whats the best subjob for DD at 90?

[hordecore]

is IT STIll NINJA or RDM?

[Aphugel]

U know the standard answer to nearly every question regarding FFXI? DEPENDS!
Are u going to tank bc u are doing damage? Are u getting cured? Inside aby? If yes, how much refresh do u have? What def gear do you have and how much of it can u swap fast? AAAAAnd soooo on.....
For pure DD, nin is and always has been pretty useless. For shadows to work, u need a very good eva setup that can be swapped in fast, and u need to keep ur fingers on the button, together with spamming spells non-stop this is hard to do for several hours.
If you have at least 15 atma refresh, that gives u 19 of your own refresh, which is nearly enough to keep spamming spells non-stop. Do u really need convert? Or would you like to use 10 atma refresh and 2 damage atma and top those off by convert? Do you have the skill and the gear for good SS and Phalanx?
Hope this gives u an idea of some of the questions that u need to ask urself to answer ur question for ur current situation.
Cheers

[hordecore]

so the best SUB is RDM?

[Alkalinehoe]

IT IS /COR.

[Vivik]

I started going /rdm once I hit 90. I have not really needed to /nin for anything lately. Just really depends on what you're doing.

[Draylo]

I find /nin to be the best overall sub in Abyssea. Subtle blow, extra tier of dual wield, shadows for survivability. I tank a lot on my BLU and found the shadows to be extremely beneficial vs what I did on /rdm. Normally /rdm I would use occulation, start fight with SS and just try to keep occulation/cocoon up. This becomes prolbematic when facing mobs that like to spam aoes or one shots/crazy moves absorbed by shadows (dumb cruor reset by Bukhis).

If the mob doesn't do that, then /rdm is fine but occulation can become mp taxing if you aren't using a refresh atma. I rarely ever use MM anymore due to getting Almace and using CDC as my main source of dmg. If you are spell spamming then I would most likely lean towards /rdm than /nin. The survivability isn't extremely divided between the two unless specific situations so it comes down to less time buffing/casting and more DDing. /RDM also has added benefit of faster TE farming on BLU. Outside of Abyssea I am normally /rdm for fodder mobs and /nin for solo's/lowman such as limbus.

[Rambus]

I like /DNC.

but only reason is I want to self na myself, extra cures when i need them and cure out of party.

gives acc trait, sc bonus that you do not have to set and hasta simba.

I did not know people used /rdm as DD for 90, what is the reason for that exactly? I can get MAB I with little points and convert is useless with milkin.

what do you like to sub knowing you have to AOE large group of mobs and will get hit by lots of mobs? I do not have atma yet to oneshot crap with charged wisker -.-

[Kitkat]

I swap between /nin and /rdm as it really depends on what I'm doing. Even though it is not 100% reliable, Occulation is a wonderful spell and as /rdm with haste, and couple other choice pieces the recast is around 45 seconds. Additionally, /rdm makes setting up for Charged Whisker time farming easy to adjust spells for since you don't need to set any for mab/fast cast traits, and you won't have to set battery charge either since you'll have refresh. That right there frees up at least 12 blu set points for other spells to increase stats or set other traits.

With even decent gear choices you can easily reach the SS cap in Abyssea (seeing as /rdm gives 132 skill you will need a total of 136mnd), and with a little effort you can get the pieces that increase SS beyond cap also which puts diamonhide to shame by being cheaper mp cost and mitigating more damage. Aquaviel allows sleeping by use of Dream flower that much easier as well.

I find the lose of DW3 from /nin isn't that big considering we can get DW2 from traits. More inventory space since no tools to carry. Still have sneak/invis for when it is needed also. The other difference is slightly lower str/dex/vit/agi but it is only a 1~3 point difference. In most cases this is not enough of a difference to affect spell damage over all.

Standard DD via melee you'll see that you will require 1~2 strikes less to reach 100% as /rdm compared to /nin but at a 5% delay reduction loss. This is about the only point you will see any noticeable DD differences between the 2 subs. So for utility reasons /rdm wins over /nin, but if you aren't sporting some "mage gear" for nukes and such you probably won't get full benefit out of the sub.

While there are noticeable benifits to using /rdm over /nin it really just falls back on the playstyle of the player and if they have the various sets of gears that makes the utility of blu so versatile. Hope that answers your question a little.

[Aeonk]

For mage based DD, /RDM.
for melee based DD, /NIN.

[Jar]

/dnc box step does alot more than you think ..................

[Neisan_Quetz]

/dnc box step does alot more than you think ..................

Not sure if serious.

It does less than you think because of JA delay. Steps are almost not worth using by dnc mains, much less /dnc who doesn't benefit from reverse flourish merits.

[Aphugel]

For soloing on Blu to get lights and fast kills in Aby, Blu/rdm is unbeatable. If you know what you are doing, u can take down 30 mob in 30-40 sec, max AoE damage 50k/spell. Beat that, blm....

[Ackman]

can you be more specific aphugel ? i am a little surprise about what you are saying

which atma are you using ? and which spell ?

[Dohati]

i like to sub dnc if i don't need utsusemi, ninja if i do, and whm for backline healing (which doesn't happen a lot). i almost never attempt to DD with magical dmg.

[saevel]

can you be more specific aphugel ? i am a little surprise about what you are saying

which atma are you using ? and which spell ?

He's being economical with the truth. BLU/RDM using a specialized atma setup, self buffs and poping JA's can do a 2~6K Charged Whisker aoe attack. Its cool to look at and useful for solo work but ultimately limited in group settings. I find WoR to be more useful when aoe spamming mobs as I'm usually with a WAR or two and I can keep my DD atmas on and I won't lose TP between casts.

[Aphugel]

can you be more specific aphugel ? i am a little surprise about what you are saying

which atma are you using ? and which spell ?

Atmas: MM, Stronghold, Apoc (the last two are for staying alive and RR,, just in case)

Load all physical AoE spells, 2 AoE sleep, Frightful roar.

SS, Phalanx, Ice spikes, Haste, Refresh, Cocoon.

Pull about 20 mandies in Altepa (flux6)

run to safe place, frypan, AoE sleep, SS and cocoon again.

Frightful roar, Charged Whisker, 2 hr, Efflux, Whirl of rage.... by now they should be at below 50%.

Spam all AoE spells until dead, frypan and sleep again if needed.

Whirl of rage can do 2000-2500 each.

I keep TP for Sanguine Blade, as uninteruptable cure. Life-saver!

Don't try this unless u got proper gear, got gear properly macroed, and are prepared to die a few times til u got it.

Have fun!

[Aphugel]

He's being economical with the truth. BLU/RDM using a specialized atma setup, self buffs and poping JA's can do a 2~6K Charged Whisker aoe attack. Its cool to look at and useful for solo work but ultimately limited in group settings. I find WoR to be more useful when aoe spamming mobs as I'm usually with a WAR or two and I can keep my DD atmas on and I won't lose TP between casts.

Ideal group for this: Rdm with Phalanx II, Blm, Blu. They won't know what hit them.

Same can be done with a few other mob around aby, though mandies work best.

[Scuro]

Not sure if serious.

It does less than you think because of JA delay. Steps are almost not worth using by dnc mains, much less /dnc who doesn't benefit from reverse flourish merits.

Wait.... seriously? Dude I don't care what JA delay there is since steps are on their seperate recast, it takes down defense, and if your not using this.... your a f*ckin idiot. How the hell else are you going to reverse flourish if your don't have finishing moves from steps? (And no, you don't need Reverse Flourish Merts to use the ability well. getting back roughly 75% TP with a JA is great no matter what) I mean really? Why would you even sub DNC if your not going to Reverse Flourish or use Steps.... Hell the two are synonymous with each other anymore. Please, if your playing BLU/DNC.... Don't do it anymore, for all of us BLUs out there.

Yes I would have to agree with the previous post, Box Step does more then one thinks, even at sub level. Steps, Reverse Flourish and Waltz are a saving grace for BLU, and I've even been able to go back and solo Lance Lord Gaheel Ja on BLU/DNC with no items or food. Its been fantastic. BLU/DNC I would say is competitive in utility when it comes to soloing next to /NIN. Depending really on the mob respectively.

[Yawaru]

Getting a bit militant with the step talk lol. But yeah you can reverse flourish on /DNC, it would take 5 steps to get 5 Finishing Moves since you only get 1 per step for sub, which will in turn give you 60 TP back. So yeah, you spend 50 TP to get 60 TP, IF you don't miss, so it really isn't that great. On the other hand if you're dumping spare TP on a step, like you get 110 TP and use a step before a WS, then yeah you're conserving TP more efficiently, but it's pointless, and possibly counterproductive, to use steps to gain TP faster /DNC. But like Scuro said, - DEF is - DEF. If you think Steps are pointless on DNC main though you're not a good DNC, but that's for another forum.

As far as subs go, it's situational, no need to beat a dead horse, but I'm surprised no one said much about SCH and WHM subs. In general I prefer RDM for Fast Cast and such, but being able to Cure IV and cast NA spells is good for alliance support, not to mention healing magic skill does effect Fruit and Embrace. Also good for soloing when you know you're gonna fight something that can paralyze you. I don't think /NIN is that great anymore unless it'll keep you from getting 1-shotted, for tanking I'd rather rely on PDT Sword/Genbu's and Phalanx with RDM sub. I mean if you're in a situation where you'd want /NIN to tank on BLU, you probably don't want a BLU to tank :D

[Scuro]

As far as subs go, it's situational, no need to beat a dead horse, but I'm surprised no one said much about SCH and WHM subs. In general I prefer RDM for Fast Cast and such, but being able to Cure IV and cast NA spells is good for alliance support, not to mention healing magic skill does effect Fruit and Embrace. Also good for soloing when you know you're gonna fight something that can paralyze you. I don't think /NIN is that great anymore unless it'll keep you from getting 1-shotted, for tanking I'd rather rely on PDT Sword/Genbu's and Phalanx with RDM sub. I mean if you're in a situation where you'd want /NIN to tank on BLU, you probably don't want a BLU to tank :D

The reason why nobody talks about /WHM or /SCH anymore though is because there is no longer a reason to sub it. The reason why people did /WHM was because it was a great mage job, and you didn't g et any good benefits from /RDM, then /SCH hit, and it was teh only way to get MP returns, also you had a wider list of spells. Now that /RDM can Convert and Refresh, as well as do much of what /SCH can, there really just isn't a point in subbing it anymore. I was a big advocate for BLU/SCH back when the cap was 75. I even wrote the guide for BLU/SCH in a Divine Manafest fight, but ya with the emergence of /RDM, not a point anymore. I still say /NIN is extremely viable since idk about others but I'm always getting hate on my BLU, so damage mitigation is always a positive, and while Occultation is a good way to tank as well, its still not 100% (Waita Fail SE!). If BLU had better DEF, like on par with a WAR or something, I would totally get behind BLU and a Genbu Shield. Yet I haven't been able to play with Phalanx much so I'll have to check that out sometime.

On a final note, the reason why I say reverse Flourish matters, even if it gives back 60 TP and consumes 50TP; its worth if to the reason people use Chain Affinity. When you use CA, consumes all your TP, and as a DNC if your fighting an NM that hits you hard as hell, your low on MP and you just used CA; Reverse Flourish is going to save your ass. Really its just a saftey button move to help keep us alive. Thats why I fully support Reverse Flourish, and of course, why not use it if you are (or that you should be) accumulating finishing moves by using Box step

[ShadowHeart]

i seen charged whisker burns going and make me cry i wish i could figure out what atmas and set ups it is exactly.

