Solo Accomplishments, Party Barriers, and Enhancing the Community

[Camate]

Hello,

We've been receiving a lot of feedback lately with the influx of new content in regards to difficulties joining parties, the ability to accomplish things solo, and other requests to make the game more enjoyable. I'd like to share the below comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui in response to this feedback.



Matsui here.

Thanks for all the feedback. Looking over everyone’s thoughts and opinions, I feel that there are three groups of players: those that want solo growth elements, those that want to join parties more easily, and those that want a way to be able to practice and learn content.


Reaching item level 119 gradually by spending time solo
As there are a variety of different play styles, I understand that there are players who are not able to join parties, and as such we are currently looking into a route that will allow you to reach item level 119 solo by gradually spending time working towards it.

Before we do this, we’d like to make some adjustments to wildskeeper reives. (However, please don’t take this as we will be adding item level 119 equipment to wildskeeper reives.)


Difficulty joining pick-up parties
Due to the nature of pick-up parties, there is a trend of increasing the requirements for joining so that the success rate can be boosted, and I feel that this cannot be avoided.

One role of linkshells and other forms of community is for situations like this so the players that are ahead can help support the players that are behind. I think the best thing players who feel it difficult to join parties can do is to play together with like-minded friends if you are trying to challenge content geared towards parties.

While it’s a bit in the future, we are currently looking into enhancing linkshell features and other ways to support communities.

As we are still in the planning phases I cannot say at the moment exactly how we will be doing this, but the development team feels this is something that needs to be addressed. Communities are not something that can only be built with a system, so we would appreciate your help and cooperation to make the game even more enjoyable.

Besides this, we imagined job points to be content that would be enjoyed by parties, so with the addition of chain bonuses and other adjustments, I think the opportunities to form low barrier parties will increase.


Not enough opportunities to practice and learn content
This is an issue closely tied with what I was mentioning about community.

To start out, we will be making it so you can use Trust alter egos in party settings and we will also be increasing the content where you can utilize alter egos. With these adjustments, I feel it’s the first step towards making it easier to challenge low-difficulty content with groups that are just short of 6 players.

We’ve also been receiving a lot of feedback about the high costs associated with entering content, and we will be looking into reducing entry costs gradually for content after a certain amount of time passes from implementation.


We’ll continue to focus on making Vana’diel even more enjoyable.

[Olor]

Great news! thank you! I am thankful the developers are aware of the issue where people get stuck because they have not done the content and people who clear it first only want to play with other people with similar gear. It's very frustrating for those of us with small linkshells who have fallen behind.

Also it would be awesome if wildskeeper gear was better than sparks gear. It really bothers me that I worked hard to get skirmish level 1 gear and wildskeeper gear but I feel like I need to wear UGLY sparks gear because it has a higher item level even though it was much easier to attain.

Could you also consider in the future not choosing the most ugly, noob-looking gear for things like sparks gear? I believe this further drives a wedge in the community because even though this gear is rather good in terms of stats, it looks so terrible people automatically think you are a bad player when they see you wearing it.

Please also keep in mind that systems like voidwatch, which reward players for taking many different kinds of jobs, are actually a great leveler when it comes to community. If you design content where there is room for people with less than perfect gear (or who have specialized skills/gear sets that are easier to obtain) can participate, it helps alleviate this problem

The only time in the game where I felt included with current endgame content was during the voidwatch era, because even though I did not have an ultimate weapon, I was still useful to the group as a blue mage working on procs.

Please consider creative ways of strengthening pick up group content.

Also please consider adjusting jobs like BST, SMN, PUP, GEO, RUN that do not really have a place in endgame. You can start by considering the plea from users of PET JOBS in the general forum.

Part what is keeping people from playing together is the inbalance in job strength. There are some jobs that are good at everything and other jobs that are almost useless. This leaves people who level those jobs out of current endgame content.

[Siviard]

One role of linkshells and other forms of community is for situations like this so the players that are ahead can help support the players that are behind. I think the best thing players who feel it difficult to join parties can do is to play together with like-minded friends if you are trying to challenge content geared towards parties.


The bolded section is the most inaccurate piece of blabber I think I've ever seen by Matsui. Sadly, the opposite is true. Players who have better gear and are "ahead of the game" do their best to REJECT players who are behind and won't allow them to come along for endgame content.

Don't have Aegis/Ochain on your Paladin? You're not wanted. Don't have Gjallarhorn or Daurdalba on your Bard? Leave now. Don't have Annihilator 119 on your Ranger? Don't bother responding. etc. etc.

[Puck]

As there are a variety of different play styles, I understand that there are players who are not able to join parties, and as such we are currently looking into a route that will allow you to reach item level 119 solo by gradually spending time working towards it.
That's cool, thanks. Maybe halve the sparks cost for all chapters, and more add ways to acquire expensive upgrade materials? A lot of the people who're being left behind and unable to play often also don't have steady sources of income.


Due to the nature of pick-up parties, there is a trend of increasing the requirements for joining so that the success rate can be boosted, and I feel that this cannot be avoided.As was already pointed out, the devs still don't really understand the actual reason people are being left out. It's not because they can't get decent iLvl gear, sparks gear is good enough to get your foot in the door. No, it's about the restrictive nature of group content that encourages players to only bring certain jobs with certain gear. The community leaves them out because people don't like wasting time. Even among linkshells, groups tend to only bring jobs that give them the highest chance of success.

If you want a good chance at joining an event, you need to be playing one of a handful of desired jobs, and even then you need certain pieces of gear that are very time-consuming to acquire. Why spend hours collecting people for Delve and settle for a PLD that doesn't have Ochain or Aegis, thereby decreasing the chance of success? Or settle for a BRD with only 2 songs, when the BRD with Daurdabla is basically worth a BRD an a half or TWO BRDs just by having extra songs? Yes, success can be achieved with less-than-optimal setups, but with each concession the chance of failure increases.

Surely there must be a way to adjust content so group content isn't so restrictive. But no, I don't think Voidwatch is a good example. I don't think forcing groups to bring as many different jobs as possible is the way to go. All that did was made forming groups take longer and encouraged people to level jobs they didn't care about just to get those procs.

Content that rewards every player every time they participate is great, like the personal rewards chests in VW and WoE, or the guaranteed chapters in AA battles. Systems involving reward points are good, too, since it allows players to get closer to their goal even if they didn't get the drop they wanted, such as plasm. What if there were optional objectives that gave everyone in the party extra plasm or other rewards for bringing along a few people playing not-so-optimal jobs?

Or better yet, just adjust those jobs. Make them better. Make it so a job isn't completely useless without one or two specific pieces of gear. The devs should be studying pick-up /yells and gathering data on the party and gear set-ups used in every successful run, then look at that content and figure out why only certain jobs are used and adjust that content and those jobs accordingly.

[Demonjustin]

The bolded section is the most inaccurate piece of blabber I think I've ever seen by Matsui. Sadly, the opposite is true. Players who have better gear and are "ahead of the game" do their best to REJECT players who are behind and won't allow them to come along for endgame content.

Don't have Aegis/Ochain on your Paladin? You're not wanted. Don't have Gjallarhorn or Daurdalba on your Bard? Leave now. Don't have Annihilator 119 on your Ranger? Don't bother responding. etc. etc.That's part of what he's talking about though. He's not saying that's what shells are doing, but rather that's what they're supposed to do. He understands the community is stuck in a rut where we're not performing that duty and instead players are being left behind the way you mentioned. Look at what he was talking about before that...


Due to the nature of pick-up parties, there is a trend of increasing the requirements for joining so that the success rate can be boosted, and I feel that this cannot be avoided.

and right after it...


As we are still in the planning phases I cannot say at the moment exactly how we will be doing this, but the development team feels this is something that needs to be addressed.

To me it sounds like he understands the issue entirely, and while they're not sure exactly how to address it, they understand it is something that does deserve some attention. It's not inaccurate to say that's the function they're supposed to serve, rather it would be if he were to say that's the function they are currently serving, at no point during that did I get the feel like he meant they're doing that right now.

[Demonjustin]

Something that caught my attention.


We’ve also been receiving a lot of feedback about the high costs associated with entering content, and we will be looking into reducing entry costs gradually for content after a certain amount of time passes from implementation.

You're looking into reducing entry costs gradually for content, but what content? Adoulin content is all fairly unchanging. You need 3 items to create the KI for entry to Skirmish, you can't really remove any of the 3, nor can you reduce the cost since it's market based. Delve requires a single stone, similar situation. The only current content I can think of with a variable cost are the Merit Point fights. But to get to my point, what content is being thought of here? Merit Points? Assaults? I'm interested. Assaults, Meebles, and a few other events could very much use these and the time past implementation is far gone.

[Raydeus]

It's good to see they have these issues in mind. And hopefully Fellows will be included in future plans to allow Trust in battlefields for solo players and small parties.

-----


The bolded section is the most inaccurate piece of blabber I think I've ever seen by Matsui. Sadly, the opposite is true. Players who have better gear and are "ahead of the game" do their best to REJECT players who are behind and won't allow them to come along for endgame content.

Don't have Aegis/Ochain on your Paladin? You're not wanted. Don't have Gjallarhorn or Daurdalba on your Bard? Leave now. Don't have Annihilator 119 on your Ranger? Don't bother responding. etc. etc.

That's a community issue, not a gameplay/design one. And he already understands the attitude players take and how they try to minimize risks as much as possible, he said it right there in his post.

In the older days when more people were playing and the community was much stronger it was not rare at all to have higher level players helping the LS. But nowadays with how sparse the community has become not many have the will or patience to help others. That is precisely why he also says he needs the help of players to make a better community with a better attitude, because mechanics alone are not enough at all.

[Byrth]

It's being cast as a community issue, but really it's not.

* You want a job that can survive essentially anything? You want an Ochain and Aegis PLD.
A PLD with a 50% shield block rate has a 50% chance of taking the same damage as any other melee. A PLD with a 100% block rate experiences a massive decrease in the odds they'll be oneshotted. Similarly, a PLD with -87.5% magic damage taken... well, doesn't really take magic damage. Pirwen is pushing towards closing this gap, but it's not really there yet.

* You want to fit two buffers into one party slot? You want a Daurd/G-horn BRD.
This is important because things like Delve bosses scale based on number of players. Daurd/G-horn BRD has a big advantage. The recent update where they let songs overwrite regardless duration and added an easily obtained 3-song instrument that went a long way towards closing this cap. It widened the gap between BRD and every other buffer, but that hasn't been a serious competition in forever.

* You want a competitive DD that won't pull hate off a Paladin? Your options are either a Yoichi RNG or Anni RNG.
OR THE DARK HORSE, PUP! (jk) If you don't have Yoichi or Anni, you're going to substantially gimp your DPS on Ranger to avoid pulling hate. Is it still possible to avoid pulling hate without these weapons? Sure, but you miss out.

[Kraggy]

Hello,

We've been receiving a lot of feedback lately with the influx of new content in regards to difficulties joining parties, the ability to accomplish things solo, and other requests to make the game more enjoyable. I'd like to share the below comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui in response to this feedback.
How about foloowing through on something which was brought up two years ago .. make the level 95 limit break soloable?

Still stuck at 95 because I don't have the gil to pay what people demand to 'help' and I'm damend if I'm standing in Jeuno for months shouting. Make it possible for me to get past 95 and I'll re-sub.

[Sapphire]

How about foloowing through on something which was brought up two years ago .. make the level 95 limit break soloable?

Still stuck at 95 because I don't have the gil to pay what people demand to 'help' and I'm damend if I'm standing in Jeuno for months shouting. Make it possible for me to get past 95 and I'll re-sub.

You can bring unlimited weakening items AND three trust NPCs to that battle. How much more soloable do you need?

I'm just curious.

[Rwolf]

I agree, it's not a community issue. It's a game balance issue. The community is not perfect and never will be. There will always be someone who will want more than is required. However, when they design content with devastating area of effect abilities and a broken enmity system. Players are naturally going to gravitate to the strategies used as of late.

Even if Paladin could hold hate against close range melee jobs with no assistance, melee jobs get plastered with area of effect damage. Which is why Relic weapon Rangers are so attractive right now. They get around the broken enmity system, they have high survivability and most of all high damage. It's the same reasons Monk is so popular, high survivability and damage output. A lot of "damage dealers" don't have the accuracy, defense, or buffs (especially for pet jobs) to justify their slot, you'll easily time out with a lot of jobs unless they were perfectly geared. Which defeats the purpose because most of it comes from the fights, some jobs are trying to get invited to.

Matsui needs to relinquish this vision that it's community responsibility to assist damage dealer jobs that are both not as durable or powerful, and support jobs that can't get close to White Mage or Bard. Why should any job be a help case? Shouldn't they all be equally helpful even if it's a different combination of jobs? It's one thing to help a friend, linkshell member or even a stranger get something that helps them be a better player. But it's entirely another to say the community is to blame that certain jobs are excluded from content. When the simple fact is certain jobs are just designed to best new content.

I honestly think they can't figure out how to make balanced challenging content without making it grossly overpowered. I don't claim to have all the answers but a few things would help:

Enfeebling effects need to matter more. (Example: Things like Blind should lower accuracy by a percentage. Attack Down should be more prevalent like defense down)
Look into expanding instanced areas and increasing/removing timers. (Timers are obviously put on content to throttle congestion. However if everything is a time race, there is no room for defensive groups. Just pure offense)
Give some alternative types of goals to high level content. (With expanding instances being unlikely: High level content with unconventional goals would expand job desirability. Meeble Burrows, Moblin Maze Mongers, and Assault are great examples of alternative goals)
Unpopular jobs need a boost. (Figure out what direction you really want Red Mage to accel at and finally do it, make pets more attractive to compete in high level content, Dancer needs a better way to spam status removal to be any semblance of a healer)
Magic Accuracy - There are so many awesome abilities and spells that could compete with other jobs if their magic accuracy didn't suck (Blue Mage, Dancer, etc)

It's not a compendium of the issues in the game, but just some suggestions on opening the currently severely limited way content difficulty is produced.

[Mefuki]

Crosspost from BGForums:

Low NA or EU population wouldn't be as big a problem if SE correctly implemented a sliding scale, from solo all the way up to 18-man, where monster statistics, reward quantity and drop rate/points earned(if it's a point/gear exchange system) scaled with how many you choose to bring. This way, you can log in and start playing any part of the game you want, shout for as much or as little as you want, while still giving incentives to partying up.

Either that or maybe make it so you can acquire the same gear from different sources. So, I don't know, maybe we could have the ability to buy fragments of Delve/other content weapons and armor as a Monipulator with PvP wins + Infamy? This would be important to give incentive to not only collect Infamy but also to stick around and fight battles to the end. And then, in order to fuse the parts into something usable, we'd have to challenge a version of the NM that drops that particular piece of gear that is scaled for MON Vs. MON combat? Or maybe introduce RoE AMAN vouchers for different gearsets and weapons that can be obtained from killing monster types/NM's that relate to that gear?

[Siviard]

It's good to see they have these issues in mind. And hopefully Fellows will be included in future plans to allow Trust in battlefields for solo players and small parties.

-----



That's a community issue, not a gameplay/design one. And he already understands the attitude players take and how they try to minimize risks as much as possible, he said it right there in his post.

In the older days when more people were playing and the community was much stronger it was not rare at all to have higher level players helping the LS. But nowadays with how sparse the community has become not many have the will or patience to help others. That is precisely why he also says he needs the help of players to make a better community with a better attitude, because mechanics alone are not enough at all.

I'm going to have to disagree with your assertion that the problem is a community issue and not a gameplay/design issue.

Here's why.

I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit. However, they did absolutely nothing to the NMs themselves, especially the Mega Bosses. The Mega Bosses still SPAM TP moves and those moves still have the power to destroy a full 18-person alliance. IMHO, that is a serious design flaw. Serious enough to the point that in order to defeat those Mega Bosses, only a select few jobs with very top-of-the-line gear (and 3rd party programs) have a shot at winning. Anything else involving a combination of different jobs? Complete and utter failure 100% of the time. Again, that is a very serious design flaw. NOT a Community problem.

