Will the recent Delve changes also apply to the new Delve II?

[Vasch]

With the recent shifts in the game from the 18-man parties of old to 6-man, it would be expected that the newest version of Delve would follow this trend. However, some confirmation would be nice so that we can start figuring out if we're going to need to wrestle together some extra people to fill out our linkshells.

[Camate]

Greetings!

The below Delve adjustment that took place in the February version update will also be applied to the new Delve content that will be implemented in the March version update. :)


The HP of NMs appearing in fractures now varies based on the number of party members.
The values remain the same for parties of eighteen players.

[Kari]

Greetings!

The Delve adjustments that will take place in the March version update will apply to both the current and new Delve content. :)

That wasn't the question.

[Draylo]

That doesn't answer the question lol.

[Camate]

Apologies! I edited my post above since the information was off. I hope this answers the OP's question.

[Kari]

Apologies! I edited my post above since the information was off. I hope this answers the OP's question.

Thanks. Glad to see the new content will keep options open.

[Draylo]

Lame, especially if the rewards for a 6 man are the same as 18man like it is now.

[Sapphires]

Kinda agree with Draylo here because 6-person version of delve is not very inclusive of alot of jobs compared to running an alliance setup.
Making a 6 person version available at the update launch just encourages conservative strategies (oh lets just throw some combination of mnk,brd,whm,sch,pld,rng only at everything)

Ive already done the previous delve areas a ton of times, but adding a 6 person version pretty much killed off anyone doing anything larger than 6 person version. I'm concerned that you've pretty much sealed off any hopes for 18 person runs of new delve for alot of your players

[Demonjustin]

In a lot of ways, people wanted 6 man Delve to make it easier, so people could get wins again, instead it only sealed their fate by making it so only the best of players who already have the drops can really do the content, and on top of that making it so profitable with few people via craft materials that taking more people became even less desired!

[Zhronne]

Greetings!

The below Delve adjustment that took place in the February version update will also be applied to the new Delve content that will be implemented in the March version update. :)


The HP of NMs appearing in fractures now varies based on the number of party members.
The values remain the same for parties of eighteen players.

Won't there be overpopulation/lag issues? Too much stress on the server handling the instancing of Yorcia zones?
It was already a mess when only full alliances could enter, with the previous 3 Delve zones. With so many much more groups able to enter from day 1 it feels like lag is going to be even worse.

Also, while this wasn't really a problem for 10+ months old content (first 3 delve zones) I feel it's totally unrealistic and unbalanced that the number and quality of drops you can get from killing a Fracture megaboss with 18 people is exactely the same as the amount you get from killing it with 6 people.
Seriously, it makes no sense.
Within limits, just like difficulty and HP scales according to the number of people present, even the amount of plasm and number/quality of drops should scale.
It seriously makes no sense to give all this advantage to small groups. What's even the purpose of going there with an alliance there?
It's completely unrealistic.

I really like the idea of scaling content, but having it available from day1 and with the same drop rates is really disappointing, from my personal point of view.

[Olor]

In a lot of ways, people wanted 6 man Delve to make it easier, so people could get wins again, instead it only sealed their fate by making it so only the best of players who already have the drops can really do the content, and on top of that making it so profitable with few people via craft materials that taking more people became even less desired!

yeah. I thought the point of 6-person delve was to make it easier for players who haven't cleared the content to complete it. My LS does not have players that can complete it, either on 18 people or with 6. It's not very helpful to basically make it so the only way to complete 6-person delve is to already have the drops already :(

I would much prefer to see the difficulty lowered and the number of drops/amount of plasm reduced.

[Draylo]

Or join a linkshell.... Why should SE cater to you because you don't have friends or the playtime for a MMO? You have plenty of content you can do casually, the game shouldn't be dumbed down just for you.

[Camiie]

Come on, Draylo. No one attempts to dumb down the game like hardcore players do. It's not noobs running fish bots to fund their RMEs, automating the game with spellcast and other tools, and exploiting all the exploits that can possibly be exploited. It's not so much that they want a challenge. It's that they want exclusivity. "I can get this and you cannot." Whether they get it by hook or by crook seems to be irrelevant judging by their actions.

[Olor]

Or join a linkshell.... Why should SE cater to you because you don't have friends or the playtime for a MMO? You have plenty of content you can do casually, the game shouldn't be dumbed down just for you.

I am in a linkshell. Please read my comments if you're going to reply to them. My LS hasn't been able to clear the fights. They already used the dev time to make the fights adjust based on number of people who entered - it seems like if the only thing that did was make it so people who already cleared it have less incentive to take people who haven't, then the dev time spent was wasted. I am suggesting they adjust the fights so that folks who don't cheat with automated gear switching can also clear them. If the content is not hard enough for you after they adjust it - maybe turn off your spellcast, and try pressing buttons to switch your gear with legal macros.

