View Full Version : Ninja Ability Suggestion
Griblit
05-01-2014, 11:16 PM
As you're probably aware, NINs have been a bit unusable lately, particularly in Delve and the AA battles. To help alleviate this, and to provide more options for party setups, I think it would be great to have a new Ranged Attack "stance" added to NIN's options.
This ability would greatly enhance a NIN's ranged attack and accuracy, and possibly open up throwing abilities and/or WSs, while greatly lowering melee damage/acc and evasion.
I think this would be a good way to make NINs usable again while providing group setups a good ranged alternative to just RNG all the time.
Dragomair
05-02-2014, 07:40 AM
Good idea.
My reply on a similar thread about NIN ranged:
Just my idea for improving shuriken for level 99+:
(probably been suggested before.)
Maybe a job point or merit job ability (that would work similar to the rune enchantment job ability for RUN) that would add certain effects to the ammo?
(Example:
Enchantment #1: Silence effect
Enchantment #2: Stun effect
Enchantment #3: Attack down effect
Enchantment #4: Evasion down effect
Enchantment #5: Accuracy down effect)
There are probably many more effects that would be better, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be thought of as 'game-breaking'.
NIN tanking never made much sense to begin with, but it's sad to see a job get shafted this badly. Making NIN into another super-low enmity DD would be a great idea, and fits the image of what a ninja is supposed to be. And, like RNG, they would then make nice companions for PLD tanks. NINs and PLDs, working together?! Madness!
This should definitely have more likes; I know there are more nins out there^^
But yes, that will be awesome. It would open up the door for a ranged ninja, akin to range sams. We are overdue for a throwing weaponskill.
Can a dev comment on this? Would be interesting to say the least.
Kincard
05-03-2014, 04:39 PM
No, making throwing any sort of emphasis for Ninja at this point is a bad idea. This has been discussed many times through the years and I can only assume the people that still suggest it are either relatively new to the job or arn't as familiar with the mechanics NIN as some of the long-time jaded players of it are (most of them don't even post around here anymore, I'm guessing lots of them have quit the game). Basically throwing would need a complete and total overhaul to be useful simply because of how the game works, and compared to all the other things you could do to make Ninja better it's just not a good route.
Dragomair's idea of adding effects on shuriken sounds fine until you realize it's completely redundant with ninjutsu- if you wanted to give Ninjas better debuff/buff support, it should be through these instead of shurikens because:
1. Debuff/buff ninjutsu takes significantly less inventory space (Although with Mog Wardrobe coming up I suppose that's less of a concern), through the fact that you need to both carry a dedicated throwing set and you need to carry the shuriken themselves, whereas right now good NINs already carry both a Ninjutsu set and their tools with them anyway
2. Debuff shuriken will undoubtedly have a magic accuracy modifier and that means they will probably be less efficient than simply adding a spell that depends on just that stat instead of needing to have ranged accuracy for it too
Be careful what you wish for by the way. Because of Ninja's versatility if they ever improved throwing it would be very limited because of SE's take on how they balance the game. Then Ninjas will have basically "wasted" their chance at an actual fix for the job for something that's nothing but a gimmick. It would be nice if they could fix every problem with the job but given how rare job adjustments for older jobs tend to be it would be really nice if it wasn't used on something that'd end up being totally useless. You want them to add a ranged stance for NIN so that it can be bad at one more thing? By the way, the very idea of a ranged stance for Ninja is counter to the whole idea behind how it was designed since the sweet spot for throwing is melee ranged- apparently the game wanted NINs to be up close and just randomly throw shurikens every now and then, or something.
My suggestion for "fixing" throwing for the people that truly want it? My idea lies in Sange. Do the following things:
1. Make Sange applicable to returning weapons so people don't have to waste tons of inventory
2. Add returning ranged weapons with good melee bonus stats
3. Make Sange the action itself instead of being a buff you put on yourself for your next ranged attack
Make throwing just something Ninjas do every few minutes for damage spike, basically an extra WS every now and then.
Melee-wise, the focus of a fix for NIN should be on the bad selection of WS and its laughable job trait/ability spread.
Tank-wise, the focus of a fix is either to stop bothering and just make them a dedicated melee DPS, or to add something on the magnitude of ridiculousness that Ochain/Aegis have, some kind of ultra evading weapon (I would have suggested parrying somewhere when they added Issekigan but then they decided to take that idea away from NIN and give it to RUN).
Darwena
05-03-2014, 06:03 PM
My suggestion for Ninja Is simple:
•Mikan should be a job traits.
•New hour ability should be something like all ninjutsu got double effect for the next 60sec. That include elemental, enfeebling and self buff.
•Innin need to get rid of the "attack from behind". DD when tank is ok and switch to Yonin when adds or main tank start getting trouble.
•add ninjutsu Ni spell. And make enfeebling ninjutsu stack with other spell. I never understood why different spell with same effect overwrites each other. Ninjustsu, enfeebling, Blue magic, Geomancy, Some JA should all stack on mobs. That will be to power full? So what, where we lack in pure melee dmg, we will compensate with stacking effect on boss fight.
And about enfeebling shurikens: no... No... NO! We have ninjutsu. Want throwing shine again? Lower the delay to throw them, add triple throwing. Or simply don't use it as command but more like a proc: lime kick attack, ninja will throw shurikens with regular attack.
Kincard
05-04-2014, 12:40 AM
Mikan should be a job traits.
Mikage. Also as nice as that would be it'd also be ridiculously broken.
New hour ability should be something like all ninjutsu got double effect for the next 60sec. That include elemental, enfeebling and self buff.
Meh. It'd make Utsusemi really useful and it'd give you a decent slow/blind/yurin for a while, but it's basically throwaway for everything else. Migawari wouldn't change much, Elemental Ninjutsu are total trash, Myoshu and Kakka arn't worth casting mid-battle, and Jubaku sucks.
Innin need to get rid of the "attack from behind".
Yes, please do this, SE.
add ninjutsu Ni spell
Yes, this too. Even if they were the exact same potency as the Ichis, extra duration and faster cast speed alone are worth something. Kakka: Ni would probably be worth putting up.
Some new debuffs wouldn't hurt either. Defense down, Silence, Sleep? These would all be great.
But really, I'd rather they give NIN new traits, take a look at the trait list for NIN:
Stealth: Whatever
Resist Bind: Filler JT basically every job has
Dual Wield: Awesome
Subtle Blow: Okay
Tactical Parry: Meh
Magic Burst Bonus: Useless
Skillchain Bonus: Useless
Compare this to the types of traits your powerhouse DDs get, or even other one-handers like THF, DNC, or BLU. NIN needs one or more of the following:
Accuracy Bonus
Attack Bonus
Evasion Bonus
Critical Damage Bonus
Critical Rate Bonus
Inquartata
Double Attack (If they added this subjobs other than WAR may become more popular in groups)
Note that obviously I'm not asking for every single one of these (unless they decided to give NIN level 1 in all of them so they become an "all-around" fighter, which would also be kinda cool I guess). In particular it's ridiculous that THF, DNC and even WAR and DRK of all jobs got Crit. Attack Bonus when NIN didn't. But as a side note, take into consideration that even if NIN got every single last one of these traits, they still wouldn't be that great of a DD because the real power of most DDs in this game lies in their abilities. Things like Last Resort, Berserk, Meditate/Sekkanoki and Saber Dance are generally way more powerful than any trait can be.
No, making throwing any sort of emphasis for Ninja at this point is a bad idea. This has been discussed many times through the years and I can only assume the people that still suggest it are either relatively new to the job or arn't as familiar with the mechanics NIN as some of the long-time jaded players of it are (most of them don't even post around here anymore, I'm guessing lots of them have quit the game). Basically throwing would need a complete and total overhaul to be useful simply because of how the game works, and compared to all the other things you could do to make Ninja better it's just not a good route.
Dragomair's idea of adding effects on shuriken sounds fine until you realize it's completely redundant with ninjutsu- if you wanted to give Ninjas better debuff/buff support, it should be through these instead of shurikens because:
1. Debuff/buff ninjutsu takes significantly less inventory space (Although with Mog Wardrobe coming up I suppose that's less of a concern), through the fact that you need to both carry a dedicated throwing set and you need to carry the shuriken themselves, whereas right now good NINs already carry both a Ninjutsu set and their tools with them anyway
2. Debuff shuriken will undoubtedly have a magic accuracy modifier and that means they will probably be less efficient than simply adding a spell that depends on just that stat instead of needing to have ranged accuracy for it too
Be careful what you wish for by the way. Because of Ninja's versatility if they ever improved throwing it would be very limited because of SE's take on how they balance the game. Then Ninjas will have basically "wasted" their chance at an actual fix for the job for something that's nothing but a gimmick. It would be nice if they could fix every problem with the job but given how rare job adjustments for older jobs tend to be it would be really nice if it wasn't used on something that'd end up being totally useless. You want them to add a ranged stance for NIN so that it can be bad at one more thing? By the way, the very idea of a ranged stance for Ninja is counter to the whole idea behind how it was designed since the sweet spot for throwing is melee ranged- apparently the game wanted NINs to be up close and just randomly throw shurikens every now and then, or something.
My suggestion for "fixing" throwing for the people that truly want it? My idea lies in Sange. Do the following things:
1. Make Sange applicable to returning weapons so people don't have to waste tons of inventory
2. Add returning ranged weapons with good melee bonus stats
3. Make Sange the action itself instead of being a buff you put on yourself for your next ranged attack
Make throwing just something Ninjas do every few minutes for damage spike, basically an extra WS every now and then.
