So i leeched my job to 90 in abyssea

[hordecore]

do i need to cap wind and string or only one of them should suffice?

[rog]

No real need for string.

[RaenRyong]

go and grind on thousands of birds to get skilful

[Flunklesnarkin]

I thought the brd empyrean was a stringed weapon..

I don't know how good it is though.. haven't bothered with brd in a while.

[rog]

go and grind on thousands of birds to get skilful
ilu

1234567890

[Rambus]

String is pretty worthless unless you plan on getting the emp instrument.

seems pretty worthless this point though.

string is also nice to have if in mage party while lacking that ballad horn. ( i think it is a wind?)

[Tenshibaby]

I'm 90 now so how do I play my job?


Sad state the game has sunken to.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

ok see this is the crap I was talking about.........

[RaenRyong]

Grinding the old way totally would've told him if he needed String at the end of his levelling.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

a level 90 should not be asking this question, plain and simple.

[RaenRyong]

So you know everything about all of your jobs, present and future?

If it was something like "do I need Victory March?" then yeah I'd agree but he's asking whether he needs to cap (ie use) String.

[Greatguardian]

Better an Abyssean-bred Bard who asks basic questions than an "Old style" Trog who is determined to prove that "their way" is good.

Serious answer, Wind/Singing minimum. If you care enough or think you'll ever use a harp, you may as well skill wind to whatever Hpemdes cap at.

[Tenshibaby]

Better an Abyssean-bred Bard who asks basic questions than an "Old style" Trog who is determined to prove that "their way" is good.
I'd value the opinions of someone who earned their job over anyone who leeched their job through Abyssea. Seriously, some of you apologists are just bending over backwards to justify doing things the easy way. Maybe the game is just too hard for some of you.

[Greatguardian]

I'd value the opinions of someone who earned their job over anyone who leeched their job through Abyssea. Seriously, some of you apologists are just bending over backwards to justify doing things the easy way. Maybe the game is just too hard for some of you.

Sorry, I value facts significantly more than opinions. Especially when the opinion is something like "I don't think Haste is worth using because I pull hate enough on my WAR with 5% haste"

I'll say it again. I'd rather have someone who doesn't know and asks questions than someone who thinks they know and refuses answers.

[rog]

Hey guys, i'm a level 90 rdm, do i need to skill up my divine skill?

[Greatguardian]

Hey guys, i'm a level 90 rdm, do i need to skill up my divine skill?

Duh. RDM/WHM Chainspell Flash for teh zergs.

[KorPoni]

Sorry, I value facts significantly more than opinions. Especially when the opinion is something like "I don't think Haste is worth using because I pull hate enough on my WAR with 5% haste"

I'll say it again. I'd rather have someone who doesn't know and asks questions than someone who thinks they know and refuses answers.

True that. Like I say: someone who has an educated opinion is still stating just an opinion.

I'd say cap all your brd skills, get all available spells, then experiment with gear for whatever works best for you. You'll need to learn the job one way or another, so don't be shy to experiment as long as you aren't costing other people their time and effort doing it.

[rog]

Duh. RDM/WHM Chainspell Flash for teh zergs.
Ah, right. Thanks, didn't think of that. Brb leveling divine.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Sorry, I value facts significantly more than opinions. Especially when the opinion is something like "I don't think Haste is worth using because I pull hate enough on my WAR with 5% haste"

I'll say it again. I'd rather have someone who doesn't know and asks questions than someone who thinks they know and refuses answers.

I dont know what you are referring too here, but facts over opinions? How is it an opinion that it is bad for a level 90 BRD to be asking this question?

I took my time to learn my jobs, the jobs I play I know how to use, am I the best? no, but I do not suck by any means. Over the years I have taken advice from others and read how other people play and adapt to my own. I wont listen to some one tell me how to play DRG or DNC, if they just leeched their way to 90, even though I am only 75 on both those jobs.
I admit I have some catching up to do for the year I was gone, but it does not involve being lazy. I will level my lv 75 jobs in the new areas as that is my next place to do so, and continue to read up on the new things, and work on my equipment.

[Greatguardian]

I dont know what you are referring too here, but facts over opinions? How is it an opinion that it is bad for a level 90 BRD to be asking this question?

I took my time to learn my jobs, the jobs I play I know how to use, am I the best? no, but I do not suck by any means. Over the years I have taken advice from others and read how other people play and adapt to my own. I wont listen to some one tell me how to play DRG or DNC, if they just leeched their way to 90, even though I am only 75 on both those jobs.
I admit I have some catching up to do for the year I was gone, but it does not involve being lazy. I will level my lv 75 jobs in the new areas as that is my next place to do so, and continue to read up on the new things, and work on my equipment.

I wasn't talking to you at all. Read the post I quoted in that post, and then read my post. They were talking about "The opinions of someone who earned their levels".

I could also care less how someone leveled. If they know what they're talking about, they know what they're talking about. If they don't, they don't. I Abyssea-burned RDM to 90 and I dare say I could give most "Career, earned-my-level" RDMs a lesson or twelve about the job.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

I was a little confused about your post to be honest, I read what you had quoted and what you said, but was trying to figure out where you where pulling the thing about haste from -.-

[Greatguardian]

I was a little confused about your post to be honest, I read what you had quoted and what you said, but was trying to figure out where you where pulling the thing about haste from -.-

It's just an example of an "Opinion" I hear from "Players who earned their levels" all the time.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

really? thats some bad stuff -.- wow 5% haste? really?

[Greatguardian]

really? thats some bad stuff -.- wow 5% haste? really?

Page 3+ of Frost's Haste Guide thread on here was a pretty prime example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. There are fairly good players who leveled and did missions the hard way and choose to be proud of it, but they are extremely few and far between. For the most part, when you see someone pulling the "Opinion" card, or the "Earn EXP because it's the real challenge in MMOs" card, they're typically the full aurore/perle type. That's not a jab at you, because I don't know you, it's just an incredibly common trend.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

ah yeah I noticed that too, some of that armor is goo for just starting out at 75+ but even I know it has to go rather fast and I have only read up on it lol

[Flunklesnarkin]

Cap both.. its not like skilling up takes a long time any more...

[Kazen]

Doesn't really matter anyways lol, this is a troll thread.

[Kirana]

I leeched my nin in abyssea, and I'm far better than 90% of the other nins that I see. How you get to level 90 has no bearing on how well you play the job. It's all based on how willing you are to sit down, research, and learn how to play it.

[RaenRyong]

where's your ffxiah avatar

[Kanjitai]

is there something wrong with being in the full gear you can get from aby? I know there's better gear then it but a lot of gear requires a lot of time and effort to get. more then I want to vest in a game. I try to get the best gear I can off AH.

[Kingofgeeks]

honestly, think of how much time you've saved leeching to 90. It took me months to get my first job to 75. So my suggestion? even if it takes forever to skill up, do it, and max it out. you already saved time leveling, might as well earn it by making sure you're skilled and know how to use your job

[Frost]

It's just an example of an "Opinion" I hear from "Players who earned their levels" all the time.

Opinions become fact once passed through the magical incantation:

"I read somewhere that ______."

Once an opinion is read unchallenged, it's as good as fact.....

[Runespider]

Leeching gives people with not much left to do...something to do and another job to grind out some gear on. I don't have a problem with leeching in itself really, I hate how the leeching system ruins the XP party system outside of Abyssea but thats something else.

String has a minor advantage in range for horde but you lose some accuracy, I only ever used it for the PUK ENM thingy cause I kept missing some of the puks using wind. Really there is no serious reason to bother with string and for gear I would go all out on magic acc/wind skill/singing skill cause all they are truely good for anymore is landing the correct threnody.

[rog]

is there something wrong with being in the full gear you can get from aby? I know there's better gear then it but a lot of gear requires a lot of time and effort to get. more then I want to vest in a game. I try to get the best gear I can off AH.
Nothing wrong with full perle for new players. It's not great, but is acceptable for those without af3. The other two sets however are worthless as full sets (except precast teal for the fast cast), and under no circumstances is it ok to be wearing them.

[rog]

Leeching gives people with not much left to do...something to do and another job to grind out some gear on. I don't have a problem with leeching in itself really, I hate how the leeching system ruins the XP party system outside of Abyssea but thats something else.
Abyssea leeching didn't ruin exping outside abyssea. People not wanting to exp outside abyssea ruined exping outside abyssea.

[Eeek]

Grinding the old way totally would've told him if he needed String at the end of his levelling.

Grinding the new way totally told me that it's ok to level RDM mostly nekkid since I'm Mithra. All I needed was my trusty Apollo's Staff, my type-casted cures and hastes, and the frosty Uleguerand breeze shooting up my Vermillion Cloak.

[wish12oz]

I find if you leech a job to 90, then go skill up for a day or 2 to cap stuff, then spend another day learning about the job by reading and asking questions, its much faster then then 'Exping the real way,' and it accomplishes the same thing. You should all stfu and be happy he's trying to learn the job instead of 'ZOMG YOU LEECHED TO 90 YOU FAIL'

[Haglaz]

wow...just freaking wow.

[RaenRyong]

Grinding the new way totally told me that it's ok to level RDM mostly nekkid since I'm Mithra. All I needed was my trusty Apollo's Staff, my type-casted cures and hastes, and the frosty Uleguerand breeze shooting up my Vermillion Cloak.

mmmmm

just don't forget your Warlock's Tights!

[Vivik]

mmmmm

just don't forget your Warlock's Tights!

Subligaria or gtfo!

[Dallas]

I don't know why people give this OP grief. Most jobs do 1-2 things in exp parties too. For SMN, that 1 thing is cast Cure 3. Every new 75-90 is going to be lost finding gear, skilling up, etc. My latest 90 job needs to figure out how to cap Parry... I totally get this thread.

[Malamasala]

It is funny though, since you can leech up to 90 and ask for information, and become just as skilled as someone who asks at level 20. Those who never ask, are the ones you need to avoid.

[Dallas]

I agree. No shame in asking.

[Niklz]

do i need to cap wind and string or only one of them should suffice?

That's a pretty common question for a new brd to ask.
Starting the question off with "I just leeched my job to 90.." isn't a good way to ask it though.

[Rambus]

There is no harm is asking what you need to be good, or show a willingness to perform on the top of your game.

The ones that replay "do not tell me how to play my job" when it is a rdm meleeing with staff or saying your walahra turban gives you 5 seconds off provoke are the people to avoid.


It is funny though, since you can leech up to 90 and ask for information, and become just as skilled as someone who asks at level 20. Those who never ask, are the ones you need to avoid.

This basically

[Tenshibaby]

I I Abyssea-burned RDM to 90 and I dare say I could give most "Career, earned-my-level" RDMs a lesson or twelve about the job.
I'm sure most "Career, earned-my-level RDMs" have something to learn from someone who earned 90 by key-whoring and hasting. No, really, I believe all of you people who took the express elevator to 90 who then proclaim how awesome you are. No, really.

Similarly, I learned how to play QB by reading a book. Tebow, Manning, Brees... they're all doing it wrong. Why am I qualified to make this assessment? Because I read the book. Don't hate - by my own best assessment I am better than most NFL QB's.

[rog]

Similarly, I learned how to play QB by reading a book. Tebow, Manning, Brees... they're all doing it wrong. Why am I qualified to make this assessment? Because I read the book. Don't hate - by my own best assessment I am better than most NFL QB's.
lul, comparing ffxi to the NFL.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

lul, comparing ffxi to the NFL.

his comparison is valid though

[rog]

his comparison is valid though
No it's not. Playing in the NFL requires incredible amounts of skill. ffxi is about on par with pong.

There are plenty of things that can be done perfectly with exactly zero experience, if you take the time to research it. Ffxi is pretty close to being one of those things.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

No it's not. Playing in the NFL requires incredible amounts of skill. ffxi is about on par with pong.

There are plenty of things that can be done perfectly with exactly zero experience, if you take the time to research it. Ffxi is pretty close to being one of those things.

I cal BS on that until a proper test can be done, but for that we need one of each type of class of both PLed 90s and old 90s

Because the argument on both sides can only be backed up by referencing other things at this point.

[Greatguardian]

I'm sure most "Career, earned-my-level RDMs" have something to learn from someone who earned 90 by key-whoring and hasting. No, really, I believe all of you people who took the express elevator to 90 who then proclaim how awesome you are. No, really.

Similarly, I learned how to play QB by reading a book. Tebow, Manning, Brees... they're all doing it wrong. Why am I qualified to make this assessment? Because I read the book. Don't hate - by my own best assessment I am better than most NFL QB's.


I cal BS on that until a proper test can be done, but for that we need one of each type of class of both PLed 90s and old 90s

Because the argument on both sides can only be backed up by referencing other things at this point.

Okay. Find me a RDM who "earned their levels". I'm willing to bet I'm not only better geared, with a wider variety of situational macros, but also better at playing the job in practice in both solo and group situations. Using another BG poster doesn't count, since I can't think of a single one who gives a shit about "level earning".

[Kailea_Nagisa]

We are not on the same server, so how am I to find another RDM to compete against you, that and one example is not enough for a full test, like I said we need one of each type of job, and of both types.

[Greatguardian]

We are not on the same server, so how am I to find another RDM to compete against you, that and one example is not enough for a full test, like I said we need one of each type of job, and of both types.

Eh that's fine. If you can find a RDM on any server who actually wants to try and prove that they're "better than any leech", have them PM me on BG or FFXIAH (same username on all counts, I'm on Cerberus), and we can compare whatever. Gear sets? Macros? Solo wins?

How would you determine who is better? The same question applies to Tenshibaby as well. It is you, (Well, moreso Tenshi) who are claiming that these "Earned" RDMs are better than my RDM in the first place, so I will leave the standards up to you if you want.

[Tenshibaby]

LOL So gear + macros = skill

Your lack of merit as a 90RDM is being exposed the more you post.

And for the record, I could out-RDM you in Taru lvl1 RSE.

[cidbahamut]

Your lack of merit as a 90RDM is being exposed the more you post.


Not really. Neurotic twitches indicating spell times and corresponding muscle memory can't really be conveyed via a forum post. Neither can split-second decision making ability.

This whole argument is like watching two kids wail on each other with those foam noodles they have at swimming pools.

[Tenshibaby]

This whole argument is like watching two kids wail on each other with those foam noodles they have at swimming pools.
So then your participation is proof you didn't want to be left out.

Nobody with skill equates gear with skill. That myth has been debunked about a billion times on MMO's for who knows how long.

What you really have would be more like a kid playing Yugioh with lots of rare, expensive cards who beats the other 3 kids in his small little town and declares himself both skillful and among the very best worldwide. He doesn't understand the game well enough to recognize his own shortcomings.
I know these things to be true:
1. I play a pretty good RDM.
2. I am not among the best.
3. I would OWN Greatguardian and any other leech RDM.

[cidbahamut]

3. I would OWN Greatguardian and any other leech RDM.
On what grounds can you or anyone else make this claim?

[Greatguardian]

So then your participation is proof you didn't want to be left out.

Nobody with skill equates gear with skill. That myth has been debunked about a billion times on MMO's for who knows how long.

What you really have would be more like a kid playing Yugioh with lots of rare, expensive cards who beats the other 3 kids in his small little town and declares himself both skillful and among the very best worldwide. He doesn't understand the game well enough to recognize his own shortcomings.
I know these things to be true:
1. I play a pretty good RDM.
2. I am not among the best.
3. I would OWN Greatguardian and any other leech RDM.

Anyone with skill knows how to gear themselves and puts forth the effort to obtain nice gear. So really, skilled players do end up having nice gear over any sort of protracted timeframe. I could care less about showing off my RDM, but I am rather tired of hearing this crap from gimps who think they're hot shit because they "Exp'd the right way". If you think you're better than this leeched RDM, prove it.

What do you think you're better at? Do you think your spells are stronger because you EXP'd properly? Do you think you cast them faster? Your reaction times are quicker? Do you think you have better split-second decision making skills? A greater ability to run around in circles while mobs flail around unable to hit you? RDM is one of the more complex jobs in FFXI, and it's still *not hard at all*. Solo? Group? Healing? Crowd Control? Nuking? Pulling? Tanking? Not hard at all. The burden of proof is on you, being the one who claims to be better than any leech. Show that you are better than me, any way you want.

[Tenshibaby]

Tell you what. I'll get my brother an account, have him leech to 90RDM, and then have him claim to be better than most experienced RDM's, and see how much credibility he has. What's the difference between someone who leeched to 90 and someone who bought their 90RDM account off of eBay? Not much.

And no, Great, the burden of proof is on you because you made the outrageous claim. Did you have any 75's prior to Abyssea?

