View Full Version : Dragon Jug Pets
On the BG dev tracker discussion, someone stated that SE should add a puk jug, which got me thinking, will SE ever allow bst to obtain dragon type jugs? Dragons are wild beast, as opposed to undead, bombs, gargoyles. Puks are indeed charmable; but they are dragon type mobs. Bst could gain sam's circle effect iirc. However, these effects are available at 5, hence you could sub them np. They are not exclusive JAs or traits iirc, actually, blu can gain animal killer traits and a plethora of gear has killer traits on them (Not circle effects though). This may be far-fetched, but these monsters are indeed beast; several foes have managed to tame dragons type mobs, notably the bst mobs in dyna xarcabard.
A puk jug would have some utility, such as being able to regain tp (Bleh, ready meter XD) and absorbing wind damage. Zephyr mantle is an extremely useful ability and Wind shear would be pretty convenient for salvage farming. However, puks moves are pretty sub-par dmg wise. Personally, I would not be too thrilled if a puk were announced.
They already made a dragon type mob charmable (puks), hence opened the door for speculation. Some bst are asking for a puk jug and rightly so, they are charmable mobs.
Also, SE is also notorious for implementing un-charmble monsters in jug form. A naul jug with spike flail would be awesome, perhaps the ultimate dd jug. Nice jug in a crowd of mobs or for dd purposes in general. I would prefer one of these or a wild Ajattara as opposed to a puk.
I am strictly referring to wild dragons, not their domesticated counterparts. Dragoon wyverns are able to heal and are used for utility purposes/breathe attacks with some DoT in between; not a true stand alone dd iirc. Wild dragons are more bst/jug material imo. As a bst, Jug dps is highly important. Bst are not on the same lvl of a dragoon as it pertains to dps (the master). Drgs are not true pet jobs per-se, as it pertains to controlling the pets every move.
So whats the deal with dragons? Well, SE mentioned there are still deliberating possible candidates for jug pets; I would like to make a case for dragons. 1) There is a charmable mob from the family; obviously there is a possibility. 2) wyrm, Ajattara, and puks are fairly common. they are not legendary mobs per-se, aka bahamut. There are plenty of dragons in abyssea (Nauls are just normal mobs), puks are everywhere, and ajattara are also extremely common. 3) Dragoons should have no beef; these are wild animals; bst have no bonds with these creatures. Ajattara are known as wyvern's (drg) wild counterparts. 4) Why not? Hyra and Zilant should be off limits; there are several birds, lizard, beast, and plantoids whom are non-jug material; notably the nakuuls. However, these dragons are not part of any storyline/special content; just run of the mill monsters any adventurer can encounter by entering abyssea or other zones.
When the word wyrm comes up, bst and players alike my gasp/shake their heads at the notion of them being implemented in jug form due to the fafnir and vrtras of the world. However, when you sit back and observe the run of the mill wyrm (Naul), it is not so far-fetched imo.
I don't see why dragons could not be implemented as pets; the only controversial aspect is the killer traits, but those are so common now and days. Irrc, Blu has ours. The only thing that may change is killer instinct, it will now work on kindred esque mobs (Dragons get this, right?) with a dragon jug, not a big deal imo. Players can sub it at lvl5. There were times were I triggered a random non-bst intimidation effect on bst, but had no clue what triggered it.
Mitruya
07-07-2014, 08:53 PM
I would not be opposed to a puk jug, however do you recall a thread or two clamoring for bigger DRG wyverns? I think that would make DRGs upset, because we really want to be like Achtelle and have a bigger pet. (and you know, one that actually stays alive and is useful...)
It'd be pretty cool actually for BSTs to get some big jugs along the lines of the turtle, say a scorpion or roc or wivre or whatever else has been suggested.
But a dragon, wyrm or wyvern? Nooooo ;P We are the dragon-master, not BSTs.
A puk jug wouldn't bother me though, personally.
ETA: I'm one clear away from getting into Dyna-Xarc so I'm not familiar with those mobs. I just looked them up on BGwiki and see that some of them are listed as BSTs. That's interesting.
Malthar
07-07-2014, 09:27 PM
The bst's have wyvern pets.
Mitruya
07-07-2014, 10:10 PM
Yeah, I'd never seen them before so it was the first I'd heard of it.
Karbuncle
07-08-2014, 01:30 AM
BST usually cannot charm "Intelligent" enemies. Enemies with brain power a step above primal instinct, there are some exceptions to be gleaned from this, such as Arcana type mobs, and certain "Large" variants, such as Rocs. That said, an actual Wyrm, even a Mini like Nauls, would likely be impossible. I have a thread around here about an idea on how to make Uncharmable mobs a Jug, it involved Raising them in a "Chocobo Raising" sort of way, allowing you to register them as a special pet you could summon forth during your 2 hour (to no obsolete regular jugs).
They could just throw the pattern to the wind of course and make a Naul pet... but anyway, on point, Puks are charmable presumably because they do not possess the intelligence of Wyrms, despite being dragons, could be seen as a Jug pet with no broken lore.
I kind of want a Twitherym jug even though WoW will hate the idea cause they aren't a very strong DD mob. They can be charmed though and they look super cute.
ON TOPIC: I'd love a puk jug
Really though I'd prefer if they just uncapped the jugs we had and changed BST affinity to something useful rather than an excuse to gimp us.
BST usually cannot charm "Intelligent" enemies. Enemies with brain power a step above primal instinct, there are some exceptions to be gleaned from this, such as Arcana type mobs, and certain "Large" variants, such as Rocs. That said, an actual Wyrm, even a Mini like Nauls, would likely be impossible. I have a thread around here about an idea on how to make Uncharmable mobs a Jug, it involved Raising them in a "Chocobo Raising" sort of way, allowing you to register them as a special pet you could summon forth during your 2 hour (to no obsolete regular jugs).
They could just throw the pattern to the wind of course and make a Naul pet... but anyway, on point, Puks are charmable presumably because they do not possess the intelligence of Wyrms, despite being dragons, could be seen as a Jug pet with no broken lore.
I did not say charm; puks are also intelligent and able to understand human language. There are a plethora of uncharmable mobs that are in jug form. Intelligence is irrelevant; we are not charming them, but rather, recruiting them. Griffins are majestic animals, but bst can call upon a hippo to aid them in battle. We are not manipulating them, but using a method to call upon the monster to help us. Jugs are like pop triggers, you use the contents to attract a powerful/unique entities.
Also, lore would not be broken because kindred beastmasters have tamed wild dragons while their dragoon counterparts have smaller wyverns. nauls are not part of any special lore, they are normal monsters; what lore are you referring to? I am not talking about bahamut.
Bst cannot charm hippos, turtles, or tulfaire, but they are pets. Yes dragons are smart, but we are simply calling upon them with a jug, akin to how nighogg is called upon with sweet tea.
There was a time when only few turtles roamed vanadiel, in sky and valley of sorrows; these were legendary mobs, but later, were implemented as jugs. No lore would be broken if a bst called upon a wyrm or Ajattara jug. ToA beastmen have recruited hydra and tamed cerberus; also, the lore is already broken then because kindred in dyna have ajattara pets while the dragoons have smaller wyverns. Dragons are beast, intelligent or not, puks are capable of understanding human speech, hence are intelligent as well.
