[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ?? [Archive]

Alhanelem

06-04-2014, 01:28 AM

Why not just limit the number of jobs we can level if limits and specialization are the bees knees?
Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole. Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

It's about making your character different from others in small ways, and frankly I think it's even more important consider how easy it is now to get every job maxed. Why does standing out on your favorite job seem like such a terrible thing to you? It doesn't render your other jobs unplayable, especially under the ilvl system where gear > everything else.

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system.It's really not. Everyone who makes this argument acts as if the system prevents you from playing XYZ jobs when it doesn't at all.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

I've only bothered to cap 6 jobs. My merits are entirely focused on 2 of them. However, I'm completely still able to use the other 4 jobs in content. So, personally, I don't see the problem. You don't need the club or staff ws to play the jobs that use those weapons, you don't need all your merits in HP to be able to play a tank, you don't need all your attributes in INT to play your BLM.

The whole premise of the merit system was to give your favorite jobs a boost, not to lock you out of playing other jobs (and it doesn't).

Like I said, I can agree for "specialization" to a certain extent but I'd like to be able to 5/5 at least 2 more WS I'm totally fine with that, and it should totally happen. I'm only against completely removing all limits on everything.

Kensagaku

06-04-2014, 02:28 AM

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole. Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

I have to disagree with this, in a lot of situations. Without having the merit WS, you are often in a lot of situations where you are undesirable.

Shijin Spiral - Even if you have Victory Smite, there are times in Delve and in Skirmish III where you want to avoid magic damage, including Skillchain damage. Stacking Shijins is most effective in this situation, because they don't skillchain together. With MNKs being a common staple of groups, this tends to be important.

Requiescat - Being able to bypass defense types is vital in some situations; it makes the bee Delve easier, helps in Foret, etc. Formless is one of the few other forms of non-elemental damage we have, so this is a strongly useful WS. CDC is nice, but often doesn't stack up in newer content.

Resolution - If you're a DRK without this, kiss invites goodbye. Apoc with Cata isn't bad, but when you have healers, that extra survivability often isn't worth the DPS loss. RUN (if you can get invites in the first place!) benefits greatly from this for hate building. The DRK point is more relevant though.

Stardiver - Unless you have a Ryunohige, this is DRG's bread-and-butter WS. Critical Evasion- is a huge DPS boost for the whole alliance, especially those using crit WS such as Ukko's or Victory Smite. Drakesbane, short of a Ryuno, has a hard time competing. So this is fairly vital.

Last Stand - On COR, this is your WS of choice. Wildfire isn't bad, but it tends to get a fair amount of resistance of late, and there are monsters that you just need a physical WS. I'd say RNG but a "serious" RNG should have either Namas or Coronach available to them for low enmity.

Apex Arrow - Short of having a relic, this is the WS of choice for RNGs. Being a non-Relic RNG myself, I use this in events. While I'm not shot-for-shot keeping up with the relic users, my WS averages aren't terribly far from theirs, and allows me to be an effective DD. So short of requiring a relic, this and Last Stand are needed for RNG.

Ruinator - While Rampage is a doable WS, it is nothing compared to Ruinator's impressive damage. For BST, or for a WAR or RUN wielding axes (it does happen, situationally), this is the best WS available by a long shot.

So that's seven right there. And I'm sure other jobs need them in their own ways, but you could argue against their Empy WS too; Upheaval v. Ukkos, Shoha v. Fudo, maybe Apex v. Jishnu's. But while you argue that merit WS are just "customizations to improve your favorite jobs", often we don't get to play our favorite jobs, and we need to improve our quality on other jobs. I can't tell you the last time I went DRG to an event, or BLU aside from Voidwatch. Never taken RUN to anything seriously, or PUP. So should I just 5/5 three of those (prolly Stardiver/Requiescat/Resolution) and when I'm needed on RNG, toss Arching Arrow? Or if I'm asked to go on MNK, should I just Asuran Fists and hope I don't skillchain?

However, I do agree with your final point. I'm not so sure on a complete uncapping, but I would like to see the restrictions eased a bit. Even if it's just doubling the amount of WS you can 5/5; 6 would be an effective number.

Camate

06-05-2014, 04:00 AM

Hello, everyone.

Adjustments were previously made so that simply having a merit point weapon skill unlocked would still deal practical damage without having to upgrade it. We’d like players to choose whether they want to master a single weapon skill or use merit points to unlock weapon skills that can be used for multiple jobs. As such we do not have any plans at the moment to increase the cap.

In the upcoming version update, we will be making adjustments to weapon skills as a whole, and I believe this will open up the selection of weapon skills that can be used besides the ones learned with merit points. We’d first like to see game conditions after these adjustments are implemented.

Demonjustin

06-05-2014, 02:39 PM

Adjustments were previously made so that simply having a merit point weapon skill unlocked would still deal practical damage without having to upgrade it. We’d like players to choose whether they want to master a single weapon skill or use merit points to unlock weapon skills that can be used for multiple jobs. As such we do not have any plans at the moment to increase the cap.A noble attempt, but a failed attempt. This is a player base that has strived for the optimum for many, many years now. To give us a system which is based on the idea of compromise and not expecting us to still optimize and go with 5/5 WSs rather than a few 1/5s with a 5/5 or 2 is just not paying attention to how we function. This is the very reason why Merits as a whole have been broken for a while now, we all see a few things that are fantastic and a few that really suck, the ones that suck we simply ignore, the ones that are great we max out. When it comes to Merit WSs almost all are great, and as a result we pick a few jobs to max out and complain we can't get the rest. If that never changes then neither will our complaining.

You can't change how we function, I wish you could as it would solve many community issues too, but you just can't do it. This will remain an issue with players until the game changes to accommodate or is shut down as it's really a matter of how many people who play this game are. We strive for the best, offering us powerful but weaker WSs with 1/5 is akin to offering us NQ gear vs HQ gear, many people will take that HQ even if it costs them an arm and a leg in return.

Alhanelem

06-05-2014, 05:15 PM

A noble attempt, but a failed attempt. This is a player base that has strived for the optimum for many, many years now.This is a defect of the hardcore playerbase (which is mostly all that is left in the game at this point) being perfectionist/elitist rather than a defect of the system, in my opinion. Your typical run of the mill player who doesn't care if he's winning a parsing contest will still get enough damage out of a merit WS with less than 5 points for it to be worth using.

Now I agree with your other statement that you can't really change people. I'm just pointing out that "in theory" it was a reasonable solution to provide the choice between versatility and minimaxed performance on a few jobs that was intended by the merit system at its inception.

many people will take that HQ even if it costs them an arm and a leg in return. and "many people" will also take the cheaper option (the analogy is not so great). Be careful in using weasel words like "many" that cloud perception. Also using the word "we" when you don't necessarily represent everyone here is not a great idea either.

-----

Honestly I'm oging to wager that they plan to bring up existing WS to the power level of most of the merit WS so choosing a WS will be more about the additional effects, skillchain attributes, and other things rather than the raw damage value.

Demonjustin

06-05-2014, 05:39 PM

This is a defect of the hardcore playerbase (which is mostly all that is left in the game at this point) being perfectionist/elitist rather than a defect of the system, in my opinion. Your typical run of the mill player who doesn't care if he's winning a parsing contest will still get enough damage out of a merit WS with less than 5 points for it to be worth using.Sometimes it's not about a parse, but viability and victory. Extra damage in some cases such as Tojil for instance can mean the difference between a win and a loss, kill to slowly and you fail due to stun resistance that only becomes an issue when your damage overall is too slow to kill. Making a weapon skill weaker by taking merits out of it for other WSs which will also be on the weaker end can aid failure in this way. As for viability I'm referring to something along the lines of how Req is hardly ever the best WS for RDM, CDC almost always beats it as a WS and if you have fewer merits in Req you're only going to see Req's gap become larger and larger with fewer places to make use of it.

I don't mean to say that 1/5 WSs don't have a place or that they're not at all worth doing but even some of the on this forum seem to be in the mindset of having only 3 5/5 WSs and simply re-meriting them to another WS if need be. I know many people in game who do this as well. I won't say everyone does but I've met enough players both casual and hardcore who stick to the idea of 5/5 only to say that I honestly believe the idea of leaving it as it is right now is only going to leave us with a flawed system that few are happy with.

While it also may be a defect or flaw with the hardcore players in your opinion I honestly find it more a defect with the game, as many people have pointed out in the past the great advantage to this game so few others have is that all jobs and all possibilities are open to any character. Merits however are the exact opposite of that idea, restricting the freedom of players and instead forcing strict choices upon them and as a result we've narrowed most merits down to right & wrong choices with Merit WSs being the most difficult choice to make and truly only being dependant on the jobs you play or favor most. I honestly think that Job Points are a step in the right direction in this field in a way since they are unlimited unlike merit points, allowing us to cap every category at will provided we are willing to farm the points necessary to do so. They are also taking that sort of path with HP/MP/Merit, merits. We will be able to cap all things within those categories which I personally think is another example of moving in that direction of complete freedom to optimize at will rather than restricting us to making choices that will almost certainly leave some choices unchosen.

Honestly I'm going to wager that they plan to bring up existing WS to the power level of most of the merit WS so choosing a WS will be more about the additional effects, skillchain attributes, and other things rather than the raw damage value.As much as I'd like this to be the case, I doubt it will happen. With how WS Mods work unless they almost completely removed them from making much of a difference I doubt it would even be possible to truly balance their DMG, at best I think we'd see more of what we see now where in some situations one WS wins and in another situations a different one wins with the only real differences between the situations being the mob and your buffs.

Alhanelem

06-05-2014, 10:44 PM

Sometimes it's not about a parse, but viability and victory.And I would argue those WS are still able to produce "viability and victory" with less than 5 points in them. How is this not about a parse, lol? 2150 damage vs 2100 when your auto attack remains the same is very unlikely to alter your chance of winning. I did make up those numbers, but the point i'm trying to convey is that the difference between maxed out and not maxed out is not very big.

While it also may be a defect or flaw with the hardcore players in your opinion I honestly find it more a defect with the game,This is mostly a matter of perspective. You, like other people that tend to frequent a game's forums, are likely a more serious player than the average and demand a higher standard than necessary to achieve your goals (there's nothing wrong with that per se, I'm just making a point). This system does not restrict you from playing any job, literally or effectively. You dont' need 5/5 in every WS to be able to use them and get worthwhile results. There's a difference between that and not being able to play the job-a difference as wide and deep as the grand canyon.

As much as I'd like this to be the case, I doubt it will happen.They said they intend to rebalance older WS, there would be no point in doing so if it didn't make at least one or two other WS per weapon viable for content. If it doesn't, it would be a totally wasted effort, so in this case I'll choose optimistic over cynical.

Camiie

06-06-2014, 11:13 PM

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole.

Yes, I feel quite special when I can't max out that new job I fell in love without nerfing that other one I also love. When I can't bring something to the table I get nothing but praise and appreciation from those around me. It's like that time before I had all my BLM spells, and everyone was just so impressed that I was lacking spells that other BLMs had.

Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

You could say that about everything really, but many of those other things have no limits. So why is it a good thing here but not everywhere? Why am I allowed to obtain and upgrade all the JSE sets for example? Why, if I had the resources, am I allowed to make all the RMEs? Why am I allowed to learn all the spells on my BLM? Why can a BST call any jug pet? Why can your PUP call all the automatons? Wouldn't you rather have specialization and only be able to call one or two auto types? That way yours and someone else's are potentially different.

It's about making your character different from others in small ways, and frankly I think it's even more important consider how easy it is now to get every job maxed. Why does standing out on your favorite job seem like such a terrible thing to you? It doesn't render your other jobs unplayable, especially under the ilvl system where gear > everything else.

First of all my character stands out from others quite a bit because I have no interest in leveling or gearing every job, and my choices are rather eclectic. I'm also an Elvaan female and the only one who runs with my groups these days. Most of all, my play style and personality set me apart from others, for better or worse. I don't need an arbitrary limit to make me unique. I don't feel diminished when other people have the same stuff as me or can do the same things. Conversely I don't feel good when I can't do something they can.

It's really not. Everyone who makes this argument acts as if the system prevents you from playing XYZ jobs when it doesn't at all.

Don't tell me that. Tell the exclusionary party leaders who demand perfection and completeness even where it isn't required.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

You act as though one can't be the best at their preferred jobs while also having all WS options available for others.

I've only bothered to cap 6 jobs. My merits are entirely focused on 2 of them. However, I'm completely still able to use the other 4 jobs in content. So, personally, I don't see the problem. You don't need the club or staff ws to play the jobs that use those weapons, you don't need all your merits in HP to be able to play a tank, you don't need all your attributes in INT to play your BLM.

The whole premise of the merit system was to give your favorite jobs a boost, not to lock you out of playing other jobs (and it doesn't).