I stacked MAB gear what i had at least / rdm put all mab spells and enhancing spells in and cant do 5-6k /mob kills which i have seen done on many times on multiple mobs ... crabs in misereaux, fish in vunkrel, chigoes in attowha all grabbing groups of 10-20 mobs a shot and one shotting the whole lot... its mainly a solo upto maybe a trio farm but i still havent been able to perfect it i know to use tonic burst affinity etc... but i seem to be missing something any of these killer blu's wish to share in forums or PM i would appreciate it :)

[Yawaru]

The reason why nobody talks about /WHM or /SCH anymore though is because there is no longer a reason to sub it. The reason why people did /WHM was because it was a great mage job, and you didn't g et any good benefits from /RDM, then /SCH hit, and it was teh only way to get MP returns, also you had a wider list of spells. Now that /RDM can Convert and Refresh, as well as do much of what /SCH can, there really just isn't a point in subbing it anymore. I was a big advocate for BLU/SCH back when the cap was 75. I even wrote the guide for BLU/SCH in a Divine Manafest fight, but ya with the emergence of /RDM, not a point anymore. I still say /NIN is extremely viable since idk about others but I'm always getting hate on my BLU, so damage mitigation is always a positive, and while Occultation is a good way to tank as well, its still not 100% (Waita Fail SE!). If BLU had better DEF, like on par with a WAR or something, I would totally get behind BLU and a Genbu Shield. Yet I haven't been able to play with Phalanx much so I'll have to check that out sometime.

On a final note, the reason why I say reverse Flourish matters, even if it gives back 60 TP and consumes 50TP; its worth if to the reason people use Chain Affinity. When you use CA, consumes all your TP, and as a DNC if your fighting an NM that hits you hard as hell, your low on MP and you just used CA; Reverse Flourish is going to save your ass. Really its just a saftey button move to help keep us alive. Thats why I fully support Reverse Flourish, and of course, why not use it if you are (or that you should be) accumulating finishing moves by using Box step

Yeah I meant to remove SCH since there's no reason to use it anymore, but WHM is still very viable. If they remove the restriction of party only for Magic Fruit/P Embrace and make Winds of Promy remove Para/Blind/Poison/etc then there would be no reason to sub WHM anymore. And as far as BLU not having the same DEF as WAR, you get more DEF on BLU dude. Cocoon is 50% DEF boost, Defender is only 25%. Armor wise Ravager +1 set is 208 total def Mavi +1 is 178 total def so it's not like armor makes that much difference, plus cocoon has no negative effects. And the fact you can use a shield on BLU without much detriment and WAR is screwed out of its main weapon, plus being able to cure itself, BLU is a bit better off than most DDs.

[Karbuncle]

Wait.... seriously? Dude I don't care what JA delay there is since steps are on their seperate recast, it takes down defense, and if your not using this.... your a f*ckin idiot. How the hell else are you going to reverse flourish if your don't have finishing moves from steps? (And no, you don't need Reverse Flourish Merts to use the ability well. getting back roughly 75% TP with a JA is great no matter what) I mean really? Why would you even sub DNC if your not going to Reverse Flourish or use Steps.... Hell the two are synonymous with each other anymore. Please, if your playing BLU/DNC.... Don't do it anymore, for all of us BLUs out there.



By "Job Ability Delay" he means that, After initiating a Job ability, any ability, there is a 2 Second Delay between when that JA, or WS goes off, before you can attack again. He's saying that it takes away from your DPS.

When you're a DNC and attacking every ~1.9 seconds, using a Step can take away up to ~800 Damage away from your Melee phase (assuming 4~6 hits being lucky with DA/TA). He's not saying that you should never Use them. His argument is valid though. You should not result to name calling.

Final Thought. I won't deny Reverse Flourish is a neat Ability, 60tp for 5 Steps (though in reality that's more than 10 seconds of Attacks your missing, on a quick DD like THF or DNC, thats probably more than 60tp).

that and Box Step is -5%DEF!, and 2% more with each level, for a total of 13% Defense Down. It can be useful for NMs I would imagine because you can keep the -13% on over time, but on mobs that die in ~10 Seconds it might not do as much as you hope, especially if you only get 1 Step off, 5% Defense down will make a difference, but it might not make up for the Attack rounds you lose due to the universal Ability Delay.(2 seconds).

I don't deny the usefulness, I'm just saying you shouldn't be so quick to insult someone based on their opinion, when their Opinion does hold merit, at least for some jobs. You might be right for BLU, but it still no reason to insult so heavily.

[Felren]

/rdm- mage-like spells, tanking something where shadows kinda suck, tanking something that attacks soft/fast, good for if MP is a problem and you want convert ready- o............ FAST CAST IS AMAZING


/nin- Utsusemi... thats about all. Dual wield from blu alone is easy to reach, but if you're meleeing for damage /nin helps a little. Eva set + /nin can just completely make some NMs not hit you at all, certainly as we get higher and higher level.

[Scuro]

lol I can be an ass in what I say, but I suppose I could of phrased my words nicer. Yet still why would you even sub DNC if your not even going to use steps or reverse flourish? Thats just straight up pointless. I can understand your reasoning for perhaps not doing it, but even so, that would matter more if BLU's main source of DPS was sword (Much as DNC main DPS is dagger).... its not. Sword supplements your magic casting more so then the other way around, your primary damage is going to come from your magic. Thats why really sword DPS isn't a great deal because really..... what damage are you really contributing with your sword? I mean no doubt you shouldn't shun the weapon and neglect getting up to date weapons and such. Yet really any BLU knows that your magic comes first, then sword. And getting them to work together is what makes you golden. Also if your really worried about that 1-2 swings, you can head butt the thing and get in your step.

[Kageshinhiryu]

Well, generally speaking:

/WAR is best for aby-xping because nothing lives long enough to really worry about your MP pool or tank. MM (sub-out SS if you'd just pot your MP back or have a RDM refresh2 you), VV, RR, Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, SB->GR->Light->TP -> dead..... most doesn't usually live after Light though. However, if you spam CDC + Physical spell, pretty much nothing is going to live either, so your shadows are kinda pointless.

If something does live long enough, Proc5 + Defender + tank food + Cocoon + an atma = 999 defense. If you get the mob debuffed correctly, you're looking at damage from its in the 30-70's, unless its a critical.... and you're still DW'ing.... Poor PLD's..

/NIN perfect, situationally, for something that likes to use MightStrikes as its 2hour or has it on indefinitely during a battle. However, our evasion is lackluster and blink tanking really is not our forte versus anything a NIN, THF, or DNC can tank with ease. With the advent of DW2 available to us by spellset, /NIN has kind of lost it's usefulness; unless you're more on the Haste set-up spam WS+PhysBluMg, but I'd rather have Berserk over that though.

/DNC is PERFECT for soloing outside Aby and looking for spells. .... and that's about it. Unless you're in a linkshell and just there to proc BLU magic on NMs. Then you can Plenilune + Healing Waltz..... and erases your bordemn.

/SAM ...... backwards skill chaining. I haven't tried this and it seems kinda pointless to do so.

/RDM is about as good as it gets if all you want to do is spam Blu physical magic. Otherwise, the WAR or NIN trumps this one for self-skill chaining or busting out CDC's.

[Dohati]

The reason why nobody talks about /WHM or /SCH anymore though is because there is no longer a reason to sub it.

/whm and /sch both add status removal spells which no other job can do. /sch also adds a ton of healing skill which (no clue why square-enix did it that way) enhances the potency of magic fruit, and whm is currently the only sub that allows you to haste party members.

[Dohati]

Well, generally speaking:

/WAR is best for aby-xping because nothing lives long enough to really worry about your MP pool or tank. MM (sub-out SS if you'd just pot your MP back or have a RDM refresh2 you), VV, RR, Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, SB->GR->Light->TP -> dead..... most doesn't usually live after Light though. However, if you spam CDC + Physical spell, pretty much nothing is going to live either, so your shadows are kinda pointless.

If something does live long enough, Proc5 + Defender + tank food + Cocoon + an atma = 999 defense. If you get the mob debuffed correctly, you're looking at damage from its in the 30-70's, unless its a critical.... and you're still DW'ing.... Poor PLD's..

/NIN perfect, situationally, for something that likes to use MightStrikes as its 2hour or has it on indefinitely during a battle. However, our evasion is lackluster and blink tanking really is not our forte versus anything a NIN, THF, or DNC can tank with ease. With the advent of DW2 available to us by spellset, /NIN has kind of lost it's usefulness; unless you're more on the Haste set-up spam WS+PhysBluMg, but I'd rather have Berserk over that though.

/DNC is PERFECT for soloing outside Aby and looking for spells. .... and that's about it. Unless you're in a linkshell and just there to proc BLU magic on NMs. Then you can Plenilune + Healing Waltz..... and erases your bordemn.

/SAM ...... backwards skill chaining. I haven't tried this and it seems kinda pointless to do so.

/RDM is about as good as it gets if all you want to do is spam Blu physical magic. Otherwise, the WAR or NIN trumps this one for self-skill chaining or busting out CDC's.

you know i never really thought about subbing war on blu because i have double attack and attack bonus set in my spells consuming little to no extra blue magic points. i totally forgot about berserk, agressor, and warcry. i just use dnc and nin so much because dual wield II is so expensive to set.

[Defiledsickness]

I sub dnc all the time. Solo'd my feet seals and it's great for LS farming because you have an easy erase and can heal other parties. /dnc gives you evasion bonus and gnarled horn atma is enough to eva-tank low acc nms. I never sub it outside abyssea with blu because outside you need Nin. Inside abyssea tho, most nm's will tear away your shadows (although when shadow tanking is viable, you can really do great pairing it with Occultation)

I never /rdm unless im doing trials outside of abyssea. Spam whirl of rage, benthic typhoon and blood drain. then convert every 50mobs or so.

I do like the Magical spells (whisker is really nice), but until i get another atma to pair with Beyond i wont be subbing rdm for much. If you're only triggering then /dnc and use a regain atma. Otherwise Nin is still the main deal. And sch is still good isnt it? Im pretty sure healing magic skill effects blu healing spells. And dark magic skill effects drains. Could be wrong but /sch always seemed to work a ton better then /blm.

[Jalonis]

Here's why steps are useful for dancer and not so much for anyone else: DNC main gets 2 moves per step, 3 with presto. Thus, with merits, they put in 20 tp and get out 75. As a subjob, you get 1 step, so you have to put in 50 to get 60, not worth it.

[Xilk]

Here's why steps are useful for dancer and not so much for anyone else: DNC main gets 2 moves per step, 3 with presto. Thus, with merits, they put in 20 tp and get out 75. As a subjob, you get 1 step, so you have to put in 50 to get 60, not worth it.

Unless you want the debuffs on the mob also.

[Kitkat]

I don't get why some are saying you need a whm or a rdm+blm+blu/rdm to do AOE farming. With correct atma and decent to good nuke set I'm perfectly capable of doing AOE with a rdm+blu/rdm and find it easier than when I do it as rdm+war/sam since I'm not absolutely killing my defense to do so. Frogs, chigoe, crabs, and lizard I'm capable of dispatching with AOE for TE. Generally I'll have to only use CW+Thermal, but also have Leaf storm set as a back up unless something is resistant to wind. Dream Flower casts fast enough as /rdm to not need a blm.

I generally put up Stoneskin and aquaveil, have the rdm phalanx II, and swap into -pdt set to gather about 10~15mobs. Pop BA, swap back into nuke set and use CW and thermal (generally all I need) and Aquaveil lasts long enough to do this to avoid interrupts. Should it not, Dream flower and reapply Aquaviel before continuing. In the rare instance that doesn't do it I usually use Leaf storm to finish off or just WoR to finish off. Typically I use Lion, Ultimate, MM for this.

Generally due to cuor buffs (and dom enhances buffs) my Str is still in the 120~140 range thus my physical spells aren't hurt much at all doing this. Once I've gained enough TE I'll slip back to DD atma and rearrange my spells. As this only takes 5min of my time to switch it back up after getting 200~300min I have no issues doing so. Occasionally if I'm farming TE for the alliance while the rest are killing NM I won't even change atma back if there are nasty AOE, instead I'll move some spells around and do DMG from back line seeing as grudge does around 2400 (so long as nm isn't resistant to dark), regurg is up in the 1300~1700 range, CW and TP both have a range of 12 which is out of smaller AOE range and still does good dmg even to NM.

