Revocation and replacement of item level system

[Jerbob]

The implementation of the item level system was certainly one of the more controversial changes for XI in recent years, and with good reason. It's a hack - that much is clearly apparent. While the decision to increase the level cap with the introduction of Seekers of Adoulin was not necessarily a bad one, the implementation of that level cap increase demonstrably is. To that end, I would like to see it replaced with a much more stable system that avoids the plethora of pitfalls that we have to deal with in the current state of XI.

The primary problem with the item level system is that it can never be flexible enough to work in a game like XI. We have too many stats, jobs and ways of playing for a restrictive set of item levels to cover all the bases. As it stands, item levels are (debatably) able to cope with the basics of levelling up - the damage taken and dished out. The item level system spectacularly fails when it comes to jobs that don't work on this paradigm, like support or pet jobs. The main issue is that, throughout the game's history, for gear, higher level has not always been better, and this remains the case.

Unless all item level equipment is automatically boosted to the maximum level as it is introduced, there will be a lot of jobs with a lot of equipment slots that work best with equipment that is not at the item level cap. For example, my best Fast Cast body piece options as WHM are the Anhur Robe and Marduk's Jubbah +1. If I want to cast quickly those are the best, but if I want to be properly protected I can't use them, because they doesn't have the item level nonsense to protect me. Nor do they give me level appropriate magic accuracy, or anything else of that nature. Job-specific or unusual/unique effects are even more difficult to replicate.

There's also the problem with non-offensive skills being shafted. How can I make Elemental Siphon scale to match my new item level MP pool? I can't - the "magic accuracy skill" hack doesn't help me with my summoning magic. How can my barspells keep up with the greater magic accuracy of monsters? They can't - Enhancing Magic is still capped at level 99 values.

The issue of taking damage is a really significant one. A "full level 119" set of gear is absolutely not the best for a lot of tasks, particularly for support and pet jobs, but if those jobs want to perform well they have to take the risk of being one-shot by the most mundane of attacks or crippled by enfeebles they should be resisting. That's not a problem with the job, or the player, or the battlefield - that's a problem with the item level system. You just have to look at the Eminent sets of level 117 gear - atrocious stuff for support jobs to use full time.

SE has tried to help fix issues by upgrading AF and Relic to give all jobs a job-appropriate set of item level gear. While that's admirable, it's also a bandage covering a decapitation. Full AF and relic were not good things to use back when they were the latest thing, and they still aren't for a lot of jobs. It's better, but it's covering up the problem. Even when SE "try" with stuff like Sifahir Slacks they get it wrong.

SE has said that they cannot increase our normal levels beyond 99 for technical reasons, which is fair enough. However, we already have a system for character progression beyond the level cap - merit points - and I believe that increasing the level cap through merits is a much more sensible and effective solution than item levels. To that end, I propose the following addition to merit points:

1. Addition of a new merit point section "Level Up" for each individual job, with a single "Level Up" category in which merits may be spent.
2. A system by which the cap for this "Level Up" category can be increased by participating in what was formerly "item level content", including Records of Eminence and reives for newer players.
3. The removal of the item level system.

The difference between a job-specific merit based approach and an equipment-based approach is that jobs can be specifically catered for. There would be no need to worry about using formerly "low item level" gear, or effective pre-Adoulin gear, because the level you earned would be guaranteed regardless of equipment. Non-offensive magical skills can scale properly, and jobs with niche stats like support jobs can keep using the rare (or even singular) gear that enhances their capabilities. Tying the system to item level content isn't really necessary, but it would require the smallest paradigm shift from SE's current setup.

I do understand and appreciate that people have grown to tolerate the item level system over time, and that a change of this nature would be an upheaval to those people. The transition would have to be made as easy as possible, probably with an allowance for people already with former item level equipment to automatically unlock these merit categories. However, a well-managed transition to merit-based levels would be a much firmer foundation for the game to move forward from, and would not marginalise jobs that already have restricted equipment options.

Thanks for reading!

[Divaud]

As someone who has played on and off since release and I just came back with a fresh start character, i have to agree with you.

To me it's not so much that we've become too powerful etc, it's that our "power" comes directly from gear. And while gear has always played a big part in FFXI the fact that once I hit 99 I can put on gear that essentially "adds" 15-20 levels is a bit... cheesy?

And by that i am referring to the lack of actual earned progression. Sure you have to earn sparks to buy the 117 gear then the items for 119 AF but that isn't character progression as i've come to know it. My character isn't stronger, it's the gear.

I didn't earn exp and dump into merits to progress my character, i basically just "bought" new gear that makes me 15-20 levels stronger in an instant.

I'm curious why they didnt just expand the merits system further or make the job point system a little more impactful instead of using this very odd item level system.

Unfortunately for them to scrap the item level system would be asking a lot because it would be throwing out a ton of content and devoted time.

However, with that said it's not like they haven't done that already with many things. There isnt a whole lot of incentive for me to go through stuff like abyssea, or campaign because everything is easily surpassable by SoA stuff.

Sure i'd miss some stuff but again when I hit 99 I put on my ilvl gear and it made me far more powerful than 60 merits did or any items i would gain by doing older content.

tldr; i agree with OP there has to be a better way to balance things and go back to a form of actual character progression to match new content, not just gear that gets equipped.

[Jerbob]

I don't think they'd have to remove any content. From what SE have said earlier in the addition of item levels, everything is calculated on equipment using a formula. They just have to reverse that formula to arrive at the "true stats" on a piece of equipment, without the item level correction nonsense. They would effectively be doing the opposite of what they did right at the start of Adoulin when they "revamped" the Orvail etc. sets with the item level stat vomit. That's why I think reversing item levels is actually fairly realistic - no content needs to be removed, and the "true stats" of items are easily calculated. Once the merits are in place, everything is back to normal, minus the issues that item levels present.

Thanks for the support!

[Alhanelem]

all I can say is good luck with that. considering

1) the time and effort players have already spent, a vast majority of them would not be happy if that was undone in any way. How else could you fix it? You'd either have to take people's items away or nerf the crap out of them. Odds are many people's current gear would suddenly probably not be their best option.

2)the time and effort SE spent developing it. They're not about to remove it or anything else for that matter. No content in the history of the game has ever been removed.

they don't need to remove it, however the buck does need to stop here, that is, it should not ever increase beyond what we have now, and they should horizontally develop some new situational benefit items and items with other stat configurations to give players the range of choices they used to have before the system was implemented. The hardcore FFXI fanbase loves their horizontal growth. On a personal level I don't care for it so much because it creates an inventory management nightmare, however I also appriciate the benefits, where you get more choice and variety and less power creep.

[Jerbob]

Valid points
I do understand that players would be narked to find their most powerful item nerfed. I would be as well. However, I don't think it'll be as bad as it appears. First of all, people with 119 equipment should automatically be granted the appropriate merits to "auto-level" to 119 just by presenting their weapon/gear to an NPC. They've earned their "levels", so they should carry over in a new system. Secondly, the player using the equipment won't suddenly become less powerful when things change - it is merely that the equipment is doing less of the work compared to the character. It'll also potentially open up new options for people to follow, which could potentially make characters even stronger because they're not having to use suboptimal gear just because of the item level label.

The only thing that would need to change here would be the item levels on the items themselves, plus a few references in text around the game (eg. BCs). Everything else - content included - could stay the same. The fact that merit points exist, and the capacity to increase skills, attributes and so on already exists, reduces the amount of work SE needs to do. I do recognise that SE rarely, if ever change their mind, but if people make enough of a fuss they might listen. They did for the big payment scandal a few years ago, and I hope that they will now. Yes, it's unlikely, but that's never a reason not to try, and I think a lot of good could come of it.

And yes, please, we don't need to increase the cap further. Fully agree there.

[SickOfYou]

If this could be counted as some sort of petition to remove iLVL gear from the game and replace it with an actual cap increase or merit point expansion, I'd very much like to put my name here.

[Olor]

I generally support this, though I doubt it will happen.

If it doesn't happen though, SE needs to let us upgrade more equipment to ilevel. Preferably at least 117 so our choices aren't "get one shot" and "wear hideous sparks gear that has no job specific/role specific boosts"

Frankly I'm ticked off that sparks gear was made to be a higher item level than so many better sets that took more effort to obtain. I'm also ticked off that SE has done such a terrible job at ensuring all jobs scale equally and have proper gear to wear. Take my BRD. The best overall set for it, hands down, is still AF3. Out of all of the items I mainly use for it only 2 or 3 are ilevel. None of the sparks gear has anything useful for bard on it. None of the bayld gear has stats useful to the core purpose of bard. For crikes sake, I'm often sporting a level 72 shirt so that my songs don't take 10 ages to cast. In the olden days without stat vomit, that wasn't such a big deal. Now I am one-shot bait. And lol @ relic and AF - in bard's case the majority of it is completely pointless. It's like SE doesn't even know what stats a bard is looking for. Yeah -PDT is nice, but it's not going to be the first thing I'm seeking for.

I know the reality - and it's this - there is no way the devs are going to be able to provide enough situational gear to replace all the gear we have been using for years, in some cases more than a decade. The result is, jobs with non-standard needs get totally shafted by ilevel. This has been entirely clear with pets. Frankly these jobs have always had a hard time, it took a decade for the array of gear choices we have to get put together - and now using that gear is a huge disadvantage mechanically, and we have nothing with ilevel to replace it.

Also I just can't express enough how much I hate my pet spawning being based on ilevel. I'd much prefer we get more gear with affinity on it, and then be able to remove it after spawning to use whatever weapon we want without dropping the HP of our pet.

[Alhanelem]

Also I just can't express enough how much I hate my pet spawning being based on ilevel. I'd much prefer we get more gear with affinity on it, and then be able to remove it after spawning to use whatever weapon we want without dropping the HP of our pet. Wait, the game checks this constantly? you have to keep your pet level item (be it the -caller or animator or your weapon or whatever) equipped at all times? For PUP it makes sense because the animator does more than just set your pet's level but for the others, not so much.

[Kensagaku]

Yes, for BST you have to keep a level 119 axe in your main hand. If you change your mainhand weapon, your pet's level changes accordingly, both directions. Fortunately we have a slew of 119 mainhands, so it's not as crippling as it could be.

[Rubeus]

What you're basically referring to in D&D terms would be Character Level vs what we're currently using, which is Class Level. I like this idea primarily because if I really were lvl 119, I would also continue to garner support job spells and functions. I forget where I read it, but when FFXI was in the development phase in Japan it was suggested that the level cap actually eventually reach 255 (which keeps with Enix's crazy RPGs wholeheartedly). Honestly, if they added a third type of point acquisition specifically for high-tier mission battlefields, achievements, or "end-game bosses" and called it character points, I'd be delighted. Their long-standing reason for not raising our maximum level has been that the on-screen display can't handle it, but we know that the game's data is capable of supporting it.

It could even show up as little +1's on your character, maybe underneath where the game's read-out identifies support job. But SE seems to think this would be catastrophically game-breaking and/or unfair -- a sentiment they alone seem to believe, as the entire player base already knows that if all merit categories were completely uncapped for jobs and stats, and you had all your +1 reforged AF/Relic and your +2 empyrean, you're looking at, what... -40 seconds of recast on a 15 minute ability for any given job, amounting to 1 pDif of accuracy/attack/evasion/etc for merited magic and combat skills?

