Dipper Yuly TH

[Gotterdammerung]

Main Thf's recently received a change to TH. It can slowly build up thru atks and SA and TA.

Jug pets have jobs of their own. I might be a beastmaster but my Nursery nazuna is a warrior. a full fledged warrior with Job traits n everythin.

Dipper Yuly is a main job thf. Proof- it has Treasure hunter II and evasion bonus traits

So why doesnt my dipper's TH climb randomly when he attacks?

[Cream_Soda]

Proof- it has Treasure hunter II
How do you know this for certain ?

[Gotterdammerung]

I recorded tests during trials. figured i might as well since im killing a buttload of monsters anyway. no /thf no dipper= significantly less items from bombs. TH1 1 only (didnt have 90 cap yet)= a noticeably more items from bombs than no dipper or TH. No /thf but with dipper = noticeably more items than TH1 from bombs. each set 150 bomb kills. Buncha other people tested this when it first came out to. Everyone got the same results. It has TH 2

[Cream_Soda]

That's not proof, that's suggestive at best, with such a small sample size.

I'm not saying it doesn't have th2, but even if it does, your test does not amount to the word, "Proof"

Just sayin

[Gotterdammerung]

Almost everything we know as players is speculation. we have proven most of it to ourselves but its still not technically Proven. Pointing it out doesn't make you clever. It makes you annoying and disruptive.

Heres a point for you. SE knows for sure whether or not dipper has the full job traits of a thf of equivalent lvl. I think that makes them more than qualified to handle my question.

Stop nitpricking

[Cream_Soda]

But you just nitpicked my post.

[Gotterdammerung]

Except i didn't. Nitpick originated as a word describing the practice of picking parasites out of hair. the practice took an above average attention to detail as parasites are small and hard to see in hair. It is now used to describe sumone who gets stuck on the tiny minutia instead of seeing the "bigger picture".

I stated that your entire premise was annoying and disruptive. I wasn't hung up over 1 individual word.


And no this response isnt nitpicking either.
You used the word wrong. I am correcting you.

B.T.W. Your Siggy is addictive

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It has TH2, so Cream_Soda is just after a nice good troll.

[blowfin]

How do you know this for certain ?

Um, it was tested? Derp.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dipper_Yuly

[Cream_Soda]

Um, it was tested? Derp.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dipper_Yuly
Ok, so I see that it at least has th1 and SPECULATION that it is possible it may have th2.
That link doesn't give anything that I didn't already know.

Tests mean nothing when they don't provide any answers. I never said anything about th1, I said asked how it was sure it had th2 and not th1 instead.


May have TH1 and/or TH2, but unconfirmed as of yet.


Not exact, but enough to notice the difference between some TH and no TH. 1000 would help tell whether it has TH2 or not


It looks like she has TH1 + TH2, but I clearly need a lot larger sample to prove one way or the other.

Ok, so you linked me to a page that said the exact same thing that I've been saying this entire thread?

Derp for you?

[blowfin]

Looks pretty solid to me. Go out and test it yourself if you're so dubious?

Original "derp" still stands.

[Cream_Soda]

Looks pretty solid to me. Go out and test it yourself if you're so dubious?

Original "derp" still stands.
What part of "I need a larger sample size"
"It might have th1, but it might have th2"

Was solid to you?


Again, I said you don't know for sure if it has th2, not that it doesn't have th2.


I don't need to test it. I'm not saying it does or does not. I'm saying you don't know for sure, which you don't.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Looks pretty solid to me. Go out and test it yourself if you're so dubious?

Original "derp" still stands.

They'd need to have levelled BST first, and they haven't.

[blowfin]

Meh, the drop rate looks close enough to TH2 given some sort of allowance for randomness. The test wasn't huge, but it also wasn't ridiculously small either.

Again, want to prove it conclusively (in your own mind)? Go out and do it yourself.

[Cream_Soda]

Meh, the drop rate looks close enough to TH2 given some sort of allowance for randomness. The test wasn't huge, but it also wasn't ridiculously small either.

Again, want to prove it conclusively (in your own mind)? Go out and do it yourself.
I don't need to prove it. My only point is that its not currently proven. There is nothing for me to prove.

[blowfin]

I don't need to prove it. My only point is that its not currently proven. There is nothing for me to prove.

You're proving quite a bit by continually posting in this thread.

[Gotterdammerung]

the census admitted dipper has TH under the "most popular jug selection" explanation paragraph.

Also we know it has TH 2 because of it level. It gets treasure hunter and evasion bonus and gilfinder because it is a thf job much in the same way the warrior jug pets get atk bonus and def bonus and crit dmg bonus and fencer. So back to the original question....

If thf's treasure hunter has a chance to increase with melee, and dipper yuly is a thf, then why doesnt dipper also have a chance to raise TH when meleeing?

[SNK]

How do you know this for certain ?