I would not be opposed to a puk jug, however do you recall a thread or two clamoring for bigger DRG wyverns? I think that would make DRGs upset, because we really want to be like Achtelle and have a bigger pet. (and you know, one that actually stays alive and is useful...)
It'd be pretty cool actually for BSTs to get some big jugs along the lines of the turtle, say a scorpion or roc or wivre or whatever else has been suggested.
But a dragon, wyrm or wyvern? Nooooo ;P We are the dragon-master, not BSTs.
A puk jug wouldn't bother me though, personally.
ETA: I'm one clear away from getting into Dyna-Xarc so I'm not familiar with those mobs. I just looked them up on BGwiki and see that some of them are listed as BSTs. That's interesting.
Question though, how would drg function with a wild wyvern? I thought their pacts were with the domesticated one? Also, what about healing breathes and what not; with wild wyverns, the entire concept of pet wyverns would change.
Dragoons are masters of the lance; to my knowledge, the only dragoon whom used dragons were the highwinds. Iirc, this was a discussion in the XIV forums; pertaining to dragoon with a pet.
Beastmasters are masters of the nature; befriended beast. Several mobs of the dragon family are natural. Also, drg is not a pet job per-se; giving them a damaging pet while the true masters of monsters receive rabbits and grasshoppers would burn my biscuits personally. The majority of dragoons in the pet forums were asking for dragoon boost, not a bigger wyvern.
Also, bst are already able to control and tame intelligent dragons. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Puks. These mobs are thought to be produced by human beings (Artificial), but nonetheless, they are charmable intelligent entities.
Also Mitruya, we are the beastmasters, but blu can obtain our killer traits and jug moves. Bst and blu overlap, hence drg should not feel bad about us having access to the beast of the wilds. Dragons are beast. Blu has better variations our our weak ready moves, but personally, i do not hate them, it is what it is. We already have access to one of your family members. You guys are dragon killers iirc. Having a Achtelle -esque jug would make you guys more of a great dd, with a strong dd companion. As a bst, I would feel some type of way because a wild wyvern is better than any dd pet we have received.
Personally, i do not see why these monsters cannot be implemented as jugs (smaller versions).
1) Cerberus; they are said to be loyal to their master, hence trolls have tamed them.
2) Wivre
3) Ajattara
4) Naul -esque jug
I am not saying they will, but some shot down a sange/throwing adjustment due to nin's function as a fast swinger; they brought up mechanics and all that jazz; it did not make sense to some players, but SE announced a way to utilize throwing. Never say never I guess "Shrugs" I am not counting on it tho.
Edit: Imo, wild dragons are better suited for bst as opposed to dragoons.
Dragoons wyverns have specializations, as it pertains to sub jobs. Wild dragons have damaging moves; this is more bst friendly. Fang rush and spike flail would not make much sense for a dragoon pet; what about the healing abilities?
Imo, if dragoon does receive a bigger pet it should be a specialized dragon; akin to their domesticated wyvern as opposed to the wild ones. This way, drgs can keep their wyvern specializations as opposed to moves like fang rush which serve no job role purpose. Just make the wyvern bigger. Just my 2 cents.
Mitruya
07-08-2014, 04:28 AM
Oh it's been forever since I've read DRG lore about the wyvern, so I guess "master" wasn't the proper term.
Really I was just thinking that after there has been repeated requests for DRG wyvern customization (new colors, a bigger size, whatever), I think that DRGs would be unhappy to see BSTs with a dragon jug, because we are jealous of Achtelle and that 20 min recast timer really pisses us off.
Like I said, I did not know there were BST mobs in the game that had dragon pets until today.
I could more likely see a wivre or puk as a jug than a dragon or wyvern though; surely SE knows the DRGs would get in an uproar otherwise. I'm not sure if somewhere it was said that the pet would be too big or something. I really can't remember what answers SE gave (if any) to an upgraded DRG wyvern. But yeah, lately its been more about boosting what we have rather than fruitlessly asking for a pet like Bravo.
As for the healing breath, that's a good question.
And you know I support BST boosts also, I would not like to see them get left out either. I do have the job leveled and it would be nice to have a reason to play it again.
Drgs may be a little upset and i am senstive to this. Wryms are also thought to be the servants of bahamut; that is the only conflict I see as it pertains to wyrms. However, in skyrim, a loyal dragon served the dragonborn whom freed him as opposed to his superior.
However, adding a puk jug could be a mistake; because the door is open for dragon -esque jug pets. honestly, why should dragoons, whom are not true pet jobs gain a powerful pet while we get a crappy puk. Personally, i would want a naul as opposed to a puk, if a wrym is a no go, I say don't release any dragon jug at all; perhaps they may be best. However, a dragon is indeed charmable.
Dragoons could receive a larger wyvern which possess healing breathes "Shrugs" i do not see why a dragoon could not receive a larger variation of their wyvern while we get the wild ones.
Wonder what SE or devs thinks about this? I would rather see a "There is no plans to add a dragon jug or increase/we will increase drg's wyvern size" as opposed to speculation.
Leonardus
07-08-2014, 06:25 AM
A puk is perfectly acceptable as far as I can see.
In Dynamis-Xarcabard, you've got demon BSTs with wyvern familiars. That honestly, makes zero sense. Since when did demons and dragons get along?
Mitruya
07-08-2014, 06:39 AM
Hey, I'm all about equality, I'm not arguing to give DRGs a better pet while at the same time give BSTs the shaft of course. ^_^
Many things in this game don't make sense; I guess we can't look to Achtelle and the Dyna-Xarc demons for job inspiration. Just like I can't look to Lion and wish I could have her hair on my character, lol.
Keeping the little blue baby dragon is not a big deal if they would just reduce the call timer and have it survive longer/do more damage (the breaths are pointless, minus the healing part).
If SE gives BSTs a dragon jug, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, as long as they boost DRG to keep up with the other DDs or something.
A puk is perfectly acceptable as far as I can see.
In Dynamis-Xarcabard, you've got demon BSTs with wyvern familiars. That honestly, makes zero sense. Since when did demons and dragons get along?
Honestly; that is a great point. I thought dragons killed their kind? Or are killers.
I really do not understand the lore argument. The only aspect that makes some sense is wyrms being servants of bahamut. However, Hurkan is the ruler of all marajami birds, but our tulfaire, whom originated from marajami (Ibuki), has no issue kicking his a$$. Also, how is it that a smn can summon the same avatar as the one they are fighting in BCNMs? So basically, they are fighting an essence of themselves. If we were to get a Naul jug, its, loyalty would be to us; same with all jugs. We do not have to charm them, just call em with the contents of a jug. Wyrms are superior dd than puks.
Imo, if a puk is implementable, a wyrm or ajattara should be also. All are intelligent and part of the same family.
Also, what about shinryu? Thought bahamut was the "one" as it pertains to wyrms. This game has numerous contradictory elements and honestly, a wyrm jug is more sensible than a kindred befriended a dragon or avatars fighting their very essence. Dragoons have dragon killer, but befriend wyverns? huh?
