[dev1216] Weapon Skill Adjustments

[Byrth]

Weapon Skill adjustments look great. Good job!

If we could get the 100, 200, and 300 TP anchor points in the official update notes, that would be awesome. =p


For those that are having difficulty interpreting the post, a few notes:

1) Weapon Skills currently have stat modifiers that determine base damage. The magnitude of these modifiers matters more for high fTP WSs (WSs with a lot of hits or high first-hit fTP) than for WSs with low fTP. So SE's decision to increase Evisceration (realistically a 6 fTP base) from a 30 to 50% DEX mod is more significant than, say, their decision to increase Tachi: Kaiten from a 60% to an 80% STR mod (3 fTP).



2) Weapon Skills also use TP Anchor Points to determine the effect of TP over 100 (fTP+, Crit rate +%, Additional effect duration, etc.) The way that it is commonly represented, TP modifier is calculated piecewise like this:
TP modifier = Bottom Anchorpoint + (Top Anchorpoint - Bottom Anchorpoint)*(TP - Bottom Anchorpoint TP)/100

So the 100 TP and 200 TP anchorpoints determine the potency of TP between 100 and 200 TP. The 300 TP anchorpoint is only used if you have 200-300 TP (rarely), so it's not very important.

So you can translate:
* "TP bonus increased when the bearer has 1,000 or more TP" = They've increased the 100, 200, and 300 TP anchor point. Very important, as it will directly affect the WS's TP modifier's potency at every TP level.
* "TP bonus increased when the bearer has 2,000 or more TP" = They've increased the 200 and 300 TP anchor point. Important, as it will affect the potency of TP over 100.
* "TP bonus increased when the bearer has 3,000 TP" = They've increased the 300 TP anchor point only. Kind of unimportant, because you rarely WS with between 200 and 300 TP.



3) SE also provided some helpful Notes. Some of them are obvious, but some are more obscure:
* "The attack power of the weapon skill itself will also be raised." - This likely means that they're changing the fTP of the weaponskill. So Death Blossom has this note and currently has a first-hit fTP of 1.125. It's likely going to increase. This is probably also what they mean for Primal Rend, although that's less clear.
* "Twofold attack for the first stage only" - This note on Exenterator is very ambiguous. It seems to imply that they're doubling attack on the first hit (a la Viper Bite).
Kincard says: "The Japanese version says "Double Damage for First Strike only"
* "The calculation used for determining maximum damage will be adjusted." This note on Atonement indicates that they're going to increase its damage "cap", which was currently 750.

[Rubeus]

exenterator stage1 went down to 2 attacks instead of 4. just pointing that out.

[Byrth]

You didn't read the OP. Just pointing that out.

[Demonjustin]

I like a lot of the changes, but I'm also very disappointed in the fact some WSs got no change at all. An example for instance being Knights of Round, it's still STR: 40%, MND: 40%, that means this WS won't really have any use at all still. Right now it doesn't beat CDC hardly ever, when it does Req beats it instead(mind you this is for RDM) which means KoR currently has no use. While Death Blossom has some hope thanks to an adjustment to what is likely it's fTP and Atonement is getting an adjustment to the cap it seems that KoR is just going to be left behind.

[Arbalest]

So, does this mean that for Rune Fencer, we'll be seeing some slightly-higher damage numbers?

[Alhanelem]

Some good changes in there. Should in some cases expand the viable WS options.

[Angrykitty]

wow, wonderful fixes... just thrilled.


Now, if we could only fix the players.

[Unelonborro]

Hello, everyone!

Japanese QA pointed out two errors in the original post (in all languages), and I would like to share it with you all here (who wants to wade through pages of weapons skills just to find two changes--although I'll make sure we get that cleaned up, too.)

* Thunder Thrust (Polearm weapon skill): STR 40% DEX 40% INT 40%
* Raiden Thrust (Polearm weapon skill): STR 40% DEX 40% INT 40%

Hopefully this error didn't cause too much consternation, but I wanted to keep you abreast of the correct information.

Happy hunting!

Unelonborro
EN Localization Team

[Demonjustin]

Hello, everyone!

Japanese QA pointed out two errors in the original post (in all languages), and I would like to share it with you all here (who wants to wade through pages of weapons skills just to find two changes--although I'll make sure we get that cleaned up, too.)

* Thunder Thrust (Polearm weapon skill): STR 40% DEX 40% INT 40%
* Raiden Thrust (Polearm weapon skill): STR 40% DEX 40% INT 40%

Hopefully this error didn't cause too much consternation, but I wanted to keep you abreast of the correct information.

Happy hunting!

Unelonborro
EN Localization TeamWhile I'm sure it's not possible for this update I'd really appreciate it if you could point out to the team that Knights of Round is severely underpowered right now compared to other Sword WSs, never is it better than it's Empyrean or Merit counterparts. As a result of this update the gap will grow even larger and this WS isn't being adjusted at all. I'm sure there are some others similar to this but I don't play anything but RDM anymore so I can't say for certain, that said I'm sure others will point out any I'm not aware of.

