Shield Skill

[Demonjustin]

So, RDM was given Beatific Shield, will assuredly be on Beatific Shield +1, has Shield Mastery II as a trait, and retained Shield Skill on our Reforged Artifact Feet Armor. Yet, through all of this, we have retained a terrible F rating in shield, putting it so low that even on level 99 monsters with Beatific Shield our block rate is flat out horrible. Can we please, please have our Shield Skill raised to at very least a C+, if not a B to match our Sword and Dagger skills?

I fear without a higher skill our ability to use a shield is so poor that we literally may as well not even bother to use one at this point, we are dependent on Dual Wield, yet lack the trait, just as we are seemingly meant to use shields and yet have no real skill to use it. At this point, most PLDs have Aegis and Ochain, by giving us this skill increase we are by no means going to become more useful than a PLD, only more capable in lower end content, where right now we can hardly make use of it as we are more than 150 skill behind PLD, and more than 100 behind WAR!

Please improve this skill, raise it to a C+ or B rating so we can at least make use of these great shields on at least basic content!

[Demonjustin]

Come on SE, please let us use shields more effectively, how are we a shield master when we have the lowest possible rank!? Even a WHM blocks better than us, yet you give us Shield Mastery, could anything be more contradictory!?

[dasva]

Interestingly enough whm does get shield def bonus.

I think you underestimate how much block rate would make a difference and how much rdms already have better defensiveness built in than pld. Plus they seem to already be planning on outdating ochain and nq beatific actually blocks better than aegis. Not much testing I've seen on hq but based on the increase in stats it should be around as good as killedar especially on easier on content. Like Should be a good 65% block rate or higher for a pld on 111 mobs

[Martel]

Interestingly enough whm does get shield def bonus.

I think you underestimate how much block rate would make a difference and how much rdms already have better defensiveness built in than pld. Plus they seem to already be planning on outdating ochain and nq beatific actually blocks better than aegis. Not much testing I've seen on hq but based on the increase in stats it should be around as good as killedar especially on easier on content. Like Should be a good 65% block rate or higher for a pld on 111 mobsIf you'll pardon the derail into PLD land...

Nah. Beatific +1 isn't gonna match, much less beat Killedar.

So, level 111 mobs.
Killedar
Block% 47.64
DMG%- -86
Total PDT -40.9

Now, I don't have test data for Beatific +1. But I do have data for the NQ. We can go from there, and work in the increased def and skill. so, based on this I get:

Beatific+1
Block% 65
DMG%- -53
Total PDT -34.4

Now, from here, for Beatific+1 to match Killedar it would need 77% block rate. 12% over it's currently projected rate. That'd take about 56 extra skill.

Back to RDM stuffs.

I think, over the years, SE has made clear what they think of RDM tanking. By nerfing the ever-loving hell outta it.

Now, maybe you don't want to tank. Perhaps you just want greater durability for solo activities, etc. But making RDM more durable opens back up the possibility of RDM tanking.

RDM has to rely on shadows to survive anything high level. Things like VD AAs would just oneshot you, right through SS/PDT/Phalanx(barring scherzo.) And since SE nerfed all of RDMs CE generating debuffs they haven't got much left to pull hate with. Effective tanking becomes very difficult(Then again, effective tanking is pretty difficult for PLD too, unless all the DD are rangers. <,<; )

But... If RDM's physical durability was buffed via a notable increase in shield skill, then surviving without shadows might become possible. This leaves the subjob open letting RDM sub something with decent enmity actions. /DRK, /BLU, /RUN, etc. And perhaps makes RDM tanking a possibility again.

So yeah, I don't think SE is gonna buff RDM's shield skill. Although, even if they did, I dunno that RDM tanking would catch on again. But I just don't see them giving RDM the chance.

Or maybe I'm over thinking this, and SE's not worried about RDM tanks. But even in that case, I doubt they'd bother with this adjustment.

[Protey]

It would be interesting if RDM tanking did make a comeback and I think SE might be open to the idea. The reason being is that they made RUN, which is supposed to be a tank. So they are open to a job class besides PLD being the only viable tank option.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

how are we a shield master when we have the lowest possible rank!?

At least you're not as confused and inconsistent about shields as DRK.

[dasva]

If you'll pardon the derail into PLD land...

