Put me in coach! Fix me first though!

[Alexandero]

Square, I need you to please help me understand the following story, because I don't get it.

Ok, so my both my RUN and DNC have decent gear. Decided to try something out tonight so I bought two Transcendent Scorpion pops and headed out to Ceizak. I want a fun solo class because I get stuck on COR in parties so it was a toss up between RUN and DNC. Just got a Crobaci +2 today for my RUN so I was feeling pretty cocky.

Dancer went first and was able to keep saber dance up most of the time because he would rarely remove a shadow unless it was a tp move. Took the whole twenty minutes but got him down to 32% before he depopped.

Next the RUN went. Buffed up, called my trusts, popped the Scorpion and proceeded to get the hell beat out of me. I managed to hang in there long enough to get him to 85% but he was landing at least 70% of his hits when Battuta was down.

I know DNC is a solo class but they have a B+ in Evasion, B in Parry, Tactical Parry I, and Evasion III. We have a A+ in Parry, B+ in Evasion, Tactical Parry III and Inquartata. Not to mention Battuta, Phalanx, etc...

Is the Evasion Bonus III that big of a difference? That it avoids more damage with a B+ rating than an A+ Parry, Tactical Parry and Inquartata can? I mean, this was not even a close draw between the two. At this point, there is just no way we can tank anything, just take away the tactical parry and give us some attack bonuses or something... or fix the parry mechanic.

I really love playing RUN but this kind of disappointed me. After +2ing the Great Sword today I had decided to let RUN be the job that I 119. I don't have time to do all of them as it stands, nor do I have the gil. I understand if everything is equal the DNC will outlive me because of the cures, it is a solo class, but it isn't anywhere close. Im getting smacked around on RUN and then eating popcorn while fighting it with DNC. Is there some type of mechanic I am not aware of? Why is my DNC avoiding so much more damage than RUN? Both were in Eminence and the same off pieces so I could keep them as equal as possible. Thoughts? Honestly I would rather you just give us more offensive ability and let us DD. We will never ever get a /yell over a PLD to tank so just let us DD. You guys put all this time into developing this class and its a complete waste, no one plays it. Currently as I am typing this there are 4 99 RUNs online, lol, all in Port Jueno.

Please Square, do something about this class. It is a fun class but it is completely and utterly useless in its current state. We can't DD, we can't tank, we have a couple of support abilities on long CDs. Why even bother creating the job?

[Cljader1]

should be subbing whm or rdm on run for the haste, cure3 and cure 4 that's one of your problems, subbing that will allow you to tank 5 times better. However, run SHOULD NOT have to rely on a sub job for cures , SE needs to really fix this. Cures are a important part of tanking.

[Alexandero]

I dont know. If Im getting hit that much all subbing WHM or RDM is going to do is empty my mp pool faster. I get two evasion bonuses with /dnc, Im not dying because of lack of cures, Im dying because of the lack of damage avoidance/mitigation. Even if I could get the cures off from WHM or RDM, I will just die with an empty mp pool. The problem isn't our cures, I dont think. The problem is the parry mechanic is different than the evasion mechanic. A DNC has B+ evasion rating, we have a B+ evasion rating. A dancer has Evasion Bonus III, we have Evasion Bonus II when we sub /dnc. A dancer has a B- rating in Parry and tactical parry I. We have a A+ Rating and Tactical Parry III + Inquartata. After all of this.... The dancer avoids more damage. Why? It makes absolutely no sense.

So 1 Evasion Bonus = 20+ Levels of Parry + Tactical Parry II + Inquartata? Huh? What?! This is our problem Square Enix. This.

If we actually "Fenced" aka Parry, then we don't need cure bombs, our regen will work.

Square Enix, what is going on here? Will you please explain respond? Honestly, I think the problem is that they are scared to allow us to actually do what we are supposed to. E.g avoid physical damage via parry. If we avoided more physical damage than a DNC and still mitigated the magic damage like we do we would be... like a PLD.

[Motenten]

1) Tactical Parry does nothing to add to your parry rate; it just gives you TP when you parry.

2) Dnc has Tactical Parry IV, vs Run's Tactical Parry III, anyway.

3) Run gets 26 more parry from skill than Dnc does. If it's similar to shield, that translates to about +5% parry rate. It's unlikely that actual damage reduction will be higher than about 6% due solely to the skill difference.

4) Factoring in Inquartata, total damage reduction may possibly be about 20%.

5) Dnc has Evasion Bonus IV, not III.

6) Dnc thus has 26 more evasion than Run/dnc would. That translates into 13% higher evasion rate (assuming you're not hitting caps), which in turn can reduce total damage taken by as much as a 40%, depending on how close to cap you are.

7) You mentioned the mob removing a shadow when you went as Dnc; that means you were Dnc/nin. Utsusemi is obviously hugely useful in preventing damage.

8) Dnc's Waltzes (with newest gear) heal about twice as much HP as the /dnc versions. EG: Curing Waltz III heals me for over 700 as Dnc main, vs ~350 while /dnc. A /dnc job will burn through their TP far faster than Dnc main will, making it unsupportable if you're taking too much damage (such as the damage difference from not being /nin).


Summary: Even without counting the difference in Waltzes, or possible differences in gear used, the evasion difference plus shadows can easily lead to having your Run take at least 2.5x as much damage as your Dnc.

Consider trying again as Run/nin just to see how the damage taken compares (assuming you're using Trust NPCs as healers anyway, there shouldn't be a significant difference due to self-healing).



I would agree with the assessment that SE needs to boost Run's parry rate, though. If it's intended as a tank, it should be reasonable to expect at least a 40% reduction in damage taken due to its primary defense -- parry. Inquartata should thus be on a scale comparable to Evasion Bonus.

A Thf's Evasion Bonus is +60, which is -30% hit rate (aside from caps). A Run's parry rate will never hit the 80% cap that a Thf could with evasion, but a tank is used in situations where you wouldn't be getting off the evasion floor anyway. +30% parry from Inquartata would thus be in line with that, but without getting the extremely high reduction values you'd see if you were pushing close to the 80% cap.

Thus the suggestion would be that Inquartata should at least go up to +30%, to be comparable to a Thf's evasion bonus, or the damage reduction of a Pld using a shield.

[Alexandero]

Thanks Motenten for explaining that. You're the bomb. I was just going off of wiki on passives so I probably had them wrong. What you said makes sense. Hopefully they will get us to a better spot because right now I just feel like they wasted alot of effort in creating this job. It isn't desired for anything and I feel pretty useless on it.

[Darthmaull]

The best way I've found to tank with RUN is with /nin. /dnc just can't do it. You will get hit pretty frequently as you have found. The new AF relic legs makes this sub even better. I really feel that because just about all the RUNs that I've come across want this job to DD it's creating this stigma that RUN cannot tank. This recent update has been great for RUN in my eyes. There are so many spells and job abilities available to RUN that it makes it very hard for a mob to take you down in a group setting if you have a competent WHM for those oh S#1t moments. Also with the unannounced mp replenishment with Vivacious Pulse, this job has basically been fixed. Problem is the near sightedness of the player base and the fact that no one plays this job as it's main so they are mainly following others with /rdm, /whm, /dnc and /Sam as the only subs and play style for this job. /nin is not an offensive sub at all. You will be out damaged by another Run with the other subs even if your gear is a little better. I've tried it and I lost Everytime on a parser but I was able to hold hate mainly until the mnk in my group decided to go ape s#1t and try to steal hate. But that was before the update so that may not be possible now.

I just wanted to give my take on RUN so far because when I saw this thread it made me shake my head because /dnc to tank is pure fail.

[FaeQueenCory]

From my experience with RUN... which is a lot.

/rdm is by far "the best," in my opinion.
+15% FC makes you not only have a 2s SS cast, but always have that recast of it ready whenever it might drop.
+15% haste from... haste. >_> is invaluable.
Cure4 is also a godsend... and cure3 too, but I've found that cure4 + Vivacious Pule is more than enough... namely cause VP is a cure3 on a 90s timer... and the goal of RUN, like all tanks, is to mitigate damage... not just heal through it. That being said, it never hurts to have it though.

/nin on the other hand.... is also really good. Not my personal taste.... but it's always a good sub.... and it won't horribly gimp you beyond reason turning you into a joke that dies in 2s cause you can never put SS back up like /sam.
It gives you..... Utsusemi.
That's pretty much it.
Though I guess you can maybe fool around with the ni spells... to... increase your swipe and lunge damage?
I dunno.
As I said it's not my thing. I prefer hard tanking (ala PLD) to blink tanking (ala nin) and going /nin changes your setup from a hard tank (as their intent with RUN is... at least that's what they say) to a blink tanker.
But it costs you ninja tools... and.... I just don't want to deal with that lol
(Though I guess it helps you when you need a requiescater... and you dual wield swords... but... that's such a limited time for RUN... stick to the GSs...)

/dnc sounds good... on paper, buuuut:
Your sambas don't work, so no haste... Cause of runes.
Anything /dnc gives... RUN already has... except dual wield... which... is only useful for RUN when you need to DW swords for Requiescat... so... not that terribly useful.
And the extra heals are just not efficient... because unlike PLD, RUN uses damage to maintain enmity. And they will cut down on your damage, and thus your tanking ability.

/sam.... is just the worst.
There are no argument for it.
It SO severely gimps RUN.... that it's soul-crushingly sad.
Hasso and seigan sound like they'd be really helpful.... on paper... but that +50% cast time and +50% recast time... just kills RUN.
RUN lives off of it's enhancing magic... and without it... it dies.
I once had a LSmate tell me "eh, I have inspiration merited, so that negates it."
Except it doesn't.
Sure, you go back to +/-0% casting time.... but with the FC from 5/5 inspiration... you still have +25% recast from Hasso and Seigan... which means your SS/phalanx probably won't not be there for you when you need it...
And unless you feel like disengaging Hasso and Seigan EVERY time you need to cast a spell (which is a LOT of the time)....
Basically: It's not worth it... it gimps the job, and trying to make it work is just gonna make you go crazy.

/whm is good for solos cause it gives you -nas... and haste.

But the best two /jobs, IMO, are RDM and NIN.
And it really just depends on your personal taste which one you choose. (Though I personally feel that RDM is better... if only for haste.)



