Please remove COP requirements on reforged relic and AF [Archive]

Olor

02-21-2014, 03:35 PM

I really am not trying to sound mean here but...

You have a forum join date of 3/11. That already is almost three years ago. You were probably playing before then. And somehow in three years, you've not only not beaten CoP (and therefore no Rajas???) but you haven't gotten Sea access?

I get having limited time to play, lately I am so wiped when I get home I get almost nothing done in game but... three years?! For one of the best FF storylines ever?

Sadness.

Everyone plays for different reasons. I enjoy doing difficult battles with friends, and mindlessly grinding fodder. I don't enjoy spending hours running between inconsequential cut scenes. I've worked on COP but crap like getting stuck on the two key thing for 6 months really slowed me down. It's good they removed that block, but even still its really tedious to spend my time reading the wiki trying to figure out what to do next (it is really frustrating actually) and then just running between battles that are inconsequential and cut scenes.

Maybe if the game actually told me what to do next step by step but spending the evening tediously reading FFXIcyclopedia to figure out what CS I missed and why can't I progress is a nightmare.

Honestly I don't get the judgy-ness this is a video game, I play to enjoy myself. When I stop enjoying myself the game will not be getting any more of my money. Getting dangerously close with content that is gated by unrelated mission progress.

Sfchakan

02-21-2014, 03:56 PM

This crap again, even after they nerfed CoP one more time.

Lithera

02-21-2014, 09:31 PM

Even though your only complaint from last time is that your friends in game are too busy with current stuff and that you find it boring to do because it didn't lead to current hard fights to do and that doing cop now is boring and tiresome because you are way above the difficulty cap for it. Yet like I and another poster have said you could have easily cleared CoP after the level caps were taken off when people were still doing it back then and when CoP related things were still being done and still a challenge.

You must be hating the SoA storyline right now since it has been all CS with fetch quests and omg only two fights. With at least two roadblocks that I know of. The please use enough tags part and the quest involving the raptor fights down in rala waterways. I know this as a friend of mine who just got SoA recently and got caught up in the missions couldn't get Levil to tell him where to go and meet the exorcist. All he would say is complain about the noise coming from the waterways.

Zarchery

02-21-2014, 10:12 PM

Good idea! But while you're at it, please remove the requirement to gather Rem's Tale Chapters too. I have limited play time too, and I don't really want to farm sparks or do battles for these fetch quests. I pay $16.95 every month, God knows the last thing I want to do with that money is actually play the game.

Mirage

02-21-2014, 11:34 PM

Please remove the requirement to log in to the game. I'm finding it difficult to fit FFXI into my schedule these days but I still want to progress.

Bamph

02-22-2014, 12:21 AM

Ummm.... I'm not 100% sure, but don't you need materials from Limbus/whatever to upgrade? Just like you need the delve megaboss items to upgrade relic to 119?

Ravenmore

02-22-2014, 12:40 AM

Ummm.... I'm not 100% sure, but don't you need materials from Limbus/whatever to upgrade? Just like you need the delve megaboss items to upgrade relic to 119?

You can skip it if you use more papers, for the 109 version.

Elexia

02-22-2014, 03:25 AM

Mirage

02-22-2014, 04:27 AM

hey that's unfair

i play tekken for the story

Lithera

02-22-2014, 04:53 AM

Wait wait wait wait...

Content that's been out since 2004..2005 at the most for progression, and you've been around for at least 3 years.....you never attempted to progress CoP? You do realize there's a pretty nice ring at the end of CoP...right? Though I figure the OP was being sarcastic because you can clear CoP, especially as a BSt, pretty damn quickly these days, with no level cap at that.

Main reason I feel the OP was being sarcastic because she stated she dislikes playing an RPG...yet wants to play Final Fantasy XI, an MMO and RPG.

Sadly they are not being sarcastic. They made similar posts in other threads saying the same thing. They only want to do current stuff or any thing strictly tied to the battle content in the game that doesn't involve "huge" restrictions/requirements while looking like the job they are playing as.

Karbuncle

02-22-2014, 06:08 AM

Everyone plays for different reasons. I enjoy doing difficult battles with friends, and mindlessly grinding fodder. I don't enjoy spending hours running between inconsequential cut scenes. I've worked on COP but crap like getting stuck on the two key thing for 6 months really slowed me down. It's good they removed that block, but even still its really tedious to spend my time reading the wiki trying to figure out what to do next (it is really frustrating actually) and then just running between battles that are inconsequential and cut scenes.

Maybe if the game actually told me what to do next step by step but spending the evening tediously reading FFXIcyclopedia to figure out what CS I missed and why can't I progress is a nightmare.

Honestly I don't get the judgy-ness this is a video game, I play to enjoy myself. When I stop enjoying myself the game will not be getting any more of my money. Getting dangerously close with content that is gated by unrelated mission progress.

Man, I sometimes think I've grown jaded in the years of gaming and crappy MMOs, thanks for the perspective.

completing Chains of Promathia was probably the best time I ever had in this game, and the story was fantastic, and the character likable and even lovable. Its truly one of the best experiences in any MMOs I've played. You really should burn through those "Tedious inconsequential cutscenes", because they're not really tedious or inconsequential. I mean, loads of content is locked out due to CoP, you can't do Dynamis Tavnazia, you can't get Rajas ring which is still a reasonable staple for many a job... No Diabolos for SMN, theres a lot to consider when it comes to CoP, not the least of which is relic/AF reforging.

You really should just finish it, I like the accessibility this game is bringing on but I don't think SE just needs to adjust every single detail simply for people who don't want to take an hour out of their AFK-in-Adoulin schedules to finish some cutscenes. Its less annoying than most of the crap i have to grit my teeth and grind through these days.

I get the fights aren't as fun and enjoyable as they once were due to everything being uncapped now, not having anyone to do it with, not being able to experience the payoff of winning a battlefield after hours of trying to win, sometimes days, all for the joy of success...

but the story itself is still reasonably enjoyable and the rewards are worth the effort, even to this day. I know it won't always be enjoyable for everyone, and mileage may vary, but In the end I don't dislike your idea, but I don't believe it necessary, it really can be blown through in like a days work.

Olor

02-25-2014, 11:03 AM

it really can be blown through in like a days work.

No, it can't. I've spent multiple days of playtime working on it. Look, I get that other people like doing missions. That's fine. I don't. I accept having to miss out on the specific rewards from completing those missions. I am not expecting to be given Alexander if I don't do ToAU. I'm not asking for a Raja's ring if I don't do COP. I am asking to be allow to have THE CHOICE to do CURRENT CONTENT that is COMPLETELY UNRELATED.

Honestly whether or not you personally enjoyed the missions is of no interest to me - it's my playtime.

I'm even willing to accept the restriction on AF since it was only upgradeable using Limbus before - but WHY would I be allowed to upgrade my relic to +2 without COP and then mysteriously be locked out of the final step. Look, upgrading my relic (which I got myself and enjoyed getting and had fun unlocking dynamis zones with my friends to get) was what got me to log in and renew my sub.

All you folks making fun of the fact that I'd like to do some relevant content rather being asked to go solo cut scenes (and I have worked on it, and I HATE HATE HATE IT - currently on 3 paths and it is agonizingly boring and confusing because the mission log is USELESS) - do you want me to quit? Cause that's what's going to happen. Maybe you personally don't care, but if the devs keep this up, no one will be left playing except people who did all of this stuff 8 years ago when it was CURRENT - WITH THEIR FRIENDS - HAVING FUN. And now you make fun of people like me that just want to ENJOY the game and play current stuff.

I don't understand why people would be against something that doesn't affect them. If you like doing missions, BRAVO - go do the missions.

Zarchery

02-25-2014, 01:39 PM

Well I think the big reason you are catching so much flak is because the obstruction you want removed is not a significant one at all. It's not like the Delve win or SKCNM Hard win requirement to reforge relic weapons, or the Voidwatch cities clear requirement to unlock Empyrean weapon skills. It's a set of easily soloable missions that any level 99 player could blast through solo. It's about as legit as asking to remove the requirement that you do the original Ark Angels fights before you can do the new ones.

You try to legitimize it by saying you have limited play time, but this is a silly excuse because you can take as long as you want. It'd probably take 25 hours tops to do the whole thing from start to finish. Do an hour a day and you're done in a month. Do more than an hour a day and you get done faster.

Teraniku

02-25-2014, 02:33 PM

completing Chains of Promathia was probably the best time I ever had in this game,

Was the same for me and the group I completed it with, was the best time I've ever had in this game.

Dragoy

02-25-2014, 05:45 PM

If it is indeed possible to upgrade the relic armour to +1 and +2 without Chains of Promathia progress (I can't remember/verify), I don't see why it should be required for the level 99 stages.

For the artifact armour it makes sense, but I probably wouldn't be against a change on that, too. It might be that this is the reason the relic armour is restricted as well, since they're using the same system (I guess).

I personally completed the story some years ago, but still after the level restrictions were lifted. It was, and remains to this day as one of the best times I've ever had. I did do it with a friend or few, and afterwards helped more people through it.

That said, I can imagine it is not fun for someone doing it alone, with no interest to the story whatsoever, and therefore would certainly not object removing any ties to content not directly connected to it.

But hey, it could be worse. ^^;

Lithera

02-25-2014, 09:48 PM

Relic upgrade to +1 used dynamis money and was done at the same npc as AF+1ing. So yes the same npc is now cockblocking.

Dragoy

02-25-2014, 10:47 PM

Lithera,

Yer, I'm aware of the same NPC doing it (not was doing it, by the by... ^^;), but I can't remember if I was ever able to see for myself if Sagheera will actually offer to restore the relic armour even if a character has no Chains of Promathia progress.

It would seem to be so, though, and if I really dig my memory holes, I think I seem to remember having a separate dialogue for artifacts, but the 2 times I have done that, I bet I always did get to Limbus before Dynamis... or did I.

Now I'm even more confuddled about my past...

What does it all mean!¿

fjamesfernandez

02-26-2014, 12:38 AM

LOL What kind of request is that? And I do agree that you've been playing how long? And obviously have a few mules that you are paying $16 in change and never completed? You have it easy with the HP warps now... Do you know the shit we had to do back then without the amount of warps we have now? Suck it up and play through the story line if you or anyone has issue with "time" and don't want to check wiki for the next thing to do, then either go play WOW or FFXIV(WOW). They will gladly hold your hand through everything and guess what you can do? SKIP SCENES for those who don't want to read or can't read.

Or just play normal RPGs on your normal hand held (DS) and home consoles (PS3/4/360/1). They already took off the level cap on CoP next you are going to complain about the Coffers and how time consuming it is to farm for relic armor.

SE ignore this crap and go fix Gulool jaja please thank you.

Lithera

02-26-2014, 02:44 AM

Yeah I'm not sure if you could either. I came to limbus when dynamis started to die course this was also after sky had already died. Finished CoP after the caps were lifted and a in game friend said they had some slots for my husband and me in their limbus shell. Was never really into upgrading relic til they made the trials for them. Still haven't finished the one I have for my smn top. Yeah, fjamesfernandez I feel for you being in the same room for a week waiting for one nm has to be rough. My complaining about how long it was taking to get bugbear strongman to pop for my empy weapon pales in comparison for waiting for a ToA leader to pop for your mythic.

Olor

02-27-2014, 09:13 AM

Relic upgrade to +1 used dynamis money and was done at the same npc as AF+1ing. So yes the same npc is now cockblocking.

You could skip from NQ to +2 just using forgotten items and the moogles. Why the heck would I only ONLY be able to +2 my relic but nothing else? It's stupid.

Lithera

02-27-2014, 10:01 AM

Because before you could even +2 relic you could only +1 them via the same npc you +1ed AF how hard is that to understand? I'm surprised you didn't already have some of bst relic +1 already concerning there were parts that were very nice to have.

Crevox

02-27-2014, 08:31 PM

So, I hadn't realized that relic reforges were also gated behind CoP progress until just now...

Please remove this requirement. I was really excited to play and work on reforging my relic equipment - finding out this is walled behind 300 cut scenes is really depressing and kills my will to play the game.

It's really unfair to lock unrelated content behind mission progress. I only have about 4-6 hours a week to play right now, so basically I'd have to spend all my time on cutscenes for weeks in order to actually work on improving my character. That's not fun.

I tried fighting this fight, and, well, look at the first page of comments. This is what happens.

I completely agree with you and hope that SE listens, but I've given up on trying to discuss it here.

EDIT: Strange that I can post even though my account is no longer active... I would've figured I wouldn't be able to.

Zarchery

02-27-2014, 10:18 PM

Guys it's cut scenes. You're not camping an NM for 2 weeks straight while doing nothing else or assembling a rigid alliance of skilled and strongly geared players. Just do it. You have to get rank 6 in one nation and beat most of the Zilart missions to get into the Ark Angel fights to get your seals (or spend more time farming sparks than it takes to get through CoP).

Olor you say "I only have 4-6 hours a week to play". Okay so where did you plan to get the time to farm the Rem's Chapters? Spend 2 of those hours each week and you'll be through it in 3 months. The relic reforge stuff will still be there. An MMO is all about the long haul, and if you really don't have time for a thing that doesn't take that much of it, you need to find another hobby.

Or just don't do the reforges and get some other kind of gear.

Frankly I wish they'd go in the other direction and require mission completion for more gear. Do something that actually incentives people to do this stuff so that people stuck on mission battlefields can actually find help.

Demonjustin

02-28-2014, 07:14 AM

I hope new people will take the time to enjoy the COP ROTZ TOAU WOTG SOA mission series which are a core part of the game's storyline, and unlock rewards for partial or total completion.

I hope SE ignore this idea and stop changing FFXI from the storyline-based game it was into just another arcade kill-mobs-grab-gear type of game. The storylines are all related to Vanadiel, and you are an adventurer travelling through Vanadiel, not a shopper filling your trolley with stuff and just paying for it.I just want to point out that by having this requirement they are doing the exact opposite. By forcing/requiring someone to do content they otherwise wouldn't do at the time the player is less likely to 'take their time' or enjoy it at all, and much more likely to speed through it with their mind set on the goal rather than the path in which to obtain it. By requiring players to do CoP people can feel pressured to do it and get it over with rather than do it at their leisure if they are interested in it, and thus, leaving them to enjoy it if they so choose.

Olor

02-28-2014, 09:12 AM

I just want to point out that by having this requirement they are doing the exact opposite. By forcing/requiring someone to do content they otherwise wouldn't do at the time the player is less likely to 'take their time' or enjoy it at all, and much more likely to speed through it with their mind set on the goal rather than the path in which to obtain it. By requiring players to do CoP people can feel pressured to do it and get it over with rather than do it at their leisure if they are interested in it, and thus, leaving them to enjoy it if they so choose.

This. Thank you. That's what people don't seem to be understanding - I was doing CoP - but I was doing it on my own time, when I was in the mood for it, or it was late and I didn't want to commit to much. It becomes immeasurably less enjoyable to do storyline content when it's being shoved down your throat.

I don't understand why people are hell bent on making the game less enjoyable for others. This puritan attitude of "you should play the game the way I think is best" is really irritating.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

02-28-2014, 12:24 PM

If it is indeed possible to upgrade the relic armour to +1 and +2 without Chains of Promathia progress (I can't remember/verify), I don't see why it should be required for the level 99 stages.

Upgrading relic armor to +1 requires Rare/Ex drops from Dynamis areas that require progress through CoP 3-5 to access.

Whether or not you can actually complete the upgrade without further mission progress, however, someone else will have to answer.

Demonjustin

02-28-2014, 02:36 PM

+1 may not be possible without CoP, but +2 is.

Olor

03-01-2014, 02:45 AM

+1 may not be possible without CoP, but +2 is.

With the login events its possible to upgrade a lot of relic to +2 without even ever entering dynamis.

Anyway, I am just looking for more options for folks like me to get some up-to-date job specific gear without a ridiculous block in the way. I was really looking forward to looking like a bst again. As soon as I found out I was blocked from further progress... well I haven't logged on since. It's really killed my joy in the game.

Anishia

03-01-2014, 11:35 AM

Getting thru the CoP storyline is not nearly as bad as it used to be. I finally did it myself recently and did the majority of the storyline (from chapter 4 onward) in about 3 days. All the bcnm battles were a joke with bought spark gear, including the final fight as a 99 rdm. I went into it not knowing how easy it would be to solo and I think I only had to recast stoneskin once during the final boss. The storyline is really enjoyable too, and another reason to do it.

Zarchery

03-01-2014, 12:37 PM

With the login events its possible to upgrade a lot of relic to +2 without even ever entering dynamis.

Anyway, I am just looking for more options for folks like me to get some up-to-date job specific gear without a ridiculous block in the way. I was really looking forward to looking like a bst again. As soon as I found out I was blocked from further progress... well I haven't logged on since. It's really killed my joy in the game.

Okay you're just not getting this. You're not blocked from anything. Pretty much the entirety of CoP is soloable by any melee job at level 99 in Sparks gear.

A THF who wants to build a Mandau 119 but who can't get get a party together for a successful Delve win or SKCNM D/VD win is blocked.
A MNK who has a 90 Verethragna and wants to unlock Victory Smite for all weapons but can't get help with Voidwatch city wins is blocked (some folks say you can solo cities with enough phase displacers though I'm still kinda skeptical).
A BST like you who wants to build Totemic Attire set but hasn't finished the Chains of Promathia storyline is NOT blocked on ANYTHING because he can do that alone, at his leisure.