Melee-wise, the focus of a fix for NIN should be on the bad selection of WS and its laughable job trait/ability spread.
Tank-wise, the focus of a fix is either to stop bothering and just make them a dedicated melee DPS, or to add something on the magnitude of ridiculousness that Ochain/Aegis have, some kind of ultra evading weapon (I would have suggested parrying somewhere when they added Issekigan but then they decided to take that idea away from NIN and give it to RUN).
I am not a new nin nor unfamiliar with the game mechanics; but I ask you, are you familiar with shurikens? I used these exclusively at lower lvls. I still recall using juji's in a JP party with a pld trying to rip hate from me; yes, rip hate from a lvl 31 ninja (True story). I also recall partying in the jungle absolutely destroying mandies; "this nin is pretty good" best mt ever, lol.
I respect your opinion, but as someone who found success with them, I strongly disagree. Shurikens are insanely powerful; a lvl 119 shuriken would be bananas^^
I agree with Darwena's suggestions, lower the delay and add triple throwing or something. I would love a dev response, shurikens are awesome; there are some of us out here whom loved throwing. This weapon should not fall by the way side, considering nin has a A- skill in it.
If anyone finds shurikens or a throwing stance useless; lvl sync down to 18-55 using the proper shurikens and you may change your mind, lol (Berserk + shurikens^^). Seriously, I thought throwing was useless aswell, until I tried it. The delay and the lack of a ws/traits makes this undesirable at 119. A stance would be perfect.
Wonder what SE thinks though?
Kincard
05-04-2014, 03:22 AM
If you know how the mechanics of the game work, then you should know that stuff works completely differently at level 99 than they do at level 30, 50 or whatever, and you would know why when people use RNGs, they either almost exclusively use RNGs and when they don't, they are basically never taken over a good melee. Yes, Shuriken are great at those low levels, but that's only because you have close to 0 haste gear and very weak dual wield at that level. By that logic elemental ninjutsu should be amazing because they completely wreck everything when you first get them at level 40.
Let me just illustrate this for you: Shuriken typically have 192 delay. This means they have a base delay of about 1.81, add to that an extra 1 second because of the after-fire delay.
My usual katana setup is Kannagi/Shigi, so 106/98 damage with 400 total delay- let's just say 102 damage each hand to make this simple. In good gear right now, Ninjas can hit the 80% delay reduction cap with white magic haste alone- there are almost 0 situations where a NIN is going to be not capped on melee delay reduction somehow. This means I'm already down to 80 actual delay, which translates out to about 1.33 seconds.
Now consider that, in my hasted TP gear, I have +12% double attack, +5% triple attack, and +4% quadruple attack (I don't even have the best gear). Add +10% DA from the WAR subjob. This means each swing I make is actually about 1.4 swings (rounding it down to bias this in favor of shurikens). I swing twice a turn anyway, so I get 2.8 attacks a turn.
In order for the D value on the Shurikens to be effectively the same, it would need to be 102 x 2.8 x (2.81/1.33) = 603.41D. To put that in perspective, that's more than twice the D value of the highest D value you can find in the game right now.
What about snapshot, you say? It'd help out a little, but it's not worth very much on Shurikens because snapshot only reduces aiming delay and that bothersome +1s will always be there (Even if you somehow hit, say, 50% snapshot, I'd still need the Shurikens to have about 408D to be equal to my katanas). By the way, we're already assuming that you hit your RA macro 100% perfectly each time.
Now add onto that the fact that Ninjas have no accuracy traits and a poor selection of ranged gear. They'd need to add a bunch of new gear just for NINs that throw.
All that just to be equal to something we already have. I haven't even factored in things like my Kannagi's ODD.
Shurikens will always be useless unless they just completely revamp how ranged attacks work or actually decide to add something like a 1000D shuriken. I'd rather they not waste their time on something that will almost certainly be disappointing.
If you know how the mechanics of the game work, then you should know that stuff works completely differently at level 99 than they do at level 30, 50 or whatever, and you would know why when people use RNGs, they either almost exclusively use RNGs and when they don't, they are basically never taken over a good melee. Yes, Shuriken are great at those low levels, but that's only because you have close to 0 haste gear and very weak dual wield at that level. By that logic elemental ninjutsu should be amazing because they completely wreck everything when you first get them at level 40.
Let me just illustrate this for you: Shuriken typically have 192 delay. This means they have a base delay of about 1.81, add to that an extra 1 second because of the after-fire delay.
My usual katana setup is Kannagi/Shigi, so 106/98 damage with 400 total delay- let's just say 102 damage each hand to make this simple. In good gear right now, Ninjas can hit the 80% delay reduction cap with white magic haste alone- there are almost 0 situations where a NIN is going to be not capped on melee delay reduction somehow. This means I'm already down to 80 actual delay, which translates out to about 1.33 seconds.
Now consider that, in my hasted TP gear, I have +12% double attack, +5% triple attack, and +4% quadruple attack (I don't even have the best gear). Add +10% DA from the WAR subjob. This means each swing I make is actually about 1.4 swings (rounding it down to bias this in favor of shurikens). I swing twice a turn anyway, so I get 2.8 attacks a turn.
In order for the D value on the Shurikens to be effectively the same, it would need to be 102 x 2.8 x (2.81/1.33) = 603.41D. To put that in perspective, that's more than twice the D value of the highest D value you can find in the game right now.
What about snapshot, you say? It'd help out a little, but it's not worth very much on Shurikens because snapshot only reduces aiming delay and that bothersome +1s will always be there (Even if you somehow hit, say, 50% snapshot, I'd still need the Shurikens to have about 408D to be equal to my katanas). By the way, we're already assuming that you hit your RA macro 100% perfectly each time.
Now add onto that the fact that Ninjas have no accuracy traits and a poor selection of ranged gear. They'd need to add a bunch of new gear just for NINs that throw.
All that just to be equal to something we already have. I haven't even factored in things like my Kannagi's ODD.
Shurikens will always be useless unless they just completely revamp how ranged attacks work or actually decide to add something like a 1000D shuriken. I'd rather they not waste their time on something that will almost certainly be disappointing.
You threw out a ton of statistics, however, your argument is still off base (As it pertains to this thread, we are aware of the game mechanics man......lol, gheessh). Also; did we not mention a range stance? I am assuming that this stance would include throwing traits and JAs. I disagree with your opinion, fine, no harm, no foul, but i am not going to use the game mechanics as a cope out. Yes, I am aware of haste gear; dual wield, and weapon delay. Shurikens are known to have much higher damage than katanas. For instance, the kikoku has 42 damage at lvl 75 210 delay, correct? The koga shuriken has 88 dmg 192 delay. We are aware of the game mechanics, which is why the OP suggested a ninja stance. This will also include JAs and traits which makes throwing more efficient (A triple attack trait like the poster above me mentioned would allow rapid tp; add that to a low delay shuriken). Yes your EMP has the after math effect, but shurikens have much higher damage than a katana. They could also just add a trait which occasionally causes shuriken to do double damage. The possibilities are out there; lets not just dismiss something because you disagree with it. One more thing, a 119 shuriken would most likely have say...close to 200 dmg; imagine a nin ws with 200dmg.
Also ninjistu, does do good damage at 99.
Edit: They could use rapid tp accumulation and ws usage as a way to counter the loss of dual wield and haste. My only concern is that this could very well make katanas a secondary weapon; akin to rngs and their axes. I have used shurikens; these things are the most underrated weapons in the entire game; they were even great pre delve at 99 with sange. Loved pulling abyssea birds; 2.8k crits for ftw^^ Also, ninja does have range gear, it is even on the reforged armor; which is puzzling atm.
Kincard
05-04-2014, 04:51 AM
Arguing using known game mechanics is a "cop out"? I'm wondering what you'd have me use instead to convince you. I don't think you quite understand the point I was trying to make, I wasn't saying it's literally impossible for shuriken to be good, I'm saying that in the current framework of the game the type of things you'd have to do to make Shuriken good are so extreme that they'd never realistically happen. I even gave what kinds of D values you would need to see on these Shuriken, and that includes the suggestions that have already been made.
Stuff like triple shuriken throws, a throwing stance...they wouldn't do much. Just take a look at that Damage value you gave that was actually a realistic estimate of what a 119 shuriken would have: 200D. It's not hard to figure out how much Snapshot and Triple Shot you would need for it to equal katanas with no special effects like ODD being considered, which is something like 50% snapshot and 50% triple shot. Do you actually see something like that happening when RNG's velocity shot gives effectively 15% snapshot and 20% r.attack?
Do you see what I'm trying to say here? You're saying, it's possible and giving vague reasons why, I'm saying, it's only technically possible with those tools if you ask for them in amounts that's totally ludicrous and would never happen, or it would require a complete reworking of how ranged attacks work in the game.
Also ninjistu, does do good damage at 99.
No it doesn't, because SE neglected to give ilevel katanas magic attack for whatever reason. Unless you're talking about the 99 cap before ilevel, for which you're also wrong because it will still ridiculously outclassed by katanas even after that ninjutsu skill patch.
Also, ninja does have range gear, it is even on the reforged armor; which is puzzling atm.