Part I love about /rdm the most is obviously the Fast cast, but I also have isador, homam legs, and a fast cast +3 neck I can put on for using certain yellow !! spells that otherwise take a long time to get off. With +2 body/hands cast off/recast is capped in this situation.

Only time I use /nin is if I don't have to do TE burns and I absolutely need that 100% shadow block (and obviously for the superior DoT melee). A blu doing melee can be just as destructive as a blu doing magical dmg or spamming spells, given you have at least RR to use.

Due to how much hate blu can generate without /war, I've never seen a reason to use the sub for aggressor, zer, warcry. Also I've had yet a need to have defender at my disposal, but to each their own. Whatever fits the playstyle of the individual determines the sub they will primarily use.

[Prothscar]

/NIN is your best pure DD sub. Let's break this down.

-Dual wield III. You gain the ability to equip two swords with a 35% delay reduction which gives the following boons:
*A second hit, adding whatever DoT you garner from that sword.
*The stats of the second weapon (in most cases)
*A 30% overall decrease in attack delay and a more minor increase in TP gain.
*A bonus hit on your weaponskill from your offhand, which also adds fTP to that weaponskill.

-Shadow images. Occultation and Stoneskin are nice and dandy, (I won't even mention phalanx, the bonus is negligible in any non-whisker burn scenario and should not be a primary factor in deciding what sub job you should use), however they are unreliable. The only reason these defensive spells should really be considered for a DD sub to begin with is that I guarantee to you that more damage output will be achieved while you're alive rather than eating dirt or waiting on weakness.

No other sub job really compares. /RDM offers nothing for your damage, it offers only defensive additions that are on par with or less useful than utsusemi to begin with. If you're planning on whisker burning all night, /RDM is surely the way to go. However, if you plan on doing anything real such as NMs, then I would suggest using a subjob that lends itself to DD and tanking, (if you aren't pulling hate on BLU you're doing it wrong). It's more than possible to solo whisker burn as /NIN, you just have to do smaller pulls.

[Zagen]

No other sub job really compares. /RDM offers nothing for your damage, it offers only defensive additions that are on par with or less useful than utsusemi to begin with. If you're planning on whisker burning all night, /RDM is surely the way to go. However, if you plan on doing anything real such as NMs, then I would suggest using a subjob that lends itself to DD and tanking, (if you aren't pulling hate on BLU you're doing it wrong). It's more than possible to solo whisker burn as /NIN, you just have to do smaller pulls.

1) Faster cast and recast on spells would beg to differ on "offers nothing for your damage". Unless you have Almace most of your damage comes from spells and the faster you can cast them means the more damage you'll do.

2) I've soloed a lot of of seal NMs straight tanking as BLU/RDM, Head Butt is awesome and a lot of NMs still don't resist it. #1 applies here too.

3) /RDM offers MAB2 which pushes your Saguine Blade damage.

4) If you aren't running out of MP even with MM on you're doing something wrong, Convert is always nice to have to refill that MP.

5) Shell2 + Barspell come in handy considering a lot of NMs spam aga/ja spells. Being able to nearly cap Stoneskin with just /RDM is nice too when eating agas/jas (could probably cap but I don't have a MND build anymore).

Don't get me wrong Utsusemi has it's place but /RDM isn't as bad as you're making it sound. As usual stuff is situational :D

Heck I even have reasons for /SCH but I'm about the only BLU I know willing to play healer role.

[Prothscar]

1) Faster cast and recast on spells would beg to differ on "offers nothing for your damage". Unless you have Almace most of your damage comes from spells and the faster you can cast them means the more damage you'll do.

2) I've soloed a lot of of seal NMs straight tanking as BLU/RDM, Head Butt is awesome and a lot of NMs still don't resist it. #1 applies here too.

3) /RDM offers MAB2 which pushes your Saguine Blade damage.

4) If you aren't running out of MP even with MM on you're doing something wrong, Convert is always nice to have to refill that MP.

5) Shell2 + Barspell come in handy considering a lot of NMs spam aga/ja spells. Being able to nearly cap Stoneskin with just /RDM is nice too when eating agas/jas (could probably cap but I don't have a MND build anymore).

Don't get me wrong Utsusemi has it's place but /RDM isn't as bad as you're making it sound. As usual stuff is situational :D

Heck I even have reasons for /SCH but I'm about the only BLU I know willing to play healer role.

1) Can get nearly the same casting speed /NIN as you can /RDM. 10% difference. Recast is a negligible 2%.

2) Head Butt's recast is 10 seconds, the difference between Fast Cast and Fast Cast II is 2%. 0.2 seconds off of the recast timer. /RDM lends nothing else to Head Butt.

3) The difference between MAB and MABII is 4 magic attack bonus. Can already get that while /NIN if you're really in desperate need for extra damage on Sanguine Blade.

4) Convert is unnecessary. No fight lasts long enough for you to run completely out of MP, and if you're solo why are you converting while fighting?

5) 14% MDT is alright, yes, but it isn't worth an entire sub. The 60 resistance from a /RDM barspell is miniscule unless you're carrying around a resist set to supplement it. My inventory is cramped enough to have to carry every elemental resist set though.


/RDM is situational yes, and the situation it's useful in is whisker burning. The OP was asking about pure DD subjobs, and /RDM can not compare to /NIN for DD.

[Zagen]

1) Can get nearly the same casting speed /NIN as you can /RDM. 10% difference. Recast is a negligible 2%.

Sub job or 8/9 points only 4 of which "might" be set.


2) Head Butt's recast is 10 seconds, the difference between Fast Cast and Fast Cast II is 2%. 0.2 seconds off of the recast timer. /RDM lends nothing else to Head Butt.
Cool 5% faster land 2.5% faster recast, don't round down when you shouldn't. Point is, it is still faster. than /NIN


3) The difference between MAB and MABII is 4 magic attack bonus. Can already get that while /NIN if you're really in desperate need for extra damage on Sanguine Blade.

Cool another 3 points minimum you're wasting by using a spell combo that wouldn't normally be set for DDing outside of Whisker farming. 4% is still more added to it which also means more HP healed while minimal still reduces MP spent on cures.


4) Convert is unnecessary. No fight lasts long enough for you to run completely out of MP, and if you're solo why are you converting while fighting?
When you're in a group chain pulling mobs you'll run out of MP if you don't then well you won't be keeping up with me. just because you can kill 1 mob in 10-20seconds (5~ with SC) doesn't mean there won't be another one behind it waiting to die, and another one after that. The point is you will run out of MP.


/RDM is situational yes, and the situation it's useful in is whisker burning. The OP was asking about pure DD subjobs, and /RDM can not compare to /NIN for DD.

When I parsed the combos at 80, /RDM won, when I parsed them again at 90 /RDM won again so I don't understand how it "can't compare". But then again I don't waste 7+ set points on Traits when a sub job not only gives them to me but a better version.

[Prothscar]

I'd like to see these parses, because they sound either incredibly skewed or non-existant.

[Zagen]

Rules were:
No Soothing Lights or Temp Item boxes because there was no way for me to keep them consistent.
Same Spell Set.
Utususemi was used as needed.
Stoneskin was only used every 5 min.
Atma: RR/VV/MM
1 hour.
Solo all mobs.

No one attacked a monster I was fighting, I tried to keep people helping away but as you can see that didn't work out completely.

BLU/RDM

Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
Tanemomi 858 0.21 % 858 0 0 0 0 0
Zagen 402870 99.79 % 51727 0 0 45123 306020 0
Total 403728 100.00 % 52585 0 0 45123 306020 0


Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Tanemomi 858 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 100.00 % 0/0 0.00 0.00 5 0/191 171.60 100.00 %
Zagen 51727 12.84 % 369/55 87.03 % 87.03 % 0/130 82.73 82.73 186 0/261 196.70 50.41 %


Ranged Damage
Player Range Dmg Range % Hit/Miss R.HR % R.Acc % R.Low/Hi R+0.Avg R-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Tanemomi 0 0.00 % 0/1 0.00 % 0.00 % 0/0 0.00 0.00 0 0/0 0.00 0.00 %


Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Zagen 45123 11.20 % 44/0 100.00 % 532/2038 1025.52
- Sanguine Blade 38959 86.34 % 39/0 100.00 % 532/1314 998.95
- Savage Blade 2579 5.72 % 3/0 100.00 % 753/998 859.67
- Vorpal Blade 3585 7.94 % 2/0 100.00 % 1547/2038 1792.50


Spell Damage
Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg
Zagen 306020 75.96 % 287 9 194/4461 1066.27 0 0/0 0.00
- Benthic Typhoon 4979 1.63 % 5 1 842/1253 995.80 0 0/0 0.00
- Delta Thrust 68945 22.53 % 60 0 631/1696 1149.08 0 0/0 0.00
- Disseverment 84858 27.73 % 58 0 655/2315 1463.07 0 0/0 0.00
- Goblin Rush 12881 4.21 % 9 0 462/2547 1431.22 0 0/0 0.00
- Head Butt 22934 7.49 % 83 5 194/1363 276.31 0 0/0 0.00
- Quad. Continuum 55583 18.16 % 23 0 961/4461 2416.65 0 0/0 0.00
- Vanity Dive 50062 16.36 % 43 3 870/1547 1164.23 0 0/0 0.00
- Whirl of Rage 5778 1.89 % 6 0 762/1230 963.00 0 0/0 0.00


BLU/NIN


Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
Rorien 5783 1.61 % 2126 0 25 3503 0 129
Zagen 350110 97.70 % 57897 0 0 31212 261001 0
SC: Distortion 2441 0.68 % 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 358334 100.00 % 60023 0 25 34715 261001 129


Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Rorien 2126 36.76 % 16/7 69.57 % 100.00 % 0/108 81.44 81.44 7 0/221 199.00 43.75 %
Zagen 57897 16.54 % 420/77 84.51 % 100.00 % 0/120 76.94 76.94 233 0/260 186.74 55.48 %


Other Magical Damage (Additional Effects and Spikes)
Player M.AE Dmg # M.AE M.AE Avg R.AE Dmg # R.AE R.AE Avg Spk.Dmg # Spike Spk.Avg
Rorien 0 0 0.00 0 0 0.00 129 5 25.80


Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Rorien 3503 60.57 % 2/0 100.00 % 1595/1908 1751.50
- Vorpal Blade 3503 100.00 % 2/0 100.00 % 1595/1908 1751.50
Zagen 31212 8.91 % 37/0 100.00 % 297/1944 843.57
- Sanguine Blade 16972 54.38 % 23/0 100.00 % 378/850 737.91
- Savage Blade 7892 25.29 % 10/0 100.00 % 297/1257 789.20
- Vorpal Blade 6348 20.34 % 4/0 100.00 % 1135/1944 1587.00


Ability Damage
Player Abil. Dmg Abil. % Hit/Miss A.Acc % A.Low/Hi A.Avg
Rorien 25 0.43 % 1/0 100.00 % 25/25 25.00
- Shield Bash 25 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 25/25 25.00


Spell Damage
Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg
Zagen 261001 74.55 % 241 6 0/4556 1082.99 0 0/0 0.00
- Benthic Typhoon 3394 1.30 % 4 0 825/897 848.50 0 0/0 0.00
- Delta Thrust 47179 18.08 % 45 0 573/1471 1048.42 0 0/0 0.00
- Disseverment 61479 23.56 % 44 0 794/2173 1397.25 0 0/0 0.00
- Goblin Rush 12947 4.96 % 12 0 493/1534 1078.92 0 0/0 0.00
- Head Butt 14820 5.68 % 64 4 0/357 231.56 0 0/0 0.00
- Quad. Continuum 71361 27.34 % 26 0 891/4556 2744.65 0 0/0 0.00
- Vanity Dive 46880 17.96 % 42 2 762/1506 1116.19 0 0/0 0.00
- Whirl of Rage 2941 1.13 % 4 0 600/895 735.25 0 0/0 0.00


Skillchain Damage
Skillchain SC Dmg # SC SC.Low/Hi SC.Avg
SC: Distortion 2441 1 2441/2441 2441.00


I honestly don't know how 1 SC showed up while I was on /NIN since my gear swaps normally prevent me from seeing the SC damage/animations. I'm sure if I had used Items/Soothing Light chests the numbers would be different but also would be a lot less accurate since I could have gotten 100 on one run and only 70 on another.

