Thank you for making both the grind and rewards of the Job Point system so terrible.

[scaevola]

I was worried I was going to be tempted to actually do it!

(seriously though, guys; I get you want this to be a long grind but I could finish the coursework for a Master's Degree in fewer man-hours than it would take to cap an enhancement the way you have it set up right now)

[Feary]

lol its as not even been 3 hours? lol

[leorez]

though i have noticed it will take some time to cap, its not that bad...but sadly the fact that the vast majority of the enhancements are flat out crap. At least BLU got something nice lol.

[Mirage]

I'm suspecting they'll add a lot more things to spend points on in coming updates.

[Aeron]

one can only hope they will listen to the vast majority of players that are saying how horrible this system and the augments are.

[Peepiopi]

Yeah, I kind of found these job enhancements pretty disappointing, and not overly useful. Figured it'd be a good opportunity to give the rest of the 22 jobs some benefits that would make them more useful at endgame, but I see nothing that's really going to change the status quo of "PLD, WHM, BRD, RNG, COR, MNK" only shouts.

I'm really hoping I'm over-reacting and that there will be better job enhancements as you get more points or something. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was really looking forward to this version update because of the Job Point system only to find it a bit lacking. It's really killed my motivation to keep playing this game since it's frustratingly hard for folks like me to get invitations to AA fights with my favorite jobs.

So far the best part of this version update was that you can skill up in reives now. I'm still not sure why it wasn't that way from the beginning though >.>

[Mirage]

Put it this way, there's no point in making UI windows as large as they are if no job is going to have more than 2 enhancements ever.

[Ravenmore]

I'm kinda impressed that it is as good as it is, I was expecting worse. The CP are about in line with what I was expecting. SE did seem to think though making the dungeon mobs hard enough to make them unattractive to trust parties but on the other hand now these mobs are hard enough to need the old merit set ups and avoiding of certain mob types so double edge sword and what not.

[Brightshadow]

They should just make it merit Category 3 also why no abyssea are they trying to kill the only form of experience parties that still exists?

[Siviard]

They should just make it merit Category 3 also why no abyssea are they trying to kill the only form of experience parties that still exists?

You, sir, are being laughed at by my entire linkshell. You have brought much joy and laughter to my LS by your simple post. Since you're new around here, I'll give you a little tidbit of information. ABYSSEA KILLED EXP PARTIES!

GEEZ!!!!

The point of the old school EXP parties was to LEARN YOUR JOB AND NOT BE A LAZY LEECHIN' BUM!

[Behemothx]

You, sir, are being laughed at by my entire linkshell. You have brought much joy and laughter to my LS by your simple post. Since you're new around here, I'll give you a little tidbit of information. ABYSSEA KILLED EXP PARTIES!

GEEZ!!!!

The point of the old school EXP parties was to LEARN YOUR JOB AND NOT BE A LAZY LEECHIN' BUM!

If you had to grind through thousands of pink birds to learn your jobs, you're the funny one here.

[Siviard]

If you had to grind through thousands of pink birds to learn your jobs, you're the funny one here.

And if you got your kicks killing worm after worm after worm (wouldn't shock me if you paid someone to cleave while you AFK leeched too) while getting too much EXP too fast and ending up with a vastly underskilled Lv. 99 job, I think it's you that's being laughed at.

I'd challenge you to level BST from 1 to 75 without using NPCs or EXP Ring bonuses, but chances are, you already leech'd that too.

[Quedari]

Yes, please, let's go back to the days of no one getting invites for many hours unless they were BRD or possibly WAR, SAM, or RDM. I totally miss the pink bird grinding for hours to only get 2 merits. I think people QQing about ye old xp pt are forgetting that there were just as many stupid people back then as there are now.

[Demonjustin]

You, sir, are being laughed at by my entire linkshell. You have brought much joy and laughter to my LS by your simple post. Since you're new around here, I'll give you a little tidbit of information. ABYSSEA KILLED EXP PARTIES!

GEEZ!!!!

The point of the old school EXP parties was to LEARN YOUR JOB AND NOT BE A LAZY LEECHIN' BUM!Well since the logical retort has been made. I just want to point out that what he said was...
are they trying to kill the only form of experience parties that still exists?As in, that are still present, not as in that ever were. His statement is true because old parties are dead and have been dead quite some time, they are not parties 'that still exist' so by laughing at that post you are pointing out your failure to read it properly, nothing more.

[Siviard]

Yes, please, let's go back to the days of no one getting invites for many hours unless they were BRD or possibly WAR, SAM, or RDM. I totally miss the pink bird grinding for hours to only get 2 merits. I think people QQing about ye old xp pt are forgetting that there were just as many stupid people back then as there are now.

Agreed, but take into consideration that the jobs that got some "not so desired" Job Point categories will most likely choose to not get Job Points on that job at all until a future update gives them something good enough to give them a reason to get onto that job and begin accumulating Job Points. Sadly, SAM fell into that category along with DRG.

The pet jobs got very good stuff to upgrade via Job Points but who's going to invite a BST SMN or PUP? Solo play for them, and to be honest, that's how I played most of my jobs and I'm totally cool with that.

Kudos to SE for the Job Points system! BIG WIN in my book!

[Siviard]

Well since the logical retort has been made. I just want to point out that what he said was...As in, that are still present, not as in that ever were. His statement is true because old parties are dead and have been dead quite some time, they are not parties 'that still exist' so by laughing at that post you are pointing out your failure to read it properly, nothing more.

No Justin. This is what me and my LS saw. I don't know how to do the multi-quoting that you're doing so I'll just use ye olde "quote marks"...

"are they trying to kill the only form of experience parties that still exists"

Which led us to believe that his main complaint was that all people ever do anymore is exp in Abyssea, and since Abyssea was excluded from the Job Points system, that it would altogether kill Abyssea parties.
The real issue is, if Abyssea hadn't been excluded from the Job Point system, there would be AFK leechers getting Job Points all over the place. Which is something I'm sure SE did not want to happen.

The sad truth for the Abyssea EXP'ers is, they now have to learn how to get EXP in the field. No atma, no +50 buff to each stat, no easy 600+ EXP per kill. Nothing. OMG you actually have to put in WORK for these points.

I've said my piece. I'm out. I'll enjoy reading further complaints from people here on how getting Job Points is too hard and takes too long and the like. hehe

[Demonjustin]

No Justin. This is what me and my LS saw. I don't know how to do the multi-quoting that you're doing so I'll just use ye olde "quote marks"...

"are they trying to kill the only form of experience parties that still exists"

Which led us to believe that his main complaint was that all people ever do anymore is exp in Abyssea, and since Abyssea was excluded from the Job Points system, that it would altogether kill Abyssea parties.Not trying to nit pick, but like I said...
by laughing at that post you are pointing out your failure to read it properly, nothing more.As for multi-quoting you just put [] with QUOTE inside of it, then the same thing but with a / in it, like so [/QUOTE] in between these two sets you just put whatever you're quoting.



In either case, to be on topic.



I hate the Job Points, but am fine with the system to obtain them. Obtainment takes a little time, my only issue lies in the fact that the ones for the jobs I play most, WHM and RDM, seem worthless to me. Less enmity on Divine Seal cures, MP from Benediction, neither one help me much on WHM since I never use Divine Seal or Benediction, then again, I don't play WHM much so it's less important to me. The RDM ones are just dumb in my opinion. While I will get some small benefit from the Convert bonus, it only helps when meleeing in a few specific situations, and the Chainspell bonus feels lackluster since Chainspell is used for high tier spells which get the lowest bonus from Magic Damage, so by giving me 20 Magic Damage during it I effectively gained like 25 DMG on my Stone IVs, yay. Basically my issue lies more with the reward, less with the content.

[Peepiopi]

The pet jobs got very good stuff to upgrade via Job Points but who's going to invite a BST SMN or PUP? Solo play for them, and to be honest, that's how I played most of my jobs and I'm totally cool with that.

There are no solo-specialists anymore. Once upon a time BST and PUP were solo specialists because they were a couple of very few jobs that could level up to 75 on their own. Because of that, they were often excluded entirely from exp parties even if they were looking to join one. Now, every job can solo to 99 if they wanted to, so that "solo-job" categorization doesn't really apply to any jobs anymore. In fact, with the current gear, there are several jobs that can solo Adoulin areas just as well, if not better, than bst and pup.

These days, any job that is relegated to soloing outdated content and reives because they can't get invites to Delve, AAs, and Ra'Kaznar Skirmishes are basically today's solo-jobs now, which pretty much makes up all but 6 or 7 jobs in the game at the moment. So being called a "solo job" isn't quite as cool as it used to be. It just means your job choice isn't considered good enough for endgame. So I don't really think that just because pet jobs used to be good soloers is a good reason to assign them to "solo play only". I think it's time mentalities like that changed.

I also agree with Demonjustin. Obtaining the job points definitely aren't the problem. They shouldn't be obtainable in Abyssea. Worm parties are boring, and too many people afk through it. And it's not hard to get exp in other ways. Soloing 105+ mobs in chains for example gets a bunch of experience. But the enhancements do really suck at the moment. A few jobs got decent ehancements, but for most jobs, they're negligible benefits.

[Ravenmore]

You, sir, are being laughed at by my entire linkshell. You have brought much joy and laughter to my LS by your simple post. Since you're new around here, I'll give you a little tidbit of information. ABYSSEA KILLED EXP PARTIES!

GEEZ!!!!

The point of the old school EXP parties was to LEARN YOUR JOB AND NOT BE A LAZY LEECHIN' BUM!

LOL and now you are being laughed at. EXp parties taught you one thing and that was how to get exp. Didn't teach rdms to chainspell stun or gear for it and didn't teach DDa how to gear for something harder then Ts. Thfs learned really fast that hate control wasn't their job at endgame and only reason they got to hang around was to tag the mob once to put TH on it and then kicked from the party to get a real DD back in that could do hate control better as /thf then real thfs.

But really old exp parties taught people to leech just like 18 man aby parties right up to 75 then people started caring how bad the gimps performed cause now you had more people too choose from so didn't have to deal with them.

[machini]

Are we ignoring the fact that it's going to take, even if it's only 1 job point per level of job point system option, 1.8 million experience points to get something maxed out? That's at a minimum. If the progression of required points is more like Merits, we're probably looking at something more like 4.5 million experience per job point ability maxed out, and 9 for a current job's two abilities

[Siviard]

LOL and now you are being laughed at. EXp parties taught you one thing and that was how to get exp. Didn't teach rdms to chainspell stun or gear for it and didn't teach DDa how to gear for something harder then Ts. Thfs learned really fast that hate control wasn't their job at endgame and only reason they got to hang around was to tag the mob once to put TH on it and then kicked from the party to get a real DD back in that could do hate control better as /thf then real thfs.

But really old exp parties taught people to leech just like 18 man aby parties right up to 75 then people started caring how bad the gimps performed cause now you had more people too choose from so didn't have to deal with them.

Well, I used to think like most of you until one day a Lv. 99 BST saw me with a charmed Mandragora in Ceizak Battlegrounds and asked me "What jug is that?" and then after I told him I charmed it, he followed it with this: "How did you do that"? There have also been plenty of times I've seen THFs who had no idea how to use Trick Attack.

That's what made me realize Abyssea was the problem, and not the solution.

And yes, Demonjustin, I realize my error now after re-reading it several times. I needed a little bit of sleep and some coffee. Was I a little too impulsive? I think so. But the reason why I was quick to rage is due to my experiences. Main case being the BST I mentioned earlier in this post.

And Ravenmore, laugh at me all you like. I'd insert a crappy "here's how many _____ I give" .gif but nah.

Good night, everyone.

[Demonjustin]

And yes, Demonjustin, I realize my error now after re-reading it several times. I needed a little bit of sleep and some coffee. Was I a little too impulsive? I think so. But the reason why I was quick to rage is due to my experiences. Main case being the BST I mentioned earlier in this post.That's why I wanted to point it out, best to know if/when it's a misunderstanding. ^_^

[Selindrile]

Well, I used to think like most of you until one day a Lv. 99 BST saw me with a charmed Mandragora in Ceizak Battlegrounds and asked me "What jug is that?" and then after I told him I charmed it, he followed it with this: "How did you do that"? There have also been plenty of times I've seen THFs who had no idea how to use Trick Attack.

That's what made me realize Abyssea was the problem, and not the solution.

Rose colored glasses, in ye olden days there was plenty of idiocy at what was considered "higher levels" too, well before Abyssea was created. I remember a Whm/Mnk who defended his option to melee in the 50s and made us wait ages to rest because there were no alternate healers around to replace him. In the in the 60s I remember waiting well over an hour for a bard to reach camp in bibiki bay, I had to go escort him because he clearly couldn't find the way, once he got to party, all he ever did was melee and WS, he didn't know bards had magic. I remember Rdms who would refuse to cast any spells on anyone other than themselves, misinformation and myths were far more common then than it was today (largely due to being less informational sites out there). I remember at 75 finding people who didn't even know what the stats did, wearing rediculous gear choices and not understanding abilities, this was not uncommon.

My point is, there always were and will always be idiots, from my own experience there seemed far less of them in the abyssea era than in the years before them, frankly, but I believe that was a function of ease of finding information, rather than anything else.

[Mirage]

I am actually not too annoyed over the huge requirements for minor improvements in this system. After all, it was advertised as a system to let capped-out players always have something they could get in return for their fighting, even if it was slow. They also stated that new content would not be balanced around people with all job points maxed out.

[FaeQueenCory]

They already said that there's gonna be more added later...
So... There's that.

But it was rather... Unnerving. When I saw that you don't gain anything extra from expchain bonus...
Meaning the job point system is inherently against any form of real exp partying... (No abyssea support = no abyburn, no chain bonus = no classic exp)
Honestly... I don't understand why they made them so... Cumbersome?
Yeah... That word is close enough to suffice.

[Brightshadow]

You, sir, are being laughed at by my entire linkshell. You have brought much joy and laughter to my LS by your simple post. Since you're new around here, I'll give you a little tidbit of information. ABYSSEA KILLED EXP PARTIES!

GEEZ!!!!

The point of the old school EXP parties was to LEARN YOUR JOB AND NOT BE A LAZY LEECHIN' BUM!

I respect your opinion; however, the old way of experience parties wasn't as glamorous as people make it seem, if you weren't one of the best jobs you couldn't get into a party so you basically had to solo to the 75 cap, also if it wasn't for abyssea this game would have probably been dead, and buried a long time ago because of the first point I brought up, and most of the veterans would be at max level making soloing the only available option, also im not new I been around since the beginning of the game on and off but here to stay none the least, and I can tell you for a fact that the game is in the best place it has been in years the only thing it could use is a bit more creativity in the new expansion because as of right now it doesn't have anything that really sets it apart from the other expansions.

Also I know some people think my ideas are stupid, but I don't care my ideas are for SE not the players and haters are gonna hate. :D

[Feary]

Rose colored glasses, in ye olden days there was plenty of idiocy at what was considered "higher levels" too, well before Abyssea was created. I remember a Whm/Mnk who defended his option to melee in the 50s and made us wait ages to rest because there were no alternate healers around to replace him. In the in the 60s I remember waiting well over an hour for a bard to reach camp in bibiki bay, I had to go escort him because he clearly couldn't find the way, once he got to party, all he ever did was melee and WS, he didn't know bards had magic. I remember Rdms who would refuse to cast any spells on anyone other than themselves, misinformation and myths were far more common then than it was today (largely due to being less informational sites out there). I remember at 75 finding people who didn't even know what the stats did, wearing rediculous gear choices and not understanding abilities, this was not uncommon.

My point is, there always were and will always be idiots, from my own experience there seemed far less of them in the abyssea era than in the years before them, frankly, but I believe that was a function of ease of finding information, rather than anything else.

S.E as already solved/made it harder for most of those problems. i think you all are misreading what is going on. its a whole lot easier with stat vomits. warps to every inch of the game and well stupid ppl are stupid people. i mean whm/mnk or bsts who dont know what charm is ? you cannot base your reasoning for changing content on those players. S.E has done what it can for those players and im glad there are still some simple "hey if you want something get up and do it" content.

there were many problems back then, however at least back then, if when you suck you SUCKED (whm/mnk) and if you were good you were good. Good enough to complete the content ahead of you. not leech in alliances/shouts. Gear choices were less forgiving then than today. there were ppl who had worn anything because there wasnt anything decent while leveling unless you were done with end game content.

S.E has given us way more than ppl seem to realize or remember to care about. Probably because you didnt play back then or just want to focus on the contrary to prove you point. To be honest, and not such a demanding diva. these little updates that S.E has added is way more than enough.

you all have some high hopes and speculate that it was going your way and its never ever been that way, EVER. every update is what they said it would be and we all read inbetween the lines and set us up for failure.

Quality of life as come leaps and bounds that having to grind out a few job points seems minute to me. Play the game enjoy it for what it is
quite frankly i'm sick of all the whiners who are never happy because they can be popular as another job. Get over yourself.

IMO S.E needs to go back to quarterly updates, and we as a forum need to focus on giving us new end game content, for vertical progress. so we can get back to place where we had lots to do. there is no reason for s.e to give us updates every month and have everyone done with it before the next update.

[Afania]

Yeah, I kind of found these job enhancements pretty disappointing, and not overly useful. Figured it'd be a good opportunity to give the rest of the 22 jobs some benefits that would make them more useful at endgame, but I see nothing that's really going to change the status quo of "PLD, WHM, BRD, RNG, COR, MNK" only shouts.

I'm really hoping I'm over-reacting and that there will be better job enhancements as you get more points or something. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was really looking forward to this version update because of the Job Point system only to find it a bit lacking. It's really killed my motivation to keep playing this game since it's frustratingly hard for folks like me to get invitations to AA fights with my favorite jobs.

So far the best part of this version update was that you can skill up in reives now. I'm still not sure why it wasn't that way from the beginning though >.>

It's more of an optional thing, from game balance POV, they either have to make it easy to grind but make more game changing difference, or harder to grind but makes little difference.

If they make it time consuming to grind AND game changing for each job, it'd be a requirement to grind them all like RME before SoA. It'd be a nightmare to casual players, you can't play the job unless you have X amount of job point, if you want X amount of job point it'd be time consuming.

If they're going to make it time consuming anyways, I'd rather job point not that game changing.

[scaevola]

I am actually not too annoyed over the huge requirements for minor improvements in this system. After all, it was advertised as a system to let capped-out players always have something they could get in return for their fighting, even if it was slow. They also stated that new content would not be balanced around people with all job points maxed out.

