DD Trusts are terrible

[Byrth]

The Double CP Campaign has driven me to try and get some job points on Bard for the next update. I don't need songs when I'm playing BRD, so I called out Cherukiki and two DDs. Unfortunately, this exposed me to the horribleness that are Trust DDs. I am only killing ~Level 108 monsters, but I still do more than 10 times as much damage as the NPCs... on bard.

My conditions for this are:
* /checkparam reports I my average iLevel is 119
* The Trusts have capped hit rate
* The Trusts also get Victory March/Advancing March/Valor Minuet III/Mage's Ballad III/Haste Samba
If the NPCs were players, there would be no excuse for this kind of performance gap given the above information. The problem seems to be that they basically hit for 1/3 as much as me. I don't know if it's an attack issue or a base damage issue, but I suspect it's base damage.


Suggestions:
* Give NPCs Equipment Haste that matches their iLevel. - I know that gear slots have some kind of default Haste value now based on iLevel, so just sum that up and apply it to NPCs.
* Increase NPC base damage. - NPCs hit for 1/3 as much as players. You could double their damage and still not risk displacing players.


There would still be a massive DPS difference (between BRD/DNC and melee NPCs) after making these changes, but it will be a little less massive.

[Mirage]

I can attest to this as well. Trust DDs are really really bad. A melee job can be very well supported by the support Trusts, but a support/healing job is very poorly supported by melee Trusts.

[Rwolf]

I agree with the OP as well. Given how incredibly useful pure healer and support Trusts are, I see no logical reason for the damage capability of both Physical and Magical trusts not to be on par. Even if Trust NPCs dealt as much damage as a 119 DD. They still do not have the ability to actively think for themselves, adapt, and stack abilities at the right time. It wouldn't change anything with the current system, it would just allow jobs that are physical damage inept to be just as quick as a DD job with healer/support trusts.

[Camate]

Greetings,

A post I made previously in a separate thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/38859-Trust-Suggestions?p=496413&viewfull=1#post496413) talks about this very topic.

Since players are able to summon multiple alter egos at the same time, simply enhancing their stats would have a large effect on battle balance, so the team would like to look into this carefully.

In the future we will be implementing an alter ego customization feature, and the team is looking into making it so attack specialization can be one of the ways you can customize your alter egos. Once more information on this system has been finalized I’ll be sure to make a follow-up!

[Byrth]

Greetings,

A post I made previously in a separate thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/38859-Trust-Suggestions?p=496413&viewfull=1#post496413) talks about this very topic.

Since players are able to summon multiple alter egos at the same time, simply enhancing their stats would have a large effect on battle balance, so the team would like to look into this carefully.

In the future we will be implementing an alter ego customization feature, and the team is looking into making it so attack specialization can be one of the ways you can customize your alter egos. Once more information on this system has been finalized I’ll be sure to make a follow-up!


Previous Post:

Greetings!

We've been seeing some feedback mentioning that when fighting high level monsters, Trust alter egos' accuracy and attack power felt somewhat low and would not rise above a certain value.

The stats on alter egos have been slightly scaled back at the upper echelons of item levels. Originally, Trust alter egos were developed to aid low level adventurers and for when adventuring solo, so if you are out fighting against strong enemies in Outer Ra’Kaznar, you may feel accuracy or other stats are a bit lacking.

However, we understand that you would like to use alter egos even at the high levels and we checked up on some tips to make it easier to use your alter ego.


Procure equipment with high item levels
Trust alter ego stats reference the average item level of your equipment. Due to this, instead of worrying about individual parameters, just wearing equipment with higher item levels will boost the stats of the alter egos you use. To give you an example, if you go from wearing two pieces of item level 109 equipment and then trade them out for two pieces of 117 equipment from Records of Eminence, the alter ego’s accuracy will increase close to 10%.


Utilize support effects
Trust alter egos are treated the same was as if they were another player in your party, so all support effects such as spells, songs, and rolls can be applied to them. By applying these buffs to support-type alter egos or those with a support-type support job, their accuracy will increase further.



