Ukko's Fury DD Atma Combos

[Shirkan]

Just like it says on the tin !

What atma are you folks using for Ukko's Fury or what do you recommend people should use ?

The past few days I've been reading a lot of forums, scraping up what scattered info I can.

So far I think RR and VV go well together, whats the best third option ?

What Atma combos ya'll doin to get the BIG WS numbers ?

[Neisan_Quetz]

RR and Apoc are your best options for damage dealing. 3rd best tends to be either Alpha/Omega or VV, although I believe VV has a lead for Ukko's over Raging where A/O was better the last time I checked.

[Sakima]

RR/AOA/VV 26% haste 5-hit. For any ukon war your highest fury so far? buffs etc? Highest single crit :P?

[hiko]

Atma of the Griffon's Claw? win for WS dmg idk if it make up for the dmg reduction in TP phase

[Dart]

atma of the scorpion queen, RR, Apoc

ukon 4 hit.

watch every other dd cry lol

[Andylynn]

atma of the scorpion queen, RR, Apoc

ukon 4 hit.

watch every other dd cry lol

Unless you have a source of regain, that's still a 5hit w/ cookie cutter 5hit/capped haste 4/5 AF3+2 set.
Just do VV, Apoc, RR, easy and puts out consistent good numbers.

[Dart]

nope not with carbonara.

Its my fault I assumed that everyone knows that when going for a higher x-hit build you're using carbonara. So that one is on me.

[Arcon]

nope not with carbonara.

Its my fault I assumed that everyone knows that when going for a higher x-hit build you're using carbonara. So that one is on me.

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something.. but for a 4-hit build with Lv.90 Ukonvasara you'd need 25/13 = 1.9207, so +93 Store TP?

0 WAR
+15 /SAM
+20 Atma of the Scorpion Queen
+6 Carbonara

= 41, meaning you'd need another 52 Store TP from gear alone:

+4 Rose Strap
+2 White Tathlum
+2 Almah Torque
+1 Attila's Earring
+1 Brutal Earring
+8 Ravager's Lorica +2
+4 Hoard Ring
+5 Rajas Ring
+6 Tactical Mantle
+5 Goading Belt
+5 Malagigi's Trousers

= 83, so still 10 short.

Am I missing something really obvious again? And this gear isn't even what I would use, just tried to max Store TP. This is (to my knowledge) the best Store TP gear a WAR can attain. Other gear would contribute better to both melee damage and TP gain (Double Attack and Regain gear for example). I don't see an Ukonvasara WAR attaining a 4-hit build without some additional Atma, Plaguebringe is the only of which that seems somewhat DD-worthy. I doubt it would make up for either RR or Apoc though.

[Dart]

plaguebearer (i'll admit to forgetting to say it, I was tired and grumpy) + queen + RR + carb

and you can use a pretty standard ukko's build, only need 2-3 pieces max that isn't the norm.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Giving up one good atma for a lower xhit is okay, 2 isn't.

[Dfoley]

Arcon, you forgot to include the ws tp gain, its not 25/13. Assuming you ws with /sam and average store tp gear on a ws your looking at +25-30 store tp on a ws.

Your looking at 18.2 tp if all 4 htis land.
So 100- 18.2 = 81.8 tp needed until you can ws again.

81.8/4 = 20.45
20.45/13 = 1.573 , so roughly 58 store tp during tp phase.
carbonara + sam + SQ = 41, so 17 from gear
+1 Brutal Earring
+8 Ravager's Lorica +2
+5 Rajas Ring
+5 Goading Belt

Puts you at 19, and if you wanna equip it all you can adjust for misses on the WS.


Personally id go rr/vv/apoc, ditch SQ and just get the 38 from gear / regain
+4 Rose Strap
+1 Brutal Earring
+8 Ravager's Lorica +2
+4 Hoard Ring
+5 Rajas Ring
+5 Goading Belt

For 27 + 15 for sam, 6 for carbonara = 48
---> 13*1.48 =19.24 per hit
4 hits gives 76.96
4 hit ws gives 18.2 (95.16 tp)

And the last 5 tp you will get from regain in the time it takes to make 4 swings.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Hmm, I calculated it differently from the beginning but the end result is the same, that checks out assuming initial + 1 additional hit lands which at capped accuracy will occur at least 90% of the time iirc.

