point where it could be used in a event that presents a group with any bit of a challenge. I end up feeling defeated and just tend to log off.

Oddly, back in the day, many years ago there was less of a gap between the best gear in the game and things you could buy right off the auction house for not much gil. It was more of "You get 2% more haste on this" and "You get 5 more accuracy on that" and "You get 3 more STR on that." If you were smart and put some effort into it, you could gear yourself plenty good enough to participate in events and be useful while upgrading further.

Again, even though there are some nice options out there, there is a huge gap between what people consider "Delve worthy" and battle worthy jobs, who are capable of actually taking on a challenge and people who do not have the options to get such outstanding gear.

I'm not asking to be the best by any means, I just wish there was less of a gap, where people could have fun with making multiple jobs useful "end game" that they could use in events without many months worth of effort.

Back in the day, if you had a Hauberk or a Scorpion Harness and a Walarha Turban, matched with some items you could buy off the auction house for not too much and mixed with personal skill you could be useful. Anymore, it doesn't seem it be the case for as I noted, events that require a team and give you a challenge.

[Karbuncle]

I see what you're saying here, the gap between some 117 and 119 armor is pretty decent, and it can make a difference. Still only a handful of jobs suffer greatly from this, namely the ones you mentioned... BRD, PLD, and a close third, RNG. Other jobs can get away with 119 weapons, DD especially, and semi-compitent gear at or around 115-117 which can be obtained through a couple hours of Spark grinding.

That said, 119 weapons are a matter of either time or gil. The gil ones can be obtained with little effort. Can spend an hour in dynamis and have one within a couple days... which is leaps above the old days. Anyway, I myself have taken time off FFXI, a few times in my life, either because the demands of my job or because lack of friends to play with :I. I'd like to say this, not to take away from your argument, but more as advice from someone who has done the same. If you can't devote enough time to obtain a 119 armor because of work restrictions, take a small break, a few months, and come back when the content is easier to access. I did many a time.

There comes a time in our lives when we have to admit we're getting older, and don't have the time we had in our youth, and I think SE is really adjusting content to compensate for that, and doing a fine job. Elitism still exists, but it always will, and it feels about the same to me, back then it was Merit-parties looking 3 hours for a BRD, now its /shout events looking 3 hours for a BRD. I'm thankful they added the charity119 3 song harp that only takes time/gil to get, not decades in Abyssea.

Anyway, the gist of what I'm saying is, I agree with what you're saying, I just want to provide another look at it... I think SE is doing a good job compensating for the fact most of us have grown up, but also trying to keep it challenging. not to be offensive, but some people enjoy a little time-sink and challenge in their MMO, I think SE has hit a decent balance as of now though.

[Dragomair]

Honestly, the only jobs that really *need* decent gear in any content (besides new delve) are PLD and BRD. (And even BRD JSE harp isn't hard to get.)
And as many people state every day when one of these threads are posted, it's Final Fantasy XI. You can play more than one job.
Don't have the time/money/whatever to play/gear a job? Pick a new one or find a group of friends who can help you get to a place where you can be geared appropriately.

[Zarchery]

Priwen and Terpander cost money, but money is so easy to get. These are the casual alternatives to Ochain and Daurdabla. People say "I'm busy! I don't have time for this!" Well here's the thing... you don't have to do it all at once. Players here have years to get stuff done, you can do a little bit at a time. But that point aside, it's an MMORPG. They're traditionally more time consuming. If you can't or don't want to spend a lot of time on it, go play Tetris or Angry Birds or something.

And like Dragonmair said, if you don't want to put the time into gearing these jobs, don't play them. Or don't go hog-wild about gearing them. Do other stuff. Or do this stuff on lowered difficulty settings. People play PLD and BRD sometimes because they like them but often because they know that those jobs are so important to parties, and they want to have in demand jobs. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a poorly geared, random melee job that you put little effort into gearing, then expect strangers to bend over backwards to invite you to do difficult content with.

What you call "elitism" is just having the skills and equipment to do a difficult task. You see the same thing in the real world. Google is a pioneer in the tech sector because it offers great compensation packages and has rigid hiring standards so that it can attract the best developers and engineers in the field. You can't be a so-so programmer and work for Google. You could find work elsewhere in the field. And it's just like that in FFXI. You can't do Ark Angel MR on Very Difficult without 6 exceptionally skilled and well geared players. You could do her on Very Easy or Easy or Normal. But people think this is unfair for some reason.

[VoiceMemo]

I would like to provide a counterpoint to what is called "Elitism".

I have been career bard for some 9+ years and have strived to be the best bard possible, covering all situations. Fast song casting, high potency to songs, number of songs, support curing/na'ing, MACC, etc.

Many of you point out that BRD and PLD seem to be the exceptions to the rule where you DO need better gear to perform well, which I do agree with. However the point I'm bringing up is that yes you can level and play every job, but if you level a job and play it, but don't really want to be the job. This player will still not perform as well as someone that DOES want to play the job. It were akin to if I trie to play paladin, which I have no desire to. I would clearly not perform as well as a main paladin would.

Look at the 11th census http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/11/2.html Bard is listed #15 with only 1.23% of the playerbase playing it. Now SE doesn't exactly say how this percentage is calculated, but I'm guessing it looks at which job each character is on the most and only those that are that job(bard) a greater time than all others are counted.

This is why I was upset over the JSE 3 song option, and now the +2 all song flute. SE is slowly widdling away the difference between a top end bard and ones that get these instruments. Based on the census it's clear that it takes a special mindset to be main bard over all other jobs. But with SE slowly closing the gap between High end brd(what you might call elitist) and one that has these types of instruments, that to me is a slap in the face by SE. We're not getting gimped yes but we put in so much effort to get to the power we are and SE is releasing these new instruments without also boosting out power.

This is why I am in favor of Massacre elegy being only accessed if you have completed 119 Carnwenhan, 99 Gjallarhorn, AND 99 Daurdabla. Since its 100% slow it would set those that have accomplished this feat of all top bard instruments/weapons.

What others call elitism I call pride in the job. Striving to be best you can be. That being said I do like being able to do what other bards can't. I've always said with REM does come with it some arrogance, but in my opinion that is your right for accomplishing such a feat.

I've also helped other bards with gear, many bards have come asking advice on what gear they should get, or order of songs, etc.

So I ask again SE please remember those of us who DO go after the best possible gear for their job. We would like some buffs too. I think everyone would agree they would rather get something, versus being left out and given nothing. (Referencing the no 119 for Sheild, Horn, or Harp)

[Adventurer]

I think people here are missing a huge point. Elitism is fine, yes, it will always exist, I'm okay with that. Yes, there will always be those better than I am at these jobs because I really do not have the time to devote anymore to be the best. I also took a break for more than a year from this game and do want to play it again. My main job for many years was Paladin. It was the first job I ever took to 75 many years ago when the only expansion was Zilart and a PLD had to leech off of manaburn parties in KRT. I put many years of effort into being the best and got very close, I never got an Aegis though. Point being, all that time put in went up in smoke at some point. Whatever. But, I would still like to do difficult content by gearing it up to a point where no, I'm not the best but I can certainly tango. Again, people mention skill. Yep, I'm plenty confident in that on Paladin, but there's nothing I can do with that without an Ochain and an Aegis.