Though for the future, we are currently looking into elements that will allow you to boost the special characteristics of Trust alter egos, which will also in turn increase their stats. :)


OP:

The Double CP Campaign has driven me to try and get some job points on Bard for the next update. I don't need songs when I'm playing BRD, so I called out Cherukiki and two DDs. Unfortunately, this exposed me to the horribleness that are Trust DDs. I am only killing ~Level 108 monsters, but I still do more than 10 times as much damage as the NPCs... on bard.

My conditions for this are:
* /checkparam reports I my average iLevel is 119
* The Trusts have capped hit rate
* The Trusts also get Victory March/Advancing March/Valor Minuet III/Mage's Ballad III/Haste Samba
If the NPCs were players, there would be no excuse for this kind of performance gap given the above information. The problem seems to be that they basically hit for 1/3 as much as me. I don't know if it's an attack issue or a base damage issue, but I suspect it's base damage.


Suggestions:
* Give NPCs Equipment Haste that matches their iLevel. - I know that gear slots have some kind of default Haste value now based on iLevel, so just sum that up and apply it to NPCs.
* Increase NPC base damage. - NPCs hit for 1/3 as much as players. You could double their damage and still not risk displacing players.


There would still be a massive DPS difference (between BRD/DNC and melee NPCs) after making these changes, but it will be a little less massive.


Thanks for replying, Camate.

As far as balance issues, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. My 4-song Mythic BRD/DNC (my best mage soloer) cannot match my DNC/SAM's CP/hr rate because it lacks DPS. It lacks DPS even though it trades 2 BRD Trusts for 2 DD trusts. I assumed the purpose of Trusts and providing a variety of Trust roles was to enable lowman content for all jobs. If that's the case, then a DD Trust boost would provide balance by enabling mages to utilize the system effectively.

The question is then how to accomplish it. In my post, I wasn't talking about their accuracy or (probably) attack/stats, because as far as I can tell those are acceptable. I was talking about their lack of Haste from the "equipment" category and base weapon damage. It is standard for melee to have at least 25% Equipment Haste just by putting on iLevel gear now, but Trusts appear to receive 0% Equipment Haste. When stacked with Haste and March x2, 25% equipment Haste increases DPS by 80%. This feels like oversight rather than some intentional nerf to trust damage, so I adjust Trust DPS by fixing that first. After that, you could do the remaining adjustments using Trust base damage.

[Windwhisper]

Oh please. Let us enable/disable certain behaviour.

Joachim doesnt need throwing. I so wish that i could disable it. Thank you

[Glamdring]

can't say I approve of this, having to spend what is most likely going to turn out to be massive grind time just get trust NPC's to doing what any real player of that class should be doing regardless, i.e. a sam like Ayame self-skillchaining, etc. and there are certain silly limitations as we speak, ex. why does a 119 Cherrukki only have access to Regen 3 when all other whms would have regen 4? shouldn't Ajido be casting refresh on himself and the other mages given his /rdm? you get the ideas.

[saevel]

Oh please. Let us enable/disable certain behaviour.

Joachim doesnt need throwing. I so wish that i could disable it. Thank you

I just want to be able to have some sort of control over their songs. I'm so tired of being on WAR or BLU and getting Paeon Paeon Ballad Ballad, or some other crap. The BRD's AI's seem really really bad, they seem almost random.

[Blah]

Actually he casts mage's ballad and army's paeon for himself....when he's down 20 mp or hp....selfish jerk.

[Demonjustin]

I really think they should also use Pianissimo, it would help a ton with getting the wrong songs. I'm leveling RDM still, I almost always have a PLD tanking, that PLD sometimes gets low on HP and as a result I get the wrong songs. I think if they used Pianissimo we would get the right songs more often and it could even allow the NPC to determine the songs they cast depending on the job you're on and a set of variables rather than how it is now where it seems to be nothing but variables like HP/MP.