It's also bad ranged gear. It's on there because it's carry-over from back when they were level 60 pieces of gear and throwing was still somewhat useful. The Hachiya Tekko +1 are the only competent piece of the bunch, the rest of it (which consists of Hachiya Hakama +1 and Mochizuki Chainmail +1) are ridiculously outclassed by the gear that actual ranged classes can wear.
they were even great pre delve at 99 with sange
Not really. Even without the inherent crumminess of shurikens, Sange sucks simply because it requires you to use the ability to get a buff before throwing instead of simply just being an action. It adds an extra 2-second JA usage delay which means half the extra shurikens you are throwing as a result just got completely negated because you spent all that time using the JA.
They could use rapid tp accumulation and ws usage as a way to counter the loss of dual wield and haste
If that worked, then RNGs wouldn't be largely shunned in parties other than for strategies specifically calling for RNGs.
Arguing using known game mechanics is a "cop out"? I'm wondering what you'd have me use instead to convince you. I don't think you quite understand the point I was trying to make, I wasn't saying it's literally impossible for shuriken to be good, I'm saying that in the current framework of the game the type of things you'd have to do to make Shuriken good are so extreme that they'd never realistically happen. I even gave what kinds of D values you would need to see on these Shuriken, and that includes the suggestions that have already been made.
Stuff like triple shuriken throws, a throwing stance...they wouldn't do much. Just take a look at that Damage value you gave that was actually a realistic estimate of what a 119 shuriken would have: 200D. It's not hard to figure out how much Snapshot and Triple Shot you would need for it to equal katanas with no special effects like ODD being considered, which is something like 50% snapshot and 50% triple shot. Do you actually see something like that happening when RNG's velocity shot gives effectively 15% snapshot and 20% r.attack?
Do you see what I'm trying to say here? You're saying, it's possible and giving vague reasons why, I'm saying, it's only technically possible with those tools if you ask for them in amounts that's totally ludicrous and would never happen, or it would require a complete reworking of how ranged attacks work in the game.
No it doesn't, because SE neglected to give ilevel katanas magic attack for whatever reason. Unless you're talking about the 99 cap before ilevel, for which you're also wrong because it will still ridiculously outclassed by katanas even after that ninjutsu skill patch.
Ok, I will speak for myself, I do good damage with ninjustu at 99. At first you were talking about ninjustu at lvl40, now you back-peddled to lvl99, but at least you acknowledged that ninjustu does good damage. Your previous post completely blew it off, post lvl40.
You are just arguing to defend your post; we get it, you do not like throwing, but we do. that is the point of the thread. The thread is about a ninja range stance. I gave specific reasons why it would work, but stated they were vague, you are clearly arguing just to defend your post. i mean, you have your suggestions, fine, we have ours, if you do not like it, then it is cool. However, we want a throwing stance. You want a melee fix.
You also mentioned rngs; if I recall correctly, rngs get a REM weapon (And a bada$$ ws), shurikens do have a relic. So what if ninja can throw money like you, but with a non-relic weapon. You keep throwing out pretty statistics, however, would rngs care if a non-relic weapon had rapid tp accumulation and a decent amount of delay reduction? Ninjas are the king of weapon delay reduction; so it makes sense imo. My shurikens were scaling with rng's attacks lvl 18-55 and they did not give two $hits.
One of your post stated and I quote; "Shurikens will always be useless unless they just completely revamp how ranged attacks work or actually decide to add something like a 1000D shuriken" You also stated, "Basically throwing would need a complete and total overhaul to be useful simply because of how the game works" that is what we are asking for.....LMAO...what is the problem brah lol. You have your suggestions; that is fine, public forum, however, this thread is about throwing so...................
you completely blew it off, so I do not expect you to have much objectivity pertaining to this topic. If anything; this stance would be akin to sams using a bow. That is what I envisioned. This would also help on those pesky mobs that take flight or range battles.
Edit: I will keep arguing with you though, more post may equate to a dev response. Ill just copy and paste my original post, because you seem to be completely against throwing; thus I would be wasting key strokes typing a completely new reply. I could use those strokes on hip hop vixens (No pun intended), my school work in the background or someone whom has something to add pertaining to throwing. I am so tired of this community constantly looking for a fight; good grief. This is a suggestion thread. you suggested a sange fix, ok, fine, moving on.....................gheesh. I mean, you stated that my comments were vague, but you want "some kind of ultra evading weapon," did I dissect your suggestion? no. We are not developers, we can only give our suggestion. Will some player come along and disagree with it? Sure. if one player disagrees with my stance, so be it; I am only trying to convince a dev to reply or other players whom share the same sentiments.
Also, you mentioned "convincing me" lol, idc man, i am only one guy; we obviously have conflicting opinions. the developer's have the final say in what gets implemented; it is not that serious man, lol. We are only making suggestions as you are. We should be more focused on convincing them.
predatory
05-04-2014, 07:29 AM
A long time ago they changed utsusemi in a way that made it so whenever a mob missed due to a shadow, the person the mob missed would lose a little hate, (back when SE was nerf happy and pld's were bitching because the were replaced as tanks), they should simply get rid of that restriction. Another idea would be to create high damage shurikans, and katanas with high macc and matt. They could give nin higher eva and meva, utsusemi: san, and I think they should also give it pieces with racc and ratt, then it could be a viable tank again with a lot of tools to keep hate with.
A long time ago they changed utsusemi in a way that made it so whenever a mob missed due to a shadow, the person the mob missed would lose a little hate, (back when SE was nerf happy and pld's were bitching because the were replaced as tanks), they should simply get rid of that restriction. Another idea would be to create high damage shurikans, and katanas with high macc and matt. They could give nin higher eva and meva, utsusemi: san, and I think they should also give it pieces with racc and ratt, then it could be a viable tank again with a lot of tools to keep hate with.
I agree with all of this. Higher damage shurikens and more M.acc/att would really allow ninja to be the versatile job that they proclaim it to be. Atm, ninja can tank and dd; other jobs can do this as-well. Shuriken and magic attack ninja can/has worked, it has been done; just takes a little creativity on SE's part, should not be too much of a hassle.
As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything. Melee dmg boost would be awesome, but versatility would get you invites. Otherwise, just invite the mnk.
Mnk has always been the dps king, that is what they are known for; look at their JAs. A nin whom is proficient as a ranged dd will definitely get invites; especially if it could skillchain.
predatory
05-04-2014, 11:35 AM
As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything. Melee dmg boost would be awesome, but versatility would get you invites. Otherwise, just invite the mnk.
Mnk has always been the dps king, that is what they are known for; look at their JAs. A nin whom is proficient as a ranged dd will definitely get invites; especially if it could skillchain.
Nin has never been a heavy hitter, and won't ever replace rng, but nin excels at being a versatile tank/dd/support (I added support because the nin wheel weaken mobs to blms elemental spells), and regardless of whether SE designed the job for that purpose, it is a thing of beauty when played that way.
predatory
05-04-2014, 11:52 AM
As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything. Melee dmg boost would be awesome, but versatility would get you invites. Otherwise, just invite the mnk.
Mnk has always been the dps king, that is what they are known for; look at their JAs. A nin whom is proficient as a ranged dd will definitely get invites; especially if it could skillchain.
Mnk hasn't always been the dd king, back before I started playing (don't know if it was pre na pc release or after, I started at ps2 na launch), multi-hit ws gave tp for ever hit made during the ws, and sam's would use polearms for almost unlimitd ws. After they nerfed that rng became the hands down heaviest hitter in the game, and of course it was nerfed hard, and had longer delays put on ranged weapons than other weapons have, which put sam back on top. Mnk being top dog is a relatively recent thing when you take a long view of the game.
Mnk hasn't always been the dd king, back before I started playing (don't know if it was pre na pc release or after, I started at ps2 na launch), multi-hit ws gave tp for ever hit made during the ws, and sam's would use polearms for almost unlimitd ws. After they nerfed that rng became the hands down heaviest hitter in the game, and of course it was nerfed hard, and had longer delays put on ranged weapons than other weapons have, which put sam back on top. Mnk being top dog is a relatively recent thing when you take a long view of the game.
Certain jobs have their "flavor of the month moment" even pre-abyssea, mnk was a force to be reckoned with; not many jobs could edge out a properly geared mnk. Mnks ruled salvage; for obvious reasons.
Nin has never been a heavy hitter, and won't ever replace rng, but nin excels at being a versatile tank/dd/support (I added support because the nin wheel weaken mobs to blms elemental spells), and regardless of whether SE designed the job for that purpose, it is a thing of beauty when played that way.
i agree with this; ninja (For me personally) was a job that tears through mobs with sheer speed and nice ws. Tanking post jin was awesome. Shuriken tanking was a thing of beauty pre-60; nuking nin was insane in abyssea.
They need to bring this versatility back; notably shurikens.
Demonjustin
05-04-2014, 12:20 PM
As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything.I just wanna say. Lack of Decoy and Annihilator, if nothing else, would eliminate any chance of NIN being a real alternative. Kinard also pointed out that their throwing DMG is best at close range even if they're not meleeing due to how ranged attacks work, so they'd by default likely be weaker for that reason alone. I won't jump in the argument about whether or not the adjustment should be done or how valuable it would be, I just felt like pointing out that replacing RNG or becoming a decent alternative just isn't in the cards.
I just wanna say. Lack of Decoy and Annihilator, if nothing else, would eliminate any chance of NIN being a real alternative. Kinard also pointed out that their throwing DMG is best at close range even if they're not meleeing due to how ranged attacks work, so they'd by default likely be weaker for that reason alone. I won't jump in the argument about whether or not the adjustment should be done or how valuable it would be, I just felt like pointing out that replacing RNG or becoming a decent alternative just isn't in the cards.