There should definitely be a reward for those who put in the extra mile BUT (and here's the kicker) it shouldn't be so much that it leaves people out who are willing to learn the job, be skilled in the job, spend a amount of time gearing the job and actually be able to play it without devoting many hours a day for months to it. In most MMO's, including olden-days FFXI, those challenging fights existed to get you better and better by the win. Now it's JUST a huge time sink, to be able to actually finally do something worth a bit of a challenge. There's a difference in raising a bar and widening a gap.

[Aeron]

I really wish ppl would stop making threads like this. They give the devs a really false sense that their adjustments aren't working when they are. Priwen is a perfectly capable shield. Beatific shield +1 is really good as well. If you are talking about doing D content the devs have more then accommodated you in that department with regards to a shields that can get the job done. Now I understand min-maxing stats and all that but VD is where the line is drawn. If you don't have the best gear you're going to get stomped plain and simple. If you think that Priwen is difficult to get then that's really your problem , there are plenty of ppl in the game that can make the relatively easily that's really why I cant simpithize. Its ppl like this that come on this forum and complain about how its too hard to do content and why R/E shields, horn and harp have not gotten their looooooooooong over due 119 upgrades.

Oh just on a side note. Any body who claims to main pld that is not even willing to put in the effort to make a RELIC-type shield doesn't deserve to be a pld. You only have to get ochain to lvl 90 for it to be effective. The only other empyrean that you can say about that is the harp and really with the JSE harp that's a moot point. Make a damm ochain then use that to make gil to buy currency to make an aegis. Its going to take some time longer then a week if you don't play everyday I know strange concept but once you get it youll be able to play the job on VD content and do delve most likely depending on your other gear.

[Randnum]

This is why I was upset over the JSE 3 song option, and now the +2 all song flute. SE is slowly widdling away the difference between a top end bard and ones that get these instruments. Based on the census it's clear that it takes a special mindset to be main bard over all other jobs. But with SE slowly closing the gap between High end brd(what you might call elitist) and one that has these types of instruments, that to me is a slap in the face by SE. We're not getting gimped yes but we put in so much effort to get to the power we are and SE is releasing these new instruments without also boosting out power.

Maybe only 1.23% of the playerbase plays BRD seriously because they don't have the time to get all the gear required for people to actually 'let them play Bard'.

I'm just pointing out that one could have the MINDSET for Bard, but be unable to participate in the content because you don't have the years of 'supplies'. That's why career Bards like you get 'slapped in the face'. So that people who are like you in spirit but have NOT got years to invest to catchup with you, can still be seen as useful Bards.

Maybe there's no solution that would make you happy. Maybe reputation or tiny special perks really are the only thing that will ever separate your 9 years of 'effort' from the next person to come. But I can say that if I knew a person that I thought 'wow they'd make a great Bard in FFXI, they just have the mindset for it', and they wouldn't be able to do much content because entire tiers of ability are locked behind month-long gates of work that don't directly require them to be skilled, what's the difference?

Maybe if there was a way to make your 9 years of 'skill acquiring' matter more, but is there?

[Rhonda]

While I can't agree with any particular thing you've said, I can agree with the overall sentiment of your argument. Back in the 75 days, there were more viable options for players for equipment. This, I suspect, was likely due to the fact that the game had been capped at 75 for some time and there was plenty of time for SE to release new gear that had to be sidegrade to existing gear. Back in the day, I feel like there were more options to for a player to be able to just decide to level a new job and play on a whim but today everything requires a higher degree of planning and gear collection.

I would argue that BRD is actually in a decent position, however. For lower-level content, things like SKCNM(up to D), Skirmish(up to 222), AA (N, though people very rarely take 2-song BRD) people generally expect a BRD to have two things: The relevant bits of Empyrean Armor +2 and enough Magic Accuracy to land their spells. Neither of those is particularly hard to come by and you can use these events to see if you want to be more serious about your BRD. For the hardest content, there have always been stiff (and somewhat appropriate) entrance requirements -- for BRD, that is either Terpandor or Duardabla(90).

A March +3 instrument can be tossed in there for Delve but, outside of Delve, I've never seen anyone split hairs about it.

PLD, sadly, is a bit worse off. Once you hit 99 there isn't even any group oriented content you can play to see if you even like the job. SKCNM are about "super-tanking" groups of monster while not engaged (not regular tanking), Skirmish doesn't involve PLD, EXP/JP PTs won't need a tank, and WKR seem to have wonky Enmity-mechanics. I was fortunate enough to be able to try AA HM, the easiest AA, with PLD using Eminent Shield and I was fine until I got one-shot by what was likely an entirely unblocked WS. Mind you, this was prior to Priwen/Beatific +1 and Killedar was something like 4~5M. It seemed like a perfectly worthwhile thing to try at the time. I'd say AAs, even N, are for Priwen and beyond due to the fact that an AA's WS can get huge and, if they go unblocked, they will kill the tank. Without any lower-level content, you're basically forced into paying 2M just to see if you want to go forward as PLD.

The remaining jobs however, have it quite easy in terms of completing content. SKCNM20(~D) and Skirmish(~222) can done with 117 DDs. While getting invited to PUGs is another matter, some higher level content like Delve(1) and AAs(N) can be completed with any ole' 119 weapon. I used my Ninzas +2 for a long while (I even passed Oats a few times to 117 MNK) until I could get Tinhaspa. While I got Tsurumaru before I ever Delved with SAM, I have seen a few Shichishito +2 SAMs in PUGs. WHM doesn't even require much new content to be completed to gear up.

So, while there indeed are requirements to participating in content, they aren't that high.

[Byrth]

Anyone can make >1 million gil per day doing Salvage for an hour. Are the JSE weapons really so out of reach for casual players? It seems more likely to me that the erosion of the NA community makes it so casual players don't know what to do to make gil and don't have anywhere to ask.


The game has never been more casual friendly. In order to gear a WAR fairly well in ToAU at level 75, you needed millions of gil (Haub +1, Dusk Gloves, Flame Ring, Toreador or Sniper +1, etc.) and a lot of time (Byakko's Haidate, Heca hands/feet, enough IS to get Perdu Voulge, more difficult mission clears, merits capped, etc.) This is ignoring all the stuff like E.body, Heca +1, Ridill, maybe a relic, Ares legs, etc. that the "elitists" would have wanted you to have. Furthermore, the performance difference between being "fairly well" geared and being casually geared was very substantial. I remember more than a few merit parties where I was >50% of the parse, and that was among people serious enough to make 2+ hours for meritting.

Ignoring that relics are so easy to make now that you could conceivably make a relic in the time it would have taken to get mission clears and farm a Perdu Voulge before, there are easily obtained options (like Eminent weapons) and slightly more difficult options (the JSE weapons) that are pretty respectable weapons. I wouldn't necessarily take them into one of the hard VD BCNM fights, but they'd be fine on D.