[Lithera]

According to BG's wiki Ulmia occasionally uses it but I haven't seen her do it my self. Not sure what the trigger is/would be for her to do so.

[Mefuki]

While I was leveling COR she'd use it constantly. Which was more annoying then useful because she'd replace my March with Archer's Prelude. Still I thought it was cool that she seemed to notice I was on a ranged job.

[Babekeke]

I used trusts while I was levelling up GEO from 1-10 so that I could do the level sync RoE quest.

The DD Trusts were still terrible. The only way to utilise Trusts effectively when on a mage or support job, is to use BLM Trusts to deal the damage for you and re-summon them every time the recast is up to replen their MP.

When on a DD job yourself, the only question is which WHM to use along with the 2 BRDs. It's a shame really.

[Kimjongil]

As a DD, Zeid works well. Other DD's don't keep up. Zed does do dmg, and heals himself. I do wish he get a stronger weapon skill like ground strike, resolution, though.

[Byrth]

As a DD, Zeid works well. Other DD's don't keep up. Zed does do dmg, and heals himself. I do wish he get a stronger weapon skill like ground strike, resolution, though.

Well, for the camp where I farm job points for Bard:
Prishe > Lion > Migho > Tenzen > Zeid

Prishe uses H2H and gets Martial Arts. Lion and Migho do piercing damage and there are some Twitherym in my camp. Zeid would be about as good as Tenzen (or better), but he wastes time casting spells that don't matter.

[Rwolf]

Luzaf is pretty good in some combinations. I haven't seen if he gets TP from Quick Draw. I assume that he does since in general he does not have a hard time getting TP. Main reason I like him is he is the smartest Trust when it comes WS selection. He will always attempt a Level 3 skillchain if possible and use TP if no one in the party is close to 100TP. I like to use Tenzen and Luzaf on jobs where I don't gain TP quickly or on mages where I plan to Spirit Taker/Myrkr MP back. The two of them I found almost always will do Darkness skillchain off each other. Grizzly Horizon is a conal ability, but it's so small that usually I never see him hit anything else with it.

I agree with the main consensus. DD Trusts are horrible compared to Support Trusts. It might help DD Trusts slightly by maxing them at 119 with gear and buffs, but buffs only do so much. I agree with Byrth that it is likely a base damage issue. Saying that Trusts weren't meant to be real party members is a copout excuse to fix them. I don't think anyone wants Trusts to replace real party members. But they should be at least equivalent to the power you get with 3 support/healer trusts and a DD job.

[Lithera]

Luzaf and the automatons both like to SC off of you or each other. Luzaf at least when I used him seemed to be semi more aware if you had a link that was sleeping or not when it came to which ws he would use unlike lion or perishe. They would go oh, sorry I forgot you slept that. My bad.

[Olor]

Agreed the DDs suck.

Also WTF is with the COR that doesn't even TRY to do rolls?

[Lithera]

Maybe he doesn't because Odin doesn't want him to? Lol

[Raka]

Ironically enough, Maat and Najelith seem to do quite decent damage. I haven't yet attempted to use either of them on a job that requires exp still to level however. For what it's worth though, endgame-wise with Alter Egos....So far I am pleased doing stuff as MNK/WAR with Mihli Aliapoh, Najelith, and Maat. Sometimes will swap Mihli out for Cherukiki just for Haste, etc.. I haven't tested Zeid since they -fixed- him yet, can anyone see a difference in his DPS?

[Camate]

Greetings,

Thanks for the additional feedback. We’re continuing to pass along your thoughts on alter egos to the development team.

On a side note, I haven’t seen this mentioned around here just yet, so I wanted to let you know that there is a secret aspect for Aldo (as well as Zeid and Lion). Using these alter egos in a party with each other (two or three of them) will boost their power a bit, so if you’re looking for damage try out this triumvirate of melee fighters.

[Sekhmet]

Greetings,

Thanks for the additional feedback. We’re continuing to pass along your thoughts on alter egos to the development team.

