Dragoon's Future as DD

[Rendra]

Can we get some insight on Dragoon's future?... This job has always had issues trying to keep up with current DD's SAM, MNK, WAR and DRK. for 1, Drakesbane didn't even get a buff when some of the other Mythic WS's did... Which pushes DRG to the back even with Mythic Holders... The Dev's call it a pet job, but yet the pet doesn't put out the dmg SMN's or BST's put out. so there for it lacks in that department as well. This is one of my favorite jobs in the FF series and in this game it seems to be treated the worst for a DD job... when in fact in the other FF games this job was favored in that department.

I would like to see some new JA's maybe an attack type effect which increases DRG's attack power. similar to WAR's Berserk. splitting the Jump Timers like we were promised. Removing the Attack Penalty on Drakesbane.

There is so much that can be done to this job to bring it up to the standard DD's even if you decide not to increase the DMG of the DRG at least up the power of the Wyvern's normal hits and breath attacks to compensate for that lack of Damage that you're not giving the DRG.

I was hoping when Matsui took over and he had his Wyvern avatar that he would've favored DRG and brought it up to par... but I guess I was wrong D:

[Mitruya]

Agreed.
Like Martel mentioned in another post, we could REALLY use our Empyrean set reforged.
Seeing SAM get a buff while no help for Drakesbane was sickening.
I'm not sure whether to be hopeful for the promised pet job buffs that are coming.

[Babekeke]

In case you missed this...


Greetings,

As an overarching theme for job adjustments we are planning to make attack adjustments to damage dealing jobs based on monk’s current attack capabilities.

One aspect of this overall adjustment plan was the skill chain and weapon skill enhancements that gave samurai more power.


Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.

As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:

Implementation of higher-tier mochi
By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.


Improvements to the power of special abilities
Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.



The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

This might mean that wyvern breaths will actually do some damage. Though progbably not, seeing as 90% of mobs around take significantly less breath damage in an attempt to prevent K Club DRKs from zerging everything down.

It would be nice to see all of these breath resistances gone now though. I mean, nothing worth zerging now could even be done with a K Club DRK due to the lack of ilvl on it, and therefore -242 skill so it would never be able to hit!

I think that if breath damage was raised to be on par with or at least ~50% of the DRG WS damage, it would be sufficient.

[Martel]

Actually, pretty much every NM/mob since a good while before Adoulin release has taken full breath dmg. It's pretty easy to tell with atonement.

However, just because they don't have breath damage taken%- doesn't mean they won't resist wyvern breaths into the ground. Which is largely what tends to happen.

Also, I've never seen anyone suggest that Souleater was breath dmg. Is there some testing on this you could link me to?

[Tennotsukai]

I can't believe that drakesbane didn't receive a buff still. I mean that ws isn't that amazing unless you have a mythic right? Oh well, I hope Drg's get something cause they deserve it. Let's just have a larger wyvern that deals a crap load more damage. Then Drg could be considered a pet job...

[Olor]

I can't believe that drakesbane didn't receive a buff still. I mean that ws isn't that amazing unless you have a mythic right? Oh well, I hope Drg's get something cause they deserve it. Let's just have a larger wyvern that deals a crap load more damage. Then Drg could be considered a pet job...

Probably the worst thing that could happen to DRG is to have to rely more on their pet for damage. We've all seen how that goes. The pet is precisely the reason why DRG is falling behind, just like other pet jobs. SE doesn't know how to balance pet jobs, so we get punished. Or the devs think pets are powerful, but they not (see:Knights of the Round comment for how out of touch the dev team is).

Anyway, not a DRG but I totally feel for you guys.

[Tennotsukai]

Yeah, poor drg.

[Dragomair]

Another thing about DRG that sets it behind other 'pet' jobs;
A wyvern can barely be used in most endgame due to AOEs. (If a wyvern is hit by even 1 or 2 powerful AOE moves, the Wyvern will die and you'd go without a wyvern for a long period of time.)

[Mitruya]

OMG yes, I have repeated that over and over - we need a reduced Call Wyvern timer, stackable Dawn Mulsums, and stronger defense on the wyvern. Spirit Link and Steady Wing does not help.

[Babekeke]

Also, I've never seen anyone suggest that Souleater was breath dmg. Is there some testing on this you could link me to?

Actually, I just couldn't fathom any other reason as to why so many mobs and especially NMs had so much breath damage mitigation. Assuming that it was due to the souleater nerf was the only thing that seemed to make sense to me.

[Lithera]

If not a reduction on the timer then a ja that acts like Deus Ex Automata where we can pop out a weaker wyvern. Yeah I know a weaker one will die faster but it's better than having to wait 20 mins.

[Skeelo]

I would like something that restricts the use of breaths all together and gives us a hasso'ish effect or berserk effect. Its sad i spent 300mil on a weapon and still have to give it everything i have to put out as much dmg as weaker sam/drks/wars/mnks.

[Ophannus]

Wyvern breaths can't be made too powerful and they likely won't be buffed too much anyway. Whereas a BST or SMN's abilities do a lot of damage, they're tied down to Ready/Sic/BP timers. Wyvern Breaths can be spammed nonstop as long as you're weapon skilling(which, if you're well buffed, is every few seconds). They said if they split Jump timers, they'd have to raise the recast of all of them back to pre-adjustment level. That means:
Jump/Spirit Jump 60s→90s
High Jump/Soul Jump 120s → 180s
Super Jump 180s → 300s

Is that what you'd want?

It's high time DRG receives a self buff JA. Make it a 'stance' so it lasts longer(stances tend to last longer but have penalties; compare stance durations like Hasso and Composure to nonstance buffs like Warcry and Focus). Something like Attack +10% Attack Speed+10% Accuracy+15, penalty is need Wyvern alive and when used negates the use of Wyvern elemental breaths(but can still use with smiting). The buff would also apply to Wyverns. The hidden gem of an ability that buffs DRG+Wyvern attack/haste/acc, while restricting use of breaths, is that if the Wyvern is hitting faster and more often, they gain TP faster. Faster TP means we can Spirit Link and absorb that TP and it wont be reset to 0 every 2 seconds to be spent on a 64 damage Flame Breath. So Wyvern's elemental breaths are restricted, we can use Spirit Link offensively when they have 150-200% TP to self skillchain or throw out another Stardiver in quick succession.

