Stormwaker Y-700 Head, Haste II and Automaton AI.

[Balloon]

It's fantastic that we were given haste 2! Thank you for that.

The RDM frame has it placed last on it's priority of enhancements (Meaning if you're fighting anything that can break stoneskin it'll never really get cast) and it doesn't think to overwrite haste 1, meaning if you're using a whm trust it's often just gonna get uncast.

He has also forgotten how to cast Shell.

It also does really poor nukes for 200 mp each time, making it a really undesirable frame for a lot of situations.

Furthermore, I think this would be a good place to mention just how uncooperative automaton AI can be, trusts seem to be able to know when to cast Cure 4 and Cure 5, but this is something our Automatons fail to grasp, so I'll get a Cure 6 when I should be getting a cure 5, and a Cure 5 when I should be receiving a 4. Our AI has remained mostly unchanged, but some aspects of the game have changed a lot.

Cure 4 got a substantial boost, and with Vivi-valve 1/2 and maybe Foire Churidars is easily able to handle any hp loss up to around 650hp or more.

Nukes have been changed considerably, so maybe our automatons, especially the rdm, should consider using lower tier nukes for less mp.

I also think the RDM buff order should be changed, having haste II is going to be more important than having a 350HP stoneskin, and having phalanx is going to be doing more than the Stoneskin over a longer period of time. The order should be: Haste II, Phalanx, Stoneskin.

Maybe consider adding more RDM enfeebles too. I doubt we'd get much use out of the -50 Eva, since we'd not really be using the rdm frame on anything that needs it, but it would help better reflect the job it's supposed to be.

[Balloon]

I'm also just going to add some stats in here for automatons, I think they mostly speak for themselves.

at level 119 my Paladin Frame has around 750-780 Acc, 2 Stabilizers and 3 thunder maneuvers add an insignificant 65, but I'd have to full time 3 thunder manuevers to achieve this which would cannibalize my own DPS

Ilvl 128 content requires around 1.1k Accuracy to be capping acc, which requires COR or BRD/Acc Gear/Food. Of those 3 we have access to 1.5 of them, food and some pet:Acc gear. Shiromochi +1 is 15% acc, so 862 acc. We'd have to have 238 accuracy to be able to cap hit rate against anything endgame. Pet food was a start, but not sufficient. Beast pets also have around <800 base acc.

Parameter boosted Dragoons, by the way, have accuracy of 900+. A job a whole lot less reliant on their pet.

Furthermore, keeping our automatons alive is nigh impossible, they have no way to protect themselves, we have one ability to heal them, and they have low hp. Armor Plates help, but not really. They need some stronger resistance to AoE.

Now, I see two solutions here, give base pets a big boost, not requiring food. Or, let outside buffs effect our pet. You have proven this is possible with Pet food, and a 'bug' in the past where pets could receive Samba. Then re purpose the pet rolls for COR, because with 2 rolls and no Pianismo type ability it is very unlikely the Pet Acc and Pet Atk rolls are doing anything for anyone. Pets are depressing even in fodder content, our mages are stupid, our melee are weak and our "tank" frame has no way to sustain itself and falls to pieces pretty quickly.

You cite needing to ensure that balance is kept between the jobs, but Puppetmaster has never really been balanced, nearly every job can do something better. Same with Beastmaster. For jobs that hold such complexity and promise it's so depressing to see them go overlooked so frequently and so aggressively. I mean, you're still putting puppetmaster on mage gear. 8 years later. 8 freaking years.

[Mitruya]

I'm so grateful to you and Shinron for bringing all this to the devs' attention in an articulate way.

[Krysten]

i wish SE would explain why they put us in mage gear did they think wed be smn's? but i agree its a bummer haste II ius so low prioity at least give us a manuver where we can force a priority

[Elvyn]

I couldn't like/agree with what you said Balloon any more if I tried XD Haste II was sadly another sidenote for PUP as I doubt any of the Devs use the job as if they did having HII so late on the priority list is glaringly obvious fault. RDM Frame still cast's Shell but it is the last buff, by then you're stoneskin or Phalanx has defiantly worn off.

All frames need some major regeneration to keep them relevant to current content. But SE (Like 99% of the players on XI) Like the PLD, WHM, BLM, THF, RNG setup and generally ignore the idea of any other job being relevant until the supporters of other jobs start to make a fuss. As for the balance argument, I really don't see it the way SE see's it, after 8 years the only people who do and will play pup are those who remember lvling solo with C H2H and WHM pup only curing. No amount of overpowering will turn it into a bandwagon job (Unless you count Salvage).

That's just my opinion though, I could be very jaded XD

[Tesahade]

So it does seem something is broken or maybe has been for a while. When we first got buffs on pet i used 1 wind manu to force RDM head to cast it since i had a problem with im always castin other crap. it seems that system no longer works idk why but i honestly havent been usin the RDM head at all so idk how long it hasnt been workin

[Balloon]

So it does seem something is broken or maybe has been for a while. When we first got buffs on pet i used 1 wind manu to force RDM head to cast it since i had a problem with im always castin other crap. it seems that system no longer works idk why but i honestly havent been usin the RDM head at all so idk how long it hasnt been workin

I can't speak for the forcing haste, but I know for a fact it used to cast Shell 5 after Protect 5. It's backwards that it doesn't. I haven't used RDM frame in a long time either, I can't stand it nuking when I'm low on hp, or it's low on mp. Or when I'm full on HP and it's full on MP because its nukes are terrible.

[Tetsujin]

I typically try to pull out a DAD immediately after Phalanx gets cast in order to get that fast haste.

Anyway, setting Haste II after Phalanx is clearly supposed to be a counter measure against people trying to quickly give themselves Haste II on the Stormwaker head, then switching out to a different frame. This is understandable but still stupid, given how quickly Stoneskin will peel off, especially when the automaton suddenly decides that a resisted Thunder IV (even with Scanner on!) is more important than buffs.

Is there a reasonable solution? I don't think so; it's probably gonna stay this way to prevent PUPs from abusing the system.