And as for MP being a "problem"... It's not.
At least not when you wear the RF1 body.
And that's why the RF2 body, IMO, is 1 step forward... but 13 steps back.
Sure it has -6DT (though PLD gets -8 and -9.... and SE wants PLD and RUN to be interchangeable? They gonna need some more... equality for that to ever happen.), but it costs you 2mp auto-refresh.
And I've seen it time and time again, the RUNs that don't use the RF1 body, hemorrhage their MP as bad as a WHM who doesn't use their AF3+2 legs in endgame.
To compare, let us look at PLD. To which you might say "they don't need any refresh on their gear to work!" and you are right... because they have the auto-refresh trait and a merit ability that basically can let them go from 0 to full MP with one use.
The current state of RUN is that of a PLD before lv35: MP everywhere, but not in you.
That is, unless you use the RF1 body.
Which is a shame... because I was really hoping that the RF2 body was gonna be useable... but it's not... no more so than Thaumas Coat is anyways...
RUN needs it's MP, even with keeping refresh on you 100% of the time... that 2 extra MP REALLY make a difference.
And without that auto-refresh effect... RUN's useability is... very low.
So either SE can give RUN the auto-refresh trait (not gonna happen), or they can be sure to put -DT AND refresh on the fake-empy body.
(and does anyone else find that regen+2 on the fake-relic body so insulting? Cause it's not like RUN doesn't have auto-regen+15000000 from the JT... I really hope that that was some sort of clerical error and it should have been refresh+2... but they'll never change it... maybe the 119 will spawn in refresh +1... 1MP/tic refresh should be enough to make RUN stop hemorrhaging MP... but, obviously, 2 would be better.)

[Kensagaku]

I don't know what "experience" you have with RUN, but so far I've seen a lot of misconceptions that really boggle me to read over. I'll address your points in order, however.

First off, we'll talk subjobs. /RDM is alright for a starting RUN subjob, I'll agree, and for solo it's not bad depending on the situation. Cure IV can be a good clutch cure. As you start your RUN, that extra Fast Cast is useful as well, I won't deny that in the least. But this is only when you're first starting off as RUN, and occasionally when you solo. Otherwise, /RDM is actually a very poor subjob. And it all comes down to one simple ability: Inspiration.

Now you might say, "Inspiration is only 50% FC with 5/5, and you need to cap off at 80% to get the maximum casting time down." Okay, fair enough. So we're 30% short of that cap. Now, let's look at our new legs, the Futhark Trousers. They come with the augment "Enhances 'Inspiration' Effect." I personally did the testing myself to confirm the value of this, which had already been calculated on BG, and I wasn't surprised to find out that the effect of this augment is to add an additional 2% Fast Cast per merit in Inspiration. And the best part is? You only had to wear these on activation of Vallation/Valiance, and the effects would remain regardless of what leg gear you are using on casting, freeing that slot up for a Fast Cast piece if needed. Now at the moment, we're at 60% Fast Cast with 5/5 merits, requiring only 20% more. Our AF1/RF1 (technically the same in this situation) head, the Runeist's Bandeau, comes with 10% Fast Cast on it, so that's 70%. We only need 10% more to cap. On RUN, we have several options to do so:

-For Enhancing Magic, we have Futhark Trousers, which gives -12% casting time on Enhancing spells. There we go, 82% FC, so we've hit our cast time down cap.
-For non-enhancing magic we've got Orvail Pants (5%, and +1 probably has 6%), Thaumas Gloves (4%), Loquacious Earring (2%), Chelona Boots/+1 (4/5%), Prolix Ring (2%), an augmented Jeweled Collar (1~3%), or Orunmilla's Torque (5%) to fill in those slots.

So in short, /RDM isn't really that useful sub short of clutch cures, providing nothing additional but Haste. If you're in a party situation as a tank, you shouldn't need haste, as it's provided. If you're solo, then go /WHM, which not only provides you the same bonuses you'd get from /RDM (cures and haste) minus some MAB, but also gives you -na spells, Reraise, and Erase as bonus abilities that make it far more substantial as a solo subjob. And let's toss on Divine Seal for those Clutch cures as well, that's always handy. Plus with a native Divine Skill and ilvl weapons with Magic Accuracy Skill, you can land Repose fairly easily on standard mobs. I'm not saying "no you can't play RUN/RDM" - I take it to WoE because I find that being able to consistently stick Blind and Paralyze is useful for soloing some of the annoying baddies like the harpies. It's a niche deal, not really an exceptional one.

Now /NIN is not nearly as bad as you make it sound. Though lacking haste, the amount of Fast Cast RUN can get (easily beating the 80% cast time cap) means you can get up shadows at a quick pace, and already have 40% of the recast time off. Toss on haste or haste/fast cast hybrids and it gets better. Runeist's Bandeau is 10% Fast Cast and 7% Haste. Orvail Pants +1 has an additional 1% haste, and Thaumas Gloves has Haste/Fast Cast as well. Basically, RUN gets a lot of recast/cast time tools available to it in order to make /NIN a great damage mitigation subjob. It doesn't gain any offensive bonuses to it (I literally cannot tell you of any time I've needed to dualwield swords or axes) but it is meant to be a way to mitigate physical damage, which is RUN's biggest weakness at the moment. Granted there are AoEs and such that will still get through it, but this is probably one of RUN's best, if not the best, mitigation subjobs.

Slight edit here: I misread your note on /nin slightly, and misinterpreted the "only provides Utsusemi" as a bad take on the job. We're in agreement that it's a good subjob on this, in truth.

/DNC I will agree is somewhat lackluster. While you have a decent TP gain to fuel your Waltzes and Steps, as well as access to stun with Violent Flourish, it just doesn't bring a ton to the table. If you're burning your TP on healing and status removal, then you're losing damage you could be doing with weapon skills. Dual Wield isn't much again, and while Evasion Bonus is useful in helping you reduce damage taken, shadows from /NIN are better for physical mitigation.

/SAM is a tricky one in my book, and quite frankly would only show up in party combat. In party combat you won't be using your MP to cure yourself or Regen; you'll use it for quick barspell changes, Phalanx, Foil, and Flash primarily. So the casting detriment to Hasso/Seigan really only hits you hard on Phalanx, and even that has a really short cast time. Unless you're getting Dispel spammed, the recast boost won't hurt you on that. The recast on Foil could hurt depending, but that can be mitigated with Fast Cast and Haste gear as well as Inspiration. The main purpose of this sub is to provide a tank as necessary, but otherwise provide a semi-competent DD until that time becomes necessary. With DDs going all-out rush-mode on most opponents, if you even manage to hold hate in the first place, it'll be ping-ponging within seconds. So you're going to be there to do damage, and when something goes wrong and DDs drop, you're there to take hate and tank it while recovery happens. /SAM is not a pure tanking subjob for RUN; it is meant to be a hybrid that can be used in various ways to mitigate unexpected situations.

This is just my take on subjobs, mind you. I'm not the expert, and though I've played RUN frequently since SoA came out and have put a lot of work into the job, I still won't claim to have the pure expertise of someone who has crunched numbers for hours to make something perfect or min/maxed. I mostly use it as a solo job with occasional tanking in a small group. So this is my take on what I've seen work, as well as my thoughts on what I think could work given the situation.

Your second argument is MP not being a problem, but only if you use the RF1 coat. I agree, but only to an extent. A good RUN has multiple sets ready to go, and though it might take up multiple pages of a macro book to cover them, you can be prepared for multiple situations. If something's fodder or doesn't do significant damage your healer can't easily handle, then you are in a full melee set, including the Thaumas Coat you claim is unusable. In fact, most work I do in my Thaumas Coat unless I come to a situation in which I can't support myself solo or my healer can't cover me quickly enough. If you're running low on MP but are still facing fodder, you switch into a TP set that uses your RF1 coat instead of your Thaumas Coat, and though you lose damage you can get some MP ticks back up and then switch back into your melee set. If you see a big hit coming, switch to your DT set using your RF2 coat long enough to tank the hit and then switch back into the appropriate set for the situation.

A lot of your argument here seems to hinge on being stuck in one set of equipment without swapping it out frequently. And before someone goes "omgblinking," <stal> and <stpt> exist to counter that. RUN is a versatile tank and damage dealer if played well, and though it has a ways to go until it can compete on the physical side to match up with PLD, it can do its job through wise consideration of your gear sets, an appropriate subjob for the situation, and knowledge of how to use that subjob to its fullest alongside RUN's varied abilities. This is just my two cents on the matter.

[Cljader1]

/whm is also a very good sub especially with its assortment of cures, na's and reraise, however /rdm also have a offensive prowless with its MA bonus which helps swipes and lunges. Furthermore /rdm also has convert and you can set one macro that can launch convert and vivacious pulse almost simultaneously I normally do this when I have battuta and stoneskin going. Both subs are very good, but in my opinion, much better than the others. The more SE adds things to run the more shifts there will be in sub jobs, if run gets haste and cures, /pld might also be a viable option

[Damane]

From my experience with RUN... which is a lot.

/rdm is by far "the best," in my opinion.
+15% FC makes you not only have a 2s SS cast, but always have that recast of it ready whenever it might drop.
+15% haste from... haste. >_> is invaluable.
Cure4 is also a godsend... and cure3 too, but I've found that cure4 + Vivacious Pule is more than enough... namely cause VP is a cure3 on a 90s timer... and the goal of RUN, like all tanks, is to mitigate damage... not just heal through it. That being said, it never hurts to have it though.

/nin on the other hand.... is also really good. Not my personal taste.... but it's always a good sub.... and it won't horribly gimp you beyond reason turning you into a joke that dies in 2s cause you can never put SS back up like /sam.
It gives you..... Utsusemi.
That's pretty much it.
Though I guess you can maybe fool around with the ni spells... to... increase your swipe and lunge damage?
I dunno.
As I said it's not my thing. I prefer hard tanking (ala PLD) to blink tanking (ala nin) and going /nin changes your setup from a hard tank (as their intent with RUN is... at least that's what they say) to a blink tanker.
But it costs you ninja tools... and.... I just don't want to deal with that lol
(Though I guess it helps you when you need a requiescater... and you dual wield swords... but... that's such a limited time for RUN... stick to the GSs...)

/dnc sounds good... on paper, buuuut:
Your sambas don't work, so no haste... Cause of runes.
Anything /dnc gives... RUN already has... except dual wield... which... is only useful for RUN when you need to DW swords for Requiescat... so... not that terribly useful.
And the extra heals are just not efficient... because unlike PLD, RUN uses damage to maintain enmity. And they will cut down on your damage, and thus your tanking ability.

/sam.... is just the worst.
There are no argument for it.
It SO severely gimps RUN.... that it's soul-crushingly sad.
Hasso and seigan sound like they'd be really helpful.... on paper... but that +50% cast time and +50% recast time... just kills RUN.
RUN lives off of it's enhancing magic... and without it... it dies.
I once had a LSmate tell me "eh, I have inspiration merited, so that negates it."
Except it doesn't.
Sure, you go back to +/-0% casting time.... but with the FC from 5/5 inspiration... you still have +25% recast from Hasso and Seigan... which means your SS/phalanx probably won't not be there for you when you need it...
And unless you feel like disengaging Hasso and Seigan EVERY time you need to cast a spell (which is a LOT of the time)....
Basically: It's not worth it... it gimps the job, and trying to make it work is just gonna make you go crazy.