Hey, I'm all about equality, I'm not arguing to give DRGs a better pet while at the same time give BSTs the shaft of course. ^_^
Many things in this game don't make sense; I guess we can't look to Achtelle and the Dyna-Xarc demons for job inspiration. Just like I can't look to Lion and wish I could have her hair on my character, lol.
Keeping the little blue baby dragon is not a big deal if they would just reduce the call timer and have it survive longer/do more damage (the breaths are pointless, minus the healing part).
If SE gives BSTs a dragon jug, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, as long as they boost DRG to keep up with the other DDs or something.
No harm, no foul, both can be done imo.
Give Drgs a bigger wyvern or boost drg, while giving us Nauls; if bst and blu can co-exist, so can drg and bst^^
Wild dragons just seem more beastmaster -esque imo.
I kind of want a Twitherym jug even though WoW will hate the idea cause they aren't a very strong DD mob. They can be charmed though and they look super cute.
ON TOPIC: I'd love a puk jug
Really though I'd prefer if they just uncapped the jugs we had and changed BST affinity to something useful rather than an excuse to gimp us.
I am on record for saying a bst skillchain; each merit and gloves increase the damage by a small percentage; 2%.
But yea, lol, I have a dd pet only mentality, lol. I would not mind a butterfly, tempestuous upheaval could be awesome in a crowd. However, I would prefer if they added a few dd oriented pets as well. I truly believe a jug's dd potential is the most important factor when implementing jugs. Big numbers will get us into pts, ask those sams and rngs^^ A naul, scorp, and wivre with their beneficial abilities intact would blow most bst's mind if we ever got these in jug form.
My hierarchy of dd jugs would look something like this; top 5 imo.
1) Naul (Spike flail^^ Also, dragon breath can still hit players 1k dmg with lvlgear)
2) Wivre (Boiling blood and crippling slam)
3) Scorpion (Sharp strike, death scissors)
4) Craklaw (Sundering Snip, Impenetrable Carapace)
5) Mantid (Preying Posture, Raptorial Claw, Exorender)
All dragons not named Hyra or Zilant are indeed implementable imo. I am not buying the lore/unimplementable statements. SE alluded to allowing sky mobs as possible jugs. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1697-What-new-Jug-Pets-would-you-like-to-see-91-99?p=191859&viewfull=1#post191859. They even mentioned the possibility of adding flans, but needed time to make the background story fit.
As it pertains to Wyrms, the storyline could be quite simple. Firstly, an addition of an item, similar to honey wine, but a jug content. Wyrms appear to like fine beverages "shrugs" Perhaps a dessert wine or something. Allow cooks to obtain this drink, which is essentially jug contents. Ingredients; royal grapes, white honey, dragon fruit, olive flower, a new type of harvested item only found in grauberg (S), where wyverns and a wyrm are known to live and a water crystal. Combining these items would create Dessert wine, which is a jug; akin to Scarlet sap, which does not read "broth." Cooks and beastmasters managed to communicate with ladybugs whom were thought to be extinct according to the lore, hence wyrms are not impossible to implement imo. This jug is not like other wyrms, he does not fly nor is he one of bahamut's henchman. His loyalty lies with the bst. He is a special entity.
Nauls are extremely powerful; I do not see why they could not be called upon by a bst. We can already charm a mob from that fourth ecosystem anyway. The wyrm would grant us a killer instinct effect to kindred; no biggie really. Blu and bst both have monster correlation and killer effects, hence overlap, it is not a big deal imo.
Karbuncle
07-08-2014, 01:33 PM
I did not say charm; puks are also intelligent and able to understand human language. There are a plethora of uncharmable mobs that are in jug form. Intelligence is irrelevant; we are not charming them, but rather, recruiting them. Griffins are majestic animals, but bst can call upon a hippo to aid them in battle. We are not manipulating them, but using a method to call upon the monster to help us. Jugs are like pop triggers, you use the contents to attract a powerful/unique entities.
Charm and BST jugs go almost entirely hand and hand with some small exceptions as you've mentioned. If you can't see the parallels between charm and jug pets the continuity of this discussion is moot. Also, I wasn't saying what you're asking for is impossible, simply that as a general thought process, BSTs can rarely charm "Large" or "Intelligent" Pets, some jugs being an exception. Beastmen have been an exception as they can do many things players can't... such as Multiple summons (avatars), and so forth, they seem to posses the ability to go beyond what we can, this is as you've plainly stated they've charmed Cerberus/Hydra, and Kindred are thralls/servants of Odin, I imagine thats why they can charm Wyverns.
Asking for a full blown Wyvern/Wyrm might be a little much, but Puks are possible, which is more or less what I said in my last post.
1) Naul (Spike flail^^ Also, dragon breath can still hit players 1k dmg with lvlgear)
2) Wivre (Boiling blood and crippling slam)
3) Scorpion (Sharp strike, death scissors)
4) Craklaw (Sundering Snip, Impenetrable Carapace)
5) Mantid (Preying Posture, Raptorial Claw, Exorender)
Pets with directional based TP moves, like spike Flail, etc will probably be hard to implement, which is why we as players didn't get any "Flail" type moves in Monstrosity. Though IDK why we haven't seen a Scorpion pet yet :I
Charm and BST jugs go almost entirely hand and hand with some small exceptions as you've mentioned. If you can't see the parallels between charm and jug pets the continuity of this discussion is moot. Also, I wasn't saying what you're asking for is impossible, simply that as a general thought process, BSTs can rarely charm "Large" or "Intelligent" Pets, some jugs being an exception. Beastmen have been an exception as they can do many things players can't... such as Multiple summons (avatars), and so forth, they seem to posses the ability to go beyond what we can, this is as you've plainly stated they've charmed Cerberus/Hydra, and Kindred are thralls/servants of Odin, I imagine thats why they can charm Wyverns.
Asking for a full blown Wyvern/Wyrm might be a little much, but Puks are possible, which is more or less what I said in my last post.
Pets with directional based TP moves, like spike Flail, Crippling Slam, etc will probably be hard to implement, which is why we as players didn't get any "Flail" type moves in Monstrosity. Though IDK why we haven't seen a Scorpion pet yet :I
Crippling slam is indeed in monstrosity, my wivre is lvl 40-ish and that moves is awesome^^ can spike as high as 600+ dmg. This is at lvl 40, keep in mind guys/gals, back in the day (pre abyssea), 500-600 rampages and raging fist was elite status in the 50s. This is why I am an advocate of powerful pet moves. If my Gambodge beetle can do rhino wreck for 800 dmg to VTs at lvl57, imagine what a jug pet could do at 99; whom possess boosted versions of those abilities (Due to the ready move boost).
Also, charm pets do not go hand in hand with bst anymore. Charm is a dead art. Ibuki, raphie, falcorr, and the toads are not charmable. Charm is a non-factor now and days. Raphie was large, so the large argument is not really valid. Large monsters in monstrosity also have smaller forms. Not sure if anyone noticed, but a few of the tigers appeared smaller than their wild counterparts, while the pugil jug was huge compared to other pugs.
I really don't care for a wyrm or wyvern jug; I just want the monsters with the powerful moves; Wivre, scorp, opo, mantid, cracklaw, gambodge beetle etc. Wivre is my top choice personally. Haste and zerk + crippling slam. I just don't see the conflict; this entire game is a contradiction, every player saved vanadiel XD. A wyrm jug is not that serious imo.
