Obligatory Waltz Fix Demand

[Ninian]

I enjoyed a time where DNC was an amazing healer... but this has long since changed.

Please split the waltz timers even/odd, or lower their recast time. I also please ask that the Waltz Potency Cap be re-evaluated. In addition, please have Healing Waltz on another timer too.

Love,

Ninian~

[Fusionx]

It's very frustrating to erase something like curse only to have to wait before you can then cure them. It would be great to have healing waltz on a separate timer. Heck, even splitting up Waltz 1-3 and 4-5 on separate timers would be amazing. It's very easy to accumulate TP now but it can be frustrating trying to do our job with it since we're restricted because everything uses the same timer.

[Kari]

I think something needs to be done.
For a job that's meant to be a Front-line Healer + Light DD, we're very lacking now in healing.

Anything past CW3 lacks utility due to recast timers.
If I'm on DNC and need to cure, I'll likely be spamming CW3.
There is almost never a reason to use CW4/5. Only time I use them is when my healer is slacking. [In other words, when that cure is going to be the only cure I plan on using for a while.]

Healing Waltz is annoyingly bad on recast.
What do you do, Healing Waltz your Paralyze and hope you live long enough to cure?
Or, attempt to cure and hope you don't get a Paralyze proc?

Divine Waltz II is also bleh.
Very impotent cure with a huge recast timer.
The amount of HP it cures isn't really worthwhile whatsoever.

I can rant more, but I think everyone who's ever played DNC knows the annoyances.
I just hope that future updates give some changes to Waltzes.

[Kalima]

Yes PLEASE do something about waltz timers. The majority of dancer's that I've talked to (both in game and just about every single forum you can find) doesn't even use Curing waltz 4 and 5 because of the long recast times. Splitting them into separate categories, lowering the recast times altogether, or even introducing us to some more -waltz recast gear (only having one augment in the game for -2 seconds doesn't cut it) would be greatly appreciated.

[Starcade]

Divine II especially is basically only a "I have to heal everybody in the party" motif.

I can see separating recasts for Healing and the Curings, but not even-odd, at least IMODO.

[Starcade]

Yes PLEASE do something about waltz timers. The majority of dancer's that I've talked to (both in game and just about every single forum you can find) doesn't even use Curing waltz 4 and 5 because of the long recast times. Splitting them into separate categories, lowering the recast times altogether, or even introducing us to some more -waltz recast gear (only having one augment in the game for -2 seconds doesn't cut it) would be greatly appreciated.

I'll use V as a backup healer with something that I know hits like a truck, or when I'm soloing and just don't want to watch every damn second of a mob I know I beat handily.

I understand the 23s recast is a PITA. It has it's uses, from time to time, though.

[Kari]

Divine II especially is basically only a "I have to heal everybody in the party" motif.

I can see separating recasts for Healing and the Curings, but not even-odd, at least IMODO.

Even/odd would allow us to actually be healers again.
Right now, we're almost on the same level as anyone else who's /DNC when it comes to healing.
Jobs that are limited to Cure IV have better healing capabilities than DNC right now.
Not saying my DNC should be as good at healing as my WHM, but as the "front-line healer" role, gimping the hell out of our cures eliminates that position.

[Radio]

I understand this thread is mainly to bring up the casting times on our waltzes but I was wondering if others felt if there was a way to power up healing waltz (maybe in the new merits that have been alluded to in the past) so that it can remove bard debuffs and petrification? It's not a huge issue but it comes up for me every once in a while.

[kenshyn]

I'll use V as a backup healer with something that I know hits like a truck, or when I'm soloing and just don't want to watch every damn second of a mob I know I beat handily.

I understand the 23s recast is a PITA. It has it's uses, from time to time, though.

Nod when you can be hit for huge damage and sittting at low hp CW4/5 are for those emergencies fo sure doing ovni solo having the extra hp from a cure is a godsend in my book.

[Dymlos]

Yes please, having to share recast timers is freaking annoying. I hope they don't decided to add '- waltz' recast timer in the new 'merit system' that's supposed to come @99.

[Yuriki]

I agree, I only ever seem to use IV/V when I'm hit with a move that deals big dmg and I'm positive that my shadows will hold me over for a while. DWII seems to be used mainly for getting hate when in a party of 6.

[varistor]

To avoid being repetitive, i will just say that I concur with the previous posts about changing the timers or something in one way or another.

[Eeek]

I'm thrilled that this is the first topic in the DNC forum! Waltz timers are a major issue for DNC. I wish I had something more substantive to post, but Ninian and Fusionx already summed up the problem and added potential solutions. I agree with them 100%.

[PizzaTheHut]

I just want increased samba duration...

