Make Blue Magic easier to learn?

[Deifact]

Hi everyone!

So I recently started a new character to get a feel for the new start of the game with RoE etc. And unlocked BLU yesterday.

It's great that levelling up is so fast and easy now but the problem I have is that while trying to learn a blue magic spell I level about 5 levels just trying to learn it.

Then I'm in a weird situation where I'm punching easy prey monsters while naked just to feed them TP because even in starter gear I'm so overleveled that they hit me for 0.

It's not a huge issue, I could go find higher level mobs, but I think it'd improve the flow of the class levelling experience if the blue magic learn rate was increased to match the new faster exp rate.

What do people think?

[Mirage]

If you see a blue magic spell, you should always learn it. However, if they change this, spell scrolls for other jobs should increase too, seeing as the low chance of learning blue magic is probably to emulate the way spell scrolls aren't guaranteed drops for other mages, so that you have to "farm" to get both types of spells.

[Brightshadow]

The problem with learning spells is not that its hard, the problem is that monsters usually have anywhere from 3-8 monster skills making your odds of seeing the spell very low.

[Lithera]

Even when they do the move until one gets their AF hands and top getting the hey you just learned _____ can turn off many people. Heck even with those and capped or close to capped skills learning a spell when the mob has used the one you want can make you want to just quit at times. Then if you did go and burn your blue to 99 once you're in ToAU spells you start to get into well I need to ask for help in killing these due to the weapon lackage and other problems.

[Deifact]

The problem with learning spells is not that its hard, the problem is that monsters usually have anywhere from 3-8 monster skills making your odds of seeing the spell very low.

Yeah this is also really annoying! I never realised some monsters had so many TP moves until I levelled BLU! This can't really be helped though...

[Damane]

Yeah this is also really annoying! I never realised some monsters had so many TP moves until I levelled BLU! This can't really be helped though...

@OP: your Blue magic skill needs to be withing 10 lvls of the spells lvl. If your Blue magic skill is underlvld you wont learn a spell that is 10 lvls higher then your CURRENT blue magic skill.

example: lvl 99 BLU has the blue magic skill 30 (like a lvl 10 blu would have), he will never be able to learn lets say refueling (lvl 49 spell), because his blue magic skill is at 30 ( lvl 10 BLU) and not capped, even tough he is a lvl 99 BLU

[Mirage]

Why are you telling us this? I don't think anyone was wondering...

[Rubicant82]

Learning Blue Magic is a science, and it sucks. Even with the AF gloves, capped skill and skill gear there are several factors that contribute to if the spell is learned or not.
I would hope that SE increases the ability to learn the magic esp with the magic that requires unbridled learning.

[Mirage]

What other factors are there?

[Gannon]

What other factors are there?

Only factors are your skill vs. the level of the spell and if you are wearing your AF hands or not.

[Blah]

Only factors are your skill vs. the level of the spell and if you are wearing your AF hands or not.
...Sorry but...I don't.play blue mage and even I know that's not all there is to it, and if they really are trying to emulate scroll drops then it would definitely be a lot easier bc all you need is treasure hunter for most scrolls to drop so learning the spell should be just as easy, that is that the blue mage should just have a high enough charisma or something like that. But of course the problem also is that most mobs act like jerks and don't use the skill. Blue mage in my linkshell one time...all he was trying to learn was headbutt, went for Quadavs because they use it so often....would not use it...not even once in 3 whole hours. Even tried the mandys...same thing...gave up and just went for something else entirely.

[Gannon]

...Sorry but...I don't.play blue mage and even I know that's not all there is to it,

That is all there is too it, aside from being lucky and seeing the move needed and actually learning it.


Blue mage in my linkshell one time...all he was trying to learn was headbutt, went for Quadavs because they use it so often....would not use it...not even once in 3 whole hours. Even tried the mandys...same thing...gave up and just went for something else entirely.

Mandragoras can only teach Wild Oats, and Dream Flower. Headbutt can only be learned from Quadav and they have about a 1 out 5 chance of using the TP move.
Since you are self-admittedly not a Blue Mage, this link is for your viewing pleasure: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blue_Magic

[Kaiichi]

I'll start off with a short story. I level BLU with my family long ago, learning spells was fun. The End. That was only to about 50, needless to say, it's so much more fun with more BLU racing to cap skills etc. However, this is usually not the case as you no longer see parties of 5 BLUs and a COR or BRD. From 50-99 I did end up in an abbysea pt and that left me lacking in skill and having to solo my spells. After the journey, I am (well I was) completely done learning spell. So here are my tips.