Karbuncle
07-08-2014, 02:08 PM
Crippling slam is indeed in monstrosity,
I edited out Crippling slam cause I remembered it wasn't directional. (just 3 minutes before your post :P, musta been typing as i realized it XD)
I also feel it should be noted Hydra Beastmasters have Undead Hounds as pets, which is an absolute no-no for any job.
Camate
07-10-2014, 04:52 AM
Greetings,
As another player has already pointed out, adding a dragon-type pet for beastmaster would be somewhat unfair to dragoons since their specialty is using a wyvern, which is why we have not added a dragon-type pet.
Greetings,
As another player has already pointed out, adding a dragon-type pet for beastmaster would be somewhat unfair to dragoons since their specialty is using a wyvern, which is why we have not added a dragon-type pet.
Alright, fair enough.
No dragons it is then. puks are pretty crappy anyway.
Thanks for the reply^^
Edit: One more question if I may; are bigger non-legendary mobs such as wivre and sandworms jug compatible? Or are these larger monsters a no go as-well? The adamantoise jug was pretty large and un-charmable also (Crude Raphie).
Greetings,
As another player has already pointed out, adding a dragon-type pet for beastmaster would be somewhat unfair to dragoons since their specialty is using a wyvern, which is why we have not added a dragon-type pet.
Ok, How about a Roc type pet? Since that Mithra BST in the past can run around with two of them, I'd like to see us having one?
Ok, How about a Roc type pet? Since that Mithra BST in the past can run around with two of them, I'd like to see us having one?
Yea^^ Raphie was uncharmable and pretty huge^^ However, it did not get in my way, idk....he would stand pretty far off. Not sure if it was a AI thing; but he was never a on-screen issue. Titan is pretty large also.
The sandworms and dragons (Just referencing for demonstrative purposes, dragons are a no-go) are minimized.
The bigger pets have awesome abilities; I mean, rams appear to be better than sheep. According to monstrosity, ram charge deals 300% damage while lambchop deals 200%; granted this is in monstrosity.
As it pertains to the rumbling; I usually turn that off in monstrosity.
Ophannus
07-11-2014, 03:02 AM
I think as long as it's a non sentient beast(Dragons/Demons/Undead/Arcana are all sentient) its fair game. Roc and Sandworms would be cool. I expected Behemoths too for a pet as an ultimate lv99 pet but at 99 bsts still using sheep and crabs sigh...
When the cap was 75, I fantasized about Level 99 BSTs charming Behemoths. Make it happen.
KingShez
07-11-2014, 07:09 AM
How about a different color wyvern for the dragoon? Maybe?
Balloon
07-11-2014, 07:16 AM
They're talking about dragons, if it was just Wyvern colours they might as well just give Dragoon charm. Or release 2 trust automato- Oh.
Vivivivi
07-11-2014, 08:52 AM
Greetings,
As another player has already pointed out, adding a dragon-type pet for beastmaster would be somewhat unfair to dragoons since their specialty is using a wyvern, which is why we have not added a dragon-type pet.
How about undead or demon pets like the ones referenced in a recent quest... :D Or is that going to be possible with... something else :D
Being large is a weak excuse not to implement a pet, but I do not recall size being a issue because they implemented Raphie, nor have I heard SE imply that size was an issue. They could always scale him down a bit.
However, since this thread is about big jugs, here is perfect jug line up imo, Ram (Beast), Unusual Wivre (Lizard), Unusual Scolopendrid (Vermin) , Purbol (Morbol, Plantoid), Ruszor (Aquan), Sandworm (Amorph), Amphiptere (Bird). There appears to be no sentimental barriers attached to these mobs, size appears to be the only concern and every family is represented.
Imo, jugs like these would revitalize beastmaster. The job is so dead, and these cute, cuddly, and not-so damaging jug pets are not helping. As Ophannus alluded to, most bst are accustomed to rabbits, crabs, mandies, etc; larger/damaging jugs would bring some much needed excitement and utility to beastmaster. In actuality, the only true new jugs we received were the tulfaire, chapuli and the razz; the rest are repeats. Take a look at our jug pet history; http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Familiars. See how many jugs repeat with different skins? Also, take a look at their ready move list.......wow; I wonder how bst survived this long with pets like this; I mean, crafty had absolutely no damaging abilities. Yikes. Hopefully the next batch brings some excitement to bst; akin to the hippo announcement.
Karbuncle
07-11-2014, 05:04 PM
Being large is a weak excuse not to implement a pet, but I do not recall size being a issue because they implemented Raphie, nor have I heard SE imply that size was an issue. They could always scale him down a bit.
Not to nitpick, but Ralphie is a already scaled down version of Adamantoise... actually labeled "Pygmy Adamantoise". Soooo, large beasts are a tad of a concern. Also, I do agree they could scale them down, which would need to be done to implement something like a Wivre or Behemoth. I mean not because of their general huge-ness, but can you imagine an 18 man alliance with 18 Behemoth's? Lag city and no. Hopefully if they do decide to add bigger pets like what you guys think... Wivre, Roc, etc, they can find a way to scale em back a little. I mean, Malboro has a Pygmy version, maybe we'll get one of those.
Not to nitpick, but Ralphie is a already scaled down version of Adamantoise... actually labeled "Pygmy Adamantoise". Soooo, large beasts are a tad of a concern. Also, I do agree they could scale them down, which would need to be done to implement something like a Wivre or Behemoth. I mean not because of their general huge-ness, but can you imagine an 18 man alliance with 18 Behemoth's? Lag city and no. Hopefully if they do decide to add bigger pets like what you guys think... Wivre, Roc, etc, they can find a way to scale em back a little. I mean, Malboro has a Pygmy version, maybe we'll get one of those.
Yea; that is why I stated that size was not an issue. if dragons can be scaled, I don't see how this could be an problem.
As it pertains to size being a issue in an alliance, the possibilitie of 9 raphie's and 9 titans are out there. I have no issue in besieged with multiple mamool ja riding large wivre, so.....yea...........Lag occurs regardless, multiple things going on at the same time will result in lag depending on your system. In XIV, ppl complained about unbearable lag, but I never experienced this lag in fates and whatnot "Shrugs"
Our strongest pets are the biggest pets. They found a way to give smns the powerful large avatars; why not bst? As a last resort, they could allow the larger monsters to be summoned for a short time, akin to smns/call beast in past final fantasy titles. For instance, An Elasmoth appears, performs a selected move, it hits everything in AOE range, then leaves, hence their aoe moves will not be an issue. The majority of a their moves are large range aoe, this will prevent unwanted adds as-well. They may have to remove meteor though, due to potential blm outcry. Ecliptic meteor is a monster only move iirc, hence no feelings will be hurt.
Imo, pet jobs should not be implemented if their most damaging tools are on the sidelines due to size. Bst has the potential to be an awesome dd, but we are being held back by crappy pets. I am not entirely convinced that the ready moves need to be boosted every half a year, the pets they choose to give us have crap ready moves to begin with. In monstrosity, the strongest dd can reach 800+ dmg at lvl57-ish, with like 220-ish attack to VT mobs (Mind you this is a pld monster, no beserk/war). I imagine they can perform better at lvl119.