For a newly returned player:
Get an Eminent weapon -> Farm salvage (Arrapago or Bhaflau) -> get a JSE weapon -> farm REM tales and upgrade your AF, farming Salvage as necessary -> congrats, you're essentially fully geared




As far as BRD and PLD, the fourth song from bard becomes less and less important the more buffs the job gets. Champion's March would reduce its utility even further, and I hope they implement it soon. PLD is in a rough spot at the moment. I have Aegis/Ochain and still feel that I should make a Burtgang. Some of those VD fights are crazy. Priwen isn't a bad shield, though, and I should really make one and macro it as well.

[Rhonda]

This is why I was upset over the JSE 3 song option, and now the +2 all song flute.At the time, 3+ Song BRD was pretty much the only way a lot of content was getting done and people would have to shout for long periods of time for BRDs. SE didn't have many good choices, if you ask me. They could either tell people to make more Daurdabla(90) and solve the issue themselves or buff other jobs to match Daurdabla(90) BRD. If the other job's items were just as hard to get, that largely (but not completely) defeats the purpose but if they aren't you've made every Daurdabla(90) holder upset.

Let's also not forget that there are no other Empyrean, Relic, or Mythic weapons, possibly excepting RNG weapons and Yagrush, that dramatically change the output of a job like the R/E Shield and BRD Instruments. Aegis and Ochain, despite not even being iLevel are still the gold-standard of tanking. Nothing matches Ochain's blockrate consistently and nothing reduces magic damage as much as Aegis. Daurdabla(99) doubles the output of a BRD who can use it. No other REM holder can claim that. While I'm sure SE will iLevel these one day, I don't think anyone should ever have expected the gap to remain as wide as it was considering the ferocity of the monsters in Audolin compared to Abyssea and prior.

Maybe the fact that all Item Level Shields and BRD Instruments are capped against Lv.99 versions is just a sign that they should go ahead and iLevel the R/E (not that the game needs to be easier..).

I'm not sure why anyone would be upset over the Eminent Flute, though. While I think using Sparks made it too easy to obtain, it might as well just be Ballad +2. For almost everything else, there's a +3 Instrument. In earnest, I wouldn't mind seeing a Ballad +3 instrument, to close the gap even more. If you compare most REM weapons to their non-REM counterparts, the non-REM are somewhat competitive. That wasn't the case with R/E Shield and BRD Instruments for a long while.

[Tohihroyu]

All I see from elitists is:

- "they are making this game too easy!! and every update breaks windower for a couple minutes Q_Q"

- "STOP GIVING GIMPS HANDOUTS SE"

- "3-4 song brd only or gtfo"

- "mnk only or gtfo"

- "use windower or gtfo"

- "have a whm bot oops I mean whm mule or gtfo"

- "they are making this game more and more like WoW!"

- "14 sucks cause they always cater to casuals & gimps whoever likes it is a gimp in ffxi cause XIV is so easy like WoW"

If you make any of that or more you get on BG's "gimp/confused/wtf" list where they make it their job to bully those players into quitting or worse (like making threats like "I hope that gimp kills themselves irl" or "someone needs to get that gimps dox and burn their house down" and as usual bully people who have disabilities, its pretty much 4chan)

[Karbuncle]

ALl I see from eletists is:

- "they are making this game too easy!! and every update breaks windower for a couple minutes Q_Q"

- "STOP GIVING GIMPS HANDOUTS SE"

- "3-4 song brd only or gtfo"

- "mnk only or gtfo"

- "use windower or gtfo"

- "have a whm bot oops I mean whm mule or gtfo"

- "they are making this game more and more like WoW!"

- "14 sucks cause they always cater to casuals & gimps whoever likes it is a gimp in ffxi cause XIV is so easy like WoW"

If you make any of that or more you get on BG's "gimp/confused/wtf" list where they make it their job to bully those players into quitting or worse (like making threats like "I hope that gimp kills themselves irl" or "someone needs to get that gimps dox and burn their house down" and as usual bully people who have disabilities, its pretty much 4chan)

Gimp thread hasn't been a thing on BG for A long while now, I mean it still exists but its pretty much dead entirely since nobody cares anymore. Also its been a while, but in my memory I've never, ever seen anyone suggest a gimp kill themselves or have someone burn their house down... In fact, everything you've typed in that last sentence is filled with more hate and animosity then I've seen on BG in years, Hypocrisy thy name is you.

I won't pretend the type of elitism you say doesn't exist as I know people are that crazy... but I mean, come on... carrying around this hate and animosity for "elitists" and the age old scapegoat BG only negatively impacts you. Let the hate go?

[Multiabuse]

ALl I see from eletists is:

- "they are making this game too easy!! and every update breaks windower for a couple minutes Q_Q"

- "STOP GIVING GIMPS HANDOUTS SE"

- "3-4 song brd only or gtfo"

- "mnk only or gtfo"

- "use windower or gtfo"

- "have a whm bot oops I mean whm mule or gtfo"

- "they are making this game more and more like WoW!"

- "14 sucks cause they always cater to casuals & gimps whoever likes it is a gimp in ffxi cause XIV is so easy like WoW"

If you make any of that or more you get on BG's "gimp/confused/wtf" list where they make it their job to bully those players into quitting or worse (like making threats like "I hope that gimp kills themselves irl" or "someone needs to get that gimps dox and burn their house down" and as usual bully people who have disabilities, its pretty much 4chan)

Not sure if you are able to fathom this, but some people really do need a challenge to stay interested. SE apparently is going socialist with their content, because they steer clear of anything that could be considered difficult. Sure, in many ways they are making this game like WoW - from a business standpoint it is a successful model. But WoW at least has tiered rewards for those who can defeat the most difficult content in the game.
FFXI has nothing of the sort. There is nothing to distinguish a group that defeats content on "Very Difficult" from those who enter with trusts and succeed on "Easy." WoW has spiffy armor that, while negligibly better than "normal" gear, has a distinguishing graphic that shows they have downed the hardest content.

I'm not casting aspersions on the "casual" crowd, but you have literally won in every aspect of this game, why are you concerned about the "elitists?" You have untold access to everything in the game. You no longer have to hear stories of groups defeating unbeatable bosses, you get to beat them yourselves. And you can do this geared in nothing more than what you can buy with sparks of eminence. Without an ideal to work towards -or something- that sets the hardcore crowd apart, they turn their attention on the handouts and what they perceive as the gimpification of the entire game.

A good game should give ALL groups of players enough to do that they don't have time to focus on what the others are getting. FFXI is failing in this regard.

As to your comments about the BG thread, sure there are some people who are just mean, but most of the people in that thread operate from the idea that, while sometimes funny to look at strange gear choices, helping people understand why they should change their gear is the ultimate goal. Also, I can't recall anyone making ANY threats like "dox and burn their house down." That is just hyperbolic and that kind of rhetoric just makes you seem more judgmental and narrow minded than any of them. You appear to enjoy presenting yourself as some sort of anti-elitist hero that enjoys "ruffling feathers." I don't see a difference between the ultra lame "elitists" and people like you at the other end of the spectrum who seem to think being poorly geared and situationaly oblivious has merit.