[Draylo]

You sound like a very bad player, I love the angst you have towards people who are successful in this game. You don't even need to gear swap much anymore, SE has created gear that serves multi-purpose roles and you don't need as much. Stop being such a bad and actually see how you can improve. How about the fact myself and others beat this with no mega boss gear when it first came out? How do you think we were able to do that?

[Lsvtec]

I am in a linkshell. Please read my comments if you're going to reply to them. My LS hasn't been able to clear the fights. They already used the dev time to make the fights adjust based on number of people who entered - it seems like if the only thing that did was make it so people who already cleared it have less incentive to take people who haven't, then the dev time spent was wasted. I am suggesting they adjust the fights so that folks who don't cheat with automated gear switching can also clear them. If the content is not hard enough for you after they adjust it - maybe turn off your spellcast, and try pressing buttons to switch your gear with legal macros.

Its players like u that ruin the fun of challenging content for hardcore players like me or draylo, we consistently beat all delve i.e bee shark trex and their are plenty of us in linkshell that dont use "automated gear changer" the fact that u cant win sounds like a you problem.... My advice to you would be, Suckless?

[Camiie]

A community that constantly cheats forfeits both its right to complain about others wanting content to be made easier or more accessible as well as its right to look down on anyone.

[Lsvtec]

A community that constantly cheats forfeits both its right to complain about others wanting content to be made easier or more accessible as well as its right to look down on anyone.

You completley mis-read/and or mis-interpreted what i said, constantly cheat a likely excuse as to why u cant beat tojil, whtever makes u sleep eaiser at night... A community that constantly QQs over not being able to beat current Delve that has been nerfed way way down forfeits their right to cry over it...


ps: i have beat tojil a couple time 6man w/o linkshell help with no bots no gear changing nor any help from 3p tools so please explain to me y it is sooooo hard to beat and y u cant do it.... Dont worry, ill wait

[Demonjustin]

i have beat tojil a couple time 6man w/o linkshell help with no bots no gear changing nor any help from 3p tools so please explain to me y it is sooooo hard to beat and y u cant do it.... Dont worry, ill waitBeat Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or Muyingwa 6 man without any 119 gear outside of maybe RF1/2+1. Don't worry, I'll wait.

[Camiie]

You completley mis-read/and or mis-interpreted what i said, constantly cheat a likely excuse as to why u cant beat tojil, whtever makes u sleep eaiser at night... A community that constantly QQs over not being able to beat current Delve that has been nerfed way way down forfeits their right to cry over it...


ps: i have beat tojil a couple time 6man w/o linkshell help with no bots no gear changing nor any help from 3p tools so please explain to me y it is sooooo hard to beat and y u cant do it.... Dont worry, ill wait

http://31.media.tumblr.com/c9e750f96e52b0468eeecf69a2b92ff0/tumblr_mr34rgGnTg1qk9f8bo1_400.gif

[Lsvtec]

Beat Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or Muyingwa 6 man without any 119 gear outside of maybe RF1/2+1. Don't worry, I'll wait.

have done it several times, took gimps in like yourself and have beat with 15-20mins left, care to make anymore excuses as to why u cant beat it? Oh wait i forgot Delve is srs bizness yo! Jokes aside i dont think they should nerf anything anymore make it just as challenging as it was when it first came out and stick u casual gimps to the ROE equipment because delve is hard QQ

[Demonjustin]

have done it several times, took gimps in like yourself and have beat with 15-20mins left, care to make anymore excuses as to why u cant beat it? Oh wait i forgot Delve is srs bizness yo! Jokes aside i dont think they should nerf anything anymore make it just as challenging as it was when it first came out and stick u casual gimps to the ROE equipment because delve is hard QQLike myself? Ha... I have a name as one of the best RDMs on Phoenix and finished these NMs long ago back in the first couple months of release, I am far from a gimp or someone who can't beat it, don't even try to act as though you know me. All your post boils down to is insults toward others you know nothing about while you assume their intentions or abilities from their arguments against you.

You know what, I'll believe that you 6-manned the Bosses with non-119 gear when you show me a video, ya know why I have doubts though? You talk all big and bad, how you finished these NMs in the months following their release, how likely do you think anyone here is to believe that you would have honestly done these NMs 6 man without the gear obtained in those battles? I don't mean using things like 113 gear as in armor, I mainly meant the weapons you would have to use that wouldn't even give you enough accuracy to land your blows seeing as last I knew the NMs in these zones still have their EVA & DEF they normally would, they just have lower HP. At 117 weapon Accuracy and without some of the more high end gear like the MPNMs I highly doubt you would even hit them really let alone kill them.

