Please put more focus on end game class balance

[Peepiopi]

This is one of the biggest concerns that a lot of us have about Final Fantasy XI right now.

First let me say, I feel like the recent changes over the last few months as far as enmity, and minor job adjustments have been steps in the right direction, but they are far too minor. There are still only a handful of jobs that get invitations to top tier encounters. It would be fantastic if there were class adjustments that are affective enough that open end game to all jobs.

In other words, I would love to see people shout for any "Tanks, Healers, Support, DD" Rather than specifics like "PLD, MNK, RNG, BRD, COR, WHM" etc..

Just as a couple examples: As long as Aegis and Ochain remain overpowered, then no other tanks will matter. I love playing Rune Fencer, but I'm basically relegated to soloing or lowmans because it's not as good as an Aegis/Ochain PLD. I also really like Puppetmaster, but my damage is murdered because of my pet constantly dying and the delays from slow job ability animations.

Boss evasion is absurdly high, and many DD jobs (especially pets) get annihilated by the damage. So you're only left with DD that can either survive the damage, or stay out of range of it.

It's stuff like this that really need to get fixed. The quality of life updates like the HP warps have been PURE WIN, but the game won't really feel fun unless we can actually be included in endgame while using our favorite jobs. I mean I'd say playing Rune Fencer and Puppetmaster feels like being picked last in gym class, but we're not even getting picked! ><

SIDE NOTE: Another complaint I have is with crafting and how it really creates a rather imposing barrier to end game progression for new players, but that's a topic for a different thread. I just wanted to mention it because I think class balance and old fashioned progress barriers are what are keeping this game from growing.

[Camiie]

They need to quit declaring a job "balanced" as long as it's somewhat effective at something/anything. "This job is good at farming Dynamis! What more to life is there?" If they want to do other stuff they can just level another job!" That seems to be their philosophy. Ideally they would treat each job as if each character could have only one job at 99. That's not to say that every job should be able to fulfill every sort of role, but each job should have something beneficial to offer within its general archetype. It shouldn't be so easy to decide which DD to take for example, or rather it shouldn't really matter. They should all get you to the same result even if they take a different path to get there (aka play differently). The devs and many players don't seem to want to wrap their heads around that concept of many paths, same result.

[Xantavia]

Unfortunately, I think this is a total pipe-dream, partly because of the player base. If the jobs aren't exactly equal, there will be those who want only the best, no matter how small the difference. If one job does 10,000 dmg over the length of the fight, but another job does 9990 dmg, they won't want the weaker job. I mean, that 10 point difference might make the battle last a minute longer. Seems people only care about having the quickest, safest, and easiest path to a win and don't even want to try something different.

[Camiie]

Yeah sadly some in the community take efficiency to the point of absurdity. And just as in a game of Telephone, the info that there is a slight DPS difference between jobs eventually morphs into that slightly weaker job becoming considered totally worthless under all conditions.

[Demonjustin]

Even if a job does more damage than another, at this point it can be completely ignored based on its history, I mean look at BLM, it's a perfect example. BLM was thought of as nothing more than a proc job for all of Abyssea and VW, SoA came along, nothing changed, they did the BLM updates, nothing changed, Yorcia Skirmish came out, and it took I think about 2~4 weeks before BLM actually became accepted, even though it was by far the best job in the game for that event. Till those few weeks in hardly anyone would even think to take BLM, I had a lot of parties turn me down for coming RDM or BLM to nuke mobs, telling me the job sucked and was too weak to bother bringing, and then a few weeks later, it was BLM or gtfo.

This new Skirmish is no different, and it's still in the 'BLM is worthless' phase of things, even though on most NMs it deals the same amount of DMG as any DD, with the only exceptions being Orthrus and Ironclad, and there are some NMs that it flat out crushes DDs on such as the Acuex, Grasshopper, or Behemoth.

The thing is, the English community at very least if not the general community as a whole, are very resistant to change be it good or bad, even if it's in their best interests or not, it's simply how we are. Even if tomorrow they removed JA delay entirely, PUP & DNC both became much more powerful jobs, PUP would be neck & neck with MNK if not beating it provided the PUP has Divinator, and yet, I doubt the general community would accept PUP as anything more than lolPUP for months to come. Balance is an issue, yes, but the community is an issue too, and in my opinion it's almost as bad, if not worse.

[Peepiopi]

All really good points. And you're right, the community has grown waaaay too picky over the years in regards to shouts. It's really a shame too, when you consider that the players online usually fluctuates around 500-1000 players (on odin). You'd think that people would be a little more open to inviting more available jobs rather than bottle-necking endgame through a handful of jobs. I think both players and SE have become too complacent with that, which is why I made this suggestion.

Though, if the jobs were balanced, then that will influence attitude change. The only ones that can convince people that there really are more than one tank or healer job would be SE, but they need to really commit to balancing the jobs and bosses so that each job can viably fill their job's general role (tank,dps,heal,support) and win those fights.

[Feary]

The Game is Balanced to not be Evenly balance, every jobs has a niche and that is the balance.

how we choose to use that is our own right. like the example above, every job in this has had its time to shine in relevant content at some point.

Very rarely does S.E step in and force players hands. one example i can think of is WHM.

Once upon a time, whm wasnt getting the healer role in parties. this is the job niche/purpose/reason its there. so s.e gave it a nice overhaul with JAs like solace for curing, spells like Cure 6 sacrifice and excess to best Cure potecy and casting time.

Pushed RDM to second class healer, not giving them cure 5, however they gave them ALOT of Cure pot. which at the time was unheard of at time.

im sure S.E has a chart with category roles and each job has a priority list. this list is maintained as game Balance. which is why rdm are unique hybrids mages with fastcast and enfeebles, why bst and pup are way better solo jobs, PLD as brick walls, and DD who all differ.

some jobs are easier to excel at then others which translates to player skill and their effort to be above average on their jobs. when players achieve their gear and appropriate game skill level, most jobs are can give each other a run for their money.

however what you asking would literally break the game and the philosophy of the final fantasy franchise.

[Sfchakan]

RUN is a novelty job and will never be considered a tank in it's current state. It is quite obviously not an acceptable tank for anything serious just from looking at it on paper. You made the choice to level and gear it for whatever reason, hoping to use it as a tank to... everything? Anything? There are no encounters currently where it excels at anything more than being a support job in the game. This is not the fault of other jobs being "overpowered," but the using the job simply being kind of silly. It's my perspective that the job needs a complete overhaul in order to be an effective tank or even support tank.

If you want to tank all content, then level various jobs that can tank (PLD, WAR, NIN, MNK) and gear them instead of whining. Aegis take a couple of months work, Ochain can be done by a PUP in short time if you're focused, I'm sure.

But, hey, we can all cry for nerfs, I guess! Surely, that's the best way to balance the game instead of simply making yourself available to fill what the task at hands needs!

I think RUN is overpowered because it has UNPARALLELED access to Runes that other jobs do not. Please make PLD, WAR, NIN and MNK just as good at using Runes and Big, Shiny swords as RUN, Square!

[Camiie]

The Game is Balanced to not be Evenly balance, every jobs has a niche and that is the balance.

Killing Easy Prey or Too Weak mobs slightly more effectively than others is not a valid niche.


how we choose to use that is our own right. like the example above, every job in this has had its time to shine in relevant content at some point.

Even if that were true, that's a piss poor way to define balance. "Oh your job was good 3 years ago, so take a few years off and we'll get back to you eventually."


im sure S.E has a chart with category roles and each job has a priority list. this list is maintained as game Balance. which is why rdm are unique hybrids mages with fastcast and enfeebles, why bst and pup are way better solo jobs, PLD as brick walls, and DD who all differ.