And if this is what it actually were - a system to provide minor bonuses to the jobs you actually spend time playing, to encourage people to play the jobs they really want to play and reward them for doing so - that would be one thing. I could, say, go mess around in Dynamis or Salvage or whatever and get JP. I could do campaign. Hell, I could farm in the Boyahda Tree. That wouldn't be a great system, but it would be a nice little carrot to make playing the game the way you want to play it feel like slightly less of a waste of time, like Sparks.

But that is not the system we got. As it stands, the only way to make any appreciable progress in the JP system is to actually go out and farm mobs in Ulbuka. You get basically zero intersectionality with any other event or form of progress except some moderately decent Spark-farming; Ulbuka mobs don't even drop very many worthwhile sellables. This is not a supplementary system like RoE; this is its own event.

And on that note, let's do some math. This morning, I played around a bit in Foret and I got about 100 CP a kill; nice, round number. We don't know how many JP it will take to cap a job, of course, but we know our reserve cap: 200 JP, or 6 million CP. Let's say kill + targeting the next guy + whatever time I need to let Cherukiki catch her breath averages out to 30 seconds a kill. Seems about right; generous, even!

So, 100 CP every 30 seconds = 12,000 CP/hour = 500 hours of killing bullshit mobs in Foret with no breaks to cap JP as it stands right now. Is this what you wanted?

[Olor]

Speaking as a blue, additional set points are too good to pass up. Guess I'll be soloing in Ulbulka for the foreseeable future.

[Calatilla]

Just an FYI but SoA zones aren't the only place to find lv96+ mobs. More of them for sure, but not the only option.

[Olor]

Just an FYI but SoA zones aren't the only place to find lv96+ mobs. More of them for sure, but not the only option.

mmm yeah good point.

[scaevola]

Just an FYI but SoA zones aren't the only place to find lv96+ mobs. More of them for sure, but not the only option.

lolol

(12345)

[Calatilla]

How is it going to be any less if the mobs are the same level? Ionis doesn't give you a bonus to CP

[Peepiopi]

One thing that doesn't make sense to me though is why you can't get CP during reives? That's level 100+ content, and it'd be another thing to promote the "colonization effort".

[scaevola]

How is it going to be any less if the mobs are the same level? Ionis doesn't give you a bonus to CP

the mobs are like 10-15 levels higher in ulbuka, guy

i mean, if you want to kill level 100 worms in gustav for 20 CP a pop instead of 100, be my guest

[Calatilla]

Considering Lv100 ceizak mobs give 89 CP im not sure where you're getting 20 from, and I said it was an option.

[Olor]

One thing that doesn't make sense to me though is why you can't get CP during reives? That's level 100+ content, and it'd be another thing to promote the "colonization effort".

yes, this would be nice. Then maybe I could get through some of the rieves I've been blocked by forevvvveeer.

[scaevola]

Considering Lv100 ceizak mobs give 89 CP im not sure where you're getting 20 from, and I said it was an option.

not the point

the point is...

who cares

[Camate]

Greetings, everyone.

Thanks for the feedback thus far on the new job point system. I’d like to pass on some information in response to comments we have been seeing.


Circle-type abilities
We are currently preparing to add more job point categories moving forward, but we are planning to start with the abilities you learn at low levels and move up from there, which is why at the moment there are a lot of circle-type abilities that can be enhanced.

We understand there are a lot of requests for other categories and the development team is working hard to release the next group of categories.


Capacity point amount
We had wanted to introduce chain bonuses for this; however, the original concept of chain bonuses (earn a bonus by defeating monsters that are higher in level than yourself within a certain time frame) was not appropriate for an item level system where you can change your level at any time. As such we decided to hold off on this.

In the future we would like to add elements such as dedication and chain bonuses.

Also, in regards to the amount of capacity points you need to earn, we’d like to monitor the current situation for a bit, and depending on the necessity we may make adjustments in the future.


Finally, the following is additional information on dancer's Trance category.


Dancer’s Trance
Each job point boosts the amount of TP increased when Trance is used by 10.

Looking at the system from an internal perspective, TP is calculated with decimal points up to the tenths. However, showing this via the UI is quite difficult, and thus it is displayed with the whole number values you see every day. The system has been built this way so that in the future we can add equipment and abilities that affect TP on the tenths scale.

In the future, we'd like to look into a method to display this more easily via the UI, such as making the maximum TP 3000.

[Blah]

Well it seems to me that as long as you HAVE to be 99 AND on the job you want job points for it really isn't very different or "better" than the merit point system. Is there a way to maybe make it so you can get points for any of the jobs you have unlocked as long as you're 99 or is that or anything like it not even going to be considered?

[MDenham]

the mobs are like 10-15 levels higher in ulbuka, guy

i mean, if you want to kill level 100 worms in gustav for 20 CP a pop instead of 100, be my guestPots in Fei'Yin were giving 83 and 89 CP (on 195/200 exp/kill mobs, so lv98/99).

If worms in Gustav are seriously only giving 20 CP/kill, there are some seriously bizarre family or zone modifiers going on.

[Dreamin]

The only real complaint I have is why SE make it so if you were to Party Up, you get LESS CP??? I understands that they don't want people to just afk leech perhaps (hence no Abyssea). But this just completely forces more people into doing Trusts. And guess who this will hurt the most? Healers and other backline support jobs. Imagine a WAR or MNK with a WHM/BRD/SAM trusts at the same camp as a BRD/GEO/WHM/othersupport with a WHM/Support/DD trusts. Guess who is going to be getting a lot more kills and more CP faster? And instead of 1 party of 6 people teaming up for 1 'camp/mob', now you have 6 people competing against one another for the same camp/mob.

Seriously, the least you can do is to REMOVE the penalty of PARTY for Capacity Points. It's just pure stupid. You already have the no mob lower than 96. Yes, there will still be people who will AFK leech CP but there's just no way that you can come up with a prefect solution where no one will afk leech CP. So stop penalizing everyone else and forces people to wanting to just solo with 3x trusts and compete against one another at camp/mobs. This isn't 2004 and let's not relive the memories of merit bird camps with people fight on top of one another please.

[Byrth]

Shiiiit, you mean I will not be able to reduce my casting time during SV or increase my Minne potency because I cannot get a party on my bard?!?!?! Q.Q

I think I will live.

[scaevola]

TBF you might be singing a different tune if they add anything good later on, which is one of many reasons why I hope they don't!

[bigdave]

this system is completely useless as of right now. I wanted something nice and fun to do but the job point collection is horrible and the augments aren't worth the time required to get them. I am thinking about discontinuing my account after 11 years . If you cant come up with any better gimmick than this why should I pay you guys. Also we need a server merger bad cant even get enough decent players to make an 18 man event in less than 3 hours outside of ls event.

[Siviard]

Ok, I completely retract my previous statements.

I finally got a Job Point, used it on my BST's "Enhance Pet Accuracy". It took me several hours over the course of yesterday and 2.5 hours of grinding to get a single Job Point. Now, to get another upgrade it costs 2 Job Points.

Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun soloing and stuff, but this new "grind" is almost to the point of cruelty.

[detlef]

Ok, I completely retract my previous statements.

I finally got a Job Point, used it on my BST's "Enhance Pet Accuracy". It took me several hours over the course of yesterday and 2.5 hours of grinding to get a single Job Point. Now, to get another upgrade it costs 2 Job Points.

Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun soloing and stuff, but this new "grind" is almost to the point of cruelty.Well that is horrible. All things considered, I would prefer no job points at all and Woh Gates back the way it was.

[scaevola]

For those keeping score, a linear JP cost progression like Group 1 merits means it takes 435 JP to cap one ability at level 30, or 13,050,000 CP. If we use my 30-seconds-a-kill, 12,000 CP/hour scenario from page 3, that is 1,087.5 hours of straight XP grinding, doing nothing else, to cap a single JP enhancement on a single job.

QUALITY ASSURANCE

EDIT: And in case you, Dear Reader, are not entirely clear on this, this isn't something you're going to progress in incidentally while you do other things. The only way to get CP is to kill mobs that give CP, and as of right now here is a comprehensive list of events featuring XP-granting mobs of a sufficient level to give CP:

-Skirmish

[Olor]

For those keeping score, a linear JP cost progression like Group 1 merits means it takes 435 JP to cap one ability at level 30, or 13,050,000 CP. If we use my 30-seconds-a-kill, 12,000 CP/hour scenario from page 3, that is 1,087.5 hours of straight XP grinding, doing nothing else, to cap a single JP enhancement on a single job.

QUALITY ASSURANCE

EDIT: And in case you, Dear Reader, are not entirely clear on this, this isn't something you're going to progress in incidentally while you do other things. The only way to get CP is to kill mobs that give CP, and as of right now here is a comprehensive list of events featuring XP-granting mobs of a sufficient level to give CP:

-Skirmish

I don't think Skirmish gives any exp so I doubt it would give CP. At any rate didn't work towards ROE mob family kill objectives. Now that I think about it Cirdas gave exp... but I don't recall getting it in Yorcia...

At any rate, that's an insane time sink. I don't think it needs to be that ridiculous.

[scaevola]

Ra'Kaz Skirmish gives XP and I didn't pay attention to the other two. In any case, I'm being facile, because even in Ra'Kaznar you'd be lucky to walk out of a finished run with 2k CP.

The point is that this is not set up to be a secondary reward for general activity, like RoE and BCNMs.

[Moncho23]

For those keeping score, a linear JP cost progression like Group 1 merits means it takes 435 JP to cap one ability at level 30, or 13,050,000 CP. If we use my 30-seconds-a-kill, 12,000 CP/hour scenario from page 3, that is 1,087.5 hours of straight XP grinding, doing nothing else, to cap a single JP enhancement on a single job.

QUALITY ASSURANCE

EDIT: And in case you, Dear Reader, are not entirely clear on this, this isn't something you're going to progress in incidentally while you do other things. The only way to get CP is to kill mobs that give CP, and as of right now here is a comprehensive list of events featuring XP-granting mobs of a sufficient level to give CP:

-Skirmish

Ok that explains the whole grinding process, Simple.. SE is securing your subscription for another 90 days with just 2 JP category capped.
calculate how many days for 10 categories.

[Damane]

The only real complaint I have is why SE make it so if you were to Party Up, you get LESS CP??? I understands that they don't want people to just afk leech perhaps (hence no Abyssea). But this just completely forces more people into doing Trusts. And guess who this will hurt the most? Healers and other backline support jobs. Imagine a WAR or MNK with a WHM/BRD/SAM trusts at the same camp as a BRD/GEO/WHM/othersupport with a WHM/Support/DD trusts. Guess who is going to be getting a lot more kills and more CP faster? And instead of 1 party of 6 people teaming up for 1 'camp/mob', now you have 6 people competing against one another for the same camp/mob.

Seriously, the least you can do is to REMOVE the penalty of PARTY for Capacity Points. It's just pure stupid. You already have the no mob lower than 96. Yes, there will still be people who will AFK leech CP but there's just no way that you can come up with a prefect solution where no one will afk leech CP. So stop penalizing everyone else and forces people to wanting to just solo with 3x trusts and compete against one another at camp/mobs. This isn't 2004 and let's not relive the memories of merit bird camps with people fight on top of one another please.

they stated taht woh and doh gates have much higher level mobs (they really do infact, you need a brd/cor/geo to kill them remotly reasonable). I would like to test a meripo pt setup there, but there is no people willing to try it out. you get 300 CP per kill (that was duo) and they said partys dont get there any penalty for teaming up. So if you want fast CP meripo pt style in woh and doh gates is the way to go.

tough I do agree the grinding went overboard on this.

[Jerbob]

...was not appropriate for an item level system...
There are a spectacular number of aspects of this game that have turned out not to be appropriate for an item level system. This does rather raise the question of why is there still an item level system in the game? You have literally just released a second character improvement system that does not involve levels, the first being merit points. Perhaps that would have been a good place to start when considering how to improve player capabilities for the expansion?

If I see one more piece of gear with the string of text "Evasion+X Magic Evasion+X Magic Defence Bonus +X Haste +X" I may actually start stabbing myself in the eyes with a pencil. I'm honestly not sure I'd be able to stop.

[saevel]

Capacity point amount
We had wanted to introduce chain bonuses for this; however, the original concept of chain bonuses (earn a bonus by defeating monsters that are higher in level than yourself within a certain time frame) was not appropriate for an item level system where you can change your level at any time. As such we decided to hold off on this.

In the future we would like to add elements such as dedication and chain bonuses.

Also, in regards to the amount of capacity points you need to earn, we’d like to monitor the current situation for a bit, and depending on the necessity we may make adjustments in the future.

The problem is the how ridiculously small the amount of CP we get from enemies is. CP gets penalized for having additional party members but doesn't get a 50% boost from chain bonus's and is often to small that your better off aoe burning weaker mobs then killing in a real party. The reward is so little that you won't be raising any of the stats anytime soon.

[Demonjustin]

For those keeping score, a linear JP cost progression like Group 1 merits means it takes 435 JP to cap one ability at level 30, or 13,050,000 CP. If we use my 30-seconds-a-kill, 12,000 CP/hour scenario from page 3, that is 1,087.5 hours of straight XP grinding, doing nothing else, to cap a single JP enhancement on a single job.

QUALITY ASSURANCE

EDIT: And in case you, Dear Reader, are not entirely clear on this, this isn't something you're going to progress in incidentally while you do other things. The only way to get CP is to kill mobs that give CP, and as of right now here is a comprehensive list of events featuring XP-granting mobs of a sufficient level to give CP:

-SkirmishThis post has eleminated any and all wish I had to do anything pertaining to this system at all, as well as most people I know. Before this, I was excited to get some XP parties together to do runs, but with the points going up by 1 every upgrade, the amount needed, the low ass amount gained per kill, and so on... I won't touch this, not at all! >:O

[Aeron]

Honestly anyone who is promoting this system is just flat out delusional. Think of it this way in that 1087.5 hours that it takes you to max out one JP enhancement you could probably have a mythic and that is a hell of a lot more useful then all of these enhancements. At the end of the day the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Someone mentioned that this was all a way to just extend subs and im starting to agree from the rumors ive been hearing that FFXIV isn't doing so hot.

[Siviard]

You know, I'd be fine with a static 1/4 of total EXP gained.

Something that gives 1,000 EXP would net 250 CP. That would make the "grind" a little more tolerable, IMO.

[MDenham]

For those keeping score, a linear JP cost progression like Group 1 merits means it takes 435 JP to cap one ability at level 30, or 13,050,000 CP.One minor dollop of additional bad news on top of what you've stated: it actually takes 465 JP to reach level 30 of one ability. 435 JP will get you to level 29.

But, really, that's only another 25 hours at the pace given. Practically a rounding error.

[Zarchery]

This seems like an unpleasant thing from how you described it. Why would you thank them for it?

[Zarchery]

This post has eleminated any and all wish I had to do anything pertaining to this system at all, as well as most people I know. Before this, I was excited to get some XP parties together to do runs, but with the points going up by 1 every upgrade, the amount needed, the low ass amount gained per kill, and so on... I won't touch this, not at all! >:O

I feel so nostalgic. Like it's 2005 again but instead of getting to do cool end game activities at the end, I get... nothing.

[Selindrile]

Endgame activities weren't cool in 2005.

[Demonjustin]

This seems like an unpleasant thing from how you described it. Why would you thank them for it?Basically saying thanks for making the rewards so terrible that it's not enticing to bother doing it, similar to what I have to think Adoulin made me feel like when all of a sudden Ephemeron no longer mattered and I had no more reason to fight Aello for a .1% drop rate. If it's so bad you don't care about it then it doesn't matter how bad the requirements in the middle are.

[Kraggy]

This seems like an unpleasant thing from how you described it. Why would you thank them for it?
I think it may be called sarcasm.

[Kari]

I'm fairly sure from this point on they will reconsider the methods of obtaining CP, and the amounts obtained.
It's pretty clear that nobody is "okay" with the way things are right now, especially since most of the upgrades are not worth getting AT ALL.
I could not imagine upgrading Mijin Gakure Damage, for example, unless I was overflowing on NIN Job Points and had nothing else to buy.
Problem is, this will never happen with the current system. Hopefully things get better.

[Feary]

I'm fairly sure from this point on they will reconsider the methods of obtaining CP, and the amounts obtained.
It's pretty clear that nobody is "okay" with the way things are right now, especially since most of the upgrades are not worth getting AT ALL.
I could not imagine upgrading Mijin Gakure Damage, for example, unless I was overflowing on NIN Job Points and had nothing else to buy.
Problem is, this will never happen with the current system. Hopefully things get better.

yeah i doubt they change anything.

Fact of the matter is the update shouldnt have happened. the three main points of the update wehre Delve, JP and fishing.

We didnt get Delve fracture, which is the only point of doing delve. which also means no new AF body or legs.

Job points options are way too small and pushed out too earlier. Obtaining job points was not fully developed. however doesnt matter because points values are too low and slow without decent parties camps. we dont have kill chains and soloing seems optimal however ot seems you have to be on the job to get points.

Fishing. its fishing. nice that it was revamped however its fishing. not really a game changer. unless it was your income.

once chains are adjusted, we get more leveling camps, removing the requirement of having to be on the job to get points for that job and Delve is fixed. then this update will suffice.

its not that content they planned for us its bad, its incomplete. the implementation is what failed us. this was obviously just put this out as a foundation so they can test the stability of the game and make appropriate adjustments.

[Demonjustin]

We didnt get Delve fracture, which is the only point of doing delve.If anything, I would say this isn't so bad since it actually gave us a point to do the outside NMs. Were it all released at once we would no doubt have skipped the outside NMs completely and went in, tried to get to the boss, failed, and tried again over and over till we win. The outside NMs this way are getting some attention at least, people are farming them for the KIs & drops right now since it costs so much Plasm and the drops are level 119 gear which is actually good gear in some slots.

[Leylia]

I also believe that the amount of capacity points needed to get just one single job point is waaa[...]aaay to astronomically high than to ever be feasable -if it isn't changed-. It takes hours to get one in a party and then you also need to be on the job you want the points for. How the hell am I supposed to get SMN job points this way? A SMN in a JP-party? What does SE dream of at night... A SMN amassing JP solo? Again, what the heck are those guys thinking? Handing us a warning everytime we start the game: do not let your RL suffer, this is a game. However once ingame: screw it, you have to walk through hell to get something done, grind till your eyes bleed to get enhancements that aren't even worth it to begin with.