Lets also not forget the very serious problem that is plaguing the 3 pet jobs (BST, SMN, PUP) despite the fact the pet job community has been asking, begging, and pleading for fixes, for ANYTHING that will help their job become wanted in any endgame content, have all fallen on deaf ears. Again, that is a design flaw, which then leads to the community issue.

[detlef]

I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit.Isn't this essentially the opposite of what Matsui said? How can you encourage veterans to invite noobies while simultaneously introducing content that discourages you from inviting noobies? Why do something with 18 people when 6 can accomplish the same thing and receive exactly the same drops as the alliance? Would you bring another person along for the win when it means the NMs will have thousands more HP and you have to split the drops with an additional person? You might think twice, right?

Why bring a full PT to Ra'kazner Skirmish when only one person can get the Transmelange key item? Seriously, why did they make it so terrible? Bringing another person lowers your chance of getting it and the chances were low to begin with. Why team up to earn capacity points when the penalty for PTing up is so steep? It makes more sense to XP solo with trusts that to PT up. It makes more sense to do Dynamis or Salvage solo rather than group up. The only content I can think of that encourages you to bring more players might be Divine Might where more players lets you tackle higher difficulty levels and everybody gets more Rem's Tales. Oh and Meebles too I guess, for what that's worth.

Basically the game gives you no incentive to PT up. Back in the day, the only downside to bringing a larger group was splitting the drops amongst more people. Now we have events where you have to split drops amongst more people and the content is harder.

[Demonjustin]

Isn't this essentially the opposite of what Matsui said? How can you encourage veterans to invite noobies while simultaneously introducing content that discourages you from inviting noobies? Why do something with 18 people when 6 can accomplish the same thing and receive exactly the same drops as the alliance? Would you bring another person along for the win when it means the NMs will have thousands more HP and you have to split the drops with an additional person? You might think twice, right?This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.

[Rubeus]

I literally had to go through the tedious process of logging in to the forums JUST to like your post... and it was worth it.

[Draylo]

This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.

Exactly what I warned about, but people don't know what they want.

[Vivivivi]

Hello,

....We’ve also been receiving a lot of feedback about the high costs associated with entering content, and we will be looking into reducing entry costs gradually for content after a certain amount of time passes from implementation.

This is great news, I would like to mention one important consideration when making these adjustments.

In Final Fantasy XIV, there is very little cost associated with entering battlefields. One one hand I absolutely love it. On the other hand, because there is little cost there is very little risk and as a result players frequently drop in the middle of a dungeon. The impact isn't so great because the duty finder system there allows for a replacement without having to restart the content.

In FFXI I would like the dev team to consider the fact that there is no Duty Finder, and the cost of entering content has some value in preventing other players from dropping in the middle of content because there is something at stake (whether it's merit points, skirmish segments, pop items, etc).

If the adjustments being considered are simply lowering merit points from 20 to 15 or 15 to 10, making skirmish segments more accessible, or slightly increasing the drop rate of trigger items, I'm all for that. But please please please do not create a situation where players joining pickup groups are likely to drop five minutes into content without a system like the duty finder in place to replace them. Whether or not it's intentional by design, FFXI (in general) has a nice balance of risk versus reward for challenging difficult content that I actually do miss when I play XIV and appreciate quite a bit when playing FFXI.

[dragmagi]

It also help if you got 1 fight per ki on high tier mission fights instead of needing whole pt to each have that ki, is like the orb battlefields.

[Siviard]

How can you encourage veterans to invite noobies while simultaneously introducing content that discourages you from inviting noobies?

My point EXACTLY!

As I've been saying, DESIGN FLAW that in turn leads to Community issue which leads to people being excluded from said content because they don't have the right jobs or the proper gear on the right jobs.

In essence.....FFXI has become BlueGartr

[Tennotsukai]

I agree, it's not a community issue. It's a game balance issue. The community is not perfect and never will be. There will always be someone who will want more than is required. However, when they design content with devastating area of effect abilities and a broken enmity system. Players are naturally going to gravitate to the strategies used as of late.

Even if Paladin could hold hate against close range melee jobs with no assistance, melee jobs get plastered with area of effect damage. Which is why Relic weapon Rangers are so attractive right now. They get around the broken enmity system, they have high survivability and most of all high damage. It's the same reasons Monk is so popular, high survivability and damage output. A lot of "damage dealers" don't have the accuracy, defense, or buffs (especially for pet jobs) to justify their slot, you'll easily time out with a lot of jobs unless they were perfectly geared. Which defeats the purpose because most of it comes from the fights, some jobs are trying to get invited to.

Matsui needs to relinquish this vision that it's community responsibility to assist damage dealer jobs that are both not as durable or powerful, and support jobs that can't get close to White Mage or Bard. Why should any job be a help case? Shouldn't they all be equally helpful even if it's a different combination of jobs? It's one thing to help a friend, linkshell member or even a stranger get something that helps them be a better player. But it's entirely another to say the community is to blame that certain jobs are excluded from content. When the simple fact is certain jobs are just designed to best new content.

I honestly think they can't figure out how to make balanced challenging content without making it grossly overpowered. I don't claim to have all the answers but a few things would help:

Enfeebling effects need to matter more. (Example: Things like Blind should lower accuracy by a percentage. Attack Down should be more prevalent like defense down)
Look into expanding instanced areas and increasing/removing timers. (Timers are obviously put on content to throttle congestion. However if everything is a time race, there is no room for defensive groups. Just pure offense)
Give some alternative types of goals to high level content. (With expanding instances being unlikely: High level content with unconventional goals would expand job desirability. Meeble Burrows, Moblin Maze Mongers, and Assault are great examples of alternative goals)
Unpopular jobs need a boost. (Figure out what direction you really want Red Mage to accel at and finally do it, make pets more attractive to compete in high level content, Dancer needs a better way to spam status removal to be any semblance of a healer)
Magic Accuracy - There are so many awesome abilities and spells that could compete with other jobs if their magic accuracy didn't suck (Blue Mage, Dancer, etc)

It's not a compendium of the issues in the game, but just some suggestions on opening the currently severely limited way content difficulty is produced.

I couldn't agree more.

[AppropriateName5786]

This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.

Actually, 6-man Delve would have been a terrific idea if Delve wasn't so badly designed to begin with. Delve's problems had nothing to do with how many people could go; they have always been 100% about content design. I was in the same boat as you and desperately wanted it to be low-man content, but the dev team's lack of foresight never fails to shock the players. The way they handled the Delve change was exactly like how they handled the Nyzul/Assault changes. Nothing is ever thought through before being implemented. They may as well just add a disclaimer saying: "If you were behind the curve on content, you can now enter solo, but you'll never succeed because we didn't take out the mechanics that prevented you from winning solo (same-time lamps etc.)." That is basically what we're seeing with Delve I now.



I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit. However, they did absolutely nothing to the NMs themselves, especially the Mega Bosses. The Mega Bosses still SPAM TP moves and those moves still have the power to destroy a full 18-person alliance. IMHO, that is a serious design flaw. Serious enough to the point that in order to defeat those Mega Bosses, only a select few jobs with very top-of-the-line gear (and 3rd party programs) have a shot at winning. Anything else involving a combination of different jobs? Complete and utter failure 100% of the time. Again, that is a very serious design flaw. NOT a Community problem.

This is the real reason why 6-man Delve failed. You needed (and waited 3 hours for) stun SCHs who cheated to win in Delve I before the change; you still need one now. MNK/SAM vs every other DD. WHM vs every other healer. BRD vs every other buffer. Indeed, not a community problem.

[Draylo]

Cheated? You can easily stun on SCH now that everyone shifted to Yorcia.... So players being bad is what caused delve to fail? You realize you don't have to stun anything in the new delve zones with a 6 man crew?

[AppropriateName5786]

I was referring to the first 3 Delve zones when talking about stun SCH. I haven't experienced any of the new fractures so I wouldn't know about them, but it would be an understatement to say they aren't very popular in general. I know quite a few old players who still don't have some of the original Delve wins (especially bee or shark), so the problem with stunning mega bosses is still very relevant for many players. And if you're saying that SCHs can stun Lahar/etc. 100% without cheating (i.e. using 3rd pt programs), well....sorry, but pics or it didn't happen.

[detlef]

Most people just watch for the TP charge animation and stun. It's not hard. Have you ever tried it?

[camaroz]

I was referring to the first 3 Delve zones when talking about stun SCH. I haven't experienced any of the new fractures so I wouldn't know about them, but it would be an understatement to say they aren't very popular in general. I know quite a few old players who still don't have some of the original Delve wins (especially bee or shark), so the problem with stunning mega bosses is still very relevant for many players. And if you're saying that SCHs can stun Lahar/etc. 100% without cheating (i.e. using 3rd pt programs), well....sorry, but pics or it didn't happen.

Incinerating Lahar is easily stunnable and the fact that Tojil actually readies it instead of just using it is well icing cause you have more than enough time to get prepared.

[Demonjustin]

While yes it's possible and easy to stun these moves due to animations that stick out, please, don't let this topic run off it's rails.

App was right for sure about the fact that they messed up scaling like with many other things before, where they once again did a simple blanket update and expected a simple little adjustment to HP to be enough to make everything alright whereas that wouldn't be close to enough. They didn't change DEF, EVA, or anything about it's attacks, and while I won't say it matters as much as it once did it still hurts low man groups considerably when you compare it to the BRD Swapping and CORs we used to take. 6-man runs change only the HP, that fact alone means that low-manning relies on much more skilled or more well geared players who can make up for the lack of extra buffs from party members, that's what's excluding people in the end. Had proper scaling been done we wouldn't need to sit here talking about it possibly because the issue may not be nearly as bad, but the fact they thought HP was the only factor standing in our way even while we used GEOs for EVA & DEF Down as well as MEVA and MAcc, let alone 2 SCHs to stun and 2 BRD/COR swapping parties before the fight, is what made it all the worse.

[Afania]

My point EXACTLY!

As I've been saying, DESIGN FLAW that in turn leads to Community issue which leads to people being excluded from said content because they don't have the right jobs or the proper gear on the right jobs.

In essence.....FFXI has become BlueGartr


This is not a "design flaw", this is just how our society works. Everyone play/work with like minded people.

I also never understand the logic behind "solo is da best" in a MMORPG. That's precisely the main reason why none of the current gen MMORPG doesn't last for longer than 3 months.

[Demonjustin]

This is not a "design flaw", this is just how our society works. Everyone play/work with like minded people.

I also never understand the logic behind "solo is da best" in a MMORPG. That's precisely the main reason why none of the current gen MMORPG doesn't last for longer than 3 months.In this case it's not about solo, it's about low-manning, the reason you need low-manning in this case is the content was demanding on jobs to the point many people got excluded from it, be they friends or not. Finding a group of like minded people who fit the 17 other slots you need them to in order to do content then at the same time doing said content successfully isn't easy. The reason it's partly a design flaw is due to the fact that the design is in such a way that it creates an issue within the community. If the content didn't require stunning for instance, we wouldn't demand Stun SCHs, without the demand for Stun SCHs there's more room for more jobs, and thus the requirements are more lax and people can join more easily. By designing it in such a way that NMs have moves like Lahar that are certain death for the party it only makes it so that Stun SCH is a near requirement, and as such players without it have a much harder time getting in, since Stun SCH isn't a super common thing it becomes a fairly niche spot to fill.

[Afania]

This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.

Pretty much this, I never had issue joining delve pt when it was 18 men, or less than 18 men and still took a few more leeches/friends for clear, now I have to try really hard to convince people to give me a spot because I don't have MNK SAM BRD WHM SCH RNG lol, and I had to reject people if they want to come. Nobody want to do 18 men anymore.

I never understand why everyone seems to hate 18 men content so much. IMO it isn't bad, there are more chance to meet more players, and build a stronger connections in the community.

The only reason why delve 1 18 men pt used to /shout forever, is because:

1. Pt can't find a BRD, GEO and SCH, and you just need them.

2. The shouter is notorious on the server.

No.1 is obviously job balance issue, not a 18 men alliance issue. No.2 is /shouter's own issue.

Delve should really reward 18 men alliance more. 6 men delve doesn't make everyone's life easier, but harder, unless you're MNK SAM BRD WHM SCH RNG.

[Siviard]

This is not a "design flaw", this is just how our society works. Everyone play/work with like minded people.

I also never understand the logic behind "solo is da best" in a MMORPG. That's precisely the main reason why none of the current gen MMORPG doesn't last for longer than 3 months.

I never advocated "solo is da best" as you say. I'm pointing out a severe design flaw in recent endgame content that only enables certain jobs to make any sort of progress.

And "this is how society works"? So much for "community" in an MMO, eh? Thank you very much for proving my point.

[Dreamin]

2. The shouter is notorious on the server.



So much truth in this one.

[hitori]

suggestion to delve
add difficulty setting
very easy - current 6 man content
easy - current 12 man content
normal - current 18 man content
of course adjust the reward accordingly less drops and less plasm at easier difficulty.
This would make it much easier for people who have yet to clear the content.

[AppropriateName5786]

Why not keep rewards the same for 6-person runs and increase the plasm for bigger groups? Why must things always gravitate towards punishing players/making things less rewarding and appealing? Do you really think decreasing mega boss plasm to 10-20k will make people run Delve 3 times as much to compensate? Did making relics useless at the start of the expansion motivate people to explore Adoulin blissfully for new weapons? For many, it will once again be the straw that broke the camel's back, but the game cannot take one more mass exodus.

With so few players left in the game, Delve needs to be changed so that duos and trios can accomplish things, much like Abyssea was after a while. Imagine if it took 6 people with the perfect setup and a stunbot SCH to beat any of the Empy item NMs. Let's just say there wouldn't have been enough players left from Abyssea for Adoulin to have been made.

[Draylo]

Why not keep rewards the same for 6-person runs and increase the plasm for bigger groups? Why must things always gravitate towards punishing players/making things less rewarding and appealing? Do you really think decreasing mega boss plasm to 10-20k will make people run Delve 3 times as much to compensate? Did making relics useless at the start of the expansion motivate people to explore Adoulin blissfully for new weapons? For many, it will once again be the straw that broke the camel's back, but the game cannot take one more mass exodus.

With so few players left in the game, Delve needs to be changed so that duos and trios can accomplish things, much like Abyssea was after a while. Imagine if it took 6 people with the perfect setup and a stunbot SCH to beat any of the Empy item NMs. Let's just say there wouldn't have been enough players left from Abyssea for Adoulin to have been made.

God no, quit and go play hello kitty online already.

[Olor]

Hello Kitty Online is notoriously grindy though...

[Siviard]

Most people just watch for the TP charge animation and stun. It's not hard. Have you ever tried it?

Looking for the "red lines" is easy, I'll give you that. But take into consideration the fact these bosses SPAM TP moves. What happens if your Stun timer is still down and Tojil uses Incinerating Lahar?

Game over.....

Checkmate.

[saevel]

This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.

This is just people being idiots. The difference between 6 man and 7 man is 5% HP. Can you, as an unsupported RDM (or BLM, or SCH or SMN) deal 5% damage via nuking or through providing some other tangible benefit? Nuking BLM/SCH/RDM/SMN are probably the only jobs you can stick into the 7th slot and completely ignore their existence for the rest of the run. They don't need any support and even with the gimpest ilevel gear should do more then 5% HP worth of damage.

[Demonjustin]

This is just people being idiots. The difference between 6 man and 7 man is 5% HP. Can you, as an unsupported RDM (or BLM, or SCH or SMN) deal 5% damage via nuking or through providing some other tangible benefit? Nuking BLM/SCH/RDM/SMN are probably the only jobs you can stick into the 7th slot and completely ignore their existence for the rest of the run. They don't need any support and even with the gimpest ilevel gear should do more then 5% HP worth of damage.The fact I can deal good DMG from the 7th slot is the only reason I've been in the 4 runs I have been, but the fact of the matter is still that people simply don't take the job normally. The amount of accepted jobs went from around 12 to around 6 in 1 update when it comes to old Delve and new Delve only has 5 so far as I know, SAM, RNG, PLD, BRD, COR. I understand that people can fill a 7th role like RDM it's just a matter of if people will let it, the sad truth is that most of the time the answer is no.