[Karbuncle]

Tell you what. I'll get my brother an account, have him leech to 90RDM, and then have him claim to be better than most experienced RDM's, and see how much credibility he has. What's the difference between someone who leeched to 90 and someone who bought their 90RDM account off of eBay? Not much.

And no, Great, the burden of proof is on you because you made the outrageous claim. Did you have any 75's prior to Abyssea?

You know, After just now reading this thread. I want you to know as a Third party viewed of this subject.

Evertyime GreatGuardian asks you, on your terms, To compare to him in your own way, You come back and reply with a sarcastic, nonsense, insulting, immature response that makes you look like a foolish person.

The only thing you have accomplished in all of your posts is making yourself look less and less Credible over time. You refuse to prove yourself by comparing your gear to his, Your skills to his, Anything. He's asking you to set the guidelines and you have refuse to put your money where your mouth is, So to speak. He's asking you to set the guidelines for him and you to be judged upon, and you continue to ignore his proposition and insult him relentlessly to the point i am shocked you have yet to be banned. as all of your posts this far can be viewed as inflammatory and immature.

It is a foolish conversation and your ignorance and arrogance is not helping in anyway. You are demeaning and insulting instead of producing a decent argument, in which you defend your opinion.

Playing a job 1-90 Through Classical EXP methods does not Guarantee a player to be of peak performance. This is proof positive by the fact that back in 2004-2005, FFXI players were some of the stupidest to ever grace the game. We've had bad players throughout the History of the game. Abyssea did not bring this, and Exping normally does not guarantee a intelligent player. A Lesser intelligent player would be bad at his job rather he leeched to 90, or haste/cure whored himself to 90 in a Normal Exp party. Stupid people will be Stupid, Smart people will be smart.

Those who care about the job can easily research best options on any of the multiple FFXI Websites, and Learn from trial and error to become better at their job, Regardless of how they leveled. Those who do not care will spend all their time bashing other because they feel they have some undeserved selfish self-proclaimed superiority over those who know the job well and did not exp the same way.

There will always be bad players, there will always be good players, But this is because of basic difference in human behavior, not because of how the player exp'd. Attempting to blame someone, or call them a bad player, because of their playstyle is immoral and ignorant. So again I will say, Stupid players will be stupid, Smart players will be smart, The way they leveled does not matter, its what they do after they hit 90 that shows strength or weakness.

[Olor]

off topic but GreatGuardian I love your ridiculously huge sig - is that custom or is there a website I can go to input my own data - not for a sig but just as a checklist for myself?

[Greatguardian]

There will always be bad players, there will always be good players, But this is because of basic difference in human behavior, not because of how the player exp'd. Attempting to blame someone, or call them a bad player, because of their playstyle is immoral and ignorant. So again I will say, Stupid players will be stupid, Smart players will be smart, The way they leveled does not matter, its what they do after they hit 90 that shows strength or weakness.

Thank you. This is what I have been trying to convey.

As far as Tenshi's last post is concerned, I had 2 75s before ToAU was released; 6 75s before WotG was released. I leveled RDM in Abyssea because I thought it might be an interesting tool to have, even though I was perfectly happy with my 6-job spread (MNK, NIN, SAM, WHM, PLD, COR; fairly diverse, with RNG, THF, and DRG on alts). If Abyssea leeching wasn't around, I probably would not have bothered leveling RDM, but it doesn't affect me much either way.

I'm not the best FFXI player in the world, but I'm good at the game. I understand game mechanics and FFXI math (which is mostly algebra and statistics anyways), and I both know how to gear myself and pursue the gear that I need. Any reasonably intelligent player can leech any job to 90 and be better at it than the majority of the game population. FFXI's not hard.

Edit: @Olor, Not that I know of. The original original original version was made by a JP group years and years ago. Someone else on here had a translated, much smaller version as his sig (Alcerin?). As a bit of a joke, Doublesbrian on BG (Phear on here I believe) made this huge, extended version for himself and I asked him to make me one too. I'm not sure if there's an unmarked template around. I think Tsukino_Kaji had one that he posted in a signature thread a few days ago.

[Olor]

Thanks. Guardian.

As for the whole skill/leech debate, I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks getting your levels outside Abyssea makes you a better player automatically. This is speaking as someone who still has never leveled inside Abyssea. I would be willing to bet money that the percentage of good to crappy players on any job remains the same regardless of where they got their exp. after each has had some time to learn the mechanics of the job at cap. It just stands to reason because what you do with a job at cap is generally not the same thing you do with a job while you're getting it to cap.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

No one really said that leveling outside of Abyssea automatically made you better, that was started by the proleechers out of no where. Leveling the old way 1-75, then entering Abyssea, allows a player to experience the job and learn its inner working properly, not rushed and inexperienced by just reading some guides. Also another thing that was put in the anti-Abyssea mouths, who in the hell said you needed to level 75-90 outside of Abyssea, that would be stupid. Abyssea was made so that people at level 75 could continue their leveling.

Does leveling outside Abyssea from 30-75 automatically make you a better player? No, but it does help.

I am guessing there are four sides to this and not two....

The "we dont want Abyssea at all"
the "we want Abyssea and outside to be more balanced" (me btw)
and the "We want it to stay the way it is
and last "we want the game to be nothing but Abyssea"

[Greatguardian]

No one really said that leveling outside of Abyssea automatically made you better, that was started by the proleechers out of no where. Leveling the old way 1-75, then entering Abyssea, allows a player to experience the job and learn its inner working properly, not rushed and inexperienced by just reading some guides. Also another thing that was put in the anti-Abyssea mouths, who in the hell said you needed to level 75-90 outside of Abyssea, that would be stupid. Abyssea was made so that people at level 75 could continue their leveling.

Does leveling outside Abyssea from 30-75 automatically make you a better player? No, but it does help.

While I appreciate that you're not jaded about the merits of overworld EXP, there were a huge number of people who said "Leveling outside of Abyssea is the only way to be good at the game". It was all over the "Raise the cap" thread. Thankfully, most of those posters have given up trying to push it now because it was so heartily rejected. But the "Proleech" (Which is really more Pro-do-whatever-you-want) group did not put the words in anyone's mouths.

Most of the people arguing "For leeching" don't give a shit about leeching. They're just tired of a key bunch of vocal morons who have been screaming for months now about the evils of Abyssea and how SE needs to close it off so everyone does things their way. If SE restricts Abyssea to 75+, not a single crap will be given by most of us. It is simply difficult to sit and read the absolute crap some people spew, especially when the Community Team does actively read this board. I, for one, don't want them thinking all NA players hate Abyssea.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

While I appreciate that you're not jaded about the merits of overworld EXP, there were a huge number of people who said "Leveling outside of Abyssea is the only way to be good at the game". It was all over the "Raise the cap" thread. Thankfully, most of those posters have given up trying to push it now because it was so heartily rejected. But the "Proleech" (Which is really more Pro-do-whatever-you-want) group did not put the words in anyone's mouths.

Most of the people arguing "For leeching" don't give a shit about leeching. They're just tired of a key bunch of vocal morons who have been screaming for months now about the evils of Abyssea and how SE needs to close it off so everyone does things their way. If SE restricts Abyssea to 75+, not a single crap will be given by most of us. It is simply difficult to sit and read the absolute crap some people spew, especially when the Community Team does actively read this board. I, for one, don't want them thinking all NA players hate Abyssea.

true I agree with you, I dont hate Abyssea, nor want it to go anywhere, but at the same time, I feel that in it's current state, it is hurting the game in a way. I want both Abyssea and everywhere else to be adjusted and balanced, so people want to do stuff everywhere, and not just in Abyssea.

[Olor]

As someone who just rerolled I have to agree that Abyssea has had a negative effect on most of the rest of the game, and for those of us who don't really have the Abyssea option, made it a bit harder and less fun to level. That said I've managed to scrape together some parties on the outside - but I can't emphasize how demoralizing it is to solo from 40-42 in the same amount of time it takes someone to get from 65-90. I mean, it makes me feel like I am standing still even though I am actually making pretty good time.

[Greatguardian]

You're really comparing getting a level 75 job to earning a 4-year degree?

FFXI must be way harder than I thought. It must require months of practice, training, and experience to be good at any individual job. fStr, pDif, dDex, Delay, dMND, dINT, WSC, fTP, how do they work!?

FFXI is an amalgam of basic algebra and statistics. It takes a high school education to know the game inside and out. It was never, ever difficult to play any job in the game. Leveling was never an accomplishment.

You know what was an accomplishment? Killing Odin with under 18 back when he was hard. Standing up to AV to run tests on his behavior and stats. Beating Pandemonium Warden. There are accomplishments in FFXI, real ones, and not very many people can lay claim to them. Those haven't been cheapened by the advent of Abyssea; no, they have been immortalized. No one else for the remainder of the game's life can lay claim to beating PW at 75 than the people who have already done so.

[Tenshibaby]

Since comparing something to anything other than itself seems to lose some of you, let me dumb it down:
You didn't "win" the debate over the appropriateness of easy leveling in Abyssea with any logical foundation. It is always popular to do things the easy way, just as doing things the right way is often unpopular. If enough lazy or incapable people shouted down those of us who know better, that doesn't mean you won.

Does it bug you when I deem the traditional way the "right way"? Good. I stand by it, and the current state of the game (and forums with 90 BRD asking which skills he needs) stand as my evidence.

[Greatguardian]

Since comparing something to anything other than itself seems to lose some of you, let me dumb it down:
You didn't "win" the debate over the appropriateness of easy leveling in Abyssea with any logical foundation. It is always popular to do things the easy way, just as doing things the right way is often unpopular. If enough lazy or incapable people shouted down those of us who know better, that doesn't mean you won.

Does it bug you when I deem the traditional way the "right way"? Good. I stand by it, and the current state of the game (and forums with 90 BRD asking which skills he needs) stand as my evidence.

What, exactly, has changed about the current state of the game again?

Let's compare to 2009, before Abyssea was announced:

Before: Most successful Endgame shells had active rosters of 20+ members. Formal linkshell schedules and events were needed by most shells in order to accomplish things, as the majority of Endgame content needed 12+ of them online and present. There is a HUGE gap in gear acquisition and event completion between HNM/Elite shells and Shout-tier shells.

After: Most successful Abyssea groups are comprised of 3-5 members. Formal schedules no longer exist as events require only 2 people to be present to make progress. A "Middle class" is formed in between the HNM/Elite shells and Shout-tier shells, typically calling themselves "Abyssea Shells". Casual players are now able to obtain the same armor as the Elite players, at a pace befitting their schedule.

Before: Any tard with an invite flag can get an invite to a Colibri party and get level 75. Even if they wear full AF and a Bronze Axe, Casual gamers are too concerned with being "nice" and "polite" to kick these leeches from the party. Even when sensible players would kick these leeches, someone would have a nervous breakdown in the party because of how "Mean" it was, and start flaming said person on Allak. Thus, the majority of players dealt with the shit-tier because it was less work.

After: Any tard with an invite flag can still get an invite to an Abyssea party and get level 90. Even if they wear full AF and a Bronze Axe, no one cares because they're actually contributing something to the group when they key chests, and they aren't using up 17% of the party's available slots because EXP is now conducted in Alliances. Has Abyssea stopped shitty players from getting 90? No. Has it made it easier? Not really, no. Has it made it less time consuming? Yes, it made all EXP less time consuming. What Abyssea did do, though, is lessen the impact that those shit-tier gimps have on everyone else in the party.

Before: About 95% of the FFXI population has an IQ less than potato.

After: About 95% of the FFXI population has an IQ less than potato.

Well shit.

[Tenshibaby]

Has it made it easier? Not really, no.
Of all the faults in your argument, this one stood out as the most succinct evidence that you really aren't willing to deal with reality when it doesn't support your position.

Have a nice day.

[Greatguardian]

EXP being easier now requires EXP being harder beforehand.

It wasn't. EXP after ToAU was a complete joke.

Edit: It's funny because you haven't made any real arguments or responses aside from "You're delusional", "It's obvious", and "You suck". Butthurt Maat Caps are Butthurt.

[Karbuncle]

EXP being easier now requires EXP being harder beforehand.

It wasn't. EXP after ToAU was a complete joke.

Edit: It's funny because you haven't made any real arguments or responses aside from "You're delusional", "It's obvious", and "You suck". Butthurt Maat Caps are Butthurt.

Its plainly obvious he is going to do nothing but respond with insults and act mad every time. You may as well just move on.

Arguing with his type will never result in anything good. He's set in his ways and you're set in yours. You'll just butt heads until one of you falls over. The one with the thicker skull will likely win... so.

[Rambus]

........ Your reaction times are quicker? Do you think you have better split-second decision making skills? A greater ability to run around in circles while mobs flail around unable to hit you? RDM is one of the more complex jobs in FFXI, and it's still *not hard at all*. Solo? Group? Healing? Crowd Control? Nuking? Pulling? Tanking? Not hard at all. The burden of proof is on you, being the one who claims to be better than any leech. Show that you are better than me, any way you want.

I like to say this, some "split-second decision making" is built on experience and obviously someone that leveled the old way would been in more parties and situations then someone that leeched. Now the thing is this that varies person to person, when people did level the old way "how much did you make yourself aware of your surroundings?". Someone could level the old way and have poor skills at knowing what is going on past them self, where as someone that leeched might be fully aware of thier surroundings. How much practice does someone need to skillshot a mob with stone I? Purposely imprtu skillchains? Sleeping mobs that agro someone while they just got up from RR? In other words can you take yourself out of "habit" and sleep that mob before it kills the weekend person? you need a lucky miss most likely but you get my point, I hope. Can you get rid of your "Habit" and not stun everything that agros you because you might be wasting your time casting stun on a thunder immune mob.

Some things are better learned though the old way of leveling. The question is however, how much is the said person aware while leveling? Did the person do whatever to skate by vs thinking about experiences and what they should do in the future for better judgment calls?

I will say this, there where people that where bad at playing even after taking a long time to level to 75, there was skilled people as well.

However, abyssea changed the ratio of skilled players vs bad, there is more poorly skilled players now because of the leeching where they are NOT FORCED to be aware of the surroundings. Some people might of learned to do good judgment calls in the past where now they wouldn’t of learned. Some people are quick learners and can pick it up regardless but the number of people that can do that is very few.

The only reason people have an easier time of adjusting to new jobs that leeched are people that can be aware or learned to be aware what has to be done ether from past MNO games, or playing FFXI and being 75 pre-abyssea and pre SMN burning. Take you with RDM, you might of learned about different situational macros on line or from friends that are good at RDM. You can even say I learned what NOT to do from my friends and leveled it to show how it should be played.

When you take a new player now, vs back when leveling was slow, there is a greater chance they would been better skilled at making judgment calls then someone that is new player now ( don’t mix that up with leveling a new job). The proof is forced experience, some people do not need it, but the number of that is very few. Greatguardian and Tenshibaby might both be good RDM but you can’t say person x is better then person y just based of how they leveled. I know for a fact most people that did leeching tend to be poor players, but the key word there is most. Greatguardian probably does not fit that "most".

[Tamoa]

I don't understand why or how some people believe that exping the old-fashioned way automatically makes you better at the job. If we continue using rdm as an example - exactly how does casting haste/refresh/cure in an endless cycle in "regular" exp parties, make you better than someone who leeches the job from 30 to ~75? I have lost count of how many shitty rdms that I have encountered in old-fashioned exp parties - the kind of players who don't pay attention, don't cast haste, start whining when the pld asks for refresh, and that try to skill up elemental magic by nuking instead of keeping people alive. And yet they managed to get to lvl 75 simply because rdm used to be deemed necessary for an exp party, and people put up with their shitty performance way too often. On top of this, they would refuse to take any advice and get all butthurt instead.

These rdms still suck at the job today.

It's not about how you lvld the job. It's about your attitude and ability/willingness to learn.

The difference between lvling in old-fashioned exp parties and leeching a job in abyssea, is the speed of which you level. Nothing else.

[Karbuncle]

I don't understand why or how some people believe that exping the old-fashioned way automatically makes you better at the job. If we continue using rdm as an example - exactly how does casting haste/refresh/cure in an endless cycle in "regular" exp parties, make you better than someone who leeches the job from 30 to ~75? I have lost count of how many shitty rdms that I have encountered in old-fashioned exp parties - the kind of players who don't pay attention, don't cast haste, start whining when the pld asks for refresh, and that try to skill up elemental magic by nuking instead of keeping people alive. And yet they managed to get to lvl 75 simply because rdm used to be deemed necessary for an exp party, and people put up with their shitty performance way too often. On top of this, they would refuse to take any advice and get all butthurt instead.

These rdms still suck at the job today.

It's not about how you lvld the job. It's about your attitude and ability/willingness to learn.

The difference between lvling in old-fashioned exp parties and leeching a job in abyssea, is the speed of which you level. Nothing else.