Regardless of size, the best/most damaging pets are constantly glossed over. The mention of a Lucerewe is promising; in its' native form that is, which is a completely different issue that we all are aware of XD.
I think as long as it's a non sentient beast(Dragons/Demons/Undead/Arcana are all sentient) its fair game. Roc and Sandworms would be cool. I expected Behemoths too for a pet as an ultimate lv99 pet but at 99 bsts still using sheep and crabs sigh...
When the cap was 75, I fantasized about Level 99 BSTs charming Behemoths. Make it happen.
Ultimate farming jug imo; iirc, they are thfs and the majority of their moves are large aoe. Could clear out salvage in a pinch; akin to how other jobs thrash dated content (Hint, hint).
A wivre would be the ultimate dd/tank imo. Granite hide, self-zerk/haste, and crippling slam.
Hopefully the finer monsters see the light of day in the future.
Leonardus
07-12-2014, 02:29 PM
Greetings,
As another player has already pointed out, adding a dragon-type pet for beastmaster would be somewhat unfair to dragoons since their specialty is using a wyvern, which is why we have not added a dragon-type pet.
I can't entirely agree with this, Camate. There are dragons besides wyverns that have nothing to do with dragoon. Heck, dragoon doesn't even try very hard to associate itself with the wyvern. All I see these days are the same weak breath attacks, the same mediocre bonuses on the AF and Jump: Attack+ job points. What's up with that?
If BST can't get, say, a puk because it would be "unfair" to DRG, then I call the entirety of BLU "unfair" for stealing our ability to use monster abilities (And use them far better than our familiars can, at that, if they aren't stripped away first!). And our killer effects? Public domain at this point.
The response is appreciated, nonetheless. Glad you brought all this up, WoW, I think it's a noteworthy topic.
(Note: I have nothing against BLU, I know you guys need help, too)
Great points as usual Leo, thought I was the only one whom noticed that, everyone else just dismissed it. However, I just let it go because they seem adamant about not adding dragon pets. Nauls and puks have absolutely nothing to do with dragoon wyverns. Supposedly, dragoons specialize in dragons, but bst are the masters of the animal world, but blu is better at exploiting beasts. This is what I was alluded to as-well; thought I was the only one whom noticed that bst and blu overlap. Blu has Animal killer traits and special abilities that are vastly superior to any jug pet. As a career bst; I never felt some type of way. Blus also have access to powerful monster abilities that we do not have on jugs. Take a look at their spell list http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Blue_Mage
Notice how many spells overlap with our jug pet's ready moves. Also, moves like Natures meditation were mysteriously removed from the chapuli, and we still do not have a scorp (death scissors) Oh, and radiant breathe (A wyvern move...uh,oh, someone call the dragoon police).
Blu has access to dragonic moves that dragoons, whom supposedly specialize in dragons do not. Dragoons were never Naul, puk, or wild wyvern oriented; they have domesticated wyverns. I mean, we are acting as if dragoons have been using nauls, wild wyverns, and puks since RoZ. 12 years into XI and I have never seen a dragoon with any of those guys. This is something new imo, to block beastmasters. There are probably no intentions on adding bigger wyverns.
Essentially, an naul, puk, and ajattara jug would be akin to a blu using these draconic abilities. If drgs were gonna get bigger wyverns, they would have before blu gained access to draconic powers. For instance, rngs were always gun wielders, way before to cor release. If a dragoon received a naul, puk, or a wild wyvern, they would equate to a capable dd with jug pets. Bst is essentially a one-handed job, drgs are a two handed beast of a dd.
Question, are there any plans to give dragoons a Naul, puk, or ajattara? If there are, dragoons have waaaaaaay better jug pets than a bst everrrrrr had^^ I mean wow, we are the "beastmaters" sitting over here with grasshoppers and rabbits while dragoons get beastly pets. Also, they do not have to pay money for jugs, but just call upon them, ouch. The call wyvern timer would also suck for a pet job. If dragoons do get one of these monsters, how would they use healing breathe? These mobs have no such moves......As Leo alluded to, most dragoons favor the master, the wyvern is their for support (iirc), completely different from a naul, puk, or wild wyvern; these mobs do not use healing breathes. They are more dd-oriented, suited for a beastmaster.
Imo, dragon pets more sense on beast because they are true pets, as opposed to a small wyvern whom serves as a generic pet, that is not fully controllable. Yes this is a double standard, because several jobs overlap to some degree, Sch/blm/whm/rdm, blu/bst, cor/rng, but whatever.
But yea, thx Leo, it is something that has been thinking about for awhile now. I took dragoons into consideration, but these monsters just scream bst as opposed to utility wyvern. If a puk or even a naul are unfair to drgs, then how does SE feel about ready moves and blue magic "Wink"
I accept the double standard, but nonetheless, it is a double standard (I am not dumb, I acknowledge this and nothing can change my mind, but I accept it).
Fun to imagine what it would be like using a puk: Elemental TP Bonus/Zephyr Mantle. How about a Naul? Hurricane Wing, Dragon Breath (Dare i say, best dd move on a pet ever^^), Absolute Terror, and Horrid Roar. I really do not see any issues with these two. A puk is small to begin with and Wyrms are already pygmy sized. "Shrugs"
Mitruya
07-12-2014, 09:21 PM
I can't speak for SE or anyone else so this is my own humble opinion.
Yes, there's some lore around the DRG pet, and it's a domesticated version of the wild wyverns which are part of the Dragon family, and it has abilities unique to it (i.e. Healing Breath).
I think, like any other pet job, we wish we had customization in colors and naming.
The big thing is the 20 minute Call Wyvern timer (which used to be longer, I know), the uselessness of elemental breaths (which BLUs also suffer from), and like all pets, survivability in endgame.
We look to Achtelle and wish we had a pet like Bravo. http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Bravo (SE really dropped the ball by not tying in Achtelle to SoA.)
If BSTs got a puk, fine. (A puk is part of the Dragon family, but technically a chimera and does not have breath attacks.) If BSTs got a Naul or Ajattara, then we'd be upset that SE didn't give us an upgraded pet. Both wild Wyrms and Wyverns have elemental breaths; the only thing missing is the Healing Breath which is basically tied into our job (either by subjob and/or JA).
Now, I play BLU also. From my personal experience, no one specifically sets Animal Killer traits, and I can't think of the last time I noticed an "intimidation" message. Radiant Breath is only used as an Voidwatch and Abyssea proc. You'll never see it or really any other breath spell being used by a BLU. I am not sure how BLUs can be treading on BST or DRG toes here (pet wyverns do not have a light element breath). As for Ready moves and blue spells, and the lackluster choice of pets, well that's all on SE.
Regardless of the usage, blu has draconic powers, Pyric Bulwark, Absolute Terror, Wind Breath, Thunder Breath, and radiant breathe. The "ready moves" blu has are vastly superior to any jug, aka charged whisker; so I do not see validity in that argument.