1. It's okay to skip a spell, you can com back to it.
2. Pick up a couple of cheep clubs, the lower the DMG the better. Sub NIN or DNC and start swinging (I used moogle and chocobo wands).
3. Monsters tend to use TP more frequently at 1/2 there HP as they dont wait till 200% as they do at full HP.
4. Take the time to raise your actual Blue Magic Skill.
6. Don't spend too much time on one monster, there will always be more.
7. Try to have fun with it, when becoming frustrated with a spell, come back to it later after you've had a moment to chill.
8. Keep in mind how awesome Blue Magic spells are and know that eventually they will be yours.
9. Remember. Blue Magic is Free. Although you could farm every Bard spell. There is one that comes to mind that still only drops from an ENM. That Shit is capped at 75. Ant no one have time for that.
10. Lastly, as I tell my children, it's a game. Have fun or turn it off.

[Blah]

That is all there is too it, aside from being lucky and seeing the move needed and actually learning it.



Mandragoras can only teach Wild Oats, and Dream Flower. Headbutt can only be learned from Quadav and they have about a 1 out 5 chance of using the TP move.
Since you are self-admittedly not a Blue Mage, this link is for your viewing pleasure: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blue_Magic
All right I believe some clarification is in order, since I may not play blues but I do know for a fact mandys use headbutt, are you saying that they DON'T or are you saying that even though they do blues don't and never can learn it from them? Because that's such a cheap, weak BOGUS restriction it doesn't make sense.

[Blah]

And by the way I am actually talking pre-75 era so....yea this info may/ may not be accurate as it pertains to what monster can/cannot be allowed to teach things like headbutt and stuff that more than one monster uses.

[Deifact]

Thanks for the tips Kaiichi. Just to clarify I have a higher level BLU on my other character, I guess this thread was more to see how people feel the rate of learning blue magic is compared to the speed of which characters now level up.

It's quite easy now to get to level 30 in a few hours, and in that time you will have plenty of sparks to convert into gil to buy any scrolls you would need, but you can't do this as a BLU.

I do find learning spells fun, when it's spread out. It was spread out when I levelled my main BLU because it took hours just to get to level 10, bit the game is more fast paced and it just seems like BLU lags behind a bit.

Blah there are a few monsters that use the same named ability but you can't learn their spell. Mandragora and Quadav with Headbutt is one (you learn from Quadav) and I think Crawler and Hounds are another with Poison Breath (you learn from Hounds). Best place is use the wiki :-).

[Ravenmore]

All right I believe some clarification is in order, since I may not play blues but I do know for a fact mandys use headbutt, are you saying that they DON'T or are you saying that even though they do blues don't and never can learn it from them? Because that's such a cheap, weak BOGUS restriction it doesn't make sense.

Blus can not learn headbutt from mandies at all and can only be learned from Quads. it is SE reasoning and they get to say what is learnable from which mobs. You also can not learn blu magic spells used by blu mage mobs(like cocoon, feather storm so). Nothing has changed since 75 as far as learning goes and being in 10 skill points and the af gloves are the only thing out side of how bad the RNG hates you that day to learn blu.

[Blah]

Like I said though it doesn't make sense, if they use it you should be able to learn it from them. To jerk blue around in such a manner is Bull.

[Mirage]

I'm challenging anyone who claims there to be "more to it" to deliver a complete list over what "more" things there are to it, and evidence backing up their claims.

@gannon
I know, i just wanted to hear what they would say

[Blah]

I'm challenging anyone who claims there to be "more to it" to deliver a complete list over what "more" things there are to it, and evidence backing up their claims.

@gannon
I know, i just wanted to hear what they would say
*volunteers to have the hand chopped off* Unfortunately what I suspect is not possible bc it technically "isn't there". Still I believe Blue mage, Corsair and Thief rely heavily on the "invisible" attribute luck. Why it isn't there? Because then they'd have people harping on them about that and how they calculate it and since they don't want to explain/change they leave it off. I know, I know if it isn't there it's more than likely not a big factor but still that is what I think is attributing to the ease/ difficulty of learning...or not learning the blue magic. *waits for the hatchet*

[Mirage]

If it technically isn't there, then it isn't there.

If there is no evidence of something being in the game, then there is no reason to think that this something is in the game. If there is no evidence of a hidden attribute that we don't know of, there is no reason to think that it exists. Burdern of proof etc.

Would you take my word for it if I said there is a currently unknown statistic that affects hit rate, without wanting to tell anyone how i found this out?

[Blah]

Honestly Mirage, since it IS SE we're talking about, yes since they leave stuff unquantified to make things easier on themselves. And to say that there's "no evidence" of luck being in the game at all? You're just being a might bit close-minded. It is the very thing that drives the thief job or are you going to try to deny that?