[detlef]

Looking for the "red lines" is easy, I'll give you that. But take into consideration the fact these bosses SPAM TP moves. What happens if your Stun timer is still down and Tojil uses Incinerating Lahar?

Game over.....

Checkmate.Thunderstorm Alacrity, use up all your charges, pop Tabula Rasa (you should have the Argute +2 legs or higher to get 3:30 TR), then use up all your charges from there. Hopefully you got Marches.

You can also bring /RUN to take down the aura so that Lahar is locked out. Nukes help too, and you'd be surprised how much you can contribute.

You can also bring more than one SCH.

Bosses always do 1 regular attack between TP moves, and that's your chance to Alacrity. The biggest danger is stunning a weak spell by accident. Also, you know the move is coming so there's no reason not to be ready.

Really, I know people from all systems who have successfully played SCH for us, either in Legion or in Delve. Depending on lag or your connection, you might not be able to chat log stun, but anybody can stun TP charging animation.

Remember, if we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

[radiationbots]

This is not a "design flaw", this is just how our society works. Everyone play/work with like minded people.
yeah, that's why none of the intelligent endgame players are subbed anymore

[Siviard]

Thunderstorm Alacrity, use up all your charges, pop Tabula Rasa (you should have the Argute +2 legs or higher to get 3:30 TR), then use up all your charges from there. Hopefully you got Marches.

You can also bring /RUN to take down the aura so that Lahar is locked out. Nukes help too, and you'd be surprised how much you can contribute.

You can also bring more than one SCH.

Bosses always do 1 regular attack between TP moves, and that's your chance to Alacrity. The biggest danger is stunning a weak spell by accident. Also, you know the move is coming so there's no reason not to be ready.

Really, I know people from all systems who have successfully played SCH for us, either in Legion or in Delve. Depending on lag or your connection, you might not be able to chat log stun, but anybody can stun TP charging animation.

Remember, if we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

You make it sound SOOOOOOOO easy. Why not transfer to Shiva and demonstrate for us? hehe

But again, everything you just said proves my point. Recent endgame content is so flawed that the only way to be able to successfully stun the TP moves and win is to come Scholar with specific gear sets. This leaves out BLM, RDM, etc. or anything that can sub job something with Stun. It HAS to be Scholar or GTFO, right?

Thank you, for proving my point yet again, sir.

[Draylo]

You make it sound SOOOOOOOO easy. Why not transfer to Shiva and demonstrate for us? hehe

But again, everything you just said proves my point. Recent endgame content is so flawed that the only way to be able to successfully stun the TP moves and win is to come Scholar with specific gear sets. This leaves out BLM, RDM, etc. or anything that can sub job something with Stun. It HAS to be Scholar or GTFO, right?

Thank you, for proving my point yet again, sir.

Except you are wrong, and you sound like a terrible player. With double march from a bard and a haste spell, you can stun on BLM or RDM etc. When I do Tojil on SCH, I have the BRD jump to my party and give double march and just make sure the WHM keeps me hasted. I use 0 strategems since my recast timer is up every time he does a WS. You are seriously in denial if you think this content is hard. Just face the facts, you aren't a good player and you want SE to nerf it so you can solo it with your trust NPC. Go play WoW or something and stop asking SE to nerf everything into the ground because you don't use your head to figure the content out.

[detlef]

You make it sound SOOOOOOOO easy. Why not transfer to Shiva and demonstrate for us? hehe

But again, everything you just said proves my point. Recent endgame content is so flawed that the only way to be able to successfully stun the TP moves and win is to come Scholar with specific gear sets. This leaves out BLM, RDM, etc. or anything that can sub job something with Stun. It HAS to be Scholar or GTFO, right?

Thank you, for proving my point yet again, sir.Have you tried stunning yourself?

[AppropriateName5786]

I remember a thread on bluegartr where people were naming the best stunners on their servers, and a few posts summed up the general reaction. You can find the thread yourself, but some of the comments were basically: "You shouldn't be doing shout-outs to stunners 'cause, you know, stunbotting isn't really a skill." If even the elitist bluegartr community equates SCH stunning to stunbotting, then I'm not the crazy one here.

It's unbelievable that three people in this thread have said that stunning on SCH without mods (i.e. cheating) is simple.

Clearly, its the rest of the 99.5% of the population that has it wrong, and there isn't some kind of list of SCHs on every server that no one will ever let stun again because they let Lahar/spells land for whatever reason. It absolutely goes without saying that every player has a perfect internet connection with 0 latency, combined with perfect reflexes. It's obviously very easy to see when mega bosses are preparing TP moves because it's not like there are flashy WS animations and spells going off all the time that obscure it. Undoubtedly, getting Vanir Cotehardie or Hedera Cotehardie and all the other fastcast gear in the game to minimize stun recast is a walk in the park.

[Byrth]

If Delve were a lag-free environment, stunning would be simple. The bad moves have long charge times and are not remotely difficult to stun. Unfortunately, SE has overstretched their "layer system" servers and Delve is one of the laggiest, packet-dropping-ist, horrible zones in the game. However, botting isn't popular because it fixes any problems. It is popular because it defers responsibility for failure from the SCH to SE or your ISP.


I ran a Legion linkshell that relied on the Stun method and was one of our Scholars. I carried that job through to Tojil and have hand-stunned many Tojil runs. It's not impossible and it's not even difficult. If you are having trouble with your reaction time, try reading this and seeing what you could possibly change:
http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/lab/110/reaction.htm#Other%20Factors

[Camate]

Greetings,

I'd like to share a bit of additional information closely related to the topic at hand.

There have been suggestions in the past asking for a system that would allow players to retry content if their attempt was unsuccessful. The development team had been looking into this; however, due to the following reasons the plan was pushed back.


Party recruitment would still be strict even if there was a retry option
This mainly has to do with pick-up groups, but even if there was a possibility to retry content, the development team feels that there would essentially be no changes in the way players create recruitment barriers.


Battlefield congestion
There is a concern that players will abuse this feature for grieving or other forms of harassment by occupying a battlefield for long periods of time.


In addition to the above reasons, adding a system like this would require very large-scale changes to just about every battlefield in the game. Considering the effect gained through this change and the speed in which it can be addressed, we feel that it would be more effective to focus on reducing costs associated with entering battlefields while we keep an eye on congestion.

[Raydeus]

I'm going to have to disagree with your assertion that the problem is a community issue and not a gameplay/design issue.

Here's why.

I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit. However, they did absolutely nothing to the NMs themselves, especially the Mega Bosses. The Mega Bosses still SPAM TP moves and those moves still have the power to destroy a full 18-person alliance. IMHO, that is a serious design flaw. Serious enough to the point that in order to defeat those Mega Bosses, only a select few jobs with very top-of-the-line gear (and 3rd party programs) have a shot at winning. Anything else involving a combination of different jobs? Complete and utter failure 100% of the time. Again, that is a very serious design flaw. NOT a Community problem.

Lets also not forget the very serious problem that is plaguing the 3 pet jobs (BST, SMN, PUP) despite the fact the pet job community has been asking, begging, and pleading for fixes, for ANYTHING that will help their job become wanted in any endgame content, have all fallen on deaf ears. Again, that is a design flaw, which then leads to the community issue.

I'm sorry, but people trying to burn fights and getting owned because they feed the mob endless TP without a strategy is nothing new. It has happened since the beginning of the game and it is a usually a player problem.

(Yes, there are fights that are broken at launch, but they are usually very specific cases that get patched fast most of the times.)

But anyway, since I don't want to post a wall of text the only thing I'll say is that the dev team should post a few videos of every fight about a month after their release where they show a few different party setups beating the fight and without overgearing. So players see that it is actually possible to do it and try to figure things out for their particular groups instead of complaining about it.

This of course is not meant to solve job/gear elitism, but instead to simply show to all the other players that overgearing and job discrimination is not the only way of doing things.

[Siviard]

On SCH, no. I don't have a "Stun Set" or high end gear for it. And anyone I've tried to take with a decently geared SCH or RDM one way or another always seem to have Stun timer down when Lahar goes off, or they Stun Lahar only to have Lahar go off again and they have no way of stunning it.

And @ Draylo you're a known troll so I don't take anything you say seriously at all. You seem to enjoy telling others they suck. Perhaps you're making up for IRL failings of your own? If I were you I'd seek counseling.

@ AppropriateName - I recall also seeing that post on BlueGartr you're referring to. There were also posts in the main Delve information thread on BG that showed screenshots of people openly using Stun Bots.

@ Byrth - I'll take a look at that site when I get a moment. Thank you for at least trying to help.

[Siviard]

Go play WoW or something and stop asking SE to nerf everything into the ground because you don't use your head to figure the content out.

I'm using my head. I'm just not using a bot.

[detlef]

On SCH, no. I don't have a "Stun Set" or high end gear for it. And anyone I've tried to take with a decently geared SCH or RDM one way or another always seem to have Stun timer down when Lahar goes off, or they Stun Lahar only to have Lahar go off again and they have no way of stunning it.

And @ Draylo you're a known troll so I don't take anything you say seriously at all. You seem to enjoy telling others they suck. Perhaps you're making up for IRL failings of your own? If I were you I'd seek counseling.

@ AppropriateName - I recall also seeing that post on BlueGartr you're referring to. There were also posts in the main Delve information thread on BG that showed screenshots of people openly using Stun Bots.

@ Byrth - I'll take a look at that site when I get a moment. Thank you for at least trying to help.This is my last post on the topic since it is quite a derail. Check out this thread, it'll give you an idea about what kind of gear you need:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/32145/a-scholars-education/

Pay close attention to the discussion on recasts, and keep in mind that SCH should be getting Haste and Marches. The key pieces of gear are Apamajas II and relic feet. Also, if you bring two SCH you really shouldn't have any issues at all because they can cover for each other. For most pickup groups I'd recommend this because you can run out of strats if you solo stun depending on the quality of your group. Like anything, it takes practice.

Siviard and AppropriateName, I suggest you actually try things out yourself before stating that something is impossible to do without botting. Or at least read up on it a little more.

[Rwolf]

Part of party barriers is how some systems are in place. The fact you have to even stun so predominantly in Delve when the skill itself was meant as a support relief is an issue to me. Same with needing an outside party or swapping parties for buffs. They are tactics that I personally don't deem part of the game, but a work around for bad content. I think there's a way to make content difficult and also enticing for alliances without relying on oddball strategies to win.

I'm sure there are people who like stunlocking NMs and party swapping on buff jobs as a tactic. I'd rather they just remove those without nerfing anyone or content. Some of those moves are honestly no different than full armor Encumbrence and they fixed that recently on Ra'Kaznar Skirmish by making it just lock current armor in. I think it's a great compromise. It doesn't become this catastrophic TP move where you likely can't recover, but it is still very debilitating on time management in a timed event. I think that type of mentality should be applied to Delve.

I love that Delve requires teamwork, has tactical difficulty and tricks of the bosses to learn. This coming from someone who has yet to win a single Delve. However, I think it's lame that tactics for endgame content result in stunlocking, swapping parties for buffs, etc. It's part of the game design flaw which makes the community decide who to bring to events. I'm sure for players who have won againist such odds, it is a great accomplishment, and I agree it is so a sincere congratulations to all who are able to. But at the same time, why can't content be challenging but not require different tactics?

A huge part of the reason why jobs are so limited in end-game is the fact that current tactics (really workarounds a silly system) are only easily capable by a handful of jobs. The development team shouldn't punish people for creating strategies but foster alternative ones.

Make high level content like Delve Bosses and Ark Angels difficult in a more engaging way. I'd be completely fine with Lahar if WHM DNC SCH or other healing/support jobs could remove temporary 1 minute weakness.
Create alternative goals. All goals shouldn't be just relying on kill X in X amount of time. Create alternative ways for victory and you create new possibilities for tactics that include other jobs.
Boost hybrid/pet jobs that have a support function to be more durable than full damage. Part of the reason the development team does not want to boost the attack power of jobs that have support functions is because of their utility. Unfortunately that utility does not translate in high level battlefields. Make jobs that have the capability of doing more than just pure damage, not stronger in attack but their utility to matter more. It makes more sense that for example a Puppetmaster, Dragoon, Red Mage, Ninja, Blue Mage, Dancer, etc. is more durable than a Monk or Ranger. Their sacrifice in raw power should be equally made up in the ability to survive in current content. If not by boosting their ability personally, then reducing the intensity in which method through which content is made.

I am sure there are players who would disagree because they have no qualms with winning in the current system. However from a big picture, it makes more sense to make content that is not only more easily accessible to more players, but more importantly more jobs. I think there is a way to satisfy both the players who enjoy the difficulty of having a specific set of jobs and narrow tactics, and also the broad spectrum.

Varying difficulty was the best idea in years, in conception, that is. The best way to satisfy all without compromising the integrity of difficulty is to not make content harder based on your level versus the target's level. But to expand that into enemy intelligence and abilities. And tackling extremely hard AI such as current content which restricts to very narrow forms of tactics should simply increase the rewards. To allow players who accomplish this a sense of achievement without having to dramatically change game balance.

One thing that is easy to forget in a game, is that it is just a game. A game's primary job should be to entertain through varying methods of accomplishment.

[Calintzpso]

Greetings,

I'd like to share a bit of additional information closely related to the topic at hand.

There have been suggestions in the past asking for a system that would allow players to retry content if their attempt was unsuccessful. The development team had been looking into this; however, due to the following reasons the plan was pushed back.



Party recruitment would still be strict even if there was a retry option
This mainly has to do with pick-up groups, but even if there was a possibility to retry content, the development team feels that there would essentially be no changes in the way players create recruitment barriers.
Battlefield congestion
There is a concern that players will abuse this feature for grieving or other forms of harassment by occupying a battlefield for long periods of time.



In addition to the above reasons, adding a system like this would require very large-scale changes to just about every battlefield in the game. Considering the effect gained through this change and the speed in which it can be addressed, we feel that it would be more effective to focus on reducing costs associated with entering battlefields while we keep an eye on congestion.

How about if the group fails, they are locked out of the fight attempted in question for 1 vana day? roughly 56mins or less depending on when they entered/lost the fight to rethink their strategies, And let them keep their Orb/KI that was used to enter/attempt the battle.

Make it pretty, Slap a Status icon on it too and call it something catchy like

Marshalling or Determination: Your valiant attempts in battle have not gone unfettered, use this time to accumulate your knowledge and experiences in battle to try again.

[AppropriateName5786]

Siviard and AppropriateName, I suggest you actually try things out yourself before stating that something is impossible to do without botting. Or at least read up on it a little more.

Posting about this topic does not automatically mean that I, or anyone else, am directly affected by it. I stunned Apademak a LOT back when my friends and I were working on our Empyrean weapons, but I no longer play my SCH that way because I relocated to another country and my latency is an insurmountable barrier. That is, in my situation, not being able to stun has nothing to do with skill.

The reason I posted and felt strongly about this (and it is very much related to the OP's topic, points 2 and 3) is because the way stun SCH is required for Delve I bosses is bad content design and effectively cuts off a majority of the playerbase. I have no stake in this as I can still get into Delve runs, but it would be great if things were different because this issue affects a lot of players. If you could show that webpage you linked (whatever it's about) to every ambitious SCH left in the game, it could be useful, but suggesting it for me is just barking up the wrong tree. I'm not the one stunning or missing stuns.

[detlef]

Posting about this topic does not automatically mean that I, or anyone else, am directly affected by it. I stunned Apademak a LOT back when my friends and I were working on our Empyrean weapons, but I no longer play my SCH that way because I relocated to another country and my latency is an insurmountable barrier. That is, in my situation, not being able to stun has nothing to do with skill.Well I'm sorry to hear that. Still, that doesn't mean you need a bot to stun. Well maybe YOU do. I just wanted to refute your statement that it's generally impossible to stun without a bot. Basically you got the idea from somewhere that the only possible way to stun competently is with a bot and that is simply untrue. When I stun I don't even change my gear. I type /ma stun <t>, watch the mob, and hit enter when I see it charging.