[Zerowone]

What about Physical Blue Magic Spells? Under the effects of Chain Affinity and Azure Lore they are considered to be Weapon Skills. Will there be an adjustment to their Attribute/TP modifiers, when under those conditions, in the near future?

[Olor]

Thanks for the notes Byrth. Has anyone done math yet to guess which WS will be way more useful after the update? I'm interested in seeing what becomes more viable.

[Byrth]

These weaponskills are likely going to be even more useful now than they already were. Keep in mind that the exact "goodness" of each WS will depend on the exact changes that SE makes. They're really changing a lot, so the hierarchy could shift substantially. Anywhere that they're changing 100 TP fTP could be very important, but it's possible that SE will introduce much higher 200 TP fTPs that make it worthwhile to build TP instead of going 0->100 -> WS. We will have to see.

List of weaponskills may see some use:
* H2H - Victory Smite, Stringing Pummel, and Ascetic's Fury (last one could be a dark horse new-best-WS)
* Dagger - Evisceration for spamming (Mordant or Pyrrhic for the respective mythic users). Rudra's Storm, Mercy Stroke, and Mandalic Stab will be fighting for SA/TA opportunities. (Mandalic Stab dark horse)
* Sword - CDC is even better than it was. Atonement and Death Blossom have both improved quite a bit.
* Great Sword - Resolution and Torcleaver (uses are probably unchanged)
* Axe - Ruinator and Primal Rend (uses are probably unchanged, but Primal Rend will be very useful if level 75-style BST play ever comes back)
* Great Axe - Ukko's Fury, Metatron, and Upheaval all benefit (The real change this set of WSs needed was additional effect accuracy)
* Scythe - Catastrophe, Entropy, and Quietus (Quietus dark horse)
* Polearm - Drakesbane, Stardiver, and Camlann's Torment (Camlann's compliments DRG's defense down abilities and might not totally suck now)
* Katana - Blade: Hi, Shun, Ku, Kamu (Blade: Ku/Kamu dark horse)
* GKT - Tachi: Fudo and Shoha (Rana's changes are insufficient and Ageha's additional effect proc rate needs a boost)
* Club - Realmrazer (Mystic Boon will be useful in the same ways it always was)
* Staff - Vidohunir, Shattersoul (Vidohunir dark horse)
* Archery - Jishnu's Radiance, Apex Arrow, Namas Arrow (Namas isn't adjusted, but it will still be used)
* Marksmanship - Coronach, Trueflight, Leaden Salute (Mythic WSs dark horse)


If I was going to summarize the adjustments, I'd say that (with the exception of King's Justice, Insurgency, and Tachi: Rana) it looks like SE is buffing most Mythic weaponskills enough to make them competitive with the merit weaponskills. We aren't going to know just *how* buffed they are until tomorrow, so it's difficult to draw further conclusions. I would be supremely unsurprised if we found out that, for instance, Ascetic's Fury / Mandalic Stab / Leaden Salute / Trueflight / Blade: Kamu / Primal Rend / Death Blossom / etc. were all worth using now.

[Olor]

Thanks for the informed speculation Byrth! Looking forward to tomorrow.

[Camate]

Greetings,

I’m glad to see the excitement for these adjustments. How has everyone been finding the revamped weapon skills thus far?

I wanted to stop in here and point out some things about the weapon skill adjustments that were made yesterday in relation to NPCs.


Enemy NPCs
Certain enemies that use abilities that have the same name as the weapon skills that players use (Maat, Atori-Tutori, etc.) will also receive the effects from these adjustments.

However, when it comes to the Ark Angels and shadow-type monsters in Adoulin areas, even though the abilities may have the same name, data-wise it has been set differently and they will not receive any effects from these adjustments.

We will, however, be making adjustments to the enemies that have been affected by these adjustments in the July version update, and will be restoring them back to their original strength level.


Adventuring fellows, alter egos, and other ally NPCs
The weapon skills that adventuring fellows and Trust alter egos utilize will also receive the effects of these adjustments.

Similarly, campaign ally NPCs are also affected at the moment; however, in the adjustments that are planned for the July version update we will be returning them to their original strength.


On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.



While I'm sure it's not possible for this update I'd really appreciate it if you could point out to the team that Knights of Round is severely underpowered right now compared to other Sword WSs, never is it better than it's Empyrean or Merit counterparts. As a result of this update the gap will grow even larger and this WS isn't being adjusted at all. I'm sure there are some others similar to this but I don't play anything but RDM anymore so I can't say for certain, that said I'm sure others will point out any I'm not aware of.

The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

[Aeron]

Greetings,

I’m glad to see the excitement for these adjustments. How has everyone been finding the revamped weapon skills thus far?

I wanted to stop in here and point out some things about the weapon skill adjustments that were made yesterday in relation to NPCs.


Enemy NPCs
Certain enemies that use abilities that have the same name as the weapon skills that players use (Maat, Atori-Tutori, etc.) will also receive the effects from these adjustments.