On a side note, I haven’t seen this mentioned around here just yet, so I wanted to let you know that there is a secret aspect for Aldo (as well as Zeid and Lion). Using these alter egos in a party with each other (two or three of them) will boost their power a bit, so if you’re looking for damage try out this triumvirate of melee fighters.

Interesting. Are there any other combinations like this? Nashmeira and the 2 autos perhaps? If this hasn't been done for other combos yet, may I suggest that some kind of Trust combo bonus be implemented? Perhaps a combo where 3 would get a bonus to magic accuracy and magic attack or the like. Seems to me this could make certain underused Trusts more viable and add a bit of strategy for different situations.

[Babekeke]

Interesting. Are there any other combinations like this? Nashmeira and the 2 autos perhaps? If this hasn't been done for other combos yet, may I suggest that some kind of Trust combo bonus be implemented? Perhaps a combo where 3 would get a bonus to magic accuracy and magic attack or the like. Seems to me this could make certain underused Trusts more viable and add a bit of strategy for different situations.

Using other combos from the same storyline certainly gets different quotes from them when you call them. I believe that it's already been said that the 2 autos get a bonus when being used with Nashmeira, too.

[Ophannus]

He's probably talking about this which was posted today on FFXIAH. When Aldo was used with Lion, he gains a substantial attack speed boost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mSOQ1A7SY4

[MDenham]

As far as Trust combo boosts, I wouldn't mind seeing varying ones for each of the possible sets of Serpent Generals - though I could understand if coming up with ten different ones (only four now, but six more sets become possible if/when we get Rughadjeen as an option) is an issue.

[Raka]

It's an obvious given....but has anybody really noticed any form of boost with any combination of the Serpent Generals so far?

[Mithlas]

Greetings,

A post I made previously in a separate thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/38859-Trust-Suggestions?p=496413&viewfull=1#post496413) talks about this very topic.

Since players are able to summon multiple alter egos at the same time, simply enhancing their stats would have a large effect on battle balance, so the team would like to look into this carefully.

In the future we will be implementing an alter ego customization feature, and the team is looking into making it so attack specialization can be one of the ways you can customize your alter egos. Once more information on this system has been finalized I’ll be sure to make a follow-up!

Hey Camate, I know this is quite an old post. Any news on this?

[Aysha]

I got excited when I saw that post.... but then I saw the date was 2014 and I was like "uh, nope. Guess they ain't doing that."

I'd love to turn Valaineral's Uriel Blade off in some situations (when I'm fighting near mobs that don't aggro or link for example), or I'd love to tell Kupipi not to spam Slow/Paralyze when I don't need it, I'd love to make a healer NPC wait longer to use heals (or use heals sooner), or how about telling Adelheid not to use heals unless I'm 25% or lower so she isn't wasting MP and/or DPS time on heals?

It would also be awesome to be able to get DDs to stand BEHIND the mob, instead of in front of it. Can't count the number of times I almost lost battles because Kupipi loves to stand in front of mobs with deadly cone attacks and she ends up sucking up all the MP because I can't get either Valaineral or Kupipi to MOVE out of the way.

In fact, ALL Trusts that are not tanks should be programmed to stand to either the sides of the rear of the mob.

[Domille]

It's the simple things that we can't get them to adjust sadly.

Anyone with a brainstem knows trust positioning is just terrible. Such an easy fix, but not enough complaints yet.

FFXII's Gambit system and logical party positioning <Can I have it?> <please>

In the mean time, call trusts in order...

What i mean is call tank first and healer last, it can help improve positioning, somewhat. Also, change to Yoran Oran UC and drop kupipi. Yoran is amazing.

[Aysha]

Can't change to Yoran UC, because I'm using Apururu UC, and I love Apururu... the ONLY thing I wish she didn't do was drag GEO trusts all over the place.

But you can remedy that by calling her out last. Apururu has Convert, she uses Nott, and she's not afraid to Curaga (I love that, esp when something has Sleep).