[Keithvalentine]

Its kinda sucky that u cant ever do a good set of cures if 1 person needs a waltz 5 because of the long recast and the rest of the pt must suffer because of it

[Byrth]

I agree with this. It has been a longstanding problem (about a year now) that has not been addressed.

[Killercat]

IMHO recasts don't need to be fixed. Give DNC equips that can cut down recasts. On Cures you have Fast Cast and Haste to reduce timers, so why DNC has no or only one option...?

CW4 and 5.... on tight situations they can be useful. Use it or die and then hope mob won't hit you a long time (switching to EVA-gear).

Divine Waltz II: To much hate on that for the ammount you heal. This is maybe not a prob, but you might get attention from the mob and your Waltzes timer is down long time.

[Kasandaro]

IMHO recasts don't need to be fixed. Give DNC equips that can cut down recasts. On Cures you have Fast Cast and Haste to reduce timers, so why DNC has no or only one option...?

One option, yes. Heck, while I know how absolutely broken it would make other jobs, Haste affecting my /ja recasts would be so lovely. Barring that, yes, I would adore gear that would cut the waltz recasts - 23s (even 18s with gear) really is too long to lock out all curing after an OMGHeal.


Divine Waltz II: To much hate on that for the ammount you heal. This is maybe not a prob, but you might get attention from the mob and your Waltzes timer is down long time.

Having had plenty of experience with Curagas? No, the hate is about right on DWII (if there's an enmity multiplier, I haven't ever seen it).

[Fusionx]

It would be nice if we had more options available for waltz recast items as well. Right now we have the augment from Kupo d'Etat. That's it XD

Some pieces with both potency and recast down would be amazing.

[Myo]

Stupid question... What is the waltz potency cap? Wiki doesn't mention one, but I have noticed that +31% waltz potency in my healing set (Phurba, Roundel Earring, Sonia's Plectrum, Etoile Tiara, Dancer's Casaque) doesn't add what appears to be 31% potency. Is it 25%?

[Cream_Soda]

SE should listen to Ninian, she is awesome.

[Dawnn]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head in this thread

[Amanie]

yes please do something SE. its my TP let me burn through it as fast as i want to.

[Starcade]

Its kinda sucky that u cant ever do a good set of cures if 1 person needs a waltz 5 because of the long recast and the rest of the pt must suffer because of it

Which is one of the reasons I basically, in that case, would rather Divine II than Waltz V, unless I know there's a good healer in the party.

[Ninian]

Stupid question... What is the waltz potency cap? Wiki doesn't mention one, but I have noticed that +31% waltz potency in my healing set (Phurba, Roundel Earring, Sonia's Plectrum, Etoile Tiara, Dancer's Casaque) doesn't add what appears to be 31% potency. Is it 25%?

It's 30% including gear and atma.

[Myo]

Oh ok, 30% is an awkward number to cap out at... And a dumb one considering the gear and Atma potentially letting it go higher if it were allowed to... Isn't the Cure (spell) potency cap at 50%? They should at least boost Waltz cap to that. Make it a fair playing field. The shared waltz delay is a killer in abyssea alliances too. If it wasn't for that dancer would be an amazing main healer. As it stands, In groups larger then 4~8 on mobs that spam Area of Effect damaging abilities and spells, dancer falls short.

[Ninian]

Oh ok, 30% is an awkward number to cap out at... And a dumb one considering the gear and Atma potentially letting it go higher if it were allowed to... Isn't the Cure (spell) potency cap at 50%? They should at least boost Waltz cap to that. Make it a fair playing field. The shared waltz delay is a killer in abyssea alliances too. If it wasn't for that dancer would be an amazing main healer. As it stands, In groups larger then 4~8 on mobs that spam Area of Effect damaging abilities and spells, dancer falls short.

Yeah, it's weird... but it's definitely 30%. I would love for them to raise the cap to 50% in addition to fixing waltz timers somehow.

In other news, Atma of the Despot is a great waltz potency atma.... <_<;

[Delvante]

I happen to agree with you guys that the cast time can be a bit frustrating. Moreso on the idea of sharing cast times with divine's is aggravating. Personally, I don't see where Curing Waltz IV and V are so annoying that you only use Curing Waltz III's. Especially in a solo aspect I don't bother curing myself depending on the things I fight until I get relatively low hp and then it's a once and done status. That's nice because then I can full cure (or near) and then go back to being the sick DD that I know how to be! hehe

I am certainly curious what they're going to decide to do with DNC on 99 merits.

[Glamdring]

Not a chance guys. In fact, I think dancer is gonna be the next job to get nerfed. My dancer is a tougher soloer than my beast and I am an EXCELLENT beast.