Need more traits too. Remove Critical Defense Bonus and give DRG a Critical Attack Bonus. Can the Devs explain their justification for giving DRG, a melee damage dealer job "Critical Defense Bonus"? Why does Dark Knight get Critical Attack Bonus and not Dragoon? Dragoon has 2 critical weapon skills and 2 Jumps that rely on critical damage. Dark Knight has not a single critical weapon skill for Great Sword, and Scythe only has Vorpal Scythe. Why do they have Critical Attack Bonus and Dragoon has Critical Defense Bonus? Dragoons are not tanks and Crit.Def Bonus is such a strange and out of place trait. Perhaps it was a mistake?


Should also make Job Points that reduce Call Wyvern timer by 10 seconds per point. Doesn't seem like much, but when capped 30/30, would be a 5 minute reduction; so 15min recast. To be honest if Call Wyvern was a lower recast, they'd have to undo all the changes they implemented to make Wyverns live longer: Double Spirit Link's recast time, halve its potency, remove it's regen effect; remove Wyvern's Damage Taken-40%; reduce the multiplier on Steady Wing from *3 to *2, etc...

Fly High is actually a lot better than I thought it was however, one buff I would ask for, and it's a long shot, is: When Fly High is used, can it PLEASE reset "Call Wyvern" recast? If Wyvern dies and is a long way off, we can't use Spirit Surge, but if Fly High is up and Fly High was adjusted to reset Call Wyvern, we could use it in a pinch to reset it! To expound further: lets say I'm about to fight a boss as DRG. Everyone is using their SP's, MNK, WAR,SAMs all using their SP's As a DRG I'm kind of screwed if my Wyvern is dead, I can only use Fly High, and Fly High is very weak as a SP ability without a Wyvern because Jump and High Jump don't give much TP.

So either let Fly High reset the "Call Wyvern" timer, or under "Fly High" can Spirit Jump and Soul Jump get their TP/Crit bonuses(even if Wyvern is not present)? Spirit Surge gives a special bonus to Jump High Jump and Super Jump, Fly High should give the special Wyvern bonuses(the 100% crit and 2x/3x TP) at least to Spirit Jump and Soul Jump so the SP can be useful even without a Wyvern. When Wyvern is dead or used for Spirit Surge, Fly High becomes a lot weaker because Spirit Jump and Soul Jump do not get their bonus TP and critical damage without a Wyvern but Fly High, as a 1-hour ability should grant us those Wyvern bonuses for Spirit and Soul Jump!

[Mitruya]

Should also make Job Points that reduce Call Wyvern timer by 10 seconds per point. Doesn't seem like much, but when capped 30/30, would be a 5 minute reduction; so 15min recast. To be honest if Call Wyvern was a lower recast, they'd have to undo all the changes they implemented to make Wyverns live longer: Double Spirit Link's recast time, halve its potency, remove it's regen effect; remove Wyvern's Damage Taken-40%; reduce the multiplier on Steady Wing from *3 to *2, etc...


I don't understand this reasoning. It's already been mentioned several times that when a DRG enters endgame content (if they get in at all), the wyvern dies. None of those buffs help, why would they nerf them to give us a reduced recast? SMN BST and PUP don't have that kind of restriction. Also, a 15 minute recast is still too long.

[Babekeke]

I don't understand this reasoning. It's already been mentioned several times that when a DRG enters endgame content (if they get in at all), the wyvern dies. None of those buffs help, why would they nerf them to give us a reduced recast? SMN BST and PUP don't have that kind of restriction. Also, a 15 minute recast is still too long.

This is certainly true of SMN. A native -50% PDT and can be chosen for their ability to have a high resistance to a certain element. All that on top of a really fast recast timer!!

[Rwolf]

I don't use my DRG very often to make a huge post about what it needs but I agree on Call Wyvern recast being too long. No other pet job has this penalty. While DRG isn't as much a pet job as the others, it's still a pet job.

I don't think any of the efforts to make Wyverns last longer need to be removed in order to compensate. Other pets are way more durable than Wyverns and still have a slew of pet abilities/job abilities/traits to increase that durability. Avatars have a native -50% damage and they are the most disposable pet of them all. Not to mention the other pet jobs get Stout Servant. With area of effect becoming more and more prevalent in today's endgame. I don't see anything personally wrong with DRG getting more of a boost.

[Ophannus]

That was their reasoning, not mine. Let me play devil's advocate though: Their logic is, when the Wyvern is dead, DRG is still a competent damage dealer(relative to PUP BST SMN), we have an A+ skill in a two-handed weapon that's 2nd or 3rd highest base damage and pretty decent weapon skills and such. A BST without a pet is a single wielding axe WAR DD without berserk or anything, a SMN without an Avatar is just a 99 mage with /49 WHM spells, a PUP without an Auto is a less accurate MNK without Impetus and poorer stats. DRG is less reliant on pets than the other pet jobs. That being said, Wyverns are actually pretty robust if you're smart. The only content my Wyvern gets rocked on is AA Elvaan and delve mega bosses. And on delve megabosses, everyone's eating a lot of damage, not just the DRG/Wyvern.

BST pets don't have the restriction because they have to buy their pets. Automatons can be resummoned quickly because all of PUP's JAs involve the auto, all of SMN's abilities involve the Avatar. Do BST, PUP, SMN have JA that don't involve their pets? DRG has Jump, High Jump, Spirit Jump, Soul Jump, Super Jump, Angon.