Which is why I stated a throwing ws, perhaps a job trait that allows barrage like shots, and occasionally deal double damage. I was already doing rng like attacks with shurikens at one point; the only thing missing was a ws, Jas, and traits (Which is what we want). Lol, you guys keep mentioning the lack of JAs, we know this, which is why the OP recommended a stance; we assume that it will not be a bare bones guys. For instance, the Innin behind penalty will not apply to the throwing stance. That is just one example of a JA/trait. perhaps this stance will be more efficient the further away you are, who knows.
Listen; we know throwing needs a overhaul which is the point of this thread. You stated that you did not want to jump into the debate, but you did, lol. You guys keep bringing up problems we know exist, which is why we are suggesting a re-haul,aka ninja throwing stance.
Edit: You and Kin do not think it will work, ok, no harm, no foul; but there are 6 other ppl that would like something like this based upon the OP's likes. You are not going to convince us otherwise; lol (But you can try; public forum). For instance; just because a player shoots down the idea does not mean we will stop wanting this. We are not trying to convince the naysayers, but get dev approval.
Also, i love the naysayers, free bumps; want this thread to keep going strong so thanks for contributing to our cause; although you disagree with it, lol.
If a devs says shoots this down, then fine, I will not cry about it. These are just a few suggestions we want added to the game; a throwing stance. Until then, continue to help us keep the throwing stance thread alive with your opposing stance^^
Kincard
05-04-2014, 01:54 PM
I am so tired of this community constantly looking for a fight; good grief.
I'm not looking for a fight man, I'm giving feedback just like you are, it just happens to be in opposition to you. Contrary to what you think I actually would like it a lot if they made shurikens useful and made some other lore-appropriate changes like smoke bombs or whatever. I'm trying to add to the conversation so you ask for the right adjustment instead of something that would be completely useless. A throwing stance and throwing traits will not be nearly enough- they need to completely revamp ranged attacks in the game, which would solve problems pertaining to RNGs, CORs, SAM bows, and throwing.
I do good damage with ninjustu at 99
There's no way it was outdoing your katanas at level 99. You could be completely naked with level 99 katanas and you still would've done more damage than in the best nuking gear. I'm not even joking.
but at least you acknowledged that ninjustu does good damage
At level 40, yes. I don't know how the ninjutsu skill patch changes things but back when I was actually leveling NIN was only good until maybe somewhere in the 50s and then it stopped being useful. After the skill patch it was still bad at 99, it is still bad at 119. If they put magic damage+ on katanas like they do with BLU sword it might have a niche use but as it is I can do more elemental damage just by subbing RUN. I did not backpedal anywhere, I don't think you know what the word means.
You are just arguing to defend your post; we get it, you do not like throwing, but we do.
You're not getting it, I don't dislike throwing in any way (there's no reason for me to "dislike" a game feature, I'm just stating objective facts about how the game works), it's that the game is objectively structured from a mechanics standpoint to disadvantage ranged attacks. They tried to fix that by greatly reducing the after-shot delay which helped, but it still wasn't enough to make RNG anything other than better at what it was already good at. It still wasn't really competitive in straight damage compared to actual melee DPS. If they couldn't fix it for RNGs, why would you want them to add this feature for NINs when it'd serve no real tactical purpose? Again, the sweet spot range for throwing is melee range, so it's not like you'd even get that tactical advantage if you were to start throwing on NIN.
I gave specific reasons why it would work, but stated they were vague, you are clearly arguing just to defend your post.
I gave reasons why they wouldn't work unless they are extreme changes, and you don't seem to want to rebut them or just don't understand why that's a huge problem. They would need to give Ninja ranged buffs that are something like 3 times better than what RNG, the premiere ranged job, for Shuriken to be in any way useful. This is like asking them to give NIN stronger MAB and MBB traits than BLM and give them better magic damage weapons- it's not in any way realistic.
My shurikens were scaling with rng's attacks lvl 18-55 and they did not give two $hits.
You mean those levels where barely any haste gear exists?
that is what we are asking for.....LMAO...what is the problem brah lol. You have your suggestions; that is fine, public forum, however, this thread is about throwing so...................
Again, the problem is that using the suggestions you have made, they would need to be ridiculously exaggerated changes for them to mean anything. If at some point they decide that they want to completely revamp how ranged attacks work, great...but they haven't done it for 12 years, and since Matsui's been up they've been pretty good about trying to rebalance the major broken aspects of the game, and something as big as a ranged attack adjustment has never been mentioned a single time. In case you're wondering what I mean by the adjustment, it would mean making ranged attack another type of autoattack, so it wouldn't be overly reliant on players doing something monotonous to be good and it would assumedly eliminate that annoying aftershot delay.
That sort of thing is what you should be asking for if you want shurikens to be fixed, and not things like a throwing stance and triple throw. You don't ask for a cherry if you don't have ice cream.
As to why I'm in this thread, I'm giving feedback as to why it's a bad suggestion. It would be a complete waste of dev time and fix NIN in absolutely no way whatsoever. Unfortunately from a realistic view job changes are a zero-sum game. I don't want the devs to think that this would actually be a good idea unless they're prepared to add things on the magnitude I suggested.
you completely blew it off, so I do not expect you to have much objectivity pertaining to this topic. If anything; this stance would be akin to sams using a bow. That is what I envisioned. This would also help on those pesky mobs that take flight or range battles.
My posts are the most objective in the entire thread because they actually talk about game mechanics instead of simply what I feel like would be cool.
As for SAMs using their bows, I can see something like that happening, but the ranged stance would be unnecessary for that. Almost the only time SAMs use their bow is during WSs because Namas Arrow's enmity effect is great. If they're ever taken over RNGs in ranged fights its only because someone can't find any.
Before you mention throwing WS, it's been stated multiple times that they can't do it from a system standpoint. If they have fixed this it might be somewhat interesting to have lots of new WS to play wth, I suppose, but it'd only get used in the same way SAMs use Namas Arrow- they'd never just free fire the ranged weapon, it'd be get TP with your katanas and then fire a shuriken WS. That would actually fit into the current framework of the game.
Again, ask for shurikens if you want, but you should be asking for a total ranged attack overhauls and not for them to add things that wouldn't help at all.
I'm not looking for a fight man, I'm giving feedback just like you are, it just happens to be in opposition to you. Contrary to what you think I actually would like it a lot if they made shurikens useful and made some other lore-appropriate changes like smoke bombs or whatever. I'm trying to add to the conversation so you ask for the right adjustment instead of something that would be completely useless. A throwing stance and throwing traits will not be nearly enough- they need to completely revamp ranged attacks in the game, which would solve problems pertaining to RNGs, CORs, SAM bows, and throwing.
Nah, you clearly stated in your previous post that throwing, aka shurikens could not work. "No, making throwing any sort of emphasis for Ninja at this point is a bad idea." Also, you may or may not be looking for a fight; the reason why I think you are? This thread is about a rehaul to throwing; you clearly stated that throwing would need a revamp.
There's no way it was outdoing your katanas at level 99. You could be completely naked with level 99 katanas and you still would've done more damage than in the best nuking gear. I'm not even joking.
Never said nuking out dd katanas, you stated "By that logic elemental ninjutsu should be amazing because they completely wreck everything when you first get them at level 40." Then you back-peddled and admitted that nin nuking was pretty good at 99 pre-delve (Abyssea nin nuking is still insane).
At level 40, yes. I don't know how the ninjutsu skill patch changes things but back when I was actually leveling NIN was only good until maybe somewhere in the 50s and then it stopped being useful. After the skill patch it was still bad at 99, it is still bad at 119. If they put magic damage+ on katanas like they do with BLU sword it might have a niche use but as it is I can do more elemental damage just by subbing RUN. I did not backpedal anywhere, I don't think you know what the word means.
See above; nin nuking is still powerful;in abyssea, but nonetheless it has uses post 40.
You're not getting it, I don't dislike throwing in any way (there's no reason for me to "dislike" a game feature, I'm just stating objective facts about how the game works), it's that the game is objectively structured from a mechanics standpoint to disadvantage ranged attacks. They tried to fix that by greatly reducing the after-shot delay which helped, but it still wasn't enough to make RNG anything other than better at what it was already good at. It still wasn't really competitive in straight damage compared to actual melee DPS. If they couldn't fix it for RNGs, why would you want them to add this feature for NINs when it'd serve no real tactical purpose? Again, the sweet spot range for throwing is melee range, so it's not like you'd even get that tactical advantage if you were to start throwing on NIN.
Again; you clearly stated that any emphasis on throwing is a bad idea. Also, whose to say that they will not revamp how nin operates? For instance; in the stance, the innin behind penalty is removed and further distance equates to more dmg; for this stance only.
I gave reasons why they wouldn't work unless they are extreme changes, and you don't seem to want to rebut them or just don't understand why that's a huge problem. They would need to give Ninja ranged buffs that are something like 3 times better than what RNG, the premiere ranged job, for Shuriken to be in any way useful. This is like asking them to give NIN stronger MAB and MBB traits than BLM and give them better magic damage weapons- it's not in any way realistic.
I did 5k+ nukes in abyssea pre-delve (Futae); my casting time was also shorter than a blm and I received no complaints. Rapid NI spells also rack up as opposed to slowly casting a blm spell; ever wonder why you seen blms casting tier 1 spells recently? That is how NI spells were in abyssea (And abyssea was akin to delve at the time).
You mean those levels where barely any haste gear exists?