But it does! Just because it works for you doesn't mean others aren't suffering ill effects from the limitations. If you don't have all your ducks in a row on a job but 3 other people do then who's going to get chosen? It won't be you unless you have an in with the group leader. The "system" may not limit you, but perception is reality and the prevailing perception is that if you don't have it you are weak compared to someone who does. And that job you decided to focus all your merits in at the expense of all others because you love it so much? Chances are high that it's a job that's considered useless compared to the 5 or 6 that are favored.

Afania

06-07-2014, 12:06 AM

Yes, I feel quite special when I can't max out that new job I fell in love without nerfing that other one I also love. When I can't bring something to the table I get nothing but praise and appreciation from those around me. It's like that time before I had all my BLM spells, and everyone was just so impressed that I was lacking spells that other BLMs had.

If you have other suggestion about how to improve the role playing experience in FFXI, feel free to let the dev know.

Until then the merit point system or something similar is the best this game can get.

You could say that about everything really, but many of those other things have no limits. So why is it a good thing here but not everywhere? Why am I allowed to obtain and upgrade all the JSE sets for example? Why, if I had the resources, am I allowed to make all the RMEs? Why am I allowed to learn all the spells on my BLM? Why can a BST call any jug pet? Why can your PUP call all the automatons? Wouldn't you rather have specialization and only be able to call one or two auto types? That way yours and someone else's are potentially different.

Now you're starting to give bad examples lol.

First of all my character stands out from others quite a bit because I have no interest in leveling or gearing every job, and my choices are rather eclectic. I'm also an Elvaan female and the only one who runs with my groups these days. Most of all, my play style and personality set me apart from others, for better or worse. I don't need an arbitrary limit to make me unique. I don't feel diminished when other people have the same stuff as me or can do the same things. Conversely I don't feel good when I can't do something they can.

I don't believe your "play style" can set you apart, this game doesn't allow players to develop their own play style. This isn't FTG or RTS, this is a RPG and the right way for a RPG game to develop play style is through stat limitation and skill selection.

Also, your personality doesn't set you apart either, because it doesn't affect the game play. When I'm talking about "being unique" it's from gameplay's POV.

Don't tell me that. Tell the exclusionary party leaders who demand perfection and completeness even where it isn't required.

If the limitation of the number of merit WS is affecting the job performance that much, then the right solution is to buff the 2nd best WS choice, not removing the RPG element.

Bow RNG with 1/5 apex is just fine cuz they can use JR, MNK with 1/5 merit is just fine because they can use VS. I've never seen a pt lead complain about VS MNK and JR RNG. The merit WS is situational.

But it does! Just because it works for you doesn't mean others aren't suffering ill effects from the limitations. If you don't have all your ducks in a row on a job but 3 other people do then who's going to get chosen? It won't be you unless you have an in with the group leader. The "system" may not limit you, but perception is reality and the prevailing perception is that if you don't have it you are weak compared to someone who does. And that job you decided to focus all your merits in at the expense of all others because you love it so much? Chances are high that it's a job that's considered useless compared to the 5 or 6 that are favored.

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/Walkthrough/images/screens/char-gen.jpg

This is what makes RPG RPG. When you click "+" on STR and DEX your WIS and INT is forever gimped and vice versa. You simply shouldn't be allowed to be the best at everything because thats how RPG goes for past 30 years. RPG is supposed to be life simulator focus on stats and number. Irl most ppl can't get everything. Someone spent their entire life getting stronger gets higher STR but lower INT WIS, someone spent their entire life studying gets higher INT WIS but lower STR. Because you only have 24 hr a day and you can't get everything, you can only pick one area and focus.

In game you can't really simulate the result of your choice since the time flow is faster, if you don't set limitation everyone can just get everything and they no longer need to make choices. So the only way that can force the player to make choices about life is through + and - on stats. Or else there are no decision to be made and everyone just cap everything.

If you want equal footing with other players, play RTS or FTG. But please don't kill my RPG experience. I want "+" and "-" on stats in this game like in other games.

B.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

Nah, I support your opinion and that makes it two of us :)

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system. They should remove category caps.

No specialization is the antithesis of MMORPG. Job system is just a system, MMORPG is the genre of this game, the fundamental of a game. If the system contradicts the fundamental, fundamental takes the priority.

Camiie

06-07-2014, 12:46 AM

If you have other suggestion about how to improve the role playing experience in FFXI, feel free to let the dev know.

Until then the merit point system or something similar is the best this game can get.

There's nothing anti-RPG about having an open system. Just because it isn't common that doesn't make it wrong.

Now you're starting to give bad examples lol.

How so? You guys want specialization within jobs? You guys want limitations? Well there ya go. Alhanelem himself said that gear is everything these days. What better place to introduce specialization in a game that's heavily driven by gear? Spells are just skills that cost MP. Why not force mages to choose certain spells over others? If limiting weapon skills is good then limiting spells should be as well. Pets define pet jobs do they not? Why not force those jobs to specialize so that they aren't all throwing the same few pets at everything?

I don't believe your "play style" can set you apart, this game doesn't allow players to develop their own play style. This isn't FTG or RTS, this is a RPG and the right way for a RPG game to develop play style is through stat limitation and skill selection.

It can and it does. Just because it isn't a game that relies heavily on manual dexterity that doesn't mean there aren't differences in how people do things.

Also, your personality doesn't set you apart either, because it doesn't affect the game play. When I'm talking about "being unique" it's from gameplay's POV.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

If the limitation of the number of merit WS is affecting the job performance that much, then the right solution is to buff the 2nd best WS choice, not removing the RPG element.

I have no problem with buffing the 2nd best WS, but what if I'm trying to role play a Mary Sue shonen anime type character who can perform any technique after seeing it done once. You're limiting the RPG element for me here.

Bow RNG with 1/5 apex is just fine cuz they can use JR, MNK with 1/5 merit is just fine because they can use VS. I've never seen a pt lead complain about VS MNK and JR RNG. The merit WS is situational.

Yeah you Victory Smite the raptor in Morimar or the pugil in Foret and see if someone doesn't complain.

This is what makes RPG RPG. When you click "+" on STR and DEX your WIS and INT is forever gimped and vice versa. You simply shouldn't be allowed to be the best at everything because thats how RPG goes for past 30 years. RPG is supposed to be life simulator focus on stats and number. Irl most ppl can't get everything. Someone spent their entire life getting stronger gets higher STR but lower INT WIS, someone spent their entire life studying gets higher INT WIS but lower STR. Because you only have 24 hr a day and you can't get everything, you can only pick one area and focus.

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

In game you can't really simulate the result of your choice since the time flow is faster, if you don't set limitation everyone can just get everything and they no longer need to make choices. So the only way that can force the player to make choices about life is through + and - on stats. Or else there are no decision to be made and everyone just cap everything.

If you want equal footing with other players, play RTS or FTG. But please don't kill my RPG experience. I want "+" and "-" on stats in this game like in other games.

So it's perfectly fine for YOU to kill MY experience, but yours must never be impacted in any way. Well aren't you the tolerant sort?

Afania

06-07-2014, 01:21 AM

How so? You guys want specialization within jobs? You guys want limitations? Well there ya go. Alhanelem himself said that gear is everything these days. What better place to introduce specialization in a game that's heavily driven by gear? Spells are just skills that cost MP. Why not force mages to choose certain spells over others? If limiting weapon skills is good then limiting spells should be as well. Pets define pet jobs do they not? Why not force those jobs to specialize so that they aren't all throwing the same few pets at everything?

Because the game content is already designed and balanced based on the fact that everyone can get all spells. Obviously it's silly to ask the dev to remove the access to certain spells/JA. That'd make the content a lot harder than it is now. Further more there are too many junk spells that there isn't much choice to make anyways.

It IS possible to create a game that forces the mages to choose certain spell over others, just not in this game. But in many other RPG I've played you do have to choose. Limiting spells isn't "wrong" design, just wouldn't work in this game.

It can and it does. Just because it isn't a game that relies heavily on manual dexterity that doesn't mean there aren't differences in how people do things.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

Well, if you insist to play WHMinja, GS PLD or bow SAM then maybe that's different playstyle! But that's not enough, IMO. Until you can play WHMinja, GS PLD or bow SAM full time and no one in the pt give you shit storm about it, there still more room for creative freedom.

You are right, if you seriously go digging about it you CAN find a situation that allows different play style, but only in extremely niche situation and it's limited to certain jobs.

Limitation through merit applies to all jobs and it's effective all the time, it's a more powerful way to force the player to make choices.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

But what you say doesn't affect the actual gameplay. You can't change the story nor attribute by speaking in /p /l or /tell, unlike other RPG.

I have no problem with buffing the 2nd best WS, but what if I'm trying to role play a Mary Sue shonen anime type character who can perform any technique after seeing it done once. You're limiting the RPG element for me here.

If a character that's capable of doing any technique after seeing it done once, he/she should have a weakness: He/she will be suck at the technique.

So yeah, 1/5 it is :)

RPG element isn't "Hey, I wanna role play a super saiyen, please give me all stat 999 thank you". If you think you can be what you want to be in a RPG game, just because it's RPG, then you don't really know the meaning behind it.

Yeah you Victory Smite the raptor in Morimar or the pugil in Foret and see if someone doesn't complain.

You can VS on raptor just fine. Heck I even dia it.

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

And the designer wants the game to have limitation, why are you fighting against it?

So it's perfectly fine for YOU to kill MY experience, but yours must never be impacted in any way. Well aren't you the tolerant sort?

This game's been like that for years though, if it's not tolerable you'd leave already. But you didn't, so you can tolerate it :)

Alhanelem

06-07-2014, 01:31 AM

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.Still waiting for the game to "shatter the mold."

There are game design reasons when you don't just let everyone get all of everything. Making decisions about your character (or party in a single player game) is supposed to be one of the elements of challenge, fun, and creativity in an RPG. Over the years though, decisions have been gradually getting stripped from just about every MMO in existence. You see a lot more people creating nonsensical names for their avatars because they can just pay to change them later. You see people making hasty decisions about their appearance because they can pay to change it later. People feel compelled to get every item for every job because the game lets them even though they don't have to. Letting people have everything creates as many problems as it solves. In most single player RPGs you have to make a decision at every turn, a decision that affects the outcome of a battle, a decision that affects the story, and a decision that irrevocably changes your characters. But put those things in an online RPG and everyone will beg for it to be removed. Why is this? can people just not handle decision making?

bla bla bla bla bla. You don't need to be the best at all 22 jobs, but that also doesn't mean you can't actually use all 22 of them. Why not enjoy choosing a path for your character instead of resenting the fact that a decision needs to be made?

Hell, I chose to be a Galka. Then I chose to be a summoner. Back when the game was new, you can predict the crap I got for doing that. Now, nobody cares. I can do my job just as well as any other SMN, and I can assure you my merits are probably not the same as yours. I chose to "waste" my merits on certain WS. Suprise! I can still play as my SCH or DNC or DRK if I really want to.

Ramzi

06-07-2014, 05:11 AM

Dumb question, but how is a party leader going to know if you are lying if you say "yes, I have 5/5 Shijin Spiral" but in reality you only have 3/5... or even 1/5. The max multiplier is 85% and min is 73%. With enemy defenses and randomness thrown in, I wouldn't think it would be THAT noticeable. Especially considering they don't know how much dex you have at any given time. I guess my point is, if you are worried about elitists not inviting you for not having maxed merit WS just lie about it. No party leader should be that picky anyway, and it will not make the difference between winning and losing Tojil. If it does, you are deficient in other areas.

Malithar

06-07-2014, 07:34 AM

Because the game content is already designed and balanced based on the fact that everyone can get all spells. Obviously it's silly to ask the dev to remove the access to certain spells/JA. That'd make the content a lot harder than it is now. Further more there are too many junk spells that there isn't much choice to make anyways.

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

Afania

06-07-2014, 08:04 AM

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

I do agree that the cap between merit WS and 2nd best WS for some jobs needs to be fixed, but they should have fix that first. Those who argued that "my job isn't playable without merit WS" should look at bow RNG. I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

Malithar

06-07-2014, 06:24 PM

I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.
I wouldn't argue if 1/5 and 5/5 were brought even closer together, but personally, I'd question the point of 5/5 if it was anything less than 10% difference. I'd prolly just go 1/5 wild and get everything, and choose a few to 2-3/5.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"
As above, I'd question the point of going 5/5 then. If they did solve it with additional effects, it would need to be something that was balanced, but enticing.

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I don't really care, as my enjoyment in this game comes from about 4 jobs. But I know plenty who would prefer to be able to play their side jobs to the fullest of their ability, in a sense, making them no longer side jobs, but best geared/merited jobs. Instead, they're relegated to the closet since they're not able to. There's no real comparison I can make to other games, simply because their answer to such a thing is "reroll!"