This is all pointless though, because you will do nothing more than continue to block with pathetic insults such as 'y u so gimp?' I'm sure rather than trying to prove wrong the point that in order to get the Delve wins people are basically unable to get wins anymore without buying them due to the lack of shouts existing at all and the fact you need 119 gear to beat these bosses 6 man. If you can do it so easily though, why not record it then? Prove me wrong, you have done is 'several times' right? Should be no issue to simply record it or have a party member record it for you one run as proof I would think.

[Lsvtec]

Like myself? Ha... I have a name as one of the best RDMs on Phoenix and finished these NMs long ago back in the first couple months of release, I am far from a gimp or someone who can't beat it, don't even try to act as though you know me. All your post boils down to is insults toward others you know nothing about while you assume their intentions or abilities from their arguments against you.

You know what, I'll believe that you 6-manned the Bosses with non-119 gear when you show me a video, ya know why I have doubts though? You talk all big and bad, how you finished these NMs in the months following their release, how likely do you think anyone here is to believe that you would have honestly done these NMs 6 man without the gear obtained in those battles? I don't mean using things like 113 gear as in armor, I mainly meant the weapons you would have to use that wouldn't even give you enough accuracy to land your blows seeing as last I knew the NMs in these zones still have their EVA & DEF they normally would, they just have lower HP. At 117 weapon Accuracy and without some of the more high end gear like the MPNMs I highly doubt you would even hit them really let alone kill them.

This is all pointless though, because you will do nothing more than continue to block with pathetic insults such as 'y u so gimp?' I'm sure rather than trying to prove wrong the point that in order to get the Delve wins people are basically unable to get wins anymore without buying them due to the lack of shouts existing at all and the fact you need 119 gear to beat these bosses 6 man. If you can do it so easily though, why not record it then? Prove me wrong, you have done is 'several times' right? Should be no issue to simply record it or have a party member record it for you one run as proof I would think.

you being a good rdm in delve means absolutely dick to me as well as your name LAWL, seeing as enfeebles can be landed by the sch, wat needs to be proved? ive got the gear/kis ur agruements are nothing but a joke point blank period im just sick of seeing all of u QQ over not having wins, when the people that bitch about not having said gear are lazy and dont get up and put the time into their toon that is needed to clear said content.... my post wasnt directly aimed at anyone just in general so stop taking what i type to heart, judging by wat u typed tho i can see the butthurt welling up inside u, im done here but i know ur getting started u keyboard commando u :)

[Olor]

Oh god, well even if I suck at FFXI I can console myself knowing that at least I can string a sentence together that doesn't make me sound like a gimp in real life.

At any rate - my point is, if the only thing that turning delve into 6-mannable content did was make it HARDER for new players to complete it - then it was a waste of development time and never should have been done in the first place. If the goal was to make it easier for people without wins to complete, it failed utterly because HP of the NMs was never the main problem.

In reality I don't care if people use spellcast - however, I do care when people who do use spellcast then cast aspersions on those of us who play vanilla, and act like they are better players, when in reality - they are cheating. And I do care if folks who are cheating whine about content not being hard enough.

I don't particularly care if folks think I just suck yada yada ya, really couldn't care less. I am a paying customer who would like to have access to content though.

[Selindrile]

Fellas, you're both pretty.

But I have to ask, isn't being the best Rdm somewhat akin to being the fastest snail, or the highest jumping elephant?

Meaning, even if you are, it's not all that useful, lol, though I actually just posted on someone's "improve Rdm" thread, so I couldn't help but make the joke.

[Demonjustin]

you being a good rdm in delve means absolutely dick to me as well as your name LAWL, seeing as enfeebles can be landed by the sch, wat needs to be proved? ive got the gear/kis ur agruements are nothing but a joke point blank period im just sick of seeing all of u QQ over not having winsDid you fail to understand my point was that I'm not a bad player nor gimp and have each of these KIs and yet still side with these people? Did that really just simply go over your head? The point of saying that I am a well known RDM on Phoenix is to point out that who you're talking to isn't just another one of the people you would classify as gimp who are unable to get their wins or the like, but rather someone who knows what they're talking about and yet still fundamentally disagrees with you. It's one thing to argue with someone who is ignorant to the content or complaining about content they are unable to complete, it's a whole other story to argue against someone who could be considered your equal in the subject.


when the people that bitch about not having said gear are lazy and dont get up and put the time into their toon that is needed to clear said content.... my post wasnt directly aimed at anyone just in general so stop taking what i type to heart, judging by wat u typed tho i can see the butthurt welling up inside u, im done here but i know ur getting started u keyboard commando u :)It's not butthurt, it's the fact I hate that people are so stupid as to think that anyone who wants certain change must in fact be directly affected by the change. I support removing CoP as a requirement for Reforging gear for instance, the fact it doesn't help me at all doesn't make any difference, I can still support it, but people seem to think if you aren't personally restricted by something you aren't allowed to actually argue for the change of said restrictions. As for not being directly aimed at anyone... perhaps you fail to understand how english works, this, is directly aiming a comment at someone...
have done it several times, took gimps in like yourselfDesignating me, rather than saying just people in general.