Question, how would you guys feel if SE released pets with moves that were removed from that monster, but given to another job? That is what happens to bst. Blu has nearly all of our ready moves and more. Why do dragoons feel a certain way about bst getting draconic pets, but completely dismiss blu for having draconic breathe attacks/powers? That is a double standard regardless of how you slice it.
Dragoons have absolutely nothing to do with nauls; as you mentioned, it is wyverns (Wild and domesticated). Fine, give dragoons a wild wyvern and give bst the naul and puk. Everyone is suddenly acting as if drgs have these pet ties to every single dragon in vanadiel. Bahamut is also a dragon, but he has nothing to do with drg pets.
Also, the breathe attack argument in not valid because non-draconic mobs also have breathe attacks.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Raptor_%28MON%29
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_Raptor_%28MON%29
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Manticore_%28MON%29
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Rams
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Adamantoises
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Crawlers
One of our jugs already has breathe attacks. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Crude_Raphie.
Drgs do not mind puks; however, they will be upset if they added a naul, they both are dragons, so what is the issue? Drgs do not mind puks because they are pretty sub-par, dd wise, although it is a dragon. Drgs know this; drgs are incapable of being pet jobs, more focus is placed on the master, but suddenly, drgs are these dd pet jobs whom need stronger pets because bst wants them.
Nauls are pretty small, they are not big dragons, hence the "big" argument is also invalid. This guy, http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Snaggletooth_Peapuk, appears to be bigger than this dude http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Naul.
I don't get it.......there are huge puks, but small dragons. there are also smaller puks, but larger dragons. That size argument is pretty lame/weak imo. The breathe argument is also weak. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Chimera_%28Final_Fantasy_VI%29, these chimera do indeed use breathe attacks and several non-dragon monster do as-well. One of our jugs already have a breathe attack. Puks are also known as the wind wyverns http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Puks, however, drgs do not mind us getting a wyvern spinoff but not a naul. Double standard.
There is no valid argument against Naul or pet jugs; mostly hating/holding bst back imo; SE dissed bst, plain and simple, blu has nearly all of our traits and ready moves, but giving us a Naul jug is unfair. I wonder was SE thinks about bst and blu overlapping? Is that fair? We specialize in animals, but they have animal's special abilities.
Drg and bst could live with overlapping as-well, give them a bigger wyvern, but let us have a naul jug. I would also like to see how dragoon functions with a wild wyvern (Grin), wild wyverns do not have healing breathes. Personally, I do not believe there are any intentions on adding bigger wyverns, just a hater move on SE's part. As long as the notion of a bigger wyvern is out there, bst will not be able to use dragon jugs. The bst community is not stupid, but maybe we are, for playing a crapped on job.
Give drgs a bigger wyverns and allow us to have a naul/puk jug, problem solved. Dragoons have wyverns, not puks or wyrms; there should not feel some type of way.
Edit: Yes, I do agree, this is a topic worthy of a healthy discussion; I am kind of sorry i gave up on it. I could deal with a valid reason, i am an extremely understanding guy, but the reasoning is contradictory. Rngs specialize in guns, but corsairs get them as-well; Geo and blm both have aoe magic attacks; bst and blu both use animal abilities......I don't get it, SE is picking bst out of the whole litter as opposed to all offenders.
Iirc, bst could tame wyrms in FFTA and drgs were present in that game as-well.
Mitruya
07-13-2014, 05:46 AM
The written word makes me sound more argumentative than I intend, so I apologize for that.
I am one player among thousands; I don't speak for all DRGs or all BLUs. Also who the hell knows what SE's philosophy is. They have and will go back on their word.
I don't hate BST, and in fact I have liked or supported the majority of your suggestions. (I used to play the job, too.)
I guess I never thought about the "draconic" powers of BLU, and that's probably because they rarely get used. Absolute Terror had a brief claim to fame in Foret Delve, Radiant Breath is proc-only. The breath spells are by and large pretty meh and there have been other threads on here discussing that. I don't know how many people even have a slot to fit in Pyric Bulwark.
So, to me there is a difference between seeing another job with a larger dragon than mine, versus seeing a job that has dragon-attacks but hardly utilizes them. It's not about who has what move, to me anyway. As you pointed out, the moves are different.
If BSTs want to be able to use Hurricane Wing or whatever, I don't care. I'm not asking for a pet that does all the Dragon moves. DRGs are just saying it's time for the little baby to grow up. SE could even institute a new model for it.
We can agree that all pets need a boost to be able to withstand endgame content. Just because a pet is bigger doesn't guarantee survivability.
BLU has animal abilities because that is part of the job. MP cost and spell-set limits restrict how much we go around spamming them. BLUs don't typically set any of the killer-trait spell combinations (not at lvl99 anyway).
Again it's all on SE as to what job has what move; I don't have a say in that. Do I agree that BST needs better Ready moves? Sure. I don't care if both BST and BLU have Death Scissors, for instance. If we were in a party together, we probably wouldn't be using the same moves anyway. Other jobs overlap already, so who cares?
The size issue is also on SE. I don't care who waves around the biggest ... pet. ;p
I *think* (but I do not know for sure until I repeat the DRG job quest on another character) that it's SE that's stating that DRGs are tied to dragons. All sub-families? I have no idea. Maybe it's just wyverns.
I took the time to look up the Dragon family for my post but I didn't feel the need to go digging around for breath attacks. (What does the breath attacks from another game have to do with this?) Until SE buffs them, breath attacks don't matter on ANY job. In fact I think there have been requests to let us control when the pet wyvern uses it because it gives it such a pause in DPS.
This is not a recent development just because you started asking for dragon-jugs. There have been threads before requesting wyvern customization and bigger size. Again, look to Achtelle. When WOTG was released and people saw her, that probably got people thinking. Just like BSTs want to be like Lhu Mhakaracca with her rocs. And don't the beastmen bring in scorpions?
This is not DRG vs. BST. I want to see all jobs get balanced. I'm not saying, "oh you can have a puk 'cause it sucks." Honestly I didn't think about whether it would be a bad pet or not. But I guess you're thinking that as a jug, SE will nerf it.
No need to apologize; this is more-so directed at the game's contradictory design and players have nothing to do with that. Sorry if my words come off as wrathful; but i digress.
Blu does have animal abilities, because it is part of the job, but bst can call upon charmable and non-charmable monster, because it is part of their job. Why should we be restricted but blus are not? Dragons are indeed a part of our pet repertoire, because we can charm a dragon. Beastmen has also tamed dragons, most of which are not dragoons. Also, we are restricted to a ready charge meter, which prevents us from spamming dragon breathe. A dragon mob is charmable, hence the potential is there, that is all on SE. If dragons were never meant to be charmed, then all dragon mobs would be un-charmable, but then again, hippos and adamantoise are uncharamble, but yet, they are jug pets.
Also, I agree, size in not valid, as you stated, who cares about waving around the biggest (pretty funny). I am all for bigger/damaging wyverns, however, I am not sure they will give you guys a wyrm. Not sure how drg would function with a naul -esque pet (No healing breathes).