What does any of that have to do with balance? Categorizing jobs is not balance. Making sure they are competitive within their defined archetypes in endgame group content is balance. If a job is categorized as a tank but it can't serve that purpose in any way shape or form in a group setting then the devs have failed at balance.


some jobs are easier to excel at then others which translates to player skill and their effort to be above average on their jobs. when players achieve their gear and appropriate game skill level, most jobs are can give each other a run for their money.

Oh, you're using this tired argument? Complete and total B.S. There are now and always have been jobs that when geared and played as well as possible still fall behind other jobs even when those other jobs are totally half-assed.


however what you asking would literally break the game and the philosophy of the final fantasy franchise.

Then break it. Smash it wide open. I'll take fun and freedom over some short-sighted, limited philosophy. It's not 1987 anymore.

[FaeQueenCory]

I don't think Ochain and Aegis are overpowered.... they are "epic" weapons that do exactly what they were designed to do: mitigate physical and magical damage respectively.
This is perfectly in line with PLD, because PLD is the "classic" tank. A "classic" tank is one who mitigates damage, by taking 0 damage.
It's one of the 3 tank archetypes: classic, meat and blink. (classic = never damaged, meat = constant damage but constant healing, and blink = ... well... blinking the damage away.)

PLD is could also be considered a meat tank... but an ideally geared pld will be taking 0 dmg.
(even a non ideally geared one can do that too)

The problem specifically with RUN is twofold: (mind you this is with respect to RUN being an inverse PLD: major magic classic tanking, good-to-major phys tanking)
1) Greatsword.

Without shields... RUN's way to mitigate damage is purely by -DT gear and parry... for physical damage only anyways.... I think anyone who's actually played RUN can agree that it can tank magic damage ungodly well. (Though only for 1 element at a time... so... meh.)
-PDT caps at -50%, and Parry rate caps at 20%... meaning 80% of attacks on average will be unparried...
And RUN has no way to bypass this cap, as PLD does: Ochain's shield blocking and Burtang
However, this is very easy to be rectified.
And the key is RUN's fake-mythic...
Which not only have to be the equivalent to Burtang in terms of benefit... but also be the equivalent to Aegis and Ochain... at the same time.
Here is the current Burtang:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/b/bd/Burtgang_%28Level_119%29_description.png
And here's the current shields:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/8/87/Aegis_%28Level_99%29_description.pnghttp://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/b/bc/Ochain_%28Level_99%29_description.png
Let's ignore the iLv stats and just focus on the augments.
RUN's fake mythic will need to have some amount of -PDT that is comparable to the -18% Burtang gives PLDs. I would vote for at least an even -20%... namely because RUN's -DT stats seem to... be 2/3rds the values PLDs get... Yet SE wants these two jobs to be interchangeable and equal? .... smh

And while having it have a hard -DT that bypasses the cap would be better than just -PDT... It would never happen, but more importantly, RUN doesn't need the -MDT. It REALLY doesn't... NMs that would 1shot pretty much every job... even PLDs with Aegis... RUN laughs at... From my own experience... their super-ultra-mega-death moves... don't even break my SS... (again, single element tanking god = RUN)


Enmity is nice and all... but Kaquljaan has taught me that MAB is a stat that MAJORLY boosts RUN's tanking ability... I would argue more so than +Enmity would because RUN doesn't maintain hate via cures and holding gained hate like a PLD does... it maintains hate from the constant additional hate massive damages from GSs give. So instead of a +enmity term, I would rather see a +MAB term... it doesn't even have to be very big either. Tunglmyrkvi agrees that it wouldn't even have to be greater than a piddly +10 thanks to the base damage a 119 GS would have.


As stated in the previous bullet, RUN doesn't hold hate, it constantly generates more hate, so a buff like "reduce enmity loss from taking damage" is... just kinda meh on RUN... sure, it's helpful... kinda... but the sheer damage GSs afford RUN make it kinda... unnecessary. +enmity is better for RUN tanking than "reduces enmity loss from taking damage".

And now we come to the shield's part in this GS. It's actually not the stats from Aegis and Ochain that need to be equivalently realized in RUN's fake mythic... it's their hidden effect: increases block rate, not applied to the 65% block rate cap. While Aegis' hidden buff is less substantial than Ochain's is (iirc) it's still there. And the RUN mythic would need a similar damage mitigating hidden effect on it... however... this effect would have to be MASSIVE compared to the rate increase from even Ochain... and this is because the Parry cap is 20%. Shields can block 65% of your attacks, but you can only parry 20% of your attacks. Either they need to give RUN a JT that lets it increase the parry rate to 65%, just wholesale increase the parry cap (never happen), or have RUN's fake mythic's hidden parry buff (as that is RUN's shield skill) be the equivalent to Ochain's +35% buff: in other words, +80% parry rate, bypasses cap. (IMO, the best route would be JT boost to 65% and then +35% like Ochain on the fake mythic)


I know I said the stats on the shields aren't relevant/needed... but I kinda lied... sorta. "convert damage to MP"... SO GOOD for PLD... and SO GOOD for RUN too. It would not be bad if the fake mythic came with that ability in lieu of "reduces enmity loss from taking damage"... in fact, RUN kinda loves that effect far more than PLD ever will... which brings us to:

2) Refresh

Now I know what most people are thinking "RUN already has refresh?" and it does indeed....
But anyone who's ever used any body piece that isn't RUN's RF1... knows how much RUN hemorrhages MP.
If it weren't for things like Ethereal Earring and Flume Belt... RUN wouldn't be able to function at all.... and even then, those are more a bandaid rather than a real serviceable thing.

RUN needs its auto-refresh.
Just as PLD does.... and speaking of PLD, let's look at the two reasons why PLDs have little to no MP problems while RUN has 0 MP all the time:

Auto-Refresh JT: The current state of RUN at 99 is what PLD is before lv35. The MOMENT a PLD hits 35, all their MP issues fly out the window until the reach 75... and even then, it just becomes something that has to be thought about slightly... And once at 75, it ceases to be a problem because:
Chivalry: This merit ability alone could make PLD not need refresh gear. Shield Mastery + Ochain + Chivalry = infinite MP. And then you have 1MP/tic happening all the while on top of all that. And you don't even need Ochain for it either, it just makes PLD's MP even LESS of an issue.

It's really shocking how much RUN needs that 2MP/tic from the RF1 body piece... and I feel that it could even get by with 1MP/tic too... the 2MP is just more of a good thing.

And the reason for why RUN eats away it's MP like crazy is because of how it mitigates damage: through the constant reapplication of various enhancing magics.
That 22mp adds up VERY quickly.

And while I see what they did with Vivacious Pulse... It's very clear, at least to me, that it's intended to be the equivalent to PLD's Chivalry...
But... it requires dark runes to restore MP....
And as we all know... RUN tanks a single element of magic... meaning: if you're not fighting a light enemy where dark runes will reduce its light damage to nothing... you no longer have the ability to restore your MP. At least not without loosing your magical damage protection... as well as the demand to change all your runes... not once, but twice...
just to restore a little MP....
As a famous black woman once said:
Ain't nobody got time for that!
So basically.... Vivacious Pulse is much like any RUN JSE that has -PDT... "it's like PLD's ability/gear... just at 2/3 the usefulness/worth/value/goodness."


If they adjust what I have outlined here... Then RUN really can be interchangeable (mostly) with PLD, as is their constant refrain telling us that that's their wish.

