Why doesn't a monk's counter generate tp?

[Malthar]

Hi SE,

Could you explain this one to me again? When a monk counters it does damage to the mob. Countering is striking inside an opponents strike and getting there first. Shouldn't it generate tp?

[Brightshadow]

MNK are overpowered as is they don't need something to set off the DD scale even more.

[Selindrile]

I'd rather see other jobs buffed rather than Mnk nerfed, (not that it needs TP from counter, yes, War gets it from retaliation, but it doesn't matter enough to matter) I don't feel like Mnk is overpowered for the content and roles it's used for, I feel like many other jobs that fufill similar roles and content are underpowered, but admittedly, it's a matter of perspective, comparing each job to the content, rather than against each other.

[Raydeus]

Balancing is a b*tch.

As a RDM I've seen my job being denied so many things that are clearly ours in favor of making other jobs better instead. I mean, I can't really blame the Devs for being so afraid of us, but that doesn't make it suck less.

And MNK is probably the next target for "adjustments".

[Malthar]

Would it really be overpowered if counter generated tp? Consider:

Monks are primarily used against bosses as DD's, not tanks. If the monk got hate, momentarily, then they may counter once or twice, till hate is pulled. The tp generated would be minimal at most.

If the monk in tanking mode then they're usually up against one NM and won't mass counter.

If the monk is tanking multiple NQ mobs, then yes, you'll see massive tp gain, as in the warrior's retaliation, and would gain tp in the same manner as a warrior would tanking multiple NQ mobs.

So, is allowing a monk's counter to generate tp really that overpowered? I think no.

[Raydeus]

The way they go about it is that it's not that this specific change would be OP by itself, but that since the job as a whole is considered OP to begin with (mainly because people complain about it) any addition to it would make it even more OP than before.

RDM has suffered from this for years upon years, where this type of things are given to other jobs instead because we were considered OP at the time. Even if the skill or spell in question was anything but that.

[dasva]

Because you are basically making the mob hit itself instead of you while retaliation just hits it in response to hitting you. That's just from a lore perspective... if you want to compare power well you can get 80% counter rate while Retaliation is much lower from the testing I've seen 20-50% with less for higher delays. Counter prevents dmg retalaition doesn't. Also they updated it awhile back to make it so you couldn't block a countered hit. Don't think they fixed that yet. Not sure it's been tested it but probably counts for gaurd and the weird ghetto gaurd they give pld mobs without shields.

Also mnks have been used as counter tanks in the past... and sorta still like how you see 4 mnk + 2 support groups to take on nms and such. Sure not the mobs that you need a pld on but most other things it works

[Damane]

Would it really be overpowered if counter generated tp? Consider:

Monks are primarily used against bosses as DD's, not tanks. If the monk got hate, momentarily, then they may counter once or twice, till hate is pulled. The tp generated would be minimal at most.

If the monk in tanking mode then they're usually up against one NM and won't mass counter.

If the monk is tanking multiple NQ mobs, then yes, you'll see massive tp gain, as in the warrior's retaliation, and would gain tp in the same manner as a warrior would tanking multiple NQ mobs.

So, is allowing a monk's counter to generate tp really that overpowered? I think no.

This has to be a joke right? At the current state how counter rate works it would totally break the job and pull it even further ahead with little to no effort needed compared to other DD (not like monk needs alot of effort now compared to other DDs) if they would get TP from it

[Karbuncle]

It would be considerably overpowered, MNKs are in fact used as tanks these days. Exceptions being perhaps any of the new Hardmode fights like AA and the Super Zilart Bros. As is MNK is a wrecking house OP DD, adding any DD buff to it is in fact pushing them further ahead, which is just something the job does not need right now.

But the reason would likely be balance, Retaliation gains TP Because you receive damage still, as a balance, Countering Nullifies damage completely and deals damage to the enemy, but generates no TP.

[Martel]

Also they updated it awhile back to make it so you couldn't block a countered hit. Don't think they fixed that yet. Not sure it's been tested it but probably counts for guard and the weird ghetto guard they give pld mobs without shields.Before, When you proc'd a shield block on a counter, it would count as the counter missing. So the counter wouldn't fire at all and the PLD's hit would go through normally. This was very useful on mobs with high counter rates, or counter enhancing buffs.

Then one update, it just changed. Without notice, nothing in update notes, nothing from dev team. Wasn't listed in the known or resolved issues.

Currently, not only to you get hit by the counters, but you can't block the DMG from them. So MNK mobs get to completely bypass Ochain's defenses on counters. It's extremely annoying. Still pissed about it.

Submitted bug reports, but as usual, nothing. -.-

[Selindrile]

While honestly it wouldn't break the game or imbalance things much more....it would giving the best (generally speaking) DD a buff it doesn't really need, why spend dev time on it when that could be spent on buffing a job that actually needs it?

[Damane]

Before, When you proc'd a shield block on a counter, it would count as the counter missing. So the counter wouldn't fire at all and the PLD's hit would go through normally. This was very useful on mobs with high counter rates, or counter enhancing buffs.

Then one update, it just changed. Without notice, nothing in update notes, nothing from dev team. Wasn't listed in the known or resolved issues.