[Leonlionheart]

Everyone creams their pants over lowering 6~5hit, but if you're using VV/RR/Apoc you have a 1/3 chance at DA and a 3/20 chance at TA procing. Even with barely a 6hit if TA procs twice you're 14~17 TP over 100, given regain ticks even at capped haste.

Maybe you're using spell cast or something that insures your WSing IMMEDIATELY after hitting 100%, but in high haste situations (Gear+Marches+haste+Hasso is minimum 5% away from cap if the bard is geared and skilled) even if your macro is /input exec war/ws.txt next line /wait 1 next line /ws "Ukko's Fury" <t> thats giving the player a .8 second chance to hit the WS button assuming you're paying great attention and don't care about using warcry or blood rage before your ws.

Not saying that getting that 5hit isn't the best because capping haste while lowering your xhit is the absolute best way to increase your damage, but for the average player its unnecessary. Plus on asura white tathlum is 2.5mil, no one does campaign so rose strap would be a nightmare to get nowadays, and you lose 35 attack on tactical mantle when compared to atheling during tp rounds.

5hit looks a lot better on a spread sheet than it does in practicality.

Given the opportunity to be at capped haste even though I use a 6hit (taking off 1stp would lower me into a 7hit) I take hate (cap it after the first two ukko's) get retaliation up and can constantly skillchain Ukko's for light without worrying about TP at all. All you need is a good WHM and BRD, and you practically make all other jobs in the game obsolete if not for proccing.

Don't get me wrong, 5hit should be your goal if all you do is warrior and can spend all your time playing FFXI getting it to be the best.

TL;DR: 5hit is time consuming to get if you start from scratch compared to a 6 hit and, in most cases where you are allowed to go all out, is rather over rated (though still the best).

[Leonlionheart]

RR/AOA/VV 26% haste 5-hit. For any ukon war your highest fury so far? buffs etc? Highest single crit :P?

Highest crit: 2255 (set proc I assume, on capped attack could probably do 2.5k)
Highest fury (Berserk/bloodrage): 12,372 (lol smiter) on a real mob 8.3k. Assuming TA capped attack and full crit. RR/VV/Apoc
Highest fury (No buffs) 7.3k. La Theine Leige is a really weak NM...

[Arcon]

Arcon, you forgot to include the ws tp gain, its not 25/13. Assuming you ws with /sam and average store tp gear on a ws your looking at +25-30 store tp on a ws.

I guess I had a different definition of an x-hit build. I thought it meant x hits from 0. This would include multi-hit WS as well, because on those you get a few extra TP, but usually have less Store TP gear on, so you could maintain your hit/WS ratio.

[hiko]

For 27 + 15 for sam, 6 for carbonara = 48
---> 13*1.48 =19.24 per hit
4 hits gives 76.96
4 hit ws gives 18.2 (95.16 tp)

And the last 5 tp you will get from regain in the time it takes to make 4 swings.
1) that is a 5 hit
2) with apoc and retalliation you will often swing 4times before getting 3tic of regain

[Ryozen]

in most cases where you are allowed to go all out, is rather over rated
You have this part backward.

[Dfoley]

1) that is a 5 hit
2) with apoc and retalliation you will often swing 4times before getting 3tic of regain

I was going on what arcon described of hitting 4 times to build 100 tp then letting a ws go. If thats what you want to call an x hit build fine.

3 hits + ws

With standard WS set: with all 4 hits landing, it will net you 18.2tp
that means you need to get 27.6 tp per hit, which requires 112 store tp. Which is actually worse then arcon had initially though. Even if you ws in your store tp set, its still impossible with current gear without giving up 2 good atma and WSing in your store tp set. Neither of which is a good idea.

On a side note: thats probably where arcons inital confusion came from when people were talking about 4 hit builds, they were thinking 4 hits + ws, not 4 hits including the ws.

[Leonlionheart]

You have this part backward.

No I meant what I said.