/whm is good for solos cause it gives you -nas... and haste.

But the best two /jobs, IMO, are RDM and NIN.
And it really just depends on your personal taste which one you choose. (Though I personally feel that RDM is better... if only for haste.)



And as for MP being a "problem"... It's not.
At least not when you wear the RF1 body.
And that's why the RF2 body, IMO, is 1 step forward... but 13 steps back.
Sure it has -6DT (though PLD gets -8 and -9.... and SE wants PLD and RUN to be interchangeable? They gonna need some more... equality for that to ever happen.), but it costs you 2mp auto-refresh.
And I've seen it time and time again, the RUNs that don't use the RF1 body, hemorrhage their MP as bad as a WHM who doesn't use their AF3+2 legs in endgame.
To compare, let us look at PLD. To which you might say "they don't need any refresh on their gear to work!" and you are right... because they have the auto-refresh trait and a merit ability that basically can let them go from 0 to full MP with one use.
The current state of RUN is that of a PLD before lv35: MP everywhere, but not in you.
That is, unless you use the RF1 body.
Which is a shame... because I was really hoping that the RF2 body was gonna be useable... but it's not... no more so than Thaumas Coat is anyways...
RUN needs it's MP, even with keeping refresh on you 100% of the time... that 2 extra MP REALLY make a difference.
And without that auto-refresh effect... RUN's useability is... very low.
So either SE can give RUN the auto-refresh trait (not gonna happen), or they can be sure to put -DT AND refresh on the fake-empy body.
(and does anyone else find that regen+2 on the fake-relic body so insulting? Cause it's not like RUN doesn't have auto-regen+15000000 from the JT... I really hope that that was some sort of clerical error and it should have been refresh+2... but they'll never change it... maybe the 119 will spawn in refresh +1... 1MP/tic refresh should be enough to make RUN stop hemorrhaging MP... but, obviously, 2 would be better.)

I like to use /blu often:
10% haste
50% defense (Cocoon)
you can set different traits such as:
Magic attack
Attack Bonus
Defense Bonus
etc.

Cocoon makes a big difference in damage taken, while giving no penalty (as in Defender from /war) and the traits you can set or pick out are very nice. + you get a okeish haste for 10%, you even get a cure III (wild carrot) but its potency is really lacking for /blu lol. You could even set some killer instincts if you wanted.

[saevel]

Yeah I have no idea what queens was yamming on about, /RDM is pretty when compared to /WHM, /NIN and SAM.


It doesn't gain any offensive bonuses to it (I literally cannot tell you of any time I've needed to dualwield swords or axes) but it is meant to be a way to mitigate physical damage, which is RUN's biggest weakness at the moment.

Shark and Bee delve runs. Swords are for anytime you need to spam requiescat due to -PDT making GS useless. That being said, right now there is exactly one good sword for RUN, and your gonna be off handing the Eminent Sword. Axe is a slightly different issue, Ruinator is a monstrously powerful WS whenever your not receiving Chaos roll + min's. It has a ~35% attack bonus to go with it's 4+1 hits and it copies fTP for 1.2 per hit. Again RUN's only choice is the Eminent Axe which is pretty decent while off handing either the Enminent sword or the AAEV one.

With no +skill gear I have,
440 GS (8/8 Merits)
433 Sword (8/8 Merits)
406 Gaxe (4/8 Merits)
396 Axe (4/8 Merits)

I'm in the process of reassigning axe merits to gaxe since I've got my 119 Bravura for WAR and for the situations that make Axe useful the 16 skill isn't going to matter much.

/SAM is for laying down the pain in group situations. It lets you ramp up damage and actually be worth the spot your taking. It's been my experience that RUN is far better as a support melee then a paper tank. If someone learns the dangerous moves of the various NM's / boss's you can time Valiance to give your party a ridiculously powerful damage reduction to those dangerous moves. OFA acts as a c*ck block when you either see the NM casting something really dangerous or you know a big annoying move is about to come. Lunge / Swipe are also useful damage moves, especially if the targets have a weakness to magic damage.

[Camate]

Greetings,

The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.

[Gannon]

the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

I am pretty sure the casting time and recast penalties from Hasso and Seigan kill SAM's usefulness as a tanking sub for RUN.

[HimuraKenshyn]

I just hope the development team understand exactly how much physical damage a RUN takes is considerable against anything big and is the single biggest issue parry does not stack up to shield block at all and no mob worth its salt in game is solely magical so meh. Many have tried to just turn RUN into a another support dd if its used at all which is sad. We really could use a alternative tank vs all the things lol. Add a 242 skill -Physical damage taken great sword basically a GS version of a Burtgang for starters that breaks the cap and see where we can go lol..

[Brightshadow]

A job should never have to depend upon a subjob to function properly.

[Vivivivi]

Greetings,

The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.

I'm all for Rune Fencer getting further adjustments, but I'd like to share some extensive hands on testing I did with Rune Fencer since the last update:
At level 99 with all level 109 AF1 gear (at least) and some 109 pieces of the Fulhark Set, I decided to try out some subjob combinations with Rune Fencer.

I didn't feel SAM worked well as a subjob for tanking, but it was nice if I wanted to be a bit more of a damage dealer. I tried NIN as well, but felt that shadows were too easily wiped, and I didn't see much value in the subtle blow or increases to parrying.

Next logical choice was WAR. Provoke is helpful for holding enmity, but with my equipment I saw little increase in overall attack power. Double attack seemed to proc more (I have the double attack neck and earrings from delve, and an eponas ring and windbuffet belt). But statistically speaking, the overall bonus from WAR was mostly for provoke.

Interestingly enough I found most success subbing RDM on RUN. The bonus fast cast trait cuts down on cast time a lot, the haste spell speeds up attacks and recasts, and with a handful of cure potency pieces (the belt from WKR, ring from WKR and Bismark neck) made my cure 4s jump up to a serviceable level both for myself and for party members.

With RDM being my goto choice for subjob, I then rethought my macros. My main ones are something like this:

WARD-ME: runs through all of the single target wards plus swordplay.
WARD-PT: runs through all of the party wide wards plus magic barrier.
CURE-ME: Uses Vivacious Pulse with a 1 sec wait and cure 4 on myself.
And then I have a macro for each elemental rune with whatever the minimum wait is (I think 4 seconds now).

I Also have a swipe/lunge macro which will do a swipe, rune recast, and lunge and I just modify which rune depending on what I'm doing at the time.

All of these are enmity magnets. I decided to further test by joining a Yumcax shout.

To my surprise I main tanked the entire fight. There were two Aegis paladins and an Ochain Paladin as well, but by staggering the above macros and tossing flash in occasionally, I was able to not only hold enmity, but also survive (keeping foil up always is key for that). That is, until I ran out of hallowed water XD.

There was a Kumhau fight immediately afterwards, so I figured I was on a roll, might as well join.

My friend, an Aegis PLD joined, and then the rest of the group decided to go to Cezik Battlegrounds (after we enter of course). So we decided to just start anyway and see what would happen.

We were both pretty surprised that a PLD and RUN duo managed to hold Kumhau without any issues for about 15-20 minutes until more people started showing up. Having a PLD and a RUN in the same party works great– Paladin excels at absorbing more raw damage, and can cover or help heal the Rune Fencer, while Rune Fencer avoids a lot more enfeebles, and can take over while the Paladin recovers from those. It was very much like a tag-team in wrestling in a way.

As that fight went on, we continued that strategy, which worked great until about 1/4th of the way to go where something got the PLD. I survived on Rune Fencer the entire time, and got some in-game applause from other players haha.

So yeah, as of right now, Rune Fencer is a functional tank in some situations! Maybe not for the most challenging end-game content yet, but certainly for some current some-what challenging content. My recommendation is to try to stagger self wards with party wards, toss swipes and lunges in when you can afford to be without a rune briefly, and stack some cure potency items while subbing RDM and I think you'll also find it a lot easier to be the focus of the enemy.

[FaeQueenCory]

I am pretty sure the casting time and recast penalties from Hasso and Seigan kill SAM's usefulness as a tanking sub for RUN.
Oh they don't just kill it...
They dissolve it into a fine mist...
+50% casting time and +50% recast can't even be 0'd by full inspiration merits... Cause you'll still be left at +25% recast...
Which I guess capped gear haste can zero that...

But isn't that the mark of crappiness when you have to work just to zero something that would otherwise kill you?

EDIT: I can 100% substantiate Vivivivi.
RDM is, hands down, the BEST subjob for RUN. The fast cast, the cures... The compliment what RUN already does perfectly.

/nin... Just makes you a crappy NIN, IMO... The subtle blow doesn't really matter for RUN... And the DW is basically only good for that ONE time RUN needs to requiescat...
And, as mentioned, /sam is... Just the worst.

I would also like to add that RUN needs the refesh from the Runeist body.
Please for the love of all that is holy... Make the 119 Futhark body gain a refresh+1... While 2mp refesh is great... 1mp is what PLDs get for free and any PLD can tell you how much a godsend that autorefresh is.

Here's the easy fix for RUN, devs:
1) Give it THE SAME crazystupid high values of PDT that PLD gets. 2s and 3s are NOT equal to 4s and 5s... And in that same note, straight DT: -6 =/= -8 and -9...
2) When you do give RUN the -DT values... Don't jank the rest of the piece's stats. Why does 119 Futhark Bandeau have almost the EXACT statline of the 109 Runiest Bandeau? Cause that -PDT needed to be gimped out? PLD RFs don't seem to have this problem. (And in this note, -6DT would be wonderful to have... But the loss of the 2mp/tic all the time causes the job to hemorrhage MP... And switching all your runes to be able to restore a middling amount of MP doesn't help that... Which, btw, is probably why the devs believe that changing runes is how we keep and maintain enmity... We're doing it cause we don't have a chivalry and only dark runes give mp...)
3) refresh. It needs this. Always. Not using a body with at least 1mp refresh... Causes your mp to just bleed everywhere.
It's as bad as a WHM who isn't using the AF3+2 pants. (Or even the AF3+1)

I think this news that the devs intended... /sam.... To be "the subjob"... For RUN... Is worrisome...
Cause I'm a SMN... And what the devs intended for that job was NOT how that job is or was EVER played.
And I'm seeing this happening with RUN...
This also explains why they thought RUNs were wearing Thaumas Coats for the Acc...
Sure we got a +acc trait... which is good for keeping enmity because RUN generates and keeps enmity through damage...
But...
Please don't listen to me too hard about the refresh... Don't give RUN refresh II... Don't give RUN auto-refresh JT...
Just give Futhark Coat +1 at least 1mp refresh... 0r better yet... Get rid of that insulting regen+2 and make it refresh... RUN has like 6hp/tic autoregen... It doesn't need two more...
And make sure the fake!empy body has 1-2mp/tic refresh on it.
(1 saves your mp, 2 means you will never have problems)

[Glamdring]

Greetings,

The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.