[Damane]

I do hope the developers and localization teams reading this knows the meaning behind the word "Elitism". It's not a term used only in FFXI but in real world circumstances as well.

Many people now days talk about how easy this, that and the other is but I must disagree in SOME regards. Elitism used to be a huge problem in FFXI, bottlenecking many players out of being able to participate in content and now it seems to be rearing it's head once more.

Anymore, there is very little content for "groups" of people to do and for this content, unless you have certain pieces of gear you won't just be considered "gimp" but in this day and time, no one will even use you. I will give a couple of quick examples.

Let's say you're a Bard. Anymore, you are expected to be able to at LEAST cast 3 songs and many want you to have Daurdabla which allows you to cast 4 spells. To even get 3 songs up you must spend many millions of gil.

For Paladin, you are expected to have an Aegis and possibly an Ochain as well. At WORST case you are expected to have a Priwen which can cost many millions of gil.

These are a couple of many examples that exist like this. Many people are blinded by the fact that many things became easier without looking at exactly how the game has evolved and what problems, while in different form still exist.

Once upon a time I could devote many hours a day playing this game and finally got to an "ultimate" point on my character, this was all lost effort once the level cap was raised. I'm not here to cry about that, but since then my life has changed and I have become one of the more "casual" players. I cannot devote hours of work per day to farming, doing dynamis and cannot always devote set amounts of time to events, because of that, whenever I think "I would like to play X_JOB" I am reminded that it would take too much effort to be able to take it to a point where it could be used in a event that presents a group with any bit of a challenge. I end up feeling defeated and just tend to log off.

Oddly, back in the day, many years ago there was less of a gap between the best gear in the game and things you could buy right off the auction house for not much gil. It was more of "You get 2% more haste on this" and "You get 5 more accuracy on that" and "You get 3 more STR on that." If you were smart and put some effort into it, you could gear yourself plenty good enough to participate in events and be useful while upgrading further.

Again, even though there are some nice options out there, there is a huge gap between what people consider "Delve worthy" and battle worthy jobs, who are capable of actually taking on a challenge and people who do not have the options to get such outstanding gear.

I'm not asking to be the best by any means, I just wish there was less of a gap, where people could have fun with making multiple jobs useful "end game" that they could use in events without many months worth of effort.

Back in the day, if you had a Hauberk or a Scorpion Harness and a Walarha Turban, matched with some items you could buy off the auction house for not too much and mixed with personal skill you could be useful. Anymore, it doesn't seem it be the case for as I noted, events that require a team and give you a challenge.

what you are describing isnt quiet accurate. yes some people wont go out of their typical setup list, but:

a 3 song bard is very easy achievable and doesnt cost much or gil to do with the oroboro harp + the eminent flute with +2 songs is a very nice alternative if you dont want to farm all +3 song intruments.

we have 1-2 plds in our shell that dont have aegis or ochain and are used as PLDs in various fights, if we need a pld. all fights are can be doen without REMs, but you need to gear properly for them.

Sadly, most of the people really dont know how to gear properly for stuff on most jobs, and leaving them half assed behind undermining their potential use even withotu REM weapons, from my point of view in our shouts, the only condition we set is ilvl119 weapons, doesnt matter if its a REM weapon or delve pre NMs weapon, or delve boss weapons.

[Xantavia]

If you make any of that or more you get on BG's "gimp/confused/wtf" list where they make it their job to bully those players into quitting or worse (like making threats like "I hope that gimp kills themselves irl" or "someone needs to get that gimps dox and burn their house down" and as usual bully people who have disabilities, its pretty much 4chan)
Did you ever read the thread? I can't recall them bashing people for not having the +1 gears. It seemed to boil down to "does your gear make sense", and if you were willing to take advice. If you were a blm stacking VIT and CHR, something might be said. Or say a RNG is wearing the W. Turban. Somebody informs them that haste won't affect ranged attacks. The guy who honestly says he didn't know that and makes a change most likely wouldn't end up there. The other guys who plugs his ears and insists that it does would.

[Sixtythree]

I think generally working with friends can yield consistently better results even without absolute optimal equipment. My experience playing FFXI currently is "Do you have another job?" Because I've chosen to level jobs I genuinely enjoy playing (DRK, DNC, BLU, RDM) and for pickup groups of those 4 none are necessarily desirable enough. Exception BLU in some activities and even so it's never without some hesitation.

Side note, you'll always encounter this issue when you have a job that plays a key role in the PT (PLD, BRD, WHM etc..) and has specific equipment that drastically enhances/changes the job rather than these enhancements being a part of the job itself.

[VoiceMemo]

In my previous post I put


So I ask again SE please remember those of us who DO go after the best possible gear for their job. We would like some buffs too. I think everyone would agree they would rather get something, versus being left out and given nothing. (Referencing the no 119 for Sheild, Horn, or Harp)

My issue has always been the inequality of the updates to REM. It was not our fault that SE made the shields, horn, harp as powerful as they did. They could have given us stat boosts, IE for shields VIT, for horn and harp CHR boots. No one asked for all songs +5 or the ability to grant a 5th song. I feel we should have at least been INCLUDED instead of EXCLUDED from the 119 update. As the sheilds and instruments are considered Relic or Empyrean. Just because of SE's shortsightedness were we excluded.

The catchup of others I suppose is a semi valid reason. Though anyone who is serious about bard should get Gjallarhorn. I've always said QUALITY of songs > QUANTITY of songs. Only when you have both horn and harp is it better. With the way dynamis is at the moment, it takes about 57 runs for me to solo enough currency for a relic.

Now some might say "but you have thf and I dont". Well I'd say to them level thf, it is an investment in your future. Learn dynamis farm your relic currency. 57 runs is small amount/time compared to when I had to do relic back in the old days when there was 1m gil hourglass and 72 hour re-entry limitation. It took me 1.6 years to complete Gjallarhorn.

Events that took so much time/gil are now so easy yet people are still complaining they are TOO hard. It is all about a matter of perspective. Since I've made mythic(Carnwenhan), I can now see that all other events pale in comparison. 30k alex is ALOT, 304 stacks if you don't turn them in as you go, and without the ability to turn into 100s like relic currency.

It is all about perspective. I'm at the point of game where once Harp is 99 I will have all the greatest gear(REM) wise for bard and I understand finally why certain DD quit at 75 once they obtained their relic. They lost the motivation to do anything because they completed all their goals and lost interest in game. This is why I ask that SE not forget those that are high end. We would like to get stuff too.

All relic takes now is time and dedication, which frankly applies to any item im game. If you reallywant it you make the time for it, not excuses.

Good gear either takes time, gil, or luck(lotto/nm drops). Yes you can't do some of the higher level content but thats why difficulty levels were added in certain events.(any merit KI fight)

I dont think taking 1.6 years for Gjallarhorn, 4 years for Carnwenhan, and Still working on Daurdabla is elitist. I've put alot of effort into it and don't like to be excluded from updates. Yes Carnwenhan got MACC but both Horn and Harps were left out.