[Byrth]

I should preface this by saying that I play FFXI way more than I should. For every hour most people have spent trying to do something, I've spent several hours actually doing it.

At the moment, I'm Temperance Torque from a perfect Waltz build (0/2 on Temp the last day I played, on vacation now), and main healing real DDs on DNC isn't viable with our current recasts. We need to reduce Waltz recast and JA delay. With my build I can hit the 30% potency cap without AF2 head (Phurba/OA2-4), so I have JA delay-2 on everything from Anwig, and it's not enough. Waltz IV and V need a significant recast reduction, and we need to reduce the Job Ability delay in general.

[Rionaheart]

Even/odd would allow us to actually be healers again.
Right now, we're almost on the same level as anyone else who's /DNC when it comes to healing.
Jobs that are limited to Cure IV have better healing capabilities than DNC right now.
Not saying my DNC should be as good at healing as my WHM, but as the "front-line healer" role, gimping the hell out of our cures eliminates that position.
it depends how you play the job i don't see it as a healing job well im more of the dd DNC then healer when it comes to partys we have WHM,SCH & RDM for that ye i will back heal and toss out the odd divine waltz and healing waltz if the main healers are out of or very low on mp but thats there job dont get me wrong if im soloing and see someone that could use a helping hand i will use my tp to cure them but the timers could do with being shortened and also could they change the useless 2hr we have to something that is worth useing.

[Ninian]

it depends how you play the job i don't see it as a healing job well im more of the dd DNC then healer when it comes to partys we have WHM,SCH & RDM for that ye i will back heal and toss out the odd divine waltz and healing waltz if the main healers are out of or very low on mp but thats there job dont get me wrong if im soloing and see someone that could use a helping hand i will use my tp to cure them but the timers could do with being shortened and also could they change the useless 2hr we have to something that is worth useing.

Back when DNC was main healer for Dynamis, Einherjar etc, Trance was an amazing 2hr combined with Divine Waltz II for zerging/dangerous situations. They shouldn't change our 2hr, they should just make us a more viable job. :(

[Kari]

Not a chance guys. In fact, I think dancer is gonna be the next job to get nerfed. My dancer is a tougher soloer than my beast and I am an EXCELLENT beast.

I don't even know what to say to this.


Personally, I don't see where Curing Waltz IV and V are so annoying that you only use Curing Waltz III's. Especially in a solo aspect I don't bother curing myself depending on the things I fight until I get relatively low hp and then it's a once and done status. That's nice because then I can full cure (or near) and then go back to being the sick DD that I know how to be! hehe

You make it sound like all you ever fight is EP mobs.
Sure, if you're fighting trash mobs that hardly damage you, you can top yourself off with CW4/5 and continue doing whatever -- they aren't going to damage you hard enough to need more cures.

However, against something that is capable of constantly lowering your HP, even with shadows, spamming CW3 will give you more survivability. CW4/5 give more HP in one Waltz, sure, but over time you're taking more damage than you're healing. You'll get more HP over time with CW3.
Then, in a party situation, it's just much much worse. The more people you have getting hit, the worse off you're going to be for healing.

[Byrth]

Splitting Waltzes Odd/Even is a really great way to do this. We would be limited by our TP gain instead of being frustrated by recasts.

[Pellucid]

I think DNC is made to be a front-line support role more than cure bomb expert, so I don't want to see them become whm in TP form. I'd rather see them get things like AoE negative status ailment removal, and more creative options for sambas. I do think healing waltz should be on a separate timer though, and I do agree they should be able to blow TP faster.

[Kasandaro]

also could they change the useless 2hr we have to something that is worth useing.

Really? How can you find Trance not useful, unless you're full-timing Sabre Dance? I think that's gotten my parties' butts out of the fire more than Benediction or Tabula Rasa has. One of the major features of Dancer is its ability to drop an insane amount of healing while doing decent-to-good damage. Removing one of the massive tools to do so? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.} ^^

[Kari]

The only time I ever use Trance, is in Abyssea. Mob shit up, Aeolian Edge spam, use Trance to save my TP for WSs.
It's not a great 2 hour, but it does have it's uses. I hardly ever use it without access to 2 hour chests, though.


I think DNC is made to be a front-line support role more than cure bomb expert, so I don't want to see them become whm in TP form. I'd rather see them get things like AoE negative status ailment removal, and more creative options for sambas. I do think healing waltz should be on a separate timer though, and I do agree they should be able to blow TP faster.