Serriously? doesn't parry max out at 5% effectiveness? and we are supposed to rely on that for defense? for evasion I'd go thief or dnc and as to blink tanking with the bosses all spamming AoE in endgame it's never seemed worth it to me. quite frankly I see more survivability from the para effect on my Ice Spikes. I usually sub whm or rdm, I like the reraise and dispel options between the two. I've had SOME success /war as well depending on the other jobs in party, but nothing special. I tend to think the haste from the mages is more useful than voke or berserk. I'd think making an ability like "Counting Coup: damage reduced 2/3, enmity 500%, haste +12%, duration 3 minutes, recast 3 minutes" would work better since it would allow us to do damage when we need to (generally when soloing) but go in to pure tanking in a party; of course it would cut the almighty DPS parser so you would probably hear the screaming from the american players clear in Tokyo. either that or take off the cap on parry effectiveness with a major enmity boost for a parried attack, and add Riposte-a fencing trait analagous to counter, also generating significant enmity.

But whatever, it's your game.

[Martel]

Interestingly enough I found most success subbing RDM on RUN. The bonus fast cast trait cuts down on cast time a lot, the haste spell speeds up attacks and recasts, and with a handful of cure potency pieces (the belt from WKR, ring from WKR and Bismark neck) made my cure 4s jump up to a serviceable level both for myself and for party members.Do you not have inspiration merits or something?

RUN can get +60% fast cast from inspiration, with 5/5 merits and relic augment. Leaving a mere 20% to gear till the fast cast cap. This is also fulltime-able, barring unlucky dispels.

The fast cast from /RDM should have little to no effect on RUN.(excepting maybe on kumhau, since he like to spam full dispel...)

Overall, I'm of the opinion that /RDM is a poor choice for a tanking sub. On anything serious, the curing would be primarily left to the healers. And they'd be hasting you too. The fast cast should have minimal impact. Most RDM buffs overlap with RUNs spell list. There's very little to be gained here.

As a Solo sub, /RDM quite a decent choice. Self haste and Cures become useful again in the absence of a healer.


Greetings,

The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.

It floors me that SE thinks Rune Fencer is lacking in enmity generation capability. They're Way better off than PLD in terms of native enmity actions available to them. But before I repeat myself too much, I pretty much just posted about this already... See here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/40594-Enmity-Revision?p=498436&viewfull=1#post498436).

If RUN's enmity generation is insufficient, could you take a look at PLD please, SE? If RUN enmity needs a buff, then PLD must too. <,<;

If anything, all RUN needs in terms of enmity generation, is better access to enmity+ gear. For a job labeled as a tank, their AF and Relic are decidedly lacking in it.

Furthermore, with the advent of enmity+ gear reducing enmity loss via damage, there's a need for enmity+ on PDT pieces. Pretty much the only RUN wearable gear that meets that requirement is pre-Ilvl. Thus missing tons off def/stats, and effectively unusable for a PDT set.

Well, new gear is planned for better defenses, can maybe work some enmity+ into that?

[FaeQueenCory]

Do you not have inspiration merits or something?

RUN can get +60% fast cast from inspiration, with 5/5 merits and relic augment. Leaving a mere 20% to gear till the fast cast cap. This is also fulltime-able, barring unlucky dispels.

The fast cast from /RDM should have little to no effect on RUN.(excepting maybe on kumhau, since he like to spam full dispel...)

Overall, I'm of the opinion that /RDM is a poor choice for a tanking sub. On anything serious, the curing would be primarily left to the healers. And they'd be hasting you too. The fast cast should have minimal impact. Most RDM buffs overlap with RUNs spell list. There's very little to be gained here.

As a Solo sub, /RDM quite a decent choice. Self haste and Cures become useful again in the absence of a healer.
Clearly...
You either have never done any 119 content...
Or have never done it on PLD...
Or have been blind when you do it...

Because PLDs cast cures.
Regardless of how good your WHM is.
Your PLD will drop cures on themselves... Because that helps maintain enmity and makes life easier.

And you're just plain wrong. There is no benefit to /sam... Because thanks to iLvs, the STR bonus from hasso is basically worthless. (Cause it's so small it's negligible.)
And when you have to go through work just to 0 your subjob's effect on your main job... THAT's the sign of a bad subjob.

Cure4: saves your life
FC: let's see... You argue that +0%FC > -95% cast time... Cause THAT makes sense... A job that lives off of it's enhancing magic... SS namely... Surely will NOT benefit from 2s cast times...
MAB: yeah... Increasing your Lunge and Swipe damage... Which increases your enmity... Which lets you hold hate better... Yup... That's totally not helpful at all... 9_9
Haste: sure, it's not JA haste... So it doesn't give you crazy delay reduction... But then...

And I realize that this is a VERY hard concept for most ppl to grasp about RUN...

RUN is NOT a DD.

[Martel]

Clearly...
You either have never done any 119 content...
Or have never done it on PLD...
Or have been blind when you do it...

Because PLDs cast cures.
Regardless of how good your WHM is.
Your PLD will drop cures on themselves... Because that helps maintain enmity and makes life easier.
PLDs cast cures when:
-You don't have a WHM
-Your WHM is slow, busy, or other wise unable to cast.
-You don't trust your WHM to do it fast enough.
-Your HP is so damn low not even a cure 6 is gonna cap you.
-You've got nothing better to do.

Cure enmity is pathetic. The only reason to cure for enmity is cause you have nothing else decent to cast. It's been getting worse as the level cap rose already. Then they nerfed the heck outta it during the major enmity adjustments. But subbing RDM just kills it even more. Do you know what Tranquil Heart is? Look it up. You clearly need to do more research on a great many levels.


And you're just plain wrong. There is no benefit to /sam... Because thanks to iLvs, the STR bonus from hasso is basically worthless. (Cause it's so small it's negligible.)
And when you have to go through work just to 0 your subjob's effect on your main job... THAT's the sign of a bad subjob.Where exactly did I say to use /SAM. Or mention /SAM at all? You're showing a lack of reading comprehension here.

FC: let's see... You argue that +0%FC > -95% cast time... Cause THAT makes sense... A job that lives off of it's enhancing magic... SS namely... Surely will NOT benefit from 2s cast times...
MAB: yeah... Increasing your Lunge and Swipe damage... Which increases your enmity... Which lets you hold hate better... Yup... That's totally not helpful at all... 9_9
Haste: sure, it's not JA haste... So it doesn't give you crazy delay reduction... But then...
The fast cast cap is 80%. With inspiration, RUN can easily cap. Thus, the /RDM fast cast trait isn't gonna do anything.

My argument states the presence of a WHM. In this case there is ZERO need to haste yourself. I also acknowledged the utility of /RDM as a solo sub.

MAB is nice. We all like better swipe/lunge. But 25 MAB is entirely insufficient to make /RDM worth using for tanking purposes.


And I realize that this is a VERY hard concept for most ppl to grasp about RUN...

RUN is NOT a DD.Do you see me mentioning RUN's DPS ANYWHERE in that post? Where did I call it a DD? Did you actually read my post. Or just skim it then spew your preconceptions based on what others have said about RUN before all over the forum?

[Selindrile]

I am usually a Pld in AA fights, and I can attest that cure enmity is miserable, I have a reasonable HP+ (mostly accessories as to not lose too much defense) set, so that I can cure about 400HP even when I'm capped before I start casting, that used to be a popular trick in FFXI tanking back in the day.

I rarely end up curing except in the exact situations that Martel listed, I'm usually much better off with one of the other things I can do at the moment.

And /Sam's affect on either tanking or DD is not negligible for the record, Seigan is certainly inferior to /Nin for straight evasion tanking, but the Job Ability Haste component of Hasso is important when your DPS matters more than your tanking usually but still leaves you a defensive option to switch back to, and of course it's a big bonus if the Store TP happens to shave a hit off your X-Hit. (Primarily some old content like duoing WoE or Salvage come to mind)

[dasva]

I am pretty sure the casting time and recast penalties from Hasso and Seigan kill SAM's usefulness as a tanking sub for RUN.

The constant 60% fast cast from vallaince/vallation kinda balances that

[Peepiopi]

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

This is kind of scary. For the devs to say something like this really indicates that they don't really have a full grasp on this job they created, or they don't really care what the problems are.

As long as there is a cast/recast delay on Seigan, then /SAM does more harm to a Rune Fencer tank than good. We need to get buffs up as fast as possible while tanking, not cancel out Inspiration. Besides, not only does blink tanking with /sam or /nin not fit the archetype for Rune Fencers, it's not even close to being the real problem with Rune Fencer physical defense. The answer is PARRY. It always has been. The best parry rate we can get is 20% while the block rate cap is 65%. Not to mention that Paladins have a certain unnamed overpowered shield that allows them to reach 100% block rates. If you're trying to figure out why Rune Fencers are not at the same level as Paladin, that's why.

Also, you've got the wrong idea about our enmity control. We have to spam Rune Enhancements for magic defense against bosses.. especially when trying to keep up with multi-element ones. And since you only put the MP recovery on Tenebrae, we have to use Tenebrae 3 times for MP recovery, since (because our parry rate sucks) we don't have the mp recovery to keep up with our dependency on rebuffs.

Raising the Parry rate cap for Rune Fencers and allowing us to have 100% uptime on a 50%+ parry rate is what it's going to take before Rune Fencer is considered a legit tank in this game. Not only does it fix our problems with physical attacks, It also would improve our cumulative enmity, thanks to Tactical Parry. Our native vol. enmity is fine, but we really need better parry more than anything. Honestly, if you guys haven't figured that out yet, then I think I made a mistake in choosing Rune Fencer for my main.

[Damane]

Clearly...
You either have never done any 119 content...
Or have never done it on PLD...
Or have been blind when you do it...

Because PLDs cast cures.
Regardless of how good your WHM is.
Your PLD will drop cures on themselves... Because that helps maintain enmity and makes life easier.

And you're just plain wrong. There is no benefit to /sam... Because thanks to iLvs, the STR bonus from hasso is basically worthless. (Cause it's so small it's negligible.)
And when you have to go through work just to 0 your subjob's effect on your main job... THAT's the sign of a bad subjob.

Cure4: saves your life
FC: let's see... You argue that +0%FC > -95% cast time... Cause THAT makes sense... A job that lives off of it's enhancing magic... SS namely... Surely will NOT benefit from 2s cast times...
MAB: yeah... Increasing your Lunge and Swipe damage... Which increases your enmity... Which lets you hold hate better... Yup... That's totally not helpful at all... 9_9
Haste: sure, it's not JA haste... So it doesn't give you crazy delay reduction... But then...

And I realize that this is a VERY hard concept for most ppl to grasp about RUN...

RUN is NOT a DD.