I view it akin to those of us who studied hard in school and now have jobs and getting paid well. We paid our dues early on instead of partying and having fun and now are reaping the rewards. Those of us that are high end still want to be included in any boosts.


I'm not casting aspersions on the "casual" crowd, but you have literally won in every aspect of this game, why are you concerned about the "elitists?" You have untold access to everything in the game. You no longer have to hear stories of groups defeating unbeatable bosses, you get to beat them yourselves. And you can do this geared in nothing more than what you can buy with sparks of eminence. Without an ideal to work towards -or something- that sets the hardcore crowd apart, they turn their attention on the handouts and what they perceive as the gimpification of the entire game."

I agree with this previous post

If you can't do delve GET a LS. I keep track of my members wins and who needs what and try to help them get wins.

I hold that a good LS is more important than ever now, that it can make or break your progress in game for certain events.

[VoiceMemo]

I'm not sure why anyone would be upset over the Eminent Flute, though. While I think using Sparks made it too easy to obtain, it might as well just be Ballad +2. For almost everything else, there's a +3 Instrument. In earnest, I wouldn't mind seeing a Ballad +3 instrument, to close the gap even more. If you compare most REM weapons to their non-REM counterparts, the non-REM are somewhat competitive. That wasn't the case with R/E Shield and BRD Instruments for a long while.

As for the +2 all song flute let us compare how gjallarhorn has changed and how it has affected the primary song it's used for, ballad.

At 75 Gjallarhorn +2, at the time no other ballad instrument(aside from in salvage)

Without Gjallarhorn
Ballad 1 + Ballad 2 = 3mp/tic

With Gjallarhorn
Ballad 1+2 + Ballad 2+2 = 7mp/tic

Difference
7/3 = 2.3x boost

When Daurdabla was added and ballad 3 + Emp+2 legs

without Gjallarhorn + Emp+2 legs
Ballad 1+1 + Ballad 2+1 + Ballad 3+1 = 9mp/tic

With Crooner's Cithara (ballad +1) + Emp+2 legs
Ballad 1+1+1 + Ballad 2+1+1 + Ballad 3+1+1 = 13mp/tic

With Eminent Flute + Emp+2 legs
Ballad 1+2+1 + Ballad 2+2+1 + Ballad 3+2+1 = 15mp/tic

With Gjallarhron at 90/95 + Emp+2 legs
Ballad 1+3+1 + Ballad 2+3+1 + Ballad 3+3+1 = 18mp/tic

With Gjallarhorn at 99 + Emp+2 legs
Ballad 1+4+1 + Ballad 2+4+1 + Ballad 3+4+1 = 21mp/tic

Differences
Emp+2 legs alone
21/9 = 2.3x

Crooner's + Emp +2 Legs
21/13 = 1.6x

Eminent Flute + Emp+2 legs
21/15 = 1.4x

The difference from when we were 75 has been widdled down alot. At 75 ballads for
a Gjallarhorn brd were 2.3x more powerful than one without. Compared to now with any brd, with a 10k spark item(very easy to get) and JSE harp(not as easy to get but still easy) as 1.4x a difference of .9x from the days of 75. This is what I mean about widdling away the difference between brds power. Brd is unique in the fact that our buffs are ONLY depentant of the brds skill and gear. There are no resist factors like DD have with weaponskills. So the differences are more noticable than if you were
to compare a 117 weapon with a 119 REM.

[MeohmymeandI]

I really wish ppl would stop making threads like this. They give the devs a really false sense that their adjustments aren't working when they are. Priwen is a perfectly capable shield. Beatific shield +1 is really good as well. If you are talking about doing D content the devs have more then accommodated you in that department with regards to a shields that can get the job done. Now I understand min-maxing stats and all that but VD is where the line is drawn. If you don't have the best gear you're going to get stomped plain and simple. If you think that Priwen is difficult to get then that's really your problem , there are plenty of ppl in the game that can make the relatively easily that's really why I cant simpithize. Its ppl like this that come on this forum and complain about how its too hard to do content and why R/E shields, horn and harp have not gotten their looooooooooong over due 119 upgrades.

Oh just on a side note. Any body who claims to main pld that is not even willing to put in the effort to make a RELIC-type shield doesn't deserve to be a pld. You only have to get ochain to lvl 90 for it to be effective. The only other empyrean that you can say about that is the harp and really with the JSE harp that's a moot point. Make a damm ochain then use that to make gil to buy currency to make an aegis. Its going to take some time longer then a week if you don't play everyday I know strange concept but once you get it youll be able to play the job on VD content and do delve most likely depending on your other gear.


Well said Aeron! :)

[Damane]

I really wish ppl would stop making threads like this. They give the devs a really false sense that their adjustments aren't working when they are. Priwen is a perfectly capable shield. Beatific shield +1 is really good as well. If you are talking about doing D content the devs have more then accommodated you in that department with regards to a shields that can get the job done. Now I understand min-maxing stats and all that but VD is where the line is drawn. If you don't have the best gear you're going to get stomped plain and simple. If you think that Priwen is difficult to get then that's really your problem , there are plenty of ppl in the game that can make the relatively easily that's really why I cant simpithize. Its ppl like this that come on this forum and complain about how its too hard to do content and why R/E shields, horn and harp have not gotten their looooooooooong over due 119 upgrades.

Oh just on a side note. Any body who claims to main pld that is not even willing to put in the effort to make a RELIC-type shield doesn't deserve to be a pld. You only have to get ochain to lvl 90 for it to be effective. The only other empyrean that you can say about that is the harp and really with the JSE harp that's a moot point. Make a damm ochain then use that to make gil to buy currency to make an aegis. Its going to take some time longer then a week if you don't play everyday I know strange concept but once you get it youll be able to play the job on VD content and do delve most likely depending on your other gear.

+1 to this.

The complaining has gone out of hands. I would like to add, that EVERY VD fight can be tanked by PLD sans ochain or aegis and has been done successfully multiple times with the correct setup and gear. I am sorry to say it to some people, but haveing the correct gear on at correct times makes also VDs very possible and somewhat easy to tank as PLD even without RMEs. EVERY VD can also be done with DDs sporting non REM ilvl 119 weapons. The problem is that people suck at gearing correctly their jobs and try to go the lazy way out, when that is definitly not the solution. Also makeing/joining shells and being a team of skilled players that know how to play together (teamwork) will do allways better then any kind of Pick up group you will find.

Yes Ochain/Aegis makes those fights easier, yes a 4 song bard too (not haveing 3 songs nowadays is really no excuse), but its doable without, its just requires teamwork, proper geared people and support that doesnt suck balls (like 99% of the whm that play the job as a hobby or to fill the remaining spot, with no incentiv to play the job on a good level, which hurts more)

[Zarchery]

What are people being "elitist" in their demands for? I see these types of shouts but they're invariably for mission battlefields on Difficult and Very Difficult. Which sounds like it's working as intended. Those fights are no joke and you NEED to have good gear and a solid party setup to win. But they made the fights adjustable in difficulty for a reason. I beat Ark Angel TT on Normal difficulty with a terrible party. We had a Monk who could barely hit.