01 Spirit Surge PET
01 Call Wyvern PET
05 Ancient Circle
10 Jump
25 Spirit Link PET
35 High Jump
50 Super Jump
75 (Merit) Deep Breathing PET
75 (Merit) Angon
77 Spirit Jump
85 Soul Jump
87 Dragon Breaker
96 Fly High


BST
01 Familiar PET
01 Charm PET
10 Gauge
12 Reward PET
23 Call Beast PET
30 Tame
75 (Merit) Feral Howl
75 (Merit) Killer Instinct PET
96 Unleash PET

1 Astral Flow PET
50 Elemental Siphon PET
87 Mana Cede PET
96 Astral Conduit PET

01 Overdrive PET
01 Activate PET
05 Deus Ex Automata PET
15 Repair PET
30 Maintenance PET
75 (Merit) Role Reversal PET
75 (Merit) Ventriloquy PET
79 Tactical Switch PET
95 Cooldown Doesn't require a pet but Burden doesn't hurt the PUP, only Automaton
96 Heady Artifice PET


Compared to the other pet jobs, only a few of our JA rely on a pet while other jobs rely more or less completely on their pet, that's why our recast timer is higher, also we don't spend MP or Gil to keep our pets and PUP gets a free pet with a fast recast but they sacrifice main job competence(B h2h skill, no main job damage buffs or JA, poorer armor selection)

I feel as though if DRG gets a stronger Wyvern and a faster recast, they'll just turn us into polearm PUPs, drop our Polearm Skill to B+, maybe nerf Lance damage, take us off Heavy Armor and increase timers on Jumps, since now a larger percent of our damage will come from the wyvern. I'm basing this off their pattern of pet job desigm and the best comparison would be PUP since like DRG, their pet is free unlike SMN and BST. A free pet seems to equate to a gimped master.

The tradeoff is we have A+ Skill, job abilities and a 2hr that don't involve a pet(compare to SMN BST PUP), heavy armor, 2nd best base DMG weapon type, and decent traits(Acc/ATK bonus better than what BST gets for melee) but in exchange our Wyvern is free but in is uncontrollable(just copies us, we can't make it stay/heel/retreat) contributes less damage and is more fragile.

A DRG's damage ratio with our pet on 6man regular content(not counting BRD swap zergs) is something like 80%DRG/20%Wyvern; 0%SMN/100%Avatar; 60%PUP/40%Automaton; 0%BST/100%Jug Pet. Because the DRG is so much stronger than the Wyvern, to just buff the Wyvern's recast and abilities greatly could make us too strong perhaps. Actually when I was doing ADL runs the other day I realized how strong our Wyvern was made after the last adjustment to it. I was hitting fodder in Dynamis for ~700ish, my Wyvern was hitting for 600-620. And since the Wyvern attacks faster than I do, it was almost like Dual Wielding another Lance. Granted, on AA fights, it's a lot less, I'll hit for 500ish per swing and the Wyvern will hit for 160-180, but when you add the DoT together it's still pretty high for white damage compared to say a DRK or SAM's white damage. The pitfall is our WS damage since we have no WS increasing abilities(only Angon; which actually buffs everyone's WS damage but the parse will just reflect everyone else's damage being higher than ours and doesn't take into account how much extra damage everyone else's WS is due to us using Angon!)

[Rwolf]

Sincerely, if you start off by saying "To be honest if Call Wyvern..." then it is your reasoning. It might also be the development team's reasoning, but you've made it your own by tieing it to your own honesty. Not a jab at your integrity, I just felt the need that since you started your post of that way, to see how your prior post came off when reading it.

DRG is a stronger DD without its pet and I see the ratio you're trying to preserve in your opinion of what is balanced. And in the grand scheme, I don't disagree that DRG itself should be the majority of power in the job over other pet jobs. It's an aspect of what makes the job unique. However, with DRG lagging way behind other damage dealers. I don't think it's a bad thing for DRG to get a boost, especially via wyvern survivability. Also given that a good number of their job abilities are boosted or rely on the wyvern's survival.

In my opinion, I feel a dragoon shouldn't have to be without their wyvern for a prolonged amount of time unless it's intentional. It shouldn't be a case of well DRG has A+ skills and normal jumps to fall back on so they are good to spend up to 20 minutes without it. Because honestly without the wyvern they are even more further behind other damage dealers output and utility. So while I see you're trying to balance it on the scale of pet vs master. I'm looking at it on the grander scale as class vs class.

[Babekeke]

It's hard to say that our trade-off is that we have A+ skill in polearm, as I'm fairly certain that a SAM using eminent lance will out-damage all but a mythic DRG, with or without a wyvern.

I'd be interested to see the results if anyone has a well-geared SAM and an eminent lance (or can buy one).

The main thing going for us right now and has been for a while, is 25% damage bonus vs mobs weak to piercing. If what I'm suggesting is correct, then we've lost that to SE's little love-child again. (It happens every now and again, every time that SAM gets it's hands on a half-decent polearm. Tomoe at 75, Erebus's Lance at 85 cap, then Draca Couse all the way to 99. now in ilvl, it's Eminent Lance. If they ever put SAM onto a 119 weapon, DRG is as good as dead.)

[Mitruya]

Hm, well I think we can all agree that DRG needs a boost and a lower recast, while hoping they don't do some kind of nerf as a trade-off excuse.

[Ophannus]

Giving us our own native +Haste or +Attack ability would be a step in the right direction. The other 2handed jobs have at least one of those but we must rely on a sub to get it and most 2handed jobs sub either WAR or SAM and have both a haste ability and an attack ability(WAR/SAM=Berserk+Hasso, SAM/WAR=Berserk+Hasso, DRK/SAM=Last Resort+Hasso, DRG/SAM=Just hasso, DRG/WAR=Just Berserk). It sucks that our only ability which grants a boost in attack speed is Spirit Surge(1min duration; 60min recast) when a Dark Knight gets the same Attack Speed boost from Last Resort(3minute duration, 5minute recast). A miniature version of Spirit Surge that boosts Attack and Attack Speed that we can use every 5 minutes with a 3 minute duration would drastically help DRG stay in the game. We've lacked 'Attack' for a long time and coupled with the fact that Drakesbane has an attack penalty with no Berserk or Warcry to back it up, its damage is miniscule even with Ryunohige compared to other weaponskills.