Gonna do some testing to see if maneuvers prioritize Haste (why didn't I think of that before?) but I doubt it. Obviously three wind maneuvers does nothing to prioritize haste, but I wanted to check it just in case.

Edit: Forgot that Haste was already in the same place in the casting priority anyway. Woops.

[Balloon]

I don't know if it will never change, that's been the order for a while (Stoneskin > Phalanx > Haste) And it suggests that all they did was replace Haste with Haste 2. I don't think it's necessarily a counter measure, I mean, BLU has Haste II, so even if we swapped back to WHM frame it's not exactly broken. In fact, it's a lot of work for a little gain if we have to do it every 3 minutes.

I mean, Haste II doesn't overwrite Haste I, so it just seems like a sloppy job. I didn't think about DAD for getting Haste II off, but it's still not an effective solution I feel.

It screams of last minute - Oh yeah let's just add Haste II to where haste I used to be on the frame, and not think about how that'll effect anything.

I'd like to see all of the frames get a good looking at, BLM Frame is superflous at the minute, Harlequin is too, PLD Frame is eh, and RNG frame needs a damage buff to be in line with the increased WS Damage. Then all the mage frames need an AI adjustment, trusts are doing better than we are, so that's not good.

[Tetsujin]

I'll add as a sidenote: I'm surprised people are complaining about Haste II being an afterthought to Stormwaker. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that we got the spell at all -- it's not like we got Bio III, Slow II, or anything else. Even if it was an afterthought, it's a crazy awesome one.

[Balloon]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with that sentiment. It just could be implemented a bit better, is all.

But that's indicative of a much bigger problem with puppetmaster, rather than the addition itself

[Camate]

Greetings,


It's fantastic that we were given haste 2! Thank you for that.

The RDM frame has it placed last on it's priority of enhancements (Meaning if you're fighting anything that can break stoneskin it'll never really get cast) and it doesn't think to overwrite haste 1, meaning if you're using a whm trust it's often just gonna get uncast.


Currently, the Stormwaker Y-700 prioritizes the buffs it chooses starting from the ones that protect the player first. However, we informed the development team about your suggestion for the priority of casting and they will be looking into prioritizing Haste II over Stoneskin.


Furthermore, keeping our automatons alive is nigh impossible, they have no way to protect themselves, we have one ability to heal them, and they have low hp. Armor Plates help, but not really. They need some stronger resistance to AoE.


Compared to other pets, automaton defense is already quite high and it’s also possible for them to apply Protect and Shell to further enhance their resilience, so the development team does not have any plans at the moment to increase their resistance against AoE.
*The development team will be looking into making it to automatons cast Protect and Shell on themselves.

Additionally as a side note, we’ll be looking into whether we can add other means for the Valoredge frame to generate enmity.

[Minikom]

cast protect and shell on itself should be something cool, i agree about haste II > stonekin but if they want protect payer phalax should be first then stoneskin

[Eital]

I think even Phalanx > Haste II > Stoneskin would be a far better priority than what it currently is.

[Balloon]

Firstly, that's great. Thank you.

I urge you to reconsider about defense issue. Our Automatons are paper, the only one with palatable defense is the PLD automaton, but his attack power is weak and it's unpalatable to use him. You cite Wyverns needing a defense but, but they really really don't in comparison. They have a lot more tools to keep them alive and can be palatable without their pet.

I went to AA Elvaan the other day. The average life of my pet was ridiculous, stacking Armor Plates and Spamming Repair. This was on easy.

I'm glad you've heard my complaints, but I feel there's a lot missing about the AI and accuracy/Attack/ Survivability issues. I won't argue there's not a lot of DEF there, I'll argue that that DEF is pointless when automatons can't be healed by outside people and are on a 2minute timer.



Compared to other pets, automaton defense is already quite high and it’s also possible to apply Protect and Shell to further enhance their resilience, so the development team does not have any plans at the moment to increase their resistance against AoE.


How? It doesn't do this. You have said this like it currently applies Protect and Shell to itself, or that we can apply protect/shell to it. We cannot. Please address this.

I worry about the dev teams understanding of the job if they believe we can buff pets already, because we absolutely cannot. WHM auto doesn't cast a ra version of it's spells, it Protects you exclusively. RDM casts Stoneskin and Phalanx on you, but not itself.

Again, don't get me wrong, appreciate the response, but I'd really appreciate it if you spoke to the devs and informed them that, no, Automatons cannot currently Protect/Shell itself, nor can we protect/shell it. We can't buff them at all, it's an issue that's come up several times. It is no surprise that some jobs sit in a state of disrepair when the Devs appear to not even have a design document about them or a basic understanding of what they can/cannot do.

You know what's hilarious about this post? Wyverns can get Protect/Shell via Spirit Link. GG.

[Tennotsukai]

Compared to other pets, automaton defense is already quite high and it’s also possible to apply Protect and Shell to further enhance their resilience, so the development team does not have any plans at the moment to increase their resistance against AoE.


No, no, no, no, no... The auto's defense is terrible. Please, at least consider increasing their max hp.

[Balloon]

No, no, no, no, no... The auto's defense is terrible. Please, at least consider increasing their max hp.

You mustn't be casting Protect/Shell on it. Did you not know that that was ALWAYS possible. </sigh>

[Mitruya]

I was gonna say, an automaton that can buff itself/be buffed is news to me.
I really don't understand how players can continually say "I can't keep my automaton alive" and "we suffer in endgame, if we can get in at all," and then have the dev team turn around and talk total BS about the job like they don't even know how it works.

[Balloon]

http://i.imgur.com/5hokZYL.png

Exceedingly Liberal use of the word "high" there Square, less than an ilvl 116 player with Protect. You actually can't give us the runaround with that anymore, we can check. That's the automaton we'd most use.

It gets a bit higher with Paladin, but not excessively, and they also don't have access to the same level of PDT gear, shadows, cures and other things to mitigate damage. So yeah, not really "High"

also, again, just throwing this out there. 119 wyvern with parameter boost has like 951 accuracy and about 960 attack. 951 accuracy vs 774 with an ilvl 119 automaton and Regimen mitts.