Make the fake mythic have abilities in line with what I said here... (what I would do is: -20%PDT, overcap; +10~15MAB; "enhances rune enhancement effect"; hidden:+35~80% overcap parry rate... the rune enchantment effect lets you hold 1 more rune... cause mythics do that sort of thing... and it might ease up on the need to change all three runes to dark to get some mp back.)
And make the empyrean body have both 1-2MP/tic refresh AND at least -8%PDT... Why does PLD's relic body clock out 9% of all damage... but RUN's fake relic body only nulls 6%? These are not equal things... if anything RUN's gear should have MORE -PDT than PLD's on account of PLD's gear all has much higher DEF... plus shields.

EDIT: Oops. Forgot to point out, "bluh bluh bluh I don't want to have to make a mythic to be good bluh bluh bluh"... well if the fake relic set is any indication... RUN's fake mythic is gonna be so easily obtained... it could hardly be called "mythic".

[Selindrile]

Feary/Sfchakan, I'm astonished by where you come down on this topic, I don't think I've ever heard someone come down on the side of "Whelp you picked a crappy job to enjoy, now you don't get to enjoy things as much as other people."

Asking for jobs to be buffed so that they'll be desired more does nothing to "break the philosophy of FFXI" in and of itself, but even if they did so in their quest for a more balanced, inclusive playing field, it would easily be worth the loss.

They didn't intend Run to be as useless as it is, they probably don't even think it actually is, because they seem to play the game in a vacuum. "Novelty jobs" aren't in the design philosophy either.

[Sfchakan]

Asking for a job to be buffed is one thing, asking for nerfs to another is... another. Every thread about RUN whines about how OP PLD is and how no one wants another tank for super serious content. Aegis and Ochain need to be nerfed. Wah, wah, wah.

Other jobs aren't overpowered, RUN is underpowered. It won't ever excel in it's current state at anything. RUN is the job that needs to be adjusted and that's the point that needs to be hammered home to Square.

[Tennotsukai]

I know people are always going to want their favorite jobs to events, but if SE focused a lot more on end game job balance I bet other jobs would be up for debate...instead of the flat out "no!"

[Peepiopi]

Asking for a job to be buffed is one thing, asking for nerfs to another is... another. Every thread about RUN whines about how OP PLD is and how no one wants another tank for super serious content. Aegis and Ochain need to be nerfed. Wah, wah, wah.

Other jobs aren't overpowered, RUN is underpowered. It won't ever excel in it's current state at anything. RUN is the job that needs to be adjusted and that's the point that needs to be hammered home to Square.

I'm only using Rune Fencers as one example, but overall it looks like you essentially agree with my point. You could make the argument that Rune Fencers are underpowered, and you can make the argument that Paladins are overpowered. Either way, Paladins are the only tank job that gets invitations to endgame events, so that means endgame isn't balanced for tanks. But this isn't a Rune Fencer vs. Paladin Discussion, because what is left out of that discussion are other tanks like Ninjas, or other jobs that can fill that role.

The balance issues also include DD and support jobs as well, and I think that's something that we can all agree on. If a handful of jobs monopolize endgame content when there are 22 to choose from, then there are endgame balance issues worth addressing. No one here is whining, so the rude comments aren't really necessary.

[Demonjustin]

When it comes to balance, provided the player base magically changed its opinion on jobs and the slate were wiped clean so that lolPUP wasn't a think for instance, and we could all look at the jobs objectively rather than through the scope of having seen and been told for years that a job is horrible, a few things would easily fix up a few jobs.



Completely remove JA delay.

-This fixes a few things, mainly DNC & PUP would become much more powerful and worthwhile jobs without the 2 second forced delay screwing us constantly. This would also improve RUN since it relies on Runes and they are tied to the same exact issue. I think this speaks for itself though, not much need to get into details, I'm sure anyone who plays these jobs understand the underlying issue that JA delay creates.



Completely remove spell delay.

-By this I mean remove the time after finishing the cast of a spell that spells can't be cast, abilities can't be used, players can't WS, and we can't attack. Removing this makes BLM, SCH, WHM, NIN, basically any job with spells of any kind would benefit, but the most important ones are BLM, NIN, and RDM in my opinion.

-BLM's damage is tied directly to how fast they are casting, by removing the delay after a cast a BLM can also more quickly Enmity Douse to remove hate, they can more quickly Manawall to save themselves, or they can more quickly cast another spell which leads to a higher overall damage, and thus, greater use.

-NIN's greatest advantage comes from Shadows and thus any way of cutting down on their spells hindering their damage would be an asset.

-RDM has enough problems with meleeing as it is, but one of the largest when it comes to melee is the fact it must actively cast spells otherwise it is no different than another DD except that it's weaker, now if this delay were removed a RDM's Fast Cast could play an integral part in speeding up a RDM's activities on the frontlines when it comes to magic. By allowing a meleeing RDM to maintain their damage as well as support capabilities with a much lower loss to their overall damage spells would be cast quickly and take a much smaller tole on damage, it might just make meleeing a bit more viable for the job. This would also help RDMs prep for battle more quickly, as any RDM who melees can tell you, buffs are one of our slowest things we have to do and they are very vital to our performance on the battlefield, buffing normally is very slow and a big part of that is this delay, removing it would cut down our buff time from what is around 25 seconds, to more like 10 seconds. Overall, removing this might finally give meleeing RDMs a bit more of a niche use than they have now when it comes to melee, or in general, since a RDM is supposed to multitask all sorts of things but this delay slows them down a ton.

[Selindrile]

Asking for a job to be buffed is one thing, asking for nerfs to another is... another. Every thread about RUN whines about how OP PLD is and how no one wants another tank for super serious content. Aegis and Ochain need to be nerfed. Wah, wah, wah.

Other jobs aren't overpowered, RUN is underpowered. It won't ever excel in it's current state at anything. RUN is the job that needs to be adjusted and that's the point that needs to be hammered home to Square.

While I have seen plenty of (justifiable) RUN whining threads, I've seen very few asking Aegis/Ochain to be nerfed, they're complaining that they can't compete with, well, what's supposed to be their competition for the tank slot on, well, anything. I own an Ochain, and am debating building an Aegis, I hope they don't get nerfed, in fact I hope they make the trials easier so one day I'll bring Ochain past 90. But I also have a 99 Run, and yeah, Run that I enjoy the thought of being able to play in content one day, and it needs one Hell of a buff to be used for anything relevant these days.

Also your last post didn't say "Don't nerf PLD (which nobody called for) RUN needs to be buffed (duh)", it said "Enjoy your useless novelty. Changing it to be competitive with Pld would break the philosophy of FFXI."

And if you're going to comment about them saying Aegis/Ochain are "overpowered", they are in comparison to other options, and considering the difficulty of obtaining them compared to Other Shield Options, they should be. But the fact that they exist shouldn't make Run not playable. (Though for what it's worth, Pld with Killedar/Beatific still is more useful than a Run could ever think about being on any tank-requiring content.) That's just a testament to how much of a buff Run needs, not that one needs to nerf Ochain/Aegis.

[Feary]

Killing Easy Prey or Too Weak mobs slightly more effectively than others is not a valid niche.



Even if that were true, that's a piss poor way to define balance. "Oh your job was good 3 years ago, so take a few years off and we'll get back to you eventually."



What does any of that have to do with balance? Categorizing jobs is not balance. Making sure they are competitive within their defined archetypes in endgame group content is balance. If a job is categorized as a tank but it can't serve that purpose in any way shape or form in a group setting then the devs have failed at balance.