SE thinks it is a good idea though and it needs monitoring before anything is changed. Yep, the entire world already knows it is crap after one day (maybe even a few hours) but SE first of all thinks it is a good idea the way it is and then probably needs weeks to find out how ridiculous it actually is, before -if at all- altering it.

If I wouldn't know that this is a subscription based game, anyone telling me the situation of JP in this game would lead me to believe this is a lousy generic f2p title with an item shop where you then can buy the JPs directly because otherwise it is a life destroying task to get anywhere worthwhile. Games where you get 0.002% XP per kill and fight like two or three enemies a minute... Bad decision SE and bad, very bad reputation. I won't participate in a JP hunt, that's for sure.

[Frankbrodie]

They will just reduce the required mob level to obtain CP. Not too far in the future in my honest opinion.

Maybe not next month's update. But pretty sharpish.

I mean sure, 13 million CP sounds like a lot.
But if they let you amass it at any level. Or heaven forbid, as a monster. Then no one would be complaining anywhere near as loudly.

[KorPoni]

My proposition of every method of obtaining Capacity Points:
*25% of experience points yielded from monsters lvl 96 and above.
*5% of experience points yielded from monsters below 96 but still worth experience to 99s.
*100 from any battlefield that yields experience points at the end.

Understandable to not get Capacity Points:
*Abyssea (Too fast of kills, gonna have abyssea 99s with abyssea job points...lol)
*Records of Emininence (System would be way too easy to abuse for extra Capacity Points.)
*Fields of Valor/Grounds of Valor (Completely understandable, would be Gusgen Mines all over again, though probably a different area.)

This doesn't destroy the grind required for points, but it makes it more realistic on acquiring the points.

[Moppet]

I wouldn't mind the grind if the job point effects were considerable or interesting. Right now they're pretty underwhelming.

Hopefully they will keep adding more in the future.

[Camate]

Greetings,

The development team is currently looking into making it so capacity points can be earned through certain Records of Eminence objectives as well as from the various types of reives.

Additionally, they are planning adjustments to the amount of capacity points earned and other methods in which you can obtain them.

We'll continue to forward all of your feedback on Job Points to the development team.

[machini]

The Job Points system should never have been added. We already had a system of points for spending on enhancements to jobs -- the Merit Point System. They should have just added new categories for each job, or increased the number of points that we could spend in a given category/given item, etc.

Seriously, SE. Do you just hate us at this point? Do you want us to quit playing your game so badly?

So many of these options are completely underwhelming and useless. They WOULD be nice if it didn't require 1100 hours of grinding to get them unlocked. And even then, take Dancer for example. For 1100 hours of grinding, I get 100 TP? Every time I use Trance? Which is at most, once an hour in most circumstances? OH BOY. That is SUPER useful. That is what I would be saying, in some parallel universe, where the people in charge of this game aren't trying to get people to actively hate it and quit.

You need to stop releasing content until you have a) fixed the current content that is broken, and b) finished the content that should have been here already that you haven't released yet because you keep getting sidetracked by SUPER COOL AWESOME ideas like the Job Point system which was ENTIRELY unneeded.

[detlef]

Seriously, SE. Do you just hate us at this point? Do you want us to quit playing your game so badly?This is unnecessary and over the top criticism. I agree that the job point system sucks as it is currently implemented. But overall, we've been getting a lot of content, both in terms of new events, revamped events, and quality of life improvements. Look at the big picture. Job points may be a misstep, but it's unfair to levy such harsh criticism when taking everything else into account.

[Calatilla]

The job point system might not be what most people expected but it's very rare SE gets something right first time around. It will be adjusted in time. More categories will be added at a later date.

[Olor]

Greetings,

The development team is currently looking into making it so capacity points can be earned through certain Records of Eminence objectives as well as from the various types of reives.

Additionally, they are planning adjustments to the amount of capacity points earned and other methods in which you can obtain them.

We'll continue to forward all of your feedback on Job Points to the development team.

I'd love it if you added a BONUS on CP for people who do rieves - it would help players like me who don't have all the warps get around.

[scaevola]

Greetings,

The development team is currently looking into making it so capacity points can be earned through certain Records of Eminence objectives as well as from the various types of reives.

Additionally, they are planning adjustments to the amount of capacity points earned and other methods in which you can obtain them.

We'll continue to forward all of your feedback on Job Points to the development team.

As far as actual feedback goes, it's hard to provide given the intersectionality going on between the downsides of this system (grinding way too long in way too limited content for way too underwhelming reward). It would be helpful to know what exactly the devs want the JP system to accomplish.

Is it to encourage and reward people for playing the jobs they want to play, rather than constantly shifting between what's optimal for a given event? If so, we need way more opportunities to get CP. As it stands right now, the only way to get it is meripo, so it does nothing to encourage me to play a favorite job in other events.

Is it intended to bring back meripo-style grinding (hence the limited range of CP sources), like many people have been asking for over the past few years? If so, that's fine, but the grind needs to be DRASTICALLY shortened. I miss merit parties as much as the next guy, but FFXI now has enough things to do as it is without them; it would be a massive step backwards to make XPing as important to the metagame as it was 6 years ago. We all understand you don't want people capping overnight, but a mature JP system with many appealing bonuses could keep players - most of whom have half a dozen or more "significant" jobs at this point - running merit parties until the end of time even if CP generation were like, ten times what it is right now.

EDIT: and in any case, the enhancements should be straight-up better than they are right now. I'm not opposed to spending JP to upgrade Warding Circle (though it'd be my last choice out of the SAM kit) but the enhancement probably should have been a 1%/rank to all three bonuses if you expected it to seem appealing.

[detlef]

I'd love it if you added a BONUS on CP for people who do rieves - it would help players like me who don't have all the warps get around.Taking this a step further, I would like there to be more motivation to do Colonization Rieves, which have a direct impact on how people can access a zone. Right now it makes more sense to just to Lairs.

[Siviard]

Greetings,

The development team is currently looking into making it so capacity points can be earned through certain Records of Eminence objectives as well as from the various types of reives.

Additionally, they are planning adjustments to the amount of capacity points earned and other methods in which you can obtain them.

We'll continue to forward all of your feedback on Job Points to the development team.

Thank you for taking our feedback into consideration!

Just to give you a small-ish update regarding the Job Points system from some folks on Shiva server I've spoken to. The vast majority of the people I've spoken to say they aren't even bothering to actively farm Capacity Points. The amount of Capacity Points per kill is horribly low and the amount of Capacity Points needed for 1 Job Point is too high, especially considering the 1>2>3 progression in upgrades.

If there were a way to remedy this and to help possibly get more people involved in using the system, it can go two ways. 1. Lower the amount of Capacity Points needed for 1 Job Point to 10,000 or 2. Increase the amount of Capacity Points earned to 50% of the total EXP gained per kill if solo, and 75% of EXP gained per kill if in a party of 6 while leaving the amount of Capacity Points required for 1 Job Point at 30,000.

Again, thank you for taking any/all feedback into consideration. But as it stands right now, the Job Points system is pretty unpopular.

[Xantavia]

I'm actually kind of glad job points aren't real easy to get. If you could easily max them out, it would soon become a requirement to have them in order to get a party, and yet 1 more specific thing added to shouts. I think it helps those who have one or two jobs they consider their mains, so theirs will be just a tiny bit better than somebody who hopped on the bandwagon and got it to 99 when it was the flavor of the month.

[pretre]

the job point system is a bit pointless atm but I see potential in it.in my opinion it needs to be worth doing firstly as in I would like to see it balance the dd jobs more. an then it needs to be doable as in make the points chain higher ;like exp so we would be back to meripo days

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

OH BOY. That is SUPER useful.

Then don't do it.

If they go back on their earlier statement of "Job Points won't be taken into consideration when balancing content" (much like they back-pedaled on "We'll be backing off on inflicting Encumbrance in the future"), then complain.

[Demonjustin]

My ideas for making this system good.

-20% of XP/LP gained goes to CP, this includes Chains, Rings, and anything else that boosts the standard Experience Point rate.

-Completely remove party penalties... having this penalty at all only serves to deter parties not balance things.

-Remove the scaling cost or slow it by a ton! Points should not go from 1 to 2 to 3, if anything it should go up by 1 every 5 points allocated to an ability.

-Change some of these buffs, there are some like Magic Damage +2 During Chainspell that are flat out worthless, when I Chainspell, I use high tiers, high tiers get almost no benefit from Magic Damage and in fact this stat only improves my DMG by less than 10 per nuke which is pathetic. On the other side, more BLU Points and BSTs getting +3STR/DEX/VIT/ect. for their pet per point is vastly superior!

[Glamdring]

the job point system is a very welcome addition to many of us. it adds a 2nd set of enhancements independent of the 1st, and it is gained quite easily. with the announcement that additional categories will be added the REAL problem that those currently available are generally lackluster is somewhat abated (it may be entirely, but until we know what the new categories ARE we can't speak inteligently about it). I'm greatly looking forward to them. Between this and the addition of good skill-up locations I would have to say this is one of the best updates since the "pupdate".

[Xantavia]

-Remove the scaling cost or slow it by a ton! Points should not go from 1 to 2 to 3, if anything it should go up by 1 every 5 points allocated to an ability.
Do we know exactly how buying them works now? Is it an increase of 1 per point, up to 10 JP needed to currently max it? Or is like some of the merits, 1 -2-3-4-5-5-5-...., with a cap to upgrade points after a certain point?

[Demonjustin]

Do we know exactly how buying them works now? Is it an increase of 1 per point, up to 10 JP needed to currently max it? Or is like some of the merits, 1 -2-3-4-5-5-5-...., with a cap to upgrade points after a certain point?That would still be 40 points to hit level 10, whereas with it going up by 1 forever, it would be 55. Either one, is still far to many points.

[Siviard]

Do we know exactly how buying them works now? Is it an increase of 1 per point, up to 10 JP needed to currently max it? Or is like some of the merits, 1 -2-3-4-5-5-5-...., with a cap to upgrade points after a certain point?

I wish I knew how to answer your question properly. In my personal experience, I finally got the 1 Job Point. I used it on my BST "Pet Accuracy" and it went from 1 > 2. Soon as I saw that, my heart sank and I gave up. It took me a pretty long time to get that 1 Job Point. Then to realize it would take twice as long to upgrade the same category again....yeah. And I won't be actively farming Capacity Points until the system is revamped.

[saevel]

Greetings,

The development team is currently looking into making it so capacity points can be earned through certain Records of Eminence objectives as well as from the various types of reives.

Additionally, they are planning adjustments to the amount of capacity points earned and other methods in which you can obtain them.

We'll continue to forward all of your feedback on Job Points to the development team.

Though I highly doubt your forwarding anything the English speaking people are saying, on the off chance I'm wrong and they are actually listening to us I'll say this.

The amount given is FAR TOO SMALL. I should not be getting 30~50 CP for killing a monster that gives me several hundred to a thousand XP. Remove the XP division that takes place when being in a party it's stupid and left over from when FFXI was an EverQuest clone. Make is so that when we select CP we get that instead of XP, preferably on a 1:1 basis, otherwise people won't even bother. That or make it so that we can select a job and all earned CP goes to that job because right now there is zero incentive me to go WHM for a party when I need SO MUCH CP on WAR / BLU / RUN. I'm better off soloing with trust NPC's for CP on a job that I want it on vs joining a party.

[Ravenmore]

This is what happens when people keep going on about the good old days. All SE has to go on when they hear the good old days crap is how grindy it was not that you had all your friends to make it less of a grind. So every time onne of the meat heads whined about how fast we level or how people were burning though stuff to fast we get crap like this.

[Siven]

The Job Points system should never have been added. We already had a system of points for spending on enhancements to jobs -- the Merit Point System. They should have just added new categories for each job, or increased the number of points that we could spend in a given category/given item, etc.

Seriously, SE. Do you just hate us at this point? Do you want us to quit playing your game so badly?

So many of these options are completely underwhelming and useless. They WOULD be nice if it didn't require 1100 hours of grinding to get them unlocked. And even then, take Dancer for example. For 1100 hours of grinding, I get 100 TP? Every time I use Trance? Which is at most, once an hour in most circumstances? OH BOY. That is SUPER useful. That is what I would be saying, in some parallel universe, where the people in charge of this game aren't trying to get people to actively hate it and quit.

You need to stop releasing content until you have a) fixed the current content that is broken, and b) finished the content that should have been here already that you haven't released yet because you keep getting sidetracked by SUPER COOL AWESOME ideas like the Job Point system which was ENTIRELY unneeded.

Since I can't DISlike an unhelpful post, I'll just reply to it. I'd rather see the job point system fixed, personally, and I'm glad it's here. Personally, I would have liked better to see merits expanded upon, and this worked into that system somehow, or vise versa, but I am glad to see continuation of character growth. The rate at which you get them is pretty dismal, though, chains, records, removal of small group penalty, any of these things would be great. I don't want to see alliances formed for job point parties, but I do want to see 1-6 people doing it. Please let us know what the dev team is planning.

[Selindrile]

I like the idea of completely removing the party/alliance penalty for Capacity Points, even if there's still no reason to Exp in a group, at least this would provide an interesting balance, so that grouping would be better for this activity.

Considering how rediculous the grinds are for job points, people still won't be completing them any time soon even with a full alliance clear-cutting a zone.

I would also love to see Job points accruing naturally everywhere, like sparks, you said you're already addressing this, which is neat, I guess it would feel less annoying for it to be so painfully slow if you were collecting them everywhere.

Also, add some sort of repeatable RoE quest to rival "Deal 500+ damage" for support jobs to repeat while you're at it.

[Kimjongil]

You know they could add exchange one copper bag for 1k job points item. Personally I am guessing they will add an item like this or ring soon.

I don't know why people complain abut JP's You can literarily FC them Get a warrior and rdm, sell four slots to AFK. Pull 6-10 mobs WS, kill, repeat. This will be the new RTM event. I did this today earned five.

[Mirage]

Heal 500+ damage was a thing, but they didn't make it repeatable. It really should be repeatable though, as long as there is a 500 damage thing that is.

[FaeQueenCory]

Greetings,

The development team is currently looking into making it so capacity points can be earned through certain Records of Eminence objectives as well as from the various types of reives.

Additionally, they are planning adjustments to the amount of capacity points earned and other methods in which you can obtain them.

We'll continue to forward all of your feedback on Job Points to the development team.
Rieves: stuff people do solo
RoE: stuff people do solo

No chain bonus... no abyssea...
So... it's ok if y'all just come out and tell us... that you don't want people to party up for Job Points....
Cause making it so that there's less to get a JP or including content that is generally done without a group 99% of the time...
You're just encouraging people to play solo.

It's blatantly clear that the Job Point system was meant to push people into spending more time in Adoulin... what with all the minimal benefits that you get from killing stuff there... (ala party xp penalty is lessened in Adoulin areas) and the restriction of "only lv100+ mobs"...
But the thing is... as everything stands right now... there is 0 reason to party up... let alone form "exp/merit/JP parties"...

A lot of people were happy about the exclusion of abyssea because they have their nostalgia goggles on hard and want the 75era back...
75era exp parties were no different than GoV parties... they just worked in a different form. (ala chain bonus vs book completion bonus)...
But y'all killed that by not including the chain bonus... which just baffles me... because the chain bonus exists to counteract the xp penalty from partying up...

Basically: you don't need to include more solo content... just give capacity points based on chain bonus. (the coding is already there too! both Merit Points and conquest points work off of it... so you have the base codes you need.)
Then you have more people actually doing stuff in Adoulin areas (rather than just passing through to the fracture or WKR) and you make the nostalgia 75ers happy cause they have their "oldschool" exp parties back.

Job Points.... are worse than Cait Sith.
Sure Cait Sith was unfinished... what with being stuck in the 75era... but she has room to grow and can potentially be made super useful with a single BP being added to her...
Job Points, on the other hand, are just... a mess.

[Olor]

Rieves: stuff people do solo

Outside of the two areas right outside of town it's a nightmare to solo rieves....

[Moncho23]

Job points are useless right now,and seriously instead of motivating players to come back SE is scaring the few who remains to quit playing.
AH!!!... I'll rather pay $ 100.00 and play Everquest beta.

[scaevola]

I don't know why people complain abut JP's You can literarily FC them Get a warrior and rdm, sell four slots to AFK. Pull 6-10 mobs WS, kill, repeat. This will be the new RTM event. I did this today earned five.

well, great

now you can just do that 100 more times and cap a job point ability

the amount of electrical power your computer will have consumed in the process of doing so is roughly equivalent to one half a saudi oil worker

[FaeQueenCory]

Outside of the two areas right outside of town it's a nightmare to solo rieves....
All BLMs, SCHs, RDMs and SMNs laugh at this notion.
And I'm told by BLUs that they have no issues with the "hard" reives either. Cause of that... Spikey arrow spell? It was from the Velk iirc.

If you are having issues with soloing everything that's not the... "noob intro" reives.... You haven't learned where to stand yet.

[Jedd]

All BLMs, SCHs, RDMs and SMNs laugh at this notion.
And I'm told by BLUs that they have no issues with the "hard" reives either. Cause of that... Spikey arrow spell? It was from the Velk iirc.

If you are having issues with soloing everything that's not the... "noob intro" reives.... You haven't learned where to stand yet.

For BLUs, it's because they can just sleep all the mobs with something like Dream Flower and go to town on the roots/rocks/etc. Glutinous Dart from Velkk's (odd name, since the spell animation shows a bolas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas), almost like the opposite of a dart) could be used, but that seems dreadfully slow.

[FaeQueenCory]

Id like to see something like this added for each jobs, job points catagory:
[All 2HR buffs]

I dont know, most of the current abilities seems kinda mediocre. Perhaps something more like what I have posted above? Doesnt have to be 100% just the general idea.

Grim~
I..... don't like 2hr buffs.
Even now that they are 1hr recasts.....
They... just are never used enough to have an augment be worthwhile.
ESPECIALLY not when it takes so much to accumulate JPs...

I'd rather see more categories for abilities we use 99% of the time... rather than the 1% of the time we use our 2hrs.

[Ravenmore]

For BLUs, it's because they can just sleep all the mobs with something like Dream Flower and go to town on the roots/rocks/etc. Glutinous Dart from Velkk's (odd name, since the spell animation shows a bolas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas), almost like the opposite of a dart) could be used, but that seems dreadfully slow.