Soul Voice'd Marches + Haste + Hasso + capped gear haste = 80.8% Haste, reduces Ukon swings to 1.6 seconds per swing if TA procs once you should be at a minimum of 50.1 TP, starting from 0. At max it takes 9.6 seconds to get 100% TP, at minimum it takes 3.2, assuming no retaliation procs. If TA procs twice, you can constantly Skillchain with yourself.

All of that is not including any sort of TP from WS's, add that in, assuming both hits of Ukko's Fury connect and no DA or TA (Which is unlikely) you only need 5 swings, maximum of 8 seconds, minimum of 3.2, except this time it only requires 1 TA proc and 1 DA proc (hitting more than twice is more common than hitting once with over 35% DA and 15% TA).

If retaliation procs JUST ONCE you're cutting the amount of time between ws's severely and with haste this high most players, at least on PS2 and 360 and or not using windower, won't have time to change gear/ws to keep up with TP gain.

TL;DR: Higher the haste situation, the more useless everything other than haste becomes

[Ryozen]

You're speaking about your limitations, not the build's limitations.

[Mordanthos]

RR/VV/Stout STR FTW, modify that WS, all Apoc gonna do is allow you to get up after you die from pwning face. You asked for good Ukko Atma set, RR/VV/Stout

[Aurara]

RR/VV/Stout STR FTW, modify that WS, all Apoc gonna do is allow you to get up after you die from pwning face. You asked for good Ukko Atma set, RR/VV/Stout

This is the wrong answer. Do not listen to this. RR/SS/Apoc for best dmg.

[Rearden]

I'm showing w/2+3marchers, haste, Hasso, 5crit merits, rcurrybun the following:

lolRRVVStout:
DPS: 636.650
WS: 4178 (This is actually taken from the zerk down set, because this gimp atma combo actually requires gear changes with zerk up)

RR/SS/Apoc:
DPS: 801.864
WS: 4654


But at least I could get up faster

[Leonlionheart]

Quite a big dps difference, yeah anyone who says VV or Stout is best is a total noob

I played with a maschu war who used DA atma because she thought it was better than apoc...

wut

[Leonlionheart]

You're speaking about your limitations, not the build's limitations.

Actually now with the Crit hit Damage cap raised to 100%, 5hit is pretty bad compared to a good 6hit, but 5hit has always been pretty over rated

[Ryozen]

Actually now with the Crit hit Damage cap raised to 100%, 5hit is pretty bad compared to a good 6hit, but 5hit has always been pretty over rated

The two have no correlation.

[Leonlionheart]

The two have no correlation.

Are you serious?

Crit Damage cap increase is the reason why people don't go for 5hit anymore.

[Ryozen]

Crit damage cap is why people now use RR/SS/Apoc.

Gear for 5-hit vs 6-hit and which is ultimately better is another argument.

[Leonlionheart]

Crit damage cap is why people now use RR/SS/Apoc.

Gear for 5-hit vs 6-hit and which is ultimately better is another argument.

Gear for 5-hit includes 39 STP, you can only get 37 in gear which means you require VV (or moonshade).

5-hit was better DPS before the update,

6-hit is better now because you can use Adaman/Armada Hauberk + Claymore Grip to increase the effects of severely increased damage from crits

Outside however 6-hit was always better.

[Yandaime]

Hello, Clocking in here for a moment (yay for my first post) I would just like to quickly say that I have not been playing very much lately so I was not aware that the Crit Damage Cap was raised from +50% to +100% and this will definitely have an impact on my Atmas and possibly some gear settups that I use :p However, I must protest against changing from my 5-Hit Settup to a 6-Hit Settup for only +6% Damage Increase since other than Ravager's Feet, WAR only gets Cavaros Mantle and Claymore Grip. And to prove this, I will illustrate a "Perfect Scenario" to eliminate most variables to see which set has the higher Damage Output of the two. All Variables Eliminated are only ones that are completely irrelevant to the test.