How about this. You guys complaining about elitists form your own party for mission battlefields on D/VD, or Delve, using people in sparks gear. Post a video. Let's see how that goes.

[Zarchery]

Oh just on a side note. Any body who claims to main pld that is not even willing to put in the effort to make a RELIC-type shield doesn't deserve to be a pld. You only have to get ochain to lvl 90 for it to be effective. The only other empyrean that you can say about that is the harp and really with the JSE harp that's a moot point. Make a damm ochain then use that to make gil to buy currency to make an aegis. Its going to take some time longer then a week if you don't play everyday I know strange concept but once you get it youll be able to play the job on VD content and do delve most likely depending on your other gear.

I've largely balked at the idea of levelling PLD cause I just don't want to go through the effort of doing Ochain. From the little bit of T3 Abyssea VNMs I've dabbled in, Colorless Souls seem like a major pain in the ass to build. I could probably do Aegis or Priwen though.

But that's what I like about Oboro gear. You can just BUY it. Farming gil is so much easier than farming Ex items.

[Afania]

All I see from elitists is:

- "they are making this game too easy!! and every update breaks windower for a couple minutes Q_Q"

- "STOP GIVING GIMPS HANDOUTS SE"

- "3-4 song brd only or gtfo"

- "mnk only or gtfo"

- "use windower or gtfo"

- "have a whm bot oops I mean whm mule or gtfo"

- "they are making this game more and more like WoW!"

- "14 sucks cause they always cater to casuals & gimps whoever likes it is a gimp in ffxi cause XIV is so easy like WoW"

If you make any of that or more you get on BG's "gimp/confused/wtf" list where they make it their job to bully those players into quitting or worse (like making threats like "I hope that gimp kills themselves irl" or "someone needs to get that gimps dox and burn their house down" and as usual bully people who have disabilities, its pretty much 4chan)

To defend for "elitist"(I don't even consider your above point being elitism, but oh well):

1. It's unrealistic to expect EVERY_SINGLE player in this game has same lv of standard, everyone has different standard when it comes to game being easy/hard.

I know ppl that plays video game 1hr a week, some ppl play video game 10hr a week, some plays 30hr a week and some plays 10hr a DAY.

Obviously, a gear designed to take 5hr to obtain will be too "easy" to a player that plays 10hr a day, since they can obtain 2 gears in one day. But for ppl that only plays 1hr a week, it'd take them longer than a month to obtain.

A player that play the game for 10hr a day calling casuals "gimp" is the same as a player that play the game for 1hr a week calling hardcore player "elitist". It's all discrimination toward different group of players.

However, it's not realistic to expect every player are the same. There WILL be players thinking that gears doesn't take long to obtain and they get nothing left to do, and there WILL be players that can never catch up. It's not realistic to expect "elitists" who got nothing to do in this game to spend less time in this game or make progress slower, just because casuals plays less.

If you happened to play less, or make slower progress, make friends with ppl like you. But don't try to point fingers toward someone that's different from you. No one can make friends with everyone in this world.

2. Some say the gap between elite and casual are very big, but from my personal observation, the gap is MUCH smaller than 75/pre-SoA era ever since all gears added haste. Before SoA you'd see elite parse 50% in VW and gimp parsed less than 5%. I haven't seen gap THIS big for ages.

3. Real "elite" doesn't use windower, they use something a lot more than windower :)

4. Current FFXIV is 3x harder than SoA FFXI, true story. It's been a harder game since ARR released.


Oh and btw, real elitism to me means "demand something more than necessary". Using windower, using optimal jobs, thinking this game is too easy isn't even real elitism IMO. Also, most of the time ppl(myself to be exact) wanted stuff to take longer to obtain out of logical reasons that's related to game design.....MMO isn't single player RPG. Dev's job is to make the game lasting as long as possible so ppl continue to spend 12$ every month but not feel like they log on and get nothing to do. And currently, they're failing in that aspect so I feel my $12 a month is wasted. It's more about game design and less about wanting to bash casuals.

[Afania]

+1 to this.

The complaining has gone out of hands. I would like to add, that EVERY VD fight can be tanked by PLD sans ochain or aegis and has been done successfully multiple times with the correct setup and gear. I am sorry to say it to some people, but haveing the correct gear on at correct times makes also VDs very possible and somewhat easy to tank as PLD even without RMEs. EVERY VD can also be done with DDs sporting non REM ilvl 119 weapons. The problem is that people suck at gearing correctly their jobs and try to go the lazy way out, when that is definitly not the solution. Also makeing/joining shells and being a team of skilled players that know how to play together (teamwork) will do allways better then any kind of Pick up group you will find.

Yes Ochain/Aegis makes those fights easier, yes a 4 song bard too (not haveing 3 songs nowadays is really no excuse), but its doable without, its just requires teamwork, proper geared people and support that doesnt suck balls (like 99% of the whm that play the job as a hobby or to fill the remaining spot, with no incentiv to play the job on a good level, which hurts more)


To sum up SE OF thread mentality: You must complain about the game difficulty, no matter how easy it is, until all the gears popped in delivery box and even players that spend below avg amount of time in MMO can cap gears without playing the game. If you're not complaining about the difficulty, you're an elitist.

That's why goals in this game takes less time to do than how it used to be, because whoever can cap gears in short amount of time already got bored and quit, so they can't post. Now SE's making the game requiring less time to "finish" than avg MMORPG.

[Afania]

Did you ever read the thread? I can't recall them bashing people for not having the +1 gears. It seemed to boil down to "does your gear make sense", and if you were willing to take advice. If you were a blm stacking VIT and CHR, something might be said. Or say a RNG is wearing the W. Turban. Somebody informs them that haste won't affect ranged attacks. The guy who honestly says he didn't know that and makes a change most likely wouldn't end up there. The other guys who plugs his ears and insists that it does would.


I'm pretty sure some ppl on BG used to bash REM owners for using NQ armor/rings instead of HQ, because "HQ armor is bigger increase than certain legendary and he's wasting more gil for less increase". So it's not always about ppl making complete retard choices, but it's often more about ppl making choices and priority they don't agree with.

That being said, it's not possible to make choices that please everyone. If you insist to make certain choice, why does it matter that others said something about it?

I don't use windower/3rd pt tool so I parse low all the time. I don't care jack shit about how others say about my playskill, since I can clear all the delve2/VD content np without tools. I don't play ANY of the mainstream job like MNK SAM BRD RNG PLD WHM, if someone ask me to lv above jobs I just make my own pt. I also made priority choices that 95% of players disagree, such as spending 500M(when alex worth 20k each) on a Death Penalty when it's extremely niche weapon for a job that no one cares. However whenever someone make fun of my choices, I just laugh with them and continue to stick with my choices. Eventually, more and more ppl agree with my choices and they would rather play with me more than the others.

IMO, if an individual can't tolerate someone else not liking his/her job and gears, that person needs to change mindset about how human interaction works. This is barely a FFXI issue, it's just human nature.