However, when it comes to the Ark Angels and shadow-type monsters in Adoulin areas, even though the abilities may have the same name, data-wise it has been set differently and they will not receive any effects from these adjustments.

We will, however, be making adjustments to the enemies that have been affected by these adjustments in the July version update, and will be restoring them back to their original strength level.


Adventuring fellows, alter egos, and other ally NPCs
The weapon skills that adventuring fellows and Trust alter egos utilize will also receive the effects of these adjustments.

Similarly, campaign ally NPCs are also affected at the moment; however, in the adjustments that are planned for the July version update we will be returning them to their original strength.


On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.




The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

I'd like to ask how the DEV team plans to resolve the ongoing issues with enmity control for tanks and melee dds? With this update not only did melee dds get and increase in ws dmg but as an increase to tp/hit which will equate to and increase in ws frequency. The crusade spell is not sufficient enough at providing the necessary adjustment to enmity to be able to tank properly. While I like the increase in dmg potential the rate of enmity generation is even worst off now it seems then it ever was. What's the point in reducing the dmg/enmity ratio even to like 20% of normal if you have sams that can do 13k fudos it just doesn't make sense from a tanking perspective. Tanks and I mean all tanks need some form of hate lock mechanic to be able to perform its job without the use of rngs as well as the addition of hate control ja mechanics for all dds. The mechanic so should have so moderate form of cooldown such that its possible to reliably reduce a dds hate. I also suggest a enmity bar to asset players in this determination. I understand the problem of just increasing the hate cap for tanks, this is why I also suggest giving more dds the ability to innately control their own enmity lvls besides turning. Turning is one of the worst hate controlling mechanics in the game. To suggest that in the middle of a battle and you were to grab the attention of a powerful monster that you would turn your back to it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at least from my perspective.

[Damane]

I'd like to ask how the DEV team plans to resolve the ongoing issues with enmity control for tanks and melee dds? With this update not only did melee dds get and increase in ws dmg but as an increase to tp/hit which will equate to and increase in ws frequency. The crusade spell is not sufficient enough at providing the necessary adjustment to enmity to be able to tank properly. While I like the increase in dmg potential the rate of enmity generation is even worst off now it seems then it ever was. What's the point in reducing the dmg/enmity ratio even to like 20% of normal if you have sams that can do 13k fudos it just doesn't make sense from a tanking perspective. Tanks and I mean all tanks need some form of hate lock mechanic to be able to perform its job without the use of rngs as well as the addition of hate control ja mechanics for all dds. The mechanic so should have so moderate form of cooldown such that its possible to reliably reduce a dds hate. I also suggest a enmity bar to asset players in this determination. I understand the problem of just increasing the hate cap for tanks, this is why I also suggest giving more dds the ability to innately control their own enmity lvls besides turning. Turning is one of the worst hate controlling mechanics in the game. To suggest that in the middle of a battle and you were to grab the attention of a powerful monster that you would turn your back to it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at least from my perspective.

this isnt the only problem this update has thrown everything out of proportion and has imbalanced any kind of balance that was approaching.
- Enmity was thrown off more due to increased damage from melees (albeit enmity never worked properly before)
- Ranged attackers were thrown back a bit more due to the massive increase of some frontline Wss (fudo...)
- Nukes in form from spells have died now totally off. There is no chance for any nuker to catch up dmg wise now, and if you need magical dmg the elemental magic weaponskill provide now a very good alternative if properly geared (depending on job and WS). Nukers just started recently to catch up, and with a bit more powerfull gear we maybe would have gotten to a point as a respectable alternativ.
- pet jobs are affected too, not like they were allready behind and started to catch up slowly now, but the WS increase has thrown them at the frey back again. pet dmg is neglectable now, all that counts is how fast can the master generate TP to WS. You are hurting yourself now more trying to gear hybrid with your pet in mind then focusing on your own DD output yourself as a master.
- BLU magic needs now a total overhaul AGAIN (it needed one before too)

honestly was excited for the WS update, but it was more harm then good tbh and drained 75% of the jobs down the toilet with the ecxeption of WHM BRD SAM and of course PLD and RNG for those fights you want to avoid haveing melees in. there isnt even a need for nukers anymore, self SC from SAM will get rid of any delve 2.0 aura or deal enough magical dmg to down any mob that is weak to magic since SCs cant be resisted anymore

good job Dev Team, as much as i like my new melee toys, the update disgusts me more atm.

[Olor]

On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.


Thank you for this niblet of info Camate. Can you please please please please emphasize to the Dev Team that massive adjustments are needed especially for BST? We have to spend a lot of money to play and we are the worst DD in the game. SMN easily outparses us. As another poster noted there is no point in even trying to gear to improve pet damage output, because you have to sacrifice too much and the pets are too weak. At least PUP can put on a WHM auto and still be somewhat useful and not have to gear to help their pet damage.