Edit: this is the parse at 90 I don't have the one at 80 anymore due to a reformat of my computer in between.

tl:dr
BLU/RDM: 402,870
BLU/NIN: 350,110

[Prothscar]

Continued from the other thread as to keep it on topic and not attract the ire of Moderators:


It's only a loss in dps if your spell damage is so poor it can't outweigh your melee dps.

No, it's a loss in DPS. Due to the way level correction works and how we cannot augment the attack of our spells to scale with a monster's defenses, it's far more realistic to augment the damage of sword DoT and weaponskills. This is common and basic knowledge.


Regardless this is off topic and most other posts in this thread are also off topic people should just put what atmas they use so people have an idea of what is good in differant situations not try to belittle others for the atma choices it's childish even if you have math to back it up.

While we're being childish, "they started it" etc. etc.


The nice thing about blue mage is that its a hybrid job and there can be many differant play styles and just because one atma doesn't increase your damage specifically, doesn't mean its the same for everyone.

It's a hybrid job, but there's no such thing as hybrid damage. You either do damage or you don't. In this situation, spamming spells is more effective on trash EM-T mobs and lower, and sword damage will pull ahead on almost anything higher than that for the reasons specified above. pDIF is broken on blue magic. Even assuming that magic spamming is the better choice, Voracious Violet is a lesser choice to Apocalypse for any Blue Mage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Admittedly forgot to point out Physical Spells lose alot on stronger mobs due to Blue magic attack being so low, I can agree to those points. At the same time, if /Nin and not casting often you could drop MM and use Sang Scythe.

[Prothscar]

That's what I usually did, now I don't even bother using MM at all though since I finished Almace for obvious reasons. I can amend a previous post and say SS > GH.

[renasci]

Rules were:
1)No Soothing Lights or Temp Item boxes because there was no way for me to keep them consistent.
2)Same Spell Set.
3)Utususemi was used as needed.
4)Stoneskin was only used every 5 min.
5)Atma: RR/VV/MM
6)1 hour.
7)Solo all mobs.

I find your rules... odd.

1)Temp/and SL's, sure, for parity, that should be that way.

2)Why should different /subs have the same spell set? Different /subs obviously provide different strengths and weaknesses... And an identical spell set will not produce even results for that reason. You should be playing with a spell set tailored to what you're doing and what you're subbing, As you naturally would, keeping them the same will skew.

3&4) Utsu 'as needed' is vague, and style dependant, especially when you're arbitrarily limiting how often you cast stoneskin... If stoneskin is an argument to offset /Nin viability, you should be using it as often as viable.... Or rather, 'as needed' Cast times add up after all.

7) OP asked for DD. That implies you are filling a DD role in a pt, and Solo is not the same environment. SO, if you had better results solo as /rdm than you did /nin... I don't know that this bears any relevance to results you would have in a PT setting.

Tangentially, I find it really annoying that when people downplay /NIN they say it's because you can set DW2 natively... When you you can set Fast Cast and MAB natively too. IN the current era of so many valid DD spells, being able to cast a .5 second cast spell 5% faster (and .7 seconds sooner!) seems asinine as an argument for damage augmentation.

Edit: additionally, In your parse you cast fewer spells by a significant margin on /nin... which you could explain away by virtue of Convert.... Now tell me why you have more WS on /rdm? Or why your Vorpal is 200 points Avg higher on your /rdm ?

Or why Damage taken/Healed is absent from the parse. /RDM proponents talk endlessly of convert, but -especially- since you're solo, that additional damage taken has to be recovered, and that's MP spent. Sanguine won't soak that much damage alone (from experience since my my avg SB /nin is 300 higher than your parse data /rdm)

[Zagen]

I find your rules... odd.

1)Temp/and SL's, sure, for parity, that should be that way.

Because getting Temps every 10 seconds in a group or going 2 minutes in between temp chests popping can happen thus skewing either sub would likely happen.


2)Why should different /subs have the same spell set? Different /subs obviously provide different strengths and weaknesses... And an identical spell set will not produce even results for that reason. You should be playing with a spell set tailored to what you're doing and what you're subbing, As you naturally would, keeping them the same will skew.

Because I didn't see the point at the time in swapping spell sets for MAB/Fast Cast with /NIN and DW2 with /RDM at the cost of the stats from other spells.


3&4) Utsu 'as needed' is vague, and style dependant, especially when you're arbitrarily limiting how often you cast stoneskin... If stoneskin is an argument to offset /Nin viability, you should be using it as often as viable.... Or rather, 'as needed' Cast times add up after all.

If a mob dies in 1 shadow I didn't recast Ni unless it ate my last shadow.


7) OP asked for DD. That implies you are filling a DD role in a pt, and Solo is not the same environment. SO, if you had better results solo as /rdm than you did /nin... I don't know that this bears any relevance to results you would have in a PT setting.

When I used to use my BLU as a DD in groups there was no difference than soloing other than there were people in the party. I still soloed mobs for azure kills.


Edit: additionally, In your parse you cast fewer spells by a significant margin on /nin... which you could explain away by virtue of Convert.... Now tell me why you have more WS on /rdm? Or why your Vorpal is 200 points Avg higher on your /rdm ?

Less down time on kills as to more WS. As to the 200 higher on /RDM I honestly don't know.


Or why Damage taken/Healed is absent from the parse. /RDM proponents talk endlessly of convert, but -especially- since you're solo, that additional damage taken has to be recovered, and that's MP spent. Sanguine won't soak that much damage alone (from experience since my my avg SB /nin is 300 higher than your parse data /rdm)

The parse was an old one and only cared about the damage at the time so didn't think to save all of it. Though I remember I stayed around 60% HP on /RDM so Converts weren't wasted since I didn't have an MP build.

[renasci]

To clarify, I was agreeing with you on your SL/Temps rule.


Less down time on kills as to more WS. As to the 200 higher on /RDM I honestly don't know.

I don't follow what you mean by this; there should not have been any downtime at all, between shadows/sanguine/minikin, you will always have enough MP for headbutt and HP to survive, and... I don't see another reason for not being engaged. Since /nin has increased survivability and melee DoT, It seems to me that the entire point of parsing /nin vs. /rdm would be to continue on regardless of MP level.

[Zagen]

To clarify, I was agreeing with you on your SL/Temps rule.



I don't follow what you mean by this; there should not have been any downtime at all, between shadows/sanguine/minikin, you will always have enough MP for headbutt and HP to survive, and... I don't see another reason for not being engaged. Since /nin has increased survivability and melee DoT, It seems to me that the entire point of parsing /nin vs. /rdm would be to continue on regardless of MP level.

Miss reading on my part, I read parity as party and didn't understand what you wrote due to that.

Edit: Downtime in the sense that with /NIN I was doing slower kills due to lower MP. For the most part doing a slower kill with just melee/ws was enough to allow MM/battery to restore MP but the ladybugs had crazy triple attack rate if I remember correctly which left me needing to /heal more with /nin than /rdm.

Edit 2: I'm assuming the crazy triple attack rate tbh the parse was old and I haven't really done testing lately as my BLU is a whisker whore now.

[Scuro]

lol did this topic seriously get necro'd?

[Prothscar]

Is this still an issue? I simply don't see how you can adamantly say that /RDM offers anything to the offensive power of BLU over /NIN to where /RDM is head and shoulders above the competition. You should not be having enough MP troubles to say that Convert adds so much to your overall damage that it causes /RDM to beat out /NIN in almost any conceivable situation. I'm not saying you're one of these BLUs, Zagen, although proof remains to be seen to the contrary: I've seen more and more Blue Mages that believe melee damage is not a part of a Blue Mage's damage spread. I simply don't understand this mindset. You don't need an Almace to have your melee DoT and weaponskill damage contribute to your overall damage output.

/NIN offers more to this part of your damage than /RDM does. Period. You shouldn't be using Sanguine Blade on anything that matters, in fact, you shouldn't be using it for pure damage purposes to begin with. Vorpal Blade will outperform it every time.

/RDM offers a slight advantage in the magical portion of your damage. Fast Cast is a moot point. Every offensive physicla blue magic spell casts so quickly that fast cast will not be providing any readily discernible advantage over the settable fast cast trait, or no fast cast trait at all. The recast reduction, while welcome, is also miniscule. It's basic math and simple to comprehend.

[Zagen]

Prothscar I agree with what you're saying to a degree. When I looked at it on paper I got the same results /NIN should be better than /RDM. The thing is on paper is one thing in practice is another. I always looked at "on paper" results as the best you could possibly be after all when I math things out on paper there is nothing taken into account for uncontrollable variables (lag, player reaction time, monsters getting odd triple attack rounds, etc.) That's why I run parses to let me know what is actually better for me as a player who makes errors who is affected by random variables.

That said this should only apply to EXP/trash mobs, our blink spells are "nice" but blink is crap compared to Utsusemi on Anything that doesn't just plain wipe shadows 100% of the time NM wise.

Although I do have a question that was sort of a curiosity I haven't had time to math out maybe you've already tested it. Under the assumption Utsusemi isn't needed are Warcry and Berserk a substantial boost to damage for an Almace BLU to go /WAR over /NIN?

[Prothscar]

I can't really justify /WAR over /NIN, you lose a bit too much. I'm sure there's a situation where it could be useful, but... :X

[Scuro]

Oh christ here we go again with the /RDM /NIN debate, lets just all agree to disagree and drop it. People are still going to sub /RDM, and some people will still sub /NIN, hell some people will even sub /DNC. Really I think this topic met its end when people stopped posting in it like a month ago.

[renasci]

Oh christ here we go again with the /RDM /NIN debate, lets just all agree to disagree and drop it. People are still going to sub /RDM, and some people will still sub /NIN, hell some people will even sub /DNC. Really I think this topic met its end when people stopped posting in it like a month ago.

It's not as though I was trying to necro post... but when you have topics that are a month old on the FRONT page of the forum...

Besides, the tone is much more civil given the lapse in time.

so... really I think you're over reacting, especially since your contributions to the thread thus far have only been complaints.

[Tashan]

There is no reason to sub RDM for DD purposes.

Convert is irrelevant, Refresh 1 can be made up with Battery Charge, Fast Cast 2 does not contribute enough.

The best damage dealing support job is /NIN. No amount of additional attack, stats, accuracy which you can recieve from any other support job will benefit you more than the delay reduction of the Dual Wield 3 trait.

[Scuro]

^
|
|
|
1. That is why its a necro post, and that is why this post kinda should of died out. Because we are just going to get into the senseless debate for those that are for /RDM, and those that are for /NIN. Although both are very good subs for BLU, this is going to go nowhere. It doesn't even cover the original idea of subjobs for BLU, it pretty much has boiled it down to /RDM vs /NIN GO!
2. This post is not on the front page, I by no means see this near the forum trackers, all it is, is in the BLU section of the forums. So front page? What are you talkin about? Highlighted in red for the frequent amount of posts.... Yes, yet as I stated that was a MONTH ago.
3. Complaining? You've been here 7 posts and your going to say all I do in these forums is complain? Haha Ya...... No.
4. how about you read 4 pages back and realize that I am by no means over reacting, and you have clearly walked into a dead topic, that will not go one side or the other. Its literally an endless stalemate that one side will not prove to the other that one side is better then the other. Its at this point that debating a topic becomes pointless when neither side will reach a compromise.