Byrth

06-07-2014, 08:42 PM

Malithar just laid out Argument B2 from this thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=325745&viewfull=1#post325745).

Afania

06-07-2014, 10:11 PM

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I can also argue that when you picked DD path for paladin in other MMORPG your tanking ability is forever gimped, thus it's affected in a negative way. But you probably won't accept it because you are arguing against merit system from game mechanic's POV, but I'm defending the merit system from role playing's POV.

I think we also have different POV toward the job change system. You seem to view job change system similar to what they do in FFXIV, job change is just, job change, like creating a new character in other MMO but with exactly same quest/PVP progression.

I always feel job change in FFXI is different though, it's related to part of the character and not just "another class I can play when I feel like I need it/want to". Like how a scientist that's good at math but has terrible artistic skill irl, he can't be good at everything. Merit point system simply just reflect that. Your argument is certainly legit, that irl the scientist that's bad at math would probably never want to/need to be an artist unlike FFXI you'd often need to job change. But I also have to point out no content require you to have perfect merit for that job to win. I agree that in the case of merit point WS it's a bit too extreme since certain jobs are not playable without the WS, but things like HP/MP and stats merit it doesn't really affect your win rate in content. If you want to argue against merit point system, at least consider that fact.

Nappy

06-10-2014, 08:07 AM

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?

Alhanelem

06-10-2014, 04:36 PM

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?
Well, it does depend on the WS and what its used against. The real question is: is the weapon skill ever the best choice without the upgrades? I'd say most of the time, it's still good enough to be king (at least until the WS revamps depending on what they do).

I personally do agree with your message, that the WS are plenty functional without the upgrades and that the upgrades aren't likely to determine the outcome of a fight. But some people, we'll call them "perfectionists," are not satisfied until they've milked every single potential point of damage possible, whether it's necesary or not. There's nothing wrong with that, really, just pointing out that the revisions they made likely satisfied some people but not others.

Camiie

06-10-2014, 05:53 PM

Still waiting for the game to "shatter the mold."

I hear there's this one MMO from a bit over a decade ago that let's you level all classes on a single character. It was a pretty groundbreaking concept at the time.

There are game design reasons when you don't just let everyone get all of everything. Making decisions about your character (or party in a single player game) is supposed to be one of the elements of challenge, fun, and creativity in an RPG. Over the years though, decisions have been gradually getting stripped from just about every MMO in existence. You see a lot more people creating nonsensical names for their avatars because they can just pay to change them later. You see people making hasty decisions about their appearance because they can pay to change it later. People feel compelled to get every item for every job because the game lets them even though they don't have to. Letting people have everything creates as many problems as it solves. In most single player RPGs you have to make a decision at every turn, a decision that affects the outcome of a battle, a decision that affects the story, and a decision that irrevocably changes your characters. But put those things in an online RPG and everyone will beg for it to be removed. Why is this? can people just not handle decision making?

bla bla bla bla bla. You don't need to be the best at all 22 jobs, but that also doesn't mean you can't actually use all 22 of them. Why not enjoy choosing a path for your character instead of resenting the fact that a decision needs to be made?

Hell, I chose to be a Galka. Then I chose to be a summoner. Back when the game was new, you can predict the crap I got for doing that. Now, nobody cares. I can do my job just as well as any other SMN, and I can assure you my merits are probably not the same as yours. I chose to "waste" my merits on certain WS. Suprise! I can still play as my SCH or DNC or DRK if I really want to.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

detlef

06-10-2014, 07:38 PM

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

Malithar

06-10-2014, 08:50 PM

Nappy

06-11-2014, 02:29 AM

Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

First off i don't see anyone saying you cant create another char and merit weapon skills on them. You do have the time don't you?

"Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique" because maxing them all is not following the pack eh?

TBH though i was uptight about the merit ws thing when it first came out. Now days the diff is so unnoticeable that i really don't care.

Alhanelem

06-11-2014, 09:50 AM

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisionsIt's not really arbitrary, it makes plenty of sense. Nuclear scientests typically aren't the best football players, while garbage collectors typically aren't the best CEOs. You can't be the best at everything in real life, therefore it is not such a wild stretch, even in a fantasy game. FFXI is already very generous as far as how good it lets you be at everything. None of the weaponskill merits render a job unplayable in lacking one the job can use. The main stat merits don't add enough to dramatically change anything. The HP/MP merits don't dramatically change anything. (Most) job specific merits are not really essential to the job. Merits are additions, bonuses. Having to choose them does not mean you won't be able to play this job or that job. Especially since you can't see other people's merits, you're not going to get kicked out of a party if you, for instance, spent most of your attribute points on STR then go play black mage. Is it minmax optimal? No. Can you still clear content with the job? Yes.

Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.If that's what actually happened, your post would have some merit. But as it stands, not everybody merits the same things for their job, not everyone merits the same weapon skills, not everyone allocates their HP/MP the same, etc. So yes, you are more unique as a result of the current design of the merit system than you would be if it was changed the way everyone here is begging for it to be.

detlef

06-11-2014, 11:26 AM

It's not really arbitrary, it makes plenty of sense. Nuclear scientests typically aren't the best football players, while garbage collectors typically aren't the best CEOs. You can't be the best at everything in real life, therefore it is not such a wild stretch, even in a fantasy game.You know why scientists and football players do not have many shared abilities? It's a combination of natural, dog-given talent and amount of time you can devote to become more skilled and knowledgeable in your craft. That doesn't really apply to FFXI because it only requires a baseline amount of actual player skill and you are essentially free to play the game as much as you want. In terms of time spent, you can become an expert PLD in a tiny fraction of the amount of time it would take to become an expert scientist. Keep in mind that nothing limits you from being a master PLD AND a master fisherman (and a master leathercrafter on top of that).

Slightly more than 1 game day is elapsing every real-life hour. If you subscribe to the 10,000 hours of practice rule, you should be able to completely master something in 16 days of game play.

Maybe we shouldn't be using real life analogies.

FFXI is already very generous as far as how good it lets you be at everything. None of the weaponskill merits render a job unplayable in lacking one the job can use. The main stat merits don't add enough to dramatically change anything. The HP/MP merits don't dramatically change anything. (Most) job specific merits are not really essential to the job. Merits are additions, bonuses. Having to choose them does not mean you won't be able to play this job or that job. Especially since you can't see other people's merits, you're not going to get kicked out of a party if you, for instance, spent most of your attribute points on STR then go play black mage. Is it minmax optimal? No. Can you still clear content with the job? Yes.Saying you don't need X in order to clear content is a pretty lazy argument that can be applied to anything. I suppose we can't complain about job points either. They're just a bonus after all.

If that's what actually happened, your post would have some merit. But as it stands, not everybody merits the same things for their job, not everyone merits the same weapon skills, not everyone allocates their HP/MP the same, etc. So yes, you are more unique as a result of the current design of the merit system than you would be if it was changed the way everyone here is begging for it to be.Most people do merit the same things. If you play MNK you need Shijin. If you play DRK you need Resolution. If you play BRD you need to need to max out Nitro. If you play RNG you're going to merit Snapshot and Recycle.

Players have a choice only when:
1. All of the options suck and it doesn't matter what you pick (NIN merits)
2. All (or most) of the options are useful (COR merits)
3. Your choice is actually about what job you are willing to gimp

In most cases, you don't have a choice.

Aside from that, does anybody really care about uniqueness? In appearance and gear sure, but does anybody care about being one of the only players to have Aggressive Aim merits?

FrankReynolds

06-11-2014, 12:52 PM

Yay, let's keep limits on merits so that way it's even harder to find people to do things with. Gear checks on content aren't enough. We need more ways to make forming groups suck arse in this game. Shouting for just the right job with just the right merits is the best part of the game. Sure I can't find the right damage dealer or healer to do the thing I want to do right now, but at least that one guy who's not logged in right now got to be original. I'm having fun just knowing that that guy feels special. :)

Alhanelem

06-11-2014, 01:59 PM

You know why scientists and football players do not have many shared abilities? It's a combination of natural, dog-given talent and amount of time you can devote to become more skilled and knowledgeable in your craft.Which was my point. Your statement about the actual amount of skill required to play the game is irrelevant to the topic. Also, it isn't just developing skill and knowledge in a craft- There is also the physical capability factor.

Saying you don't need X in order to clear content is a pretty lazy argument that can be applied to anything. I suppose we can't complain about job points either. They're just a bonus after all.It's not "lazy." It's a reasonable argument. Declaring an argument "lazy" doesn't invalidate it. Your personal standard may be that everyone has to be as perfect as possible, but not everyone has that standard, and those people will still be able to play content in the game just fine, which disproves the argument that XYZ merits are a necessity for ABC job. Man, what the hell did we do before the merit WS were introduced! The game was impossible before that!

And job points are a different system from merit points:

-Merit points are easy to obtain but have category limits that require decisions to be made about where you want to go with them. You decide you don't like what you chose, it's not unfeasible to unmerit something and remerit something else. Merits are so easy now that it's gotten to a point where they started using them as a currency....
-Job points are much harder to obtain and are effectively limited by the comparative difficulty of obtaining them. Also, they were designed from the beginning to cater to the job system and fact that many people are leveling every job. You can get job points for every job, but it will take you an eternity or three.

Players have a choice only when:
1. All of the options suck and it doesn't matter what you pick (NIN merits)
2. All (or most) of the options are useful (COR merits)
3. Your choice is actually about what job you are willing to gimpIn other words, you always have a choice.

It is pretty difficult to make any choices that render a job entirely unusable in content. In fact, I'd argue that's not possible. I don't believe any merit category that goes cross job renders any job unplayable; nor does your choices within any job category have any potential to render that job unplayable.

And that's what matters. Your choices do not prevent you from using any job in the game. Therefore, it is customization without cripplization.

Yay, let's keep limits on merits so that way it's even harder to find people to do things with.Merit limits do not make it harder to find people to do things with. The choice to level (and gear up) or not level a job alone does that. You overstate the impact of the system immensely. I have not merited a WS for my DRK. I guarantee you if I joined a party as DRK, I'd still be able to do my job and unless I screwed something up, I wouldn't be getting kicked (same as anybody else).

YOU. DO. NOT. NEED. EVERY. MERIT. ON. EVERY. JOB. to be able to use that job in content. It is completely possible and doable. The only problem here is the demand of the people in this thread to be PERFECT at everything.

Limits are part of good game design. Or maybe we should just forget limits, start everyone with all 99 jobs and give them full sets of i119 gear, that way everyone can play all content without any effort! That EXP getting progress limits my gameplay way too much! oh, don't forget gil, that limits my gameplay too, lets get rid of that.

...... Anyway, this thread was about the WS limits specifically. My argument is that the absense of any of these weaponskills on any job doesn't make you suddenly unable to play that job. The job doesn't lock out, you don't suddenly do zero damage, it's still fully playable in every way. As long as that holds true, there is no significant problem with the merit system. Being a little better / worse at an individual job != not being able to play it if it's needed and nobody else can do it.

Malithar

06-11-2014, 03:23 PM

In other words, you always have a choice.
Between optimization or not optimizing. What's the logical choice?

And that's what matters. Your choices do not prevent you from using any job in the game. Therefore, it is customization without cripplization.

Merit limits do not make it harder to find people to do things with. The choice to level (and gear up) or not level a job alone does that. You overstate the impact of the system immensely. I have not merited a WS for my DRK. I guarantee you if I joined a party as DRK, I'd still be able to do my job and unless I screwed something up, I wouldn't be getting kicked (same as anybody else).

Torclever is terrible, and GSD has nothing else available, and Scythe is pretty much a utility weapon at this point. As your job is a DD, how do you expect to perform your job as a DD to the fullest of your ability without having a solid DD WS? Is that just it, you don't expect to perform to the fullest of your ability, and you settle for mediocrity? Not trying to be insulting, but that's a really terrible example to give for the benefit of your argument.

Furthermore, I'd argue it actually is quite a crippling system. Lets take a hypothetical mage only character that decides to level a DD job, lets say Rng. Being mage only, they've stuck their merits into Mnd, Int, Club, Staff, defensive skills, and idk, sword or something for a Rdm, as well as 5/5ing the corresponding WSs. Cool beans. Now lets bring that Rng to a VD fight. They're missing 12 Str/Agi merits, 8 weapon merits, and a stronger WS (barring relic, ignore enmity for this example.) That may not sound like much, but that's giving them a lower fStr, lower accuracy, less WS damage, and less RAtt. Without removing merits from their mage jobs, they're stuck without these benefits. I'm not going to say this Rng is now crippled and incapable of doing said content. But should they really be hindered for their choices in merits? Is that really something you believe is fair?

Limits are part of good game design.