I'm also really disappointed that NONE of the augments of 115 gear included any stats for pet jobs, or for any kind of specialist job whatsoever.

I'd also like to echo those saying magic jobs are getting shafted again by this update. They have artificial limitations in terms of MP, and magic damage scales very poorly.

[Demonjustin]

The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.Sorry to tell you this but you thought wrong. As someone who's owned an Excalibur for more than a year now I can safely say that Requiescat beats it's DMG every single time unless the enemy's DEF stat is too far above your Attack stat, but when the tables turn in Knights of Round's favor Chant du Cygne wipes the floor with it and so too does Death Blossom now.

Knights of Round used to be at least somewhat competitive with Death Blossom which was our 3rd best WS, but neither came close to the numbers CDC and Req were putting out, now it's so far behind by compare to the other 3 that it's flat out worthless. You're talking about a 1-hit WS with 40% STR and 40% MND mods vs 2 3 hit WSs one with 30% STR and 50% MND, the other with the ability to crit as well as an 80% DEX modifier, then you have a 5 hit WS that ignores damage reduction and has a 100% MND modifier. The 1 hit doesn't stand a chance and you even buffed Death Blossom which in all honesty has the same modifiers practically and was stronger to begin with. Not buffing Knights of Round because it's already strong enough is a laughable idea.

I don't mean to sound rude, but everything that takes away from my job annoys the **** outta me, and this is a case of being so very, very wrong about something that something isn't being done that should be on the premise that a WS which has been the weakest WS I could use since CDC was unlocked without requiring Almace, is good enough already.

[Olor]

Knights of the Round "is thought to be powerful"?

Not by anyone who actually plays the game. Seriously - do the devs ever play the game? Do they even check to see if what they "think" is anything close to reality? It's very disappointing to see statements like that. I'm sure you're just conveying what you've been told you can say Camate, but... really?

[Alhanelem]

Greetings,

I’m glad to see the excitement for these adjustments. How has everyone been finding the revamped weapon skills thus far?

I wanted to stop in here and point out some things about the weapon skill adjustments that were made yesterday in relation to NPCs.



Enemy NPCs
Certain enemies that use abilities that have the same name as the weapon skills that players use (Maat, Atori-Tutori, etc.) will also receive the effects from these adjustments.

However, when it comes to the Ark Angels and shadow-type monsters in Adoulin areas, even though the abilities may have the same name, data-wise it has been set differently and they will not receive any effects from these adjustments.

We will, however, be making adjustments to the enemies that have been affected by these adjustments in the July version update, and will be restoring them back to their original strength level.


Adventuring fellows, alter egos, and other ally NPCs
The weapon skills that adventuring fellows and Trust alter egos utilize will also receive the effects of these adjustments.

Similarly, campaign ally NPCs are also affected at the moment; however, in the adjustments that are planned for the July version update we will be returning them to their original strength.



On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.




The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.
Oh, so this must be why I've never seen anyone use Knights of Round in recent memory.

[Sasaraixx]

Camate,

Thank you for the update. I do hope that you will pass on to the dev team the concerns people are raising in this thread. Further, it would be even better if we could have some sort of official response to these items. I am happy to hear that more is coming for pets, avatars and automations, but these 2 points also need to be addressed.
1. Enmity control:
This issue has yet to be properly addressed and now it seems as if the problem has gotten worse with the update. The spells added for the tank jobs appear not to be sufficient and there still has been no update to the SCH enmity spells. A large scale change needs to happen here and the jobs that currently have enmity tools need to have those abilities and spells enhanced.
2. Magical damage:
With this update magical damage has fallen even further behind melee damage. Any monster that required magic damage can now be handled by elemental weaponskills or skillchains. The potency of elemental magic needs to be increased again and MP efficiency improved or there has to be some other crucial benefit to bringing a mage for damage. At the very least, BLM (and SCH) should be able to fill a similar role to RNG - a ranged DD that is able to shed hate. Perhaps mages could also receive a trait that allows them to better exploit elemental weaknesses of monsters. It would not only effect resist rate but also increase damage. BLM (and avatars) would receive the highest tier of this trait followed by SCH, RDM and GEO. I'm grasping at straws I realize, but something needs to happen.

[Aeron]

I hate to sound ungrateful after an update and all. I know the dev team put in a lot of work to make these adjustments. Everyone who has brought up issues with the update cares about the current status of the game. I can go into old threads on most of the job forums and see most of the same major issues that we are bring up and that is very disheartening. Whether it be the enmity issue, magic dmg, or pet jobs not being competitive it really feels like the only jobs that work are the only ones that everyone keeps shouting for (Pld only works indirectly through the use of rngs).

I have Excalibur and it has never been better to use Kor over Req or CDC.

[Minikom]

may DEV team explain us why insurgency and coronach didnt get boost? if you check stats modify, they arent great compareted to the post adjustment,
insurgency is str and int 20% which is really low for this weapon skill, we know hiddent effect on coronach but is this the main reason why wasnt boosted?
apocalypsis got a nice drain effect too and can be is adventagous if compareted to other ws

[Malithar]

may DEV team explain us why insurgency...

