I think I'm finished; a new player's final thoughts

[Crevox]

Hello,

You might remember me from a topic I made a while ago (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/39218-New-player-getting-overwhelmed-what-do-I-do). I was a new player just starting out. It's been about a month now, and I just can't find myself logging in anymore.

I played for one month and grinded out like crazy, and accomplished a lot. However, recently, I've just been absolutely burnt out after doing all of it. I haven't done any party content, because all the stuff I had to do before I could just drained me. I haven't logged in for like 5 days. I'm not even done either, because things like Zilart isn't finished and Adoulin isn't started.

Things I accomplished:

-Level 99 SMN, didn't go to Abyssea until 75; Geomancer is like 93 or something
-Nation mission rank 6, Dynamis unlocked and farmed on multiple days
-Zilart beginning
-Aht Urhgan complete, Alexander/Odin
-Chains of Promathia complete
-Zoned into Wings of the Goddess at like level 50, got eaten by a random mob, didn't go back
-3 pieces of 109 AF armor, along with some relic armor
-Barely touched Abyssea "progression", never managed to kill a single zone boss
-Completed various other quests (max gobbiebag, all avatars including Fenrir, Evoker's Ring, the list goes on) along with farming/hunting for various SMN specific items
-Did not touch Adoulin; never got a good reason to go there, wanted to explore it with friends, but friends got burnt out and quit before we even got that far. Beyond that, from the looks of it, it looks like more time gated content (coalition?) and all the other things above seemed to provide better armor/items/worth than Adoulin.

Basically, all the stuff I've done has been a long journey in order to get on the same level as every player; so I can actually do the relevant content. Groups would not invite me for content because I did not have Alexander/summoning skill gear, or my gear was poor, or because I was a Summoner, or some other reason (mission requirement is a common one, there are some other things too). So, I had to gather gear (and finish Aht Urhgan to unlock Alexander). I had to finish Chains of Promathia to upgrade my AF to 109, and get the items from Limbus to make the process much faster (only need half the pages). I had to get nation rank 6 in order to unlock Dynamis to get the relic pieces I needed, as well as various other gears (relic gloves are a good example). Beyond that, the list above touches on it a bit. After all this time, I still have not joined a party for any BCNM/fight/anything; the only party content I've done is EXP (with like 1-2 people) or Dynamis with 1 other friend. Keep in mind, a LOT of doing all of this was time spent researching. I have to understand pretty much the majority of every aspect of this 11 year old game to find out where to get certain items, how the missions work, where I have to go, etc. Learning it all at once gets extremely complex (as a new player, look at the login rewards; you will have NO IDEA what 90% of the stuff is).

The reason why I didn't party up is the requirements. I spent nearly every day working on all those requirements to get ready. If I wasn't "working" on all that, I was exping with friends, or helping them out with the various tasks they needed help with (they have their own list of things they need to do). Also, keep in mind I couldn't do a lot of the stuff by myself, or didn't know how, but thankfully, I got help from a couple nice people.

After all this, the only things I read on the forums are old players saying they SHOULDN'T remove all these requirements or make it faster. They are saying that people should HAVE to take all this time doing the stories and such. Example from another thread:


I know you as someone wants full access to everything immediately out of the box.

Everyone keeps saying stuff like this. How is this the case?

If I was someone who was lazy, and just wanted everything handed to me/instantly... I would not have taken the effort to do all of that. Some of it was quite painful (Chains of Promathia) or really long for dumb reasons (Aht Urhgan, wait until Japanese midnight over and over and over) but they were goals I worked towards and completed. I think there are a lot of things that could be changed (remove the story requirements for content, remove Japanese midnight restrictions, speed up the chains of promathia missions somehow by skipping the dumb fetchquests/warping you or something) to improve the experience for new players, or even existing players.

I started playing alongside a few friends. One came back to the game, the other started fresh with me. I had another friend who wanted to play, but he quit during the trial. The friend who started fresh with me quit after playing for one month; he does not want to re-sub. He's a dedicated MMO player, and I was driving him/trying to push him to do various things, and telling him how important they are, but he didn't end up completing them.

-Level 99 THF, didn't go to Abyssea until 75
-Nation rank 2
-Got to Aht Urhgan to unlock Corsair, did not touch the missions
-Did not touch Chains of Promathia
-Did not get ANY AF, not even the low level
-Did not max Gobbiebag, no other important achievements to note
-Never touched Adoulin

... and he quit. Why? Cause a lot of this is boring. It's work. New players do not want to, and should not have to, go through all this. I was dedicated, and drove myself to do it to be a good SMN. If he isn't willing to do any of that, do you really expect any other new players to do it? It doesn't help that the entire thing is NOT friendly at all unless you alt tab and know where guides are to things. Most of the quests or missions don't even tell you where to go next. It's nice when you can actually think you know where to go, but that's honestly not that often, especially when they say things like "go get me this item" and offer NO EXPLANATION as to where to get it (limit break quests you are the best). There are some quests that they don't even tell you the item names, you seriously just have to guess or something (evoker's ring quest is ONE example). There is almost NO WAY I would be able to convince anyone else I know to play if they know they're gonna have to go through any of this.

I'm going to say that the old players need to stop looking at this game through nostalgia goggles. Times have changed. The game is not the same as it was before. You need to accept change, and move forward, or this game is going to suffer. There are a LOT of things that could be changed, and should be changed, for the game to move forward and prosper for years to come. However, it doesn't help when the majority of the community is straight up rude to new players, or thinks that it's right for them to "suffer the same way they did in the past." The response to practically anything I say is "YOU KNOW IT WAS SO MUCH HARDER IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD STOP COMPLAINING." I spent a lot of time arguing/discussing various topics (mythic weapons, mission requirements, etc) with people on this forum, and boy, it's been an uphill battle. So many people want all the requirements to stay, and if you don't like it, "too bad this isn't the game for you." I still think this quote is hilarious:


This is RPG, RPG= life simulator.
"playing MMORPG"= your 2nd home, if you can't accept this, then quit, this isn't the game for you.

I find it mind boggling that there are actually people, players, on this forum, that are telling newbies they should quit because they're finding it difficult. You guys are not doing much for your community, or your game, and yet you complain all the time that the servers are lacking people. This does not help. It also doesn't help that everyone in game is extremely quiet and does not want to talk to anyone unless you're already friends with them, and finding a group for anything is really difficult. Rarely do I see shouts for PUGs, and when I tried to join, yeah, you know what happened. I ended up making my own linkshell and shouted recruitment to try to get other new players to join so I could help them out and we could all talk. It worked for a while, I got about 6 other members; only 1 still plays (the others quit I assume, they haven't logged in for weeks).

Anyways, that's my story. At this point, I don't know what I want to do. If you read this far, thanks for caring. I've accomplished a lot, and I still don't know how much more there is to go, or if I'm ever even going to be able to do fun party fights with other people. A lot of the time I've spent playing I've looked forward to partying up with my friends, or even random people, to fight something difficult, a strong boss or something... and after one month, that never happened. Every time I get close to thinking I've accomplished something, something pops up in the way. A good example is the AF109; I gathered all the materials, then was told I have to finish Promathia first... that was very disheartening. Either way, I think I'm just burnt out, having to deal with all of this. I understand SE is trying to make things better, but the existing player base certainly isn't helping a lot of the time. I hope the game continues to improve into 2014, and I might resub at some point (I have the remainder of the month still going since I paid for 2 months), but for now, I think I just need a break at the very least.

Special thanks to the few people in game that helped me out. I am extremely grateful, and I will not forget you. There is 1 person in particular that showed such kindness, helped me out with so many things, and put up with my dumb questions; I cannot thank him enough.

--------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: My follow up response to the people posting.

The question becomes: why do people play an MMORPG? For what reason would someone pick up FFXI?

I can guarantee you that the majority of people do not go MMORPG hunting for a good story (and thus, do not enjoy sitting there doing missions all day). The story is a nice thing to have, but people do not find FFXI and go "wow, this game looks like it has a good story, I'm gonna try this MMORPG." People play for a variety of reasons, the biggest probably is to play with friends.

Personally, I play them for the gameplay. The combat. The leveling. The character growth. All of that, put in a multiplayer setting against enemies, and you can have a fun time. That's not to say I don't enjoy the story though; I do. However, I more so enjoy playing with my friends and other people as a player of a massively multiplayer online role playing game. This game actually does a great job of all of this, however, it's starting to make it much harder for you to feel it and get there, mostly due to all the requirements.

For someone like me, I do not enjoy doing nonstop fetch quests; especially when they hold absolutely no difficulty, and they take an extraordinary amount of time, often for no real reason. It is a large time dump. Chains of Promathia was a major offender here. The majority of the quests involve absolutely no combat, and when they do involve combat, it lasts for about 10 seconds and then it's back to running somewhere again. Yes, that's because it's easy now, but either way, it's still boring, especially alone. At some point, I would've loved to go and do it just to see the story, yeah, sure. The problem is that I don't have a choice. I have to do all of this stuff (Zilart, Promathia, Aht Urhgan) for various reasons just to be able to do the content everyone else is doing. And NONE of those 3 things involve me playing with friends or anyone else. Going through Promathia with a friend is not an interesting experience; it's just you both doing it at the same time, no different than you both playing the same single player game across the room from each other.

Why does a "rush to end game" exist? Because I want to play with people. I want to party up, and fight powerful foes, and reap rewards for it. I want to work together with my friends and other people to secure a victory. I want to work towards the same goals as them, and by working together, achieve it. If you look at the things I've done in the past month, that never happened. The closest thing you could say was an EXP party, which I did enjoy. Leveling up was fun. And, you know, with it being the thing you do in MMORPGs, that fits just fine. Being forced to go and do years of old content (which the majority of it is just travel and following some guide telling you where to go) is not fun. It's a chore. Not just a chore, a time-gated chore (you can't keep doing this, gotta wait for Japanese midnight). On an off-topic note, this is pretty much my biggest problem with my Mythic weapon being the best weapon in the game for SMN: the best weapon in the game is achieved solo by grinding for months through time gated content.

So, what did I do in order to reach that scenario? To able to party up with people and play with them? I did what I had to. I researched a lot on what I had to do. I did all the long, arduous requirements. I went around the world and finished all the sidequests I needed to do. I gathered gear from tons of old content, solo, in order to get my character in tip-top shape. I went to obscure locales for items that serve absolutely no relevance to my friends. They certainly have no reason to take that journey with me; they get nothing out of it, and I don't need help with it, it just takes time. And now, finally, after a month, I feel that I am in a state (not an optimal state, but good enough) that I am ready to present myself and fight alongside others. However, I still have not finished Zilart (so I cannot do AA) and I have to work on 20+ days of coalition in order to do Wildskeeper Reives. Beyond that, it's difficult to find a party for anything, let alone a party that will accept me for what I am. Even IF I could find a party, there's still no guarantee I even know what I should even be partying for, especially with all the acronyms used in game.

Then, of course, there's that aura of uncertainty. After this month of playing, what do you think my experience level (not actual character exp, I'm referring to the concept) with partying is? How often did I party up with others and practice playing my class (hint: it's very minimal)? Am I really ready to fight something that's going to be challenging? What do people expect of me? Am I going to screw it up? Am I geared enough? Do I know the mechanics of the encounter, is there something I need to know? Are they going to even accept me if I tell them it's my first time? There is a LOT to understand when it comes to doing these things; and people are not going to assume you don't know, or ask if you don't. They often times just won't tolerate you if you don't.

And that's the other thing: nothing is really explained in this game. I don't think people on this forum understand what it's like to not know anything about the game. In order to learn, someone has to teach you, or you have to read and try to understand the guides online (note: this will take hours due to the amount you have to try to grasp); and even then, they don't teach you everything, especially when it comes to common community ideals and how they do things. Getting into my first Abyssea party was actually difficult. I had no idea what I was doing; what are lights? What is cruor? Where do I go? Should I use this traverser stone thing? What if I screw up and run out of time? Am I going to get more time? I asked multiple party leaders to invite me, telling them it's my first time, and they ignored me. They can't be bothered to explain how it all works, and that was only after I somehow figured out that I should go to the Abyssea in La Theine, and learned that this "Abyssea" thing was actually a good place to EXP after 75. There's no set path of progression in this game, and even now, I am left confused often on what to do. Where should I go next? What should I be doing? These are common questions asked nonstop of new players. What the heck is a Chains of Promathia? Should I bother doing those missions? What will I get out of it? Naturally, often times, they have no one to answer these questions; the game certainly doesn't tell you. The game doesn't even tell you that "this NPC will start the Chains of Promathia story line" so you don't even know what you would be getting yourself into if you listened and did what he wants you to do (see my complaint about the random cutscenes a new player gets for zoning into Jeuno). So what do they do? They go and level up. Leveling up is the clearest, most obvious goal. Apparently, however, this somehow gets classified as "rushing to end game", I guess.

Review all of the above, again, and consider why new players don't stick with the game. Also remember that the community could easily help the situation, however, they're doing the exact opposite, and making things worse.

So now, I began my journey into Adoulin, once again asking these same questions. What is skirmish? Why should I do it? Where are the missions? How many of these coalition assignments should I do? What is bayld for? What's a reive? What should I be doing out here? Why are people fighting the random mobs, is it for exp? Are there quests I should be doing somewhere from some random NPC? What are these weird items I'm getting? Yes, once again: none of it is explained in game. I was able to answer some of those questions by looking at the wikis and stuff, but others, I still have no idea.

Finally, please do stop assuming things of me and everyone else. Not everyone comes into this game expecting "WoW" or to get everything instantly. You need to look at it from a different angle for once.

[OKOA]

Read your post and understand some of your frustrations.

I think most of these reasons explain why this game will never truly see a renaissance. The game only truly appeals to persons with a morbid obsession for self inflicted completionist pain.

With that said, it sounds like you are one of those people. Good job getting all of that done in such a short amount of time!

I say don't quit now that you're finally ahead. Maybe all you needed was a good chance to vent?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I find it mind boggling that there are actually people, players, on this forum, that are telling newbies they should quit because they're finding it difficult. You guys are not doing much for your community, or your game, and yet you complain all the time that the servers are lacking people.

It's a feedback loop. The ones who hang onto this game the longest tend to be the ones who have the most invested in the game already, who then flock together into a noisy elitist bloc that other players find repugnant and are driven away by.

As a long-time player myself, I'm spending most of my time lately just doing some of the "endgame" activities that were never accessible to me at 75 or 99. But even that novelty is wearing thin fast as the storyline progression aspects of those activities run out long before the grindy timesink aspects do. Most of my old linkshell has already migrated to XIV and not looked back, and it feels like we few who remain are around more out of habit or spite than anything else.

[Draylo]

Why do you have to rush to end game? You can enjoy the storylines for the various expansion packs, there is a lot of content to do (which you've said how much of it you did) outside of current endgame. For a new player wanting to experience everything the product has to offer, you didn't touch upon most of it. Have you done any assaults or salvage or anything like that? You have to join a linkshell, every server has at least one or two social shells that toss pearls to anyone asking. You also chose the wrong job if you wanted to jump right into the current end game content. That would be better done on BRD or COR instead of SMN.

Main reason I don't help random new people anymore is because they quit so easily just like you did after one month lol. A month where it would have taken a player in 2007ish like a whole year to do the content you did. So now those people that helped you just pretty much wasted their time because you didn't even appreciate the time you spent playing this game in that month. See you again in two months when you decide to come back and waste more peoples time by them helping you and you end up quitting again.

[Crevox]

I say don't quit now that you're finally ahead. Maybe all you needed was a good chance to vent?

Maybe, I just don't know. All my friends are pretty much done with it at this point, so I would be going solo (though honestly, a lot of what I did above besides some of the exping was solo as well, so it wouldn't be much different....).

I'm looking forward to the new relic armors, Cait Sith in March, and other things. I want to do Adoulin and try all that out, but the thought of more missions and waiting for more Japanese midnights (coalitions missions are time-gated I think?) at this point repels me from going there (especially when I'm not even done with Zilart). It gets exhausting, especially since the majority of the time spent doing them is not fighting/combat, it's just auto-run through fields for hours or talking to NPCs.

When it comes to things like doing party content, I don't even know where to start. Like, for example, what if I wanted to go do one of those BCNMs for pages? Or how about some Abyssea zone bosses for Lunar Abyssite/go high five Shinryu? What about that Voidwatch thing? What do I do, just shout in town? I'm going to say I probably don't have the time to dedicate myself to a linkshell with a schedule, nor do I know if they're going to even want to bother doing stuff like that. It just seems so difficult.

[Mirage]

I don't think you'll find anyone here that thinks jp midnight waits are good. I still don't have a problem with having to complete a certain amount of mission lines to get access to stuff though.

[Crevox]

Why do you have to rush to end game? You can enjoy the storylines

Rush? Enjoy storylines?

Dude, there is no clear cut path as to what to do in this game, ever, for anyone. A new player does not even know what a "Chains of Promathia" even is. You have to understand that expecting new players to know they shouldn't just try to level up in an MMO is... not a thing.

The missions, at this point, are not enjoyable. I enjoy reading the dialogue, and there were some epic cutscenes, but as I mentioned in my previous post, the majority of it is "Auto Run: The Game" for hours on end or teleporting from place to place, followed by some random encounter with a monster you one shot (no, making it difficult would not make it more fun, it would just make it take longer at this point). I'm also pretty sure I've inflicted much wear on my alt-tab from looking at guides nonstop.


You also chose the wrong job if you wanted to jump right into the current end game content. That would be better done on BRD or COR instead of SMN.

I played the job I wanted to play. I will admit, I went into this knowing that SMN wasn't "popular" or it was "frowned upon" or I heard horror stories of how it's "crap", but no, I wanted to play the job I wanted to play, and I can't be frowned upon for that. Besides that, I'd like to believe I've done a darn good job getting myself prepared to do the best I can (I have macros to swap all my gear for VARIOUS things, got all the avatars, got so many pieces of obscure summoner gear for skill/BP delay/etc, capped my summoning skill... I could go on). It's not like I hit max level and went "LOL WHERE PARTY I WANT BEAT STUFF UP WITH MY SQUIRREL."


See you again in two months when you decide to come back and waste more peoples time by them helping you and you end up quitting again.

This negativity in the community never helps anyone.

[Draylo]

This game probably isn't for you then. Have you tried World of Warcraft or its twin FFXIV? This isn't meant to be a WoW clone, hence why it has its smaller playerbase who enjoy this type of game.

[Crevox]

This game probably isn't for you then. Have you tried World of Warcraft or its twin FFXIV? This isn't meant to be a WoW clone, hence why it has its smaller playerbase who enjoy this type of game.

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the time I spent in FFXI. I wouldn't have played it for an entire month if I didn't enjoy it, but my god... the things this game put me through. Not going to recap, you can press the PAGE-UP key for that.

As for the question, yes, I played both.

I quit WoW a long time ago after playing every expansion up until Pandaland, got bored in Pandaland because of daily extravaganza and quit.

I'm still subbed to FFXIV (legacy 180 day sub), sitting in Revenant's Toll as a full item level 90 SMN. Bored, nothing to do, not entirely enjoying how WoW clone it is, but that's a discussion for another time/topic.

[Xantavia]

Sounds to me like you just burned yourself out, trying to do way too much in a short amount of time. Did you have a checklist and just go down the list with stuff to do? For a game this old, I think it would be better to take it slow. A lot of the missions don't require level 99 to do, but if people chose to do it that way, it removes any sort of challenge and turns it into a speedbump. I myself have barely touched Adoulin and am O.K. with it. Instead, I decided to make a relic by farming the currency myself. Am I looking to do it in a month? Heck no, I'm thinking summer at the earliest for my playstyle.

It seems that FFXI just isn't for you. If you believe the game really doesn't begin until endgame, this system will beat you down. Take the long view and it might be more enjoyable.


I'm going to say that the old players need to stop looking at this game through nostalgia goggles. Times have changed. The game is not the same as it was before. You need to accept change, and move forward, or this game is going to suffer. There are a LOT of things that could be changed, and should be changed, for the game to move forward and prosper for years to come. However, it doesn't help when the majority of the community is straight up rude to new players, or thinks that it's right for them to "suffer the same way they did in the past." The response to practically anything I say is "YOU KNOW IT WAS SO MUCH HARDER IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD STOP COMPLAINING." I spent a lot of time arguing/discussing various topics (mythic weapons, mission requirements, etc) with people on this forum, and boy, it's been an uphill battle. So many people want all the requirements to stay, and if you don't like it, "too bad this isn't the game for you."
For me, it is not a matter of "I did it, you should do it too". I enjoyed the game the way it was. A lot of people did. We don't want a game we like to shift directions so drastically that it becomes unrecognizable. It happened when the level cap was raised. I came close to quitting when they started adding ilvl stuff. I don't want to run off new players, but at the same time I don't want the game to change from what I fell in love with.

[Camiie]

Why do you have to rush to end game?

To not be alone.


You can enjoy the storylines for the various expansion packs,

Yes, alone.


there is a lot of content to do (which you've said how much of it you did) outside of current endgame.

Yes, alone.


For a new player wanting to experience everything the product has to offer, you didn't touch upon most of it. Have you done any assaults or salvage or anything like that?

A new player doing these things alone is in for a world of frustration and really isn't going to benefit from doing any of it. It's just a lonely waste of time.


You have to join a linkshell, every server has at least one or two social shells that toss pearls to anyone asking.

A linkshell in which he'd be lucky to find one person willing to occasionally help him with anything that's not current content.


You also chose the wrong job if you wanted to jump right into the current end game content. That would be better done on BRD or COR instead of SMN.

He probably made the same mistake many new players make. He likely chose a job he thought he'd actually enjoy.


Main reason I don't help random new people anymore is because they quit so easily just like you did after one month lol.

I'm not in your head, but I doubt it's the MAIN reason. Just the one you use to justify things.


A month where it would have taken a player in 2007ish like a whole year to do the content you did. So now those people that helped you just pretty much wasted their time because you didn't even appreciate the time you spent playing this game in that month. See you again in two months when you decide to come back and waste more peoples time by them helping you and you end up quitting again.

Most people refuse to help because they have nothing to gain from helping and never look at the big picture that the game as a whole benefits from people like us paying the help WE got forward.

[Feary]

sad part is most the issues you are experiencing are because of S.E trying to fix what was not broken. pre abyssea you wouldnt have had 90% of the issues you had. Playing this game 10 years now since ps2 release you tend to see tends and consequences that others dont because they are blind by their own misfortune. either way even with or without my nostalgic glasses on you are right about he community. we have basically imploded on ourselves.

i also hate to be that guy but you did choose smn. Its history has never been anything close to what you want to get out of this game.

first off. as a geo or smn you are going to need to cap those skills for consideration on those jobs. period. with skill up tomes it wont be that bad.

as for endgame, at best what you have to look forward to is going to be ADL on smn

with 2 decent mnks and perfect defense he can be killed. get 4 ppl, kill 2 per day. marrows are 5m+ each.

as a geo you can do delve content which maybe more your fantasy. however you need to get to adoulin first. do skimish in yorcia and get the pdt armors and smn augments.

as for coalition assignments, dont look forward to them. they are like wow dailys? i played wow for less than 3 weeks after BC release capped my shadow priest and never look back. so forgive it my term is wrong.

i personally have capped 3/6 coalitions at legend over a 10 month period. accumulated 1 tag every 6 hours during that time and level 1 to cap is like 180 ish tags? there is no real reward other than the exp for recapping after a death or leveling pre abyssea (pre level of 30).

also a wildkeeper reive or two might help your spirits.

right now you have to get to adoulin.

the game is half the game it was 4 years ago let along 6. your not going to get much if you cant enjoy the grind or as you call it work.

you have done well so far dont give up. i am grateful that you exists even thought what i may think would contradict what you feel.

too bad you are not on my server but then again my server has the worse population lol

[Lithera]

To me it seems like you burned out. Also might be on the wrong server. Should go back in the past it can be nice there. Yes there are things even right outside of the cities that will agro to a level 50. Always use yell if you need a few people to do something. Coalition is tag based only have so many points every six hours. Anything from go collect x number to items to doing reives in zones. Outside of the weapons from RoE you won't be able kill things in SoA areas unless you do skirmish. A huge reason why smn isn't wanted is because their damage heavily relies on their avatars and many of the new nms loose their crap if hit while they're doing certain things. I'm not sure if they would be slower than a pup at soloing a reive with just using their pet or not. Specially if you were not to use any blood pacts. Can't get some of the higher geo spells if you don't spend time in SoA or the AF. Though yes if you do choose to stay try not to rush so much next time I know it sucks that everyone is so focused SoA content and only that. Until SE makes it so doing older content means owning things for current older areas are going to be ghost towns except maybe during special events.