It has nothing to do with enjoying the storyline. I agree with a previous poster who said that a player begrudgingly doing missions after being forced into them is not going to enjoy the story. But your entire reason for wanting this restriction removed is not "it's too difficult". It is simply "I don't feel like it". Which is not a good reason. Some people don't feel like farming Dynamis currency to build a relic. Should we eliminate that step for them? Or should we do the more fair thing and say "Okay, if you don't feel like putting in the effort to meet the requirements, you don't get the reward."? I also want reforged relic, but truth be told I really don't feel like farming sparks or putting together Ark Angels groups. Should we get rid of that and just have the Rem's chapters drop off regular monsters or get sold for gil by an NPC?

Twille

03-01-2014, 02:09 PM

"Okay, if you don't feel like putting in the effort to meet the requirements, you don't get the reward."

Quoted for truth.

Leonardus

03-01-2014, 02:53 PM

I was really looking forward to looking like a bst again.

Then, start acting like one, Olor- CoP, a Rajas Ring, a Brutal Earring and the achievement of wearing enhanced Artifact Armor is yours for the taking.

The only thing you have to do, is listen to a part of Vana'Diel's story, wear RoE Equipment and call one of the new jugpets if something along the way tries to stop you.

I can understand it takes time, but that's how FFXI was built, unfortunately. I didn't have teleport earrings and Home Point warps when I did it. Come on, I know you can do it, and while you're at it, you should work on WotG, the Moonshade Earring is very useful for BST (You might need a friend to duo the later battles).

Good luck, and maybe SE will let you skip it after all (But you really shouldn't!).

Crevox

03-01-2014, 05:29 PM

I can understand it takes time, but that's how FFXI was built, unfortunately.

Hence the thread requesting the removal of the requirements.

"Okay, if you don't feel like putting in the effort to meet the requirements, you don't get the reward."

Can you really call it a reward at that point? There is absolutely no difficulty. There is no "challenge" to overcome here. You are not "accomplishing" anything. All you're doing is a gigantic chore that for some reason, is still enabled and required.

I found out I had to do it, I thought it was stupid that I was forced to. People told me "you should it for the story anyways omg it will be so great!"

I did it, it took forever and it was stupid. There were only a few interesting cutscenes and I could've youtubed them, stretched across all of the other stuff the game forces me to do. I hated that I had to do it, I hated doing it, and after doing it, I still think it was a gigantic time sink that shouldn't exist.

The story was good. I could've read it or watched it on youtube within 1 hour. Too bad in game it took me ridiculously longer than that for all the wrong reasons. The story is actually really short too, it just feels long due to the huge amount of time it takes to do everything in between the cutscenes.

Do you think it's fun to run across fields for hours on end? There is no thinking involved here; it's brain dead travel from place to place with occasional bumps that make it even more annoying (go climb up that mountain, oops you fell too bad). This is not fun. There is no fun to be had in any of CoP. You are doing work for no pay, just running after a dangling carrot on a stick in the form of an invisible character flag that enables you to do something that should already be available. You also get a really good ring, which for some reason is still better than level 99 rings that require actual real effort to obtain (battle, strategy, thought, character power, cooperation).

Like, seriously? After doing it, my god, I hope they remove that as a requirement. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. You want to subject people to doing that? It feels like torture. Is it because you know it's that bad that you think it deserves a "reward" after it's done? I really am just not understanding the logic here, how anyone can think that it's a good idea for something so monotonous and painful to exist and be required for every character in the game to complete. Yeah, I know it's not "required" hur hur hur, you only need to do it if you want some of the best armor in the game (if not THE best for a lot of classes) and one of the best rings in the game.

It's like the same logic that people use for why Mythic weapons shouldn't be any easier to get. "You want that weapon? You SHOULD have to waste months of your life doing brainless solo content to get it."

What the heck is wrong with this community? Did you guys just like forget what a game is? Did you forget what "fun" is too?

I didn't have teleport earrings and Home Point warps when I did it.

And I'm really sick of this too. "When I did it, it was so much harder! You shouldn't be complaining!" That doesn't make it any better. It's still terrible.

And yes, I know back in the day it was fun and it was the current content and it was a team effort and blah blah blah. Welcome to 2014. This shouldn't be required for content released in February 2014. It's decisions like these that make Square Enix take 1 step back from getting new players (or returning players) when doing an update.

Draylo

03-01-2014, 06:22 PM

Why are you still here? WoW is the perfect game for you man. You can even buy a character that is already at max level and such from what I hear.

Imakun

03-01-2014, 07:40 PM

This has to be the most stupid (and long) rant about CoP I have ever seen in my XI life.
Upgrading AF and relics always required access to Lumoria. Even new RUNs and GEOs have to go through CoP to get their 119 AF/Relic sets.
You can roflstomp through CoP on basically ANY job at 99 with free Sparks gear. And if you don't want to deal with missions, storylines and quests then maybe this isn't the right game for you.
This is how XI works, and it is the reason most of us still play XI instead of some other MMO.

We've been playing a "dead game" for the last 7-8 years and.. news flash: we don't mind.

Crevox

03-01-2014, 08:08 PM

You can roflstomp through CoP on basically ANY job at 99 with free Sparks gear.

I love how this is the excuse every time. Yes, we know it's easy. Difficulty was never the issue. The issue is the huge amount of time it takes, and how boring it is.

By deciding to do CoP, you basically prevent yourself from playing with any friends in an MMORPG for quite a long period of time, just to get that done. Yes, believe it or not, people have friends, and this is a multiplayer game. Too bad the game requires a large sum of hours played solo.

And if you don't want to deal with missions, storylines and quests then maybe this isn't the right game for you.

The issue is that these ones we are talking about are no longer relevant by a long shot, and yet they are still required for current content. In addition to that, they require vast amounts of time that people should not have to expend. It would be different if it was actually fun, but that's just not the case.

Why are you still here? WoW is the perfect game for you man. You can even buy a character that is already at max level and such from what I hear.

Sorry, I enjoy actually doing something difficult for my gear. I enjoy actually thinking, I enjoy doing battles, I enjoy strategy. I see that you enjoy the casual side of gaming, doing braindead running around and getting free stuff handed to you. Then you go and say you "worked for it" and put forth "effort."

Pretty funny. You're clearly super skilled and a better gamer for having more time than everyone else to just throw out the window. It's also humorous that anyone who has a different opinion than you should just "quit and go play WoW." Why are you still here? Farmville is the perfect game for you man. See? I can do that too.

And since that's the extent of your intelligence, I'm done reading your posts.

Demonjustin

03-01-2014, 10:45 PM

Upgrading AF and relics always required access to Lumoria.Please, remind me what part of the Relic upgrade to +2 required any amount of progress in CoP. You said always, well, there was a time, specifically when you would upgrade Relic gear to 90, when CoP was completely irrelevant to the upgrade, the only thing that mattered was having the original piece, and the Forgotten items required to upgrade it, nothing more.

You can roflstomp through CoP on basically ANY job at 99 with free Sparks gear. And if you don't want to deal with missions, storylines and quests then maybe this isn't the right game for you.
This is how XI works, and it is the reason most of us still play XI instead of some other MMO.Really? You think most people still play this game because we had to do CoP to get to Sea? Because we had to do RotZ to get to Sky? Because we had to do all of Jeuno VW as well as the original 3 cities in order to reach Providence? Because we had to do almost completely unrelated content in order to upgrade a piece of gear or participate in an event almost entirely unrelated to what we are trying to do? Funny.

Seems to me, that has nothing to do with the game after you complete those few things that require it, once you complete every expansion, you really don't have a lot of other content that requires these kinds of things, which means these are only ever something you really deal with in the game for a short time. They are hardly the reason why 'most of us still play XI instead of some other MMO', if anything, I would place my bets that the majority of us are here because of friends, investment, and the gameplay, nothing at all even close to the fact that we have to do some long convoluted quest or mission line to do something so basic as make a piece of level 50 or 75 gear worth using again, even when everything else required is already in our possession.

We've been playing a "dead game" for the last 7-8 years and.. news flash: we don't mind.People do mind however when the content drys up, updates slow down, and the game becomes stagnant and boring, look at how the game was before Adoulin came out, when people did nothing but NNI, Salvage II, and Legion besides their hopeless runs at VW for a piece of 1% or 0.1% drop rate gear. Most people who were on the upper end of the community were bored out of their minds, they had nothing to do, for all the bad it brought SoA did make us have to do something every month to say caught up and gave us things to do constantly, still is, but we still blow through it quickly.

As much as we all can say we don't want things to change over and over again, if we had more players we might see more updates, and more content, which means a better game, sure, we have been playing a 'dead game' and don't mind much, but it's not as though getting more people is bad, or losing people is good, it's the exact opposite way around. The fact SE doesn't try to get more players and simply lets the game dwindle most the time isn't actually a good thing, and changes to make the game better or more friendly to new players isn't a bad thing, after all, really look at what you're talking about here, you are arguing that it's best to keep things how they are when the only people it hurts is new players.

But I guess we don't care, lets just push away more new players with this stuff, right?

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 12:19 AM

Can you really call it a reward at that point? There is absolutely no difficulty. There is no "challenge" to overcome here. You are not "accomplishing" anything. All you're doing is a gigantic chore that for some reason, is still enabled and required.

A reward means something received for doing an activity. It doesn't have to be commensurate with the effort. Some of the most aggravating Records of Eminence objective reward you with a paltry few hundred sparks. The easier one give you more sparks. In real life, the reward for spending a few minutes buying a lottery ticket can be millions of dollars.

I found out I had to do it, I thought it was stupid that I was forced to. People told me "you should it for the story anyways omg it will be so great!"

I did it, it took forever and it was stupid. There were only a few interesting cutscenes and I could've youtubed them, stretched across all of the other stuff the game forces me to do. I hated that I had to do it, I hated doing it, and after doing it, I still think it was a gigantic time sink that shouldn't exist.

The story was good. I could've read it or watched it on youtube within 1 hour. Too bad in game it took me ridiculously longer than that for all the wrong reasons. The story is actually really short too, it just feels long due to the huge amount of time it takes to do everything in between the cutscenes.

The cutscenes measure out to about 8 hours in total. But you keep missing the point. "I don't feel like doing this" is not an excuse for getting out of something. If you don't feel like doing Chains of Promathia, don't act entitled to the related rewards. Get sparks gear, or Skirmish gear, or Delve and WKR gear. You keep going on and on like Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka. "I WANT IT I WANT IT I DESERVE IT GIMME GIMME GIMME". I want these requirements to stay because I don't think players should be rewarded for laziness.

To say nothing of the slippery slope effect. Any time SE gives in on something, players want more. Abyssea made the level grind from 1-99 a breeze... you could just get to 30 and then leech in Abyssea. But now for a growing number of players even getting to 30 is too much. People have asked for SE to remove the level 30 minimum. I'm constantly seeing players ask "hey can someone power level me to 30?". Or inventory. Every single time SE gives us more inventory space, you have people asking for even more within a month. If they eliminated the CoP requirements for this reforged stuff because certain players don't feel like doing it what's next? Remove rank 6 and Zilart mission clears for Ark Angel fights because people don't feel like it? Remove TOAU mission clears for mythic because people don't feel like it?

I keep saying this but it's not sinking in. You do not have a God-given right to reforged artifact/relic or any piece of equipment in this game. Either meet the prerequisites or don't.

Do you think it's fun to run across fields for hours on end? There is no thinking involved here; it's brain dead travel from place to place with occasional bumps that make it even more annoying (go climb up that mountain, oops you fell too bad). This is not fun. There is no fun to be had in any of CoP. You are doing work for no pay, just running after a dangling carrot on a stick in the form of an invisible character flag that enables you to do something that should already be available. You also get a really good ring, which for some reason is still better than level 99 rings that require actual real effort to obtain (battle, strategy, thought, character power, cooperation).

If you're not having fun, don't do it. But don't act entitled to the rewards for it. I don't do Delve because the few Delves I did sucked. But I don't scream and holler for SE "remove the requirement to beat Tojil before I can acquire Tojil's drops". I simply live without Tojil's drops.

Like, seriously? After doing it, my god, I hope they remove that as a requirement. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. You want to subject people to doing that? It feels like torture. Is it because you know it's that bad that you think it deserves a "reward" after it's done? I really am just not understanding the logic here, how anyone can think that it's a good idea for something so monotonous and painful to exist and be required for every character in the game to complete. Yeah, I know it's not "required" hur hur hur, you only need to do it if you want some of the best armor in the game (if not THE best for a lot of classes) and one of the best rings in the game.

It's like the same logic that people use for why Mythic weapons shouldn't be any easier to get. "You want that weapon? You SHOULD have to waste months of your life doing brainless solo content to get it."

What the heck is wrong with this community? Did you guys just like forget what a game is? Did you forget what "fun" is too?

Now you're just being melodramatic.

To go back to Wildkeeper reives.. do I find them fun? No. I go to them, and it's the same thing. Get within 20 yalms of the boss and get nailed by some awful AoE. I sit around killing adds while summoners send out disposable avatars to chip them away. You know what my solution is? Don't go to the reives, then refrain from complaining that I don't get the stuff from reives.

This is getting tiresome. All I see is a couple of children complaining "I want this and I deserve this!!!!" The adults say "Okay, but you have to do this. It's a simple task. Do that and you can have this." And the children just say "NO NO NO!!! I want this! Give it to me now!!!"

Suppose they did get rid of these requirements. Now suppose I want a pair of Hesychat's Gloves +1. Explain to me now why I should be required to gather, say, the following items:

Melee Gloves
2 Hundred Byne Bills
10 Copies of Rem's Tale Chapter 3
1 Griffon Hide
1 Vial of Black Beetle Blood
8 Copies of Rem's Tale Chapter 8
1 Kaggen's Cuticle
1 Bztavian Stinger

Supposing that I find any of the following processes boring

Doing SKCNM fights
Doing Ark Angel Fights
Farming sparks to avoid these fights
Farming the crafting items
Farming gil to buy the crafting items.

Why shouldn't I just be able to get the Hesychat's Gloves +1 without doing these things? Your very logic (I find CoP boring so I shouldn't have to do it) dictates I shouldn't have to do that.

And don't try to bluff me by saying that these activities are okay because they're challenging. They're really not. SKCNM fights are really quite easy, and sparks farming is about as mindless a grind as you can get.

So to summarize, once more, even though you're too stubborn to get it:

Completing Chains of Promathia is a requirement for reforging relic and artifact armor. If you don't do this, you don't get to reforge. If you don't feel like doing this, you don't get to reforge. Deal with it and stop demanding that the world bend to your laziness.

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 12:27 AM

But I guess we don't care, lets just push away more new players with this stuff, right?

There's a lot of things that are going to turn off new players. Most of them I think have to do with content that requires groups but that few people are interested in doing, like Delve or certain Assaults or some of the colonization reives blocking people or atmas and abyssites. I doubt a set of entirely soloable missions is probably not gonna be one of them. You can use "it will turn away new players" to justify any change.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 12:42 AM

"I don't feel like doing this" is not an excuse for getting out of something.

How about something like "I work and go to school full time and if I wanted to do this it would consume all of the time I have to play the game for weeks and also guarantee I cannot play with my friends for those weeks?"

Hence, suggestion topic. Hence, change desired. Change would make better game. Change would make game fun. Let's suggest change!

You do not have a God-given right to reforged artifact/relic or any piece of equipment in this game. Either meet the prerequisites or don't.

Welcome to suggestion topic asking SE to change the requirements, because the time requirements are far too strict for the ~10 year old content being a requirement for current content rewards!

This is getting tiresome. All I see is a couple of children complaining "I want this and I deserve this!!!!" The adults say "Okay, but you have to do this. It's a simple task. Do that and you can have this." And the children just say "NO NO NO!!! I want this! Give it to me now!!!"

No, it's a suggestion topic asking to change the situation because it is poor. This is not good gameplay. This is not enjoyable. People would not be asking them to change it if it was enjoyable. *Most* people play games for fun. I'm starting to think others here don't.

Yes, that's an opinion. My opinion. I don't like it. So here, here's a suggestion topic asking SE to change it. Hey look, other people agree. This is going somewhere.

Deal with it and stop demanding that the world bend to your laziness.

I already did it. Long ago. It was a pain, it was dumb. Hence, suggestion topic. Asking SE to change it. There's nothing wrong with making suggestions to the game developer.

Your entire point you're making is flawed, but I can't be bothered to continue to state the same things over and over because you're too ignorant to see it. You're ignoring so many reasons for the suggestion, so many reasons why it's valid or makes more sense. You're choosing to see what you want to see, and believe what you want to believe about the reasons why the suggestion exists. This goes hand in hand with you simply believing whatever SE sets in game is correct and shouldn't be changed for any reason whatsoever. Nothing can be done about you.

Lithera

03-02-2014, 12:50 AM

Also you say it is bored because you are doing it at max level. Even if you and all of the other new people stopped at 75 to do this it would not be boring when you got to a fight. Oh and um that same hill is the only way to claim a caturae along with doing some quests in the same zone in it's abyssea counterpart. Olor is at even more disadvantage since they had time before now to have this roadblock done when others were still heavily doing it and could probably get a quick help in doing somethings.

Your other main complaint is that there is a lot of runnign back and forth, guess what that so far is all that the current expansion's storyline is basically just that. So I guess it won't be for you until we find out it has a great item at the end, but then I'm sure you will start a thread complaining about how no one else wants to help because omg they already have done it and are happy with their choice for said item at the end.