Moreover:::

Level 99 Automatons:
Code:
Stormwaker HP - 1040 HP w/Food+1 - 1064 (HP+24)
Sharpshot HP - 1239 HP w/Food+1 - 1266 (HP+27)
Harlequin HP - 1621 HP w/Food+1 - 1651 (HP+30)
Valoredge HP - 1963 HP w/Food+1 - 1999 (HP+36)
Level 99 Jug Pets
Code:
BraveHeroGlenn HP - 3990 HP w/Food+1 - 4010 (HP+20)
CrudeRaphie HP - 4212 HP w/Food+1 - 4232 (HP+20)
Bugeyed Broncha HP - 4912 HP w/Food+1 - 4936 (HP+24)
DapperMac HP - 5542 HP w/Food+1 - 5568 (HP+26,

HP differences.

SwoopingZhivago: ilv119 Def 756 HP5544
PonderingPeter: ilvl 119 Def832 HP5544
Aged Angus: ilvl119 Def983 HP5434

Notice the incongruity. Look at that HP compared to ours, I mean, it's not even comparable. My sharpshot has 1600 hp. It'll take one or two AoE vs Beastmasters several. But they have nearly the same DEF.

And further proof, not that anyone that has played the job for more than 5 seconds needs it.
http://i.imgur.com/U12YBdO.png

[Mitruya]

Out of curiosity, I changed to DRG, equipped Upukirex and ran outside for /checkparam. My wyvern has 733 defense, which is a tad more than Balloon's example.

[Balloon]

Out of curiosity, I changed to DRG, equipped Upukirex and ran outside for /checkparam. My wyvern has 733 defense, which is a tad more than Balloon's example.

Which is without any parameter boosting, try Wyvern Def * (960/CurrentWyvernAttack). Then add the bonus from Protect/Shell from Spirit Link. That's how high you can probably expect it to get.

Ignoring that though, I mean.. slowclap. 3 more def than us and still getting a def boost. Bravo.

[Balloon]

No, no, no, no, no... The auto's defense is terrible. Please, at least consider increasing their max hp.

You can increase your automaton hp by 100 using job points. Please look forward to it. Fixed.

[Camate]

Apologies for the confusion with the way the comment was written about Protect and Shell. It should have read "it’s also possible for them to apply Protect and Shell to further enhance their resilience" and I've made edits to my post.

With that said though, I'll continue to pass along your feedback to the development team about automaton's defensive capabilities.

[Balloon]

That's the problem though, they can't apply Protect And Shell to themselves, it does nothing to enhance their defensive capability

Furthermore, if they could (which again, they absolutely cannot) then it would apply to 2 of our frames out of 5. In a party scenario you're unlikely to use those frames, also, so it wouldn't help in the slightest.

Thank you for sending the feedback, I'd also like you to mention the disparity between player Acc/Atk, and pet acc/attack. And some of the more egregious AI issues for the WHM Frame.

Please clarify what you mean with the protect and shell thing, because it appears to be an error currently.

[Karbuncle]

I would say, perhaps they may be assuming you're using some form of defensive Attachments... anyway, each pet has its own form of defensive protection.

Avatars have innate 50% PDT.

BST Jugs have a lot of HP

Wyverns have a lot of bonuses to help them survive (and more to come)

Automatons have access to a lot of defensive Attachments that increase their PDT, MDT, allow the use of Stoneskin, and they can cure themselves.

Each one has their strong points, but i do agree Automatons go down like paper, just like a player would, because you cannot cure them yourself.

[Mitruya]

Which is without any parameter boosting, try Wyvern Def * (960/CurrentWyvernAttack). Then add the bonus from Protect/Shell from Spirit Link. That's how high you can probably expect it to get.

Ignoring that though, I mean.. slowclap. 3 more def than us and still getting a def boost. Bravo.

Yeah, I was just curious what the base def level was, after that bizarre dev statement about "automaton defense is higher than other pets." What pets are they comparing to? It's obviously not true. (Along with the still incorrect statement about being able to buff themselves.)
On the other hand, wyverns die just as easily despite all the other stuff you pointed out. Then we're left as a gimp DD with a polearm for 20 minutes. I guess SE is throwing us a bone because they wont reduce the recast? I dunno.
Still, it's no excuse not to boost automaton defense also, and/or give us a JA like Spirit Link since they can't be buffed.

[Balloon]

Maybe, but they referred to casting Protect/Shell twice already. Casting is a pretty strong indicator they mean the spells. Which is depressing that they corrected themselves with another mistake :(

[Zhronne]

I can understand their concern of making Pets too strong with defense, would promote abuse of cheap "pet only" strategies to defeat some content and they clearly don't want them.
What they should do is what they've done in other MMOs, make so all pets take reduced from AoE which are not specifically targeted on them, and make that reduction BIG, not something like -5% lol

[Balloon]

I can understand their concern of making Pets too strong with defense, would promote abuse of cheap "pet only" strategies to defeat some content and they clearly don't want them.
What they should do is what they've done in other MMOs, make so all pets take reduced from AoE which are not specifically targeted on them, and make that reduction BIG, not something like -5% lol

Absolutely the kind of thing I had in mind! Something so that I can get my automaton to survive til the next Repair recast is up!

It's a problem with the game, the content the release is so focused on unmitigable AoE damage that shaves off anywhere between 80-150% of a players HP that it's no surprise a lot of jobs are left in the cold. There's a reason rangers are used more frequently now.

I really would like a response to that Protect thing, it has worried me greatly, I don't want the devs thinking we can do something we can't, especially because it seems they decided that we won't get a much needed boost because of it.

[Elvyn]

Originally I brushed Camate's comment off as a "They have Mana Jammer and Armor Plating". However after making a addendum to his original post but still keeping the original phrasing of it, I don't see how these attachments can be considered pro/shell. The only other thing I could think of it maybe with RDM and WHM frame there is a way to make the Auto's cast it upon themselves.
Which still doesn't address the issue regarding PLD/RNG frames... so I'm at a loss.