Nope; even at 99 shurikens were strong; and I was only using Fumas. like i said, the only thing missing were JAs, WS, and traits. Sange crits 2.8kish in bird pts pre-delve. Having the innin penalty removed under this stance and a lower sange recast would equate to massive damage.
Again, the problem is that using the suggestions you have made, they would need to be ridiculously exaggerated changes for them to mean anything. If at some point they decide that they want to completely revamp how ranged attacks work, great...but they haven't done it for 12 years, and since Matsui's been up they've been pretty good about trying to rebalance the major broken aspects of the game, and something as big as a ranged attack adjustment has never been mentioned a single time. In case you're wondering what I mean by the adjustment, it would mean making ranged attack another type of autoattack, so it wouldn't be overly reliant on players doing something monotonous to be good and it would assumedly eliminate that annoying aftershot delay.
There was no pet food for 12 years, despite bst wondering about it, but behold! It comes next update. Also, a revamp is what we are asking for. Throwing stance; there is no throwing stance in-game therefore it would need to be implemented, hence revamp throwing.
That sort of thing is what you should be asking for if you want shurikens to be fixed, and not things like a throwing stance and triple throw. You don't ask for a cherry if you don't have ice cream.
That is your opinion, this thread is about a throwing stance. The OP asked for a stance, not an auto-attack.
As to why I'm in this thread, I'm giving feedback as to why it's a bad suggestion. It would be a complete waste of dev time and fix NIN in absolutely no way whatsoever. Unfortunately from a realistic view job changes are a zero-sum game. I don't want the devs to think that this would actually be a good idea unless they're prepared to add things on the magnitude I suggested.
That is your opinion; you are entitled to it. But all of your suggestion are great, right? Which is why your post had 1 like and the OP's had six? Six ppl want throwing, one does not. Never said you could not post here btw.
My posts are the most objective in the entire thread because they actually talk about game mechanics instead of simply what I feel like would be cool.
And yet; we still want throwing, but yes, your statistics were real pretty. The range attack stance will be a revamp to throwing; which includes game mechanics. You also mentioned things we are aware of which is why we want a revamp.
As for SAMs using their bows, I can see something like that happening, but the ranged stance would be unnecessary for that. Almost the only time SAMs use their bow is during WSs because Namas Arrow's enmity effect is great. If they're ever taken over RNGs in ranged fights its only because someone can't find any.
Not really; seen sams murder delve with range ws. There is more than one way to skin a cat; so what if rngs are more proficient than sams in the range department; we want versatility. I want my friend to come to an event; damn no rng? Np, nin can do this aswell.
Before you mention throwing WS, it's been stated multiple times that they can't do it from a system standpoint. If they have fixed this it might be somewhat interesting to have lots of new WS to play wth, I suppose, but it'd only get used in the same way SAMs use Namas Arrow- they'd never just free fire the ranged weapon, it'd be get TP with your katanas and then fire a shuriken WS. That would actually fit into the current framework of the game.
This I can agree with, to an extent. The purpose of this thread is for a throwing stance; however, personally, I just want to use shurikens again and this is how I functioned as a shuriken ninja. I always thought; damn, my shurikens are much stronger than my katanas. I could get with this personally. However, I do not see why a throwing ws cannot be implemeted. It is a ranged ws........
Again, ask for shurikens if you want, but you should be asking for a total ranged attack overhauls and not for them to add things that wouldn't help at all.
Ummmmm...that is what this thread is about (I should probably copy and paste this to my sig or something, lol......)
Edit:Bah, forgot multi-quote XD.
Darwena
05-04-2014, 02:53 PM
A long debate was made about throwing and sange there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why
Same word, different peoples. Naruto fans that want shuriken and elite that try to explain how useless shuriken are now and why we shouldn't ask devs about it.
On my part... I'm probably spend my Dynamis currencies on something else than Kikoku cause Ninja kinda lost is shine now. Anyway, I play BST to farm them or been asked to come as BLU 99% of the time...
Demonjustin
05-04-2014, 03:34 PM
[/B]
Ummmmm...that is what this thread is about (I should probably copy and paste this to my sig or something, lol......)
Edit:Bah, forgot multi-quote XD.He's explaining how to make it useful. You can argue for the changes you want to see all you'd like, you're going at it from the perspective of wanting ranged attacks to be useful so you wanna throw ideas at it till it's better. He's looking at it from the perspective of what mathematically and in game will make it actually useful, rather than just better or cooler.
A long debate was made about throwing and sange there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why
Same word, different peoples. Naruto fans that want shuriken and elite that try to explain how useless shuriken are now and why we shouldn't ask devs about it.
On my part... I'm probably spend my Dynamis currencies on something else than Kikoku cause Ninja kinda lost is shine now. Anyway, I play BST to farm them or been asked to come as BLU 99% of the time...
Nice find, forgot about that thread. Lol, @a 146dmg weapon being impossible (Pre-delve)they did mentioned a relic shuriken; hmmmm.
If they do not want to implement a throwing stance; fine, however, i would still like a use for shurikens. I have never seen a job with so many A grade skills that were completely useless. At the very least turn sange into an instant attack; remove innin stance requirement, and give us a shuriken ws/JA. When you take a step back and observe the current situation, all of our suggestions will need a revamp/re-haul. For instance; shurikens can go off during strikes, but they are range weapons; therefore are affected by ranged acc. Low acc could equate to misses, notably on harder mobs. A stance would need more of a complete overhaul, but it will fall in line with the current range acc/att gear because it is a stance, which focuses on range attack.
However, what do you guys/gals think of this; our katanas having some magic attack on them, a shuriken which possess stats aswell (+throwing skill, attack, and acc), also, a shuriken attack JA that has skillchain properties. For instance Blade Hi > "Insert shuriken name"= darkness self sc then magic burst with Hyoton san or something. This should be efficient, if our 106+ katanas had magic attack on them (The shuriken can have +throwingskill, acc, and att); this way a ninja could function without having to sacrifice haste and whatnot.
Edit: The JA could have a reasonable recast; say 2 mins? Doing the aforementioned may make nin a efficient job once again, Notably removing the innin stance requirement. Imo, the boost should decay from the front, but not from the back.
He's explaining how to make it useful. You can argue for the changes you want to see all you'd like, you're going at it from the perspective of wanting ranged attacks to be useful so you wanna throw ideas at it till it's better. He's looking at it from the perspective of what mathematically and in game will make it actually useful, rather than just better or cooler.
You missed the point; he stated that we should ask for a complete overhaul.....that is what the thread is about/what I asked for. This is what I was referring to about copying and pasting, lol........Thanks for contributing............
Kin did make A suggestion that I gave a thumbs up btw. You are turning this into a battle, I am not at war with Kin, just tired of typing "overhaul" when we all agreed that this is what it would take. Also, we all took mathematics into account; our damage is determined by those number thingys on the screen..........................
Kincard
05-04-2014, 04:20 PM
But all of your suggestion are great, right? Which is why your post had 1 like and the OP's had six? Six ppl want throwing, one does not.
I could just as easily point out how dozens of people on any community site that isn't this one would agree with me that adding a throwing stance is completely pointless, that doesn't prove anything. Nice populum argument though, I guess?
Then you back-peddled and admitted that nin nuking was pretty good at 99 pre-delve (Abyssea nin nuking is still insane)
I never once said NIN nuking was in any way good at 99, I said the exact opposite.
And Abyssea? Seriously? Nobody cares how much damage you do in there, otherwise NIN would still be invited as one of the kings of melee DPS.
Again; you clearly stated that any emphasis on throwing is a bad idea.
Yes, it's a bad idea because it'll be a lot of dev time investment in something that will almost certainly be useless. It doesn't mean I don't like the idea of throwing, it means I think it's a waste of time given how rarely the devs adjust jobs and how the adjustments are always relatively minor.
I did 5k+ nukes in abyssea pre-delve (Futae); my casting time was also shorter than a blm and I received no complaints.
Yes, lots of NINs had fun stacking tons and tons of magic attack and elemental attack atma and then doing big nukes to useless fodder enemies, but that doesn't in any way translates out to being useful. If you will recall, BLMs had barely any use in Abyssea (unless people wanted weaknesses) and they continue to have little use. But like I said, for this if they just put magic attack on katanas, it'd probably fix the problem, since elemental ninjutsus have very low base damage so magic attack would make them much, much stronger. Elemental ninjutsu has a much simpler fix than throwing but they haven't done it for whatever reason.
Nope; even at 99 shurikens were strong; and I was only using Fumas
No, they weren't. Fuma Shuriken had 72 damage, you could've easily outpaced that with just Arisui. They were nothing but a waste of money. Congrats that you spiked 3k damage on something when every single person could do that much using a WS? You took longer too, since you had to use Sange, then throw your shuriken.
That is your opinion, this thread is about a throwing stance. The OP asked for a stance, not an auto-attack.
It's a thread about an idea which is subject to feedback, I am giving my suggestion of what would be a better way to fix throwing than a stance. Changing throwing to an alternate auto attack would be far more useful to achieve what you want than adding a throwing stance within the current system.
Not really; seen sams murder delve with range ws. There is more than one way to skin a cat; so what if rngs are more proficient than sams in the range department; we want versatility. I want my friend to come to an event; damn no rng? Np, nin can do this aswell.
Which is exactly what I said? SAMs use Namas Arrow because it's a strong WS and it has reduced enmity, but they're not going to be dry shooting with the bow unless somebody couldn't find a RNG.