Insurgency actually got a rather massive boost. Copy/pasta from BG: (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/121610-Rehauled-Weapon-Skills-tier-lists?p=6143161&viewfull=1#post6143161) Insurgency: 1000 TP: 0.5 > 2000: 3.5 > 3000: 6.5

Credit to Indalecia for data, Motenten for figuring out the fTP values.

[Belmonts]

The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

Sorry, Camate. Despite the fact that I do love my Excalibur (was a dream come true when I got it as a hardcore RDM) KotR is not powerful.

So yeah, the word "thought" has the right use; because it does live in the world of ideas. Nothing compared with the sad reality.

Please, please, do adjust it like you folks did with empy weapons skills.

[Alhanelem]

I really don't get why they said "is thought to be powerful."

How about actually testing and seeing if it IS powerful rather than "thought to be" ?

edit - fixed to be actually readable lol

[Babekeke]

Makes me laugh how they say that a 40% STR mod is a 'high stat modifier' compared to the other options, which are all at least 80% of 1 stat or another, or a combination of 2 stats.

Something that I haven't seen mentioned in here yet in regards to the new WS mods is that for RUN, Dimidiation seems to generally wipe the floor with Resolution. Spinning Slash and Ground Strike can put out even bigger numbers, but I assume that it's only on a multi-hit proc since they're 1-hit WS. Also Power Slash is comparable to resolution when it crits, though it's terrible still when it doesn't (this was vs the reive blockades in cirdas caverns, not in abyssea!). It needs a lot more testing, as my sample size was tiny for all ws apart from dimidiation vs resolution. Also I was RUN/BLU with no food and no att buffs from my brd trusts who always seem to favour march/madrigal. So maybe resolution will be better with higher att? idk.

[Demonjustin]

With most WSs it seems they were aiming at an 80% total for mods when it comes to RME WSs. This isn't a bad idea, but not all WSs are equal in other fields which is why this is a total failure in a balance perspective. An 80% DEX 3-hit crit WS will completely destroy a 40% STR 40% MND 1-hit non-crit WS in all situations, that's also ignoring fTP which the 3-hit has 2.25 and the 1-hit has 3.0, a difference which is more than made up for by the multihit & crit factors.

Death Blossom has 50% MND and 30% STR but only 1.125 fTP so far as BG says but I doubt that's since the update, either way it's a 3-hit same as CDC and even has an additional effect. Perhaps if the KoR Aftermath wasn't trash it wouldn't be such an issue since we'd have a reason to use it then, but it's a laughable 10 Regen which is a whole .5% or less HP and is completely pathetic by compare to other Regens of today like SCH's or WHM's where you're looking at 50~80 Regen... The point of this update after all was to have more WSs that are good to use in different situations, making Regen worth while at least would facilitate some use that's apart from simply more DMG.

[Babekeke]

With most WSs it seems they were aiming at an 80% total for mods when it comes to RME WSs. This isn't a bad idea, but not all WSs are equal in other fields which is why this is a total failure in a balance perspective. An 80% DEX 3-hit crit WS will completely destroy a 40% STR 40% MND 1-hit non-crit WS in all situations, that's also ignoring fTP which the 3-hit has 2.25 and the 1-hit has 3.0, a difference which is more than made up for by the multihit & crit factors.

Death Blossom has 50% MND and 30% STR but only 1.125 fTP so far as BG says but I doubt that's since the update, either way it's a 3-hit same as CDC and even has an additional effect. Perhaps if the KoR Aftermath wasn't trash it wouldn't be such an issue since we'd have a reason to use it then, but it's a laughable 10 Regen which is a whole .5% or less HP and is completely pathetic by compare to other Regens of today like SCH's or WHM's where you're looking at 50~80 Regen... The point of this update after all was to have more WSs that are good to use in different situations, making Regen worth while at least would facilitate some use that's apart from simply more DMG.

Is it like the invigorate regen from Chakra, that can't be over-written by more powerful ones as well? That was particularly annoying.

[Demonjustin]

Is it like the invigorate regen from Chakra, that can't be over-written by more powerful ones as well? That was particularly annoying.Since it's Aftermath it's able to stack with all other forms of Regen, that said it's so weak that it's just flat out not worth wasting TP on since 10 HP/Tick is never THAT appealing.

[Tptn937]

I would really appreciate it if BLM got a wider variety of staff weaponskills, such as Cataclysm. Also, I believe that higher tier magic spells need to be boosted in accordance with higher damage physical AND magical weaponskills that are now available.

[dasva]

So think a lot of those "acc or even some crit rate and such varies with tp" moves should be updated to dmg... this update did crazy things for a lot of the dmg varies with tp meanwhile the acc ones got jack. For example ruinator vs resolution. Before the update at 100% they were fairly even in terms of stats though obviously resolution being on a 2hd weapon would do a decent bit more anyways. And at higher tps a bit more better. Now ruinator is effectively the same at all tp levels but resolution basically triples in dmg taking it to 300%. And this is common right now when comparing the ftps of 1hd ws now and 2hds. The differences is are huge especially when you consider 2hd ws already benefit from having higher base dmg weapons. Like kat and swd wielders barely changed.