So in short, let a topic that is going nowhere.... Stay NOWHERE. K, Thanks =)

[Defiledsickness]

the reason you should never ever recommend /rdm for a DD blu is because people will just spam spells, convert, spam spells. it's one thing to zerg but another to get yourself killed, feed an NM tp, and end up wasting all your MP on curing because you stole all the hate. or wast the whm's mp.

there's not enough of a point to /rdm if you're only purpose is to DD. may as well /war.

/rdm can be all well and good, just make it situational. unless you are using a PDT- build, no RDM magic will do anything for you and the only purpose is for fast cast, MAB, and convert.

[Scuro]

Yes this I can agree with Defiled, I full well understand /RDM is not a subjob to be held above all else as the grand master. No. Many other jobs are well suited, but as /RDM have their situations. While I will admit for solo purposes and tanking I would argue that /NIN is where its at hands down. /RDM is nice, but it just can't compete with /NIN. Thats the problem with this debate is that its far to black and white for a job that is meant to be grey.

[renasci]

2. This post is not on the front page, I by no means see this near the forum trackers, all it is, is in the BLU section of the forums. So front page? What are you talkin about? Highlighted in red for the frequent amount of posts.... Yes, yet as I stated that was a MONTH ago.
3. Complaining? You've been here 7 posts and your going to say all I do in these forums is complain? Haha Ya...... No.
4. how about you read 4 pages back and realize that I am by no means over reacting, and you have clearly walked into a dead topic, that will not go one side or the other. Its literally an endless stalemate that one side will not prove to the other that one side is better then the other. Its at this point that debating a topic becomes pointless when neither side will reach a compromise.

/sigh, forum ate post

2)the FRONT PAGE of the BLU FORUM

4)I read the entire thread. This should be abundantly clear by my post referencing Zagen's post on the page immediately prior. Prothscar and Zagen both strike me as being both knowledgeable, and (equally important) coherent. They justhappen to be on opposite sides of the fence (which led to the debate getting somewhat heated)

3) Post Count =/= Join Date. The rabid tone of your posts is rather tiresome.

Further, I said all you did in this THREAD was complain. Which really only reinforces my perception that you don't read the posts you respond to very carefully, as you are too eager to get to the reply button and hear your self type

[Scuro]

Well hey, the forum needs people to be wrong too renasci, glad you stepped up to assume that role. You set for the punch first with a statement less then civil so you brought it upon yourself. Your clearly derailing a thread that you necro'd to begin with by making it more so of a vendetta you have because I may have "hurt your feelings". Also, I didn't complain until you nero'd a dead topic, and yes I love hearing myself talk. It makes it better to read myself then to have to read slanderous jargon spouted out by others. =)

Anyway, I find myself done here, all this will end up being is a p**sing contest between /NIN and /RDM like it was when it ended A MONTH AGO. Now its going to jump between that and those of us that are quick to slander others.

[renasci]

Anyway, I find myself done here, all this will end up being is a p**sing contest between /NIN and /RDM like it was when it ended A MONTH AGO. Now its going to jump between that and those of us that are quick to slander others.
I must say, I'm impressed, it's awfully big of you to admit this about yourself.

[Geebee]

is IT STIll NINJA or RDM?

Of course this totally depends on the situation you are heading into, if you are solo 90 DD MNK then /DNC can be amazing, but this totally depends on your current level and of course the list jobs you have leveled to pick for subs in the 1st place,
if you are a low level say 50 or below then the best 2 sub jobs ive found are /BLU (with all the spells for you need) or /RDM (great for the enhancing spells) but if you are lower then /BST is very hard to beat (the exp comes thick and fast)

but as far as current game play, your job, party members jobs and availible atmas make it hard to answer your question but I would stick to /DNC or a mage sub (I do), I have found that NIN is only helpfull in certian situations as you will only use the sub for shadows and a large majority of mobs in abyssea and elsewhere will strip them almost as soon as you have cast them, wasting time and tools, /DNC is much better then /NIN as a sub as you get at level 45
* Cure I, II and III
* Curga
* Erase
* Sneak and invis
* Haste samba
* Drain Samba I and II
* 3 forms of Steps, Evasion down, MAB down, Defence down
* Referse flourish
(plus others ive forgotten) :P

[kenshyn]

Played with /thf tonight since cdc is such a beast I think sexy is back imho lol...

Basically TA CDC on Tank for 2-3k or more then SA+BT for 5-6k and get darkness for same its a blast....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/SexyIsBack2.jpg

Oh like to add proc red is pure profit lol makes using SA a breeze lol...

[Ryozen]

/RDM is the premier support job for Charged Whisker burning.

With proper gear, buffs, and atma, BA+Charged Whisker can deal upwards of 5-6k damage to everything within range.

The damage dealt is limited only by how many mobs one can gather together (or have gathered together) within the 2:00 recast on Burst Affinity.

Total damage dealt per minute could easily exceed that of typical sword-swinging, CDC-and-spell-spamming /NIN damage dealing.

If the above is true, then /RDM is the premier damage-dealing support job.

[kenshyn]

Yeah rdm is ok if your aoeing but heck I get those same numbers doing it /thf /nin whatever its more atma then sub job and if ur doing it solo or not charged whisker on glavoid and see how far that gets u.

[Prothscar]

If the above is true, then /RDM is the premier damage-dealing support job.


charged whisker on glavoid and see how far that gets u.

This. I've already said that /RDM is best for whisker burning, in fact I have an entire guide on the subject. (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/20806/azure-lore-a-guide-to-aoe-burning-on-blue-mage) As kenshyn said, try doing that on anything other than AoE burn mobs. It won't work.

[Ryozen]

Never once did I suggest using Charged Whisker on a single mob.

I was providing a literal answer to the question proposed in the thread topic, albeit not in the manner that the OP had probably intended.

[Ryozen]

And by definition, you won't get the same numbers /THF or /NIN as you would /RDM, as they do not provide Magic Atk. Bonus II.

[saevel]

Difference between MAB I and MAB II is 4 MAB, which after everything is said and done is less then 4%. Assuming 30 MAB in gear and 50 MAB from Ultimate Atma and no Memento Mori (just for simplicity), 100 MAB vs 104 MAB. (2.04/2.00) = 1.02, or 2% difference. The more MAB you get the less that 4 MAB from sub means. In actual use the difference will be non-perceptive, you'd need a parser over a few hundred casts to detect any difference.

/NIN = DW3, DW3 = 25% DW. Shadows are ok for the times their useful, otherwise I couldn't care less.
/RDM (/THF, /WAR, /WHM) = DW2 = 15% DW

With Suppa you get 30% DW vs 20% DW.
100/70 = 1.428 (42.8% increase in DPS from DWIII)
100/80 = 1.25 (25% increase in DPS from DWII)
1.428/1.25 = 1.1424, DWIII is effectively 14.24% Melee DPS increase over DWII. The points you save from not having to set DWII you can spend in +10% DA, where as /RDM would be required to spend both the points for DA and DWII. Normally I'd give RDM more credit for it's free MAB, but MAB can be as low as 3 points with 4 being more common using Dream Flower.

Honestly the only way I can justify /RDM is if I need to use healing magic. Blue cures are calculated ~exactly~ the same way White Magic cures are. Thus having healing magic skill from sub significantly enhances the amount of HP cure on all healing spells. WoP / H.Breeze / P.Embrace / M.Fruit are all pretty powerful when your /RDM or /WHM.

[Atomic_Skull]

DW3 has only further cemented /NIN as the only subjob for 1H DD's

[Fyreus]

I've always used /nin then i found this amazing sub called /dnc. I personal use it for utility and it also offers the missing 5% weapon delay (without tp penalty lol) but since this update it's been pretty good on zerging something real quick. WS > cast > reverse tp DURING melee > WS > cast. I haven't tested CA > cast during azure lore (incase anyone asks you can't blu cast > blu cast for self sc) but in the end it's really situational.

If you're fighting something that hits fast, aoe spell/tp/ws, or terribad enfeebles and you're a blu main then this sub definitely helps. If doing abyssea then you can also /rdm especially if aoe farming for ki. The list simply goes on and on even as th3 /thf.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Er what? Using steps/flourishes lowers your DoT pretty badly especially since you're not a dnc main, so you aren't getting that delay reduction for 'free'.

[kenshyn]

Well /thf for me is pretty much all win went from doing this on bombs farming for ft seals:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/bt82k.png

To Farming time on worms in La thiene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/Cwsubbedthf.png

So to me sexy is back in play again...

[Ravenmore]

Who cares about BNS when your fighting lol trash seal mobs really thier half dead by time you get a proc half the time. Gl trying to get CW off on anything that absorbs dmg durning tp moves or spellcasting. The risk of healing is to high for to much HP that could be healed.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's why you wait for red proc then unload while it can't do anything. Apparently.

[Ravenmore]

That's why you wait for red proc then unload while it can't do anything. Apparently.

Thinking this is sarcasm but hard to tell on here some times, but by time you get CW off you could had spamed Quad. continumm, Goblin rush detla thrust, whole number of spells (fyi those are the spells I remember how to spell off the top of my head your results may differ). And now that those spells with Skill chain will each other under Azure Lore far more dmg to be had.

[Ryozen]

Except that for most targets that are worth killing, you'd be lucky to get more than a few hundred damage each from those spells, due to how poorly physical damage spells fare against mobs with half-decent DEF or levels much above your own.

And if you're 'spaming' a mob that has absorb phases, you're not remedying the situation you proposed.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't even bother using physical spells on non trash mobs outside of CA/Efflux/potentially 2 hour, haven't tested it, if I was /thf then that too.

[Kwate]

I don't even bother using physical spells on non trash mobs outside of CA/Efflux/potentially 2 hour, haven't tested it, if I was /thf then that too.

Disseverment, BT, and DT are the only ones worth casting on an NM type mob for their additional effects without CA or EFF imo.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Should have mentioned Diss/BT as well, but for pure damage it just got depressing using non buffed spells on worthwhile mobs so I just cast those and focused on DD.

I've never had DT's plague hit a NM, must just be me.

[Zagen]

Thinking this is sarcasm but hard to tell on here some times, but by time you get CW off you could had spamed Quad. continumm, Goblin rush detla thrust, whole number of spells (fyi those are the spells I remember how to spell off the top of my head your results may differ). And now that those spells with Skill chain will each other under Azure Lore far more dmg to be had.

You're telling me that you think our other spells can do 5932 x 15 = 88,980 in 5 seconds?

My CW are a bit higher now but that's the last number I have a screenshot in mis. coast where my friend and I farm atm and 15 is the largest pull i can remember counting the deaths on vs. exp gained.

Don't get me wrong playing Azure Lore to make a long chain in the 30 seconds it is up will be fun but I can do that damage with Charged Whiskers every 90 seconds and the damage is only limited by the size of the pull.

Edit: If you're talking about CW on trash NMs then LOL you're doing it wrong CW is for AoE farming. Also since you're there likely to proc your damage will be worse than normal regardless due to setting spells and losing time from setting them or losing stats/traits from having all 3 possible spells set ahead of time.

[Kwate]

Should have mentioned Diss/BT as well, but for pure damage it just got depressing using non buffed spells on worthwhile mobs so I just cast those and focused on DD.

I've never had DT's plague hit a NM, must just be me.

huh? we need to get you a pair of MACC sticks asap!!!:p

[Neisan_Quetz]

Screw those swords >< Str/Dex alone make me want to punch a wall, and PDT sword is on hold as is.

Full Macc merits atm anyway, changing them later.

[Ravenmore]

You're telling me that you think our other spells can do 5932 x 15 = 88,980 in 5 seconds?

My CW are a bit higher now but that's the last number I have a screenshot in mis. coast where my friend and I farm atm and 15 is the largest pull i can remember counting the deaths on vs. exp gained.

Don't get me wrong playing Azure Lore to make a long chain in the 30 seconds it is up will be fun but I can do that damage with Charged Whiskers every 90 seconds and the damage is only limited by the size of the pull.