Let's also not forget the magic accuracy testing done by the BLM community during the TOAU days, when exact values were hypothesized for the qiqirn in Alzadaal for the "sleep>nuke>sleep" method. I myself leveled BLM way back then, and it was common knowledge that if your M.Acc and skill didn't reach, what was it.. 650? That your resist rate would go through the roof. Now here we are with iLvl gear that supports direct magic accuracy and evasion but doesn't provide you with any of the other pDif benefits of being that level. In fairness, I understand that they've stated Adoulin's 104+ mobs won't be subject to as harsh a pDif penalty, but they haven't stated exactly what that reduction implies.

[Jerbob]

The pet levelling issue is a particular irritation to me. I have an absurd sachet superglued to my ammo slot for everything now, and I'm afraid the BP reduction II effect dumped onto it isn't a huge consolation seeing as it could easily be put elsewhere, or on a macroable piece of ammo. I've also just discovered that I'm not going to be able to do Salvage II as SMN because my avatars are locked at level 99 for a significant proportion of it. Spectacular.

It's these little failures that leak through all over the place that help to highlight that the system really doesn't work properly.


... I would also continue to garner support job spells and functions ...
While benefits like this from a proper levelling system would be really nice, I would honestly just settle for a replica of the current environment in merit point form. I am worried that if we ask for too much then SE will start spouting the usual balance issue excuses rather than properly considering the problem. In many ways I do like your suggestion of attaching the progression to content and battlefields, but we have to be wary in case the "merit levels" become inaccessible to new players. Easy stuff like Records of Eminence should be a perfectly functional route to gain merit levels if indeed the system does rely on content, otherwise we'll end up with a "level divide" among players even worse that the item level divide we have now.

I'd really like an official response on this, as unlikely as it may be, so please keep liking / discussing! And apologies if I'm being a little terse, the Salvage issue has made me pretty ratty today.

[Alhanelem]

Yes, for BST you have to keep a level 119 axe in your main hand. If you change your mainhand weapon, your pet's level changes accordingly, both directions. Fortunately we have a slew of 119 mainhands, so it's not as crippling as it could be.
well that's fine honestly. You don't normally swap your weapons in combat due to loss of TP.

[Damane]

we have now pushed through ilvl, why change back, yes it has some minor flaws here and there, but nothing grave. Going back now would be worse.

Your Barspell argument kinda fails, because it was allready caped at lvl 99 with 500 enhancing magic skill, besides ilvl gear gets m.eva and m.def stats. and barspells still work great.

[Jerbob]

we have now pushed through ilvl, why change back, yes it has some minor flaws here and there, but nothing grave. Going back now would be worse.

Your Barspell argument kinda fails, because it was allready caped at lvl 99 with 500 enhancing magic skill, besides ilvl gear gets m.eva and m.def stats. and barspells still work great.
I genuinely think going back would be much better. I'm not sure what possible negative consequences reverting back could have. Having levels locked into your character, either traditionally or through merits, avoids lots of the issues that the item levels bring. Yeah, item levels work for the basics - I've never claimed that they don't - but that's really not good enough.

Yes, barspells were capped at 99, and while it wasn't very "future-proof" to hard cap them it didn't really matter unless the monsters we faced got massively stronger. Now we've item levelled up with the appropriate magic evasion/defence on our gear to represent those levels, but from 1-99 the barspells would grow in potency as we levelled as well as our innate resistance. Unless the magic evasion/defence on gear includes that which we would have gained from levelled barspell bonuses, which I highly doubt, then barspell protection is remaining static at level 99 potency. And if they've put some kind of hack in with item levels that compensates for this... well, it's just another hack that tries to stabilise the system. I'm not a fan of bandages on top of amputations.

I do understand what you are saying. It would be significant in terms of work and hastle to implement a replacement for item levels. Patching up the holes that item levels bring, however, I think is worth it, and we've then got a much better foundation in-game with which to move forward.

[Mirage]

I too would prefer that iLvl disappeared, but if that never happens, never again touching the current max iLvl cap while continuing to add new gear might eventually make things work themselves out.

[predatory]

Well we've had item level stuff for a year now, and it's totally changed the game. I don't like the system simply because I hate having my gear outdated as fast as I can get the items and get them upgraded, but I do like the content, and I don't want SE to go back and revamp everything about Adoulin, and that's exactly what they would have to do. I like the idea of expanding our merit categories, and I hope they use that route, along with job points to make our characters stronger in the future because those are semi-permanent increases to our stats and abilities rather than the temporary ones we get from gear, and with a few added categories here and there we could make our characters strong enough, (with our current ilevel 119 gear) to match any future content SE put out.

My vote is don't mess with the system, don't raise item levels any higher, just give us more merit and job point categories and let us use more merit points per category

[Rubeus]

And when the next expansion raises the ilvl to 150 and then they have to go through and revamp relic/mythic/empyrean weapons again and AF/relic/empyrean gear again and more players quit the game again, will you then change your mind about undoing the damage that has been done? Removing the stat-vomit off of our current gear lineup would make it infinitely easier to read, and there is no downside to raising our actual levels. None. There IS a definitive downside to keeping things as they are -- right now, my BLU has to use mavi tayt +2 in order to maximize blue magic skill and therefore have the highest chance of learning WKR spells. This severely limits both my survivability and my accuracy, -mostly- because of the stat vomit. Not because the defense value is weaker, not because the gear is worse. Simply because of the stat vomit.

Reflect on that while they wrap up seekers and if you're around for the next expansion (and Adoulin's got an airship dock. Think about that.) I'll still be around to tell you I told you so.

edit: not trying to sound condescending. Simply food for thought; there's myriad continents we haven't explored yet and if they do continue to support the game into the future, ilevels will eventually stop cutting it. Maybe they're working on changing the level interface right now for all we know, but I seem to remember them saying "Aegis and Gjallarhorn would be ~180 if they had ilvls already." This does not bode well for the future of the game.

[Mirage]

next expansion

nope, sorry

[predatory]

And when the next expansion raises the ilvl to 150 and then they have to go through and revamp relic/mythic/empyrean weapons again and AF/relic/empyrean gear again and more players quit the game again, will you then change your mind about undoing the damage that has been done? Removing the stat-vomit off of our current gear lineup would make it infinitely easier to read, and there is no downside to raising our actual levels. None. There IS a definitive downside to keeping things as they are -- right now, my BLU has to use mavi tayt +2 in order to maximize blue magic skill and therefore have the highest chance of learning WKR spells. This severely limits both my survivability and my accuracy, -mostly- because of the stat vomit. Not because the defense value is weaker, not because the gear is worse. Simply because of the stat vomit.

Reflect on that while they wrap up seekers and if you're around for the next expansion (and Adoulin's got an airship dock. Think about that.) I'll still be around to tell you I told you so.

edit: not trying to sound condescending. Simply food for thought; there's myriad continents we haven't explored yet and if they do continue to support the game into the future, ilevels will eventually stop cutting it. Maybe they're working on changing the level interface right now for all we know, but I seem to remember them saying "Aegis and Gjallarhorn would be ~180 if they had ilvls already." This does not bode well for the future of the game.

God I love scanners, look for keywords and miss the true meaning behind what's written

[Louispv]

well that's fine honestly. You don't normally swap your weapons in combat due to loss of TP.

Yes but that also means we can't use any of the good axes. The pet damage taken- axes for instance drop your pet down to level 99. SMN and PUP can still use their staves and H2H though. Or the Hunahpu which as absolutely necessary for your pet to ever hit anything because it has pet acc+ on it, is level 115, so either lose 4 pet levels, or offhand it at all times, crippling your own stats by making your offhand 4 levels below your mainhand. (On top of your offhand always being about 3 levels behind your mainhand because SEs till thinks Dual wield is overpowered for some reason.) Plus this locks you into /NIN and no other acceptable subjob, since SE in their infinite wisdom decided BST should be the only job in the game without Dual Wield or a two handed weapon. So Fencer will never have even the tiny use it used to have when you were /WAR.

The whole Item level thing just has too many problems. They still haven't even fixed them all. It would have been much better if they just added Merit category 3 to each job, that cost 10,11, 12 continuing merits in that vein. Have each one increase the stats appropriate to your job by that of a level, and all your skills equivalent to your level, and your pets' stats equivalent to a level. (Which we know they can do, since that's what satchets/animators do.) 10 merits, you're level 100, 11 more merits, you're level 101, 12 more merits, you're level 102 and maybe get a new Job ability or spell in with this one! No R/E/M upgrading nonsense, no comepletly worthless gear because next month they add higher item levels tuff, no dropping 12 levels and taking double damage because your ws gear is a lower level than your melee gear, no having encumbrance drop you back to level 99, No having to reforge... everything, no need to rebalance every damned thing around stats double what they were planned to be, all the problems go away!

Plus that way, you can't jump from 99-119 on every single job at once by just getting the gear on your BRD. You'd actually need to level each one, and SE would get more monthly bills out of us while we did it.

[Malithar]

(On top of your offhand always being about 3 levels behind your mainhand because SEs till thinks Dual wield is overpowered for some reason.)

What are you trying to refer to here?

Whole ilvl debate is a lost cause for both sides, love it, hate it, whatever, either play the game or don't. SE voted to go this route, and for better or worse, it is what it is. Was a rough start no doubt. Was extra silly having half the weapons have 119 options for a long time, while the others had 117s at best. Hell, it was beyond silly having the the current ilvl cap available one month after SoA came out. Skirmish aug wiping fiasco, RME rage, etc. It's been rough, but after a year of it, it's not so bad at this point.

[Demonjustin]

There IS a definitive downside to keeping things as they are -- right now, my BLU has to use mavi tayt +2 in order to maximize blue magic skill and therefore have the highest chance of learning WKR spells. This severely limits both my survivability and my accuracy, -mostly- because of the stat vomit. Not because the defense value is weaker, not because the gear is worse. Simply because of the stat vomit.You picked a bad example. You could literally just swap to your BLU skill gear at the end of the fight so far as I know and you'd get the same benefit as you would fighting from start to finish in that gear so staying in it full time would really be meaningless no matter if they did this or not.



That out of the way. I doubt we will see another expansion any time soon especially one with such mistakes as the item level system was. There was a level of complaints spawned from that system and other changes Adoulin made in terms of pacing that is unmatched by anything in recent history of this game outside of possibly VW's drop rates. I can't see them making this same mistake again so easily, in fact, I'd say the team as of late has been much quicker to learn from mistakes they make and incorporate fixes or workarounds to those issues. We've seen a lot of situational gear, we've seen the Reforged gear sets all be meaningful in some way with hardly any pieces falling through the cracks, every update seems to bring something to the table and hardly ever do they make drastic errors such as a lack of reason to do a piece of content. While they're not perfect, they've fixed a lot of things and been getting better with their design of things in this game over the last year in my opinion, so to think they'd go back and keep progressing with item levels even though it was quite possibly one of the(if not the) single worst received features in the game's history is just insane. I won't say it's impossible, I'd never rule something like that out with this game, but I really don't think it'll happen again after the response we saw upon it's initial release.

At this point it's also somewhat unrealistic to ask for it to be undone because of the amount of gear it's already effected as well as systems implemented that are based off of it such as Trust, Adventuring Fellows, pets, and so on. Another thing is that some of the current pieces would become sort of worse for losing their stat vomit and thus lose their appeal, making some pieces that were sought after much less valuable and angering players who 'wasted their time' getting them. I'm one such person as one example comes to mind, Umuthi Gloves currently beat out my Buremte Gloves in every way basically but when you look at them while ignoring the stat vomit the Umuthi Gloves hold little value. Getting a pair of Augmented Gloves from Skirmish with 4% PDT is a cakewalk and their DEF would have been 1~2 lower. In the end removing it at this point is sadly a bad idea. I honestly hate that it is, I don't like the system and I think overall it's terrible it was ever put in, problems with things like Trust and pets do stem from these issues especially for pieces of gear that aren't 119 but are still optimal which drag our average levels down, and thus weaken those things. Sadly, we're stuck with it, and changing it now could create more issues than it'd solve in the long run besides the fact it'd slow down updates for a few months while they go back and change it all which could also cause people to once more get bored.