Oh, you're using this tired argument? Complete and total B.S. There are now and always have been jobs that when geared and played as well as possible still fall behind other jobs even when those other jobs are totally half-assed.



Then break it. Smash it wide open. I'll take fun and freedom over some short-sighted, limited philosophy. It's not 1987 anymore.


again like i said. you are all looking at this game wrong. this is why you are always unhappy and dont understand what S.E is doing.

in fact, from your perspective this is the tired argument. its ignorant.

you are basing the definition of "balance" on your opinion of what game balance is. when you define it by your own logic and its never align on how Developers think. this is why you are never satisfied.

you have to look at this from the actions/responses of S.E over the past decade and not the perspective of the player base. you have only proven that the playerbase does not care about balance, nor do they understand it.

i mean really, "break the game we dont live in 1987". lol that is the most asinine thing ive heard. the game has already broken because s.e has given in to these foolish perspectives and demands.

Imo, this is why JPs playerbase seems to be favored, they have always had a better understanding of the game and how/what to ask for. they have actually listen and provide decent feedback. Not whine like a petulant teenagers.

this is so a mute point. as much as i would like my non mnk jobs to do better damage. like giveing thf most offensive abilities. however, i know the culture of final fantasy and can appreciate it for what it is.

[Selindrile]

At this point I have no clue what you're on about, I'm happy with the direction FFXI has taken overall, I have gripes, sure, because nothing is ever perfect, but that doesn't mean as a group we shouldn't strive towards improving things for the majority of people.

The JP playerbase is favored because the dev's native language is Japanese, how in the world could you come to any other ridiculous conclusion.

I've been watching SE's responses over the past decade, and amazingly over the past few months, they're actually doing things they've never done before and making honest to goodness improvements that most people have enjoyed lately, so we're proposing more, go figure, right?

Everyone's basing balance on their own view of the situation, it would be a pretty alien thought to start from someone else's, but some of us at least speak for a general consensus of the NA speaking community, you are not one of these people. We define the logic of balance by the desires of ourselves and the people we deal with/read about, we then try to sway the devs who seem to play the game without taking the community into account when dealing with balance, and as of late, they've actually been kinda listening.

Once again, you are completely re-wording and straw manning arguments, neither Camiie nor I ever said "break the game", we said "break that outmoded design philosophy of if a job is good in one event, it doesn't need to be any good in others", because all events are not equal, a job that happens to be good at soloing dynamis isn't enough anymore, nor was it ever, really, but today we might actually have a dev team progressive enough to listen.

[Peepiopi]

The Game is Balanced to not be Evenly balance, every jobs has a niche and that is the balance.


you have to look at this from the actions/responses of S.E over the past decade and not the perspective of the player base. you have only proven that the playerbase does not care about balance, nor do they understand it.


Feary, you have the strangest idea of class balance that I've ever seen lol. I honestly think you're being sarcastic at this point. Let's say your right though. What you're implying is that SE's goal is to create new game content and boss encounters where only a few classes are viable at endgame at a time, while the rest should be happy with being relegated to minor roles soloing older content, because that's their "niche". The perspective of the player base doesn't matter, because picking the "right" job for endgame is all part of the strategy.

If that's truly the case, then you basically mean that SE is content with alienating the rest of the players who's favorite jobs are now excluded from being able to participate in endgame content, since it's not their "niche".

I really find that hard to believe, because if that were truly the case, then why do you think they bothered releasing ilvl119 gear for all the jobs? I mean, since only about 6 or 7 of them are going to really need them in the end.

Your idea of class balance is basically the formula for what makes an mmo lose subscribers. Stick to the original class concept regardless of it works in your latest game content or not. Hey you might be content with that, but a bunch of other people aren't, and I'm sure that SE isn't content with watching their game continue to shrink. That's why we're leaving this feedback or.. "whining" as you like to put it, because more than any other time in the past, I get the feeling that this development team is more focused on moving forward with the game and finding success with FFXI again, rather than watching it go down like a sinking ship.

[Damane]

Unfortunately, I think this is a total pipe-dream, partly because of the player base. If the jobs aren't exactly equal, there will be those who want only the best, no matter how small the difference. If one job does 10,000 dmg over the length of the fight, but another job does 9990 dmg, they won't want the weaker job. I mean, that 10 point difference might make the battle last a minute longer. Seems people only care about having the quickest, safest, and easiest path to a win and don't even want to try something different.

its difficult yes, but its not impossible. I agree with the OP some things need nerfing and some things need to go away:

Things that need to go away:
- BRD COR rotations, make it so buffs wear instantly off when going out of PT
- Pets takeing insane amounts of damage, I can understand their concern of makeing Pet Jobs too OP with this, being able to solo things: simple fix, transfer half of pets enmity allways to the master, for every action/dmg the pet does. But let the pet survive seriously...
- Allow Pets to recieve buffs
- Give RDM and SCH cure V, allow Temper, Gain and barspells to be cast on other PT members, make Adloqium of SCH more potent scaleing with enhancing skill to 5 Regain/Tic, up RDMs magic skill grades a bit, give RDM a unique Fastcast spell that enhances FastCast. There 3 Healer with different buffs and specialities to offer.
- Reduce bloodpacts recast maximum to 15 sec, while makeing so that pet damage/enmity is transfered half over to SMN. More dynamic and damaging job
- up magic damage to be even more competetiv then melee damage
- Remove JA delay
- Nerf Aegis , ESPECIALLY AEGIS
- Equalize BRD COR GEO: Give COR and GEOS haste rolls/geospells and a scherzo roll/geospell, have luopans not die fast, make indispells castable to other PT members, make luopans able to follow PT members.

I am sure the list would go on, thats what jumped my mind first

[Camiie]

again like i said. you are all looking at this game wrong. this is why you are always unhappy and dont understand what S.E is doing.

You're right. I can't possibly comprehend the genius of treating entire jobs as though they are no more than highly situational pieces of gear. I can't comprehend the genius of taking a huge selling point of the game, the classic FF jobs that define the franchise, and reducing those jobs to useless window dressing. I can't comprehend the genius of disappointing longtime fans of the franchise who wanted to create their own character in the image of one of their favorites. I absolutely don't get it at all, so please explain to me the advantages of this brilliant strategy.

[AppropriateName5786]

You're right. I can't possibly comprehend the genius of treating entire jobs as though they are no more than highly situational pieces of gear. I can't comprehend the genius of taking a huge selling point of the game, the classic FF jobs that define the franchise, and reducing those jobs to useless window dressing. I can't comprehend the genius of disappointing longtime fans of the franchise who wanted to create their own character in the image of one of their favorites. I absolutely don't get it at all, so please explain to me the advantages of this brilliant strategy.

Your patience is commendable. I would have given up long ago with these people.

[Olor]

Signed. BST and BLU are my two favourite jobs. They have never been favoured outside of very niche things. I like and leveled bard too - but now I can't even use that either since the expectation is 3-4 songs or GTFO.

Glad to hear they are making a 3 song instrument that is easier to obtain than D.harp... cause would be nice if I could think about bothering with BRD again.

[Ritsuka]

I don't think Ochain and Aegis are overpowered.... they are "epic" weapons that do exactly what they were designed to do: mitigate physical and magical damage respectively.
This is perfectly in line with PLD, because PLD is the "classic" tank. A "classic" tank is one who mitigates damage, by taking 0 damage.
It's one of the 3 tank archetypes: classic, meat and blink. (classic = never damaged, meat = constant damage but constant healing, and blink = ... well... blinking the damage away.)