I made that argument, it was ignored, Yours will be too :(

[RaenRyong]

I can count the number of people I would consider above average I found levelling in exp parties back in the old day on one hand. Hell, I was ecstatic if I found someone who was satisfactory.. most of the time it was gimps, gimps, gimps.

[Tamoa]

I made that argument, it was ignored, Yours will be too :(

Oh I know :(
Just felt the need to state my opinion. Too many people make it sound like there weren't any stupid/gimp players around before abyssea because everyone had to spend hours and hours on exping their jobs - when in fact there were plenty of them!

[hiko]

Does it bug you when I deem the traditional way the "right way"? Good. I stand by it, and the current state of the game (and forums with 90 BRD asking which skills he needs) stand as my evidence.
a leeched brd asking advice will be better than someone who has been brd for years and still refuse to double march!

[Eeek]

Aside from the first post, all the posts on this page are right on. <3

I just dinged RDM90 yesterday, and although I can't say I learned how to play RDM in an event setting, I can say that I'm a champion at curing and hasting all the DDs in an exp alliance. Yeah, I leveled from 49-90 in a total of 3 exp alliances over the course of a few days, but nothing I did even remotely approached this leeching that so many people cry about. Lazy people are easy to kick, and anyone who does whatever they can to be useful is awesome.

Now for the fun part: more research into RDM, proper gearing, and writing proper macros! How many of people who cry about Abyssea leeching even bothered to do this on the jobs they leveled the 'real' way?

Oh. They still wear full Aurore or Teal.

Point taken.

[Masekase]

I dont see the harm in leeching to be honest. Most jobs have similarities you dont need to have grind the job to figure out how to play it.

ie. I have rdm 75 i know that i could pick up whm at 75 and i would no how to play it.

We have all been in parties we are not blind we can see how other jobs work.

[cidbahamut]

I don't understand why or how some people believe that exping the old-fashioned way automatically makes you better at the job. If we continue using rdm as an example - exactly how does casting haste/refresh/cure in an endless cycle in "regular" exp parties, make you better than someone who leeches the job from 30 to ~75? I have lost count of how many shitty rdms that I have encountered in old-fashioned exp parties - the kind of players who don't pay attention, don't cast haste, start whining when the pld asks for refresh, and that try to skill up elemental magic by nuking instead of keeping people alive. And yet they managed to get to lvl 75 simply because rdm used to be deemed necessary for an exp party, and people put up with their shitty performance way too often. On top of this, they would refuse to take any advice and get all butthurt instead.

These rdms still suck at the job today.

It's not about how you lvld the job. It's about your attitude and ability/willingness to learn.

The difference between lvling in old-fashioned exp parties and leeching a job in abyssea, is the speed of which you level. Nothing else.

As a Red Mage I'm gonna take issue with this. If you're a RDM and all you do in an exp party is haste/cure/refresh, then you're probably slacking or fighting little pink birds.

I went from 1 to 72 in exp parties and tried to make sure I used every one of them as a learning experience. You don't learn how to not freeze in a panic situation by leeching. No, taking a few exp parties where things go haywire is much better for learning how to think on the fly so you know when to turn on chainspell and immobilize everything to cover your party's retreat. Yes it can all be learned after you hit the level cap, but there are merits to leveling at a slower pace to give yourself more exposure to the job. The more time you spend with the job the better you can become at it.

At the end of the day it boils down to personal preference. Although I still subscribe to the idea that forcing bad players to level slowly provides more opportunities for them to receive the kick in the head they require.

[Masekase]

As a Red Mage I'm gonna take issue with this. If you're a RDM and all you do in an exp party is haste/cure/refresh, then you're probably slacking or fighting little pink birds.

I went from 1 to 72 in exp parties and tried to make sure I used every one of them as a learning experience. You don't learn how to not freeze in a panic situation by leeching. No, taking a few exp parties where things go haywire is much better for learning how to think on the fly so you know when to turn on chainspell and immobilize everything to cover your party's retreat. Yes it can all be learned after you hit the level cap, but there are merits to leveling at a slower pace to give yourself more exposure to the job. The more time you spend with the job the better you can become at it.

At the end of the day it boils down to personal preference. Although I still subscribe to the idea that forcing bad players to level slowly provides more opportunities for them to receive the kick in the head they require.

Nah you could of learned that on any other job barring chainspell.

[cidbahamut]

Nah you could of learned that on any other job barring chainspell.

You're assuming everyone has more than one job leveled, aren't you?

[Tenshibaby]

I made that argument, it was ignored, Yours will be too :(

For a reason.


a leeched brd asking advice will be better than someone who has been brd for years and still refuse to double march!

Any good BRD knows not to blindly feed haste-whores. Then again, this is evidence that people don't understand the jobs anymore. Here's a clue: BRD doesn't involve making decisions like "Raise pressure or lower pressure?" or involve macroed-double-march-and-afk cycling.

[Masekase]

You're assuming everyone has more than one job leveled, aren't you?

Yes most people have no need to assume

[Eeek]

For a reason.



Any good BRD knows not to blindly feed haste-whores. Then again, this is evidence that people don't understand the jobs anymore.

Right on! Why would any support job want their DDs to hit faster, when instead, they could hit harder. Rawr! Minuets and STR etudes for everyone, amirite?

[Tenshibaby]

[QUOTE=Eeek;59382]Right on! Why would any support job want their DDs to hit faster, when instead, they could hit harder. Rawr! Minuets and STR etudes for everyone, amirite?
We get it - you like missing faster for less damage. You probably think it makes Provoke faster and Utsusemi cast faster. In other words, you think BRD basically needs about 6 songs in the entire game. Let me guess: Abyssea-leveled your jobs too?

I am a REAL BRD, WHM, RDM, etc. and I can tell you if I let melees dictate what spells to cast, our leveling would have been less efficient.

[Eeek]

[QUOTE=Karbuncle;59167]

We get it - you like missing faster for less damage. You probably think it makes Provoke faster and Utsusemi cast faster. In other words, you think BRD basically needs about 6 songs in the entire game. Let me guess: Abyssea-leveled your jobs too?

I am a REAL BRD, WHM, RDM, etc. and I can tell you if I let melees dictate what spells to cast, our leveling would have been less efficient.

/giggle

Relevant FFXIAH Link: I wear Maat's Cap and Bird Whistle with my pinky out! (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Gilgamesh/Tenshibaby)

[cidbahamut]

We get it - you like missing faster for less damage.

If by "missing" you mean "hitting", and by "less damage" you mean "more cumulative damage", then yes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You could skip the entire Minne and probably Peaon line of songs on Bard and no one would really care all that much (Cannonball isn't a reason).

[Eeek]

Nah, he's probably just excessively bitter about Abyssea leveling. S/he has a Maat's Cap (and the silly gear selections common amongst those with the Cap), and I'm thinking that they did a large part of that exping before Abyssea and the level cap increase.

To be fair, I'd probably be bitter myself.

[Tenshibaby]

You're more than welcome to PM me whatever you said. I never saw it. All I saw was your pathetic attempts at mocking my last-minute gear for grabbing an NM on BST. Congrats, maybe they will make detective movies based on your life.

Actually, the reasons I am against Abyssea leeching go far beyond cheapening the Maat's cap, although PL and SMN burn did their fair share prior to Abyssea. It has more to do with the fact that I guess I am one of the few old school players who bothered to learn their job. I get tired of seeing the same people /sh in Jeuno for people to help them leech. I get tired of seeing noobs who don't have the spells for their jobs, who don't know SATA doesn't have to stack after 60, who think Haste reduces weakened time, and who come on forums to defend leeching. There is a plethora of players at 90 who don't know their job. It used to be most 75's knew their jobs pretty well, aside from the BRD's who got invited just because of their jobs, or the WHM's that had a PL covering their butts until ~65.

[Eeek]

Rose-colored glasses.

Do we really need to copy-paste the whole 'noobs have always existed' argument yet again?

People have been begging in all the cities since FFXI started. Fact.

Noobs have always been missing critical spells. In fact, noobs are missing critical spells right now. When the servers finally go down, noobs will be there, missing critical spells. Fact.

Lots of THFs misunderstand how SA/TA work. Fact.

A sizable number of players have never and will never understand how Haste works. Fact.

Most 75s, back in the day, knew how to play their jobs. Fact? Ahahahahahahahahahaahahahano.

There were a plethora of players who didn't know their jobs well at every single level cap since 2002. Fact.

[cidbahamut]

There will always be noobs. Nothing will change that. People are idiots but that won't stop them from playing and enjoying the game. There are terrible players who leech and terrible players who level via traditional means. Similarly, there are good players who leech and good players who level via traditional means.

You can't fix stupid, the best you can hope for is to shun it and make sure its flawed ideas don't corrupt other players.

[Tenshibaby]

So your contention is that the percentage of capped noobs is essentially the same? How can you justify that, being that the bar has been set so low now to be capped? It has no logical basis. I hate to de-bunk the myths some of you like to tell yourselves to justify taking the easy route, but that's simply common sense. And you guys think I throw the word "delusional" around just to engage in name-calling? It fits the definition.

[Tenshibaby]

There will always be noobs. Nothing will change that. People are idiots but that won't stop them from playing and enjoying the game. There are terrible players who leech and terrible players who level via traditional means. Similarly, there are good players who leech and good players who level via traditional means.

You can't fix stupid, the best you can hope for is to shun it and make sure its flawed ideas don't corrupt other players.
I am shunning it here and look at all the haters! lol
The noobs were easier to identify when they weren't given a welcome package when purchasing FF11 "Welcome to Vana'diel! Here's your 90 and btw, we went ahead and gave you all your XBox live achievements so you don't feel left out. We're confident after a few hours of skilling up you'll be better than the majority of veterans."

[cidbahamut]

No, you're raving about how a method of gaining exp is "Oh noes teh most terribul thing evar".

[Tamoa]

We get it - you like missing faster for less damage. You probably think it makes Provoke faster and Utsusemi cast faster. In other words, you think BRD basically needs about 6 songs in the entire game. Let me guess: Abyssea-leveled your jobs too?

I am a REAL BRD, WHM, RDM, etc. and I can tell you if I let melees dictate what spells to cast, our leveling would have been less efficient.


All I'm seeing is someone who's butthurt because their Maat's Cap doesn't mean jack shit anymore.

[Tenshibaby]

All I'm seeing is someone who's butthurt because their Maat's Cap doesn't mean jack shit anymore.

My Maat's cap was earned before Abyssea, so it is far more meaningful than your 10 90's you seem so proud of. :-)

[Eeek]

I am shunning it here and look at all the haters! lol
The noobs were easier to identify when they weren't given a welcome package when purchasing FF11 "Welcome to Vana'diel! Here's your 90 and btw, we went ahead and gave you all your XBox live achievements so you don't feel left out. We're confident after a few hours of skilling up you'll be better than the majority of veterans."

Oh come on! This isn't even close to reality and you know it. You're flailing.

[Tamoa]

My Maat's cap was earned before Abyssea, so it is far more meaningful than your 10 90's you seem so proud of. :-)

So the fact that you spent countless of hours exping all those jobs, automatically makes you a better player than someone who has leeched 1 or more jobs in abyssea? Or someone that's smn burned a job? Or God forbid - anyone that's ever had a PL?

As for me, I never wanted Maat's Cap, there are certain jobs I cannot stand playing or that I simply have no interest in playing. Hence my 10 90s only. :-)

You should do yourself a favour and take a long break from the game, you are so bitter about your Maat's Cap and the fact that exping has become easier, it can't possibly be good for your mental health.

[Olor]

I think that not making people depend on fools while grinding up slow painful exp. is good - who cares how many 90s the fools have? You don't have to depend on them anymore.

I don't think that leeches are the problem. What IS a problem is people who can't do Abyssea for whatever reason are fairly screwed. I am speaking from experience here. Trying to find a party outside Abyssea sucks.

[Masekase]

You're more than welcome to PM me whatever you said. I never saw it. All I saw was your pathetic attempts at mocking my last-minute gear for grabbing an NM on BST. Congrats, maybe they will make detective movies based on your life.

Actually, the reasons I am against Abyssea leeching go far beyond cheapening the Maat's cap, although PL and SMN burn did their fair share prior to Abyssea. It has more to do with the fact that I guess I am one of the few old school players who bothered to learn their job. I get tired of seeing the same people /sh in Jeuno for people to help them leech. I get tired of seeing noobs who don't have the spells for their jobs, who don't know SATA doesn't have to stack after 60, who think Haste reduces weakened time, and who come on forums to defend leeching. There is a plethora of players at 90 who don't know their job. It used to be most 75's knew their jobs pretty well, aside from the BRD's who got invited just because of their jobs, or the WHM's that had a PL covering their butts until ~65.

Lmao alot of thfs didnt know how sata worked long before even level sync was introduced. Same with other dd was my biggest headache setting sata up when levling thf sub up pre level sync.

All that other stuff was there way before abyssea was bird parties and smn burn. Before that was axe,fist and mana burn parties

[Tenshibaby]

I don't think that leeches are the problem. What IS a problem is people who can't do Abyssea for whatever reason are fairly screwed. I am speaking from experience here. Trying to find a party outside Abyssea sucks.
If there were no easy mode, you wouldn't have trouble finding non-Abyssea xp parties. This is why I hope SE blocks any xp gain past 90 in Abyssea. I can see making the path more streamlined for 75+, but SE made a big mistake allowing people to gain xp at lower levels. THAT is a HUGE reason people can't find xp parties outside Abyssea (and I sympathize, as I refuse to leech my jobs there and rely on soloing or rare xp parties).

The whole argument is pointless anyway. It's like being trapped on an island of kids who scoff at the idea that they should eat vegetables before dessert.

[ringthree]

I'm 90 now so how do I play my job?


Sad state the game has sunken to.

Because no one sucked at their jobs before...

[Greatguardian]

The point at which the guy brought up Bards being gimp for fulltiming Marches really pretty much solidified for me that he's basically your stereotypical Pre-Abyssea Maat's Cap. Tons of jobs, doesn't know a damn thing about game mechanics or gear.

Protip: 99.99999% of the time, a single March will add significantly more damage than any other bard song. The whole "Haste = Miss Faster" bullshit should have died in 2006.

[Olor]

If there were no easy mode, you wouldn't have trouble finding non-Abyssea xp parties. This is why I hope SE blocks any xp gain past 90 in Abyssea. I can see making the path more streamlined for 75+, but SE made a big mistake allowing people to gain xp at lower levels. THAT is a HUGE reason people can't find xp parties outside Abyssea (and I sympathize, as I refuse to leech my jobs there and rely on soloing or rare xp parties).



Hmmm, I think they just need to increase the rewards for not leeching Abyssea - like add better drops to BCNMs, make crystals somehow more useful, exp more comparable - I dunno - I am more in favour of buffing outside areas than nerfing Abyssea.

[Rambus]

Thought my post would stop the generalizing.

Leveling the old way does not atomically a better player so quit sounding like your views are based on that. Leeching a job does not atomically mean you will always suck at it.

HOWEVER! The leeching does mean more people will be gimp/ low performing at jobs then in the past, but like I explained in my post that does not hold true for EVERYONE! People are also lazier while leveing in abyssea, I do try to get said people kicked if they do not change. ( I try not to be elitist but you need to be at lest trying to be productive)


..... Greatguardian probably does not fit that "most".

can click that to go to my post ( for people that missed it)

[Tamoa]

When the level cap was first raised, and we didn't know how abyssea worked, I wanted to cry at the thought of having to exp my 7 75s. Having to put up with gimp ass DDs, drks fulltiming souleater, people leaving the party with 1 minute notice, no brds seeking omg!, shitty healers, 1 or even 2 party members afking unannounced, and competing for exp camps and mobs for a few k exp per hour - it was the last thing I wanted to go through again.

The first week or so, that's exactly what happened too. Every damn possible exp camp was full to the max and then some. Ffs I went to PROMYVION for exp and had to compete for mobs there too!!!

Thank you SE, for abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

When the level cap was first raised, and we didn't know how abyssea worked, I wanted to cry at the thought of having to exp my 7 75s. Having to put up with gimp ass DDs, drks fulltiming souleater, people leaving the party with 1 minute notice, no brds seeking omg!, shitty healers, 1 or even 2 party members afking unannounced, and competing for exp camps and mobs - it was the last thing I wanted to go through again.

The first week or so, that's exactly what happened too. Every damn possible exp camp was full to the max and then some. Ffs I went to PROMYVION for exp and had to compete for mobs there too!!!

Thank you SE, for abyssea.

Good god, this. I took 3 of my jobs to 80 before the community figured out the whole Abyssea EXP thing and I just wanted to crawl into a corner for a few weeks before even thinking about doing the others. It didn't take any more skill than Abyssea exp, it was just so god damned repetitive. After getting 600~ish merits in the past, there was no way in hell I wanted to see a pink bird again.

