Will we get Worms in Monstrosity and if so how will they move!

[Trumpy]

Can you imagine a worm just sliding around? i am kinda hoping for a 0 tp move that called burrow and we can move then and we burrow again to pop back out! What do you guys think? or like a move that moves us in the general direction we are facing a random distance and position?

[Mefuki]

I put forward a possible solution in a post I made about giving Onyx Antlions the same thing:

"Understandable that we can't go under the map and move around but what if SE gave them an ability that was called "Burrow". When you use it the burrow/unburrow animation goes off but what it really does is give you a variation of Gestation that lets you use Ambush while in this "Burrowed" mode." After using Ambush, the "Burrow" effect would wear off.

For worms, it might need some tweaking. Worms don't have any moves they use while burrowed so they could just use this "Gestation/burrow" mode to get around (We know that Worms sliding around to move is possible thanks to a glitch that happened once many years ago) while making the animation for unburrowing go off when the burrow effect is removed/wears off. However, if SE really wanted to add in a strategic element to this, they could take my suggestion for Onyx Antlion's Ambush and have some kind of damage bonus or other effect apply to Tremors or Earth based magic used by the worms while underground. I'd also assume that only very specific things could be done while burrowed. Onyx Antlions can only use Ambush and "Unburrow", Worms can only use Tremors/offensive Earth magic or "Unburrow", etc.

Obviously, it might be a little overpowered to essentially be able to force yourself "out of play" whenever you want, so I imagine there would be a recast time and/or limited duration on burrowing. There can be other restrictions or counters to this as well, like Orobon's Seismic Tail or other TP moves being able to hit you as well as becoming especially powerful when hit by their AoE while "underground", countering what might be considered an unbeatable strategy. ...Sorry, got off track onto battle dynamics.



The thing I want SE to keep in mind is if there seems to be something that isn't possible from a technical standpoint for Monstrosity, just bend the rules a little if you have to. The "burrowing" I'm proposing is not really burrowing but it has the same effect on battle and is a good replication of what monsters do.

*Amphipteres or Yovra fly far too high for us to have access to that ability? Then give them the flight mechanic that the Wyms and Arimaspi have.

*Rafflesia's Soothing Aroma (AoE Charm, that is, charming more than one target) can't be done due to system limitations? Change it's effects for us to: Charms casters target but also AoE large ATK Down + Amnesia + Mute with a large ATK Boost for the user commensurate with the number of targets hit.

*We can't have the exact same Draw In HNMs do? Give us a very low cost, high range, reverse knockback TP move.

*What about Kick Out, Tail Lash, Spike Flail, etc? Take the directional mechanic for cone based moves (which we already know is possible in Monstrosity) or BLU breath spells (e.i. you can face a group of mobs and hit all of them or you can turn around and just hit your target) and just reverse the direction.

I could go on but point being: These technical limitations don't have to stop SE from giving us certain monsters or complex battle dynamics.

[Infidi]

The worm costume you can use has you go underground( though I'm sure it's a visual effect not under like an actual worm) and pop back up a few seconds later to move, maybe something like that ?

[Blah]

Or just make those aby worms available in monstrosity maybe? Dang tho I don't think ANY aby monsters are available in monstrosity...yet

[Mirage]

IWe know that Worms sliding around to move is possible thanks to a glitch that happened once many years ago
Not really the glitch that let us know it was possible. Every mob in the game can move, even trees that are mobs (short for mobile object, really) can move, the server just doesn't do it because it isn't told to do it. Trees that are part of the terrain can't of course. Likewise, chests can be made to move, confluxes can be made to move, even if they don't have a specific movement animation. You just need to set their movement speed to more than 0, and make a script that tells them when and where to move. It's not exactly rocket surgery. From the server's point of view, an NPC that doesn't walk around is the exact same as an abyssea conflux, just that the text you get in your chat log is different.