[Olor]

1-handed weapon users, pet jobs and magic DDs pretty much fell even further behind this update

[Camate]

Greetings,



Enmity control:
This issue has yet to be properly addressed and now it seems as if the problem has gotten worse with the update. The spells added for the tank jobs appear not to be sufficient and there still has been no update to the SCH enmity spells. A large scale change needs to happen here and the jobs that currently have enmity tools need to have those abilities and spells enhanced.

We understand the concerns about enmity for tanks due to the weapon skill adjustments, but we would like to take some time to monitor the situation with the new enmity spells that were introduced along with the amount of enmity being generated by damage dealers. The June version update introduced various adjustments that largely changed battle balance, so we need a bit of time to monitor and discuss how battles have changed.





Magical damage:
With this update magical damage has fallen even further behind melee damage.

We’d like to make adjustments to the stats of elemental magic, and in particular, the higher tier spells. While this is still in the planning phase and I can’t make any promises at the moment, we are looking into making adjustments to the ratio of damage to MP of tier-V elemental magic spells so that they can be used better in battle.

[Demonjustin]

I hope RDM's elemental magic will be brought up as well, having V be more powerful than IV is obviously important but if it's too much more powerful RDM's nuking abilities will be disregarded, please don't forget that.

[Ophannus]

Perhaps RDM can get a spell that enhances their own Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack, something a bit better than Gain-INT and Gain-MND.

[Cabalabob]

BLU magic also needs looking into, since the WS update I find myself using physical BLU magic less and less and magical BLU magic has never been good. The only spells I ever seem to use anymore are buffs and ones to set traits.
Magical BLU magic has it particularly bad the gap in balance seems to be like

Weapons skills > physical blue magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magical blue magic

[Arbalest]

BLU magic also needs looking into, since the WS update I find myself using physical BLU magic less and less and magical BLU magic has never been good. The only spells I ever seem to use anymore are buffs and ones to set traits.
Magical BLU magic has it particularly bad the gap in balance seems to be like

Weapons skills > physical blue magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magical blue magic

I agree completely. It takes a whole lot of prep, time, and care with your gear to make magical BLU worthwhile to use.. and even then, you still have to nuke pretty much in melee range. The cast times are long, the MP cost is pretty huge, and you usually don't see a whole lot of damage. They REALLY need to look at physical spells too.. make them almost on par with most WSs, or at least make them do some notable damage against larger enemies.

Aside from that, Sword WSs didn't see that many changes at all.. and really fell behind every other DD with the adjustments.

[Tennotsukai]

I agree completely. It takes a whole lot of prep, time, and care with your gear to make magical BLU worthwhile to use.. and even then, you still have to nuke pretty much in melee range. The cast times are long, the MP cost is pretty huge, and you usually don't see a whole lot of damage. They REALLY need to look at physical spells too.. make them almost on par with most WSs, or at least make them do some notable damage against larger enemies.

Aside from that, Sword WSs didn't see that many changes at all.. and really fell behind every other DD with the adjustments.

I feel they are going to ignore us on this request. There's like no JP blu community so it's rather neglected by the dev team.

[mattkoko]

Sorry to change the subject a little bit here, but I was wondering if anyone has tested the scythe weapon skills since update? Because from what I have seen, I haven't noticed much of a difference with any of the weapon skills. I was hoping SE could maybe address this. Or at least give a reason why to completely over look scythe. Is it because scythe has more damage per hit? I would love a response from the development team if at all possible. Don't get me wrong, I love great sword and I like the boosts Great Sword got. But Scythe just really seems to be lacking.

[Byrth]

I won't say that their buffs to Scythe were as big as their buffs to Great Sword, but they didn't forget Scythe:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Insurgency
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Entropy

They more than doubled the fTP of these weaponskills at 300 TP. Insurgency is particularly striking, as its combined base damage multiplier (including extra hits and assuming ~20% DA) goes like this:
3.9 -> 6.65 -> 9.4
Considering WS delay and the nearly-linear scaling, Insurgency users might as well sit on TP essentially until they are at 300 TP (or at least until someone uses a WS they can skillchain off of). It is a very unique playstyle right now.

[Demonjustin]

I won't say that their buffs to Scythe were as big as their buffs to Great Sword, but they didn't forget Scythe:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Insurgency
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Entropy

They more than doubled the fTP of these weaponskills at 300 TP. Insurgency is particularly striking, as its combined base damage multiplier (including extra hits and assuming ~20% DA) goes like this:
3.9 -> 6.65 -> 9.4
Considering WS delay and the nearly-linear scaling, Insurgency users might as well sit on TP essentially until they are at 300 TP (or at least until someone uses a WS they can skillchain off of). It is a very unique playstyle right now.Well on that same subject then, is there any word on how Death Blossom is Byrth? :o

[Raydeus]

Finally a reason to use 300 tp? That's insanity.