PLD is could also be considered a meat tank... but an ideally geared pld will be taking 0 dmg.
(even a non ideally geared one can do that too)

The problem specifically with RUN is twofold: (mind you this is with respect to RUN being an inverse PLD: major magic classic tanking, good-to-major phys tanking)
1) Greatsword.

Without shields... RUN's way to mitigate damage is purely by -DT gear and parry... for physical damage only anyways.... I think anyone who's actually played RUN can agree that it can tank magic damage ungodly well. (Though only for 1 element at a time... so... meh.)
-PDT caps at -50%, and Parry rate caps at 20%... meaning 80% of attacks on average will be unparried...
And RUN has no way to bypass this cap, as PLD does: Ochain's shield blocking and Burtang
However, this is very easy to be rectified.
And the key is RUN's fake-mythic...
Which not only have to be the equivalent to Burtang in terms of benefit... but also be the equivalent to Aegis and Ochain... at the same time.
Here is the current Burtang:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/b/bd/Burtgang_%28Level_119%29_description.png
And here's the current shields:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/8/87/Aegis_%28Level_99%29_description.pnghttp://wiki.bluegartr.com/images/b/bc/Ochain_%28Level_99%29_description.png
Let's ignore the iLv stats and just focus on the augments.
RUN's fake mythic will need to have some amount of -PDT that is comparable to the -18% Burtang gives PLDs. I would vote for at least an even -20%... namely because RUN's -DT stats seem to... be 2/3rds the values PLDs get... Yet SE wants these two jobs to be interchangeable and equal? .... smh

And while having it have a hard -DT that bypasses the cap would be better than just -PDT... It would never happen, but more importantly, RUN doesn't need the -MDT. It REALLY doesn't... NMs that would 1shot pretty much every job... even PLDs with Aegis... RUN laughs at... From my own experience... their super-ultra-mega-death moves... don't even break my SS... (again, single element tanking god = RUN)


Enmity is nice and all... but Kaquljaan has taught me that MAB is a stat that MAJORLY boosts RUN's tanking ability... I would argue more so than +Enmity would because RUN doesn't maintain hate via cures and holding gained hate like a PLD does... it maintains hate from the constant additional hate massive damages from GSs give. So instead of a +enmity term, I would rather see a +MAB term... it doesn't even have to be very big either. Tunglmyrkvi agrees that it wouldn't even have to be greater than a piddly +10 thanks to the base damage a 119 GS would have.


As stated in the previous bullet, RUN doesn't hold hate, it constantly generates more hate, so a buff like "reduce enmity loss from taking damage" is... just kinda meh on RUN... sure, it's helpful... kinda... but the sheer damage GSs afford RUN make it kinda... unnecessary. +enmity is better for RUN tanking than "reduces enmity loss from taking damage".

And now we come to the shield's part in this GS. It's actually not the stats from Aegis and Ochain that need to be equivalently realized in RUN's fake mythic... it's their hidden effect: increases block rate, not applied to the 65% block rate cap. While Aegis' hidden buff is less substantial than Ochain's is (iirc) it's still there. And the RUN mythic would need a similar damage mitigating hidden effect on it... however... this effect would have to be MASSIVE compared to the rate increase from even Ochain... and this is because the Parry cap is 20%. Shields can block 65% of your attacks, but you can only parry 20% of your attacks. Either they need to give RUN a JT that lets it increase the parry rate to 65%, just wholesale increase the parry cap (never happen), or have RUN's fake mythic's hidden parry buff (as that is RUN's shield skill) be the equivalent to Ochain's +35% buff: in other words, +80% parry rate, bypasses cap. (IMO, the best route would be JT boost to 65% and then +35% like Ochain on the fake mythic)


I know I said the stats on the shields aren't relevant/needed... but I kinda lied... sorta. "convert damage to MP"... SO GOOD for PLD... and SO GOOD for RUN too. It would not be bad if the fake mythic came with that ability in lieu of "reduces enmity loss from taking damage"... in fact, RUN kinda loves that effect far more than PLD ever will... which brings us to:

2) Refresh

Now I know what most people are thinking "RUN already has refresh?" and it does indeed....
But anyone who's ever used any body piece that isn't RUN's RF1... knows how much RUN hemorrhages MP.
If it weren't for things like Ethereal Earring and Flume Belt... RUN wouldn't be able to function at all.... and even then, those are more a bandaid rather than a real serviceable thing.

RUN needs its auto-refresh.
Just as PLD does.... and speaking of PLD, let's look at the two reasons why PLDs have little to no MP problems while RUN has 0 MP all the time:

Auto-Refresh JT: The current state of RUN at 99 is what PLD is before lv35. The MOMENT a PLD hits 35, all their MP issues fly out the window until the reach 75... and even then, it just becomes something that has to be thought about slightly... And once at 75, it ceases to be a problem because:
Chivalry: This merit ability alone could make PLD not need refresh gear. Shield Mastery + Ochain + Chivalry = infinite MP. And then you have 1MP/tic happening all the while on top of all that. And you don't even need Ochain for it either, it just makes PLD's MP even LESS of an issue.

It's really shocking how much RUN needs that 2MP/tic from the RF1 body piece... and I feel that it could even get by with 1MP/tic too... the 2MP is just more of a good thing.

And the reason for why RUN eats away it's MP like crazy is because of how it mitigates damage: through the constant reapplication of various enhancing magics.
That 22mp adds up VERY quickly.

And while I see what they did with Vivacious Pulse... It's very clear, at least to me, that it's intended to be the equivalent to PLD's Chivalry...
But... it requires dark runes to restore MP....
And as we all know... RUN tanks a single element of magic... meaning: if you're not fighting a light enemy where dark runes will reduce its light damage to nothing... you no longer have the ability to restore your MP. At least not without loosing your magical damage protection... as well as the demand to change all your runes... not once, but twice...
just to restore a little MP....
As a famous black woman once said:
So basically.... Vivacious Pulse is much like any RUN JSE that has -PDT... "it's like PLD's ability/gear... just at 2/3 the usefulness/worth/value/goodness."


If they adjust what I have outlined here... Then RUN really can be interchangeable (mostly) with PLD, as is their constant refrain telling us that that's their wish.

Make the fake mythic have abilities in line with what I said here... (what I would do is: -20%PDT, overcap; +10~15MAB; "enhances rune enhancement effect"; hidden:+35~80% overcap parry rate... the rune enchantment effect lets you hold 1 more rune... cause mythics do that sort of thing... and it might ease up on the need to change all three runes to dark to get some mp back.)
And make the empyrean body have both 1-2MP/tic refresh AND at least -8%PDT... Why does PLD's relic body clock out 9% of all damage... but RUN's fake relic body only nulls 6%? These are not equal things... if anything RUN's gear should have MORE -PDT than PLD's on account of PLD's gear all has much higher DEF... plus shields.

EDIT: Oops. Forgot to point out, "bluh bluh bluh I don't want to have to make a mythic to be good bluh bluh bluh"... well if the fake relic set is any indication... RUN's fake mythic is gonna be so easily obtained... it could hardly be called "mythic".