In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Byrth

06-11-2014, 08:00 PM

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

Afania

06-11-2014, 09:39 PM

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

Alhanelem's argument isn't "unsupported arguement", it's just based on different design fundamental as yours. The point of defending for merit point system is to mimic how real life works, which is "a master scientist can't be a master baseball player". Without merit point system, current FFXI game system fail to simulate such facet of real life because it's much easier to obtain very good gear and skill to be good at multiple jobs, as long as you have time to invest.

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. :) Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

Torclever is terrible, and GSD has nothing else available, and Scythe is pretty much a utility weapon at this point. As your job is a DD, how do you expect to perform your job as a DD to the fullest of your ability without having a solid DD WS? Is that just it, you don't expect to perform to the fullest of your ability, and you settle for mediocrity? Not trying to be insulting, but that's a really terrible example to give for the benefit of your argument.

Since "role playing element" should come first, then the right way to solve this issue is to buff existing/2nd best WS so they can catch up, and keep the role playing element in this game. Now you're saying merit point system/role playing element shouldn't exist because SE didn't do a good job balancing it, but it should be other way around.

Furthermore, I'd argue it actually is quite a crippling system. Lets take a hypothetical mage only character that decides to level a DD job, lets say Rng. Being mage only, they've stuck their merits into Mnd, Int, Club, Staff, defensive skills, and idk, sword or something for a Rdm, as well as 5/5ing the corresponding WSs. Cool beans. Now lets bring that Rng to a VD fight. They're missing 12 Str/Agi merits, 8 weapon merits, and a stronger WS (barring relic, ignore enmity for this example.) That may not sound like much, but that's giving them a lower fStr, lower accuracy, less WS damage, and less RAtt. Without removing merits from their mage jobs, they're stuck without these benefits. I'm not going to say this Rng is now crippled and incapable of doing said content. But should they really be hindered for their choices in merits? Is that really something you believe is fair?

This is actually not a very convincing example for ppl defending for merit point system :p For ppl like me and Alhanelem who value role playing element more than anything else, the above example is exactly what we wanted: a player who choose to be a pro mage with high MND/INT/club will be bad at archery.

This isn't a matter of "fair", it's not like this game is PVP game and if you deal less dmg than another RNG you get low ranking. This is life, a mage that's smart and spend entire life studying and get smarter (higher INT)shouldn't be strong enough to deal good dmg with a bow(lower STR). If you want the game to be perfectly "fair", then there's no point to play a RPG at all. Games like FTG or RTS are perfectly "fair" that character performance is separate by skill, not stat. Games like RPG should let players live another life in a game though.

On the other hand, there's almost 0 reason to be perfectly "fair" in FFXI. A RNG without 12 STR/AGI merit and do less dmg, won't be in that much of a disadvantage. He can still complete the content. There's no PVP/recommendation/ranking system in FFXI either. He may have harder time to complete the content that needs RNG but that's only because current content design doesn't benefit mage main(nukers such as BLM SCH isn't main DD) so he can't get advantage as a mage main, not because there's a flaw in merit point system.

Anyways, it seems that ppl who doesn't want merit point system can't grasp the idea of role playing element in a MMORPG, so there's no point to argue about this subject anymore IMO. You can argue that role playing doesn't work in MMO because of optimization mentality, this is actually a whole other subject.....even games with 1 single class has balance issue with talent tree, all the time. There's always "most efficient/popular choice" in any RPG, even if the choice is there. However, last time when I play a game that removed choice making completely(FFXIV, I'm looking at you) I have 0 fun in it even if it's completely "fair" when it comes to class performance. I'd rather play a game with merit point system/talent tree and not perfectly balanced, than another game that removes such aspect completely. You can't ask the dev to erase the role playing element from a MMORPG just because merit point is hard to balance.

Alhanelem

06-12-2014, 02:54 AM

Between optimization or not optimizing. What's the logical choice?Your choice is between optimizing one job and optimizing another. But if you really want to not optimize anything, that's an option too, I suppose.

Also, some of us are not as crazy hardcore as you are and are not super concerned with putting out the absolute greatest numbers and one-upping the rest of the party, as long as they're able to win the content. Some play play a bit more relaxed (But that also doesn't mean they aren't capable). However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

---

I'm still not convinced that there is such a huge gap between the merit WS and the next best possible option (Which, even if there is, the whole system is going to be undergoing revisions soon, so any argument we're having about it could be moot- Ignoring people's cynicism about how SE will change the older WS). I'm also not convinced that the difference between a 1/5 and 5/5 WS is significant enough to majorly alter your DPS over a fight or affect your ability to play content. Odds are, if you have the WS at all, nobody's going to be paying attention to exactly how much damage you do with it- so unless you're playing with the most elite of elitists, nobody's going to notice you haven't fully upgraded it.

As I've said before, I wouldn't mind if they increased the WS limit as I think it's a bit too restrictive atm (and I'm sure everyone would love that). I only don't feel that it should be uncapped entirely.

In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree. Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

Also, every other game pretty much lets you play every class. FFXI just makes it much more convenient to do so by allowing you to do it with a single identity. Should those games have all their customization options removed, since being able to play all classes apparently means you have to be allowed to be the best at everything?

I would honestly be more bothered if the decisions you have to make couldn't be undone. But they can be. And while its a bit of a hassle, it is not in any way difficult to remove your merits from something and then upgrade something else- something I've done on a few occasions after regretting my choices.

Personally, I like making choices about my character. But it doesn't seem like anyone else does. I don't feel my ability to be the best PUP should be limited to gear obtainment (especially since everyone who wants to play a job will probably get the best or near the best gear for it eventually). If that's my favorite job, I should be able to customize my character to favor that job. I also play other jobs when necesary, and I can still play those jobs. I'm just better at this job because it's my favorite. (In fact, in most content I end up using something else. I use my SCH, DNC, SMN, DRK and GEO all the time even though my stat merits are for STR and my Others merits favor melee combat. Have I been prevented from using those jobs by my merit choices? Absolutely not. The merit system has successfully enhanced my favorite job, whilst not preventing me from using others when necessary.)

Byrth

06-12-2014, 11:22 AM

Alhanelem

06-12-2014, 05:01 PM

By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience. There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

A more reasonable thing to measure is if there is a meaningful amount of variation in merit point combinations in use. The problem here is the only data we are given by SE lumps everything together. You can only see the total amount of people with one or more levels of each merit. You can't see all the individual combinations in use. Attribute category for example isnt a great measurement because there are more melee-based (STR) jobs than ranged jobs (DEX, INT) or support/specialist jobs (MND/AGI/CHR). So if everyone set their attribtue merits for the one and only job they play most, I would expect to see more STR merits than other merits. But this doesn't mean everybody plays STR based jobs nor does it mean nobody uses other combinations. (e.g. if your true love is mages and you don't use melee DDs or tanks much, you're not going to merit STR)

Malithar

06-12-2014, 05:09 PM

However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron. There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability." I don't need your pity, and I'd imagine most other's that strive to at least hit what they feel is a good level of play for a quality player don't need it either.

If you're missing an HQ piece or two or 4 and missing -4 stats, I don't care, and I don't care that I'm missing those. Are you using a WS that's doing less than 70% of what another WS you could unlock as 1/5 could do as a Drk? /kicked Are you a DD that's more apt at pushing air around with your weapon than hitting a mob? /kicked

There's a certain degree of gear/skill that most put into and bring with a given job that they play. Ever see a Whm that can keep everyone topped off just fine, knows how to manage AF3+2 legs correctly and very rarely over cures? How about when they keep Dia II up full time, boost spells up full time, and properly manage a Haste cycle? -Na's before people even ask? That's a good player. Now that's Whm, their degree of skill comes more from management of resources, IE, MP, spells, gear.

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

I'm viewing Afania's argument better than your's simply because at least his has a point, as silly as it is. Your's is simply "they're choices, bonuses, and you're capable of doing anything and everything without them," which isn't incorrect per-se, but if that's the honest case, why divide the playerbase on their purpose and include them anyways?

Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.
That's seriously your retort to an MMO with a job selection system as varied as XI's? Lemme rephrase then. In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree, unless you're too lazy to level more useful/fun jobs, cause you're obviously in tune with the game's variable job system. Did I hit the mark that time?

Alhanelem

06-12-2014, 05:18 PM

That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron.How is that an insult to you? and what business is it of yours if i changed my mind about responding to a rude post? (Which, by the way, was the right thing to do)

There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability."Actually, there isn't much of a difference: you're demanding maximum ability on every single job (the very definition of what you said). You have zero willingness to compromise, you're not willing to sacrifice a single point of damage on one job to gain one on another, even though it will have virtually zero impact on each job's playability. In other words, you want all of us and everybody to be exactly the same. I would prefer it if every player had their own chosen strengths and weaknesses, it's what makes us unique and it's also what lets us shine at what we really want to do. I don't know anyone who plays all 22 jobs equally and doesn't have a favorite they'd prefer to play more often than the others.

Why do you NEED to "play each and every job to the same ability? Why does it matter that XYZ job you're not currently playing and don't use much isn't at the same exact level of performance (not that the game is balanced that well in the first place)

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs)You're very likely missing out on little else other than a couple main stat points and a small percentage on your WS modifier. Not a major impact by any stretch of the imagination as long as you're gearing your jobs properly (which you covered in talking about sets).

FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, people who gear their jobs up well enough for the content they are playing will, skill willing, perform close enough to other people who play the same job that it doesn't significantly matter who does it. Merits allow customization and do not deny you the ability to play a job to a level where nobody would be able to tell that you didn't merit for it.

I'm not sure why you think I don't have a point, as I've made several. My point is I like and want the customization that the merit system offers. I WANT to be better at some jobs and worse in others. I want my merit build to reflect my individuality and my favorite aspects of the job system. I could really care less if my weapon skill on DRK does 100 less damage than yours- If I need to use the job, it will work well enough to get the job done. I would prefer this varied environment to a sterile one where everyone is exactly the same.

Unfortunately, this is two circles of thought that pretty much can't coexist. The desire to customize and play to one's strengths vs the desire to be the best at everything. We can fight over it til the cows come home, you're not changing your mind nor will I change mine. I doubt we'll come to any sort of understanding here, so I'll leave it here, while I go play my job I didn't merit specifically for in Delve and perform just fine.

Byrth

06-12-2014, 06:27 PM

There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=325745&viewfull=1#post325745)the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.

Afania

06-12-2014, 09:29 PM

Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting.

I don't agree, and this is just your personal opinion, that you wanted to force your own ideal job system on to FFXI's. I think FFXI with merit point system and +/- on the stats works perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about design philosophy and removing "unnecessary" portion of the game, I can argue that dev should remove lv1~lv99 first and let everyone jump straight to endgame.

It works, and it'd work better than current FFXI. But the role playing element would be gone and make the game less interesting. Merit point system is the same.

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

All the content are still doable without having capped merit though, it didn't "discourage" the player to play certain job just because your stat is 12 lower than another player. The gap between merit point WS and the 2nd best option is a bigger issue, and that needs to be fixed. But not through removing merit point system.

This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

Huh, if I'm lving a mage only character or a mage mule, I probably won't merit STR, ever.

Xantavia

06-13-2014, 07:21 AM

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.
What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.

Demonjustin

06-13-2014, 08:16 AM

What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.That doesn't change much most of the time. I prefer RDM in any situation but just because my RDM is fully merited and my character is built around it doesn't change the fact people want WHM instead sometimes and unless I'm willing to go WHM I just won't be taken at all. The same can be said for anyone who has a prefered job, sure, you might prefer SAM, but if we don't need a SAM and you're not up to par on THF compared to what I'm wanting then I just won't take you at all and the very fact you merited SAM rather than THF becomes nothing more than a hinderance.

Alhanelem

06-13-2014, 02:53 PM

1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log inDubious. It doesn't give me more reasons to log in. Even if I can max out more WS, that's not going to impact my current login rate. If it doesn't give me more reasons, it stands to reason that at least some other people aren't given more reasons. If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already.

2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's designOpinion, not a fact. With 22 job options, a system that provides specialization and thereby lets you stand out on a favorite makes sense to me.

None of your points are "logical outgrowths." Two are pretty much wrong and one is a subjective opinion. Points 1 and 2 do indeed make assumptions about the average player's experience.

You're getting doused with likes in spite of this fact, so I pretty much can't win. I said coming in here I knew my opinion wasn't popular. But just because people like your post, doesn't mean you're right. Fortunately for us, post like contests don't dictate SE policy (most of the time).

(also, I'd like to see some math expert person come in here and tell us if the recently posted WS adjustements decrease the dominance of any of the popular merit WS).

PlumbGame

06-13-2014, 05:24 PM

Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=325745&viewfull=1#post325745)the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.