Nah. Beatific +1 isn't gonna match, much less beat Killedar.

So, level 111 mobs.
Killedar
Block% 47.64
DMG%- -86
Total PDT -40.9

Now, I don't have test data for Beatific +1. But I do have data for the NQ. We can go from there, and work in the increased def and skill. so, based on this I get:

Beatific+1
Block% 65
DMG%- -53
Total PDT -34.4

Now, from here, for Beatific+1 to match Killedar it would need 77% block rate. 12% over it's currently projected rate. That'd take about 56 extra skill.
Back to RDM stuffs.

I think, over the years, SE has made clear what they think of RDM tanking. By nerfing the ever-loving hell outta it.

Now, maybe you don't want to tank. Perhaps you just want greater durability for solo activities, etc. But making RDM more durable opens back up the possibility of RDM tanking.

RDM has to rely on shadows to survive anything high level. Things like VD AAs would just oneshot you, right through SS/PDT/Phalanx(barring scherzo.) And since SE nerfed all of RDMs CE generating debuffs they haven't got much left to pull hate with. Effective tanking becomes very difficult(Then again, effective tanking is pretty difficult for PLD too, unless all the DD are rangers. <,<; )

But... If RDM's physical durability was buffed via a notable increase in shield skill, then surviving without shadows might become possible. This leaves the subjob open letting RDM sub something with decent enmity actions. /DRK, /BLU, /RUN, etc. And perhaps makes RDM tanking a possibility again.

So yeah, I don't think SE is gonna buff RDM's shield skill. Although, even if they did, I dunno that RDM tanking would catch on again. But I just don't see them giving RDM the chance.

Or maybe I'm over thinking this, and SE's not worried about RDM tanks. But even in that case, I doubt they'd bother with this adjustment.


Hey now I didn't say the shield would be better just that it would be around as good especially on lower content. Though I probably should have added in the hands of an rdm with higher shield skills. It could be argued that the higher block rate offsets the slightly higher average dmg reduction of a killedar at least on rdm given how traditionally it tanks more with trying to get it's buffs back up while getting attacked. I mean -104% interrupt rate tanking was a thing at one point. Heck people actually used sipar for holding mobs at one point before they nerfed it.

I actually kinda do want to tank or go back to solo activities I'm just sure there will be such an outcry again. Not that I care about it but SE probably will to nerf it.

As far as the fear... they definitely were afraid at one point hard to say if they still are. All the emnity nerfs which killed rdm and /rdm tanking for example. But they do change their minds I mean to go back to sipar they were once afraid of really high block rates even if the dmg blocked was hardly anything but then they made ochain <.<

[Demonjustin]

The thing is with the existence of Ochain and Aegis, their commonality, Killedar, the Shield Skill they would still have over us, their much higher DEF, much easier access to PDT, and buffs such as Sentinel, Rampart, Palisade, and Reprisal, PLD would still smash RDM in the end I'm sure.

[dasva]

The thing is with the existence of Ochain and Aegis, their commonality, Killedar, the Shield Skill they would still have over us, their much higher DEF, much easier access to PDT, and buffs such as Sentinel, Rampart, Palisade, and Reprisal, PLD would still smash RDM in the end I'm sure.

That's kinda what I meant by why I don't think they will raise it or at least not much. As is right now yes given good shields survivibility much higher. If they raised up skill to be simliar amounts to the point of acheiving high block rates idk... I mean rdm has always had the issues you listed but at one point could survive comparatively well and now has easier access to def and pdt... and like raising the skill from what it is now to A would be around 35% more block rate increase lol. So if they raised it would probalby start something more modest like maybe C.

Actually I might just try to remake my rdm def/pdt sets looks like it can cap fairly easily now while still using ilvl stuff... let's see Dring, dark ring and twlight will give me -20%, Umuthi Gloves 4, Umbra cape 6 (12 at night), then get augment skirmish gear and flume belt. Would give around 550ish def in gear capped pdt and almost capped haste. Probably something better out their but that looks pretty solid no?

[Demonjustin]

I never asked for A, tbh I think that's to much anyways. B is what we have in Sword, Dagger, and Enhancing Magic, the only skill RDM has above a B rank is Enfeebling. B is 404 which excluding gear is a nice 20 behind a PLD, roughly 5% block rate from what I understand. C+ would be fine too, it's not to much lower and is another common skill we have.