[RaenRyong]

I am a REAL BRD, WHM, RDM, etc. and I can tell you if I let melees dictate what spells to cast, our leveling would have been less efficient.

If you're a REAL player I'd rather have some fake ones. Stop being terribad.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/56966-The-gimp-confused-wtf-player-thread-III

OMG, some players exping the REAL way in 2008 were bad? Holy crap.

EDIT: you know what? let's just link images from the first page of the thread. There are about 400 pages total before Abyssea, by the way.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h203/Pardama/strfulltimesam2.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h203/Pardama/strfulltimesam1.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8360/lolpldeb1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/BahaFFXI/wutkraken.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/toyotomi/img_20080411_143056.png

http://i26.tinypic.com/296kvox.jpg

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1015/cloudientpldff2.png

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/Mdgtmien/img_20080412_220520.png

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/a5speedromance/img_20080412_224550.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x195/bennyffxi/gimp.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/tormentormike/img_20080413_085941.png

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/tormentormike/img_20080413_085930.png

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/tormentormike/img_20080413_085906.png

Over the top? Maybe. But you have to realise you have rose-tinted glasses!

[rog]

You know what was an accomplishment? Killing Odin with under 18 back when he was hard. Standing up to AV to run tests on his behavior and stats. Beating Pandemonium Warden. There are accomplishments in FFXI, real ones, and not very many people can lay claim to them. Those haven't been cheapened by the advent of Abyssea; no, they have been immortalized. No one else for the remainder of the game's life can lay claim to beating PW at 75 than the people who have already done so.
Level syncing to 75 works.

[Mrbeansman]

Since comparing something to anything other than itself seems to lose some of you, let me dumb it down:
You didn't "win" the debate over the appropriateness of easy leveling in Abyssea with any logical foundation. It is always popular to do things the easy way, just as doing things the right way is often unpopular. If enough lazy or incapable people shouted down those of us who know better, that doesn't mean you won.

Does it bug you when I deem the traditional way the "right way"? Good. I stand by it, and the current state of the game (and forums with 90 BRD asking which skills he needs) stand as my evidence.

Right and wrong are different for different people. What your camp doesn't realize is that your "right way" of leveling is still intact so you have no right to take ours away.

[Direwolfe]

You all could try not being elitist snubs and just help the 90 Brd by answering his question and moving on. It seems all he did was help stir up drama for the players that give a crap about leeching, which I find the most enjoyable part of this topic. Funny thing is that all the people complaining about leeching have most likely leeched themselves.

[Bubeeky]

Abyssea did not create the problem of leeching/level syncing/powerleveling to max level...it's always been there. As a career WHM, I've had to oppose this my whole 8 years playing, violently sometimes, because it's always been the prime reason for crappy players. Having said that, the problem is that Abyssea has made it easier and harder to oppose it. The game is doing the powerleveling now, so no one needs the approval/assistance of others.

I can't fault anyone for leeching to 90 these days though. When I was first leveling whm, it was an option to powerlevel or not. These days, with the lack of regular non-abyssea pt's, it's not an option...you have to leech sometimes if you want to get past 40 or 50.

I do hope that people try to get levels the old way (I'm not going to say right, because right for one person isn't necessarily right for another) because leveling the old way is what honed my instinct as a whm to allow me to be as valuable as I am to my pt's and events today. I know my job inside and out, and that is 100% from grinding for 75 levels and failing a lot of times...quite often in stupid ways lol, but if I hadn't had that experience, I wouldn't know how to fix it or get past it in Abyssea.

PS. Good luck to the OP in skilling up BRD...you've chosen a difficult job to master, and I can't say that I've ever tried it, so totally....good luck, keep asking questions and you'll be great :)

[Juxtaposition]

You guys are arguing with the type of terrible player who still manages not to know how FFXI works. "Who needs haste on my waist when I can have TWELVE Accuracy and FOUR Attack!? Brutal Earring just can't compare to THREE Accuracy! TPing in CHR gear because BSTs need CHR! Don't roll with that CHEATING stuff from Abyssea or Trial of the Magians, not REAL FFXI, you know! I KNOW how to play PLD because I LEVELED IT 1-75 the REAL WAY and the REAL WAY to play PLD is with JSE like earrings that give -30% Spell Interrupt when I have less than 25% HP BECAUSE WHEN I PLAY PLD MY HP DROPS THAT LOW V. FREQUENTLY. THIS. IS. FFXI!!!!!"

Also, Powerdoll would like to thank you for buying a Vermin Earring, darn thing just would not sell for six months!

Enhances "Plantoid Killer" effect: Worth 150,000 gil.

[Rambus]

If you're a REAL player I'd rather have some fake ones. Stop being terribad.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/56966-The-gimp-confused-wtf-player-thread-III

OMG, some players exping the REAL way in 2008 were bad? Holy crap.

EDIT: you know what? let's just link images from the first page of the thread. There are about 400 pages total before Abyssea, by the way.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h203/Pardama/strfulltimesam2.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h203/Pardama/strfulltimesam1.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8360/lolpldeb1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/BahaFFXI/wutkraken.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/toyotomi/img_20080411_143056.png

http://i26.tinypic.com/296kvox.jpg

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1015/cloudientpldff2.png

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/Mdgtmien/img_20080412_220520.png

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/a5speedromance/img_20080412_224550.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x195/bennyffxi/gimp.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/tormentormike/img_20080413_085941.png

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/tormentormike/img_20080413_085930.png

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a331/tormentormike/img_20080413_085906.png

Over the top? Maybe. But you have to realise you have rose-tinted glasses!

Oh using a torque tp tp in that gives you skill is bad???
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h203/Pardama/strfulltimesam1.jpg

Anyways if I SS every bad player since abyssea came out to 5 years from now i bet you it would be 800 pages worth of SS.

2 days ago i seen TWO blms in an abyssea party that could not get azure kills so my friend returning end up timing out. it was a good pt before then, i wish i had the time to change to blu for him ><

I seen a WHM full timing 5/5 emp NQ gear while having say macros of na spells

I seen MP gear PLDs, level 10 scythe drks, mp gear blms, full time nuking in dark staff and so on.

yes there was bad players in the past, there be bad players now, but abyssea makes that amount worse and the gimp "factor" worse.

I never had someone have the audacity y to bring a level 10 scythe to a pt at 75 but now it is ok with abyssea.

[RaenRyong]

Oh using a torque tp tp in that gives you skill is bad???

Way to miss the rest of it.


Anyways if I SS every bad player since abyssea came out to 5 years from now i bet you it would be 800 pages worth of SS.

No, it keeps it the same. Gimps will be gimps.

And get a Gandiva!

[Rambus]

Way to miss the rest of it.



No, it keeps it the same. Gimps will be gimps.

And get a Gandiva!

keeps it the same? abyssea made more gimps now vs past -.- I gave some examples.

there are different levels of "gimp" being picky about someone's tp set =/= gear so horrid you cannot get the job done ( like my comment about 2 blm that was in one of my abyssea exp pt)

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I'm 90 now so how do I play my job?


Sad state the game has sunken to.Please, this is nothing new. It was a constant in pre-TAU times even.

[Karbuncle]

keeps it the same? abyssea made more gimps now vs past -.- I gave some examples.

there are different levels of "gimp" being picky about someone's tp set =/= gear so horrid you cannot get the job done ( like my comment about 2 blm that was in one of my abyssea exp pt)

I Don't know about you, But I'm thankful gimps today are at least in some small way better than gimps of yesteryear.

At least Full perle offers some minimum baseline of haste, as opposed to the GD Askar head-Wearing, Askar-hand-Wearing-etc gimps that they were before.

Abyssea did not create more gimps, You only see more gimps because instead of leveling with 6 people, You're leveling with 18, your forced interaction with morons has just tripled. as with obviously your "perceptions" on how many gimp people there are now.

The same goes for Endgame, IN Dynamis it was secluded, In Salvage? Secluded. So the only out-side interaction you got with non-LS was in King Camps, Where you saw your fair share of gimps. Abyssea is one big open event, You're bound to interact with more gimps than old-style events, cause old-style events were usually contained to LS's.

Theres no higher number of gimps than there used to be, we're just forced to interact with more of them while Exping or your daily activities. again, The amount of gimps are the same, You just notice/see more because of how the playstyle has changed, 18 man alliance-exp and non-Exclusive end-game zones.

[Glamdring]

simple, you need to cap 'em all. There are times you want Horde to be max radius, hope you have a harp. there are times you want a slightly higher chance of beating a resist, u want a horn. no matter what, you want capped singing since it works with both. 'nuff said.

[Rambus]

I Don't know about you, But I'm thankful gimps today are at least in some small way better than gimps of yesteryear.

At least Full perle offers some minimum baseline of haste, as opposed to the GD Askar head-Wearing, Askar-hand-Wearing-etc gimps that they were before.

Abyssea did not create more gimps, You only see more gimps because instead of leveling with 6 people, You're leveling with 18, your forced interaction with morons has just tripled. as with obviously your "perceptions" on how many gimp people there are now.

The same goes for Endgame, IN Dynamis it was secluded, In Salvage? Secluded. So the only out-side interaction you got with non-LS was in King Camps, Where you saw your fair share of gimps. Abyssea is one big open event, You're bound to interact with more gimps than old-style events, cause old-style events were usually contained to LS's.

Theres no higher number of gimps than there used to be, we're just forced to interact with more of them while Exping or your daily activities. again, The amount of gimps are the same, You just notice/see more because of how the playstyle has changed, 18 man alliance-exp and non-Exclusive end-game zones.


what are you talking about? I do not care if people use Askar head or being picky on a tp set. (well I do kinda but I am talking about level of gimp lower then that) what I do care about is people being geared enough to get the job done. my abyssea party had 2 blms using mp gear and full time dark staff.

why? because its easy to leech and easy to get to 90 not learning your job. Then when you get a situation where people depend on you they fall short. gimps today are worse then the gimps last year, again this statment makes me feel you did not read what I have to say.

WHM using full NQ emp gear ( like your comment on cour gear that would been better) AND having NA say macros.
BLM not even having staffs, BLM not knowing how to play thier job, BLM not able to get azure kills because they fulltime darkstaff.

BLU that full time mage gear(teal) that melee.

a drk using level 10 scythe and mp/int gear.

WHM that melee in mage gear/crappy wand having 100 or less MP while having outside pt WHMs do his job.

PLD meleeing in exp with that acc down sword ( looks like chainsaw)

THF fulltiming haste gear ( ws in haste gear)
THF that fulltimes ws gear.

I have not seen people gear this horrible in the past.

and yes abyssea IS to blame. I talked to people before. some said "I am leveling this job just so i can have something to spend merits on, I know I am not good at it"

I talked to other BLM with not having staffs they answered was ill get them later or I was rushed here .

people get exp way too fast. you get too much exp while farming for gear. because of the fast exp while farming gear people level jobs for the sake of doing so to spend merits they get later while farming for gear.

[Karbuncle]

what are you talking about? I do not care if people use Askar head or being picky on a tp set. (well I do kinda but I am talking about level of gimp lower then that) what I do care about is people being geared enough to get the job done. my abyssea party had 2 blms using mp gear and full time dark staff.

why? because its easy to leech and easy to get to 90 not learning your job. Then when you get a situation where people depend on you they fall short. gimps today are worse then the gimps last year, again this statment makes me feel you did not read what I have to say.

WHM using full NQ emp gear ( like your comment on cour gear that would been better) AND having NA say macros.
BLM not even having staffs, BLM not knowing how to play thier job, BLM not able to get azure kills because they fulltime darkstaff.

BLU that full time mage gear(teal) that melee.

a drk using level 10 scythe and mp/int gear.

WHM that melee in mage gear/crappy wand having 100 or less MP while having outside pt WHMs do his job.

PLD meleeing in exp with that acc down sword ( looks like chainsaw)

THF fulltiming haste gear ( ws in haste gear)
THF that fulltimes ws gear.

I have not seen people gear this horrible in the past.

and yes abyssea IS to blame. I talked to people before. some said "I am leveling this job just so i can have something to spend merits on, I know I am not good at it"

I talked to other BLM with not having staffs they answered was ill get them later or I was rushed here .

people get exp way too fast. you get too much exp while farming for gear. because of the fast exp while farming gear people level jobs for the sake of doing so to spend merits they get later while farming for gear.

You have very selective reading if you seriously took offense to anything i said.

People who leech their job to 90 Generally level a job because they're interested in it. Some people will Learn the job, Some won't. This hasn't changed because of Abyssea.

My point was, The only reason it appears like there are more gimps today, is because we are forced to interact with more people than we were pre-abyssea.

6 man parties are now 18 man.
Events are no longer "Secluded" (Reserved area, etc). They're open to anyone.
etc.

This is exactly what happened when Campaign came out. people were like "HUR HUR CAMPAIGN GIMPS EVERYWHERE EXP SO EASY HUR HUR". Every time time some new fad comes out that makes something a little easier, people will always try to blame it for the gimps in the game. It hasn't increased any gimps, Its simply increases our forced interaction with them. Campaign was another "Open" system anyone could join. so instead of being grounded by 18 LS mates you know, You're suruonded by 18 random people, Chances of gimps are higher.

[Rambus]

You have very selective reading if you seriously took offense to anything i said.

I am not offended , i am glad there is cour gear.

I would be thankful if people used it right though ( like blu that gets more then one set)

I know there was gimps in the past, there is gimps now, i was just saying I am worse off with the gimps now then in the past because people a lot of times gear so horrid now they cannot get anything done.

the only time i was a bit picky on gearsets in the past was for nyzul, if you had a dark or blue that did not properly gear there was a good chance you would not make those 5 floors.

[Fiarlia]

I know there was gimps in the past, there is gimps now, i was just saying I am worse off with the gimps now then in the past because people a lot of times gear so horrid now they cannot get anything done.

I have to disagree with this, as a matter of fact, I actually see less gimps now than I used to before Abyssea. Don't get me wrong, they still exist, and there's still plenty of them.

Though to be fair, one of the main reasons I see less of them now is because I have a group of friends I always (and exclusively) do stuff with, either that or I solo. I have little interaction with the majority of the gimps that have made the trek to level 90. I don't join any shout groups for NM's, events or even exp. My LS does weekly "leech" pt's on Sundays, and we simply rotate who is killing and who is leeching, and we only let LS members join.

Now, I'm well aware that this creates somewhat of a biased point of view, since I exclude the gimps and the idiots from my personal FFXI experience.

But this does bring up a separate point; if you, or anyone else, is having such a hard time with gimps, then why are you bothering to play with them? It's obviously possible, as I have done it, everyone else in my LS has done it, and I'm quite sure it would be folly to say that we're the only group who can accomplish such a feat. The answer is much more simple than most people make it out to be: stop partying with the people you don't want to. Make friends, join a group. Not only will your experience be much more fun, but you're much more likely to get a bunch more things done in a much more efficient manner (which in turn is likely to make the game more fun as well). If you think it'd be hard to get into a group, since these groups are likely to not joining shout group as well, it's not that hard to walk up to people you see successfully and skillfully killing an NM that your typical gimps can't and send a /tell. There's also countless LS's that have websites, and even forums that you could simply ask who might be someone to talk to.

Now that we've established that it's entirely possible to cut the gimps almost completely out of your personal gaming picture, the next point I want to mention is that if these gimps to get to 90 (99)... so what? While it can be annoying to see a group take 30 minutes to kill something as trivial as most of the Iron Giants, there's still very little direct interaction. They can quest away their seals for AF3+1, never attempt +2 for all I care, they're still (in general, though exceptions certainly do exist) better geared than they used to be. And they are able to get stuff done for themselves. While I consider myself a well above average player, I don't hold on to some sort of feeling that the lesser skilled deserve nothing. In fact, it's healthy for the game as a whole if they can do stuff, whether it's the simple NM's, leveling all jobs to 90, questing, attempting (and failing) at harder NM's, capping merits, shouting for mercs to beat Rani for them, whatever, if their interest is maintained in the game, it's likely to last longer. So let the gimps have their fun, and let them get far better gear than they used to be able to (admit it, despite the fact that full perle is lols, it's much better than the hodgepodge of shit we used to see). The more subscribers the better, and besides, they have zero impact on me, aside from occasionally making my group wait a bit longer to pop an NM, because that's the way I choose to play - without the gimps.

And this is not an argument supporting the tired old "it's their $12.95." I'm not at all arguing that they don't suck, because they do, I'm only saying that it only matters if you let it.

[Krystal]

you leeched a job to 90? you FAIL

[Rambus]

I have to disagree with this, as a matter of fact, I actually see less gimps now than I used to before Abyssea. Don't get me wrong, they still exist, and there's still plenty of them.