The logic behind this is absolutely flawed. You are trying come up with momentary answer to bigger issues (basically, you allow people to put points into all merits till...... there is no more merits to put points into putting us back into the same boat we are in now, lets ignore the fact you have no credible source at all that it would make people log in more rather than exping vs doing their normal routine). You also argue your ideas under the opinion that SE doesn't want people to somewhat specialize what they do, for example, lets use a relic wep for the sake of the argument (this is also assuming you get a relic for the job you like to play). For the most part, they are better than the i119 weps you can get (excluding m/e), but the 119 weps are still there to allow you to gear other jobs that can successfully do current content without needing a relic (the cookie cutter builds people do requiring relics is irrelevant since the content can be done without). Basically what I'm getting at is the current way merits are in the game, besides job specific merits (which you can put points into them for every job), none of them make or break you, and to assume otherwise would probably suggest you have a much bigger issue than you couldn't put x amount of points into x weapon skill or x amount of points into x magic skill.

I would also like to point out that 212 likes (time of viewing your post) is no where near some kind of majority view of the player base of this game. Do I think most people that would read to allow us to obtain more merits would agree? Hell yeah, I even absolutely agree with the idea. But don't argue flawed logic to support your point and that you are right because all the other ignorant people who agree with you like your post.

Malithar

06-13-2014, 06:53 PM

The logic behind this is absolutely flawed. You are trying come up with momentary answer to bigger issues (basically, you allow people to put points into all merits till...... there is no more merits to put points into putting us back into the same boat we are in now, lets ignore the fact you have no credible source at all that it would make people log in more rather than exping vs doing their normal routine(...) I even absolutely agree with the idea. But don't argue flawed logic to support your point and that you are right because all the other ignorant people who agree with you like your post.

I suppose the idea of having more productive things to do to build your character in an MMO is a radical new idea that needs to be studied before such an assumption can be made. "Flawed logic" is a hell of a leap, IMO.

Saturday night free time w/ change: Hmm, got 3 hours to burn, what to do, what to do...Oh, I could merit some other stats now that SE uncapped them!

Saturday night free time w/o change: Hmm, got 3 hours to burn, what to do, what to do... er, I'm capped out on Delve gear, I've got more gil than I know what to do with from farming it for months, capped on +1 Skirmish, LS doesn't have any plans...Oh, Imma go see that new X-Men movie!

Is having something to do in an MMO really that much of a logic leap to call it a reason to log in?

Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.
It may not outright prevent it, but tell me, do you find yourself itching to do lackluster events with rewards that you have no interest in or no longer need, simply for the "fun" of it? Capped KIs, merits, and merit points are a very real thing, and when you hit that point, there is no incentive to go and exp, as it goes straight to the void, rather than into a useful point tally. I'd say calling it dubious is pretty far off the mark, considering that's the main driving force behind VW/exping in general.

PlumbGame

06-13-2014, 07:12 PM

I suppose the idea of having more productive things to do to build your character in an MMO is a radical new idea that needs to be studied before such an assumption can be made. "Flawed logic" is a hell of a leap, IMO.

Yea, you are right, oh wait, why are we complaining in the first place. I can farm or do the same RoE over and and over that we have, could keep going, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Malithar

06-13-2014, 07:20 PM

I can farm or do the same RoE over and and over that we have, could keep going, but I'm sure you get the idea.

You're 100% right, until, as you pointed out in your previous post, there's no longer a reason to do it. Hence why this is something more to do.

PlumbGame

06-13-2014, 07:28 PM

You're 100% right, until, as you pointed out in your previous post, there's no longer a reason to do it. Hence why this is something more to do.

Hence the speculation that SE want's you to possible excel at some jobs, I wish I pointed that out in my post, oh wait.

Also, there is job points, I'm willing to bet no one has all job points for every job, to suggest that there is "nothing for the player base to do, so we should be able to have more merits" is absurd. More options are great, hence my agreement (if you read my entire post which you obviously didn't), but like I said, the flawed logic behind his points is flawed.

Camiie

06-13-2014, 09:16 PM

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

This isn't even a logical discussion. The whole thing on both sides is based on feelings and preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that you seem to think that an RPG can only be an RPG if it's based on a plus/minus system. That somehow if SE allows a player to unlock all weapon skills on a single character that FFXI is no longer an RPG.

FFXI doesn't even have a plus/minus system in the first place as you've defined it. It has limits, but choosing to "plus" one thing doesn't cause another thing to "minus." My INT doesn't go down when I merit STR. My WAR doesn't delevel when I level my BLM. My ice potency doesn't decrease when I merit earth. So, your whole plus/minus argument is moot anyway. FFXI is already not an RPG by your rather strict definition.

This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

It's a fantasy game. Asking for it to mimic real life in such a way is absurd. In a game where someone can simply read a scroll and instantly learn how to blow things up with their mind or talk to a flying plushie and adopt a completely new skill set, I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine that exceptional people (like our characters) can learn anything they damn well please to learn by putting forth the effort (or reading a scroll, or watching a monster do it, or bashing things with a weapon enough times...).

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. :) Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

Again you have this very narrow view about what an RPG is. An RPG can still be an RPG with total freedom. As long as you're playing a role in a game setting that's all that's required. The actual game mechanics and methods of stat distribution are irrelevant.

Demonjustin

06-13-2014, 09:24 PM

Dubious. It doesn't give me more reasons to log in. Even if I can max out more WS, that's not going to impact my current login rate. If it doesn't give me more reasons, it stands to reason that at least some other people aren't given more reasons. If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already.That doesn't make a lot of sense. No one said that being unable to merit things is pushing them toward not logging in. There's a large difference between "this gives us more reasons to log in" and "without this, I don't want to log in as much". More things to merit means more things to do, which means more reasons to log in as a result. There's not a player in this game who wouldn't gain use from uncapping merit points as a whole, there aren't many who wouldn't benefit from uncapping weaponskill merits.

Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.It also is at a dead end for most players right now and as a result gives less reason to do that content. I never do VW unless I need merits for MPNMs, that's not often. If I had more merits to get for WSs or to get my RDM more spells I'd do it in a heartbeat, instead I'm left with little benefit/incentive.

Opinion, not a fact.Not really. I can't think of anything in this game really that limits you to one thing or another like merits do. We have 22 jobs, but we pick between them at will and can not only level them all to capped level but gear them to the maximum extreme. We have a few choices like what country we live in but that choice is minor especially now days, we have choices in what mission rewards we want but those are almost always worthless except for one option anyways. Job Points aren't limited at all, they are removing the cap on HP/MP basically, I mean to me it seems like it makes sense to say that the majority of merit points as a system are the only real 'specialized' system in this game. If they are, that by definition would mean they fall outside of the rest of FFXI's paradigm. At least that's how I see things.

Mefuki

06-13-2014, 09:46 PM

Camiie

06-13-2014, 09:54 PM

Deep down I think people who support merit caps on weapon skills are just afraid of having even competition on their favored jobs. They don't want to get shown up on their primary job by someone who just leveled that job as their 4th. That's why they want to convince everyone that you don't NEED that merited WS to play the job. They want to maintain the edge they gain by having it themselves. If it wasn't worth having then they wouldn't have bothered with it themselves.

PlumbGame

06-13-2014, 09:57 PM

The argument that uncapping merits will hurt uniqueness doesn't make sense to me, not only because, as Byrth has said, there's usually only one "right" way to merit but also because there's only so much time in a day. Even if you were to uncap merits people would still be distinct. I'm a BLU main, maybe Justin is a RDM main, Byrth is maybe a DNC main etc and we each have different secondary jobs and we only have so much time to devote to any job/jobs and getting gear for those jobs. Merits make no difference as far as uniqueness goes.

Actually they do, now lets say you and your buddies all have BLU lvl'd, but you are the only one that put merits into merits that benefit BLU, although with the new gear unless merit caps are raised or something of the sorts, the difference in minimal, but from a min/max standpoint, you would out perform the other BLUs, hence making you unique to the other BLUs in theory. Basically, the merits help to try and stand out a little more so that people maybe aren't all the same, give that extra push for the people who actually enjoy the jobs they put the merits into to benefit. They also don't really make or break you now and days as much as they did back in the days, but they still help you excel no matter how you look at it.

PlumbGame

06-13-2014, 10:00 PM

Lithera

06-13-2014, 10:41 PM

I've been staying out of this but that last reply to Afania made me laugh a little and think they would be one of the few people who would have liked FF II's leveling system. The only FF that had such a strict +/- system.

Nappy

06-13-2014, 11:00 PM

As a person who normally out parses the vast majority of DDs i see if you look at my ffxiah profile you will see i have 1/5 in alot of weaponskills. I can asure you that the measly ~200 dmg boost that we have been looking at is nothing. Now with the update to other weaponskills there seems to be alot more choices. I honestly cant wait to see how they do!

newmonkey

06-13-2014, 11:41 PM

Camiie

06-14-2014, 01:11 AM

Oh, excuse those players for not wanting to be generic ff player #4524 instead of maybe somehow differentiating themselves from the pact.

They ARE generic FF player #4524 just as you are #4525 and I'm #4526. No weapon skill is going to change that.

Afania

06-14-2014, 01:46 AM

This isn't even a logical discussion. The whole thing on both sides is based on feelings and preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that you seem to think that an RPG can only be an RPG if it's based on a plus/minus system. That somehow if SE allows a player to unlock all weapon skills on a single character that FFXI is no longer an RPG.

I never deny the fact that my argument is based on personal preference, so does everyone else's.

I don't MIND SE adding other RPG element if they remove merit point system, but as it stands now, this game is already lacking RPG element and removing them = even less.

FFXI doesn't even have a plus/minus system in the first place as you've defined it. It has limits, but choosing to "plus" one thing doesn't cause another thing to "minus." My INT doesn't go down when I merit STR. My WAR doesn't delevel when I level my BLM. My ice potency doesn't decrease when I merit earth. So, your whole plus/minus argument is moot anyway. FFXI is already not an RPG by your rather strict definition.

When you merit STR DEX, your INT merit is 0/12, this is essentially the same thing.

It's a fantasy game. Asking for it to mimic real life in such a way is absurd.

Even though it's a fantasy game, the game still has to follow certain "rule" that makes sense and related to rl. That'd create a feeling that we're in a virtual world, and immerse in it. Just because it's fantasy world, doesn't mean we can do anything we want.

I mean, why are there gravity? Why can't characters just fly and go through walls? Why do we have economy? Why can't we get free food/material? Why do we have arrows? Why can't we play this game like FFXIV that we just equip a bow and get free arrows?

Game dev can make any rule in a game because it's fantasy, but each rule must enhance the game playing experience to achieve the design goal. If the design goal is to create a world that simulate rl as much as possible in a fantasy world, then having arrows or having merit cap makes sense.

"Read a scroll and learn spell" is how this world works, so does "A pro BLM that spends entire life studying can't be the best RNG".

Personally, I think it's more interesting that way. This is, of course, personal preference. Since I like RPG or MMORPG closer to virtual life simulator.

Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

The point is that current FFXI doesn't offer room for uniqueness without merit point. And I still don't agree with "I'm unique because I say different thing in /p"

Again you have this very narrow view about what an RPG is. An RPG can still be an RPG with total freedom. As long as you're playing a role in a game setting that's all that's required. The actual game mechanics and methods of stat distribution are irrelevant.

Except RPG has always been about stats and +/-, making decisions about skills and such for past 30+ years. Don't try to reinvent the genre and remove such element and claim it's still RPG. In fact for games like JRPG, which is often more linear, is often being viewed as "adventure game with levels" instead of real RPG.

I'm not the only one with this POV. Most players in RPG community do view linearity "not real RPG". This isn't narrow POV, this is just how this genre works for past 30+ years.

Deep down I think people who support merit caps on weapon skills are just afraid of having even competition on their favored jobs. They don't want to get shown up on their primary job by someone who just leveled that job as their 4th. That's why they want to convince everyone that you don't NEED that merited WS to play the job. They want to maintain the edge they gain by having it themselves. If it wasn't worth having then they wouldn't have bothered with it themselves.

This is silly, I've been saying I agree the gap between merit point WS and the 2nd best option should be lowered, and certain job REALLY DON'T NEED IT. I'm against removing merit cap as a whole but I didn't say a thing about current WS hierarchy is doing right.

Also, after next WS update there's absolute 0 reason to complain about merit cap on WS anymore. Most of the jobs get better alternative.

Afania

06-14-2014, 01:57 AM

The argument that uncapping merits will hurt uniqueness doesn't make sense to me, not only because, as Byrth has said, there's usually only one "right" way to merit but also because there's only so much time in a day. Even if you were to uncap merits people would still be distinct. I'm a BLU main, maybe Justin is a RDM main, Byrth is maybe a DNC main etc and we each have different secondary jobs and we only have so much time to devote to any job/jobs and getting gear for those jobs. Merits make no difference as far as uniqueness goes.