[Mefuki]

Post #5

I see. Excellent. So, it's easier then I thought to give us worms. Just set worm movement speed to standard speed while under the effects of "Burrow".

[Karbuncle]

http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Monstrosity_Items_Now_Supported!

Everything using the BLU Icon is in there but not supported, I.E not going to happen yet and no Instincts made for them yet. Worms fall under "There but not useable"

[Demonjustin]

Dang tho I don't think ANY aby monsters are available in monstrosity...yetWell, we have Abyssobugards, which are normal mobs in Aby Misar. That's before counting the ZBs we have which are Sibilus(Aby Kon ZB), Vermillion Wamoura(Aby Att ZB), Ogrebon(Aby Mis ZB), Limascabra(Aby Gra ZB), Gagana(Aby Alt ZB), and Arundimite(Aby Uleg ZB). This also ignores non-ZB NMs which originally came from Abyssea such as Orthrus, Elsmoth, and so on. The only unique Abyssea Worms I know of is Mikey's Purple variant. The White ones might be special too, I'm not sure, but I know large White Worms are found in Gustav now days, I assumed there were some old ones I just never paid any attention to in like Assaults or something.

[Demonjustin]

http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Monstrosity_Items_Now_Supported!

Everything using the BLU Icon is in there but not supported, I.E not going to happen yet and no Instincts made for them yet. Worms fall under "There but not useable"What's interesting about that, originally I remember someone saying normal worms wouldn't be added in Monstrosity, or at least that it wasn't found, and now that list has it in there but no Instincts are listed as of yet. I wonder if SE found a way to implement them and changed their plans?

[Karbuncle]

Well, we have Abyssobugards, which are normal mobs in Aby Misar. That's before counting the ZBs we have which are Sibilus(Aby Kon ZB), Vermillion Wamoura(Aby Att ZB), Ogrebon(Aby Mis ZB), Limascabra(Aby Gra ZB), Gagana(Aby Alt ZB), and Arundimite(Aby Uleg ZB). This also ignores non-ZB NMs which originally came from Abyssea such as Orthrus, Elsmoth, and so on. The only unique Abyssea Worms I know of is Mikey's Purple variant. The White ones might be special too, I'm not sure, but I know large White Worms are found in Gustav now days, I assumed there were some old ones I just never paid any attention to in like Assaults or something.

Theres white/gray ones in Uleguerand, and i think Phantom Worm is white as well.

[Trumpy]

I completely meant to say when they are fighting that worms cannot use burrow in my first post. I posted faster than me brain could think!

[Blah]

Aha cool so at least aby monsters are a part of it, thought they'd push them off until later like beastmen.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Becoming a worm would sure be neat, but implementing these monsters for monstrosity would be difficult due to the fact that they have very special movement properties, just as you all have taken note of. The development team will be adding a lot of different monster families moving forward, however, and we’ll be sure to share updates on what’s to come.

[Mefuki]

As you read from the first page of this discussion, there is almost no monster species, TP move or ability that couldn't be added by tweaking effects to closely simulate what monsters do. To recap on a possible solution to worm movement:

*Create a job ability or TP move called "Burrow". This ability would likely have a recast to prevent abuse.

*This would make the user do their burrowing animation but would actually apply a form of Gestation that would only allow for specific actions. This effect would likely have a duration to prevent abuse.

*During the effects of "Burrow", movement speed would be set to standard speed, allowing movement like any other monster. No newly animated walk cycles necessary because you'd be invisible to everyone and therefore odd looking walk cycles wouldn't matter from an onlookers point of view. Simply allowing Worms to slide around is sufficient.

*When the effects of "Burrow" wear off or are removed, the monster's unburrowing animation would activate. This system would look just like the real thing and serve almost the same function but without the concerns about mapping objects below each map.

*Much like the Fighting Stance abilities, this same "Burrow" ability could be applied to other monsters such as Onyx Antlions or even Phuabo to match their burrowing ability.