The set sounds right, I would have to go look and fix my sets for melee on FFXIAH to suggest any improvements if there are any to be made but it's fine to me. I won't like that in optimum gear a RDM can get capped PDT somewhat easily, but comparing it to PLD isn't even close. PLD Relic Head, Body, and Legs alone amount to 3 of the highest DEF pieces if not the highest DEF piece in slot in the game on top of a total of 20% PDT between them. I don't mean to say RDM has a hard time getting PDT, but more that PLD has an insanely easy time getting it by compare to any other job, and with the ability to stack on so much PDT and their JAs it really makes PLD hard to beat.

PLD at 75 was competing with RDM but it was a different game back then, at the time Aegis was rare, now every PLD and their mom has one, back then your block rate was your block rate, now days PLD has 2 abilities to raise that rate sky high and one of them can be full timed with proper buffs/gear. I don't mean RDM would be too weak to make use of this, but to out do a PLD would be near impossible at this point unless you're talking about a maxed out RDM vs a half assed PLD, in which case I think the argument against raising the skill to high is a bit unfair.

[Blah]

Erm a question, why isn't there an "S" rank? By now with all the gear and equipment shouldn't we be able to by now have an S rank? Or maybe am I missing something...>100=F, >200=D, >300=C, >400=B, >500=A, <500 should...be...S...right? I mean unless even with weapons and equipment nothing gets 500~600 but I could swear...

[Demonjustin]

Skill ranks are based off base skills before anything else not what you can get with gear or merits. Every job has a skill rank for skills ranging from F to A+, a job with an A+ skill caps that skill at 424. So as for their being an S rank, no.

[Blah]

Which leaves the question why are our skills only at 424? That is once they even started putting in 80+ monsters...I mean if there's a cap on stuff like shield, haste and the like then aren't they essentially saying there's a cap on defense, dexterity, agility, strength also? And if there is then, once you're 99 there just isn't any point to...ah maybe that isn't the right attitude. Sorry continue on.

[Demonjustin]

I really don't understand what you're getting at. Yes, there are limitation, but that's what gear is for, it pushes us past those bounds. No matter how high a RDM gets their Fast Cast won't surpass 30% normally, but once you add in gear that limit is broken and 80% is attainable. To say our DEF, Atk, STR, HP, anything like that is capped is false because we grow through gear as well as it breaks those bounds we normally don't. But what are you getting at I suppose is my question because once you're 99 you make it sound as though a dead end is reached.

[Blah]

Well I guess I misunderstood because that's exactly what I thought hehe

[Mirage]

No, Blah, there being a cap on haste does not in any way indicate how defense should work. The stats work completely different. Haste is a percentual reduction of weapon delay, which means if there was no cap, you could get 100% haste, which means infinite damage per second. Everything you engaged would die instantly, no matter how much hp it had, as long as you dealt 1 damage or more per hit. There is no stat on enemies that lowers your haste rating, like there is with your effective attack rating. Because of this, haste *must* have an absolute cap somewhere in order to not make the game unplayable.

Attack/defense however, is a ratio where your value is compared to the enemy's opposite value. Attack "caps" differently on every monster in the game. Attack might cap at 50 if you fight a level 1 monster, while it could cap at 5000 if you fight a level 130 monster. If a monster has 10000 defense, you could keep boosting your attack to over 15000 and still not be near the theoretical cap. The same holds true to your other base stats. Your STR rating is compared to the target's VIT rating to determine the total damage rating of your attacks, so this stat also does not have a static cap. Same goes for your AGI rating, which is compared to the enemy's DEX rating to determine how often you get critical hits on yourself, therefore, this stat's cap is entirely dependent on what you are fighting. As long as stronger enemies keep getting added, your base stats will never cap.

[Blah]

No, Blah, there being a cap on haste does not in any way indicate how defense should work. The stats work completely different. Haste is a percentual reduction of weapon delay, which means if there was no cap, you could get 100% haste, which means infinite damage per second. Everything you engaged would die instantly, no matter how much hp it had, as long as you dealt 1 damage or more per hit. There is no stat on enemies that lowers your haste rating, like there is with your effective attack rating. Because of this, haste *must* have an absolute cap somewhere in order to not make the game unplayable.