The reason I posted and felt strongly about this (and it is very much related to the OP's topic, points 2 and 3) is because the way stun SCH is required for Delve I bosses is bad content design and effectively cuts off a majority of the playerbase. I have no stake in this as I can still get into Delve runs, but it would be great if things were different because this issue affects a lot of players. If you could show that webpage you linked (whatever it's about) to every ambitious SCH left in the game, it could be useful, but suggesting it for me is just barking up the wrong tree. I'm not the one stunning or missing stuns.Well, you just need to consider some things then. Your SCHs need more practice. They simply need to get better. If recast is an issue than gear is and buffs is the problem. If seeing the TP moves is an issue, and stunning the charge animation is not possible, you can still fudge it because the attack pattern is easy to pick up. The reason I posted that link is to show what kind of recasts players have and/or are aspiring for. If you read it, it would help to pinpoint your stunners' issues. If Lahar is such an issue have you considered a strategy that involves removing the aura?

Whether strategies should be so reliant on stuns is a completely separate issue. I think ideally monster behavior should be such that players are either able to manipulate behavior in some strategic way, or we should be able to adjust and respond to the monster without having to worry about dying instantly. That's a fine argument, and I agree.

[Calatilla]

Are you talking specifically about Tojil or any NM in delve? Tojil himself is very predictable and easy to stun as you said, Tute and Kurma? not so much. Mist and Tremor seem almost near instant to me, even if I get a stun off it doesn't stop them from using it. An LS SCH solo stuns in our lowman runs and never misses either of those moves, even before they appear in my chat log. But we both know why that is.

[detlef]

Are you talking specifically about Tojil or any NM in delve? Tojil himself is very predictable and easy to stun as you said, Tute and Kurma? not so much. Mist and Tremor seem almost near instant to me, even if I get a stun off it doesn't stop them from using it. An LS SCH solo stuns in our lowman runs and never misses either of those moves, even before they appear in my chat log. But we both know why that is.I'm referring specifically to Tojil, Dakuwaqa, and Muyingwa. I'm glad to see that you agree on that.

As you say, the lower tier NMs do not work the same way and are much more reactionary. Calcifying mist is slow enough to be chatlog stunned, although I don't get it every time. With Kurma, the moves are too fast for me and I just free stun or stun after Tremor. I wouldn't expect any legitimate stunner to have a perfect record with these NMs.

[Afania]

On SCH, no. I don't have a "Stun Set" or high end gear for it. And anyone I've tried to take with a decently geared SCH or RDM one way or another always seem to have Stun timer down when Lahar goes off, or they Stun Lahar only to have Lahar go off again and they have no way of stunning it.

And @ Draylo you're a known troll so I don't take anything you say seriously at all. You seem to enjoy telling others they suck. Perhaps you're making up for IRL failings of your own? If I were you I'd seek counseling.

@ AppropriateName - I recall also seeing that post on BlueGartr you're referring to. There were also posts in the main Delve information thread on BG that showed screenshots of people openly using Stun Bots.

@ Byrth - I'll take a look at that site when I get a moment. Thank you for at least trying to help.

So you complained that certain job needs certain gear set to win, or else whoever call you "suck in a video game" must fail irl.

I fail to see the logic nor connection between telling others you can do better in a video game and fail irl. It's just a video game, if others think you suck at video game because you can't beat a content they can beat, just ignore them. If what they said it's truth, it's just video game and it doesn't matter, it's not like it's the end of your life if you suck at a video game. If what they said is false, why do you care?

But don't try to make yourself feel better by calling someone you don't know fail irl. Do you know him irl?

[Demonjustin]

So you complained that certain job needs certain gear set to win, or else whoever call you "suck in a video game" must fail irl.Ignoring the fact I can't exactly understand your sentence since it's poorly phrased I'm going to go with my best interpretation of it.


@ Draylo you're a known troll so I don't take anything you say seriously at all. You seem to enjoy telling others they suck. Perhaps you're making up for IRL failings of your own? If I were you I'd seek counseling.This seems directed at how Draylo acts on the forums generally, not simply in this one post, so to say it's only because of something to do with specific gear sets is foolish. I generally disregard Draylo as well because his replies are often the inflammatory 'go play WoW' type.


It's just a video game, if others think you suck at video game because you can't beat a content they can beat, just ignore them. If what they said it's truth, it's just video game and it doesn't matter, it's not like it's the end of your life if you suck at a video game. If what they said is false, why do you care?

But don't try to make yourself feel better by calling someone you don't know fail irl. Do you know him irl?Perhaps it should be put differently, Draylo acts like a jack*** a lot of the time by saying people suck without offering much of any constructive criticism. Would you rather it put that way? Sounds less nice to me, but the amount of condesenture coupled with the fact that he constantly tells people to just go play WoW simply makes it the way he comes across. Calling him a jack*** really doesn't mesh well with the rules of the forums and is why this post probably is going to get deleted in the end as well as a possible temp ban for me like I used to get for speaking out. In the end it's about the most accurate way to say what's being said without beating around the bush and being criticized for it I guess.

[Afania]

Ignoring the fact I can't exactly understand your sentence since it's poorly phrased I'm going to go with my best interpretation of it.

This seems directed at how Draylo acts on the forums generally, not simply in this one post, so to say it's only because of something to do with specific gear sets is foolish. I generally disregard Draylo as well because his replies are often the inflammatory 'go play WoW' type.

Perhaps it should be put differently, Draylo acts like a jack*** a lot of the time by saying people suck without offering much of any constructive criticism. Would you rather it put that way? Sounds less nice to me, but the amount of condesenture coupled with the fact that he constantly tells people to just go play WoW simply makes it the way he comes across. Calling him a jack*** really doesn't mesh well with the rules of the forums and is why this post probably is going to get deleted in the end as well as a possible temp ban for me like I used to get for speaking out. In the end it's about the most accurate way to say what's being said without beating around the bush and being criticized for it I guess.

Yeah, Draylo said "you're wrong and you sound like a terrible player", and calling him fail irl is even worse than what Draylo said, that's my point.

From what I've seen this is what happened:

Siviard:

I don't have a "stun set", it's impossible to stun without bot.

Draylo:

You're wrong and you sound like a terrible player. (Proceed to explain some tips on how to do things properly)

Siviard:

You should go seek counseling because you fail irl and make up with calling others suck.

Again, I fail to see how Siviard got the conclusion that Draylo failed irl, just because he said "suck less". Draylo said "suck less" because Siviard hinted whoever can stun properly botted when he doesn't bother to try to get a proper set nor spend some time to do the research.

Most of the people who got win, spent their time to build a proper set, read information on the internet, they don't just sit there and expect a win just pop out of nowhere without actually spending time to do research.

How would you feel, if after all the research and practice, only got the "this is impossible, only botter can win" comment?

There are many times I can't win a content, or had hard time winning it. Do you think I just pop on the forum and go "This is impossible, whoever got win are botters". No, I spend the time to do research, read forum, and ask questions in a polite attitude. I rarely, rarely got "suck less" reply when I ask questions in a polite attitude. And if I get such reply, I just ignore them. I don't give a damn about how other strangers on the internet think about my video game play ability.

To sum up: Draylo isn't the only one with jack ass attitude here and it's obvious. I'm not a Draylo fan or anything, I don't defend for Draylo because I like him. I just point out the obvious.

[Siviard]

@ Afania - I am not a SCH main, nor do I do Delve on SCH. But anyone that I bring along for a Tojil attempt always seems to miss Lahar for whatever reason despite the fact they have the "proper gear", capped magic skills, etc. So the whole "just cast Haste and Double Marches" seems to be irrelevant anyway, as Tojil spams TP moves enough to the point Lahar gets missed.

The only successful runs I've been on, the SCH or whoever was stunning was using a bot.

[Calatilla]

How many SCH`s did you have? Was it lowman? In an 18 man alliance 2 SCH's can stun everything tojil tries to do, but its usually best to just ignore spells. He`s predictable in his tp moves, he`ll always do 1 normal attack then a TP move/spell. If your SCH`s are missing Lahar because their timers are always down then they need to be more selective with their stunning.

In a lowman run 1 SCH can stun Lahar without needing anything but gear, haste and marches. And be alert for Lahar. You can stun Lahar only and ignore everything else he does and he won't kill you if your whm isn't asleep.

[Afania]

@ Afania - I am not a SCH main, nor do I do Delve on SCH. But anyone that I bring along for a Tojil attempt always seems to miss Lahar for whatever reason despite the fact they have the "proper gear", capped magic skills, etc. So the whole "just cast Haste and Double Marches" seems to be irrelevant anyway, as Tojil spams TP moves enough to the point Lahar gets missed.

The only successful runs I've been on, the SCH or whoever was stunning was using a bot.


I agree that some successful SCH uses bot, but not all, I know a few that doesn't. Especially JP SCH, they rarely bot for this(they don't suffer from lag as much as NA/EU). Just because you happened to pt with 1 SCH that stun with bot, doesn't mean everyone do the same.

Tojil is also pretty much the only endgame content that really needs good stunning. Maybe shark too. Every other zone you don't need perfect stun like Tojil.

[Draylo]

I'm using my head. I'm just not using a bot.

Just had to quote this and reply. The 7 likes are hilarious, are people seriously this bad? It doesn't take a bot to beat Tojil man. Lahar can get off and you can still win, you need to swap into -DT sets and be on top of heals. Also the linked thread you were sent seems like a joke, you are just bad. Yeah I'll come off like a whatever you want to call me, really sick of terrible players like you dragging this game down into the braindead WoW realm just so you can complete it.

[Draylo]

@ Afania - I am not a SCH main, nor do I do Delve on SCH. But anyone that I bring along for a Tojil attempt always seems to miss Lahar for whatever reason despite the fact they have the "proper gear", capped magic skills, etc. So the whole "just cast Haste and Double Marches" seems to be irrelevant anyway, as Tojil spams TP moves enough to the point Lahar gets missed.

The only successful runs I've been on, the SCH or whoever was stunning was using a bot.

If they can stun one move, they can stun Lahar. It isn't a super magical ws that gets through every time, you were in fail PUGs, which isn't abnormal.

[Afania]

Just had to quote this and reply. The 7 likes are hilarious, are people seriously this bad? It doesn't take a bot to beat Tojil man. Lahar can get off and you can still win, you need to swap into -DT sets and be on top of heals. Also the linked thread you were sent seems like a joke, you are just bad. Yeah I'll come off like a whatever you want to call me, really sick of terrible players like you dragging this game down into the braindead WoW realm just so you can complete it.

Liked and way to go for Draylo to stand up and speak the truth. OF needs more people like you to speak honest opinion, instead of having certain group of player that always act as if they're the majority and only their opinion matters.

[Camate]

Greetings,

We’ve been seeing comments that a lot of shouts made in-game for certain content are mainly looking to recruit monks, and there have been requests to make it so other damage dealing jobs can compete with monk.

During the recent Freshly Picked Vana’diel, Matsui mentioned that the stats for just about every weapon skill would be revamped in the June version update.

In addition to this, we’ll also be making adjustments to the calculations for how TP is gained, and with this, the aspect where there would be advantages and disadvantages depending on the value of a weapon’s delay will be lessened.

With these adjustments, the gap between the damage over time for each damage dealing job will become smaller.

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.

[Mefuki]

I sincerely hope this means a wider array of possible tactics and counters. You mentioned making some things strong to "breath attacks" but we still don't have anything that's WEAK to breath spells. Again, this is a matter of making all spells and abilities have their use and, right now, breath spells don't.

[Gannon]

I don't think you guys seem to get why MNK is always sought out for events....

[Maledict]

I don't think you guys seem to get why MNK is always sought out for events....

Then I would suggest you explain at length and in-depth. I'd certainly like to see a well-written explanation on this forum myself, just for posterity.

If not you, then perhaps Byrth would be the best suited...

[Donquichot]

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.

Where does this leave Puppetmaster? Our damage capabilities arent at MNK levels and our hand-to-hand attacks are being punished like this. This change is shortsighted and on High level content not a solution. Big reason MNK is popular is their enormous HP pool combined with their defensive capabilities. Other DD are less welcome to these events due to the almost oneshot nature of certain enemy moves. It feels like the development team isntt watching how people play this game.

Also will the June weaponskill changes also include Automaton weaponskills? Current damage on these is still stuck in pre-ilvl times. The damage output is way too low.

[Genoxd]

Greetings,

We’ve been seeing comments that a lot of shouts made in-game for certain content are mainly looking to recruit monks, and there have been requests to make it so other damage dealing jobs can compete with monk.

During the recent Freshly Picked Vana’diel, Matsui mentioned that the stats for just about every weapon skill would be revamped in the June version update.

In addition to this, we’ll also be making adjustments to the calculations for how TP is gained, and with this, the aspect where there would be advantages and disadvantages depending on the value of a weapon’s delay will be lessened.

With these adjustments, the gap between the damage over time for each damage dealing job will become smaller.

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.

What about Bloodpacts? Melee DDs can do a weapon skill for equal or more damage than my BPs every 3-10 seconds and they don't have to use MP to do it.
Can we get a change to avatars, and all pets while you're at it?

[Raydeus]

And (yet again) I just want the removal of the minimum player requirements for mission and quest fights and Campaign ops. orz

[Darwena]

Not sure the DD aspect of MNK Is why they are in demand but more the HUGE HP POOL they have. Lot of ppl mention this but seem dev's think it's the DD part... That sad...

[Archi]

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.

If it's possible make the enemies have random resistance, so they cannot planning to bring certain job only and make the opportunity to bring more dps (including black mage) into high lvl content, so they just not skip 1-3 boss that have resist hand to hand / formless strike and still bring mnk party for other NM

[predatory]

I don't think you guys seem to get why MNK is always sought out for events....

yeah we do

[Lithera]

He meant the devs pred. Lol

[Babekeke]

It's really not just MNK that is seeing the love right now, but there are only a few.

MNK WHM BRD COR RNG THF (but only a very well-geared one and generally Mandau only) SCH BLM and PLD are just about the only jobs that you'll ever see anyone shouting for on current events.

9/22, not bad going, SE!

[AppropriateName5786]

We’ve been seeing comments that a lot of shouts made in-game for certain content are mainly looking to recruit monks, and there have been requests to make it so other damage dealing jobs can compete with monk.

The dev team must be completely blind if they somehow missed the complaints about RNG as well. And on the topic of job balance, WHM is the only viable healer and BRD is the only crucial buffer. Fix all of this, and do not take your time.


With these adjustments, the gap between the damage over time for each damage dealing job will become smaller.

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.

If by "smaller gap" you mean jobs like NIN and BLU will now deal 75% of a MNK/RNG's damage as opposed to 50%, then you might as well not bother. You don't understand your end-game playerbase at all.

As for nukers, unless each tier V nuke does 20k damage and doesn't immediately put you at the top of the enmity list, no one will ever invite nukers to DD in serious content. Their damage cannot hold a candle to super-buffed melee damage. This is in conjunction with the fact that melee DD with no concept of enmity control can tank a bit with PDT gear, shadows, or high HP, but a mage that somehow pulls hate will die. Furthermore, even a very geared and "refreshed" BLM/GEO/RDM/SCH constantly throwing tier IV-V nukes will run out of MP long before a melee DD runs out of TP (i.e. never). Another is the problem of Magic Acc. There is currently not enough M.Acc gear in the game to let nukers land nukes in D/VD content. If SE implements enough Mag.Acc gear, there is still the problem of not having sufficient MAB on anything except your staff/club. GEO/COR/SMN have M.Acc buffs, but we all know their buffs are nothing compared to BRD, so the status quo will not change for small group content.

There are so many problems with nukers atm that SE cannot possibly expect to solve anything by making a few enemies weak to magic. If this change does go through and is not totally botched, at best a single nuker will be brought to counter an NM in much the same way a THF was brought for the singular purpose of building TH every minute when SA was up. It will be the sh*ttiest gameplay ever, perhaps even worse than not getting invited at all.

[Olor]

I sincerely hope this means a wider array of possible tactics and counters. You mentioned making some things strong to "breath attacks" but we still don't have anything that's WEAK to breath spells. Again, this is a matter of making all spells and abilities have their use and, right now, breath spells don't.