Seeing as you failed to acknowledge anything pertaining to the crux of my argument and instead chose to focus on the fact I attempted to point out why you should actually listen to what I say rather than dismissing it as being a 'gimp' simply complaining about being unable to beat content, I will assume you won't be proving me wrong about being able to beat the content with 6 people and no 119 gear outside of Reforged Gear.

[Camiie]

have done it several times, took gimps in like yourself and have beat with 15-20mins left, care to make anymore excuses as to why u cant beat it? Oh wait i forgot Delve is srs bizness yo! Jokes aside i dont think they should nerf anything anymore make it just as challenging as it was when it first came out and stick u casual gimps to the ROE equipment because delve is hard QQ

In my nearly 10 years on FFXI, I've found that those who do the most barking are seldom the biggest dogs.

[Demonjustin]

But I have to ask, isn't being the best Rdm somewhat akin to being the fastest snail, or the highest jumping elephant?

Meaning, even if you are, it's not all that useful, lolThe point of saying it isn't to brag though, I'm not saying it because I think I'm cool, the point is to dispel the argument that I am in some way a player ignorant to that of which I speak, that I could be thought of as a player who has not done or completed the content and it is for that reason I agree that it should be changed. Basically, I point it out because I want to make it clear that I am a player who knows what they're talking about and shouldn't be dismissed because of some asinine view that anyone who wants something to change must by definition be affected by such change. I often support changes that have no affect on me and yet it seems like so many people have the asinine impression that only those who are affected care, and at the same time that they are simply whining about things because of the fact they can't or don't feel like completing it.

I point this out only because I feel like maybe if I do maybe I can get a bit more credibility to my argument rather than so many people dismissing it like they do with others who disagree with them.

[Selindrile]

Credibility is usually lost when claiming to be good, especially when you use the word "best", at something, rather than gained.

I certainly don't have a dog in the fight nor am I calling you good or bad, I was just pointing out the humor value of the statement, even, perhaps especially, if true.

[Calatilla]

The thing about MMO's is that they're team based for the most part. Saying "I'm" awesome because "I" beat delve is kinda wrong because if the other people with you suck you alone aint gonna win it, no matter how awesome you think you are.

I guess thats why elitist don't like helping noobs get wins, because if you surround yourself with nubs you start looking like one.

[Demonjustin]

Credibility is usually lost when claiming to be good, especially when you use the word "best", at something, rather than gained.

I certainly don't have a dog in the fight nor am I calling you good or bad, I was just pointing out the humor value of the statement, even, perhaps especially, if true.I get your point, and you're right. I just hate when people belittle opinions in cases like these as though everyone who supports something must innately be on the same level. So far as the word best goes by itself, I use it sparingly because of that, and am always sure to say 'one of the best' rather than 'the best' because I am neither egotistical enough to think I am best, nor do I think it would make my argument stronger and could probably end up even weakening it. When it comes to credibility overall though, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation it seems, either say nothing and get treated a noob with a noob's perspective or sing your own praises and as a result be treated as though you're simply talking out your ass. :(

[Draylo]

I don't understand how you would need to beat Delve w/o 119 gear? You realize how easy 119 gear is to get? The newest update just put EASY outside delve Nms that you can get amazing weapons from. Prior to that, you could have gotten ROE weapons which are 117 and then reforged AF that is 119. Stop sucking and figure this game out, it isn't hard. Gil falls from trees these days.

[Demonjustin]

I don't understand how you would need to beat Delve w/o 119 gear? You realize how easy 119 gear is to get? The newest update just put EASY outside delve Nms that you can get amazing weapons from. Prior to that, you could have gotten ROE weapons which are 117 and then reforged AF that is 119. Stop sucking and figure this game out, it isn't hard. Gil falls from trees these days.Congratulations on figuring out exactly why I said non-119 gear whilst excluding Reforged gear! I know perfectly fine how easy Sparks gear is to obtain, I also know how easy it is to obtain Reforged gear, my point of setting that restriction is most 119 gear is treated as though you must have a support job or 119 gear to do the content. I haven't really seen any Eminent DDs doing 119 content ranging from the new Skirmish to the new Delve NMs, AAs, DM, or the other 2 MPNMs. RF is excluded on the fact that it is easily obtained by some gil, quests, and RoE, nothing else level 119 is really obtainable without doing 119 content, and since getting into 119 content without having 119 gear can be difficult, it should be excluded from the example of just how easy Delve is.