Attack/defense however, is a ratio where your value is compared to the enemy's opposite value. Attack "caps" differently on every monster in the game. Attack might cap at 50 if you fight a level 1 monster, while it could cap at 5000 if you fight a level 130 monster. If a monster has 10000 defense, you could keep boosting your attack to over 15000 and still not be near the theoretical cap. The same holds true to your other base stats. Your STR rating is compared to the target's VIT rating to determine the total damage rating of your attacks, so this stat also does not have a static cap. Same goes for your AGI rating, which is compared to the enemy's DEX rating to determine how often you get critical hits on yourself, therefore, this stat's cap is entirely dependent on what you are fighting. As long as stronger enemies keep getting added, your base stats will never cap.
Well that's what I was hoping to hear because it really didn't make sense-well wait NONE of our gripes would actually make sense if there was an actual cap to everything.

[Mirage]

Skills cap at 424 because that's the amount of accuracy and attack the developers want us to get from our jobs alone at level 99. It doesn't go past that because the developers didn't want to let us level past 99.

[dasva]

I never asked for A, tbh I think that's to much anyways. B is what we have in Sword, Dagger, and Enhancing Magic, the only skill RDM has above a B rank is Enfeebling. B is 404 which excluding gear is a nice 20 behind a PLD, roughly 5% block rate from what I understand. C+ would be fine too, it's not to much lower and is another common skill we have.

The set sounds right, I would have to go look and fix my sets for melee on FFXIAH to suggest any improvements if there are any to be made but it's fine to me. I won't like that in optimum gear a RDM can get capped PDT somewhat easily, but comparing it to PLD isn't even close. PLD Relic Head, Body, and Legs alone amount to 3 of the highest DEF pieces if not the highest DEF piece in slot in the game on top of a total of 20% PDT between them. I don't mean to say RDM has a hard time getting PDT, but more that PLD has an insanely easy time getting it by compare to any other job, and with the ability to stack on so much PDT and their JAs it really makes PLD hard to beat.

PLD at 75 was competing with RDM but it was a different game back then, at the time Aegis was rare, now every PLD and their mom has one, back then your block rate was your block rate, now days PLD has 2 abilities to raise that rate sky high and one of them can be full timed with proper buffs/gear. I don't mean RDM would be too weak to make use of this, but to out do a PLD would be near impossible at this point unless you're talking about a maxed out RDM vs a half assed PLD, in which case I think the argument against raising the skill to high is a bit unfair.

I know I was just using A as an example of what a difference it could make. Even C+ might be pushing how much of a change they would be willing to make at once. Still looking at over 50% block rate.

Actually forgot the shield itself gets 4% and arts legs get 5% so that would make it a little easier. As far as beating in terms of pure dmg reduction sure. But what I was saying is rdm can get close enough that it's greater self sufficiency can help.

True things are different... but for example you say every pld has an aegis but iirc most the newer ilvl shields actually are better than aegis for blocking. And true pld gets pretty much full time reprisal but rdm also can actually block now and has shiled mastery which it didn't at 75. I doubt rdm would be used as a main tank against higher level content stuff since the dmg reduction will never be as high (well unless you count debuffing) but with a good block rate it could easily be preferred for mid level stuff for when you want someone who can hold something completely self sufficiently and of course that means also decent for soloing which is why I think if it does get raise it will most likely be done cautiously a little at a time.

Back to the enfeebling thing it's kinda a shame that it's only A rank skill plays such a small part battle. Perhaps there is some way to increase rdms blocking and make enfeebling better... like a debuff that lowers whatever is in the block rate equation that lets mobs get thru unblocked more. And then building on them also orginal being buffers and no longer really used for that maybe a party buff (enough of these self only buffs) that can increase your defensive skills like evasion, parry and/or shield? Or just give rdm reprisal I mean it is enhancing after all... probably better idea so they can say they gave rdm something to help block for those that want that but by not making it a straight up skill or trait say the rdm has to work for it for the people who would definitely complain if rdm started soloing stuff much again

[Demonjustin]

Can we please get enough Shield Skill for our 119 shield to actually block 119 content? It's not as though I'd be close to tanking Ark Angels/MPNMs or new Delve, just asking for enough skill so we can block normal, ordinary level 119 monsters...