[Tennotsukai]

You can increase your automaton hp by 100 using job points. Please look forward to it. Fixed.

I know but more is better.

[Mitruya]

I can understand their concern of making Pets too strong with defense, would promote abuse of cheap "pet only" strategies to defeat some content and they clearly don't want them.

So MNK-only or RNG-only strategies aren't cheap? Having only 6 or 7 jobs relevant in the game and all your strategies around them isn't cheap? Players botting or dual-boxing their WHMs and SCHs or BRDs for runs isn't cheap? Somehow the world is gonna end if a DNC BLU PUP BST etc. etc. enters a party?
And let's not get started on SAM and the WS update...

[Mitruya]

Originally I brushed Camate's comment off as a "They have Mana Jammer and Armor Plating". However after making a addendum to his original post but still keeping the original phrasing of it, I don't see how these attachments can be considered pro/shell. The only other thing I could think of it maybe with RDM and WHM frame there is a way to make the Auto's cast it upon themselves.
Which still doesn't address the issue regarding PLD/RNG frames... so I'm at a loss.

No frame can cast ANYTHING on itself.
Also you can't exactly macro in -PDT/-MDT attachments on the fly like you can with player gear either. Having them equipped isn't the same as all the buffs and advantage a player has.

[Balloon]

I know but more is better.

That was tinged with an incredible amount of sarcasm, our job points are beyond useless so far.

[Camate]

Alrighty, I double checked with the development team. As everyone has been mentioning, currently automatons cannot cast Protect and Shell on themselves, but the team is looking into making this possible. I'll keep you posted once there is more information. Apologies again about the confusion!

Additionally, I have some other information regarding puppetmaster to share.


Automaton weapon skill adjustments
We’ll be making adjustments to automaton weapon skills in the August version update to increase the value of being able to fight alongside your automaton.


Target Marker adjustments
Previously we received reports that the Target Marker was not functioning properly while in high-tier mission battlefields, and we’ve confirmed the issue. The team is currently looking into how to address this. There is a possibility that the way the Target Marker functions will be heavily changed. (However, we’ll be careful not to make it so the stats are reduced.)


Tactical Processor adjustments
Coinciding with the aforementioned Target Marker adjustments we will also be making long awaited adjustments to the Tactical Processor.

[Balloon]

The japanese dev tracker also mentioned adjusting Attuner. That might help. I really hope so.

I don't see how beneficial having the WHM auto or RDM auto having protect, they shouldn't be getting hit in the first place, perhaps allowing us to transfer our buffs like Spirit Link might be a better solution? That way we can transfer Prot/Shell to some of the other Automatons that stand closer to the mobs.

Again, not to sound unappreciative, having some Shell for our WHM might make some solo's easier, but we don't use the whm auto in party scenarios, where those changes would be most beneficial.

[Balloon]

Please add weaponskills Shield Subverter and Sixth Element to our Automaton.

Add anything to make Magic Mortar go away.

Please.

[Mitruya]

Yes! Sixth Element is kinda cool.

[MDenham]

Please add weaponskills Shield Subverter and Sixth Element to our Automaton.

Add anything to make Magic Mortar go away.

Please.Would you settle for them returning Magic Mortar to its original damage values instead (which were actually pretty impressive)?

[Balloon]

Yes I would, it makes light, but currently it's just useless :(

[Elvyn]

No frame can cast ANYTHING on itself.
Also you can't exactly macro in -PDT/-MDT attachments on the fly like you can with player gear either. Having them equipped isn't the same as all the buffs and advantage a player has.

Actually frames are able to cast on themselves, cure's being the most obvious, but also WHM can cast Regen IV on itself and BLM cast's dread spikes (the latter is less important as it doesn't cast on player originally).

But I agree that the attachments don't function as pro/shell as I mentioned in my post. Would be nice to increase frames elemental load, with job-points for example.

Also the content of Camets post while awesome, is slightly concerning, the frames I can see most benefiting from Pro/Shell are the RNG/PLD frame, which have no casting abilities. Unless a player would be able to cast Pro/Shell on them, which would be much more useful.

[Draylo]

lol I remember that Magic Mortar phase when it was a lot of dmg. That is pretty typical dmg now though, don't see a problem changing it back.

[Mitruya]

Actually frames are able to cast on themselves, cure's being the most obvious, but also WHM can cast Regen IV on itself and BLM cast's dread spikes (the latter is less important as it doesn't cast on player originally).

But I agree that the attachments don't function as pro/shell as I mentioned in my post. Would be nice to increase frames elemental load, with job-points for example.

Also the content of Camets post while awesome, is slightly concerning, the frames I can see most benefiting from Pro/Shell are the RNG/PLD frame, which have no casting abilities. Unless a player would be able to cast Pro/Shell on them, which would be much more useful.

Whoops. You are correct. Shows how long it's been since I used a mage frame. ;p I suppose to clarify I meant protective buffs (other than Dread Spikes). I don't remember ever seeing the WHM frame cast Regen on anybody other than a player. *shrugs*
But we're all in agreement that NO frame casts Pro/Shell on itself or can have Pro/Shell put on it (which would be helpful for the non-mage frames).

[Balloon]

Whoops. You are correct. Shows how long it's been since I used a mage frame. ;p I suppose to clarify I meant protective buffs (other than Dread Spikes). I don't remember ever seeing the WHM frame cast Regen on anybody other than a player. *shrugs*
But we're all in agreement that NO frame casts Pro/Shell on itself or can have Pro/Shell put on it (which would be helpful for the non-mage frames).