It goes a little slower then nuking them down on rdm with t1 spells but not that much and the mp cost, recast is really low and much safer then trying to keep all the mobs slept.

[Demonjustin]

I'm ok with upgrading 2 hours with it, but it shouldn't even nearly be a focus. The only 2 hour ability I use outside of extremely rare cases is Familiar, and that's only because I can keep the thing up for more than 3 minutes since it lasts a full 40 minutes instead.

[scaevola]

Then don't do it.

If they go back on their earlier statement of "Job Points won't be taken into consideration when balancing content" (much like they back-pedaled on "We'll be backing off on inflicting Encumbrance in the future"), then complain.

If you think JPs will either be inconsequential or detrimental, why even have them?

Look. If they don't change the rate of acquisition/advancement, a couple different things can happen:

-the enhancements stay totally inconsequential, so everybody ignores JP forever and it becomes the Garrison of persistent character development.

-good enhancements are released, so a handful of sadfats haijin it up and kill crabs for 6-8 hours a day for several weeks to get started, at which point nobody else can ever really catch up, and FFXI finally gives up any pretense of not just being a refuge for people fleeing from an engaged and worthy life.

-good enhancements are released and as a result SE relents on the rate of acquisition/advancement, at which point that guy that will have 200 JP banked by that update is rewarded by being made a fool.

Why would anybody want any of this? Why wouldn't somebody want Job Points to have a positive impact on the game?

[Stompa]

As predicted, the job I hate most is the job I'm getting stacks of Job Points on. White Mage!

"We need you to come on WHM." Repeat these words for ten years. I don't even know what the mobs in events look like because I'm standing at the back staring at people's HP-bars, and racking up those Job Points for a job I want to see shackled and tossed into the ocean.

I have started soloing Job Points for my main jobs, very slowly. Our LS gets most job points from events, and I'm always the Whm so I'm looking forward to my divine seal bonus, DS enmity-3 here I come /cheer.

[scaevola]

Do we know exactly how buying them works now? Is it an increase of 1 per point, up to 10 JP needed to currently max it? Or is like some of the merits, 1 -2-3-4-5-5-5-...., with a cap to upgrade points after a certain point?

We won't know until either SE just tells us or somebody soldiers on to rank 10 in something, but if the points-to-level plateaus and you never need more than 5 JP to go up a level, the 200 JP reserve cap is pretty baffling.

[Calatilla]

Thf: Enhance Larceny effect duration.

If you want to enhance it give it an enfeebling effect like Amnesia which each JP increasing it's duration from a base of 30's. Not awesome sauce, but then neither is Larceny.

If you're talking about the duration of the ability you just stole, that`d be cool, but that would classify as a DD buff for THF, and we can't have that.

[FaeQueenCory]

Hey if you dont use your skills that often, thats your fault. I use mine pretty much constantly, Infact many situations it can help speed things up. IE: spark farming with a monk, Specially in aby hundred fist is used very very often. Not to mention the new AA and SKNM fights where you are more likly to use your 1 hours abilities. We get you dont like JA, but they are here to stay. They will tweak them alot im sure, but if you seriously have a issue with them might just want to forget they exist. You honestly think SE gonna just say "hey lets just remove it completly" ofcourse not.

Grim~
Ah... A MNK... I shouldn't be surprised then that you think using your 2hr makes you a good player.
Aside from hundred fists... And um..... Mighty Strikes...
All the other jobs use out 2hrs almost never... And when we do, it's for a HIGHLY specific stuff (ala SMN with Alexander, COR in Delve, NIN after a RR, etc) or it's just for dicking around.
Generally (and this is especially true for say, WHM) you shouldn't be relying on your 2hr to be good. It should be an "oh shit" button... And you should be good enough to never have need of it. (Keeping with WHMs: relying on benediction and curaga5 are the mark of bad WHMs)

Besides.
You misunderstood my point, which Demonjustin also states:

I'm ok with upgrading 2 hours with it, but it shouldn't even nearly be a focus. The only 2 hour ability I use outside of extremely rare cases is Familiar, and that's only because I can keep the thing up for more than 3 minutes since it lasts a full 40 minutes instead.
In other words:
Stop with the 2hr buffs.
We already have 1 category for it.
We don't need more 2hr buffs.
We need categories that are actually worthwhile to grind for... Because right now... It's the choice between a douche and a turd sandwich. (With some minor exception... None of which is the 2hr. And any job with a Circle JA got royally screwed over. Hey SE, "stop trying to make Fetch happen.")

Which is what "I'd rather have an augment for something I use 99% of the time rather than 1%" means...
But seeing as how you're a MNK...
Maybe you believe everyone uses their 2hrs like you do?
Maybe you're just selfish and want more MNK stuff?
I don't know.
But what I do know is that 2hr Job Point Merits are already in existence.
We don't need more.

EDIT: I should also probably clarify... Since it seems that you are under the delusion that plagues so much if humanity... That special brand of stupid known as: binary thinking...
Wherein a being has to like something 100% to like it, and if they dislike an aspect of it, then they must too then dislike all of it.
Which is just plain stupid.
I like the JP system.
I dislike how it is currently set up: promoting solo play, discouraging parties.
I also dislike many, if not most, of the current augments... But I don't see the need to really complain about that, because I know there's gonna be actual useful ones as soon as the early April update. (Cause now we should be getting JA that people actually use.)
I also find the decision to go with "low level" traits to be especially... Odd.
These don't work at lower levels like Merits do, at least we've no word if they do.
And lower level traits are often tossed to the wayside at 99... Which given how this is basically "99 only Merits"... Why the need to start with abilities no one uses?
Just because I critique something doesn't mean I dislike it.
That's just an idiotic way to view the world.

[Olor]

It goes a little slower then nuking them down on rdm with t1 spells but not that much and the mp cost, recast is really low and much safer then trying to keep all the mobs slept.

yeah I finally managed to get through Kahmir and it was on RDM... and it was horrible.

What people don't understand is I knew HOW to get through the walls, but really, a system that requires people to spend 2 hours spamming stone 1 at a wall to make progress is a stupid system.

The only thing that made it halfway bearable was the fact that I could at least gain skill ups now.

[Underpanties]

Scholar's job point ability is actually quite good, and if the grind wasn't so horrible, I'd go out of my way to cap it -

Extra 30 seconds of regen, buffed up with Perpetuation/+2 Savant's Bracers = extra 75 sec of Regen.

Base duration of Regen V is 110 sec. The job points almost double it, and if you've never tried a SCH main healer, it is absolutely amazing on all but the absolute toughest content, and beats out whm in many ways.

AoE'd/perp'd regen V + Phalanx = scholar that doesn't have to do anything for the rest of the fight.

[Kimjongil]

Scholar's job point ability is actually quite good, and if the grind wasn't so horrible, I'd go out of my way to cap it -

Extra 30 seconds of regen, buffed up with Perpetuation/+2 Savant's Bracers = extra 75 sec of Regen.

Base duration of Regen V is 110 sec. The job points almost double it, and if you've never tried a SCH main healer, it is absolutely amazing on all but the absolute toughest content, and beats out whm in many ways.

AoE'd/perp'd regen V + Phalanx = scholar that doesn't have to do anything for the rest of the fight.

I agree, I am doing this for my sch. Well he is afk while my blu grinds the points. Blu and sch made out pretty well. But the grind is bad

I can honestly seeing this become the next rmt hot spot. It is not hard to have a war and rdm pull all and sell four spots.

[Demonjustin]

I can honestly seeing this become the next rmt hot spot. It is not hard to have a war and rdm pull all and sell four spots.I'm amazed no one seems to be FCing them, I mean Marjami Ravine mobs can hardly hurt my RDM in refresh gear with Pro/Shell & Phalanx, I can hardly imagine what a WAR could do in full 119 Cizin with PDT Augments and RDM buffs could do to them. FCs would be insanely easy and possibly very profitable, yet, no one seems to care.

[Olor]

I'm amazed no one seems to be FCing them, I mean Marjami Ravine mobs can hardly hurt my RDM in refresh gear with Pro/Shell & Phalanx, I can hardly imagine what a WAR could do in full 119 Cizin with PDT Augments and RDM buffs could do to them. FCs would be insanely easy and possibly very profitable, yet, no one seems to care.

I dunno. Population of Asura was around 800 last night. I mean, yeah, Monday night, but those are some very low numbers. No one seems to be doing much of anything right now.

[Demonjustin]

Admittedly Phoenix was at 719 earlier today(722 now) so population may be a part of it.

[Olor]

yeah the population levels are getting worrisome. I mean they could always do a server merge, but that would drive players away too. It's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they would at least do the double subscription deal with XIV that they used to have, folks might sub to XI and pop in now and again when they were capped on mythic tomes or whatnot, but not worthwhile for full sub price.

[machini]

yeah the population levels are getting worrisome. I mean they could always do a server merge, but that would drive players away too. It's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they would at least do the double subscription deal with XIV that they used to have, folks might sub to XI and pop in now and again when they were capped on mythic tomes or whatnot, but not worthwhile for full sub price.

They should never have made XIV in the first place.

[Camate]

Hello, everyone.

Thanks for all the feedback on the job point system.

I wanted to let you know about some upcoming plans, not only for job points, but for the merit point system as well.

As mentioned during "Freshly Picked Vana’diel 5 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/40822-Freshly-Picked-Vana%E2%80%99diel-5-Digest?p=499748&viewfull=1#post499748)" we will be adding new job point categories, and the next set will be implemented in the upcoming version update. To prepare for this, as well as aid current efforts to enhance your jobs, we'll be holding a special “Double Capacity Point Campaign” that is set to begin on April 18th.

On the merit point front, you can rest assured that the development team hasn’t forgotten about this system even with the advent of the job point system. After the June version update we will be increasing the caps on certain merit point categories – meaning that if you’ve already increased HP to stage 15, you’ll be able to put merit points into MP. We’re also looking into increasing the amount of merit points you can store at once.

[Dreamin]

Hello, everyone.

Thanks for all the feedback on the job point system.

I wanted to let you know about some upcoming plans, not only for job points, but for the merit point system as well.

As mentioned during "Freshly Picked Vana’diel 5 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/40822-Freshly-Picked-Vana%E2%80%99diel-5-Digest?p=499748&viewfull=1#post499748)" we will be adding new job point categories, and the next set will be implemented in the upcoming version update. To prepare for this, as well as aid current efforts to enhance your jobs, we'll be holding a special “Double Capacity Point Campaign” that is set to begin on April 18th.

On the merit point front, you can rest assured that the development team hasn’t forgotten about this system even with the advent of the job point system. After the June version update we will be increasing the caps on certain merit point categories – meaning that if you’ve already increased HP to stage 15, you’ll be able to put merit points into MP. We’re also looking into increasing the amount of merit points you can store at once.

Please also address the heavy penalty on capactiy point when one is in a party. For example, when solo'ing out in Yorica Weald (as well as using trusts), I would get 120-130 cp per mobs. But when I'm in a party of just 2 (1 other real player/person), the cp drops to 65-70. I can understand and maybe even live with a few percentage penalty, but what we have here is basically a 50% penalty on just 2 person real party. This really give the player base ZERO incentive to party up at all when you only have 1 or 2 other players that want to form a party to farm CP/JP.

[Byrth]

On the merit point front, you can rest assured that the development team hasn’t forgotten about this system even with the advent of the job point system. After the June version update we will be increasing the caps on certain merit point categories – meaning that if you’ve already increased HP to stage 15, you’ll be able to put merit points into MP. We’re also looking into increasing the amount of merit points you can store at once.

Hello Camate,

Could you possibly get some information about which categories are going to be expanded? I would love to see a cap increase for the job-specific categories.

- Byrth

[Demonjustin]

If the amount needed isn't reduced, even doubling it won't make me think about doing this, it's not worth the time.

[Kaeviathan]

I dislike how slow it is to obtain capacity points in the game. Not even the idea of double capacity point campaign intrigues me. If we're trying to bring back merit parties like the old days, a lot of jobs gonna be left behind. Who is gonna want to party up with a blm, run, pld, dnc, nin, pup, geo, bst, thf, rng and smns? To most of us, they are considered jobs not suited for exp/merit parties. Only used for certain strategic situations. Having to acquire job points for a specific job with having to use that job as the only method in doing so was a terrible idea to begin with.

[Manque]

The JP Dev post offered more information on the merit expansion. Specifically, that they're not planning on adjusting the WS category.

I wish they would reconsider that in particular. I understand wanting to make people specialize, but I don't think that's the vanadiel we're in anymore.

[Shadax]

Even on BLU, which is a pretty efficient solo job, and with Trust npcs, I was barely able to make 5k capacity points per hour. That's six hours of grinding for one Job Point. So yeah, even a double capacity point campaign wouldn't make a dent in most people's progress.

[Byrth]

You probably need to adjust your camp (not that it's really worth it). The best I've been able to do is about 20k points per hour on DNC. In order to get the 220 job points required to cap out after the next update I would have to farm DC monsters for 330 hours. There are two ways to look at this, in my opinion:
1) How horrible! 330 hours would eat my 2 hours per night for the next 150 days! Not only that, but I'll farm enough XP in the process to level all jobs to 99 and fully merit them (twice).
2) When the merit system was initially released, people were getting about 8k/hr in good merit parties. That means that, for fortunate jobs, this system is somewhat comparable to release-day merit points.

I definitely feel both of the above ways, but (as the title points out), the benefits offered by job points are minimal. There's nothing that says we need to cap out. Thus I am actually more inclined to go with option 3:
3) The benefits of job points are so minimal that I don't really want to farm them seriously. It's just an option to improve my character that I can take advantage of when I'm tired of doing other things.

[THD]

You probably need to adjust your camp (not that it's really worth it). The best I've been able to do is about 20k points per hour on DNC. In order to get the 220 job points required to cap out after the next update I would have to farm DC monsters for 330 hours. There are two ways to look at this, in my opinion:
1) How horrible! 330 hours would eat my 2 hours per night for the next 150 days! Not only that, but I'll farm enough XP in the process to level all jobs to 99 and fully merit them (twice).
2) When the merit system was initially released, people were getting about 8k/hr in good merit parties. That means that, for fortunate jobs, this system is somewhat comparable to release-day merit points.

I definitely feel both of the above ways, but (as the title points out), the benefits offered by job points are minimal. There's nothing that says we need to cap out. Thus I am actually more inclined to go with option 3:
3) The benefits of job points are so minimal that I don't really want to farm them seriously. It's just an option to improve my character that I can take advantage of when I'm tired of doing other things.

You are on DNC, a good solo job. However, try that with BRD, WHM, or other support. Even with Trust, I doubt you could sustain your quoted 20K/hr.

Overall, I like the concept; the execution is still flawed and needs tweaked.

OTHER SUGGESTIONS/ALTERNATIVES
1) Create a system where we could convert merit points into job points (e.g. 10 merits per 1 job point)
2) As we are able to toggle between exp and limit points, allow a toggle to convert exp to capacity points (e.g. solo kill: 1000xp/100cp -> 0xp/500cp).
3) Add an item to allow capacity point bonus (akin to an Emperor/Empress Ring).

[Evogolist]

I haven't had a chance to fully read through this thread and the suggestion that I had I was going to place in the QoL thread, but seeing as how it(my suggestion) concerns the Job Point System I figured I'd place it in this thread.

Anyways, I'm not a game dev and I have zero knowledge on game design, but if I wanted to market a new in-game system to both existing and new players, the dev team needs to understand that the current Job Point system isn't the way. The current Job Point System is really nothing more than a even more tedious, uneventful, and even more less than fun version of the lvling/merit system. On top of that, majority of the jobs don't really offer anything worthwhile and CP takes forever to build up just for what...one job point maybe?

In another thread someone mention more advanced jobs that would go off of the lvled 99 jobs that a player has. To me that would seem more like a better use and reward of the Job Point system than it's current state. I know it's too late to change the system itself, but this could be something that's added somewhere down the line. A certain amount of points to unlock said Job and then the job abilities itself.

All I'm saying is with the SoA expansion, mobs are getting stronger and with the addition of more powerful jobs that branch off of our lvl 99 jobs via the job point system that would possibly be a good...maybe even better use to the JP system than it is now.

[Tennotsukai]

Even on BLU, which is a pretty efficient solo job, and with Trust npcs, I was barely able to make 5k capacity points per hour. That's six hours of grinding for one Job Point. So yeah, even a double capacity point campaign wouldn't make a dent in most people's progress.

Can triple that with blu burning.

[doctorugh]

Suggestions:

Add only 10% decrease to capacity points for each member as they are added (2 member -10/100, 3 member -9/90, 4 member -8/81, 5 member -7/73, 6 member -6/66) so you would be at 60% of regular capacity points with 6 member vs 1.

Let Corsairs roll work for this.

Add large amount of capacity points for events they want to promote (if most ppl done with AA or other fights, add 15k capacity points to the event)

Allow for trade of other currencies (merit points, w/e) in proper quanties for exchange of capacity points. For example: 10/1 for merit points to capacity (this would allow you to farm on BLU for example (getting some capacity points) and then use the merits gain to switch to RNG and use on it.

[Trumpy]

THD, Byrth said the BEST he could do was 20k/h on dnc. So obviously he didnt mean you could go out on your whm and get 20k/h. given the best rate of gain he then speculated how long it would take to gain job points. So it would be naturally harder to do on whm or whatever job you might come up with. He in no way said you could get 20k on every job.

[THD]

THD, Byrth said the BEST he could do was 20k/h on dnc. So obviously he didnt mean you could go out on your whm and get 20k/h. given the best rate of gain he then speculated how long it would take to gain job points. So it would be naturally harder to do on whm or whatever job you might come up with. He in no way said you could get 20k on every job.

I know he said it was the best... It was more of a rhetorical question/comment.

[predatory]

Are we ignoring the fact that it's going to take, even if it's only 1 job point per level of job point system option, 1.8 million experience points to get something maxed out? That's at a minimum. If the progression of required points is more like Merits, we're probably looking at something more like 4.5 million experience per job point ability maxed out, and 9 for a current job's two abilities

Casuals keep killing this game with all the I wants and gimme everything free bs. Just stop already, jesus h christ this isnt supposed to be a beginners level game, for that theres wow and xiv. Quit with the QQ its too hard crap already. You can take you first job to 99 and be fully merited in a week, you can have all the old content done in a month, and have maxxed our gear in 3 months, then what?