Nah, I'm pretty sure a BLM main would merit INT instead of DEX. And I already explained the time spent issue in previous posts. Time spent on gearing a job doesn't make a player unique unless 1 job needs 10000 hours to complete. You certainly don't need 10000 hours to obtain very good gears in every slot in FFXI nowaday, more like 100 hrs.

If dev really make 1 job needing 10000 hours to master, players gonna cry too. Thus merit point system is a better option to create uniqueness, at least better than weekly gear cap in FFXIV, or super 10000hr grind fest.

Alhanelem

06-14-2014, 03:51 AM

No one said that being unable to merit things is pushing them toward not logging in.It was said that being able to merit everything would push them toward logging in, so it makes total sense that the opposite is true if they do not uncap merits.

I can't think of anything in this game really that limits you to one thing or another like merits do.Merits don't limit you, they give you choices for customization. Very little in the way of merits is truly necessary for gameplay. Merits are additions to what you already have, your job is not nonfunctional without them. Merits don't limit you to one thing or another, they simply give you a choice of favorite jobs to emphasize. Ive said time and time again, you don't have to have every merit wepon skill to play every job (even more so with the WS adjustmentes0, you don't have to have just the right attribute merits to play every job, you don't have to have just the right skill or Others merits to play every job; The rest of the categories are job specific and so don't really matter for this discussion.

Your statement implies jobs cannot be played without gearing merits just for htem, and that is simply completely not true. It is a player base issue, not a merit points issue, that players demand a far higher level of perfection than is really necessary to clear content.

Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.That only makes you "unique" until you have every merit WS. It makes people feel obligated to get them all just because they can, even though they probably don't need them all. Once the active playerbase has done this, there is no difference from one player to another and the merit system has failed at its originally intended function of offering customization options.

Remove merit caps and the only uniqueness from one player to the next will be whether they are haves or have nots, and their character appearance (which has so few options that everyone has at least a few lookalikes).

Ravenmore

06-14-2014, 06:51 AM

LOL really now. Ok so I show up as a drg to a delve boss run and say I don't have angon because I want to be as special snow flake how fast do you think the group would kick me. If you want to do group content you have to submit to what the group needs and wants. While yes it is a player issue it is also SE's issue to fix it, and changing the game is a whole lot easier then trying to change people.There is no harm AT ALL in uncapping the system. As so many people have pointed out there has always only been one right way to spend job merits if you wanted to do content on that job.

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful. Also they have been upping the caps on the ones that used to really limit what jobs you can max out before the merited weapon skills were added. Combat, HP/MP, magic skills, attributes even the other cat have gotten increases that now limit you very little.

Demonjustin

06-14-2014, 07:01 AM

It was said that being able to merit everything would push them toward logging in, so it makes total sense that the opposite is true if they do not uncap merits.No. You see this is where we're misunderstanding one another I think.

Imagine on this chart the left is how little someone wants to log in due to something, while the right is how much people want to log in because of something.
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/Chart.png

Now, what we have right now is this...
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/Chart1.png

This is neutral, people don't want to log in more, nor do they want to log in less necessarily, meaning this update has no impact by not being done. This is what I was saying is the case.

The way you originally worded your statement is "If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already." which would look more like...
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/Chart3.png

Which is showing fewer people wanting to log in till this kind of update would be done. Regardless, it's not what is being said. What is being said is that right now we're at that neutral point up above but doing this...
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/Chart2.png

Merits don't limit you, they give you choices for customization.They only give you choices for customization via limiting you. So that's basically saying they don't limit you, they just limit you. It's a "one man's trash is another man's treasure" situation, call it what you like it's a limiting system either way.

Camiie

06-14-2014, 09:40 AM

That only makes you "unique" until you have every merit WS. It makes people feel obligated to get them all just because they can, even though they probably don't need them all. Once the active playerbase has done this, there is no difference from one player to another and the merit system has failed at its originally intended function of offering customization options.

Remove merit caps and the only uniqueness from one player to the next will be whether they are haves or have nots, and their character appearance (which has so few options that everyone has at least a few lookalikes).

I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.

FrankReynolds

06-15-2014, 02:54 PM

You overstate the impact of the system immensely.

Well that's a catch 22. If it doesn't make a significant difference, then it doesn't make you significantly unique. So find some other way to be unique. This one is unimportant.

Alhanelem

06-16-2014, 02:43 PM

I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.
Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

They only give you choices for customization via limiting you.You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true. You're still free to use any job and still beat content. You're free to change your merits at any time with (relatively) low difficulty.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful.It's more likely those people will either 1) quit the game or 2) only do solo stuff. The elitist community is shooting themselves in the foot and reducing overall server populations further by trying to get people who want to play the game their way to "relent," if you ask me. So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

Malithar

06-16-2014, 04:54 PM

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true.
Your definition of limited seems to be vastly different than what nearly anyone else would consider limited.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!
No. Good game design would be each and every Job Merit being roughly equal in utility. That's obviously not the case, hence most jobs have a fairly straight forward "this is what you merit." Some have some uniqueness and options to them, and the one's that do, I'd back as being good design.

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.
Not specifically you, but typically the snow flake players I've met are just, for lack of a better phrase, straight up bad. They're the Whms that can't keep a haste rotation, that are oblivious to the uses of Boost-spells and Dia, the DDs who don't WS swap, the melee mages that get one shot, etc. Pick your poison. But once your taint ruins runs, that's that, ya know? Gone or not, I don't think many really care.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

Xantavia

06-16-2014, 09:48 PM

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.
You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

predatory

06-17-2014, 12:35 AM

Afania

06-17-2014, 01:36 AM

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

There's also the overzealous feel of "I'm being hindered" with merit point system, but in reality you are not.

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

I also don't understand the logic behind "If you like merit point system and decision making, you don't have logic. If you don't like merit point system you have logic." If there's a flaw in merit point system, such as certain choices are more popular than another, the right fix is to balance it, not remove it.

detlef

06-17-2014, 03:35 AM

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.

Olor

06-17-2014, 04:59 AM

SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.

That's totally different. No other job was required to do alliance content to get to 119. Changing it so that PUP and SMN which are among the weakest jobs in the game were not artificially barred from being at level 119 power by alliance content was sensible.

Malithar

06-17-2014, 05:59 AM

You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

I like this post.

It's pretty close to how I view the system.

However, to expand a bit on the D&D bit, it's a bit different of a view. While in D&D, or WoW, or any other MMO where your character selects a class, a path, etc, and retains that path through their life, its far different in FFXI. From the onset, you're given 22 jobs, all of which can have any of those same jobs subbed. Makes for a rather in depth system. Unlike those other games, you're able to change your job to suit your needs, rather than say, make a hybrid character that's capable of healing, DDing, and taking a few hits, but at the cost of higher tier specialized abilities.

Considering that your character's job can be changed to suit your needs at will, that's where the merit cap doesn't make sense, IMO. Trade offs on a per job basis are fine, but when your choices for one job affect another job, it's no longer about tradeoffs to be strong in one area but weaker in another, as those tradeoffs are very likely not even incorporated in the job you're playing.

Afania

06-17-2014, 09:44 AM

I like this post.

It's pretty close to how I view the system.

However, to expand a bit on the D&D bit, it's a bit different of a view. While in D&D, or WoW, or any other MMO where your character selects a class, a path, etc, and retains that path through their life, its far different in FFXI. From the onset, you're given 22 jobs, all of which can have any of those same jobs subbed. Makes for a rather in depth system. Unlike those other games, you're able to change your job to suit your needs, rather than say, make a hybrid character that's capable of healing, DDing, and taking a few hits, but at the cost of higher tier specialized abilities.

Considering that your character's job can be changed to suit your needs at will, that's where the merit cap doesn't make sense, IMO. Trade offs on a per job basis are fine, but when your choices for one job affect another job, it's no longer about tradeoffs to be strong in one area but weaker in another, as those tradeoffs are very likely not even incorporated in the job you're playing.

Let's say, if you're playing another MMORPG with a talent tree you can pick between DD Paladin or tank Paladin. If you pick DD paladin your character will suck at PVE and but good at PVP, and vice versa, tank Paladin will be useful in PVE but suck at PVP. You don't get "full functionality" with talent tree.

Isn't that the same thing as FFXI merit point system? If you have STR DEX merit your character will shine on WAR when you're in a content that benefits WAR, but you won't shine as much on BLM in a content that benefits BLM. And vice versa, your BLM will shine in a content that needs magic burn and suck in a content that melee works.

Honestly there really isn't much difference between talent tree and merit point.

Demonjustin

06-17-2014, 10:20 AM

Let's say, if you're playing another MMORPG with a talent tree you can pick between DD Paladin or tank Paladin. If you pick DD paladin your character will suck at PVE and but good at PVP, and vice versa, tank Paladin will be useful in PVE but suck at PVP. You don't get "full functionality" with talent tree.

Isn't that the same thing as FFXI merit point system? If you have STR DEX merit your character will shine on WAR when you're in a content that benefits WAR, but you won't shine as much on BLM in a content that benefits BLM. And vice versa, your BLM will shine in a content that needs magic burn and suck in a content that melee works.

Honestly there really isn't much difference between talent tree and merit point.A talent tree is based on a job, not a character, merit points are character based. If I merit STR & DEX then all jobs get STR & DEX, the fact my WHM will never melee and my RDM is often neglected in that field doesn't change the fact that those are 2 highly vital stats for when I do melee and thus as such I have picked them for my entire character no matter what job I'm on. It's a large distinctive difference than what you're talking about, on the other hand if you want to compare that to job specific merits then that's one thing, but those are terrible as well as almost all of the categories are stuck with only a couple good choices and a bunch of bad ones which really takes away any chance of being unique without gimping yourself.

Lastly you have the job specific categories that are just flat out bad for some jobs and limit what the job itself can even do, for instance a RDM and a SCH/RDM can do almost the exact same in terms of enfeebling when it comes to both accuracy and potency. RDM gets an extremely small step ahead in both due to gear and Job Points but the only thing that lets RDM truly set itself apart from others in either are merits in 2 of 6 spells which still limits the job terribly. These are the ones that are most comparable to a skill tree and they are truly the worst kind in this game because it's the only thing that sets some jobs apart, while other jobs like MNK have only 2 real choices to begin with and if you don't pick those, you're gimping yourself.

Afania

06-18-2014, 01:54 AM

A talent tree is based on a job, not a character, merit points are character based.

Talent tree is character based because you can only have 1 job/class in other MMO. Your class= your character. If you build your character that way it'd play that way in every content, which means no full functionality depending on what you do.

Honestly I don't see the difference - -.

Demonjustin

06-18-2014, 07:43 AM

Honestly I don't see the difference - -.Which is your problem. The fact you can't change your class in other games is part of the restrictive nature of other MMOs, part of the stand out features of FFXI is that it doesn't limit you in this way. This is why it's been said consistently that merit points limiting you is the antithesis of the game's nature, other games limit your character to 1 job, that 1 job to 1 path, that path to a certain set of skills and points, resulting in a unique character, but FFXI limits you in none of those ways except merits. This is the difference, and it's a very large one in the end. Put simply, you're comparing apples to oranges.

PlumbGame

06-18-2014, 01:48 PM

Which is your problem. The fact you can't change your class in other games is part of the restrictive nature of other MMOs, part of the stand out features of FFXI is that it doesn't limit you in this way. This is why it's been said consistently that merit points limiting you is the antithesis of the game's nature, other games limit your character to 1 job, that 1 job to 1 path, that path to a certain set of skills and points, resulting in a unique character, but FFXI limits you in none of those ways except merits. This is the difference, and it's a very large one in the end. Put simply, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Also, that has been consistently pointed out, it doesn't.

Alhanelem

06-18-2014, 02:20 PM

limit your character to 1 job,Other games don't lock extra characters behind a paywall though, therefore you can play every class in those games too, just not on the same identity. FFXI is unusual in restricting you from more than one character unless you pay more. Customization systems are no more the antithesis for XI than they are for any other game.

The problem as I see it is two schools of thought, basically (but not exactly) a cup half full and cup half empty issue. There are those who view talent trees and merits and other similar systems as little more than non-level progression ( cup half empty approach) where the lack of them is a penalty. Then there are those who view these systems as bonuses or customization options when possessed rather than a punishment for not having (Cup half full). Neither is inherently wrong, and I'd like to stress that I'm really not trying to call anyone wrong in sharing my view on the matter. Personally, to me the best way to address the complaints and retain the customization of the system would be to drastically reduce the difficulty of changing your merits. If you could just respec them for a fee (instead of having to get whole new merits) in your mog house or something, you'd have the customization without the limitations being as much of a hinderance. In most other games with similar systems, it is not very difficult to undo/redo your decisions.