You know what I say? Fine SE, give dragoons a naul or ajattara pet; I will wait^^ "Whistles" Dragoons specialize in dragons right? Well, let them have a naul and a ajattara^^ i have no issue if SE truly intended for drgs to specialize in drgs, but that does not appear to be the case (because we can charm a dragon and kindred bst tame wyverns). While you are doing that, just realize that those two mobs are far better than any crappy pet we have seen, hence i guess an Elasmoth is fair game, right? We want bigger/stronger pets as-well, because, you know, we specialize in taming wild beast.
Mitruya, I don't want you to feel like I am attacking you, that is not the case, but I digress^^
Also, i found this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19895-All-dragoons-sign-up-for-quest-to-upgrade-our-wyvern?.
Mitruya
07-13-2014, 06:44 AM
No worries ^^. Contradictory design is the best way to put it. And yep, that was one of the threads I was thinking of.
Yea, the OP mentioned wyverns, not wyrms or puks.
That dev response is much appreciated, any dev response is appreciated, but it still left a bitter taste, because it did not clear up anything.
"Dragons, wyverns and wyrms are often confused by adventurers young and old." And then, "It should be noted that these wild wyvern are distinctly different from the domesticated pet wyvern, which are smaller and significantly more docile than their wild counterparts." (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org). Idk SE, seems like an excuse to me. Several ppl attested to contradictory game design. Specialization in XI is laughable; many jobs overlap and are quite good at what they do. blms,rdms, and geo use offensive magic; Dnc, brds, and thfs specialize in daggers; run specializes in great swords, but drks and wars are more damaging with them; mnk and pup both specialize in hand-to-hand; Nin was a dual wield specialist, but multiple jobs got them; except for bst of course.
Imo, there is nothing SE could say to convince ppl otherwise, the only thing that can clear this up is action. Honestly, what can they say?
Another thing, lets take a look at their jug pet track record; http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category%3AFamiliars. Mostly lazy designs, the ready moves are sub-par and a plethora of those pets are repeats. I am by no means a game developer/producer, but what does it take to copy an existing pigmy wyrm into jug form? They recycle past jugs anyway.
If drgs got the stuff mentioned in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42965-Dragoon-s-Future-as-DD; I don't think they will give 2 craps about a naul jug.
Ophannus brought up an interesting point; http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42965-Dragoon-s-Future-as-DD?p=514059&viewfull=1#post514059. Which brings me to this, could you imagine a drg with a naul or wyvern spamming breathe attacks? I would dump my bst in a heartbeat to play dragoon. No ready meter necessary, just need your own tp to be at 1000. Not to mention, a naul and wild wyvern are superior to any bst jug.
If drgs received master and pet buffs that allowed them to compete at endgame, this would be a non-issue imo. Both of the jobs are in the dumps hence everyone is reaching/fighting for any scraps they can get.
Boost drgs and give us a naul; it is not that serious, really.........many past final fantasy titles had overlapping jobs, including this one. What specialization? Translation, we do not want to add them, so we are not, ok? I mean, I can take the truth, if they do not want to add them, just say so, specialization is extremely contradictory.
Contradictory design aside; I have a question; what can you guys implement SE? As it pertains to Jug pets.
Are any of these guys implementable?
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110215100205/finalfantasy/images/archive/4/49/20121217115447!Sandworm_1_%28FFXI%29.png
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/SilverObi/FFXI%20Related/4-1.jpg
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121217082114/finalfantasy/images/f/fe/Wivre_%28FFXI%29.png
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131126003812/ffxi/images/thumb/c/c0/Ferromantoise.png/500px-Ferromantoise.png
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121217094127/finalfantasy/images/4/42/Scorpion_3_%28FFXI%29.png
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121217094016/finalfantasy/images/a/a1/Mantid_1_%28FFXI%29.png
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120813044813/finalfantasy/images/e/e9/Ruszor_FFXI_Art.jpg
http://www.zam.com/Im/Image/219563.jpg
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121217072947/finalfantasy/images/9/9e/Opo-Opo_1_%28FFXI%29.png
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121217073244/finalfantasy/images/d/d7/Ram_1_%28FFXI%29.png
Just a few monsters i see ppl asking for in these forums. The majority (Like all of them) of our pets are pretty sub-par, as in, non-damaging/repeats whom are quite small.
All of these guys are within the beast arsenal, as it pertains to the seven monster families; beast, vermin, amorph, aquan, lizard, bird, plantoid, and birds. Personally, I do not see any "unfairness" in adding any of these guys. Blms have meteor, this can be removed and replaced with the beast only version (Ecliptic meteor).
Glamdring
07-14-2014, 07:05 AM
@WoW, actually, quite a few of those were discussed awhile back when they actually polled us about what jugs we would like added, Scorp ALMOST made it, and Ruszor and Opo were under serious discussion (I was holding out for a Hecteyes, I wanted 1 good jug for magic mobs). as I recall they shut down Behemoth for some reason. and we actually have an adamantoise, he just capped at 99 and didn't have a very long useful life in the game (not to mention being STUPID expensive).
Yea^^ i recall the ruszor, opo, and scorpion being mentioned; secretly, I hoped they would have released the others by now :(. Raphie was one of our better pets imo^^ He was missing headbutt and earth breathe though :(. Originally, i thought he was missing Testudo Tremor, but that is a ferromantoise move; one of those would be awesome.
Hopefully they take their time with the new implied batch. SE appears to have something against damaging monsters.
I am still salty by the announcement of no dragons, considering we can charm one. I am not entirely convinced that Naul -esque pets are a no-go. That explanation only pertained to bst, because other jobs specialize in an overlapping fashion. Also, if they announce some crappy repeat pets, that will suck even more.
Also, i don't see why certain monsters are off limits/shutdown, blu has access to legendary monster moves, thunderbolt, absolute terror, etc. In essence, specialization can overlap, not for bst tho. Thanks for the clarification SE :).
Bump.
There appears to be no valid argument against a dragon pet. I have a few question for SE;
1) If dragons are monster family that is off limits, then why are puks charmable?
2) Why were dragoons referenced when a naul, shadow dragon, and a puk function completely different than a domesticated wyvern (Large hp pool, no healing breathes, ws on their own as opposed to when the master does)?
3) How is it that Blu has dragon elemental breathes, but giving bst a dragon pet is infringing drg territory?
4) A plethora of jobs infringe upon one anothers territory, do they not?
5) What does giving dragoons a bigger wyvern has to do with this? Just give them a bigger wyvern? Most likely, the pet would still resemble the original wyvern due to healing breathes, utility, etc.
6) Pups specialize in automotons, but we all have access to them, via trust.
These dragons have nothing to do with dragoon.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Dragons
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Naul
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Puks
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bahamut
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Shinryu
Also, most jobs can just /bst and use any charmable monster they wish, while we cannot /drg for a wyvern. All jobs can use pet food. Monsters are owned by nobody. The day a drg receives an Ajattara, will be the day they are a full on two handed pet job with a controllable pet. If you want to give dragoons an Bravo -esque pet, then give it to them. However, drgs have nothing to do with the aforementioned dragons (Shown in the wiki pages).
Mitruya
07-19-2014, 07:44 AM
I think it comes down to the simple answer of ... size matters. *wink*
IMO, it has nothing to do with giving DRGs dragon-family attacks (which we have little control over anyway). We just want our baby wyvern to grow a little. So if SE has no plans to change that, then they'd never hear the end of it if they gave BSTs Nauls or whatever.