Edit: If you're talking about CW on trash NMs then LOL you're doing it wrong CW is for AoE farming. Also since you're there likely to proc your damage will be worse than normal regardless due to setting spells and losing time from setting them or losing stats/traits from having all 3 possible spells set ahead of time.

I seem to had miss read a post a page back. Thought they had said some thing of using it on glav. Then the poster that quoted me went on to add the red proc line and since its hard to tell some times if it is sarcasm, so I went on to explain. Since every thing in abyssea is trash our spells do very nicely on with no need for the hell that /thf can be just to feed the BNS.

[kenshyn]

It's basically keeping up with the joneses pretty much when the rudra storming thf and dnc pulling out 6k ws, The ukko Fury warriors doing ungodly damage, the victory smite MNKS, almost all can easily hit 5k - 9k WS. We have to TP FEED like crazy for our damage to matter on mobs.

What /THF does is allow us to do amazing damage with barely no TP feed. Mobs don't live long now a days so /thf puts us back on the map simply without feeding a mob great amounts of TP.



Why in the world would a low-man group want a BLU/THF? If the BLU isn't the tank or a mule there for procs, it shouldn't be there.

First of all, my english is really bad so excuse me for this @_@

Well with a low man group, so we say mnk whm blm blu for cover almost all procs, there aren't other dd expetion of mnk so no one interrupt self sc.
15k with recast of CA and efflux of course, with no efflux a average 11-12k a sc but you can spam cdc when those are down so is always fun and kill more faster the NM ;)

sure if you are don't prepared you dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeee many many time but if you are a good blu, tank even with /thf until the tank take back hate.

here a pics with damage /thf, those on raja and rani with 2h, 10k+ set proc. Common atma APOC RR and with benthic GH, with vanity SS

Lose meele dot i know but i like play in this way so i'm ok with this :3

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4946/powaw.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/171/powaw.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


You can sit on the backline or get front an center the choice is yours DOT is dieing in a game where most mobs don't live long and TP feeding is just the bane of fighting most big things so yeah BNS yes please it certainly makes us viable for killing anything quickly and painlessly.

With my crew the hardest thing in most fights is still procing that's it once the mob is procced the mob is normally dead in 1 - 5 minutes and that's most anything now a days. Holding the mob and not killing it is the painful part from my experience the damage done today is just insane heck my warrior without a emp weapon easily does 4k Raging Rushes sub ninja lol.

Also note I am not talking fighting trash unless all mobs in Abyssea are trash lol the easiest thing to do is normally we Proc blue yellow then red and zerg kill the mob since it is frozen and goes down super fast once the procs are done heck can even take wyrms from behind once red is procced lol.

I do say hey I miss the sneak and invisible tho hurts my wallet lol. The OP question is best DD (Damage Dealer) imho in todays game /thf on blu is hard for anyone to beat including other jobs emp weapon users...

[Ryozen]

If you think /THF makes BLU a top-tier DD, you're kidding yourself.

[Ravenmore]

When has loltp feed been a problem lately. Only reason not to feed TP in abyseea is to make procing easier. On top of you got to keep the mob alive long enough to proc in the first place, even mobs like raja and rani will take a lot of damage just trying to get the proc. So guess what you won't be doing before getting the proc. After you get the procs its a race to the finish, you'll do so much dmg waiting for SA to come back up. You can feed you BNS all you want but what happens if some one moves the mob before you cast. Nothing thats worth a crap to fight right now is made harder cause of TP feeding.

[kenshyn]

Wow if that's your only response I am done that logic or better yet lack of logic just blows me away. If the op question is answered by that load of awesomeness yep /thf sucks its horrible for any one. But I guess I will keep having fun with it since its fast efficient damage with little effort such a bad thing....

[Zagen]

Wow if that's your only response I am done that logic or better yet lack of logic just blows me away. If the op question is answered by that load of awesomeness yep /thf sucks its horrible for any one. But I guess I will keep having fun with it since its fast efficient damage with little effort such a bad thing....
ITT: Truth about TP feed rate being meaningless is not a logical argument.

FYI if people cared about TP fed everyone would go back to SAM/THF Meditate > SA WS days LOL

Edit: Forgot BLU/THF since you don't need TP to use a spell with SA :D

[Prothscar]

5-6k spells every 60 seconds makes /THF the thing that's "bringing sexy back"? When was there sexy, and where did it go? Furthermore, have you been in a party with a DRG or a WAR? 5k in 60 seconds is not fast OR efficient damage.

[kenshyn]

Nah a blue doing 5k 6k 8k 10k+ /thf for less than 100 mp or a 15K+ self skill chain certainly isn't sexy http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4946/powaw.png nothing about that is sexy at all. Yep and funny they invented things called parsers I hear and I would never ever see a blu lead one of those against those badasses or would I.

Mobs die fast I help kill fast and when SA isnt up I still have my other spells or CDC to hit the mob with shocking I do way more than just SA once a minute if I choose.

/nin amazing dot destroys those numbers I am sure of that hey I read it on the net.....

[Zagen]

Nah a blue doing 5k 6k 8k 10k+ /thf certainly isn't sexy http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4946/powaw.png nothing about that is sexy at all. Yep and funny they invented things called parsers I hear and I would never ever see a blu lead one of those against those badasses or would I......
I'd love to see one with a good WAR, MNK, or DRG go up against a BLU/THF... though I don't think the BLU is gonna come close. I'd love to be proven wrong though :)

[Ravenmore]

I'd love to see one with a good WAR, MNK, or DRG go up against a BLU/THF... though I don't think the BLU is gonna come close. I'd love to be proven wrong though :)

IDK seen some post of 27k in 35 sec using the changes to our 2 hour and <wait> being able to stuck at the end of the line. Setting up the double darkness though the 30 sec of the 2 hour then closing the deal with CA+effux to quad, continum. Its in the blu fumors on Alla if you want to check it out. One said he took out that on bird NM in la thiane in that time. Don't know what sub though.

[Ryozen]

BLU has always excelled at killing stuff that doesn't matter.

BLU struggles to keep up when DDing anything that requires anything more than basic attack values.

The Azure Lore change is pretty awesome, but when those same spells are doing 500 damage, it's not really going to matter.

[kenshyn]

If I only did 500 damage with my spells I go and hide in shame funny if that's the perception give me a mob that matters? I guess Rani, Raja, Sobek, pankratokor and orthrus don't since we can hit them between 3.7k - 6k with ease. What mob matters? That we can't hit hard I really like to know it's been a long long long time since I only did 500 damage on a mob actually I can't recall Hell maybe when I first hit 75 right after the job came out >.>. I used cannonball to rape stuff back in the day lol that was when 1k damage was amazing.

Note I am only mentioning mobs I have screen shots of the actual damage which I post and not talking out my butt. If my spells don't hit for at least a 1k I won't cast them unless they debuff or stun the mob lol. Now a spell like divisserment can be all over the place but its poison is just nice added dot that most nothing calculates in a parse.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4946/powaw.png

sniff sniff smells like pure troll I must not feed I must not feed....

I have 14 90 jobs Blu by far played and geared correctly is far from a weak sister or I never touch it, I would easily focus full on war, drg, sam, blm, yada, yada, and yada. If a blu can only pull max 500 damage on a spell on anything that matters that others are hitting for way way more damage that's just a bad blu lol....

[kenshyn]

Some old school Before all the new fancy toys we have to day:

Please NOTE this from when 1k damage use to mean something and was like whoa lol not today its above 9000 with ease.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/glennxi/behevc.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/glennxi/sacavckb.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9241/cannonhw3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/glennxi/bluvertcleavebahamut.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1171/cannonballalsaca1414mo6.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/glennxi/vcseiryu.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/glennxi/faithvc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/Omega_dmg_img_20080206_193222.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/cannonballThisUtaruBiatch.jpg



Memory lane....


The gear we have today is just insane in comparison to what we had at 75 so again what mobs???

Blu On brew:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/Blu_Vs_Shinryu_ffxi_20110105_23.jpg

Yep we always been weak >.> if you didn't know how to play the job.

[Zagen]

IDK seen some post of 27k in 35 sec using the changes to our 2 hour and <wait> being able to stuck at the end of the line. Setting up the double darkness though the 30 sec of the 2 hour then closing the deal with CA+effux to quad, continum. Its in the blu fumors on Alla if you want to check it out. One said he took out that on bird NM in la thiane in that time. Don't know what sub though.

Those are some nice number but that 27k happens every 2 hours, 2 hours is a long time for a DD to catch up and blow a BLU out of the water over the coarse of a longer fight or several fights. This is great for zerging but what happens when your group decides to zerg several pops of an NM, for example last night my friends and I popped 9 sobeks back to back. While MNKs, WARs, lots of Emp toting other DDs keep on chugging away on their crazy damage without the need of 2hours BLU falls behind.

I just got CdC last night, played around with it and seeing 4k WS go off from BLU which hadn't even bothered change my spellset from Whisker setup was very nice and impressive as until now only spells have spiked that high before. However my Widowmaker WAR has been doing Raging Rushes that have reached up to 6.1k for a while now.

When someone says BLU/THF not only beats BLU/NIN for DDing but can beat "heavy DD" jobs I don't buy it. I'd love to be proven wrong though, I'll gladly send apologies and praises followed by a lot of questions so that I may get close to that caliber of damage on BLU myself.

[Ravenmore]

Those are some nice number but that 27k happens every 2 hours, 2 hours is a long time for a DD to catch up and blow a BLU out of the water over the coarse of a longer fight or several fights. This is great for zerging but what happens when your group decides to zerg several pops of an NM, for example last night my friends and I popped 9 sobeks back to back. While MNKs, WARs, lots of Emp toting other DDs keep on chugging away on their crazy damage without the need of 2hours BLU falls behind.

I just got CdC last night, played around with it and seeing 4k WS go off from BLU which hadn't even bothered change my spellset from Whisker setup was very nice and impressive as until now only spells have spiked that high before. However my Widowmaker WAR has been doing Raging Rushes that have reached up to 6.1k for a while now.

When someone says BLU/THF not only beats BLU/NIN for DDing but can beat "heavy DD" jobs I don't buy it. I'd love to be proven wrong though, I'll gladly send apologies and praises followed by a lot of questions so that I may get close to that caliber of damage on BLU myself.

In abyssea you have to get lucky with ISL chest but or other means, but it really nice to final have a 2 hour that does something.

[Zagen]

In abyssea you have to get lucky with ISL chest but or other means, but it really nice to final have a 2 hour that does something.
I don't like dealing in "luck" solutions to make BLU a top DD XD though I couldn't agree more Azure Lore finally having a good noticeable use is great :)

[kenshyn]

AL was far from useless in the past now its beyond great imho AL was how old school Got BNS /thf of course: http://killingifrit.com/forums/topic/127610-blue-mage-endgame-guide/

Funny if you see in the screen shots I posted those aren't just pretty spikes they are pretty normal from what I been doing if I don't hit em for 5-6K I am pissed and that's without tp. So its CDC 2k-3k average BT 5-6k+ average darkness for 6k no 2 hour needed self skill chain. Yeah that's just not good with wars avg ws 6k happening what every 10 seconds? or does it take time to build tp? I wish my 4 - 5 hit build war pulled that off it feels like 10 seconds between swings lol plus the time to hit all my JA's war does have more than a few it takes me two macros to WS >.>. I am one of those wars from circa 2003 been a card carrying ridill user for many years....