It's the thing that currently has a monster's attention, that a level 99 player would see as Decent Challenge for Regen, including itself :)

[Elvyn]

Iv also seen Punchy cast Regen IV on the main tank during BCNM's if I'm not the main target.
Indeed those are the only two "buffs" iv seen, cant even get my RDM to stoneskin itself, which seems odd lol

MM can do some decent DMG but it take a lot of preparing, I like using Mana converter to take it into Red HP just before to get 1k+ but even then if your to quick with mana converter it will cure itself before WS

[Balloon]

Iv also seen Punchy cast Regen IV on the main tank during BCNM's if I'm not the main target.
Indeed those are the only two "buffs" iv seen, cant even get my RDM to stoneskin itself, which seems odd lol

MM can do some decent DMG but it take a lot of preparing, I like using Mana converter to take it into Red HP just before to get 1k+ but even then if your to quick with mana converter it will cure itself before WS

But.. Knockout does 1k straight up and gives -eva. Putting your auto below max hp just increases the risk of not being able to DAD it.

[Mitruya]

Iv also seen Punchy cast Regen IV on the main tank during BCNM's if I'm not the main target.
Indeed those are the only two "buffs" iv seen, cant even get my RDM to stoneskin itself, which seems odd lol

Yeah I've only noticed it cast Regen on me or a tank in a party. I've had the WHM puppet fight something by itself before when I got linked aggro, and I just don't remember it buffing itself at all except cures.
And yeah I think it's weird too that the RDM puppet doesn't stoneskin/phalanx/haste itself.
Of course you can force Blaze Spikes and Stoneskin with attachments on any frame, but that's about it.

[fjamesfernandez]

Agreed as of right now our pets are just as squishy as a Loupon. If they are already have trouble of force popping buffs with Maneuvers I am not even going to ask for a command that force the automaton to move distance from aoe range but are still able to cast. in parties we have to take that extra few seconds (if using a mage auto) to deploy an x amount of distance from the mob then go finally going in for our attacks. Unless during pt emergencies dont have autos out, activate, pop light manuever for a cure and quickly deactivate them. But that then takes away from our DPS because of the delay from activating manuevers.

If Dev team can come up with augmenting the fights depending on the amount of players are in pt/alliance for delve They can do something to that extend to our automatons. Augmenting our automatons from solo/pt/alli

[Grekumah]

Apologies to keep you all waiting on the fixes for the Target Marker and Attuner attachments.

In order to fix the issues large revamps to the attachment system are necessary, so we expect this to take some time to complete.

We understand that pet accuracy is still lacking when participating in content (not only for automatons), but we are prioritizing overall boosts to pets at the moment, and we are looking into making adjustments to this with the new job point elements that are scheduled for some time after the November version update.

[Glamdring]

again, AGAIN the problem is that the math tables for pets are scaled improperly into end-game on a trait native to the job, and instead of SE troubleshooting it we players have to fix it by grind content wasting resources that could be better spent on chosen augments to our characters instead of doing bug fixes that should have happened 2 years ago when they were 1st observed. can you try to get us an acceptable reason why? because (paraphrased) "we don't feel like it" is getting kind of old and was never actually acceptable to begin with.

[fjamesfernandez]

we are looking into making adjustments to this with the new job point elements

Excuse me? So not only is the dev team going to take their time into "fixing these issues" but the only way imma get my stuff fixed is if I grind points to augment the fix? Um no, hell no. I'm sorry but that's not acceptable. Fix the issue and do something that is actually useful for once in those job points.

[Xerius]

How it read:


We understand that pet accuracy is still lacking when participating in content (not only for automatons), but we are prioritizing overall boosts to pets at the moment, and we are looking into making adjustments to this with the new job point elements that are scheduled for some time after the November version update.

How it should have read:


We understand that pet accuracy is still lacking when participating in content (not only for automatons), but we are prioritizing overall boosts to pets at the moment, and we are looking into making adjustments.

[Balloon]

Seriously. Job points are going to add at most 90 acc. (+3 * 30). We still are gonna be 100-300 below that of a player...

[fjamesfernandez]

I just dont see that helping at all. Being in Doh and Woh I dont use DD pets there.. Im already forced to use the stupid trust for songs so that I can have a better build. Food doesnt helps as much. Im not even gonna say the amount of gear sets I had to make even with having Kenkoken and ws can be just as bad D:

[Grekumah]

I apologize for the inconveniences caused by the Target Marker and Attuner bug.

We've confirmed that these two attachments are not working properly in the following content:

High-tier mission battlefields
Battlefields that require a Microcosmic Orb
Battlefields that require a Macrocosmic Orb


The bug is related to the fact that level correction takes place in these areas.

When making the monsters in these areas where level correction takes place a higher level, compared to the monsters of the same level in Adoulin areas where there is no level correction, they become way stronger. In order to avoid this, we've made adjustments and addressed this by only boosting their parameters without increasing their levels. By doing this we were able to balance the above content; however, as a result, the Target Marker and Attuner attachments are not working properly because their effects are elicited by looking at level differences.

Both of these attachments have been made based on complicated formulas, so it’s difficult to make it function in their original way for all areas, which is why it will take us a bit of time to address this.

[Donquichot]

When making the monsters in these areas where level correction takes place a higher level, compared to the monsters of the same level in Adoulin areas where there is no level correction, they become way stronger. In order to avoid this, we've made adjustments and addressed this by only boosting their parameters without increasing their levels. By doing this we were able to balance the above content

Are these adjustments already added? Or are they comming to the next September patch?

[Grekumah]

Are these adjustments already added? Or are they comming to the next September patch?

When creating these new battlefields the system was adjusted in the aforementioned way.

[Donquichot]

So basicly nothing is going to be changed? Because how it is now the automotons parameters are lower than their player counterparts. But this is not just in battlefields that have difficulty adjustments. The whole parameter boosting in certain events isnt an answer. its a bandaid that will have to be done in the future again. Why not fix this now so the developers can create content where alot more jobs can play on equal footing. The way they are 'fixing' the problem by parameter boosting in certain events is a waste of developer resources. Fix it all over the game. The way it is now developers cant reliably create content that is balanced to alot of jobs.

[Olor]

Unfortunately the devs seem allergic to fixing the base problems with pet jobs. Instead, they do all sorts of weird stuff that gets broken every update. Players have given out plenty of workable ways that the jobs could be improved and... yeah.... just bizarre things like this...