[Karbuncle]

I don't use windower/3rd pt tool so I parse low all the time. I don't care jack shit about how others say about my playskill, since I can clear all the delve2/VD content np without tools. I don't play ANY of the mainstream job like MNK SAM BRD RNG PLD WHM, if someone ask me to lv above jobs I just make my own pt. I also made priority choices that 95% of players disagree, such as spending 500M(when alex worth 20k each) on a Death Penalty when it's extremely niche weapon for a job that no one cares. However whenever someone make fun of my choices, I just laugh with them and continue to stick with my choices. Eventually, more and more ppl agree with my choices and they would rather play with me more than the others.

I don't use Windower/3PT, with Vanilla FFXI becoming more and more user friendly, and the upcoming update to allow us to swap multiple pieces of gear with 1 macro line... Windower is ever increasingly becoming, not obsolete, but less needed. That said, as I stand now, I can parse really well without Windower, but I understand the truest to its word "Elitism" that windower users get when it comes to Windower/V/NonWindower, as from first hand experience... To those people if you're not saving the 1 Seconds a single-hit macro hit gains over hitting 2 macros, you're wasting everyones time.

That said, Its best to let that kind of stuff go in one ear and out the other, these folk are few and far between, and frankly if they want to feel superior/elite for whatever reasons, its better to just let it go and ignore them... Theres no reasoning with them nor can they comprehend any way to play but their own. I'd like to think these types of actual "Elitists" are pretty few and far between though.


IMO, if an individual can't tolerate someone else not liking his/her job and gears, that person needs to change mindset about how human interaction works. This is barely a FFXI issue, it's just human nature.

Agreed on the "Human nature" part... Its an unfortunate reality of the world we live in.

[Lordkyron]

Let me clarify one thing.
Most of the TRUE elitist left tha game a long time ago. When abbysea was released.
Todays ffxi elitist are the abysea generation. They inherited the game.

And yes i do like abbysea.

[Damane]

Let me clarify one thing.
Most of the TRUE elitist left tha game a long time ago. When abbysea was released.
Todays ffxi elitist are the abysea generation. They inherited the game.

And yes i do like abbysea.

guess my 11+ years of FFXI auto-disqualify me as an elitist from the abyssea generation!

[Lordkyron]

guess my 11+ years of FFXI auto-disqualify me as an elitist from the abyssea generation!

It does. Like i said MOST not everyone.
Most of the guys that left. Was mostly because of all that hard work on Relics. Mythics. Trown out the window on a single update.
TBH i don't blame them

[Olor]

Let's say you're a Bard. Anymore, you are expected to be able to at LEAST cast 3 songs and many want you to have Daurdabla which allows you to cast 4 spells. To even get 3 songs up you must spend many millions of gil.


I mostly agree with your sentiment, re: elitism but the 3 song harp is totally within reach of most players. I don't even play a lot and I have the 119 JSE for BRD, BST, BLU and THF. Is it a lot of millions of gil? Yes, it is. But you don't need elite gear to farm gil. Can do voidwatch, dynamis, etc. I mean it took me a couple weeks to save for my BRD harp and some friends to get me the win I needed but it's doable.

I think the elitism is the fact that most groups won't leave without a bard (believe me I like being needed, but I see the problem) and the fact that light DD jobs and mage jobs (other than whm and stun sch) are somewhat useless. (Pet jobs are pretty much useless) Haven't played since update though so maybe that's changed in the last few days.

[Damane]

I mostly agree with your sentiment, re: elitism but the 3 song harp is totally within reach of most players. I don't even play a lot and I have the 119 JSE for BRD, BST, BLU and THF. Is it a lot of millions of gil? Yes, it is. But you don't need elite gear to farm gil. Can do voidwatch, dynamis, etc. I mean it took me a couple weeks to save for my BRD harp and some friends to get me the win I needed but it's doable.

I think the elitism is the fact that most groups won't leave without a bard (believe me I like being needed, but I see the problem) and the fact that light DD jobs and mage jobs (other than whm and stun sch) are somewhat useless. (Pet jobs are pretty much useless) Haven't played since update though so maybe that's changed in the last few days.

the JSE weapons can be bought with 2-3 Dynamis runs selling coins, i dont see how that can be hard to achieve for most players oO

[Lordkyron]

The problem is that not many people are buying Dynamis coins, it depends on the server. (most people farm their coins)

[Sapphire]

The problem is that not many people are buying Dynamis coins, it depends on the server. (most people farm their coins)

*blink blink*

I'm sorry but there is ALWAYS someone who is like "DYNAMIS I WOULD RATHER HAVE GIANT WORMS BURROW HOLES IN MY HEAD THAN SPEND ANOTHER SECOND IN THERE OMG TWO HOURS KILL ME NOW!" I know. I live with one of them. Someone always wants to buy coins. On your server they may not want to buy them for what you think they are worth, but someone wants to buy them.

[Karbuncle]

I usually sell all my dynamis coins within an hour of afking in Ru'Lude, tip is to not price them like they're a golden egg. I usually price mine about 200 gil under the average... people look for cheap currency.

[geekgirl101]

It seems to me that people don't want to try, they want to do things the easy way. A lot of classes are being ignored in favour of heavy DD just to zerg bosses. I got asked 2 days ago if I had the Throne Room waypoint, which I didn't. Next day I climbed the castle to get the waypoint, and then was told I was no use for the fight as SMN. If a SMN is no good for Shadow Lord v2 then what class is? And even if I did have to level say SAM or MNK it's never going to be taken seriously because the gear investment is too much just to do 1 battle.

[Malithar]

It seems to me that people don't want to try, they want to do things the easy way. A lot of classes are being ignored in favour of heavy DD just to zerg bosses. I got asked 2 days ago if I had the Throne Room waypoint, which I didn't. Next day I climbed the castle to get the waypoint, and then was told I was no use for the fight as SMN. If a SMN is no good for Shadow Lord v2 then what class is? And even if I did have to level say SAM or MNK it's never going to be taken seriously because the gear investment is too much just to do 1 battle.

Smn isn't half bad on that fight really, it's not optimal, but it works fine, even more so if you pay attention to his immunity stages (hand glowing = magic immune, sword glowing = physical immune) and cater your BPs to it. You've also got Whm 99 set as your main job, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. What you described is a people problem, not a problem with the fights or jobs specifically (not that some jobs don't need help!).

You're also ignoring what gearing up another job would do for you, beyond this one fight.

[Yadam]

i agree with what you are saying, but the problem is mainly with the community. things can be done without all that stuff, but it would just be a little harder, and people are lazy/close minded. i also agree with what you said about the old days and being able to at least get almost as good gear from the AH. how can we fix this? idk, people won't really change, the game has undergone so many changes for the worse it's rediculous. i think they just need to make 75 cap servers for people to play on.

[Afania]

The problem is that not many people are buying Dynamis coins, it depends on the server. (most people farm their coins)

Are you playing another game? Where everyone needs WHM mule to solo abyssea and no one buy coins.

[Lordkyron]

Are you playing another game? Where everyone needs WHM mule to solo abyssea and no one buy coins.

i don't know
it says ffxi on the box

[Babekeke]

Are you playing another game? Where everyone needs WHM mule to solo abyssea and no one buy coins.