Oh and the why are you still here posting bit was aimed at you stating your sub had ran out. So why stay around and continue to complain about a game you don't like because you burnt yourself out in less time than most people do in a year. Along with can't play unless you are planning on resubbing just to get Cait and still have no fun after that.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 01:03 AM

This community: making a suggestion for change = complaining.

Man, I don't know how you people get by. All you do is say "if you don't like it quit" to everything and anything anyone says negatively about the game. This community is such a nice big happy family. Every post you make, every comment you make, every reply you make... is completely negative. Devoid of any positivity. Not only that, you assume the most negative possible feelings from anyone else. You just won't stop saying that I'm "complaining" and that I "had no fun with the game" and more. No matter how much I say otherwise... nope, that's how it is.

Like I said before, this is a huge reason why newbies don't stick around. Make one suggestion for change and woosh, everyone cuts off your head (and completely ignores what are probably actually good, valid reasons for why the suggestion is a good one). Not only that, you got people in other topics complaining about newbies asking them questions.

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 01:08 AM

This community: making a suggestion for change = complaining.

You keep saying that. What I keep saying is that your suggestion is silly.

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 01:11 AM

How about something like "I work and go to school full time and if I wanted to do this it would consume all of the time I have to play the game for weeks and also guarantee I cannot play with my friends for those weeks?"

A lot of people balance busy real life commitments with this game. You still haven't answered my question about why you should have to do the Rem's Tale and crafting item gathering tasks related to attaining this stuff.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 01:20 AM

A lot of people balance busy real life commitments with this game. You still haven't answered my question about why you should have to do the Rem's Tale and crafting item gathering tasks related to attaining this stuff.

Crafting item gathering tasks? I buy them off AH. Done. If I didn't, I would look it up on where to get it. It probably drops from a monster. Okay, I kill it. That's fine. I can even do that with a friend!

Rem's Tale? I got them while leveling up with Sparks. I spent a currency to obtain them. If I didn't do that, I would be fighting monsters my level (doing those battlefields) to obtain them. Yay, combat. Yay, fights. Yay, relevant content with other people. Yay, a fun activity, doing something other than pressing R and steering my character. YAY MULTIPLAYER

The thing is, Chains of Promathia takes a ridiculous amount of time compared to those other things. A lot of time. Why do you have to do it? Because an invisible character flag in their database needs to be set to "yes." I'm not obtaining required items for it; it's a long, long, LONG task just to change that flag. Not only that, it's ~10 year old content. I can obtain those items above doing current content, with other people, multiplayer, online! Woo! Fun!

Why does the suggestion exist? Because it is seen as silly for CoP to be a requirement, for those reasons. I can earn the items required for the trade, but I can't MAKE the trade because I haven't changed that character flag by doing hours upon hours of questing that offers no other reward (oh boy rajas ring, that's so good for me as a summoner, so that's not even a prize for me). Not only that, CoP as a requirement has many flaws in itself besides just the time it takes: it's extremely boring, it is pretty much a solo endeavor (yes, you can drag your friends along if you want to torment them too, but they have zero reason to come with), etc, etc, etc... already mentioned in the thread.

You know how great it is to tell your friends "okay guys, we could get this awesome armor, but first, we gotta all go play by ourselves for a while. We gotta do days of quests before we can get the armor. Yeah, I know, it sucks, but we need the armor, so let's not play together at all for a while." Sure, you could do it together, but hey look, my friend had to go, we're both on the same part of the mission, let me stop doing it so we can do it again together next time and make it take even longer before we finish.

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 01:25 AM

Crafting item gathering tasks? I buy them off AH. Done. If I didn't, I would look it up on where to get it. It probably drops from a monster. Okay, I kill it. That's fine. I can even do that with a friend!

Rem's Tale? I got them while leveling up with Sparks. I spent a currency to obtain them. If I didn't do that, I would be fighting monsters my level (doing those battlefields) to obtain them. Yay, combat. Yay, fights. Yay, relevant content with other people. Yay, a fun activity, doing something other than pressing R and steering my character. YAY MULTIPLAYER

The thing is, Chains of Promathia takes a ridiculous amount of time. A lot of time. Why do you have to do it? Because an invisible character flag in their database needs to be set to "yes." I'm not obtaining required items for it; it's a long, long, LONG task just to change that flag. Not only that, it's ~10 year old content. I can obtain those items above doing current content, with other people, multiplayer, online! Woo! Fun!

Why does the suggestion exist? Because it is seen as silly for CoP to be a requirement, for those reasons. I can earn the items required for the trade, but I can't MAKE the trade because I haven't changed that character flag by doing hours upon hours of questing that offers no other reward (oh boy rajas ring, that's so good for me as a summoner, so that's not even a prize for me). Not only that, CoP as a requirement has many flaws in itself besides just the time it takes: it's extremely boring, it is pretty much a solo endeavor (yes, you can drag your friends along if you want to torment them too, but they have zero reason to come with), etc, etc, etc... already mentioned in the thread.

Your argument is flawed. You are saying "CoP requirement is unacceptable because it's content I don't like, but Rem's chapters and crafting items are okay because it's content I do like". What if Joe Blow over there doesn't like farming sparks or doing the fights? On your logic, "I don't like it" is the only reason you need to eschew a requirement. You really just keep coming off as a whiny neurotic sloth saying over and over "I don't want to do what is required, but I want all the benefits anyway!"

Crevox

03-02-2014, 01:26 AM

bungiefanNA

03-02-2014, 03:08 AM

EDIT: Strange that I can post even though my account is no longer active... I would've figured I wouldn't be able to.

You can't log into the forum anymore, but as long as you don't log out, try to view your profile, or clear your browser cookies, you will remain logged in and able to post with an inactive account.

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 06:11 AM

There it is again! Ignoring all points of the post and summing it up as "I don't like it."

What was the point of even answering if no matter what I said, you were going to reply with that?

I'm going to sleep, my brain can only handle so much troll in one sitting.

Guy who disagrees with you = troll. May I start calling you Inafking? Anyway, rhetorical question, I'm tired of this fight.

Xantavia

03-02-2014, 07:17 AM

Demonjustin

03-02-2014, 09:48 AM

There's a lot of things that are going to turn off new players. Most of them I think have to do with content that requires groups but that few people are interested in doing, like Delve or certain Assaults or some of the colonization reives blocking people or atmas and abyssites. I doubt a set of entirely soloable missions is probably not gonna be one of them. You can use "it will turn away new players" to justify any change.Really? You don't think telling a player that they have to go through what you said yourself is 8 hours of CSs, let alone all of the running around, talking to NPCs, farming up meaningless items for a quest off of monsters you can kill in a single hit, and battlefields that are a flat out joke now days, all so they can get some entry level gear, would turn them off of this game? You are talking about someone coming to play this game who is being told they have to go do boring solo content just so they can get some gear even if they have already obtained everything else required, and not some solo content that takes 10 minutes, but something that will take them days.

If you doubt that these missions are going to be one of the things that turn people away from this game, you're wrong, I mean hell, I have played for years and I can't even motivate myself to level this character I use to post anymore because it's just a boring grind I do alone, and when I get to 99 what will I do? Buy Espial, buy Wayfarers, and go do RotZ and CoP so I can get Suppa, Brutal, Rajas, and my RF gear. None of it at all seems fun to me, and I have done it all before, I know how to do it quickly, what warps to pick up on my way by, and have people or other characters even I can use to help me if I actually need to. If I can't stand to do it even though I have played this game for years, what makes you think a new player won't be turned away by the same exact things when they could easily play another MMO and have 0 attachment to this one?

Demonjustin

03-02-2014, 10:01 AM

Your argument is flawed. You are saying "CoP requirement is unacceptable because it's content I don't like, but Rem's chapters and crafting items are okay because it's content I do like". What if Joe Blow over there doesn't like farming sparks or doing the fights? On your logic, "I don't like it" is the only reason you need to eschew a requirement. You really just keep coming off as a whiny neurotic sloth saying over and over "I don't want to do what is required, but I want all the benefits anyway!"Good god it's not about being liked or not liked it's about being meaningful. Level 75 cap content which can be soloed with your eyes closed is not meaningful, it is not fun, it is not in any way entertaining, it is boring plain and simple. Doing Rem Chapters is fine, why? Simple, it's from level 99 content, more specifically, it is from level 99~119 content depending on the difficulty level you do the fights on, which means the battles are not only current content meant for the current level cap, but that they can be challenging and entertaining fights.

They are fine because they have that sense of actually doing something meaningful. It's the same kind of stupid argument people bring up in the case of Mythic weapons, that somehow wasting a ton of your time on a game is an accomplishment that should be rewarded with great gear even when the event being done is not in any way actually challenging, which means literally all you're being rewarded for is how much time you wasted. Here, we are talking about how unless we waste hours upon hours doing CoP we should not get the reward of being allowed to trade our items in for Reforging gear, not something hard, not something challenging, not something we want to do in any way because of how boring it is, yet, we do not 'deserve' this gear apparently unless we show we are willing to waste 'this much time' on an expansion's story first, once we show we are willing to waste that much time, tada, we are allowed and deemed worthy of such an honor.

Demonjustin

03-02-2014, 10:08 AM

You know what could put the fun back in doing CoP instead of feeling like a chore? Don't do it while level 99, wearing sparks gear. Pick a job that isn't capped so there is some real danger in the zones you have to go through. Trying to sneak your way past true sight/sound mobs that'll eat your face if you get caught puts a whole different spin on the journey. At this point, getting the next cutscene isn't guaranteed might put some adventure back in your life.Two things to that.

A: This argument has never worked to solve anything. Back when people complained Abyssea was to easy there was always the idea of don't use Atma, don't use Cruor Buffs, but who did it? No one. Yes, you can intentionally gimp yourself to make things harder, but no one does it outside of a very small group of people.

B: Then you have to find the right balance, easy enough it's doable without others, hard enough it's not something you curb stomp and move on from. Thing is, you can't easily make these balances, doesn't happen, I did my Rank 3 fight on this character at 30, was fairly hard, almost failed, but I pulled through. It was the same type of thing you're talking about basically, I could have leveled to 35 or 40 and smashed right through it, but I held back and intentionally kept my RDM @30 until I completed it, and even called for help on every monster I had to kill that would give me XP just to prevent myself from leveling up. I did it for that artificial challenge, but not all fights are so easy to do that with, and not everyone, or hardly anyone, will do it, nor should anyone be expected to.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 10:16 AM

Gannon

03-02-2014, 11:34 AM

It sounds like you are playing the wrong game if you are not willing to put in the time and effort required for your items.

Demonjustin

03-02-2014, 11:59 AM

It sounds like you are playing the wrong game if you are not willing to put in the time and effort required for your items.It's not a matter of time and effort it's a matter of doing content that provides no challenge, entertainment, and is nothing more than a roadblock that wastes your time.

Gannon

03-02-2014, 12:02 PM

It's not a matter of time and effort it's a matter of doing content that provides no challenge, entertainment, and is nothing more than a roadblock that wastes your time.

It is still time you need to invest for your gear.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 12:23 PM

It is still time you need to invest for your gear.

Time that takes exponentially longer than everything else and provides zero fun or entertainment. It is literally running for hours on end.

The actual gear requires items that you trade in. This pre-requirement to being able to do that should not exist.

Gannon

03-02-2014, 12:27 PM

Time that takes exponentially longer than everything else and provides zero fun or entertainment. It is literally running for hours on end.

The actual gear requires items that you trade in. This pre-requirement to being able to do that should not exist.

It does exist and be glad it's a one time requirement. It's been mentioned a lot already, but it's a lot quicker and easier than when the rest of us had to do it. Just get them done and never look at it again for crying out loud.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 02:07 PM

It does exist and be glad it's a one time requirement. It's been mentioned a lot already, but it's a lot quicker and easier than when the rest of us had to do it. Just get them done and never look at it again for crying out loud.

You're ignoring a perfectly valid suggestion with "yeah it's bad but not as bad as people say, just grin and bear it." You appear to agree with the suggestion if you agree it's bad.

It's not even good from a lore reason. I have to do a ridiculously long series of quests just to make one NPC happy enough to craft armor for me? So silly.

Gannon

03-02-2014, 03:07 PM

Lots of this game is gated by quests. Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Neo AA/DM fights, etc. If you can't handle that like the rest of us, this game isn't for you.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 03:14 PM

Lots of this game is gated by quests. Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Neo AA/DM fights, etc. If you can't handle that like the rest of us, this game isn't for you.

Here we are again, in the suggestion topic asking for them to remove it as a requirement! People seem to forget what topic they're posting in.

Man, all you people just repeat the same stuff over and over again. "We hate doing this stuff, but we had to do it, so you should too!" Not only that, you're grouping all quests together as a complaint. No, we're saying we want CoP removed from being a requirement for something we believe would be better off without it.

SE adds a new set of armor, yet you need to have completed hours/days of questing implemented 10 years ago in order to access it.

It's a suggestion thread. Stop just ultimately saying "it is how it is, deal with it or quit." It COULD change and make a better game, hence the thread suggesting that change. If you agree that it's not fun, why don't you just support the suggestion instead of just telling everyone "too bad?"

Gannon

03-02-2014, 03:19 PM

Better for who? the 3 people who refuse to enjoy the game's lore or just "grin and bear it"? The dev time spent on your pointless suggestion could be better spent elsewhere. Face it, you two are in the minority here.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 03:21 PM

Better for who? the 3 people who refuse to enjoy the game's lore or just "grin and bear it"? The dev time spent on your pointless suggestion could be better spent elsewhere.

3 people? How about every newbie player that starts up this game and is unable to do ANY of the content everyone else is doing because they haven't completed days of questing first? In addition to being unable to turn in items for armor that would be useful for said content.

I can enjoy the game's lore on youtube or a wiki. I would enjoy the entirety of the story in a fraction of the time. The story is great. That's fine. Everything in between that makes it take forever is not. Even putting that aside, you can leave all that in there, but it shouldn't be left as a requirement to be completed for current 2014 content.

I played for ~2 months. After all that, I still can't even do AA fights and most other things, and people said I went through it fast. People have to spend over 2 months playing before they can play with anyone else in current content?

Gannon

03-02-2014, 03:24 PM

Crevox

03-02-2014, 03:31 PM

You are assuming every newbie to join this game will be as uninterested in the game or as friendless as you are. Any yes, I expect any newbie to pay their dues before they can join current content.

Edit: and on the Youtube comment, why bother playing any game when you can watch it on Youtube, eh?

Because in content in other MMORPGs, you battle things. You are constantly told a story. You are doing something fun and interesting. In CoP, you do none of this. 99% of the time is spent running or doing pointless fetch missions before you can actually get to the STORY parts of it. You get tiny little bits and pieces spread across MANY grueling hours. If I could just those bits and pieces one after another without RUNNING for hours on end, then great, CoP is awesome. But that's just not the case.

I never said I was uninterested in the game. I played it for ~2 months, and I had fun. I did not have fun doing CoP though. It is an extremely annoying requirement that I had no choice but to grin and bear; and I wish they would change it. Here we are, suggestion topic!

I expect any newbie to pay their dues

What the heck does this even mean?

as friendless

What does this have to do with anything and where are you getting this from?

Gannon

03-02-2014, 03:35 PM

Then play a different MMORPG? FFXI isn't other MMORPGs.

What the heck does this even mean?
Do your missions/quests.

What does this have to do with anything and where are you getting this from?
Clearly you can't get help for said missions/quests.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 03:43 PM

Then play a different MMORPG? FFXI isn't other MMORPGs.

Do your missions/quests.

Aaaand now you've given up. Ultimately, as always, you and everyone else falls back on the same thing. "Do it because it's required or play a different game." Your logic makes no sense, as what the heck are "dues" and why am I paying them? It doesn't have to be a requirement. There's no reason for it to be.

Clearly you can't get help for said missions/quests.

There is no helping. No one can help me run across a field for hours on end to get from one place to the next. Even as a summoner with Fleet Wind, it still takes forever. You gotta go from point A to point B, and that's just all there is to it. No one can make that "faster." You just have to do it, and that is not fun at all. The strange thing is that everyone who is arguing against this change agrees that it's not fun, and yet they still just say "we did it, so you should have to too!"

Once again, welcome to the suggestion topic asking for them to change it so it's not a requirement. A change that would avoid having to do something not fun. A change that would improve the experience for new players, and make them play the game longer and get to enjoy the fun parts of the game, avoiding the dull, boring, running for hours on end through 10 year old content, solo, in an MMORPG.

You people just like really want your game to die, as you clearly don't care at all whether or not new players stick to the game and enjoy it.

Gannon

03-02-2014, 03:49 PM

as you clearly don't care at all whether or not new players stick to the game and enjoy it.

No, I just don't care if YOU stick with this game or enjoy it, cause you are clearly the type we don't want in this game.

Crevox

03-02-2014, 03:54 PM

No, I just don't care if YOU stick with this game or enjoy it, cause you are clearly the type we don't want in this game.

You find me a new player that wants to do all of that. I certainly couldn't, as like I said in the other topic, I started the game and found ~6 other people also starting out the game for the first time and made an LS with them. Guess what? They all quit. They quit because of the insane requirements they had to complete before they could do the same stuff everyone else was doing. It was boring. Good bye, 6 paying subscribers.

I was the only one who completed CoP, and after all that, it was as boring and time consuming as we all thought it was going to be. In fact, I'm exactly the type of player "you people" (as you said "we" for some reason, as if you're representing the community) should want in the game, as I was actually willing to do all of it. No one else is.