Though to be fair, one of the main reasons I see less of them now is because I have a group of friends I always (and exclusively) do stuff with, either that or I solo. I have little interaction with the majority of the gimps that have made the trek to level 90. I don't join any shout groups for NM's, events or even exp. My LS does weekly "leech" pt's on Sundays, and we simply rotate who is killing and who is leeching, and we only let LS members join.

Now, I'm well aware that this creates somewhat of a biased point of view, since I exclude the gimps and the idiots from my personal FFXI experience.

But this does bring up a separate point; if you, or anyone else, is having such a hard time with gimps, then why are you bothering to play with them? It's obviously possible, as I have done it, everyone else in my LS has done it, and I'm quite sure it would be folly to say that we're the only group who can accomplish such a feat. The answer is much more simple than most people make it out to be: stop partying with the people you don't want to. Make friends, join a group. Not only will your experience be much more fun, but you're much more likely to get a bunch more things done in a much more efficient manner (which in turn is likely to make the game more fun as well). If you think it'd be hard to get into a group, since these groups are likely to not joining shout group as well, it's not that hard to walk up to people you see successfully and skillfully killing an NM that your typical gimps can't and send a /tell. There's also countless LS's that have websites, and even forums that you could simply ask who might be someone to talk to.

Now that we've established that it's entirely possible to cut the gimps almost completely out of your personal gaming picture, the next point I want to mention is that if these gimps to get to 90 (99)... so what? While it can be annoying to see a group take 30 minutes to kill something as trivial as most of the Iron Giants, there's still very little direct interaction. They can quest away their seals for AF3+1, never attempt +2 for all I care, they're still (in general, though exceptions certainly do exist) better geared than they used to be. And they are able to get stuff done for themselves. While I consider myself a well above average player, I don't hold on to some sort of feeling that the lesser skilled deserve nothing. In fact, it's healthy for the game as a whole if they can do stuff, whether it's the simple NM's, leveling all jobs to 90, questing, attempting (and failing) at harder NM's, capping merits, shouting for mercs to beat Rani for them, whatever, if their interest is maintained in the game, it's likely to last longer. So let the gimps have their fun, and let them get far better gear than they used to be able to (admit it, despite the fact that full perle is lols, it's much better than the hodgepodge of shit we used to see). The more subscribers the better, and besides, they have zero impact on me, aside from occasionally making my group wait a bit longer to pop an NM, because that's the way I choose to play - without the gimps.

And this is not an argument supporting the tired old "it's their $12.95." I'm not at all arguing that they don't suck, because they do, I'm only saying that it only matters if you let it.

uh...

you said you only do things with friends and never observe shout groups or exp parties? I do not understand how you can say "gimps" are better now then they were when you don't really see them in action.

How is using 5/5 NQ emp gear good idea? it does nothing, lest the gimps in the past that where full af was more useful. Then add the na say macros.

People dont know that they need to use HQ staffs? they full time mp gear and dark staff? how is that better then the past?

How is MP gear PLD at 55 on his second job that abyssea whm to 90 first better then in the past? then claim they have no money to buy gear.

I am telling you I had 2 BLM in the same pt that could not do azure kills because they had NQ staffs and mp gear.

gear can be easy to get all you want but as game gets easier people get lazyer and never learn to use it

[thelittlecrash]

leeching a job to 90 is a shame on you, but I have seen my fair share of leechers and some do have decent gear when they hit the higher lvls. The only real thing that holds them back is the skills and exp with the job itself. As for any job I believe no matter what the skills in it they need to be capped because you never know what you are gonna need. As for the person who only parties with their LS mates then good for them, but I have to agree since this is only how you exp/farm/ upgrade gear you really dont have a say when it comes to leechers and gimps

[thelittlecrash]

Oh and PS getting all HQ staves is extremely expensive and not really necessary unless your main is SMN.

[rog]

Oh and PS getting all HQ staves is extremely expensive and not really necessary unless your main is SMN.
wahh?

1234567890

[Fiarlia]

uh...

you said you only do things with friends and never observe shout groups or exp parties? I do not understand how you can say "gimps" are better now then they were when you don't really see them in action.

You're assuming that I have always only pt'd with my LS. You're also assuming that I can't (and don't) /check people. You're also assuming that I can't go look at forums that post pics of gimps for everyone to laugh at. Guess I'm going to be required to provide a little back story then. When Abyssea first came out, I was in a purely social shell, granted, we'd often do some stuff together but it was almost never planned, and certainly not executed in the best way possible. I did join shout groups for exp and NM's, especially when the second expansion came out, though I didn't play in shout groups exclusively. I'm well aware of the gimps, how they play and how common they are. So when the leader of my social shell quit and the shell went poof (more or less) I jumped in with a group of people from that shell that started their own. Now I only play with them (or go solo). And again, I frequently read threads on other forums (that allow the bashing of gimps) that talk about or even show screenshots of gimps. They haven't always been out of the picture for me, but now they are. And yes, whenever I walk by conflux 8 in Abyssea - Altepa I will /check people there because it almost always provides me with a laugh - especially when they wipe to Meltdown. When my group does have to wait for a group of gimps to finish fighting an NM so we can pop it I usually /check some of them (the ones with apparent bad visible gear). No, I'm certainly well aware of the gimps in the game. The reason I cut them out of the picture is because I'm well aware of them, how bad they are and how common they are. The problem is I also did shout groups before Abyssea for merits, and I can tell you I've seen plenty of them there, too.


How is using 5/5 NQ emp gear good idea? it does nothing, lest the gimps in the past that where full af was more useful. Then add the na say macros.

Anyone who uses say macros is stupid. Nationality has nothing to do with it. And no, NQ Emp gear isn't a good idea, neither is full AF or full Relic. But then again neither is far more than half the shit they used to wear. And if you're specifically talking about NQ gear, then we're speaking on a slightly different perspective of gimp. You are talking about the absolute bottom of the barrel players, and I don't think that the absolute bottom of the barrel players in the past would wear full AF, they'd likely wear something more akin to full Seer's or a Brigandine and a Fang Necklace, maybe with the level 14 NQ DEX rings, or the DEX rings with an Acc enchantment (which they would strangely never use), or even the level 1 starting rings with INT wands instead of Elemental Staves. I, on the other hand, have been talking more about the people who make at least a half-hearted attempt, though their selection makes it obvious they know next to nothing about game mechanics.


People dont know that they need to use HQ staffs? they full time mp gear and dark staff? how is that better then the past?

Actually that's the same as the past, go and peruse that BG thread that was linked earlier and I know you'll find examples of it. Abyssea has nothing to do with this mindset.


How is MP gear PLD at 55 on his second job that abyssea whm to 90 first better then in the past? then claim they have no money to buy gear.

Look at my above response, same stuff, just replace Abyssea leeching with level sync in East Ronfaure [S]. Or Bhaflau Thickets. Or Astral Burns.


I am telling you I had 2 BLM in the same pt that could not do azure kills because they had NQ staffs and mp gear.

So kick them? Or if you're not the pt leader drop and find another pt? This concept seems so hard for some people.


As for the person who only parties with their LS mates then good for them, but I have to agree since this is only how you exp/farm/ upgrade gear you really dont have a say when it comes to leechers and gimps

See above, please. I chose to cut them out of my playing experience because they were there, and I didn't like playing with them.


Oh and PS getting all HQ staves is extremely expensive and not really necessary unless your main is SMN.

Absolutely not, they are not expensive and benefit most other jobs more than SMN now (because of new gear with -perpetuation and Refresh, plus Auto-Refresh II). But meh, Magians trumps them anyway.

Also, both of you completely missed the other portion of my post, or ignored it completely. But, if you missed it, I'll repost for you. ^^


Now that we've established that it's entirely possible to cut the gimps almost completely out of your personal gaming picture, the next point I want to mention is that if these gimps to get to 90 (99)... so what? While it can be annoying to see a group take 30 minutes to kill something as trivial as most of the Iron Giants, there's still very little direct interaction. And they are able to get stuff done for themselves. While I consider myself a well above average player, I don't hold on to some sort of feeling that the lesser skilled deserve nothing. In fact, it's healthy for the game as a whole if they can do stuff, whether it's the simple NM's, leveling all jobs to 90, questing, attempting (and failing) at harder NM's, capping merits, shouting for mercs to beat Rani for them, whatever, if their interest is maintained in the game, it's likely to last longer. So let the gimps have their fun, and let them get far better gear than they used to be able to (admit it, despite the fact that full perle is lols, it's much better than the hodgepodge of shit we used to see). The more subscribers the better, and besides, they have zero impact on me, aside from occasionally making my group wait a bit longer to pop an NM, because that's the way I choose to play - without the gimps

Rather than bitching up a storm about gimps and/or Abyssea leeching... how about y'all just get over it? Really, this is quite a simple concept; if you don't like the gimps, and get very angry/annoyed/rageguy when you encounter them and group with them... stop? Get a small group of friends. It's really not hard, and it will not only make this a non-issue for you, but it will make the game infinitely more fun for you, I promise.

[Fiarlia]

Double post, weeeeeeeeeeee. >.>

And to those who think getting a large group of friends is hard, it does not take a full alliance to do anything, especially exp in Abyssea (and I'm not even talking about Fell Cleave or Cataclysm burns), contrary to popular belief. The group I mentioned I play with, we do Abyssea exp pt's every Sunday. Guess how many people are actually killing the mobs. Three. Yep, three. Everyone else in the group is leeching, but since we're not gimps it's ok. We either have skilled the skills from a previous job, or will skill before we actively use those jobs. We make sure we get our spells before we use them. We usually have gear that we level into (quite often it's top notch stuff as we all know what jobs we plan on leveling so we start getting the gear beforehand), and if not, we wait to use the job until we do.

We leech, and we leech like crazy, but it's all within our own group.

Now... if Abyssea leeching was actually a problem, wouldn't this cause some problems? Seriously. If Abyssea leeching was really a problem, would someone who predominantly plays mage jobs be able to leech MNK, have good gear, get H2H skilled be able to act as our "main tank" on NM's, and do it incredibly well? Nope, but here's the kicker, people in my group have done it.

The problem is not Abyssea leeching, the problem is the people you encounter. Deal with it, because it's always been like that and will always be like that. And by deal with it I mean either stop bitching about leeching and start bitching about the gimps themselves, or stop playing with them and in turn stop bitching about leeching, or just suck it up and stop bitching about leeching and keep playing with them.

Whichever you choose, just stop bitching about Abyssea leeching because there's no point, and absolutely no ground for your argument to stand on.

[Eeek]

Can a RDM90/WHM45 cast Haste? This is important guys. Some lolMNK I know keeps yelling at me demanding Haste, and I don't know what else to say. I keep pointing out that I'm not a WHM or a BRD but he just won't take the hint.

Also, why do mages want Refresh from me? I mean, they can sub RDM now for their own Refresh! Hell, they can even Convert for more MP. Why do these lazy mages bother me so?

[rog]

iirc, whm gets haste at 40, so yeah.

[Fiarlia]

RDM also natively gets Haste at 48, so I'm pretty sure that post was sarcastic... at least I hope it was.

[RaenRyong]

you leeched a job to 90? you FAIL

My 90 leeched jobs are better than you will ever be.

[Niklz]

My 90 leeched jobs are better than you will ever be.

how do you dislike a comment? i can't remember

[rog]

My 90 leeched jobs are better than you will ever be.
My leeched jobs were better than he was by the time i hit 75.

When i leveled blm, once i hit 75 and was able to use all my gear, i parsed #1 in a party of level 85 dds.

[Rambus]

So kick them? Or if you're not the pt leader drop and find another pt? This concept seems so hard for some people.

Was trying to, if my friend did not have so little time and if I didnt have to go sleep i would of job change for him. ( takes too long to job change)

If there was faster ways of job change I WOULD OF changed to blu to help him. (talking about helping my ls friend that was short on time)

there was no one around -.-

and we did not even have 18/18 at the time was more like 16 or 17

I do not care about BG thread or bottom of the ballel people as you put it ( I dislike the site because they banned me for telling people I did not merit stone)

I care about the frequency of running into them, and that number was increasing since ATU came out. ( I can into more in ATU era vs AB era but i herd some bad stories of how people played after being in AB.

Some of my stories of seeing people gear where not all directly effected me ( like that WHM) just something I saw walking around to kill NM in abyssea ( they had a different NM when i saw it).

That melee when I talked about I did get kicked, if he would melee and use temps to consistently keep mp up and try work something that would allow him to melee and do his job. I would not of kicked him.

I kicked him and send him tell, now will you listen? can you do a beter job to keep mp up if you are going to melee? outside pt are curing more then you.

He then went on talking about how his whm can outdd me and that he did not need the pt just wanted to skill up so I said I don’t need you and I got a rep already. (this is not the 5/5 NQ emp gear Na say macro whm, that was the guy I saw fighting some NM in abyssea with a group)

other people let people sit and afk leech because they are friend or something w/e. point is people accept gimp now because it is so easy to get exp it is like oh we have 1-5 gimps it dont matter we can still get exp anyway

abyssea pt is useally

5 people that do thier job

1 person in OMG gear ( emp user or emp ws weapon)

6 gimps

1 key leech

5 afk people

It is not like i can find a new party when this is the accepted norm so I do what i can to weed out the worst of the worst.

[Tenshibaby]

The point at which the guy brought up Bards being gimp for fulltiming Marches really pretty much solidified for me that he's basically your stereotypical Pre-Abyssea Maat's Cap. Tons of jobs, doesn't know a damn thing about game mechanics or gear.
So you say March x2 is the only song melees need and you say that I am the one who deosn't know a damn thing.... Spoken like a true Abyssea-leeched RDM.



Leveling the old way does not atomically a better player so quit sounding like your views are based on that. Leeching a job does not atomically mean you will always suck at it.
Atomic leveling ftw!

What many of you don't get is that you think there are 2 groups of players: those that leveled their jobs and took months and learned every step and knows the weaknesses and strengths, and therefore are clueless noobs because they were 75 when you were running around trying to find your way out of Windurst, and those who key-whored and spammed 1-2 spells in Abyssea, and are therefore more likely to be awesome.

Some veterans suck, and some leechers are good, but if you think that veterans are more likely to suck than leechers (when it is obvious many of you depend heavily on this) you are just hopeless.

[Greatguardian]

So I don't know how Haste works because 1 of my 7 jobs was Abyssea leeched? LolOk. There are extremely rare situations where mixing a song with March would beat out double March, but it's so incredibly unlikely to come across something like this, especially at this stage in the game's life, that it's borderline ridiculous.

Going from 40% Haste (Gear + Haste spell) to 63% Haste (adds marches) is a 62% increase in attack speed, which increases both TP phase damage and WS frequency. What the hell other songs come even remotely close to a 60% increase in damage under normal circumstances?

[Rambus]

Maybe it is different now; I am not sure and if someone is going to counter the statement I am going to make it better be done so with math/ parse.

march/march is only done if you need a tank to puch down recasts or something. you useally have a second support if you are doing march/march. ( I/E second bard to do attack songs or cor)

PLD and solo brd it is march/ ballad. (though this hardly exists anymore, still stating it though)

If there is only one bard ( no cor) you do march/ attack.

A range attack base damage would be attack/attack.

soooo...
To me the "norm" is having one bard do march/ attack. I think that is why he attacked you.

[Tenshibaby]

I attacked him because he and many other people think all jobs can be boiled down to a simple cycle and formula with no ideas of their own, no flexibility for different circumstances, no true awareness of the game to know when the circumstances ARE different, and no knowledge of their jobs to adapt or innovate.

If people think all their job consists of is doing 1 of 2-3 options, it's no wonder they get to 90 and think they're as good as the big boys.

[Greatguardian]

Maybe it is different now, I am not sure and if someone is going to couter the statment I am going to make it better be done so with math/ prase.

march/march is only done if you need a tank to puch down recasts or something. you useally have a second support if you are doing march/march. ( I/E second bard to do attack songs or cor)

PLD and solo brd it is march/ ballad. (though this hardly exists anymore, still stating it though)

If there is only one bard ( no cor) you do march/ attack.

A range attack base damage would be attack/attack.

soooo...
To me the "norm" is having one bard do march/ attack. I think that is why he attacked you.

You're asking me to reply with math when you're the one replying to my math without any.

Going from Gear+Haste to Gear+Haste+Marchx2 is a 62% increase in attack speed, which increases TP damage and WS damage (via WS frequency). I can't say it's exactly a 62% increase in total damage because that leaves out JA delay, but it would not be far off to say that, for the purposes of discussion, it is roughly a 60% increase in total damage dealt.