Assume Ukonvasara
Assume 100% Accuracy and 100% Critical Hit Rate
Assume Base Critical Hit Damage is Fixed at 350
Assume Atmas are Raised Ruins, Sanguine Scythe and Apocalypse
Assume 29% Double Attack Rate and 15% Triple Attack Rate in Both the 5 and 6 Hit Builds (56:29:15)
Assume that a Revolving Hit Cannot Occur with Ukko's Fury (No 5/4 or 6/5 Hits)
Assume WS Damage on Ukko's Fury is fixed at 6000 for 5-Hit and 6360 (+6%) for 6-Hit
Assume +25% Haste Cap with both sets (you need +26% Gear to get this as we all know) and No other Haste effects

Ukonvasara Delay = 482 / 361 After Haste = 6.0 Seconds per Attack
3600 Seconds Per Hour = 600 Attacks Per Hour x (56:29:15) = 336+348+270 = 954 Swings Per Hour

::5-Hit::
Melee Damage = 623
Melee Damage per Hour = 594,342 per Hour
WS Frequency = 190 WS per Hour
WS Damage = 1,140,000 Damage per Hour (over a Million Damage per hour... so broken...)
Total Damage per Hour: 1,734,342 Damage Per Hour

::6-Hit::
Melee Damage = 644
Melee Damage per Hour = 614, 376 per Hour
WS Frequency = 153 WS per Hour
WS Damage = 973,080
Total Damage per Hour: 1,587,456 Damage per Hour

Difference: 8.46926384%

Sorry for the Mathletecism, but as you can see through this "Perfect Scenario" test, you can see that a 5-Hit's WS Frequency is Far too powerful to be undershot by a 6% increase to Critical Hit Damage. The only variable to this during an actual parse would be "Over-TPing" but I doubt that would be enough to cause more than 3% Data Flaw, much less 8.5%. Hell, Ill give you 5% lol but Im still not changing my Rose Strap+Tactical Mantle xD

[wish12oz]

Sorry for the Mathletecism, but as you can see through this "Perfect Scenario" test, you can see that a 5-Hit's WS Frequency is Far too powerful to be undershot by a 6% increase to Critical Hit Damage. The only variable to this during an actual parse would be "Over-TPing" but I doubt that would be enough to cause more than 3% Data Flaw, much less 8.5%. Hell, Ill give you 5% lol but Im still not changing my Rose Strap+Tactical Mantle xD

What is this I dont even...........

At least compare the right things.
Look at the gear you have to use for a 5 hit, then look at the gear for the almost optimal 6 hit.

5 hit:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/205808
6 hit:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/218925

To use the 5 hit you give up 9% DA, 3% critical hit rate, 22 STR, 15 DEX, 59 attack, 6 accuracy, 1% haste, and what you really gain is WSing every 10.5 seconds after making 5 attacks, instead of WSing every 12 seconds with 6 attacks. (or something to that effect, I forget the exact numbers and I cant seem to find where I wrote them down) The point is that you only gain about 17% damage moving from a 6 hit to a 5 hit, when you don't give up anything else, and you give up tons with Ukon to do it, so you're really only gaining about 8-9% damage like you said (in comparison to the old 6 hit). The problem is that everything you give up from the new 6 hit totals much more then an 8% damage increase. The DA and Crit rate alone that you're giving up total more then 8% damage, and then there's a bunch more extra stuff!

EDIT:::::::::::
This is also assuming you don't have to use Carbonara for the 5 hit, which I think you do, which is an increased loss of an extra 3 STR and 87 attack!
This also doesn't even cover the most important fact, with the 6 hit, you get to use armadaberk, which is nice to look at, unlike WAR AF3 body!

[Leonlionheart]

1. You're assuming you cannot over-tp, which would happen often since the high rate of DA and TA.
2. I'm not sure exactly what it would be, but even if you're using the 56:29:15 sample of NA:DA:TA it wouldn't exactly be that, since TA>DA>NA; the more TA you have, the less DA you have.
3. Also, it's every 7 seconds you spend 2 seconds WS'ing for a 6hit and every 8.75 seconds you spend 2 seconds WS'ing for a 5hit. So, simplified, its 9 seconds for 5hit and 10.75 seconds for a 6hit (At capped haste). The difference is completely minimal for a HUGE loss in stats.