While I can agree with the idea of versatility, like I said, there's multiple obstacles, the least of which should be a throwing stance. It's things like the aftershot delay, the lack of throwing WS, throwing's sweet spot, etc. All these need to be changed before or while adding any sort of stance.
However, I do not see why a throwing ws cannot be implemeted. It is a ranged ws........
I don't know, that you'll have to ask the devs, but people have asked for this since even before the official forums existed and they've never given an answer other than that it was either very difficult or impossible to do.
that is what this thread is about
Please stop saying this like I don't know. Instead, familiarize yourself with the idea that part of discussing an idea is supposed to be about improving it, or discarding useless ones.
You keep saying that they should add a ranged stance, and I keep trying to explain to you why that would not fix anything, even if it was the most exaggerated buff in the game's history. After years of 0 responses on the Ninja forum you guys manage to milk one out and it's about throwing, which is inargubly the most useless skill in the entire game. (yes im slightly butthurt about that) If that's really what they think should be fixed about NIN, then I'm giving the hard numbers on what this change should look like, because what has been suggested so far would be Footwork all over again- people would log in, play with it for an hour, and then realize how worthless it is.
However, what do you guys/gals think of this ; our katanas having some magic attack on them, a shuriken which possess stats aswell (+throwing skill, attack, and acc), also, a shuriken attack JA that has skillchain properties. For instance Blade Hi > "Insert shuriken name"= darkness self sc then magic burst with Hyoton san or something. This should be efficient, if our 106+ katanas had magic attack on them (The shuriken can have +throwingskill, acc, and att); this way a ninja could function without having to sacrifice haste and whatnot.
Okay, cool, now we're getting somewhere. This is an interesting idea and I wouldn't mind things like this. The problem with the stance idea was that it implied a desire to make shuriken just another way to do damage, which is spending a whole lot of time to make something that's not only a lead balloon, but also redundant for the job.
If they added the skillchain property to Sange that would make it essentially become a Sekkanoki/Chain Affinity for NIN. Might be cool.
I could just as easily point out how dozens of people on any community site that isn't this one would agree with me that adding a throwing stance is completely pointless, that doesn't prove anything. Nice populum argument though, I guess?
it is what it is, you stated that this was a bad idea, 6 likes compered to your one.
I never once said NIN nuking was in any way good at 99, I said the exact opposite.
Then you were wrong.
And Abyssea? Seriously? Nobody cares how much damage you do in there, otherwise NIN would still be invited as one of the kings of melee DPS.
Abyssea was the $hit back then
Yes, it's a bad idea because it'll be a lot of dev time investment in something that will almost certainly be useless. It doesn't mean I don't like the idea of throwing, it means I think it's a waste of time given how rarely the devs adjust jobs and how the adjustments are always relatively minor.
Again, you are one person; one like to 6 likes.
Yes, lots of NINs had fun stacking tons and tons of magic attack and elemental attack atma and then doing big nukes to useless fodder enemies, but that doesn't in any way translates out to being useful. If you will recall, BLMs had barely any use in Abyssea (unless people wanted weaknesses) and they continue to have little use. But like I said, for this if they just put magic attack on katanas, it'd probably fix the problem, since elemental ninjutsus have very low base damage so magic attack would make them much, much stronger. Elemental ninjutsu has a much simpler fix than throwing but they haven't done it for whatever reason.
Again, abyssea was the $hit back then and I drew ooohs and ahhhhs.
No, they weren't. Fuma Shuriken had 72 damage, you could've easily outpaced that with just Arisui. They were nothing but a waste of money. Congrats that you spiked 3k damage on something when every single person could do that much using a WS? You took longer too, since you had to use Sange, then throw your shuriken.
Not really, used sange to pull; hence dd did not get a chance to make it to the mob before sange hit it like a truck.
It's a thread about an idea which is subject to feedback, I am giving my suggestion of what would be a better way to fix throwing than a stance. Changing throwing to an alternate auto attack would be far more useful to achieve what you want than adding a throwing stance within the current system.
Not really, throwing is a range attack, thus reliant on range acc, if you gear for melee; there will be a shuriken whiff fest. However, I previously stated that a stance would require a overhaul as did you. However, if you read my previous comments and stop being so hung up on convincing me, you will see that i referenced +throwing skill on the shurikens which could alleviate that.
Which is exactly what I said? SAMs use Namas Arrow because it's a strong WS and it has reduced enmity, but they're not going to be dry shooting with the bow unless somebody couldn't find a RNG.
Sams are great with a bow; we agree.
While I can agree with the idea of versatility, like I said, there's multiple obstacles, the least of which should be a throwing stance. It's things like the aftershot delay, the lack of throwing WS, throwing's sweet spot, etc. All these need to be changed before or while adding any sort of stance.
We know this.......again; throwing stance will need an overhaul because....it does not exist in-game? And throwing is useless atm?
I don't know, that you'll have to ask the devs, but people have asked for this since even before the official forums existed and they've never given an answer other than that it was either very difficult or impossible to do.
So, did a dev say that this was impossible to implement or is this your assumption?
Please stop saying this like I don't know. Instead, familiarize yourself with the idea that part of discussing an idea is supposed to be about improving it, or discarding useless ones.
I am inclined to believe that you do; but you are so hung up on convincing me/getting the last word. You clearly stated that we should be asking for a overhaul to throwing, but you acknowledged that this stance would require just that, which is the point of this thread.
You keep saying that they should add a ranged stance, and I keep trying to explain to you why that would not fix anything, even if it was the most exaggerated buff in the game's history. After years of 0 responses on the Ninja forum you guys manage to milk one out and it's about throwing, which is inargubly the most useless skill in the entire game. (yes im slightly butthurt about that) If that's really what they think should be fixed about NIN, then I'm giving the hard numbers on what this change should look like, because what has been suggested so far would be Footwork all over again- people would log in, play with it for an hour, and then realize how worthless it is.
throwing was not always useless, clearly you have never been a shuriken ninja if you believe that it is useless. Crappy now? Yes, but don't pretend like throwing never had a place. perhaps I am the ninja master or something, but i did great with shurikens at one point.
Kincard
05-04-2014, 11:25 PM
you are one person; one like to 6 likes.
So? Unless you're telling me you think a total of 7 people play this game this has nothing to do with anything. I'm sure you know what selection bias is. Please try posting this suggestion on any of the community sites that have a higher traffic than this place and I can prove nothing too.
Then you were wrong.
I'm only wrong insofar as it being useful in xp parties, and do you really think NIN needs to be able to get EXP faster at this point? Outside of that it was a gimmick that never basically never did more overall damage than katanas, unless you want to give me something other than cherry picked spike numbers.
Try using an elemental ninjutsu nuke in level 99 gear on Botulus Rex or hell, if you want Abyssea, even something like Rani. It was a gimmick.
Abyssea was the $hit back then
Yes, and? Abyssea has inflated stats that are even high compared to ilevel gear, so the only place Abyssea numbers are relevant are in Abyssea. Unless they announce they're giving us a global +30% crit hit rate/attack, +200 MAB and +100 to all base stats (well, we're about getting there for that last one I guess) then what happens in Abyssea doesn't apply anywhere the rest of the game, otherwise people would still invite NINs.
Not really, throwing is a range attack, thus reliant on range acc, if you gear for melee; there will be a shuriken whiff fest.
I'm sure if I wore MAB gear while using Blade: Hi I'd do crappy damage too. What's your point? How does that in any way invalidate the idea of making a ranged autoattack? Obviously if I'm going to go into "ranged autoattack" or whatever I'm going to be wearing ranged armor instead.
again; throwing stance will need an overhaul because....it does not exist in-game? And throwing is useless atm?
You clearly stated that we should be asking for a overhaul to throwing, but you acknowledged that this stance would require just that, which is the point of this thread.
I've been trying to reiterate the point over and over that a throwing stance implies that you're asking for something that fits into the current structure of the game, which is a waste of time trying to ask for. I didn't say anything about overhauling a ranged stance, I said overhaul ranged attacks in general, there's a very big difference and I'm flummoxed how you don't seem to understand what I'm saying after about 5 posts of it.
The OP doesn't actually specifically want a ranged stance- he wants shurikens to be good, and the stance is supposed to be the means to the end. I'm saying that route will not fix anything unless it is something along the lines of velocity shot x3, so the smarter idea is to simply change how ranged attacks work in general, or ideas like the one you threw out earlier by making shuriken a skillchain opener. If they revamp ranged attacks in general a stance wouldn't be necessary, and if they didn't it'd wouldn't help.
If people really wanted to make a ranged attack NIN, a more realistic thing to ask for is actually to ask for NIN's marksmanship skill to be increased and then giving NIN access to newer guns and bullets, because the gun NIN was a build that was actually usable on endgame content in place of a RNG.
So, did a dev say that [throwing WS] was impossible to implement or is this your assumption?
They have talked about it multiple times in the past and the answer was always "no", and they always stated something about the system not being able to support it or something. Honestly, given all the other stuff they've changed their minds about lately, I wouldn't rule it out completely.
throwing was not always useless, clearly you have never been a shuriken ninja if you believe that it is useless. Crappy now? Yes, but don't pretend like throwing never had a place. perhaps I am the ninja master or something, but i did great with shurikens at one point.
Yes, we already know how you think shurikens were useful at level 50. Can we please talk about level 99 and how it is almost impossible for shuriken to be good at this level? Cherry picking 3k damage spikes on exp monsters once every 5 minutes is not something useful.