In short give us a stance JA already, we have 0 self buffing abilities, when our Wyverns die we're useless and wyverns die when the Dragoon dies. When a SAM dies, in 3-5minutes they're back to full power when weakness wears off. When a DRG dies, they're not at full strength for up to 20 minutes! If a DRG's wyvern dies(or if the Dragoon itself is killed) in the first few minutes of a battlefield, the DRG's effectiveness is DRAMATICALLY reduced for the entire duration of the event. No berserk to fall back on, no useful abilities to fall back on, just a polearm using job with a few accuacy bonuses and half-baked Jumps that deal mediocre damage and give roughly the same TP as a regular attack, compared to other melees which are pumping out 8k weapon skills with their Overwhelm/Berserk/Restraint/Souleater/Last Resort/Warrior's Charge/Blood Rage/Impetus/Boost/Warcry/Hagakure.


One of the things DRG has been pining for a decade is a job ability boost to our attack power or JA Haste that isn't our SP ability to call our own.

[Tennotsukai]

Yes, please give drg an extreme buff. They are lacking so far behind.

[Ophannus]

This isn't to say that we aren't gracious for all previous buffs. The +HP/Evasion/Parrying/40% wyvern damage taken were all swell and good for enhancing Wyvern and Dragoon survivability. Wyverns can take a beating but when fighting mobs such as Ark Angels who can do 2k AoEs instantly and do them frequently within 10 seconds of eachother, there's no way a Wyvern can survive that kind of damage. Either the dev team needs to reduce the power of AoEs(why can Ark Angel EV use 2,000 damage AoEs every 5-6 seconds?) or shorten the penalty a Dragoon suffers for being killed with the Wyvern out.

When other damage dealers die, they're handicapped for 3-5minutes. When a DRG dies, we aren't back to full strength for 20 minutes sometimes. That's a huge risk. Despite that 20min timeframe where the DRG is handicapped, when Call Wyvern is back up, we're still weaker than a Samurai or Warrior. So why invite a DRG whom deals less damage than other Damage Dealers, and when they die are even weaker for another 20minutes. What are they bringing to the table? Piercing damage? Rangers can do that from a safe distance and not get hit with a 2400 Arrogance Incarnate. Weapon Skills? Samurai weapon skills are far stronger. Auto attack DoT? Monks, DRKs, WARs got us beat there. Angon's defense down? There's COR and BRD for +attack, such that -def which is only on temporarily, is unreliable.

Simply the fact that Dragoons are handicapped for 20 minutes even after unweakening, and even with our Wyvern we're still weaker than other jobs, is disappointing. If we have to wait 20minutes for our Call Wyvern timer, then DRG ought to be one of the top 3 damage dealers with the Wyvern alive since it's so difficult to upkeep in hard content.

[Mitruya]

Yes, so many likes for your posts. Being a DRG ('cause no one ever considers a PUP ;p ) as a DD is like being the last kid picked to play on someone's team, when other jobs can do it better and there are only so many slots you can fill (or it's better to take less, not more).
It's really stupid to see the complete lack of variety in endgame options; you can't just pick up whoever is online and go play. I realize other DDs are feeling this pain also, not just DRG.

[Vasch]

DRG got hit with the nerfbat so badly last update by not getting any type of Drakes buff. I'm 28,000 alex in and done with everything else for my ryu and it's barely worth the gil to me to finish now. I'd do anything just about now to swap that stuff to a different weapon because DRG has just about faded into complete uselessness with these changes, even with a 119 Ryu.

[Camate]

Hello wyrm slayers,

I checked it with the development team to get some info about what’s on the radar for future dragoon adjustments.

Primarily the team would like to bring out the true value of dragoon as a damage dealing job that fights alongside a wyvern. As such, in the August version update we’ll be boosting the defense and magic defense of wyverns making them stronger against enemy AoE attacks, and we’ll also be decreasing the TP given to enemies by wyvern attacks by enhancing their subtle blow characteristics.

Additionally, we’ll be making modifications so that red lines do not emanate from wyverns when they use breath attacks so you’ll be able to clearly understand that they’re coming from an enemy.

For a version update to take place sometime after September, the team is also looking into increasing the magic accuracy of breath attacks and increasing the frequency in which they can be used, as well as a system that will increase battle capabilities when a wyvern levels up.

[Babekeke]

All positive at least! Not entirely sure how much of the gap will be closed by these updates alone though, but it's always nice to have a wyvern that doesn't die as often :)

[Afania]

All positive at least! Not entirely sure how much of the gap will be closed by these updates alone though, but it's always nice to have a wyvern that doesn't die as often :)


Unless wyvern can do 30% of DRG's dmg it's not going to fix anything.

[Mitruya]

Hmmm .... not sure whether to get my hopes up or not.

As much as I've been complaining about wanting the wyvern buffed, the master needs an att buff too. Otherwise this change wont help us get invites.

[Skeelo]

I cannot express how i feel on this forum or i will get banned. But you are making the funnest job in the game just awful. Boost drakes or give us an attack bonus pleaseeee. Wyverns suck for dmg and gimp themselves and the drg by doing a worthless breath every 6 seconds. Makes tp gain from spirit link worthless.

[Ophannus]

Any chance of enhancing Dragoon as a DD without the Wyvern? No matter how strong of a defensive boost you give to the Wyvern, the number one thing that kills Wyverns is the Dragoon dying. If the Dragoon dies, the Wyvern dies, and on bosses and NMs, that tends to happen due to extremely powerful AoEs being spammed with no way to avoid other than /NIN shadows(which is why people are primarily bringing RNG to most current battlefields and Delves. Halving Call Wyvern to 10min would be reasonable.

Additions to "Fly High" should be made such that Spirit Jump and Soul Jump retain their individual TP bonus and Critical Hit bonuses even if the Wyvern is not present. It would make Fly High more attractive as an SP abilitiy in that it would be fully effective whether the Wyvern is present or not. If our Wyvern isn't present but we need an SP ability, Spirit Surge is out of the question, but to have Fly High be ineffective due to not having a Wyvern is a bit much. At least make it so at least 1 of our SP abilites can be at full strength regardless of the Wyvern's presence.