[Yandaime]

Not really giving up too much honestly, or at least not as much as you suspect. Im not too interweb savy so forgive me for not having a nice, neat link but here goes.

Rose Strap
Ravager Orb
Zelus Tiara
Ravager Gorget
Brutal Earring
Ravager Earring
Ravager Body
Ravager Hands (I can switch to Timarli if I *REALLY* want to close out the Haste cap but I dont care unless im recieving additional haste, thats just me)
Hoard Ring
Rajas Ring
Tactical Mantle
Goading Belt
Ravager Legs
Ravager Feet.
and Yes, Carbonarra.

I will agree with you, in that getting +54 Store TP without using Carbonarra will cost cause a drawback, but as you stated, you still gain in the end. But that boils down to a philosophical debate about gear first, food second vs food first gear second and I dont care enough about the video game to go there. With this settup, I get the desired hit build with the least trade offs on gear, only losing 3% Double Attack where the Atheling Mantle would be and 9STR where the Ring would be and 10 STR where the Adaberk would be as well. So Im definitely losing some STR and Attack but our attack is so high as it is that I dont know of too many mobs where it makes a large difference or at least anything noticable during strictly TP gain. Not sure where your getting the 3% Critical Hit Rate however, since in Abyssea, dDex is pretty much capped by default altho I think you meant Damage and that was just a typo anyway. This whole things is washed out for WS but thats a given. I mean honestly at the end of the day I might be full of it anyway cuz with Apoc Atma and our really high DA together, we get TP in 3 or 4 Attack rounds on Average anyway, so whats the point? lol I just like to point out the math on equal situations sometimes is all which was 6hit vs 5hit with a difference in Critical Hit Damage.
And hey, if I wanted to cap my Attack, I can simply bypass the gear/food and just lug my BRD mule around LOL

[Leonlionheart]

Edit: lol oops wrong thread :<

[Leonlionheart]

Not really giving up too much honestly, or at least not as much as you suspect. Im not too interweb savy so forgive me for not having a nice, neat link but here goes.

Your "equal situations" are still wrong though, and there are too many factors that you don't account for.

[Yandaime]

Hmmmm I will admit I had not considered the WS Animation and I should have cuz Ukko's Fury has a very heavy animation. Ill have to run the tests more closely. Point withdrawn :p

[wish12oz]

Not really giving up too much honestly, or at least not as much as you suspect.

To use the 5 hit you give up 9% DA, 3% critical hit rate, 22 STR, 15 DEX, 59 attack, 6 accuracy, and 1% haste in gear, AND lose another 87 Attack and 3 STR from being required to use carbonara as opposed to red curry bun.

I can't even begin to understand how you say this is "Not a lot"

And seriously, I posted links to gear sets, if you don't understand where crit rate +3 comes from, all you gotta do is look at the links, it was not a typo. Claymore grip is win, especially when you run around with +70% crit damage. Your bard mule will not cap your attack on anything that matters, even if you used double minuet (which is stupid, marches are vastly superior) and cast dia2 on everything.

[Yandaime]

idk if you've looked at my set, but I will say again, Im only missing 3% Double Attack (not talking about the other stats listed, I already know about those) I don't know where that 9 is coming from. If I were missing all of those stats during WS, that would be a totally different Animal, but I find it hard to believe it makes too much of a difference while building TP, or if it does, you would need the aid of a Computer to see it, at which point, you are doing too much. :p Again, if you check the set I listed, you'll see that with using a different food, you can easily get a 5-hit without sacrificing anything more than a Ring, a Back Piece and a Grip. Haste is still capped, the Double Attack drops 3% but all in all not much has changed as far as building TP.
I'm getting out of it anyway not here to step on anyone's toes, just discussing my Opinion which I am now reconsidering because of Ukko's long Animation. And Ooops about the Claymore Grip, I confused it with Brave Grip very sorry about that. But while were on the Topic, I have been seeing a few WARs using Zahak's Mail instead of E Body/Ravagers any thoughts on Zahak's Mail? And yes, Leon the Fazheluo set is nice but I really don't like that Hat.. omg Rabbit Ears.. well mostly I'm just avoiding it because the crafters on this server are insane if they think I'm buying that set for a Total of 5.4 Mil :/

[Leonlionheart]

Berserk up, the difference is minimal between the two sets in terms of DPS.