[Demonjustin]

I agree with the idea of you getting burnt out, but, I still agree with you on the matter it should not be so difficult, time taking, or simply boring just to get to do things with others. You said yourself that you haven't experienced any party content and at that are having a hard time of even figuring out where to begin, you do not seem stupid, to lack some form of knowledge that should be apparent to everyone, rather you simply lack a guide telling you what to do at every turn which is basically what most people coming into this game had at some point. I myself had my friend Konin who has since quit, he guided me through the beginning of this game and helped me pick my goals which made it a lot easier to get into the game, he also helped me get a shell so that even after he left the game, I had others who I was familiar with who would help me all the same. You seem to lack this sort of friend who can help you through these things and all of your friends you did or do have seem to be just as new as you. I know everyone here keeps giving you crap about your asking for help, but, if nothing else know at least one person agreed with you on here that this game is far too time taking, boring, and confusing to get into, and wants to see much of it change similarly to how you seem to want it to. We may not agree on every single thing I'm sure, and some of what you have mentioned at times I disagree with, but I feel like there is much we do agree on.

If you ever find your way to Phoenix, I have a linkshell I would happily invite you to and you are welcome to join any time. Also, as a SMN, I have another you may be able to join to make a bit of extra gil on the side, though that is up to the leader not me, we do need SMNs with Alex and since you have that fulfilled already, it could be another great way of trying to get you integrated into some groups. I know the cost of changing servers may deter you from it, but, I just wanted to make you the offer incase you wish to stick around and try it out. :)

[OKOA]

He probably made the same mistake many new players make. He likely chose a job he thought he'd actually enjoy.




QFT.

So much honesty.

[bungiefanNA]

The problem with an MMO this old is that the remaining player base has congealed into certain types.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comments/1vciha/beginner_content_question/cer5hlq

and the rest of the thread that came from:

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comments/1vciha/beginner_content_question/

That covers a lot of it.

SMN is not a desired job unless specifically geared, an 11 years of content to get through to gear it, means you either beg help from an LS or do it solo. Even well geared, pet jobs have problems with the current enmity system and with their damage output compared to players without pets. That you did that much in a month is impressive with how long it used to take to do that much. I've been playing since JP launch, with maybe 2 years total forced absence with the billing change they did with SE accounts making me unable to pay for 8 months, and another 14 I was away because of a bad financial situation. I still don't have any expansions completely completed in the mission list except Abyssea and A Crystalline Prophecy, though I made major progress in Promathia and Zilart since coming back in October.

I party with a social LS I joined when I came back to dead shells from my old LS leader getting cancer before Adoulin, taking a year break, and not wanting to catch up on an expansion when FFXIV was ready to relaunch. It's usually only 2-3 other people at a time unless doing Adoulin content in my party, unless we are doing a large EXP party. I don't have time to focus on endgame, usually only getting 4-6 hours a week to play, and not at static times either, so my objective with the game is to complete the storyline, which I have wanted to do for a long time.

[detlef]

Well since that's my statement you quoted, I'll just add my thoughts again. I am perfectly fine with content being locked behind missions. Missions have been become easier over time due to nerfs and being level 99. You can solo it. I think we've covered this before; it's a lot of running around and, since we're so strong now, the hard part is this busywork rather than the fights (which have become trivial). Also, as mentioned earlier in this thread, JP midnight waits are stupid and should be abolished (I do believe that is going to be addressed in a future update). Now with that said, I still think it's fair to lock content behind these missions. It's not even because I went through it, therefore everybody should have to. To me, it's just an initiation to the game. Agree, disagree, that's fine but I know there are a lot of players who would agree.

When I read your posts, the thing that rubs me the wrong way is that you come in, 11 years into the life of the game, and say "Nope, nope this is all wrong. The way it is, that's no good. Change it all for me. I shouldn't have to do CoP to get AF 109. I shouldn't have to get rank 6 to do Dynamis." When you say that, I think a lot of veterans would be annoyed. To me, it's like complaining about needing a permit to improve your house. I can see it from your perspective, but I have my own perspective too that's just how I feel.

Regarding your friends, I just think this game wasn't for them. The work comparison is apt. Certain parts of the game are much closer to work than play. It boils down to the feeling of accomplishment, whether it comes from the execution of a plan and winning a tough fight or months of daily grinding to finish a goal. When you progress to a certain point in the game, this is what it is.

Related to the work comment, unless you love BRD, WHM, or something like that, you can't just get by on one job. Especially if that job is SMN. The job is very useful in certain content as well as solo/low-man, but it's not universally useful. Almost no job is. The beauty of this game is being able to level multiple jobs on the same character. Most people level at least one utility job for content that requires more specialization. If you want to play SMN exclusively then I'm afraid you will be shut out of a lot of content.

Anyway, I am sorry if my comment contributed to your departure from the game. I think the game is fun, but a lot of what makes it worthwhile is the friends I've made over the years. If your friends are gone then the game becomes very lonely. We may disagree on what the game should be but I don't think that there's much disagreement over what the game is.

[Draylo]

To not be alone.



Yes, alone.



Yes, alone.



A new player doing these things alone is in for a world of frustration and really isn't going to benefit from doing any of it. It's just a lonely waste of time.



A linkshell in which he'd be lucky to find one person willing to occasionally help him with anything that's not current content.



He probably made the same mistake many new players make. He likely chose a job he thought he'd actually enjoy.



I'm not in your head, but I doubt it's the MAIN reason. Just the one you use to justify things.



Most people refuse to help because they have nothing to gain from helping and never look at the big picture that the game as a whole benefits from people like us paying the help WE got forward.

Why do people like you exist? Quit and go to WoW already.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

the hard part is this busywork rather than the fights (which have become trivial).


To me, it's just an initiation to the game.

Just how long is an "initiation" supposed to take? How many months worth of subscriptions is he supposed to pay before he can actually play the game, when there are so many other MMO options (including those published by S-E themselves) that let new players hit the ground running?

Should we update the NPC tutorial dialogs to state "Don't even think of doing any content released since 2010 until you've logged 500 hours?"


Agree, disagree, that's fine but I know there are a lot of players who would agree.

And we're quickly approaching the point where only those who agree with you will be the ones paying for the monthly subscription. I hope for your sake that's enough subscribers to keep FFXI in the black, or else nobody will be playing, whether they agree with you or not.


When you say that, I think a lot of veterans would be annoyed. To me, it's like complaining about needing a permit to improve your house.

At this point the house is in Detroit, blighted, the prior owner walked away from the mortgage, and nobody else is interested in picking up the property because the HOA still insists on abiding by truly Byzantine covenants.

"But the veterans might complain!" Veterans are leaving too. Unless FFXI can attract and keep new subscribers, there won't be a game left to complain about.


Related to the work comment, unless you love BRD, WHM, or something like that, you can't just get by on one job.

Even if that's the way the game "should" be, where does it state that in the manual (http://www.playonline.com/ff11/manual/index.html?loc=en)? "There are 22 jobs in FFXI! 17 of them you shouldn't bother with."

[Draylo]

Oh boy, here we go with the dead game comments.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Oh boy, here we go with the dead game comments.

Ever think there might actually be legitimate reasons why there are only really two topics of conversation in these forums?

[L0IRE]

This is RPG, RPG= life simulator.
"playing MMORPG"= your 2nd home, if you can't accept this, then quit, this isn't the game for you.
I find it mind boggling that there are actually people, players, on this forum, that are telling newbies they should quit because they're finding it difficult. You guys are not doing much for your community, or your game, and yet you complain all the time that the servers are lacking people. This does not help. It also doesn't help that everyone in game is extremely quiet and does not want to talk to anyone unless you're already friends with them, and finding a group for anything is really difficult. Rarely do I see shouts for PUGs, and when I tried to join, yeah, you know what happened. I ended up making my own linkshell and shouted recruitment to try to get other new players to join so I could help them out and we could all talk. It worked for a while, I got about 6 other members; only 1 still plays (the others quit I assume, they haven't logged in for weeks).

this is the sad state of most MMO's on their way out, all that's left is the grumpy, impatient, basement dweller elitist who look down on everyone else with their 1200 day play time, so being new you have to deal with these _____. They are just mad that now all their time and effort is worth a little less now that a kid playing one month can get as far as they did in that 10 years, I'd be mad, but hey its a game, get over it. I mean if you can't be patient and respectful of new comers, your a contributing factor to your games low population, just my cents.

sorry you got treated the way you did in-game and on this forum, people forget where they come from when they can't see it from their pedestal.

[Demonjustin]

Why do people like you exist? Quit and go to WoW already.Yes because everything said there was very anti-FFXI Draylo.

[Xantavia]

Just how long is an "initiation" supposed to take? How many months worth of subscriptions is he supposed to pay before he can actually play the game, when there are so many other MMO options (including those published by S-E themselves) that let new players hit the ground running?

You can play the game since day one. Since it sounds like he started with several friends, he was in a much better position to enjoy it than somebody else who didn't know anybody. The problem is in thinking the game doesn't start until level 99. With a group a friends, somebody can do older content as they level. Seeing as nation mission 5-1 used to be capped at 50, that gives you a guide at what level it is possible. Spreading out progress would likely stop it from feeling like a grind. I think players rush to 99, then feel overwhelmed by what they think they need to do to enjoy it. Take your time and older content is no longer irrelevant. Rewards you get can be applied to accomplish the next set of goals.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

The problem is in thinking the game doesn't start until level 99.

The problem is that way of thinking may not be wrong. For example:


Seeing as nation mission 5-1 used to be capped at 50, that gives you a guide at what level it is possible

S-E claimed that they were finally fixing the years-old mission cutscene bug with the prior update, but I've certainly not seen confirmation (let alone mention) of that in the update notes themselves or since. These low-level content issues are allowed to languish because the devs are throwing all their man-hours at level 99+ content. They're throwing their man-hours at that content because it's the only content getting played.


Spreading out progress would likely stop it from feeling like a grind.

Ah yes, he could instead spend some time doing Eco-Warrior, or Garrison, or Expeditionary Force, or Ballista, or BS/E/IS/ANNMs, or Campaign Battle, or...

[L0IRE]

This game probably isn't for you then. Have you tried World of Warcraft or its twin FFXIV? This isn't meant to be a WoW clone, hence why it has its smaller playerbase who enjoy this type of game.

here you go, good example, "go play wow", you know how old that comments getting, its about as old as a "mom" jokes and about as creative, I forgot you got to where you are solely on your own? never asked for help? as I thought.

[Rubicant82]

I've been around sense the game was release in North America, and I am absolutely floored by the negativity of some members of the community. This goes for both the veteran and the new players.

First off this game was meant to be a social game, it was designed originally around the party and alliance systems and almost all content up until the last few years has not really solo friendly. Now it is a much different game. I want to say that what you have accomplished in a month is more than a lot of people do, and for that you should be proud, but it definitely sounds like you burned yourself out, maybe a small break to relax yourself in to a more recreational casual schedule.

Now to those people who are telling each other to quit I am disappointed. We are a community, and it is shameful to tell someone that they should quit. You should be ashamed of yourselves! But I’m sure you won’t be, not that it really matters. Everyone has the right to be happy in the game. Sure we had it a lot harder than the new players, it took us forever to get what we have, but if this game is to survive in the long term we need to have new players.

I recently started a new character on a different server than I normally play on to hang out with some friends from the FFXI facebook group and it has been interesting. In a week I feel like I have accomplished almost nothing, but I have gone further than I did in a year back in 2003 (that might be because being active duty navy I couldn’t play that much, not the point!) and I have had help for several parts of my new little adventure. This game is not meant to be a solo game, and it is up to us as a community to welcome the new players and teach them the ropes. I try to help new people when I have time, because I know what it is like not having help when you need it, and I won’t lie it is fun to go back and pay a visit to some of the NMs that were so hard now that I am 99 and have iLvL gear and utterly destroy them, giving me a sense of satisfaction that can only come from the massacre of something that gave you much turmoil.

As for the job thing, I am a strong supporter of diversity. Have the job you love to play, have the job you play for events, and have a job you play just because. I know that End-Game content has very specific “requirement” but honestly those are set by the players who beat the content first, and there for everyone must mimic them right? Yes everyone wants to win, I hate losing too, but with the all the new stuff why the hell is no one for science’ing anymore? Experimentation, adventure, and challenging fights are part of the game, yet we resign ourselves to a single set up with very few deviations for EGC.

I’m sure there will be plenty of negative feedback about this post, and the topic as a whole, but we as a community should be supporting each other and not at each other’s throats. It makes me very sad to see players acting like this.

[Camiie]

Why do people like you exist?

Well, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much they make a baby and in this case that baby was me.


Quit and go to WoW already.

Way to refute my assessment that people rush to endgame so they don't have to slog through tons of outdated content alone. I realize that asking this of you is like asking the sun not to rise, but you really need to pull your head out of the sand and realize that FFXI isn't perfect. Vana'diel is underpopulated, and the only way to find people doing things is to race to the top and join current content. Even the devs realize this, and they're usually the last ones to pick up on the game's trends. And no, the game isn't dead, but it is incredibly top-heavy and new players are stuck on their own for anything pre-Adoulin even with a linkshell. Yes, that is a legitimate turn-off to many players and denying it doesn't make the issue go away. Telling me and anyone else to go away doesn't fix anything either.

[Draylo]

You don't have to do things alone, there are still players out there. I bet I could restart the game on a new character and when I'm forced to play with people I could find them. This guy is just helpless and complaining because he is a WoW era MMO kiddie and wants everything handed to him. He wants this entire game changed to suit his needs because he wants to blast through all the content he deems as crap. Sorry missions are nothing because he just wants to do the latest endgame so he can complain when he finishes it all and says the game has no content.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

because he wants to blast through all the content he deems as crap.

Seekers of Adoulin as a stand-alone add-on is sold for $29.99. Ultimate Collection Seekers Edition, bundling Seekers of Adoulin with everything else, is priced at $39.99.

That means that "everything else," all your Zilart and Promathia and everything you need to get a relic, a mythic, an empyrean... everything is worth a whopping $10. It's worth $10 to the market, it's worth $10 to the publishers, it's worth 1/3 of what the new Seekers content is worth, it's worth 1/2 of what S-E charges for an Android/iOS rehash of an SNES game.

Saying that pre-Adoulin content is inferior (or at least "less desirable") to the latest content is beyond mere "personal preference" by this point. The customer base, the publisher, the entire market is in agreement. And insisting that a new customer plunk down money on this game and then spend the next month or two unable to enjoy 3/4 of what they paid for is entirely unreasonable on its face.

[Draylo]

That is where we are seeing things differently. When I pay for a product, I want to experience everything it offers. I don't buy a brand new video game and say "UGH I have to level and do the storyline to grind out gear in end game, they should so cut out that process" No I don't say that at all, I progress through the game as it was intended.

[Raydeus]

So after reading the OP it seems it's just another case of trying to sprint at full speed in a very long marathon.

And either he paces himself and plans for long term goals, or he will burst into flames and rage quit.

Edit >
Being at the same level as everyone else to do "relevant content"...

/sigh

What happened to playing to enjoy the huge world with all the quests, missions, stories, lore and adventure outside of the mindless repetition of "endgame"?

If this is how things are going to be in the future I guess the next step in "modernizing" MMOS will be to give all new players a fully leveled character with all the quests and gear already acquired so they can go do "relevant content" and leave the game a month or two later because "there's nothing to do".

I miss the old days so much... orz

[Draylo]

Me too, I agree with you. People in this gen are the call of duty/WoW meatheads that want instant gratification. I really hope SE doesn't cater to them, they already did with FFXIV.

[Demonjustin]

I bet I could restart the game on a new character and when I'm forced to play with people I could find them.I bet you know people who would help you with no problems as well, even excluding that factor, I missed the part where he complained about parts that force you to play with people, rather it seems to me the problem most people have with this game when starting out is the fact that you have to go through a bunch of other things basically alone to get to the point where you can play with others without feeling as though you are dragging them down. Why is it so hard to understand people do not want to play a MMO so they can play for a month basically alone the entire time grinding through old boring content as an initiation process just so they can get to the point they can actually play the game with other people and join the community?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

When I pay for a product

He paid for Seekers of Adoulin. Everything else is just a pack-in that sold for a whopping $5 on Steam and Amazon half the time.


I want to experience everything it offers.

But on your own terms, no doubt.

In this case he isn't saying "I don't want to do content X" but "I don't want to be forced to do content X right now in order to do Y." And the fact that everybody else is doing Y right now, because everybody else already has 99 and has little reason to muck about with that old, $5 content doesn't exactly help with his frustration and isolation in a "massively multiplayer" game.

The boards are on fire right now with how crowded La'Loff is. Any other content (outside of farming an RME) only gets mentioned to cite how much of a struggle it is to do with so few people interested.

[Aezelas]

[...]
-Did not touch Adoulin; never got a good reason to go there, wanted to explore it with friends, but friends got burnt out and quit before we even got that far. Beyond that, from the looks of it, it looks like more time gated content (coalition?) and all the other things above seemed to provide better armor/items/worth than Adoulin.

Basically, all the stuff I've done has been a long journey in order to get on the same level as every player; so I can actually do the relevant content. Groups would not invite me for content because I did not have Alexander/summoning skill gear, or my gear was poor, or because I was a Summoner, or some other reason (mission requirement is a common one, there are some other things too). So, I had to gather gear (and finish Aht Urhgan to unlock Alexander). [...]

As others stated it, you sound like you burnt yourself out trying to accomplish so many things too fast. And you sound like maybe you've been given misleading pieces of advice.
I can imagine you asked what you needed to do and have to play smn, or read guides telling what an endgame smn is supposed to wear.

What's true is that, one day or another, you would want alex and tons of summoning skill gear to fulfill the requirements to some events, or smn specific gear to enjoy the job even more.
But there's no way you actually need all that to start having fun or joining parties.

You did not touch adoulin because you had no reason to go there. That's really the only content you should have looked into in the first place.
You could have just geared your smn with eminence stuff, done a few missions and you've found yourself having an active role in wildkeepers reives.
Those are imo one of the most fun endgame events, where you just show up and meet other players that wouldn't even care about your gear, skill and ability to cast alex and such.

There, you would have had this strong boss you wanted to fight with random people that never happened after one month.
That's just one example of the many things that can be done without fulfilling elitists requirements.

And maybe you would have met nice people that would have welcomed you in a social ls.
LS is most likely the answer to the "not being invited by random guys" problem. LS are filled with bored or kind people, that would help others getting things done.
You could join those ls members when they're soloing aby nms for example, since you mentioned you had trouble getting into that content, which by the way still has to offer to smn.
They would answer all your questions, so you would have to alt-tab a lot less. And unless it'd be for a really hard content, they wouldn't care about which job you'd want to show up as.

The community is not as bad as you describe it, and the fun is not just about content with restricted requirements.

[Demonjustin]

What happened to playing to enjoy the huge world with all the quests, missions, stories, lore and adventure outside of the mindless repetition of "endgame"?

I miss the old days so much... orzYou miss the old days, yet, you don't like mindless repetition? From what I ever experienced or saw the old days were, just that, mindless repetition, pull and kill this crab, move to that area, pull and kill that crab, get to 75, kill Colibris, leveling was mindless and it was the majority of what people did in the game. As for Quests, Missions, Stories, and Lore, they are integrated into games now through XP rewarding means as well, some people care about story others do not and either way you have a reason to do it, it never feels worthless, and it can even be part of the leveling up process unlike this game which gives you next to nothing so far as rewards go until the very end.

People constantly shit on new games saying they have worse stories or they are instant gratification, easy, whatever you want to call them but guess what, they are video games, games, not work, meant for enjoyment, and no matter what you want to tell yourself in your mind about this game, the beginning month when you are lost and trying to not only learn how to play, but figure out where everyone is, what your goals need to be, and how to get things done in a timely manner, is not fun at all to the grand majority of people.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

What happened to playing to enjoy the huge world with all the quests, missions, stories, lore and adventure outside of the mindless repetition of "endgame"?

Those players got 99+, ran out of lore, and moved on to the greener pastures of Eorzea, leaving newer players who might share those interests with nobody left to share those interests with.


If this is how things are going to be in the future I guess the next step in "modernizing" MMOS will be to give all new players a fully leveled character

It'd be an improvement for the status quo for people seeking to play GEO or RUN, who must level some other job to 66+ to get past Maat.

But you hardly hear complaints about that any more since only new players would be the ones complaining.

[L0IRE]

Me too, I agree with you. People in this gen are the call of duty/WoW meatheads that want instant gratification. I really hope SE doesn't cater to them, they already did with FFXIV.

they already have catered to the "call of duty/WoW " crowd with sync parties among other changes to XP and parties, the age that ffxi lives in is dead and gone, MMO grinds are a thing of the past, its a relic, even games like Lineage 2 which required hours upon hours to gain mid-game levels, like ffxi, died, and came back reborn with your so dubbed "call of duty/WoW" style, now is flourishing and opening new servers with the influx of new players, the game has even opened up in brazil and Russia, a game that was down to running 2 ghost town servers, so its like life, survival of the fittest, you can either adapt, change, and be relevant with times, or stay the same, wither, and die.

[Camiie]

You don't have to do things alone, there are still players out there. I bet I could restart the game on a new character and when I'm forced to play with people I could find them.

Not starting from zero without any of the knowledge and personal connections you have now. I guarantee you'd be left to your own devices just like any other newbie who's joined recently. People would write you off as someone not worth helping just like you've written off the OP.

[detlef]

Just how long is an "initiation" supposed to take? How many months worth of subscriptions is he supposed to pay before he can actually play the game, when there are so many other MMO options (including those published by S-E themselves) that let new players hit the ground running?

Should we update the NPC tutorial dialogs to state "Don't even think of doing any content released since 2010 until you've logged 500 hours?"What's your solution to allow new players to access content? SE's original intent was to have people do missions and quests to unlock activities and events. I see two options that SE can choose to make these activities accessible to newbies:

1. Remove any tie between content and mission/quest progress, allowing anybody to access the content the first day they log on.

2. Severely nerf the content to allow newbies to progress through the prerequisites much faster than when the content was originally introduced.

If you were SE, which choice would you make? Throw away hundreds upon thousands of man hours of development time so that newbies can get to "the good stuff" faster? Or reduce the difficultly and tediousness as much as possible so the content is still experienced by players? Let's face it, if missions were still hard and couldn't be soloed, new players wouldn't be able to do them at all. At least making them easier through nerfs and a raised level cap allows newbies to experience them.


Vana'diel is underpopulated, and the only way to find people doing things is to race to the top and join current content. Even the devs realize this, and they're usually the last ones to pick up on the game's trends. And no, the game isn't dead, but it is incredibly top-heavy and new players are stuck on their own for anything pre-Adoulin even with a linkshell. Yes, that is a legitimate turn-off to many players and denying it doesn't make the issue go away.This is absolutely accurate. The game is top heavy, and SE's decision to accommodate new players by pushing them to 99 is probably the best way to deal with things. If you aren't 99 there's not much to do in this game, so why not get newbies on semi-equal footing as quickly as possible? Still, there must be a balance between catching newbies up and having them experience older content the way it was intended (as much as possible at least).


I'm still subbed to FFXIV (legacy 180 day sub), sitting in Revenant's Toll as a full item level 90 SMN. Bored, nothing to do, not entirely enjoying how WoW clone it is, but that's a discussion for another time/topic.When you requested that the Mythic quest be dumbed down, aren't you asking for FFXI to be like FF14? Where even ultimate weapons are relatively easy to get and everybody looks the same? And you run out of things to do because you don't have long term goals?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

What's your solution to allow new players to access content?

Well, considering the specific example here, I'd simply not make Lumoria access a requirement for reforged Artifact armor. Upgrading to +1 before getting the level 109 version is optional; there's not even a requirement to do any Limbus (which makes the idea of Sagheera "singing your praises" seem even weirder). Where's the lore rationale for CoP progress when there aren't even any CoP jobs?

In contrast, one can upgrade an RME weapon to 119 without so much as having set foot in Promyvion, or have Tu'Lia access.

[Edyth]

Judging by your two threads, FFXI's just not your cup of tea.

You want to rush to the elitist end-game grind for some reason, something that isn't even fun, and you clearly don't enjoy the story, the journey, or character growth. If the story, journey, and progression seem like work to you, then clearly this isn't the game for you. Because endgame is REAL work and no damn fun.

[detlef]

Well, considering the specific example here, I'd simply not make Lumoria access a requirement for reforged Artifact armor. Upgrading to +1 before getting the level 109 version is optional; there's not even a requirement to do any Limbus (which makes the idea of Sagheera "singing your praises" seem even weirder). Where's the lore rationale for CoP progress when there aren't even any CoP jobs?

In contrast, one can upgrade an RME weapon to 119 without so much as having set foot in Promyvion, or have Tu'Lia access.AF upgrades are only one of his complaints though. He also complained about having to do nation missions in order to access Dynamis, Zilart missions in order to access Ark Angels, and ToAU in order to obtain Alexander. How would you address these?