Currently, not only to you get hit by the counters, but you can't block the DMG from them. So MNK mobs get to completely bypass Ochain's defenses on counters. It's extremely annoying. Still pissed about it.

Submitted bug reports, but as usual, nothing. -.-

i wouldnt call this is a bug, this is how its suposed to work, your own attack is getting countered and caught you by surprise, hence you couldnt block it. Looks to me like intended and natural

[Martel]

Rather than making real life parallels, look at this from a game mechanics perspective. As this is, after all, a game.

You can evade a counter and prevent it. You can parry a counter, an prevent it. You can counter, a counter( <,<; ), and prevent it. I honestly dunno about guard. But if it doesn't prevent it, I'd bet you can at least reduce the dmg taken.

But all of a sudden, shield blocking is completely circumvented by counters. You can't prevent them, you can't reduce the dmg taken from them. This is now completely at odds with all other types of defensive skills. But working as intended? Really?

In the end, it's up to SE to say what's intended. But the problem here, is that they haven't said. SE has been much more open in recent years. Typically when a game mechanic is changed, we get informed of it. If nothing else, we'd get a known/resolved issue note about it. This? There was nothing. It just changed.

Interestingly, iirc, the issue made it's way to the main servers in the same update that introduced perfect counter... And the test server got it when they added PC there. Not that that's really much to go off of.

But anyway. The rest of the defensive skills still interact with counter(sans, maybe guard. someone go test.) And now shield doesn't, at all. Sounds like a glitch to me. But then, I may be slightly biased.

But hey, if SE doesn't consider Ochain broken in general I don't see what the problem is with letting counters be blockable again. It's really really niche.

[Camiie]

I'd rather see other jobs buffed rather than Mnk nerfed, (not that it needs TP from counter, yes, War gets it from retaliation, but it doesn't matter enough to matter)

But Retaliation isn't really the same as Counter, because the WAR actually takes the damage and then gets an extra attack as a result. MNK avoids the damage AND gets a free shot.


I don't feel like Mnk is overpowered for the content and roles it's used for, I feel like many other jobs that fufill similar roles and content are underpowered, but admittedly, it's a matter of perspective, comparing each job to the content, rather than against each other.

Yeah, I don't get the nerf mentality. I'd rather see the less powerful jobs brought forward instead of dragging the more powerful job backwards.

I think there was a study once where people played a game involving making money. The losers were offered a chance to pay whatever they had left to the house so that the house would take money from the winners. The losers would gain nothing from doing this. They chose to do it just to stick it to the winners. That sure sounds like the nerf mentality to me.

[Damane]

While honestly it wouldn't break the game or imbalance things much more....it would giving the best (generally speaking) DD a buff it doesn't really need, why spend dev time on it when that could be spent on buffing a job that actually needs it?

unless you give every other DD mantra + the same HP pool as MNK + formless strikes and up the base damage of their ilvl weapons, other jobs arent gonna get close to monk, which indirectly means it needs a nerf (because its really THAT good)

[Selindrile]

unless you give every other DD mantra + the same HP pool as MNK + formless strikes and up the base damage of their ilvl weapons, other jobs arent gonna get close to monk, which indirectly means it needs a nerf (because its really THAT good)

This is not true at all, obviously, while they won't and shouldn't do this, lets say they gave Sam a job ability that quadruples their damage for the next 5 minutes. Suddenly, you'd see Sams everywhere, because they'd do insane amounts of damage compared to everything else. If you can admit that this is the truth, then it's only about finding where the actual balance is for the buff needed.

There's plenty of other things they can do to even out job power levels without doing the things you listed, there are any number of solutions that could make less job disparity rather than nerfing monk. It's just a matter of balancing the result.

In my opinion Monk would be in need of a nerf if it made content too easy to complete. It does not, therefore, it is the other jobs that are in need of a buff instead, because they are far less desirable than monk. Some job disparity from event to event is alright, even desired, but, the way it is currently is not a healthy distribution.

[Damane]

This is not true at all, obviously, while they won't and shouldn't do this, lets say they gave Sam a job ability that quadruples their damage for the next 5 minutes. Suddenly, you'd see Sams everywhere, because they'd do insane amounts of damage compared to everything else. If you can admit that this is the truth, then it's only about finding where the actual balance is for the buff needed.

There's plenty of other things they can do to even out job power levels without doing the things you listed, there are any number of solutions that could make less job disparity rather than nerfing monk. It's just a matter of balancing the result.

In my opinion Monk would be in need of a nerf if it made content too easy to complete. It does not, therefore, it is the other jobs that are in need of a buff instead, because they are far less desirable than monk. Some job disparity from event to event is alright, even desired, but, the way it is currently is not a healthy distribution.

my line was more meant aline with: MNK has excellent damage and excellent survivability and excellent flexibility among the DD jobs, unless you give other DDs the same amount of survivability, flexibility and damage output (this can occur via other means) there is no way they will touch monk at all.

[Selindrile]

I don't know, it would definitely take some doing to bring other jobs onto par with monk, reducing universal delay would be the single easiest thing to implement that would improve balance I think (but admittedly it's not enough on it's own) But it would certainly help Blu/Dnc/Pup/Run/Drk/Thf/Nin/Drg/lolMeleeRdm.

But I can definitely envision any number of things that would not imbalance other jobs but allow them to be more desired but not overpowered.