There would still be limits to curing, WHM will still always, always be better.
I'd rather see DNC capable of keeping HP up at a fair rate, where WHM can do that better, cure statuses, Bar-Elements, etc etc.
I play both DNC and WHM currently, and I know I don't want DNC to beat out my WHM in healing, however I can't consider my DNC a healer whatsoever now.

[Byrth]

That's pretty much how I feel about Trance too. I like it for Aeolian Edge spam when I already have capped Azure, I don't like it otherwise.

Tabula Rasa is quite possibly the most useless 2-hour in the game, so it may be a bad example to pull for this. Benediction is more useful than Trance, in that it AoE cures everyone nearby and removes status ailments. The biggest problem with Bene is that most WHMs don't use it until it's far too late.

[Lilsanchez]

I agree to all of this, it is annoying! But wouldn't us being able to cure more, or take off debuffs while curing and all that good stuff make our solo experiances much much easier? I mean DNC is already amazing in that sense. To make DNC more of a main healer they would require being able to cure faster, if they did that they would probably add a crutch to your DDing ability immensly. Something fair needs to come into play.

The one thing I request is more waltze potency gear. Yes please! Love the idea of Waltz cap being adjusted too, for our benafit of course. :P

[Kari]

I agree to all of this, it is annoying! But wouldn't us being able to cure more, or take off debuffs while curing and all that good stuff make our solo experiances much much easier? I mean DNC is already amazing in that sense. To make DNC more of a main healer they would require being able to cure faster, if they did that they would probably add a crutch to your DDing ability immensly. Something fair needs to come into play.

The one thing I request is more waltze potency gear. Yes please! Love the idea of Waltz cap being adjusted too, for our benafit of course. :P

There are already other jobs that solo much better than DNC when played properly.
There's also really no reason to "crutch" DNC's DDing capabilities.

[Lilsanchez]

But I'm sure you completely agree DNC is amazing in that area though... Otherwise you wouldnt be playing it much, annd... I don't really think there are other jobs out there that solo better then DNC. "If Played right" as you say. DNC is the best to my knowledge.. By far. IMO though, of course.

[Kari]

But I'm sure you completely agree DNC is amazing in that area though... Otherwise you wouldnt be playing it much, annd... I don't really think there are other jobs out there that solo better then DNC. "If Played right" as you say. DNC is the best to my knowledge.. By far. IMO though, of course.

Pet Jobs tend to solo better.
There's also plenty of new NMs that will tear a DNC apart.

I also don't play DNC because it's a good solo job. If I wanted an amazing soloer, I'd probably have leveled BST and/or SMN.
90% of the things I do on FFXI are in small groups with friends.

Either way, I don't so much want DNC to be better at soloing, but I do want it to be viable in more party situations than current.

[Kasandaro]

That's pretty much how I feel about Trance too. I like it for Aeolian Edge spam when I already have capped Azure, I don't like it otherwise.
(quoting yours, as it's the first I clicked on)

A couple said the same, that I want to comment on. One of SE's issues here is there is a LOT of endgame content that is not Abyssea, not to mention they want to keep the job and ability useful through the previous 89ish levels. By 75+, yes, DNC switches to a more DD role, but prior to that, it's soloing or healing.

And please do not say that it doesn't matter since everyone chestburns 30+.


Tabula Rasa is quite possibly the most useless 2-hour in the game, so it may be a bad example to pull for this. Benediction is more useful than Trance, in that it AoE cures everyone nearby and removes status ailments. The biggest problem with Bene is that most WHMs don't use it until it's far too late.

TR I will give you as the most complex. Azure Lore beats it hands down and around for worthless. My problem with Benediction (and yes, I've had this on several mobs, but this one sticks in my head):
Dynamis Lord: Oblivion Smash
WHM: Benediction
10s later
DL: Oblivion Smash
WHM: ...

versus
DL: Oblivion Smash
DNC: Trance
DNC: DWII
DNC: DWII
DL: Oblivion Smash
DNC: DWII
DNC: DWII
DNC: /grin

I dunno. I like playing healing jobs to their fullest extent as healers, and Trance is a huge tool for such. I realize this puts me in a minority.

[Ninian]

I dunno. I like playing healing jobs to their fullest extent as healers, and Trance is a huge tool for such. I realize this puts me in a minority.

That makes two of us~<3

I liked the way DNC played as a healer. I don't like how WHM plays as a healer so much... if that makes any sense. DNC was a super endurance-healer, you could cure for the duration of an event (Dynamis, Einherjar, etc etc) without resting etc. You were always doing something on DNC be it steps, sambas, engaging or waltzing. It was awesome. Key word was. :(

[Dooom]

I liked the way DNC played as a healer. I don't like how WHM plays as a healer so much... if that makes any sense. DNC was a super endurance-healer, you could cure for the duration of an event (Dynamis, Einherjar, etc etc) without resting etc. You were always doing something on DNC be it steps, sambas, engaging or waltzing. It was awesome. Key word was. :(

It makes perfect sense. I always feel active and engaged on dancer, whereas on whm I don't feel that way quite so much even when I know I am. I barely get to use dnc these days though due to the problems outlined in this thread, so I shall simply lend my voice to those looking for some sort of fix to make us a viable healer again.