The absolute maximum you can get from any single minuet is +81 attack. On a DD/War with 700 Attack w/o Berserk, your average non-song'd Attack is going to be 805. Going from 805 average attack to 886 average attack is a 10% increase in attack plus a 27% increase in attack speed when you're using March 2 + Minuet 5. This doesn't come close to the 62% increase in attack speed you're getting by using double marches, and fails to take into account the decreasing returns and eventual cap on Attack (Putting it in your favor and still losing).

The more attack you have, the less each point of it is doing for you. The more Haste you have, the more each point of it is doing for you. Unless the DDs in question are complete and utter suck, not eating food, sitting with Attack Down debuffs fulltime; March+March will beat March+Minuet.

[Greatguardian]

I attacked him because he and many other people think all jobs can be boiled down to a simple cycle and formula with no ideas of their own, no flexibility for different circumstances, no true awareness of the game to know when the circumstances ARE different, and no knowledge of their jobs to adapt or innovate.

If people think all their job consists of is doing 1 of 2-3 options, it's no wonder they get to 90 and think they're as good as the big boys.

Get over it. I know damn well how situational things are. Trying to create hopelessly unrealistic situations just to prove a point is doing nothing to help your cause. Marchx2 is going to be the best song combination in 99% of situations. Ragging on Bards who use it is just shortsighted.

[Rambus]

You're asking me to reply with math when you're the one replying to my math without any.

Going from Gear+Haste to Gear+Haste+Marchx2 is a 62% increase in attack speed, which increases TP damage and WS damage (via WS frequency). I can't say it's exactly a 62% increase in total damage because that leaves out JA delay, but it would not be far off to say that, for the purposes of discussion, it is roughly a 60% increase in total damage dealt.

The absolute maximum you can get from any single minuet is +81 attack. On a DD/War with 700 Attack w/o Berserk, your average non-song'd Attack is going to be 805. Going from 805 average attack to 886 average attack is a 10% increase in attack plus a 27% increase in attack speed when you're using March 2 + Minuet 5. This doesn't come close to the 62% increase in attack speed you're getting by using double marches, and fails to take into account the decreasing returns and eventual cap on Attack (Putting it in your favor and still losing).

The more attack you have, the less each point of it is doing for you. The more Haste you have, the more each point of it is doing for you. Unless the DDs in question are complete and utter suck, not eating food, sitting with Attack Down debuffs fulltime; March+March will beat March+Minuet.

700 attack? no buffs? abyssea?

you forgot to include all jobs and if they are puching delay cap with march and haste.

[Greatguardian]

700 attack? no buffs? abyssea?

you forgot to include all jobs and if they are puching delay cap with march and haste.

I have 700 attack without Buffs outside Abyssea on Mnk =/ What's your point? Is food somehow not standard any more? And the only job that can hit the delay cap without Haste Samba is Nin afaik, and any good Nin would be tweaking their gear to avoid Delay overflow under those buffs anyways.

Plus if you're going to move the discussion to outside Abyssea, you're going to be capping Attack on things a hell of a lot easier =/. How many NMs are there greater than level 90 now to even start accounting for Level Correction outside Abyssea? No more than a dozen, I'm sure.

[Rambus]

I have 700 attack without Buffs outside Abyssea on Mnk =/ What's your point? Is food somehow not standard any more? And the only job that can hit the delay cap without Haste Samba is Nin afaik, and any good Nin would be tweaking their gear to avoid Delay overflow under those buffs anyways.

Plus if you're going to move the discussion to outside Abyssea, you're going to be capping Attack on things a hell of a lot easier =/. How many NMs are there greater than level 90 now to even start accounting for Level Correction outside Abyssea? No more than a dozen, I'm sure.

I will admit I am just here checking out on situations, i have no idea on 90 math esp inside abyssea. I do not really look at my screan. So i cannot say yeah my war has this attack for ws, mnk has that, job z had xxx str xxx attack.

I can say this though namas arrow needs huge amounts of attack. i ussed STR/ R attack atma, VV, R attack/ R acc atma

food still gave me more damage
berserk on top of that still gave me more damage
warcry on top of that gave me more damage

so where is this cap?????

when i was on war getting attack song I would pop a lot more 4k raging rush vs without ( useally only pop that with warcry)

and double haste assumes you are always on mobs, witch is more untrue then is

[Karbuncle]

RNG is a different story. It should never get march outside of maybe 1-2 Situations, as they generally do NOTHING for Ranged Attacks in ANY WAY. If i remember Ranged attack is calculated completely different than Melee Attack. So you will be hard pressed to cap Ranged Attack without massive buffs. Melee-Damage is not the same.

As for your WAR, You're looking entirely too much on Spike E-PEEN DMG. Thats what terrible SAMs and DRKs who fulltime STR Gear do. Your WS may average lower, But you will attack significantly more, and in turn WS more than you would with a Minuet combo. In the end this will average March/March significantly higher than March/Minuet. or any other Minuet/based combo.

Double March is the correct for 99% of situations for any DD, Even Delay-overflow as specified for NINs/DNCs is moot, since any good one will have gear to accommodate this. Most. Not all.

[Tenshibaby]

Any BRD who only uses March falls into one of these categories:
1. A BRD who placates melees who don't know what they're talking about.
2. A BRD who is just lazy.
3. A BRD who leeched in Abyssea and came to a forum where someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about told them to use double March in all but the "hopelessly unrealistic" situations.

And FWIW, If your ATK is 700 and it goes up 70, that doesn't mean your damage output goes up 10%.

[Greatguardian]

Ranger is a completely different beast and Ranged Attack/fStr2 does not work the same way as with melee DDs. March is, of course, also completely useless for a RNG so I'm not sure where they were brought into this at all.

Even if you're not capped on Attack, you are still experiencing decreasing returns when your attack level is high already. Haste has increasing returns. You may hit 4k RRs more often with Minuet 5, but you are doing less overall damage than you would if you had a second March.

[Tenshibaby]

Some people just look for easy trends to latch onto like the latest fad. "Stick with this until the crowd changes its mind". Spam ACC... no, wait, STR now! Wait, Haste!

[Rambus]

I know RNG is different, who said i was only talking about RNG?

and like i said you have to assume fulltime on mobs witch may not be the case.

NMs you may have DD run in and out, EXP you can get TP in like 2 hits if you are lucky and WS killshot.

you are funnnuh if you think a lot of people compasate for cap delay overflow, most people don't even know about it

[Karbuncle]

Any BRD who only uses March falls into one of these categories:
1. A BRD who Knows basic Math
2. A BRD who Understands the importance of Attack Speed, and its impact in WS frequency
3. A BRD who ls Intelligent enough to understand how in most situations, March is the best solution, as it will offer the most overall increase in DPS and Weaponskill Frequency, adding to higher over-all Melee proficiency and Damage output of respectable DD.



I fixed that for you, I slip up all the time don't feel bad about it.

[Greatguardian]

Any BRD who only uses March falls into one of these categories:
1. A BRD who placates melees who don't know what they're talking about.
2. A BRD who is just lazy.
3. A BRD who leeched in Abyssea and came to a forum where someone else who doesn't know what they're talking about told them to use double March in all but the "hopelessly unrealistic" situations.

And FWIW, If your ATK is 700 and it goes up 70, that doesn't mean your damage output goes up 10%.

@Last line, no shit. It's just a look at relative increases.

Tell me then, in all seriousness, what monster would you be fighting now where you would use something that is not March+March? Seriously, all you're doing is throwing around insults screaming that "Shit is situational", which everyone with half a brain knows, but you won't bring up a SINGLE counterpoint.

Not one.

Not in this entire thread have you provided ONE counterpoint. ONE situation which would validate your claims.

What songs would you use over March+March, and where/when would you use them? Go.

[Karbuncle]

Some people just look for easy trends to latch onto like the latest fad. "Stick with this until the crowd changes its mind". Spam ACC... no, wait, STR now! Wait, Haste!

Thats not a fad/trend*, Thats called evolving Playstyles and evolving intellect in the average player.

Accuracy has always been important, The reason its not Top-King today is because of Level-Correction and overwhelming skill levels. To the point where most jobs can afford to Full-on haste and still cap Accuracy.

I don't remember a time where STR was prefered over haste.

Haste has always been Important, If we had our knowledge of the games mechanics today, back in 2004, We'd all be still trying to fit on as much haste as possible while capping Accuracy.

As The players knowledge evolves, so does the best gear options. You can even look at the JP plastyle on BLU for example. The JP prefer to use M.ACC on BLU spells to proc Added-Effects, rather than go for raw damage. its a playstyle adapted by the Common person due to its proficiency. While NA generally prefer to Maximize Damage potential.

[Rambus]

What songs would you use over March+March, and where/when would you use them? Go.

my sam/war. haste and attack plz

or attack attack if im suck outside aoe range XD

[Karbuncle]

my sam/war. haste and attack plz

You're entitled to what you want, But it doesn't change that in plain math, That's an Obsoleted combo. March/March is going to give you Much more damage output, ESPECIALLY considering the Massive Attack boost Y/G/K Receive, making Attack next to useless on your Weaponskills.

[Rambus]

when did i ever say it was for Y/G/K?


I will admit I am just here checking out on situations, i have no idea on 90 math esp inside abyssea. I do not really look at my screan. So i cannot say yeah my war has this attack for ws, mnk has that, job z had xxx str xxx attack.

I can say this though namas arrow needs huge amounts of attack. i ussed STR/ R attack atma, VV, R attack/ R acc atma

food still gave me more damage
berserk on top of that still gave me more damage
warcry on top of that gave me more damage

so where is this cap?????

when i was on war getting attack song I would pop a lot more 4k raging rush vs without ( useally only pop that with warcry)

and double haste assumes you are always on mobs, witch is more untrue then is

I would kill to test haste/ march/ and attack song. i soloed scs just on haste a lot ( without is tricky)

[Greatguardian]

my sam/war. haste and attack plz

Yoichi Sam/War? This is a terribad case of looking at WS spikes versus WS frequency. Haste is Haste, WS frequency is WS frequency. You may not hit Epeen Namas's every shot, but you're getting a healthy chunk more WS with the added Haste assuming you're actually hitting Namas every time you break 100TP. Even with TP overflow from using a Quint Spear, this is situational at best, and would probably rank as one of the only situations in the entire game where Min/March would work out even remotely close to March/March; and then only if you're the only DD in the party, or are otherwise getting unique songs.

[Karbuncle]

when did i ever say it was for Y/G/K?

Oh, You use Namas Arrow on your SAM... Okaaay i missed that. Edit: I'll let GG take over.

Did you use to Post on KillingIfrit? About SMN Stuff i think? Have an Avatar with your character leaning against a tree with Carby by you?

[Rambus]

Yoichi Sam/War? This is a terribad case of looking at WS spikes versus WS frequency. Haste is Haste, WS frequency is WS frequency. You may not hit Epeen Namas's every shot, but you're getting a healthy chunk more WS with the added Haste assuming you're actually hitting Namas every time you break 100TP. Even with TP overflow from using a Quint Spear, this is situational at best, and would probably rank as one of the only situations in the entire game where Min/March would work out decently; and then only if you're the only DD in the party, or are otherwise getting unique songs.


more damage on ws, more damage on sc. like i said i can already frequently solo sc with just haste spell.

wonder what it be like meleeing a mob nearby and just go nuts shooting at NM.

safe, out of aoe, almost hate free damage XD

the double march thing is still assuming you are always on NM -.-

[Greatguardian]

To be honest I was posing the question for Tenshibaby anyways. Even if Namas Arrow SAMs constitute an entire 1% of the FFXI population (highly doubtful), saying that March/March thoroughly wins 99% of the time is still correct. Even in the case of Namas SAM, I'd think March/March would destroy March/Min; just by a smaller margin than with other jobs. I suck at ranged damage formulas though so I'll leave it up to someone else if they want to mess with that.

Edit: Increased Skillchain damage as a reason to place WS damage over WS frequency? Just no.

[Rambus]

To be honest I was posing the question for Tenshibaby anyways. Even if Namas Arrow SAMs constitute an entire 1% of the FFXI population (highly doubtful), saying that March/March thoroughly wins 99% of the time is still correct. Even in the case of Namas SAM, I'd think March/March would destroy March/Min; just by a smaller margin than with other jobs. I suck at ranged damage formulas though so I'll leave it up to someone else if they want to mess with that.

Edit: Increased Skillchain damage as a reason to place WS damage over WS frequency? Just no.

1. I guess, anyways the double march thing has to assume always on NM, tank mnk sure ( when does mnk hit delay cap anyway with trait?)

Maybe he is telling you think about running in and ws and running out witch I was saying.

double march... though I guess it has to be tested on NM i really do not know but without extra attack on top those atmas i cannot oneshot exp mob because damage is too low. I can oneshot EXP mob because of sc when berserk is up. I was soloing sc with just haste spell so added with march II how does march I really help?

on worms in la thene

800 ish with nothing
1400 ish with food
1800 ish with food and zerk
up to 2500 with berserk food and warcry

really crazy. I just got it so i could be wrong i guess because I just got it, but the damage increase with buffs just off food and berserk is insane. my friend though it could crt because of the large difference when i was doing trails with her outside abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

Adding March 1 is a 27% increase in attack speed over just using March2/Haste/Gear. I'd say it helps a lot.

Edit: I really have yet to meet a single competent group that ran in/out to damage things. Really. Not one. Why in the hell would a DD be there if they're not engaged? They're a complete waste of space. If you have too many DDs in a group to put on the NM, fight two different NMs.

[Rambus]

I thoguth you where in here ealier or a different thread talking about some NM being spammy that 1 whm can't really handle it

[Greatguardian]

I thoguth you where in here ealier or a different thread talking about some NM being spammy that 1 whm can't really handle it

I said 1 WHM shouldn't be healing 5 DDs. I never said any NM was too spammy for a WHM to handle healing 1-2 people. I also don't know of any NM that needs more than 1-2 DDs. If you have those 1-2 DDs and a WHM, you absolutely don't need extra DDs running around the sidelines and WS'ing it. Those DDs can either not be there, or can pair up with another healer and do a second NM in a different part of the zone.

Edit: And I never listed TP feed as the reason multiple DDs die. In fact the entire purpose of that post was to say that it had nothing to do with TP feed. Having 5 DDs on the NM is not going to kill you because the NM got Spammy. It's going to kill people because 1 WHM can only cast 1 spell at a time. If they're curing one person, another is not being cured. If you leave 5 DDs to a single WHM, they will have to cut their losses and drop people for the sake of the whole.

That said, no one should ever be bringing 5 DDs and 1 Whm to anything anyways. Really.

[Rambus]

I said 1 WHM shouldn't be healing 5 DDs. I never said any NM was too spammy for a WHM to handle healing 1-2 people. I also don't know of any NM that needs more than 1-2 DDs. If you have those 1-2 DDs and a WHM, you absolutely don't need extra DDs running around the sidelines and WS'ing it. Those DDs can either not be there, or can pair up with another healer and do a second NM in a different part of the zone.

gate of hades or something...

and sorry for wording it wrong you are right.

what about that one NM that uses thunder to level up? the small group i ment just brews the crap out of it.

[Tenshibaby]

lol I just realized how pointless it is to argue not Haste-whoring with people who also advocate Abyssea-leeching.

And if you know that 700 + 70 isn't the same as 10% damage output, then don't pull it in for comparison as though it were. Your earlier comparison suggested you weren't aware of this.

[Rambus]

didn't you say that once already? I do not think anyone said that to begin with

10% more attack sure but not 10% more damage output

[Tenshibaby]

I said 1 Abyssea-leveled WHM shouldn't be healing 5 DDs.
That said, no one should ever be bringing 5 DDs and 1 Abyssea-leveled Whm to anything anyways. Really.

Fixed it for you.

[Tenshibaby]

Well it looked like on page 15 he was saying how that 10% added attack was no match for the extra whatever % damage calculation the added March gives.

[Greatguardian]

lol I just realized how pointless it is to argue not Haste-whoring with people who also advocate Abyssea-leeching.

And if you know that 700 + 70 isn't the same as 10% damage output, then don't pull it in for comparison as though it were. Your earlier comparison suggested you weren't aware of this.

Really? It's pointless when you haven't contributed a single thing this entire time? Oh, okay. Seriously. "Haste whores"? You're not making things any better for yourself. Going from 700 to 770 Attack is less than a 10% increase in damage, not more.

Now, I may not agree with Rambus about everything but at least he's applying actual situations to things. I asked you before and I'll ask you again, against what monster or in what situation would you use songs that were not March/March, and what would they be?

@Rambus, I just stun the Khimaira. People just brew him for the Empyrean upgrade items because it saves time, in my experience. Getting 75 horns is annoying enough, 200k cruor is no big deal if it shaves off 20-30~ minutes of fighting 4 Khims.