[Lithera]

But to the op and to some of the others who actually had time to not be in the same boat as a new player the holy crap I can do this by myself but because there isn't a fight after every CS they see it only as work. Heck downing aby zone bosses is party play even if it is just bringing a tank and a TH procer or an extra healer. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a server where no one wants to help someone with something inside of aby. I don't understand why it's so hard to see that while you are working on doing the old content slowly you can do new content things you can do low man or will be able to do low man. There is no reason besides greed or selfishness to be needing to look like your job this instant. Why can't a run or geo beat their maat fights at 70 as said jobs? I haven't done them so I wouldn't know if it's like getting astral flowed before you could n dying or how maat would hundred fist you in your blm fight cause you know the old man cheats. Yes there isn't a tone of gear that is crafted for lv 70 for either job but there are some really good stuff you can get from other sources like allied notes have lv 65 or 68 gear.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

AF upgrades are only one of his complaints though. He also complained about having to do nation missions in order to access Dynamis, Zilart missions in order to access Ark Angels, and ToAU in order to obtain Alexander. How would you address these?

By not leaving new players feeling like they need a relic or a mythic to begin with.

(So sick of fighting over colorless souls...)

[Draylo]

Then there wouldn't be a desire to even obtain those items and you undervalue the effort people put into obtaining them. Remember how well that worked out when SE originally decided to phase out REM? I'd rather this game stay with a niche userbase than become a WoW machine and churn out crap instead of quality art. You don't need a massive population (infact with PS2 limitations that would be incredibly bad) to keep this game going, as evidenced through all these years this game has been around. They are having monthly updates and the server numbers have gone up over the last few months.

[Damane]

That is where we are seeing things differently. When I pay for a product, I want to experience everything it offers. I don't buy a brand new video game and say "UGH I have to level and do the storyline to grind out gear in end game, they should so cut out that process" No I don't say that at all, I progress through the game as it was intended.

I do agree to some point with you, but FFXI is so old that it carries alot of dead weight with it that is really not needed. They need to cut off some of the dead weight to make it for newer players easier to access the endgame at lvl 99. Not saying the Dev team didnt do allready enough in that direction, infact they did, but there is still some things to improve on. I think the biggest help for newer players would be to set the double exp as standard and remove all limit quests except for the maat-equivalent solo fights.
Maybe even untie some endgame content that is bound by story progression, NOT all but some. Dynamis and Salvage for example. Of course the ones that need special area access should remain as they are.

[Draylo]

Those are the things that allow new players a reason to do things in the world though. Some of those limit breaks make the player go to different places they wouldn't normally to do things, like Xarcabard for fighting those NMs or the far entrance to Eldieme or sneaking past the beastmen for that specific one. When you constantly cut all the lore related quests and missions and make it irrelevant, you are killing some of the uniqueness of the game. It doesn't take long at all to do those and it allows a new player to experience FFXI's world when there would be 0 reason to go to those places normally outside of random quests. The whole entire game doesn't start at 99, I have no idea why people feel that is necessary. If anything I feel they should have left an option to keep story missions capped so people who want to experience it the proper way are able to.

[Afania]

Since you're blaming everything on what I said in another topic, so I'll reply.





I'm going to say that the old players need to stop looking at this game through nostalgia goggles. Times have changed. The game is not the same as it was before. You need to accept change, and move forward, or this game is going to suffer. There are a LOT of things that could be changed, and should be changed, for the game to move forward and prosper for years to come. However, it doesn't help when the majority of the community is straight up rude to new players, or thinks that it's right for them to "suffer the same way they did in the past." The response to practically anything I say is "YOU KNOW IT WAS SO MUCH HARDER IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD STOP COMPLAINING." I spent a lot of time arguing/discussing various topics (mythic weapons, mission requirements, etc) with people on this forum, and boy, it's been an uphill battle. So many people want all the requirements to stay, and if you don't like it, "too bad this isn't the game for you." I still think this quote is hilarious:



I find it mind boggling that there are actually people, players, on this forum, that are telling newbies they should quit because they're finding it difficult. You guys are not doing much for your community, or your game, and yet you complain all the time that the servers are lacking people. This does not help. It also doesn't help that everyone in game is extremely quiet and does not want to talk to anyone unless you're already friends with them, and finding a group for anything is really difficult. Rarely do I see shouts for PUGs, and when I tried to join, yeah, you know what happened. I ended up making my own linkshell and shouted recruitment to try to get other new players to join so I could help them out and we could all talk. It worked for a while, I got about 6 other members; only 1 still plays (the others quit I assume, they haven't logged in for weeks).

Anyways, that's my story. At this point, I don't know what I want to do. If you read this far, thanks for caring. I've accomplished a lot, and I still don't know how much more there is to go, or if I'm ever even going to be able to do fun party fights with other people. A lot of the time I've spent playing I've looked forward to partying up with my friends, or even random people, to fight something difficult, a strong boss or something... and after one month, that never happened. Every time I get close to thinking I've accomplished something, something pops up in the way. A good example is the AF109; I gathered all the materials, then was told I have to finish Promathia first... that was very disheartening. Either way, I think I'm just burnt out, having to deal with all of this. I understand SE is trying to make things better, but the existing player base certainly isn't helping a lot of the time. I hope the game continues to improve into 2014, and I might resub at some point (I have the remainder of the month still going since I paid for 2 months), but for now, I think I just need a break at the very least.


I don't see much "negativity" by telling you to quit. It's a suggestion, you don't enjoy this game, so this game is simply not for you. I want new players that enjoys FFXI to play this game, but I don't want new players that doesn't like this game to play this game.


If you're going to view FFXI's using current-gen MMORPG formula, then yes it's work. If you don't want to play a game that feel like work, then don't play it. But there ARE ppl out there wants to play a game like 2nd life/work. It's the same reason why I don't enjoy Dark Souls because I hate dying over and over and walk all the way back to boss battle again, but some people enjoy it. Should I pop on a forum tell them to fix it? No, I simply just accept the fact that Dark Souls isn't for me and walk away.

I don't agree with FFXI should be super casual friendly in everything just because majority of players wants casual MMO. By number, casual market in gaming industry is always bigger, regardless of the genre. But that doesn't mean a 12 year old MMO that've been hardcore should change it's game direction by ditching it's old royal players. FFXI isn't going to get many new players because the UI/mechanic/graphic was subpar, it's first priority is to keep the old players by offering service they liked for past 12 years. If FFXI goes casual, it'll only piss off majority of old players AND it's not going to get that many new players anyways.

I think a lot of your "this isn't fun, this feel like work, why everything takes so long" attitude simply won't work in FFXI. Plenty of players play FFXI but not another MMO because of what FFXI is. I agree that pre-lv 99 FFXI is not as fun as how it used to be, due to the lack of player to pt with, and CoP nerf completely killed the sense of accomplishment of CoP. I agree that something should be done to fix it. But I don't agree with your opinion on Mythic, and I still don't understand why you'd worry about Mythic takes forever when you still haven't finish majority of content. Back when I decided to do a Mythic, I started it because I want to play this game for 5+ years, not because I want to finish the best weapon after a few months.

I've played quite a lot of MMORPG in my life, none of them last for longer than 2 months. FFXI is the only MMO last longer than 4 years, I played it daily and it's one game that changed my life. To me, this game is more than just a video game, but a 2nd life. I purposely choose to play this MMO, instead of GW2/WoW/SWTOR/FFXIV(none of the above title last longer than 2 months for me) and so on, because I want a 2nd life MMO but not "play for fun" MMO. If I want a "play for fun" MMO, I can always just reactivate my account in other titles.

As for the community, if your attitude is "I can't/don't know how to do this, please help me", I'm 100% sure plenty of players are willing to help. I've helped a lot of newer players back in the past, let new/returning players leech delve wins, give plenty of suggestions about how to gear jobs using my own time. And I've received a lot of help in noobie era too.

But if your attitude is "I don't like how this works, please change it.....wait you like how this works? NOSTALGIA GOOGLES!" Then obviously other people won't be happy. It's not the community is rude, it's you pop on a forum, wanting the game to change to something else. Criticizing certain aspect of this game using your own standard, then criticize anyone that disagree with your opinion.

How'd you feel if I criticize GW2 for the lack of holy trinity, or criticize SWTOR for being story focused, or criticize daoc and warhammer for being PVP focused?

Everything takes forever to do in FFXI, on the same time it feels nice to finally finish doing what you were doing in FFXI, has been the main appeal of FFXI for those who've been playing for years. I don't play GW2 if I want holy trinity, and IMO, FFXI simply isn't for you if you don't want to spend 3 years doing tons of boring stuff in a game. The way you view FFXI, by the time you really get every goal done, CoP done, lv 99 done, all AF 119 done, you still won't feel satisfied because all the higher lv content isn't any different from grinding CoP and mythic and so on, it still take forever, it still feels like work. All the endgame content in this game is still based on "living another life in a MMO". You're having unrealistic expectation toward this game and just wanted it to be something else. Even if everything is "fixed", you still won't have fun because your POV toward this game.

When I just started, I had the same opinion toward MMORPG too, game should be fun but not like life/work. So other FFXI players suggested me to quit. I didn't quit in the end, and there were time that I felt frustrated about this game too. But in the end, I received plenty of help from others and managed to complete majority of the goal in this game, now it's on the list of my favorite video game of all time...at least pre-SoA FFXI was. I changed my POV toward "game shouldn't feel like life/work", because the emotional attachment and sense of accomplishment is greater when the game is more than just a game.

FFXI is just different from other MMO, you either accept it's different and aiming for a niche market, or save $12 a month. Chang your attitude toward this game, play FFXI for the sake of living in the world of FFXI, not get the best gear and beat the most epic boss. Or else you'll never enjoy this game no matter what.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Then there wouldn't be a desire to even obtain those items and you undervalue the effort people put into obtaining them.

You overestimate the entertainment value of that effort. S-E has historically had issues selling that for $9.99.

[Afania]

they already have catered to the "call of duty/WoW " crowd with sync parties among other changes to XP and parties, the age that ffxi lives in is dead and gone, MMO grinds are a thing of the past, its a relic, even games like Lineage 2 which required hours upon hours to gain mid-game levels, like ffxi, died, and came back reborn with your so dubbed "call of duty/WoW" style, now is flourishing and opening new servers with the influx of new players, the game has even opened up in brazil and Russia, a game that was down to running 2 ghost town servers, so its like life, survival of the fittest, you can either adapt, change, and be relevant with times, or stay the same, wither, and die.

I'm not familiar with Lineage2, so I'm not sure what you said are accurate or not. There are usually more than 1 factor to get more player, changing to F2P model or a relaunch is usually No.1 reason why a title get more players. Drastic change of game direction alone isn't going to boost sub numbers. I fail to see how'd a 12 year old MMO compete with current-gen MMO if the 12 year old MMO do exactly the same as current-gen MMO.

Honestly, I see no reason to play FFXI if FFXI is the same as WoW/SWTOR/ARR/GW2 and so on. I've been thinking about quitting recently just because I feel FFXI is getting too similar to other titles, and I'd rather play other titles if they're all the same.

[Afania]

Judging by your two threads, FFXI's just not your cup of tea.

You want to rush to the elitist end-game grind for some reason, something that isn't even fun, and you clearly don't enjoy the story, the journey, or character growth. If the story, journey, and progression seem like work to you, then clearly this isn't the game for you. Because endgame is REAL work and no damn fun.


Endgame is fun, but it's not same kind of fun as ARR fun. ARR is instant gratification kind of fun, dodge red circle, voice chat with teamate and do thing on right time and so on.

FFXI endgame is more of a "long, hard journey toward a goal" kind of fun. There's zero satisfaction if the gear in FFXI come too soon. In fact I've been feeling FFXI is a lot less fun than how it used to be because it's getting more and more instant gratification, on the same time less instant gratification than games like ARR....gears are easy to obtain like ARR, but no dodge red circle/boss mechanics to play with.

OP asked "how much work he gonna do until he can enjoy the game", my answer is "he'll never enjoy the game" if he can't change his POV toward the game, and vice versa.

I agree that lower lv content isn't as fun as how it used to be because of solo solo solo, when it used to be party or bust pre-Abyssea. But this kind of POV(game should be fun not work) still doesn't fit quite well with FFXI even if he finally reach endgame party content.

[detlef]

By not leaving new players feeling like they need a relic or a mythic to begin with.

(So sick of fighting over colorless souls...)So how would you propose that SE fix that? There are already weapons in the game that are ilvl 119 like Tsurumaru, Izhiikoh, etc. There are Eminent weapons that aren't far behind. SE is planning to introduce a 3-song instrument that is supposedly easy to get (we'll see about that). Steadfast shield is supposed to be competitive with Ochain when it comes to total damage mitigation (or so I've heard). There are a ton of competitive weapons that even the most casual player can obtain relatively easily. There are even better options that can be obtained with a little more dedication. At the other end of the spectrum are RME weapons, which are not necessary for anything save the most difficult BCs. And some people might even argue that they are not necessary even then.

Aside from that, you just dodged the question. You provided no solution to the problem of how to handle events locked behind missions and quests. Again, would you remove the prerequisites? Or would you dumb them down? Or are you proposing that the best weapons and gear in the game be as easy to get as Eminent weapons?

[Mirage]

You don't have to do things alone, there are still players out there. I bet I could restart the game on a new character and when I'm forced to play with people I could find them. This guy is just helpless and complaining because he is a WoW era MMO kiddie and wants everything handed to him. He wants this entire game changed to suit his needs because he wants to blast through all the content he deems as crap. Sorry missions are nothing because he just wants to do the latest endgame so he can complain when he finishes it all and says the game has no content.

I'm not saying this because I think you're being arrogant or something, but I think it would be a great idea if you did that in the name of science. Level a new character, don't tell your friends what his or her name is, try to get to 99 and to clear all the stuff needed to participate in the SoA endgame. It'll be interesting to see how it goes. I'd do it myself, but I think I have more catching up to do than you.

[AppropriateName5786]

So how would you propose that SE fix that? There are already weapons in the game that are ilvl 119 like Tsurumaru, Izhiikoh, etc. There are Eminent weapons that aren't far behind. SE is planning to introduce a 3-song instrument that is supposedly easy to get (we'll see about that). Steadfast shield is supposed to be competitive with Ochain when it comes to total damage mitigation (or so I've heard). There are a ton of competitive weapons that even the most casual player can obtain relatively easily. There are even better options that can be obtained with a little more dedication. At the other end of the spectrum are RME weapons, which are not necessary for anything save the most difficult BCs. And some people might even argue that they are not necessary even then.

Aside from that, you just dodged the question. You provided no solution to the problem of how to handle events locked behind missions and quests. Again, would you remove the prerequisites? Or would you dumb them down? Or are you proposing that the best weapons and gear in the game be as easy to get as Eminent weapons?

It is not the playerbase's job to figure out how to fix the game's problems.

Frankly, everything that came before adoulin should be "dumbed down" more, simply because it adds nothing to the current game and never really did. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain from new players joining and being able to enjoy the relevant content ASAP. The toxic people in this thread that are killing the game with their rose-tinted glasses and contempt for good change (*good* meaning helping FFXI stay online and contributing to an overall more enjoyable game experience) have already had their fun, now it's time to let the younger/newer/fresher players enjoy theirs.

Please just realize that no one can take your past experiences and the fun times you had away from you (short of a concussion, memory loss, or death) nor is anyone trying to. Other people having fun now can not diminish the fun you had in the past, yet so many people in this thread act like a new player having immediate access to relevant content and enjoying himself causes them intense physical pain. On Sylph, it takes VW/AA/SKCNM/Delve groups HOURS to fill up regardless of the time of day. As someone who often organizes groups for things I can't find shouts for, I'd love it if server populations exploded and every new player who got to 99 and took 5 minutes to read an online strategy guide joined my group in Eminence gear and learned through doing the content, i.e. having access when it matters.

Get rid of fame, get rid of roadblocks to zones and events related to missions, get rid of JP midnight waits, get rid of shop times in Norg etc, get rid of antiquated physical roadblocks like Eldieme's/Shrine of Ru'Avitau's, get rid of all minimum person requirements like they did for Meebles/Assault, get rid of the 1 hour wait after getting kicked out of Abyssea, get rid of the inane Chocobo quest that's really just a microcosm of every storyline in the game, get rid of long spawn/respawn times for NMs, get rid of 0.01% drop rates. In short, get rid of everything that sucks about this game and let the good parts shine.

I love this game, and so I empathize with the OP and those arguing on his side. I play this game to fight big bad monsters, get good-looking gear and weapons, and cast spells with impressive animations, and I've been playing on and off since 2004. One of my in-game friends plays to keep his girlfriend company. Another plays because he has always wanted a mythic drg and it hasn't been possible for him until now. There is an infinite number of reasons people can give for playing this game, and all of them are valid as long as they pay the monthly fee and it doesn't affect anyone else negatively. There is so much more to this game than the extremely overrated storylines, so please stop saying that new players like the OP should be forced to go through them. Help this game change for the better and it will last much longer.

[L0IRE]

I'm not familiar with Lineage2, so I'm not sure what you said are accurate or not. There are usually more than 1 factor to get more player, changing to F2P model or a relaunch is usually No.1 reason why a title get more players. Drastic change of game direction alone isn't going to boost sub numbers. I fail to see how'd a 12 year old MMO compete with current-gen MMO if the 12 year old MMO do exactly the same as current-gen MMO.

Honestly, I see no reason to play FFXI if FFXI is the same as WoW/SWTOR/ARR/GW2 and so on. I've been thinking about quitting recently just because I feel FFXI is getting too similar to other titles, and I'd rather play other titles if they're all the same.

Lineage 2 isn't "next-gen" It was created one year after Final Fantasy XI and WoW, could of taken two seconds to look that up at least, it will be 11 years old this year, and almost everyone from my gaming community who played it 6 years ago( 120+ people) are playing it now, regardless of new mmo's, its stayed current, and its not hard with the crap that's out there to be honest, and yeah it just recently switched to F2P which also boosted numbers, but I mean if I didn't have to pay for FFXI, id come back at least one week every month instead of one year on and off.

But that being said, when a game goes F2P I feel the customer service takes a dive, so the argument of how could a 12 year old MMO compete with a next-gen, easy, there isn't any next-game MMO's, name one? Terra? AION? Rift? FFXIV? All these so called "next-gen" mmo's were complete flops on release, and now are f2p minus FFWoW..I mean FFXIV, neither of them were creative or innovative, character classes sucked, all of them took the worst aspects of WoW and try to call themselves "next-gen", other games have stayed relevant to survive and keep subs, FFXI will do it too, regardless of what you want or believe, its what brings in the bacon.

[Afania]

Lineage 2 isn't "next-gen" It was created one year after Final Fantasy XI and WoW, could of taken two seconds to look that up at least, it will be 11 years old this year, and almost everyone from my gaming community who played it 6 years ago( 120+ people) are playing it now, regardless of new mmo's, its stayed current, and its not hard with the crap that's out there to be honest, and yeah it just recently switched to F2P which also boosted numbers, but I mean if I didn't have to pay for FFXI, id come back at least one week every month instead of one year on and off.

But that being said, when a game goes F2P I feel the customer service takes a dive, so the argument of how could a 12 year old MMO compete with a next-gen, easy, there isn't any next-game MMO's, name one? Terra? AION? Rift? FFXIV? All these so called "next-gen" mmo's were complete flops on release, and now are f2p minus FFWoW..I mean FFXIV, neither of them were creative or innovative, character classes sucked, all of them took the worst aspects of WoW and try to call themselves "next-gen", other games have stayed relevant to survive and keep subs, FFXI will do it too, regardless of what you want or believe, its what brings in the bacon.

I said nothing about Lineage2 being "next-gen", only said FFXI can't compete with other next-gen MMO such as ARR/GW2/Rift/SWTOR IF FFXI follow next-gen MMO direction.

I was skeptical about your claim that Lineage2 change game direction and got THAT many sub increase. There must be other factor, such as switching to F2P model, or a relanuch. Usually a drastic game direction change in an established title= game gonna lose sub, not the other way around. Every once a while I heard players complained about how WoW going downhill after going casual friendly direction, and SWG players complained about SWG after it change to WoW direction too. All those titles bleed sub after direction change, by pissing off the existing player base.

Players play FFXI, because it's different from WoW/Rift/ARR/Terra and so on, turning FFXI into those titles= XI gonna die because it can't compete with other similar titles.

[Afania]

It is not the playerbase's job to figure out how to fix the game's problems.

Frankly, everything that came before adoulin should be "dumbed down" more, simply because it adds nothing to the current game and never really did. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain from new players joining and being able to enjoy the relevant content ASAP. The toxic people in this thread that are killing the game with their rose-tinted glasses and contempt for good change (*good* meaning helping FFXI stay online and contributing to an overall more enjoyable game experience) have already had their fun, now it's time to let the younger/newer/fresher players enjoy theirs.

Please just realize that no one can take your past experiences and the fun times you had away from you (short of a concussion, memory loss, or death) nor is anyone trying to. Other people having fun now can not diminish the fun you had in the past, yet so many people in this thread act like a new player having immediate access to relevant content and enjoying himself causes them intense physical pain. On Sylph, it takes VW/AA/SKCNM/Delve groups HOURS to fill up regardless of the time of day. As someone who often organizes groups for things I can't find shouts for, I'd love it if server populations exploded and every new player who got to 99 and took 5 minutes to read an online strategy guide joined my group in Eminence gear and learned through doing the content, i.e. having access when it matters.

Get rid of fame, get rid of roadblocks to zones and events related to missions, get rid of JP midnight waits, get rid of shop times in Norg etc, get rid of antiquated physical roadblocks like Eldieme's/Shrine of Ru'Avitau's, get rid of all minimum person requirements like they did for Meebles/Assault, get rid of the 1 hour wait after getting kicked out of Abyssea, get rid of the inane Chocobo quest that's really just a microcosm of every storyline in the game, get rid of long spawn/respawn times for NMs, get rid of 0.01% drop rates. In short, get rid of everything that sucks about this game and let the good parts shine.

I love this game, and so I empathize with the OP and those arguing on his side. I play this game to fight big bad monsters, get good-looking gear and weapons, and cast spells with impressive animations, and I've been playing on and off since 2004. One of my in-game friends plays to keep his girlfriend company. Another plays because he has always wanted a mythic drg and it hasn't been possible for him until now. There is an infinite number of reasons people can give for playing this game, and all of them are valid as long as they pay the monthly fee and it doesn't affect anyone else negatively. There is so much more to this game than the extremely overrated storylines, so please stop saying that new players like the OP should be forced to go through them. Help this game change for the better and it will last much longer.


The issue wasn't even really mission's cockblocking progress, but OP's attitude toward playing this game isn't healthy IF he wants to keep playing.

Sure, maybe dev can remove CoP/zilart requirement, so every new player no longer bother with sky/story mission and they can jump straight to AA battles. So you face 5 AA out of nowhere, not knowing their background, and not having the emotional attachment toward those 5 bosses, do you think he's gonna have fun? Part of the fun about doing AA is more like "Oh look, it's the AA I fought in 75 era, and now they have zomg awesome empy WS! So bad ass!". Without knowing ANY of the background about AA and empy WS, AA is just another irrelevant boss with no emotional attachment. You simply won't enjoy such fight as much if you haven't finish story.

You said there's nothing to lose by removing story requirement, I don't agree with you. New players lost way more than what they gain if they have no emotional connection behind the game's story and lore.

Mythic is the same, by making the requirement half of what it is, Mythic is no longer mythic. No longer the weapon that take away 1~3 years of your life building it. No longer the "OMG MYTHIC" weapon.

Call it rose-tinted glasses all you want, but the fact is, 90% of fun in FFXI came from emotional attachment and the community, but not awesome game design. I agree that certain aspect of the game should be streamlined. I think having to solo everything to 99 is pretty anti-FFXI, and something should be done about it. CoP too, the issue isn't CoP cockblocking progress, but the lack of CoP party. Personally, I don't see much point to keep playing FFXI if CoP/zilart/rank missions are just skippable storyline that should be watched on youtube. It'd be just a shallow, hollow MMORPG where you kill boss and get loot.

What is FFXI? Prishe, Ark angels, Whitegate, got lost/stuck in open world dungeons, ZOMG 1 YEAR OF RME GRIND, and zomg bad ass relic/empy WS, terrible endgame(on the same time you can't resist to make a SS when finally got the item), your close friends, your BRD and WHM mule, afking in Jeuno or Adoulin, chating with LS 80% of time when logged on........that is what makes FFXI FFXI. FFXI is a life style, everything you do in FFXI, from getting stuck in open world dungeons to terrible endgame is part of it, it is just not a "kill boss and get item then quit after 3 months of playing" type of MMORPG.

[detlef]

It is not the playerbase's job to figure out how to fix the game's problems.No, it's not our job, obviously. I posed that question because I was wondering if there was a solution to allow easier access to locked content while still giving players a reason to complete missions. Nobody seems to have an answer, so I'm not sure it's possible. I think what we have today is pretty close to the common ground, where content is still locked behind missions, but the missions are very easy.