You just don't seem to understand that players nowadays aren't going to do all of this. They're going to see it and how boring it is, and just go play a different game, an actual fun game. This game has potential to be very fun, and has tons of great, enjoyable content on it. It's just too bad it's all locked behind stupid stuff like this, and people quit before they can even experience it. Welcome to the suggestion topic!

The game just isn't going to retain new players, and thus survive into the future, without positive changes to that new player experience. SE has done a lot of good things. Here is another one.

Darkdragongers

03-02-2014, 05:44 PM

well you can solo Bst or Pup on all Mission/Quest

Stephenjd

03-02-2014, 06:19 PM

Final Fantasy games have always been story-based, FFXI is no different. If you want a game which is far more loot-based, there are many WoW clones or WoW itself. Or if you don't want a MMORPG I hear Diablo 3 has an expansion out soon.

Demonjustin

03-02-2014, 08:09 PM

No, I just don't care if YOU stick with this game or enjoy it, cause you are clearly the type we don't want in this game.What kind of people do we want in this game? People who don't mind wasting time on things nearly completely unrelated to that which they are trying to achieve? No one has said what negative impact on the game this has at all, if you want to argue that they have to spend development time on it, well guess what, they had to spend development time tying the two NPCs together so that CoP mattered for this, they didn't have to do it, that's obvious by the fact Relic +2 had no connections, it could have been done perfectly fine without it from what we know and yet they did it anyways.

Please tell me, what kind of people do we want in this game? What does doing CoP solo over the course of days prove that makes them the kind of player we want here?

well you can solo Bst or Pup on all Mission/QuestIf you read the posts in this thread you would understand that completing the missions is not difficult, doing it solo and flying through it easily is part of the issue, as well as the fact that the grand majority of it is running around and wasting time.

Final Fantasy games have always been story-based, FFXI is no different. If you want a game which is far more loot-based, there are many WoW clones or WoW itself. Or if you don't want a MMORPG I hear Diablo 3 has an expansion out soon.'Go play another game' isn't a good response to such a stupidly easy issue that could be solved in no time by removing a simple restriction that need not be there in the first place. It does nothing but hurt new players while affecting next to no player who has played more than a month or 2 because by that point they will have been told to do CoP for their Rajas anyways unless they play mages only. Basically, this adjustment would help new players, instead, people are advocating for leaving it as it is even though it would not hurt them at all if it were changed, and would only serve to aid newer players in the end.

Stephenjd

03-02-2014, 09:37 PM

Newer players should not be looking for ilevel gear yet anyway, just because you rushed to 99 does not mean you are entitled to the gear that others have been working to for years. Again, if you want to rush to endgame within a week, there are other games that may suit you. It's people like those in this thread that made CoP "boring" in the first place by crying that it was too hard...

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 10:23 PM

Really? You don't think telling a player that they have to go through what you said yourself is 8 hours of CSs, let alone all of the running around, talking to NPCs, farming up meaningless items for a quest off of monsters you can kill in a single hit, and battlefields that are a flat out joke now days, all so they can get some entry level gear, would turn them off of this game? You are talking about someone coming to play this game who is being told they have to go do boring solo content just so they can get some gear even if they have already obtained everything else required, and not some solo content that takes 10 minutes, but something that will take them days.

Reforged gear is not entry level gear. Sparks gear is. You get that in a couple hours of knocking out Records of Eminence.

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 10:25 PM

It's not a matter of time and effort it's a matter of doing content that provides no challenge, entertainment, and is nothing more than a roadblock that wastes your time.

Farming sparks provides no challenge, and is nothing more than a roadblock. Neither is gaining XP. Or farming currency for a relic. Or farming gil. Almost every task in this game lacks challenge. You arbitrarily label things as "just a roadblock" on the simple basis of "I don't feel like doing this, so it's unnecessary. Get rid of it.".

My entire point through this whole thing is that your suggestion of "get rid of the CoP requirement" has no more merit than "get rid of the need for gil" or "get rid of experience points" or "get rid of sparks". You guys keep pretending it does because you just don't want to do it and think that's enough. I don't want to do Delve. Should I be allowed a free Whirlpool Mask or Oatixurs?

Zarchery

03-02-2014, 10:31 PM

I just noticed that Crevox is the same guy who's been around for like 3 months and started that big "I quit" thread at the beginning of February. Why is it that the biggest malcontents who dislike the game project this onto everybody? I've been seeing this since 2005. It's like "I don't like this game, there's no way anyone could, it's clearly dying unless they custom tailor it the way I like". Same thing, year after year, since 2005.

Sfchakan

03-02-2014, 11:18 PM

It sounds like you are playing the wrong game if you are not willing to put in the time and effort required for your items.

This!

I'm glad they're not on my server, but I'm sure there's a few entitled individuals like this here. I wish more of them would post here so that I can know who to avoid in game.

With all of the time he's spent on here whining and replying, he'd be done with 3 Paths easily and be in the home stretch. Especially if he spams Enter during those Impossible To Gauge cutscenes!

Sfchakan

03-02-2014, 11:19 PM

Crevox

03-02-2014, 11:21 PM

I wonder why he hasn't been banned for trolling.

"I disagree with that guy. He must be trolling. He should be banned."

I just noticed that Crevox is the same guy who's been around for like 3 months and started that big "I quit" thread at the beginning of February. Why is it that the biggest malcontents who dislike the game project this onto everybody? I've been seeing this since 2005. It's like "I don't like this game, there's no way anyone could, it's clearly dying unless they custom tailor it the way I like". Same thing, year after year, since 2005.

If you don't want to contribute to the discussion and would rather just personally harass me, please don't post. It's just not a good idea. You continue to ignore all logic and any reasons anyone states; you clearly have no interest in discussion, so please, just don't post.

With all of the time he's spent on here whining and replying, he'd be done with 3 Paths easily and be in the home stretch.

You didn't read any of the discussion.

Lithera

03-03-2014, 01:33 AM

Demonjustin

03-03-2014, 03:35 AM

Reforged gear is not entry level gear. Sparks gear is. You get that in a couple hours of knocking out Records of Eminence.

Sparks gear is cheaper than RF gear, yes, but they can both be obtained through Sparks, that is why I call it entry level, anyone just hitting 99 can likely get their pages provided they leveled slowly rather than leaching their way to 99, and even if they did they might be able to buy some of it still. In either case, RF is hardly more difficult than Sparks sets to obtain, the only real difference lies in the need for the original pieces.

My entire point through this whole thing is that your suggestion of "get rid of the CoP requirement" has no more merit than "get rid of the need for gil" or "get rid of experience points" or "get rid of sparks". You guys keep pretending it does because you just don't want to do it and think that's enough. I don't want to do Delve. Should I be allowed a free Whirlpool Mask or Oatixurs?Can you solo Delve without even trying? No? Not the same.

It's not a matter of not wanting to do it, how that doesn't make sense to you I can't understand. Dynamis is content battle against monsters who are at least in XP range of your character farming items, there is a chance of actually dying if you get ganged up on and there is hardly any pointless running from point A to B whereas CoP is literally nothing but pointless running 90% of the time with around 10 battles throughout the entire expansion really. The only time CoP provides any amount of danger or challenge is when doing the missions in Ve'Lugannon & Ru'Avitau, even then it's annoying since everything is true sound and you have the stupid door mechanic. Comparing Dyna and this isn't really a good idea since they aren't really the same. Gil can be aquired many ways, the most profitable ways are by doing current/difficult content, XP is most often done by fighting things that are your level, which often provide some amount of challenge, sparks are obtained while doing just about anything in the game. Again these are bad comparisons, none of them require a massive amount of useless running with hardly any substance in between.

Demonjustin

03-03-2014, 03:47 AM

The point is all of the expansions are mostly fucking fetch quests with game day waits or JP midnights. The reforge gear is tied to other things dealing with the same npc. Let's take a look of the last batch of SoA most of it was oh please run back to Levil after waiting a game day for yet another CS. At the moment there has been a total of two fights. Sure you can cut down on the actual go here part because of the waypoints but it is still RUN the hell here and the come back again that you have been arguing about.In all honesty bringing up SoA's story at this point seems pointless, they haven't made it a requirement to progress in that story at all really which makes it exactly the opposite of what is being discussed here. Yes, SE makes crappy stories when it comes to this game and incorporating it into gameplay, not to say the story itself is bad, but rather that telling it through gameplay is very poorly done because it has resulted in nothing more over the years than simply going to from point A to B for some ???s, then to C for a CS, and possibly D for a battle, then back to A which starts the next mission.

People who have been playing this game for years have been asking if not begging SE to do something with old content so that it is relevant to current content. Why? Because we loved said old content and don't want it to sit there and wither away on the side. Could they have done the reforging differently? Maybe but they chose this route so either suck it up and live with it or wait til they choose to reforge emperyean gear and do that. Most who play the game will probably agree that sometimes when SE chooses to do something a certain way is probably the dumbest, but we grin and bear it mostlySince when did any of this stop us from asking for changes? SE has done tons of stupid crap over the years but we almost always ask for changes to it at some point, I mean right now we have monsters removing our gear after they told us this wouldn't be an issue anymore, people are complaining as they should about that, even if nothing is done, people at least voice the complaints. As for Empyrean gear, what makes you think that will be any different than the other 2? I have no doubt the NPC will be involved in upgrading Empyrean gear just like it has for the other 2 sets thus far and it will demand the same requirements when it comes to quests or missions completed.

The day that 'suck it up and deal with it' is the answer to our problems, this forum becomes 100% meaningless and laughable, though one could argue it has been that way since its inception due to the lack of feedback actually listened to over the years in many cases. In all honesty if we can fall back on nothing more than that response when it comes to changes being asked for then it's time to give up any hope on using this site for any form of feedback because we should all just suck it up and deal with whatever we are given it seems.

detlef

03-03-2014, 04:15 AM

I've read every discussion and have a good understanding of the OP's complaint. But it got me to wondering, who gets to decide which parts of the game are skippable?

Let's say I hate exploring (this is true, Yorcia killed my adventuring spirit). I want 10 Home Points in every zone because running around is mindless and boring. Also, they should be available from the start without having to activate them in the field first. I don't want to spend my time running around, it's just taking away time from the good stuff. Is this a reasonable request, or is it too huge a departure from what FFXI is?

Lithera

03-03-2014, 04:23 AM

Let's see RoZ has 18 missions 7 which are fights. CoP has 35 missions which 22 has some kind of fight gee doesn't sound like it's mostly fetch quests or CS. There is a lot of of running around but that is where out post warps the tavy ring and VW warps come into play.
ToA has 48 missions with only 9 missions where you have to fight something. I even included the two missions where you had to kill something to get an item you needed to further progress. That is a whole lot of running from A to B, maybe we should be glad they didn't choose ToA which doesn't even have npc connections to older ways of upgrading gear that is being complained about.
WotG has 54 missions with only 12 fights again away more running around like a chicken with it's head cut off than CoP. I didn't include the nation sections in WotG as some have more fights in them than the others do.
So is just the lack of speed getting from point A to B the main problem? If so then it goes to the laziness argument and not wanting to have to omg run somewhere. I know/knew a person who when asked to help break a weapon for a WS trial wouldn't go to the boyahda tree because omg it was too far to run to from the out post. This when the person asking didn't have enough time to go somewhere that it could be done faster at.
Yes with relic you can skip the +1ing of it to reforge it but SE chose to tie it along with the AF to the one NPC that you had to use for the original upgrades. Which obviously is tied to having to do CoP though not sure how many knew that about the relic part of it. Could SE have chosen a different way? Yes, but they didn't and most who are part of the stop whining and just do it already crowd see this complaining as a slap in the face to SE who seriously didn't even have to allow us to reforge anything in the first place. They could instead of just came out with more new gear and continue down that path.

Lithera

03-03-2014, 04:36 AM

In all honesty bringing up SoA's story at this point seems pointless, they haven't made it a requirement to progress in that story at all really which makes it exactly the opposite of what is being discussed here. Yes, SE makes crappy stories when it comes to this game and incorporating it into gameplay, not to say the story itself is bad, but rather that telling it through gameplay is very poorly done because it has resulted in nothing more over the years than simply going to from point A to B for some ???s, then to C for a CS, and possibly D for a battle, then back to A which starts the next mission.

Since when did any of this stop us from asking for changes? SE has done tons of stupid crap over the years but we almost always ask for changes to it at some point, I mean right now we have monsters removing our gear after they told us this wouldn't be an issue anymore, people are complaining as they should about that, even if nothing is done, people at least voice the complaints. As for Empyrean gear, what makes you think that will be any different than the other 2? I have no doubt the NPC will be involved in upgrading Empyrean gear just like it has for the other 2 sets thus far and it will demand the same requirements when it comes to quests or missions completed.

Because his main complaint is CoP is 90% running around with little amount of fights. Which my other post clearly debunks that. I bring up SoA because he's all I want to do current crap. If he is THIS bent out of shape about having to do something to get something because holy crap it's all running around doing fetch quests then he obviously is not going to enjoy the current story. Again the original ways to upgrade these were tied to said npc so until we see anything more about empyrean gear I doubt SE is going to make us use the same npc. They'll more likely make us have to have cleared all of abyssea and I mean everything. All quests, zone wins, caturea, all dom ops, and to have beaten Shinryu once. Then bash our skulls in doing veil moogle stuffs or something dealing with Joachim.

EDIT: we don't have problems with people asking to make something better. We have problems with who and the reason(s) why. If you choose to skip something and rush to the end only to complain that you now have to go back and do the thing you skipped in order to get an optional item then yes many are going to say it is your own fault and deal with it. Same goes for those who had time to do the same thing they skipped because they don't like to do the story even when it was still current and not something that you could do while blindfolded. There probably is some kind of programming or design flaw that is making SE go the route they went with for both. This game is like a tv show where you can't just jump into the middle of it because it will not make any sense to you, but it will to anyone else who has watched it from day one. Like Farscape, or Lost, or some of the later sections of Stargate series.

Think of it this way would you want someone who's job it is to cook you some blowfish if didn't study on how to prep it correctly? Probably not as you'll probably die. Yet the person could be the best chef in all the world. They have the tools and experience and probably filet hundreds if not thousands of fish and might just go and do it. I still would not recommend eating it. I know someone is going to make the but this is totally different than what's being asked to be changed in the game but us it really? Someone wants to do/get something after skipping the required material and then feels it's okay to complain about it and asks for the requirements scraped just because they want to still be allowed to get their item/do their thing while still not having done it or it's boring, or takes to long. Compared to some other things in game it's actually quicker to finish than they are trying to make it out to be.

Gannon

03-03-2014, 05:20 AM

Why not ask for all jobs to be level 99 and capped skills? Clearly leveling up and skilling up have nothing to do with current content, eh?

Demonjustin

03-03-2014, 07:02 AM

Let's say I hate exploring (this is true, Yorcia killed my adventuring spirit). I want 10 Home Points in every zone because running around is mindless and boring. Also, they should be available from the start without having to activate them in the field first. I don't want to spend my time running around, it's just taking away time from the good stuff. Is this a reasonable request, or is it too huge a departure from what FFXI is?Personally I would say it's a fine request. We already have this but to a lesser extent because we have 4~6 Waypoints in each outdoor zone in Adoulin as is, as well as a HP in many of them, adding more can't hurt.

Kari

03-03-2014, 07:19 AM

Play another game. This one isn't for you.

Zarchery

03-03-2014, 12:09 PM

Could SE have chosen a different way? Yes, but they didn't and most who are part of the stop whining and just do it already crowd see this complaining as a slap in the face to SE who seriously didn't even have to allow us to reforge anything in the first place. They could instead of just came out with more new gear and continue down that path.

Didn't they already do this, with new Skirmishes?

Artifact and Relic reforges are not the only gear choice. If the CoP requirement is that awful, go for something else.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-03-2014, 12:16 PM

Play another game. This one isn't for you.

Post in another thread. This one isn't for you.

(Constructive, ain't it?)

Lithera

03-03-2014, 09:08 PM

Didn't they already do this, with new Skirmishes?

Artifact and Relic reforges are not the only gear choice. If the CoP requirement is that awful, go for something else.

Lol I meant only new non reforged gear if they hadn't allowed reforging to happen in the 1st place.

AppropriateName5786

03-03-2014, 11:17 PM

I've read every discussion and have a good understanding of the OP's complaint. But it got me to wondering, who gets to decide which parts of the game are skippable?

Um.....clearly the person who pays is the one who decides. SE offers a product, and we, as customers, are their collective boss. You and a lot of others on this forum have it backwards. When someone chooses to skip ancient content, they should not be punished for it. Only when they choose to skip current, relevant content should they be "punished," i.e. I choose not to do Salvage II and Legion because I hate their design, thus I do not get rewards from Salvage II and Legion. But if a new player joins now they cannot choose because they are locked out until they go through all the expansions. My play time is not extremely limited like some others, but the last thing I'd do if I only had 3 hours/week to play is do missions. If I went to another MMO today, I would want to level up asap and play with others.

Let's say I hate exploring (this is true, Yorcia killed my adventuring spirit). I want 10 Home Points in every zone because running around is mindless and boring. Also, they should be available from the start without having to activate them in the field first. I don't want to spend my time running around, it's just taking away time from the good stuff. Is this a reasonable request, or is it too huge a departure from what FFXI is?