[Renesmay]

Even if they make Waltz II and place the healing waltz and CW 4-5 and have Waltz for CW1-3 and the divine. or vica versa with the healing/ divine I personally tend to run with a Monkx2 and a DRK with me as DNC so I use cure 4-5 quite alot since im the only actual healer and the all compete to see who can do most dmg ><

[Onii]

Yes, please. I have been wanting this type of thing for forever long. Being a main dancer im always the main or support healer for my raiding parties as well as 2nd tank. So its gets really hectic when you have to choose between healing yourself, healing your party members or choosing to take off a debuff vs keeping yourself alive. So lower or different timers would be a insanely great change!

[Byrth]

If your interest is curing HP against AoE spam, Trance could be better. Benediction is nice because it takes your party from whatever you're at and instantly restores you to full HP with no status debuffs.

[Kasandaro]

That makes two of us~<3

I liked the way DNC played as a healer. I don't like how WHM plays as a healer so much... if that makes any sense. DNC was a super endurance-healer, you could cure for the duration of an event (Dynamis, Einherjar, etc etc) without resting etc. You were always doing something on DNC be it steps, sambas, engaging or waltzing. It was awesome. Key word was. :(

I like WHM as a healer - in settings where I can break out the hammers and Boon things while healing. Or if it's a busybusybusy situation. (One healer for frog camp? Sign me up!) Dynamis? Yeah, I bring a book.


If your interest is curing HP against AoE spam, Trance could be better. Benediction is nice because it takes your party from whatever you're at and instantly restores you to full HP with no status debuffs.

Yep, Trance could be better - there are days I swear even at the 6s Trance leaves the Waltzes at. And Benediction is great against huge aoe damage - but only the first hit of it. (Benediction's rant is irrelevant to this forum, anyway.)

What would you do to Trance, Byrth, if I may ask? Only thing I could think of is to maybe give it aspects from Saber and Fan Dances while up, without the actual merit ability penalties.

[Maquis]

This is indeed a problem. When I play on DNC, I make it clear to my group that they should not expect me to main heal.

Would love to see a flourish with its own recast timer that resets your waltz timer.

[Byrth]

Yep, Trance could be better - there are days I swear even at the 6s Trance leaves the Waltzes at. And Benediction is great against huge aoe damage - but only the first hit of it. (Benediction's rant is irrelevant to this forum, anyway.)

What would you do to Trance, Byrth, if I may ask? Only thing I could think of is to maybe give it aspects from Saber and Fan Dances while up, without the actual merit ability penalties.

As a 2-hour, it can't be expected to play a role in most strategies. We should be thankful that it has a use at all. If I could add anything to it, I'd reduce Waltz recast to 5 seconds while it's active and add 1x Remove status to every Waltz. So if you did Divine Waltz, it would take off one status as if you'd done Healing Waltz on every target. Sort of like an extended Benediction, which is already how we use it. Just thinking of times when I've used Trance only to get Paralyzed and spend half the duration spamming Healing Waltz on myself.

[Nosboh]

Agreed. Do something about waltz timers.

[scaevola]

What bothers me is not even so much that I have to rely on Curing Waltz III to actually function as a main healer, but that if I do so, my "main healer" status is moot because I generate so much enmity between dropping those heals and meleeing to generate the TP to do so that I end up tanking anyway.

It's not strictly speaking a problem because frankly DNC is such a powerful Abyssea tank as it is that I can adequately plan to pull and hold aggro whenever somebody suggests I ought to be a healer, but it's frustratingly limiting to know that I literally cannot support another tank with heals unless I use Atma of the Sea Daughter and give up on half the things I'm capable of doing as a DNC.

It's the enmity that's the big deal for me, not the TP-to-heal ratio or anything else.

[hiko]

curing/healing flourish?

[Kasandaro]

As a 2-hour, it can't be expected to play a role in most strategies. We should be thankful that it has a use at all. If I could add anything to it, I'd reduce Waltz recast to 5 seconds while it's active and add 1x Remove status to every Waltz. So if you did Divine Waltz, it would take off one status as if you'd done Healing Waltz on every target. Sort of like an extended Benediction, which is already how we use it. Just thinking of times when I've used Trance only to get Paralyzed and spend half the duration spamming Healing Waltz on myself.