It was actually tested right after the Jug Pet was released with Gil Finder and TH broski. Most people are in agreement that's it's Treasure Hunter II at best. I've had good luck with the shitty lil bug when I solo farm NMs for gil but yeah it's a good guess that it's TH2.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

So why doesnt my dipper's TH climb randomly when he attacks?Because you're not a main thf, it only works main thf. You, are a bst, regardless.

[Gotterdammerung]

Because you're not a main thf, it only works main thf. You, are a bst, regardless.

But its a function of a job trait. Dipper yuly IS a main thief, and therefore gets all the job traits of a main thf of his lvl. So why does the job trait function differently for him?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

But its a function of a job trait. Dipper yuly IS a main thief, and therefore gets all the job traits of a main thf of his lvl. So why does the job trait function differently for him?No, TH ONLY functions that way then your main job is set to thf. SE stated it that would work that way. It functions for the bug exactly the way it functions for everyone who is not a main thf.

[Louispv]

No, TH ONLY functions that way then your main job is set to thf. SE stated it that would work that way. It functions for the bug exactly the way it functions for everyone who is not a main thf.
But Yuly is a main THF, just like nazuna is a WAR and Lars is a DRK.

Isn't the climbing TH level part of TH3 anyway? Since she's only got TH2, of course it doesn't happen. SE, of course, didn't give her TH3 because then THF is worthless again. Same reason they don't let bounty shot go past TH level 4.

[Gotterdammerung]

And your still missing the point. I am not dipper yuly. Dipper Yuly is not me. I am not a main thf. Dipper Yuly IS a main thf. Dipper Yuly's main job is set to thief. Dipper Yuly is a Main Thf. What works for a main thf should therefore work for dipper yuly.

It has nothing to do with me. It doesnt matter what job I AM on. Dipper yuly has HIS OWN JOB. She is a seperate entity. She is a Main THF

[Gotterdammerung]

But Yuly is a main THF, just like nazuna is a WAR and Lars is a DRK.

Isn't the climbing TH level part of TH3 anyway? Since she's only got TH2, of course it doesn't happen. SE, of course, didn't give her TH3 because then THF is worthless again. Same reason they don't let bounty shot go past TH level 4.

If you happen to summon a lvl 90 dipper yuly (a 1/6 chance without monster gloves) then it will have TH3. Pets with jobs gain all the job traits of that job equal in power to their lvl. You can test this with several traits from other pets if you would like. For instance counter II on merle or Fencer IV on any of the millions of war pets.

[Xanaduu]

i thought the TH lvl only raises when a thf lands a sneak atk from behind... if thats the case, then dipper wouldnt get the increase cause it doesnt get access to JAs like SA or bounty shot~

[Xanaduu]

oooook just looked it up, so it is w/ standard atks that it increases but then again.... this is SE w dealing with... who knows how they wanted it to be set up as

[Areola]

But Yuly is a main THF, just like nazuna is a WAR and Lars is a DRK.

Isn't the climbing TH level part of TH3 anyway? Since she's only got TH2, of course it doesn't happen. SE, of course, didn't give her TH3 because then THF is worthless again. Same reason they don't let bounty shot go past TH level 4.

Btw bounty shot DOES go past TH4 I've gotten up to TH6 before(i got bored waiting for a trial nm to spawn). Also TH3 and the ability to increase it on a jugpet wouldn't make a th6 thf worthless. dipper would never be able to build TH on a mob at the rate that a player on thf could

But judging by the huge jump in popularity of bst in the past year it looks as though SE doesn't want to give the job too much or to little. This might be there way of keeping it balanced. Because SE very good at keeping jobs balanced*sarcasm*

[Tsukino_Kaji]

But Yuly is a main THF, just like nazuna is a WAR and Lars is a DRK.Whatever your pet is never has and never will matter because YOU are not a thf.

[Gotterdammerung]

Whatever your pet is never has and never will matter because YOU are not a thf.

It does matter. Pet get jobs. They get all the job traits of that job at full strength equal to their lvl. I think that is more than enough proof to state that Dipper Yuly is a main thf.

This precedent has already been established. This particular case is the ONE instance where a pet did not receive the full strength version of their natural Job trait. I think its more than fair for the bst community to ask why. And i also think its more than reasonable for dipper to have a climbing TH. As stated b4 in this thread, upgrades to TH thru melee are very rare as upgrades usually come via SA and TA, so Players on main thf would not be threatened. No one would prefer a dipper yuly over a player on thf.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

There is no proof anywhere that pets have jobs and any evidence you can present will never be more then circumstantial at best. Just because a bug has TH, dose not make it a thf. And it still boils down to one fact. YOU are not a main thf and that is how SE has made the trait work. ONLY if the player has their main job set as thf.

[Gotterdammerung]

Dipper doesn't just have TH. She has ALL the thf Job Abilities...
and i don't even think you know what circumstantial evidence means. Been watching too many cop drama's, might need to wiki that term.
The fact that pets have jobs is easily tested.