You want to point out how easy Delve is with 6 people who need win? Go do win with non-119 characters, hell do it with characters who have never beaten Delve at all, at least then you can say Delve wins aren't required, but you won't do it, neither will he, and that's why your argument fails. You can't say it's easy to do and at the same time not do it yourself. Delve without 119 gear was possible when you had 18 people at your finger tips all who wanted to do the content and most of who needed win because you could get the exact setup you needed, you could lower a mob's EVA to realistic levels, in 6 man you can't do that. This topic originated with the idea of how 6 man Delve is to hard if I recall, because with 6 people the only people who stand a chance are those who have the gear already, you want to have ground to stand on in the debate then show some proof!

[Draylo]

You can become a 119 DD through other content so you can 6 man it, I don't see your point? Are you implying its hard to get into Skirmish 3 or the new Delve Nms that people take an alliance to?

[MarkovChain]

The new delve is disappointing. I played 15 minutes yesterday (and this week) and got 2 of the 4 pieces I wanted. Then threw money on airlixrs +2 and capped them... SE failed when they decided to keep the same plasm in the new version. People are necessarily capping gear quickly except maybe newbs, as they already have plasm to buy stuff on NPC, and the AH is full of airlixirs +2. As a consequence, most people stick to farming a couple of KI and then they are done. This also mean that the new-bosses will not be farmed (drops seem to suck anyway) because at least with tojil & v1, boss runs were a way to farm plasm.

[Demonjustin]

You can become a 119 DD through other content so you can 6 man it, I don't see your point? Are you implying its hard to get into Skirmish 3 or the new Delve Nms that people take an alliance to?Care to explain how you would expect a player unable to get wins to obtain 150k Plasm? As for Skirmish, yes, I think people with only 117 weapons have a hard time getting into it because 119 has become the norm the way it has and on top of that the KI has such a pathetic drop rate due to the content being flawed that if a player does do Skirmish they are very likely to walk away without a KI for quite some time.

[saevel]

Seeing as I've been doing 6 man Delve runs to get people KI wins, it's f*cking hard as hell to win when half the people haven't beaten it already and aren't geared up. There is nothing that's going to make up the difference between a RoE 117 H2H and Oat's, nor the Polearm / GKT / Swords / ect. Now hopefully some have a 119 RME which can be acquired without any serious work if they already had them at 99. Can't even expect R15 delve gear in general as people stopped doing plasm farming runs, they only want to do 5+1 clears for the plasm which kinda puts people in a catch 22 situation.

Basically people need to get in a linkshell that's willing to organize 18 man runs to get everyone KI's and farm a ton of plasm for everyone to use for gear upgrades. Of course you run into the problem of all the good BRDs, COR's, WHM's and SCH's running away and joining already pimped six man groups leaving the non-pimped to gear up those jobs, learn them and eventually run off also.

[saevel]

Care to explain how you would expect a player unable to get wins to obtain 150k Plasm? As for Skirmish, yes, I think people with only 117 weapons have a hard time getting into it because 119 has become the norm the way it has and on top of that the KI has such a pathetic drop rate due to the content being flawed that if a player does do Skirmish they are very likely to walk away without a KI for quite some time.

Skirmish III can be done with 117 melee's, just need a decent support line and people not being retarded. The info's out there for them to fight the NM's pretty easily and the gear level is really low. Of course plasm farming is still a PITA, SE really needs to add some secondary method to farm up just plasm in small groups, maybe a second set of fractures that don't have any NM's in them.

[Draylo]

You can easily kill 5 nms in fracture with 117~119(skirm 3 gear) and get 10k plasm per run. It takes 15~20m to kill all 5 nm and then you can exit and reenter to farm plasm.

[saevel]

You can easily kill 5 nms in fracture with 117~119(skirm 3 gear) and get 10k plasm per run. It takes 15~20m to kill all 5 nm and then you can exit and reenter to farm plasm.

Yep and yet very few groups actively do this, which is the point I was making. Also 10K plasm per run isn't sh!t when you need to spend 300K just for the three airlixers +2 to upgrade a single piece of 113 gear. And lets not get into the prices for the newer stuff.

And even then, assuming everyone does that and now has a pair of 117 H2H, they still aren't going to be killing Tojil without a 4 song BRD who has long defected. In every successful low man group I notice two things in common, first being that they are experienced and well geared, second being the presence of a 3~4 song BRD. Those have become a rare commodity and generally have a princess like mentality since they can get instantly accepted into nearly any group on a given server.

[FaeQueenCory]

Those have become a rare commodity and generally have a princess like mentality since they can get instantly accepted into nearly any group on a given server.
Well... it's cause they can.

Being a BRD with 4 songs can really inflate your ego...
In the exact opposite way that being a SMN can deflate your ego...