(Hope SE is reading this thread, cause that's an awesome idea.)

Thought Trance floored the Waltz recast to 6s anyway? Or is my memory gone?


curing/healing flourish?

Might work. Elaborate?

[Byrth]

Yeah, it reduces it to 6 seconds right now. If we knock 1 more second off we can Waltz a little faster, which I'd find useful sometimes. If we wanted to give it a more offensive bend so it would be useful in other situations, +25-50% Attack during Trance wouldn't be too broken. Attack is the biggest thing we lack for DDing at the moment, so it'd be even more useful during zergs.

[hideka]

all waltzes need to be on seperate timers. and as a counterbalance, id even go as far as lenghtening their recasts a bit. DNC is pretty much a back up healer at the moment.

[Rieul]

I pretty much agree with this post, the only time I ever use CW5 is during a Trance.
The limitations on Healing Waltz and Curing Waltz were well intentioned for a 'balanced' game-play between classes. However now they only serve to gimp a DNC's capabilities as a front-line healer.
If there was some way to keep the restrictions in place for DNC as a support role job and "unlock" the timers on DNC as a main job… I'm fairly certain more people would be happy then not.
(well, maybe not the ppl who /dnc but who really cares about them anyways? :p)

[Thelona]

Well my thought to dancer healing in a balanced manner is just create a new stance similar to fan/saber. drop the global cooldown while in stance at the cost of weaponskills being locked. seems balanced to me anyway.

[Madvin]

Wow that's a great idea.
In the spirit of hasso/seigan, a stance that greatly lowers / removes waltz recasts at the expense of DD capabilities (previous poster said you cant use WSs, and I like that idea). And perhaps a corresponding mutually exclusive stance that... oh I don't know, 15% JA haste but you cant use waltzes. Whatever.

Though to be honest I'd just prefer to have some more waltz ability delay minus gear to macro in :)

[Dragen]

Give each waltz it's own timer and I'd be quite happy. In a similiar vein, I've always hated how Collaborator and Accomplice for THF share the same timer as well.

[Amanie]

im all for fixing waltzes and improving dnc in other areas as well.

but do we really have to give suggestions on how to "gimp" dnc at the same time? i understand your want of keeping balance so others dont whine, but..... cant we just have our cake/pie without the calories?

[Sorka]

The recast timers get me killed 9/10 times which is why im thankful my evasion is so high >< Let's me live just a little bit longer to pop my CW3. I kinda wish I could have Retaliation though...

[Khadin]

How about a Presto type JA (not presto or shared timer though) that reduces the next waltz recast 50% or maybe 75%. it could be on a 30 sec cooldown and maybe even enhance waltzs. Maybe make Healing waltz aoe and increacse curing waltzs by 20%.

[Byrth]

I'd approve of a Divine Seal style Waltz enhancing JA, but it doesn't fix the underlying problem and we couldn't use it when regularly healing. The main benefit of Waltz is that it's instant. Having to stack another JA with it means that we're taking a minimum of 1 second longer to cure someone and might as well be on White or Red Mage casting a Cure spell.

They just need to split Waltzes into Waltzes I and Waltzes II, with odd Waltzes in group I and even Waltzes in group II. Healing Waltz could be part of Waltzes II. A reduction of Waltz IV and V's recasts by 5 seconds each at the same time wouldn't hurt anything either.

[Darksavage]

So I Think i must be the only dancer out there that doesn't use CW 3. I almost never try to be the healing dancer tho. I don't even have a macro for anything other that CW5 witch i macro in all my curing gear. I really only use DNC for solo or to tank and i tent to be able to solo better than most of the dancers i have seen on my server. I would love to see dancer get the cure timers split it would save me lots of time by allowing me to solo in less eva gear sense i would be able to cure my self more often and at the required level. I'm got to say that most people don't even think of dancer as a MAIN healer at least not for anything that really matters. In Abyssea Dancer is simply a good tank good DD and decent back up healer it think it would be way over powered to have timers reduced and have timers split. I would love it but i would be over powered. So SE please look at which would give the best balance i believe that splitting the timers into 2 groups would be best, but not this even odd stuff people have been saying that just doesn't make sense for the people leveling it get waltz group 1 and waltz group 2 and each would only have 1 spell it in that just seems weird. i think that should have CW 1-3 in 1 group and 4-5 in 1 group and maybe have the AOE heals on their own timer or have them split between the 2 groups. As far as healing waltz i think should be with the 1-3 group sense it is a lower level ability anyway.

[Kaeoni]

I agree that CW4 and 5 are generally worthless and do need some slight adjustments. Healing Waltz is also a pain sadly. However...