Edit: Leveling the old way doesn't make you miraculously able to cast Curaga IV at -50% Cast Time back to back. You can't break the hard cap on casting speed, nor can you break the forced delay after each spell. WHM can alternate Cure V and Cure VI to keep any one or two DDs alive without issue. They cannot apply that to 5 DDs together; no matter where they leveled.

[Rambus]

It is +10% attack... where did he say 10% damage output?

on the other topic, dont have ss of unbuffed ws ><

it was complete crap >< shocked warcry added damage even after food and zerk.

replay to edit: (the "you" is directed to Tenshibaby)

the only thing extra experience can do to one person is judging precuring. I told you before leveling the old way does not mean you are atomically better then someone that leeched.

it is more likely but not always the case.

[Tenshibaby]

Going from 700 to 770 Attack is less than a 10% increase in damage, not more.
If you think this is absolutely true it explains a lot about you.

And I manage to keep my parties cured quite well. Maybe in those "hopelessly unrealistic" situations where your Abyssea-leveled tank sucks, or your Abyssea-leveled haste-whoring DD's can't control their hate, maybe 1 WHM isn't enough to keep 5 DD's alive, but I've solo-healed full alliances before due to them being skilled players.


It is +10% attack... where did he say 10% damage output?
It is easily inferred the way he fit that into his comparison.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: The game doesn't work by the math.

[Greatguardian]

If you think this is absolutely true it explains a lot about you.

And I manage to keep my parties cured quite well. Maybe in those "hopelessly unrealistic" situations where your Abyssea-leveled tank sucks, or your Abyssea-leveled haste-whoring DD's can't control their hate, maybe 1 WHM isn't enough to keep 5 DD's alive, but I've solo-healed full alliances before due to them being skilled players.


It is easily inferred the way he fit that into his comparison.

Attack has Decreasing returns. Where, in what dimension, on what planet, can a 10% increase in Attack correlate to greater than a 10% increase in damage? Seriously, you're beyond inept. What the hell sort of talk is this? "Haste whoring DDs can't control their hate"? Really?

And yes, I made an inferred correlation between Attack's relative increase and damage's relative increase. But I assumed that anyone with the ego you have would at least know the absolute basics of Attack and realize that 10% more attack must correlate to any number less than or equal to a 10% increase in damage. I did not give an exact value for the amount of damage increased because there was no example Monster specified to compare it to; I simply gave you the upper limit, putting things, yet again, in your favor.

[Tenshibaby]

the only thing extra experience can do to one person is judging precuring. I told you before leveling the old way does not mean you are atomically better then someone that leeched.

it is more likely but not always the case.
I agree it is not always the case, but to listen to these guys babbling you'd think the Abyssea leech is better until proven otherwise. After all, apparently, miraculously more people learn their jobs better by afk-ing for hours on end than those people who finished a good party 1/3 of the way closer to their next level.

I can say one thing about me leveling WHM as my first 75 over the course of a couple of years is that I have developed a semi-reliable internal timer where I have an excellent sense of when to re-cast things, if I am paying attention at least.

[Neisan_Quetz]

More people learn their jobs better through research and passing high school math classes.

[Greatguardian]

I can say one thing about me leveling WHM as my first 75 over the course of a couple of years is that I have developed a semi-reliable internal timer where I have an excellent sense of when to re-cast things, if I am paying attention at least.

Even Console/Non-Windower WHMs know that you can just recast 3 minute buffs (Haste, etc) 1 Vana'Diel hour later than the original cast =/. Or was that something you didn't learn exp'ing all those jobs up for your Maat's cap?

[Tenshibaby]

Attack has Decreasing returns. Where, in what dimension, on what planet, can a 10% increase in Attack correlate to greater than a 10% increase in damage? Seriously, you're beyond inept. What the hell sort of talk is this? "Haste whoring DDs can't control their hate"? Really?

Attack does not consistently have diminishing returns. Accuracy, yes, but not attack. It has occasional plateaus in calculating pDIF, but it more often has consistent increase in pDIF.
Here is a very simple explanation of how 10% increase in attack gives more than 10% increase in damage: Someone hitting for X damage against a high def mob for 0 damage. Maybe with that 10% they start hitting for 6-11 or so, but let's just say 1. 1 divided by 0 is undefined, but it is far higher than a 10% increase. Before you say this is rare blah blah blah, note I am pointing out the other extreme. It doesn't magically switch over to attack being "diminishing returns".

Physical damage increases proportionately with pDIF, which increases at about 120% of the atk/def ratio, depending on if it is at a plateau or not. For example, if your ATK is 300 and the mob's DEF is 250, the atk/def is 1.2. If your ATK goes to 330, it becomes 1.32. The pDIF will go from a 0.8-1.3 range to about a 1.0-1.5 range, which can be as high as 25% a difference. This is not the maximum by any stretch, just an example.

[Tenshibaby]

Even Console/Non-Windower WHMs know that you can just recast 3 minute buffs (Haste, etc) 1 Vana'Diel hour later than the original cast =/. Or was that something you didn't learn exp'ing all those jobs up for your Maat's cap?
lol You really love making those Maat's cap digs for some reason, to which I can only speculate. I can assure yo I know all my jobs as well as I claim to, and while I know some better than others, I am more than qualified to hold my own on any of them. Unlike you, I learned and earned my jobs.
Of course I know that about the Vana'diel clock, but I don't need it or use it.

[Greatguardian]

All of this fails to convey where you would use songs other than March/March and which songs they would be.

If you're going to argue something out of principle, at least make it something that isn't so heavily stacked against you.

Edit: And I exp'd my first jobs before Colibri even existed =/ Rdm, my 7th job, was the only one that got the Abyssea treatment. You seem to forget that fairly often.

[RaenRyong]

Physical damage increases proportionately with pDIF, which increases at about 120% of the atk/def ratio, depending on if it is at a plateau or not. For example, if your ATK is 300 and the mob's DEF is 250, the atk/def is 1.2. If your ATK goes to 330, it becomes 1.32. The pDIF will go from a 0.8-1.3 range to about a 1.0-1.5 range, which can be as high as 25% a difference. This is not the maximum by any stretch, just an example.

I'm not gonna do the math on it now because it's late at night, but how can that be as high as a 25% difference?

Really interested to see your character with all of the anti-haste talk. How antiquated.

EDIT: Is this you?

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Gilgamesh/Tenshibaby#home

if so, you should stop right now.

[tarolin]

I saw your comments earlier about beating most rdm's and tbh not so great guardian WHO CARES! its a game and by saying i beat everyone well good for being a kid trying to get attention. I am level 90 rdm i got it the hard way but im not against leaching if you actually learned about the job. tbh i have learned that rdm is not actually used much in abyssea thats why i leveled blu and others. All i can say is grow up.

[Greatguardian]

I saw your comments earlier about beating most rdm's and tbh not so great guardian WHO CARES! its a game and by saying i beat everyone well good for being a kid trying to get attention. I am level 90 rdm i got it the hard way but im not against leaching if you actually learned about the job. tbh i have learned that rdm is not actually used much in abyssea thats why i leveled blu and others. All i can say is grow up.

How does it feel to have completely missed the entire point of that post?

[tarolin]

what saying your better than most hard earned rdms um....... /poke

[Greatguardian]

what saying your better than most hard earned rdms um....... /poke

The point was that how someone leveled doesn't determine how good/bad they are. Any good FFXI player can pick up any job in the game, leech it to 90, and be better than any random Trog in Jeuno that leveled the "real way". I could care less about my ego. The fact of the matter is that most people suck at FFXI. It's not hard to be better than 90% of the other players in the game just by performing at a basic level.

[tarolin]

i laughed at most people suck at ff11 , you must not have much friends kid. And on that point im not going to bother with your not so valid comments. This is a game , people play to have fun and thats wat im going to do and many others regardless of skill level.

[Greatguardian]

i laughed at most people suck at ff11 , you must not have much friends kid. And on that point im not going to bother with your not so valid comments. This is a game , people play to have fun and thats wat im going to do and many others regardless of skill level.

People playing to have fun don't bother me one bit. I'm not bitter, and I have plenty of fun with friends who I've known for a very long time now. But that doesn't mean the average person is good at the game, or plays their jobs well. "Well enough" for people with low standards? Sure. Some people value results more than the actual implementation, and that doesn't bother me. Getting a passing grade may be good enough for most people, but that doesn't make it an A.

Being friends with someone has nothing to do with their skill at FFXI. Friends are allowed to suck at video games. They don't suck less because they're friends. But by the same token they're no less of a friend because they suck. Why is it I always see people draw this connection when they're trying to talk down to "higher tier" players "who must have no lives/friends/social skills"? It's really rather sad.

[tarolin]

Only thing sad is that people think there a higher tier and deserve more , im done with this convo. so go hang out with the so called higher tier.

[Greatguardian]

There's a reason it was in quotes... Oh well. This thread is awesome.

[Karbuncle]

Only thing sad is that people think there a higher tier and deserve more , im done with this convo. so go hang out with the so called higher tier.

Seriously? Did Everything he say completely go over your head =.=a? I can't understand if you're trolling or just genuinely don't understand whats going on.

[Mikheli]

anyone who thinks string instrument is unimportant needs to learn about aoe range with nursemaid's harp and lullaby @,@ that's all i'm saying

[SNK]

I'd read most of this thread and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents. I leveled WHM from 62 to 90 in Abyessa mainly because I was sick of the job in normal PT's OUTSIDE of Abyessa which I was forced to deal with gimps who had no idea that level 14 DEX Rings were not going to cut it in Colibri parties.

Now you could say I leeched it to 90 and I wouldn't give a shit because the way I play my WHM I've been told time and again that I play it a lot better then some people who have had it at 75 for years and beyond. It's an easy job that requires you to pay attention so the transition from RDM to WHM for me was just having Cure V and Cure VI which other then that made it easier to do.

Of course one thing which blew my mind a lot was how many WHMs I saw did NOT even have an Enfeebling Build for Slow, Paralyze or Silence. It only took me 3 minutes at most to write out a "decent" build and it makes my job a hell of a lot easier when shit can be slow'd and para'd when an RDM isn't around.

Generally like Greatguardian said, Abyessa in or out makes no damn difference in player skill. If they sucked before Abyessa then chances are they fucking sucked inside Abyessa.

[Yarly]

If they sucked before Abyessa then chances are they fucking sucked inside Abyessa.

quoted for truth.
but it actually boils down to what greatguardian said in ANOTHER thread here
(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4412-Abyssea-End-game-shells-and-my-thoughts-and-oppions-about-them?p=61503#post61503)
when he talks about crappy players getting better when around playing with good players.
the environment makes a lot of a difference.

[SNK]

quoted for truth.
but it actually boils down to what greatguardian said in ANOTHER thread here
(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4412-Abyssea-End-game-shells-and-my-thoughts-and-oppions-about-them?p=61503#post61503)
when he talks about crappy players getting better when around playing with good players.
the environment makes a lot of a difference.

There's a problem with that tho. Even in a better enviroment, some players outright refuse to learn or realize that sometimes the shit they do is retarded and gimped.

There's a reason BG has a thread about gimps that's lasted around 25 remakes with 50+ pages each.

[Tenshibaby]

EDIT: Is this you?

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Gilgamesh/Tenshibaby#home

if so, you should stop right now.
Well since you are the one who doesn't know that 0.8 to 1.0 is a 25% increase, maybe it is YOU who should stop right now. You have nothing on my character, do you? If so, please elaborate. My character has been ranked mostly in the teens ranked on FFXIAH for years before Abyssea, which isn't amazing, but certainly keeps me from being gimp. Maybe you would be so kind as to show us your character, if you are not too ashamed?

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you think FFXIAH ranking somehow prevents that from being a horrible gearset I have bad news for you... and your server.

[Eeek]

Well since you are the one who doesn't know that 0.8 to 1.0 is a 25% increase, maybe it is YOU who should stop right now. You have nothing on my character, do you? If so, please elaborate. My character has been ranked mostly in the teens ranked on FFXIAH for years before Abyssea, which isn't amazing, but certainly keeps me from being gimp. Maybe you would be so kind as to show us your character, if you are not too ashamed?

Not true. Your BST is definitely gimptastic, and the only reason you're ranked so high is due to all the jobs you've leveled. FFXIAH rank has absolutely no bearing on the quality of players.

[Tamoa]

FFXIAH ranking means absolutely nothing. It's flawed because it only takes registered users with their characters linked, into account. Meaning there's a lot of players out there that would rank higher than you, should they ever register. And being ranked high doesn't mean you're not gimp and good at FFXI.

And you can just look up Greatguardian, he isn't hiding his character. And he is far from gimp. Same goes for Raenryong.

[Tenshibaby]

I mentioned before, I grabbed gear that wasn't stored to go grab an NM and have had my character in Ifrit's Cauldron the past month or so, having barely logged on. I have full relic, some AF+1, and some Ferine for BST, but it isn't even my main, so go take your low-level reasoning elsewhere.

[Eeek]

I hear ya, man. Full THF relic is the best gear I own. It's a shame I keep 4/5 of the set on the Porter Moogle.

[Tenshibaby]

And no, FFXIAH isn't perfect because it artificially lets Abyssea leeches go up in rank rather quickly. It also over-values relics and mythics. Outside of this, however, there is not much to go on, other than having a bunch of people try to have a p***ing contest in a forum, which is played out. Aside from that, I didn't get into gear comparisons except for that it irks some people that I got my Maat's cap back when it DID mean something. What can I say? Sour grapes?

Bottom line is that more 90's who leeched suck than 90's who earned heir levels. I don't see how this is not obvious, except when I consider my audience.

[Tenshibaby]

If I were going after something harder than Lindwurm I would have geared up better lol... Just figured I'd camp a dagger for my DNC.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Bottom line is that more 90's who couldn't figure out how to play the game pre-Abyssea suck than 90's who can research their jobs/ask others for tips on how to play it and passed high school math classes... I don't see how this is not obvious, except when I consider my audience.

Fixed that for you

[Tenshibaby]

Hey Neisan_Quetz, there's a lot more to being good at something than researching and asking questions. But then again, I am dealing with people who think all a 90 BRD needs to do to be good is double March.

[HFX7686]

Hey Neisan_Quetz, there's a lot more to being good at something than researching and asking questions, otherwise you'd be ripped and have a girlfriend.

That is an extraordinarily stupid comparison.

[Tamoa]

And no, FFXIAH isn't perfect because it artificially lets Abyssea leeches go up in rank rather quickly. It also over-values relics and mythics. Outside of this, however, there is not much to go on, other than having a bunch of people try to have a p***ing contest in a forum, which is played out. Aside from that, I didn't get into gear comparisons except for that it irks some people that I got my Maat's cap back when it DID mean something. What can I say? Sour grapes?

Bottom line is that more 90's who leeched suck than 90's who earned heir levels. I don't see how this is not obvious, except when I consider my audience.

You realize that Maat's Cap owners used to be called "Jack of all trades, master of none", right?

[Tenshibaby]

That is an extraordinarily stupid comparison.
No, it was a cheap shot, which is why I removed it. Sorry if it hit a nerve.

[Tenshibaby]

You realize that Maat's Cap owners used to be called "Jack of all trades, master of none", right?
By you and who else? Actually I have only heard that in reference to RDM. I guess the implication is that someone with Maat's cap is not good at any job, as opposed to someone who leeched to 90 in Abyssea and is as good as anyone else on the server? What in the world are your criteria for determining skill? Seriously, Maat's cap = gimp, Abyssea leech = god? This is so classic of the new wave of pseudo-elitism.

[HFX7686]

No, it was a cheap shot, which is why I removed it. Sorry if it hit a nerve.

I rather meant that figuring out MMO mathematics through research and being good at the game cannot be compared to figuring out weightlifting plans and being muscular. The two do not compare.

[Ramsos]

Hey Neisan_Quetz, there's a lot more to being good at something than researching and asking questions. But then again, I am dealing with people who think all a 90 BRD needs to do to be good is double March.

Still waiting to hear what you think bards should be using that beats march/march...

[Tenshibaby]

"Being good" was not listed as a qualification, just research and asking questions. Those are not enough to be good. I can research and ask about flying a plane till I can write books on the subject, but it doesn't make me a good pilot.

[Tenshibaby]

Still waiting to hear what you think bards should be using that beats march/march...
lol The Hannity approach...
If you read between the lines you could have figured it out long ago.
Besides, I never said march/march didn't have its place, but that it is not the one-size-fits-all magic combination that makes all BRD's equally good.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There really isn't anything that in this game that is so hard you need more than that to learn how to play a job... even the formulas this game uses for damage calculation aren't much harder than intermediate algebra. Unless you fail at hand-eye coordination / reading logs but then why are you playing an online game in the first place if that is the case?