[Puck]

The JP Dev post offered more information on the merit expansion. Specifically, that they're not planning on adjusting the WS category.

I wish they would reconsider that in particular. I understand wanting to make people specialize, but I don't think that's the vanadiel we're in anymore.
^100x this. It's to the point where I might consider playing a new job, then realize, "Oh, it needs a certain merit WS? Looks like I won't be playing that one." I'm already maxed out on 3 merit WS that are crucial, so I'd rather not gimp one of them to unlock others (which, in turn, would also be gimped).

And really, forcing people to specialize goes against one of FFXI's major selling points: being able to play any and all jobs on a single character.

[Ravenmore]

Casuals keep killing this game with all the I wants and gimme everything free bs. Just stop already, jesus h christ this isnt supposed to be a beginners level game, for that theres wow and xiv. Quit with the QQ its too hard crap already. You can take you first job to 99 and be fully merited in a week, you can have all the old content done in a month, and have maxxed our gear in 3 months, then what?

Though every hardcore player could quit tomorrow and the game would keep chugging on and with a quick change to some values the dirty casuals would still keep clearing content. On the other hand if all the casuals left the game would shut down in a week, we already been over this. The hardcore grind niche is a very poor niche to fill and not very profitable and not something PvE games can pull off and only reason EVE can pull this off is they have a very extensive PvP that is some what balanced, that and you can blow up thousands of real life dollars.

[Demonjustin]

Casuals keep killing this game with all the I wants and gimme everything free bs. Just stop already, jesus h christ this isnt supposed to be a beginners level game, for that theres wow and xiv. Quit with the QQ its too hard crap already. You can take you first job to 99 and be fully merited in a week, you can have all the old content done in a month, and have maxxed our gear in 3 months, then what?Then you gear other jobs, merit them, take things to extremes and try to max out everything about your job, make gil, create Mythics. There's a lot more to this game than what Job Points could ever offer in terms of depth... To defend this terrible system is pathetic.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

Then you gear other jobs, merit them, take things to extremes and try to max out everything about your job, make gil, create Mythics. There's a lot more to this game than what Job Points could ever offer in terms of depth... To defend this terrible system is pathetic.

The only one reason I can think of at the moment to defend the job points thread simply is because of at this moment, this is the only route the dev teams have taken into fixing the blue mages points system for spells to be used and I rather wished they would have took an actual better approach to fixing the blue mages jobs for the better use in a lot more situations but it still remains there are still certain fixes that could have been done to blue instead of just the points in the end.

Just wanted to report that I usually only mention anything about the blue mage fixin's in the Blue mage Job adjustments thread and figured you might not of heard of the thread but I do know a few who have replied in this thread who have few replies to the blue mage thread as well.

[predatory]

Then you gear other jobs, merit them, take things to extremes and try to max out everything about your job, make gil, create Mythics. There's a lot more to this game than what Job Points could ever offer in terms of depth... To defend this terrible system is pathetic.

The system is fine, the rewards per job could stand some tweaking and I'm sure that will happen over time, but leave the point system as is. I mean for gods sake stop taking all the work out of every single part of the game. Its starting to feel like everyone wants to just sit around collecting agubmint check for their chars, rather actually putting in the effort to do anything.

[predatory]

Though every hardcore player could quit tomorrow and the game would keep chugging on and with a quick change to some values the dirty casuals would still keep clearing content. On the other hand if all the casuals left the game would shut down in a week, we already been over this. The hardcore grind niche is a very poor niche to fill and not very profitable and not something PvE games can pull off and only reason EVE can pull this off is they have a very extensive PvP that is some what balanced, that and you can blow up thousands of real life dollars.

We must be defining dirty casuals differently. My definition is more about the a**hat noob who starts playing one day and thinks they should have everything the game has to offer by the end of their 30 day trial, and have generally quit in 3 or 4 months. This is generally the jackass that brays the loudest that things are too hard and should be easier. Unfortunately these are the very same people SE listens to as they dumb down our game and gradually make it easier to play than go fish

So, are our definitions alike?

[Camiie]

We must be defining dirty casuals differently. My definition is more about the a**hat noob who starts playing one day and thinks they should have everything the game has to offer by the end of their 30 day trial, and have generally quit in 3 or 4 months. This is generally the jackass that brays the loudest that things are too hard and should be easier. Unfortunately these are the very same people SE listens to as they dumb down our game and gradually make it easier to play than go fish

So, are our definitions alike?

This mythical group of people you made up in your head don't really count.

[predatory]

This mythical group of people you made up in your head don't really count.

Actually that isn't a mythical group at all, Ive met too many just like that on both Bahamut and Ramuh before that. There's a prime example of this behavior just one or two pages over it this same forum (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/39802-I-think-I-m-finished-a-new-player-s-final-thoughts)

[Demonjustin]

The system is fine, the rewards per job could stand some tweaking and I'm sure that will happen over time, but leave the point system as is. I mean for gods sake stop taking all the work out of every single part of the game. Its starting to feel like everyone wants to just sit around collecting agubmint check for their chars, rather actually putting in the effort to do anything.I would love to take some time to do a few parties to get points and upgrade my RDM. Sitting around for countless hours to obtain an insane amount of points for any upgrade isn't my idea of fun or entertainment nor would I subject myself to such a stupid system. You say everyone wants to be lazy, ok sure, sometimes people are. But if you want to say this system being changed would be an extension of such a thing when it's currently such an asinine and ludicrous system that not only bores people to death but consumes a ton of time for no reason, no. The system as it is is nothing less than stupid, asking it not to take hours for a single point and days for a single capped category is far from lazy.


Actually that isn't a mythical group at all, Ive met too many just like that on both Bahamut and Ramuh before that. There's a prime example of this behavior just one or two pages over it this same forum (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/39802-I-think-I-m-finished-a-new-player-s-final-thoughts)By your own words.
My definition is more about the a**hat noob who starts playing one day and thinks they should have everything the game has to offer by the end of their 30 day trialUnless I'm mistaken the primary complaint of that thread was the amount of time people had to waste to get things done even if they were almost entirely unrelated and not only old but insanely easy content. I not once saw the OP of that thread ask for Relics, Mythics, or Empyreans to fall from the sky, nor did they ask Delve wins to be easier, hell, they didn't even get to the point they knew what Delve actually was so far as I know. To say that's an example of someone wanting 'everything the game has to offer by the end of their trial' is stupid because I can't think of anyone I met who actually wanted that. People might want the game to be more accessible or, I don't know, fun, when joining the game rather than wading through hours upon hours of boring BS to get somewhere fun for this game, yet everyone acts like unless you do the boring BS you're not worthy. In either case, the bottom line is it's not an example of what you described.

[predatory]

I would love to take some time to do a few parties to get points and upgrade my RDM. Sitting around for countless hours to obtain an insane amount of points for any upgrade isn't my idea of fun or entertainment nor would I subject myself to such a stupid system. You say everyone wants to be lazy, ok sure, sometimes people are. But if you want to say this system being changed would be an extension of such a thing when it's currently such an asinine and ludicrous system that not only bores people to death but consumes a ton of time for no reason, no. The system as it is is nothing less than stupid, asking it not to take hours for a single point and days for a single capped category is far from lazy.

By your own words.Unless I'm mistaken the primary complaint of that thread was the amount of time people had to waste to get things done even if they were almost entirely unrelated and not only old but insanely easy content. I not once saw the OP of that thread ask for Relics, Mythics, or Empyreans to fall from the sky, nor did they ask Delve wins to be easier, hell, they didn't even get to the point they knew what Delve actually was so far as I know. To say that's an example of someone wanting 'everything the game has to offer by the end of their trial' is stupid because I can't think of anyone I met who actually wanted that. People might want the game to be more accessible or, I don't know, fun, when joining the game rather than wading through hours upon hours of boring BS to get somewhere fun for this game, yet everyone acts like unless you do the boring BS you're not worthy. In either case, the bottom line is it's not an example of what you described.

Was responding to a comment made to me, not to the OP in that last quote of mine, but you knew that because you read it and quoted it didn't you?

Btw, if you don't want to do the cont, then don't do it. But how about leaving it alone for those of us who actually do like to xp? Or does everything have to be in welfare queen mode?

[Ravenmore]

The Ever Quest MMO model is long dead and as I have mention before one of the creators of EQ has failed several times to get kick starters to even half of the goal to develop such a game. As you most likely don't know FFXI started as nothing more then a EQ clone with the "Final Fantasy" brand and it's main niche was being a Final Fantasy MMO nothing else.The devs like all earlier MMOs used the grind to extend content while producing new content at a sail pace. Sorry you are one of the people that think mindless grinding=difficulty.

I don't think everything should be handed to plays and have defended the CoP requirements for reforging but that isn't mindless and at the very least you are still rewarded with a good story.

[Byrth]

I finished capping DNC this morning. I got over 5000 merits in the process.

BARANSU

[Damane]

I finished capping DNC this morning. I got over 5000 merits in the process.

BARANSU

i cant stop laughing lol

[Demonjustin]

Was responding to a comment made to me, not to the OP in that last quote of mine, but you knew that because you read it and quoted it didn't you?Yes, I did, that's why I replied to what you said as you said it not as though it were a reply to the OP of that thread. The reply I made was meant to show how the OP of that thread did not fit into the category of players you had provided, which disproved your point that the OP was in fact one of those people. You gave them and their thread as an example even though they don't seem to fit the description you gave. I fully understand your post, I'm not sure you understood the context of mine however if you didn't realise my post was meant to disprove they're part of that subset of players rather than replying to a reply to that thread of some sort.


Btw, if you don't want to do the cont, then don't do it. But how about leaving it alone for those of us who actually do like to xp? Or does everything have to be in welfare queen mode?If you like to XP then do XP. Making it more feasible for the majority of players to obtain these points won't magically make it so that you can't do XP parties anymore. It's actually quite the opposite, right now the interest in doing this is so low I probably couldn't find 6 people who want to farm these points out of all the people I know, and I know a lot of people. By making it more feasible it would actually get more interest, which means more parties overall and in the end if you legitimately enjoy doing XP parties it gives you a ton more people and groups to do it with.

You also seem to once again go with the whole 'you want everything handed to you and don't want to work for it' mentality but I fail to see how this and that are the same at all. Asking for something to be made less boring and needlessly grindy is far from lazy, I personally want to do this, I just won't subject myself to countless hours of XPing for it the way I need to now. I'm not saying I want to cap a category an hour, but the speed it's at now is slow enough it takes more than a day to get a category to cap, more than 24 hours of farming for that, that's stupid.

[predatory]

Yes, I did, that's why I replied to what you said as you said it not as though it were a reply to the OP of that thread. The reply I made was meant to show how the OP of that thread did not fit into the category of players you had provided, which disproved your point that the OP was in fact one of those people. You gave them and their thread as an example even though they don't seem to fit the description you gave. I fully understand your post, I'm not sure you understood the context of mine however if you didn't realise my post was meant to disprove they're part of that subset of players rather than replying to a reply to that thread of some sort.

If you like to XP then do XP. Making it more feasible for the majority of players to obtain these points won't magically make it so that you can't do XP parties anymore. It's actually quite the opposite, right now the interest in doing this is so low I probably couldn't find 6 people who want to farm these points out of all the people I know, and I know a lot of people. By making it more feasible it would actually get more interest, which means more parties overall and in the end if you legitimately enjoy doing XP parties it gives you a ton more people and groups to do it with.

You also seem to once again go with the whole 'you want everything handed to you and don't want to work for it' mentality but I fail to see how this and that are the same at all. Asking for something to be made less boring and needlessly grindy is far from lazy, I personally want to do this, I just won't subject myself to countless hours of XPing for it the way I need to now. I'm not saying I want to cap a category an hour, but the speed it's at now is slow enough it takes more than a day to get a category to cap, more than 24 hours of farming for that, that's stupid.

Lol, just lol

[Afania]

The Ever Quest MMO model is long dead and as I have mention before one of the creators of EQ has failed several times to get kick starters to even half of the goal to develop such a game. As you most likely don't know FFXI started as nothing more then a EQ clone with the "Final Fantasy" brand and it's main niche was being a Final Fantasy MMO nothing else.The devs like all earlier MMOs used the grind to extend content while producing new content at a sail pace. Sorry you are one of the people that think mindless grinding=difficulty.

I don't think everything should be handed to plays and have defended the CoP requirements for reforging but that isn't mindless and at the very least you are still rewarded with a good story.

Exactly which kick starter title is that? I've been doing research on KS for a while now and sometimes a failed campaign is not always because the idea fails, sometimes they failed because of failed marketing, or having unrealistic goal. I do know a lot of people still view EQ as the greatest MMO ever exist, just those people is enough to support another title similar to EQ but with minor twist/more streamlined.

I don't view "mindless grinding= difficulty", but I do think a goal takes longer to accomplish is not bad for MMO. Short term goals simply_just_doesn't_work in a PVE only themepark MMO, unless you have A LOT of short term goals or have very good PVP, or unless the title is sandbox. I also think content that require players to spend more time on making connections and build a stronger community is more beneficial to a MMO.

THAT is the real reason why older EQ/FFXI was considered a classic. It was never because it made players grind mindlessly for ages, but the fact that you need to make friends in the game to progress, and it kept the players together(or become player's 2nd life, if you view it in a more negative way).

[predatory]

Exactly which kick starter title is that? I've been doing research on KS for a while now and sometimes a failed campaign is not always because the idea fails, sometimes they failed because of failed marketing, or having unrealistic goal. I do know a lot of people still view EQ as the greatest MMO ever exist, just those people is enough to support another title similar to EQ but with minor twist/more streamlined.

I don't view "mindless grinding= difficulty", but I do think a goal takes longer to accomplish is not bad for MMO. Short term goals simply_just_doesn't_work in a PVE only themepark MMO, unless you have A LOT of short term goals or have very good PVP, or unless the title is sandbox. I also think content that require players to spend more time on making connections and build a stronger community is more beneficial to a MMO.

THAT is the real reason why older EQ/FFXI was considered a classic. It was never because it made players grind mindlessly for ages, but the fact that you need to make friends in the game to progress, and it kept the players together(or become player's 2nd life, if you view it in a more negative way).

The problem is this new brand of player wants everything really quick, and most of us old-timers left when or soon after they announced they were raising the level cap to 99 I've seen a couple of people from the old days, but they don't stay for long because they say the game has become a joke, and they're right. There are very few long term goals to achieve, people don't hang out like they used to because you used to level with the same people day in and day out, and beacame friends with them, sometiimes in real life, the endgame content is getting better thanks to them adding hardmode, but before that other than delve it was non-existent, everything is easy, nothing takes time anymoire, helll I came back from a break a few days ago and now theres a welfare map vendor in upper jeuno, (welfare because those used to be quested and coffer pop maps that now cost a few gil), at the rates its going someday im gonna be able to pay se 20 bux and get a level 99 char fully loaded with all the best gear. You people are taking all the challenges (time wise, and actual challenge wise )out of the game. and think you're making it better, but you're not, you're making it something a baby could play in its sleep.

Alfana good for you for seeing through this welfare queen mentality going on in this game. Need more people willing to tell the devs to stop this make it easy for lazy people crap

[Ravenmore]

Exactly which kick starter title is that? I've been doing research on KS for a while now and sometimes a failed campaign is not always because the idea fails, sometimes they failed because of failed marketing, or having unrealistic goal. I do know a lot of people still view EQ as the greatest MMO ever exist, just those people is enough to support another title similar to EQ but with minor twist/more streamlined.

I don't view "mindless grinding= difficulty", but I do think a goal takes longer to accomplish is not bad for MMO. Short term goals simply_just_doesn't_work in a PVE only themepark MMO, unless you have A LOT of short term goals or have very good PVP, or unless the title is sandbox. I also think content that require players to spend more time on making connections and build a stronger community is more beneficial to a MMO.

THAT is the real reason why older EQ/FFXI was considered a classic. It was never because it made players grind mindlessly for ages, but the fact that you need to make friends in the game to progress, and it kept the players together(or become player's 2nd life, if you view it in a more negative way).

Brad McQuaid is the dev from EQ asking for the money and "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen" is the title and I was wrong he did get passed the half way mark by 7% and was seeking 800k to get started not so unrealistic little high but not by that much for a MMO. It really didn't bring much of anything new to the table and abut the nly stand out concept was visible loot but even that is kinda meh neat and not OMFG neat.

The thing is people only think they were having fun while the people around them seen the hell they really went though. A game based around long grinds will not fly in to days market. Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

[Olor]

Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

This pretty much. The generation that grew up on MMOs (and is likely still the biggest user group for them) is getting older. They are having kids. They have full time work.

People don't want to live their entire life on a game anymore. I personally love the changes they have made to XI. Even though there are some roadblocks I don't love, I do appreciate that every time I log on lately there is something I can work on that results in meaningful progress for my character. Once in awhile I have some time to binge on the game, and my character makes great strides. There is still a lot in this game that folks like me can't reach, but now that the power difference between people that have time to say, farm a mythic, and people like me has evened out significantly, I'm pretty okay with that.

I would not be here if it still took a year or more to level a job to cap.

[Afania]

Brad McQuaid is the dev from EQ asking for the money and "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen" is the title and I was wrong he did get passed the half way mark by 7% and was seeking 800k to get started not so unrealistic little high but not by that much for a MMO. It really didn't bring much of anything new to the table and abut the nly stand out concept was visible loot but even that is kinda meh neat and not OMFG neat.

The thing is people only think they were having fun while the people around them seen the hell they really went though. A game based around long grinds will not fly in to days market. Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

800k is a lot as a KS project, but it is not a lot for a "spiritual successor" of a classic title, however, I do think this project had failed marketing. It just had a bad sales pitch.

I checked the project page. They failed to present their project with classic EQ "having an adventure in another world" feel to create some sort of nostalgic feel for the fans. I'm a big fan of EQ/FFXI design and WoW/FFXIV ARR hater, so technically, I'm his target audience if he wants to create EQ type of game. Even then his concept failed to make me interested.

Everything they said in the introduction video(I didn't watch every video, just the introduction video, but their introduction video made me NOT want to continue watching more because it's not interesting), can probably apply to almost every other MMO out there. Such as WoW, FFXIV ARR, or SWTOR.

They did said something about grouping, but almost every modern MMO has grouping, and group only content. However, having grouping content/force grouping content is NOT what makes FFXI/EQ different from WoW/SWTOR/ARR.

The entire project just feels like "Hey, I'm an EQ dev, I want to make my next MMO, you can do grouping and you can kill bosses, like every other MMO out there."