From a whm's perspective, at what point does it become too much. The game is about balance and be it inside or outside Abyssea, given we dancer can melee it we never run out of TP.
If our timers are decreased at what point does whm become a 2nd rate healer to a dancer.

Dancer CW are instantaneous and the only piece of gear that effects their speed is anwig salade with -2 waltz timer.
Not only that it has the ability to pull massive amounts of hate and effectively mitigate dmg like a champ.

What it would reduce whm too is a Na and Ra caster, Silena, Barfira ect. Brd/whm just took over because it can song/spell haste. No mater how i look at it, if timers are decreased in some way in which it would actually make a difference to us, I can't get the thought out of my head that it may very well make whm a dead job other than against something a dancer cannot melee, which is what exactly? Dancer is a pretty widely accepted job now and if it can cure spam, it sure will be attacking whatever you're fighting.

On top of all this people are concerned about kill speed and time management. Dnc is to whm as nin is to pld is what i could be so bold as to say if this were to happen. The DD, More effective version, time management, boss.

I'm not saying decreased timers are a bad thing because its 100% true CW4 and 5 are 100% worthless outside of the lazy cure bomb. And looking at the job alone, i say yes, it needs decreased timers. But when i think of the jobs as a whole i think it might mess too much with whm's specialty.

[Byrth]

I don't think WHM is in any real danger of being unseated as the healer of choice for boss fights or whatever. The average dancer is so terribly incompetent that they might be even worse than the average WHM.

Even if we had the same JAs on the recasts as their WHM spell corollary, WHM would still be a better healer than us thanks to their JAs and healing gear. They can also stay out of range and still main heal. We have to be constantly attacking. AoE Terror, AoE Paralyze, AoE Amnesia, AoE petrify... any of those things, and we're done!

But yeah, I'd love to see a BRD/WHM, DNC/SAM, COR/NIN, 3x DD old-style merit party if we get a Waltz re-work.

[Meowryu]

Waltzes I:
Curing Waltz I
Curing Waltz II
Curing Waltz III
Divine Waltz I

Waltzes II:
Curing Waltz IV
Curing Waltz V
Divine Waltz II
Healing Waltz


Fix'd?

[Byrth]

No, haha. God, erase it before SE sees. We need 4 and 5 on different timers.

[Alkalinehoe]

No, haha. God, erase it before SE sees. We need 4 and 5 on different timers.
That's asking a lot of SE.


Unfortunately.

[Meowryu]

No, haha. God, erase it before SE sees. We need 4 and 5 on different timers.

Being able to use III as often as you can right now and then a V right after if necessary seems better.

[Einalem]

I expect to get flamed for this... Suggestion:
Healing Waltz >>>> Healing Jig
Set TP cost to 0 and increase recast to somewhere around 30 seconds to 1:00 ish.
That would be one way of limiting an issue on the timers, not all though.
There are instances of status ailments outside of combat, this could be appropriate?

[Kasandaro]

I expect to get flamed for this... Suggestion:
Healing Waltz >>>> Healing Jig
Set TP cost to 0 and increase recast to somewhere around 30 seconds to 1:00 ish.
That would be one way of limiting an issue on the timers, not all though.
There are instances of status ailments outside of combat, this could be appropriate?

One word. Malboro. Healing Waltz's timer is bad enough as is. Moving it to 30s, regardless of the tp cost (and what DNC can't pull 20tp out of thin air), renders it pretty much useless.

Yes, HW needs fixing. Increasing the recast is possibly the last way to do it, though.

[Cowardlybabooon]

All these new JA suggestions sound creative and whatnot, but DNC is already incredibly hard to macro everything for and requires a ton of button masking to play to the fullest. We really just need an answer why the recast can't be adjusted.

[Urat]

I think what I'd rather just see is some -recast on waltz gear next update. Even -5 seconds on recast from shantotto pants makes my waltz gear a fucking godsend. I personally put move+12% waltz recast-5 on them.

[Byrth]

Haha, oh Urat. Desultor Tassets are Waltz Cost -5. Anwig Salade is Waltz Recast -2.

I think that flat Waltz Recast reduction gear is going to end up forcing us to glitch ourselves out spamming Waltz III over and over, making JA delay much more of an issue. I'd rather see them address the problem by just reducing the recasts of 4/5 and/or splitting the timers odd/even.

[Raksha]

I expect to get flamed for this... Suggestion:
Healing Waltz >>>> Healing Jig
Set TP cost to 0 and increase recast to somewhere around 30 seconds to 1:00 ish.
That would be one way of limiting an issue on the timers, not all though.
There are instances of status ailments outside of combat, this could be appropriate?