A cherry on top for DRG adjustments would be for Spirit Surge to reset the Call Wyvern timer. It's often that Dragoons tend to not use Spirit Surge in a hard battle because it only lasts 60-80 seconds, afterwards the Dragoon's effectiveness is greatly reduced for the remainder of the battle(no other job or SP ability has this downside). Unless the Dragoon used Call Wyvern before entering the battle, and the battle progresses past 20 minutes, can the Dragoon use Call Wyvern again after Spirit Surge. Due to this, most Dragoons won't use Spirit Surge because after it wears off, we can't use Spirit Jump, Soul Jump or Restoring Breath any more.

[Martel]

I'd like spirit and soul jumps wyvern bonuses to be active during spirit surge. The wyvern IS present after all... in spirit. <,<

If the wyvern jump bonuses were present, then spirit surge and fly high could become synergistic. Rather than being completely pointless to stack.

Rather than Having spirit surge reset call wyvern, I'd much rather the wyvern just reappear after spirit surge wears off, without consuming call wyvern recast. Because even if spirit surge reset call wyvern recast, after spirit surge, you'd use call wyvern and use the recast again. Then you've got 20 mins where if the wyvern, or you, die you're outta luck. Because of this, I rarely ever use spirit surge.

[Ophannus]

It would be great if the 2 SPs for DRG could stack and be synergistic instead of counterintuitive. SE will probably say "use the right ability depending on the situation", but WAR, SAM, MNK can stack both of their SP abilities simultaneously for tremendously powerful boosts to their capabilities for 30-60 seconds.

As a DRG, if I use Spirit Surge, it's almost always for the JA haste boost which is neat and all but as soon as it wears off, I'm left without a Wyvern for some time(assuming I summoned my Wyvern at the start of the battlefield/Delve). That being said, being left without a Wyvern after Spirit Surge almost negates the damage boost during the SP ability because now I lost the special bonuses to Spirit Jump and Soul Jump and now Fly High becomes a lot less powerful because, lets face it, Fly High is a terrible SP ability if the Wyvern is not present, or if you have Ryunohige. With Ryunohige, Jump and High Jump do respectable damage due to Ryunohige's special crit bonus, but without Mythic Polearm or Wyvern, Fly High is very ineffective(Jumps are slow and their damage is not much better than a regular attack and the TP gain is slower than auto-attack at high Haste values).

Something needs to be done to either boost Spirit Surge and Fly High or change their Wyvern dependance. Since Spirit Surge handicaps the Dragoon for up to 20minutes by killing the Wyvern, it needs to be adjusted so that after the SP ability wears off, the Dragoon isn't handicapped(no other SP ability handicaps the player like Spirit Surge does). I propose the following modest adjustments:

1) Let Spirit Surge reset Call Wyvern upon use.
2) Allow Fly High to guarantee the Wyvern Bonus properties to Spirit Jump and Soul Jump even if the Wyvern is not present.

Mijin Gakure was adjusted in the recent past to grant Reraise to the Ninja since they faced a similar problem; their SP ability handicapped the player and was too inconvenient to use. DRG's SP1 is similar in that after using the ability, we are in a state of weakened performance unless we had the Wyvern summoned before entering the battle and had let enough time elapse for the ability to cooldown completely.

The aforementioned adjustments would allow DRG to still have be just as effective AFTER using Spirit Surge as BEFORE they used Spirit Surge. If Spirit Surge is going to HANDICAP Dragoons for up to 20minutes after use, then either make it a lot stronger or better duration, or let it reset Call Wyvern timer. The adjustment to Fly High would grant us an SP ability that's useful in hard fights where our Wyvern cannot be used(due to the magic damage from Elemental Breaths triggering some kind of dangerous mob behavior like Perduable Raptor in Fracture or Ironclads in Raz'kanar Skirmish) or in situations where the Dragoon was killed with the Wyvern out(kills the Wyvern) or the Wyvern itself was defeated from high damage/Death/Doom). That would allow DRG to retain at least one SP ability that its effectiveness is not contingent in any way on our pet like Spirit Surge is.

[Zerowin]

Mijin Gakure was adjusted in the recent past to grant Reraise to the Ninja since they faced a similar problem;
I'm sorry what?

[Tennotsukai]

I wouldn't be surprised if drg receives several max hp boost traits this upcoming update along with the other jobs receiving it. Of course, this won't fix drg.

[Rendra]

Just leaving this here
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/43864/ses-response-to-drgs-future-as-a-dd/
Lets hope someone from the community team will show this to the Dev Team.

[Babekeke]

Spirit Surge should not only reset the Call Wyvern timer, but if the wyvern is currently dead, it should call out a fresh one then instantly consume it! At least then the JA has SOME use, even if it's just as an emergency way to get a new wyvern when timer is down!

[Ophannus]

Meant to say Mijin was adjusted to not have a weakness state.

[Ophannus]

Spirit Surge should not only reset the Call Wyvern timer, but if the wyvern is currently dead, it should call out a fresh one then instantly consume it! At least then the JA has SOME use, even if it's just as an emergency way to get a new wyvern when timer is down!

I thought about this but then I thought that to be fair, SP1 should fully rely on Wyvern and SP2 should not rely on Wyvern at all. I think it's better that way

[Babekeke]

I thought about this but then I thought that to be fair, SP1 should fully rely on Wyvern and SP2 should not rely on Wyvern at all. I think it's better that way

I can understand your thinking, but consider that every other job's SP abilities have a use, either as an "Oshi'" moment, or as part of a strategic plan to take down a NM.

Spirit Surge, on the other hand has no real strategic use, other than perhaps for a non-Gungnir DRG to use when Angon wears for the def down from Jump. It's certainly no use in an emergency (unless that emergency is 1 of the DDs would REALLY like to Reduce their enmity?!?), since it makes you even more useless (can't use that extremely potent Healing Breath ((Which, ironically, is of more use than SS!))) and also actually reduces your damage output (OK, I've not done the maths, but I can't imagine your damage going up all that much just for having slightly higher stats and 12% more haste in a capped magic haste situation - unless you're /WAR and you've timed it perfectly so that you just used both jumps and healing breath and SS will wear before the timers are up?).

This is why I think that having SS recall the wyvern even if it's been killed, as well as resetting the timer, is a necessity. Remember that it's not too OP, since the wyvern called won't have been levelled up at all, so it's just your basic wyvern that you're getting the stats from.