Since when has running around a very static world to do nothing been considered content? This is not an FPS where every map/zone is different and you can explore for 40-60 hours and then move on to the next game and never look back. The HPs were added to zones that we've all been to 100 times because it was simply a smart thing to do and has nothing to do with exploration. I don't think anyone hated the addition of Domenic in Lower Jeuno because he made bcnms so much less time-consuming, which is what you're implying.

AppropriateName5786

03-03-2014, 11:19 PM

Why not ask for all jobs to be level 99 and capped skills? Clearly leveling up and skilling up have nothing to do with current content, eh?

Abyssea and RoE skill tomes, meet Gannon. Gannon, Abyssea and RoE skill tomes.

Gannon

03-03-2014, 11:46 PM

Abyssea and RoE skill tomes, meet Gannon. Gannon, Abyssea and RoE skill tomes.

Those are not all part of current content...

Karbuncle

03-03-2014, 11:56 PM

Only when they choose to skip current, relevant content should they be "punished," i.e. I choose not to do Salvage II and Legion because I hate their design, thus I do not get rewards from Salvage II and Legion.

I don't really agree with this. Making each and every piece of content irrelevant the second new content comes out is a design flaw most current MMOs adopt and is the driving reason most of them suck. While i will concede there should be a time limit on the difficulty of said content, right now, CoP can be beaten in under a day, literally as i said above about 24 hours worth of content, and there's still a reasonable and relevant reward at the end.

At this point in the argument, I must point out, Finishing CoP unlocks the ability to upgrade relics, and gives access to the still Best-in-Slot melee ring to date, making the content relevant. By your own logic this content being relevant means you should be punished for not wanting to complete it. You can't just turn off and on your own logic to better serve your argument.

CoP Is relevant. It unlocks the ability to obtain endgame gear, and gives an endgame accessories as a reward for completing it. Even gives access to Diabolos and Dreamland Dynamis, both relevant as well. It also introduces a lot of characters and makes sense of Abysseas storyling for anyone who cares about abysseas storyline lol. CoP is probably to date the most relevant and rewarding expansion pack introduced.

But if a new player joins now they cannot choose because they are locked out until they go through all the expansions. My play time is not extremely limited like some others, but the last thing I'd do if I only had 3 hours/week to play is do missions. If I went to another MMO today, I would want to level up asap and play with others.

Theres not many things that are completely locked out right now due to expansion. Relic upgrades and Walk of Echoes are probably the biggest pain in the butt. Thankfully, almost every expansion/etc can be done in less than 24 hours thanks to the constant nerfing... hell I'd like to believe RoTZ could probably be beat in under 8 hours.

Since when has running around a very static world to do nothing been considered content? This is not an FPS where every map/zone is different and you can explore for 40-60 hours and then move on to the next game and never look back. The HPs were added to zones that we've all been to 100 times because it was simply a smart thing to do and has nothing to do with exploration. I don't think anyone hated the addition of Domenic in Lower Jeuno because he made bcnms so much less time-consuming, which is what you're implying.

Honestly, while I can safely say sometimes I hated making treks to the BCNM areas, the FFXI world is one of the few MMO worlds that feels complete to me. Maybe its because its my first MMO, and maybe its because i was forced more-or-less to endure the world from a running view instead of insta-warping myself from point to point like most MMOs offer these days... But what you're doing at this point is dismissing any and all things you don't find to be "content" based entirely on your own justifications and opinions on what should and should not have to be done in order to access anything.

In one instance you claim relevant content should punish you for passing it up, while ignoring the fact CoP is relevant because of the Relic upgrades and Rajas Ring, regardless how old the content is. HPs were a nice addition and i'll agree, but its also dangerous as its making the game world, which until now has been more enjoyable and real, and turning it into another Modern-MMO copy where the game world is almost entirely skippable, making it unremarkable and easily detached from peoples perceptions of the game.

Its pretty silly the lot of you can't take an hour out of your play time to complete these still relevant missions simply because it involves travelling. Most locations of which are less than 5 minutes walk from any given Outpost of Home point.

Its not difficult nor time consuming, its probably one of the least time consuming and most rewarding quests you can do in the game right now, hell you can even activate some of the NM RoE trials and probably complete a few while you travel for the quests. There is no reasonable reason this should be removed from Relic upgrades.

detlef

03-04-2014, 04:43 AM

Um.....clearly the person who pays is the one who decides. SE offers a product, and we, as customers, are their collective boss. You and a lot of others on this forum have it backwards. When someone chooses to skip ancient content, they should not be punished for it. Only when they choose to skip current, relevant content should they be "punished," i.e. I choose not to do Salvage II and Legion because I hate their design, thus I do not get rewards from Salvage II and Legion. But if a new player joins now they cannot choose because they are locked out until they go through all the expansions. My play time is not extremely limited like some others, but the last thing I'd do if I only had 3 hours/week to play is do missions. If I went to another MMO today, I would want to level up asap and play with others.My point is that two different people will probably play the game in vastly different ways. One person might find great enjoyment in something the other finds to be an irksome chore.

Also, let's define "locked out." Is a player really locked out Dynamis because you need Rank 6 in a nation? Is a player locked out of Ark Angels because you need to do Zilart missions? My answer would be no, but maybe your opinion is the opposite.

I understand that what people don't like is that AF and Relic armor is unrelated to CoP... But that's not really true since CoP is obviously how you get AF+1 and Relic +1 pieces. I happen to think that SE intended for people to go from NQ to +1 to +2 to 109 and so on. After all, they gave us free +1 upgrade items through Login campaign. But they also decided to be nice and throw people a bone to let them skip the +1 step. To me, that doesn't change the fact that the process is supposed to involve unlocking Limbus and upgrading to AF+1 or doing Dynamis-Dreamlands and upgrading Relic +1.

But with that said, I don't really care anymore. Let people do the upgrades, it sounds like if they can't they'll just quit. I disagree but not strongly enough to carry on arguing. It's just a different way of playing and judging other people's play style takes too much energy.

Olor

03-04-2014, 05:51 AM

Here we are again, in the suggestion topic asking for them to remove it as a requirement! People seem to forget what topic they're posting in.

Man, all you people just repeat the same stuff over and over again. "We hate doing this stuff, but we had to do it, so you should too!" Not only that, you're grouping all quests together as a complaint. No, we're saying we want CoP removed from being a requirement for something we believe would be better off without it.

SE adds a new set of armor, yet you need to have completed hours/days of questing implemented 10 years ago in order to access it.

It's a suggestion thread. Stop just ultimately saying "it is how it is, deal with it or quit." It COULD change and make a better game, hence the thread suggesting that change. If you agree that it's not fun, why don't you just support the suggestion instead of just telling everyone "too bad?"

I don't understand these people. Seriously. There is no good reason why reforged AF should require CoP - none. It makese no sense and it is a horrible, soul-crushing road block. Thanks to those who understand what I am asking for rather than just trolling this thread endlessly with masochism and suggestions that those of us who want the game to be fun for newer players, or who prefer that modern content not be gated by 10 year old content should just quit

But with that said, I don't really care anymore. Let people do the upgrades, it sounds like if they can't they'll just quit. I disagree but not strongly enough to carry on arguing. It's just a different way of playing and judging other people's play style takes too much energy.

Thank you.

Please be aware - even if they remove this gate, I will eventually finish CoP. It's just I don't want it to be shoved down my throat. I've never really been into the story in RPGs - for me it has always been about leveling up, finding gear, and making my character stronger.

I have picked away at CoP here and there, but especially right now when I have less than 3 hours to play a week, I want to make meaningful progress on my character - and running between CS is not progress to me.

Also to whomever said 'but X amount of missions have battles' almost every mission with a battle in CoP first requires 3-8 steps that are CSes not battles.

Mefuki

03-04-2014, 06:21 AM

Olor

03-04-2014, 06:32 AM

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult but I just don't see how this, of all things, is a "roadblock". Getting through the Necropolis by yourself is a roadblock. Acquiring your 3 Beastman king kills in Aht Urgan is a roadblock. Getting to floor 100 in old Neo-Nyzul was a roadblock.

CoP can be entirely soloed and only takes a couple of days or even A day to finish. I guess I'm just failing to see how this "roadblock" differs from having to have Rank 6 to do Dynamis then needing city clears to get into Dynamis-Beaucdine, needing Zilart missions to do Ark Angels, or needing to level Toad to 90 for that excellent 20% Haste instinct. It's all stuff that has a great benefit to complete and is fully within reach for any player to do.

But I guess some of us just have different ideas about what "roadblock" means.

It's about having to do unrelated, 10 year old story content to use the items I can already get to upgrade armor I already have. That's the difference. If you had to finish ToAU to unlock monstrosity - that would be a roadblock. If you had to finish Wings of the Goddess to enter Adoulin - that would be a roadblock.

You don't even need rank 6 etc to get gear from dyna beaucidine - you can get it from the login campaigns.

As I said above, I'd even be happy to settle for just not needing to finish COP for the relic upgrades - it just doesn't make sense to let me upgrade them to +2 and then to say HA HA HA HA too bad go solo 5 days worth of COMPLETELY UNRELATED cut scenes to get access to the next level!

If there was a "reforging quest" I would do it, that would be reasonable - but COP has nothing to do with reforging.

Gannon

03-04-2014, 07:05 AM

AF and Relic upgrading have been related to CoP for years. Now it actually matters and is exposing the lazy folk for who they really are.

Lithera

03-04-2014, 07:06 AM

It has everything to do with reforging. How do you not see that they chose to tie it to the only npc that dealt with the original way to upgrade those parts? Also the rewards from log-in change so that is not an every day option also it requires you to holy crap get a lot of points to get more than one item. You would still have a higher chance of getting the piece if you go into dynamis and farm it. Meanwhile you get dynamis currency that you can sell for various reasons. Again until we know other wise this path is/was the only way they could put it into the game because how they code things. I doubt SE went oh let's see how can we screw over a minority of players with our new reforging system? Before they went and put it in.

Olor why do you even play ROLEPLAYING games in the first place if you don't like the story? That is probably the #1 thing that is thought of and a lot of time spent on in an RPG. There are better types of games where you can do all of the things you say you love to do. Like action/adventure games, or survival horror, fps ect.

Edit: it was me and those steps before the fight are normally a different mission. They normally have been good in not needing to do too much before the fight when it comes to the mission they are a part of.

AppropriateName5786

03-04-2014, 08:38 AM

Olor why do you even play ROLEPLAYING games in the first place if you don't like the story? That is probably the #1 thing that is thought of and a lot of time spent on in an RPG. There are better types of games where you can do all of the things you say you love to do. Like action/adventure games, or survival horror, fps ect.

I seriously don't remember the last time I saw a Taru player talk in rhymes or lisp in party chat, or a Mithra player who adds thrrree "r"s to everrry worrrd with an "r." Which part of FFXI's story has brave adventurers AFKzaaring for hours on end until a decent shout shows up? Which hero of Altana killed the same mob for 6 hours straight to buy several KIs for the AA fights? ROLEPLAYING is 5% of this game's content, if even that. The rest is a gear treadmill, which has nothing to do with roleplaying. For instance, when I'm in Nyzul Isle doing stuff, the last thing I care about is that the ruins are protected by an undersea bubble and that the columns might be able to rotate etc. No, I care about finding the right enemy to kill, and finding a lamp to activate. The OP has already repeated numerous times that he/she will complete the story and likes it, but having the expansion block content that is relevant in March of 2014 is the issue which no one seems to understand.

Also, the story is good, but if it's as good as everyone claims, then it deserves to be done of its own merit and the people arguing against the OP wouldn't have to keep repeating "But it's so good!" like a broken record. Do the best TV shows beg people to watch them? No, people tune in by the millions to watch something worth watching. In the same vein, people like the OP and other new players "tune in" to FFXI to fight the interesting battles that everyone else is fighting and collect ilevel gear, not to go through content that's almost a decade old, watching cutscenes that have been on youtube for years, and running around a world that is so empty you can easily run into a couple lottery spawn NMs per zone without even trying.

Ravenmore

03-04-2014, 09:27 AM

I seriously don't remember the last time I saw a Taru player talk in rhymes or lisp in party chat, or a Mithra player who adds thrrree "r"s to everrry worrrd with an "r." Which part of FFXI's story has brave adventurers AFKzaaring for hours on end until a decent shout shows up? Which hero of Altana killed the same mob for 6 hours straight to buy several KIs for the AA fights? ROLEPLAYING is 5% of this game's content, if even that. The rest is a gear treadmill, which has nothing to do with roleplaying. For instance, when I'm in Nyzul Isle doing stuff, the last thing I care about is that the ruins are protected by an undersea bubble and that the columns might be able to rotate etc. No, I care about finding the right enemy to kill, and finding a lamp to activate. The OP has already repeated numerous times that he/she will complete the story and likes it, but having the expansion block content that is relevant in March of 2014 is the issue which no one seems to understand.

Also, the story is good, but if it's as good as everyone claims, then it deserves to be done of its own merit and the people arguing against the OP wouldn't have to keep repeating "But it's so good!" like a broken record. Do the best TV shows beg people to watch them? No, people tune in by the millions to watch something worth watching. In the same vein, people like the OP and other new players "tune in" to FFXI to fight the interesting battles that everyone else is fighting and collect ilevel gear, not to go through content that's almost a decade old, watching cutscenes that have been on youtube for years, and running around a world that is so empty you can easily run into a couple lottery spawn NMs per zone without even trying.

Then why buy any game, all the CS will end up on youtube in a couple of weeks after release and you would save 60 to 70 bucks a pop. I know it you want to say it's not the same but really it is. Also would everyone stop kidding them selves into thinking there is some great influx of new players there isn't and hasn't been since xbox release. Even if you took away CoP requirement those few new players we do get would hit cap and cap out on gear with in a couple of months and off to the next MMO they want to kill time with.

Hey I even understand the limited play time thing and not wanting to do a expansion's missions but I also accept that if SoA(which has tropes I'm totally sick of) were to offer a amazing reward at the end or a new endgame activity I would either have to suck up my dislike of SoA missions and story or do without at this point most likely do with out. Some of reforge is good but it no where near game breaking and just like it was before most of it is macro pieces. But you know what the great thing about it is, you don't need to have CoP finished to do the content that the chapters come from so the biggest problem with gated content is removed, just stock pile a bunch of chapters while finishing CoP.

Crevox

03-04-2014, 09:44 AM

Also would everyone stop kidding them selves into thinking there is some great influx of new players there isn't and hasn't been since xbox release.

So let's all just give up on making changes that would make the game better for new players! Clearly no one new plays this game anyways, and it's bound to fail soon due to zero new players ever playing it.

</ end obvious sarcasm>

Demonjustin

03-04-2014, 10:48 AM

AF and Relic upgrading have been related to CoP for years. Now it actually matters and is exposing the lazy folk for who they really are.I completed CoP, I finished the expansion long ago, I still agree with removing the requirement, this makes me lazy because...?

Gannon

03-04-2014, 10:54 AM

I completed CoP, I finished the expansion long ago, I still agree with removing the requirement, this makes me lazy because...?

Then that makes you arguing for the sake of arguing.

Crevox

03-04-2014, 12:03 PM

Then that makes you arguing for the sake of arguing.

I did the expansion already too, if you read the thread. It means we care about the game going into the future for new players, and aren't just trying to skip a requirement like so many of you are trying so hard to believe.

Yes, there are also people in this thread that haven't done it yet and want this change, but that's because it's a good change to make.

Demonjustin

03-04-2014, 12:05 PM

Then that makes you arguing for the sake of arguing.No, it makes me arguing for the sake of others, rather than just myself. I have said multiple times and will continue to do so that this change would do nothing more than help new players, it would hurt current or older players in no way at all while making the game easier to access for newer players.

Now
You completed CoP already? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You didn't complete CoP yet? You must do this first to upgrade your gear.
You are new to the game and haven't done CoP? You must do this first to upgrade your gear, no exceptions.

Proposed change.
You completed CoP already? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You didn't complete CoP yet? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You are new to the game and haven't done CoP? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.

Tell me, what is bad about this change? How is this arguing for the sake of arguing when it would benefit others even if I myself will gain nothing from it?

Demonjustin

03-04-2014, 12:07 PM

I did the expansion already too, if you read the thread. It means we care about the game going into the future for new players, and aren't just trying to skip a requirement like so many of you are trying so hard to believe.Isn't it kinda funny how if the request is not selfish in at least some way that we are seemingly not allowed to make the request in the first place?

Zarchery

03-04-2014, 09:45 PM

Tell me, what is bad about this change? How is this arguing for the sake of arguing when it would benefit others even if I myself will gain nothing from it?

I think what's bad about the change is that the hurdle it asks to remove is an insignificant one. Problem with this is that if you remove one insignificant hurdle, there will still be other insignificant hurdles that people don't like. Every time that someone doesn't like a task, there will be a demand to remove it, along with the justification "it is a good idea because it will attract new players".

"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."

Someone in another thread likened this meme to the tendency of lobbyists in real life to advocate all sorts of legislation on the idea that it will create jobs. I like this comparison because it is so apt.

Crevox, who is such a big advocate of this, burnt out and quit after two months, during which, reading his posts, he hated just about every minute of the game. Exactly how profitable is it for Square Enix to bend over backwards to attract players like that? Even if the CoP requirements were removed, they'd just find some other insignificant thing to claim was "blocking" them and demand that be removed. Doing Walk of Echoes requires you to get through 5 quests in Wings of the Goddess, out of the 67 in the entire storyline. It takes a few hours at best. I helped a guy do this last month and he complained at every step of the way, and ragequit a month later.