They are a rare commodity because there's nothing else like them in the game, and have been a hard staple in endgame events since the beginning of endgame events. (though apparently SE wants to make GEO more the level of BRD? Ain't ever gonna happen. GEO's limit will always be 2 buff OR enfeebles. The only way GEO can gain more effects would be more self-only... cause the luopan abilities screw up the coding if there's more than one.)

[Draylo]

Why do you insist you need a 4 song bard? Should I low man a Tojil with a 2 (3 with new 1hr) or 3 song bard to shut you up?

[Demonjustin]

Why do you insist you need a 4 song bard? Should I low man a Tojil with a 2 (3 with new 1hr) or 3 song bard to shut you up?What you do is meaningless unless you put yourself in the same exact position that a group without any Delve wins would have, until you can see it from exactly that viewpoint understand the issues with it nothing you say will make any difference. I didn't even reply to your last post because in it you made it blatantly clear you don't think of it from the other side at all, why? Simple, you simply think people can lowman the NMs in 15~20 minutes and get their Plasm instantly. The thing is that most groups don't kill that quickly with 119 gear from what I have ever seen in shout groups, you're asking people without 119 gear to go out and do that very thing though and yet expect them apparently to be faster than your average 119 group. I'm sure you would follow up with the fact they can still kill them all but it just takes longer, but the point however is that you are thinking about it from where you are not others.

[Draylo]

Dumbing down the content (which is already extremely easy) is not the answer. Improving your character to beat the content is the answer.

[Demonjustin]

Dumbing down the content (which is already extremely easy) is not the answer. Improving your character to beat the content is the answer.
Person A: Tojil {Do you need it?} 17/18 DD {Can I have it?} {/tell} {please}

Person B: I have MNK.

Person A: Oats?

Person B: Eminent, but I have decent gear & am a good player! I can't get Oats without Tojil. : /

Person A: Sorry, Oats only, maybe when you're better geared.

Person B: But how do I get Oats if I can't do Tojil without Oats, which is the only way to obtain Oats? -_-;

Person A:...The above is the typical talk most of my non-Oat friends have ever described to me when trying to join runs when people actually did 18 man runs. The idiocy of the paradoxical nature of 'improving your character to beat the content' is in itself the very core of the issue. If the only answer to getting to do 119 content is to improve your character to 119 levels, and at the same time the only way to do that is to do 119 content which people won't invite you to without have 119 gear, you are looking at a paradox which can't easily be solved by your average player. Sure some people can step out of the bounds of this by asking friends, I have many friends myself who I have assisted in such a way, but not everyone will have this same situation and not everyone will be able to get it done.



In either case I feel like we're sidestepping the issue here. The main issue is the fact that non-119 people can't 6-man Delve, at the same time Delve 6-man has killed off all want to do 18-man runs for Delve which leaves non-119 people without any ability to complete the content. If you need 119 gear to do 119 content, a skilled group, and so on, no one will do it with 6 people. As it was said earlier, the good people of the group will find themselves those 6 man runs already going & winning while everyone else will get screwed, this isn't just for BRDs with extra songs, it's for any good player in a group trying to improve enough to complete the content.




Dumbing down the content (which is already extremely easy) is not the answer.Oh and by the way, while the rest of my post more or less adresses the idea of improving your character, I wanted to also point out that this comment right here only serves to prove the point I made with my previous post.
What you do is meaningless unless you put yourself in the same exact position that a group without any Delve wins would have, until you can see it from exactly that viewpoint understand the issues with it nothing you say will make any difference.
the point however is that you are thinking about it from where you are not others.

[Camiie]

Not to launch a personal attack, but most people in Draylo's shoes can't even relate to new or returning players anymore. They don't know what it is to start from scratch or from 2 or 3 years behind the curve. They've forgotten all the steps they had to take to get where they are today. They think all a new player has to do is step into Abyssea and everything else just magically falls into place.

[Draylo]

So would posting a video of me doing Tojil with my friends and being in gear like 117 eminent gear and a two song bard change your opinions? It really isn't hard, you are just bad players if you can't beat it and you need to improve yourselves.

[Demonjustin]

So would posting a video of me doing Tojil with my friends and being in gear like 117 eminent gear and a two song bard change your opinions?A 6-man run with only a 2 Song BRD, 117 Eminent gear with the exception of potential RF+1 gear, and yes, you might get some amount of ground to stand on with your argument and have some affect on my opinion on the subject. I won't ask you to refrain from gear swaps, but the fact you will be swapping gear admittedly does put some amount of trust in your honesty since I won't likely see you swapping and can't tell if you're using different gear either, though admittedly not many 119 pieces outside of AF/RF are so massively important other than weapons that I expect it to make a large difference.


you are just bad players if you can't beat it and you need to improve yourselves.Another failure to use proper english unless meaningfully directing it at those whom of which you are talking to, in this case presumably me. If you are talking to me, I have already stated I have beaten these NMs multiple times, thus, your comment is inaccurate.