[Karbuncle]

I liked the idea of Pet rolls, from COR, but the problem is that kind of thing only works in Pet-Parties... if pets could be hit by any buffs those problems would be fixed almost entirely. But then you have disposable pets that can be fully buffed and sent to their death ad-infinum, creates a balance issue. Might even have to rework pet rolls (DRG, BST, PUP)... Companions roll seems like it could stay.

[woie]

Apologies to keep you all waiting on the fixes for the Target Marker and Attuner attachments.

In order to fix the issues large revamps to the attachment system are necessary, so we expect this to take some time to complete.

We understand that pet accuracy is still lacking when participating in content (not only for automatons), but we are prioritizing overall boosts to pets at the moment, and we are looking into making adjustments to this with the new job point elements that are scheduled for some time after the November version update.

so with one hand you say job points are something to be a boost to job but not required to play a job effectively then with the other hand you come out with this horse s***
if you want to BS us at least make it consistant

[Balloon]

I liked the idea of Pet rolls, from COR, but the problem is that kind of thing only works in Pet-Parties... if pets could be hit by any buffs those problems would be fixed almost entirely. But then you have disposable pets that can be fully buffed and sent to their death ad-infinum, creates a balance issue. Might even have to rework pet rolls (DRG, BST, PUP)... Companions roll seems like it could stay.

Thing is, that's already sorta the case now - The only thing that might affect that is MDB, but probably not. The Atk/Acc rolls are the same potency, the MAB rolls are actually higher potency. If normal rolls hit, it wouldn't make pets alone any more formidable than they are now. It'd just allow us to fight with them~

[Marada]

I kinda feel bad for the devs.......having to come up with so many excuses for why SE now supports a non-fantastical ideology of real life. Think of it as what jobs and college are(very loosely based) if you want good a good job(gear) you have to go to college(endgame) for a specific field(mnk/COR/brd/etc) but just like real life it doesn't matter how much time you put into learning into that field if you don't like it. You get your gear, but you wasted a lot of time working on something you didn't want to.

[Glamdring]

So basicly nothing is going to be changed? Because how it is now the automotons parameters are lower than their player counterparts. But this is not just in battlefields that have difficulty adjustments. The whole parameter boosting in certain events isnt an answer. its a bandaid that will have to be done in the future again. Why not fix this now so the developers can create content where alot more jobs can play on equal footing. The way they are 'fixing' the problem by parameter boosting in certain events is a waste of developer resources. Fix it all over the game. The way it is now developers cant reliably create content that is balanced to alot of jobs.

pet jobs were deliberately nerfed with the start of SoA and the trend has continued since. Much like beastmaster always called jugs 1-2 levels below master-and needed relic gloves to close that gap (assuming the jug pet could even reach the master's cap)-the SoA ilevel equipment has been at least 2 levels below the available player equipment on pup and smn. On beast and dragoon it seems a software limitation of weakened parameters has been added to called pets like jugs and dragoons to keep them weak in relation to a comparably leveled job. Now, even with job points the smart money says the pets will be continued as too weak to be viable in end-game content. For charmed pets that actually are your level the move to "balance" (which is everything EXCEPT balanced) is that your "sic" moves are much slower to activate than the pet was before charm and it's attack and accuracy are reduced, presumably as part of the mechanics of the charm. This is apparently part of a deliberate move to see that pet jobs are no more effective soloing than any other soloing job, roughly equivalent to bard. The sooner we accept that SE has decided that ALL pets are to permanently be under the effects of enfeebles-except when our 1 hours are active-the better for our digestive systems; I loved playing pet jobs but as they are currently/going forward implemented they are just giving me gas and ulcers-oh, and costing me end-game party slots.

[Grekumah]

Previously I mentioned that we would be adjusting pet accuracy with new job point elements, and I would like to add a bit more information about this.

First, on the basis that in the event the player’s item level, the pet’s level, and the content level are all the same, we feel that the proper situation is such that the pet’s attacks land if you supplement with the proper equipment and food. For example, with item level 119 equipment, if you challenge alluvion skirmish or high-tier mission battlefields at normal difficulty, they will be able to hit properly.

Currently, avatars in particular are lacking in accuracy, and for other pets as well, we understand that when trying to increase the stats for both pet and master, there will ultimately be a portion that becomes lacking. Besides the pet adjustments we have been making, we will also be looking at adjusting the master for these jobs and supplement the aspects that are lacking.

On the other hand, when it comes to high difficulty content such as high-tier mission battlefields at the difficult difficulty setting, we are looking into supplementing the aspects that are lacking for this with job points. (We’ll also be looking into special pet items and new attachments for the future.)

As we are trying to be very careful with job adjustments, we understand there are some players who are getting upset because no drastic changes can be seen right away, but we are taking in all the feedback and proceeding with adjustments as we consider the overall conditions of the game.

We’ll be continuing to make adjustments to dragoon, puppetmaster and beastmater as damage dealers, and to summoner as a support role that can also deal damage in future version updates.

Additionally, we’d like to add elements to job points that allow you to easily feel that your character is growing past level 99 besides just through item levels. Once the details have been fleshed out more we’ll introduce them to you. :cool:

[Balloon]

On the other hand, when it comes to high difficulty content such as high-tier mission battlefields at the difficult difficulty setting, we are looking into supplementing the aspects that are lacking for this with job points. (We’ll also be looking into special pet items and new attachments for the future.)

As we are trying to be very careful with job adjustments, we understand there are some players who are getting upset because no drastic changes can be seen right away, but we are taking in all the feedback and proceeding with adjustments as we consider the overall conditions of the game.

Additionally, we’d like to add elements to job points that allow you to easily feel that your character is growing past level 99 besides just through item levels. Once the details have been fleshed out more we’ll introduce them to you. :cool:

I understand the need for caution, but I sincerely don't see HOW job points will provide the necessary accuracy to alleviate the penalty we have.