All in all, I'd like to see it go, but it's not going to happen, and I think now that it's here it would be more problematic for it to be removed in favor of merits raising our levels even if I do like the idea more than what we've got now.

[Alhanelem]

Yes but that also means we can't use any of the good axes.A problem easily solved by introducing more ilvl axes. I'll agree that PUP/SMN have the better dal on this one though.

[Jerbob]

To be honest quite a lot (though certainly not all) issues with item levels could be solved by a massive injection of item level capped gear for all occasions, but for that to work then SE must never increase the cap again, or we'll just run into exactly the same problem each and every time. This is also assuming that SE is capable of designing new capped gear appropriately, which I'm not sure I trust to be the case, and is willing to release it in sufficient quantities, which again I don't think we can rely on. It also ignores the myriad other issues with item levels that can't be solved with just pushing the system harder. To sort out all of the issues, it must be replaced with something more stable.

At the risk of repeating myself for some of the naysayers, I think we can all acknowledge that SE don't like admitting mistakes and rectifying them by moving backwards, but there's no reason why people can't express their dissatisfaction with the current system. If enough people lend support or give rational points that disfavour item levels, then SE may listen - even if that chance is slim. The mechanisms for implementing merit levels are already at least in part in place in the form of our existing traditional merits, and item level stats are all calculated mathematically - they can be easily reversed. No content needs to be altered. It's not a big of a task as it first appears!

I will admit that there are problems intrinsic in items that are only "good" because they outlevel other items of a similar type. There's no way to "fix" these items once stat vomit is removed - they will be worse than alternatives. However, it's always been the case that some gear is better than other gear, even newly released - it will certainly require a period of adjustment for players, but the foundation that is created as a consequence will be much more stable for forward movement.

There's also no reason why gear couldn't have a level requirement above 99. I'm not sure if this would be a positive or negative thing overall, but it's something to consider.

[Olor]

Yes, for BST you have to keep a level 119 axe in your main hand. If you change your mainhand weapon, your pet's level changes accordingly, both directions. Fortunately we have a slew of 119 mainhands, so it's not as crippling as it could be.

Unfortunately many of us don't have access to these... and not all of the good axes (Hunahpu is the axe I like to grind) have max ilevel.... which is stupid.

There is a solution for BST which doesn't ruin the playstyle we used for years - and that is have pet levels determined by BST affinity only and give us more gear with affinity on it. Also, no more dynamic scaling of my pet stats, it's seriously irritating.

[Rubicant82]

Unfortunately many of us don't have access to these... and not all of the good axes (Hunahpu is the axe I like to grind) have max ilevel.... which is stupid.

How do you not have access to them?
Unless you are a "I will only play BST and nothing else no matter what" you most likely have another job that can go to delve.
Delve is a 6 man event now, and it is incredible easy if your group has it down for your play style. Yes I know pick up delves can still be a pain ... oh do I know that all too well, but I digress, Right now you can get beads from the log in campaign that when used (if not used in actual delve to remove NMs) give you 1500+ plasm* These beads come from the field NMs so even if you do not have a delve party/static you can still get the beads, and as long as you have gotten the win once, you can buy the axes you want with Plasm*. Now back to the scenario where you only play BST and nothing else ... well then that is a choice you made. I personally have made relics for a job I don't enjoy playing so I can get what I want for the jobs I love to play. Sometimes to get what you want (item) you have to make sacrifices (play jobs you don't like) or ultimately do without.

[Olor]

My LS has not been able to clear them yet. Some members have, with pick ups, but I personally don't usually do content like that with pickups, especially on support jobs (which is all I have fit to use in this content) because if anything goes wrong I inevitably get yelled at, and it's stressful and I don't play games to not have fun.

The 119 skirmish axe is something somewhat more within reach (have the +1 already) but no one ever shouts for Raz skirmish anymore and my LS mates hate it, and given that I don't know the event well enough yet, I don't really feel comfortable leading it.

At any rate, it still doesn't solve the problem that the best axe for the situation isn't always 119... yet we get seriously punished if we try to use anything else. Anyway please show me a 119 axe with the accuracy and haste of Hunapu? Cause I don't think there is one. For some stupid reason SE decided the 119 version should remove all that desperately needed Accuracy and 1% of the haste: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Izizoeksi

[Malithar]

Some members have, with pick ups, but I personally don't usually do content like that with pickups, especially on support jobs (which is all I have fit to use in this content) because if anything goes wrong I inevitably get yelled at, and it's stressful and I don't play games to not have fun.

Content like what? 6 man groups? Progression? I can understand the "not familiar with skirmish so I don't want to lead" bit, sure, though I'd look into finding a friend/LS mate/complete stranger who'd lead if you provided the entry KI. But to simply say you don't usually pug current content thats 6 mannable simply because of the "stress" of running with bads, or not being up to par on said support jobs, is just a cop out for not being able to obtain the gear.

You also left out the AA MR axe, JSE axe, and the 119 plasm axe from something in Marjami. All of which more than serve their purpose of a main hand 119 and are easily acquired. See you mention the bit about the 115 having better pet stats often. If that's the case, what's so wrong with off handing it? I can't remember the last time I saw someone on Bst that wasn't /Dnc.

[Olor]

Content like what? 6 man groups? Progression? I can understand the "not familiar with skirmish so I don't want to lead" bit, sure, though I'd look into finding a friend/LS mate/complete stranger who'd lead if you provided the entry KI. But to simply say you don't usually pug current content thats 6 mannable simply because of the "stress" of running with bads, or not being up to par on said support jobs, is just a cop out for not being able to obtain the gear.

You also left out the AA MR axe, JSE axe, and the 119 plasm axe from something in Marjami. All of which more than serve their purpose of a main hand 119 and are easily acquired. See you mention the bit about the 115 having better pet stats often. If that's the case, what's so wrong with off handing it? I can't remember the last time I saw someone on Bst that wasn't /Dnc.


I've been working on the content with my LS mates, sorry just not interested in going with pickups (have tried 2X, wasn't fun don't want to do it) - I mean I might if I am in the perfect mood and I have all night to do it etc, but no, generally that's not fun and I don't play games to not have fun. I PUG tons of content but Delve is not fun with PUGs.

As for "what's wrong with off-handing it" - I dunno do you offhand level 115 weapons while trying to DD? No? Well then you tell me why it sucks to offhand something with significantly less accuracy etc.

Fact is they suck at giving real levels to the items. Hunahpu is a fantastic axe, has exactly the stats I want for my pet and it's trapped at 115. This is what sucks about ilevel. In olde FFXI the only penalty I'd suffer for an axe like this is maybe it has a lower base damage or higher delay. Now it causes me serious accuracy issues as well. Its fine for lol Abyssea or w/e but for real content it's a drag.

[Malithar]

As for "what's wrong with off-handing it" - I dunno do you offhand level 115 weapons while trying to DD? No? Well then you tell me why it sucks to offhand something with significantly less accuracy etc.

Fact is they suck at giving real levels to the items. Hunahpu is a fantastic axe, has exactly the stats I want for my pet and it's trapped at 115. This is what sucks about ilevel. In olde FFXI the only penalty I'd suffer for an axe like this is maybe it has a lower base damage or higher delay. Now it causes me serious accuracy issues as well. Its fine for lol Abyssea or w/e but for real content it's a drag.

What real content is it such a drag in? By your own posts, Bst isn't useful in any BCs, Delve, Skirmish, etc. So what real content are you doing that A: your pet needs acc and haste, B: you're DDing yourself, and C: the loss of acc in your offhand (which isn't even much of a loss at all, as you state not having access to a 119, let alone 2) is causing you serious accuracy issues?

As for if I offhand 115s when trying to DD, no. If DDing is your goal, then why are you so hung up on what the axe provides the pet? If you're doing content where it's best for the Bst to stand outside and send the pet in, have at it with whatever axe is best for the situation. Exact same applies to if you are DDing, use what's best for that.

[Rubeus]

@Predatory: How was my post in any way directed solely at you? I could say the same about scanners; I like the idea of continually raising merit categories and job points, but let's face it: it took SE a little over a year after Adoulin came out to implement job points, and a year and 3 months to raise the merit caps. Meanwhile, Kumhau and his associated Delve version has been out since March, an exact year since Seekers. So we suffered with Yumcax and Hurkan and as I recall most of Adoulin in general for a YEAR before they BEGAN to "address the problem." And you're trusting them to never ever raise the ilevel ever again and continue a non-gear-driven progression paradigm? When it took them til December -- 9 months after the launch -- to introduce Eminent gear for people who weren't interested in doing Delve and following the update paths for Skirmish (which, in fairness, were replaced every update with new skirmishes, which is a well-known fact.)

I could find out for you when they revamped relics and mythics, if you'd like.

@DemonJustin: I think in terms of the Buremte Gloves example you gave, you're missing a crucial element of the "remove the stat-vomit" argument. I'll use the thief's Assassin +2 set as an example: the gloves have CHR +7, acc +9, eva +9, and enmity +5 on them. There's no reason why if you removed the stat vomit, those stats shouldn't still exist on the Plunderer's set, or even be further enhanced -- so armor like the Buremte Gloves would still find usage even without the "fluff" of stat vomit. I'm not asking for all the ilvl gear not to provide +stats, I'm asking for them to provide the +stats they'd have if they didn't have enough cover-up on them to make a Maybelline commercial. I've seen you on the forums a lot and you've always been a crusader for the RDM cause, so you of all people should appreciate the need for the removal of ilvls. Chatoyant staff for example would be worth using again if your natural magic accuracy and damage met the demands of current content, and you'd get the added benefit of affinity.

As far as your faith in the development team goes in "learning from their mistakes," I do agree with you that they do seem to have gotten better about it. But SE's mantra is and has been "your stuff isn't always going to be the best!" -- and having ilvl119 until seekers wraps up (which will hopefully include empyrean equipment additions) isn't the same as saying "the system can't go beyond these values to a higher ilvl." At this point they've laid the brickwork for ilvl3,000,000 if they so choose to, so what's to stop them? Our whining? Hasn't worked so far; I refer you to pretty much every summoner asking for cait sith for 3 years and your very own RDM threads.

In general:
Also, there's been no definitive testing on BLU as far as wearing learning/skill gear before death vs wearing it as the ability is used, and I don't even know how you'd test that, but I'm not going to derail the conversation into that. But your BST analogy is flawed -- my ilvl119 bst still can't even solo an yggrette NM, much less anything of value. Allakazham has a wonderful thread about the stat scaling for iLvls and thorough testing has been done; the average pet only receives something like 47 HP per ilvl, and about ~3 per stat. That's pitiful when compared against a player, even if you're wearing all the pet gear and -DT in the world. See also "some food works on pets, but you'll need items not readily available for acc/atk bonuses that don't really compete with content."

[Louispv]

Also, there's been no definitive testing on BLU as far as wearing learning/skill gear before death vs wearing it as the ability is used, and I don't even know how you'd test that, but I'm not going to derail the conversation into that.

Yes there has. Nothing affects learning blue magic except the "Increases chance to learn Blue Magic" on AF hands. The only way Blue Magic Skill+ helps you learn a spell is if your blue magic skill is lower than the level required to learn the spell. (I.E. It's a level 75 spell and you have the skill level of a level 62 BLU) This hasn't been a problem since 99, since every spell has been a level 99 spell or below. Unless you still haven't capped your blue magic skill for some reason.