I think you have no idea how enmity works. Healing enmity is very weak sauce, a PLD or RUN relying on that will never be able to hold any hate at all, especially with RDM sub and Tranquil heart...

[Nakts]

This is kind of scary. For the devs to say something like this really indicates that they don't really have a full grasp on this job they created, or they don't really care what the problems are.


I see you're a PUP, so you should know that this is indeed the case.

[Martel]

The answer is PARRY. It always has been. The best parry rate we can get is 20% while the block rate cap is 65%. Not to mention that Paladins have a certain unnamed overpowered shield that allows them to reach 100% block rates. If you're trying to figure out why Rune Fencers are not at the same level as Paladin, that's why.Firstly, there is no block rate cap. Ochain's functionality is in no way cap breaking or unique. It just hits high levels of block rate much more easily. As high as 93% block rate has been seen on a normal size 3 shield(without reprisal/palisade.) This being killedar shield when it had +200 skill on the test server. There's no block cap. there's only, how much skill you have. Blockrates of 65%~ can still be observed on killedar or beatific given low enough level mobs.

Also, I've seen 28%~ parry rates even on PLD(low level mobs, mind you, but it does disprove a 20% cap). RUN can def hit higher rates than that.

Checking some old parry tests.... with 647 parry skilll, vs level 109 mobs, I had a 29.57% parry rate.

Now comparing that to Shields... Let's say, Aegis, vs the same 109 mobs.

Block% 39.08
DMG%- -81.8
Total PDT -31.9

Since a parry is effectively 100% dmg-, a 29.57% parry rate is literally 29.57% overall reduction. So all of 2% behind the physical defenses of an Aegis. Now, of course, Ochain, killedar, or beatific is gonna blow that outta the water, but it is interesting that Parry can compete with Aegis' physical defenses.

I do agree, though, that RUN needs a physical defenses buff. And enhancing parry would be a good way to do it. More battuta up time would help a lot.

On the same 109 mobs, with 647 skill and battuta up, I got a 64.8% parry rate. (4/5 merits)

Ochain has -66% dmg on block. So, at a 100% block rate, you get -66% overalll damage reduction. Thus a 64% parry rate is comparable with Ochain's over all dmg reduction. 0.0 Need more battuta duration here. <,<

[Zirael]

Greetings,

The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.
RUN currently gets most enmity by spamming runes to barely make do staying near enmity cap
that's totally unacceptable
let's remove enmity+ from runes then and add a Provoke-like job ability on a 30-180s recast timer instead

I see no logic in that.

[Mirage]

They should just not touch rune enmity and add another 30-60s provoke-like ability anyway.

[Trumpy]

I never understood why paladin, made for tanking, lacked a provoke or an ability just like it. War could tank a bit, but why was this given to them and not the actual tank class, forcing players to pretty much sub war. Ninja was not originally made for tanking, so i can understand it not having a provoke like feature. Run was made for tanking but lacks a provoke as well, granted i have only gotten run to 30 so i dunno how much enmity runes and such give. Also mystified me as to why they were given ninja like gear with no defenses (PDT and such) besides parry.

[Damane]

I never understood why paladin, made for tanking, lacked a provoke or an ability just like it. War could tank a bit, but why was this given to them and not the actual tank class, forcing players to pretty much sub war. Ninja was not originally made for tanking, so i can understand it not having a provoke like feature. Run was made for tanking but lacks a provoke as well, granted i have only gotten run to 30 so i dunno how much enmity runes and such give. Also mystified me as to why they were given ninja like gear with no defenses (PDT and such) besides parry.

because war was the get go tank from lvl 1 to lvl 50 before zilart expansion was released, and that makes sense

[Muras]

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

I was kinda getting this vibe from day one honestly, and felt much more apparent with the inspiration merits. I don't think going the evasion tank route is a bad idea either, but as you've said, the devs kinda hoped RUN would depend on support jobs to do it's main job, which is never a good idea. After messing around with RUN for a good long while, I have a couple thoughts of my own on the subject.

So after Inspiration was added, I found that Blink and Stoneskin were actually usable mid-battle. I also found they weren't very effective on anything high level. To me, these were meant to be RUN's Utsusemi for evading damage, but they're too weak. For Blink, it gives only two shadows, which are maybe 50% reliable at procing. On the other hand, Utsusemi: Ichi gives 3 shadows and is 100% reliable. And then there's Stoneskin which is still capped at 350 without any special cap breaking equipment. 350 damage isn't even worth a single auto attack from high level mobs at times.

So I think it's pretty obvious that Blink and Stoneskin could be brought up into modern times. Blink is a Lv19 spell (For WHM) that has not changed at all since the time you learn it since enhancing magic skill does nothing (Like most other enhancing spells). Blink should give more shadows, either by changing the spell itself to accomodate for higher enhancing magic (A buff for everyone), or through a trait or equipment for RUN (A buff only for RUN). I'd have Blink give 6 shadows. For enhancing magic I'd do (2 + (Enhancing Magic / 100)), so 6 at skill 400+. For a trait, I'd have RUN gain multiple tiers of it so that by Lv99 they'd have 6 shadows (Maybe two traits, one at Lv50, one at 95 or so? +2 shadows for each). Or, for equipment, just give +4 extra shadows, kinda how NIN's Empyrean feet give extra shadows to Utsusemi (http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Iga_Kyahan_%2B2). Since we haven't had RUN's Empyrean armor added yet, this might be a good thing to consider adding to it.

Why 6 shadows though? Because again, Blink isn't exactly 100% reliable like Utsusemi, of which a NIN main can get 5 from Utsusemi: Ni with Empy feet. For one extra shadow compared to a NIN tank, which doesn't proc 100%, seems to be a fair thing to me. Also, Blink and Utsusemi can't be up at the same time, so there shouldn't be any worry about RUN/NINs being overpowered from having more blink shadows.

And for Stoneskin... Well, it just needs to give more than 350, which is the amount it was balanced at for Lv75 cap. 700+ seems a bit outragous, perhaps, but maybe 500ish? Again, can have enhancing magic effect it properly by removing the cap, or adding a trait to RUN, or a piece of RUN equipment that adds a decent bonus that's more than +10 to +20 like current pieces.

Inquartata could be a bit more powerful. Either by boosting the parry rate even more, or perhaps having a "partial parry" check when a full parry doesn't occur. Full parry would be -100% damage as it currently is, but a partial parry could be 25-50% damage reduced. So 20% chance for a full parry, then 50% for a partial parry to occur, so overall you'd have a 70% chance of some kind of damage reduction occuring.

Or, let Battuta last longer so I can have it up more than 30% of the time while I'm tanking 100% of the time, heh.

I just want to make it clear to the devs I really don't want to see changes occur to other jobs so they make better SJs as a fix to RUN. Buffing SAM or NIN to fix RUN just seems like taking the long road, and just wrong overall. RUN should be able to do it's thing entirely on it's own (As any job), with SJs being there strictly for support. RUN should have the choice of a variety of SJs depending on the goal they hope to achieve and not locked into a specific setup for all eternity with /sam or /nin for any serious content.

Oh, on a small note... If you remove enmity entirely from runes, does this mean they'll be on 1 second timers or less (This would be awesome)? Since you halved the enmity along with the recast in the previous update and all...

[Damane]

I was kinda getting this vibe from day one honestly, and felt much more apparent with the inspiration merits. I don't think going the evasion tank route is a bad idea either, but as you've said, the devs kinda hoped RUN would depend on support jobs to do it's main job, which is never a good idea. After messing around with RUN for a good long while, I have a couple thoughts of my own on the subject.

So after Inspiration was added, I found that Blink and Stoneskin were actually usable mid-battle. I also found they weren't very effective on anything high level. To me, these were meant to be RUN's Utsusemi for evading damage, but they're too weak. For Blink, it gives only two shadows, which are maybe 50% reliable at procing. On the other hand, Utsusemi: Ichi gives 3 shadows and is 100% reliable. And then there's Stoneskin which is still capped at 350 without any special cap breaking equipment. 350 damage isn't even worth a single auto attack from high level mobs at times.

So I think it's pretty obvious that Blink and Stoneskin could be brought up into modern times. Blink is a Lv19 spell (For WHM) that has not changed at all since the time you learn it since enhancing magic skill does nothing (Like most other enhancing spells). Blink should give more shadows, either by changing the spell itself to accomodate for higher enhancing magic (A buff for everyone), or through a trait or equipment for RUN (A buff only for RUN). I'd have Blink give 6 shadows. For enhancing magic I'd do (2 + (Enhancing Magic / 100)), so 6 at skill 400+. For a trait, I'd have RUN gain multiple tiers of it so that by Lv99 they'd have 6 shadows (Maybe two traits, one at Lv50, one at 95 or so? +2 shadows for each). Or, for equipment, just give +4 extra shadows, kinda how NIN's Empyrean feet give extra shadows to Utsusemi (http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Iga_Kyahan_%2B2). Since we haven't had RUN's Empyrean armor added yet, this might be a good thing to consider adding to it.

Why 6 shadows though? Because again, Blink isn't exactly 100% reliable like Utsusemi, of which a NIN main can get 5 from Utsusemi: Ni with Empy feet. For one extra shadow compared to a NIN tank, which doesn't proc 100%, seems to be a fair thing to me. Also, Blink and Utsusemi can't be up at the same time, so there shouldn't be any worry about RUN/NINs being overpowered from having more blink shadows.

And for Stoneskin... Well, it just needs to give more than 350, which is the amount it was balanced at for Lv75 cap. 700+ seems a bit outragous, perhaps, but maybe 500ish? Again, can have enhancing magic effect it properly by removing the cap, or adding a trait to RUN, or a piece of RUN equipment that adds a decent bonus that's more than +10 to +20 like current pieces.

Inquartata could be a bit more powerful. Either by boosting the parry rate even more, or perhaps having a "partial parry" check when a full parry doesn't occur. Full parry would be -100% damage as it currently is, but a partial parry could be 25-50% damage reduced. So 20% chance for a full parry, then 50% for a partial parry to occur, so overall you'd have a 70% chance of some kind of damage reduction occuring.

Or, let Battuta last longer so I can have it up more than 30% of the time while I'm tanking 100% of the time, heh.

I just want to make it clear to the devs I really don't want to see changes occur to other jobs so they make better SJs as a fix to RUN. Buffing SAM or NIN to fix RUN just seems like taking the long road, and just wrong overall. RUN should be able to do it's thing entirely on it's own (As any job), with SJs being there strictly for support. RUN should have the choice of a variety of SJs depending on the goal they hope to achieve and not locked into a specific setup for all eternity with /sam or /nin for any serious content.

Oh, on a small note... If you remove enmity entirely from runes, does this mean they'll be on 1 second timers or less (This would be awesome)? Since you halved the enmity along with the recast in the previous update and all...

jobs have allways been locked to specific 2-3 subjobs to be efficience, I dont see why this shouldnt account for RUN. However i think RUN needs a bit more help.