Rune hasn't even been out a year yet its still pretty new and nobody knows what it can truely do yet. Give it more time it be one year tho sometime this month tho ^^

[Ravenmore]

its difficult yes, but its not impossible. I agree with the OP some things need nerfing and some things need to go away:

Things that need to go away:
- BRD COR rotations, make it so buffs wear instantly off when going out of PT
- Pets takeing insane amounts of damage, I can understand their concern of makeing Pet Jobs too OP with this, being able to solo things: simple fix, transfer half of pets enmity allways to the master, for every action/dmg the pet does. But let the pet survive seriously...
- Allow Pets to recieve buffs
- Give RDM and SCH cure V, allow Temper, Gain and barspells to be cast on other PT members, make Adloqium of SCH more potent scaleing with enhancing skill to 5 Regain/Tic, up RDMs magic skill grades a bit, give RDM a unique Fastcast spell that enhances FastCast. There 3 Healer with different buffs and specialities to offer.
- Reduce bloodpacts recast maximum to 15 sec, while makeing so that pet damage/enmity is transfered half over to SMN. More dynamic and damaging job
- up magic damage to be even more competetiv then melee damage
- Remove JA delay
- Nerf Aegis , ESPECIALLY AEGIS
- Equalize BRD COR GEO: Give COR and GEOS haste rolls/geospells and a scherzo roll/geospell, have luopans not die fast, make indispells castable to other PT members, make luopans able to follow PT members.

I am sure the list would go on, thats what jumped my mind first


The no brd rotations would kill off 2 song brd totally. Right now you can get away with one 2 song brd in a alliance or even two of them if you have a good LS but take away the rotations the demand for the 4 song brds will increase. The rest of your post solves nothing as well or would make things worse for other jobs again not fixing the core issue.

[Tennotsukai]

Wow, a nerf I actually agree with...getting rid of brd rotations.

[Damane]

The no brd rotations would kill off 2 song brd totally. Right now you can get away with one 2 song brd in a alliance or even two of them if you have a good LS but take away the rotations the demand for the 4 song brds will increase. The rest of your post solves nothing as well or would make things worse for other jobs again not fixing the core issue.

brd/cor rotation nerf would actually fix more. 2 song bards allready dont get accepted, so the nerf wouldnt change anything at all, it actually would help people to think outside of the box and maybe incorporate other jobs in their setup. Because you know you can buff a ally indirectly by debuffing the mob with other jobs. Thf has feint, DNCs has steps, Angon etc. Blu debuffs, list goes on.

And you stated not why the rest of my post would make things worse. I would rather have some enmity as a pet job, but be able to keep my pet alive and buffed and thus makeing it possible to contribute to some harder fights stuff.

[Kincard]

Unfortunately, I think this is a total pipe-dream, partly because of the player base. If the jobs aren't exactly equal, there will be those who want only the best, no matter how small the difference. If one job does 10,000 dmg over the length of the fight, but another job does 9990 dmg, they won't want the weaker job. I mean, that 10 point difference might make the battle last a minute longer. Seems people only care about having the quickest, safest, and easiest path to a win and don't even want to try something different.


Yeah sadly some in the community take efficiency to the point of absurdity. And just as in a game of Telephone, the info that there is a slight DPS difference between jobs eventually morphs into that slightly weaker job becoming considered totally worthless under all conditions.

There is already an objective way of measuring job performance, and classes that are considered total crap (THF, DNC, NIN, list goes on) simple deal less damage, and it's not a case of "oh it's only slightly less, we'll clear the content anyway"- a perfectly geared NIN is literally dealing like 60% of the damage a MNK is putting out. There's simply no way to argue against such an absurd gap.

It's true there will always be people obsessed with efficiency, but that's pretty exhaustive. The majority of people playing XIV don't care if you take whatever mixture of MNK, BLM, DRG, SMN, or BRD because you'll still be able to clear the content with more or less the same effort- FYI, BRDs do something like 15% less damage than the melee jobs do in that game right now (under ideal conditions). If FFXI had a Duty Finder, you know the dungeon would be abandoned the instant someone zoned in and saw a NIN tank, a THF DPS, or a SMN as sole support.

[Ravenmore]

brd/cor rotation nerf would actually fix more. 2 song bards allready dont get accepted, so the nerf wouldnt change anything at all, it actually would help people to think outside of the box and maybe incorporate other jobs in their setup. Because you know you can buff a ally indirectly by debuffing the mob with other jobs. Thf has feint, DNCs has steps, Angon etc. Blu debuffs, list goes on.

And you stated not why the rest of my post would make things worse. I would rather have some enmity as a pet job, but be able to keep my pet alive and buffed and thus makeing it possible to contribute to some harder fights stuff.

Blu debuffs suck and never stick on anything worth casting them on trust me been playing blu for years and giving up traits for crappy debuffs that either mobs are flat out immune too or you need ES to land is not worth it, dnc doesn't add enough dmg to 6 man or 18 man content to take with how it is now and everything dnc main offers that a party would want /dnc (haste samba even the weaken sub version) gets same with it's debuffs. Angon is ok but on any fight that dds have to go /nin the drgs gets the short end of the stick and taking another mnk or nin main would be better. The main reason to take a thf is TH, before they messed with feint merits it used to be a really nice debuff you could keep up full time now its not as useful, again TH is the sole reason to take a thf. Really if debuffing was effective you would see more of it but you don't cause mobs are immune or highly resistant.

[Camiie]

There is already an objective way of measuring job performance, and classes that are considered total crap (THF, DNC, NIN, list goes on) simple deal less damage, and it's not a case of "oh it's only slightly less, we'll clear the content anyway"- a perfectly geared NIN is literally dealing like 60% of the damage a MNK is putting out. There's simply no way to argue against such an absurd gap.

What about the DD that aren't MNK? Some are not nearly as far behind it as THF DNC and NIN are, yet they may as well be. It's all or nothing with some people. Get the best or just don't go, even if winning without the best is entirely possible.


It's true there will always be people obsessed with efficiency, but that's pretty exhaustive. The majority of people playing XIV don't care if you take whatever mixture of MNK, BLM, DRG, SMN, or BRD because you'll still be able to clear the content with more or less the same effort- FYI, BRDs do something like 15% less damage than the melee jobs do in that game right now (under ideal conditions). If FFXI had a Duty Finder, you know the dungeon would be abandoned the instant someone zoned in and saw a NIN tank, a THF DPS, or a SMN as sole support.


And this is what needs to change.

[Damane]

Blu debuffs suck and never stick on anything worth casting them on trust me been playing blu for years and giving up traits for crappy debuffs that either mobs are flat out immune too or you need ES to land is not worth it, dnc doesn't add enough dmg to 6 man or 18 man content to take with how it is now and everything dnc main offers that a party would want /dnc (haste samba even the weaken sub version) gets same with it's debuffs. Angon is ok but on any fight that dds have to go /nin the drgs gets the short end of the stick and taking another mnk or nin main would be better. The main reason to take a thf is TH, before they messed with feint merits it used to be a really nice debuff you could keep up full time now its not as useful, again TH is the sole reason to take a thf. Really if debuffing was effective you would see more of it but you don't cause mobs are immune or highly resistant.

debuffing isnt effective because the easier route for ally content is to go bard rotation, people take what they get once brd/cor rotation would get nerfed. trust me. And yes I know blu debuffs dont mostly stick, some however do. And the rotation nerf would give an incentiv to fix those blu debuffs without makeing the game broken.
Debuffing works, just noone does it, because rotation buffing requires less/no work and just a couple of mules. even if potent debuffs are 2/3 of the time up, they still would help alot.

[Inafking]

It's troubling how much SE ignores the job balance. Especially when the jobs that we're restricted to require unobtainable items.

[Peepiopi]

The no brd rotations would kill off 2 song brd totally. Right now you can get away with one 2 song brd in a alliance or even two of them if you have a good LS but take away the rotations the demand for the 4 song brds will increase. The rest of your post solves nothing as well or would make things worse for other jobs again not fixing the core issue.