I always wanted a reraise jig that wouldn't give you any EXP back (to make it somewhat balanced).

[Urat]

Haha, oh Urat. Desultor Tassets are Waltz Cost -5. Anwig Salade is Waltz Recast -2.

I think that flat Waltz Recast reduction gear is going to end up forcing us to glitch ourselves out spamming Waltz III over and over, making JA delay much more of an issue. I'd rather see them address the problem by just reducing the recasts of 4/5 and/or splitting the timers odd/even.

I'm pretty sure we have a cap, and it wouldn't glitch us out by the same token performing 2 jas back to back doesnt glitch us out.

I think a floor of 5 second recast is quite fine, which would require a pretty large chunk of -recast.

How about "Dance Recast -10%" or something, lowers recast of all our dnc native JAs

[Byrth]

Curing Waltz III - 10 seconds (-2 = 8 seconds)
Curing Waltz IV - 17 seconds (-2 = 15 seconds)
Curing Waltz V - 23 seconds (-2 = 21 seconds)

Recast -10% would make them 7/13/18 seconds if it follows the way SE handles Haste/Fast Cast. Waltz III would still have about half the recast of Waltz IV and 2/5 the recast of Waltz V. The problem is that the recasts of Waltz IV/V are so high that even if you provide a change that affects high-recast items more (like a percentage), it is still insufficient to make them overtake Waltz III.

We just need them to lower the delays of Waltz IV and V and split the categories odd/even. It's the most logical fix, and I can't imagine it'd be that difficult really.

[Urat]

We just need them to lower the delays of Waltz IV and V and split the categories odd/even. It's the most logical fix, and I can't imagine it'd be that difficult really.

Spoken by someone who hasn't delved into socket and packet programming. FYI this is a shit tonne of work to do. They would need to set up an entire new ID to ping and check for recast, attach what JA IDs are connected to it, remove all those from Waltzes I. They would then need to code in the checks on client side to check for said recasts. Also all Waltz cost- and recast- effects, along with potency+ effects would need to be recoded to take into effect both types of waltzes since they're referencing two different IDs now.

Next, SE needs to go through and reconnect the IDs of all these recreated waltzes to the proper level at which you would learn them. Then this would follow with several weeks of debugging to try and figure out if they seriously fucked something up while making the fix.

[Byrth]

I would hope that they could do something as simple as what you're describing without seriously fucking something up, but these are the programmers that brought us 44000 damage Discoids and broke Zhayolm Frogs in seemingly unrelated patches.

[Fyreus]

Does anyone mix in cure potency to add onto the 30% cap? I'm not a pro dnc but i'm leveling it for healing reasons and i'm almost sure we can put some stuff on like d.legs with potency augs or does that count towards the cap too?


Also to Urat. SE updates and adds stuff quarterly. There is no reason they can't spend 3~9 months doing so.

[Raksha]

Spoken by someone who hasn't delved into socket and packet programming. FYI this is a shit tonne of work to do. They would need to set up an entire new ID to ping and check for recast, attach what JA IDs are connected to it, remove all those from Waltzes I. They would then need to code in the checks on client side to check for said recasts. Also all Waltz cost- and recast- effects, along with potency+ effects would need to be recoded to take into effect both types of waltzes since they're referencing two different IDs now.

Next, SE needs to go through and reconnect the IDs of all these recreated waltzes to the proper level at which you would learn them. Then this would follow with several weeks of debugging to try and figure out if they seriously fucked something up while making the fix.


They've split flourishes into 3 different categories.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to rename a few abilities and change some values (change "Waltzes" to "Waltzes2", change the recast variable (or subroutine or whatever) from "Waltzes" to "Waltzes2"), the potency stuff should already be in there and doesnt need to be changed.

Only thing resembling a programming language I know is perl, and even I could make these changes.

[scaevola]

I would hope that they could do something as simple as what you're describing without seriously fucking something up, but these are the programmers that brought us 44000 damage Discoids and broke Zhayolm Frogs in seemingly unrelated patches.

Fear of spaghetti code's a poor excuse for not fixing something that needs to be fixed. If a problem arises, you deal with it then. I should hope a qualified programmer would understand this.

Best spaghetti code story: back in the early-ish days of Ultima Online when nobody really knew what the hell they were doing, some random bug fix made sheep shoot fireballs. Origin had no idea what caused this, and after a few weeks of struggling with the problem they sent out a post on their forums to stay away from the sheep that now breathe fire until such a time as they could figure this one out. General consensus was that it was too hilarious to be mad about even if there were some intrepid early-adopters embracing unmatched-before-or-since MPK opportunities.