[Mirage]

Yeah, why not. In what way does a secret hidden luck stat drive the thief job? Please elaborate.

[Blah]

They're steal, treasure hunter and even gilfinder rely on luck, why are you acting as if it doesn't? Honestly you seem to want to pick a argument just for arguments sake. Just because it isn't quantified (not on our list of stats or abilities) does not mean it isn't-well you know what forget it I'll just say this: I stand by my word there is either a luck attribute or effect at work. It effects all jobs but with jobs of this genre (blue, thief, corsair and any future jobs they come out with like it) it effects them much more. Go on and keep picking an argument about it.

[Deifact]

I guess Mirage probably means that there isn't a luck stat that has an influence. I.e. luck is the same for each player.

It's unlikely that "luck" is weighted in any way that isn't relatively transparent. For example, there's no hidden luck stat given to a character at creation that influences random number generation. (Its unlikely anyway). But treasure hunter does increase the chance of an item dropping, like BLU gloves increase the chance of learning a skill.

It's all pseudo random number generation, but they could increase the 'success' range of RNG when learning blue magic to make it easier.

[Kaiichi]

@Deifact Well I'm glade to be of any help, if any at all. But as far as the learning goes, I personally feel that it is a good balance of sweet and sour. However, I do wish that the NM spells where a little more forgiving as they are NMs, and it takes a bit to even get to them. I do know that there are alternatives, but that rout can be just as time consuming.

[Mirage]

I'll stop picking arguments when you stop being wrong, Blah. Thief does not rely on luck any more than a warrior relies on luck to not miss their targets. There is no evidence of a secret luck stat that affects certain jobs differently than others. Getting a drop on thf isn't affected by a hidden stat, even if you are lucky if you get your wanted drop.

No matter if it is an item drop or an accuracy check, all the game does is roll a virtual dice, and if it lands within a certain range, things happen. The stats that affect these ranges are known for most things (accuracy and evasion for a hit rate roll, drop rate tables for an item drop, with TH affecting this in some way. In this case, it is the TH trait that affects it, not an unknown hidden statistic), and if you think there is an additional unknown stat that affects this range that no one else know about, feel free to produce evidence for it.

[Blah]

I'll stop picking arguments when you stop being wrong, Blah. Thief does not rely on luck any more than a warrior relies on luck to not miss their targets. There is no evidence of a secret luck stat that affects certain jobs differently than others. Getting a drop on thf isn't affected by a hidden stat, even if you are lucky if you get your wanted drop.

No matter if it is an item drop or an accuracy check, all the game does is roll a virtual dice, and if it lands within a certain range, things happen. The stats that affect these ranges are known for most things (accuracy and evasion for a hit rate roll, drop rate tables for an item drop, with TH affecting this in some way. In this case, it is the TH trait that affects it, not an unknown hidden statistic), and if you think there is an additional unknown stat that affects this range that no one else know about, feel free to produce evidence for it.
No, I'm not wrong it's just not quantified so technically you get to "win" the argument which is why you decided to pick it in the 1st place.

[Gannon]

No, I'm not wrong it's just not quantified so technically you get to "win" the argument which is why you decided to pick it in the 1st place.

When you can back your arguments with more than just what you think or how you feel, then you can win. You need to provide cold, hard facts to sway other people to your line of thinking. This is why Mirage wins. Mirage is providing facts that have been proven via player testing or SE explaining over the course of 11 years.

[Blah]

I'll not hijack the thread any longer, I'll simply make another and if you all are still in an argumentative mood you can follow me over there.

[Mirage]

No, I'm not wrong it's just not quantified so technically you get to "win" the argument which is why you decided to pick it in the 1st place.

It's not "not quantifiable", it's not real. Or rather, to be more scientific I should say: There is no evidence of it being real, and you haven't made an effort to find any such evidence either.

And yeah, I try (though admittedly I sometimes fail) not to pick arguments I don't think I can win. That's a bad thing?

[Karbuncle]

No, I'm not wrong it's just not quantified so technically you get to "win" the argument which is why you decided to pick it in the 1st place.

Actually, apologizes for any appearance of rudeness, but you're quite wrong, There's no evidence of a luck skill or stat. You're confusing a Random Number Generator with hidden stats. The only thing at work behind the scenes is a series of mathematics. Everything you describe is pure and simple a Random Number Generator at work. Treasure Hunter helps us get more drops, but its a % increase with diminishing returns as TH rises... Gilfinder doesn't have luck, its a Flat % increase, and the ammount of gil mobs drop is randomized to an extent, For example

Goblins Level 1-20: Drop 5-20 Gil, randomly. assuming Gilfinder is 50% more gil, we can then say a THF killing a goblin will get about 7~30 gil a kill. No luck involved, just randomized numbers and variables.