This is kind of the overall problem that we're talking about. Bard rotations, while a "creative" way to maximize effectiveness, is sort of akin to gear switching, which is something the dev team has been trying to shy away from. Plus, I think we a lot of folks can agree that it would be awesome to not feel like they "needed" to do those rotations. But what if having more than 2 songs was one day considered to be more of a perk rather than a need?

The only reason why people are so dependent on 3+ song bards is because not much else quite matches up at the moment, because things aren't really well-balanced for endgame. I mean there are plenty of other jobs that could potentially fill the support role (blu, rdm, cor, geo, pup, smn, sch, etc...) Perhaps if Debuffs were a little more on par with Buffs, and Regen effects were a little more on par with cures, then we might be able to see a little bit less of a monopoly on the support role by White mages and bards.

[zataz]

hope they fix run for u people =D all i got to say is idc what they give it ill never invite one <,<

[Peepiopi]

hope they fix run for u people =D all i got to say is idc what they give it ill never invite one <,<

Fair enough?... I guess?

[Tennotsukai]

Blu debuffs suck and never stick on anything worth casting them on trust me been playing blu for years and giving up traits for crappy debuffs that either mobs are flat out immune too or you need ES to land is not worth it, dnc doesn't add enough dmg to 6 man or 18 man content to take with how it is now and everything dnc main offers that a party would want /dnc (haste samba even the weaken sub version) gets same with it's debuffs. Angon is ok but on any fight that dds have to go /nin the drgs gets the short end of the stick and taking another mnk or nin main would be better. The main reason to take a thf is TH, before they messed with feint merits it used to be a really nice debuff you could keep up full time now its not as useful, again TH is the sole reason to take a thf. Really if debuffing was effective you would see more of it but you don't cause mobs are immune or highly resistant.

Some truth to what you say here, Blu debuffs are not that reliable. Blu's debuffs stop landing after normal on AAs, yet their debuffs are okay on other content enemies from what I've noticed. On normal DMII, frightful roar and Bilgestorm are rather decent too. I wish Tourbillion would work...

Also, Drg can be pretty decent in AA if geared well...better than mnk perhaps, not rng though :(

I completely agree with everything, mostly, you say here though. I hope SE is paying attention to this thread.

[Tennotsukai]

I'd also like to say that I am soooo tired of Rng being the new shout job...pretty much took the place of Mnk. Bleh :(

[Feary]

Feary, you have the strangest idea of class balance that I've ever seen lol. I honestly think you're being sarcastic at this point. Let's say your right though. What you're implying is that SE's goal is to create new game content and boss encounters where only a few classes are viable at endgame at a time, while the rest should be happy with being relegated to minor roles soloing older content, because that's their "niche". The perspective of the player base doesn't matter, because picking the "right" job for endgame is all part of the strategy.

If that's truly the case, then you basically mean that SE is content with alienating the rest of the players who's favorite jobs are now excluded from being able to participate in endgame content, since it's not their "niche".

I really find that hard to believe, because if that were truly the case, then why do you think they bothered releasing ilvl119 gear for all the jobs? I mean, since only about 6 or 7 of them are going to really need them in the end.

Your idea of class balance is basically the formula for what makes an mmo lose subscribers. Stick to the original class concept regardless of it works in your latest game content or not. Hey you might be content with that, but a bunch of other people aren't, and I'm sure that SE isn't content with watching their game continue to shrink. That's why we're leaving this feedback or.. "whining" as you like to put it, because more than any other time in the past, I get the feeling that this development team is more focused on moving forward with the game and finding success with FFXI again, rather than watching it go down like a sinking ship.

lol strangest? well i guess since i am an anomaly. Since i have been subscribed from 2004 and still find this game content to be extremely fun and entertaining. Over the years. ive gained a different perspective, yes. I was strange when i wanted maat's cap (i had before abyssea was announced), i was strange when i farmed 10 empyreans and now im strange because i can understand what s.e means when they imply job balance. meh w.e im extereme i know this. however i just dont understand why ppl cant enjoy 2 3 jobs, play it to its fullest and move on with thier lives. the way s.e has changed the job gear selections, character space and slips you have fully gear 6+ jobs.

i find your suggestions to be an sarcastic idea, in a thread that suggests we nerf aegis and get rid of brd rotations. lol

Do some of you actually play the jobs in strategies and gear you've mention? MDT/DT and MEVa gear from latest updates serves PLD well enough for Magic damage. In fact i have both ochain/aegis and anyone who has played PLD knows that aegis is a very situation piece. Ochain is what you will use 90 percent of your time in current content, and that it's strengths are not specifically its block rate but its convert damage to mp. in fact any decent pld can tank with a killedar Shield. Most a pld does now is super tank mass mobs,Aegis does not need to be nerfed get over yourselves and play the damn game. D

Maybe because i focus on all the jobs and how they relate to content over a decades time i can get a better over picture of what is going on.
i dont just look at what my job doesnt have, or what could make my life easier since most

i find most players look at this game and thing its should be this happy place where everyone/job is equal and most complains are because of a person slighting someone on thier job because they have unrealistic expectations. i agree some of the issues and stereotypes around jobs are bad and unnecessary and there is room for improvement.

ill be the first one to tell you that this game needs improvement, however the suggestions are made from perspectives that are totally screwd. Most of the game problems are not game mechanics, its just ppl treating other people badly and players not take their one job seriously. there is a hierachry with gear and content. its posted all over this site. respect it and use it, learn the game mechanics and appreciate what makes your job unique.

this game is a program based on formulas and random number generators. you guys are always looking at its from the end product and not as a developer. there are concepts and everything i read seems to me lacks understand of that. there is also a time factor, we need new content to kill. we dont need to be wasting our time fixing shit that isnt broken.

i dont even want to type anymore. this is rather pointless as i will write a book and it will be TLDR, so im just going to say this.

dont just look at your friend(s) who quit and thier reasons.

this game is population has been dying over long period of time. Mainly because your exampled reasoning. s.e has given in to the newer generation of mmos and the (smaller) playerbase who are the only one giving feedback because they are upset. players who enjoy the game are 80% less likely to compliment s.e for a good update than a compliant. only ppl who come and give them feedback are those who are upset. i find most posts are from players, dont truly experience game content to the fullest.

btw the game is now down 50% at least because of these reasons. each of them picking away at the playerbase. most of them would of still be playing. would they want change. but they wouldnt have quit for game reasons.

salvage bans, when Wotg content was crap and slow on updates, then we got lol mini expansion, then server merged pissed alot of ppl off, then abyssea ERASED all end game content previous to that, then s.e repaired it, with neo events. then ERASED IT with SOA, delve is ridicoulously easy and the reward system was nice til they gave 70k per win.

any ffxi enthusiast was done and bored with all the soa content by sept. lol what does s.e care, when they ahve already mention thier goal is to make both 14 and 11 playable at the same time. where you can get content done to play both.

anyways, job balance. you are taking what i said too far. no s.e doesnt favor jobs, the playerbase does. it may look like it, however s.e makes the jobs to thier niches and you can choose to play them as there are built. the same iwth the content. s.e make the battle content and playerbase choose the play them as they see fit.

this is why s.e has to turn down and test every idea to the limits they have set. for example i said in my other posts.

im tired it 6am i finish my thoughts another time as im falling asleep.

[Feary]

also i just wanna say not all those idea were bad, was just using an example. like job ability delay. it is the biggest issue that needs to addressed


and i have ghorn/harp. brd rotations are not difficult at all nor are cor rotations. what is the issue i just dont get it. lol

as a leader of a delve linkshell, i find communication between the two players during such rotations is the issue not the job.