I guess what I'm saying is that the CoP requirements may seem pointless, but they're sort of like application fees you pay or initiation rites you go through to join some clubs. They show you're serious. If you can't deal with the easy stuff, you're never gonna make it through the hard parts.

Demonjustin

03-05-2014, 06:38 AM

"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."This is why this conversation is pointless.

Crevox

03-05-2014, 10:32 AM

This is why this conversation is pointless.

It's not worth reading his posts. He just puts words in everyone's mouth and doesn't read anything anyone says. He wants to believe that all newbies just want to get rushed to end game, hate the game, and don't want to do anything. He wants to believe that so hard he will just keep posting it in every thread over and over and over. I've given up on him.

Olor

03-05-2014, 10:38 AM

I think what's bad about the change is that the hurdle it asks to remove is an insignificant one. Problem with this is that if you remove one insignificant hurdle, there will still be other insignificant hurdles that people don't like. Every time that someone doesn't like a task, there will be a demand to remove it, along with the justification "it is a good idea because it will attract new players".

"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."

I'd appreciate it if you stayed on topic. I am not asking for any of these things. Please keep your criticism to the matter at hand. If other players request the things you are asking for, you are welcome to criticize those requests in the appropriate thread.

I'd appreciate it if you responded to my specific request or refrained from posting in this thread, thanks.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-05-2014, 11:11 AM

Some perspective:

When Treasures of Aht Urhgan was released, Square-Enix had to figure out what to do with the job-specific equipment for the three new jobs that came with the expansion. Rise of the Zilart's Dynamis and Chains of Promathia's Limbus addressed gear for the fifteen jobs released prior to Treasures of Aht Urhgan, but the idea was that new equipment for the new jobs should come from new content (e.g. relic-style equipment for the three new jobs would come from Einherjar).

Relic and artifact-upgrade equipment for these three jobs were only added to Dynamis and Limbus (respectively) in September of 2008, after the release of Wings of the Goddess(!). S-E addressed the long wait and the decision process to add new jobs to old content here (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/3551/detail.html).

Ultimately these jobs were added to old content because Status Quo is God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod), but I believe more specifically it was because Dynamis is a SACRED COW, then as now, while suddenly you had three (later five) jobs who had zero reason to put up with that nonsense (and build a relic weapon they can't equip?). And so these jobs had gear added to Dynamis (in a very delicate way that did not interfere with drops for the older 15 jobs, because SACRED COW), even though other prospective alternatives events like Salvage and Nyzul Isul Investigation never wanted for participation. Drops were added to Limbus as an afterthought, mostly to avoid the appearance of special treatment to Dynamis.

(Note, for example, the Imperial Standing equipment that can only be equipped by the then-new jobs.)

It is only now, five years later, that S-E decided that it was silly to keep forcing new jobs to go through old content.

My point: to those who insist that getting Limbus access to even simply be able to skip over AF+1 is "sacred tradition" that shan't be modified for any reason on pain of death, for at least five jobs it was never supposed to be that way. It was originally a tactless kludge aimed at avoiding the kinds of butthurt we see today over RME weapons, and I personally fail to see why newer players should continue to be punished for the sensibilities of older players.

Karbuncle

03-05-2014, 11:29 AM

At best the argument is just guess work and conjecture. You have no evidence of support that It was not suppose to be added to those areas or that the devs did it simply cause "Dynamis Ex Machina". I'll admit theres some chance they just did it because it'd be easier or to make sure no one would complain those jobs got relic easier/harder, but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis. It does have some reason behind it but stating it as solid or fact is just off.

Still, I'm not claiming it should stay because its a right of passage, I'm saying it should stay because its already stupidly easy to complete CoP, and theres more than just AF to benefit from it. I again say I would not be strictly opposed to the change, but nothing about beating CoP requires any hardcore level of time devotion, even at the minimilast of plays times it can be completed within a week or so, its the most reasonably accessible and easy storyline with the biggest payoff.

The rewards are laid out, and it shouldn't be cut from the process simply because one doesn't want to have to bother with it. I will say Ziygs that you probably come closes to a reasonable reason why it should be changed, although you state it in a profoundly exaggerated way, but I imagine you did so with purpose.

Anyway, I feel I am at odds with myself, I'm finding it difficult to determine why exactly i side against the idea. I think the only reason I write to oppose such an idea is because I dislike people who want to skip to the end jumping over all the obstacles others have done just because they want the reward without the work. Its not like all of us skipped CoP, and most of is did it back when it could take months.

If it still took months to complete, I'd be standing here saying "sh*t needs to change", but its doesn't, and I'm not, because the constant CoP nerfs make it a menial task at best and the rewards are still great.

so while CoP, old it may be, irrelevant it is not. Just because its not Delve doesn't mean its dead content, While most of the rewards come from the completion of the Story-line, like Rajas ring and the Tie-in RoTZ/CoP Fight earring, those items are still useful to a 99 player in delve gear, making them as relevant as any of the current content.

We'll see how this turns out, It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place.

Demonjustin

03-05-2014, 11:36 AM

It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place.Just want to say. While I do somewhat agree that it's unlikely they remove it, they really didn't specifically place the CoP restriction on these pieces of gear, they attached the old Limbus NPC to the new Reforged NPC which by chain, requires CoP to be completed to talk to the Reforged NPC. So while they did place the restriction, they didn't do it directly, and since that's the case I feel like it's more likely that they simply remove the restriction since as you said it wouldn't be the first time they removed restrictions on old content.

Karbuncle

03-05-2014, 11:40 AM

Demonjustin

03-05-2014, 12:12 PM

I was considering mentioning that as a possibilty to be honest, But I decided it would be best to tackle later. They did add an entirely new NPC for the Relic/AF Reforging, one would think if they wanted too, they could of detached her from AF Upgrades, but they didn't, they added her to the AF upgrade NPC likely for a reason.

But this is simply me assuming if they wasted time adding an entirely new NPC for the sole purpose of Reforging AF/Relic, they could have detached her from CoP if they so wanted.I agree for sure, they did go out of their way to tie them together it seems, but in either case I just wanted to make the point that it is tied together with CoP only because of the NPC they tied her to, not by specifically tying the NPC in question to CoP itself.

I honestly assumed they tied the NPCs together because of all NPCs in the game, only 2 NPCs have ever touched our AF, Relic, or Empyrean gear, that would be the original Limbus NPC and the Trials of Magian Armor Moogle. I assume that lore wise, they thought it best to simply use her again, but this time rather than having her directly do it they made a new NPC. They have alluded to the fact that putting to much on 1 NPC is a bad idea, and the fact that she is so old could make it harder to add more things to her in the first place, so I think part of it might be that they wanted to use her and the lore reason she can have our gear upgraded, but at the same time didn't want to mess with the NPC herself, instead they created another one associated with her to do the job.

It's all hypothetical though.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-05-2014, 12:38 PM

I'll try not to hijack the thread, but...

I'd like to believe you have magical psychic powers but somethings tells me you don't, so your final divination there is naught but conjecture.

Perhaps, but I've never seen a Goblin Puppetmaster in Temenos, or a colibri in Apollyon.

but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis.

No Hydra Scholars (let alone beastman scholars) in Dynamis - Beaucedine, Dynamis - Tavnazia or in the Vana'diel Tribune. More damningly, there aren't even any Hydra Scholars in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes, after they'd already set the precedent of adding new JSE to old content and knew what was coming. And, of course, no relic weapons (made for the Hydra Corps) equipable by SCH.

Seriously, the only other times they've added new drops to old content were explicitly and exclusively in response to player behavior, such as when HNM drops were moved to BCNMs and Ex gear offered in their place.

Kludge is as kludge does. All available evidence points to it.

Karbuncle

03-05-2014, 02:10 PM

I'll try not to hijack the thread, but...

Perhaps, but I've never seen a Goblin Puppetmaster in Temenos, or a colibri in Apollyon.

No Hydra Scholars (let alone beastman scholars) in Dynamis - Beaucedine, Dynamis - Tavnazia or in the Vana'diel Tribune. More damningly, there aren't even any Hydra Scholars in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes, after they'd already set the precedent of adding new JSE to old content and knew what was coming. And, of course, no relic weapons (made for the Hydra Corps) equipable by SCH.

Seriously, the only other times they've added new drops to old content were explicitly and exclusively in response to player behavior, such as when HNM drops were moved to BCNMs and Ex gear offered in their place.

Kludge is as kludge does. All available evidence points to it.

Most of the things you mentioned could be easily dismissed as "They had nothing to base them off of yet" when the game came out, and you can't rightly add a PUP Goblin to Temenos when PUP doesn't exist, and going back to add new jobs/mobs to an event is something they've never(or not in my memory) have done. Plus, there are always jobs that are limited to certain beastmen with Event fights being the only exception.

Trolls get PUP, Mamool got BLU, Lamia got COR, Quadavs have PLD, RNG, Yagudo have NIN, Summoner, Goblins have... IDK, Orcs have DRG... Theres always been job exclusive certain Beastmen, again, events being the only exception, or to a more accurate extent, Notorious Monsters.

I'm sure thats relevant somehow.

Admittedly SCH and DNC were added later in, but lore wise they existed in the WoTG-Era where Hydra existed. Had the jobs been conceptualized during the Dynamis era they would be Hydra Scholars and Hydra Dancers... Lore wise they fit, lack of those jobs existing at the time is the only reason they aren't in there, and likely the reason they were left out of later (S) missions to not cause confusion based on their lack of appearance in Dynamis. This example basically means the idea that there are no PUP Goblins in Temenos irrelevant because the job didn't exist at the time of the events inception, whereas if the jobs were around at that time, there likely would be.

There are a few SCH main mobs too, All-Seeing Onyx Eye is a SCH. Regardless, Lack of Hydra in dynamis I think I've explained above, the concept of the ideas had not existed, and this would not be the first time they've retconned something when adding a new job, It should be thought of no different now.

When it comes down to jobs and Enemies in events, what matters the most is Lore, the only thing that makes little to no sense is ToAU jobs in Dynamis, as COR, PUP, and BLU didn't really exist in the Three kingdoms during the crystal war, so theres no reason for their relic to come from there other than balance, especially since at one point I believe it was actually mentioned that the East purposefully avoided the conflict during the crystal war. So that at point is rather valid, even if just guess work.

With that said, There's another logical trail to follow. They likely didn't show SCH or DNC in the Hydra corps because had they been in them, players would question why there weren't any Hydra SCH or DNC in the Dynamis all this time. Either way, adding them or not, theres a retcon. By adding the Equipment to dynamis, they imply they existed there, but by not adding them to the Hydra Corps in the (S) Cutscenes, they imply they weren't a part of the expedition. In reality it contradicts itself, and there-in is the problem. The entirety of it is a contradiction, as is the problem with "Time travel", the only odd men out here are the ToAU Jobs and Dynamis equipment, which I've conceded is likely due to BALANCE as it has not basis in lore.

Regardless, as your first sentence says, this has nothing to due with the original argument.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-05-2014, 06:37 PM

Most of the things you mentioned could be easily dismissed as "They had nothing to base them off of yet" when the game came out,

The game launched with Yagudo SMNs and Orcish DRGs. Those jobs weren't accessible to players until Rise of the Zilart was released 11 months later.

Conversely, Limbus was released barely six months before the release of Treasures of Aht Urhgan (and one month after teaser shots, including the new jobs, were first shown to the public), and the lore surrounding it ties extremely heavily to the soon-to-be-released expansion. Nag'molada can't even bring himself to say "Temenos" ("Ou'Hpat Obelisk," anyone?) but "Aht Urhgan" and "Blue Mage" got name-dropped.

Plus, there are always jobs that are limited to certain beastmen with Event fights being the only exception.

Dynamis gave all four beastman tribes access to all then-current 15 jobs, giving us the likes of Orcish NINs and Yagudo DRGs (for which they don't even have the right weapons!).

and this would not be the first time they've retconned something when adding a new job

Example, please.

When it comes down to jobs and Enemies in events, what matters the most is Lore

The Hydra Corps was created specifically for the Battle of Xarcabard, so why are they in Dynamis - Tavnazia? Nevermind the fact that the Marquisette was destroyed before the Corps was created.

Lore went out the window where relic+1 is concerned even before new jobs were added. So why must relic+3 rely on the same mechanics?

Karbuncle

03-06-2014, 01:33 AM

The game launched with Yagudo SMNs and Orcish DRGs. Those jobs weren't accessible to players until Rise of the Zilart was released 11 months later.

Which was because those jobs were already conceptualized, completed and ready for implementation(Or you're pulling my leg, but I don't remember these being in the Beta either). You'll have a hard time convincing me SCH and DNC were conceptualized during RoTZ Era. I mentioned "conceptualized" specifically because of this example, So I've already covered it and it changes nothing. As far as the Limbus and it being released 6 months before ToAU? With that all we can do is guess. It could be because they hadn't dropped COR or PUP yet, or that the jobs were still incomplete as teaser trailers hardly define finished products. While it does beg against the conceptualized idea and I admit that, It has other possible reasons.

Dynamis gave all four beastman tribes access to all then-current 15 jobs, giving us the likesof Orcish NINs and Yagudo DRGs (for which they don't even have the right weapons!).

Also mentioned.

Example, please.

SCH and DNC existing in Crystal Era, but not in Dynamis. If you wan't something before that, I can't think of any, but its only because its been 11 gd years and I don't feel like digging up every quest during the Pre-RoTZ or ToAU era, which I admit is my fault and I likely flubbed this example.

The Hydra Corps was created specifically for the Battle of Xarcabard, so why are they in Dynamis - Tavnazia? Nevermind the fact that the Marquisette was destroyed before the Corps was created.

Eh, True enough? Are you sure about that lore-wise? I swore they were simply a special task force between the three Kingdoms. Investigating/Combating Xarcabard was just their big thing.

[quote]Lore went out the window where relic+1 is concerned even before new jobs were added. So why must relic+3 rely on the same mechanics?

mmm, What? How did Lore go out the window with Relic+1. Serious question I must have missed it.

Regardless of all of this, You do have a point, SE has in a lot of cases tossed lore to the window, and SE has in a lot of cases worked on the size of lazy implementation over lore, so theres a lot of annoyances to work around and while I'm sure theres a good chance you are correct, theres a good chance you're wrong too, I just don't have the time or motivation to dig through 13 or some odd years of FFXI related quests and content to counter an off topic argument.

Zarchery

03-06-2014, 02:20 AM

I'd appreciate it if you stayed on topic. I am not asking for any of these things. Please keep your criticism to the matter at hand. If other players request the things you are asking for, you are welcome to criticize those requests in the appropriate thread.

I'd appreciate it if you responded to my specific request or refrained from posting in this thread, thanks.

That is on topic. That was the exact topic. I am explaining why removing the CoP requirements (the topic of the thread) is a bad idea. Did you just not read the first paragraph of my post?

I'm not saying that anyone is making these requests. I'm saying that it is virtually inevitable that they will, based on historical observation. When Abyssea made levelling from 30 to cap easy, people requested that the level requirement be lowered to 1 so that it would be even easier. Whenever SE adds more inventory space, people demand even more. A guy last month asked that Dynamis currency requirements, which were made much easier (you can solo farm for currency and get much more in a week) due to the 2011 Dynamis revamp, be cut by 90%.

Here is the point, again.... The Chains of Promathia storyline is easy for anyone to complete solo. It is not a difficult hurdle, and most people seem to agree about that. However, some people do not. The game will never be easy enough to be acceptable to everyone. Furthermore, if you can't handle this, you'll never handle anything that actually takes time and you'll quit because of that instead. It's like a guy who flounders in pre-med during undergraduate courses is never going to be a good doctor.

Zarchery

03-06-2014, 02:22 AM

It's not worth reading his posts. He just puts words in everyone's mouth and doesn't read anything anyone says. He wants to believe that all newbies just want to get rushed to end game, hate the game, and don't want to do anything. He wants to believe that so hard he will just keep posting it in every thread over and over and over. I've given up on him.

How's that ignore function working out for you?

You, very obviously want to rush to endgame. You already did, then complained about it.

Mirage

03-06-2014, 02:29 AM

Now that I think about it, I don't think relic reforging should require CoP. AF should, though.

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-06-2014, 03:35 AM

Which was because those jobs were already conceptualized, completed and ready for implementation

And I'm wildly speculating?

If you wan't something before that, I can't think of any

And yet you're confident enough to insist there were examples?

Are you sure about that lore-wise?

Go to Sauromugue Champaign [S] and ask Ramblix (Goblin Footprint) to reshow you the cutscene for "Another World." Discussing the destruction of Tavnazia and the introduction of the never-before-seen Hydra Corps (as a part of the coming Battle of Xarcabard) in the same cutscene.

mmm, What? How did Lore go out the window with Relic+1. Serious question I must have missed it

Relic +1 requires CoP Dynamis
CoP Dynamis features Hydra Corps
Lore states Hydra Corps should not be in CoP Dynamis, especially not Dynamis - Tavnazia
Ergo, lore got thrown out the window for relic +1

I just don't have the time or motivation to dig through 13 or some odd years of FFXI related quests and content to counter an off topic argument.

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

Olor

03-06-2014, 03:47 AM

Now that I think about it, I don't think relic reforging should require CoP. AF should, though.

This is a compromise I'd be willing to accept.

AppropriateName5786

03-06-2014, 05:23 AM

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

The sensible and logical arguments for not blocking content for new players have been made so many times, it's pretty clear everyone who is against this change simply cannot see further than the tip of their nose. I ascribe it to a lack of intellect, and Zarchery is one of the worst culprits.