Frankly, everything that came before adoulin should be "dumbed down" more, simply because it adds nothing to the current game and never really did. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain from new players joining and being able to enjoy the relevant content ASAP. The toxic people in this thread that are killing the game with their rose-tinted glasses and contempt for good change (*good* meaning helping FFXI stay online and contributing to an overall more enjoyable game experience) have already had their fun, now it's time to let the younger/newer/fresher players enjoy theirs. Tell me how things can be dumbed down more. Are you talking about missions? They're already dumbed down. The only way they could really be improved would be to remove mandatory waiting periods, which I support.

Or are you talking about events like Dynamis, Salvage, and the like? That stuff is already soloable so I don't know what you'd suggest.


Get rid of fame, get rid of roadblocks to zones and events related to missions, get rid of JP midnight waits, get rid of shop times in Norg etc, get rid of antiquated physical roadblocks like Eldieme's/Shrine of Ru'Avitau's, get rid of all minimum person requirements like they did for Meebles/Assault, get rid of the 1 hour wait after getting kicked out of Abyssea, get rid of the inane Chocobo quest that's really just a microcosm of every storyline in the game, get rid of long spawn/respawn times for NMs, get rid of 0.01% drop rates. In short, get rid of everything that sucks about this game and let the good parts shine.Sure, get rid of all of that. Except the mission requirements. That's not going away whether you like it or not. SE didn't spend hundreds of man hours on those story lines and cut scenes to make them utterly skippable. Like I said, making the missions as easy as they are today is already a compromise. All that other stuff you listed? Sure, change it all. It'll make the game better. But you know, nobody was arguing against any of that stuff so I don't know why you brought it up.


I love this game, and so I empathize with the OP and those arguing on his side. I play this game to fight big bad monsters, get good-looking gear and weapons, and cast spells with impressive animations, and I've been playing on and off since 2004. One of my in-game friends plays to keep his girlfriend company. Another plays because he has always wanted a mythic drg and it hasn't been possible for him until now. There is an infinite number of reasons people can give for playing this game, and all of them are valid as long as they pay the monthly fee and it doesn't affect anyone else negatively. There is so much more to this game than the extremely overrated storylines, so please stop saying that new players like the OP should be forced to go through them. Help this game change for the better and it will last much longer.That's good. You and your friends have multiple reasons for playing the game. You can play for fun, you can play casually and shoot for instant gratification. You can use the game to as a social tool and play just to interact and have fun with others. You can shoot for the best gear in the game by setting long term goals and slowly work your way toward completion. It's all good.

The issue I and others have is when people decide they want to have their cake and eat it too. That is, they want the best gear in the game but they don't want to put the effort into it. Case in point, the OP wants a Nirvana but thinks the Mythic quest is impossible. Rather than accept that he can't have the best weapon in the game without working for it, he is complaining that the quest is impossible. Well, your friend the DRG wants to make one and sees that it is very possible to do as a long term goal. The quest can be completed, although it's not always fun to do. But it's also absolutely, unconditionally optional. There's still 99.9% of the game for players who don't think the quest is worth the time. But some people derive satisfaction from the quest. This doesn't mean they are crazy, it just means that they have a different outlook from the OP.

Also, I agree the story lines are overrated (except for WotG), but then again I never advocated doing missions for the story line. In fact, I think we agree on almost all of your points.

[Feary]

this is the sad state of most MMO's on their way out, all that's left is the grumpy, impatient, basement dweller elitist who look down on everyone else with their 1200 day play time, so being new you have to deal with these _____. They are just mad that now all their time and effort is worth a little less now that a kid playing one month can get as far as they did in that 10 years, I'd be mad, but hey its a game, get over it. I mean if you can't be patient and respectful of new comers, your a contributing factor to your games low population, just my cents.

sorry you got treated the way you did in-game and on this forum, people forget where they come from when they can't see it from their pedestal.

thats very presumptuous. we have a different perspective based on experience. It does not mean we are bitter nor that we look down on the newer playerbase. its often 2 self righteous people who dont know how to communicate to each other on the really issues and respect each other opinion. most situation or opinions are best off some bad experience with someone and because somenoe has a similar belief it associated with that situation and emotion. if anything you are the one who seems the grumpy, impatient, a self righteous. ironically.

statements like this " impatient, basement dweller elitist who look down on everyone else with their 1200 day play time" proves that.

any person who plays any game (especially this game not just genre) and regrets their time is ignorant.

we were new the this game at some points and wish for something to be different. i havent forgot that feeling and i make sure to include that in my advise. You can agree with it or not. usually the difference is you are only advocating for you own experience and not looking at the bigger picture.

again

sorry you got treated the way you did in-game and on this forum, people forget where they come from when they can't see it from their pedestal.

[Afania]

this is the sad state of most MMO's on their way out, all that's left is the grumpy, impatient, basement dweller elitist who look down on everyone else with their 1200 day play time, so being new you have to deal with these _____. They are just mad that now all their time and effort is worth a little less now that a kid playing one month can get as far as they did in that 10 years, I'd be mad, but hey its a game, get over it. I mean if you can't be patient and respectful of new comers, your a contributing factor to your games low population, just my cents.

sorry you got treated the way you did in-game and on this forum, people forget where they come from when they can't see it from their pedestal.


I almost want to lol@ your statment. I really don't see ANYONE in this thread "look down on everyone else with their 1200 days playtime". I have around 366 days of playtime, I liked my past 366 days of FFXI experience, so I defended for it because I don't like game direction change. I don't think I've ever use any "you suck, you're lazy" when defending for my opinion either. There are specific aspect in FFXI that I enjoyed, such as long term goal. But I never go "if you don't do long term goal you're lazy/suck" or anything like that, I even encourage ppl not to do long term goal lol.

I explained why I disgree with OP's opinion several times, with reasons.

On the other hand, there are several post that subtly hinted that I'm an "no-lifer elitist" just because I defended for FFXI direction and long term goals.

I think it's more like you(and OP) doesn't like my opinion, so you feel the urge to use such a negative label so your opinion is more legit. That doesn't mean you'd change my opinion though. If you want to convince me why instant gratification is better game direction, tell me why.

[Feary]

Since you're blaming everything on what I said in another topic, so I'll reply.



I don't see much "negativity" by telling you to quit. It's a suggestion, you don't enjoy this game, so this game is simply not for you. I want new players that enjoys FFXI to play this game, but I don't want new players that doesn't like this game to play this game.


If you're going to view FFXI's using current-gen MMORPG formula, then yes it's work. If you don't want to play a game that feel like work, then don't play it. But there ARE ppl out there wants to play a game like 2nd life/work. It's the same reason why I don't enjoy Dark Souls because I hate dying over and over and walk all the way back to boss battle again, but some people enjoy it. Should I pop on a forum tell them to fix it? No, I simply just accept the fact that Dark Souls isn't for me and walk away.

I don't agree with FFXI should be super casual friendly in everything just because majority of players wants casual MMO. By number, casual market in gaming industry is always bigger, regardless of the genre. But that doesn't mean a 12 year old MMO that've been hardcore should change it's game direction by ditching it's old royal players. FFXI isn't going to get many new players because the UI/mechanic/graphic was subpar, it's first priority is to keep the old players by offering service they liked for past 12 years. If FFXI goes casual, it'll only piss off majority of old players AND it's not going to get that many new players anyways.

I think a lot of your "this isn't fun, this feel like work, why everything takes so long" attitude simply won't work in FFXI. Plenty of players play FFXI but not another MMO because of what FFXI is. I agree that pre-lv 99 FFXI is not as fun as how it used to be, due to the lack of player to pt with, and CoP nerf completely killed the sense of accomplishment of CoP. I agree that something should be done to fix it. But I don't agree with your opinion on Mythic, and I still don't understand why you'd worry about Mythic takes forever when you still haven't finish majority of content. Back when I decided to do a Mythic, I started it because I want to play this game for 5+ years, not because I want to finish the best weapon after a few months.

I've played quite a lot of MMORPG in my life, none of them last for longer than 2 months. FFXI is the only MMO last longer than 4 years, I played it daily and it's one game that changed my life. To me, this game is more than just a video game, but a 2nd life. I purposely choose to play this MMO, instead of GW2/WoW/SWTOR/FFXIV(none of the above title last longer than 2 months for me) and so on, because I want a 2nd life MMO but not "play for fun" MMO. If I want a "play for fun" MMO, I can always just reactivate my account in other titles.

As for the community, if your attitude is "I can't/don't know how to do this, please help me", I'm 100% sure plenty of players are willing to help. I've helped a lot of newer players back in the past, let new/returning players leech delve wins, give plenty of suggestions about how to gear jobs using my own time. And I've received a lot of help in noobie era too.

But if your attitude is "I don't like how this works, please change it.....wait you like how this works? NOSTALGIA GOOGLES!" Then obviously other people won't be happy. It's not the community is rude, it's you pop on a forum, wanting the game to change to something else. Criticizing certain aspect of this game using your own standard, then criticize anyone that disagree with your opinion.

How'd you feel if I criticize GW2 for the lack of holy trinity, or criticize SWTOR for being story focused, or criticize daoc and warhammer for being PVP focused?

Everything takes forever to do in FFXI, on the same time it feels nice to finally finish doing what you were doing in FFXI, has been the main appeal of FFXI for those who've been playing for years. I don't play GW2 if I want holy trinity, and IMO, FFXI simply isn't for you if you don't want to spend 3 years doing tons of boring stuff in a game. The way you view FFXI, by the time you really get every goal done, CoP done, lv 99 done, all AF 119 done, you still won't feel satisfied because all the higher lv content isn't any different from grinding CoP and mythic and so on, it still take forever, it still feels like work. All the endgame content in this game is still based on "living another life in a MMO". You're having unrealistic expectation toward this game and just wanted it to be something else. Even if everything is "fixed", you still won't have fun because your POV toward this game.

When I just started, I had the same opinion toward MMORPG too, game should be fun but not like life/work. So other FFXI players suggested me to quit. I didn't quit in the end, and there were time that I felt frustrated about this game too. But in the end, I received plenty of help from others and managed to complete majority of the goal in this game, now it's on the list of my favorite video game of all time...at least pre-SoA FFXI was. I changed my POV toward "game shouldn't feel like life/work", because the emotional attachment and sense of accomplishment is greater when the game is more than just a game.

FFXI is just different from other MMO, you either accept it's different and aiming for a niche market, or save $12 a month. Chang your attitude toward this game, play FFXI for the sake of living in the world of FFXI, not get the best gear and beat the most epic boss. Or else you'll never enjoy this game no matter what.


althought, i do think you are being a bit harsh on crevox and that some of the other ppl in this thread deserves it. i think think this is a job or second life. i can agree that we want and can appreciate the more long term goals this use to offer vs this lol casual and lol super casual the already nerf casual play. long term goals that set it apart from all other game in the genre. i do understand and agree with your perspective. so thank you because i sure was not going to type that. bookmarked

edit. damn you fixed my answer while i was typing lol yeah long term goals!

[Afania]

althought i do think you arebing a bit harsh on crevox and that i think think this is a job or second life. i do understand and agrewe ith your perspective. so thank you because i sure was not going to type that. bookmarked

Actually Crevox is 10x more harsh than me....he down right called me out when I stated my POV toward MMORPG. But I never call him out for his opinion toward MMORPG. I don't even label him anything, only been stating my opinion toward what FFXI is. I honestly don't understand what's so harsh about it. I've heard something 100 times worse when I was a noob, lol.

[L0IRE]

I almost want to lol@ your statment. I really don't see ANYONE in this thread "look down on everyone else with their 1200 days playtime". I have around 366 days of playtime, I liked my past 366 days of FFXI experience, so I defended for it because I don't like game direction change. I don't think I've ever use any "you suck, you're lazy" when defending for my opinion either. There are specific aspect in FFXI that I enjoyed, such as long term goal. But I never go "if you don't do long term goal you're lazy/suck" or anything like that, I even encourage ppl not to do long term goal lol.

I explained why I disgree with OP's opinion several times, with reasons.

On the other hand, there are several post that subtly hinted that I'm an "no-lifer elitist" just because I defended for FFXI direction and long term goals.

I think it's more like you(and OP) doesn't like my opinion, so you feel the urge to use such a negative label so your opinion is more legit. That doesn't mean you'd change my opinion though. If you want to convince me why instant gratification is better game direction, tell me why.

Ive played the game for 5 years, seen people do this in every dying game, boo hoo theres new people who cant party properly, and you think cause your 1 of the few people who have the patients for them that my opinion isn't legit, everyones had their own experiences, I share mine, you share yours, so what if mine are negative, who are you to say that my experiences aren't legit.


thats very presumptuous. we have a different perspective based on experience. It does not mean we are bitter nor that we look down on the newer playerbase. its often 2 self righteous people who dont know how to communicate to each other on the really issues and respect each other opinion. most situation or opinions are best off some bad experience with someone and because somenoe has a similar belief it associated with that situation and emotion. if anything you are the one who seems the grumpy, impatient, a self righteous. ironically.

statements like this " impatient, basement dweller elitist who look down on everyone else with their 1200 day play time" proves that.

any person who plays any game (especially this game not just genre) and regrets their time is ignorant.

we were new the this game at some points and wish for something to be different. i havent forgot that feeling and i make sure to include that in my advise. You can agree with it or not. usually the difference is you are only advocating for you own experience and not looking at the bigger picture.

again

sorry you got treated the way you did in-game and on this forum, people forget where they come from when they can't see it from their pedestal.



sorry you got treated the way you did in-game and on this forum, people forget where they come from when they can't see it from their pedestal. hows the weather up there bud?


if anything you are the one who seems the grumpy, impatient, a self righteous. ironically.

so if this is true, then your a hypocrite? Basically just turned what I said on myself, doing the same for which you are blaming me, minus the fact I never directed this statement to you or any other indirect user.

I'm actually pretty chill guy, as I said before, I spend most my time helping when I can, people help me, so I give back, but for everyone 1 person who helped me there was 100 trying to put me down and get me to "go back to WoW", so as my statement was generalized and not in direct connection to anyone person, and regretting time isn't ignorant, its apparent, to admit your time could of been better spent is ignorance? Please Sir look up the word "Admittance" and "Ignorance" in the dictionary.

[L0IRE]

I said nothing about Lineage2 being "next-gen", only said FFXI can't compete with other next-gen MMO such as ARR/GW2/Rift/SWTOR IF FFXI follow next-gen MMO direction.

I was skeptical about your claim that Lineage2 change game direction and got THAT many sub increase. There must be other factor, such as switching to F2P model, or a relanuch. Usually a drastic game direction change in an established title= game gonna lose sub, not the other way around. Every once a while I heard players complained about how WoW going downhill after going casual friendly direction, and SWG players complained about SWG after it change to WoW direction too. All those titles bleed sub after direction change, by pissing off the existing player base.

Players play FFXI, because it's different from WoW/Rift/ARR/Terra and so on, turning FFXI into those titles= XI gonna die because it can't compete with other similar titles.

maybe you should collect an opinion for yourself instead of going off what you "heard", you haven't played Lineage though you make assumptions, play those games, come back, and have a valid point, I understand you believe your precious FFXI isn't going to change, but it already has, and it will keep changing to keep the subs, it will get easier and easier, cater to those 1 hour a week casual gamers. It's happened to them all, and with TRUST and Level sync you really still think it hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure that Square values your opinion, but I don't think "not competing" is in their business model...

[Camiie]

Aside from that, you just dodged the question. You provided no solution to the problem of how to handle events locked behind missions and quests. Again, would you remove the prerequisites? Or would you dumb them down? Or are you proposing that the best weapons and gear in the game be as easy to get as Eminent weapons?

The quests and missions have to be able to be realistically completed by someone at the level which they were intended to be completed. That has to take into account player populations. If the reality is that someone will be highly unlikely to find assistance with a goal that currently requires assistance then the path to that goal needs to be adjusted. That doesn't mean that there should be no risk of failure, but there must always be a realistic path to success.

Now before someone jumps on me, I'm stating a general philosophy. I'm not here to debate whether or not any particular content meets that standard.

[Afania]

maybe you should collect an opinion for yourself instead of going off what you "heard", you haven't played Lineage though you make assumptions, play those games, come back, and have a valid point, I understand you believe your precious FFXI isn't going to change, but it already has, and it will keep changing to keep the subs, it will get easier and easier, cater to those 1 hour a week casual gamers. It's happened to them all, and with TRUST and Level sync you really still think it hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure that Square values your opinion, but I don't think "not competing" is in their business model...

Since you're the one making the statment, how about you give me supporting data to prove your assumption is right? My assumption is made by past data, AND you agree about F2P model yourself.

Also, you can't accurately analyze why sub increase by just playing the game. Just because the game change toward a direction you like, doesn't mean it's the main factor of sub increase. Like how majority of player probably liked recent FFXI solo change, but that doesn't mean they can make the conclusion of FFXI being solo friendly = main reason why sub increase.

Also, I'm not against every change that cater to 1hr a week gamers(although I highly doubt there's a point to keep sub on if you play 1hr a week), I'm only against killing every long term goal in this game, because I find long term goal the only reason why I play this game for more than 2 months. I said nothing about trust/lv sync and so on. I'm only against gear comes too fast AND having to toss it just as fast like SoA FFXI. And there's a reason behind it, that's more than being elitist.

[Afania]

Ive played the game for 5 years, seen people do this in every dying game, boo hoo theres new people who cant party properly, and you think cause your 1 of the few people who have the patients for them that my opinion isn't legit, everyones had their own experiences, I share mine, you share yours, so what if mine are negative, who are you to say that my experiences aren't legit.


When you often pull out assumptions out of your asses and label anyone who disagree with your opinion, it won't convince anyone. Out of entire thread that defended for OP's opinion, only what Camiie said made sense. I see flaw in logic and blind "if you're against game heading toward instant gratification direction, you're an elitist" assumption in pretty much every other reply that defended for OP's POV.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

So you face 5 AA out of nowhere, not knowing their background, and not having the emotional attachment toward those 5 bosses, do you think he's gonna have fun?

Supposedly people enjoy doing Seal/Crest/Empty/IS/ANNM's in spite of those having no lore beyond a "clever" name for the battlefield. What's the lore behind Fe'e?

[Afania]

Supposedly people enjoy doing Seal/Crest/Empty/IS/ANNM's in spite of those having no lore beyond a "clever" name for the battlefield. What's the lore behind Fe'e?

Seal/crest/empty/IS/ANNM isn't as interesting as AA battles, IMO. But it's not because of the game mechanics, but the emotional attachment behind it. I don't even remember the name of the NMs in seal/crest/empty/IS/ANNM at all.

Obviously, if you play the game only for mechanics, you may disagree with me. I don't, there are certain battles in this game gave me stronger impression than others because of the story behind it.

Again, I don't MIND if new players skip storyline completely, but I think half of the content won't be as enjoyable without actually going through it. I also disagree with skip story for the sake of getting access to endgame faster, there's just no point to skip it, as endgame is more "work" than story. The only reason to skip it is probably same as what Camiie said, to pt with others instead of solo play. If someone want to skip story because it's too much "work", fat chances are he probably won't enjoy the entire game because this game IS slow, and it's intended to.

[Afania]

I understand you believe your precious FFXI isn't going to change, but it already has, and it will keep changing to keep the subs, it will get easier and easier, cater to those 1 hour a week casual gamers. It's happened to them all, and with TRUST and Level sync you really still think it hasn't happened yet.


Since you're so eager to label other people as a stubborn elitist, I'll set this straight. I'm not against every change in FFXI. I'm not against level sync/trust. The only minor issue I have with trust is ppl are less likely to pt with others, but that has nothing to do with being elitist. I'm against delve adjustment to 6 person too, but again, that's mainly because ppl are more likely to play with mules and less likely to play with LS/friends/random. I'm also against every gear turn into short term goal, I'd like maybe 10%~20% of gear are long term goal and never get outdated, so when I got a gear I can go "FINALLY got!" instead of "Ok, got it, now let's toss it next update". I'm fine with 80% of gear being short term goal(easy to get, toss it next update) as long as long term goal gear exists.

I don't like current WKR, most friends are not interested in doing an organized run, and PUG needs 3+ hr to kill it. I also don't like the fact that I have to spam enter key for 30 min before doing AA and complained about it on forum, and back at pre-SoA era I've complained about legion DD job balance too. I don't just mindlessly like everything in FFXI.

Everyone more or less have their opinion, and what kind of direction they like. The point is, game being hardcore or casual really isn't black or white, that you must kill 1 group of player to please another. I liked the idea of Mythic and years of work to obtain a weapon, that doesn't mean I don't agree with 2nd best alternatives being only 0.5% behind. I'm not ok with RME obtainable by majority or RME behind easier to obtain alternatives though. I really don't see what's wrong with having the best weapon only obtainable by minority, IF the majority isn't too far behind. It'd please both hardcore and casual. IMO, that's better change than mindlessly hand every player same level of gear, or have hardcore work harder for inferior gears.

I'm not sure why you insist that whoever are against OP's opinion are subborn elitist that doesn't like change, tbh.

[Anjou]

I got my Amir Korazin, outdated but damn does it feel nice to have it done

[detlef]

The quests and missions have to be able to be realistically completed by someone at the level which they were intended to be completed. That has to take into account player populations. If the reality is that someone will be highly unlikely to find assistance with a goal that currently requires assistance then the path to that goal needs to be adjusted. That doesn't mean that there should be no risk of failure, but there must always be a realistic path to success.

Now before someone jumps on me, I'm stating a general philosophy. I'm not here to debate whether or not any particular content meets that standard.All I'm going to say is that it's really tough to adjust for that. Too easy and people will complain that they are tedious and unfun. Set them too hard and people will complain that they can't find help for them. I think the first option is preferable, since in that scenario the missions will actually get done.

Again, I don't think it's even remotely realistic to expect SE to remove gated content, so the next best thing is for SE to make the prerequisite content easy.

[Damane]

maybe you should collect an opinion for yourself instead of going off what you "heard", you haven't played Lineage though you make assumptions, play those games, come back, and have a valid point, I understand you believe your precious FFXI isn't going to change, but it already has, and it will keep changing to keep the subs, it will get easier and easier, cater to those 1 hour a week casual gamers. It's happened to them all, and with TRUST and Level sync you really still think it hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure that Square values your opinion, but I don't think "not competing" is in their business model...

In Defense of Afania, He/She never claimed that He/she played Lineage 2, infact Afania WROTE that He/She never played Lineage 2. And on another note Afania is just stating his opinion/impression of the current FFXI.

Now you on the other hand seem to assume that every person that does not agree with you is some kind of an elitist *insert insult here*.

I/We, the community, are not against changes in FFXI, infact most people embrassed alot of changes (ecxept the dumb ones), we dont however want another WoW/FFXIV game. If we WANTED that we would go play those games... Why destroy the variety of the genre. If FFXI isnt your type of game, then dont play it, its simple as that. FFXIV and WoW werent my type of game, i tried both, didnt like them, stoped playing them. Its that simple. I even tried Aion and Lineage II each for 2 months, albeit both as grindy as FFXI, they just werent my type of game because of the lore/race/playstyle. Each to his own, stop trying to enforce somethign onto a game which is doing fine as it is.

The people that play FFXI now, play it for a reason, they like how FFXI is.

[L0IRE]

When you often pull out assumptions out of your asses and label anyone who disagree with your opinion, it won't convince anyone. Out of entire thread that defended for OP's opinion, only what Camiie said made sense. I see flaw in logic and blind "if you're against game heading toward instant gratification direction, you're an elitist" assumption in pretty much every other reply that defended for OP's POV.

Keep trying you'll get there, "assumptions", you need to take some of your own advice, and for Lineage 2 and its F2P model, if you "read", yes "read", I said it just recently went
F2P, and no it didn't do a complete remodel, like I said go read for yourself in the last message before you respond, you just keep making your "assumpmtions as you say, and cant take two seconds to go look it up, you said show me "data", stop being so damn lazy and look it up yourself, I'm not your mommy.

[L0IRE]

In Defense of Afania, He/She never claimed that He/she played Lineage 2, infact Afania WROTE that He/She never played Lineage 2. And on another note Afania is just stating his opinion/impression of the current FFXI.

Now you on the other hand seem to assume that every person that does not agree with you is some kind of an elitist *insert insult here*.

I/We, the community, are not against changes in FFXI, infact most people embrassed alot of changes (ecxept the dumb ones), we dont however want another WoW/FFXIV game. If we WANTED that we would go play those games... Why destroy the variety of the genre. If FFXI isnt your type of game, then dont play it, its simple as that. FFXIV and WoW werent my type of game, i tried both, didnt like them, stoped playing them. Its that simple. I even tried Aion and Lineage II each for 2 months, albeit both as grindy as FFXI, they just werent my type of game because of the lore/race/playstyle. Each to his own, stop trying to enforce somethign onto a game which is doing fine as it is.

The people that play FFXI now, play it for a reason, they like how FFXI is.