(Perhaps if the tradeoff was built into each effect/ability- that is, every merit has a benefit and a downside, that people would look at them more as customization and not as character progression)

So to be perfectly clear, even though I view the merit system as a customization system more than a progression device, there are a lot of ways the system could execute that goal a lot better than it does now. In posting that I don't want them to uncap merits, that doesn't mean that I feel that the merit system is perfect and without flaw (It very much isn't).

Ravenmore

06-18-2014, 06:23 PM

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

News flash they already do this under the current system because they got sick of repeating it over and over for the current favor of the month jobs. Grinding gets really boring no matter if you do it all in one go or you keep having to do it. Also if you haven't been paying attention HP/MP and magic skills are going up on the caps where you can either max them all or come really close. That only leaves Job merits and all but rdm have a right way to merit and anything short is going to get you excluded from content that isn't solo based.

Stop defending them for not pushing out new content and propping up this whole grinding equals content. The simple answer to keeping people from getting bored is to push out meaningful content faster. What prop the game up in the past won't cut it in today's market plan and simple. Long gone are the days of burning sky for 1% drops and trying to beat claim bots on 72 hour kings get over it or rushing that new ls member though CoP because they promised to come whm or rdm to everything. It was bad game design then and still is.

Every mob(that wasn't AV SEs little pet) in old endgame was easy once someone posted the strat and it went to another boring farm and the only reason half your ls even bother showing up was to stay on top for the drop they wanted not because they enjoyed the event or even cared for most of the other LS members. The fact the big LSes died the sec they were no longer needed show how bad it was.

Sadly SE thought it was cheaper to build another MMO from the ground up then rebuilding XI(jokes on them) and adding systems that would have made it challenging with out relying on cheap crap. Like just over powering the mobs and the players answering with only taking the one job with the highest HP and the mage that could cure for the most. If they added stuff like 14 boss fights or even some of the fights in XI where you had to pay attention to were you are standing during such and such TP move or the environment changed like the Diabolos fight.

Camiie

06-18-2014, 06:29 PM

Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

You're shooting your own argument in the foot by downplaying the effectiveness of the merit weapon skills. You're painting them as worthless yet latching onto them as though they have considerable value. Which is it? If they're completely unnecessary, then there's no reason to limit them as having them all fully merited does not make one overpowered, nor does having a useless ability make one meaningfully unique.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

That's a highly disrespectful and demeaning comment. You're just outright insulting me and anyone who disagrees with you at this point.

predatory

06-19-2014, 12:06 AM

who was defending them, I was just saying how it is, I did mention lack of endgame content a couple of times, how does that seem like defending them? I was talking more about the business model, I rarely defend SE these days, they've really fucked the game up, but I do truly believe if they opened up the merit points completely half the player base would be gone in a month, maybe two

Alhanelem

06-19-2014, 12:36 AM

That's a highly disrespectful and demeaning comment. You're just outright insulting me and anyone who disagrees with you at this point. It was a joke at the time, not an insult. Also, it's the only such thing Ive made in this entire thread. I have not been insulting you or anyone else who disagrees with me, whereas I've been called multiple names including "moron" for my opinion. Have I called you any names? No. Have I called anyone else any names? No. Others have been FAR, FAR more disrespectful and demeaning to me.

There's no justice around here, I'm the one being attacked for my opinion. I've made it very clear that I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything, that inspite of my view I still find significant flaws in the merit system, and that while I hold this viewpoint, I do understand and respect the view held by others. So why you all seem so hellbent on attacking me, calling names, and making me look bad, I really don't know.

As I said before, if I've made up my mind and I've acknolwedged the other viewpoint and I'm in a minority, why try so hard to break me down? If SE decided they wanted to make changes to merits based on this thread, it's pretty obvious what they'd do so it's not like you have anything to worry about.

You're shooting your own argument in the foot by downplaying the effectiveness of the merit weapon skills.Actually, I'm strengthening my argument. If their impact is minor, they are totally fine to remain as they are. Customization doesn't have to be extraordinarily useful. The benefits are minor but so are the pitfalls.

detlef

06-19-2014, 03:01 AM

Actually, I'm strengthening my argument. If their impact is minor, they are totally fine to remain as they are. Customization doesn't have to be extraordinarily useful. The benefits are minor but so are the pitfalls.It doesn't strengthen your argument because your assertion that their impact is minor is incorrect. We can't go by your definition of minor as "something that is not necessary to clear content" because that definition could then be applied to everything in the game.

You don't like VW drop rates? Well you're already clearing VW without the gear so it must be fine. You don't need it to clear content so why change it?

Hey weren't you complaining about how you didn't have enough merits to even merit BRD and GEO magic skills all the way? Well just this once, we'll up the category limits so you can finally maximize your potential. But only because meriting is all there is to do this update. Oh but anyway, you don't need that, I'm sure you can still clear content without that.

What's that? You don't like it that Seraphicaller and Divinator are only available from alliance content? Well tell you what, we WILL change that for you. Just know that we didn't have to, since they're not necessary to clear content. Don't do the BCs for this, you should be happy with your Eminent Animator. You can still clear whatever content is relevant to you.

Let's just leave everything the way it is. You're already doing great and you're a fine poster!

Alhanelem

06-19-2014, 07:31 AM

It doesn't strengthen your argument because your assertion that their impact is minor is incorrect. We can't go by your definition of minor as "something that is not necessary to clear content"Except you can go by that definition, because it's true. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it false.

because that definition could then be applied to everything in the game You're right, it can. I fail to see the problem here. I must say, I have to commend you on your great job masking hostility with sarcasm though.

detlef

06-19-2014, 08:04 AM

You're right, it can. I fail to see the problem here.If you use that definition then you're pretty much against every improvement in the game. Are you? Do you hate the balancing of racial HP/MP? Were you against the increased TP gain and balancing of weapon skills? When Wardrobe was added, did mutter angrily to yourself for several minutes? Sure people can beat content without those things, but, according to you, there was no reason to make those improvements. All I ever see you do is argue against change.

I must say, I have to commend you on your great job masking hostility with sarcasm though.To be fair, it wasn't masked very well. But I will take the compliment.

Camiie

06-19-2014, 09:26 AM

It was a joke at the time, not an insult. Also, it's the only such thing Ive made in this entire thread. I have not been insulting you or anyone else who disagrees with me, whereas I've been called multiple names including "moron" for my opinion. Have I called you any names? No. Have I called anyone else any names? No. Others have been FAR, FAR more disrespectful and demeaning to me.

You aimed your "joke at the time" (so what is it now) squarely at me and I didn't call you anything. You just categorized everything I said as nonsense, and it isn't no matter how you feel about it.

There's no justice around here, I'm the one being attacked for my opinion. I've made it very clear that I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything, that inspite of my view I still find significant flaws in the merit system, and that while I hold this viewpoint, I do understand and respect the view held by others. So why you all seem so hellbent on attacking me, calling names, and making me look bad, I really don't know. As I said before, if I've made up my mind and I've acknolwedged the other viewpoint and I'm in a minority, why try so hard to break me down? If SE decided they wanted to make changes to merits based on this thread, it's pretty obvious what they'd do so it's not like you have anything to worry about.

Again I haven't called you anything, but please don't let that fact kill the mood at your pity party.

Actually, I'm strengthening my argument. If their impact is minor, they are totally fine to remain as they are. Customization doesn't have to be extraordinarily useful. The benefits are minor but so are the pitfalls.

If customization doesn't have to be useful then let's make all customization come from purely cosmetic sources and leave weapon skills, stats, and abilities out of it. Looks like we've finally found common ground. I knew it'd happen eventually.

Alhanelem

06-19-2014, 01:10 PM

If customization doesn't have to be useful then let's make all customization come from purely cosmetic sources and leave weapon skills, stats, and abilities out of it. Looks like we've finally found common ground. I knew it'd happen eventually. No, we haven't found common ground. I didn't say it wasn't useful, only that it was "minor." Meaning, not drastically game changing. Having these things doesn't make miracles happen, and not having them doesn't make things impossible. There is plenty of room in between. You're twisting my words here. Customization is not just cosmetic sources and that's not how I want it to be. This game does a bad job of that as it is- 11+ years running and all we have is a command that temporarily locks your appearance until you zone.

Here is what I want, plain and simple: I want changing your merit configuration to be less difficult. The merits you earn should be permanent (and they should find some other currency for those battlefields because spending merits on them is silly). You should be able to change them in your mog house freely or at some minor cost or with some reasonable cooldown. Then all the people complaining here essentially get what they want while not completely ruining the customization aspect of the system. (Not to say I don't have other ideas, but I'm trying to be realistic as to the sorts of things SE could technically do)

FrankReynolds

06-24-2014, 03:27 AM

No, we haven't found common ground. I didn't say it wasn't useful, only that it was "minor." Meaning, not drastically game changing. Having these things doesn't make miracles happen, and not having them doesn't make things impossible. There is plenty of room in between. You're twisting my words here. Customization is not just cosmetic sources and that's not how I want it to be. This game does a bad job of that as it is- 11+ years running and all we have is a command that temporarily locks your appearance until you zone.

Here is what I want, plain and simple: I want changing your merit configuration to be less difficult. The merits you earn should be permanent (and they should find some other currency for those battlefields because spending merits on them is silly). You should be able to change them in your mog house freely or at some minor cost or with some reasonable cooldown. Then all the people complaining here essentially get what they want while not completely ruining the customization aspect of the system. (Not to say I don't have other ideas, but I'm trying to be realistic as to the sorts of things SE could technically do)

So basically you want the exact same outcome (everyone can use all the merit WS at full power), but with just enough difference in how it is implemented to make it look like you won the argument. Fine by me. You win.

You hear that SE? Alhanelem Wants to use all the merit WS at full strength too now. Go get it done.

Olor

06-24-2014, 03:34 AM

they aren't going to change it. Seriously. It's funny y'all are acting like Alhanelem was somehow preventing it. Honestly the players of this game gotta get out of the min-maxing extremism - if you need a WS for some special property then just put a point in it. No big deal. Use a different WS as your main DD WS... almost every merit WS has a non-merit WS that is completely competitive with it.

I don't understand all the wailing about this. Merits have always been about choice. Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is. I'd love to be able to max at least 5, and I think that would be more reasonable but I don't mind the idea that there is a trade off - if I want to be the best BLU and have acess to full strength of all their available WS - it might mean I have to sacrifice a bit of power (and really 1 or 2 points from max is actually not a big deal) from a different job.

But with so little difference between 1 point and 5, I really don't get the extreme issue people have with this... but it's a symptom of larger attitude problem in the playerbase...

Demonjustin

06-24-2014, 01:31 PM

Here is what I want, plain and simple: I want changing your merit configuration to be less difficult. The merits you earn should be permanent (and they should find some other currency for those battlefields because spending merits on them is silly). You should be able to change them in your mog house freely or at some minor cost or with some reasonable cooldown. Then all the people complaining here essentially get what they want while not completely ruining the customization aspect of the system. (Not to say I don't have other ideas, but I'm trying to be realistic as to the sorts of things SE could technically do)So you want to be able to change your merit configuration without having to re-obtain merits, which would result in basically the exact same outcome as simply removing the caps entirely except that STR/DEX/VIT/Ect and Job Specific Merits would remain the same and you'd have to put more work into changing things around.

-_-;

Alhanelem

06-24-2014, 04:59 PM

So basically you want the exact same outcome (everyone can use all the merit WS at full power), but with just enough difference in how it is implemented to make it look like you won the argument. Fine by me. You win.

You hear that SE? Alhanelem Wants to use all the merit WS at full strength too now. Go get it done. No.
1) I don't give a rat's behind about "winning" (though, you sure seem to the way you've been fighting against me)
2) You don't understand. See below for how this is not the same thing.

So you want to be able to change your merit configuration without having to re-obtain merits, which would result in basically the exact same outcome as simply removing the caps entirely except that STR/DEX/VIT/Ect and Job Specific Merits would remain the same and you'd have to put more work into changing things around.

-_-;It's not anywhere near the same as removing the caps because you don't have everything all at once. It merely cuts down on the hassle of changing your mind about a decision. Choice still matters, but you don't have to worry as much about regretting a decision you made, because you can reasonably change it (Where you can modify merit points, that is). You'd have to put LESS work into changing things around vs not doing this at all, because without these changes, you'd have to go spend a few hours or whatever getting all the merits back.

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

But with so little difference between 1 point and 5, I really don't get the extreme issue people have with this... but it's a symptom of larger attitude problem in the playerbase... Well most of the people here would have you believe that those few stat mod percentage points and the bit of extra damage they offer are critical and essential to winning anything when they really aren't.

SE has basically made their decision about how the merit point system works. They're going to raise the limits when they plan to raise them and neither I nor anyone here is likely to get what they want. In the end this isn't the terrible disaster of a situation that people are making it out to be.