[Byrth]

Well on that same subject then, is there any word on how Death Blossom is Byrth? :o

There hasn't been sufficient testing to say for sure, but it looks like they bumped the first-hit fTP up to 2.0 (from 1.125) and called it a day. If that is correct, then it's better than it was... but CDC is much better without Murgleis.

CDC - 3 hits, 80% DEX, 2.25 first hit fTP, can crit and has a modest crit rate boost at all levels.
Death Blossom - 3 hits, 50% MND / 30% STR, 2 first hit fTP and can't crit.

So they have almost the same fTP, but CDC has a more useful mod and can critical hit. With Murgleis, I bet Death Blossom is better in places where you have a crap crit rate. Without Murgleis, it looks like CDC is going to be better almost everywhere because it can crit.

[Demonjustin]

Hmm~ ok! :D

I figured CDC would trump it still and any time I've meleed since the update it's shown, but I was more or less curious if it was due to the WS itself or my lack of a dedicated WS set for it. It's nice to know it might be a good WS once I finish my Murgleis, besides that the extra DMG at least makes it less of a loss on DMG when I do Difficult MPNMs I suppose. :o

[Sasaraixx]

Greetings,



We understand the concerns about enmity for tanks due to the weapon skill adjustments, but we would like to take some time to monitor the situation with the new enmity spells that were introduced along with the amount of enmity being generated by damage dealers. The June version update introduced various adjustments that largely changed battle balance, so we need a bit of time to monitor and discuss how battles have changed.




We’d like to make adjustments to the stats of elemental magic, and in particular, the higher tier spells. While this is still in the planning phase and I can’t make any promises at the moment, we are looking into making adjustments to the ratio of damage to MP of tier-V elemental magic spells so that they can be used better in battle.

Thank you for the response Camate. It's good to know that the team is considering these issues. I just hope they realize that there needs to be pretty far reaching changes to enmity and enmity altering spells/abilities.

Also, improving MP efficiency for higher tier nukes is a good start. I think the changes here need to be pretty extensive too. The dev team has done a good job including content that requires magic damage. (Kamihr delve is a good example of this.) The problem is it often isn't beneficial to have a BLM or SCH in the party because a melee job can handle most of these situations and are also more useful for the remainder of the run.

I also completely agree with the comments about blue magic.

Thanks again for responding!

[Babekeke]

One useful change for magic, would be to allow it to MB, even if someone has used a WS since the SC occurred. Currently you have to wait ~2-4 seconds to land your nuke for it to MB, but if another WS goes off before your nuke lands, your nuke won't MB!! :(

[AppropriateName5786]

One useful change for magic, would be to allow it to MB, even if someone has used a WS since the SC occurred. Currently you have to wait ~2-4 seconds to land your nuke for it to MB, but if another WS goes off before your nuke lands, your nuke won't MB!! :(

If they ever plan to boost magic damage output by altering MB mechanics, that honestly would be 1 step forward and 20 steps back. It would be best if they just fixed higher tier spells themselves.

[Malithar]

How would that possibly be 20 steps back? Not saying it'd fix things, but it'd certainly be better if SCs simply applied a debuff that lasted 5 seconds that allowed all spells to MB, without followup WSs or SCs removing it.

Magic damage still does fairly well, it just doesn't compare to buffed DDs, specially in stand-there-and-kill NM fights, or D+ content where the massive amount of -MDT/MEva/MDB destroys any chance of nuking decently. Did a Dho Gates CP party yesterday as Geo, was 7% behind a mythic Mnk, and 5-10% ahead of an Oats Mnk and Amano Sam, none of them brain dead players. Although the Sam was more concerned with running off and solo SCing a random mob and giggling like a school girl, so that prolly had a large part in him not doing better. Do decently well in Delves too, typically about 60-75% of a DDs DPS.

[Babekeke]

Byrth, any info on what is best for RUN since update, WS wise when /NIN? Stick with GS or go for Axe or Sword? And which WS would work out best for each weapon, bearing in mind no att boost from berserk/last resort.

Wiki pages for many of the WS don't appear to have been updated by anyone yet (if any testing has even been carried out on them, idk)

[dasva]

Axe ws basically got nothing from the update. Best ws is still ruinator and it didn't even get the boost from alpha removal. Swd mostly just gained better CDC (basically it went from being a little worse than req to being a little better) but RUN can't use that and req didn't get a boost. Sanguine blade got boosted (indirectly only though as far as we know) so kinda nice if you are trying to be self sufficient.... but resolution got an insane buff so you'd really kill your dps not using gswd. Actually in general 1hd weapons gained very little from the ws update while in general 2hd gained a lot so the gap between using 2hd and 1hd increased a lot this update to the point where the answer will be use a 2hd weapon if you can. Which is odd because I thought they were wanting to close the gap between 2hd and 1hd instead of further widening them

Notable exceptions are realmrazer got a good boost while it doesn't look like Shattersoul got anything (though that hasn't been tested and the magical staff ws got a decent boost)... but lol mage weapons right?