[Tamoa]

By you and who else? Actually I have only heard that in reference to RDM. I guess the implication is that someone with Maat's cap is not good at any job, as opposed to someone who leeched to 90 in Abyssea and is as good as anyone else on the server? What in the world are your criteria for determining skill? Seriously, Maat's cap = gimp, Abyssea leech = god? This is so classic of the new wave of pseudo-elitism.

Where did I mention abyssea leeching in my previous post? Oh that's right, nowhere.

According to you though, everyone that obtained Maat's Cap before abyssea, smn burns and without a PL, is automatically good at FFXI.

[Ramsos]

If you read between the lines you could have figured it out long ago.


Please, enlighten me.

Aside from situations where you would be giving ballad to a pld or blu, I fail to see any reason why I would ever cast anything other than march/march on melee jobs.

All ive seen in this entire thread is you calling people out, claiming that widely accepted formulas are wrong, while not posting anything to back your claims.

The best part of this entire thread is you calling someone a "haste whore" as if its an insult of some sort. Haste is the single most important stat for melee jobs, I feel sorry for people who think otherwise.

[Komori]

Even if your not an "einstein" at math. I would think the message would at least come across as, "While you might be doing more damage, per hit, per WS or, per spell". Being able to do all more often would greatly add to the damage, and even overhaul it. I'm not particularly good in mathematics, that's my boyfriend's stronghold, but at least that's what I got out of reading greatguardian and Karbuncle's posts.

[magnius]

My God. I don't know how GreatGuardian has not thrown his PC out the freaking window yet. I applaud you. You have more patience than I do. It's why I have stopped posting here. Takes too much effort to subdue my anger.

[RaenRyong]

Well since you are the one who doesn't know that 0.8 to 1.0 is a 25% increase, maybe it is YOU who should stop right now. You have nothing on my character, do you? If so, please elaborate. My character has been ranked mostly in the teens ranked on FFXIAH for years before Abyssea, which isn't amazing, but certainly keeps me from being gimp. Maybe you would be so kind as to show us your character, if you are not too ashamed?

I had a feeling you were going to bring up that figure.

Let's go through the math. Are we assuming 0 level difference and a 1handed weapon?

300/250 = 1.20 cRatio (with condition dLVL=0).

pDIF_min = 0.94
pDIF_max = 1.44
pDIF_average(assuming modal distribution; no proof of this but since I assume it for both, shouldn't hurt) = 1.19

330/250 = 1.32 cRatio

pDIF_min = 1
pDIF_max = 1.58
pDIF_average = 1.29

d(pDIF_min) = +6.4%
d(pDIF_max) = +9.7%
d(pDIF_average) = +8.4%

Predicted increase from adding 30 Attack in this case was 10%. What's the actual increase?


Going from 700 to 770 Attack is less than a 10% increase in damage, not more.

Less than the predicted figure, as GG implied. Level correction can make it more but still... the Attack approximation does work nicely as an approximation.

inb4 you bring up an extreme case of pDIF bounds shifting like on ranged attacks or try to compare maxima and minima after the randomiser to inflate the percentage increases.

Now the math side is out of the way, FFXIAH ranking means nothing. Having a Maat's Cap simply means you have the patience to grind jobs... nothing more. It says nothing about your ability with each individual one, and indeed Maat's Cap is actually a stigma as most pre-Abyssea Maat's Caps were shockingly terrible.

To speak in plain, harsh terms - I would be ashamed of having that gear if I had all of those levelled jobs.

As for my character, bite me: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bahamut/Raenryong

[Khiinroye]

Here's a situation where march/march is the wrong choice:

Daurdabla (lv 90) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18575/daurdabla)

march/march/minuet, or march/march/ballad for plds and blus.

The trials aren't that hard, just very time consuming.

Anyways, what +march value are you using for your numbers? +2 (standard instrument), +3 (instrument and aoidos' manchettes +2 OR 90 ghorn) or +4 (90 ghorn and aiodos' manchettes +2)

And to rog way back at the start of the thread: Yes, your rdm needs to skill divine when they finish raising the level caps--rdm/whm will get repose at lv 96.

[Ramsos]

Here's a situation where march/march is the wrong choice:

Daurdabla (lv 90) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18575/daurdabla)

march/march/minuet, or march/march/ballad for plds and blus.

The trials aren't that hard, just very time consuming.


Seriously? This is your argument? I'm dumbfounded.

[RaenRyong]

I'm 99% sure he's messing around.

[Ramsos]

I'm 99% sure he's messing around.

Its so hard to tell who is trolling and who isnt on these boards, theres such rampant stupidity everywhere you look.

[RaenRyong]

True, I'll give you that.

[Tenshibaby]

As for my character, bite me: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bahamut/Raenryong
Are you just desperate to try to score a cheap point, or were you not paying attention when I said I didn't bring out my stored gear for the easy NM? I am leveling DNC and quick-changed to BST for Valiant knife.
By your logic I could mock you only having one weapon equipped.

And fwiw, I'm not really impressed at all by your gear. You have very little that I don't have, and nothing that I have desired. An almace might be nice, but I haven't cared about relics/mythics/empyreans enough to pursue one, aside from relic gear, of which I have 80 pieces out of 100 last I checked.

And lol @ your Haste-whoreness, rather have people see you with a 1% Haste neck than the Mavi scarf!?

[Ramsos]

Are you just desperate to try to score a cheap point, or were you not paying attention when I said I didn't bring out my stored gear for the easy NM? I am leveling DNC and quick-changed to BST for Valiant knife.
By your logic I could mock you only having one weapon equipped.

And fwiw, I'm not really impressed at all by your gear. You have very little that I don't have, and nothing that I have desired. An almace might be nice, but I haven't cared about relics/mythics/empyreans enough to pursue one, aside from relic gear, of which I have 80 pieces out of 100 last I checked.

And lol @ your Haste-whoreness, rather have people see you with a 1% Haste neck than the Mavi scarf!?

Unless you are capped haste, 1% haste > w/e stats on mavi scarf for TPing. Are you one of those people who "doesnt believe in gear swapping"? If so, it explains alot.

[RaenRyong]

Are you just desperate to try to score a cheap point, or were you not paying attention when I said I didn't bring out my stored gear for the easy NM? I am leveling DNC and quick-changed to BST for Valiant knife.
By your logic I could mock you only having one weapon equipped.

You are using a Jaegar Ring, Diabolos Earring... etc. Why would you even own those?


And fwiw, I'm not really impressed at all by your gear. You have very little that I don't have, and nothing that I have desired. An almace might be nice, but I haven't cared about relics/mythics/empyreans enough to pursue one, aside from relic gear, of which I have 80 pieces out of 100 last I checked.

Most AF2 is trash and your equipment history shows a grand total of two AF3+1 items and no AF3+2 (though I know it can be flawed).


And lol @ your Haste-whoreness, rather have people see you with a 1% Haste neck than the Mavi scarf!?

Rather cap my Haste than have 3.6acc I won't use and 4atk. Though it's scanning wrong gear for some reason... should be Mavi Mintan +2 and an Almah Torque now (PCC when(if) acc needed).

[Rambus]

Most AF2 is trash and your equipment history shows a grand total of two AF3+1 items and no AF3+2 (though I know it can be flawed).



all thse number labels confuse me af3 is the last quest but let me try...

you are saying there is no emp +2 gear that is useless? lets see

SAM set bonus,

SAM body, could use more stats ( like str etc)
WAR body, see sam
WAR head is usless. (lest +1 is, +2 i guess can be debated vs twlight for ws)
SCH legs (both +1 and +2)

there is most liky more but that is just off the top my head ( and SCH pants really irks me)

[Ramsos]

all thse number labels confuse me af3 is the last quest but let me try...

you are saying there is no emp +2 gear that is useless? lets see

SAM set bonus,

SAM body, could use more stats ( like str etc)
WAR body, see sam
WAR head is usless. (lest +1 is, +2 i guess can be debated vs twlight for ws)
SCH legs (both +1 and +2)

there is most liky more but that is just off the top my head ( and SCH pants really irks me)

What are you talking about? RaenRyong was pointing out that Tenshibaby has no af3+2(emp+2 in your vocab) and only 2 pieces of af3+1(emp+1 in your vocab). Nothing was said about af3+2 being useless or not. He said that most af2(relic in your vocab probably) is useless and that having 80/100 af2 pieces is not an accomplishment(which it isnt, all it proves is you spend way too much time in dynamis).

[RaenRyong]

SAM body, could use more stats ( like str etc)
WAR body, see sam

Store TP isn't a good stat? Also, macros.


WAR head is usless. (lest +1 is, +2 i guess can be debated vs twlight for ws)

Given Attack does nothing for WAR a lot of the time...


SCH legs (both +1 and +2)

Best enfeebling legs or am I missing something? Granted you don't have to do much of that.

Compared to Relic Gear where at least 90% of it is absolutely useless...

[Tenshibaby]

lol So 80 pieces of relic is no accomplishment, but 2 pieces of AF3+2 is. I love how desperate some of you are to prove your point, and how oblivious you are to how wrong you are.

[SNK]

And lol @ your Haste-whoreness, rather have people see you with a 1% Haste neck than the Mavi scarf!?

Mavi Scarf is uttertly worthless if you have capped blu merits. The added skill won't push you into a new teir and the only reason you would even want it is just to be a completist.

[RaenRyong]

wat

I swear to god some people need reading comprehension lessons.

I was insulting your horrendous gear (unless FFXIAH is inaccurate) while pointing out that you have ZERO AF3+2 and TWO pieces of AF3+1. I certainly wouldn't be bragging about two pieces of AF3+2.

And no, 80 pieces of relic is no accomplishment. Maat's Cap is no accomplishment. Do you even use gear swaps? You seem wayyyy 2006ish.

[RaenRyong]

May as well go listing how much Assault armour you have, who cares if most of it is worthless? I suppose an Abyssea burner like me wouldn't understand that good things like March and proper gear is better than having a load of terribly undergeared jobs and no understanding of commonly available game mechanics.

[Greatguardian]

I just love how no one has pointed out that he made a jab at Raen "Only having one sword", when anyone who's even SEEN an Empyrean DD on FFXIAH knows that all Empyrean Weapons show up as blank slots. He's main-handing an Almace, you Trog.

[Tenshibaby]

And no, 80 pieces of relic is no accomplishment. Maat's Cap is no accomplishment. Do you even use gear swaps? You seem wayyyy 2006ish.
Yet this made it to the top of your FFXIAH page (not that most of it wasn't available in your character info:
Maat: 03/06/07; 21:10PM. 1/2. ~ 75 Dark Knight - 27/07/07 ~ 75 Paladin - 13/01/08 ~ 75 Thief - 22/06/08 ~ 75 Red Mage - 28/02/09 ~ 75 Dragoon - 12/08/09 ~ Full Homam - 21/12/2008 ~ Mithra ass = pageviews!

You don't see me throwing around my having gear, but I can tell you this: if you summed up all my gear and what it takes to get that, and did the same for your gear, you'd exit quietly and suddenly from this thread.

As for gear swapping, it's really not a redeeming quality of the game. I do use it (on BST it is almost required, not that you'd know).

Basically you guys have summed it up like all blowhards: gear = skill and following the trend = being the best job you can be. I don't use my gear to back up my skill, but I certainly could. Don't be fooled by what is there on FFXIAH. I'd put the skill of someone who had Salvage or Abjuration gear in 2009 against someone who has full AF3+2 today. The Abyssea NM system is a joke, and not indicative of skill IN THE SLIGHTEST.

[Greatguardian]

So anyone with half an ounce skill would have at least one full set of AF3+2 by now?

Agreed.

[Rambus]

Best enfeebling legs or am I missing something? Granted you don't have to do much of that.



So? that extra skill is useless esp on a level 75 base game, 377 or w/e i totled without them is plenty.
I can also say the +1>+2 is stupid. I think having 4 gear haste of +1>+2 is also dumb that the effect is added to magic haste, so byakko may be better in some sitatuion

Relic is macro useful more then 90% useless

and I want to know why some parts/jobs get full time emp +2 others are macro and others are useless, thats imbalance right there.

what happened to trying to compress gear to help inventory space?

[Tenshibaby]

I just love how no one has pointed out that he made a jab at Raen "Only having one sword", when anyone who's even SEEN an Empyrean DD on FFXIAH knows that all Empyrean Weapons show up as blank slots. He's main-handing an Almace, you Trog.

Is "Trog" some word you like to call people that you are trying to get to catch on, or do other people actually use that word?
You are truly dense. I was making a point at his logical fallacy of attacking me by the gear I had on at the time FFXIAH scanned me. Obviously (to those of us who earned our jobs) you can't even equip a sub-weapon without a main one equipped. Didn't you know that?

No, I don't say "Oh let me get all my pimp gear out of storage and mule some other stuff to make room and go kill an easy NM by pet swapping (meaning I don't need heavy DD gear, not that you'd know) JUST IN CASE some noobs on a forum spot it and try to use my gear to dismiss my accusation that people who can't level their jobs to 90 shouldn't be 90".

[RaenRyong]

Yet this made it to the top of your FFXIAH page (not that most of it wasn't available in your character info:
Maat: 03/06/07; 21:10PM. 1/2. ~ 75 Dark Knight - 27/07/07 ~ 75 Paladin - 13/01/08 ~ 75 Thief - 22/06/08 ~ 75 Red Mage - 28/02/09 ~ 75 Dragoon - 12/08/09 ~ Full Homam - 21/12/2008 ~ Mithra ass = pageviews!

The amount of people that try to use that to troll me makes it worth leaving it up.


You don't see me throwing around my having gear, but I can tell you this: if you summed up all my gear and what it takes to get that, and did the same for your gear, you'd exit quietly and suddenly from this thread.

How about useful gear?


As for gear swapping, it's really not a redeeming quality of the game. I do use it (on BST it is almost required, not that you'd know).

Ya, I don't have a job levelled so I have no idea how to gear it obviously.


Basically you guys have summed it up like all blowhards: gear = skill and following the trend = being the best job you can be. I don't use my gear to back up my skill, but I certainly could. Don't be fooled by what is there on FFXIAH. I'd put the skill of someone who had Salvage or Abjuration gear in 2009 against someone who has full AF3+2 today. The Abyssea NM system is a joke, and not indicative of skill IN THE SLIGHTEST.

So, skilful player, where is your empyrean armour?

[RaenRyong]

You are truly dense. I was making a point at his logical fallacy of attacking me by the gear I had on at the time FFXIAH scanned me.

Wearing random stuff to quickly run out to somewhere = fine, we've all done it.

There is just no reason to own some of the items you do, and that is if I had one job. Since you have so many, I wouldn't even CONSIDER it.

[Rambus]

lol So 80 pieces of relic is no accomplishment, but 2 pieces of AF3+2 is. I love how desperate some of you are to prove your point, and how oblivious you are to how wrong you are.

I would say 2 emp +2 ( this af3+3? can we use different words? thsi is confusing to me)

I would say 2 emp+2 is more "success" then 80 relic gear, it is more work then waiting for a drop.

unless you actually worked at all those dyna then yeah that is different accomplishment. I will not say one is better then other.

What are you talking about? RaenRyong was pointing out that Tenshibaby has no af3+2(emp+2 in your vocab) and only 2 pieces of af3+1(emp+1 in your vocab). Nothing was said about af3+2 being useless or not. He said that most af2(relic in your vocab probably) is useless and that having 80/100 af2 pieces is not an accomplishment(which it isnt, all it proves is you spend way too much time in dynamis).

sorry i missed the e-peen fight.

[Tenshibaby]

So anyone with half an ounce skill would have at least one full set of AF3+2 by now?

Agreed.
So having full AF3+2 is indicative of skill, yet Maat's cap means you lack skill, and getting to 90 from below 65 in Abyssea gives the presumption of true prowess at your job?

Is this Wonderland, where up is down and left is right and Greatguardian lives up to his name?

[SNK]

Is "Trog" some word you like to call people that you are trying to get to catch on, or do other people actually use that word?

You're the one who said he was only using one sword.~

[Kazen]

No, this is a sad and sorry little land where you completely lack any sort of reading comprehension. It's kinda funny, I almost feel bad for you.

[Tenshibaby]

There is just no reason to own some of the items you do, and that is if I had one job. Since you have so many, I wouldn't even CONSIDER it.
You can't see why I'd have a Jaeger ring on me? You know it is the best ACC for its level right? You know if I am soloing mid-level jobs, the next best ring is Ecphoria, and even that is only marginally better. Also I am skilling Throwing on my DNC, so I haven't bothered to change it. Sue me. When I get all my jobs out of Jaeger ring level, I'll toss it.