Berserk down, however, the difference becomes quite large as you lose tons of attack, lowering pDIF which plays a large roll in DPS, since it multiplies damage by 0.0~2.0 When you have 500 Attack, and the mob has 600 defense, you're only doing 83.33% damage. However with 750 attack when the mob has 600 defense, you're now doing 1.25% damage. With RCB you should be reaching 750ish attack w/o any JA or Stalwarts on a 6hit set. So the DPS lost in TP rounds doesn't make up for the 8% addition from WS rounds.

[wish12oz]

Berserk up, the difference is minimal between the two sets in terms of DPS.

I never notice when I give up 182 attack either, thats so minmal, I bet it only increase damage like 1%.

[Leonlionheart]

I never notice when I give up 182 attack either, thats so minmal, I bet it only increase damage like 1%.

Depends on the mob, but generally these days Berserk up w/ 6hit is capped attack on things other than Heroes/Voidwatch.

So once you cap attack it doesn't matter as much, that's why they would parse closer to each other, even though 5hit is still pretty bad.

[Korpg]

Depends on the mob, but generally these days Berserk up w/ 6hit is capped attack on things other than Heroes/Voidwatch.

So once you cap attack it doesn't matter as much, that's why they would parse closer to each other, even though 5hit is still pretty bad.

If you have a million mobs whacking on you with Retaliation up, there isn't a huge problem, but I noticed that when you have an NM on you, a 5 hit build can self-light a lot more times than a 6 hit can. Which helps the kill speed a lot more imo. Despite the -att and less DA you get from a 5 hit build, you can still kill the NM a lot faster with a 5 hit than a 6 hit. Get Level 2 Aftermath more often too since you would have 200% TP more often with a 5 hit than 6.

But these are just my observations.

On a side note, I asked this on a different thread and got no response, maybe somebody here can tell me: What is the slow % on Ukko's Fury?

[Aurara]

No, 6 hit is better than 5 hit, we explained why stop arguing because you're wrong and making yourself look worse with each post.

[Leonlionheart]

Slow on Ukko's I believe is unknown. Probably around 10% I'd guess.

Additionally, 6 hit parses better overall than a 5hit. Especially outside where you don't cap fSTR and dDEX just be being there. You lose 35 attack and 3% DA in one slot for instance, and Attack can mean a hell of a lot.

Even inside it loses in a simple parse. I saw it explained beautifully in a thead on FFXIAH.com

Crits increase your pDIF by 1.0. Let's say the mob has 600 Defense. With a 5hit you have around 550. You're doing 91% of the damage you would be with a simple 6hit per hit. Your crits do 191% damage, before critical damage bonus. However when you optimize a 6hit you end up at around 850 attack, meaning your attacks do 141% damage, and crits do 241% damage.

On a 5 hit you lose out on both Crit Rate and Attack, so you're losing about 60% DPS in TP rounds, for a slight increase in WS frequency.

There's no two ways about it, 6 hit will win in terms of simple DPS. Plus there's the human error, over TPing and the like, which has a much wider berth when using a 5hit than it does a 6 hit.

[Neisan_Quetz]

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ukko%27s_Fury

You can thank Byrth and Phaffi for doing the testing.

Also supposedly 30% crit rate but small sample size of 200 WS etc.

[Glacont]

I've review the suggesstions on Uko Atmas. I honestly have nothing against any of them. RR SS Apoc being a very good exmple. However, the one combo that peaks My Intrest is Razed Ruins, Sanguine Scythe, and Gnarled Horn.

[Leonlionheart]

GH is plain out stupid for high-end WAR's.

Ukko's Fury: +30% Crit Rate base, RR +30%, dDEX+20%, Merits+5%

that's 85% right there, GH gives 20% which is over cap. HUGE waste of an atma slot compared to apoc.