**Bonus: There can even be combat elements to this ability. There can be an allowance made for the use of very specified TP moves or spells while under its effects. For example, Worms could be allowed to use the Tremors TP move while under the effects of Burrow and a damage bonus could be applied to it to encourage players to use that skill. Additionally, certain TP moves, like the TP move Seismic Tail, could be given a damage bonus and an additional effect of removing the Burrow effect when hitting an opponent that is under the effects of Burrow.



This is a possible solution to the Worm problem. He probably already knows this but, Camate, please remind Iwagami that there are work around solutions to all of these monster mechanics. From AoE Charm TP moves to Colibri mimicking traits, there's a way to give us similar effects while remaining within technical limitations.

[Edyth]

Worms aren't worth the effort.

Here are several monster families/forms they have skipped that WOULD be worth the effort:
Yztargs
Belladonnas (Morta)
Snapweeds
Twitherym
Chapulis
Craklaws
Pteraketos (Bismarck)
Ovim (rams)
Lucerewe (sheep)
Tulfaires
Leafkin
Kulox (Apian Beasts, I believe)
Botuli
Harpeia
And most of all....
The Naakual families! Sadly, out of the things on my list, only the Naakual families don't have placeholders in Monstrosity menus according to DAT miners.

[Mefuki]

Well, this issue with the Worms are sort of a poster boy of a greater problem. Direction specific moves like Tail Lash, Charming moves of any sort, any Max HP Down move, any Curse move, any Death and Doom move, any Severe Damage move like Blink of Peril, any Aura move including directional ones like Grim Glower, NIN SP1, colibri mimicking, etc: a lot of the things that make playing and fighting these monster interesting or relatively complex in the first place are missing. SE seems to be leaving out a fair amount of combat mechanics and I want them to start giving us the monsters we actually fight, not neutered, bare-bones versions of them. That way, when SE DOES release the monsters you mentioned, we're actually getting those monsters.

As it stands now, even if we were to start getting those monsters, would Yztarg have it's Soulshattering Roar Physical Shield and non-standard melee attacks? Would Belladonna have Full Bloom or Beautiful Death? Would Botuli have Gnash 'n Guttle or Slimy Proposal? Would the Naakual have any non-standard melee attacks or moves like Blistering Roar's Burn Aura, Uproot's Dia Aura, Protolithic Puncture, Tidal Guillotine, Marine Mayhem, etc?

I want to see those monster too but I want our Monipulators to have all the capabilities that the real things have(or as close an approximation that we can get given technical limitations as possible). Because if the monsters you listed were to be released now, given the current precedent set, they'd likely be basic monsters who's only real difference is higher attribute parameters and such a setup is not really conducive to layered, complex PvP or battle systems in general. I'd hate for battles to come down to Naakual or nothing because Naakual are just better in every way. Every monster needs strengths and weaknesses; monsters they counter and monsters that counter them but that won't happen if SE strips Monipulators of the incomparables that make each monster unique.

[Alhanelem]

Greetings,

Becoming a worm would sure be neat, but implementing these monsters for monstrosity would be difficult due to the fact that they have very special movement properties, just as you all have taken note of. The development team will be adding a lot of different monster families moving forward, however, and we’ll be sure to share updates on what’s to come.

Just implement it as Stance Change B(eta). You guys already created a special ability to account for Gnole and Wamoura's dual states. Just activate the ability which makes us burrow and able to move.


Yztargs
Belladonnas (Morta)
Snapweeds
Twitherym
Chapulis
Craklaws
Pteraketos (Bismarck)
Ovim (rams)
Lucerewe (sheep)
Tulfaires
Leafkin
Kulox (Apian Beasts, I believe)
Botuli
HarpeiaThese are species, not families. e.g., please correct me if I'm wrong but leafkin might be beastmen (aren't they capable of speech?). Some of these could be added later of course. But at the moment, monstrosity doesn't appear to include any expansion exclusive species (possibly due to monstrosity not being audolin expansion content, and again, correct me if i'm wrong on the preceeding statement out of parens)

[Demonjustin]

monstrosity doesn't appear to include any expansion exclusive speciesThat depends what you mean by that. Bugards for instance are from CoP, anything before that had none, Orobon are from ToAU, nothing before that had them, if you meant only monsters before expansions or without expansions are included then no.