Now your doing the same thing, don't speak for the entire FFXI community, I don't care if people don't agree with me, its the state of the game, and people just don't want to admit it, and they think their precious FFXI is different from WoW and other P2P models, and as for "forcing" something onto this game, its already happening, open your eyes, your as bad as Afania, like I said, been playing the game for years, love the game, but how can one player force something on a game, the game is catering towards the casual, get over it, its happened, its not my opinion, its how it is.

[Damane]

Now your doing the same thing, don't speak for the entire FFXI community, I don't care if people don't agree with me, its the state of the game, and people just don't want to admit it, and they think their precious FFXI is different from WoW and other P2P models, and as for "forcing" something onto this game, its already happening, open your eyes, your as bad as Afania, like I said, been playing the game for years, love the game, but how can one player force something on a game, the game is catering towards the casual, get over it, its happened, its not my opinion, its how it is.

I am not doing anything to you, I am just stating the opinion of myself and some friends. And as I said I welcome most changes to FFXI, the changes we had were good in most cases, not bad. Stop trying to read something into my lines. And as I said again, if you dont like how FFXI currently is, stop playing it and play somethign different, just like I will stop playing FFXI if it doesnt suit me anymore. But stop trying to force something onto a game/people.

[Xantavia]

I'm not saying this because I think you're being arrogant or something, but I think it would be a great idea if you did that in the name of science. Level a new character, don't tell your friends what his or her name is, try to get to 99 and to clear all the stuff needed to participate in the SoA endgame. It'll be interesting to see how it goes. I'd do it myself, but I think I have more catching up to do than you.
I think this is where there is a huge disconnect between player viewpoints. For some it is all about getting to endgame content ASAP. Others see that there is a lot to do on the way there and don't mind if it takes 6+ months to complete it. I prefer the long view myself and that is what keeps me playing.

[Afania]

Keep trying you'll get there, "assumptions", you need to take some of your own advice, and for Lineage 2 and its F2P model, if you "read", yes "read", I said it just recently went
F2P, and no it didn't do a complete remodel, like I said go read for yourself in the last message before you respond, you just keep making your "assumpmtions as you say, and cant take two seconds to go look it up, you said show me "data", stop being so damn lazy and look it up yourself, I'm not your mommy.

Wow, first you jump to conclusions with zero support data, then when someone else skeptical about your assumptions you still refuse to provide support data, whoever want to jump into conclusion first should provide data no? Or else why should I believe what you said, lol.

But fine, if you can't provide data, I'll google for you.


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/642x394q90/35/4omm.JPG

Source:MMO data.net.

You claimed the game was dead and suddenly revived after 1 update before F2P, but I see no sub spike before F2P, except 2005, which seems more like a natural sub increase after global launch, less like a drastic sub increase because of game direction change. Since China/JP launch date is 2004. There are no data after 2009, because it went F2P in China in 2009(seems to be 2011 in the US). But I fail to see how there's a drastic sub number increase after 2009 either, by logic the game wouldn't go F2P if there's a sub increase.

Anyways, you want data because you can't support your own argument, I find you data. I see zero indication that Lineage2 ever get a sub increase because of game direction change, only time it ever get sub increase was when it launched in other regions such as China/JP around 2004~2005. Unless you can support your argument with with any other data, I think you just pull your assumption out of nowhere.

And no, I don't accept argument such as "you haven't play the game, you haven't seen server full of people after certain update, ZOMG GO GOOGLE MORE", sorry. MMORPG change game direction without a relaunch=not going to get more subs, fact. FFXI never get a sub increase after direction change in Abyssea/SoA either.

[Afania]

Now your doing the same thing, don't speak for the entire FFXI community, I don't care if people don't agree with me, its the state of the game, and people just don't want to admit it, and they think their precious FFXI is different from WoW and other P2P models, and as for "forcing" something onto this game, its already happening, open your eyes, your as bad as Afania, like I said, been playing the game for years, love the game, but how can one player force something on a game, the game is catering towards the casual, get over it, its happened, its not my opinion, its how it is.


Except nobody is being "denial" about FFXI changing in entire thread. I said I'd like certain aspect of FFXI stay the same, that doesn't mean I pretend FFXI isn't changing.

Also not sure why are you stating the obvious if it's "not your opinion".

First you call "elitist with 1200 hr of playtime" look down toward everyone else, even though nobody in this entire discussion was being elitist, then pulled "lineage2 got sub increase after game direction change" conclusion out of nowhere with zero support data, then you said you're just stating fact, not opinion, when obviously everyone are aware of the fact that FFXI changed, then you said don't care if people disagree with your opinion.....so why are you even posting if you have no point to prove? lol

Missing the point in every post, at it's finest.

[L0IRE]

Except nobody is being "denial" about FFXI changing in entire thread. I said I'd like certain aspect of FFXI stay the same, that doesn't mean I pretend FFXI isn't changing.

Also not sure why are you stating the obvious if it's "not your opinion".

First you call "elitist with 1200 hr of playtime" look down toward everyone else, even though nobody in this entire discussion was being elitist, then pulled "lineage2 got sub increase after game direction change" conclusion out of nowhere with zero support data, then you said you're just stating fact, not opinion, when obviously everyone are aware of the fact that FFXI changed, then you said don't care if people disagree with your opinion.....so why are you even posting if you have no point to prove? lol

Missing the point in every post, at it's finest.

I never said people in this forum were being Elitist, I was referring to how he was treated in-game, if you go back to my first post and read it, stop changing my words to suit your means, you just wanted to get in on the drama half way through a conversation, like I said before, I'm not going to hold your hand to make my point "lineage2 got sub increase after game direction change" conclusion out of nowhere with zero support data" go look for yourself, you just keep coming back to that cause your too lazy to go look for yourself, I could care less if you get the point, don't need to sit here all day and argue with children, last post, won't be responding to anymore, and good luck with what ever you were trying to get out of this conversation, the whole thing just basically proved the kids point about the D-bags in this game crying "back in my dad", good for you you grinded back in the day when the game was "good" with no ones else and you never complained...make sure to put that on your resume, PEACE!

[Crevox]

The question becomes: why do people play an MMORPG? For what reason would someone pick up FFXI?

I can guarantee you that the majority of people do not go MMORPG hunting for a good story (and thus, do not enjoy sitting there doing missions all day). The story is a nice thing to have, but people do not find FFXI and go "wow, this game looks like it has a good story, I'm gonna try this MMORPG." People play for a variety of reasons, the biggest probably is to play with friends.

Personally, I play them for the gameplay. The combat. The leveling. The character growth. All of that, put in a multiplayer setting against enemies, and you can have a fun time. That's not to say I don't enjoy the story though; I do. However, I more so enjoy playing with my friends and other people as a player of a massively multiplayer online role playing game. This game actually does a great job of all of this, however, it's starting to make it much harder for you to feel it and get there, mostly due to all the requirements.

For someone like me, I do not enjoy doing nonstop fetch quests; especially when they hold absolutely no difficulty, and they take an extraordinary amount of time, often for no real reason. It is a large time dump. Chains of Promathia was a major offender here. The majority of the quests involve absolutely no combat, and when they do involve combat, it lasts for about 10 seconds and then it's back to running somewhere again. Yes, that's because it's easy now, but either way, it's still boring, especially alone. At some point, I would've loved to go and do it just to see the story, yeah, sure. The problem is that I don't have a choice. I have to do all of this stuff (Zilart, Promathia, Aht Urhgan) for various reasons just to be able to do the content everyone else is doing. And NONE of those 3 things involve me playing with friends or anyone else. Going through Promathia with a friend is not an interesting experience; it's just you both doing it at the same time, no different than you both playing the same single player game across the room from each other.

Why does a "rush to end game" exist? Because I want to play with people. I want to party up, and fight powerful foes, and reap rewards for it. I want to work together with my friends and other people to secure a victory. I want to work towards the same goals as them, and by working together, achieve it. If you look at the things I've done in the past month, that never happened. The closest thing you could say was an EXP party, which I did enjoy. Leveling up was fun. And, you know, with it being the thing you do in MMORPGs, that fits just fine. Being forced to go and do years of old content (which the majority of it is just travel and following some guide telling you where to go) is not fun. It's a chore. Not just a chore, a time-gated chore (you can't keep doing this, gotta wait for Japanese midnight). On an off-topic note, this is pretty much my biggest problem with my Mythic weapon being the best weapon in the game for SMN: the best weapon in the game is achieved solo by grinding for months through time gated content.

So, what did I do in order to reach that scenario? To able to party up with people and play with them? I did what I had to. I researched a lot on what I had to do. I did all the long, arduous requirements. I went around the world and finished all the sidequests I needed to do. I gathered gear from tons of old content, solo, in order to get my character in tip-top shape. I went to obscure locales for items that serve absolutely no relevance to my friends. They certainly have no reason to take that journey with me; they get nothing out of it, and I don't need help with it, it just takes time. And now, finally, after a month, I feel that I am in a state (not an optimal state, but good enough) that I am ready to present myself and fight alongside others. However, I still have not finished Zilart (so I cannot do AA) and I have to work on 20+ days of coalition in order to do Wildskeeper Reives. Beyond that, it's difficult to find a party for anything, let alone a party that will accept me for what I am. Even IF I could find a party, there's still no guarantee I even know what I should even be partying for, especially with all the acronyms used in game.

Then, of course, there's that aura of uncertainty. After this month of playing, what do you think my experience level (not actual character exp, I'm referring to the concept) with partying is? How often did I party up with others and practice playing my class (hint: it's very minimal)? Am I really ready to fight something that's going to be challenging? What do people expect of me? Am I going to screw it up? Am I geared enough? Do I know the mechanics of the encounter, is there something I need to know? Are they going to even accept me if I tell them it's my first time? There is a LOT to understand when it comes to doing these things; and people are not going to assume you don't know, or ask if you don't. They often times just won't tolerate you if you don't.

And that's the other thing: nothing is really explained in this game. I don't think people on this forum understand what it's like to not know anything about the game. In order to learn, someone has to teach you, or you have to read and try to understand the guides online (note: this will take hours due to the amount you have to try to grasp); and even then, they don't teach you everything, especially when it comes to common community ideals and how they do things. Getting into my first Abyssea party was actually difficult. I had no idea what I was doing; what are lights? What is cruor? Where do I go? Should I use this traverser stone thing? What if I screw up and run out of time? Am I going to get more time? I asked multiple party leaders to invite me, telling them it's my first time, and they ignored me. They can't be bothered to explain how it all works, and that was only after I somehow figured out that I should go to the Abyssea in La Theine, and learned that this "Abyssea" thing was actually a good place to EXP after 75. There's no set path of progression in this game, and even now, I am left confused often on what to do. Where should I go next? What should I be doing? These are common questions asked nonstop of new players. What the heck is a Chains of Promathia? Should I bother doing those missions? What will I get out of it? Naturally, often times, they have no one to answer these questions; the game certainly doesn't tell you. The game doesn't even tell you that "this NPC will start the Chains of Promathia story line" so you don't even know what you would be getting yourself into if you listened and did what he wants you to do (see my complaint about the random cutscenes a new player gets for zoning into Jeuno). So what do they do? They go and level up. Leveling up is the clearest, most obvious goal. Apparently, however, this somehow gets classified as "rushing to end game", I guess.

Review all of the above, again, and consider why new players don't stick with the game. Also remember that the community could easily help the situation, however, they're doing the exact opposite, and making things worse.

So now, I began my journey into Adoulin, once again asking these same questions. What is skirmish? Why should I do it? Where are the missions? How many of these coalition assignments should I do? What is bayld for? What's a reive? What should I be doing out here? Why are people fighting the random mobs, is it for exp? Are there quests I should be doing somewhere from some random NPC? What are these weird items I'm getting? Yes, once again: none of it is explained in game. I was able to answer some of those questions by looking at the wikis and stuff, but others, I still have no idea.

Finally, please do stop assuming things of me and everyone else. Not everyone comes into this game expecting "WoW" or to get everything instantly. You need to look at it from a different angle for once.

[Kincard]

I'm going to ignore some of the responses around here because a lot of them are just unnecessarily inflammatory (And being XI's internet defense force isn't going to help the game any).

Pretty cool of you to post this, actually, Crevox. I've played the game since it launched stateside and it's interesting to hear the kinds of frustrations I would expect a newer player might run into. It's true that a lot of the things in the game are convoluted, and I think a lot of it has to do with a revolving door of developers that patchworked the game for over a decade, to the point where there is stuff that is there and serves no real function (the Colosseum in Aht Urhgan was never used, for instance).

The thing is, Seekers of Adoulin was designed almost entirely with people like you in mind. To be blunt, a lot of the things you did weren't necessary at all. I don't think it'd be at all necessary for anyone to do the majority of the old content, because a large amount of it was phased out. Right now, to wear the most up-to-date gear (The reforged artifact armor +1), you need:
-Rem's Chapters 6~10, which can be obtained solo or in an exp group using Records of Eminence
-A crafting material, which can be either obtained through hard mode difficult+ SKCNMs or hard mode Ark Angels
-The original AF
Consider what you need to actually do for that:
-Don't need to do a single mission (You need to be rank 6 + cleared zilart to do Ark Angels, but the hard mode BCs do not require any)
-Don't need to gather any old content outside of your AF (Which is something I think you should do anyway since the storyline for your class is sort of a big deal, it's not asking you to go gather 5 golden goblin ribcages for some obscure old lady)
-Don't really need to grind much old content's gear (take a look at the adoulin and records of eminence gear and you'll understand why, it's all designed specifically to be very easy to get as "starter" gear for new players hoping into the group scene)

In other words, they're trying to design a game in a way so that they can both keep their long-time players and newcomers alike happy. The problem is pointing newcomers in the right direction has not been done very well if your confusion is any indication. If you had done the past events you would certainly have an advantage, but it is not necessary to do endgame, just some of it. I do agree that in the future they should try to add non-mission gated and mission gated content at the same time so people like you don't get left out though.

One unfortunate part is that you chose one of the most newcomer-unfriendly jobs in the entirety of the 22 job system. They should have an official for this somewhere because I would definately list SMN at the bottom of the choices a newcomer should pick. While a few years back they made it easier for you to get the prime avatars at level 20 (They used to require long and difficult level 60 quests that were at the time quite difficult and fame-intensive), they left the difficulty in obtaining ones such as Fenrir, Odin, Alexander and Diabolos because they were supposed to be like quest rewards (think of some of the other FF games where you had to go get "secret" summons or somesuch, it's in the similar vein, except EVERY prime avatar used to be that).

As for Mythic weapon, however, never ever think that that is necessary for your job, I am against alleviating the requirements for it just as much as every other hardcore player, and I know you think that's odd, but the entire point of the legendary weapons was that they're supposed to be rare and powerful long-term project weapons that not everyone has. If you want you can make a joke about epeens or something go ahead, but they made sure to balance the newly-added high level weapons so that they would not be an absolute requirement (in some points in the past they were which caused all sorts of problems, this is not nearly the case anymore).

Anyway there's a lot of stuff I might've missed from your post to respond to since there's quite a bit of it. I agree with you on some points and not so much on others, because I don't believe in removing every last gate there is because lifting those wouldn't be necessary to actually play the game.

[Lithera]

I picked up this game because of the story, to see if this newfangled Final Fantasy would still feel like one even though it was online, because a friend I knew was going to be playing it and because I had played up to that point almost every numbered FF title there was out there at the time.

Again there shouldn't be a rush to get to the end. If you do and then complain about how boring and easy old expansions are that is still on you the player. Only you, not the game, can choose if the four other expansions and add-ons are challenging or not. Trust me when CoP came out and us old timers walked into that part of jeuno most were wtfbbq is going on. Most of us even back then knew random CS normally meant a bad thing. Also with adoulin it has it's own site this is how we learned what all of this was same with abyssea. I'm not sure if the abyssea site is still up or not.

I also have a hard time believing that all new players have the diminished understanding that say a six year old would have and that they don't know how to pop out their inner Sherlock Holmes from time to time. Most expansion CS show or tell you the area to go to. Quests not so much most of the time. If you did do all of this research about smn as you say you did I'm surprised that no where did you run into anything saying they were no longer wanted by the majority of the player base for wildskeeper and delve. Though with the up coming promise of being able to do delve low man maybe it will have a chance to shine. I believe in the if the mob isn't trying to kill the mages then it can't be 100% a bad thing. Anyway you are either going to quit or not so most of this thread will be moot one way or another.

[Demonjustin]

Right now, to wear the most up-to-date gear (The reforged artifact armor +1), you need:
-Rem's Chapters 6~10, which can be obtained solo or in an exp group using Records of Eminence
-A crafting material, which can be either obtained through hard mode difficult+ SKCNMs or hard mode Ark Angels
-The original AF
Consider what you need to actually do for that:
-Don't need to do a single mission (You need to be rank 6 + cleared zilart to do Ark Angels, but the hard mode BCs do not require any)
-Don't need to gather any old content outside of your AF (Which is something I think you should do anyway since the storyline for your class is sort of a big deal, it's not asking you to go gather 5 golden goblin ribcages for some obscure old lady)
-Don't really need to grind much old content's gear (take a look at the adoulin and records of eminence gear and you'll understand why, it's all designed specifically to be very easy to get as "starter" gear for new players hoping into the group scene)I just want to point out this is incorrect Kincard, you have to complete nearly all of the CoP missions in order to get Sea access and you have to have Sea access for Sagheera to talk to you, and you have to have her talk to you in order for you to talk to Monisette who upgrades your AF into RF. So through the chain you do have to complete almost all of CoP which is far from not needing to do a single mission. This was one of the complaints he made in another thread, and one I very much agree with him about not being something that should be required.

[Demonjustin]

Incase you missed it in all of the other posts Crevox, just wanted to say again, if you come to Phoenix you are welcome to join my social LS & there are a lot of people in it both friendly and helpful, we are a bunch of weirdos but were not the bad kind! So if you need a home in this game, and don't mind coming to Phoenix, we can offer you a place. Also I have a money making shell who could use SMNs and does events Sun~Wed @9/10 to 11/12 PM EST if interested in that as well, it would give you a chance to put your SMN to use in a group event while at the same time helping you fund anything you still need gear wise or need moving forward, joining that shell isn't up to me, but I doubt the leader would mind so long as you can follow directions for what we gotta do during the event. Either way, just wanted to throw it up here again incase you missed it and it sounds like something you might want to do. ^_^;

[Kincard]

I just want to point out this is incorrect Kincard, you have to complete nearly all of the CoP missions in order to get Sea access and you have to have Sea access for Sagheera to talk to you, and you have to have her talk to you in order for you to talk to Monisette who upgrades your AF into RF. So through the chain you do have to complete almost all of CoP which is far from not needing to do a single mission. This was one of the complaints he made in another thread, and one I very much agree with him about not being something that should be required.

Actually didn't know that/forgot about her. That's probably something they should change, then.

[Afania]

The question becomes: why do people play an MMORPG? For what reason would someone pick up FFXI?

I can guarantee you that the majority of people do not go MMORPG hunting for a good story (and thus, do not enjoy sitting there doing missions all day). The story is a nice thing to have, but people do not find FFXI and go "wow, this game looks like it has a good story, I'm gonna try this MMORPG." People play for a variety of reasons, the biggest probably is to play with friends.

Personally, I play them for the gameplay. The combat. The leveling. The character growth. All of that, put in a multiplayer setting against enemies, and you can have a fun time. That's not to say I don't enjoy the story though; I do. However, I more so enjoy playing with my friends and other people as a player of a massively multiplayer online role playing game. This game actually does a great job of all of this, however, it's starting to make it much harder for you to feel it and get there, mostly due to all the requirements.

For someone like me, I do not enjoy doing nonstop fetch quests; especially when they hold absolutely no difficulty, and they take an extraordinary amount of time, often for no real reason. It is a large time dump. Chains of Promathia was a major offender here. The majority of the quests involve absolutely no combat, and when they do involve combat, it lasts for about 10 seconds and then it's back to running somewhere again. Yes, that's because it's easy now, but either way, it's still boring, especially alone. At some point, I would've loved to go and do it just to see the story, yeah, sure. The problem is that I don't have a choice. I have to do all of this stuff (Zilart, Promathia, Aht Urhgan) for various reasons just to be able to do the content everyone else is doing. And NONE of those 3 things involve me playing with friends or anyone else. Going through Promathia with a friend is not an interesting experience; it's just you both doing it at the same time, no different than you both playing the same single player game across the room from each other.

Why does a "rush to end game" exist? Because I want to play with people. I want to party up, and fight powerful foes, and reap rewards for it. I want to work together with my friends and other people to secure a victory. I want to work towards the same goals as them, and by working together, achieve it. If you look at the things I've done in the past month, that never happened. The closest thing you could say was an EXP party, which I did enjoy. Leveling up was fun. And, you know, with it being the thing you do in MMORPGs, that fits just fine. Being forced to go and do years of old content (which the majority of it is just travel and following some guide telling you where to go) is not fun. It's a chore. Not just a chore, a time-gated chore (you can't keep doing this, gotta wait for Japanese midnight). On an off-topic note, this is pretty much my biggest problem with my Mythic weapon being the best weapon in the game for SMN: the best weapon in the game is achieved solo by grinding for months through time gated content.

So, what did I do in order to reach that scenario? To able to party up with people and play with them? I did what I had to. I researched a lot on what I had to do. I did all the long, arduous requirements. I went around the world and finished all the sidequests I needed to do. I gathered gear from tons of old content, solo, in order to get my character in tip-top shape. I went to obscure locales for items that serve absolutely no relevance to my friends. They certainly have no reason to take that journey with me; they get nothing out of it, and I don't need help with it, it just takes time. And now, finally, after a month, I feel that I am in a state (not an optimal state, but good enough) that I am ready to present myself and fight alongside others. However, I still have not finished Zilart (so I cannot do AA) and I have to work on 20+ days of coalition in order to do Wildskeeper Reives. Beyond that, it's difficult to find a party for anything, let alone a party that will accept me for what I am. Even IF I could find a party, there's still no guarantee I even know what I should even be partying for, especially with all the acronyms used in game.

Then, of course, there's that aura of uncertainty. After this month of playing, what do you think my experience level (not actual character exp, I'm referring to the concept) with partying is? How often did I party up with others and practice playing my class (hint: it's very minimal)? Am I really ready to fight something that's going to be challenging? What do people expect of me? Am I going to screw it up? Am I geared enough? Do I know the mechanics of the encounter, is there something I need to know? Are they going to even accept me if I tell them it's my first time? There is a LOT to understand when it comes to doing these things; and people are not going to assume you don't know, or ask if you don't. They often times just won't tolerate you if you don't.

And that's the other thing: nothing is really explained in this game. I don't think people on this forum understand what it's like to not know anything about the game. In order to learn, someone has to teach you, or you have to read and try to understand the guides online (note: this will take hours due to the amount you have to try to grasp); and even then, they don't teach you everything, especially when it comes to common community ideals and how they do things. Getting into my first Abyssea party was actually difficult. I had no idea what I was doing; what are lights? What is cruor? Where do I go? Should I use this traverser stone thing? What if I screw up and run out of time? Am I going to get more time? I asked multiple party leaders to invite me, telling them it's my first time, and they ignored me. They can't be bothered to explain how it all works, and that was only after I somehow figured out that I should go to the Abyssea in La Theine, and learned that this "Abyssea" thing was actually a good place to EXP after 75. There's no set path of progression in this game, and even now, I am left confused often on what to do. Where should I go next? What should I be doing? These are common questions asked nonstop of new players. What the heck is a Chains of Promathia? Should I bother doing those missions? What will I get out of it? Naturally, often times, they have no one to answer these questions; the game certainly doesn't tell you. The game doesn't even tell you that "this NPC will start the Chains of Promathia story line" so you don't even know what you would be getting yourself into if you listened and did what he wants you to do (see my complaint about the random cutscenes a new player gets for zoning into Jeuno). So what do they do? They go and level up. Leveling up is the clearest, most obvious goal. Apparently, however, this somehow gets classified as "rushing to end game", I guess.

Review all of the above, again, and consider why new players don't stick with the game. Also remember that the community could easily help the situation, however, they're doing the exact opposite, and making things worse.

So now, I began my journey into Adoulin, once again asking these same questions. What is skirmish? Why should I do it? Where are the missions? How many of these coalition assignments should I do? What is bayld for? What's a reive? What should I be doing out here? Why are people fighting the random mobs, is it for exp? Are there quests I should be doing somewhere from some random NPC? What are these weird items I'm getting? Yes, once again: none of it is explained in game. I was able to answer some of those questions by looking at the wikis and stuff, but others, I still have no idea.

Finally, please do stop assuming things of me and everyone else. Not everyone comes into this game expecting "WoW" or to get everything instantly. You need to look at it from a different angle for once.

I think the misunderstanding between new player and older player doesn't came from older player being rude/mean toward newer people. If you've post this first and explained your situation and the difficulty you're facing, instead of asking dev to kill the long term goal in this game, AND subtly hinted whoever supports/loves Mythic are no lifers, you would see a lot more positive reply, less negative reply.