I can only assume that anyone who calls themselves "Lord" (and then can't solo abyssea) is a joke.

[pretre]

in my opinion elitism is a good thing but only for top level content, the issue is there is very little content to do these days so every one wants to do the delve bosses as all the other content is a joke in terms of a challenge, there should be a diff in a person that put in the time and effort to get a j/s/e weapon compared to someone that gets a drop from a nm. se is trying to make the game equal for every one so it don't really matter if you put the work in or not which is why the game is starting to become a bit stale. there is still only one endgame option ( delve bosses ) and every update they just add a new bcnm, imo we need 3 or 4 end game options that take large groups like the old lvl 75 days so elite players can be the foundation of the end game ls and the casual players can just fit in around them just like the old days. your character should represent the work you put in to it, casual players should have mostly casual gear and elite players should have elite gear

[Lordkyron]

I can only assume that anyone who calls themselves "Lord" (and then can't solo abyssea) is a joke.

oh yes , anything else?
or are you done?

[Olor]

your character should represent the work you put in to it, casual players should have mostly casual gear and elite players should have elite gear

Sorry bro, this was done because the playerbase is shrinking. As much as you might think it would be fun to sit and shout for 10 hours to get a three song bard because your LS bard had some real life thing to do... SE saw that not enough people were available to complete content and so they have moved to evening out the differences in player strength. I think this is a great thing. If you want to call yourself elite, go make a mythic. That takes some real dedication and people will respect you for it. For a lot of jobs its a huge boon too. The difference between a yagrush whm and a non yagrush whm is still huge. The difference between a nirvana smn and a non mythic smn is also large. Heck, a 4-song Dharp is still massively more powerful than the JSE harp. Ochain is still best at what it does.

Many REMs still have a lot to recommend them. The difference is now you don't have people with an 85-90 empy thinking they are better than someone doing current content. That's ok.

Truly Elite players still have ways to distinguish themselves - the difference is people who want to think they are elite but don't actually put that much more work in don't get to feel massively superior to normal players. Given the size of the playerbase - that's just fine.

[Draylo]

Sorry bro, this was done because the playerbase is shrinking. As much as you might think it would be fun to sit and shout for 10 hours to get a three song bard because your LS bard had some real life thing to do... SE saw that not enough people were available to complete content and so they have moved to evening out the differences in player strength. I think this is a great thing. If you want to call yourself elite, go make a mythic. That takes some real dedication and people will respect you for it. For a lot of jobs its a huge boon too. The difference between a yagrush whm and a non yagrush whm is still huge. The difference between a nirvana smn and a non mythic smn is also large. Heck, a 4-song Dharp is still massively more powerful than the JSE harp. Ochain is still best at what it does.

Many REMs still have a lot to recommend them. The difference is now you don't have people with an 85-90 empy thinking they are better than someone doing current content. That's ok.

Truly Elite players still have ways to distinguish themselves - the difference is people who want to think they are elite but don't actually put that much more work in don't get to feel massively superior to normal players. Given the size of the playerbase - that's just fine.

In what world do you live in that people who are part of an LS shout 10 hours for a bard? Gearing a 3song bard is so easy lol

[Sapphire]

In what world do you live in that people who are part of an LS shout 10 hours for a bard? Gearing a 3song bard is so easy lol

People who HATE playing BRD, hate it, don't want to gear it, no matter how easy, will NOT gear it, etc. Your ls has say three bards, one went on vacation, one had an emergency, one is just awol. Cue disaster. (Maybe not 10 hours of shouting.)

Just a hypothetical.

[Olor]

In what world do you live in that people who are part of an LS shout 10 hours for a bard? Gearing a 3song bard is so easy lol

Not right now. But before JSE I regularly saw people shouting for several hours for a bard. That was my point. SE saw that that large differentials in playerbase capability were hampering group play. So they have begun flattening the differences between players. Before JSE lots of LSes didn't have a single 3 song bard. Now many have several.

Ten hours was an exaggeration, obviously. I still see people shouting for a long time for BRD. Although haven't played much for a couple weeks so don't know if this is still the case but in off peak hours I would still see people looking for bards for a significant amount of time. I know because I'd feel slightly guilty for not signing up but I often don't feel like doing serious content.

[Maledict]

If you make any of that or more you get on BG's "gimp/confused/wtf" list where they make it their job to bully those players into quitting or worse (like making threats like "I hope that gimp kills themselves irl" or "someone needs to get that gimps dox and burn their house down" and as usual bully people who have disabilities, its pretty much 4chan)

Whoa! Whoa! Hey now! That disgraces 4chan. Not even /v/ or /b/ do that.

(Matter of fact, the few times /v/ has come in direct contact with BG it has resulted in disgust.)

[pretre]

[QUOTE=Olor;517609]Sorry bro, this was done because the playerbase is shrinking. As much as you might think it would be fun to sit and shout for 10 hours to get a three song bard because your LS bard had some real life thing to do... SE saw that not enough people were available to complete content and so they have moved to evening out the differences in player strength. I think this is a great thing. If you want to call yourself elite, go make a mythic. That takes some real dedication and people will respect you for it. For a lot of jobs its a huge boon too. The difference between a yagrush whm and a non yagrush whm is still huge. The difference between a nirvana smn and a non mythic smn is also large. Heck, a 4-song Dharp is still massively more powerful than the JSE harp. Ochain is still best at what it does.

I do see your point but I have to disagree as I think the 4 jobs you mentioned there are the only jobs you could say outshine the current content counterparts by a large amount, I don't consider myself or the ls I run to be elite as I put my weapon time in to relics and not mythics, but a relic for a non elite player takes dedication too. for the most part lets say a war joins a group and he has a mythic 119 greataxe he will get respect for it but only because you don't see many around rather than there is a huge damage gap between it and a current content greataxe of 30 dmg more which imo the work of a weapon like that or even a bravura should be shown in its abilitys. but my main point is that we need multiple end games that take large amounts of people rather than just delve in which case we would end up like the old lvl75 days of having lses for set events rather than people doing shouts, I don't ever remember people shouting for sky or dyna runs, and as im sure you remember from back then if you had a decent weapon you did well in sky an dyna but the relic and mythic owners really got to shine as they should

[Babekeke]

Not right now. But before JSE I regularly saw people shouting for several hours for a bard. That was my point. SE saw that that large differentials in playerbase capability were hampering group play. So they have begun flattening the differences between players. Before JSE lots of LSes didn't have a single 3 song bard. Now many have several.

Ten hours was an exaggeration, obviously. I still see people shouting for a long time for BRD. Although haven't played much for a couple weeks so don't know if this is still the case but in off peak hours I would still see people looking for bards for a significant amount of time. I know because I'd feel slightly guilty for not signing up but I often don't feel like doing serious content.

If only Haste II had come out earlier, they could have never released the JSE Harp, and given BRD a better weapon for non-mythics.

Can't find a 3-song BRD? take a RDM and a well-geared non-empy BRD instead.

But no, now it's just any brd that paid a few mil for a JSE harp, then Q.Q when you realise that the guy just wanted a spot in your PT and hasn't bothered to gear afterall.