Yeah, what the heck, breath attacks are useless ATM. How about you make breath attacks useful before you nerf them? The solution to the MNK problem is to BUFF other jobs, not nerf stuff. If you nerf hand to hand damage then PUP will be even worse off...

[Ophannus]

It's easier to reduce the capabilities of one job than to buff the capabilities of 20 other jobs. Not only is it more efficient, cost effective, faster, more intuitive to just weaken one job, it also requires less testing. Furthermore, if you buff 20 other jobs you vastly increase the probability of something unbeknownst slip through the cracks and now the playerbase jumps onto the next overpowered melee.
When you buff more than 1 job at a time, it takes months for players to recognize the new damage hierarchy and more time still for the devs to catch on. So lets say they buff WAR DRK THF BLU DNC for more damage in a single patch. People play with them and after a few weeks realize that now DNC and BLU are OP when they spam some WS or JA or spell, then it'll take for SE to catch on and nerf those jobs.

It's easier to nerf than to play catch up for 20 other jobs especially because by buffing other jobs you create a whole new host of potential problems and exploits.

[Afania]

Then I would suggest you explain at length and in-depth. I'd certainly like to see a well-written explanation on this forum myself, just for posterity.

If not you, then perhaps Byrth would be the best suited...

I'm no Byrth but I can kinda tell why MNK is popular.

Current content already require different dmg type, for example: Piercing phrase/slashing phrase on Tojil, Wopket weakness etc. The reason why everyone /shout for MNK, is more than just DD issue.

1. MNK is the easiest DD job to gear, easiest DD job to play. It is much easier to play MNK close to dmg ceiling. The JA is easy, the weapons are not hard to obtain. Unlike jobs like WAR DRG you pretty much need a mythic to catch up.

Once there's one person /shouting for a MNK in skirmish, then he sent /tell and ask me to join his pt. I have no MNK, so I asked him why he'd want me to join when he wanted a MNK, he replied "Because MNK is the best to /shout for gimpy"

When you /shout, you can't expect to get a elite DD, so MNK is the best to /shout for.

2. High HP. Again, makes thing easier for PUG. You don't really NEED pro DT- set or pro WHM if you just have higher HP than everyone else.

3. Formless: So even if there's some sort of physical dmg reduction or needing magic dmg, MNK can still get through it.

Due to the above reason, even if the dev wants to make the content requiring different type of dmg, MNK is still the way to go. Further more, 90% of the player that wants to play DD more or less already have a geared MNK but not geared other DD. By making the content needing other type of DD, it actually makes things harder....now I need a BLM for X event? Where can I find a BLM?

[Rwolf]

I think this is a horrible way to try and address closing the gap on what jobs are invited. The issue is too complex to be handing down blanket nerfs on hand-to-hand damage, hurting Puppetmaster even further, and restricting certain types of attacks (so certain jobs are invited) to certain fights. Monk and Rangers are generally invited because they have high durability (Monk through MAX HP and Ranger through being out of range and enmity transfer) and can deal good damage, better than others in some instances.

The problem doesn't lie on these jobs. It lies on this stack of horrible issues that befalls the game. How horrible area of effect attacks are currently and defense against them for players and pets, the horrible amount of magic evasion on most of the new content, magic accuracy of additional effects, the effects and use of enfeebling magic, enmity system, list goes on and on.

I'm starting to see a trend of not fixing things, but just making new stuff on top of it to try to balance it. Don't fix jugs, just add new HQ ones. Don't fix Blue Magic, just add new ones. Don't fix pet damage/defense/attacks, just add new gear/food. Don't fix magic accuracy, add job points and gear with magic accuracy. List goes on and on. Which is a horrible way to fix things, it just makes the issue more complicated with adding elements to the game and so far it's not fixing anything. It's just overly cautiously inching forward as if it will be catastrophic to the game if suddenly other jobs and their abilities are viable.

[Babekeke]

As for nukers, unless each tier V nuke does 20k damage and doesn't immediately put you at the top of the enmity list, no one will ever invite nukers to DD in serious content.

You obviously haven't seen this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO-eeLCas4I)

[detlef]

You obviously haven't seen this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO-eeLCas4I)Somebody complains about magic damage enmity generation and you respond by demonstrating that SCH can be strong in a situation where enmity is meaningless?

[Olor]

It's easier to reduce the capabilities of one job than to buff the capabilities of 20 other jobs. Not only is it more efficient, cost effective, faster, more intuitive to just weaken one job, it also requires less testing. Furthermore, if you buff 20 other jobs you vastly increase the probability of something unbeknownst slip through the cracks and now the playerbase jumps onto the next overpowered melee.
When you buff more than 1 job at a time, it takes months for players to recognize the new damage hierarchy and more time still for the devs to catch on. So lets say they buff WAR DRK THF BLU DNC for more damage in a single patch. People play with them and after a few weeks realize that now DNC and BLU are OP when they spam some WS or JA or spell, then it'll take for SE to catch on and nerf those jobs.

It's easier to nerf than to play catch up for 20 other jobs especially because by buffing other jobs you create a whole new host of potential problems and exploits.

OH GAWD! I SEE! BUFFING CRUMMY JOBS MIGHT MAKE THEM POPULAR!

Derp! Of course the solution is to ignore the problems of crappy jobs and do a derpy nerf of monk that will probably only really hurt PUP! OTHERWISE CATASTROPHE, UNPOPULAR JOBS MIGHT BE POWERFUL!

[Mitruya]

Please don't hurt PUP with this!

[Tennotsukai]

I want to agree with the majority of everyone and ask that you guys (the devs) not hurt Pup through these adjustments. Also, what do you guys have against breath damage? Poor Drg's and Blu's....

[Babekeke]

Somebody complains about magic damage enmity generation and you respond by demonstrating that SCH can be strong in a situation where enmity is meaningless?

Enmity is irrelevant if everyone in your pt is a nuker.

/sigh

[Babekeke]

OH GAWD! I SEE! BUFFING CRUMMY JOBS MIGHT MAKE THEM POPULAR!

Derp! Of course the solution is to ignore the problems of crappy jobs and do a derpy nerf of monk that will probably only really hurt PUP! OTHERWISE CATASTROPHE, UNPOPULAR JOBS MIGHT BE POWERFUL!

Of course it is. It's always been the theme with SE, if you remember.

DRG was too powrful: nerf TP gain from Penta Thrust.

RNG was too powerful: Nerf Ranged Attacks.

Footwork was too powerful: Nerf it so noone ever uses it.

BLM was too powerful: Release ToAU where almost all mobs had massive MDB or -MDT or reflect....

BST was too powerful (in dynamis/salvage): Nerf Pet TH.

There's more, I'm sure, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Marada]

Greetings,

We’ve been seeing comments that a lot of shouts made in-game for certain content are mainly looking to recruit monks, and there have been requests to make it so other damage dealing jobs can compete with monk.

During the recent Freshly Picked Vana’diel, Matsui mentioned that the stats for just about every weapon skill would be revamped in the June version update.

In addition to this, we’ll also be making adjustments to the calculations for how TP is gained, and with this, the aspect where there would be advantages and disadvantages depending on the value of a weapon’s delay will be lessened.

With these adjustments, the gap between the damage over time for each damage dealing job will become smaller.

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.


So what part of this helps out the MNK's younger brother, the PUP?

[Afania]

I think the best way to lower the gap between DD is give more HP to other DDs, like what they did to races. Honestly MNK is good DD but it's not THAT good if you know how to gear/play other DD job properly. But ppl gonna start drama about your HP pool if you're not a MNK, even if you can parse high.

[predatory]

Yeah, what the heck, breath attacks are useless ATM. How about you make breath attacks useful before you nerf them? The solution to the MNK problem is to BUFF other jobs, not nerf stuff. If you nerf hand to hand damage then PUP will be even worse off...

I've always hated nerfs, but they seem to be SEs answer to all gripes about a job, well hell instead of buffing the other jobs let's just nerf this one so they can all be weak as hell. I have an idea SE, buff the other jobs instead of nerfing the strong ones, why continously make players weaker, when they work their asses off to be as strong as they can? Your logic is so confusing to me. This game is supposed to be about teamwork, so take the time and make the whole team strong rather thank making everyone too weak.

[Marada]

How about foloowing through on something which was brought up two years ago .. make the level 95 limit break soloable?

Still stuck at 95 because I don't have the gil to pay what people demand to 'help' and I'm damend if I'm standing in Jeuno for months shouting. Make it possible for me to get past 95 and I'll re-sub.


I'd be glad to help you if you were on my server. I don't understand why people require you to pay for such things like that, then again I'm so far behind in gear and even trying to get my mythic that I don't have anything decent on my character. But I'm always willing to help with thing when people need it.

[Ataraxia]

Greetings,

We’ve been seeing comments that a lot of shouts made in-game for certain content are mainly looking to recruit monks, and there have been requests to make it so other damage dealing jobs can compete with monk.

During the recent Freshly Picked Vana’diel, Matsui mentioned that the stats for just about every weapon skill would be revamped in the June version update.

In addition to this, we’ll also be making adjustments to the calculations for how TP is gained, and with this, the aspect where there would be advantages and disadvantages depending on the value of a weapon’s delay will be lessened.

With these adjustments, the gap between the damage over time for each damage dealing job will become smaller.

Also, we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes), as well as enemies where magic attacks are efficient, in order to have more variety of damage dealing jobs. We’ll continue to make these type of adjustments moving forward.

Ok I understand some job like monk won't get invited because as Camate said " we’ve set enemies for certain content to be strong against hand-to-hand attacks, breath attacks (including attacks coming from Formless Strikes)? You might as well make it so Monk can't enter that battle field instead of doing that. If anyone decide to do a ranger Set on Delve boss Wopket you will lose 100% of the time. I have a question for Camate? Does this mean that Dnc, Thf, Dragoon aren't allow to do Delve Boss Wopket because it seems that NM have a strong resist to piercing damage "piercing damage = Rng, Thf, Dnc, Drg" Unless I'm wrong? I don't see why Thf, Dnc, and Drg have to suffer in damage when ranger and monk get all the popular invite. :/

[Demonjustin]

Making damage types or certain weapon types the target for adjustment is just flat out a stupid and bad idea. There's no reason we should even be talking about this. Anyone who plays this game should by now have figured out the issue here, it's the jobs, AoEs, and Enmity systems. The jobs aren't balanced well enough, this is why MNK is the only DD taken, it has more HP & just as much if not more than the DMG of any other DD, if you nerf Blunt you hurt PUP too, another job who's on the bad side of this whole deal. AoEs are overpowered, often causing too many debuffs/DMG and enough of a pain in the ass that you simply don't want to deal with it and instead opt to use jobs like RNG who can stand out of range and still do their job. Enmity is broken when it comes to PLDs holding hate and at the same time DDs take hate too easily, there's a reason jobs like RNG are taken so often besides their ability to avoid DMG, primarily that RNG need never fear taking hate. Rather than addressing the jobs and how mobs are designed it seems as though they plan to just add resistant mobs which will change nothing in the end rather than simply fixing broken jobs like RDM, DNC, DRG, and so on.

[AppropriateName5786]

Making damage types or certain weapon types the target for adjustment is just flat out a stupid and bad idea. There's no reason we should even be talking about this.

I think that at this point in the game's life, saying the dev team is clueless is an understatement.

[Afania]

Making damage types or certain weapon types the target for adjustment is just flat out a stupid and bad idea. There's no reason we should even be talking about this. Anyone who plays this game should by now have figured out the issue here, it's the jobs, AoEs, and Enmity systems. The jobs aren't balanced well enough, this is why MNK is the only DD taken, it has more HP & just as much if not more than the DMG of any other DD, if you nerf Blunt you hurt PUP too, another job who's on the bad side of this whole deal. AoEs are overpowered, often causing too many debuffs/DMG and enough of a pain in the ass that you simply don't want to deal with it and instead opt to use jobs like RNG who can stand out of range and still do their job. Enmity is broken when it comes to PLDs holding hate and at the same time DDs take hate too easily, there's a reason jobs like RNG are taken so often besides their ability to avoid DMG, primarily that RNG need never fear taking hate. Rather than addressing the jobs and how mobs are designed it seems as though they plan to just add resistant mobs which will change nothing in the end rather than simply fixing broken jobs like RDM, DNC, DRG, and so on.

DRG is not "broken" though, it just needs a Mythic to function properly as a DD job. Wouldn't fixing it make Mythic DRG way too OP in this game? Unless there's a way to lower the gap between none Mythic DRG and mythic DRG without making mythic DRG way too OP.

[Demonjustin]

DRG is not "broken" though, it just needs a Mythic to function properly as a DD job. Wouldn't fixing it make Mythic DRG way too OP in this game? Unless there's a way to lower the gap between none Mythic DRG and mythic DRG without making mythic DRG way too OP.If the choice is between forcing every DRG in the game to obtain a Mythic in order to play their job and simply making the job strong enough to stand on it's own otherwise while making Mythic DRGs the top DD in the game, I opt for the second. It's the same thing I'd say in the case of RUN as well. No job should require something like a Mythic in order to function, especially not now when we've moved away from that completely stupid mentality in the case of most RMEs ruling supremely. Few jobs currently require RMEs, or rather specifically Mythics, in order to bridge the gap between them and their brethren, the top 3 off the top of my head are DRG, PUP, and RUN, each of which goes from being sub par to one of the best jobs in the game in their categories.

A DRG without a Mythic has much lower DPS than that of one with one, so much so that a Mythic DRG beats other DDs in some situations where as a non-Mythic DRG never really beats another DD unless the monster in question is specifically weak to their DMG type.

A PUP without a Mythic has a terrible amount of delay compared to MNK and relies on their Automaton for a portion of their DMG, this proves fatal on higher content even with the new pet food. Once you throw in KKK however a PUP becomes as powerful as a MNK on it's own basically, the only thing it lacks is the HP. With it's Automaton supporting it the PUP becomes almost as powerful as a MNK is overall with only it's HP being a true shortcoming outside of Formless Strikes.

A RUN without an Ergon weapon can't take melee DMG very well, even with it's massive immunity to magic DMG it basically still crumbles in front of most 120+ mobs. With an Ergon weapon a RUN can however, so much so that a RUN with it's Ergon weapon I believe is equal to a PLD with Ochain if not better when it comes to Physical DMG, and that's ignoring the fact that it has better hate tools and DD power than PLD does on top of that really makes it the turning point for the job.

In the end, I honestly hate the idea of making jobs OP by balancing them otherwise because we start up the whole RME debate & issue again. At the same exact time, I'd rather have that issue again with jobs since Mythics/Ergons are so rare as it is rather than go through the pain that we do now where some jobs require one of these incredibly rare weapons just to become acceptable.


In the end I also have to say, I don't know what makes a job broken apparently because in my opinion if a job ever requires something like a Mythic in order to perform adequately, it's broken.

[AppropriateName5786]

DRG is not "broken" though, it just needs a Mythic to function properly as a DD job.

You made an assertion and then contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Nothing new, but worth pointing out.

[predatory]

I don't know, making mobs resistant to one form of damage or another has been the way the game has always gone, and I'm totally fine with that, I have jobs that can do piercing and slashing, and I am going to level mnk for blunt so I can go to an event with the type of damage required for that event, (but I'll probably end up on brd anyway), and that's cool, what I'm afraid of though is with all the pissing and moaning that's been going on about rng, and mnk being the only jobs blah blah blah, is that SE is going to break out the nerf bat, and beat those jobs down to the ground because when SE nerf's they damn near destroy a jobs usefulness. New hard content resistant to various forms of damage yes, nerf no, one is good the other is not

[Mefuki]

I think the issue is that SE is being far too broad with this suggestion of, "Oh, we'll just make more mobs resist blunt (hurting PUP) and breath damage (making Wyvern breaths, breath spells and WS like Spirits Within even more useless then they already are, instead of actually making them more useful.)"

[Afania]

You made an assertion and then contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Nothing new, but worth pointing out.