There is just something different in FFXI, that is more than grouping, grinding and killing bosses. Mostly the feel that you're living in a virtual world, a dangerous world full of adventure, and all the connections you built, that formed a cohesive community. And things you've done that actually feel connected to your avatar, not just another achievement point, but your OWN CHARACTER's story. You know, the immersion. I will be interested in a game like this, I wouldn't be interested in a game "with group content and you can kill bosses"


Some say what makes FFXI different from WoW/ARR is the grind, and "being time consuming". However, having to grind is not what makes it stand out. Tons of Korean MMO or Asian MMO made you grind as much as FFXI. None of those titles ever interest me. In fact back when I played WoW it was a lot of grind to endgame too, AND it was way less interesting than FFXI.

"Being time consuming" and not good for players with a family, is not FFXI's trademark. MMO genre has been more time consuming than other genre for ages. I know plenty of ppl played ARR 12hr a day. 6 million players forget their job and family to play WoW and earn raid gears, true story. MMO addiction became an issue after WoW era, when more people dropped out of school or lost job because of WoW. I know plenty of MMO addicts irl that just failed at everything, but not because of FFXI, but WoW or Lineage. "Being time consuming" is just, part of MMO that can't be avoided unless you don't play MMO at all. And that's not FFXI's fault, it's the the nature of this genre.


Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen project fail does not indicate building immersion in a MMO is a failed direction. It only indicate the sales pitch fails. I play MMORPG to escape from reality, to live a second life. I don't think this niche market is big at all, but it should be big enough to support $800k. The problem is, they failed to make their game appealing to this niche market. Do you think telling people "Hey, you can kill bosses and you have to group for some content in this MMO" makes a MMO good? No.

They have to tell me what I can do in the game that would give me a memorable adventure to live an interesting life as my character.





The thing is people only think they were having fun while the people around them seen the hell they really went though. A game based around long grinds will not fly in to days market. Sorry to the old fans that still have no life outside of a MMO and can devote the massive time investment to a game for little reward. Old timers are moving away as fast as new fans they have lives outside of their rooms now so while the no lifers will get everything really fast it will still take the people that don't spend more the a couple hours a day time to make progression. The majority of the potential MMO fan base is no longer like that and so Devs will move away from the old models.

Brad McQuaid said nothing about "Hey look, we're making this next MMO that will make you grind 10 months to get to endgame". He only said he wanted to make a generic, uninteresting MMO. That's why he failed. Nobody's interested in another MMO to make party and kill bosses.

What makes FFXI great is never just about the grind, but something a lot more complex, memorable and immersive than grind. I'm sorry if you failed to see this after years of playing. I've played majority of current-gen MMO including currently popular TESO, IMO FFXI is still the best RPG experience I ever have in my life.

[Afania]

People don't want to live their entire life on a game anymore.

This is false.

I know plenty of ppl live their entire life on WoW, FFXIV ARR, LOL, D3, <insert your online game title here>, to a point to be jobless at age 30+. Players not wanting to live their entire life on a game isn't FFXI issue.

[Olor]

This is false.

I know plenty of ppl live their entire life on WoW, FFXIV ARR, LOL, D3, <insert your online game title here>, to a point to be jobless at age 30+. Players not wanting to live their entire life on a game isn't FFXI issue.

Well whether you know "plenty" of those people or not, they are a very very very tiny insignificant minority of people who can't alone support any game.

[Lithera]

Because XI never had a story that even got national attention about an LS trying to beat a certain NM when it was still new 18+ hrs straight. I have read posts on this forums and heard of others while in game having quit because of the grind the game put on you back in the 75 cap days. Shit I know of a few relationships that have ended because of playing XI too much. So to say that it never happens or didn't is just fooling yourself. Heck I know people who would play this at work. Done a few time consuming events with those same at work people. One of the complaints I would read on here or see in shouts or during parties was about how hard the grind was.

[bungiefanNA]

http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff11

Having a game that takes hundreds of hours to be able to function with other people that have been playing longer than you is a bad thing. MMO addiction is a big problem. It's nice for FFXI to be more accessible without taking hours to form a party and get to camp, so you can play for a reasonable amount of time and still make progress, like an offline RPG. My free time has shortened as I got older, and I never really had much back when I was 19 when the game came out, though I've stayed subscribed. It took me 8 years under the original XP system to get my first job to 75, with my subjob at 40 (BLM and WHM respectively). Being able to pick up a new job and make progress on it has been a godsend, and I'm finally able to complete the missions I could never get a static group to hold together for for more than 3 missions in a row (people would quit, or their LS would bump them ahead of us and they wouldn't come back for the static). MMOs can't be like EQ1 with a huge grind anymore. Society is more aware of them, and ones that require players to play for 8 hour sessions and eat up all the free time of a player will get bad press. I was already aware of the problem before FFXI, when it was called EverCrack, and lost a friend to it and another to early WoW that way.

Everything isn't instant, but you don't have to waste time idling while trying to get the perfect group and having a long travel time to some place. There are so many events, they wanted people to be able to do them quickly, and the census said people weren't doing a lot of events.

[Kaeviathan]

I went and farmed 5 job points today. After that, i went and used them. Considering how long it is to get 30,000 capability points, I thought upgrades were gonna be 1>1>1>1>etc. But I was wrong. It increases by 1 (1>2>3>...) It is frustrating that it takes too much work. I don't see myself getting these upgrades for a lot of jobs I have in the future. It's a waste of time.

I want some of these upgrades badly!!! But I'm not willing to spend too much unnecessary hours for this.

If no changes are to be done for this, then heres to hoping that the new job ability upgrades be just as useless as some we have presently.

[Afania]

Well whether you know "plenty" of those people or not, they are a very very very tiny insignificant minority of people who can't alone support any game.

It doesn't matter, you made it sound like it's FFXI issue, I'm just telling you this is not. Don't blame FFXI for having players play longer than 2hr a day.

[Afania]

http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff11

Having a game that takes hundreds of hours to be able to function with other people that have been playing longer than you is a bad thing. MMO addiction is a big problem. It's nice for FFXI to be more accessible without taking hours to form a party and get to camp, so you can play for a reasonable amount of time and still make progress, like an offline RPG. My free time has shortened as I got older, and I never really had much back when I was 19 when the game came out, though I've stayed subscribed. It took me 8 years under the original XP system to get my first job to 75, with my subjob at 40 (BLM and WHM respectively). Being able to pick up a new job and make progress on it has been a godsend, and I'm finally able to complete the missions I could never get a static group to hold together for for more than 3 missions in a row (people would quit, or their LS would bump them ahead of us and they wouldn't come back for the static). MMOs can't be like EQ1 with a huge grind anymore. Society is more aware of them, and ones that require players to play for 8 hour sessions and eat up all the free time of a player will get bad press. I was already aware of the problem before FFXI, when it was called EverCrack, and lost a friend to it and another to early WoW that way.

Everything isn't instant, but you don't have to waste time idling while trying to get the perfect group and having a long travel time to some place. There are so many events, they wanted people to be able to do them quickly, and the census said people weren't doing a lot of events.

I don't really agree with you. First of all, MMO addiction is a big problem because MMO dev(Blizzard, I'm looking at you) hire psychology experts to implement designs to make players play their game longer, so players don't play for 3 months and quit, leaving empty servers. MMO also functions differently from single player game, so that's kinda necessary for them. Whether you like their approach or not, you can't make a MMO and have every player play like a single player game for 3 months and quit. I know everyone would want to play on and off, quit anytime, play when they have time, but the question is can dev make a living with such model?

2nd, MMO can be played like an offline RPG is the wrong direction for MMO, because you can just play offline RPG for better experience.

Offline RPG has better graphics, better story, you can play anytime you want, stop anytime you want, and generally 10x more fun than playing MMORPG solo. I've tried to play games like FFXI, GW2, SWTOR and WoW like an offline RPG before, the experience is terrible. You just kill mobs and that's it.

I'm not asking MMO to be a huge grind, but I'm asking MMO to be different from offline RPG. And I'm well aware that MMORPG is just 10x more time consuming than offline RPG. It's just the nature of MMO(I've never play ANY PC MMO that's less time consuming than single player RPG, barring mobile MMO), you can't have players play for 1 month and quit, and have empty servers. I don't believe a MMO played like single player RPG can function properly, until a title successfully keep players around by offering single player experience.

Personally, I think "being time consuming" and "can't be played like single player game" is just the nature of MMO. If I don't have time, I won't touch MMORPG at all, I'd stay far, far away from any of them. I find some recent MMO that tried to be less time consuming ended up having worse playing experience than single player RPG. I don't really understand the reason behind wanting a MMORPG to be playable like a single player game, and still insist not to play single player game instead.

[bungiefanNA]

I do like being able to play with other people, but cutting down the grind so that finding the other people doesn't take forever is what I appreciate. I meant I like it being on the level of being able to jump in like a single-player game and actually make progress, rather than logging in and not actually being able to participate in the event I had wanted until 3-4 hours have passed because of waiting for people to travel and waiting for people that fill the roles to respond to tells, like it was before Abyssea. It's nice having something I can play for 1-2 hours at a time and still make noticable progress. Not having to go without sleep to get something done is great. The addictions I saw were because you had to play for long periods for meaningful progress, and the changes now are a good step away from that, though job points are a step backward with how they are implemented.

[predatory]

I do like being able to play with other people, but cutting down the grind so that finding the other people doesn't take forever is what I appreciate. I meant I like it being on the level of being able to jump in like a single-player game and actually make progress, rather than logging in and not actually being able to participate in the event I had wanted until 3-4 hours have passed because of waiting for people to travel and waiting for people that fill the roles to respond to tells, like it was before Abyssea. It's nice having something I can play for 1-2 hours at a time and still make noticable progress. Not having to go without sleep to get something done is great. The addictions I saw were because you had to play for long periods for meaningful progress, and the changes now are a good step away from that, though job points are a step backward with how they are implemented.

What about doing things you do have time to If they take away everything that takes time to do, or time to set up for people who don't allow themselves time to play, (yes I did say allow yourself time to play, because people make their own choices about what to do with their time), there will be nothing to do for those of us who genuinely enjoy playing the game. If you're of the mindset that everything has to be doable quickly, then you've missed the point of playing an mmo. these are games you Can't win, they're designed for long term enjoyment, and if you don't like playing the game enough to mak time to do things, then you should find a new game or genre of game to play. Maybe minecraft or FFXIV are more to your tastes?

[Puck]

What about doing things you do have time to If they take away everything that takes time to do, or time to set up for people who don't allow themselves time to play, (yes I did say allow yourself time to play, because people make their own choices about what to do with their time), there will be nothing to do for those of us who genuinely enjoy playing the game. If you're of the mindset that everything has to be doable quickly, then you've missed the point of playing an mmo. these are games you Can't win, they're designed for long term enjoyment, and if you don't like playing the game enough to mak time to do things, then you should find a new game or genre of game to play. Maybe minecraft or FFXIV are more to your tastes?You realize you sound like a total dick, right?

And obviously you haven't spent much time with those two games you invoked intending to insult your fellow FFXI subscriber (one of the few people keeping this game alive so you can play it, remember). Minecraft and FFXIV are also games you can't win, and there's veritable SHITLOADS of content that anyone can play 24 hours a day.

There's no difference in terms of commitment, and playing those games doesn't make you any "less of a gamer" than playing FFXI. The fact that FFXI REQUIRES more grindy content makes it in no way better. There will NEVER be a dearth of content in this game. But the amount of content that absolutely CANNOT be accomplished in a few hours is unacceptable by today's standards. The average age of gamers keeps going up. Most of us have jobs, families of our own with kids, etc.. We can't sit around all day waiting to get a group just to make a small bit of progress.

How does making the game more convenient for everybody detract from your "genuine enjoyment" of the game? Do you derive pleasure from endless grinds, roadblocks, and content that requires large, restrictive groups? FFXI can't do that anymore with the few players left. Not that all that garbage was ever enjoyable in the first place.

If FFXI is going to survive, it won't be through long-term grinds. People NEED to feel like they've accomplished something in the few hours they have to play. If they don't, they'll quit, and move on to a game that doesn't waste their time. And when enough of them quit, down goes the ship. Make no mistake, FFXI isn't guaranteed to live forever, especially with Square-Enix's streak of bad business decisions. FFXI has been heading in the right direction thanks to Matsui, and the last thing we need is to fall back into a Tanaka-style sadomasochistic relationship between the players and the devs.

[Mefuki]

If they take away everything that takes time to do, or time to set up for people who don't allow themselves time to play, (yes I did say allow yourself time to play, because people make their own choices about what to do with their time), there will be nothing to do for those of us who genuinely enjoy playing the game.

Some of us really do enjoy playing this game. I enjoy playing FFXI, it's game that gives me a regularly updated, large scale, lore laced world with a battle and customization system that I haven't been able to find elsewhere, especially within the MMO market. But that's just it, I enjoy playing the game, not waiting around for 2 hours+ before I can start getting to the playing part.


If you're of the mindset that everything has to be doable quickly, then you've missed the point of playing an mmo.

I hope you're not falling into the trap of thinking that people who want to actually work toward long term goals the moment they log in are the same people who want ultimate weapons showing up in their delivery boxes. Desiring to do content is a far cry from wanting things handed to you. I want gradual progression towards my in game goals. Let it take 10x as long as someone with connections, etc if it has to, like when I farmed my reforged gear via farming sparks and gil (read: points) or when I spent two months doing Dynamis everyday last year to get enough gil for my HMP.

It's not that people are unwilling to put effort into playing, it's that they actually want to play. Let me give an example: Can't say what others did but due to time restrains and connections (or lack-there-of), I had to PUG all of my Voidwatch. I, regretfully, made some sacrifices in RL to get those silly quests done. Why? Because it took 2+ hours before we could even get to the fighting (read: playing), especially when it came to doing any of the VWNM's that wasn't Qilin. Why is logging in and immediately getting to play and working toward goals considered a bad thing? Why should it take so much time to start playing?

[predatory]

You realize you sound like a total dick, right?

And obviously you haven't spent much time with those two games you invoked intending to insult your fellow FFXI subscriber (one of the few people keeping this game alive so you can play it, remember). Minecraft and FFXIV are also games you can't win, and there's veritable SHITLOADS of content that anyone can play 24 hours a day.

There's no difference in terms of commitment, and playing those games doesn't make you any "less of a gamer" than playing FFXI. The fact that FFXI REQUIRES more grindy content makes it in no way better. There will NEVER be a dearth of content in this game. But the amount of content that absolutely CANNOT be accomplished in a few hours is unacceptable by today's standards. The average age of gamers keeps going up. Most of us have jobs, families of our own with kids, etc.. We can't sit around all day waiting to get a group just to make a small bit of progress.

How does making the game more convenient for everybody detract from your "genuine enjoyment" of the game? Do you derive pleasure from endless grinds, roadblocks, and content that requires large, restrictive groups? FFXI can't do that anymore with the few players left. Not that all that garbage was ever enjoyable in the first place.

If FFXI is going to survive, it won't be through long-term grinds. People NEED to feel like they've accomplished something in the few hours they have to play. If they don't, they'll quit, and move on to a game that doesn't waste their time. And when enough of them quit, down goes the ship. Make no mistake, FFXI isn't guaranteed to live forever, especially with Square-Enix's streak of bad business decisions. FFXI has been heading in the right direction thanks to Matsui, and the last thing we need is to fall back into a Tanaka-style sadomasochistic relationship between the players and the devs.

Games do not stand the test of time if everything can be done in minutes. Period end of story. WoW is still alive, but hemorraging people after all the years it's been around, so is FFXI. The rest of the MMOs I can think of go f2p in a couple of years. So from what I can see the games that take awhile to get things going, last far longer than those that offer instant gratification.

Oh and I don't sound like a dick, I am one. I've watched the player base fall off more and more over the years as the game became easier and less time consuming. I'm 50 years old, work, and am a single dad, yet I still find time to do what I want in game, so that shit doesn't wash with me. Quit QQing and f**king up this game so much, because believe or not when all the diehards get fed up and go, the game will die, because who will be left to help out and teach people the game? Surely not someone who doesn't have time to devote to it, and only wants to get their own stuff done.

[Ravenmore]

Sorry can not agree with WoW doing bad and blaming it on it's progression model. For a game of it's age to still have subs in the muti millions is a testament to how well blizz has ran their ship, love it or hate it respect must be paid. It is close to the same age as FFXI and it is based on the most overly used genre in gaming, the fantasy setting. People may not have grown tied of the game but the setting it self as many people's taste in books and movies change so to do their taste in game genre change and that has more of a effect on subs then anything else.

Fact is blizz could use the exact same model as WoW, reskin it with a Starcraft setting call it the "Galaxy of Starcraft" and bam they are right back to over 10 mil subs. The only reason they haven't is currently there is no reason to bust out a trump card when they are still making money hand over fist on WoW and no real computation in sub based MMOs. Not too mention unlike SE they learn from other companies failures and took away the lessons of EQ/EQ2 and FF11/14. They updated the graphics engine along with the AI not wasting time on building a whole another game(or in SE's case 2) when the first game was still turning a decent profit.

As for the diehards simple 20 min fix by SE and the game is still enjoyable by reducing the difficulty, though not that it really matters the same basic tactics have been used over and over to fell every NM since the start of the game. Se does keep track on how fast people are clearing content and how long it takes for the first group to finish new content or kill new NMs/battle fields what not so the diehard no lifers leaving SE would see content is not getting cleared and adjust it down something they have been getting better at.

[Puck]

I never thought one day I'd be defending WoW, but yes, Ravenmore is correct in asserting that Blizzard knew then, and knows now, how to keep their subs in the millions and that's nothing to scoff at. They'd NEVER had gotten so many subscribers, or still be sitting at such insane membership after all these years, if they followed FFXI's model of "wait several hours to play, because that's hardcore." No, what WoW did and still does better is letting people jump in and accomplish something whenever they want. That's what playing games is all about: turn on, play, feel rewarded for the time you spent. Not sitting with your thumb up your ass in Jeuno waiting for the ideal group to assemble.

You're completely in the wrong if you think FFXI's numbers are dropping due to content getting "too easy." The problem has ALWAYS been that endgame content is inaccessible to too many people. Too many jobs are locked out entirely, and for the few that are accepted the expectations are often too high. Most people don't even get to play the jobs they love the most, they're forced to level something they're not crazy about just to make progress.