Some job traits are not as obvious as others, but even the subtle ones can be inferred. And the blatantly obvious ones are concretely testable.
Gilfinder for instance. Or Crit damage bonus.

AND even if all these things were "circumstantial evidence" it still wouldn't matter. The very nature of circumstantial evidence is that it does not stand alone. But that does not make it worthless. Circumstantial evidence is often compiled in law to form "Corroborating evidence" which can be solidly used to reach an accurate conclusion.

And for your next statement. "Only if the player has their main job set as thf."
You are merely stating the way things work now. Thats hardly a reason to keep them the way they are now.
And also the way things are now does not concretely imply SE's intent. Its possible SE never considered this issue because dipper is a monster and monsters like a kindred thf dont get climbing TH. It could alredy be set up that way in the code. We know the game mechanics work differently for players than they do for monsters. And until recently pets were treated as monsters not players (this has been a blurred line lately where pets are starting to get the worst of both worlds).

Anyway, This forum exists so players can feed input to the developers. Dipper is a thf and i feel should get the true full strength Treasure hunter of a thf. And as such i have made this thread to point out this discrepancy to the Dev team.
I am really not interested in why YOU think they didn't. (i doubt anyone is interested) It's off topic and pointless. If you don't like the idea, then JUST SAY "i dont like it" AND if u actually have a reason why you don't like it, then SAY THE REASON.
Example: "i think it would take away from thfs feeling special"
Then we can actually have a conversation about the points of contention you bring up. However babbling out circular logic like "Its obvious SE nvr intended for it to work that way because it doesnt work that way" is annoying.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

And as a bst, I believe this is wrong and should not happen.
Also, it doesn't matter how many traits it has. The previous point is still valid.

[Gotterdammerung]

No its not valid.
Your implying that only players have jobs. This is false. Monsters and Npc's have jobs also. And if u wanna say that a kindred "summoner" walking around with an avatar in tow is circumstantial then go ahead. While your at it you can go tell Zeid he isnt a dark knight. Our beastmaster pets are monsters. All monsters have jobs. Ergo, our pets have jobs.



You should just leave it at

as a bst, I believe this is wrong and should not happen.


And move on.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Then you're saying an earth elemental is a blm on the sole fact it can cast quake. Players like to arbitrarily assine roles to things, it makes them believe they have a better handle on things. That they understand how the game works. Jug pets are not monsters either, their items. And the point is still valid as SE has stated that it only works main thf only. You're still completely ignoring the fact that YOU are NOT a thf, no matter how much you want to claim an item as a thf, YOU still are NOT one.

[Gotterdammerung]

So the kindred thief is not really a thief... wow. Just wow. Hold on a second... wow.


Ahaha wait... my bug floating around is really an item?! Awesome! i cant wait to call beast then shove dipper into my Dbox...


If it seems to you that I think I have a "better handle on things" then maybe its because I HAVE A BETTER HANDLE ON THINGS.

Like for instance, I know that the word "Main" simply refers to your main job. You see in this game there is this thing called a main job and another thing called a sub job. We call these 2 things by different names so we can tell them apart. A "Main" is what job you are currently on. So like since a kindred thf is a THF, his "main" is THF. And since dipper yuly is a THF, his main is also thf. Now "Sub" thats a secondary job tacked on and limited to half the value of your main job.

And i am NOT ignoring the fact that i am not a THF. But YOU however ARE ignoring the fact that my Dipper IS a main THF.

[Felren]

Trolls will be trolls~

I wouldn't really agree with letting dipper stack TH though. If you didn't know, you can start stacking TH as a lowbie thf, even before TH3. It might even be as early as TH1, but its a main job only thing. This TH stacking thing adds job security, and I really don't think Bst should get it. Granted I don't even think Rng should have gotten bounty shot, but that's a whole different story.

Just the TH2 on dipper alone was a big surprise to put on a jug pet in the first place.

I still think bst could use more group utility than damage, but this should probably stay with thfs..... and rng >.>.

[Xilk]

The treasure hunter level indicators were added into the game interface. They are not at the same part as the job traits.
I'm very confident that if you have a level 90 Yuly, you will start w/ th3 when using it.

I have no idea if TH will level up above 3 when just yuly is hitting. I would not be surprised if it went either way However, its actually not as hard to test now. Not hard at all really. A bst and thf duo can go do it. let Yuly hit something for awhile, then send the thf in w/out and th+ gear on and see what the 1st level of TH the message raises it to.

IF you can get a message that shows it was above level 3 before the THF main hit it, then it should show the possibility.

EDIT: Follow-up:

I posted these thoughts onto a testing thread on ZAM. It didn't take long for it to be followed up on:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=8&mid=1298635397162868956&p=3#110

It looks like Yuly has TH3 and it will not build up higher than this like a thf main. More testing might be helpful, about building up higher, but it does confirm th3 on level 90 Yuly.

[Raka]

Um, it was tested? Derp.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dipper_Yuly

Dipper is loved so much that it has an extremely happy face in the link! <cheer>