Malithar

06-24-2014, 05:38 PM

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

Ok. Even though my Blm having +15 Str does diddly squat, or my Whm having Dex +15, or my War having Mnd +15, or my Blu having Scythe skill +16, or my Smn having Dark Magic +16, etc. You get the point. I'll relent though, it's unbalanced, it's unholy, it's a terrible idea.

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

Well most of the people here would have you believe that those few stat mod percentage points and the bit of extra damage they offer are critical and essential to winning anything when they really aren't.

...Ok? It's not balanced, it's not fair, it's not with the role playing, it's too much hassle/work, it's not needed, it ruins my uniqueness, it prolly stole your lunch money, and it's most certainly going to cause the downfall of the game.

You're right, there is no winning or losing here, it's not about that, it's about talking in as wide of a circle as possible to make our points the last post. I get it.

For reals though, you even relented and said "oh, make em easily switchable so we can have whatever we want/need on any given job!" Not an attack, but do you really not see the terribly annoying flaw present with that idea?

Demonjustin

06-24-2014, 06:23 PM

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.I make that face because you seem not to even understand what you're really saying... You just said something and then you're going to argue my interpretation of what you said is wrong, even though it's accurate and I'm going to tell you how after this response to this stupid part of your post so that you can likely just argue with me yet again about the very same thing.

Now before I start to reply, I'm quoting myself, easier to see what I'm talking about that way.

So you want to be able to change your merit configuration without having to re-obtain merits, which would result in basically the exact same outcome as simply removing the caps entirely except that STR/DEX/VIT/Ect and Job Specific Merits would remain the same and you'd have to put more work into changing things around.

-_-;

It's not anywhere near the same as removing the caps because you don't have everything all at once. It merely cuts down on the hassle of changing your mind about a decision. Choice still matters, but you don't have to worry as much about regretting a decision you made, because you can reasonably change it (Where you can modify merit points, that is). You'd have to put LESS work into changing things around vs not doing this at all, because without these changes, you'd have to go spend a few hours or whatever getting all the merits back.This is the exact reason I said that you'd have to put more work into changing things around than if the cap were removed entirely. Less than currently, yes, that I think is obvious, but it'd be more work than if we removed the caps all together. Why do I say your idea and removing the caps are almost exactly the same? Well lets look at your next part of your post.

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.Cutting this down a bit.

You don't have +12 to every single stat12 to every single stat is something I said yours would be different from. Listing that only makes it seem as though you didn't understand that part of my post or you somehow skipped over it.

maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once.Yes, that's a difference. Maxing out every skill, Other, or WS, means nothing however. Why? Name me a situation in which a player needs more than 7 capped Combat Skills, more than 6 capped Magic Skills, more than two of the Other(Enmity +5, Enmity -5, Enemy Crit Rate -5, Crit Rate +5, Spell Int -5) and/or more than three different Merit WSs. Give me that magical situation where a player needs all of that and I'll agree that your idea is different outside of the STR/DEX/VIT/Ect stats and Job Specific Merits.

You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.Give me this power and you may as well uncap every category because it won't change much of how I function at all.

I'd go to an event as a mage, INT, MND, my core magic stats, my job's melee weapon, EVA, Shield, Parry, Spell Int, and - Enmity.

I'd go to an event as a melee, STR, DEX, my primary weapon, whatever magic I might need, EVA, Parry, Crit Rate, and - Enmity.

I'd go to an event as a tank, DEX, VIT, my primary weapon, whatever magic I might need, EVA, Shield, Parry, Enemy Crit, and + Enmity.

In each of these scenarios I'm using a max of 2/2 stats, 4/7 Combat Skills, 0~6 Magic Skills, and 2 Others. Others could be pushed further, the only one I see any use in going above the current cap and even then 4 would be the max any job would ever need. At the very least you're looking at having to find a job that uses 4 types of weapons or 7 magic skill categories for an event, I can't think of a single one.

Your solution is no different than uncapping, except it hurts jobs more by restricting abilities in the Job Specific category like RDM whose spells are locked behind a stupid system meant for customization that provides next to none, the fact it requires more work on the part of the player when it comes to changing jobs, and the fact it doesn't let us uncap STR/DEX/VIT/Ect. That said, feel free Alhanelem to correct me on how I'm wrong, argue with me the semantics of how I'm incorrect in all of this and how your idea is different and would allow for customization, give me such an example in which those restrictions listed above can't be dealt with within your idea. If you can't do that, then admit your idea's similarities and stop acting as though it's so different that while our idea would somehow break the game, yours wouldn't.

Alhanelem

06-25-2014, 02:55 AM

huge pile of sarcasm
If you can't reply in a serious / civil tone, don't reply at all. I'm really sick of your rude behaivor.

For reals though, you even relented and said "oh, make em easily switchable so we can have whatever we want/need on any given job!" Not an attack, but do you really not see the terribly annoying flaw present with that idea?I would consider uncapping all categories a much more significant flaw.

Most people - that is, everyone outside of the hardcore elitists- aren't going to feel the need to constantly change their merits around. They'll only bother to change them in cases where it really makes a difference (though I have argued that it usually doesn't matter much very often). For those of you who feel the need to min-max everything you do, I can see how it would be annoying, but it's still far better than having to farm tens of thousands of XP over again- and I consider making merits easier to change a far more likely thing to actually happen than a total unrestriction of all merit point categories. If they thought that was a good idea they would have done that a long time ago. Heck, actually, the Job Point system was meant to cater to the minmaxers- it lets you get everything, assuming you have the time and patience to do so.

Thus we have:

Merit Points - Customization system- doesn't let you have everything at once, moderate time investment
Job Points - Pure progression system - lets you get everything, extensive time investment

Yes, that's a difference. Maxing out every skill, Other, or WS, means nothing however. Why? Name me a situation in which a player needs more than 7 capped Combat SkillsI mentioned how this favors certain jobs more than others-This is because certain jobs can use more of the WS. The heavy melees, which can use a number of different weapons and the skills for them, benefit notably more from an uncapping than light melee/ranged/support/mages. The latter jobs might only ever use one or two of the WS, so they gain less advantage out of such a change versus say warrior or DRK. (as an aside, this general discrepanacy is one of the things that annoyed me about voidwatch- something that was intended to include more jobs failed to do so). I suppose you can argue that this is more a flaw in the combat system itself than the merit system, however uncapping merits would certainly not help that situation.

except it hurts jobs more by restricting abilities in the Job Specific category like RDM whose spells are locked behind a stupid system meant for customization that provides next to noneThey most indeed do provide customization. It's not my fault if a lot of people copy eachother and ignore it. In some cases it's SE's fault for not balancing the different merit options well- Something I would agree they should address if they want these categories to serve their intended purpose. That said, you still don't have 100% of all people picking the same Job merit combinations.

FrankReynolds

06-25-2014, 03:16 AM

No.
1) I don't give a rat's behind about "winning" (though, you sure seem to the way you've been fighting against me)
2) You don't understand. See below for how this is not the same thing.

It's not anywhere near the same as removing the caps because you don't have everything all at once. It merely cuts down on the hassle of changing your mind about a decision. Choice still matters, but you don't have to worry as much about regretting a decision you made, because you can reasonably change it (Where you can modify merit points, that is). You'd have to put LESS work into changing things around vs not doing this at all, because without these changes, you'd have to go spend a few hours or whatever getting all the merits back.

You don't have +12 to every single stat, maxed out every skill, maxed out every Others and maxed out every WS all at once. You only have the ones you chose, you simply have the ability to change them without having to completely undo a fair bit of work. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that you can have all stats and all skill stats etc. all completely maxed simultaneously. That's not balanced, especially since it benefits certain jobs more than others, even if you ignore the fact that encounters weren't tuned for us having all the extra 70+ stat points.

You make that face like "Wow, he's stupid." but you really didn't look at the whole picture.

Well most of the people here would have you believe that those few stat mod percentage points and the bit of extra damage they offer are critical and essential to winning anything when they really aren't.

SE has basically made their decision about how the merit point system works. They're going to raise the limits when they plan to raise them and neither I nor anyone here is likely to get what they want. In the end this isn't the terrible disaster of a situation that people are making it out to be.

You're arguing semantics. In your scenario, I still go to every event with the max stats for the job I'm on. The only difference is that in my scenario, I have to merit them all or choose which ones not to merit. In yours, You just have to have enough merits to move around.

Yours actually makes customization less likely. I have other stuff to spend merit points on. I'm probably not going to merit CHR or MND right away. But, If I can just swap out my strength and DEX merits whenever I wanna play bard, well.. I'll always have em.

My way... My bard will probably not have CHR merits for a very long time because I'd rather spend them on things like armor upgrade fights. Customization yo. My bard will be mad unique.

And I just want to merit all the weapon skills. Not sure how this turned into "merit all the things...".

I honestly don't care how I end up getting all my stuff merited. As long as it happens. If you would prefer that I have to move a bunch of merits around every time I job change rather than just meriting them all, well that's annoying yet better than the current setup.

detlef

06-25-2014, 03:20 AM

Wait, so in either scenario are we saying that two players on the same job will bring the exact same optimal merits to the event?

FrankReynolds

06-25-2014, 03:22 AM

Wait, so in either scenario are we saying that two players on the same job will bring the exact same optimal merits to the event?

Yes, Unless they are too lazy to swap them and / or Alhan's scenario makes swapping them a pain in the arse.

Demonjustin

06-25-2014, 06:15 AM

I mentioned how this favors certain jobs more than others-This is because certain jobs can use more of the WS. The heavy melees, which can use a number of different weapons and the skills for them, benefit notably more from an uncapping than light melee/ranged/support/mages. The latter jobs might only ever use one or two of the WS, so they gain less advantage out of such a change versus say warrior or DRK. (as an aside, this general discrepanacy is one of the things that annoyed me about voidwatch- something that was intended to include more jobs failed to do so). I suppose you can argue that this is more a flaw in the combat system itself than the merit system, however uncapping merits would certainly not help that situation.I say again, name me a situation in which any job needs more than 3 of those WSs. I'm not saying that they can use them, but that they would use them. Neither VW nor any other event in this game would you see any DD job use more than 3 of these WSs in any event that I can possibly think of. At most I can come up with 3 needed for an event and that's only if SAM can use Req, which I don't think they can, in which case they might need Apex, Req, and Shoha. In either case I still present you the challenge of naming a situation in which a player would use more than 3 of these WSs without being able to return to their room. Name one, and you'll have some ground to stand on with that part of your argument, till then you've none.

They most indeed do provide customization. It's not my fault if a lot of people copy eachother and ignore it. In some cases it's SE's fault for not balancing the different merit options well- Something I would agree they should address if they want these categories to serve their intended purpose. That said, you still don't have 100% of all people picking the same Job merit combinations.Ok, perhaps I should've been more clear. There are good choices, ok choices, and terrible choices. Most jobs have 2~3 good, 1~2 ok, and 1~2 terrible. There are hardly any jobs where it's truly a hard choice of what to pick to merit for a job. You can continue to argue semantics of there being customization and us simply ignoring it in favor of not sucking and talk about how they should improve the choices not remove them but really it's just a pointless argument. The system isn't a good one, and you're saying they should create multiple powerful abilities for jobs with the complete intention of locking half of them behind merits for 'customization' reasons, sorry but that's stupid when so many jobs are already unbalanced and it'd only make it harder to make up for those differences.

Alhanelem

06-25-2014, 08:26 AM

There are good choices, ok choices, and terrible choices. Most jobs have 2~3 good, 1~2 ok, and 1~2 terrible. I really don't disagree with you, but that's a defect of the particular bonuses/abilities, not of the merit system as a whole.

Demonjustin

06-25-2014, 09:14 AM

I really don't disagree with you, but that's a defect of the particular bonuses/abilities, not of the merit system as a whole.Well, provided we have boiled this argument down to this, I think we're at the dead end. You don't mind the system as it is in a customization type of idea and I'm the opposite and see it as a horrible idea. My job is one of those which currently have the most difficult of choices with spells such as Paralyze II and Slow II as well as Dia III all being in my merits. I wouldn't budge on this part of the issue no matter how long we continued it as it simply wouldn't matter to me how much you change other jobs or not since my categories wouldn't likely change. That said, I understand you want to keep that same system we have now with alterations that would leave almost nothing intact of a customization type of system outside of this itself, which means you'd not budge on this issue either most likely.

In the end continuing this debate with you on the topic would lead to circles and no real result probably so I think it best to leave it at this one final thing.

Making it so we can cap every combat skill and magic skill won't change anything from your idea, and will be just what many of us are asking for, so do that at very least as well as Other. If it must be done, leave STR/DEX/VIT capped as well as job specifics, I'll hate it personally but it's progress more so than we have now so I'll take it. It's ground on what we want, works with what you're saying you'd prefer, and hurts no one at all in doing so.