Further to this, if you treat a pet as an analogue to a player.. the amount of hoops we have to jump through just to get our accuracy to acceptable levels is unacceptable. There isn't enough pet:Acc equipment that also allows us to hit (As you've already stated). Then to force us to grind the necessary ... hell of a lot of CP just to be able to become slightly more effective.. It's a little.. disappointing.

I don't have the numbers to disprove that, my automaton did have around 80-95% accuracy on Delve 1-5 (119) - But against tojil? Miss Miss Miss AoE Die. And this was with me eating Pet Acc Food, which I could have really used Curry buns or Pizza.



We’ll be continuing to make adjustments to dragoon, puppetmaster and beastmater as damage dealers, and to summoner as a support role that can also deal damage in future version updates.
we understand that when trying to increase the stats for both pet and master, there will ultimately be a portion that becomes lacking.


The main thing is HOW players buff their acc in low accuracy situations, first you have gear; we have an analogue for this but it is currently lacking. Perhaps accuracy gear should transfer a % bonus of your stats to a pet. Perhaps through a job trait. Beastmaster and Puppetmaster would get the highest tier of this trait, Dragoon would get lower tiers.

Secondly our Corsair Buffs, frankly they might as well not exist because the 75 acc and 46-51% attack on the player is simply lost. The answer to this is a fundamental reworking of the pet rolls, having them provide potent pet only effects (much like companions) to factor in the reduced efficacy of the master. Then allow buffs to effect pets. This would help their Attack and Accuracy situations immensely, and provide them to reach haste % that players are able to. This would be from Bard, Geo and Corsair. And Sambas, like they used to..

Attachments provide a problem in that we are incredibly limited in our ability to slot them. We already are at a situation where we have to omit some staples due to lack of elemental slot or being full elsewhere. While this is true of player equipment too, players have the ability to swap out equipment to suite the situation. I don't know the fix to this one. Providing more elemental slots or more slots to use as level progresses might be a good idea.



(We’ll also be looking into special pet items and new attachments for the future.)


As for attachments, there has to be something good on show for us to be willing to impede ourselves (thanks to ja delay). Maneuvers are often an objective negative when fighting, they provide fairly insubstantial boosts to our pet but hinder our ability to deal damage. The answer to that, and a boost for every job in the game, is addressing JA delay.

Some Attachment ideas:
Optic Fiber II,
Attuner II, Target Market II,
Replicant: Improve Automaton Decision making
Ersatz: All attachments act as if 1 maneuver was activated.
Empathy Box: Forces Automatons to consider other people, enables -ra spells (Protectra), accessions applicable buffs (Consumes 1 Water Maneuver).
Soother: Converts % of health recovered into a stoneskin effect.
(I reread Can androids dream of electric sheep. Can you tell?)


One thing that really bothers me, and it's going back to the original post.. DD AI for automatons is utterly terrible. Why is my pet holding TP til 150% without inhibitor. There needs to be more frequent checks done, because as it stands it's not only pitiful damage, but pitiful damage that's intentionally hindered.


Succintly:
Job Points aren't enough. Players don't have to jump through those hoops, why do we?
Buffs should hit Pets. So should cures.
Gear should affect pets more than it currently does.
New Attachments need considerations in the attachment system.
AI BAD.

[Rwolf]

I'll speak for myself at least that it concerns me the development are taking this route to fix pet jobs as damage dealers.

Regarding the response to satisfaction with current Pet Accuracy
I think using Alluvion Skirmish and Normal difficulty on high-tier mission battlefields while wearing pet accuracy gear and using pet food is a not a good example of being satisfactory. A non-pet damage dealer or even the master can do this without much effort or food. Just 119 weapons alone with 115-117 gear is usually enough. The same should be for pets, if they are 119, they should hit with the same amount of accuracy/magic accuracy they are being summoned at that a player can easily reach without adding accuracy food and pet specific equipment which makes the master suffer. .

In this response, the dev. team agrees a portion ultimately becomes lacking, but it should not have to be. Why should the master suffer stats at the expense of the pet? Especially when your recent vision is to make pet jobs deal more damage over time than normal damage dealers at the expense of keeping their pet alive. Either the master's stats need to influence the pet or better hybrid gear should be made so that neither side is penalized.

Regarding fixing known pet discrepancies with Job Points.
More and more the dev. team is going against their own words of stating that Job Points are meant to be a casual way to augment/enhance your skills. Fixes do not belong in this category, you are ultimately saying in order to participate in difficult content you need to farm job points, which other damage dealers do not need to do.

Pets don't have equipment (sans Automatons in a way). Pets also aren't affected by songs, rolls (unless you roll specifically only for pets), geomancy, blood pacts and other support effects like Warcry, Blood Rage, Circle abilities, etc (except Empathy/Spirit Link to Wyvern). The point is that job points especially in the case of Puppetmaster is not the proper solution. Attachments should be the equivalent of those effects. They are not easy to come by in some instances.

Summary. TL;DR

Please raise pet accuracy and magic accuracy natively to compete at events like Alluvion Skirmish/Normal Difficulty high-tier mission battlefields. You should only need to summon 119 pets to have a decent (not necessarily capped) accuracy rate.
Work on better hybrid equipment for pet jobs so they aren't ultimately lacking.
Add new attachments to compensate for lack of the ability to transfer buffs to the automaton for more difficult content.
Please stop using job points to fix known issues. It seems entirely unfair given it's not a requirement on other jobs to do so to compete in harder content.
Stick to your vision that pet jobs will deal more damage over time in compensation for maintaining their pets.

[Xsilver]

+1 Accuracy per Job point, capping at +10 and eventually +30 pet accuracy in the future is not enough accuracy to supplement Pets in high difficulty content.

[Mitruya]

^Agreed with all that above.
Please don't make new attachments insanely hard and expensive to come by. Same with nice "pet:" gear.
Don't punish us by making us work harder to compete for a DD slot.

[Balloon]

If you do go down the Job point route (PlzNoThx) then atleast have the job point be similar to Accuracy Percent, or Ignore Enemy Evasion percent.