I mean SCH is tied either to RDM or BLM subjob, considering their task
WAR is tied to either SAM or NIN subjob, considering their task
BLU is tied to either WAR NIN or RDM subjob
NIN is tied to either WAR and ... WAR (unless solo then DNC maybe)
the list goes on.

a PLD will sub WAR too for his tasks.

I dont see a problem with that, but the core mechanics of the Job arent yet there where they are supposed to be. A parry increase job trait that surpasses the 20% parry cap rate would definitly help.

[Muras]

Yeah, all jobs are still limited to certain SJs to a varying degree, I'm just saying RUN shouldn't NEED to use /NIN or /SAM to do what they're meant to do. Basically, they should still be able to tank even without a SJ period (Although it would be very inefficient). The support job is just something that's supposed to support and enhance the skills that're already (supposed to be) there. Still, I think we're on the same page here... I'm not saying RUN should be able to use anything as a support job, just that choosing something other than /NIN or /SAM shouldn't utterly destroy it's ability to perform it's role.

Also, the job trait Inquartata is a job trait that surpasses the parry cap rate. If I'm not mistaken, the rate for all other jobs is actually around 7-10% while Inquartata boosts it to around 17-19% or something. This is why I suggested it to be stronger... It really goes to show how weak parrying, not just for RUN but for all jobs, really is on it's own. It's kinda funny, because Shield for PLD used to work just like parrying way back in the day too... Low proc rate, but 100% damage reduction. They changed it to the current system because it was too unreliable, just like parrying is for RUN. That's why I suggested partial parrying, since it kinda works like shield but isn't quite as strong since you can still get full parries too.

[Cljader1]

PLDs cast cures when:
-You don't have a WHM
-Your WHM is slow, busy, or other wise unable to cast.
-You don't trust your WHM to do it fast enough.
-Your HP is so damn low not even a cure 6 is gonna cap you.
-You've got nothing better to do.

Cure enmity is pathetic. The only reason to cure for enmity is cause you have nothing else decent to cast. It's been getting worse as the level cap rose already. Then they nerfed the heck outta it during the major enmity adjustments. But subbing RDM just kills it even more. Do you know what Tranquil Heart is? Look it up. You clearly need to do more research on a great many levels.
Where exactly did I say to use /SAM. Or mention /SAM at all? You're showing a lack of reading comprehension here.
The fast cast cap is 80%. With inspiration, RUN can easily cap. Thus, the /RDM fast cast trait isn't gonna do anything.

My argument states the presence of a WHM. In this case there is ZERO need to haste yourself. I also acknowledged the utility of /RDM as a solo sub.

MAB is nice. We all like better swipe/lunge. But 25 MAB is entirely insufficient to make /RDM worth using for tanking purposes.
Do you see me mentioning RUN's DPS ANYWHERE in that post? Where did I call it a DD? Did you actually read my post. Or just skim it then spew your preconceptions based on what others have said about RUN before all over the forum?

Do you even play run? I see you as just being a Contrarian, you keep saying what you didn't say...Say something with substance. If you say /rdm is a poor subjob choice (which I highly disagree with) what are you saying is a good subjob choice?

[Kensagaku]

I've made this argument before, but I'll make it again to explain why /Rdm is a poor subjob except in some solo situations.

1) Fast Cast - With Inspiration at 5/5, Vallation/Valiance gives 50% Fast Cast. With Futhark Trousers worn on activation of either JA, that now becomes 60%. Combine that with the Runeist's Bandeau, which is 10% Fast Cast, and now we have 70% Fast Cast. Suddenly, we only need 10% Fast Cast to cap off the maximum Fast Cast value of 80%. This is accomplished numerous ways, one of the easiest ways simply being Orvail Pants +1 (6%) and Chelona Boots (4%) to cap you off. Therefore, /rdm's fast cast is worthless.

2) Spell list - Haste and Cure IV are nice, but /whm grants them in solo situations just the same, as well as providing -na spells and Erase, not to mention Reraise for tricky battles. The only other spells that /rdm provides of any use are debuffs... and while you'll land those in WoE (one of the places I *do* condone /rdm as sub), any serious content you'll be resisted anyway thanks to subjob enfeebling skill. Phalanx? Got it. Refresh? Got it.

3) MAB II's lack of value - While this helps our Swipe and Lunge abilities a little, the effect isn't particularly huge. Additionally, with the JA delay, you're just slowing yourself down unless it's a last hit. Resolution will do more than Lunge, and thus generate more enmity in the short term if you're tanking. And it won't eat your runes, which if you're soloing, means you won't get eaten for your sudden lack of magic evasion. Mind you, these are small arguments; MAB II just plays such a small role and with the other two factors, /rdm is not a good subjob in most situations.

Now, if you've actually read the thread (shocking, I know! Who doesn't come into the middle of a thread without reading previous posts?) then you'd note that several subjobs were mentioned as ideal, and justification given for them. /WHM for a solo sub, providing almost all of the benefits of /RDM and then some. /SAM for a alliance sub, so you can switch between DD and emergency tanking. /NIN for situations where you're the full tank and need to mitigate physical damage substantially. These are your ideal subs as a Rune Fencer. It's not to say /RDM doesn't have some niche values, but it's just that: niche.

[Cljader1]

Now, if you've actually read the thread (shocking, I know! Who doesn't come into the middle of a thread without reading previous posts?) then you'd note that several subjobs were mentioned as ideal, and justification given for them. /WHM for a solo sub, providing almost all of the benefits of /RDM and then some. /SAM for a alliance sub, so you can switch between DD and emergency tanking. /NIN for situations where you're the full tank and need to mitigate physical damage substantially. These are your ideal subs as a Rune Fencer. It's not to say /RDM doesn't have some niche values, but it's just that: niche.

Now I would say that you are the one that's not reading, seeing that I've made several posts starting from the very beginning and did not come in the middle of the thread. I also laid out and argument on why whm & rdm are very good subs, first starting with the cures both subs provide. Run can spam cure spells faster than any other job in the game. Furthermore, /rdm also gives you "Convert," those times where your low on mp you and Battuta-->Stoneskin-->Elemental Sforzo-->Convert-->Cure IV+Vivi stack and your back in the game. A tank needs to be somewhat self reliant and /sam just does not do it and /nin is bad also there too many end game mobs that will wipe all your shadows and damage you all with one attack. The almost instantaneous cures and with a vivi stack is damn near priceless and shadows or /sam just can't stack up

[Martel]

Run can spam cure spells faster than any other job in the game. WHM and RUN have exactly the same casting speed on cures. -80% cast time(this being the cap.) And so does RDM, and SCH. And every other job that can hit the fast cast cap. Although that was most of em right there, I think.

You would cast faster than a PLD. But I generally let the WHM do the curing when I'm PLD.


Do you even play run? I see you as just being a Contrarian, you keep saying what you didn't say...Say something with substance. If you say /rdm is a poor subjob choice (which I highly disagree with) what are you saying is a good subjob choice?If someone quoted you, then went on a rant about something that had nothing to do with your post, you wouldn't feel the need to note that you didn't say anything like that? Well, maybe that wouldn't bother you. But people trying to put their words in my mouth seriously puts my back up.

If objecting to the use of a support job that offers... nothing of substance, in a non-solo situation where support jobs are present makes me contrarian. Then I must be.

Now, can we establish the context here? Maybe if I do it loud enough, No one will jump down my throat over things I didn't say.

I've twice before now(let this be the third then. No more, No less.) Noted the utility of /RDM as a solo sub. Go ahead and add lowman to that too. Specifically, lacking decent support, /RDM has its benefits.

I'm speaking of RUN as a tank, not a soloist.

The time when I don't think /RDM worth using(at all) is when a WHM(or even SCH) is present. Cures, covered. Better cures than yours, with higher potency, and better mp efficiency. Haste? Covered. Convert? Well, I'll toss you a devotion. But you're not self curing, the heck are you burning all your MP on? Or better yet, let's just bring a bard and put up some ballads.

If RUN is seriously being used as a Tank, this kind of support should not be unreasonable. So what does /RDM still offer that makes it worth using? And if you're getting beat down so bad that a WHM can't keep you up without you pitching in cures too, well... Probably not something RUN can reasonable tank then. Or you need shadows to survive, assuming even they'd save you. Although, certainly, there are a lot of mobs shadows don't help much on. In which case, you still wouldn't be /RDM.

I can do some write ups on enmity generation focused subs if you'd like. So long as the proper context is kept in mind for said subs. Kensagaku didn't leave much for me to say about more general subs.

[Selindrile]

Run can spam cure spells faster than any other job in the game.

Nahtirah Hat -10%
Pahtli Cape -8%
Loquacious Earring -2%
Repartie Gloves -2%
Heka's Kalasiris -15%
Orvail Pants +1 = -5%
Incantor Stone = -2%
Orunmila's Torque = -5%
Genbu's Shield = -1~8%
Prolix Ring = -2%
Witful Belt = -3%
Chelona Boots +1 = -5%
Swith Cape +1 = -4%
Atinian Staff +1 = -2%

This is all off the top of my head I'm sure there are plenty more options out there, Whm, Sch, Rdm, Run can hit -80% cap in their sleep. Blm, Brd, Geo, Smn, Pup (lol) can all the cap (Or almost in Pup's case) with Rdm or Sch sub.

/Rdm isn't terribly great, Convert is situationally useful, but not all that much. It obviously depends on your target, but on most targets /Nin (Shadows are great for many things), /Dnc (stun and waltzes are pretty cost efficient cures), and even /Blu (head butt, refueling and cocoon), will be more efficient at reducing/or curing back damage taken over time than /Rdm ever really is. Sam is a better option for when you're primarily offense, but may occasionally tank. Or War for the same type of situation where you might need Berserk/Aggressor. And as Kensagaku pointed out, the extra fast cast from /Rdm is useless with the proper gear.

You're really making an argument for Cure4 and Convert, nothing else, and they're very inefficient versus the other options. The only time I generally have Cure4 on Run is when I'm /Whm, and that's primarily for -na spells or supporting a partner with Barspells/Cures/Haste. (Duoed souls for a while with a Thf.)

While there are situations where Rdm is a decent solo sub, even that is less frequent than Nin, Blu, or Dnc and Whm as a solo sub.

[Cljader1]

Nahtirah Hat -10%
Pahtli Cape -8%
Loquacious Earring -2%
Repartie Gloves -2%
Heka's Kalasiris -15%
Orvail Pants +1 = -5%
Incantor Stone = -2%
Orunmila's Torque = -5%
Genbu's Shield = -1~8%
Prolix Ring = -2%
Witful Belt = -3%
Chelona Boots +1 = -5%
Swith Cape +1 = -4%
Atinian Staff +1 = -2%

That's alot of gear to equal a run/rdm native cure casting speed,




You're really making an argument for Cure4 and Convert, nothing else, and they're very inefficient versus the other options. The only time I generally have Cure4 on Run is when I'm /Whm, and that's primarily for -na spells or supporting a partner with Barspells/Cures/Haste. (Duoed souls for a while with a Thf.)