Logically it didn't contradict itself though, I consider "broken"= existing gears can't fix it. When it comes to DRG and RUN I just use the more accurate description: "Weak without Mythic"

[Demonjustin]

Logically it didn't contradict itself though, I consider "broken"= existing gears can't fix it. When it comes to DRG and RUN I just use the more accurate description: "Weak without Mythic"Aka, the job is broken but there is a single weapon in the game so overpowered that it levels the playing field or makes the job actually good.

[Afania]

If the choice is between forcing every DRG in the game to obtain a Mythic in order to play their job and simply making the job strong enough to stand on it's own otherwise while making Mythic DRGs the top DD in the game, I opt for the second.



Aka, the job is broken but there is a single weapon in the game so overpowered that it levels the playing field or makes the job actually good.


Yes, because the OP weapon exist, fixing the job itself will make the job with the OP weapon way too OP. The ideal fix is to add more weapon that's close to the Mythic and lower the gap.

If you fix the job itself and make the job with Mythic way too OP, the game would be too easy for for those ppl with the job+ OP weapon. That is bad game design.

For example, making the DRG job stronger and Mythic DRG stronger than all other DD job = everyone and their mother that's serious about endgame gonna lv a DRG and make a Mythic for it.

So the future game content would be: super easy with elites with Mythic DRG, not that easy with other DDs. And you either lv DRG and build a Mythic to join the elite, clear wins in ultra efficiency and sell wins, or don't come DD because they'll just invite other Mythic DRG. That makes the gap between elite and none elite bigger, not smaller.

I'm not against fixing DRG and making none Mythic DRG more powerful, but I think it's bad game design to make Mythic DRG too OP. Just because Mythic DRG are the minority NOW, doesn't mean it's a good fix. It's a cheap way to fix the job from designer's POV.

Long time ago SE broke the game balance by handing out everyone OP empy weapons, and made empy a requirement to play the job. You either own one or don't play the job. Making Mythic DRG too OP is the same thing.

Making Mythic DRG more OP than every other job is bad fix.

[Demonjustin]

I don't think it's a good idea or design either, but if the choices are between having that or having what we have now I opt for having the change made. I'd rather DRG be overpowered with their Mythic than have a DRG without a Mythic being so weak that it's not able to really be played in any form of endgame. I'd say the same of RDM but there's an extremely high amount of bias in that instance, but either way it's a comparable idea. I know how it feels to main a job of which no one wants or takes to events really, be it detrimental to myself or not in the end I'd much rather DRGs in the same position as I am right now to be buffed to the point they can play their jobs even if it means not only reducing my own chances, but making one job overpowered. Perhaps in the end it would even result in an overall look at how the jobs and their weapons are balanced in the first place and just how much work needs done still in order to make all jobs effective.

In the end I've no want for any job to tower above the rest be it MNK, DRG, or RDM, but I've also no want for jobs to be completely held back by the fact that a single weapon in the entire game exists that can at times put it on a level playing field or a step above the others, especially when it's so rare.

[Afania]

I don't think it's a good idea or design either, but if the choices are between having that or having what we have now I opt for having the change made. I'd rather DRG be overpowered with their Mythic than have a DRG without a Mythic being so weak that it's not able to really be played in any form of endgame.

I don't agree with you then, because in current design, players can either


1. Job change and don't play DRG.

2. Build a Mythic, honestly it's not THAT hard with alex/assault solo-able now.

And still complete the content.

However, once the dev make 1 mythic DD way too OP and broke the game content balance, there's no turning back. I just told you what'd happen....the gap between "elite" and "avg" gets bigger, when every elite start to build a mythic DRG and make it an event requirement just because the job makes the content so much easier. And all the avg player can't come DD unless they're a mythic DRG.

You should look at the long term effect instead of just simple "players should be able to play DRG, even if there's major balancing/design issue"

Of course the best solution is to buff current none mythic DD weapon and close the gap.

[Demonjustin]

Build a Mythic, honestly it's not THAT hard with alex/assault solo-able now.If you want to talk about disagreements then we've a massive one right here as well. While Mythics aren't hard at all they're massive time & gil sinks that no person should be forced to do in order to play their job. I could do a Mythic in a matter of months if I cared to, so could any other player in this game practically at this point, but how many are truly going to put that time into it? Even if it were overpowered and the best job in the game it's unlikely you'd ever be able to truly push the player base in the same direction it was in back when people did things like VW or Legion and RMEs were the only option. At that time Empyreans were the most common, followed my Relics, and then far down the line were Mythics. If parties regulated themselves to Mythic DRGs only you'd see linkshells do it perhaps, but shouts? No, not even conceivably possible to make that restriction otherwise you'd have seen it as the restriction for Bee Delve runs even though they often times had Upu as a requirement instead even though it no where near matched Mythic, not because it was close, but because Mythic was an unreasonable expectation.

I won't lie and say no one would try it, but it'd be foolish to think it'd ever work out that way unless literally a 10th of the server's good players actually made DRG Relics, which going back to the whole time issue is so unlikely it's not a real threat. Also in the end it'd be a temporary fix since SE's unlikely to ever let that happen anyways and would likely nerf the Mythic or it's WS not long after in a similar way to how they nerfed VS & Ukko's so long ago I'm sure.

[Mitruya]

It was bad enough being left out of Ceizak Delve because I didn't have Upu. Please don't make me have to have a mythic to play DRG. I don't have months/years/tons of gil to make this. I want to participate in content NOW, not next year when everyone's already done with it. I don't see how this weapon would make a difference to invites - typically any non-MNK or RNG DD is shunned now due to low HP/defense/ability to avoid being one-shotted.

[Afania]

If you want to talk about disagreements then we've a massive one right here as well. While Mythics aren't hard at all they're massive time & gil sinks that no person should be forced to do in order to play their job. I could do a Mythic in a matter of months if I cared to, so could any other player in this game practically at this point, but how many are truly going to put that time into it? Even if it were overpowered and the best job in the game it's unlikely you'd ever be able to truly push the player base in the same direction it was in back when people did things like VW or Legion and RMEs were the only option. At that time Empyreans were the most common, followed my Relics, and then far down the line were Mythics. If parties regulated themselves to Mythic DRGs only you'd see linkshells do it perhaps, but shouts? No, not even conceivably possible to make that restriction otherwise you'd have seen it as the restriction for Bee Delve runs even though they often times had Upu as a requirement instead even though it no where near matched Mythic, not because it was close, but because Mythic was an unreasonable expectation.

I won't lie and say no one would try it, but it'd be foolish to think it'd ever work out that way unless literally a 10th of the server's good players actually made DRG Relics, which going back to the whole time issue is so unlikely it's not a real threat. Also in the end it'd be a temporary fix since SE's unlikely to ever let that happen anyways and would likely nerf the Mythic or it's WS not long after in a similar way to how they nerfed VS & Ukko's so long ago I'm sure.


You completely missed my first option and instantly just pick and bashed the 2nd option. Further more you're acting as if every player on the server insist to play DRG and would never consider other DD jobs.

After years of playing FFXI, I've met 3 types of DRG player:

1. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, they ended up playing other job like MNK to get shit done.

2. Loves DRG and built a Mythic for it.

3. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, continue to use other weapons and full time this job.

99% of the players I know are either No.1 or No.2, I can name less than 5 DRG belong No.3.

Basically, the one who can't afford a Mythic and refuse to play other jobs are the minority.

As for the /shout thing, almost every /shout still /shout for relic RNG. So yes, if the gap is there then the /shout will /shout for it. Even if that become LS only thing, you'd just see elite group able to clear the hardest content in superb efficiency while /shout pt struggle. You either get into the superb group if you want to take the efficiency advantage or struggle with /shout.

If that happens, it affects 90% of the endgame players in this game.

To say it in a better way, whether none mythic DRG is gimp or not doesn't affect me or you, unless you insist to full time DRG without mythic for some reason. But it will affect me and you if you want to make an endgame pt that can clear content efficiently. Me and you would need to spend more time looking for a mythic DRG to do the content.

Back when Rag was OP in legion and legion was the hardest endgame event, finding 5 DD with Rag gave me the biggest headache. Since most other DD jobs such as empy WAR MNK didn't parse as high.

I'd rather just spend 1hr to make the pt and do the hardest event with any DD job and they all perform in highest efficiency, instead of spending 3 days to make a pt and make a Mythic DRG only DD pt for the hardest content.

If they don't buff DRG at all and leave it as it is, it only affects 1% of player who insist to play DRG and wouldn't get a Mythic.

If they make DRG too OP, it affects most of the endgame player playing any job because of the gap between elite OP DD mythic DRG and other DD.

Yes, it'd affect mage players like you because you either have to spend 5hr to make a DD pt full of elite Mythic DRG, or play with a pt with other DD and suffer from worse efficiency.

Of course the best solution is to buff none Mythic polearm, but if this isn't an option, majority's happiness> minority's happiness.

[Demonjustin]

You completely missed my first option and instantly just pick and bashed the 2nd option.Do you know why? The start of this conversation was based on the idea that DRG is broken. If your solution to playing DRG is to play other jobs until you obtain the best possible weapon in the game for the job you actually want to play, then not only is the job broken but it's in a state so pathetic it might as well not even be in the game. If you have to play MNK, the cookie cutter of the world, just so you can gear up your DRG so that one day you'll have a Mythic or one day hopefully SE will make the job playable then you're looking at a terribly broken job off that basis alone. I know this because I've been in the same situation for years now with my RDM where I'm rejected and told to level other jobs, and for years I have, only recently have I finally come to the conclusion I can either become an exceptional RDM and while I'm rejected still get respect and acceptance from some or continue to give in to the social norms which have caused me to lose all hope in my job. I'm one of the people who leveled other jobs, who took your first option(albeit not in the exact same situation as it was RDM not DRG) and while I got my gear for my job it was depressing to have no ability to actually play my job and rather be forced to play others to attain my goals.

To sum it up, I ignored option 1 because option 1 is a terrible choice to make, no one should have to play other jobs constantly in order to gear up their favorite or main job, especially when that job won't ever be used as a result.


Further more you're acting as if every player on the server insist to play DRG and would never consider other DD jobs.Actually no, I know others would, I did too and I'm one of the few who actually stayed devoted to playing RDM all these years when the job completely died out and no one wanted it for anything. To say that people would never think to play other jobs is stupid, but just because people would do it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do or that it should need to be done.


After years of playing FFXI, I've met 3 types of DRG player:

1. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, they ended up playing other job like MNK to get shit done.

2. Loves DRG and built a Mythic for it.

3. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, continue to use other weapons and full time this job.

99% of the players I know are either No.1 or No.2, I can name less than 5 DRG belong No.3.

Basically, the one who can't afford a Mythic and refuse to play other jobs are the minority.The fact they're the minority doesn't mean the change still shouldn't happen. Yes there are few people that would go with option 3, but I assure you that were it not for the fact they actually want to play this game rather than beg everyone to take them to events you'd have a lot more of the people who are picking that first option doing the same. The thing is people don't want to log into this game to go afk or beg every shout they see to take a DRG, they want to do something, that means either they become an exceptional DRG or they play another job, since no one will take a DRG in the first place the chances are that in order to even become an exceptional DRG they'd have to play another job, then they get shafted onto that forever anyways and DRG becomes an obsolete goal. Tell me though, how many people do you know who pick option 2? How many people want so badly to play DRG that they'd go out of their way to make a Mythic just to play the job? I personally know of only 4 Mythic DRGs on my server and 1 of them I know likes the job but hardly uses his Mythic all the same and it's not his favorite job either. That number however, has to be far greater than the number of people who pick 3 otherwise your point is meaningless because apparently the Mythic path isn't too appealing to anyone wanting to play their job.


As for the /shout thing, almost every /shout still /shout for relic RNG. So yes, if the gap is there then the /shout will /shout for it. Even if that become LS only thing, you'd just see elite group able to clear the hardest content in superb efficiency while /shout pt struggle. You either get into the superb group if you want to take the efficiency advantage or struggle with /shout.

If that happens, it affects 90% of the endgame players in this game.

To say it in a better way, whether none mythic DRG is gimp or not doesn't affect me or you, unless you insist to full time DRG without mythic for some reason. But it will affect me and you if you want to make an endgame pt that can clear content efficiently. Me and you would need to spend more time looking for a mythic DRG to do the content.

Back when Rag was OP in legion and legion was the hardest endgame event, finding 5 DD with Rag gave me the biggest headache. Since most other DD jobs such as empy WAR MNK didn't parse as high.

I'd rather just spend 1hr to make the pt and do the hardest event with any DD job and they all perform in highest efficiency, instead of spending 3 days to make a pt and make a Mythic DRG only DD pt for the hardest content.There's a difference between what that was and what this would be in many ways as well. As I said, Empyreans and Relics were aplenty by compared to the number of Mythics in the world, also Legion content if I remember right had so much evasion a Ragnarok was nearly required on that fact alone, especially when you add in Resolution and the fact that people only PD zerged the event which meant kill speed was the primary goal. You're also forgetting part of the other reason why this was done was to weed out the bad players, there were tons of people with Ukon or Vere but not nearly as many people knew how to play their jobs and could actually get things done right, so requiring a Ragnarok was sort of an idiot-checker to make sure that the WAR you were getting was a somewhat well geared person, not someone who went to Abyssea for a few days and thought they were god. A Mythic DRG is far from something that would become required when we're clearing the content right now without it, so only people who want to maximize their chances of winning would be so stupid as to shout for Mythic DRGs or only accept them, which by the way in doing so would also lose efficiency since the time taken to shout for hours could've been used to try and learn the content in the first place. As for Relic RNGs, that's actually not as popular on Phoenix as elsewhere I suppose. I won't say people don't do it but I know quite a few non-Relic RNGS that go to things like AAs all the time and I also know some groups goto AAs without any RNG at all, a friend of mine was doing MR with PUPs on Difficult for instance. While that mentality does exist(and I grant you that) you're still looking at a large difference in the amount of work put in on something like this, and now that you bring up RNG it's also easy to point out that RNG isn't like RNG, it dies up close, unless they made it harder to kill like a RNG is even if a DRG was more deadly it'd likely never be a true job of dependence on most of this content.


If they don't buff DRG at all and leave it as it is, it only affects 1% of player who insist to play DRG and wouldn't get a Mythic.

If they make DRG too OP, it affects most of the endgame player playing any job because of the gap between elite OP DD mythic DRG and other DD.

Yes, it'd affect mage players like you because you either have to spend 5hr to make a DD pt full of elite Mythic DRG, or play with a pt with other DD and suffer from worse efficiency.I'm not discounting the effect it'd have on me, not at all. I'm also not looking at it only via the perspective of a mage, my RDM is built to melee as well and my opportunities are few. By making DRGs without Mythics actually playable it'd be throwing more people in there who'll take my DD spot in a heartbeat and leave me with even less of a chance. But really that's as far as I think this would ever go. You and I have different predictions on what would happen in the event they did this, you think that Mythic DRG would become the only DD and everything else would be ignored. I think that the daunting task of making a Mythic to do content would throw people completely off of it and simply make those with Mythics already some amazing DDs while everyone else might over time try to make them, but it'd be probably 3~6 months before it could even possibly become a norm, and by then SE would have had time to figure out a decent way to nerf the Mythic's power down to size.


Of course the best solution is to buff none Mythic polearm, but if this isn't an option, majority's happiness> minority's happiness.In general I agree, but while we're on the topic of happiness. Go ask those DRGs who play MNK and such to get their gear and progress in the game if they're truly happy with having to cop out like that just to gear their real job. If you ask them that and they actually say yes they're happy that way, then I'll say again you have a point but if the majority of them say that they're unhappy but just have to deal with it, then perhaps your happiness scale isn't quite the same as you think it is. I'll once again use anecdotal evidence of that though by saying right now that I made that choice, and I was never happy about having to make it in my entire time playing this game.



The reason I took apart and replied to every bit of the post is because replying to a single part of your last post seemed to bother you, and I've no want to reply to it as a whole in a single reply, cutting it up in this sort of way is the easiest method to reply to something along these lines. With that said I'd rather not continue this much further, our arguments primarily are based on predictions of outcomes from an update that will likely never happen in general. I am in and have been in the same situation basically every DRG is in with the exception they have a Mythic that makes them acceptable, I relate on that basis and want the job fixed so that they're not forced to make such a thing. You on the other hand look at it only from the viewpoint of how it could affect the game's balance and community and believe it would take us down another dark path we're only finally getting out of. In the end I believe that's where we both stand.