And even if you happen to play one of the handful of acceptable jobs, you STILL have to wait. Nobody wants to wait to play, that can't be said enough.

(edit: The restrictive requirements for groups still is, and always has been, a major roadblock to actually enjoying this game, and one of the major reasons people quit. It makes many players feel as if the time spent playing jobs they actually enjoy is ultimately time wasted. This should never be the case. ANY time spent must be rewarded in some way. Any time you put in effort, your effort should pay off.)

But that's just it, I enjoy playing the game, not waiting around for 2 hours+ before I can start getting to the playing part.

It's not that people are unwilling to put effort into playing, it's that they actually want to play.See, Mefuki hit that big-ass nail right on the head. That's the real reason people are quitting now, and it's the same reason they've been quitting for the last decade.

[Mefuki]

And that's why I think RoE, Trusts and, if given some more attention, rewards and virtually endless "content" in the form of Mon V Mon, Monstrosity are all good indicators of a positive future for FFXI. Matsui and his crew seem to be trying various ways to get people to actually play the game and make progress the moment they log in.

RoE is an excellent example of this clear, progressive, effort-reward concept I'm talking about.

Trust magic told us, "Hey, don't just wait around for EXP parties or for help with that old mission that is almost certainly not going to come. Get to playing!" Though admittedly, SE dropped the ball a little here by not making it possible to party up with other people and your trusts at the same time but that's going to be fixed in the near future I hear and when that happens Trusts will then also say to us, "And if you happen to run into someone who's doing the same thing as you or a friend who wants to just jump in on a mission with you, team up without feeling like you're sacrificing anything."

Monstrosity's instinct and subspecies acquisition system is currently nothing but a progressive, successive, "small goals to big goal, small rewards to big reward" oriented system. I was able to log in and immediately begin working on goals, saying to myself, "I'm going to unlock that Ruszor eventually but I'm also going to unlock some other interesting instincts, cool new skills and new monsters along the way." If done right, Monstrosity can replicate the Pokemon formula relatively closely. Which utilizes the similar systems of a steady stream of small rewards(I.E. learning new moves, evolving, catching new Pokemon.) which culminates into pitting your monster/monster team against an opponent's. It's this gradual process of gaining smaller rewards leading up to a big one that helps to keep people playing.

But what does NOT help to keep people playing is having them wait around long enough for them to say to themselves, as was so common back in the day, "What the heck am I doing? I'm logged into FFXI while playing a different game, waiting for this party/alliance to form."



Now before it's brought up, I'm not suggesting that parties or alliances be abolished. Far from it. I just think forming parties should generally be more...hmm...organic. It should flow naturally while playing. So, for example, when I did the first few NM trials for my Almace, I didn't shout for help. I went and did it. When I got to the camps, there were people there doing the same thing and instead of competing with each other, because there was a positive benefit for the both of us and very little reason not to, we teamed up and covered for each other when one of us had to go AFK. Not a perfect example but I think you see what I'm getting at.

[predatory]

Looks like they might have foud the perfect solution to you guys' problem, and one people like me love, go oldschool. Woot chain bonuses http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/41464-dev1197-Job-Point-Additions-and-Adjustments

[Demonjustin]

Depending on the amount it scales and how much they increase the rate of obtainment(basically what the lowered reduction is in Skirmish) it may actually be a nice fix. My hopes aren't high since it's not a direct fix/increase however.

[Byrth]

Honestly, people are already reporting rates of up to 80CP/hr in CP parties. 2-3 merit points/hr was deemed acceptable back in the day. With chain bonuses, I imagine that most groups will be able to hit/exceed that. I have personally hit about 23k/hr soloing DNC with trusts, and about 22k/hr soloing BRD with trusts. It's possible that my CP/hr would go up if I moved to a new camp, but I'm too lazy. D:

PS. I find it sad that my bard solos almost as well as my dancer. Go go 4 songs!

[Demonjustin]

Honestly, people are already reporting rates of up to 80CP/hr in CP parties. 2-3 merit points/hr was deemed acceptable back in the day.I just want to say that Merit Points in this case shouldn't be used as an example of how this system should be.

This system so far has come out of the gate with minor bonuses which hardly rival Merit Points when it comes to how much they aid a job, I mean the most important things I've heard of are Phantom Roll Duration and BLU Mage Points. While those 2 things are nice they hold no candle next to things as important to a job as merits are, and when it comes to comparing the rate it's an unbalanced comparison anyways. For Merit Points you only ever needed 15~22 points to cap a category for a job so far as I know, the new Job Point system requires 55 per capped category so far as I know. If it's 55 right now then think about the future when they expand it to that wonderful cap of 30 they mentioned... you're looking at more than 150 points at very least. That detracts from the fact that at 22 points per capped category you're looking at 2/5th of the worth of a Merit Point, this means for the rate to be around equal when it comes to progression you're looking at needing to nearly triple the rate that you're talking about having right now just to match old school Merit Parties. Mind you that's old school parties which took much longer to get things done in, completely going against the newer rate of progression in the game of today.

I don't mean to make it sound like it's not acceptable, in fact I think it's looking a lot better, but I still don't think it's how it should be even with chains, the only thing that makes me think it'll be fine now is the fact we might get a lot of points from Skirmish & Delve which is content we're already doing anyways. If I can get these points on the side then I'm not so obsessed with how long it takes because it can be a side bonus on content I already do, but when I have to go out of my way to make any real progress on it then I have a problem with the time it's looking to take.

[Byrth]

The important part is that it will be viable for the average player to make progress on their goals in an hour or two.

Also, it's optional. If there are no job point categories worth blitzing for a job, then there's no need to blitz it. This system seems to be designed to be a long-term-grind kind of deal, and having mediocre categories without category caps keeps that alive. For instance, lets say they add Step Accuracy to DNC's categories in the future. That's not something I'd bother blitzing for Dancer, because there are almost zero cases where it would be relevant. I have so much accuracy during Steps that I have a capped Step hit rate with Flash. That said, it would take me a long time to cap it if I wasn't going to blitz it. That means that Job Points will have some small amount of value for me for a long time. They might not be worth enough for me to actively farm, but I'm going to be able to spend them and improve my jobs (maybe even my favorite jobs) forever. With merit points, having mediocre categories does not extend the life of the system because category caps exist.

I suspect SE will keep adding job point enhancements (they have planned up to 32 per job), and I strongly suspect that every job will eventually get worthwhile job points that are worth partying up and blitzing in an old merit-party style format. I also think that there is pretty much no chance I will ever cap out job points, which makes me happy in its own way.

[Mitruya]

Getting CP in Skirmish and Delve wont help the jobs that never get invited to those events.

[predatory]

Getting CP in Skirmish and Delve wont help the jobs that never get invited to those events.

If jobs aren't getting invites to events, why aren't the players making their own parties? If you're the one setting up the party you can be any job you choose

[bungiefanNA]

If jobs aren't getting invites to events, why aren't the players making their own parties? If you're the one setting up the party you can be any job you choose

I've tried for groups with being an unconventional job before, simply to have one of the people I invite find a replacement for me, the group dissolves, and reforms without me. The player base will replace undesirable jobs with ones they desire. Outside of a linkshell that is willing to try this, it's hard to get people to break the mold that has been established to work.

[Puck]

Honestly, people are already reporting rates of up to 80CP/hr in CP parties. 2-3 merit points/hr was deemed acceptable back in the day. With chain bonuses, I imagine that most groups will be able to hit/exceed that. I have personally hit about 23k/hr soloing DNC with trusts, and about 22k/hr soloing BRD with trusts. It's possible that my CP/hr would go up if I moved to a new camp, but I'm too lazy. D:

PS. I find it sad that my bard solos almost as well as my dancer. Go go 4 songs!There was a double CP event going on over the weekend, that's why CP returns were much higher than usual. The double CP from the event was acceptable, but now going back to the usual amount is a real bummer. They'll be doing one again in May, but really, CP should be doubled permanently for it to be in any way reasonable.


If jobs aren't getting invites to events, why aren't the players making their own parties? If you're the one setting up the party you can be any job you choose
Wow, can I borrow your rose-tinted glasses? It would make the community look so much more pleasant and open-minded when it comes to grouping.

[predatory]

There was a double CP event going on over the weekend, that's why CP returns were much higher than usual. The double CP from the event was acceptable, but now going back to the usual amount is a real bummer. They'll be doing one again in May, but really, CP should be doubled permanently for it to be in any way reasonable.


Wow, can I borrow your rose-tinted glasses? It would make the community look so much more pleasant and open-minded when it comes to grouping.

Except for that's exactly how I was able to get my rng to do stuff just a few months ago when rng wasn't cool, and I have a bst friend who does this when he wants to do something on bst

[Krystal]

I respect your opinion; however, the old way of experience parties wasn't as glamorous as people make it seem, if you weren't one of the best jobs you couldn't get into a party so you basically had to solo to the 75 cap, also if it wasn't for abyssea this game would have probably been dead, and buried a long time ago because of the first point I brought up, and most of the veterans would be at max level making soloing the only available option, also im not new I been around since the beginning of the game on and off but here to stay none the least, and I can tell you for a fact that the game is in the best place it has been in years the only thing it could use is a bit more creativity in the new expansion because as of right now it doesn't have anything that really sets it apart from the other expansions.

Also I know some people think my ideas are stupid, but I don't care my ideas are for SE not the players and haters are gonna hate. :D

The problem wasn't abby exactly that killed exp parties, it was the fact that they made the entrance level 30 and as if to scream at the player pop to burn jobs in abby they removed exp penalty up to level 30.

The entrance level is effectually what killed exp parties and for the record they didn't merge servers(which btw is ALWAYS a sign of a massive player pop drop and game is dying) until roughly a year after all 3 abby expansions were released. The player pop has jumped back up since seekers or auduian was released but it will never be what it was prior to abby being released. Can you figure out what this means or do I need to spell it out for ya?

Abby was the poison that was slowly killing FFXI and since at that time, they were trying to get players to join the (OLD)FFXIV, it would not shock me in the least bit if they did that was a kind of "lets kill the game but lets do it in style!" kind of idea.

Now here's another question for ya:

Why does a game company release a new expansion?

"Because they want to add more content?"

BZZZZZT! WRONG ANSWER!

"Because they like the FF fans?"

BZZZZT! WRONG AGAIN!

"Because they want to draw new and old players back to the game?"

DING,DING,DING! WHAT DO WE HAVE FOR HIM JONNY?!

so here's another question for ya:

Why would they want to draw new and old players back to the game, if the current content they had was sufficient enough to keep players interested and not leave?

Answer: It wasn't and was in fact causing most current players and even new players to the game to LEAVE.

When the (OLD)FFXIV bombed, SE KNEW they needed to maintain a steady playerbase in their one game that was their prized jewel for nearly 10 years at the time. So they created the new expansion in hopes of holding onto players and bringing new ones in and old ones back until they released "A realm reborn".

Soon after though, they realized that they had two types of player bases, the casuals and the hard cores. So, they are keeping FFXI alive to keep both player bases happy. The casuals can play FFXIV and the players who still want a challenge can stick with FFXI.

So now you(and everyone else who reads this post) know the facts.

[Demonjustin]

I've tried for groups with being an unconventional job before, simply to have one of the people I invite find a replacement for me, the group dissolves, and reforms without me. The player base will replace undesirable jobs with ones they desire. Outside of a linkshell that is willing to try this, it's hard to get people to break the mold that has been established to work.This happens because no matter who is leader the primary goal of a group is to win, if they feel a leader isn't leading them well enough to achieve that(or is being selfish enough to go on a weak job that hinders their chances) then they might just make their own party excluding that leader or at very least changing leader and then proceeding. If I made a Tojil run and went on RDM as one of the DDs I'm sure I'd have someone drop before entrance or reform on me just because I went RDM/NIN rather than RDM/BLM & formed the party around that instead.

[Puck]

This happens because no matter who is leader the primary goal of a group is to win, if they feel a leader isn't leading them well enough to achieve that(or is being selfish enough to go on a weak job that hinders their chances) then they might just make their own party excluding that leader or at very least changing leader and then proceeding. If I made a Tojil run and went on RDM as one of the DDs I'm sure I'd have someone drop before entrance or reform on me just because I went RDM/NIN rather than RDM/BLM & formed the party around that instead.BungiefanNA's not talking people wanting to play their jobs in a silly way that's inappropriate for the content. He's talking about people not wanting a majority of jobs in the game anymore regardless of gear or subs, not the few dinguses that insist on playing their jobs "their way" at the cost of everyone else in the group.

Your example doesn't really make sense since a RDM is support, not DD, so of course playing your job in a way that doesn't make use of its strengths would cause people to not want you in the group. PUP is a DD. BST is a DD. Neither is considered acceptable in the DD slot. Hell, people barely consider anything that isn't MNK or RNG an acceptable DD nowadays.

[Demonjustin]

BungiefanNA's not talking people wanting to play their jobs in a silly way that's inappropriate for the content. He's talking about people not wanting a majority of jobs in the game anymore regardless of gear or subs, not the few dinguses that insist on playing their jobs "their way" at the cost of everyone else in the group.

Your example doesn't really make sense since a RDM is support, not DD, so of course playing your job in a way that doesn't make use of its strengths would cause people to not want you in the group. PUP is a DD. BST is a DD. Neither is considered acceptable in the DD slot. Hell, people barely consider anything that isn't MNK or RNG an acceptable DD nowadays.I've DDed on RDM just fine, it's a Hybrid not a pure support job. But either way you want to take it replace it with BST, PUP, BLM, DNC, SMN, BLU, whatever makes you feel best, the story is the same either way and it's just as important.

[Ravenmore]

LOL stuff

No it didn't kill low level parties they were already dead anything under 75 and you were waiting days for for even enough low level people seeking to even think of trying to put together a party. Even then it was level sync to a couple of prime levels or you couldn't even get those few to go. People already had most of the jobs they wanted to level under the old system and were not going to put up with the old system to level new jobs. Abyssea brought back people and people enjoyed it and got to do something other then exp which hasn't been meaningful content in a long time.

The majority finally got too play real endgame for the first time getting to play the content not just grinding exp on the same 3 mob types from 1 to 75 for a few months just to get to the fun stuff. You didn't have to put up with 17 other people you didn't even like just because they were the endgame LS you had to sell your soul to just to wait in line for gear. What harmed the game was for going back to that with only getting content that focused on alliance content and extremely overpowed mobs and insanely low drop rates were no matter how well you did you where at the mercy of the rng. To add insult to that for far longer then really acceptable gear would just get left in the box since you couldn't even add what you didn't want to the party pool. So the Devs reasoning for not increasing the drp rates was that because the party as a whole got 18 chances for a piece of gear to drop the drop rates were fine even if the gear kept dropping to the same person.

Wotg did far more damage then anything SoA or abyssea could ever do and not only to FF11 but the MMO Final Fantasy brand. Taking three years to finish a expansion while diverting resources to a failed MMO is a bad sign to the player base so many people left the brand altogether. It didn't really add much endgame content that was worth doing that provided gear that was assessable to the majority of the player base. A couple of NMs and one being the only way into the fight and a half thought out BCNM that needed the effort of the whole server just to open up.

[Byrth]

There was a double CP event going on over the weekend, that's why CP returns were much higher than usual. The double CP from the event was acceptable, but now going back to the usual amount is a real bummer. They'll be doing one again in May, but really, CP should be doubled permanently for it to be in any way reasonable.

Actually, they reported it before the CP campaign started. Mobs in Woh Gates / some other Gates give something like 300 CP/kill and it doesn't scale down much in parties. Those are supposed to be our "Capacity Camps." When the chains kick in, I bet we can pull over 120k/hr there.

[Demonjustin]

Actually, they reported it before the CP campaign started. Mobs in Woh Gates / some other Gates give something like 300 CP/kill and it doesn't scale down much in parties. Those are supposed to be our "Capacity Camps." When the chains kick in, I bet we can pull over 120k/hr there.Correct me if I'm wrong but that's talking about some fairly high tier gear since when I went with a MNK friend between his high acc set & my RDM throwing Gravity II on mobs, as well as him using Sushi, he was barely able to get his acc off the floor for the Worms in Woh. I never did fight the mobs in Sih or anything like that but just from what I saw in Woh it looks like you need not only a BRD or COR but high tier gear and then Woh could be possible.

[Lambtor]

I'm sure this will get passed over by the devs, but I've been thinking that adding trueshot+ to RNG would be a really nice option for capacity points. 1 yalm per level would make a legit benefit, and would actually be worth the time to grind up.

[predatory]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's talking about some fairly high tier gear since when I went with a MNK friend between his high acc set & my RDM throwing Gravity II on mobs, as well as him using Sushi, he was barely able to get his acc off the floor for the Worms in Woh. I never did fight the mobs in Sih or anything like that but just from what I saw in Woh it looks like you need not only a BRD or COR but high tier gear and then Woh could be possible.

I think what they're shooting for with this is full party content, and if that were the case I bet with 6 people you'd do just fine, problem is everyone wants to play this as an rpg with multi-player aspects rather than an mmo

[Demonjustin]

I think what they're shooting for with this is full party content, and if that were the case I bet with 6 people you'd do just fine, problem is everyone wants to play this as an rpg with multi-player aspects rather than an mmoWell I expect it to be a party venture when you're talking about mobs that are around level 125 or so, but the problem I'm trying to bring up is the fact that since the points only go to the job you're on the parties need to be flexible. If we're required to have a COR or BRD in order to hit mobs you're already locking at least 1 slot to a specific job or 2, the DDs need high accuracy so that limits it some more, nuking is not likely to be effective if resists are common which kicks it down even more. I'm not so much looking to solo these mobs but more that I feel like if they take too much accuracy then it's going to lock up the party selection a bit, that results in soloing being the only real option for jobs like SMN or RDM who of which may not be desired in these parties.

1 DD on the accuracy floor is going to suck, but 6 DDs on the accuracy floor... they're gonna suck too.

[saevel]

Actually, they reported it before the CP campaign started. Mobs in Woh Gates / some other Gates give something like 300 CP/kill and it doesn't scale down much in parties. Those are supposed to be our "Capacity Camps." When the chains kick in, I bet we can pull over 120k/hr there.

Won't happen. The mobs there have 1050+ evasion, your 200 accuracy short for most casual players. To add fuel to the fire, BRD's and COR's have crappy JP and since you can't spend on other jobs, you won't be see any of those sorely needed accuracy buffs for melee parties. The only people I've seen killing those are manaburn parties, we've back to 2003 again.