While there are situations where Rdm is a decent solo sub, even that is less frequent than Nin, Blu, or Dnc and Whm as a solo sub.

/rdm adds more Mp, Cure3, Cure4, MaB, Convert, Fast Cast, Sneak, Invisible, Haste, Raise (on a very fast timer), much more efficient and safer way to tank than third eye Seigan or /nin shadows (shadows are not what they use to be) alot boss mobs go through shadows like they were non existent (not a viable option IMO) and in lowman situation you cant rely on a mage to babysit you, you got to win and that means being more self reliant so I go /rdm

[Selindrile]

That's alot of gear to equal a run/rdm native cure casting speed,

Rdm: Caps Curecast in 2 peices.
Sch: Caps Curecast with only fastcast peices they'd use anyway.
Whm: Caps Curecast because it's one of their most important functions anyway
Blm and Brd and Geo may or may not cap curecast, some do, some don't.

I was mainly pointing out that others, many of them, cap out on cure cast time just like Run, Run is not really exceptional in this way.



/rdm adds more Mp, Cure3, Cure4, MaB, Convert, Fast Cast, Sneak, Invisible, Haste, Raise (on a very fast timer), much more efficient and safer way to tank than third eye Seigan or /nin shadows (shadows are not what they use to be) alot boss mobs go through shadows like they were non existent (not a viable option IMO) and in lowman situation you cant rely on a mage to babysit you, you got to win and that means being more self reliant so I go /rdm

Cure3: Same function as Cure4, /Whm also offers this and if you need -na spells as well or to support others, this is the better choice.
Cure4: Same as above.
MaB: Not a huge effect on lunge which is not a huge portion of your damage.
Convert: This is one of the good parts of the sub, it just doesn't outweigh the things others offer.
Fastcast: Irellevant/Useless, you cap in 2 easy to get peices and 1 you want to get anyway without it.
Sneak/Invisible: /Nin, /Dnc, Whm offer sneak and invisible.
Haste: Whm offers Haste also, Blu Refueling, and Sam Hasso with a JA haste component.
Raise: Not relevant when you're talking about soloing, and when you're not, /Whm also covers this and allows you to Barspell AoE and -na spells, most notably stona.

If you think handling damage with Cure is more efficient and safer on most mobs than shadows or TP or even Cocoon and Wild Carrot, you are seriously misinformed, generally anything that Shadows are not terribly useful on, you're better off subbing /Blu or /Dnc for the stun on a low timer to stun aoe spells. I'll give you that Seigan/Third eye isn't terribly efficient but that's again, mostly an offensive sub with a defensive option.

I'm not saying there are no situations I'd recommend /Rdm, I'm simply saying they're few and far between.

[Cljader1]

Rdm: Caps Curecast in 2 peices.
Sch: Caps Curecast with only fastcast peices they'd use anyway.
Whm: Caps Curecast because it's one of their most important functions anyway
Blm and Brd and Geo may or may not cap curecast, some do, some don't.

I was mainly pointing out that others, many of them, cap out on cure cast time just like Run, Run is not really exceptional in this way.



Cure3: Same function as Cure4, /Whm also offers this and if you need -na spells as well or to support others, this is the better choice.
Cure4: Same as above.
MaB: Not a huge effect on lunge which is not a huge portion of your damage.
Convert: This is one of the good parts of the sub, it just doesn't outweigh the things others offer.
Fastcast: Irellevant/Useless, you cap in 2 easy to get peices and 1 you want to get anyway without it.
Sneak/Invisible: /Nin, /Dnc, Whm offer sneak and invisible.
Haste: Whm offers Haste also, Blu Refueling, and Sam Hasso with a JA haste component.
Raise: Not relevant when you're talking about soloing, and when you're not, /Whm also covers this and allows you to Barspell AoE and -na spells, most notably stona.

If you think curing with MP is more efficient and safer on most mobs than shadows or even cocoon often enough, you are seriously misinformed, generally anything that Shadows are not terribly useful on, you're better off subbing /Blu or /Dnc for the stun on a low timer to stun aoe spells. I'll give you that Seigan/Third eye isn't terribly efficient but that's again, mostly an offensive sub with a defensive option.

I'm not saying there are no situations I'd recommend /Rdm, I'm simply saying they're few and far between.

If you say anything /whm you are essentially agreeing with me, since my position is that /whm or /rdm are the best tanking sub for run. So your /whm argument is null and void, as for the rest of your argument you picked out several different subjobs to compare them to the utility of /rdm, you are proving my argument for me. In case you missed it the first time, I'll state my position for you again /rdm or /whm are the best tanking subs for run, they offer more durability, survivability, and helps creates a more self reliant tank.

[Selindrile]

/Whm is a terrible tank sub, though not as bad as /Rdm, it's a good lowman/solo sub at times and generally better than Rdm at those times.

I'm comparing everything to /Rdm because I'm refuting your arguments, not making any points for you.

Whm and Rdm as subjob make you less durable, and in some cases they make you more self reliant, and in others less, depending on the target, reguardless, the tradeoff while you're in a position to actually tank in a group, is rarely worthwhile.

[saevel]

3) MAB II's lack of value - While this helps our Swipe and Lunge abilities a little, the effect isn't particularly huge. Additionally, with the JA delay, you're just slowing yourself down unless it's a last hit. Resolution will do more than Lunge, and thus generate more enmity in the short term if you're tanking. And it won't eat your runes, which if you're soloing, means you won't get eaten for your sudden lack of magic evasion. Mind you, these are small arguments; MAB II just plays such a small role and with the other two factors, /rdm is not a good subjob in most situations.

Umm what kind of crap gear do you have? I have Lunge doing 3.5~4.2K depending on targets MDB, your not hitting that with resolution unless your fighting old level 75 mobs due to reso's -15% attack penalty. The FC from /RDM is utterly useless as RUN gets 60% naturally and the other 20% from 3 pieces of gear. /WHM gives you Haste, Dia II and Cure IV along with -na, erase, reraise and aoe barspells for when your screwing around with friends doing random stuff. VP with 3x dark runes gives you about 200MP every 60s along with your natural refresh, RUN has a decent MP restoration when it needs it. So your down to 24 MAB from MAB II as the only real defining characteristic of /RDM. /RDM is pretty much useless to RUN because RUN was built as melee RDM v3, almost all the tools and tricks are shared.

RUN ain't going to "tank" sh!t for the most part, its really good at taking minimum damage from magic aoe's and providing that protection to the party. You have an emergency 90s "tank" mode you can switch into, it's not perfect and physical TP moves from dangerous NM's will still smack you around, but you can at least hold your old while the party reorganizes. Lunge / Swipe are both great damage provided your using an appropriate gear set, notably on monsters that are weak to magic damage.

After experimenting with different subs in party situations, I've found that /DRK seems to work the best, especially if you have a Crobaci +2. You'll still have your 6-hit (pretty much impossible to get a 5-hit on RUN without sacrificing a ton of multi-attack) while also gaining a solid 3/5 DPS boost and a couple more hate tools for when you do have to control the situation. Stun -> Flash -> Foil is a great way to piss something off. SE and LR also have a decent VE boost though cancel SE our and use LR for the extra damage hate, -15% defense shouldn't be making or breaking fights but the 15% additional attack / JA haste is definitely good to have.

Really didn't like what Hasso did to our recasts, even with 80% FC and gear + haste spell, it just wasn't very good. /WAR seems to be lacking and really only offers Provoke and Berserk. /NIN was for when I absolutely didn't want to get hit, but honestly too many things have aoe shadow stripping moves. Ichi was nearly instant cast though and Ni had a stupidly low recast.

[Damane]

If you say anything /whm you are essentially agreeing with me, since my position is that /whm or /rdm are the best tanking sub for run. So your /whm argument is null and void, as for the rest of your argument you picked out several different subjobs to compare them to the utility of /rdm, you are proving my argument for me. In case you missed it the first time, I'll state my position for you again /rdm or /whm are the best tanking subs for run, they offer more durability, survivability, and helps creates a more self reliant tank.

/whm and /rdm are horrible subs to tank as RUN, like seriously, they dont help you at all. if you seriously want to tank as RUN i would rather recommend /blu (if shadows and seigan dont help, cocoon is really godlike for raw damage taken and the other trais/spells you get arent that bad and offer more then /rdm or /whm), /nin or /sam. obviously if you go /nin i would opt for a ruinator setup

[Cljader1]

/whm and /rdm are horrible subs to tank as RUN, like seriously, they dont help you at all. if you seriously want to tank as RUN i would rather recommend /blu (if shadows and seigan dont help, cocoon is really godlike for raw damage taken and the other trais/spells you get arent that bad and offer more then /rdm or /whm), /nin or /sam. obviously if you go /nin i would opt for a ruinator setup

/blu is not a bad sub I use to use it alot, cocoon refueling and wild carrot are plenty much the only spells I found useful due to no native blu magic skill. However, the problem is wild carrot and refueling both of which are inferior to cure IV and Haste. /Rdm and /Whm allows you to have multiple cure timers with higher potency, /rdm allows better mp efficiency do to Convert, while /whm allows you to restore bigger chunks of Hp

[Vivivivi]

I did some more testing, these results are just from observations and not reviewing/comparing the battle log though so they're my opinion at best:
-the RDM sub was most useful in party situations where the enemy spammed debuffs, removing the fast cast buff (Kumhau). The native trait with some gear to enhance fast cast really helped get buffs back up.

I experimented with /nin and /sam and /war also, here's where I found them most useful:
/nin worked better than I would have expected situationally. For fun I tried to solo AA MR on very easy. I tried at first /RDM, and running out of MP was the biggest issue and was KO'd when I ran out of magic. Comparatively, when I tried /nin I didn't need to heal much at all aside from the occasional vivacious pulse. As long as I had the fast cast buff up I could get shadows back up without issues. If I had fast cast and battuata, I could get any spells off that I wanted every time. I still didn't win that fight, but it was mainly because I got charmed about 20 minutes in (MR's health was about a quarter left) and I didn't think to use tenebrae to resist charm, so I might try it again /nin. The main issue with /nin was that it's only really effective if the enemies don't use AOE spells or moves, so it's really a situational sub.