(Note: Rancor Collar gives 5%, pushing you to 90%, the other 10% can be from Zahak's, Claymore Grip, Light Earring aug'd, Trophy Legs, N legs, any combonation of those. AND YOU WILL CAP CRIT RATE on Ukko's Fury. Apoc will make this shine even more, since TA can proc on Ukko's Fury)

[Yandaime]

Chiming in again, yea for WSing, Gnarled Horn is pretty much wasted potential, but in terms of Meleeing that Extra 20% goes further than 15% Triple Attack, that is STRICTLY Melee tho, when you factor WS damage, Apoc will win by a large margin. So if your like starting out a party dont wanna start WSing yet and dont mind changing Atmas, Gnarled Horn isnt a bad option for a "Pearl Jam" Oh, and I wanted to point out something that Ive been overlooking for Abyssea use, and probably alot of people over look this too...

Stalwart's Tonic / Gambir?

Yes I know, I know, its a Temporary item but after using these, Ive found that the Tonic is just about as strong as Bergressor if not stronger (with Berserk up + This I hit 999 so not exactly sure of the Attack Bonus, gotta check when I get home to actually see and ill let you guys know what I find) and it lasts a full 5 minutes. And in a party, we are replenished with Temporary Items very frequently so in Abyssea, you can reliably have this Temp Item in a Macro and expect it to be pretty much be there lol. And the Gambir is much stronger (probably twice as strong) as the Tonic but I couldnt see exactly how much because with Food up + Gambir attack = 999 so gonna have to go naked w/o food to see for sure.

The point in all this? This temporary Item will make up for the attack loss in using a 5-hit build more than likely or even it out enough so that if you wanted to, you could have your cake, and eat it too. Not saying any one way is better than any other way, just food for thought because no one has mentioned the Temporary Items yet and I honestly didnt even remember these things existed until 2 nights ago when I forgot my food at a raid lol

Edit:
Actually, if you wanted to you could just use the Temporary Items and never worry about buying food again! xD +25% to Attack (not sure exact % yet) with no cap? thats pretty damn good imo

Edit#2:
Cruor Buffs, NO Food, No JA Attack = 593
Cruor Buffs, No Food, No JA, with Tonic Attack = 741

thats +19.98% (+20%) Attack with no cap, I like it and the Gambir is probably +40% have to get ahold of another one to know for sure though

[Gokku]

were to start 20% crit is not beating out the 15% tripple attack when youve got a 75% base crit rate already.
That being said its pointless working on 5 hit when its trash outside abyssea. Temps is nice yes but you cant rely on it being up 24/7.

[Dirtyfinger]

6-hit is better than 5-hit & gnarled horn is a waste of time. You're also not factoring that TA not only increases weapon skill damage but it also increases the frequency. As said, the only time 5-hit is useful is if you're able to WS at approx 100tp every time, you're highly unlikely to do this with the sheer amount of DA/TA you have, so that excess TP contributes towards weapon skill damage.

So you'd be better of with a 6-hit which doesn't make any sacrifices, and possibly shorter delay to further your weapon skill frequency.

And yes, I know only too well about temp items as I have a masa sam :(

[Yandaime]

Actually, if you read what I said more closely, I was talking strictly about Melee...

Merits 5%
dDEX 20%
Razed Ruins 30%
Claymore Grip 3%
Rancor Collar 5%

thats 63% Critical hit rate base, adding Gnarled Horn will push that up to 83% (Atma boost caps at +50%?) which is very impressive for Melee DoT. Now you can simply check this on Paper to find that *FOR MELEE ONLY* Gnarled Horn > Apoc and ill show it here.

Its a safe assumption that WAR Crits 3x harder than our Melee hits correct? so we'll just say our Melee hits are fixed at 350 Damage making each Crit 1050 Damage
And cuz Im oldschool we'll just say its Bravura were using and not counting the hidden effect so
488 Delay - Gear Haste - Hasso = 317 Delay = 5.28 seconds per attack = 681 Attacks per hour
using a Rancor Collar, your DA Rate will be 29%