This group of players is very zealous, I'll give them that. However, their zeal for FFXI is so selfish and misdirected that SE itself would probably be horrified if they cared to look into the situation. It's like Sears or some other old giant chain with dedicated shoppers who is getting hugely outdone by Walmart/Target, and trying to keep itself afloat by finally making changes to rectify some old inefficiencies (e.g. doing monthly updates now). Little did Sears know, though, that their loyal but highly stubborn, stuck-up, and very self-entitled baby boomer customers flip off younger shoppers as a habit, and when some new shoppers suggested to Sears that they play some upbeat music to make shopping even more enjoyable, a group of baby boomers gathered with pitchforks and torches and yelled "If you don't like things the way they are, get out!"

Mefuki

03-06-2014, 06:32 AM

But this is not like how leveling used to be where you COULD NOT progress without other people. Where if the correct jobs or people weren't online, you were dead in the water.

Or Legion, where you simply weren't "allowed" to join without the "correct" jobs. Where if you were only interested in playing with the "wrong" job, you were dead in the water.

Heck, even current Delve I could CONCEIVE how someone would think that even IT is a minor "roadblock" because you still need to know some people who are decently geared and know the NM's strategies etc.

I could go on but the point for me is not so much that this is a bad idea per se. It's that, out of all the accessibility issues the game has and SE is attempting to rectify, it's really not worth complaining about. There's nothing "dead in the water" or "roadblock"-y about CoP. You just have to go and do it, on your own or with others, any time you want. So, I don't see the issue.

Andros

03-06-2014, 06:59 AM

Look at it this way: you at least are able to gather the requirements necessary to obtain those items immediately when you unlock sea. You're a lucky one.

If I was new wanted to play as a SCH, I would need to clear CoP for obis. For these, I would need the drops from sea creatures, which outside of a select few, are completely unobtainable until I get there. Has SE done anything about this? No. Did I ever see anyone complain about this? No, until now, people would rather complain about not being able to finish the items that you can get the materials from by doing whatever you want (even CoP missions). It's been 7 years for me and this is how far we've come.

SE COULD remove these restrictions, but certain newer players will continue to get screwed over and turned away from the game! That is why this suggestion is absolutely terrible. If I was a newer player I'd be rushed to complete CoP so I could farm the items for obis so I could lvl SCH- not for the items that are BEYOND max level that I already get items needed for them by doing whatever. When will I be allowed to work on Obis without sea? Brutal/Loq earring? tamas/rajas/sattva? WS gorgets? Or will these just be forgotten until the next forum complaint? I'm saying all this because I have no problem with a change like this at all if it actually covered the complete issue here.

I only decided to post this because I am the SCH and had to go through the same 'rush' except often I had no hope of progress thanks to battlefields. I've even finished CoP twice now, once before and after the changes. Did I quit because of NEEDing to do CoP? No. I really wanted to back when I couldn't find a party to complete it, but the fact that is was a daunting task back then and gave me stuff to do made it all the more rewarding and fun when I completed it. Doing CoP without the fear of battlefields was the most relaxing time I've had in this game. Remembering that people needed teleports to prom-Vahzl islands in case they couldn't complete them all before people had to go made me laugh as I cleared it in minutes.

It's funny because the missions that make CoP get so much hate now are so obviously The Road Forks and Three Paths. Just look at this gap between Promyvions and Aqueducts, two CSs right next to eachother. I'm really missing that website that was completely devoted to CoP mission strategies right about now.

Olor

03-06-2014, 08:07 AM

I didn't pretend this would fix everything. Personally, I'd like to see items like the elemental obis have more than one method of obtaining them (or obtaining something like them). That said, expecting a suggestion to fix every problem in existence in order to support it is a pretty high bar to set, don't you think?

I appreciate your measured response, however. There is definitely a larger problem with certain jobs (SMN is the worst) needing ridiculous amounts of leg work to be usable. I don't like that, but it's something I am willing to accept because I could work on other, easier to equip jobs. But now, EVERY JOB is roadblocked by COP. It sucks. I am really unhappy about this. I am torn. I want to cancel my sub to send a message but I love the game... this puts me in a hard position. That said, this roadblock upset me so much I haven't logged in since I discovered it, so I'd probably just be wasting my crysta if I continue my sub.

Again, I appreciate your input Andros.

Karbuncle

03-06-2014, 09:18 AM

Conversely, Limbus was released barely six months before the release of Treasures of Aht Urhgan (and one month after teaser shots, including the new jobs, were first shown to the public), and the lore surrounding it ties extremely heavily to the soon-to-be-released expansion. Nag'molada can't even bring himself to say "Temenos" ("Ou'Hpat Obelisk," anyone?) but "Aht Urhgan" and "Blue Mage" got name-dropped.

Okay, I thought about this on the way to work and kicked myself for not bringing it up. Sorry if you've responded but heres the thing . Why would the Beastmen of the Mindartia and (Quon?) Continent have any knowledge of Near eastern jobs?

Lore wise, None of the beastmen on our continent should know a darn thing about BLU, PUP, or COR, because none of those jobs existed on these Continents during the time in question, therefor, regardless of those jobs being in the game, none of the beastmen in Dynamis or Temenos era (Temenos era i think dates back to the Kuluu!) would have any knowledge on how to be a PUP, COR, or BLU.

Theres no Mamool Ja teaching Quadavs how to BLU, no Trolls teaching them Orcs... and so forth. These jobs don't exist in this content simply because lore wise the Beastmen did not know of these jobs, as the Near Eastern culture is distinct and almost entirely cut off from our mainland, and actually actively avoided the Crystal War conflict.

Thus, their lack of appearance in those events fits into lore.

As far as job retcons. DRG itself I believe left some "huh" questions. If i recall, DRG even during the Crystal War were and in current times, both cited in the DRG quest and by Achtelle, were extinct or incredibly rare. Their existence in the Hydra corps itself is rather unusual. Exact quotes from Achtelle are

"Are you ... a dragoon!? That is a most welcome relief. I had come to ascertain for myself whether or not there are still those to carry on the ways of our kind.".
So the existence of DRGs in Dynamis itself i believe is a mystery as very few were even known to exist back then, to the point Achtelle believes they are all but lost to time. So is this a past retcon or future?!

This isn't concrete though, just in game text, and I can't find the scripts of the DRG quest line but I think I do recall it revolving around the loss of the DRG trade as a job and refinding it or something.... Vampires IDK.

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

Theres a fine difference between digging through 13 years of lore on a Wiki page and a screen with no exact info on where or what I'm going to find, and Completing a highly rewarding and well made Mission storyling in an MMO. Though, if you think FFXI is as boring as digging through wiki documents with no clear cut end in site I wonder why you still play. :D! But srsly, you made the comparison first I'm just saying.

Mirage actually provided a logic step I was thinking about at work today. I'd accept a removal of Relic from the CoP grasps. Anyway, this argument is straying into "Getting offended/Taking it personally" and short quipped responses from you, instead of what it is, a simple debate of views, so I'll probably be getting off this ride soon as I don't want the thread locked or either of us suspended over something dumb >_>

Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

03-06-2014, 01:26 PM

Why would the Beastmen of the Mindartia and (Quon?) Continent have any knowledge of Near eastern jobs?

Why would Yagudo know about Dragoon, or Orcs about Summoner? Why would either be lugging around gear for Aradjiah jobs?

Lore wise, None of the beastmen on our continent should know a darn thing about BLU, PUP, or COR, because none of those jobs existed on these Continents during the time in question,

Lore-wise, the Moblins of Movalpolos were looking for Alzadaal.

(Temenos era i think dates back to the Kuluu!)

But at least one Orc in Temenos dates back to the Crystal War, as cited both by the Tribune and Wings of the Goddess quests.

Theres no Mamool Ja teaching Quadavs how to BLU, no Trolls teaching them Orcs... and so forth.

And yet the Mamool Ja hang out with Sahagin and the Trolls with Goblins.

These jobs don't exist in this content simply because lore wise the Beastmen did not know of these jobs, as the Near Eastern culture is distinct and almost entirely cut off from our mainland,

The reason the Allied Forces were surprised by Aht Urhgan's lack of military support was specifically because of the strong ties the empire had with the marquisette (which you'll note is the source of many "Near Eastern" equipment and ingredients). Their unwillingness to send troops did not preclude Aht Urhgan from selling arms to (at least) Windurst (as per WotG quests). A renown Bastokan general "retired" to Aht Urhgan, and a renown Aht Urhgan alchemist runs the guild in Bastok Mines (and he's been there since before Rise of the Zilart!).

Theres a fine difference between digging through 13 years of lore on a Wiki page and a screen with no exact info on where or what I'm going to find, and Completing a highly rewarding and well made Mission storyling in an MMO.

If it's so engaging, why can't you remember it? If it's so rewarding, why can't you be bothered to experience it again for the sake of your memory? Your actions (and complete lack thereof) speak louder than your words.

Though, if you think FFXI is as boring as digging through wiki documents

I'm not the one complaining. I'm also not the one demanding new players to go through content you personally can't remember and can't be bothered to remind yourself of.

Olor

03-07-2014, 02:18 AM

Theres a fine difference between digging through 13 years of lore on a Wiki page and a screen with no exact info on where or what I'm going to find, and Completing a highly rewarding and well made Mission storyling in an MMO. Though, if you think FFXI is as boring as digging through wiki documents with no clear cut end in site I wonder why you still play. :D! But srsly, you made the comparison first I'm just saying.

Except that the only way to make it through said "rewarding storyline" is to be buried in wiki documents. Or are you suggesting I should somehow make it through three paths by reading the mission log, which tells me exactly nothing? Honestly, if the story itself carried me from place to place in a sensible way without necessitating keeping a second screen open to the wiki, COP might not be so tedious.

Lithera

03-07-2014, 04:24 AM

Olor

03-07-2014, 08:18 AM

Thus the argument about having a visible way or not to about where quests or missions were started and then continue if not a change to the in game quest and mission help info. On the QoL thread which so far SE said sorry but we can't.

Yeah, I was disappointed in this. At the very least they could update mission log text - or maybe put COP/other missions in Records of Eminence? Like if it unlocked one at a time, "talk to cid in the metalworks" to give you instructions where to go? Maybe just give each one 1 exp and 1 spark...

Cause personally I don't think flipping back and forth from the game to the wiki to be very fun times.

Crevox

08-25-2014, 07:56 AM

I would like to bump this thread, as it is still a great suggestion that would greatly benefit the game and newbie players. More than ever, newbie players can use any amount of assistance in order to get them up to speed with everyone else.

Being someone who completed CoP after finding out about this requirement (and being distraught like the OP), I would like to further suggest this change in order to keep more people playing FFXI and improve the game going forward.

This topic, suggestion, and the thoughts within, are as relevant as ever, even after the long time that this thread has been dormant. Many people still feel very strongly about this, and I'm hoping that SE can take a second look and reconsider their position on it.

mattkoko

08-25-2014, 08:43 AM

Crevox

08-25-2014, 09:06 AM

Seems kind of redundant don't you think?

This thread is suggesting the potential change. The other topic is about the lack of information that the requirement exists. One is a suggestion to the developer, while the other is a discussion of lacking community resources on the topic.

Quite different topics of discussion.

Zarchery

08-25-2014, 09:43 AM

I'd also like to see them remove the Delve NM requirements for buying plasm items from Forri-Porri. I don't like Delve, but I'd really like to have those weapons anyway.

Modify the game to attract new players who hate actually playing it. Sounds like a plan

Zarchery

08-25-2014, 09:57 AM

I'll agree with this point once someone can give me a reason that we should require key items from Delve NMs before Forri-Porri will sell equipment but we shouldn't require COP for reforging AF and relic.

The argument is hinged upon basically 1 thing: "We shouldn't have to do this content to get this thing I want because I don't want to do it."

mattkoko

08-25-2014, 10:26 AM

This thread is suggesting the potential change. The other topic is about the lack of information that the requirement exists. One is a suggestion to the developer, while the other is a discussion of lacking community resources on the topic.

Quite different topics of discussion.

Although I do agree that one thread was about the lack of information, YOU made the same point in both threads, in which case I will revise my point and say, you are being redundant. And now we have to listen to you whine in both threads. Although Zachery and I don't see eye to eye on everything, I agree with his point on this one. Players like you want to play the game, but when you think about it, you really don't. You basically want to bypass the content to reap the rewards that come from that content. So let me ask you this. If you apply this to other games, even the ones that are not online, basically you want the ultimate weapons and armor but you don't feel like playing any of the story to get to it. I take it this is where you insert gameshark and get all the weapons and armor you want from the beginning of the game?

Crevox

08-25-2014, 10:39 AM

in both threads.

I responded to posts made to me and I'm done with that thread. I bumped this one, and you're now you're discussing this with me here, so it seems fine.

Players like you want to play the game, but when you think about it, you really don't. You basically want to bypass the content to reap the rewards that come from that content. So let me ask you this. If you apply this to other games, even the ones that are not online, basically you want the ultimate weapons and armor but you don't feel like playing any of the story to get to it. I take it this is where you insert gameshark and get all the weapons and armor you want from the beginning of the game?

I want to do engaging, tough battle content to earn weapons and armor. I have fought and earned the various pieces of equipment I have from delve and high tier battlefields, and all of that was very fun battle content where I had to work as a party to overcome encounters. There was strategy, execution, planning; I got to play with other people; and I got to enjoy the game's battle system. Even if the gear I desire has a low drop rate, I don't mind doing it over and over again, because it's fun.

None of this is done, at all, in something like CoP, where you run around for hours on end doing fetch quests. There is no difficulty involved in this, no RPG-like battle elements; minimal thought required. I would say half the time you're not even looking at the game, you're reading guides on where to go (are you even playing the game at this point?). This is not fun to me. How can anyone even consider completing this an accomplishment, or consider the reward worthwhile for the task? It is menial and tedious.

This, combined with the fact that it takes very long (hours, days), and it is so core and almost essential to the majority of the jobs in the game, makes this requirement a poor choice, especially since basically every newbie player to the game has to complete this in order to get into end game. It's not even like you're getting the armor for free either, you still need to gather the armor itself and then the materials to upgrade it (which, hey, actually requires you fight things).

I still cannot grasp the complaint that removing the requirement would make it "too easy." Was there even any difficulty to begin with? It is a gigantic time dump and nothing more; there is zero difficulty involved.

mattkoko

08-25-2014, 11:01 AM

I responded to posts made to me and I'm done with that thread. I bumped this one, and you're now you're discussing this with me here, so it seems fine.

I want to do engaging, tough battle content to earn weapons and armor. I have fought and earned the various pieces of equipment I have from delve and high tier battlefields, and all of that was very fun battle content where I had to work as a party to overcome encounters. There was strategy, execution, planning; I got to play with other people; and I got to enjoy the game's battle system. Even if the gear I desire has a low drop rate, I don't mind doing it over and over again, because it's fun.

None of this is done, at all, in something like CoP, where you run around for hours on end doing fetch quests. There is no difficulty involved in this, no RPG-like battle elements; minimal thought required. I would say half the time you're not even looking at the game, you're reading guides on where to go (are you even playing the game at this point?). This is not fun to me. How can anyone even consider completing this an accomplishment, or consider the reward worthwhile for the task? It is menial and tedious.

This, combined with the fact that it takes very long (hours, days), and it is so core and almost essential to the majority of the jobs in the game, makes this requirement a poor choice, especially since basically every newbie player to the game has to complete this in order to get into end game.

Alright sure, let's just start everyone at level 99 with all jobs while we are at it. See the thing is, they need to spend their time and resources on what you are asking. It is already made soloable. Further, there are HP warps to save even more legwork. So basically you want them to spend their time and resources so you don't have to. And by the end of it all, after countless posts and arguing over days in this forum, you could be done with CoP by now. Instead you would rather come here and whine about it. Every game you play, even the ones you love that could even be your favorite probable has certain pieces of story and content that you would rather not do. But you do it anyway to get the reward in the end. Or maybe you don't do it. But either way, the content is there and the reward is there. If you don't want to do it. If you don't think the reward is worth doing it, then that is your problem, not the developers.

Zarchery

08-25-2014, 11:11 AM

I want to do engaging, tough battle content to earn weapons and armor. I have fought and earned the various pieces of equipment I have from delve and high tier battlefields, and all of that was very fun battle content where I had to work as a party to overcome encounters. There was strategy, execution, planning; I got to play with other people; and I got to enjoy the game's battle system. Even if the gear I desire has a low drop rate, I don't mind doing it over and over again, because it's fun.

It's all about what you want and you're so arrogant you believe that is justification. I'm against this because you haven't given a reason to be for it.

I want a Chaac Belt (Treasure Hunter +1). But I don't want to fight Cailimh (Marjami Delve boss). Personally, I just shrug and accept that I don't get to have Chaac Belt. If I had your sense of entitlement, I'd make big long screeds about how unfair it is that I have to fight Cailimh. But I'm more mature than you.

Balloon

08-25-2014, 11:15 AM

I mean for the most part I agree that it's not that big of a requirement, but I certainly think it could be tied to something a little more relevant.

As it stands some of the best gear for ilvl 119 is tied to the completion of early level 75 content.

Having it maybe tied to completing an easy/normal high level battlefield makes a little bit of sense, just have the ilvl weapon guy deal with it.

But no 117 or higher player is gonna have much of an issue with CoP, some might have issue soloing VE fights.