You should be complaining that Blue magic doesn't scale properly with Ilevel in exactly the same way pets do, since they "fixed" it by just sticking a multiplier on it based on main hand item level, the same way they did for BST pets. A multiplier that is far too small and underpowered because other jobs get the full benefits of gear, abilities, and buffs that blue magic doesn't get, which have only gotten stronger as item level goes up. Exactly like pets, and anything else that isn't strictly player ATT vs enemy DEF.

[Olor]

What real content is it such a drag in? By your own posts, Bst isn't useful in any BCs, Delve, Skirmish, etc. So what real content are you doing that A: your pet needs acc and haste, B: you're DDing yourself, and C: the loss of acc in your offhand (which isn't even much of a loss at all, as you state not having access to a 119, let alone 2) is causing you serious accuracy issues?

As for if I offhand 115s when trying to DD, no. If DDing is your goal, then why are you so hung up on what the axe provides the pet? If you're doing content where it's best for the Bst to stand outside and send the pet in, have at it with whatever axe is best for the situation. Exact same applies to if you are DDing, use what's best for that.

So your response is "Don't play BST" very helpful. I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been advocating for fixes so BST CAN BE USED IN ILEVEL CONTENT. Saying "who cares if this is broken you wouldn't be a DD anyway" just proves my point. It's stuff like the only +Pet ACC weapon being level 115 that MAKES BST NOT USEFUL. This is part of the problem. Pets should have stats NATURALLY that are good enough to compete in modern content. I shouldn't even need Hunahpu. That Hunahpu is also 115 and locked there is just an additional slap in the face.

Way to miss the point.

Also I don't have a 119 yet, but I will at some point, (working on JSE weapon) and even the loss of 2 item levels is a HUGE and NOTICEABLE difference. I also shouldn't have to ignore my pet DD output in order to have decent DD output from me. I need both to be an acceptable DD - hence why BST is not invited to events - because we are expected to gimp one half of our damage or the other to play.

[Olor]

Funny enough, after I posted about not wanting to PUG delve, a friend of a friend was looking for a bard for Tojil so I decided to give it a shot and got the win.

Thanks for the "encouragement" (aka ridicule) folks.

[Demonjustin]

@DemonJustin: I think in terms of the Buremte Gloves example you gave, you're missing a crucial element of the "remove the stat-vomit" argument. I'll use the thief's Assassin +2 set as an example: the gloves have CHR +7, acc +9, eva +9, and enmity +5 on them. There's no reason why if you removed the stat vomit, those stats shouldn't still exist on the Plunderer's set, or even be further enhanced -- so armor like the Buremte Gloves would still find usage even without the "fluff" of stat vomit. I'm not asking for all the ilvl gear not to provide +stats, I'm asking for them to provide the +stats they'd have if they didn't have enough cover-up on them to make a Maybelline commercial. I've seen you on the forums a lot and you've always been a crusader for the RDM cause, so you of all people should appreciate the need for the removal of ilvls. Chatoyant staff for example would be worth using again if your natural magic accuracy and damage met the demands of current content, and you'd get the added benefit of affinity.There's a side to that you're not seeing. Buremte and Umuthi give us +stats for a Light DD piece, stats we don't get from normal mage pieces. This follows with items like Lithelimb and Karmesin Vest. If you take the stats off these then RDM's stats will likely go down. I understand what you're saying and the easiest way to look at it is that with every item level if you compare a piece to other pieces that have the same jobs they almost always have the same stats, an example would be...
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/d/d5/Atrophy_Tabard_%2B1_description.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/5/57/26809_description.png
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/d/db/27877_description.png
from these pieces we can assume that by default at 119 a RDM likely gains 54 HP 59 MP 21 STR/DEX/VIT/AGI, 29 MND/INT/CHR, 41 EVA, 80 MEVA, and 6MDB.

This changes however when you look at this body...
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/2/23/27861_description.png
for RDM these stats are outside of the norm. That said, for other job on this body the stats really aren't, they're something you might see on a THF's gear. So you couldn't change this body to give -MND/INT with +STR/DEX without THFs ending up with a different outcome on what should be gained or lost most likely. That means one job is probably going to get the short end of the stick here, and since it's a melee piece, it's probably RDM. Comparing it to other gear only works so long as the pieces you're comparing them to are all for the same jobs, pieces like these would likely end up worse for some jobs like I was saying. Though admittedly I think it's somewhat a confusing comparison to make in the end.


As far as your faith in the development team goes in "learning from their mistakes," I do agree with you that they do seem to have gotten better about it. But SE's mantra is and has been "your stuff isn't always going to be the best!" -- and having ilvl119 until seekers wraps up (which will hopefully include empyrean equipment additions) isn't the same as saying "the system can't go beyond these values to a higher ilvl." At this point they've laid the brickwork for ilvl3,000,000 if they so choose to, so what's to stop them? Our whining? Hasn't worked so far; I refer you to pretty much every summoner asking for cait sith for 3 years and your very own RDM threads.While you are correct, there's a key difference. The difference being that we've made an impact on this front and the fact this is a much larger scale. The scaling was going much quicker before and we complained a ton, we also complained about RME weapons going out of date, and we did actually influence change on both aspects. RMEs were brought back and the progression speed when it comes to item levels was slowed down if not halted. The scale is another important one and in my opinion the key one. Changes to RDM and SMN will only change 2 jobs, 2 jobs which they likely think are unpopular due to the few people who play them these days(even if it's due to the job's being weak, caused by their lack of updates, which is a cycle). A change to item levels is something that impacts the entire game as a whole, not a single job but every single job and as such they can't make that change unless the players agree to some extent. With SMN or RDM if they don't do anything then sure people will be upset but there are other jobs to play and chances are people will play them. If they change item levels it's an entirely different story.

[Rubeus]

If I were willing to agree that the top 3 body pieces favor MND/INT/CHR and the bottom piece favors STR/DEX/VIT, you're ignoring that your RDM would already be ~+21 to all stats, and so would the thief. Left without the stat fluff, the top 3 pieces would then have INT+11, MND+11, CHR +7. Assuming your HP/MP values also would rise with these changes, that leaves the bottom piece with HP+5 and no MP bonus, being the bottom of the bunch. But that's just the body piece; what about your head/hands/legs/feet? If you take the combined stats of all 5 pieces as a norm and combine them and then apply that to what the job should have, along with the relevant amount of MDB and EVA/MACC/MEVA, you're left with just the extra MACC and MAB. The atrophy tabard would therefore have +10 MAB/MACC, 17 enfeebling skill, 3 haste, and 2 refresh. Oh, and obviously its defense. That's still a great body piece. That it has +14 MP is just icing; but that said, the piece would only read "+14 MP, +11 int, +11 mnd, +7 chr, the 10 MACC/MAB, the enfeebling, haste, and refresh." That's still an easier read than the whole thing, and if your job naturally had the combined stats of the 5 armor pieces and the weapon fluff (including what skills should've brought our accuracy and parrying and so on up to at 119)... what I'm saying is, if you took the unnecessary slag off of the weapon slot, can you really tell me it'd beat out a Magian elemental staff?

Put more simply: I don't think THF would get the short stick on the bottom piece if all the slag was removed. Keep in mind that with said THF having, naturally, the "baseline" combination of 5 armor slots at 119, for 6 haste and maybe +3-7 points here or there? I'd rather keep my Sigyn's Cuirie. Does that make more sense? If you think the extra defense makes that much of a difference, go do a salvage on SMN naked vs as SMN in full wayfarer gear. I typically go from maybe ~40 damage to maybe ~16 damage per hit after unlocking all the Pathos. I couldn't care less about the paltry stats if I had the stats of a 119; I'm more concerned with my DPS. As anyone would be in a DD position. 11 str adds, what, 4 attack? 11 dex adds maybe a single % to critical hit rate, of which all the THF reforged deals with anyway?

Take the baseline of 5 slots + weapon at 119 and add them up, and then add that to your base stats and remove them from the gear. Suddenly, all the adoulin gear looks a lot less appetizing.

edit: not to mention GEO, BRD, BST, PUP, DRG, SMN, and certainly a number of other jobs would have the freedom to then use the gear they wanted to use, not ilvl gear for pet stats (which fail terribly. Ask anyone.) and don't take into consideration more +Summoning/geomancy/singing/whatever skill. That's the problem. It isn't just that ilvl is a ghetto way to raise our levels. It's that the systems they've put in place to deal with it are absolute garbage. Nobody's particularly happy with it, and being encumbered shouldn't mean game over.

You're right in that RDM has spells coming up, and the relic/mythic people eventually got their update (with the promise that those weapons won't always be on top, from Matsui himself), and that SMN eventually got cait sith. You're right that it'll affect every job in every way. But so what? You're right that it'll probably take awhile to dig into their spaghetti code to fix the level display function to go beyond 99 and we'd suffer dead updates as a result. But so what? We're already losing people and the people who genuinely like specific jobs are already unhappy. What has the game got to lose by publicly apologizing and fixing it? That's like the PS2 support argument. I bet you if SE actually did the math and decided to kill ps2 support, yes the Japanese audience would suffer for it, but how much money would they stand to gain by updating the graphics and algorithms and register space in ARM code to meet PC standards instead? They'd lose X number of PS2 Japanese customers but in turn gain X number of international PC accounts. It's a no-brainer.

[Olor]

Yeah, I'd be happy to trade the stat vomit for stats that matter, especially for the niche jobs like SMN, BST, PUP, BLU etc that really function best with non-generic gear. The generic gear coming out of the ilevel system is part of the reason why MNK etc is king - they benefit the most from pure stat increases... whereas jobs like BLU that have spells tied to a unique skill that doesn't get any buffs from the generic gear get totally screwed.

Because our gear is supposed to be our levels though they seem to feel like they have to put all the base stats on everything - which (first of all) makes everything look and feel very boring and samey - and second of all, crowds out room for stats that matter (SMN skill, BLU skill, Song cast time -, double attack, triple attack, +dual wield, +fast cast, pet stats etc)

I mean you get like one stat that matters on the high end peices, but most of the 117 gear has zero on it... and the other gear is all stuck at 110 or 115 ... before you had real choices now it feels like you either wear highest ilevel or you get horribly punished. The result is a bunch of gear that feels very boring and a lack of real choice. I mean its just like all the gear is the same just with more or less stat vomit on it. That's how it feels.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Items levels are not an absolute benchmark for indicating equipment strength. There is a lot of equipment that has extremely special properties, and this creates situations where even equipment with lower item levels may be useful depending on the situation and your job. FFXI is a game where you are able to swap out equipment on the spot to better suit the conditions you are faced with and we feel that having equipment such as this is fitting. Item levels serve to express the core stats of weapons and armor and the values also tie-in to pets, adventuring fellows, and alter egos. As such, we do not have any plans to change or remove the item level system at this time.

[Jerbob]

Thanks for the reply Camate.

The difficulty that I have with the item level system is a direct contradiction to what you have passed on to us. Item levels are an absolute benchmark when indicating equipment strength in very important aspects such as defensive capability and bonus attribute values. You have yourself admitted that there are many items with extremely special properties that do not possess the highest level item level. As such, using these special items puts players at a disadvantage in aspects where item level is important. They prevent players being at their maximum possible level. This is unquestionably a defect in the item level system.