If I don't do at least 5K+ average something is extremely wrong now hitting for 8k+ spikes is very nice. I will keep posting we been on a break since I got my almace peeps kind of burned out. For me its easy /thf is just fun to play hey 8K+ hate free damage yes please opps maybe you shouldn't stand behind the mob sucker.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/NopeCantdodd.png

[Zagen]

AL was far from useless in the past now its beyond great imho AL was how old school Got BNS /thf of course: http://killingifrit.com/forums/topic/127610-blue-mage-endgame-guide/

Funny if you see in the screen shots I posted those aren't just pretty spikes they are pretty normal from what I been doing if I don't hit em for 5-6K I am pissed and that's without tp. So its CDC 2k-3k average BT 5-6k+ average darkness for 6k no 2 hour needed self skill chain. Yeah that's just not good with wars avg ws 6k happening what every 10 seconds? or does it take time to build tp? I wish my 4 - 5 hit build war pulled that off it feels like 10 seconds between swings lol plus the time to hit all my JA's war does have more than a few it takes me two macros to WS >.>. I am one of those wars from circa 2003 been a card carrying ridill user for many years....

If I don't do at least 5K+ average something is extremely wrong now hitting for 8k+ spikes is very nice. I will keep posting we been on a break since I got my almace peeps kind of burned out. For me its easy /thf is just fun to play hey 8K+ hate free damage yes please opps maybe you shouldn't stand behind the mob sucker.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/NopeCantdodd.png
When you use Sneak Attack, or even Chain Affinity the damage a spell does is considered "spike" because without those it won't do that much damage normally.

Edit: Are you trying to say as a BLU you're doing 36k (6k * 6 since you said every 10 seconds) every minute nonstop? How? On what?

With 0 Haste Widowmaker takes 8.6 seconds to swing. "with 0 haste" should never ever apply.

Realistically you'd have 24% Haste in gear and Haste spell for 39% haste giving you a 5.16 second swing, far from "feels like 10 seconds"

Add in /SAM Hasso and BRD's Marches (standard for zergs imo) and you're rocking 70% haste giving you a 2.49 second delay. Cap your Equip haste and that drops down to 2.4 seconds so not visually noticeable but still slightly faster.

[kenshyn]

/facepalm lol No where do I state a blu doing that every 10 seconds on the 10 second swings man basically if you move from any duel wield class like thf, nin, dnc, and even blu all capped haste and under bards grabbing a big nasty 2 hnder is slow as hell unless your under a bards 2 hr with capped gear haste and haste on ya. I swear I feel like today many of my classes have hundred fists with multi attacks.

Basically its about Weapon skill frequency of a war can pull off vs spell spam SA+CA+Efflux and WS frequency of a blu/thf if you think your destroying a good blu in damage well that's not really a good blu lol. You see my damage that I am getting from actual screen shots taken I will get some glavoids hopefully tonight against wars and a rudra storming thf but I see it won't really matter anyhow.

I am a 90 war pretty damn well geared (twilight/bullwhip belt/goading/askar body/af3+2 gear) capped haste if I want or 4 hit build lol amazing ws gear and know someone who parses damage a lot not me since it is it against the tos >.>. A good blu can bring pain pretty easy....

[Zagen]

/facepalm lol No where do I state a blu doing that every 10 seconds on the 10 second swings man basically if you move from any duel wield class like thf, nin, dnc, and even blu all capped haste and under bards grabbing a big nasty 2 hnder is slow as hell unless your under a bards 2 hr with capped gear haste and haste on ya. I swear I feel like today many of my classes have hundred fists with multi attacks.

Basically its about Weapon skill frequency of a war can pull off vs spell spam SA+CA+Efflux and WS frequency of a blu/thf if you think your destroying a good blu in damage well that's not really a good blu lol. You see my damage that I am getting from actual screen shots taken I will get some glavoids hopefully tonight against wars and a rudra storming thf but I see it won't really matter anyhow.

I am a 90 war pretty damn well geared (twilight/bullwhip belt/goading/askar body/af3+2 gear) capped haste if I want or 4 hit build lol amazing ws gear and know someone who parses damage a lot not me since it is it against the tos >.>. A good blu can bring pain pretty easy....

Firstly, I'm sorry I miss read part of what you said when it came to the 6k every 10 seconds.

The numbers I gave you are BRD March songs without Soul Voice that means every 2.5 seconds a WAR takes a swing assuming 0 of them DA every 12.5 to 15 seconds a WAR throws out a 3k+ Raging Rush on top of the damage those hits giving them TP are getting. In the time it takes for Sneak Attack to be ready again a WAR could do over 12k in WS damage alone tack on another 4-6k from melee hits. So your CdC 3k > B.Typhoon 6k > Darkness 6k (15k) just got smoked by the WAR's 16-18k damage in that minute. That's without even factoring in the 25-30% Double Attack and 15-18% Triple Attack they should be rocking or the damage bonus from the Double Attacks due to Widowmaker's bonus.

Stop taking Screen shots and start posting parses single time damage pissing contests are so 2005. You want to say you can do damage on par with a heavy DD with more than just 1 spell or 1 SC every time you have TP/JAs ready then prove it parse against a WAR, MNK, DRG, NIN of equal skill and under equal buffs. Your screen shots are meaningless because they are just 1 time damage event not how much damage you're doing over the course of a given event.

[kenshyn]

Arent Parsers illegal third party tools >.> lol more fun tonight at Glavoid:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/NightatGlavoid.png

Yep No way could I out parse anyone with damage like that its clearly unreal and getting Bhumi and the Limule together now that was sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet..........

Damn meaningless pictures that happen all night long every zone I enter I say its kind of fun wish my war or even BLM could do it. Just the sexy back blu....

I think parsers I hear on the grapevine need a new memloc or something of that sort but I never touch third party tools they illegal lmao.....

War is one hell of a killer and working on my boys Ukko Fury is why the night at the glavoid. So I get to go up against his ass soon as its done and his gear is pimp so it will be a fair fight just still he hates the fact I have the sexy twilight body on my war and he don't lol.....

Oh by the way wheres a pic of that out of the ass damage from just any old war really maybe a super elite one fully geared and ukkos, it was fun to watch tonight for it but it never happen the 18k in a minute from a widomaker. While I show mine I bet damn well you never done that just heard from a friend of a friend with one outlier screen shot if that. Its cool tho no pics of it or just more wishful thinking? I play with some pimps and hold my own otherwise I just make my Ukko now but blu is just way to much fun and dropping jaws.

Also just to add you want to add to my damage in a minute all I have to do is hit QC + GR + Dissverment all dump well over 1k into the mob not counting swords swings really do you even play this class???????

[Karbuncle]

Arent Parsers illegal third party tools >.>

I don't think they are. If they are its pretty retarded they release items that have hidden and latent effects and give us no built in parser or useful UI to test these things, and still expect us to find them out.

[kenshyn]

I don't think they are. If they are its pretty retarded they release items that have hidden and latent effects and give us no built in parser or useful UI to test these things, and still expect us to find them out.

If you read the actual TOS it's pretty clear. Many things that many PC players use now a days violate the TOS to be honest keeping ppl in the dark always seemed a part of exactly what SE wanted. Only this new kinder gentler SE has been more forth coming with info. In the past they never wanted to tell us anything lol.

On another note Thanks for the info on Nauls hopefully that won't get nerfed lmao so I stem from the better safe then sorry crowd had to many friends BANNED by SE cause of a giltch in the game and given up playing a game I been playing since 2003 because I post on a silly OFFICIAL forum would have me kicking my own ass...

In the damage game guess being an engineer you have to simply understand damage rate over time vs total mobs health or HP:

Person A does 8K person B does 3K damage and now needs to makeup 5K damage in the time frame given and if the mob only has 15K hit points its not possible to close the gap. I let the war pull so I can hit it from behind pretty dang hard at the start lol.

When I walk up /thf and one shot the mob person B now needs to make up the damage some where else cause that mob is now dead and person B can't damage it simply.

Its fundamental flaw in the I out parse you game. People that can front load damage will have a natural advantage over people that have to build up damage simply parse any zerg fight with Kracken club Drks. Drg is another Job that simply can front load a ton of damage. In the end parses can just be another form of cheap epeen as a Blu I can manipulate a parse all day by spell spam especially with MM. The simple fact I output over 18K on mob that has 50K HP in just 2 moves really hurts the chance of any other player exceeding that value unless only 2 people fighting the mob. I can show parses simply now a days the tank is number one dd cause the rest of us are waiting to proc before we unload and just tanking the tank can do 50% of the mobs health in damage leaving ppl with that much damage to makeup the mob health doesn't sustain it.

I loved the puller I had in a party bragging about his damage output in a parse he pulled with jumps and weapon skilled before the mob even got to camp not possible to make up that damage at all. He also came back to camp with half health lol. So yeah he lead any parse on birds without issue you could be easily matching his damage output but simply the mob doesn't have the HP to support you catching up.

PPL don't want to hear it but it's always been true... When Blu damage was small like the guy that said only 500 damage roflmao it was much harder but now with the gearing and numbers a blu can generate its not but you see so many Blu's that don't even have capped Blue Skill and merits cry about damage or didn't know what AL did for us makes me sad they have no idea what this wonderful job is fully capable of doing.

My pic show me hitting consistently above 5k should say something to people but it don't all jobs are one shotting mobs now I guess but funny I have 14 90 jobs fully geared and merited <3 LS HOCD and know that just doesn't happen my wars RR hit 6K once in awhile mostly 3k-4k my blu non sneak attack spells keep pace with that...

[Ravenmore]

Your fighting mobs with paper def that are close to being the same level as you are. While war drk and drgs won't be swinging as much as you thier reg hits are more then 1 handers crits with and thier crits are around 600 with out emp. weapons double damage. Untill you provide a parse your not proving anything. Bhumi is also a weak mob that when was released the level cap was 80, were 90 now. Its the same as going back and showing faffy what for, or kirin or any or the mobs that we are on the other side of level correction. You want to impress try showing the whole chat logs so people can add up the damage.

[Zagen]

Arent Parsers illegal third party tools >.> lol more fun tonight at Glavoid:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/NightatGlavoid.png

Yep No way could I out parse anyone with damage like that its clearly unreal and getting Bhumi and the Limule together now that was sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet..........

Damn meaningless pictures that happen all night long every zone I enter I say its kind of fun wish my war or even BLM could do it. Just the sexy back blu....

I think parsers I hear on the grapevine need a new memloc or something of that sort but I never touch third party tools they illegal lmao.....

War is one hell of a killer and working on my boys Ukko Fury is why the night at the glavoid. So I get to go up against his ass soon as its done and his gear is pimp so it will be a fair fight just still he hates the fact I have the sexy twilight body on my war and he don't lol.....

Oh by the way wheres a pic of that out of the ass damage from just any old war really maybe a super elite one fully geared and ukkos, it was fun to watch tonight for it but it never happen the 18k in a minute from a widomaker. While I show mine I bet damn well you never done that just heard from a friend of a friend with one outlier screen shot if that. Its cool tho no pics of it or just more wishful thinking? I play with some pimps and hold my own otherwise I just make my Ukko now but blu is just way to much fun and dropping jaws.

Also just to add you want to add to my damage in a minute all I have to do is hit QC + GR + Dissverment all dump well over 1k into the mob not counting swords swings really do you even play this class???????

I wonder two things what kind of WAR you are and what kind of WAR you're helping build Emp GA for if you find RR doing 3k damage hard to believe. I don't screenshot my WAR's damage because while it is good enough to pull hate from a Kannagi NIN it isn't as good as other full time WARs I've run with, so why bother.

I think its funny you talk about parsers being illegal you do understand taking a screenshot without using in-game print screen functionality (you know seeing the chat log) is illegal as well right?

The next time I'm on WAR I'll make sure to take a few screen shots of its damage. Don't worry I'm only ever on WAR for NMs so it won't be lolEXP mobs.

[kenshyn]

/facepalm
Rani, Raja, sobek, Sisyphus, orthrus, Dhorme Khimaira, amarok and ningishzida 0 def mobs >.> all around easy 5k /thf. I do realize its a lot of info to digest but yeah today was fun at lacovie o def I think not and I was hitting over 5k+ with its insane def. The screen shots of old world mobs was Blu/thf at 75 I be scared to see what we can do now at 75 I was hitting Behemoth with cannonball for 2k back then. That's when hitting 1k was special unlike today....