Darwena
05-05-2014, 02:49 AM
The way game evolved shuroken won't get any shine unless it's use as proc. This is a simple way to put it up.
Let's say:
A job ability than work like kick attack, mean once actives, 20% chance of throwing attack with main hand regular attack. That proc also give us x TP, you need to have shurikens equipped (like battery ammo for lightning proc on certain polearm).
About spike dmg in abyssea, wells its abyssea: A WHM could deal badass dmg with right atma so...
The real problem with Ninja nowadays is: every cool thing with ninja is available to every other job as support job (.../NIN) and almost do better in everything than NIN/... And I don't think adding shurikens will make ninja wanted again.
About ninja tanking, since XP party are gone, event need a meat shield like PLD. Ninja can't really do the job. As DD, well every job can do it better. Magic? Enfeebling? Peoples will get a RDM or BLU instead. So what ninja could bring in a event? Soloing? Pets job are much better at it. Stop saying at lv40-60-75 ninja are awesome, event are lv99 now.
So, what role ninja can fill today?
So? Unless you're telling me you think a total of 7 people play this game this has nothing to do with anything. I'm sure you know what selection bias is. Please try posting this suggestion on any of the community sites that have a higher traffic than this place and I can prove nothing too.
It is a fact, get over it.
I'm only wrong insofar as it being useful in xp parties, and do you really think NIN needs to be able to get EXP faster at this point? Outside of that it was a gimmick that never basically never did more overall damage than katanas, unless you want to give me something other than cherry picked spike numbers.
Bottom line, you said it was useless past 40; you were wrong I used it at 99.
Try using an elemental ninjutsu nuke in level 99 gear on Botulus Rex or hell, if you want Abyssea, even something like Rani. It was a gimmick.
Sure, but that was not your original stance; you stated it was useless past 40, then it was implied that it was ok at 99, then you never said was good at 99, now you think it is useless on bosses outside abssyea. You keep changing your stance to fit your arguments. yes it is weak on bosses, but strong in abyssea.
Yes, and? Abyssea has inflated stats that are even high compared to ilevel gear, so the only place Abyssea numbers are relevant are in Abyssea. Unless they announce they're giving us a global +30% crit hit rate/attack, +200 MAB and +100 to all base stats (well, we're about getting there for that last one I guess) then what happens in Abyssea doesn't apply anywhere the rest of the game, otherwise people would still invite NINs.
Answer this question, is nin nuking good in abyssea yes or no? Yes other jobs flourish in abyssea, but you stated it was useless post 40.
I'm sure if I wore MAB gear while using Blade: Hi I'd do crappy damage too. What's your point? How does that in any way invalidate the idea of making a ranged autoattack? Obviously if I'm going to go into "ranged autoattack" or whatever I'm going to be wearing ranged armor instead.
Shurikens are a range weapon, hence need range acc to land; melee gear will not cut it.
I've been trying to reiterate the point over and over that a throwing stance implies that you're asking for something that fits into the current structure of the game, which is a waste of time trying to ask for. I didn't say anything about overhauling a ranged stance, I said overhaul ranged attacks in general, there's a very big difference and I'm flummoxed how you don't seem to understand what I'm saying after about 5 posts of it.
But a throwing overhaul is a overhaul nonetheless, right? You stated that we should be asking for a overhaul to throwing...ummm, a stance will be just that. Throwing is throwing. keep backpeddling tho^^ It is quite comical
The OP doesn't actually specifically want a ranged stance- he wants shurikens to be good, and the stance is supposed to be the means to the end. I'm saying that route will not fix anything unless it is something along the lines of velocity shot x3, so the smarter idea is to simply change how ranged attacks work in general, or ideas like the one you threw out earlier by making shuriken a skillchain opener. If they revamp ranged attacks in general a stance wouldn't be necessary, and if they didn't it'd wouldn't help.
Did you not read my previous post? I stated that a stance did not have to be necessary for me personally.
If people really wanted to make a ranged attack NIN, a more realistic thing to ask for is actually to ask for NIN's marksmanship skill to be increased and then giving NIN access to newer guns and bullets, because the gun NIN was a build that was actually usable on endgame content in place of a RNG.
Using what ws?
They have talked about it multiple times in the past and the answer was always "no", and they always stated something about the system not being able to support it or something. Honestly, given all the other stuff they've changed their minds about lately, I wouldn't rule it out completely.
Again, is this your assumption or did a dev directly state this?
because this is completely different than your orginal stance; you are backpeddling into oblivion.
Yes, we already know how you think shurikens were useful at level 50. Can we please talk about level 99 and how it is almost impossible for shuriken to be good at this level? Cherry picking 3k damage spikes on exp monsters once every 5 minutes is not something useful.
I just wanted to see you backpeddle some more, thanks for admitting you were wrong. Shurikens are useful; at 99? nah (Which is the point of the thread, why would we want a overhaul if it was useful at 99, contradiction much brah?)
The way game evolved shuroken won't get any shine unless it's use as proc. This is a simple way to put it up.
Let's say:
A job ability than work like kick attack, mean once actives, 20% chance of throwing attack with main hand regular attack. That proc also give us x TP, you need to have shurikens equipped (like battery ammo for lightning proc on certain polearm).
About spike dmg in abyssea, wells its abyssea: A WHM could deal badass dmg with right atma so...
The real problem with Ninja nowadays is: every cool thing with ninja is available to every other job as support job (.../NIN) and almost do better in everything than NIN/... And I don't think adding shurikens will make ninja wanted again.
About ninja tanking, since XP party are gone, event need a meat shield like PLD. Ninja can't really do the job. As DD, well every job can do it better. Magic? Enfeebling? Peoples will get a RDM or BLU instead. So what ninja could bring in a event? Soloing? Pets job are much better at it. Stop saying at lv40-60-75 ninja are awesome, event are lv99 now.
So, what role ninja can fill today?
DD/tank get rid of Innin stance requirement and penalty which would equate to having +30% critical hit rate and magic attack damage. Add a sizable amount of magic attack to 106+ katanas, including REM. Give ninja high lvl shurikens and make sange an instant JA, give nin JA shuriken attack with skillchain properties like I previously mentioned; Nin will be back in biz^^
Guys, I was one of the crazy ppl that used shurikens, trust me, a critical hit sange like JA on a short timer will be deadly. I had a sange macro way back when; I would pull with this and completely level mobs if all hits landed (5 is alot of hits; especially if it is instant and crit, it also adds tp aswell). Now, if we had another JA shuriken attack with skillchain properties, akin to Konzen-ittai, but a damaging ability, as opposed to a chainbound animation; this could open the door for shurikens and ninjustu working in unison. For instance; Innin > Blade Hi > "Crtical hit shuriken JA/WS" =skillchain darkness > magic burst hyoton. I do not believe this is too far-fetched.
Also, as it pertains to abyssea ninja, Darwena, Kin stated that nin nuking was useless post 40 and I just simply stated that is was not; I was outnuking nearly everyone on Nin/rdm, one-shotting dolls in abyssea, pre-delve. I don't understand why ppl keep dissecting this; i used nin/rdm and was deadly in abyssea, like you said, it is abyssea, big deal. Kin stated it was useless past lvl40 and he was wrong. Useless: "not fulfilling or not expected to achieve the intended purpose or desired outcome." It fulfilled my needs as a azure killer, what is the big deal you guys, lol......I also used it to enfeeble outside.
predatory
05-05-2014, 05:03 AM
Nice find, forgot about that thread. Lol, @a 146dmg weapon being impossible (Pre-delve)they did mentioned a relic shuriken; hmmmm.
If they do not want to implement a throwing stance; fine, however, i would still like a use for shurikens. I have never seen a job with so many A grade skills that were completely useless. At the very least turn sange into an instant attack; remove innin stance requirement, and give us a shuriken ws/JA. When you take a step back and observe the current situation, all of our suggestions will need a revamp/re-haul. For instance; shurikens can go off during strikes, but they are range weapons; therefore are affected by ranged acc. Low acc could equate to misses, notably on harder mobs. A stance would need more of a complete overhaul, but it will fall in line with the current range acc/att gear because it is a stance, which focuses on range attack.
However, what do you guys/gals think of this; our katanas having some magic attack on them, a shuriken which possess stats aswell (+throwing skill, attack, and acc), also, a shuriken attack JA that has skillchain properties. For instance Blade Hi > "Insert shuriken name"= darkness self sc then magic burst with Hyoton san or something. This should be efficient, if our 106+ katanas had magic attack on them (The shuriken can have +throwingskill, acc, and att); this way a ninja could function without having to sacrifice haste and whatnot.
Edit: The JA could have a reasonable recast; say 2 mins? Doing the aforementioned may make nin a efficient job once again, Notably removing the innin stance requirement. Imo, the boost should decay from the front, but not from the back.
I'm for your argument, I'd love to see nin get it's place back as an alternate tank, and i can see high damage low delay shurikans with racc and ratt, but not skill, maybe put throwing skill on one of the katanas that would be cool. Skill doesn't belong in an ammo slot, but if they put it on shurikens I want it on arrows.
So? Unless you're telling me you think a total of 7 people play this game this has nothing to do with anything. I'm sure you know what selection bias is. Please try posting this suggestion on any of the community sites that have a higher traffic than this place and I can prove nothing too.
I'm only wrong insofar as it being useful in xp parties, and do you really think NIN needs to be able to get EXP faster at this point? Outside of that it was a gimmick that never basically never did more overall damage than katanas, unless you want to give me something other than cherry picked spike numbers.