Item levels tie into pets, true. Item levels do not tie into pets in ways that function well in all situations. Equipment restrictions in Salvage are a serious problem for summoners and puppetmasters. Finding effective axes that work for master and pet is a problem for beastmasters. Summoning magic skill does not scale. The list goes on. This is not an effective solution.

Almost all players love the fact that we can swap gear. It's an integral part of this game that is a foundation upon which everything else is constructed. Item levels damage that key functionality by restricting what equipment we can use in ways that have no bearing on the actual capabilities of the equipment itself. Item levels do not just express how powerful an item is - they express how powerful we are as players. As long as this aspect of our characters is not innate to the character itself, there will be problems.

Reconsidering this standpoint is really important. Please consider all the factors very carefully before making a judgement to retain this moronic system.

[Genoxd]

Item levels tie into pets, true. Item levels do not tie into pets in ways that function well in all situations. Equipment restrictions in Salvage are a serious problem for summoners and puppetmasters.

I can solo every salvage zone on SMN.

On the first floor (other than bhaf) I can kill any mob in 2 BPs w/o ammo. With ammo I can 1 shot nearly every mob. NMs die in 1-2BPs.

I'm confused, what's the issue with pets in salvage?

[Babekeke]

iLvl gear has it's pros and cons...

Pros:
1)You don't need to grind on every job for another 20 levels (well over 1 million exp per job) to reach 199.
2)You don't need to skill up another 242 levels of skill for A(+) level skills (even the thought of that for summoning magic makes me shudder!).
3)Some weapons with multiple jobs instantly boost all of those jobs by 20 levels and 242 skill. Even with a grind to accomplish getting some of these weapons is better than that grind of all the exp and skilling up.

Cons:
1)Some non-ilvl gear is still not only useful, it's irreplacable. EG. Casting Sentinel's Scherzo in full aoidos' +1 gear will give you the most potent damage reduction that you can get, along with an extra 5 VIT. Sure other pieces can extend that duration, but you lose some of the potency and/or VIT.
2)Using said non-ilvl gear on lvl 119+ content can very easily get you 1-shotted. And that's not fun.

[Alhanelem]

iLvl gear has it's pros and cons...

Pros:
1)You don't need to grind on every job for another 20 levels (well over 1 million exp per job) to reach 199.
2)You don't need to skill up another 242 levels of skill for A(+) level skills (even the thought of that for summoning magic makes me shudder!).
3)Some weapons with multiple jobs instantly boost all of those jobs by 20 levels and 242 skill. Even with a grind to accomplish getting some of these weapons is better than that grind of all the exp and skilling up.

Cons:
1)Some non-ilvl gear is still not only useful, it's irreplacable. EG. Casting Sentinel's Scherzo in full aoidos' +1 gear will give you the most potent damage reduction that you can get, along with an extra 5 VIT. Sure other pieces can extend that duration, but you lose some of the potency and/or VIT.
2)Using said non-ilvl gear on lvl 119+ content can very easily get you 1-shotted. And that's not fun.
I think these considerations may be why ilvl items are limited to certain gear slots, while other gear slots do not have any ilvl stuff (or they don't actually add ilvl-related stats)

[Olor]

Thanks for the reply Camate.

The difficulty that I have with the item level system is a direct contradiction to what you have passed on to us. Item levels are an absolute benchmark when indicating equipment strength in very important aspects such as defensive capability and bonus attribute values. You have yourself admitted that there are many items with extremely special properties that do not possess the highest level item level. As such, using these special items puts players at a disadvantage in aspects where item level is important. They prevent players being at their maximum possible level. This is unquestionably a defect in the item level system.

Item levels tie into pets, true. Item levels do not tie into pets in ways that function well in all situations. Equipment restrictions in Salvage are a serious problem for summoners and puppetmasters. Finding effective axes that work for master and pet is a problem for beastmasters. Summoning magic skill does not scale. The list goes on. This is not an effective solution.

Almost all players love the fact that we can swap gear. It's an integral part of this game that is a foundation upon which everything else is constructed. Item levels damage that key functionality by restricting what equipment we can use in ways that have no bearing on the actual capabilities of the equipment itself. Item levels do not just express how powerful an item is - they express how powerful we are as players. As long as this aspect of our characters is not innate to the character itself, there will be problems.


This. All of this, but especially the bolded. Like I said earlier, I doubt they would even consider removing ilevel - but then they need to change or remove the way ilevel works with pets and specialized skills like blue magic and we DRASTICALLY need to see more older gear upgraded to ilevel or reasonable-to-obtain replacements for those key pieces.

[Xerius]

How it should work is that your ilvl should be solely based on your weapon since you can't swap those out during battle anyway (I mean you can but for most jobs, except maybe mages where it's not that big of a deal anyway, you'll take a huge hit). This would help all the armor help text because it wouldn't have to have all of those obnoxious stats on it and you can just put the bonus stats for the equipment and you wouldn't be penalized for wearing older gear by losing 100+ HP, MP, MND or whatever stat your particular job needs.

[SNK]

So your response is "Don't play BST" very helpful. I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been advocating for fixes so BST CAN BE USED IN ILEVEL CONTENT. Saying "who cares if this is broken you wouldn't be a DD anyway" just proves my point. It's stuff like the only +Pet ACC weapon being level 115 that MAKES BST NOT USEFUL. This is part of the problem. Pets should have stats NATURALLY that are good enough to compete in modern content. I shouldn't even need Hunahpu. That Hunahpu is also 115 and locked there is just an additional slap in the face.

To be fair, I get to use BST in Skirmish III a lot, and I've used it in AA Galka as well. Granted I have a Guttler and I offhand either the new JSE Axe or the Bee Axe depending on the situation but I think you're being too hard on yourself. I like Hunahpu don't get me wrong but it's not like you don't have other options to buff your pet now that the new food helps alot.


Also I don't have a 119 yet, but I will at some point, (working on JSE weapon) and even the loss of 2 item levels is a HUGE and NOTICEABLE difference. I also shouldn't have to ignore my pet DD output in order to have decent DD output from me. I need both to be an acceptable DD - hence why BST is not invited to events - because we are expected to gimp one half of our damage or the other to play.

The general idea of the pet back in the day was them to be a tank and you to support it. Nowadays it's solid jug pets which make BST really easy for a lot of stuff. I know that however having a relic isn't going to get me invited to everything which is why I leveled COR, BRD and WHM for shit where I'll get the gear I want for the job I love. I know you hate the idea of pickups but maybe you should reconsider them if they're being led by people who constantly get wins.

[Rubeus]

The fact that BST has to buy pet food and waste even more inventory space while .. oh you know what, this has been beaten to death in the "stop ignoring pet jobs" thread, I'm not even going to bother. Just go read that thread and come back -- and then we can hear your argument advocating the awesomeness of the ilvl system when clearly this thread is dedicated to its abolition. This dark chapter of FFXI's long and storied history should be removed and forgotten about as soon as humanly possible.

[Demonjustin]

If I were willing to agree that the top 3 body pieces favor MND/INT/CHR and the bottom piece favors STR/DEX/VIT, you're ignoring that your RDM would already be ~+21 to all stats, and so would the thief. Left without the stat fluff, the top 3 pieces would then have INT+11, MND+11, CHR +7. Assuming your HP/MP values also would rise with these changes, that leaves the bottom piece with HP+5 and no MP bonus, being the bottom of the bunch. But that's just the body piece; what about your head/hands/legs/feet? If you take the combined stats of all 5 pieces as a norm and combine them and then apply that to what the job should have, along with the relevant amount of MDB and EVA/MACC/MEVA, you're left with just the extra MACC and MAB. The atrophy tabard would therefore have +10 MAB/MACC, 17 enfeebling skill, 3 haste, and 2 refresh. Oh, and obviously its defense. That's still a great body piece. That it has +14 MP is just icing; but that said, the piece would only read "+14 MP, +11 int, +11 mnd, +7 chr, the 10 MACC/MAB, the enfeebling, haste, and refresh." That's still an easier read than the whole thing, and if your job naturally had the combined stats of the 5 armor pieces and the weapon fluff (including what skills should've brought our accuracy and parrying and so on up to at 119)... what I'm saying is, if you took the unnecessary slag off of the weapon slot, can you really tell me it'd beat out a Magian elemental staff?You still seem to be missing the point though for a lot of this. It's not so simple as stripping the stats off like you suggest. You see, now that you've removed all but that 11 INT/MND and 7 CHR for base stats on the mage pieces guess what? All other mages are getting that + as well. Now when you look at their gear they have different pieces with different stats which might set a higher or lower bar for those stats and that messes everything up. It's done like this because the way it's all designed is the item level stats are meant to simulate the stats that the jobs on the gear would have at that level. The body piece I mentioned is a Light DD body, were SE to remove the stats on it RDM would likely end up with less STR/DEX/so on as a result because the way it's stats scale aren't like that of jobs like THF or NIN. It's much more likely that RDM would only get the +21 to each, which you did say but you don't seem to understand how that hurts RDM either. We'd lose valuable DEX, that's valuable Accuracy especially for RDM which struggles with that stat as it is. In either case I'm apparently failing to explain it properly so I'll just leave it be. I don't think the benefits would outweigh the downfalls in some aspects and I doubt they'd ever do such an update after all this work in the first place, I leave it at that.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah, I'd be happy to trade the stat vomit for stats that matter,As was previously noted, the stat "vomit" you refer to is to adjust the stats of your character to reflect the base stats that he would have if he was actually level 119 (Indisputably, as a level 119 job you would have more CHR at level 119 than at 99 whether you were a beastmaster or a black mage). As such, taking those "vomit" stats away would not mean more of the stats you want- those "vomit" stats only exist to adjust those stats to what they would be if your character was level 119. That is, they're not going to take the CHR away and give you more STR or INT.

You will subsequently notice that there are then some modifications to individual stats. These can be taken to be the actual bonus stats conferred by the item. e.g. say an item has +40 INT and its a 119 item; if they wanted the item to give a +5 bonus, it would say +45 INT- 40 being the base value increase for being level 119 with the extra 5 being a bonus from the gear)

The item level system was created most likely because technical limitations would have made it difficult for them to simply increase the level cap by 20 (of note, the search window would have to be significantly altered to accomodate 3 digit level values). This is also the reason the final level cap was 99 and not 100. Thus, the item level system was really put in in place of increasing the level cap- And increasing the level cap would have caused the same issues- Some older gear would become less useful.

[Jerbob]

I can solo every salvage zone on SMN.
Apologies, I was not very clear. I was talking about Salvage II. If you're talking about Salvage II then apparently I just suck! The original Salvage I have done (and enjoyed) as SMN, but it still stands as an example of why item levels don't work - one slot influences a massive change in power for my job that, by the design of the job, should not be affected.


iLvl gear has it's pros and cons...
Agreed, there are benefits in reduced grinding with item levels. However, I would be happier with a fully functional, extensible system that requires a traditional period of levelling up than a broken system that doesn't. Perhaps just down to personal preference. At any rate, a merit point system can be built to incorporate some of the benefits of item levels as part of its functionality.


I think these considerations may be why ilvl items are limited to certain gear slots, while other gear slots do not have any ilvl stuff (or they don't actually add ilvl-related stats)
The trouble is, a lot of the specialist gear is in the visible armour slots that are all item levelled. I don't think SE considered the importance of specialised equipment at all when concocting item levels, sadly.