You kind of have to do CoP anyway for Rajas, and it could be argued that it at least incentivises people to do CoP, which did have a decent story despite its sometimes fillery length.

For me though, I do find it odd that some of the best gear is gated behind some of the oldest content, especially when the ties between the two are trivial.

Crevox

08-25-2014, 11:19 AM

Alright sure, let's just start everyone at level 99 with all jobs while we are at it. See the thing is, they need to spend their time and resources on what you are asking. It is already made soloable. Further, there are HP warps to save even more legwork. So basically you want them to spend their time and resources so you don't have to. And by the end of it all, after countless posts and arguing over days in this forum, you could be done with CoP by now. Instead you would rather come here and whine about it. Every game you play, even the ones you love that could even be your favorite probable has certain pieces of story and content that you would rather not do. But you do it anyway to get the reward in the end. Or maybe you don't do it. But either way, the content is there and the reward is there. If you don't want to do it. If you don't think the reward is worth doing it, then that is your problem, not the developers.

No, let's not give everyone level 99 jobs. Why does this always turn into a giant exaggeration?

And no, it's not just about me. I'm in game, in multiple newbie LS, all day long, and there are many people that have this problem. People quit the game over this. The suggestion is to change it so the requirement is not needed, because it would greatly benefit the game if this specific requirement wasn't there, and increase player attachment rate.

Why are you and everyone else so against change, even if it's positive, or turn it into some over exaggeration? Also, yes, this is all, obviously, an opinion; my opinion, also shared by others. You have your opinion, and I have mine, but why must you and other people continue to call my opinion "dumb" while I am trying to respect and understand yours? Most of the time there isn't even any explanation from people on why it shouldn't be changed, just "do it because that's how it is" or resorting to insults.

It's not even a matter of selfishness, because I already did it. I just think, along with many other people, that it would be a positive change for the game. Even if the requirement was changed to something else that would be fine too, if it means you'll stop telling me I want everything handed to me for free. Sticking the Oboro requirement on it seems like a good idea, because it helps to encourage new players to get started on high level content.

Zarchery

08-25-2014, 11:39 AM

For me though, I do find it odd that some of the best gear is gated behind some of the oldest content, especially when the ties between the two are trivial.

Well level 75 was the cap for many years. You either leave stuff gated behind that old content or you throw the old content away for no reason.

Relic weapons are gated behind Dynamis which is in turn gated behind nation rank missions (need rank 6).
Mythic weapons are gated behind Assault (need to do all 50 and get Captain rank) and if I'm not mistaken also require completion of Aht Urghan missions plus Einherjar, Salvage, and Nyzul Isle.
A lot of the coveted equipment comes from the high tier mission battlefields which would require you to clear the initial mission fight.

And really, being in a situation where Monisette won't do business with you makes about as much sense as being in a position where Oboro (RME weapon reforge) and Forri-Porri (plasm exchange) won't deal with you.

Zarchery

08-25-2014, 11:50 AM

No, let's not give everyone level 99 jobs. Why does this always turn into a giant exaggeration?

Because, like completing CoP missions, levelling to 99 is a trivially easy task that nonetheless some people don't want to do.

And no, it's not just about me. I'm in game, in multiple newbie LS, all day long, and there are many people that have this problem. People quit the game over this. The suggestion is to change it so the requirement is not needed, because it would greatly benefit the game if this specific requirement wasn't there, and increase player attachment rate.

People quit the game over a lot of things. People who don't have the patience to do this trivially easy requirement will find some other reason to quit. Like they couldn't get their Delve equipment. Or they couldn't get their Rem's chapters. Or they just plain found it boring. That doesn't justify every change proposed.

Why are you and everyone else so against change, even if it's positive, or turn it into some over exaggeration? Also, yes, this is all, obviously, an opinion; my opinion, also shared by others. You have your opinion, and I have mine, but why must you and other people continue to call my opinion "dumb" while I am trying to respect and understand yours? Most of the time there isn't even any explanation from people on why it shouldn't be changed, just "do it because that's how it is" or resorting to insults.

Because we've explained it multiple times. You haven't made any case for why this is a good change. Just "I don't like the content, and I don't think I should have to do it." The same thing can be said about Delve, or XP, or Skirmish, or literally any other piece of content.. The insults are because despite this being explained over and over and over and over and over and over and over again you keep ignoring it and making the same silly assertions.

Please explain to me why I should have to fight Cailimh for the Treasure Hunter +1 belt I want but you shouldn't have to progress through Chains of Promathia missions to get something like Convoker's Pigaches +1.

It's not even a matter of selfishness, because I already did it. I just think, along with many other people, that it would be a positive change for the game. Even if the requirement was changed to something else that would be fine too, if it means you'll stop telling me I want everything handed to me for free. Sticking the Oboro requirement on it seems like a good idea, because it helps to encourage new players to get started on high level content.

It's fine and dandy that you already did it, but it's a matter of selfishness because it's solely about content that you don't want to be required. Not content you can't do. Content you just don't like.

Balloon

08-25-2014, 11:59 AM

At least the mission to high level one makes sense though. As does relic, and mythic. There are story reasons as to why that is the way it is.

I just don't think someone would appreciate behind to drag themselves through CoP for gear. The story and even the ring should be it's own reward.

I don't think, at least for me, it's an issue of being lazy or wanting things to be easier. I just really hate the paradigm of having the best gear locked behind old content. For me, that includes relics and mythics.

I think alternate routes should be included, some that may even gate the stuff behind bigger time walls as long as its something that is relevant, because finding help with older stuff becomes a bit harder as the reasons do it dwindle.

I just think it's off putting to new players. I can see WHY they'd do it like that, I can see not wanting old content to be lost forever... But after a certain point you have to let go, or update it to make it relevant (aka dyn).

As for the TH belt example.. I think that's more acceptable because its level appropriate gear locked behind level appropriate content.

mattkoko

08-25-2014, 12:15 PM

No, let's not give everyone level 99 jobs. Why does this always turn into a giant exaggeration?

And no, it's not just about me. I'm in game, in multiple newbie LS, all day long, and there are many people that have this problem. People quit the game over this. The suggestion is to change it so the requirement is not needed, because it would greatly benefit the game if this specific requirement wasn't there, and increase player attachment rate.

Why are you and everyone else so against change, even if it's positive, or turn it into some over exaggeration? Also, yes, this is all, obviously, an opinion; my opinion, also shared by others. You have your opinion, and I have mine, but why must you and other people continue to call my opinion "dumb" while I am trying to respect and understand yours? Most of the time there isn't even any explanation from people on why it shouldn't be changed, just "do it because that's how it is" or resorting to insults.

It's not even a matter of selfishness, because I already did it. I just think, along with many other people, that it would be a positive change for the game. Even if the requirement was changed to something else that would be fine too, if it means you'll stop telling me I want everything handed to me for free. Sticking the Oboro requirement on it seems like a good idea, because it helps to encourage new players to get started on high level content.

I don't mean to sound cold but if they are quitting the game because they don't want to do content or put in any effort to get the reward then good riddance. The game is flooded with players that either want everything handed to them, or they want someone to hold their hand through everything. This content is soloable with hp warps all over the place for crying out loud. Did I make quite a big exaggeration? Yes I did. But this is a game that went from taking months just to level 1 job to 75, to a game where you can stand around for a day and go 30-99. They already took the caps off all the fights for you. And you mentioned it is not about selfishness, yet you made it about you by saying YOU already did it. Well new players did not do it. CoP may be an old expansion but it is still an expansion that was made for the players and is still a part of this game we know as ffxi. A huge part about every final fantasy game, including XI, has been about story line. And if new players think the reward is worth it enough in the end, then they will play through the required story line to get to the reward linked to it.

Malithar

08-25-2014, 12:22 PM

I think alternate routes should be included, some that may even gate the stuff behind bigger time walls as long as its something that is relevant, because finding help with older stuff becomes a bit harder as the reasons do it dwindle.

I just think it's off putting to new players. I can see WHY they'd do it like that, I can see not wanting old content to be lost forever... But after a certain point you have to let go, or update it to make it relevant (aka dyn)

They've taken quite a few steps to make these all easily soloable, never mind the shear power difference a 99 with 117 gear and trusts would have compared to the content. They've changed most (all?) JP midnight and conquest tally waits to game day waits. Other than knowing what to do (hi2u wiki), there's not all that much that's difficult about any of it anymore. Time consuming, sure. But it's part of a major storyline in FFXI.

Should a new/returning player not be expected to experience that? Specially when you not only get the mission reward, access to other BCs and fights (most of which are outdated or haven't been remade yet, IE ENMs), and a decent storyline, but also the ability to start upgrading yourself to 119 AF/relic/JSE weapons.

I view it all as incentives to do the content, rather than some terrible time consuming gate that forces people to quit out of sheer laziness.

Balloon

08-25-2014, 12:28 PM

They've taken quite a few steps to make these all easily soloable, never mind the shear power difference a 99 with 117 gear and trusts would have compared to the content. They've changed most (all?) JP midnight and conquest tally waits to game day waits. Other than knowing what to do (hi2u wiki), there's not all that much that's difficult about any of it anymore. Time consuming, sure. But it's part of a major storyline in FFXI.

Should a new/returning player not be expected to experience that? Specially when you not only get the mission reward, access to other BCs and fights (most of which are outdated or haven't been remade yet, IE ENMs), and a decent storyline, but also the ability to start upgrading yourself to 119 AF/relic/JSE weapons.

I view it all as incentives to do the content, rather than some terrible time consuming gate that forces people to quit out of sheer laziness.

Yeah. I agree with that, I mentioned in a previous.post that at 117 it's trivial, I was talking more in general about the paradigm. There's not a lot of examples of it besides perhaps ichor at the minute though. Some assaults where you need 2+ people?

People are free to disagree with me, though. I already am a bit conflicted about whether incentivizng old stories like that is right or wrong. I just feel like incentives could exist without tying it to something irrelevant.

I mean I know if my goal was to get some 119 armour then I'd begrudgingly spam the missions. I don't know if I'd appreciate then as much.

Then again... How few people did wotg before moonshade. I guess that has always existed.

At least there was some challenge there before? It's ease now does make it feel like a bit like a slog rather than a reward. At least requiring some hlvl battles is more challenging.

But people still need to do with for that earring because it's so good and CoP for the rings.

Ambivalent. That's what I am. I certainly think there should be some requirement. I just think the CoP one is a little weird.

All those weird errors are because I suck at phone typing

SNK

08-25-2014, 12:42 PM

I just read this whole thread & I want back my $14.95 for the amount of QQing in here from people complaining that CoP takes too long to finish. It's even more embaressing that a BST of all things is complaining about this seeing as BST originally was one of the most time consuming jobs in this game to get to 75. :|

Arbalest

08-25-2014, 01:18 PM

No, it can't. I've spent multiple days of playtime working on it. Look, I get that other people like doing missions. That's fine. I don't. I accept having to miss out on the specific rewards from completing those missions. I am not expecting to be given Alexander if I don't do ToAU. I'm not asking for a Raja's ring if I don't do COP. I am asking to be allow to have THE CHOICE to do CURRENT CONTENT that is COMPLETELY UNRELATED.

Honestly whether or not you personally enjoyed the missions is of no interest to me - it's my playtime.

I'm even willing to accept the restriction on AF since it was only upgradeable using Limbus before - but WHY would I be allowed to upgrade my relic to +2 without COP and then mysteriously be locked out of the final step. Look, upgrading my relic (which I got myself and enjoyed getting and had fun unlocking dynamis zones with my friends to get) was what got me to log in and renew my sub.

All you folks making fun of the fact that I'd like to do some relevant content rather being asked to go solo cut scenes (and I have worked on it, and I HATE HATE HATE IT - currently on 3 paths and it is agonizingly boring and confusing because the mission log is USELESS) - do you want me to quit? Cause that's what's going to happen. Maybe you personally don't care, but if the devs keep this up, no one will be left playing except people who did all of this stuff 8 years ago when it was CURRENT - WITH THEIR FRIENDS - HAVING FUN. And now you make fun of people like me that just want to ENJOY the game and play current stuff.

I don't understand why people would be against something that doesn't affect them. If you like doing missions, BRAVO - go do the missions.

My partner in crime and I did his CoP from start to finish in 3 days. Bam.

Malithar

08-25-2014, 03:18 PM

All you folks making fun of the fact that I'd like to do some relevant content rather being asked to go solo cut scenes

That line kinda spells the whole thread out IMO. Since you need this completed, does it not make it relevant content? I guess calling it non-current content is sorta accurate, but really, if it's such a major issue, surely there are others in the same position that you could get with, figure it out together, or just pop open the wiki instead of going by the mission logs (really?).

This reeks of the same people who complained about Ergons needing Coalition ranks, something they deemed irrelevant (even though, at least to me, it was beyond clear it would be required..) and felt should be changed. Admittedly, reforged requiring CoP near completion may not of been clear to many, including myself. But prior to reforged, I deemed it's completion worthwhile for Limbus, Sea, Rajas, Apoc Nigh, and the story. So with yet another reason to do it...why not, ya know, do it? Just boggles me.

Pixela

08-25-2014, 05:54 PM

SNK

08-25-2014, 08:57 PM

Arbalest

08-26-2014, 12:03 AM

Rubicant82

08-26-2014, 12:40 AM

CoP is extremely simple now.
I had a new character which I wanted the ring on (as Arbalest said above Raja's is a STAPLE ring for DDs) so I set out to do CoP and it took a total of about 12 hours of play time to do, maybe a little longer. But! with Home Point warping, Voidwatch Warping, and all the other awesome little things we have now to move around the world quickly it literally cuts the time to a fraction. Nothing is capped anymore so and level 99 with sparks gear can destroy every battle field. Plus CoP is a PIVITOL story point for this game. If you do not want to do the missions and learn about the world you are most likely in the wrong game. This is not just some hack and slash RPG, it is a Final Fantasy game which means Killer Stories!
okay rant over .-.

Zarchery

08-26-2014, 06:49 AM

CoP isn't a requirement - it's an option, just as reforging AF isn't a requirement. It's an option as well.

This is what I have been saying on and on. Someone who really doesn't want to do COP doesn't have to. They can just use Skirmish or Delve or Sparks or Bayld gear.

Crevox has also separately complained about having to progress through Zilart missions to do the Ark Angel fights, and having to progress through Wings of the Goddess to obtain Cait Sith. It's cherry picking, deciding that some content shouldn't be required for the simple reason of "I don't want to do it". I hate Delve. I have yet to see any proponent of this change explain to me why, for example, I should have to beat Tojil to get Oatixurs.

Doombringer

08-26-2014, 06:55 AM

ITT: CoP is hard.

wait til these people go to get their moonshade earrings <.<

i guess i don't actually CARE, it just seems like a really silly thing to complain about. though i guess one could always take the "waste of dev time" stance that pretty much covers anything they don't personally want

Janethetaru

08-27-2014, 09:21 AM

You can skip it if you use more papers, for the 109 version.

no, the npc that does the reforging is involved in COP and you must have done the questline to access her services.

Janethetaru

08-27-2014, 09:23 AM

Remove cop requirements? No. Play the game. You have to do COP because they used a COP NPC for the armor reforging. Deal with it. Doing the missions is part of the game. In fact, it's the point of the game in the eyes of the developers, they worked very hard on that story line and for you to not play it simply because it's old is insulting. I played from 2003-2007, until my linkshell leader (who had my info because i was guild banker) got my galka banned for RMT while I was deployed. They didn't have the notarized form option then and I had changed banks twice and couldn't provide enough info to restore him, by the time they had the notarized form, he had been deleted. I came back just before abyssea launched. The first thing i did after LB's was rank 6 for dyna, zilart missions for sky, then rank 10, then COP. I'm currently doing TOAU missions.
Take a deep breath, and remember it's not all about the rat race. Slow down and enjoy the game. COP is a snap now. It was soloable at 75 when they removed the level caps a long time ago, now at lvl 99 with ilvl gear and trust npcs? give me a break. It's just walking around. Go enjoy the wonderful storylines and beautiful scenery.

Zarchery

08-27-2014, 09:30 AM

Consensus seems to be against this idea.

Ramzi

08-27-2014, 10:15 AM

Why do people care about arguing against this?

If you liked and did CoP this has no impact on you, if you didn't like it and never did it then this change could let them do new content on main or mules without the hassle of doing boring cut-scenes with no battle content. Someone new that wants to experience this stuff doesn't need to be made to do it, it's a silly req that exists for no reason.

Some of you people argue just to argue.

Why are you still visiting the forums to argue with people when you quit the game? You have a mothercrystal sized chip on your shoulder for some reason, and you just wont let it go, and stop whining here. I'm sure the OP can fight his/her own battles.

Also, on topic: funny story- I just recently completed CoP for the 2nd time, this time on my mule. Part of me wanted to do the story again, and the other part wanted to get my mule the Rajas because if I wanted to use him for anything, i would need it.

I thoroughly enjoyed doing CoP again. It wasn't as fun as the first time with the level caps and the static group, but still very enjoyable. OP, I feel for you because you stopped doing it when you got frustrated, and likely spammed enter key through all the dialogue, and havent taken the time to enjoy the story. Now you are half way through and it's a pain to go back and watch all the cutscenes. But honestly 5-3 is the last really long mission. 8-2 and 8-3 are not all that fun but at least you are nearing the end of the tunnel at that point. Just do it rather than asking on here for it to be done for you, right? It would take a couple of days max to finish it off.