[Ophannus]

The extra haste putting you at cap makes a notable difference during zergs, for certain. It's just that, you lose your Wyvern and Spirit/Soul Jump, so its like it buffs some things but nerfs other things but the net result is positive but not as much as it could be. It's too much of a mixed bag SP ability.
Haste
Max HP Boost
Potent Heal
STR Boost
Accuracy Boost
Jump/High/Super Jump Bonuses
Resets Jump Timers
Added Base DMG

It does a lot, it's a decent SP ability but since it kills the Wyvern it leaves the DRG at a disadvantage unless the Dragoon had their Wyvern summoned long before entering the battlefield or Delve and allowed the Call Wyvern timer to reset to 0 before Spirit Surge was needed. If the DRG used Call Wyvern before entering the fight, died sometime in the middle of the fight, used Call Wyvern after unweakening and used Spirit Surge on the mega boss, then the DRG will be without the Wyvern for the duration of the fight.

It would be just awesome if Spirit Surge reset Call Wyvern or if the Wyvern is dead and Spirit Surge is used, Call Wyvern is reset and then the SP ability is used right away, this way we don't have to waste a potential 20min recast Job Ability to activate our SP ability, especially if the DRG recently died shortly after calling their Wyvern and the Call Wyvern JA is at like a 15min recast.

As strong and powerful as they buff Wyverns' defenses, the #1 most frequent way Wyverns are defeated in battle is because they disappear when the Dragoon dies. No matter how much magic defense and defense they give to Wyverns, if the Dragoon dies, the Wyvern dies. The only way to mitigate this is to shorten the Call Wyvern recast to ~10minutes, or allow Spirit Surge to either reset the Call Wyvern timer or, allow the use of Spirit Surge without a Wyvern(in which case the animation can be adjusted to make the Wyvern temporarily appear, then be absorbed, similar to Odin/Alexander during Astral Flow.

[Babekeke]

I'm not sure how often people use /SAM over /WAR in end-game now, but while Hasso is in effect, SS only gives an extra 2% haste, since that's all that you are from cap under max magic haste and gear anyway (though that is a further delay reduction of 9%).

And strangely enough, I don't think that I've EVER even used SS since usually the only time it would come in useful is when something bad happened and either my wyvern died, or I'm really going to need cures from it.

On that note, if SS was used because you see something bad coming that's going to kill your wyvern when it's already low on HP, do you only get a boost of the wyvern's remaining HP? And do you still get his max added to you, so that you can be cured up a lot more?

[Skeelo]

Are they even trying anymore?

Dragoon Spirit Link Effect Reduces caster's HP consumption when Spirit Link activates.
Reduce HP consumption by 1 percent.

Wyvern Max HP Bonus Increases the maximum HP of wyverns.
Increase max HP by 10.

[fillerbunny9]

Are they even trying anymore?


the short answer is: nope.

Dragoon has been in a piteous state for years, and trying to place emphasis on a pet with a twenty minute cooldown shows how utterly and completely out of touch they are. Dragoon needs an attack buff, its weaponskills need an attack buff, and the Wyvern needs to not be a complete joke. THF can crap out a 9k Rudra's Storm no problem while DRG is struggling to pull a 5k Stardiver on the same mob with the same buffs. Drakesbane at the very least should have had its BS attack penalty removed at this point, but hey, we can't have a Mythic DRG coming close to the insanity that a Tsurumaru Samurai can pull off; that'd be imbalanced!

I am 15k Alexandrite from finishing my Ryu, and having not turned in a single piece am thinking I may just redo assaults and make a weapon for a job that will actually get to be used every now and then rather than sit on my mannequin.

you want Dragoon to be a pet job, SE? then you need to make the pet at least CLOSE to Automatons/Avatars/Jugs. the pin prick damage and animation lock from breaths render the pets about as effective as throwing Pebbles.

[Xsilver]

Ryuno feels worthless. Drakesbanes do 2-4k on most NMs in delve, Stardivers do 3-5k, sometimes spiking a bit higher, usually doing its best on Delve 1 NMs (in which case it's about 6-7k). Overall DRG feels weak unless buffed to the teeth and fighting weak content. No matter how much defense they give the Wyvern, as soon as the DRG dies, the Wyvern dies, even if the DRG dying isn't even the DRGs fault! A bad pull or a faulty healer could mean the DRG dies prematurely and then he's left in the dust by other DDs for 20minutes. Even when the Wyvern is alive, the DRG is far behind Samurai.

They also need to rebalance Skillchain damage because the way it is now, Samurai's skillchain damage alone is higher than most other damage dealers.

[fillerbunny9]

at this point, it isn't even Samurai's skillchain damage, so much as being able to push out 10-20k Fudos every few seconds with a weapon that is both easily obtained, and at this point, outpacing the Relic for the job! if Dragoon could do WS for 10-20k with Upukirex while everyone else was lagging behind, can you imagine the outcry? how swift the emergency maintenance to "return balance" to the game would be?

this thread could easily have been answered with a magic 8-ball: Outlook Not So Good.

[Ophannus]

Also I want to add, Polearm has the weakest of the updated weapon skills.

Great Sword has Torcleaver which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Great Katana has Tachi: Fudo which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Great Axe has King's Justice which is 7.0 fTP at 300%
Scythe has Insurgency which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Hand to Hand has Howling Fist which is 8.0 fTP at 300% and Raging Fists which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Dagger has Rudras Storm which is 8.0f TP at 300%
Club has Black Halo which is a 7.0 fTP at 300%

At best, Polearm has Impulse Drive which is 6.0 fTP at 300%, and Drakesbane still has a massive attack penalty. Not only are Polearm weaponskills very weak, but DRG doesn't have many JA, stances or traits to boost their weapon skill damage like WAR DRK MNK SAM do and Wyverns are not going to close the gap because they can't be targetted with songs or rolls so their damage output is miniscule, unless the next update is going to increase their damage output by like literally 1000%(then maybe they would parse 5-10% damage and not 0.5-1% in a Delve).

[Reichleiu]

Also I want to add, Polearm has the weakest of the updated weapon skills.