The item level system was created most likely because technical limitations would have made it difficult for them to simply increase the level cap by 20 (of note, the search window would have to be significantly altered to accomodate 3 digit level values). This is also the reason the final level cap was 99 and not 100. Thus, the item level system was really put in in place of increasing the level cap- And increasing the level cap would have caused the same issues- Some older gear would become less useful.
This is true to an extent. Some gear is always made obsolete with changes in level cap - it is the nature of the rare spurts of vertical progression that we've had to endure in FFXI. However, the differences in the gear are far less significant with standard level cap increases or differences - for some jobs, even some AF was still useful at level 75, and lots of our level 75 gear remained useful, even just as macro gear, well into the 75>>99 cap increase. No-one worried about using a level 68 Noble's Tunic at level 75, or 80, or 85. Of course, this was predominantly true for mages, as indeed is the case now.

Item levels make this impossible due to the massive increases in gear power that they bring. No mages would dream of gearing for the defence stat on their gear at 75 or 99, but that's precisely what we have to do these days if we don't want to be one shot. It's lunacy.

I think we all accept that there are technical limitations that prevent the game from levelling in the traditional sense. SE have made that clear, and that's fine - they were honest about that, and I can accept it. It is their method of implementation that I take issue with, not necessarily the cap rise itself - that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

[Malithar]

The trouble is, a lot of the specialist gear is in the visible armour slots that are all item levelled. I don't think SE considered the importance of specialised equipment at all when concocting item levels, sadly.

I don't understand where this idea comes from. Is it because ALL of the older "special" gear we used hasn't been converted to the ilvl system yet? We know Empy gear is on the way at some point. Beyond that, there's only a few select special butterfly pieces that I'm sure will be replaced at some point. It takes time, it's a process.

If anything, it might even be an intentional process. Maybe they're testing the waters for future expansion to see just how we gear when we're given the option of massive stat bloated ilvl gear in comparison to the +Blue Magic skill gear mentioned above, or a max Refresh set, or Summoning skill, etc.

Thaumas body is another good example. I know plenty of light armor DDs that rage at not being able to continue using Thaumas effectively in some content due to the liability of it not having the defences of an ilvl body. At least now, they've given those jobs an adequate alternative that is a fair compromise when it comes to offence and the defence given by ilvl gear. It's still interesting to note just how many walk around in it and become more of a hinderance just to gain that additional multi attack.

[Rubeus]

@Demonjustin: I understand where you're coming from. I do. It's not that I don't. But you're STILL neglecting the whole picture in regards to RDM. Here, I'll do the work for you to prove my point:
pillager/plunderer total +dex: +140

atrophy/vitivation total +dex: +96

hume male base dex on thf/dnc: 97

hume male base dex on rdm/dnc: 89

total difference in dex between a 119 rdm and a 119 thf, visible armor only: 52.

RDM dex in such a case if it were lvl 119 and not ghetto 119: 185

you're telling me that with +96 dex as a NATURAL state before any gear is considered at a REAL 119, your RDM has something to complain about in terms of accuracy/crit? I challenge you to find 1 mob in the game that isn't -real- content (in which RDM should probably be casting and supporting its party as opposed to meleeing) whereupon your dexterity score is going to be the deciding factor between the 1 hit or crit that would've killed said mob vs total defeat for you and/or your group. I would say Einherjar, as that's the only highly-time-limited event in which I can imagine a RDM meleeing being a crucial aspect of defeating all the mobs, but at 99 you're already at capped pdif anyway.

But you're not just saying dex. you're saying all stats. You're getting at the whole ball of wax, and I understand that. It's not that I don't understand that. It's that you don't see (to me) that if your character were wearing an Ark Scythe and Stumbling Sandals and nothing else, you'd still be at 185 dex. And presumably somewhere near 200 on all your other stats, and your pdif would be a non-issue for accuracy/evasion/all those other sprinkled stats involving magic and doing stuff.

No offense, and I have a very high degree of respect for you, but that sounds a lot like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. "But I'm still missing 52 dex over thief. :\" well yeah dude. It's thief. They kind of need it more than you do. 185 isn't high enough for you? ALL your stats being 185+ aren't high enough for you? I'm staring at my RDM/DNC right now and his lowest stat is VIT at 84, so presumably you'd be in the ballpark of 170 VIT at 119 naked. But you'd also have Rapture, Ebullience, and a third strategem charge at the much more useful RDM/SCH combo. I mean, me personally? I'd even be willing to take the same exact VIT I have right now just to be able to do that. That's practically a divine seal and a diffused amplification every other minute.

Yes, it's only +21 to all stats -- for the body piece -- but, and I hate to KEEP repeating myself: so what? Go find me some serious content that can be solo'd or in which YOUR stat differential makes all the difference and tell me that 185-ish to any stat isn't enough. At that rate, why don't we just petition for primeval brews to be a non-temp item? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

People are advocating for the ilvl system with this REALLY slipshod logic. "well, it's not like the bst axes are -THAT- big a deal or -THAT- hard to get." "well, I'd lose X stat that I really wouldn't have in spades if it weren't for ilvl." "well, I'd have to grind a bunch of xp to level up all my jobs."... so you want to keep a system that's butchering the game because it isn't -super- inconvenient? Is it that easy to pacify most players?

Maybe I'm the only one who really sat there and got my first 119 piece by grinding the rem's tales. That's got to be the reason. Clearly, you don't seem to understand exactly what "grinding xp" is all about until you've done that. Go do me a favor and grind yourself exactly 1 piece of Artifact 119 from it's non-109 level and then come back on this thread and tell me exactly how long that took you. Now go do it for 4 other pieces or suck it up and do the SKCNMs and the ark angels. Now do that for 22 jobs.

Ilvl is terrible. How many ways do you need it explained to you and in how many languages?

[Rubeus]

@malithar: that's a lot like saying "we know you busted your rear for this nocturnus set that has a base 5% to convert damage on top of the shadow set and -DT set and makes you a better paladin on the whole, but because it doesnt have ilvl stats, we've introduced fiat lux hard mode that you'll never get to do because nobody does enough campaign even with Trust NPCs and ilvl gear as it is. Please go bust your rear some more for a chance to get Nocturnus+1 at ilvl105 in a ilvl119+ battlefield so you can toss your old nocturnus stuff and keep this nocturnus stuff because we didn't have the foresight to make your actual stats compensate."

Replace nocturnus and fiat lux with practically any "butterfly" piece in the game and its acquisition method and you have the current situation. We have every right to be upset. Our gear didn't suddenly become crap overnight. It took stat vomit to make it suck overnight, and nothing else. Any given page of this thread will attest that none of the adoulin gear has any "butterfly" capabilities, just what we should already have at our level.

Yes, I get that gear gets replaced. Yes, I get that every expansion does its job to replace it. But if you as a company come to me and say "we'd really like it if you paid us 12.95 a month and we'd also really like it if you'd pay anywhere from 9.99 to 29.99 for this upcoming expansion we're gonna do which is a skeleton of what it will eventually be as we continue to work on it. That's cool, right?" Then by god, you'd better incentivize me continuing to fork over my dollar bills, because I didn't just bust my rear in the last expansion for ALL my gear to be pointless.

Take a look at relic (NOT reforged relic! JUST RELIC!) Relic was released in, what, Zilart or Promathia? I can still remember when NOBODY had assassin's armlets; you had to be part of a hardcore LS that did dynamis (and not many did!) AND have enough "points" to be able to lot it, AND pray to Altana it dropped. But that didn't make your other gear worthless. Lets use BST as an example:
I spent a week killing Dragonscaled Bugaal Ja for beast bazubands. A week. For the ONLY gloves that, at the time, affected pets. THE ONLY GLOVES.
I spent a month getting all the Monster gear in Dynamis so my BST could call pets and Reward them and not be terrible at it.
I spent a week getting all my BST AF for Charm and Tame and Killer Traits and all that jazz.
I spent another month getting through ASA, AMK, and ACP so I could have -10DT and Haste for my pet and have a reduced Call Beast timer and some pet double attack.
I spent a month getting all my Ferine gear to +2 so that I could have better stout servant, spur, reward, some more pet stats for ear/back/neck, etc.
I spent another month getting the oneiros cappa and moepapa stone and Armada Sollerets augmented (since they're the only boots).
I spent another month getting pet -PDT and +MDB axes in trial of the magians.
So 5 months and 2 weeks at 12.95 a month and you would now like me to grind until my fingers bleed for reforged gear and a 119 axe that effectively doesn't do anything WHILE also telling me that ALL my other gear would make me get 1-shotted.

"butterfly pieces" my foot. You're absolutely right in that I believe I deserve to be able to use what I've worked for. No other expansion eradicated the necessity of any of my other pieces that I've worked for. Not one. To say that I didn't work hard enough for it is arrogant beyond reproach in the first place.

[Demonjustin]

@Demonjustin: I understand where you're coming from. I do. It's not that I don't. But you're STILL neglecting the whole picture in regards to RDM. Here, I'll do the work for you to prove my point:
pillager/plunderer total +dex: +140

atrophy/vitivation total +dex: +96

hume male base dex on thf/dnc: 97

hume male base dex on rdm/dnc: 89

total difference in dex between a 119 rdm and a 119 thf, visible armor only: 52.

RDM dex in such a case if it were lvl 119 and not ghetto 119: 185

you're telling me that with +96 dex as a NATURAL state before any gear is considered at a REAL 119, your RDM has something to complain about in terms of accuracy/crit? I challenge you to find 1 mob in the game that isn't -real- content (in which RDM should probably be casting and supporting its party as opposed to meleeing) whereupon your dexterity score is going to be the deciding factor between the 1 hit or crit that would've killed said mob vs total defeat for you and/or your group. I would say Einherjar, as that's the only highly-time-limited event in which I can imagine a RDM meleeing being a crucial aspect of defeating all the mobs, but at 99 you're already at capped pdif anyway.

But you're not just saying dex. you're saying all stats. You're getting at the whole ball of wax, and I understand that. It's not that I don't understand that. It's that you don't see (to me) that if your character were wearing an Ark Scythe and Stumbling Sandals and nothing else, you'd still be at 185 dex. And presumably somewhere near 200 on all your other stats, and your pdif would be a non-issue for accuracy/evasion/all those other sprinkled stats involving magic and doing stuff.

No offense, and I have a very high degree of respect for you, but that sounds a lot like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. "But I'm still missing 52 dex over thief. :\" well yeah dude. It's thief. They kind of need it more than you do. 185 isn't high enough for you? ALL your stats being 185+ aren't high enough for you? I'm staring at my RDM/DNC right now and his lowest stat is VIT at 84, so presumably you'd be in the ballpark of 170 VIT at 119 naked. But you'd also have Rapture, Ebullience, and a third strategem charge at the much more useful RDM/SCH combo. I mean, me personally? I'd even be willing to take the same exact VIT I have right now just to be able to do that. That's practically a divine seal and a diffused amplification every other minute.

Yes, it's only +21 to all stats -- for the body piece -- but, and I hate to KEEP repeating myself: so what? Go find me some serious content that can be solo'd or in which YOUR stat differential makes all the difference and tell me that 185-ish to any stat isn't enough. At that rate, why don't we just petition for primeval brews to be a non-temp item? Because that's what it sounds like to me.Well to answer the question of serious content, I quite honestly melee in high end content. I do 119 Delves and Difficult Merit Point NM battles on my RDM with /NIN. The one I have the most experience with is Gessho due to a friend of mine trying desperately for the head piece for his NIN and Gessho is no push over. His EVA is quite high and in my full Accuracy TP set I only cap accuracy with Composure, Gain-DEX, Sushi+1, and Madrigals. While I admit I'm the exception to the rule in this fact since you'd have a hard time finding any other RDM who probably even enters Difficult MPNMs let alone melees in them as a DD, losing some of these stats would truly hurt my ability to participate in the content. I understand where you're coming from but in the end it would hurt the job, 52 DEX for instance is a massive loss to me, that's around 39 Accuracy I believe that I'd lose in the process. Mind you I'm stacking a ton of Accuracy as it is that's not easy at all to make up for. The other thing to look at is the defensive stats which I know the same arguments apply to, that RDM is a RDM not a THF and thus doesn't need the same kinda EVA or DEF they'd get, but it does hurt the job. Right now my gear I use for TPing for instance is 55 over my Atrophy/Vitivation gives, normally not much but even in old content this can matter for RDM since our EVA is really low to begin with, even in this gear I don't cap EVA rate on the pathetic 110 Delve NMs.