[Damane]

also i just wanna say not all those idea were bad, was just using an example. like job ability delay. it is the biggest issue that needs to addressed


and i have ghorn/harp. brd rotations are not difficult at all nor are cor rotations. what is the issue i just dont get it. lol

as a leader of a delve linkshell, i find communication between the two players during such rotations is the issue not the job.

I never said brd/cor rotations are hard, infact my shell uses them too since years. the issue about this rotations are, that you superbuff an ally with only 2 jobs, which leaves other jobs out. By erasing rotations (hence songs/rolls droping instantly you leave the pt) you create a need for other jobsas debuffers/buffers to fill in the gaps.

Most of the imbalance we have seen come the last few years started allways with [Insert: job] getting buffed out the wazoo with brd/cor rotations, later iterations added PD. PD alone wouldnt have been so overpowered if it werent have been with the combination of brd/cor rotations and embrava, because brd/cor rotations actually made it possible for people to kill the mob before PD wore off. this led to some very disturbing game designs later on (see Legion, albeit the non PD version just uses stun rotation, see when Arch-dynamis-lord was first introduced).

[Tennotsukai]

The new job points maybe a good step in fixing job balance.

[Glamdring]

This is one of the biggest concerns that a lot of us have about Final Fantasy XI right now.

First let me say, I feel like the recent changes over the last few months as far as enmity, and minor job adjustments have been steps in the right direction, but they are far too minor. There are still only a handful of jobs that get invitations to top tier encounters. It would be fantastic if there were class adjustments that are affective enough that open end game to all jobs.

In other words, I would love to see people shout for any "Tanks, Healers, Support, DD" Rather than specifics like "PLD, MNK, RNG, BRD, COR, WHM" etc..

Just as a couple examples: As long as Aegis and Ochain remain overpowered, then no other tanks will matter. I love playing Rune Fencer, but I'm basically relegated to soloing or lowmans because it's not as good as an Aegis/Ochain PLD. I also really like Puppetmaster, but my damage is murdered because of my pet constantly dying and the delays from slow job ability animations.

Boss evasion is absurdly high, and many DD jobs (especially pets) get annihilated by the damage. So you're only left with DD that can either survive the damage, or stay out of range of it.

It's stuff like this that really need to get fixed. The quality of life updates like the HP warps have been PURE WIN, but the game won't really feel fun unless we can actually be included in endgame while using our favorite jobs. I mean I'd say playing Rune Fencer and Puppetmaster feels like being picked last in gym class, but we're not even getting picked! ><

SIDE NOTE: Another complaint I have is with crafting and how it really creates a rather imposing barrier to end game progression for new players, but that's a topic for a different thread. I just wanted to mention it because I think class balance and old fashioned progress barriers are what are keeping this game from growing.

we've been asking for this for years. The problem is the "official" strategies. those are all made with spamming whatever in mind. Can other jobs do the content? of course they can, but each deviation from the official strat adds between 12 to 90 seconds to the run time, and that is unacceptable to some players. and there is a concerted push to not publish alternate strats on the fan sites. Seriously, look at wiki or BGWiki, there isn't even an entry for Raz skirmishes yet, let alone a strat list. That's kind of the player's fault as well, those sites used to be much more actively maintained than they are now. I'm certainly part of the problem, I have a wiki account but I haven't added a page for it either, let alone started in on strats.

But it isn't just SE failing to make jobs work end-game, it's players forcing things into a pigeon-holed set of strats. All party content was-until recently-supposed to be Zerg only (per the majority of regulars on here), but SE has successfully revived Pld-at least if you have Aegis and Ochain-to get them back in the mix a bit. They have even gotten Blm somewhat back-but only if you didn't level sch too. Even rng is getting a bit of love now that keeping in ammo isn't an invitation to bankruptcy. But rdm, run, geo, dnc, etc, yeah, you are still out for various reasons, none of which have anything to do with not working for the content, they don't work FAST ENOUGH. The pet jobs are crippled in party content do to the insistence on keeping pets underlevelled, that IS an SE choice and the players are simply recognizing that (and considering bst and pup are my 2 favorite jobs it drives me up a wall).

So instead of simply calling out SE you might want to call out the playerbase as well, since they are at least 60% of the problem.

[Camiie]

The new job points maybe a good step in fixing job balance.

I doubt that's the intention, but if so, that's a horrible way to go about it.

[Kincard]

I doubt it will balance anything simply because of the nature of the changes, as far as I can tell they're all just adjustments to existing abilities. There would need to be a ridiculous imbalance between the potency of each job's levels in order for stuff to be balanced (EX: THF would need to get like +10% to sneak attack damage per level and MNK gets +1 subtle blow to Footwork per level), which probably isn't going to happen. It's just going to have everyone get stronger, which is great, but the gap between jobs probably won't change much at all.

[Demonjustin]

I doubt it will balance anything simply because of the nature of the changes, as far as I can tell they're all just adjustments to existing abilities. There would need to be a ridiculous imbalance between the potency of each job's levels in order for stuff to be balanced (EX: THF would need to get like +10% to sneak attack damage per level and MNK gets +1 subtle blow to Footwork per level), which probably isn't going to happen. It's just going to have everyone get stronger, which is great, but the gap between jobs probably won't change much at all.A depressing truth. I look forward to my extra Chainspell Duration and HP/MP from Convert or some junk, rather than the extra Haste & Temper Potency I want that could actually make some amount of difference in my job. Admittedly though, my wishes aren't too far fetched. Most jobs though, screwed unless it's something really game changing like you said.

[Ravenmore]

Some truth to what you say here, Blu debuffs are not that reliable. Blu's debuffs stop landing after normal on AAs, yet their debuffs are okay on other content enemies from what I've noticed. On normal DMII, frightful roar and Bilgestorm are rather decent too. I wish Tourbillion would work...

Also, Drg can be pretty decent in AA if geared well...better than mnk perhaps, not rng though :(

I completely agree with everything, mostly, you say here though. I hope SE is paying attention to this thread.

If a blu is setting any of those spells they are crappy blus and any buff to over all damage is taken away from the loss of damage from the blu so at best it comes out to a wash if the blu was properly geared in the first place. Drg is no were near the same level as mnk and gets shafted hard. Simple fact is a derp mnk is so much better then a derp drg why risk getting a derp drg. Same as it used to be with sam of gtfo, it wasn't sam was so far a head of other DDs it was sam was down right almost next to impossible to mess up to the point where it was worthless(though it could be done).

It is all about risk, do you risk taking a job that needs a lot of effort to be worth anything of do you take a job any derp can play and do well with. If you have a group of friends that know you and how well you can do great, but when it comes to shouts you try to waste as little time as possible and wasting 20 merits cause you took a derp on a harder to gear job is not something people will put up with.

SE has been scared of debuffs for years now and nothing is going to change any time soon. You can thank rdms tickling mobs to death solo but that is what it is. Best you can hope for is gimmicks where debuffs are right now. Even if you removed brd rotation nothing will change rdms won't get invited over just taking a extra brd or cor for the main parties since taking a debuffer would be the same loss of spot so why not just take more brds lol. Dnc won't get into content over just taking another cor or brd and have them go /dnc and bam haste samba and the extra roll/songs. The adjustments to strategy would be so small why even bother putting it forward in the first place.

Trust me I'm not defending SE and the current state of the game just calling out a bad idea that fixes nothing. The only true way to fix it is to have all the DDs able to preform at the same level as mnk with the same effort and all mages able to do what whm and sch can do and they all become interchangeable with in the same strat. If not people will continue to go with the safest path and nothing else. Same goes for tanks but there is the problem of nin and pld/nin.