[saevel]

Nahh he's gone way out in left field. I do Tojil with a core group of guys and we smash it utterly for plasm farming. We've tried to "get people the KI" and it's an utter nightmare. You can't trust them on any important job, not even the healer (a healer who hasn't healed through these fights isn't going to know WTF to do). Our best strategy so far is to have the same core six people, then only bring in 1~2 more and have them come as BLM or something and pretty much ignore their existence. The NM's have 10% more HP but that's not any real impairment to our ability to smash it. We finish and bring in another set of two people, rinse and repeat. It's the only way to get consistent wins because most people have zero idea how to do that run, and the shark and bee are even more complicated.

Anyone who things that six people in level 117 gear can waltz in and kill Tojil is bullsh!ting and should be treated the same as if their trying to sell you some nice oceanfront property in Oklahoma. Hell six people in 119 weapons without the supporting gear won't be able to do it. Even six people with all the gear in the world won't do it if they are average players (the definition of your majority btw).

[Draylo]

Um did you forget that Tojil was out before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff? If I find the time I'll have a friend post a video of our run. If "average players" can't beat this content then they shouldn't be allowed to get the drops. You should be content with lower tier gear, not force SE to dumb the content down so you idiots can complete it. I honestly don't care for this discussion anymore either, SE will do as it sees fit and I'm glad they haven't totally caved in to terribad players.

[Demonjustin]

Um did you forget that Tojil was out before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff?I personally did not forget, no, however the fact you bring this up brings another question to the table. Did you forget how many buffers and debuffers you needed to beat NMs like Tojil before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff? Last I knew back when we were doing that you had 18 people in the party and some of which were jobs like RDM for Dia III and Gravity II to lower EVA, or GEO for the same kinda thing, lower EVA, lower DEF, then you had BRD & COR swaps for the same kinda thing, Acc+ and Atk+ and so on. It's not as though back then it was all sunshine and rainbows and you just were so badass you could beat it without these buffs and pulled through, no, not even close. Back then you needed a ton of buffs and debuffs to stand a chance at even hitting, let alone hurting, let alone killing the NMs. So to bring up that up right now seems kinda pointless, you're setting two very completely different sets of circumstances up and saying that because A is possible, B is equally as possible.


If I find the time I'll have a friend post a video of our run. If "average players" can't beat this content then they shouldn't be allowed to get the drops.On a general basis I would agree with that idea, the fact that players who can't beat content shouldn't be allowed to get the drops. That being said you again forgot something, when 18 people did it, it was much easier to kill Tojil, it was much easier in general to kill any of the NMs and walk away with a win. Back when you had 18 people Alliances and no 6-man option people shouted a ton and people without the win had a chance to get it. Fast forward to today and you find no shout groups for Plasm at all really, instead you find small closed in groups of people doing 6 man runs like the ones Saevel mentioned and that's it. Why take extras when you don't need to?

The thing is that it all goes back to being able to 6-man the content without the win now because no one does it with an alliance, and while you can say that people shouldn't get the gear if they can't beat the content, I think the odds are stacked against those without the wins in a massive way.


You should be content with lower tier gear, not force SE to dumb the content down so you idiots can complete it. I honestly don't care for this discussion anymore either, SE will do as it sees fit and I'm glad they haven't totally caved in to terribad players.Again with the aforementioned lack of ability to use the english language properly and insinuations of things which have already been proven untrue.

[Draylo]

What exactly do you mean by "lack of ability to use the english language properly"?

[Demonjustin]

What exactly do you mean by "lack of ability to use the english language properly"?
You should be content with lower tier gear, not force SE to dumb the content down so you idiots can complete it. I honestly don't care for this discussion anymore either, SE will do as it sees fit and I'm glad they haven't totally caved in to terribad players.This post implies that the target of the comment can not already complete the content, is an idiot, and is a 'terribad' player, the reason it's a poor use of the english language is because the rest of your post seems to be in reply to me. I have beaten the NMs, proving one of the 3 criteria inaccurate, I can't actually prove the other two to you in any meaningful way, but I am rather confident I don't fall into those categories. As a result, either you failed to correctly articulate who your comment is talking about or you simply failed to use the language correctly.

I honestly only started pointing this out because earlier someone wanted to get on me about retaliating to the same kind of comment, and as a result I'm now going to simply point out every time someone uses 'you' incorrectly as you seem to have done in that quote.

[Draylo]

It's in general... It can apply to everyone in one statement and then a portion towards you. Please don't resort to petty "english language" jabs. If anything, you have to capitalize the E in English lol.