Even the most successful old players start as lv1 new player, most of older players knows how the life of new player was, and pretty much faced same thing you've went through, besides minor difference such as longer but better lving experience via 6 man party. But ultimately, FFXI is a community focused MMO, even though it's a lot soloable now, at one point of time you still need to make friend with others, join a LS/static/group for stuff. Especially if you want to play less popular jobs. IMO, everything in FFXI is about interpersonal skills, less about actual skill/gear of a job. I know plenty of very skilled/well geared players that've played for years, still face the same difficulty you're facing now, because they don't value interpersonal skills very much. I sometime face the same difficulty, BUT I've been working on/maintaining my connection in FFXI for years, so it's sometimes easier to solve problems I face in FFXI compare with other players that don't work on connections at all.

Based on last post and your first post, I think one of the issue you have now is, you think you don't get party is because of game design/time gate/slow progress/lack of gear/wrong job/being new, and you're eager to bypass the step for party content. But IMO, the first priority is to build connections and get into existing group/LS. Lack of gear/job/progress is something pretty much everyone will face at one point of time, including older players. I still have friends/ls mate who've played for years can't get into DM due to lack of job/clear. The best way to solve all those issue, is to build better connections. You'll never solve the lack of progress/gear/job issue completely, the most useful skill that stay with a player for the longest time is connection building skills.


Anyways, if you still intend to play, here are some suggestion that'd help you to progress faster:


1. First thing you need to do, get used to send /tell to random strangers. It's a pretty good way to find a LS, get help, get answer. Back then when I just started, I randomly send /tell to other players to help with missions, or ask questions, and found a couple of social LS to join by sending /tell. I sometimes got /tell from other players asking questions too. FFXI players may seem quite, but most of the times, they don't downright refuse other players ask for help/ask questions in /tell. If you /shout in town, sometimes they just ignore it. But if you send /tell, plenty of players would feel "needed", thus are more likely to help.

Be polite though, sometimes they may not help you if they're busy/afk/about to log off. Never be rude/mean/frustrated just because you don't get the positive reply you want, keep trying. Players that are always thankful to others goes a long way, players often floodeded with negative emotion won't go very far.


2. Find a like minded, established social LS. Again, back when I was new, I rely on LS a lot(I got into LSs by sending /tell to random stranger "May I join your LS"). It's easier to get into party content, know what to do with a LS. The game doesn't explain anything, but most of the time a good LS would answer your question.

I'd say have a good LS or bad one would probably determine whether you enjoy this game or not as a new player, at least 90%. Different LS also has different organizational culture. Certain LS are more laidback, more likely to tolerate newer player and their mistakes, and more willing to use less popular jobs like SMN. But they may have higher fail rate or unable to attempt more hardcore content.

Certain LS are more hardcore, only do things in efficent setup, and often critisize gimps/newer players in LS chat. You may have much easier and faster progress in this kind of LS, but you may not feel comfortable in this kind of LS depending on what type of gamer you are.

There are also LS full of solo players, they don't do party content together as a LS, rarely ask "anyone want to do <insert content name>?" in chat, everyone just do their own stuff when they log on. If your goal is to do party content, and you don't want to start your own group, try to avoid this kind of LS too. Or at least get used to start your own group.

It is also better to find LS with members on similar progress as you. You don't want to see entire LS doing something you don't have access to/geared for. That's how you'd be frustrated with timegate stuff because you're eager to catch up. If you find a group/LS that's way ahead of you, try different group. SOMEONE out there has to be not that far ahead. Trust me, they exist, no matter how unlikely it seems with low server pop.

3. Be nice, positive, humble and respectful, all the time, regardless who you're dealing with. There are many different type of player in this game. There are nice elitist, bad elitist, terrible players with shitty attitude, terrible players with good attitude, terrible players think they're elite, no lifers with everything but play terribly, casual players that doesn't take the game seriously, and the list goes on. You may not like everyone, but at one point of time you may need them, and vice versa. No matter they're 1200hr no lifers with 10 mythic and an obsession with mythics, or casual players with shitty gear that doesn't give a fuck about gear swap and fuck up every run, they're all fundamentally, another human being sit in front of the PC. FFXI is a small community, and sometimes it's frustrating to beat party content without connections. You may think I'm not exactly nice to new player, but it's more of a reaction toward no-lifer comment, not because the player is new or belong to different group.

If you find no-lifers running around showing off their accomplishment, don't downright label them as no-lifers wasting their time, keep their accomplishment noted, maybe give them a few compliment IF they're not downright rude toward others. You'd make other players a lot happier while playing this game by giving compliment to others, and in return, they'll be more willing to help you AND make your life happier too. If you run into players always fuck up every run wearing terrible gear play the job like shit, give them time and 2nd chance in the future. You don't necessary have to pt with them again right away, but sometimes give them a little suggestion/help they can do a lot better next time.


=================================

Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.


Other people already answered many specific question you had, but eventually you may face even more frustration and questions. If you followed the above suggestion, it'll help a lot. I don't consider myself master everything in suggestion No.3 either, it takes time, but in the end you will get rewarded for it. You may think a lot of the difficulty you're facing is new player only, but it really isn't. I still ask questions in this game all the time, even after nearly 5 years of playing. I still find myself needing help, and I still find myself unable to catch up with progress, all the time. This is life, this is FFXI.

Anyways, whether you choose to continue or not in the end, gl.

[Siviard]

To the OP

I don't post very often on here, but after reading your initial post, I can tell you what your first and most critical mistake was. You chose to play on Asura server

Asura is known to be the server with the most hardcore players and is not friendly towards newer or casual players. I truly believe that if you had started on a server that had a more laid back attitude and is friendly towards new/returning/casual players, your FFXI experience would have been much more enjoyable.

[bungiefanNA]

To the OP

I don't post very often on here, but after reading your initial post, I can tell you what your first and most critical mistake was. You chose to play on Asura server

Asura is known to be the server with the most hardcore players and is not friendly towards newer or casual players. I truly believe that if you had started on a server that had a more laid back attitude and is friendly towards new/returning/casual players, your FFXI experience would have been much more enjoyable.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comments/1w32q3/final_fantasy_xi_reddit_linkshell_new_players/

Actually, Asura has a good new players linkshell or two. It's the official Reddit FFXI server. He just had to look for people to join a shell with. Feedback on that shell seems to be very good lately.

[Aezelas]

The question becomes: why do people play an MMORPG? For what reason would someone pick up FFXI?

I can guarantee you that the majority of people do not go MMORPG hunting for a good story (and thus, do not enjoy sitting there doing missions all day). The story is a nice thing to have, but people do not find FFXI and go "wow, this game looks like it has a good story, I'm gonna try this MMORPG." People play for a variety of reasons, the biggest probably is to play with friends.

That may be why FF11 still has a community. It's different in many ways, and you seem to look for something another MMO would offer.


So now, I began my journey into Adoulin, once again asking these same questions. What is skirmish? Why should I do it? Where are the missions? How many of these coalition assignments should I do? What is bayld for? What's a reive? What should I be doing out here? Why are people fighting the random mobs, is it for exp? Are there quests I should be doing somewhere from some random NPC? What are these weird items I'm getting? Yes, once again: none of it is explained in game. I was able to answer some of those questions by looking at the wikis and stuff, but others, I still have no idea.

That's not quite true. I'm pretty sure things are a lot more explained ingame in Adoulin than it was for any other expansion.
You simply have to talk to different npcs, and it's not like there are tons of them. Most of the quests and missions are pretty much straight forward, not requiring a lot of effort.
And most npcs show what items you can get participating to the events they're related to.

When Adoulin was released, Wiki had little info. We had to figure things out, we got explanation from npcs themselves and i enjoyed not rushing into anything.
If you really feel like you're in a hurry, or if there's somthing npcs weren't quite clear about, you still have the solution the ask questions ingame, to ls members or even through shouts. People would answer your questions.

As an example, you said you had to figure out that Abyssea is the best place to level post 75.
Could have shouted what would be the best place for that, you would have had an answer in like 5 seconds.

You're complaining that nothing is explained for that Aby part either. What do you want exactly? A pop-up window you would read for hours as soon as you enter the zone?
There are npcs at base camp, explaining a few things. And once again, ask questions in game. Ask questions to those you're partying with, who would tell you about lights, xp chain, time extensions.
In the worst case, you'd find out yourself what happens if you run out of time. Big deal.

Actually that's how the game was designed in the first place, precisely as a MMO. Players would share information and tips.
It still works really well. Despite what some people may say about Asura, you'll still find helpful players, i'm guessing as many as you would in any other server.

[Vivivivi]

To the OP-

Very insightful perspective in todays FFXI. And I can't disagree with many of your sentiments. Unfortunately it seems that the game isn't focused on attracting new players, but rather is focused on keeping current players and potentially drawing back old players.

I'd like to share a few tips from when I started out (3 years ago), which even then people found it strange to see a legitimately new player lol.

I like you, started out with a couple friends, which I highly recommend. What was nice about that is we really didn't know about end game and took at least a month to get to rank 6. We took our time doing missions, leveling jobs and trying to figure out ways to make gil (yagudo beads and crystals XD ). Eventually we stumbled on what we'd later learn are some end-game activities like voidwalker NMs, Abyssea, etc. After getting to Jeuno and interacting with other players, we got invites to a couple social linkshells and went from there.

I didn't have sea access for limbus events, didn't know the first thing about Dynamis, and was afraid to venture into Abyssea. Why'd I stick around? 2 reasons– I really loved the story in FFXI, I'm not really into other MMOs, but I am a die hard Final Fantasy fan. I also really enjoyed interacting with all of the players I met. While I would encourage any new player to stick with the game, I totally understand the frustration with how long it can take to get access to, and get geared well enough to participate in the current end game content, and in the games current state, even with trust npcs, records of eminence gear, etc. It can still take a long time.

[Xantavia]

For someone like me, I do not enjoy doing nonstop fetch quests; especially when they hold absolutely no difficulty, and they take an extraordinary amount of time, often for no real reason. It is a large time dump. Chains of Promathia was a major offender here. The majority of the quests involve absolutely no combat, and when they do involve combat, it lasts for about 10 seconds and then it's back to running somewhere again. Yes, that's because it's easy now, but either way, it's still boring, especially alone. At some point, I would've loved to go and do it just to see the story, yeah, sure. The problem is that I don't have a choice. I have to do all of this stuff (Zilart, Promathia, Aht Urhgan) for various reasons just to be able to do the content everyone else is doing. And NONE of those 3 things involve me playing with friends or anyone else. Going through Promathia with a friend is not an interesting experience; it's just you both doing it at the same time, no different than you both playing the same single player game across the room from each other.
Did you wait until you were at level cap before doing these missions? CoP battles were designed for characters 30-75. If you did it at 99, of course the fights were over in 10 seconds. It strikes me similar to complaints in other games about people grinding to the highest levels, then saying the game is too easy. And if you have friends, do the older content together. You want to do what everyone else is doing, but seem to overlook that if you did stuff with friends, it wouldn't really matter what everyone else is doing.

[Lithera]

Exactly, Xantavia. At 99 most of the old fights is stupid easy but go do say the CoP Diablos fight at 75 he will still whoop your butt if you don't stun nightmare. The diremites below him if you get knocked off or fall down will still do the same. Even the fight against Tenzen is still a slight challenge at 75 or even 80. Doing these at 99 would be like going to a beginning area in any other FF title at max level and expect to have a five minute fight vs a level ten mob. It is just not going to happen.

[Valhoola]

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the time I spent in FFXI. I wouldn't have played it for an entire month if I didn't enjoy it, but my god... the things this game put me through. Not going to recap, you can press the PAGE-UP key for that.

As for the question, yes, I played both.

I quit WoW a long time ago after playing every expansion up until Pandaland, got bored in Pandaland because of daily extravaganza and quit.

I'm still subbed to FFXIV (legacy 180 day sub), sitting in Revenant's Toll as a full item level 90 SMN. Bored, nothing to do, not entirely enjoying how WoW clone it is, but that's a discussion for another time/topic.
reason i came back to this game. im a legacy player in FFXIV only need to get fsh, cooking, alchemy to lv50. only need acn relics. WoW clones are not my cup of tea.

i still take this game over anything else on the market i have more freedom in this game. i think its the graphics that are the biggest turn down for FFXI since the game is going on 12 years old.

[Demonjustin]

i think its the graphics that are the biggest turn down for FFXI since the game is going on 12 years old.I have had a lot of friends I have tried to get into FFXI, not one of them complained about graphics really, it was always the learning curve and the time it took to get into the game. I know some people will be deterred by the graphics, just, by the reactions of people I know and the reactions of most people I have met, it seems like it goes far beyond the graphics alone.

[AppropriateName5786]

That may be why FF11 still has a community. It's different in many ways, and you seem to look for something another MMO would offer.



That's not quite true. I'm pretty sure things are a lot more explained ingame in Adoulin than it was for any other expansion.
You simply have to talk to different npcs, and it's not like there are tons of them. Most of the quests and missions are pretty much straight forward, not requiring a lot of effort.
And most npcs show what items you can get participating to the events they're related to.

When Adoulin was released, Wiki had little info. We had to figure things out, we got explanation from npcs themselves and i enjoyed not rushing into anything.
If you really feel like you're in a hurry, or if there's somthing npcs weren't quite clear about, you still have the solution the ask questions ingame, to ls members or even through shouts. People would answer your questions.

As an example, you said you had to figure out that Abyssea is the best place to level post 75.
Could have shouted what would be the best place for that, you would have had an answer in like 5 seconds.

You're complaining that nothing is explained for that Aby part either. What do you want exactly? A pop-up window you would read for hours as soon as you enter the zone?
There are npcs at base camp, explaining a few things. And once again, ask questions in game. Ask questions to those you're partying with, who would tell you about lights, xp chain, time extensions.
In the worst case, you'd find out yourself what happens if you run out of time. Big deal.

Actually that's how the game was designed in the first place, precisely as a MMO. Players would share information and tips.
It still works really well. Despite what some people may say about Asura, you'll still find helpful players, i'm guessing as many as you would in any other server.

Everquest 1 still has a community. What is your point?

Nothing in this game is straightforward, and if you think it is, you may need to play another (any) game/MMO for a bit and get out under that little rock you live under. I can bet you anything that no one in this thread would be happy about another mission/quest that is like ZM11 (looking for Maryoh Comyujah). If they say they did it the way SE intended the mission to be done and intensely enjoyed the "story" of this mission, and you believe them, I have a bridge to sell you.

Asking about aby can get players to point you in the right direction, but if they don't explain clearly, you will have to spam shouts/yells (which a truly new player won't know how to do or where to do it) about which npc to talk to and which maw to enter and then wonder why you can't enter the maw again after you're kicked out. Where in the game does it show you any of that? Everything that is updated is put onto the forums/official site, which means that you cannot find it in the game. As you can tell from how dead these forums are, most CURRENT players don't even use the forums, much less new players, who wouldn't know where to look on these convoluted sites (i.e. the forum site is a different site from the official site, which is also different from the account management webpage).

You may not empathize with new players and expect them to "ask, ask, ask," but it's simply not viable and you are taking a LOT for granted. Not only does it paint the player as a helpless, needy newbie (that this game's elitist playerbase doesn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole and may ostracize in future events) or assume that he will understand everything right away, it is also impractical and frustrating. I was not a new player and even I was overwhelmed in aby with understanding cruor/lights/fluxes/trophies/bastion etc. Now you expect a new player to understand lights/fluxes/keys/seals/crests/bayld/conquest/assault points/ancient beastcoins/sparks/imperial standing/tokens/allied notes/kinetics/plasm/resistance credits/cruor/dominion notes/battle trophies/traverser stones/voidstones/etc? Who's really being unreasonable here?

Any why did I say it was impractical? Let's say there is a mission in Castle Oztroja and you get a cutscene upon entering, and no clues about what follows, but the next part is just up the stairs. Do you expect the new player to go back to a city, ask, wait for a response, then run back to Castle Oztroja to run back up the stairs maybe up to 2 hours later than he otherwise could have? He might not know about warp scrolls and he probably won't know that Jeuno has linked chat but the 3 cities don't because, once again, there is no indication from the game. Or do you expect him to find one of those holier-than-thou "newbie-helpers" that always toot their own horns on these forums (because, clearly, they have made a HUGE difference in the game and we all know 100 of them) to give them info on demand and teach them how to use a wiki and what info to look up? Not very realistic at all. A WoW-style pop-up window with some clear hints would be a godsend in this game.

And please don't ever bring up how this game was "designed in the first place." I could elaborate on how idiotic that statement is, no matter who it comes from, but it has been said by many others before on this and every other ffxi forum.

[Afania]

Everquest 1 still has a community. What is your point?

Nothing in this game is straightforward, and if you think it is, you may need to play another (any) game/MMO for a bit and get out under that little rock you live under. I can bet you anything that no one in this thread would be happy about another mission/quest that is like ZM11 (looking for Maryoh Comyujah). If they say they did it the way SE intended the mission to be done and intensely enjoyed the "story" of this mission, and you believe them, I have a bridge to sell you.

Asking about aby can get players to point you in the right direction, but if they don't explain clearly, you will have to spam shouts/yells (which a truly new player won't know how to do or where to do it) about which npc to talk to and which maw to enter and then wonder why you can't enter the maw again after you're kicked out. Where in the game does it show you any of that? Everything that is updated is put onto the forums/official site, which means that you cannot find it in the game. As you can tell from how dead these forums are, most CURRENT players don't even use the forums, much less new players, who wouldn't know where to look on these convoluted sites (i.e. the forum site is a different site from the official site, which is also different from the account management webpage).

You may not empathize with new players and expect them to "ask, ask, ask," but it's simply not viable and you are taking a LOT for granted. Not only does it paint the player as a helpless, needy newbie (that this game's elitist playerbase doesn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole and may ostracize in future events) or assume that he will understand everything right away, it is also impractical and frustrating. I was not a new player and even I was overwhelmed in aby with understanding cruor/lights/fluxes/trophies/bastion etc. Now you expect a new player to understand lights/fluxes/keys/seals/crests/bayld/conquest/assault points/ancient beastcoins/sparks/imperial standing/tokens/allied notes/kinetics/plasm/resistance credits/cruor/dominion notes/battle trophies/traverser stones/voidstones/etc? Who's really being unreasonable here?

Any why did I say it was impractical? Let's say there is a mission in Castle Oztroja and you get a cutscene upon entering, and no clues about what follows, but the next part is just up the stairs. Do you expect the new player to go back to a city, ask, wait for a response, then run back to Castle Oztroja to run back up the stairs maybe up to 2 hours later than he otherwise could have? He might not know about warp scrolls and he probably won't know that Jeuno has linked chat but the 3 cities don't because, once again, there is no indication from the game. Or do you expect him to find one of those holier-than-thou "newbie-helpers" that always toot their own horns on these forums (because, clearly, they have made a HUGE difference in the game and we all know 100 of them) to give them info on demand and teach them how to use a wiki and what info to look up? Not very realistic at all. A WoW-style pop-up window with some clear hints would be a godsend in this game.

And please don't ever bring up how this game was "designed in the first place." I could elaborate on how idiotic that statement is, no matter who it comes from, but it has been said by many others before on this and every other ffxi forum.


There's a difference between "different design direction" and "flawed design". Different design direction= aiming to provide different playing experience, even though it may not be enjoyable by everyone. If you "fix" different design direction, it no longer provide the same experience. Flawed design= In a game aiming to provide certain playing experience, if you "fix" the flawed design, it still provide the intended experience, just in a much easier way.

I've played plenty of MMO that requires less research and asking questions in game, I don't find the questing aspect that much more enjoyable than FFXI nor less, tbh. It feels different, it's easier, but it also feel a lot more like just following the instruction like a robot and a lot of reading that's not related to the story(thus less immersion and so on), and the pop-up window doesn't feel like part of the gameplay. It's not "better", it's just "different".

Not providing information via pop up window or ! on the mini map, and have to ask questions in game, seems like a flawed design, but it really isn't. I'm not defending for it nor saying it must be like this forever(unlike my stance on Mythic), I don't care whether it's "fixed" or not, it didn't affect me that much in past a couple of years anyways. But whether you like it or not, it is a direction that provides different playing experience. In a game with pop-up window everywhere, although everything is easier and faster, you also have to read pages and pages text that doesn't belong to part of the gameplay, and it feel like following a guide and less like doing research in another gameworld.

What is a flawed design? One good example is macro system. In order to swap every gear slot besides weapon, you need 3 macro buttons. However, if you click 3 macro buttons in capped haste situation, you ended up doing less dmg. I never swap ammo slot on melee and just full time the same thing, because in order to swap ammo slot, I'd have to make 3 macro button and ended up doing less damage. 2 button is the most I can handle without being super gimp.

That makes current macro system a flawed design. The design direction is to have players have 5 set of gears and swap them for everything, which isn't a flawed direction. But having to use windower or don't swap everything if you want to WS fast enough is a flawed design. Fix macro system to 1~2 click for every swap, still provide the same gear swap experience, thus macro system is a flawed design.

Having to spend 20 min job change between event is also a flawed design. Having job change system or having to lv multiple job to participate in every content isn't a flawed design, just different design direction. Having to spend 20 min to change job is flawed design, fix this flaw you can still experience job change gameplay experience.

Having to communicate with other players/NPC for info, or the lack of pop-up window itsn't a flawed design, just different gameplay experience from hand-holding everything. Not knowing which NPC to click for info may be a design that needs improvement, which may be solved by better NPC placement, or different storytelling technique/different CS dialogue. But having a pop-up right in front of my face while I'm playing the game, solve the issue by heading toward another design direction, and not necessary the best solution. ARR had one million pop-ups with pages to explain stuff, everytime I have to stop my gameplay to read them. Would be cool if they explain stuff in game as part of the gameplay experience.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Not providing information via pop up window or ! on the mini map, and have to ask questions in game, seems like a flawed design, but it really isn't.

"To have her father's breastplate repaired by Ranchuriome, Miaux needs you to find an Altepa polishing stone."

That's right, boys and girls: your job is to go out into a desert that spans two zones and find a particular rock in a sea of rocks. Good luck!

EDIT: And this is only after you happen to meet the stringent requirements necessary to flag this quest to begin with!

[Crevox]

"To have her father's breastplate repaired by Ranchuriome, Miaux needs you to find an Altepa polishing stone."

That's right, boys and girls: your job is to go out into a desert that spans two zones and find a particular rock in a sea of rocks. Good luck!

EDIT: And this is only after you happen to meet the stringent requirements necessary to flag this quest to begin with!


Client
Mamaulabion (Near the Auction House, Norg)
Summary
Mamaulabion would like you to bring him any "thuper-dee-duper, overflowing with thpethial power itemth" you happen to come across in your travels. However, he was not able to provide you with any details on their whereabouts.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Mama_Mia

We're taking it to a whole new level: now it's not only the desert you have to look, it's the entire world, and you need 7 different items from completely different locations!

Remember: he gives you absolutely no hints at all what they are or where they are from. The NPC only exists for this purpose, and he has zero relation to anyone else nor the avatars.

What's the reward? Who knows! Good luck!

[Afania]

"To have her father's breastplate repaired by Ranchuriome, Miaux needs you to find an Altepa polishing stone."

That's right, boys and girls: your job is to go out into a desert that spans two zones and find a particular rock in a sea of rocks. Good luck!

EDIT: And this is only after you happen to meet the stringent requirements necessary to flag this quest to begin with!

It's not a "enjoyable" design for you not to have ! on the map, but it's not a "flawed" design. I'm talking about the terminology of game design, not personal prefernece.

You can argue that the design can be improved if NPC gives more hint in the dialogue, while keeping the existing direction, which I agree. But pop-up window or have ! on the map hand-holding is completely different design direction.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Crap like this was clearly done to sell guide books
BradyGames hasn't seen fit to sell an English-language guide since 2005
Yet crap like this persists 9 years later
Ergo, the game is flawed

[Camiie]

Crap like this was clearly done to sell guide books
BradyGames hasn't seen fit to sell an English-language guide since 2005
Yet crap like this persists 9 years later
Ergo, the game is flawed


And there you also have the real reason there wasn't an official windowed mode for so long.

[Feary]

And there you also have the real reason there wasn't an official windowed mode for so long.

meaning now that there is a official window mode and can look up the information. S.E has fixed that issue.

btw they still make brady/prima guides? between the internet and well lolbrady guides i think they would of went out of business by now. i guess have an actually publication would be nice for nostalgia if quality. well always cool reading about your games, as some guides were nicely written and detailed.

as afania said. it can be improved in dialogue. however, any thing more than that is the player lacking any sense of adventure.

[Elexia]

QFT.

So much honesty.

Nope, I enjoyed White Mage, I enjoyed Blue Mage, I enjoyed Dark Knight, I enjoyed Paladin, I enjoyed Corsair, I enjoyed PUP, I enjoyed Geomancer, I enjoyed Dancer and I enjoyed Scholar. Did I make a mistake?