But you know, main point to take away from this is 'don't adjust pet jobs via Job points.' Fix them first, then augment them with Job points. Please. Thanks.

[Glamdring]

Previously I mentioned that we would be adjusting pet accuracy with new job point elements, and I would like to add a bit more information about this.

First, on the basis that in the event the player’s item level, the pet’s level, and the content level are all the same, we feel that the proper situation is such that the pet’s attacks land if you supplement with the proper equipment and food. For example, with item level 119 equipment, if you challenge alluvion skirmish or high-tier mission battlefields at normal difficulty, they will be able to hit properly.

Currently, avatars in particular are lacking in accuracy, and for other pets as well, we understand that when trying to increase the stats for both pet and master, there will ultimately be a portion that becomes lacking. Besides the pet adjustments we have been making, we will also be looking at adjusting the master for these jobs and supplement the aspects that are lacking.

On the other hand, when it comes to high difficulty content such as high-tier mission battlefields at the difficult difficulty setting, we are looking into supplementing the aspects that are lacking for this with job points. (We’ll also be looking into special pet items and new attachments for the future.)

As we are trying to be very careful with job adjustments, we understand there are some players who are getting upset because no drastic changes can be seen right away, but we are taking in all the feedback and proceeding with adjustments as we consider the overall conditions of the game.

We’ll be continuing to make adjustments to dragoon, puppetmaster and beastmater as damage dealers, and to summoner as a support role that can also deal damage in future version updates.

Additionally, we’d like to add elements to job points that allow you to easily feel that your character is growing past level 99 besides just through item levels. Once the details have been fleshed out more we’ll introduce them to you. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XX8Q1aAIXg

so other jobs get to use their job points to improve their performance, we get to use ours to try-and fail-to achieve even the low end of mediocrity amongst unbuffed jobs. yeah, that seems fair.

http://global3.memecdn.com/KILL-ME-PLEASE_o_95747.jpg

[Donquichot]

Previously I mentioned that we would be adjusting pet accuracy with new job point elements, and I would like to add a bit more information about this.

First, on the basis that in the event the player’s item level, the pet’s level, and the content level are all the same, we feel that the proper situation is such that the pet’s attacks land if you supplement with the proper equipment and food. For example, with item level 119 equipment, if you challenge alluvion skirmish or high-tier mission battlefields at normal difficulty, they will be able to hit properly.

Currently, avatars in particular are lacking in accuracy, and for other pets as well, we understand that when trying to increase the stats for both pet and master, there will ultimately be a portion that becomes lacking. Besides the pet adjustments we have been making, we will also be looking at adjusting the master for these jobs and supplement the aspects that are lacking.

On the other hand, when it comes to high difficulty content such as high-tier mission battlefields at the difficult difficulty setting, we are looking into supplementing the aspects that are lacking for this with job points. (We’ll also be looking into special pet items and new attachments for the future.)

As we are trying to be very careful with job adjustments, we understand there are some players who are getting upset because no drastic changes can be seen right away, but we are taking in all the feedback and proceeding with adjustments as we consider the overall conditions of the game.

We’ll be continuing to make adjustments to dragoon, puppetmaster and beastmater as damage dealers, and to summoner as a support role that can also deal damage in future version updates.

Additionally, we’d like to add elements to job points that allow you to easily feel that your character is growing past level 99 besides just through item levels. Once the details have been fleshed out more we’ll introduce them to you. :cool:

-First of all. Alluvion Skirmish and Normal Difficulty High-Tier battlefields Difficulty SHOULD NOT be the measure stick for having enough accuracy aslong as you have all the pet:accurracy gear and food. This just means we will never be able to participate in Very Difficult High-Tier Battlefields.

Is it so hard to balance content to where we can hit the toughest content available provided we got all the pet: accurracy available and are using pet:accuracy foods? When you keep balancing our job to the point we can only hit stuff on Normal we will always be behind on other damage dealing jobs. This is not creating balance at all!

-Secondly supplementing our faults with job points so we can go from normal tier to the highest tier is too big of a road. you would have to give us 150 acurracy to our pets with job points capped. This would mean +5 acurracy to our pets with every job point upgrade.

While this would work this job points SHOULD NOT be fixes to a job! It should enhance them. This basicly is a waste of a job point category which could have been something entirely better.

The whole stance the development team has against pet job classes is not helping. I would ask them to change their point of view, but years of asking to fix this has fallen onto their deaf ears.

[geekgirl101]

Job points, are you KIDDING me?! Have you any idea how long it takes to earn a single job point as a pet job? In fact have you ever listened to the /shouts in Jeuno and Adoulin for capacity point farming? I've yet to hear someone shout out "[Mho Gates] [Capacity Point] farm [do you need it]? 3/6 BST SMN DRG [Anything]!" Basically we're left out to rot by ourselves whilst bards and corsairs get all the attention.

And as the poster above me stated, job points should be to further improve our jobs, not fix or replace what's missing.

[Balloon]

I don't even want to say it's about the ability to farm Capacity points, though I appreciate what you're saying. I could probably get a capacity points party, slower, sure.

It's more about identifying and problem, saying that it is a problem, then saying suck it up and farm these things to fix it. If you know something is an issue you fix it. You fix it at it's core, because it is a core problem with the job.

No other job requires you to farm job points in order to be complete, that's my main philosophical objection.

[Elvyn]

Ok, maybe i'm missing something here (Other than the MOB!!! Pun intended) but I really don't see why the DEV's are putting so much time and effort into just sticking Autos with a little bit more ACC/RACC. No ones asking for GodMode Auto's just a little bit more ACC/RACC and the longer and more complex(Read; Stupid) ideas the DEV teams comes up with to distract us just makes them just even more incompetent.

Come on.. what is really the issue with increasing Autos accuracy gradient just a little?

[Glamdring]

Come on.. what is really the issue with increasing Autos accuracy gradient just a little?

keeping the non-pet jobs from QQing when pet jobs outperform them again. you really needed to ask?