You can find testing and new stats on the thread on bg wiki though it's still in progress.

[Malithar]

Notable exceptions are realmrazer got a good boost while it doesn't look like Shattersoul got anything (though that hasn't been tested and the magical staff ws got a decent boost)... but lol mage weapons right?

Cataclysm is pretty crazy now. Gotten over 9000 (totally not an intended pun) AoE on everything around on Geo with 3000 TP. <_< Still good for a solid 3kish AoE nuke WS at 1000 TP too. WS set not even optimized for it, I just use it in my low tier nuke setup.

[Babekeke]

Which is odd because I thought they were wanting to close the gap between 2hd and 1hd instead of further widening them

The main thing to decrease the gap from what I can tell is that they allowed dual-wielders to get TP faster now.

And I think that most mythic/emp WS gained a bit for both 1H and 2H users, it's just unfortunate for RUN that they can't use any of them.

[Byrth]

Problem is that 1H jobs already get TP so quickly that they are severely handicapped by WS delay. At capped haste my dancer would gain 40% DPS if WS delay was eliminated. SE's proposed changes to dual wield will result in another 1 TP per hit for me, pushing me up to almost 7/hit, and it only boosts my DPS by 4% because of WS delay. Have to understand that more than a third of my time at capped delay is spent frozen by WS delay. Adding more TP gain just makes the problem worse.

[Demonjustin]

JA/WS Delay is what kills light DDs in general so far as I know. Heavy DDs don't suffer either as much. Post-cast delay hurts mages too though I understand why that's necessary in some form, otherwise the DPS on a BLM would be infinite.

[Olor]

Problem is that 1H jobs already get TP so quickly that they are severely handicapped by WS delay. At capped haste my dancer would gain 40% DPS if WS delay was eliminated. SE's proposed changes to dual wield will result in another 1 TP per hit for me, pushing me up to almost 7/hit, and it only boosts my DPS by 4% because of WS delay. Have to understand that more than a third of my time at capped delay is spent frozen by WS delay. Adding more TP gain just makes the problem worse.

So, do they basically need to just make 1-handed WS stronger in order for dual wielders to compete? Cause they seem to just be making us fall further and further behind.

[dasva]

The main thing to decrease the gap from what I can tell is that they allowed dual-wielders to get TP faster now.

And I think that most mythic/emp WS gained a bit for both 1H and 2H users, it's just unfortunate for RUN that they can't use any of them.

True though a lot are still not really worth using lol. Don't feel bad for Run though. Resolution got a huge buff and was already a great ws and Dimidiation is pretty dang good too

[Byrth]

So, do they basically need to just make 1-handed WS stronger in order for dual wielders to compete? Cause they seem to just be making us fall further and further behind.

What they needed to do was give every 1H weapon a WS that is so good at 2000 or 3000 TP that it's worth saving TP for and not just spamming something else at 1000 TP, similar to Insurgency. This wouldn't eliminate WS delay, but it would increase the time between our WSs substantially (and thus reduce WS delay).

To give a taste of what this would take, Rudra's Storm is currently the best dagger WS that significantly scales with TP. For DPS using unstacked Rudra's Storm's (at 3000 TP) to pull even with spamming Evisceration (at 1000 TP) for my setup even including WS delay, it would need a 3000 TP fTP of 14.5 (it currently has 8.5). So yeah, imagine a world where 3000 TP Rudra's Storm does *another* 60% damage post-update. That's the world we'd need to go to.

[Malithar]

Sounds like a missed opportunity. Maybe they'll revisit DW job's WSs again when they do the dedicated DW adjustments.

[Babekeke]

What they needed to do was give every 1H weapon a WS that is so good at 2000 or 3000 TP that it's worth saving TP for and not just spamming something else at 1000 TP, similar to Insurgency. This wouldn't eliminate WS delay, but it would increase the time between our WSs substantially (and thus reduce WS delay).

To give a taste of what this would take, Rudra's Storm is currently the best dagger WS that significantly scales with TP. For DPS using unstacked Rudra's Storm's (at 3000 TP) to pull even with spamming Evisceration (at 1000 TP) for my setup even including WS delay, it would need a 3000 TP fTP of 14.5 (it currently has 8.5). So yeah, imagine a world where 3000 TP Rudra's Storm does *another* 60% damage post-update. That's the world we'd need to go to.

For THF I assume it's worthwhile just waiting for SA/TA to be up again?

[Byrth]

I don't know how long you can wait on SA at the moment for it to still be a net increase in DPS over using Evisceration at 100 TP. I know that DNC can only go up to something like 150 TP and still get a net gain out of Climactic (ignoring the JA delay that goes into Climactic or the steps that generate those FMs.)

Bottom line is that at the moment you're best off just spamming the crap out of Evisceration against most targets.