Why do people like you exist? Quit and go to WoW already.

Like the posts on other forums, they exist to constantly remind people how bad the game they play is and won't quit. They'll also continually try to tell you you're wrong for enjoying this game or if you find anything good about it.

However they keep paying SE to do so, so don't even worry about it.

[Feary]

you know what is the point? really? 90 percent of these quests have no really baring on the game progression. Fame? can be easily capped.

you want S.E to spend the next 6 months to a year on 3 updates going to 10000's lines of code and change quests that dont mean anything. really stop trying to make point when you dont even realize what you want or what your suggestion implies

you want to complain for S.E to improve the game then focus on the bigger picture. S.E doesnt have the ability to turn out any decent size update like they have in the past and even then the task was too great.

want the newer playerbase to enjoy the game? reforge lower level content and give back level base content. bcnms, nation missions, and make real endgame quality/diffucultty events at lower levels. like eco warrior - an event that caps you at a level as you zone. which will require all that useless AH Gear to be revived. helping both 99 players and the level 10/20/30/40/50 noob.

give the endgame playerbase reason to go back to lower levels and play with others.

the real issue here is abyssea xp and the death of 6 man parties.

[Demonjustin]

You also chose the wrong job if you wanted to jump right into the current end game content. That would be better done on BRD or COR instead of SMN.He probably made the same mistake many new players make. He likely chose a job he thought he'd actually enjoy.Nope, I enjoyed White Mage, I enjoyed Blue Mage, I enjoyed Dark Knight, I enjoyed Paladin, I enjoyed Corsair, I enjoyed PUP, I enjoyed Geomancer, I enjoyed Dancer and I enjoyed Scholar. Did I make a mistake?You completely missed the point of the counterargument.

Let me try to explain how I took it at very least, maybe then you will understand it as I do.

A new player joined the game, they leveled to 30, unlocked SMN, and then did all of the work involved in getting SMN the things it needs, all the Avatars, some decent perp gear, the Ring, all that. Now, after putting this work in, the player can not play their job in a party in the content they wish to do, why? Simple, SMN is not useful, they picked the 'wrong job' to level, a 'mistake' they made when they chose SMN because they did not level something like the aforementioned suggestion of BRD or COR, jobs which are seen as useful whereas SMN is not. You picked jobs like WHM, DRK, COR, GEO, and SCH, so congratulations, you get an internet cookie, you picked jobs people will invite and accept in their party.

The thing is, not everyone wants to play a large range of jobs, get stuck on jobs they don't like or don't want to play primarily, or they simply do not like many jobs. I personally am an example of this kind of person to some extent. I like WAR, MNK, WHM, and SCH, I refuse to play any of these jobs at this point however. My favorite job in Final Fantasy as a whole, including FFXI, is RDM, always has been, always will be. The fact of the matter is that RDM is not all to useful, hasn't been for quite some time, before I started to really even play past XP parties, so most of the time I have no ability to play my job. The fact that I did like WAR, MNK, WHM, and SCH, meant that people almost always told me to play those jobs, and my play time on RDM was so minor that for a full year I never actually joined a party for anything meaningful whatsoever on my main job. Nowadays I purposely allowed my other jobs to fall so far behind that I will never bring them back up to the point of use again, I enjoy them, but I will not play them because I want to play RDM, and if I have them as options, RDM no longer becomes one.

The point I am trying to make with that, is that by playing other jobs which I do like, I can not play the one which I enjoy the most as no one will let me. If you do that with a new player it will be no different, in fact, it will be worse, because unlike me, a person who has a well established RDM and actually has a rep to some extent on my server for being a RDM, a new player would have no real stand out gear. A new player such as Crevox, who wants to play SMN, would be stuck on their WHM, BRD, or COR for everything without a second thought most likely, and after they have a rep for playing those jobs what are the chances they will break that rhythm and be allowed to play their SMN?



Right here, Draylo was basically saying that Crevox messed up by choosing to play SMN, he made the mistake of picking a job he thought he would like even though he said himself he came in knowing full well that SMN was not all to great and useful in parties. Are you telling me that in order to play this game and even try to enjoy events with other players that a person should level only jobs of use and not even expect to play the jobs they think they will enjoy?

[Draylo]

Yes because its an MMO. In any other MMO, you can't have 6/6 healers in one group to fight bosses and dungeons, SOME of them have to compromise and go other jobs. The same is said for this game, SMN can be fit into any end-game scenario reliably but it won't be the best. You would have to play a different job if you want to "rush" into endgame like the OP wants to.

[Aezelas]

Everquest 1 still has a community. What is your point?

That this game offers something different, and storylines are part of it.
I was responding to this statement: "I can guarantee you that the majority of people do not go MMORPG hunting for a good story".
I had to disagree with that. I don't know about the majority of people, but i know a lot of FF11 players do enjoy storylines.


Nothing in this game is straightforward, and if you think it is, you may need to play another (any) game/MMO for a bit and get out under that little rock you live under. I can bet you anything that no one in this thread would be happy about another mission/quest that is like ZM11 (looking for Maryoh Comyujah).

Same as the other guy with his "majority of people", you're speaking for other people, yet you don't seem to have any clue.
I could agree with ZM11. But i still think it's better than this Adoulin's mission where you have to find a few KIs all located in the city, with the 1st one given by the npc you get the quest from.
I'd rather run around and go hunt for those KI spread out in all Adoulin's zones.
Yes, i find it straight forward, but that's only my opinion.


You may not empathize with new players and expect them to "ask, ask, ask," but it's simply not viable and you are taking a LOT for granted. Not only does it paint the player as a helpless, needy newbie (that this game's elitist playerbase doesn't want to touch with a 10-foot pole and may ostracize in future events) or assume that he will understand everything right away, it is also impractical and frustrating. I was not a new player and even I was overwhelmed in aby with understanding cruor/lights/fluxes/trophies/bastion etc. Now you expect a new player to understand lights/fluxes/keys/seals/crests/bayld/conquest/assault points/ancient beastcoins/sparks/imperial standing/tokens/allied notes/kinetics/plasm/resistance credits/cruor/dominion notes/battle trophies/traverser stones/voidstones/etc? Who's really being unreasonable here?

Any why did I say it was impractical? Let's say there is a mission in Castle Oztroja and you get a cutscene upon entering, and no clues about what follows, but the next part is just up the stairs. Do you expect the new player to go back to a city, ask, wait for a response, then run back to Castle Oztroja to run back up the stairs maybe up to 2 hours later than he otherwise could have? He might not know about warp scrolls and he probably won't know that Jeuno has linked chat but the 3 cities don't because, once again, there is no indication from the game. Or do you expect him to find one of those holier-than-thou "newbie-helpers" that always toot their own horns on these forums (because, clearly, they have made a HUGE difference in the game and we all know 100 of them) to give them info on demand and teach them how to use a wiki and what info to look up? Not very realistic at all. A WoW-style pop-up window with some clear hints would be a godsend in this game.

No indication from the game, really?
Try hit "/? shout", or "/? yell".
That works for every single command, by the way.

And, why warp?
Did you miss the point where i mentioned ls chat?
Maybe you would paint a player asking questions as a needy newbie. A lot of other people wouldn't, especially among ls members.
When new players ask questions, and it doesn't matter how many, people take the time to answer, and rephrase if their answer wasn't clear enough.
They would also escort if needed or asked.
I don't know what is this elitist playerbase you're refering to, and I don't know how numerous it is. Some players may be elitist. I don't think you can label the whole playerbase that way.
I just know i've met helpful players.


And please don't ever bring up how this game was "designed in the first place." I could elaborate on how idiotic that statement is, no matter who it comes from, but it has been said by many others before on this and every other ffxi forum.

Could argue on that forever.
I personaly liked this game for what it was. Changes are necessary, but making it become as every other MMO is not. What works for something doesn't necessary fits to FF11.
Your pop-up window is one example.

[Zeargi]

Yes because its an MMO. In any other MMO, you can't have 6/6 healers in one group to fight bosses and dungeons, SOME of them have to compromise and go other jobs. The same is said for this game, SMN can be fit into any end-game scenario reliably but it won't be the best. You would have to play a different job if you want to "rush" into endgame like the OP wants to.

Personally, SMN is a strong DD/Support class, the problem is that SMN's abilities on the support side don't scale the way they should. I've played SMN since the the moment I could, and did I get invites, no really, because people saw SMN as a Gimped healer. There are lots of things holding SMN back from the true potential it could have, one of which is the player base. It falls into the same field as PUP, most people that don't play the job, don't understand how useful and devastating it can be.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

meaning now that there is a official window mode and can look up the information. S.E has fixed that issue.

Expecting paying subscribers to use verboten tools to parse, datmine and otherwise divine out information that is effectively designed to be a trade secret between the game publisher and the guide publisher is hardly a "fix."

[OKOA]

You completely missed the point of the counterargument.

Let me try to explain how I took it at very least, maybe then you will understand it as I do.

A new player joined the game, they leveled to 30, unlocked SMN, and then did all of the work involved in getting SMN the things it needs, all the Avatars, some decent perp gear, the Ring, all that. Now, after putting this work in, the player can not play their job in a party in the content they wish to do, why? Simple, SMN is not useful, they picked the 'wrong job' to level, a 'mistake' they made when they chose SMN because they did not level something like the aforementioned suggestion of BRD or COR, jobs which are seen as useful whereas SMN is not. You picked jobs like WHM, DRK, COR, GEO, and SCH, so congratulations, you get an internet cookie, you picked jobs people will invite and accept in their party.

The thing is, not everyone wants to play a large range of jobs, get stuck on jobs they don't like or don't want to play primarily, or they simply do not like many jobs. I personally am an example of this kind of person to some extent. I like WAR, MNK, WHM, and SCH, I refuse to play any of these jobs at this point however. My favorite job in Final Fantasy as a whole, including FFXI, is RDM, always has been, always will be. The fact of the matter is that RDM is not all to useful, hasn't been for quite some time, before I started to really even play past XP parties, so most of the time I have no ability to play my job. The fact that I did like WAR, MNK, WHM, and SCH, meant that people almost always told me to play those jobs, and my play time on RDM was so minor that for a full year I never actually joined a party for anything meaningful whatsoever on my main job. Nowadays I purposely allowed my other jobs to fall so far behind that I will never bring them back up to the point of use again, I enjoy them, but I will not play them because I want to play RDM, and if I have them as options, RDM no longer becomes one.

The point I am trying to make with that, is that by playing other jobs which I do like, I can not play the one which I enjoy the most as no one will let me. If you do that with a new player it will be no different, in fact, it will be worse, because unlike me, a person who has a well established RDM and actually has a rep to some extent on my server for being a RDM, a new player would have no real stand out gear. A new player such as Crevox, who wants to play SMN, would be stuck on their WHM, BRD, or COR for everything without a second thought most likely, and after they have a rep for playing those jobs what are the chances they will break that rhythm and be allowed to play their SMN?



Right here, Draylo was basically saying that Crevox messed up by choosing to play SMN, he made the mistake of picking a job he thought he would like even though he said himself he came in knowing full well that SMN was not all to great and useful in parties. Are you telling me that in order to play this game and even try to enjoy events with other players that a person should level only jobs of use and not even expect to play the jobs they think they will enjoy?


It is hilarious how delusional the responses in this thread are getting to simple logical arguments that people like Demonjustin are presenting.

It seems the majority of the forum-dwellers really have their head crammed down deep into the sand.

It's simple really:

1) Guy or Gal grows up playing FF games. Decides to re-play FFVII and FFVIII

2) Gets all nostalgic watching the summons, and thinks "Hmmm, FFXI, the one that got away" ... maybe I'll try it.

3) Boots up, levels to 30, unlocks summoner, and things are going swimmingly.

4) Gets all the practical summons he/she can given limited playtime.

5) Feels great and powerful smashing worms in Aby to 99.

6) Finally, time to put these summons to the test!

7) Told to level WHM COR or BRD if he/she actually wants to party, otherwise GTFO and play WoW

There are endless variations to this theme.

Prior to this it was "ALEXANDER or GTFO."

In Aby when I would show up to linkshell fights I would get scalded for trying to send an avatar to actually fight the mob.

"Buff-bot or GTFO."

Is it really so hard to see that such a pale glimpse of what it means to be a summoner in other FF games would be a hugely dissappointing turnoff?

Or is the goal here to just rub salt in the wound?



Yes because its an MMO. In any other MMO, you can't have 6/6 healers in one group to fight bosses and dungeons, SOME of them have to compromise and go other jobs.

It's an MMO from the early 2000s, which might make this statement true. But it is not unequivocably true, not even close. For starters, it uses (or used, depending on how fixable you regard enmity) the "holy trinity" as mechanism for balancing combat roles.

There are tons of games on the market right now that no longer balance battles around such a system. Notably, in Guild Wars 2 a party of 6/6 "healers" (Guardian, only class with true healing spells) would be capable of beating most dungeons.

I also belonged to an all BST linkshell on Asura called LuckyCharms and we frequently did events as all BST. Successfully I might add. So your argument that balance MUST be enforced doesn't really even hold water in FFXI.

Point blank, forcing people to play specific jobs in order to advance in the game is, was, and always has been shoddy design.

The only time it works is when the job you really want to play happens to be the darling at any given time.

With 22 jobs, those are some bad odds.

[bungiefanNA]

meaning now that there is a official window mode and can look up the information. S.E has fixed that issue.

btw they still make brady/prima guides? between the internet and well lolbrady guides i think they would of went out of business by now. i guess have an actually publication would be nice for nostalgia if quality. well always cool reading about your games, as some guides were nicely written and detailed.

as afania said. it can be improved in dialogue. however, any thing more than that is the player lacking any sense of adventure.

In Japan, they have published annual Ultimania guides for this game. They put out Ultimania guides for all the FF games, and they detail a lot of obscure things about the games.

http://kotaku.com/13-years-later-a-new-final-fantasy-ix-quest-has-been-d-510041775

Final Fantasy IX, that quest was known to the Japanese, but until someone translated that bit into English, it wasn't known in English-speaking countries. FFXI Ultimanias specify the details of hidden and latent effects on items that are otherwise unknown to the players. Brady could have kept doing guides, but what SE does puts them to shame, and the sales weren't pleasing to Brady apparently.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

No indication from the game, really?
Try hit "/? shout", or "/? yell".

/yell is filtered by default, as I recall. You'd have to know they exist first, at the very least, let alone know that it is the only realistic way of assembling groups now. The party flag that official S-E materials point you to is completely useless now in any event.

[Damane]

Personally, SMN is a strong DD/Support class, the problem is that SMN's abilities on the support side don't scale the way they should. I've played SMN since the the moment I could, and did I get invites, no really, because people saw SMN as a Gimped healer. There are lots of things holding SMN back from the true potential it could have, one of which is the player base. It falls into the same field as PUP, most people that don't play the job, don't understand how useful and devastating it can be.

actually the only thing summoner has going for it is hate free damage and Eearthen Armor atm. It has catched up a bit, but its still miles away, which is understandable due to the hatefree damage. The only way you could see SMN ramp out massiv Damage like Melees or nukers is if SE would make the SMN share hate with its avatar and then buff their damage massivly, which is never going to happen.

Now Avatars Favour would be a decent ability as a support class if the range of it was way bigger and it would start at max potency.

[Camiie]

Nope, I enjoyed White Mage, I enjoyed Blue Mage, I enjoyed Dark Knight, I enjoyed Paladin, I enjoyed Corsair, I enjoyed PUP, I enjoyed Geomancer, I enjoyed Dancer and I enjoyed Scholar. Did I make a mistake?

The OP started the game fresh and likely chose a job based solely on personal appeal and fun factor, just as many of us probably did when we first started the game, rather than choosing one based on endgame favorablity. I used mistake in a satirical sense as he really hasn't done anything wrong. Maybe I should have spelled it out more clearly so you in particular could understand. Everyone else seemed to get it, after all.

To be honest though, I really should have predicted you'd find my posts in this thread and launch into another one of your "SE can do no wrong" tirades directed against me personally. It's beyond creepy how you always seem to do that here and on other forums, but hey whatever.



Like the posts on other forums, they exist to constantly remind people how bad the game they play is and won't quit.

My purpose is to get SE to take care of what I see as flaws so my experience improves. If all everyone did was come here and blow sunshine up their <Rear> then we'd still have the exact same game with all the same problems we had in 2002. Maybe I should say, "If you want a game stuck in the past decade, why don't you quit and play Everquest?" But you know I don't think that way


They'll also continually try to tell you you're wrong for enjoying this game or if you find anything good about it. However they keep paying SE to do so, so don't even worry about it.

I guess you're talking about someone else, because I have never done this.

[Aezelas]

/yell is filtered by default, as I recall. You'd have to know they exist first, at the very least, let alone know that it is the only realistic way of assembling groups now. The party flag that official S-E materials point you to is completely useless now in any event.

True, and i was simply pointing out that saying there's no information anywhere in game is wrong.
Anyway, you can also type "/?" and have a nice list of every command you have access to, and try every single one when you're bored enough.
Maybe it should look differently, but having everything explained in game wouldn't help if you have no clue what you're looking for in the first place.
And even if you do, it would be no different than browsing a wiki, since the game has 11 years worth of content.

Asking for in game deep explanations about "lights/fluxes/keys/seals/crests/bayld/conquest/assault points/ancient beastcoins/sparks/imperial standing/tokens/allied notes/kinetics/plasm/resistance credits/cruor/dominion notes/battle trophies/traverser stones/voidstones/etc" for the least, without bothering asking people advice is what i think is unreasonnable, considering you're getting accurate information from other sources.
Aren't players interaction and experience sharing part of a MMO anyway?

There are great beginners guides out there, and some are up to date.
For more information, i'm still thinking other players experience is the way to go.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Anyway, you can also type "/?" and have a nice list of every command you have access to, and try every single one when you're bored enough.

Or I can type "help" in my operating system's command prompt and get the same level of entertainment without paying $12.95/mo


There are great beginners guides out there, and some are up to date.

"Damning with faint praise."

[Raydeus]

How do you get to lvl 50 without getting used to being butchered by some random mob anyway? o_O;


PS >
Speaking of that, one of the things I miss the most were the random trains in places like G. Citadel and Yuhtunga Jungle. They could be annoying at times, but they were also part of what made XI, XI back then.

"Train going to zone!" "Run away!" "What are all you guys doing out here? o_O I'm going in! <30 seconds later> /tell Hey, can I get a Raise?"

;)

[Feary]

Expecting paying subscribers to use verboten tools to parse, datmine and otherwise divine out information that is effectively designed to be a trade secret between the game publisher and the guide publisher is hardly a "fix."

yes it was and is a fix, it allows you to use communicate with players outside/offline and read posted/wiki information from players. its was feasible to give us window mode so we can use our computer, listen to music, browse the internet and look up game info.

it was S.E solution that problem, these same issues were brought up year after year. before there was a forum and we only had 1 interview with developers from some random person. they wanted to keep game info a secret and have you do it without information. basically take a party out there and figure the shit out. community was like no and when they could do the recoding and get directx on board. they made the change. basically saying here we will ease up.


Not all the information there is dat mined. wiki also had testimonials, common information that was not a quest secret or spolier and it was put there by ppl actually taking the time to write it.

i personally made the foundation to many pages on wiki, none of those tools, just reading the npc and organizing it.

sorry ive been playing this game before wiki, before allakazam forums, where information was heard through the grapevine and had to be either translated. even with the brady guide you wasnt getting anywhere.

either way,
its not a trade secret, its a game, with a puzzle that you have to solve. its what you pay and subscribe for. if its too hard, then play another mmo.

there are better things s.e can focus on. like creating new content opposite to fix irelevant content for 2% of the population who hasnt already experienced. the issue in this game is ppl finishing and getting bored and quitting.

its not like s.e is marketing to new players for this game. we need to focus on keep the people who play everyday not the 5 ppl who are going to do the lower

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Not all the information there is dat mined.

Two words: food effects.

One more: latents.

Much of that information is wholly inaccessible without a degree of reverse-engineering the game (expressly forbidden in the license agreement and terms of service), unless S-E explicitly tells you through some sort of exclusive publishing arrangement.

And if you think turning a blind eye to the use of forbidden third-party tools to determine what food grants an accuracy boost is S-E's idea of a "fix," then S-E has entered into the service agreement in bad faith and is opening themselves up to a lawsuit.

(A real lawsuit, not "internet lawyer" lawsuit.)

[Crevox]

How do you get to lvl 50 without getting used to being butchered by some random mob anyway? o_O;

I didn't go back because:

1. I had no reason to; I was looking for mobs to EXP on and looked in there, clearly that was not the place to go
2. Clearly the mobs are too high level and I should not be there


No indication from the game, really?
Try hit "/? shout", or "/? yell".

When I got to Jeuno, everyone was shouting in yell text. Nothing in the game tells you that it is /yell. I spent quite a bit of time actually trying to figure out what the command was to talk like they were.

[Crevox]

Okay, I just had to point this out.

This is from the other topic. This is a great example of something that would be yelled in game and I would have absolutely no idea what it means. Nothing the wiki or guides can teach me would tell me what this means:


any chance that the JSE cape awarded from WKR be added to the rewards obtainable by the Key Items such as the library quest or RoE? i have all the WKR drops and could do with getting a JSE cape that i can use

And no newbie player would understand it either.

[Ritsuka]

Hello little taru~ I'll play with you if you want to change to bahamut server. I'm older player been here long time. Smn is a hard job because really nothing really been added to it until just recently. The emp gear is good for the prep cost. I have not yet got to test the new AF. but the first AF for smn sucked lol thats why people used YY robe.
I know few good smn's on game


Ya that shout is full of abbreviations lol JSE job specific equipment

[bungiefanNA]

Okay, I just had to point this out.

This is from the other topic. This is a great example of something that would be yelled in game and I would have absolutely no idea what it means. Nothing the wiki or guides can teach me would tell me what this means:



And no newbie player would understand it either.

That's true of any game though. Jargon like that is going to be used by the player base and new people aren't going to know what it means until they ask. All communities have their own jargon, and you learn it by participating and asking questions. Heck, the internet has its own abbreviations in each language.

[Crevox]

That's true of any game though. Jargon like that is going to be used by the player base and new people aren't going to know what it means until they ask. All communities have their own jargon, and you learn it by participating and asking questions. Heck, the internet has its own abbreviations in each language.

Problem is there's really no guide online for this stuff. People don't make the guides, so there's no way to learn. I mean, look, I googled "ffxi wkr" and I get nothing that tells me what it is:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ffxi+wkr&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS547US547&oq=ffxi+wkr

New players don't like asking questions like that of people either. It's intimidating, and also can make you feel stupid for asking, especially when it's potentially a party you want to join up with (first step in is telling them you have no idea what they're talking about?). I might be willing to take the time and post all of this, and talk to people, but do you really think everyone else will? Or rather, anyone else?

[Ravenmore]

Thing is if you watch just a bit you see the auto trans of wild keeper reives all the freaking time so it doesn't take much more then a IQ little over 75 to connect wilds keeper reives to wkr. Franky you want hand holding play another MMO, the very few and I mean very few new players are not really helping the game that much and they wouldn't really be missed. If all I have to look forward to is FF14 with outdated graphics why bother playing 11 in the first place. Also people ask questions all the time in tells and shouts with no problems as long as they don't demand info or ask pointless retarded questions At this point in the game's life slowing the flow out is far more important then trying to attract new players or even making those players new players happy. SE knows full well that there is a good many subs of FFXI that will never go over to FF14 so to cash in on those they maintain 11.

[Feary]

Well you missed out on the best FFXI expansion. WOTG mission storyline is awesome, soloable, and also WOTG events like campaign are the most atmospheric and immersive in the game. WOTG jobs Dancer and Scholar are also worth taking to 99, they are fun to play and powerful.
Re; your more generalised point about [to paraphrase] "FFXI doesn't tell you what to do", that is because it is a realistic RPG virtual world. In real-life you are not told what decisions to make either, from childhood on up you can be a shopkeeper, doctor, banker or a surfing instructor etc. The choices are open to you in real-life, and the same is true of FFXI. Some options are fairly compulsory, such as levelling and obtaining gear, but a lot of the game is wide open to your decisions on how you spend your time and where you spend it.
Linear games that have low player-input in the decision-making / options sphere, those games suck. They are linear and boring, it is like a factory production line where you are a chicken being plucked, stamped and wrapped and put on a shelf. FFXI is not like that, you are an individual in a realistic virtual world, making your own decisions. That is why it has remained popular for over a decade.


lol zilart, chains, toau, abyssea set, and soa were all better expansions. i can agree that the wotg storyline cutscene had higher quality quests(flee speed planting bombs) and cinematic value. however that is not the only factor to define a good expansion. not the mention it took s.e 3 years to complete the storyline. which negated it all. it was also very obvious who the villian was. i doont want give it away. but that shit was sooooooo obvious. i mean come on.

lol you can be anything you want to be? lol really? that is really ignorant. life does work that way. people have different starting points and the world is not fair. hell if we all really that capable of being anything or anyone we want to be why the hell would we spend 20+ hours a week gaming. there is not real value. and you can get more entertainment with real human interactions.

most ppl who game are ppl who want to get away from thier real life. if the playerbase could have such sucess we would not be on this forum. we would be living live to the fullest.

you take the lemons and make lemonade. just like we have(afania, draylo) been saying. the game is its own unique world you have to get through.

if you want to make suggestiosn make them for the future, stop trying to fix shit that isnt broken and come up with new ideas that helps the entire playerbase directly. not just unaccomplished or highly accomplish players.