[Alhanelem]

That depends what you mean by that. Bugards for instance are from CoP, anything before that had none, Orobon are from ToAU, nothing before that had them, if you meant only monsters before expansions or without expansions are included then no.
let me qualify that, I meant Audolin-exlusive. Many contents use monsters that existed in prior expansions to their introduction. Remember that Monstrosity isn't Audolin content, it doesn't require the expansion, and it was announced (vaguely as 'play as a monster") prior to audolin's official announcement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the monsters that were listed above are Audolin exclusive, right?

[Demonjustin]

From this list...


Yztargs
Belladonnas (Morta)
Snapweeds
Twitherym
Chapulis
Craklaws
Pteraketos (Bismarck)
Ovim (rams)
Lucerewe (sheep)
Tulfaires
Leafkin
Kulox (Apian Beasts, I believe)
Botuli
Harpeia

Most are, however Yztarg, Apian Beasts, Belladonna, Pteraketos, Harpia, Botuli, and a few others related to them but not actually in the list are all from before Adoulin. In fact, Yztarg and Apian Beasts were first introduced through Meeble Burrows, which was out probably a year or so before Adoulin's release I think, while Belladonna, Pteraketos, Harpia, and Botuli, as well as Gallu, Mantid, and Naraka were all introduced via VW. The Snapweeds, Twitherym, Chapulis, Craklaws, Tulfaires, and Leafkin are all of Adoulin origin though. Matamata are also from Adoulin and aren't mentioned though they are Lizards, which have been released, as well as Heartwings. If you include alternate skins as new monsters, there are the new Orange Sheep & Rams that are listed, the Ovim and Lucerewe, but then there are also the new bunnies which were with Adoulin, the Lapinion, as well as the new Red Behemoth skin, Ruby Raptors, Red Mantid, and possibly more, though that'ss all that comes to mind right now.

Now, here's where inconsistency comes in and why I somewhat hesitate to include alternate skins in this list. While we lack the Red Behemoth, Ovim, and Lucerewe, we actually have access to Lapinion and Ruby Raptor skins. We also have some Adoulin and Meeble specific skins or entire monsters such as Panopts which originally came from Meeble Burrows just like Yztarg and Apian Beasts, they are now in Adoulin as well, and yet we have this race but not the others.

All in all though, some of those are VW, others Meebles, and a few Adoulin, but it's spread out, and the fact we have other monsters like Panopt and Lapinion kinda shoots a hole in the 'It's because it's from Adoulin/Expansions' theory because even while VW requires WotG at least and Adoulin requires, well, Adoulin, Meeble Burrows requires nothing, and yet there are a couple mobs in Meebles that we've yet to see in Monstrosity.

[Karbuncle]

then there are also the new bunnies which were with Adoulin, the Lapinion

Lapinion were in Meeble Burows if i recall, and are indeed in Monstrosity right now.

Panopt was also a Meeble Burrows boss. So neither of them are Adoulin exclisuves, and no Adoulin mob is included in Monstrosity, even reskins. (I want the red raptor NM the most :()

There are a few mobs added in Monstrosity that appear more dominantly in adoulin but were released in previous content. You described two, Panopt and Lapinion, both native to meebles. Theres also the blue bee, which is native to Meebles as well

[Demonjustin]

So neither of them are Adoulin exclisuves, and no Adoulin mob is included in Monstrosity, even reskins. (I want the red raptor NM the most :()You mean this?

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i372/demon6324236/img_20140407_044701.png

[Blah]

OMG I just thought about it, they can let us be fairies. Yeah yeah I know they sort of took them out of it but....LET US BE FAIRIES :D