/sam - again, I didn't log a sample to compare, but it did seem like I got the most damage boost from this, and a noticeable gain in TP accumulation. I added seigan/third eye to my wards macro, then switched to hasso when my hp was out of the yellow and/or before weaponskills. However (at least with GS) I couldn't find a combination for self skillchains that combined would outdo just two back to back resolutions. I haven't looked into possibilities for sword, axe or GA yet though. But as far as /sam's usefulness... other than doing some simple soloing for job points or records of eminence, I couldn't find a practical use for this in a party situation. When I get a rare invite to join something on RUN, it's never as a DD or even a main tank, so I struggled to find a real use case for /sam in a group setting.

/war I did find helpful in certain situations, specifically in level 109 BC paper fights. Provoke was helpful for flipping the mob to target myself when wards were down. We tried a setup where the paladin supertanked all of the mobs, and then myself on rune fencer would pick off one of the mobs at a time and act as an off-tank, similar to how warrior is used in FF14 in many ways. I didn't do the kind of damage the 2 DRK's did in my group obviously, but I was (surprisingly) able to keep enmity on myself most of the time. Aggressor was also helpful to push my accuracy up just high enough when I saw I was missing a lot. Berserk was also handy when we got down to the final two enemies and the Paladin was tanking the targets we were fighting.

I haven't tried /blu yet, but after seeing some of the other comments I'm kind of curious to try it. I'm a little skeptical because of the low blue magic skill, but for self buffs it might not matter as much. I still haven't found a "go-to" subjob for rune fencer yet, but I'm leaning mostly on RDM at the moment for it's flexibility to cure others and keep hastes going all around. Macroing convert/vivacious pulse is a lifesaver as well.

[Damane]

/blu is not a bad sub I use to use it alot, cocoon refueling and wild carrot are plenty much the only spells I found useful due to no native blu magic skill. However, the problem is wild carrot and refueling both of which are inferior to cure IV and Haste. /Rdm and /Whm allows you to have multiple cure timers with higher potency, /rdm allows better mp efficiency do to Convert, while /whm allows you to restore bigger chunks of Hp

if you are tanking you are/should be in a party environment, so in that case you have a healer which makes /rdm or /whm even more poientless, otherwise its not tanking its just playing solo, which makes this conversation totally pointless. In any situation where you are tanking as a RUN with party environment and on anything harder then trash mobs, /blu or /sam or /nin, depending on the situation, everything else will hurt you more then help you.

[Cljader1]

if you are tanking you are/should be in a party environment, so in that case you have a healer which makes /rdm or /whm even more poientless, otherwise its not tanking its just playing solo, which makes this conversation totally pointless. In any situation where you are tanking as a RUN with party environment and on anything harder then trash mobs, /blu or /sam or /nin, depending on the situation, everything else will hurt you more then help you.

I highly disagree, /rdm and /whm IMO are the best subs for RUN, although I prefer /rdm for the convert stack "Convert, /wait 1, Vivacious Pulse, /wait 1, Cure IV" with this stack you can execute a Convert with 900 to 1000 HP coming back to you.

[Damane]

I highly disagree, /rdm and /whm IMO are the best subs for RUN, although I prefer /rdm for the convert stack "Convert, /wait 1, Vivacious Pulse, /wait 1, Cure IV" with this stack you can execute a Convert with 900 to 1000 HP coming back to you.

this has to be a joke right? you kind of lost all credibility in my eyes. I dont see a reason why this should ever be used as a tanking RUN in party environment (which is the point of haveing a tank). And if your answer is to gain more hate via cures, than its megafail combined with tranquil heart.

[Lithera]

Maybe he just doesn't trust his whms or schs. There are plenty of lacklustre healers out there. I know of one who goes afk during a fight and then leaves you wondering when/if they will ever come back. Or they afk without warning pre-pull. Granted they do have children and thus get child agro from time to time but even when they are there you might as well have a mule of someone who doesn't dual box very well because there isn't that much difference.

[Cljader1]

this has to be a joke right? you kind of lost all credibility in my eyes. I dont see a reason why this should ever be used as a tanking RUN in party environment (which is the point of haveing a tank). And if your answer is to gain more hate via cures, than its megafail combined with tranquil heart.

Where did I ever say use cures for hate?? Learn to read my post, my position are that cures enhance reliability, durability and survivability for run tanking. Nowhere did I say use cures as a hate tool, don't put words in my mouth.

[Damane]

Where did I ever say use cures for hate?? Learn to read my post, my position are that cures enhance reliability, durability and survivability for run tanking. Nowhere did I say use cures as a hate tool, don't put words in my mouth.

/sam /nin /blu add the same and much more regarding durability. This assumes of course you have a healer that doesnt suck.

[Cljader1]

/sam /nin /blu add the same and much more regarding durability. This assumes of course you have a healer that doesnt suck.
Please enlighten me of how /sam increase your durability over /rdm /whm on run tanking?

[saevel]

I highly disagree, /rdm and /whm IMO are the best subs for RUN, although I prefer /rdm for the convert stack "Convert, /wait 1, Vivacious Pulse, /wait 1, Cure IV" with this stack you can execute a Convert with 900 to 1000 HP coming back to you.

This is epic fail. RUN doesn't have enough native MP for convert to be at all effective. If you need MP have 3x tenebre up and use VP, it'll come back much faster then depleting your 1900~2000 HP pool to single digits to refill 400~600MP.

Those subs are situation specific only and not "the best subs" at all unless your only out there soloing stuff with your trust NPCs.

[Cljader1]

This is epic fail. RUN doesn't have enough native MP for convert to be at all effective. If you need MP have 3x tenebre up and use VP, it'll come back much faster then depleting your 1900~2000 HP pool to single digits to refill 400~600MP.

Those subs are situation specific only and not "the best subs" at all unless your only out there soloing stuff with your trust NPCs.

I dont know about that my mp pool is 775, not 400-600. Moreover doing the convert stack nets me back about 1000Hp with 700ish mp and with battuta going that's more than enough to execute safely

[saevel]

99 Elvann RUN/RDM has 2000 HP about 600MP with 15/15 HP merits (everyone in the game should have this now).

Since your /WHM or /RDM you have absolute sh!t healing magic skill so your cure IV's are going to be 500~600 HP vs the 800~900 they usually are. At 88 MP each you'll spend 300 (600HP cured) ~ 364 (500HP cured) MP to bring you back to full.

RUN should never ever be using convert. If your in a situation where your HP isn't full and you need MP, chances are that bringing you HP to ~30 will get you killed. If your not in danger of dieing then just use VP to restore ~200 MP and 200HP per use along with refresh.

Now stop pretending you know what the heck your talking about cause it's obvious you don't.

[Cljader1]

99 Elvann RUN/RDM has 2000 HP about 600MP with 15/15 HP merits (everyone in the game should have this now).

Since your /WHM or /RDM you have absolute sh!t healing magic skill so your cure IV's are going to be 500~600 HP vs the 800~900 they usually are. At 88 MP each you'll spend 300 (600HP cured) ~ 364 (500HP cured) MP to bring you back to full.

RUN should never ever be using convert. If your in a situation where your HP isn't full and you need MP, chances are that bringing you HP to ~30 will get you killed. If your not in danger of dieing then just use VP to restore ~200 MP and 200HP per use along with refresh.

Now stop pretending you know what the heck your talking about cause it's obvious you don't.

Obviously this is something you never did, convert stack is damn near instantaneous. I'm not going to go over the protections run can use to execute a convert stack again if you dont get it you just dont get it. You can just continue to fail at run/sam tanking and whine to the developers to remove the penalty of hasso and siegan just so your theory to tank with run could prevail. Otherwise, /rdm /whm are my favorite ways to tank and maintain mp and it allows me to do a pretty good job at it too. If you think you have some special tanking ways why don't you lay out your agrument, instead of typing epic fail If your argument is that run is a dd then that itself is a fail of epic proportions drk war sam says hello to you.

[Kaeviathan]

It would be real helpful if Rune Fencer's Artifact/Relic equipment get a boost of +enmity. It would ease my inventory space since I use 12 inventory space to macro swap for an enmity set. Also give us spell interruption rate!! Paladins don't have much problem in having their spells interrupted since they tend to block more damage than we could parry.

[Martel]

It would be real helpful if Rune Fencer's Artifact/Relic equipment get a boost of +enmity. It would ease my inventory space since I use 12 inventory space to macro swap for an enmity set.Agreed.

It's weird for a tank job to only have Enmity+ on 1/10 pieces of JSE(AF/Relic.) Not only does it cause inventory issues, but swapping to non-Ilv pieces with no magic evasion and terrible def is a defensive concern.
Sure, you just swap for a second on JA, but RUN uses a ton of JA.

And considering the adjustments to enmity gear, RUN needs enmity+ on their PDT/Tanking gear as well, to reduce enmity loss.


Also give us spell interruption rate!! Paladins don't have much problem in having their spells interrupted since they tend to block more damage than we could parry.I'd think a job with 80% fast cast and native aquaveil wouldn't have too many issues with being interrupted. Barring tanking like 10~ mobs at once.

[Cljader1]

I would love to see run get more original unique spells, Camate said they will implement them, I wonder will run get "Reflect" its been in the data files for years. I would also like the development team to take another look at liement ward and embolden these are very lackluster JA's. At the very least liement ward shouldn't wipe off vallation/valiance.

[Kaeviathan]

Agreed.

It's weird for a tank job to only have Enmity+ on 1/10 pieces of JSE(AF/Relic.) Not only does it cause inventory issues, but swapping to non-Ilv pieces with no magic evasion and terrible def is a defensive concern.
Sure, you just swap for a second on JA, but RUN uses a ton of JA.

And considering the adjustments to enmity gear, RUN needs enmity+ on their PDT/Tanking gear as well, to reduce enmity loss.

I'd think a job with 80% fast cast and native aquaveil wouldn't have too many issues with being interrupted. Barring tanking like 10~ mobs at once.

That is true, but since the job is overwhelming with job abilities and magic, I'm having difficulty in making a macro for it. While I do have space for it, but it's more of a burden. I currently use 40 macros for the job. I sometimes screw up and use the wrong macro when I change lines, imagine having three macro lines ><.

[Halldir]

I looked it over a bit but /sch could be a better choice you the following;

A) Light/Dark Arts grants a much better skill rating on basically everything that defines RUN depending on which you're on.
B) You get all Status aliment removal with the exception of stona which you cant use anyway if it lands on you.
C) Dispel
D) Cure 3
E) SCH Job traits Resist Silence II Conserve MP Max MP Boost I all of which is usefull
F) /whm all you lose is Haste and Divine Seal
G /rdm all you lose is Haste again and Convert, Fast Cast and MAB 2

[Babekeke]

If you're somewhere that you can't use Trusts, Haste is better than anything that /SCH has to offer.

If you can use Trusts, sub /SAM for old-style content, or fighting single mobs, and sub /BLU for higher tier content, especially if you need to hold multiple mobs at once.

Don't get me wrong, I love /SCH on my BRD, but it doesn't really offer enough for RUN. Now if light arts regen bonus worked when subbed, then it could be a different story.