Try using an elemental ninjutsu nuke in level 99 gear on Botulus Rex or hell, if you want Abyssea, even something like Rani. It was a gimmick.
Yes, and? Abyssea has inflated stats that are even high compared to ilevel gear, so the only place Abyssea numbers are relevant are in Abyssea. Unless they announce they're giving us a global +30% crit hit rate/attack, +200 MAB and +100 to all base stats (well, we're about getting there for that last one I guess) then what happens in Abyssea doesn't apply anywhere the rest of the game, otherwise people would still invite NINs.
I'm sure if I wore MAB gear while using Blade: Hi I'd do crappy damage too. What's your point? How does that in any way invalidate the idea of making a ranged autoattack? Obviously if I'm going to go into "ranged autoattack" or whatever I'm going to be wearing ranged armor instead.
I've been trying to reiterate the point over and over that a throwing stance implies that you're asking for something that fits into the current structure of the game, which is a waste of time trying to ask for. I didn't say anything about overhauling a ranged stance, I said overhaul ranged attacks in general, there's a very big difference and I'm flummoxed how you don't seem to understand what I'm saying after about 5 posts of it.
The OP doesn't actually specifically want a ranged stance- he wants shurikens to be good, and the stance is supposed to be the means to the end. I'm saying that route will not fix anything unless it is something along the lines of velocity shot x3, so the smarter idea is to simply change how ranged attacks work in general, or ideas like the one you threw out earlier by making shuriken a skillchain opener. If they revamp ranged attacks in general a stance wouldn't be necessary, and if they didn't it'd wouldn't help.
If people really wanted to make a ranged attack NIN, a more realistic thing to ask for is actually to ask for NIN's marksmanship skill to be increased and then giving NIN access to newer guns and bullets, because the gun NIN was a build that was actually usable on endgame content in place of a RNG.
They have talked about it multiple times in the past and the answer was always "no", and they always stated something about the system not being able to support it or something. Honestly, given all the other stuff they've changed their minds about lately, I wouldn't rule it out completely.
Yes, we already know how you think shurikens were useful at level 50. Can we please talk about level 99 and how it is almost impossible for shuriken to be good at this level? Cherry picking 3k damage spikes on exp monsters once every 5 minutes is not something useful.
MMORGs are a gimmick; but abyssea was akin to delve back then, the main attraction. Also, it did take alliances to take down bosses (With super powers); delve and the level cap eased the difficulty tremendously. This whole game is full of gimmicks, even delve has its' secrets pertaining to bosses. In due time delve may be looked upon as a joke when harder crap is introduced.
I'm for your argument, I'd love to see nin get it's place back as an alternate tank, and i can see high damage low delay shurikans with racc and ratt, but not skill, maybe put throwing skill on one of the katanas that would be cool. Skill doesn't belong in an ammo slot, and if they put it on shurikens I want it on arrows.
Good point; nice to see someone critiquing my suggestion as opposed to my nin/rdm^^
Completely forgot about rngs, I agree, it should be on the katanas.
But could you guys imagine if the removed the innin stance requirement/penalty? That alone will help us out tremendously, but we still need more. My argument is to make shurikens, katanas, and ninjustu work together; they are our A grade skills after all, lol.
I wonder if a dev will comment on this? A way for Shurikens, katanas, and ninjustu to work in unison. Also, can the innin stance penalty be adjusted to work from the front, but does not decay from the back? It is quite difficult to hit a mob from the back now and days; personally, I can not stay behind the mob long enough to get the full benefit. if I do, on a rare occasions, the mob will eventually turn around and attack me, lol, hence I have to cancel due to the evasion penalty. Seriously, innin is a great JA, but the requirements are quite difficult to meet in this day and age with rampant dinosaurs, giant bees, and crazy dds turning the mob every which and way. This is just a player's experince with this ability since its' release.
Any high lvl shurikens on the way? We have three A grade skills, but can only use one.
Imo, it makes no sense for a nin to be either or; a thrower, melee, or nuker, how about all three simultaneously^^
I truly believe they can, I do not see why not........i am a dedicated player; have tried using ninja at its' peak; as a range thrower (Does not work at 119), nuker (Works beautifully in abyssea, but meh outside), and a melee (Now this is pretty good, however, Innin would be nice, but it is difficult to use; I have no REM, perhaps another individuals can comment on REM nin melee). These are just my experiences on ninja.
predatory
05-05-2014, 05:33 AM
Good point; nice to see someone critiquing my suggestion as opposed to my nin/rdm^^
Completely forgot about rngs, I agree, it should be on the katanas.
But could you guys imagine if the removed the innin stance requirement/penalty? That alone will help us out tremendously, but we still need more. My argument is to make shurikens, katanas, and ninjustu work together; they are our A grade skills after all, lol.
I'm all for making any job stronger and more viable. SEs idea of balance was to always tear down the stronger jobs rather than strengthen the weak ones, and I've always felt that was exactly the wrong way to go, people feel frustrated when things are taken from them, and always feel much better and want to spend time ingame when they're given a boon, who knows, maybe some day SE will hire devs that understand human nature and then they may be a force to reckon with in the online gaming industry, until then i'm going to keep replying to posts that are trying to get good things for jobs, because after all the tearing down they've done over the years, it's about time for them to start building again.
I'm all for making any job stronger and more viable. SEs idea of balance was to always tear down the stronger jobs rather than strengthen the weak ones, and I've always felt that was exactly the wrong way to go, people feel frustrated when things are taken from them, and always feel much better and want to spend time ingame when they're given a boon, who knows, maybe some day SE will hire devs that understand human nature and then they may be a force to reckon with in the online gaming industry, until then i'm going to keep replying to posts that are trying to get good things for jobs, because after all the tearing down they've done over the years, it's about time for them to start building again.
Had to rate this up; I am a reasonable guy; I occasionally question the developers at times (Like everyone), but it is all out of frustration; it is not personal or malicious (Do not want anyone to think that; it is only a game). We just don't understand why they choose to let a plethora of jobs rot away. Will making ninja viable really hurt the game? How? Will a nin self sc with katanas and shurikens break the balance? How? The responses we do get are pretty vague; "We have no intentions on removing the innin penalty/stance. " This is not a direct quote from a dev btw, just an example. Then they go on to describe what we already know. However, all I ask is why? They rarely work with us, it is usually, a no and some explanation that does not make sense to the players whom attempted to function under the said conditions.
Gonna bump this thread, not gonna let it die until we get some sort of response/action.
It makes no sense to have two useless A grade skills. This is not like a pld's secondary weapons, clubs, staff, etc, but these are skills that are unique/only used by ninja. Even a war can be efficient with B grade skills, Brd C grade. Imo, the innin stance requirement should be removed (Makes no sense for a tanking job honestly, when you consider the penalties and stance positioning), and also, a ninja needs to be able to better utilize all of its tools; otherwise just remove shurikens and elemental ninjustu from the game. It is highly possible to make these three skills work in unison SE; you did it for other jobs whom have secondary weapons, not A grade skills. I gave an perfect (Imo, lol) illustration on how this can be done. A generic JA (With skillchain properties; akin to sam's chain bound JA, only damaging), Allow sange and range attacks to be instant (Yags do it), shorten sange recast a little, give us magic attack on 106+ katanas (Enough for it to be efficient during self skillchains; don't we have magic burst/skillchain bonus anyway,hmmm), give us high lvl shurikens with evasion, range acc/att on them, also remove the innin stance requirement.
This would not require a re-haul and fits directly into some of the traits native to ninjas atm, magic burst/skillcahin bonus. I mean blu can self sc (They are in the dumps atm), it would not break anything. Self skillchaining would be a great way to gain hate and also utilize unused A grade skills.
Darwena
05-06-2014, 12:39 PM
Mikage as a job trait and as new 1-jour, an ability That double the effect of ninjustsu.
Mikage as a job trait and as new 1-jour, an ability That double the effect of ninjustsu.
This would be cool; some may argue that it could be broken, but does it not dependent on the number of shadows you have? If you are reaching breakneck speed; enmity would be most likely generated which could equate to your shadows being lost. Nin was intended to be a fast striker, look at the -delay on their gear.
Ninja is a great job, in theory, but the vision and the actual performance does not equate. Innin; great idea, but the circumstances that makes this JA shine are quite rare. Mikage; another great idea, but it only occurs every hour. Sange; Imo the JA with the most potential (No I am not a Naruto fan, never even watched the crap, lol), but where are the lvl119 shurikens? We have a A grade in throwing. Imo, sange should be a instant JA on a 3min timer. With high lvl shurikens, this can reach near ws levels of damage on crits (Innin from the from front), not to mention the tp gain from an instant 5 hits. Ninjutsu is nice, in theory, but there are no magic attack on our katanas. Magic burst and skillchain damage boost traits are nice, but under what circumstances would we use this in today's XI? A self-skill chaining capabilities would solve this.
Darwena
05-08-2014, 03:46 PM
I feel like devs don't care much about ninja... Only major adjustment we got was sange. The most useless skill ever for now (compare to other merits). And definitely, Mikage should be a job trait. Also, its about every debuffing stuff (ws, weapon's procs, spell, ninjutsu, blue magic, JA...) should stack.
While not a stance, I welcome this^^ http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41549-Why-no-throwing-weapon-skill?p=507337#post507337
I just was some use for shurikens; they were such great weapons at lower lvls, hopefully these elements are solid.
Darwena
05-17-2014, 06:25 PM
Well, we will see it... Soon? I don't know. But new shurikens will be welcomed.