[Demonjustin]

Like I said, not really meant to be a spelling thing or anything like that, I hate those arguments as much as the next person. I just started pointing it because of the posts earlier in this thread on page 3, nothing more, I'll stop though. The main reason I made a point about addressing it then is because I support the change and I'm someone who can win, I don't think it's a matter of being unable to complete it due to lack of skill or gear, but rather a lack of balance.

[Draylo]

I just don't see what people want SE to do. They want cruor buffs and brews so you can one shot Tojil? The newest delve NMs are being called "Easy" as a 6 man, this game isn't hard.

[Demonjustin]

You can't get 119 gear without doing 119 content, so why not make it so 119 content is reasonable to do with 117 gear, 122 content is reasonable to do with 119 gear, and so on? You can argue it's possible now, sure, it's possible I don't doubt it in all honesty, but the odds are heavily stacked against a 6-man party in the older 119 content for most people. You could say most people suck and aren't worthy but that's a bad argument when everyone & their mom no matter if they sucked or not had access to the wins only a few weeks ago. The only reason wins got so much insanely harder is the fact everything is 6-man now, no one wants to do 18-man runs at all really and for that fact no one besides people who are deemed worthy to go on these runs will get the win. The only people who can join those 6-man runs, are BRDs, WHMs, Stun SCHs, and 119 DDs, and even if someone levels the job to get them into it without a DD you're unlikely to get into groups since they're more closed off than 18-man runs ever were (most consist of LS or Static groups now), and even more unlikely to get any win besides Tojil!

You don't see what people want SE to do? Well, let me explain what I want them to do.

-I would like to see drops balanced properly, either more Plasm/Drops for 18-man runs, with drop rates, Plasm obtained, and everything else scaled upward while the member number increases. This gives everyone more reason to bring with them a full party of people, rather than giving a massive amount of incentive to do it with the fewest amount possible like right now, where the craft item at the end for instance can be sold for a large amount of gil and will drop either way, which makes it most profitable to do with few people and split the gil. This change is completely meaningless unless the craft item is the primary adjusted drop rate, and the Plasm follows suit. Anyone spamming this in 6-man runs has the gear, changing it is meaningless, but if you change the Plasm & Craft Item rates based on the number of people I am sure 18-man runs will look a lot better soon enough.

-I would also like to see them lower the DEF & EVA on the NMs a bit, which would allow 117 gear DDs to do more DMG & more easily deal DMG, no 119 DD will have any issues hitting anymore so at very least lowering the EVA changes nothing in the realm of 119 DDs, only those who have yet to obtain these weapons.

-Lastly I would say lower the Plasm cost on the boss weapons/gear. Why? Simple, as you have pointed out before it's a ton easier to get Skirmish gear so this should be made easier in my opinion due to that fact. It also stands to reason that this gear be lowered in cost since again, everyone who has completed this content has the weapons already, by changing the prices you are basically only helping new players and those who are trying to catch up, anyone who did this earlier has the drops and really doesn't benefit nor does it make it easier at all, only faster.

[saevel]

I personally did not forget, no, however the fact you bring this up brings another question to the table. Did you forget how many buffers and debuffers you needed to beat NMs like Tojil before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff

This is the key. Prior to the iLevel update we had 4 rolls, 6~7 songs and 2 geo debuffs on Tojil to go with R15 delve gear and stuff like Oats / Senbaak, only the best shells could get consistent wins. The only thing the iLevel update did was add a ton of attack / acc to the melee's and magic acc to the SCH's so you didn't need nearly as many buffs, better shells could now consistently get the wins and average players could if they leveled COR and GEO with minimal effort. Now that 6 man exists, all the older players who used to carry the average players have formed small groups for easier plasm farming. So now you got a bunch of average players who don't have the support nor experienced folks to get the win for them.

[Draylo]

-I would like to see drops balanced properly, either more Plasm/Drops for 18-man runs, with drop rates, Plasm obtained, and everything else scaled upward while the member number increases. This gives everyone more reason to bring with them a full party of people, rather than giving a massive amount of incentive to do it with the fewest amount possible like right now, where the craft item at the end for instance can be sold for a large amount of gil and will drop either way, which makes it most profitable to do with few people and split the gil. This change is completely meaningless unless the craft item is the primary adjusted drop rate, and the Plasm follows suit. Anyone spamming this in 6-man runs has the gear, changing it is meaningless, but if you change the Plasm & Craft Item rates based on the number of people I am sure 18-man runs will look a lot better soon enough.

I agree with you 100% and I even made a thread about this. The rest I don't care for/agree with (I strongly am against weakening this content even MORE.) SE really made a mistake having the 18 man fights the same rate of drops as the 6 man. This also encourages people to bring mules over real players due to the fact its less competition for the end items to sell.