[Afania]

There's a difference between what that was and what this would be in many ways as well. As I said, Empyreans and Relics were aplenty by compared to the number of Mythics in the world, also Legion content if I remember right had so much evasion a Ragnarok was nearly required on that fact alone, especially when you add in Resolution and the fact that people only PD zerged the event which meant kill speed was the primary goal. You're also forgetting part of the other reason why this was done was to weed out the bad players, there were tons of people with Ukon or Vere but not nearly as many people knew how to play their jobs and could actually get things done right, so requiring a Ragnarok was sort of an idiot-checker to make sure that the WAR you were getting was a somewhat well geared person, not someone who went to Abyssea for a few days and thought they were god.

I knew a couple of good Vere/Ukon DD at that time, none of them can compete against rag DDs. The entire design and crit-hit rate- trait and high eva on NM just favor Rag DD a lot more. I didn't filter out Vere/Ukon DD cuz they were bad, but because they just parsed lower than rag.







I think that the daunting task of making a Mythic to do content would throw people completely off of it and simply make those with Mythics already some amazing DDs while everyone else might over time try to make them, but it'd be probably 3~6 months before it could even possibly become a norm, and by then SE would have had time to figure out a decent way to nerf the Mythic's power down to size.



Nerf 19 Mythic's power...you mean those who spent months and years to build other mythic only to get face slapped? That wasn't even close to a good suggestion, more like you're against your own argument.






A Mythic DRG is far from something that would become required when we're clearing the content right now without it, so only people who want to maximize their chances of winning would be so stupid as to shout for Mythic DRGs or only accept them,

ATM a mythic DRG won't make too much difference cuz DRG is not optimal in delve2 6 man run due to delve mechanics, yes. But 1) Unless the game shut down SE WILL create more higher lv content in the future. Maybe they'll create content lv 130, 140 and eventually 150 etc. AFAIK there are supposed to be 7 delve bosses total.

So yeah, you never know the difficulty of future content. I'd rather look at the entire balance issue from a long term POV instead of short sighted "fix".

2) In current delve2 content, your output actually matters. Having good output means you can make more mistake on pull/hate reset mechanics/amnesia/shitting accident. Having avg output means if you make 2~3 mistakes you will time out.

And btw, for content like VD battle field, I only go with relic RNG. Against higher lv content you really need to get as much output as possible.

Further more, even if the content is clear-able with avg DD setup, going with OP DD setup means you can farm the content in higher efficiency, and carry leeches, sell win, and so on.

So say, if future content has the same difficulty as delve2, while avg DD setup clearing them in 40 min, OP DD setup is clearing them in 20 min and farming plasm/gear twice as fast, or carry extra leeches and sell win. That created a gap and it'd become "be friends with OP DD or don't even think about efficiency/sell win".





In general I agree, but while we're on the topic of happiness. Go ask those DRGs who play MNK and such to get their gear and progress in the game if they're truly happy with having to cop out like that just to gear their real job. If you ask them that and they actually say yes they're happy that way, then I'll say again you have a point but if the majority of them say that they're unhappy but just have to deal with it, then perhaps your happiness scale isn't quite the same as you think it is. I'll once again use anecdotal evidence of that though by saying right now that I made that choice, and I was never happy about having to make it in my entire time playing this game.


And imagine a fix that'd make you happy, but it makes everyone else unhappy. Including the DRG who picked No.1 and feeling unhappy about it, they're still the minority v.s the entire endgame community.


Again, I'm not against fixing DRG, but only if Mythic DRG doesn't ended up way too OP v.s another DD, or else it's just a short sighted fix that doesn't really fix the game balance issue, but only create more weak DD job. According to my experience, most DD players tend to lv/gear the strongest DD, once those ppl all start to lv and gear Mythic DRG, SAM DRK MNK WAR gonna be the next job cry in the corner and click the job change button: that doesn't fix anything, just creates more problem.

[Demonjustin]

I knew a couple of good Vere/Ukon DD at that time, none of them can compete against rag DDs. The entire design and crit-hit rate- trait and high eva on NM just favor Rag DD a lot more. I didn't filter out Vere/Ukon DD cuz they were bad, but because they just parsed lower than rag.Never said it was the only reason, yes Rag was superior as well and I did say it was nearly required, but it was also an idiot-check.


Nerf 19 Mythic's power...you mean those who spent months and years to build other mythic only to get face slapped? That wasn't even close to a good suggestion, more like you're against your own argument.If the average DD is a 5, DRG is a 3, if the average DD Mythic is a 5 and DRG is a 7, then both totals are 10. If you buff DRG till it's a 5 by itself, then it's total will be 12, but you could still nerf the Mythic to a 5 or 6 and maintain more of a balance without slapping anyone in the face as it'd still be the superior weapon for the job no different than it is now only the power difference between a non-Mythic DRG and a Mythic DRG would be shortened while the overall power of the Mythic DRG would be maintained.

[Camate]

Greetings,

As an overarching theme for job adjustments we are planning to make attack adjustments to damage dealing jobs based on monk’s current attack capabilities.

One aspect of this overall adjustment plan was the skill chain and weapon skill enhancements that gave samurai more power.


Warrior
Compared to monk, warrior’s hit per hit strength is slightly lacking as an attacker, and the development team feels a need to give them attack power that is more suitable and in order to do this they are looking into a new type of system.


Puppetmaster
We’ll be reducing the damage gap between each of the weapon skills performed by automatons and make it so you’ll be able to better control your maneuvers to match the attachments you are using.


Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.

As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:

Implementation of higher-tier mochi
By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.


Improvements to the power of special abilities
Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.


New “Call Beast” pets
We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.



The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

[Malthar]

Can you throw in there food that enhances magic accuracy and magic attack for master and pet?

[Maledict]

Warrior
Puppetmaster
Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster


Please relay to the Dev Team that Dark Knight is in a particularly perilous situation at the moment--for all its Attack capability, it has no niche in Adoulin content that cannot be filled by another Slashing damage-dealer instead.

In general, really, I feel such adjustments should be carried out with the following question in mind: "Why should this job be invited in place of a Monk or Ranger for (insert Adoulin event here)?" If the question cannot be answered for the job under review, then the job should be re-evaluated until it can be. It seems to be an issue nearly as based in psychology ("BG said this was the most optimal, therefore we are using this setup, no arguments") as it is game mechanics--I don't envy your having to deal with this issue across each of the DD jobs, but it must be addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Alhanelem]

Greetings,

As an overarching theme for job adjustments we are planning to make attack adjustments to damage dealing jobs based on monk’s current attack capabilities.

One aspect of this overall adjustment plan was the skill chain and weapon skill enhancements that gave samurai more power.



Warrior
Compared to monk, warrior’s hit per hit strength is slightly lacking as an attacker, and the development team feels a need to give them attack power that is more suitable and in order to do this they are looking into a new type of system.
Puppetmaster
We’ll be reducing the damage gap between each of the weapon skills performed by automatons and make it so you’ll be able to better control your maneuvers to match the attachments you are using.
Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.

As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:

Implementation of higher-tier mochi
By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.
Improvements to the power of special abilities
Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.
New “Call Beast” pets
We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.





The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.
That's great and all, but why is summoner left out of this? If the devs think that summoner already exceeds the potential DPS of melee DD jobs (Whether with or without any DPS provided by the master), they have some re-assessing to do.

If you want to argue that their support abilities offset their lower damage, well, the problem here is that 1)Use of those support abilities is subject to the same kind of limitations as the attack abilities, 2) avatar's favor currently lowers damage potential for the summoner (though supposedly they are planning to change this) and 3) Many key buffs available on summoner are not used because they don't stack (nor do they refresh or overwrite) with the same/similar effects provided by other jobs. So we can't use some of them, and the ones we can use require too much waiting to put out or sacrifice our damage capability.

[Olor]

Really really really need to emphasize that if the goal is to truly make pet jobs have a standard base DPS higher than other DDs because of the cost/difficulty of pet upkeep you guys are going to have to massively increase the power of pets (not just ready moves) and the availability of gear with pet stats on them (which does not take things away from masters)... at a minimum.

Preferably without making pet jobs cost a fortune to play.

Anyway I hope you guys actually do it - would be nice to be considered a real DD at some point.

Also BST could really use dual wield - I don't understand why we have no dual wield and crummy shield skill and pretty much nothing worth wearing as a shield.

[Mitruya]

Holy cow I am excited

[Babekeke]

Has anyone bothered with the new food? Does it also have beneficial stats for the master as well, or are we gimping ourselves to make our pets less sub-par?

Edit: Also, <aimed at the devs> much of the pet: <stat> gear is also sub-par.

It's nice to see gear with pet: haste+ on it, but without useful stats for the master as well, we can't afford to wear it... I'm looking at you, Regimen Mittens!!

Hurch'lan Sash was a step in the right direction, but you seem to have got confused as to which jobs should go on it... namely, missing out SMN and DRG, while adding a handful of other jobs that don't ever use pets!!

[evanwimbish]

Make a linkshell points system where if you do certain events as a shell you get points, then you can use the linkshell points to buy linkshell buffs for linkshell members which the leader can place on members or weapons / armor that take a long time to get with linkshell bonuses for battle content or crafting. Also revamp tetra master so players can challenge each other in game and immediately start a match, then you get points to buy new cards! You could also turn this into an app and sell it on the app market for 20-50 bucks... Or turn tetra master into an app and then provide some ingame incentives for ffxi / ffxiv... I feel ffxi should expand into the app market to reach out to new consumers and this could be a strategic way to keep ffxi current, and with the very little start up cost you could turn the profit into creating a new expansion!

[WoW]

This buff appears to be just what the doctor ordered for bst. They implied that their DoT will be superior to non-pet jobs dd due to the cost associated with pet jobs. If the pet is a solid dd, which enables them to compete at a high level, the price is a non-factor imo. Efficacy > price. I can help how much paper I rack in, but, as a player, developmental/technical limitations are out of my hands. I will take an expensive solid dd pet that competes at a high level vs a cheap sub-par pet.

[Malithar]

Warrior
Compared to monk, warrior’s hit per hit strength is slightly lacking as an attacker, and the development team feels a need to give them attack power that is more suitable and in order to do this they are looking into a new type of system.

Rather excited about this. To be willing to go back to the drawing board and create a new system for a job will set a precedent that other jobs may be redesigned to have a different focus through the use of a new type of system, rather than just more stats. Anxious to see what this system my be.

[Muras]

Please relay to the Dev Team that Dark Knight is in a particularly perilous situation at the moment--for all its Attack capability, it has no niche in Adoulin content that cannot be filled by another Slashing damage-dealer instead.

In general, really, I feel such adjustments should be carried out with the following question in mind: "Why should this job be invited in place of a Monk or Ranger for (insert Adoulin event here)?" If the question cannot be answered for the job under review, then the job should be re-evaluated until it can be. It seems to be an issue nearly as based in psychology ("BG said this was the most optimal, therefore we are using this setup, no arguments") as it is game mechanics--I envy your having to deal with this issue across each of the DD jobs, but it must be addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. The sad thing is, people have made countless suggestions, good ones even, and DRK still hasn't gotten anything. The issue for DRK, for me especially, is that there's no reason to cast magic, ever. Many people, many DRKs even, laugh at the idea of casting magic but that's because it's always been so terrible. It could be made useful, it just needs to happen. But since it never casts magic, it's like every other DD melee out there; swing until you got enough TP to use weapon skill and repeat (Using your respective abilities when they're up too of course). If I wanted to play a job more along those lines I'd just do WAR or MNK in the first place.

What's even more sad is when you look back when the level cap was raised from 75 and beyond, DRK barely got anything too. Seriously, in short summery:

Higher tier elemental spells (Which are awful... And even more awful with Item Level gear since no weapons DRK gets have Magic Damage+)
Endark (Which isn't bad, but since Item Level gear it's fallen behind too)
Absorb-Attri (It's situationally useful)
Nether Void (Meh)
Arcane Crest (Ugh. Granted many jobs got one of these. Why did SE even bother?)
Scarlet Delirium (We've had this for years now, Camate, so could you pass it along to the dev team that it's as terrible as we thought it would be even BEFORE it was added to the game?)

Only awesome addition, or rather, adjustment over the years was boosting Last Resort to last 3 mins instead of 30 seconds.

Add new Absorbs? Like, Absorb-MEVA, Absorb-EVA, Absorb-MATK... Useful stuff? But now with RDM getting enfeebs along those lines (Which I have nothing against at all, RDM getting these things isn't the problem), even if we did get those absorbs SE would make it so that they can't co-exist/stack. They could make a unique debuff for them ("Absorb-Speed" debuff instead of "Slow" for example) but they wouldn't because... I dunno. Square-Enix.

There're other ideas too floating around, devs just need to take a peek at some old posts in the DRK forum. Although it's pretty dead there these days... I think most people have completely given up, especially after rubbing salt in every DRK's open wound after listing Absorb adjustments and then cancelling them, among other things.

[Olor]

This buff appears to be just what the doctor ordered for bst. They implied that their DoT will be superior to non-pet jobs dd due to the cost associated with pet jobs. If the pet is a solid dd, which enables them to compete at a high level, the price is a non-factor imo. Efficacy > price. I can help how much paper I rack in, but, as a player, developmental/technical limitations are out of my hands. I will take an expensive solid dd pet that competes at a high level vs a cheap sub-par pet.

Agreed, if that is the trade off that has to be made, yes I want to not suck more than I want to not be completely broke all the time, but no other job has to make that choice anymore so BST shouldn't have to either. I'm totally fine with having to pay a bit to single-handedly keep cooking viable but I'd really like there to always be a cheap useable option.

It's totally fine to have a couple more expensive pets with niche uses (like TH or specific debuffs or exceptional in some way) but players shouldn't have to spend their lives farming to afford to just do basic stuff. Ideally I'd like at least one full power pet that can be bought for 20K a stack or less. I'm okay with there being some pets more expensive than that but we should have at least one full-power decent jug that can be made by relatively low cooking skill with easy to access ingredients.

Cause it really sucks to say do Walk of Echoes and call beast timer isn't even up by the time I've finished a run and started the next one - let alone having to lay down a bunch of gil for every pet.

[Ophannus]

Can start by buffing DRG with any of the following myriad suggestions:

1) Replaced "Critical Defense Bonus" with "Critical Attack Bonus"
Rationale: DRG has many Critical Attack based abilities i.e Drakesbane, Skewer, Spirit Jump, Soul Jump. By comparison, Dark Knight has almost none, yet DRK gets Critical Attack Bonus?

2) Remove the attack penalty on Drakesbane and Penta Thrust.

3) Create a Job Ability for Dragoon that increases their DPS. Something like Last Resort or Hasso. Something that increases the DPS of the Dragoon itself, maybe something like: Attack+15% Attack Speed+15% Wyvern Max HP -15%. Duration is 3 minutes. It would be a weaker Last Resort! Come on!!

4) Make Wyvern's breath attacks be based on Maximum HP, not Current HP. This will let them deal full Breath damage even when at low HP(which is most of the time in hard content)

5) Increase the bonus that Jumps receive when the Wyvern is called, either more TP, accuracy bonus or attack bonus.

6) Add an additional Jump that shares a timer with Super Jump that deals critical damage and grants 3.5x TP.

7) When DRG uses Jump, High Jump, Spirit Jump, Soul Jump, the Wyvern should ready and use 'Dive' attacks. These 'dives' should be instant use(the same charge time as Super Climb) and deal critical damage

8) Wyvern Breath attacks need to be reevaluated. 100-200 damage every WS seems nice but since it takes about 2 seconds to use, and 2 seconds after use for the Wyvern to resume Autoattacks, that's ~4 seconds where the Wyvern isn't attacking. In turn, the Wyvern could have dealt similar or more damage by just autoattacking.