Unless I missed something, BLU gets a total of eight moves from the dragon family, two of which are part of Unbridled Learning. (Out of five elemental breaths, only three are from actual dragon mobs.) I'd like to emphasize again that BLU does not generally utilize much of these. Breath attacks are useless whether they come from a jug, a BLU, or a DRG's wyvern.
I think perhaps White Wind and Absolute Terror get the most usage, unless someone does a lot of VW/Abyssea proccing (Radiant Breath).
DRGs don't care that BLUs have these spells. I don't think DRGs would care if BSTs had dragon mobs with dragon attacks either, because DRG is not a true pet job and the wyvern is a completely different animal with a different function.
Balloon
07-19-2014, 07:59 AM
A puk pet would be cool, though, Zephr Mantle is nice, has some coolish tp moves.
Has some unique abilities like absorbtion of damage and regain/instant tp.
Low delay, highish attack. I'd love to see a Puk.
I think it comes down to the simple answer of ... size matters. *wink*
IMO, it has nothing to do with giving DRGs dragon-family attacks (which we have little control over anyway). We just want our baby wyvern to grow a little. So if SE has no plans to change that, then they'd never hear the end of it if they gave BSTs Nauls or whatever.
Unless I missed something, BLU gets a total of eight moves from the dragon family, two of which are part of Unbridled Learning. (Out of five elemental breaths, only three are from actual dragon mobs.) I'd like to emphasize again that BLU does not generally utilize much of these. Breath attacks are useless whether they come from a jug, a BLU, or a DRGs wyvern.
I think perhaps White Wind and Absolute Terror get the most usage, unless someone does a lot of VW/Abyssea proccing (Radiant Breath).
A few things, firstly, usage is invalid; it just emphasizes the "Since it is not effective, it does not matter" mentality I was alluding to earlier, as it pertains to effective pets (Puk vs Naul).
I just have one question for you if i may, are you aware that bst can charm puks, some of which are bigger than a galka, naul, and domesticated wyvern (the ones in the tree)? How do you feel about that? (Bolded to highlight question, not for emphasis). Also, the majority of monsters in vanadiel are bigger than domesticated wyverns, including the majority of our jugs.
This brings me to my point, there is no valid argument against dragon jugs, which is why there are no more dev responses or other drgs gathering around this. Size, specialization, and breathe attacks are the arguments I heard so far and they are all contradictory.
Charmable
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Puk
Contradiction.
http://www.bg-wiki.com/index.php/Kindred%27s_Vouivre
Mitruya
07-19-2014, 10:58 AM
Whether BLUs use the spells or not, I don't think DRGs care. I play both jobs and never felt that they overlap. In fact, I haven't even bothered to learn all those dragon-mob moves. I don't have space for pointless spells.
I play BST too (used to anyway) and never felt that BLU overlapped with it either. I never intentionally set killer traits and no lvl99 BLU is going to have those low-level combinations in their spellset.
I don't think you got my joke about size. DRAGOONS WANT A BIGGER WYVERN. Period. End of story. It's not about the TP-moves. It's cosmetic, really. You start the job with a baby and it never gets bigger like Bravo.
I don't care if BSTs can charm puks. I don't care if BSTs have ginormous pets. But if you wave around your ... Naul (lol) while we still have a baby, then yeah, we'd be a bit miffed. Not because of the attacks.
I didn't design the game, man. I never had access to Dyna-Xarc and had no idea about the Kindred BSTs and their Bravo-esque pets until this thread. Sure yeah, technically a Beastmaster should be able to charm or summon just about anything. But it seems that game lore is the valid answer SE is trying to give, and it would just look odd for BSTs to have dragons when that kinda sorta is what sets DRGs apart. (Why even play DRG at that point, unless you just needed piercing damage?)
I think the fact that people keep arguing about the lore means that SE will never do it, unless maybe they make a bigger model for the pet wyvern.
In fact, they could tie-in the lore of Achtelle and the Dragoons of Adoulin, give DRGs a new wyvern model or something, and clarify the lore so the other dragon-mobs would be separate and up for grabs as charmable/jugs.
At the risk of sounding contradictory, I want to clarify that I know a dragon jug would function differently than a pet wyvern, just like automaton Trusts are different from my controlled pet. But there is like a plethora of great ideas you gave that SE should pull from, so I guess some of us ask why take away what sort of sets us apart? Why bother to pick up the DRG job at all if you can have a more powerful pet on BST? If you want to use a polearm you can just play SAM in that case, you know? (DRGs can't keep up with SAMs, and have just as much chance as being invited as a BST.)
I know you're saying "but BLU has dragon-moves and killer traits and better TP abilities compared to Ready moves" and all I can say is yeah SE needs to throw BST a bone. BST and BLU and DRG may have some shared traits but they do not play the same.
Balloon
07-19-2014, 11:11 AM
I think there's some overlap in those sentiments, too Mitruya.
I'm not a bst, I used to be, first job to 75 etc etc.
They're adding another sheep. I am 24 levels over 75, and 43 theoretical levels over 75. I would expect that my ability to charm beasts would scale with my charisma, I can understand that at 75, maybe I don't have the charisma to coerce a giant behemoth into my command, but at 119 I should.
Another frame for automaton would be nice too, something a little more intelligent, something a little more sentient. That guy in the AF quests was terrible with his automaton, but it could decide what to do by itself without command. I shouldn't have to equip an attachment for my auto to understand I need a cure.
I would love a puk jug. There is no excuse not to give us one. Nauls are not charmable so... that's ... ok. But puks are so we should at least get that. Frankly I do not want another sheep, crab, tiger, rabbit... SO TIRED of getting SO MANY repeats.
A puk jug opens up the possibility of dragon jugs, which is the only reason I welcome them. Otherwise, puks seem horrible; as it pertains to dd potential. Alot of our jugs are not charmable, but nonetheless, are implemented as pets.
The tigers were decent, hit hard on lesser content, but did crap ready move damage on stuff that mattered. I was on the no repeat bandwagon as-well, however, rabbits. sheep, and crabs are not bad pets. Granted there are cooler/more frightening monsters out there. Wild ginseng is nice. Rabbits are not as cool as say.. a manticore, but i imagine a rabbit in their native form would destroy a slow attacking manticore in the dd department. Not many beast could hang with a lapinion save a lynx, opo, or ram.
Some of the repeats could equate to awesome pets; lynx, beetles, hippos, and crabs are nasty in their strongest forms. The move removal and the non-release of sub-species (That mattered) is the only beef I have with the repeats. 5 crabs and not one was a barnacle variation with megascissors/venom shower. 2 Coeurls and no pounce, frenzied rage, and gleam attack. Personally, i would take another coeurl with those moves over most un-released beasts; frenzied rage > pounce is nasty^^
There are not many great dd monsters out there imo. To SE's credit, they have been releasing newer guys recently, but there are pretty sub-par; ibuki, boar, and the chapuli. All I am saying is that there are a ton of crappy unreleased jugs, but also, there some crappy released pets. Hopefully SE release some damaging monsters.
I would not mind repeat sub-species of beetles, lynx, sheep, and crabs; that is about it. The rest were poor monster choices imo.