[Demonjustin]

Won't happen. The mobs there have 1050+ evasion, your 200 accuracy short for most casual players. To add fuel to the fire, BRD's and COR's have crappy JP and since you can't spend on other jobs, you won't be see any of those sorely needed accuracy buffs for melee parties. The only people I've seen killing those are manaburn parties, we've back to 2003 again.I agree the current ones suck but BRD looks to be getting at least Minuet in the update going by the picture, it's not much but it's more than what's there now, I could see at least some use in this one. Perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic about it though.

[Byrth]

Won't happen. The mobs there have 1050+ evasion, your 200 accuracy short for most casual players. To add fuel to the fire, BRD's and COR's have crappy JP and since you can't spend on other jobs, you won't be see any of those sorely needed accuracy buffs for melee parties. The only people I've seen killing those are manaburn parties, we've back to 2003 again.

SE introduced casual-accessible 119 JSE weapons for each job and a 3-song instrument last update, which deals with the accuracy problem.

As far as the lack of useful JPs, COR actually gets pretty useful JP enhancements right now (Phantom Roll +20 seconds), and BRD is slated to get Minuet+ next update. After the next update, SE will still be able to release another 28 JP enhancements for every job. If they want to kick-start the parties, though, they should really drop about 10 JPs per job on us right now. That way every job will probably get something useful.

[saevel]

SE introduced casual-accessible 119 JSE weapons for each job and a 3-song instrument last update, which deals with the accuracy problem.

As far as the lack of useful JPs, COR actually gets pretty useful JP enhancements right now (Phantom Roll +20 seconds), and BRD is slated to get Minuet+ next update. After the next update, SE will still be able to release another 28 JP enhancements for every job. If they want to kick-start the parties, though, they should really drop about 10 JPs per job on us right now. That way every job will probably get something useful.

Umm...


The mobs there have 1050+ evasion, your 200 accuracy short for most casual players.

That was including iLevel 119 weapons and gear that are fairly easy to acquire.

On WAR with 119 Bravura and 8/8 Gaxe merits, I can put on damn near every accuracy piece I have, which destroys my x-hit, and get right above 950 accuracy before food / buffs. The vast majority of players won't have that much spare accuracy gear laying around. The base accuracy I see with common sets is about 815~850 which is why I said they are about 200 acc short.

Doing those monsters is a huge waste of time for anyone not manaburning them. I can go kill DC (in full iLevel 119) monsters on WAR and get ~150 JP per kill with only trust NPCs, never need to rest and never need external buffs from specific jobs. They die faster and give far better JP/hour then falling for SE's time trap. If the monsters had more realistic stats then I could see them being somewhat useful, but as it stands going melee burn on level 126 monsters is stupid. And 3 song BRD changes absolutely nothing because you won't be getting that BRD in the first place, he's out soloing or with the BLM's cause it's better JP.

[Krystal]

No it didn't kill low level parties they were already dead anything under 75 and you were waiting days for for even enough low level people seeking to even think of trying to put together a party. Even then it was level sync to a couple of prime levels or you couldn't even get those few to go. People already had most of the jobs they wanted to level under the old system and were not going to put up with the old system to level new jobs. Abyssea brought back people and people enjoyed it and got to do something other then exp which hasn't been meaningful content in a long time.

The majority finally got too play real endgame for the first time getting to play the content not just grinding exp on the same 3 mob types from 1 to 75 for a few months just to get to the fun stuff. You didn't have to put up with 17 other people you didn't even like just because they were the endgame LS you had to sell your soul to just to wait in line for gear. What harmed the game was for going back to that with only getting content that focused on alliance content and extremely overpowed mobs and insanely low drop rates were no matter how well you did you where at the mercy of the rng. To add insult to that for far longer then really acceptable gear would just get left in the box since you couldn't even add what you didn't want to the party pool. So the Devs reasoning for not increasing the drp rates was that because the party as a whole got 18 chances for a piece of gear to drop the drop rates were fine even if the gear kept dropping to the same person.

Wotg did far more damage then anything SoA or abyssea could ever do and not only to FF11 but the MMO Final Fantasy brand. Taking three years to finish a expansion while diverting resources to a failed MMO is a bad sign to the player base so many people left the brand altogether. It didn't really add much endgame content that was worth doing that provided gear that was assessable to the majority of the player base. A couple of NMs and one being the only way into the fight and a half thought out BCNM that needed the effort of the whole server just to open up.
http://mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw1012_46183_-_animated_did_not_read_lol_gif_image_macro_lol_didnt_read_meme_rainbow_dash_tldr.gif

[Byrth]

On WAR with 119 Bravura and 8/8 Gaxe merits, I can put on damn near every accuracy piece I have, which destroys my x-hit, and get right above 950 accuracy before food / buffs. The vast majority of players won't have that much spare accuracy gear laying around. The base accuracy I see with common sets is about 815~850 which is why I said they are about 200 acc short.

Doing those monsters is a huge waste of time for anyone not manaburning them. I can go kill DC (in full iLevel 119) monsters on WAR and get ~150 JP per kill with only trust NPCs, never need to rest and never need external buffs from specific jobs. They die faster and give far better JP/hour then falling for SE's time trap. If the monsters had more realistic stats then I could see them being somewhat useful, but as it stands going melee burn on level 126 monsters is stupid. And 3 song BRD changes absolutely nothing because you won't be getting that BRD in the first place, he's out soloing or with the BLM's cause it's better JP.

Similarly, I have 954 Acc on DNC in my Acc TP set, which means I'd have 1025 Acc with sushi. Madrigal/Hunter's Roll and I'm good. I could easily squeeze another 30-40 Acc out of my gear without totally destroying my DPS (Hurchlan Sash, Mars' Ring, Toetapper Mantle, Ej Necklace), which puts me in better shape than 1H jobs were in at 75 against merit mobs.

Also, unless you get 80k CP/hr, they don't give better JP/hr than partying. I topped out around 23k CP/hr soloing on BRD, but if I could get them faster in a party then I'd do that. I also kind of miss merit-party pulling.

[saevel]

Similarly, I have 954 Acc on DNC in my Acc TP set, which means I'd have 1025 Acc with sushi. Madrigal/Hunter's Roll and I'm good. I could easily squeeze another 30-40 Acc out of my gear without totally destroying my DPS (Hurchlan Sash, Mars' Ring, Toetapper Mantle, Ej Necklace), which puts me in better shape than 1H jobs were in at 75 against merit mobs.

Also, unless you get 80k CP/hr, they don't give better JP/hr than partying. I topped out around 23k CP/hr soloing on BRD, but if I could get them faster in a party then I'd do that. I also kind of miss merit-party pulling.

I easy go over one JP per hour, about one every 30~45m or so depending on how stupid the trust support NPCs want to be, and that's solo on WAR. No way in hell your getting 80KCP/hr against level 126 mobs in a melee burn with ~98%of the player population. This is just like one of those "kill IT++ or chain kill VT" type situations we faced a decade ago where we found that killing weaker monsters at a faster rate yielded more XP/hr then trying to fight the harder ones. And like I said, the average player has about 812~850 accuracy with a 119 weapon and basic delve / skirmish gear. Sushi, 1 Madrigal and Hunters won't have them breaking ~50% hit rate.

[Damane]

I easy go over one JP per hour, about one every 30~45m or so depending on how stupid the trust support NPCs want to be, and that's solo on WAR. No way in hell your getting 80KCP/hr against level 126 mobs in a melee burn with ~98%of the player population. This is just like one of those "kill IT++ or chain kill VT" type situations we faced a decade ago where we found that killing weaker monsters at a faster rate yielded more XP/hr then trying to fight the harder ones. And like I said, the average player has about 812~850 accuracy with a 119 weapon and basic delve / skirmish gear. Sushi, 1 Madrigal and Hunters won't have them breaking ~50% hit rate.

thats because its the average player, we sometimes hit woh gates as LS members when going for merits (for mission battles). Usually the setup involved BRD 3xDD and either COR +1x WHM (it really depends on the fight and we go for so we dont waste changing jobs). 60k CP per hour isnt unfeasable. But again thats with LS members and sometimes strange setups np, i wouldnt dare going there with PUGs and wasting my time.

[predatory]

Well I expect it to be a party venture when you're talking about mobs that are around level 125 or so, but the problem I'm trying to bring up is the fact that since the points only go to the job you're on the parties need to be flexible. If we're required to have a COR or BRD in order to hit mobs you're already locking at least 1 slot to a specific job or 2, the DDs need high accuracy so that limits it some more, nuking is not likely to be effective if resists are common which kicks it down even more. I'm not so much looking to solo these mobs but more that I feel like if they take too much accuracy then it's going to lock up the party selection a bit, that results in soloing being the only real option for jobs like SMN or RDM who of which may not be desired in these parties.

1 DD on the accuracy floor is going to suck, but 6 DDs on the accuracy floor... they're gonna suck too.

And that's one of the big problems with this whole clusterfuck expansion, they overpowered the mobs, then tried to make up for it with a vertical gear progression, rather than toning down the mobs to what would be reasonable for party content. I think I brought that point up before I took my break

[Damane]

And that's one of the big problems with this whole clusterfuck expansion, they overpowered the mobs, then tried to make up for it with a vertical gear progression, rather than toning down the mobs to what would be reasonable for party content. I think I brought that point up before I took my break


the mobs are really piss easy for a full COMPETENT party in woh and doh gates, its the people playing that watered down in their brain sadly.

[predatory]

the mobs are really piss easy for a full COMPETENT party in woh and doh gates, its the people playing that watered down in their brain sadly.

This is 2014 not 2004, there aren't too many of us left that actually understand party dynamics, the ins and outs of their various jobs, hell or even how to it a skill chain or magic burst one. With everything being so solo friendly the game is starting to feel like "Idiocracy"so yeah my statement stands

[Damane]

This is 2014 not 2004, there aren't too many of us left that actually understand party dynamics, the ins and outs of their various jobs, hell or even how to it a skill chain or magic burst one. With everything being so solo friendly the game is starting to feel like "Idiocracy"so yeah my statement stands

you dont need any SC or MB to kill those mobs... all you need is competent people that know when to use which type of gearsets (which hopefully they have more then 1 available). But allas there still exist players that apearantly only use 1 gearset for everything, which is mindblowing.

[predatory]

you dont need any SC or MB to kill those mobs... all you need is competent people that know when to use which type of gearsets (which hopefully they have more then 1 available). But allas there still exist players that apearantly only use 1 gearset for everything, which is mindblowing.

You do know you're agreeing with me right? I was talking about the competence of the player base now compared to then, mb was just an example

[saevel]

You do know you're agreeing with me right? I was talking about the competence of the player base now compared to then, mb was just an example

It's not about competence, its' just raw stats. No amount of "player skill" will compensate for the insane defense / evasion that level 126 monsters have. We're back to 2004 era of manaburns, or 2005/2006 era "wait around while we find a BRD" of XP parties. What makes it worse is that at least merits could be spent universally so Bob always going on BRD or WHM wasn't such a bad thing, but now that they are job specific Bob has a vested interest to stay away from BRD / WHM in favor of the job's he really wants to power up. The defensive stats of all trash monsters in Doh / Woh gates needs to be brought down by about 10~15% in order for them to be remotely viable. Otherwise we're back to Bob bringing out his trust NPC's and getting JP for the jobs he really wants vs wasting his time helping Fred, Larry and Sue get sub optimal JP in a giant whiff fest.

[Damane]

It's not about competence, its' just raw stats. No amount of "player skill" will compensate for the insane defense / evasion that level 126 monsters have. We're back to 2004 era of manaburns, or 2005/2006 era "wait around while we find a BRD" of XP parties. What makes it worse is that at least merits could be spent universally so Bob always going on BRD or WHM wasn't such a bad thing, but now that they are job specific Bob has a vested interest to stay away from BRD / WHM in favor of the job's he really wants to power up. The defensive stats of all trash monsters in Doh / Woh gates needs to be brought down by about 10~15% in order for them to be remotely viable. Otherwise we're back to Bob bringing out his trust NPC's and getting JP for the jobs he really wants vs wasting his time helping Fred, Larry and Sue get sub optimal JP in a giant whiff fest.

the mobs arent any difficult then in the lvl 75 era colibri burn, you needed a bard there too to do any decent exp, there is no difference. the only difference is the insane amount of m.eva they have. Do a proper merit pt with brd healer 3 melees and insert 6. job (another melee or buffer) and you will do fine, assuming the players dont suck. the problem is really that most players really just SUCK REALLY HARD

[saevel]

the mobs arent any difficult then in the lvl 75 era colibri burn, you needed a bard there too to do any decent exp, there is no difference. the only difference is the insane amount of m.eva they have. Do a proper merit pt with brd healer 3 melees and insert 6. job (another melee or buffer) and you will do fine, assuming the players dont suck. the problem is really that most players really just SUCK REALLY HARD

You've never fought them apparently... they have 1000 defense and over 1050 evasion. That puts them 200 evasion over what 98~99% of the player base is capable of reaching, 2 accuracy is 1% hit rate so we're talking -100% hit rate from neutral of 75%, or 25% under then 20% floor. That's with 850 accuracy from /checkparam which is what most players will be having with iLevel 119 gear. Bream sushi is about 75 accuracy which leaves you 125 short. Hunters is 30~50 depending if they get high, lucky or perfect. Blade Madrigal is +45 with 5/5 merits and +4 instrument, +48 with a +5 instrument. Sword Madrigal is 30 for +4 instrument, +33 for +5 instrument. A NQ BRD isn't enough not even with 3 songs, you need a 99 Dura BRD or dual BRD's / COR to get enough songs/ rolls for decent kill speed. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of HP those level 126 monsters have. You won't have high pDiff and your DPS output is going to be similiar to what you see on VD AA's.

Or you can just go solo DC mobs for 150JP each and infinite chain them which ends up being faster and more efficient. You will be capping accuracy and getting a high pDiff before buffs. You can use meat for a big attack boost along with free march's from NPC's and get to slaughtering mobs that only have ~10K HP.

Player "skill" never enters into the equation, it's just raw numbers and SE plugged in values that were too high to be reasonable. These monsters have VD AA stats higher even then Delve MB's.

[Damane]

You've never fought them apparently... they have 1000 defense and over 1050 evasion. That puts them 200 evasion over what 98~99% of the player base is capable of reaching, 2 accuracy is 1% hit rate so we're talking -100% hit rate from neutral of 75%, or 25% under then 20% floor. That's with 850 accuracy from /checkparam which is what most players will be having with iLevel 119 gear. Bream sushi is about 75 accuracy which leaves you 125 short. Hunters is 30~50 depending if they get high, lucky or perfect. Blade Madrigal is +45 with 5/5 merits and +4 instrument, +48 with a +5 instrument. Sword Madrigal is 30 for +4 instrument, +33 for +5 instrument. A NQ BRD isn't enough not even with 3 songs, you need a 99 Dura BRD or dual BRD's / COR to get enough songs/ rolls for decent kill speed. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of HP those level 126 monsters have. You won't have high pDiff and your DPS output is going to be similiar to what you see on VD AA's.

Or you can just go solo DC mobs for 150JP each and infinite chain them which ends up being faster and more efficient. You will be capping accuracy and getting a high pDiff before buffs. You can use meat for a big attack boost along with free march's from NPC's and get to slaughtering mobs that only have ~10K HP.

Player "skill" never enters into the equation, it's just raw numbers and SE plugged in values that were too high to be reasonable. These monsters have VD AA stats higher even then Delve MB's.

I did go fight them several times with a 6 man pt, last time consistent of: WAR (me) SAM MNK BRD SMN WHM, since we were doing stellar fulcrum KI hardmode battles and needed to reget merit points. A friend of mine did parse results: i had 95% accuracy, monk had 93% accuracy and sam had 89% accuracy and mobs died in a matter of 20 sec. Previously to that we were there doing those mobs as SCH (me) MNK NIN THF BRD COR, again melees parsing around ~95% accuracy according to my friends parse and mobs were again dieing in a matter of seconds.

How about YOU DO a proper setup and start sucking less on those mobs? They specificly stated that those mobs were designed with a full PT in mind

I consider "Player skill" to be the ability: to gear properly, use gear properly at proper situations and gear properly depending on buffs.

if you werent geared and setup properly in the lvl 75 ear your colibri burn would have sucked too.

If you have 850 acc you arent useing a full accuracy/haste build, because a melee can reach 900+ accuracy with check param (my war has around 910 accuracy and its NOT a perfect build missing 3-4 slots that can be uped).

[Demonjustin]

He did say that the average player has with 119 gear, not everyone hit that high. Admittedly though, I think it's best not everyone hit that high, in a way they're setting this up to be like AAs in a way. Everyone can basically fight mobs in Outer Ra'Kaznar, those are 'Normal', then you have mobs in Sih Gates which are 'Hard', and then you have mobs in Woh Gates which are 'Very Hard'. The whole reason I brought up this talk at all when Byrth mentioned it is because if the only way to get so many CPs so quickly is to do that 1 area then it means only a handful of people can get points at a decent rate now, you're talking trying really hard just to try to tie Merit Points in speed of obtainment. If fighting easier mobs and/or the chains make it reasonable everywhere while those zones in proper gear are better/the best zones, then that's the best actual setup in my opinion. The last question that comes to mind is why is it that between a zone with 110ish mobs and 113ish mobs I find a cave with 126ish mobs? It's as out of place it seems as the level 80s mixed in with my level 5s in Outer Hotoro.

[saevel]

He did say that the average player has with 119 gear, not everyone hit that high.

I said early, which he ignored, that my WAR with bravura and full accuracy set could get 950 acc if I'm willing to destroy my x-hit. I could push it higher then ~970 if I'm willing to really sacrifice lots of multi-attack. Even at that level I'd still need accuracy buffs to hit 90%+ so we're talking BRD + COR type setups. The combined effect is a highly restrictive environment that's not reasonable for the vast majority of your player base, which are casuals. This is the 99 version of merits not f*cking Kings or "End Game" stuff. This should be casual level content, stuff average players can do via /shout with PUG's full of semi-horrible players. Colibri at 75 were way f*cking easier, you didn't actually need a BRD at all. The BRD's biggest job wasn't buffing but pulling the mobs to ensure constant chain's. I remember doing chain 200+ as RDM/NIN (not melee) who would pull, Dia III the mob, Haste on melee and Refresh the WHM. So definitely didn't require two support people.