[Ravenmore]

Dude Parse or it didnt happen. All those mobs have paper def. Rani is a joke if you have half a brain, raja even more so really anymob is weak you not impressing any one. Also you friends expoilted a glitch same way the people who exploted the Wall of justice trick which is still in the game. IIRC parsers work by reading the damage displyed on the screen It. I remember people with out windower starting the parsers before starting PoL. FYI everything in abyssea can be duoed by a mnk + whm so the whole massive def is BS as well.

Taking your word on the old HNM since cutting and pasteing dmg SSs together is well not going to say. Really whole logs of every on in the party or go away no one with give to craps about it. Note I'm not saying you can't hit those numbers on blu buty saying you can keep up with emp wars is just lolol.

[Prothscar]

I DON'T EVEN.

[kenshyn]

/facepalm it wont matter basically no matter what I write post if rani and raja are jokes with paper defenses (maybe on brew) no matter what I parse would be said to be a joke any idiot with half a brain can win a parse if he knows what the hell he is doing with most any job.

If your blu is that weak I am sorry to hear that sub whm and be a healer cause if you play with blus capped skill and top gear you realize what the job can do and its pretty clear you have no idea the potential of this wonderful job. Once your blu skill can hit 421 and you have 5/5 af3+2 a emp weapon and carry more gear than you can shake a stick at you will know the truth lol. Wait I need to parse or it didn't happen to funny guess I fixed screen shots of other people posted on the net as well >.> god this class has one problem for sure the idiots that have no idea how to play it....


My wars 90 pretty damn pimp and working toward my emp weapon funny it was pimp before SE decided to gift us with drops like candy I compare my war with any on the net non emp users. Cause simply I had the job as main since 2003 >.> and know exactly how hard it hits and what it can do no question top tier DD but a great blu aint bad aint bad at all.....

I Pretty much enjoy pushing any job to its limit its what's really fun to me except thf its for my farming lol....

I really love the changes in the game except one so many race to 90 in abyssea and just are clueless about the job and many just will never learn what the job can do. Blu by far is more than just a pretty procing yellow job.

Can't wait for the update HNM spells and new job traits all I can say is sweeeeeeeet.....

/thread

[Ryozen]

So your rationale is, "BLU/THF is better than everything, and no evidence you can present can convince me otherwise."?

Also, a parser has no interaction with the FFXI itself. FFXI generates logs which are saved in the /TEMP/ folder. A parser simply reads these logs and interprets the data. The logs are simple text files. If you're curious, you can open them and read them for yourself.

Oh, but would Notepad be a third party program and forbidden by the ToS then? Oh shit!

[kenshyn]

So your rationale is, "BLU/THF is better than everything, and no evidence you can present can convince me otherwise."?

Also, a parser has no interaction with the FFXI itself. FFXI generates logs which are saved in the /TEMP/ folder. A parser simply reads these logs and interprets the data. The logs are simple text files. If you're curious, you can open them and read them for yourself.

Oh, but would Notepad be a third party program and forbidden by the ToS then? Oh shit!

Never said blu/thf is better than everything man reading comprehension must be impossible for people these days I said its better than other subs for blu for DD period when this started lol and any decent parser reads memory locations which is against the TOS.

If I post my logs you say I faked them or the other players are gimped pretty much see its no win......

It won't ever matter what I post or say aren't you the guy that says a blu couldn't do more than 500 damage >.> lmao....



BLU has always excelled at killing stuff that doesn't matter.

BLU struggles to keep up when DDing anything that requires anything more than basic attack values.

The Azure Lore change is pretty awesome, but when those same spells are doing 500 damage, it's not really going to matter.

Man what a quote so far I posted on almost every mob that ppl care about today but it doesn't matter at all after reading rani and raja have zero defense is just beyond me lol....


Lastly prove my screen shots didn't come from a sweet digital camera or weren't mailed to me from a friend lol.

Yeah attempting to get someone to OUT themselves on a OFFICIAL forum is awesome lol
heck I play on a ps2 or xbox lmao....
Again.
/thread

[Ryozen]

By "better than everything" I meant "better than any other sub." Sorry, I could've been much more clear on that.

And no, I said BLU physical spell damage has trouble keeping up on anything that requires decent attack values. Perhaps you should take another look at your 'reading comprehension' comment as well.

Blue Magic 'attack' is very difficult to boost. Anything with moderate DEF (read: anything that isn't a trash mob) will make the vast majority of BLU physical damage spells pretty fail due to this. Using CA/Efflux and/or forcing crit with Sneak Attack is a way to partially bypass this, but doing decent damage on one spell once a minute or every few minutes is hardly anything to brag about.

Melee attacks and WS will do much more damage on these, since normal attack values can be boosted with food/JAs/traits/rolls. As an Almace-holder, you really should learn when you need to be relying on CDC and riding the aftermath rather than spamming JAs and spells.

If you're only killing one mob and spending a good portion of the minute with your hands in your pockets, then /THF makes pretty numbers. In any other situation, /THF will fall behind.

Edit: I have no interest in exposing you as a ToS-ignorer on the Official Forum. You post in other places as well, and seem to have no interest in hiding the truth there when it comes to asking for help with third-party programs. It's pretty silly to play such games.

[kenshyn]

/facepalm Why would anyone on blu/thf not be using other spells or not engage the mob at all that's just silly to not engage and fight again it wouldn't prove anything to the closed minded they come up with more out they ass reasons to try to disprove anything I could provide.

Its pointless and simple math really if I hit for 6k on average once a minute or two ask yourself a simple question are you? You state blue attack well point me to a mob I can't hit hard with blu magic that any other physical damage job can.

lol again...
/thread

[Ryozen]

You're fucking kidding me, right? I'm not saying you're standing disengaged while everyone else is attacking, I'm saying the mob is dead.

Every time you cast a spell or use a job ability, there's a minimum one second delay before any other job ability/WS/spell, and a two second delay before auto-attack resumes. Every time you use a spell or JA, you're losing melee swings, the potential ODD procs from aftermath, and the TP you would have gained toward your next CDC.

On a higher-defense mob (Orthrus for example), BLU physical spells suffer from a lack of blue magic 'attack', causing low spell damage. Physical melee and WS, however, can be boosted significantly with physical attack and critical hit rate/damage bonuses from various sources, e.g., Berserk, Last Resort, Impetus, Blood Rage, COR rolls, and food. Red Curry Buns give ATT+150, which is a significant boost, and it's one of the few ways (along with Stalwart's Tonic) that a BLU can boost its own physical attack without wasting time casting.

If you are /THF, you're losing at least 10% Dual Wield, which equates to fewer melee swings, and fewer ODD procs. If you are trying to compensate with spamming even more spells apart from your SA+BT, you're losing even more damage due to the low return on physical spells against high-def targets and the pause afterward.

If you are getting no outside buffs, or are too cheap to use food, or if your NIN is less than lv45, then use /THF by all means. If you've got dual marches, RCBs, Stalwart's active, there's no way that /THF will come even close to /NIN. Casting physical spells will limit you even more.

[Prothscar]

/THF was useful on Kirin and kited fights. It no longer has a place in the game with the advent of current spells and CDC.

/thread

[Ravenmore]

/facepalm it wont matter basically no matter what I write post if rani and raja are jokes with paper defenses (maybe on brew) no matter what I parse would be said to be a joke any idiot with half a brain can win a parse if he knows what the hell he is doing with most any job.

If your blu is that weak I am sorry to hear that sub whm and be a healer cause if you play with blus capped skill and top gear you realize what the job can do and its pretty clear you have no idea the potential of this wonderful job. Once your blu skill can hit 421 and you have 5/5 af3+2 a emp weapon and carry more gear than you can shake a stick at you will know the truth lol. Wait I need to parse or it didn't happen to funny guess I fixed screen shots of other people posted on the net as well >.> god this class has one problem for sure the idiots that have no idea how to play it....


My wars 90 pretty damn pimp and working toward my emp weapon funny it was pimp before SE decided to gift us with drops like candy I compare my war with any on the net non emp users. Cause simply I had the job as main since 2003 >.> and know exactly how hard it hits and what it can do no question top tier DD but a great blu aint bad aint bad at all.....

I Pretty much enjoy pushing any job to its limit its what's really fun to me except thf its for my farming lol....

I really love the changes in the game except one so many race to 90 in abyssea and just are clueless about the job and many just will never learn what the job can do. Blu by far is more than just a pretty procing yellow job.

Can't wait for the update HNM spells and new job traits all I can say is sweeeeeeeet.....

/thread

The war is trash if you blu is out doing it. Hell even alla shot you down go post it on BG sure they need a laugh. Fraps is a third party tool as well but geuss what its not breaking. Nothing in abyssa and I mean nothing is hard for blu to do damage to but other jobs will do more.

[Covenant]

NOT to add fuel to the fire...but, many of a blue Mage "elemental" spells(and physical ones for that matter) offer amazingly potent, multi-debuffs(though slow and mp expensive). I think, most debuff rely on a high mind, while damage relies on high INT.

Not being an expert Bluemage, I think I have a general understanding(at least in my mind) that in order to get the most out of physical spells you need to pick a melee sub job and to get the most out of blue elemental you need to equip a Mage sub job.
That being said, a straight melee attack(/nin) is probably best for physical spells. While magic casting(/RDM) is best for elemental ones. However, no sub job offers a balance of strength to both sides of casting. Why not /THF? Every 1 min you could SA and TA one of the crazy physical spells such as goblin rush or death strike(two strongest I have so far). This would increase you damage over a ninja dual wield trait...I THINK. Does SATA work with AOE physical spells?
Interestingly enough, while staves offer increased MACC and MaB, is a 2handed stave better than 2 clubs say mythic for a total of +16 int AND MND? With dual wield trait(spell set) a RDM spamming "nukes" or debuffs or even /sch with use of /JA...parsimony?(whichever is decrease casting and recasting).
Not to mention that clubs give use access to (1) of 2, lvl 3 solo skill chains...namely, Light. With the other, Dark needed acces to mythic weapon.


As far as /dancer this one weird to me. Steps for defense down? Why can't you use corrosive ooze, enervation or other spells just once to get effect? As far as TP concerns... There various traits and gear that can quickly fill TP bar. Without the need to be constantly "stepp'n". Heck, even /dark with Absorb TP seems like a better option and having Souleater would be the clincher.
Though, I'm not knocking you...I'm all for versatility and enjoying oneself.

[Kwate]

I use various SJ for fun as /nin can be boring sometimes (but still my main SJ of course). /THF is fun as hell for seal NM's or other situations where you don't want a bunch of melee feeding the mobs TP. I personally use SACA + VD since I already have DEX builds for CDC and CW. I was popping 6-7.5k on glav, but /thf is situational at best but very fun.

I /mnk as well and it's a damn good tank with CS up and occult, you'll be surprised at how well this combo works. While Dodge is welcome, it's not ground breaking, boost + CDC is pretty cool as well.

I /dnc when solo'ing various NM's (very solid), only prob is limited red procs and no TH, so you'll be doing rinse and repeat fights if your item is a low drop rate.

I tend to use /rdm alot, even for lowmanned events like limbus, outside of CW farming, /rdm offers a lot of stability and complimentary spells, traits, abilities, etc. for blu.

Bottom line is we have various SJ, while /nin is the most solid choice, it's great to take advantage of some other choices, rather it's for a change of pace or just for fun.

[Raxiaz]

I take /THF to seal runs now. Anything else I'm practically /WAR or /NIN depending on what we're fighting. /DNC solo.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You have a lot of faith in PUG. If I don't know you, I'm subbing Nin. Sure, Seal Nms should die quickly - key operative being should - but with some PUG I've seen I don't take chances anymore. Thankfully, I'm nearly done seals for jobs I leveled so I don't even bother and just wait until I can ask friends to lowman it.