Same can be said for TH... You have a mob with 10% Drop, TH1 maybe brings it to 20, TH2 to 25, TH3 to 27, TH4 to 28, TH5 to 29, TH6 to 29.5, so on... Just diminishing returns and random chance.

Now the above isn't exact numbers, just an example for the basic principle. Regardless, there is simply no evidence, in 12 years of this game, that a hidden LUCK stat exists and plays a role, because most formula are well known and its pretty hard to program luck into numbers and variables. Regardless. On topic, my worst spree on BLU spells was Self-Destruct. Took a little over 100 tries. Was in the right skill range and everything, I eventually learned it, but over 100 tries... RNG was beating me.

[Dreamin]

I love how someone who is NOT a BLU that has NEVER had to spell hunt on BLU comes in and trying to tell the BLU how the spell learning SHOULD be even though it's been years since the BLU community has figured out that other than skills and af hands (or just skills pre af levels), the rest are just up to the SE's RNG GOD. [I would guess she's a new player that does not know the amount of resources/information the FFXI community has already compiled on the game].

The only reason she doesn't KNOW or understands why one cannot learn Head Butt from a Mandragora is that the Head Butt that IS on the BLU spell list i the one that only Quadav uses and it is the one that has a STUN effect. Whereas the Head Butt that Mandragora uses has a KNOCKBACK effect. It's unfortunated that they are NAMED the same but they are completely different spells altogether.

Tell your friends to just use the resources that are already listed on the BLU section of the old wiki. It should contain several different spell-locations or just spell hunting guide on there and just use that. For anything pre-75, it's probably as good as there is.

[Blah]

So are you telling me that ultimately you don't believe that you should have both headbutts, or both versions of any spell? Or are you saying it doesn't matter to you one way or another to have a headbutt that stuns or a headbutt that knocks back? Or is it that it would be too hard to categorize so not worth the bother? I know there aren't many of the beastmens' abilities that overlap but if not categorized properly it can be more of a headache that you blues don't need.

[Gannon]

I just see the two different Head Butts (three if you count Adamantoise's version of Head Butt) as completely different and unrelated moves that happen to share the same name. BLUs usually have 1 or two moves from each mob type in the game atm, not counting newer mobs from Adoulin and some NM only type mobs.
Also, knock back is worthless since mobs just slide back into place as if it never happened.

[Blah]

Isn't it supposed to interrupt their spell at least? I mean if a well timed knock back doesn't interrupt at least a spell...

[Gannon]

Isn't it supposed to interrupt their spell at least? I mean if a well timed knock back doesn't interrupt at least a spell...
I've tried that back in the day with other knock back blue magic and it never works.

[Blah]

Well then I give a hearty boooooooo because they've interrupted many of my spells with that knock back feature it just Isn't fair none of ours does the same. :(

[Lithera]

Part of the reason why blue spells with certain effects don't work the same way as the mob's version is that job balance thing. Oh and then there would be thousand of threads of omfg blu is OP please nerf it into oblivion.

[Dreamin]

Similar to BST, BLU does need to know the Beast Strength-Weakness, basically the whole mob family eco-system. If you use a spell from a family that is weak to a mob from a family, your spell could miss/not take effect/etc. etc. Also, depending on whether your spell is magic or physically, you'll also have to deal with acc/macc, int/mnd, etc, etc. [And magical spell would also falls under the elemental strength-weakness as well]. blu magic skills affect both your physical and magical spell, etc. etc.

It's not a simple job that anyone can just pick up and play (to some extend).

[Lithera]

Yet further down the line to the newest spells and mobs the ecosystem is semi ignored

[Blah]

Similar to BST, BLU does need to know the Beast Strength-Weakness, basically the whole mob family eco-system. If you use a spell from a family that is weak to a mob from a family, your spell could miss/not take effect/etc. etc. Also, depending on whether your spell is magic or physically, you'll also have to deal with acc/macc, int/mnd, etc, etc. [And magical spell would also falls under the elemental strength-weakness as well]. blu magic skills affect both your physical and magical spell, etc. etc.

It's not a simple job that anyone can just pick up and play (to some extend).
Yeah but I was talking about that we all (even the beasties) have to stand still to cast a magic spell and as soon as we/they move if it isn't at 70% it gets interrupted or it's supposed to. They knock us all the time to interrupt our spells so if we time our knock backs it should do the same especially blue.