9) Traits! DRG severely lacks powerful traits like Martial Arts, Double Attack, Zanshin, Overwhelm. Perhaps give us more potent Accuracy Bonuses, or some kind of 'proc' trait that when activates allows that attack to ignore all defense. For example, a trait called "Piercing Attack". (Level 65) 10% chance to occasionally ignore defense. It can proc on auto attacks or on hits in a weapon skill or Jumps. This would give DRG a passive trait that can activate during auto attacks like Double Attack, Triple Attack, Zanshin, Kick Attacks etc...

10) Building on the previous suggestion, just how Warrior's Charge forces a Double Attack and Assassin's Charge forces a Triple Attack; DRG could have Wyrm Charge, which would force a "Piercing Attack" proc.

[WoW]

It really depends on the players/market. However,i completely understand where you are coming from Olor^^ Personally, I do not believe the players will allow a powerful sheep to cost 20k a stack. If the community is aware of the pet's efficacy and demand, they may price it extremely high. For instance, the new "lol hq" pets are like 100k for singles!? Whaaa? Another example is those useless run of the mill weapons that shot up in price after the JSE update.

NN was pretty cheap iirc and the ingredients were pretty common. Imo, the major factors that determine the price of these new jugs are synergy, alchemy and cooking. Those two are a hassle to level, hence ppl may be inclined to pay top dollar for a jug, even if the mats are fairly common. I over-payed for Oboro weapons because I did not have the required crafting skill to make them. On occasions, ppl will over-price the mats, even if they are common drops (Ruszor meat for instance). Even if the mats were fairly common, the only ppl whom could use them are cooks, carpenters, or alchemist, hence they may manipulate the market. Fizzy broth is currently overpriced imo; those mats are readily available, but the difference is cooking skill and/or synergy. The bird is also over-priced, Akaso and the fish are very common, but not everyone wants to level a craft (Understandably so) and the craft they choose to level may not have been cooking.

[Reichleiu]

I literally just posted a long response to the "Can't buff DRG because Mythic DRG would be too OP" BS that has been floating around.. but somehow I was logged off so I lost the whole thing.

Quick version.

Mythic DRG is not OP currently. The reason you make a mythic is so that you can be a competitive DD in end-game situations where you were miles behind before.

SAM, mythic or otherwise, is the most broken job in the game right now spamming Fudos for 11-14k in end-game. Mythic DRG, comparatively, is doing 5-10k Drakesbanes with an extreme lack of crit rate due to lack of current crit rate gear and uncapped dDex against modern content. Thats not even mentioning the attack penalty, and 50% STR mod.

Mythic DRG is not even close to as good as it was pre-adoulin.

DRG needs help.. it suffers mostly from not having any self-sustaining offensive abilities other than 2 jumps. (I say 2 because the other ones are not used nearly as often)

While I disagree with Ophannus, as some of his fixes outside of the piercing trait seem a bit OP, there is plenty you could do to buff DRG without making Ryu too overpowered. For instance...

1. Add an attack boosting ability that is not as strong percentage wise as berserk or soul eater. (It would have to be very mild but noticeable)
2. Split the jump timers so DRG can use ALL of their jumps. (Not sure why SE hasn't done this yet tbh)
3. Make it so I can choose whether or not my Wyvern uses ele breaths, or add physical special abilities to my wyvern based on the item lvl of my weapon. (Most annoying issue is seeing my Pet stop attack to use some breath that does less damage than its NQ attack) Honestly.. just fix the Wyvern in general.
5. Make it so my wyvern CANNOT DIE. (High lv Jumps are useless without it)
4. Fix Drakesbane by either removing the att penalty, increasing its crit chance, increasing the mod.. but only do one of these things.
5. Remove the native piercing resistance that EVERY monster that is not weak to piercing has. (This will never happen because THF and DNC would instantly be to top DDs in the game.)

You don't have to do all of these things to DRG, but doing 1 or two would fix the job without making it too OP.

Even if you made Ryu the most OP weapon in the game, it still would not become a requirement for end-game content. Anyone who thinks this will happen is living in a fantasy.

Bottom line, most DRG do not have a mythic and never will. How about all of the Relic DRGs that don't get to do much because X job is better than them? Ignoring the 99% because you are afraid of making 1% of the DRG population a little better than other DDs is extremely shortsighted. DRG has needed a tweak for 10 years now and will be lucky to get one any time soon.

I was one of the DRGs that refused to play a different DD job and just rolled with what I had until I finished my mythic. Been DRG main since 2003. It was was torture but I never quit. Nobody should have to be forced to play other jobs because players are too afraid that 1% of the players playing that job with be broken if it gets a buff.

[Glamdring]

Please relay to the Dev Team that Dark Knight is in a particularly perilous situation at the moment--for all its Attack capability, it has no niche in Adoulin content that cannot be filled by another Slashing damage-dealer instead.

In general, really, I feel such adjustments should be carried out with the following question in mind: "Why should this job be invited in place of a Monk or Ranger for (insert Adoulin event here)?" If the question cannot be answered for the job under review, then the job should be re-evaluated until it can be. It seems to be an issue nearly as based in psychology ("BG said this was the most optimal, therefore we are using this setup, no arguments") as it is game mechanics--I don't envy your having to deal with this issue across each of the DD jobs, but it must be addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

and please be advised, a difference of even .1 in DPS output is sufficient to see to it that mnk and rng are still the only permitted DD jobs in those "strategies". not to mention, if you make them viable alternatives to mnk or rng the mnks and rngs will be all over here QQing like crazy.

[Demonjustin]

As it stands I believe you could make other DDs stronger and MNK/RNG would still be the best because of enmity/HP.

[Mitruya]

{Yes. please} to any or all those DRG suggestions mentioned above. As everyone has said, everything is "RNG-only" or "MNK-only" now; after finally getting an Upukirex I don't even get to play DRG for much of anything.

[Afania]

I literally just posted a long response to the "Can't buff DRG because Mythic DRG would be too OP" BS that has been floating around.. but somehow I was logged off so I lost the whole thing.

Quick version.

Mythic DRG is not OP currently. The reason you make a mythic is so that you can be a competitive DD in end-game situations where you were miles behind before.


If you read previous discussion, no one said Mythic DRG being OP. It's more about none mythic DRG's output is so low that if you buff none mythic DRG to SAM lv, mythic DRG will be way too OP.

For example, if you have A job doing 600 DPS, B job doing 300 DPS, B job with mythic doing 500 DPS. Buffing B job from 300 DPS to 600 means 100% increase, that means B job with mythic would ended up doing 1000 DPS.

I value game balance(although I never understand why'd SE break game balance with last update) more than just blindly hand out every job increased DPS.

I didn't say anything about Mythic DRG being OP currently, I only said it WILL be OP if they're buffing none mythic DRG to current SAM level of dmg. However, it probably doesn't matter considering SE no longer value balance that much with last update. Typical Matsui style since Abyssea era.

[Malithar]

However, it probably doesn't matter considering SE no longer value balance that much with last update. Typical Matsui style since Abyssea era.

I'd take Matsui's style any day over a decade of Tanaka running this game into the ground with piss poor production and development, 2-3 month updates that lacked content, and a balance among the jobs much worse than what we have now.

[detlef]

I'd take Matsui's style any day over a decade of Tanaka running this game into the ground with piss poor production and development, 2-3 month updates that lacked content, and a balance among the jobs much worse than what we have now.It's not like we can't appreciate certain aspects of each person's style. It's okay to want greater balance while still appreciating what Matsui has brought to the table.

[Olor]

balance among the jobs much worse than what we have now.

I dispute this. I am very happy with all the quality of life stuff happening now, but at least we used to have proc systems that necessitated a slightly larger variety of jobs than are used now. People can hate on voidwatch's proc system all they want but that was and is the only end game content we've ever seen that actually brought most jobs and made them feel like they were contributing.

I am hopeful the devs can improve balance but right now my BST is just utterly useless. My blu is almost utterly useless, and my THF isn't even any good for Treasure Hunter anymore since we get chests and other nonsense that makes it pointless.

We just had a WS update that gave SAM extremely OVERPOWERED WS compared to other jobs. Like, SAM was weaponskilling just fine, thanks... why did they get a boost to be doing 15K damage while BST is lucky to get 5K+? That's asinine.

[Afania]

I'd take Matsui's style any day over a decade of Tanaka running this game into the ground with piss poor production and development, 2-3 month updates that lacked content, and a balance among the jobs much worse than what we have now.

Why can't we ask for both though. Also the balance among jobs in Tanaka era wasn't much worse than what we have now. Abyssea difficulty+ MNK OP issue and current endgame difficulty + SAM and SC OP issue is clearly just bad design all over.

[Reichleiu]

If you read previous discussion, no one said Mythic DRG being OP. It's more about none mythic DRG's output is so low that if you buff none mythic DRG to SAM lv, mythic DRG will be way too OP.

For example, if you have A job doing 600 DPS, B job doing 300 DPS, B job with mythic doing 500 DPS. Buffing B job from 300 DPS to 600 means 100% increase, that means B job with mythic would ended up doing 1000 DPS.

I value game balance(although I never understand why'd SE break game balance with last update) more than just blindly hand out every job increased DPS.

I didn't say anything about Mythic DRG being OP currently, I only said it WILL be OP if they're buffing none mythic DRG to current SAM level of dmg. However, it probably doesn't matter considering SE no longer value balance that much with last update. Typical Matsui style since Abyssea era.

Really.. you took one piece of what I said to prove your point instead of taking the whole thing as the entire argument and I'm the one that needs to read through the previous 5 pages of discussion? That little bit about Mythic DRG not being OP currently was in response to someone mentioning Normal DRG being a 3 and mythic DRG being a 7, where other DDs are a 5. Well.. that would make it sound like Ryu DRG is OP. Really Mythic DRG is between a 5 and 7 and SAM without a mythic is a 6 or 7 depending on content too... Relic RNG is a 7.. the list goes on. Mythic SAM is probably a 9 if we use this scale.

They buffed SAM, just SAM in general, not mythic SAM. Now Mythic SAM is "Too OP". Mythic DRG doesn't even have the same output on modern content that a non-mythic sam has after this current buff. Let me give you an example.. I have pretty much a perfect Drakesbane set, just missing HQ feet instead of NQ feet (Hrafn). I even went so far as to spreadsheet and parse out whether or not gearing for capped dDex in modern content was better, turns out it was. I did a Tojil run with a non-mythic 119 Masa SAM the other day. Just on tojil, I was 50k ahead of him after piercing phase while keeping AM3 on the entire time. By the end of the fight he was 20k ahead of me! That means that just during double damage phase he was able to make up 70k+ damage. We both blew the monk out of the water, but non-mythic SAM should not be putting up those numbers. Before this update that wouldn't have been even close to possible. Before this update I could use Upukirex and not fall behind more than 10k if the SAM wasn't using Namas or Apex during piercing.

When my Mythic Drakesbane is only doing 8k during double damage phase and any Frankie Fudo SAM with a Tsumumaru can spam his WS for 14-17k during his phase without removing the aura, there is a major issue there.

DRG received practically nothing this last update. Stardiver and Drakes are still king and they are lightyears behind other DD WSs. Buffing non-mythic DRGs would increase how strong Mythic DRG is.. but only to the point that it could be competitive with mythic SAM in its current form, which is where it was pre-adoulin anyway. This argument that buffing DRG would make Ryu owners so OP that people would only shout for them is totally bogus.

Unless something is completely neutral or weak to piercing, DRG, even with a mythic, falls well behind in modern FFXI. This needs to be addressed.

[WoW]

No clue how the bst and jug combined will surpass a sam in the dd-department (Non-pet dds). Sams gain tp rather quickly and hit like a truck after the recent update. Jug pets are the polar opposite. They are restricted to a lame ready meter and gain tp at a slow rate. Jugs ready moves are also quite weak. Imo, their ready moves would have to be extremely powerful to compensate for the lack of a tp bar or the slow tp gain; unless they enhance the pet's tp gain, but the ready meter would restrict them in terms of ws usage regardless.

The only scenario were a bst could out-dd a sam is if the bst and/or pet are severely overpowered. A sam is spamming ws, hence they ws more often than a pet/master. The duo will need to gain tp at a decent rate, because a sam doing tachi's every few seconds is still superior to a powerful pet/master. The good ready moves usually cost 2 or three charges, hence the sam would still top this combo. I have no idea how this combo could top a sam, lol, a mnk? Yes, but not a sam.

[Afania]

Really.. you took one piece of what I said to prove your point instead of taking the whole thing as the entire argument and I'm the one that needs to read through the previous 5 pages of discussion? That little bit about Mythic DRG not being OP currently was in response to someone mentioning Normal DRG being a 3 and mythic DRG being a 7, where other DDs are a 5. Well.. that would make it sound like Ryu DRG is OP. Really Mythic DRG is between a 5 and 7 and SAM without a mythic is a 6 or 7 depending on content too... Relic RNG is a 7.. the list goes on. Mythic SAM is probably a 9 if we use this scale.

They buffed SAM, just SAM in general, not mythic SAM. Now Mythic SAM is "Too OP". Mythic DRG doesn't even have the same output on modern content that a non-mythic sam has after this current buff. Let me give you an example.. I have pretty much a perfect Drakesbane set, just missing HQ feet instead of NQ feet (Hrafn). I even went so far as to spreadsheet and parse out whether or not gearing for capped dDex in modern content was better, turns out it was. I did a Tojil run with a non-mythic 119 Masa SAM the other day. Just on tojil, I was 50k ahead of him after piercing phase while keeping AM3 on the entire time. By the end of the fight he was 20k ahead of me! That means that just during double damage phase he was able to make up 70k+ damage. We both blew the monk out of the water, but non-mythic SAM should not be putting up those numbers. Before this update that wouldn't have been even close to possible. Before this update I could use Upukirex and not fall behind more than 10k if the SAM wasn't using Namas or Apex during piercing.

When my Mythic Drakesbane is only doing 8k during double damage phase and any Frankie Fudo SAM with a Tsumumaru can spam his WS for 14-17k during his phase without removing the aura, there is a major issue there.

DRG received practically nothing this last update. Stardiver and Drakes are still king and they are lightyears behind other DD WSs. Buffing non-mythic DRGs would increase how strong Mythic DRG is.. but only to the point that it could be competitive with mythic SAM in its current form, which is where it was pre-adoulin anyway. This argument that buffing DRG would make Ryu owners so OP that people would only shout for them is totally bogus.

Unless something is completely neutral or weak to piercing, DRG, even with a mythic, falls well behind in modern FFXI. This needs to be addressed.


I'd say before update mythic DRG was roughly on same tier as other mainstream DD such as vere MNK, but below koga. After update it's probably behind avg SAM. It wasn't OP before update and it certainly isn't OP now. I was just saying it MAY get OP if SE buffed DRG and do it wrong. How'd I know they ended up buffing SAM and do it even more wrong - -

If anything, I'm against the design decision of last update if that makes you happy. IMO, it's a terribly executed update not just broke the game balance with SAM and SC dmg. What's the point to create content ILV128 content when SAM can trio box it? What's the point to solve merit WS issue by making Fudo way too OP? What's the point to buff 1h job and SAM still being the most OP job?

The worst part is, after Matsui became producer, they tend to not to use "nerf" as a tool to achieve game balance, because players emotionally hates nerf and loves buff so they want to please the player, even if the nerf hate is irrational. So they see everyone MNK everything, they buff SAM and now SAM being too OP. In order to get other jobs to catch up, they need to buff other jobs like WAR DRG to same lv of output, leaving content ILV128 no difficulty. Doing content lv 128 at lv 119 cap with 1 character+ 2 mules or killing it in 15~20 min with 6 ppl doesn't really fit the definition of fun, IMO.

You can praise quality of life improvement, or more frequent update, but it doesn't change the fact that this update is just full of wrong when it comes to balance between jobs and content difficulty.

[Tennotsukai]

I wonder if SE is going to do anything for blu to help that job acquire party invites. I feel we're just as bad in shape as some other jobs.

[Afania]

I wonder if SE is going to do anything for blu to help that job acquire party invites. I feel we're just as bad in shape as most other DD jobs.


Fixed! :D

10 characters.