I'm not saying it's the most important thing in the world, but it would hurt me if they did this change.



As for the subjob thing... while yes some subjobs would become more powerful potentially such as /SCH getting extra strats and charges(as well as Stona!) I really don't think they'd do that for us anyways. I think they'd more quickly go with the merit leveling idea(one which I like by the way though it'd much more likely be Job Points), if they did that though it'd remove the chance of getting extra subjob abilities and such since our stats would only increase via Merits/JPs rather than a true level up. In either case, it's a nice thought but I doubt if they did remove item level that we'd get that too as a result.




People are advocating for the ilvl system with this REALLY slipshod logic. "well, it's not like the bst axes are -THAT- big a deal or -THAT- hard to get." "well, I'd lose X stat that I really wouldn't have in spades if it weren't for ilvl." "well, I'd have to grind a bunch of xp to level up all my jobs."... so you want to keep a system that's butchering the game because it isn't -super- inconvenient? Is it that easy to pacify most players?

Maybe I'm the only one who really sat there and got my first 119 piece by grinding the rem's tales. That's got to be the reason. Clearly, you don't seem to understand exactly what "grinding xp" is all about until you've done that. Go do me a favor and grind yourself exactly 1 piece of Artifact 119 from it's non-109 level and then come back on this thread and tell me exactly how long that took you. Now go do it for 4 other pieces or suck it up and do the SKCNMs and the ark angels. Now do that for 22 jobs.While I won't say it's exactly fair, this character I'm using to post actually has gotten quite a few chapters with sparks, it's all I use his sparks for, so that I don't have to do 109 or 119 fights on him till he's ready for it. I don't think it's fair to use him as an example though since his sparks are all from leveling and are really more of a side thing than intentionally farming for them. That said, I have farmed sparks before with the intent of getting 119 armor. No it wasn't all from that and not even close to doing it for all 22 jobs, but BLM can quite easily farm sparks honestly just by repeating the kill multiple mobs and 500+ DMG ones. I do get your point though, and I admit they are flaws to the system.


Ilvl is terrible. How many ways do you need it explained to you and in how many languages?I agree it's terrible in many respects, but they are trying to fix it up, and there would be damage done to the game, jobs, pieces of gear, and player's time spent on gear were it removed. I'm not saying I necessarily want to keep it, but I won't lie and say if they removed it tomorrow part of me wouldn't be angry that they did. Part of me wants it to stay, part of me wants it to go, I honestly do think at this time that keeping it does less harm though.

[Rubeus]

... your atrophy/vivation ALREADY is 52 dex shy of what THF gets. Your argument doesn't make sense. And if the gear you were using did have any +DEX on it, you could make up that 52 dex without having to sacrifice a whole bunch of other stats that vitivation/atrophy gives. You can tapdance around it all you like, but if your RDM had the INT/MND/CHR that atrophy/vitivation gets without actually having to wear atrophy/vitivation+1 sets, you could feel free to wear +accuracy and +dex sets with a greater degree of freedom. You're still missing the forest for the trees. Again, I really do have the highest respect for your opinion, but if your argument has holes in it, people like me are going to hole-punch them. This is one such case.

Removing it now might do more harm in the short term, but you really feel that the long-term would suffer for it? How? If anything, we'd be stronger. Your gear choices rise exponentially with the removal of ilvl in favor of actual levels, in ANY form. merit levels, actual levels, I couldn't really care less. Anything would be better than this.

What about people who don't have BLM? What if you only have, say, Dancer. How does a person who only has DNC farm sparks effectively? You can't even break 500 damage except on weaponskills. That's fair? I have a Maat's Cap, so, I couldn't really care less personally. But if your job can't do it, then -you- can't do it without spending time getting a job that can. That amounts to time spent leveling some job you can't gear properly without a ton of effort that you don't really care about (spells aren't cheap, I'll remind you) in order to get the job you DO care about to top shape. Hardly fair.

edit: DNC is the go-to for Dynamis currency farming (for obvious reasons) so assuming your end-goal is to have a relic to get you into the invites to the top-tier events, DNC would be the job to do. Assuming you realize that before leveling anything else and therefore monopolize on your kill/time ratio, it behooves you to increase your survivability and DD performance. Doing so on just DNC is nigh impossible though. I have a THF mule, and in 24 hours of farming she -might- get 20k sparks. Maybe. Sometimes. That's with trying to stack RoE goals to everything possible in Ceizak (including drops) and killing the Mandragoras until they become an endangered species. Your argument is that I should spend 200k+ in gil and 3 days in Bostanieux Oubliette getting her to BLM 99 so I can swarm my way through Abyssea-Vunkerl's Helter-Skelter until I can farm 50k in 6 hours so I can do this 4 times to get a single piece of 109?

Sounds awesome. I'll get right on that.

[Vold]

we do not have any plans to change or remove the item level system at this time. Hmmm. Looking at your position amongst the NA community team, wouldn't you be considered...the leader? Perhaps, the "admiral" of the bunch? Curious, because: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZu-gOeBF8s

[Rubeus]

I could not explain it any more thoroughly than I already have. I haven't heard 1 good argument supporting it, and Camate has already said they don't have plans to change it, which is a nice way of saying "get over it." So that said, I believe I'm done beating this dead horse -- we already have enough Animal Glue here to make an alchemist rich. Maybe if I unsubscribe for a few months, they'll put a few more band-aids on our decapitation and this'll be within tolerable limits again.

Jerbob, I wish you the very best of luck fighting the uphill struggle that is "their vision" of FFXI versus what the players have asked for since the crystal war and beyond. At this point, I'm convinced the developers use keyboards made of traverser stones -- for how else do you explain the Atomos-like vacuum of our pleas for a better game, other than the Avatar of Time himself replacing all our cries for fairness with .gifs of cats chasing laser pointers?

[Genoxd]

Apologies, I was not very clear. I was talking about Salvage II. If you're talking about Salvage II then apparently I just suck!


I was talking about Salvage II. Salvage I is level 75 content.....it's a total joke and I could probably do it with just perpetuation gear and no ilevel stuff at 99...

Edit: To be clear. Last time I did Salvage level 75 version I killed the bosses in 2 blood pacts. All but two NMs died in 1 BP.

[Demonjustin]

... your atrophy/vivation ALREADY is 52 dex shy of what THF gets. Your argument doesn't make sense. And if the gear you were using did have any +DEX on it, you could make up that 52 dex without having to sacrifice a whole bunch of other stats that vitivation/atrophy gives. You can tapdance around it all you like, but if your RDM had the INT/MND/CHR that atrophy/vitivation gets without actually having to wear atrophy/vitivation+1 sets, you could feel free to wear +accuracy and +dex sets with a greater degree of freedom. You're still missing the forest for the trees. Again, I really do have the highest respect for your opinion, but if your argument has holes in it, people like me are going to hole-punch them. This is one such case.See this is why I think there's a miscommunication here. If you take off the extra stats from the gear you have to determine how much of it is from the stats itself and how much is from the assumed stats of the jobs at that level for the jobs that can use it. Comparing my current TP set(Lithelimb/Karmesin/Umuthi/Osmium/Battlecast) to what seems to be a RDM's 119 stats(Atrophy/Vitivation) base stats I'd lose roughly 22 DEX.

Looking at head pieces it seems like most have 20+ DEX on them in higher item levels when it comes to a job like THF, Lithelimb has 20 DEX, this means Lithelimb would probably end up without any DEX & RDM would lose 6 DEX as a result. This doesn't open up other options as this is the highest Accuracy head piece for RDM anyways and is our only 8% Haste piece for head besides Zelus. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not a matter of what our Atrophy/Vitivation is lacking, I know it's melee stats aren't high, that's why I wouldn't ever use it for meleeing. The point is that the light DD gear we have been getting has been giving us a lot of stats we'd otherwise not have because SE likely wouldn't balance it around RDM's stats and instead would base it off of a job like THF. As a result RDM would end up with the short end of the stick, losing stats from the light DD gear we've been getting that has made it so nice for the job.

I admit, maybe I'm just seeing things here where there are none, but to me it makes perfect sense. They'd likely look at the jobs on it, see it as a light DD piece, and then remove stats from it that the majority of light DDs already have whilst leaving little on it of the sort. This would result in jobs like RDM who are put on these pieces even though they don't necessarily fit the common paradigm of the other jobs listed on the piece without those same stats, as a result the stats of the job would go down.


Removing it now might do more harm in the short term, but you really feel that the long-term would suffer for it? How? If anything, we'd be stronger. Your gear choices rise exponentially with the removal of ilvl in favor of actual levels, in ANY form. merit levels, actual levels, I couldn't really care less. Anything would be better than this.In the case of some jobs yes, I admit this would be true, for instance Thaumas Coat would become much more viable again as a result of such a change. For RDM, I can't really remember anything I used to use I'd want to use again. The only item that might stand out really is Kudzu Aketon, it's the only piece I'd remain in long enough for it to matter to me what it's level was. I use some old 99 pieces for things like Fast Cast or Enhancing but nothing long enough it truly would benefit me one way or the other if this change happened.

The main reason I don't even like item levels is the fact that it makes the Trust system suck in a lot of ways for me since I have to melee to use them at level 119. This is really part of why I'd be mixed either way though. If it's left as it is I still see some issues popping up with item level that wouldn't have happened if it were never even done and I do think it was always an issue to begin with. That said I also have changed how I play the game quite a bit, I've dropped some old gear, I've come to realise the benefits of it such as light DD gear benefiting my job more, and the fact that in a way item levels really don't impact the overall game that much for me anymore, at least not in a negative way that's nearly as noteable as before.

I won't lie and say my want for it to stay isn't entirely selfish, it is. My entire basis for why I'd want it to stay is because it does actually benefit RDM from my point of view and thus the removal of it would actually damage my job. At this point however I really don't feel like I'm even arguing for keeping or removing it so much as trying to explain my point of view on how I think it hurts RDM so that unless I'm seeing things it's clear that while it'll help some jobs, it's possible some jobs will also be hurt.


What about people who don't have BLM? What if you only have, say, Dancer. How does a person who only has DNC farm sparks effectively? You can't even break 500 damage except on weaponskills. That's fair? I have a Maat's Cap, so, I couldn't really care less personally. But if your job can't do it, then -you- can't do it without spending time getting a job that can. That amounts to time spent leveling some job you can't gear properly without a ton of effort that you don't really care about (spells aren't cheap, I'll remind you) in order to get the job you DO care about to top shape. Hardly fair.

edit: DNC is the go-to for Dynamis currency farming (for obvious reasons) so assuming your end-goal is to have a relic to get you into the invites to the top-tier events, DNC would be the job to do. Assuming you realize that before leveling anything else and therefore monopolize on your kill/time ratio, it behooves you to increase your survivability and DD performance. Doing so on just DNC is nigh impossible though. I have a THF mule, and in 24 hours of farming she -might- get 20k sparks. Maybe. Sometimes. That's with trying to stack RoE goals to everything possible in Ceizak (including drops) and killing the Mandragoras until they become an endangered species. Your argument is that I should spend 200k+ in gil and 3 days in Bostanieux Oubliette getting her to BLM 99 so I can swarm my way through Abyssea-Vunkerl's Helter-Skelter until I can farm 50k in 6 hours so I can do this 4 times to get a single piece of 109?Well no. I admit I didn't really address that outside of a very anecdotal answer consisting between the 'mule' this account uses and the way I farmed sparks for my GF's chapters.