Great Sword has Torcleaver which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Great Katana has Tachi: Fudo which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Great Axe has King's Justice which is 7.0 fTP at 300%
Scythe has Insurgency which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Hand to Hand has Howling Fist which is 8.0 fTP at 300% and Raging Fists which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Dagger has Rudras Storm which is 8.0f TP at 300%
Club has Black Halo which is a 7.0 fTP at 300%

At best, Polearm has Impulse Drive which is 6.0 fTP at 300%, and Drakesbane still has a massive attack penalty. Not only are Polearm weaponskills very weak, but DRG doesn't have many JA, stances or traits to boost their weapon skill damage like WAR DRK MNK SAM do and Wyverns are not going to close the gap because they can't be targetted with songs or rolls so their damage output is miniscule, unless the next update is going to increase their damage output by like literally 1000%(then maybe they would parse 5-10% damage and not 0.5-1% in a Delve).

I have this funny feeling that the Devs don't test this game in the same manner we, as players, actually play it. The only way they can think that buffing the wyvern is going to do anything is if they don't play with any BRD + COR buff combo at all. If no one had any buffs, our wyverns might actually do half-decent damage comparatively. But when the DRG Master, SAM WAR MNK and DRK all have capped or near capped haste, +1237193781231 Attack, and capped/near capped accuracy... buffing the wyvern a little isn't going to mean squat.

But who knows.. I have very low expectations but the "Offensive Buff" is another update away.

They do need to give us a better WS though. Our WSAVG is way too low compared to other jobs with the similar/better WS frequency, specifically SAM.

[Watts101]

Not only are Polearm weaponskills very weak, but DRG doesn't have many JA, stances or traits to boost their weapon skill damage like WAR DRK MNK SAM do and Wyverns are not going to close the gap because they can't be targetted with songs or rolls so their damage output is miniscule, unless the next update is going to increase their damage output by like literally 1000%(then maybe they would parse 5-10% damage and not 0.5-1% in a Delve).

I recently reviewed the amount of Job traits that Dragoon has compared to other damage dealing jobs and I want it noticed that, even when including multiple tiers of a job trait, Dragoon has only 11 Job traits compared to the 20 even 30 job traits (including successive tiers) of other DD jobs. We get: Attack Bonus II (22 attack), Accuracy Bonus III (33 Acc.) and Conserve Tp (which is more of a random bonus than a reliable Damage trait.)

Everything else that we receive, as far as damage improvements goes, is obtained through jumps and maintaining the bonuses that come from having your wyvern present. With the coming Sept. update I'll be the first to express gratitude to the development team for implementing the coming changes into Dragoon's array of benefits. I also enjoy the connection of those benefits to the wyvern.

Giving dragoons job traits that improve the strafe ability I feel is a step in the right direction, but it's only a baby step. Naturally the dev. team wants to maintain balance of the battle mechanics and so changes are going to be gradual.
My suggestions for continuing along the path of improving our side by side companionship of our wyverns includes the following:

1. Please allow the Item level or +skill of our main hand weapons to also improve our wyverns attack and accuracy or implement something of a similar nature. As I understand it, Our wyverns are essentially Level 99 without any accuracy or attack bonuses (unless using food and Lancer's Plackart +1/+2 full time.)

2. Please give Dragoon Teir 4 access to both Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus job traits. Considering the new adjustments to improve atk% I would be satisfied with ACC bonus IV.
Please also consider giving dragoon the "Critical Attack Bonus" Job trait. This would also be a welcome adjustment, it would improve the Damage output from jumps, while the wyvern is present, and it would also begin to address the lacking power of Drakesbane.

3. Please improve the amount of control allowed to players over their wyverns actions. This may include:
a) controlling when the wyvern will use its TP for improved function of spirit link.
b) Implementing a physical alternative to the wyverns TP actions, allowing for controlled use of magical damage. "This was a problem with multiple delve monsters where no magic damage was allowed, which also meant the Dragoon's DPS suffered heavily dropping them in terms of priority for DD positions"
c) Improve the power of a wyverns damage breaths, we've been asking for it nicely and not nicely. The use of job abilities and gear to improve the capabilities of our pet comes at the price of reduced DPS yet again, improving the damage from the wyverns breaths reduces the negetive side effects of Job ability delay and gearswapping side effects.

4. Please review and improve polearm weaponskills. As has been stated in this thread; Polearm Weaponskills are currently under-powered when compared to other weapon skills. I think the majority of players using Dragoon will agree that polearm weapon skills have been lacking for awhile, we would like to be considered among the top DD choices. Currently, We find minor niche use when fighting monsters weak to piercing damage, a perk that is shared and overshadowed by Ranger (Jishnu's Radiance, Coronach: Need I say more?)

[Bebekeke]

After having a play with DRG since the September update, using Spirit Link once seems to be enough to cap your wyvern, as my attack is going from 1000 to 1199 with a single Spirit Link. (19.9%) Cap is supposedly 20%, though it will be done as 51/256 or something that doesn't quite work out, hence it being less.

So this is good news^^

[Martel]

After having a play with DRG since the September update, using Spirit Link once seems to be enough to cap your wyvern, as my attack is going from 1000 to 1199 with a single Spirit Link. (19.9%) Cap is supposedly 20%, though it will be done as 51/256 or something that doesn't quite work out, hence it being less.

So this is good news^^How many empathy merits do you have? If you're at 5/5, then yeah it'd cap in one go. 200 wyvern exp per merit(including the first.) 1k cap. 200*5 = 1,000. If you aren't at 5/5 then.. weird.

[Bebekeke]

How many empathy merits do you have? If you're at 5/5, then yeah it'd cap in one go. 200 wyvern exp per merit(including the first.) 1k cap. 200*5 = 1,000. If you aren't at 5/5 then.. weird.

Yeah, apparently I'm 5/5. It's certainly a nice att/def boost, though it's hard to notice the haste when soloing and not specifically parsing the difference.

Time to upgrade my gear now that DRG is worthwhile once again...

[Xsilver]

Dragoon is actually a solid DD now, on par with MNK DRK WAR I'd wager. Still nowhere near the damage of SAM, but I think SAM is unintentional strong due to the recent SC adjustments which favors SAM and their SC bonus abilities greatly.