Ill start with Apocalypse Atma:
Swing Ratio (being Generous) 44:29:15
Swings per Hour: 300:394:306 = 1000 Swings per hour (lol 1000 Exactly)
Critical Hits per Hour (63%) = 630 Critical Hits and 370 Normal Hits
Normal: 370 x 350 = 129,500 Damage per Hour
Critical: 630 x 1050 = 661,500 Damage per Hour
Total: 791,000 Damage Per Hour
WSs per Hour (6/5 Hit): 199 (This is assuming a dream world where WS Animation is tiny and doesnt stop our melee lol)

Gnarled Horn Atma:
Swing Ratio: 71:29
Swings per Hour: 483 + 394 = 877 (12.3% Fewer Swings)
Critical Hits per Hour (83%) = 728 (13.5% More Crits) and 149 Normal Hits
Normal: 149 x 350 = 52,150
Critical: 728 x 1050 = 764,400
Total Damage per Hour: 816,550 (3.2% More)
WS's per Hour = 175 (12.1% Fewer WSs)

Can see simply enough that if you do not want to WS, Gnarled Horn will do more damage than Apoc Atma. And I stress MELEE DOT ONLY keep getting replies where people arent reading what Im saying lol. I dont need to go into any probable math to see that when you start WSing, Apoc will poopoo on Gnarled Horn lol 12.1% fewer WSs and only 3.2% better Damage so its a "Pearl Jam" Atma only pretty much.

As for the Temporary Item, if your party is operating as it should, Azure should be kept high, and Blue Boxes should be opened on sight. Stalwart's Tonic lasts 5 minutes, and Item Boxes appear more frequently than Time Extensions more often than not. The odds of you *NOT* having a Stalwart's during an XP party (XP Party NOT a Raid) are staggering lol. So yea, you can pretty much count on having it, I just never really used it but Im definitely going to now xD

Edit:
Oh and I will say again, I AM NOT talking 6-hit vs 5-hit here Im just saying Gnarled Horn indeed has a purpose and that with Temporary Items, if your a WAR that likes a 5-hit Build, now you can get it and still keep a super high Attack, thats all Im saying lol

[Arcon]

Actually, if you read what I said more closely, I was talking strictly about Melee...

I don't know what the point of that is, even if that was true, why would you restrict it just to melee? A WAR's melee hits are also extremely strong, if you're trying to hold the NM, just stopping WS won't help much. And in that case, you wouldn't wanna deal much damage anyway. The only mobs it would be useful on are mobs that have you amnesia'd all the time, and even then the difference wouldn't be great.

Also 3x damage for critical hits sounds a bit high too, even with SS Atma. And the difference between these two isn't very big to begin with, so if you reduce your critical hit modifier a little, it becomes negligible. Maybe it's not entirely stupid to be using it, but it definitely isn't smart either.

[Dirtyfinger]

Can see simply enough that if you do not want to WS

This is where you lost me.

[Yandaime]

a situation where you dont wanna WS is at the start of the party where you dont want any Ruby at first, or a "Pearl Jam" and like I said, it has a purpose, never said it was a good one lol

[Dirtyfinger]

Ahh I get you, you've made a solution for a problem that doesn't arise.

[Tsuneo]

a situation where you dont wanna WS is at the start of the party where you dont want any Ruby at first, or a "Pearl Jam" and like I said, it has a purpose, never said it was a good one lol
Personally, I would just ruby everything in sight. There's no reason not to kill everything as fast as possible. You're going to get more boxes killing as fast as possible than you would with no ruby kills.

[Yandaime]

pretty much lol. Theres always a better way of doing things, even if your doing silly things lol. I do like finding out more about the Temp Items tho, it was one of those things that just sat there in my inventory, ya know?

[Babekeke]

I'm fairly sure that if you account for having blood rage up 20% of the time, it will boost the damage of apoc atma that 3% to beat GH anyway. Even before you add in any WS.

[Neisan_Quetz]

GH is a wasted atma, go back to using Apoc, etc.

[wish12oz]

wrong math

It's nice you wanted to math this out......... but its complete BS.
Crits don't do 3x normal hits unless you're terrible. You would basically need to have the lowest attack value you can achieve with WAR for crit to do 3x more, in your 'pearl jam' exp parties, this is absolutely not going to happen. (You would need pdif at 1, which isn't going to happen unless you full time defender and dont use any sort of attack buffs at all)