My real answer in all honesty would be to pick up some of the Bayld/Sparks 117 gear and trade in seals for SKCs, do them on Very Easy or Easy solo and farm them that way. Between the Login Campaign points and general farming done whilst leveling & so on you can easily amass enough points to get them. I won't say soloing AAs is exactly the easiest thing in the game but it's also doable if you try on some jobs.

In the end I'll say it does suck having to upgrade these to get to 119 gear but I'm also somewhat amiss at your point in it all. The 119 gear for each job would likely be scaled down to 99 gear with similar stats but without the stat spam all the same and would become just as valuable to the job. You could say this is a way of leveling them up to 119 in a sense but then it's really just another form of grinding with you already said shouldn't be as much an issue to get rid of item levels in the first place when you addressed the whole idea of pros/cons on the system and one of the pros being you don't have to grind levels again.

Really though the last 2 parts of this post are more or less just answering because I didn't want to feel like I wasn't replying to all of your post. The original bit about RDM was really the only thing I intended to reply to so if you want to ignore this bit then please do as it's not something I really feel to strongly about.

[Malithar]

So 5 months and 2 weeks at 12.95 a month and you would now like me to grind until my fingers bleed for reforged gear and a 119 axe that effectively doesn't do anything WHILE also telling me that ALL my other gear would make me get 1-shotted.

"butterfly pieces" my foot. You're absolutely right in that I believe I deserve to be able to use what I've worked for. No other expansion eradicated the necessity of any of my other pieces that I've worked for. Not one. To say that I didn't work hard enough for it is arrogant beyond reproach in the first place.

Just quoting that, the rest of the drivel is par for the course it seems with you. Have you thought about focusing your attention on single player games that never advance forward in any degree or anything? It's as if you expect everything you ever worked for to remain relevant because you worked sooooo hard for it that it some how validates your entire argument. If you had talked about, idk, Ebody augments, or Legion +1 gear, or camping Niddy for years to get your Ridill back in the day, or anything that actually involved any meaningful amount of time or investment, I'd agree, say that's too bad, the game is moving forward, and leave it at that. But you're bringing up relic armor? Empy gear? Gtfo. No one has claimed anyone hasn't worked for what they have. But this is an MMO. Guess what you have to do in an MMO to remain relevant as time goes by?

What's even more asinine is most of the stuff you mentioned in that very post is still relevant! Cool, you got your AF, relic, and Empy, that's one less incredibly time devouring task of terribleness that you have to worry about.

Cancel like you said, one less person demanding handouts in the form of 0 gear progression at least.

[predatory]

I got pissed off and took a 5 month break over the whole Ilevel thing, but then I came back, and when I did I leveled brd on my current char, and now I look forward to doing delve so I can get that Item level gear for my jobs. A better system would have been to let us level through merits granted, but I can't even imagine how much I would hate spending 304958094358043985 years in aby just straight meriting to get all the buffs I get from my various pieces of gear, the only way it would even be feasible to match my various pieces of gear would be if the unlocked the entire merit system and raised the cap from current levels to at least 50.

I have gear for my different jobs that would require me meriting chr, int, mnd, str, dex, vit, weapon levels, accuracy, hp, mp, I'm talking the full gamut, and I hate, I mean I really hate meriting, I always have. I hope they leave the cap at 119, and I hope they open more merits and categories over time, (this coming update shows they have a willingness to do that0, there is no way at this point I want to go back to the old system, just no

[Rubeus]

Just quoting that, the rest of the drivel is par for the course it seems with you. Have you thought about focusing your attention on single player games that never advance forward in any degree or anything? It's as if you expect everything you ever worked for to remain relevant because you worked sooooo hard for it that it some how validates your entire argument. If you had talked about, idk, Ebody augments, or Legion +1 gear, or camping Niddy for years to get your Ridill back in the day, or anything that actually involved any meaningful amount of time or investment, I'd agree, say that's too bad, the game is moving forward, and leave it at that. But you're bringing up relic armor? Empy gear? Gtfo. No one has claimed anyone hasn't worked for what they have. But this is an MMO. Guess what you have to do in an MMO to remain relevant as time goes by?

What's even more asinine is most of the stuff you mentioned in that very post is still relevant! Cool, you got your AF, relic, and Empy, that's one less incredibly time devouring task of terribleness that you have to worry about.

Cancel like you said, one less person demanding handouts in the form of 0 gear progression at least.

I mentioned probably closer to 20 pieces of gear, and right around 330 pieces of gear for RME -alone-. BST would get 1-shotted and when that happens, your pet dies.

So while a lot of the RME is still relevant and it's steadily risen from +1 to +2 to reforged to +1, and I'm pretty genuinely fine with that, albeit they could've made it a lot less tedious, the vast majority of "butterfly gear" hasn't been touched. Which is what I said to begin with. For the record, I do know what its like to camp an HNM for years, as my first 75 back in the day was Bard and that's basically all you get invited to do as Bard (back then, Bards weren't invited for Missions or serious battlefields. FYI.)

I'm fine with gear progression. Gear progression does not mean slapping haste and defense on a bronze harness and asking me to be happy about it. I also said "unsubbing for a while" not "omg im uninstalling 4evr!!1!"

[Malithar]

For the record, I do know what its like to camp an HNM for years, as my first 75 back in the day was Bard and that's basically all you get invited to do as Bard (back then, Bards weren't invited for Missions or serious battlefields. FYI.)

That's about all I saw in between the childish antics. It's cool, I'm sure if you keep up your QQing and attacking other posters, splashed in with your "you just don't understand my point of view!" and "I've seen no legitimate argument in favor of ilvl!", SE will change the ilvl system just for you.

[Rubeus]

Sorry, I forgot only you can attack other posters. As you have shown to do with Olor as well. Clearly the other people in this thread are just egregories of myself, so I'm sure you're right. I'm the only one affected by ilvl, so they'll change it just for me.

Do you always pick and choose which pieces of an argument to respond to and then act pompous or am I just your favorite? Last time I checked, I had the math to back up what I'd like to see changed and presented it in a cohesive way. Camate already said it isn't going to change, so at this point our options boil down to pedantic, coffeehouse radical conjecture, or, bandying enough support so that they DO change it. You know, like what happened with relic weapons, or any other number of features people have bandied support for. On a forum. For a game. Dedicated to those things.

[Elemmire]

I hate ilevel :\ it's part of what has ruined WoW and FFXIV for me. Too many elitists who go 'you have to have this gear to do this' when it's content that doesn't even need that high level gear to do it. It's derp.

[Rubeus]

Seriously, SE? now we can't even do the AA fights to get rem's tales 6-10?

It's bad enough the only way to get them is to grind endlessly or spend merits. Now we have to grind endlessly to get them and spend merits to do even harder fights?

CHANGE IT BACK! That is a COMPLETELY unnecessary adjustment!

[detlef]

Seriously, SE? now we can't even do the AA fights to get rem's tales 6-10?Ark Angels aren't being changed at all. The randomization of Rem's Tales from non-AA fights (outside of DM) is being removed.

[Malithar]

Seriously, SE? now we can't even do the AA fights to get rem's tales 6-10?

It's bad enough the only way to get them is to grind endlessly or spend merits. Now we have to grind endlessly to get them and spend merits to do even harder fights?

CHANGE IT BACK! That is a COMPLETELY unnecessary adjustment!

dat reading comprehension bra

[Siviard]

Seriously, SE? now we can't even do the AA fights to get rem's tales 6-10?

It's bad enough the only way to get them is to grind endlessly or spend merits. Now we have to grind endlessly to get them and spend merits to do even harder fights?

CHANGE IT BACK! That is a COMPLETELY unnecessary adjustment!

Epic comprehension fail.

[Rubeus]

"-only- drop," well that's somewhat relieving.

[Damane]

Sorry, I forgot only you can attack other posters. As you have shown to do with Olor as well. Clearly the other people in this thread are just egregories of myself, so I'm sure you're right. I'm the only one affected by ilvl, so they'll change it just for me.

Do you always pick and choose which pieces of an argument to respond to and then act pompous or am I just your favorite? Last time I checked, I had the math to back up what I'd like to see changed and presented it in a cohesive way. Camate already said it isn't going to change, so at this point our options boil down to pedantic, coffeehouse radical conjecture, or, bandying enough support so that they DO change it. You know, like what happened with relic weapons, or any other number of features people have bandied support for. On a forum. For a game. Dedicated to those things.

you are playing the wrong type of game/genre, if gear progression is something that makes you rage.

Yes i love my d.ring, yes I felt rare with it, do i mind that SE gives out KB pops like candy so everyone and their grandmother gets one, at first it singed a bit, but hey lets move on. Gear gets obsolete, move on and do the new content for fun while gearing up with it!!

[Raydeus]

you are playing the wrong type of game/genre, if gear progression is something that makes you rage.

Yes i love my d.ring, yes I felt rare with it, do i mind that SE gives out KB pops like candy so everyone and their grandmother gets one, at first it singed a bit, but hey lets move on. Gear gets obsolete, move on and do the new content for fun while gearing up with it!!

It isn't that simple.

Yes, gear can become obsolete when new gear is added into most games, but XI is based in the much better concept of horizontal progression. Now, that is completely different from making older content more accessible as time passes and new content is added. Which is a no brainer if you want to give players an incentive to finish content they didn't finish before AND have the new content waiting for them when they are done which means more time playing, which means more time paying your sub.

The advantages that both Horizontal progression and an increase in accessibility as time passes have over the vertical progression system far outweight their cons if you are aiming for a long term commitment from players.

Long story short if you fall in the Vertical progression trap (like XIV did) in reality you will always only have whatever new content you released in the last updates since the new iLVL cap. That is because iLVL requirements mean that except for the hardcore that finishes the content as soon as it is released most people will actively skip as much content as they can in order to obtain the newest gear as soon as possible, because older gear and content are pointless by that point. If you have a lvl cap of 50 (XIV) but your current iLVL cap is 90+, and all new content is aimed at ilvl 90 there simply is no reason for anyone to spend time doing all the ilvl content in between.

Then if you want to find out about the story and whatever you can just got back with your high lvl gear, do the battle once to see the cutscenes and forget about all those zones, mechanics and items that the dev team spent so much time creating. Simply because your current gear is far better.

We saw something like that in XI with Scenario gear (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42093-Scenarios-Missing-pieces-and-obtaining-more-than-one-set) ( <---Shameless plug.) That gear is great at lvl 75 but there is no reason to bother with it if you can just get a few more levels and get Aby cruor sets for close to nothing. Effectively negating the appeal of doing those scenarios for anyone that didn't finished them at the time unless they are actually interested in the story. And that's a lot of content rendered useless simply because of an increase in lvl cap, and ilvl power creep effects are far worse than that.

That is what Vertical progression means, disposable content no one will ever want to spend more time than necessary doing. Which coupled with a loss of value of past accomplishments (oh hai Relics) means players wont be as attached to their characters or their time spent playing anymore simply because all content and achievements become disposable every time the new ilvl hits you in the face.

Etc. etc.

/over9000chars