[Bebekeke]

Dragoon is actually a solid DD now, on par with MNK DRK WAR I'd wager. Still nowhere near the damage of SAM, but I think SAM is unintentional strong due to the recent SC adjustments which favors SAM and their SC bonus abilities greatly.

The SC bonus is completely irrelevant. A SAM can do more damage in 1 WS than a DRG can do in a WS, 2 jumps, then another WS, or 2 sekanokki'd WS with SC.

[Reichleiu]

The SC bonus is completely irrelevant. A SAM can do more damage in 1 WS than a DRG can do in a WS, 2 jumps, then another WS, or 2 sekanokki'd WS with SC.

Not in Incursion.

Our WS damage is significantly closer than before.. and lets be honest, no SAM is self-skillchaining at an event with 2-5 other DDs fully buffed. Not to mention DRG should be spamming Camlann's Torment in Incursion which opens and closes skillchains with whatever Samurai go on the run.

So far it seems that SAM and DRG are pretty equal in Incursion, and then there is everyone else. Of course.. I am talking from the standpoint of Koga and Ryu DRG.

[Bebekeke]

Not in Incursion.

Fair enough, I haven't tried that yet. I haven't managed to get enough Acc to set my DRG upon top level content yet ><


no SAM is self-skillchaining at an event with 2-5 other DDs fully buffed.

Konzen-Ittai


I am talking from the standpoint of Koga and Ryu DRG.

I very much doubt that non-mythic sam and non-mythic drg are so close though. Mythic has almost always been much closer to other DDs than non-mythic.

[Xsilver]

Kozen-Ittai can be 'stolen' by the next WS from any player hitting the mob and 99% of the time it will be during that 1 sec JA delay window if there's other DDs with HasteII/Marches.


Stardiver is very inconsistent in Incursion, it average ~3-5k depending on Angon, although sometimes I get inexplicable 10ks. Att is very important, so GEO makes or breaks stardiver's consistancy. That being said, as pointed out before, Camlann's is better for a variety of reasons; namely because it opens/closes light which works for Fudo/V.Smite.

Also on boss, with AM3 I like to:
Sekkanoki>Jump>High Jump> Camlann>Camlann>Fly High>High Jump>Camlanns>Jump> Camlanns> Jump> Camlann>High Jump Camlann etc

Get off a lot of light skillchains in that period of time if lucky on DA/TA procs on Jumps.

[Bebekeke]

I assume you mean Spirit Jump and Soul Jump, not Jump and High Jump?

And how much are Camlann's doing compared to SD?

[ChrisChua]

I think you missed the part that said WITH AM3 UP which relates to having mythic (mythic crits only jump and high jump not spirit/soul).

[Xsilver]

No i meant spirit/soul lol

I didnt parse but Camlanns were doing 4500-6000. Stardivers were doing 2300-10,000 with a median of I'd say ~ 5k. In the end they probably equal out but Camlann's has a higher chance of closing/opening a Light SC when you have like 3-4 DDs with capped haste. Hard to parse because rolls/songs are always being dispelled. But when you lack attack songs or rolls, Stardiver does more consistent 5-6.5k with occasional wtf spikes of 8-10k(probably an Angon'd mob and AM3 proc). Though stardiver has a higher dmg potential, Camlann's is likely to either close a SC(if you get lucky and nobody uses a WS after a fudo) or opens a SC for someone else(most likely a Tsusumaru SAM's fudo). X-hit builds are funky because AoE are flying everywhere and often times i jump from 70-80% TP to 120-130% instantly due to capped haste and AoE damage, not to mention Amnesia and mobs running around or saving TP because the mob is <5%.

[Xsilver]

Would be neat if when you use Steady Wing before activating Spirit Surge, it gave you your Wyvern's Stoneskin effect :)

[V-1000]

may be a total drg ws noob but i am very curious as to why do drake and i assume some other polearms have atk penalty in the first place?

[Martel]

The only other one I know of with an atk penalty is Penta Thrust. Which was, of course, DRG's primary WS pre-Drakes. .... .... I really don't know why they did that. Drg was formerly just about the most atk starved DD out there. Why they felt the need to gimp both it's good WS back then... I could not say.

Well, Stardiver doesn't have a atk penalty at least. But I'd really rather they buff Drakes so I can use it again. <,<

[bungiefanNA]

Penta Thrust used to be broken way back when, before additional hits had TP gain reduced. Penta Thrust used to return almost 100 TP (out of the old 300) if all the hits landed.

[Martel]

Actually, it returned about 65~ TP, depending on STP, which there was veeery little of back then. The real monster from back then was Asuran Fists using relic H2H(the 999 delay ones not saph.) Which returned something like 120 TP and let them WS literally non stop.

And if that old mechanic was their reason for the atk penalty, then it should have been removed when TP return was patched.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

I was wondering what other weapons received a penalty for there ws's because of the old days and have not been fixed since? How many are there still remaining??

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

Glamding as you said in this thread Dragoon Shortcomings (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/46952-Dragoon-Shortcomings) about pet wyverns not having pet foods or some type of item that act's like pets foods and pup's automations box parts. I totally agree that maybe there is something wyverns could use a food item to heal itself or make itself stronger by the player using that item to heal a wyvern/other and that combined with a new breath ability that could heal itself quickly as well as idk increase its attack ability? May be off a bit as dd but somehow bst like?

?Job Trait: Critical Pet Attack

Job Trait: Critical Pet Hit

I'm Sure there could be more??

[Ophannus]

Wyverns survive for days, it's dragoons that die, but they have helped mitigate that by giving us a perma 20% def while Wyvern is out and leveled up, which makes us passively, the most resilient DD job.

I just wish DRG had a few more JAs to use, another jump, a new buff ability, something. We haven't gotten any new JAs since 95 cap. Maybe they can borrow ideas from FFXIV's DRG. Life Surge could be a critical hit rate boost for 30-60sec, Power Surge can double the base damage of the next Jump,.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

They gave the wyvern two small graphic heads with separated necks to have summoned upon calling our Drg's fourth??:)