[Feary]

Okay, I just had to point this out.

This is from the other topic. This is a great example of something that would be yelled in game and I would have absolutely no idea what it means. Nothing the wiki or guides can teach me would tell me what this means:

And no newbie player would understand it either.

there is nothing wrong with asking questions. most of this stuff you will stumble on in storyline from brenton, and RoE is all over s.e sites and forums. do research; not just read wiki, ask ppl if you dont understand.

again you need to go to SoA.

[Crevox]

Thing is if you watch just a bit you see the auto trans of wild keeper reives all the freaking time so it doesn't take much more then a IQ little over 75 to connect wilds keeper reives to wkr.

Thanks for calling me retarded.

This is the best community: a fine example of why I don't PM people asking what WKR is

[VoiceMemo]

Having read the majority of the 13 some pages, I'll throw in my 2 gil.

My first question Crevox, is that do you, or have you been a part of a social shell.
As a players starting off, these tend to be invaluable to ask questions. I tell anyone
that is a returning player in my shell to ask many questions as the game has changed alot
since they last played.

I've always viewed linkshells with this hierarchy:

1)No linkshell
2)Social shell
3)Social shell with some higher end content
4)Endgame shell
5)Retirement Shell, endgame shell of older players who want to do endgame but not at breakneck speed

And I've always held that once you get to 4 you either go to 5 or back to 1 from burnout/frustration.

Speaking for myself, I've played now for some 10 years(has it really been that long..). I've accomplished near every goal I have setout for myself. I am one of Asura's few Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic Bards. I would not have gotten this far without linkshell/friends. All but 1 of my IRL friends quit the game(that I had started the game with), the 1 friend recently came back after 4 years of not playing. Which now I'm in the situation I want to get him caught up, but I can't just drop my LS Leader obligation just to help 1 person.

Before when I was in school/not working I tried to help as many people as I could, both in my shell, friends, and random shouts. But now that I'm older and such I only try to focus on my ls/friends. I still try to help as much as I can to pay the help I got forward.

I can understand your frustration where alot of the information is not worded/linked well on wikis. My advice echoes some of the other posts. A linkshell helps alot. Granted because of abyssea that killed may of the endgame shells, but there are still good linkshells out there. It just may take you some time to find one you fit in. As others of said, ask around, be polite and try try try. You'll never beat someone that has years of playing the game in terms of time/mob experience, but that's alright, knowing your job and following directions of leaders is the key. If you can do those 2 things usually you'll be fine.

The other thing you could do is find a mentor. I've mentored a few players, where I would help them out with information/fights etc. Networking/making friends/linkshell are the 3 things that I can recommend that may improve your ffxi experience.

[Lithera]

It's not their fault, you don't seem to want to actually use your brain while in game. Also one of the best accessories in a non ring slot for once can be gotten from WotG. It's best augments are aimed at mage jobs. Quick cast is awesome when it goes off. Seems to proc a lot at least for me. Though most of the time on a buff. Also as I have said before it has some really good pre 70 gear you could have gotten since you said you didn't go into abyssea til 75. Some of the grips you can get using AN are very helpful and probably cheaper than ones off the AH. Also scholar is a very helpful job as a sub job. If you actually had the balls to ask a question as to where to level around 41 without having to step into abyssea I would hope someone on asura would have told you east ronfaure [S] as a really good spot til about 47. But no you seem to be too afraid to ask questions in game just because of the one time you did you had a bad experience.

[AppropriateName5786]

there is nothing wrong with asking questions. most of this stuff you will stumble on in storyline from brenton, and RoE is all over s.e sites and forums. do research; not just read wiki, ask ppl if you dont understand.

again you need to go to SoA.

And it's so easy to connect NNI with Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey. And it doesn't take a genius to connect Delve to Morimar 1-5+ NM. And it goes without saying that new players should be expected to memorize the tens of BCNM and KCNM fights too. RJ? UO? In the whole of the English language, these letters have never stood for anything else besides Royal Jelly and Ultima Online, I mean Under Observation. And there you are insulting other people's IQ.

[OKOA]

Thanks for calling me retarded.

This is the best community: a fine example of why I don't PM people asking what WKR is

It's so sad that a new player trys to come on here and give genuine suggestions, and the prototypical response on this forum is ALWAYS someone gaslighting them.

[OKOA]

The difference between an extremely complex game like EVE Online and an extremely complex game like FFXI is that, in the former, the community accepts that the super-steep learning curve could be a massive turnoff, and does everything to try to accomodate new players. See EVE University for reference. No one complains there because a player run organization dedicated to improving the new player experience meticulously maintains a high quality wiki that is free to use.

In FFXI they tell you the problem is your IQ.

To wit, Zeni Notorious Monster versus Records of Eminence.

RoE ... open one menu, click to initiate quest, kill sh*t, start collecting rewards.

ZNM ... to be totally honest with you, I still don't know wtf a Soul Plate is ( other than at the last second you trap a monster inside one??? ), and from what I gather, this is content people actually still do.

Yes, clearly our intelligence is the dam stopping up the wellspring of intuitiveness built into these expertly designed systems.

And by the way, hunting in ERS never gave AN and still doesn't. You'd have to actively campaign battle for that. It does however have the huge disadvantage of not having FoV or GoV pages available, the latter providing important buffs to skill gain rate and attack power. I loved grouping in that zone when people did bird sync parties, don't get me wrong. But Google traded at $450 a share then too.

Life is full of missed opportunities, but I don't believe this game necessarily should be too.

[Spectreman]

Once you start seing MMORPGs as a journey and brake the chains of "end game carrot-slavery mindset" you will have fun. It takes a huge while to happen though and you have to grow up a lot to see that the reason we play is to be immersed in a virtual world where we can do things we can't in real life, instead of rushing to get the new set of gear that will tell others how cool you are and get bored right after while complaining for the new set of gear to arrive.


So forget about endgame. They were made for people to get stressed and have an empty feeling of accomplishment. Play the game for the story, get 117 gear through RoE. Level the jobs you like and don't care about having to make it best in slot to satisfy others so they will allow you to play with them.

Play the game for you and not for them. When you are able to do that and have fun you then mastered Final Fantasy XI.

[Ravenmore]

It's so sad that a new player trys to come on here and give genuine suggestions, and the prototypical response on this forum is ALWAYS someone gaslighting them.

What they are suggesting is make FF11 a FF14 with worse graphics. More to the point on Zam there have been a couple of threads just this past week of people asking honest questions in a tone that got them answers. I get tells all the time asking me how to do something or where something is at, it really comes down to tone and what you are asking for(ask me for gil I'll laugh in your face).

People remember you and how you ask so how you come across in you first post is how people will see you till your quit posting or playing. Come in saying how the game doesn't hold your hand and whining how a 11 year old game should be more like other MMOs is not how you go about it.

[Ravenmore]

The difference between an extremely complex game like EVE Online and an extremely complex game like FFXI is that, in the former, the community accepts that the super-steep learning curve could be a massive turnoff, and does everything to try to accomodate new players. See EVE University for reference. No one complains there because a player run organization dedicated to improving the new player experience meticulously maintains a high quality wiki that is free to use.

In FFXI they tell you the problem is your IQ.

To wit, Zeni Notorious Monster versus Records of Eminence.

RoE ... open one menu, click to initiate quest, kill sh*t, start collecting rewards.

ZNM ... to be totally honest with you, I still don't know wtf a Soul Plate is ( other than at the last second you trap a monster inside one??? ), and from what I gather, this is content people actually still do.

Yes, clearly our intelligence is the dam stopping up the wellspring of intuitiveness built into these expertly designed systems.

And by the way, hunting in ERS never gave AN and still doesn't. You'd have to actively campaign battle for that. It does however have the huge disadvantage of not having FoV or GoV pages available, the latter providing important buffs to skill gain rate and attack power. I loved grouping in that zone when people did bird sync parties, don't get me wrong. But Google traded at $450 a share then too.

Life is full of missed opportunities, but I don't believe this game necessarily should be too.


And a few mins on wiki(FFXI has many sites that are free and well maintained and they pop up with the first 5 google results) would tell you right away and the only people doing it are people finishing mystics and by and large is dead content with little to no reason for new players to touch. Wiki and the rest of the info is out there and it was SE intentions at the start of of the game to push sites like wiki instead of having it explained in game or for players to ask each other and share the information between our selves. Though SE biggest mistake was to open these forums with out a suggestion area and a general help area and enforced it.

[Lithera]

And by the way, hunting in ERS never gave AN and still doesn't. You'd have to actively campaign battle for that. It does however have the huge disadvantage of not having FoV or GoV pages available, the latter providing important buffs to skill gain rate and attack power. I loved grouping in that zone when people did bird sync parties, don't get me wrong. But Google traded at $450 a share then too.

Life is full of missed opportunities, but I don't believe this game necessarily should be too.

Yes it doesn't give AN but the OP said he didn't go back to WotG zones is because after dying to a lv 50 mob he never went back. Then after some more prodding he said it was more so because he couldn't find a place to xp. Does it have fov or gov? No but you can get regen and refresh when you get sigil. Also if the city you are allied with has the pixies they give a reduced xp loss from death you can add to your sigil. One of the huge complaints many new players have is there is no real gear at lower levels. Meanwhile they probably never bothered to even unlock WotG areas and thus cant get gear for mid 50 or late 60. If the equipment you can get from CP isn't to your liking or if you are not from that city and thus can't buy an item because it is that city only. Also how else are people to think of a person who complains they didn't know what this or that was because they didn't ask the people online what certain things are or what they mean? You have to use your brain in this game. If you don't ask things in game an only rely on wikis then yes people are going to call you an idiot. After all it doesn't take hopefully too long to know not to be facing a cocatrice or a lizy when they're about to petrify you.

As for soul plates the cameras in game are like the ones that were first made in RL. They used to use plates that would help copy the image the camera was aimed at. Some people didn't like cameras and felt they would steal your soul.

[OKOA]

Yes it doesn't give AN but the OP said he didn't go back to WotG zones is because after dying to a lv 50 mob he never went back. Then after some more prodding he said it was more so because he couldn't find a place to xp. Does it have fov or gov? No but you can get regen and refresh when you get sigil. Also if the city you are allied with has the pixies they give a reduced xp loss from death you can add to your sigil. One of the huge complaints many new players have is there is no real gear at lower levels. Meanwhile they probably never bothered to even unlock WotG areas and thus cant get gear for mid 50 or late 60. If the equipment you can get from CP isn't to your liking or if you are not from that city and thus can't buy an item because it is that city only. Also how else are people to think of a person who complains they didn't know what this or that was because they didn't ask the people online what certain things are or what they mean? You have to use your brain in this game. If you don't ask things in game an only rely on wikis then yes people are going to call you an idiot. After all it doesn't take hopefully too long to know not to be facing a cocatrice or a lizy when they're about to petrify you.

As for soul plates the cameras in game are like the ones that were first made in RL. They used to use plates that would help copy the image the camera was aimed at. Some people didn't like cameras and felt they would steal your soul.

What is the basis for your argument?

The books give Regen, Refresh, Reraise, Haste, and a potent food effect...all of this in addition to an extremely generous bonus to xp/hr rate along with incremental hourly gil infusions.

Why would anyone ever level in WoTG? You go there for campaign, missioning, and perhaps the opportunity to shore up a few pieces of gear.

A level 60 cannot gear themselves up with AN gear in any meaningful way. I did some campaign at 70 to get the AN for my trusts. All I did was follow a JP around and heal him. I got about 2,000 AN per battle. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and the fact that anyone on this forum WOULD shows me what a delusional troll they are.

I did it out of desperation to experience the game the way it was "meant to be played," rather that just trading in a copper voucher and calling it a day. Stupid move.


And a few mins on wiki(FFXI has many sites that are free and well maintained and they pop up with the first 5 google results) would tell you right away and the only people doing it are people finishing mystics and by and large is dead content with little to no reason for new players to touch.

I think the real point here is that no one ever gives any indication of how we should "just know" that this is dead content. Where on the wiki does it state...oh, don't even bother.

How was Crevox supposed to know whether or not WoTG was dead content? After all, he zoned in and got insta-gibbed?

Seriously, had he zoned into Rolanberry [S] he would have been greeted by level 33 non-aggro mobs. But instead, he probably popped in Batallia, and got mauled by a level 50-something tiger or goblin.

I think it's hilarious that every new player in this game is supposed to just intuitively assume that they will need Sneak and Invisible to travel ANYWHERE meaningful, because if for one signle second they stop pretending they are Solid effing Snake they will immediately be punished.

When I first found out that the basis for accomplishing much in this game was to simply cloak up and run past it invisible I was sorely disappointed.

Remember that one great Final Fantasy where instead of fighting to the death, you just hid from everything?

Yeah...I don't either.

[AppropriateName5786]

And a few mins on wiki(FFXI has many sites that are free and well maintained and they pop up with the first 5 google results) would tell you right away and the only people doing it are people finishing mystics and by and large is dead content with little to no reason for new players to touch. Wiki and the rest of the info is out there and it was SE intentions at the start of of the game to push sites like wiki instead of having it explained in game or for players to ask each other and share the information between our selves. Though SE biggest mistake was to open these forums with out a suggestion area and a general help area and enforced it.

Well-maintained wikis? I am speechless. And googling a wiki and knowing what to look for/where to find it is very different. Getting a new player to google everything they don't understand about ffxi is akin to asking someone who doesn't know Italian to translate a paragraph from English to Italian using google translate. The result is mediocre at best, and an incomprehensible mess at worst.

As an experiment, I went to bluegartr wiki and typed "ZNM" in the search box. The top 5 results I got were Gyroscopic Gear, Gyroscopic Gear, Proto-Ultima, Donggu, FFXI Version Update History. How useful!

And the rest of your paragraph is nonsensical. FFXI having no official windowed mode and being on PlayStation 2 = SE pushing sites like wiki? Forcing players to break ToS and data mine everything because no one knows what does what = having players share information? Furthermore, from which crevice did you pull out "SE's intentions?"


by and large is dead content with little to no reason for new players to touch

You unwittingly argued for the OP. You think ZNMs are dead, the OP implies that CoP/RoZ/WotG/ToAU are dead by not wanting to do them. Neither can be proven wrong. Whether or not content is dead is subjective, but content road blocks that screw new players is an objective reality in this game.

edit: because I may have misrepresented OP's views regarding expansions

[OKOA]

You unwittingly argued for the OP.

Glad I'm not the only one who saw the irony...

[Lithera]

Let's see what all you can get with sigil active regen and refresh xp loss down extended meal duration. No loss of tp and an increase of hp recovered while resting. You can quickly go into town and get reraise scrolls. Chain xp bonuses xp from campaign which as we all know helps to break up from only killing pink birds/ladybugs. Oh and you can get crystals even if the beastmen control a zone. Also when you are camping a certain rabbit nm out at the fort it cuts down on the boredom while waiting for it to repop. Because gear that is probably cheaper in the end run then the stuff you can buy with gil is so hard to do if you don't want to be looking like a level ten at 50+. Every five RL days you can get a higher medal if you got enough AN. You didn't do any campaign ops to help get your AN during your following if said guy to get your trust npc? If not then yes it is going to take a longer time. Can do seven ops a RL day each with an increase of AN and xp the higher in rank you go. It was the SoA of its time. How do you get bylad? You do reives you do campaign ops er I mean coalition assignments skirmish ect.

Gov and Fov only get their bigger bangs for you buck if you stay in the zone and don't switch pages because you out leveled the page. Leave gussen mines, oops all your bonuses from completing pages goes away. In small bits yes gov and fov probably will out do a part level synced or not sans either. The op said he couldn't find a place to xp in the past I posted that he could have if he asked someone. That is my point, he could have xped there with his friends but he easily gave up after he died to something and didn't go back. Also no other area has unconditional monsters that will cure you or raise you like the present does. Since you only get pixies in the present if enough people are releasing them at the pond.

[Lithera]

SE said it years ago in a dev response to something that they wanted the player base to use their brains to figure out how things work or to use the wiki if they couldn't omg ask people who have every new thing done right after a patch has come out on their server.

[Ravenmore]

Well-maintained wikis? I am speechless. And googling a wiki and knowing what to look for/where to find it is very different. Getting a new player to google everything they don't understand about ffxi is akin to asking someone who doesn't know Italian to translate a paragraph from English to Italian using google translate. The result is mediocre at best, and an incomprehensible mess at worst.

As an experiment, I went to bluegartr wiki and typed "ZNM" in the search box. The top 5 results I got were Gyroscopic Gear, Gyroscopic Gear, Proto-Ultima, Donggu, FFXI Version Update History. How useful!

And the rest of your paragraph is nonsensical. FFXI having no official windowed mode and being on PlayStation 2 = SE pushing sites like wiki? Forcing players to break ToS and data mine everything because no one knows what does what = having players share information? Furthermore, from which crevice did you pull out "SE's intentions?"



You unwittingly argued for the OP. You think ZNMs are dead, the OP implies that CoP/RoZ/WotG/ToAU are dead by not wanting to do them. Neither can be proven wrong. Whether or not content is dead is subjective, but content road blocks that screw new players is an objective reality in this game.

edit: because I may have misrepresented OP's views regarding expansions

Here is what I got in 2 secs of googling by going typing in ffxi wiki then on the wiki putting in znm, http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=ZNM&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns4=1&ns14=1. Search for ffxi wiki and ffxiclopedia is the first one that pops up which has more information then BG's wiki and in my opinion a better search system as well. What the OP is mad at is he wanted to jump right into endgame and not go though the story and he expected after a month to be at the same level of those that have been playing for years. I find it lazy they can't even be bother to do simple research and can't even understand a wiki.

The great thing about story over battle content is that it is never outdated as battle content like ZNM is so I in fact didn't argued for the OP.

[detlef]

FFXI has never been friendly to anybody who does not have Wiki access. There is not enough information available in-game. You HAVE to be able to know where and how to find things on the internet in order get things done.

Seriously, how would you know how to make a Sea gorget/obi? Get Evoker's Ring? Use the Paintbrush of Souls? Is it some new revelation that the game is hard to play without online resources?

[AppropriateName5786]

FFXI has never been friendly to anybody who does not have Wiki access. There is not enough information available in-game. You HAVE to be able to know where and how to find things on the internet in order get things done.

Seriously, how would you know how to make a Sea gorget/obi? Get Evoker's Ring? Use the Paintbrush of Souls? Is it some new revelation that the game is hard to play without online resources?

Defeatist attitudes never got anyone anywhere. The praise for the NPC Trust system and Sparks of Eminence is almost unanimous, and many other good changes are happening in future patches from what I can tell. Pets are finally getting boosts to dps, and dnc and run will probably see more utility after February's update. This game does not improve like it should because of comments such as yours.

For instance, the recent and announced pet changes could have happened a long time ago, but they didn't because of the backwards community. You'll probably see many posts in the smn forums (even within the last few months) where some players argue that smn is "completely fine" and should stay the way it is. They would use all kinds of faulty logic to argue that "avatar melee attack is fine, perp cost should stay, BP cooldown shouldn't go lower than 45 sec," and the stupidity goes on and on. Now, melee attacks and BP do more damage, and with the 119 sachet from AA fights, BP delay can reach 40 sec. Thank goodness the devs (finally) realized that the design was bad and made these changes, which proved those stubborn smns wrong as well.

[detlef]

Defeatist attitudes never got anyone anywhere. The praise for the NPC Trust system and Sparks of Eminence is almost unanimous, and many other good changes are happening in future patches from what I can tell. Pets are finally getting boosts to dps, and dnc and run will probably see more utility after February's update. This game does not improve like it should because of comments such as yours.

For instance, the recent and announced pet changes could have happened a long time ago, but they didn't because of the backwards community. You'll probably see many posts in the smn forums (even within the last few months) where some players argue that smn is "completely fine" and should stay the way it is. They would use all kinds of faulty logic to argue that "avatar melee attack is fine, perp cost should stay, BP cooldown shouldn't go lower than 45 sec," and the stupidity goes on and on. Now, melee attacks and BP do more damage, and with the 119 sachet from AA fights, BP delay can reach 40 sec. Thank goodness the devs (finally) realized that the design was bad and made these changes, which proved those stubborn smns wrong as well.All those things you mentioned are good changes that don't seem to have anything to do with this discussion.

So... what's to be done about the lack of direction in-game? Something like 14's quest system seems far too difficult to implement in 11. Honestly the easiest way to deal with the issue would be to add links to the various online resources in the server message that pops up when you log in. If you can think of something better that can actually be implemented before 2016, I'm all ears.

[Olor]

The missions can be left alone, as can the quests. What I'd like to see happen is removing them as a roadblock from unrelated content. Examples - I can't progress in voidwatch because I can't go to sky - they could easily allow me to warp there from the voidwatch NPC (as warped to Mount Zhayolm without ever first going to the zone) - but instead they made it so gilgamesh won't give me the CS to upgrade my abyssite even though I did the work. That design decision meant I got locked out of that content while it was being done.

Ditto to the upgraded AF requiring sea. Why do that?

As to people who have finished the missions who support this kind of inane roadblocking - I don't get you. It doesn't take anything away from you to allow folks like me to do COMPLETELY UNRELATED content without soloing a month of cut scenes.

I'm fine with dynamis progression etc. (though again, remove COP requirements) - or anything requiring an "adventurers certificate" - I'm not opposed to all road blocking but not when it is ridiculous.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

So... what's to be done about the lack of direction in-game?

Other than publishing much of this hidden information directly on playonline.com (as has been done for XIV at finalfantasyxiv.com), every map page has a set of green markers that can only be set by NPCs. Use them!

Starter nations have NPCs in place specifically to assist new players learn some of the game mechanics. Some of them even directly suggest completing quests. Have these NPCs offer to set map markers for other NPCs they've heard need help with a quest (i.e. quests for which the player is currently qualified). Worst case scenario: it'd overwrite the work of the Merry Map Markers, which can be reapplied at whim.

Quest NPCs themselves could mark the relevant ???'s on your map if you speak to them a second time.

Outpost NPCs could offer to mark up your map with a few gathering spawns, provided you're the right allegiance.

[bungiefanNA]

Problem is there's really no guide online for this stuff. People don't make the guides, so there's no way to learn. I mean, look, I googled "ffxi wkr" and I get nothing that tells me what it is:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ffxi+wkr&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS547US547&oq=ffxi+wkr

New players don't like asking questions like that of people either. It's intimidating, and also can make you feel stupid for asking, especially when it's potentially a party you want to join up with (first step in is telling them you have no idea what they're talking about?). I might be willing to take the time and post all of this, and talk to people, but do you really think everyone else will? Or rather, anyone else?

That search doesn't limit to pages with just those terms, so you get some pages with just FFXI as the result, and there's a lot more of those. There's not a lot of guides to jargon for a lot of games that people would have unique jargon. Jargon is always an obstacle to someone new to the trade/community. If you don't want to ask the person using the jargon, you ask someone in your LS for clarification. This game also has multilingual jargon, because the JP community came first, so a lot of players will know terms that are abbreviated Japanese, like D2 for Warp II, because it's Dezone II in Japanese. Genkais are limit break quests. Renkei are skillchains. Someone on BlueGartr wrote up a guide to JP phrases and abbreviations so people can respond to those shouts and know what is going on. English has the 3 letter job abbreviations, while Japanese simplifies it to one kanji symbol per job, and not always the first one in the job name.

In short, the way you always learn jargon is by participation in the community using it. Guides are rare for that, and often out of date. I'm sure I'd have a problem with jargon in any other MMO of decent age if I started now. I also wouldn't be afraid to ask someone else.

[detlef]

The map marking system is so unwieldy. Remember when the Adoulin maps had Bivouac numbers truncated? That leads me to believe that anything involving the map marking system will have extreme limitations and be difficult to use. Plus you can only mark what, 20 things? And you can't do anything but stand in place or auto-run while viewing the map? Man, just thinking about it is infuriating.

Anyway, I think that anything involving maps or map marking will take this dev team at least a year to figure out. From a player perspective, looking up information online would be much easier to do than to have to navigate through the map marking system.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

From a player perspective, looking up information online would be much easier to do than to have to navigate through the map marking system.

And when that third-party information is out-of-date or just plain wrong? (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Eco-Warrior_%28San_d%27Oria%29)

[detlef]

And when that third-party information is out-of-date or just plain wrong? (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Eco-Warrior_%28San_d%27Oria%29)Oh no! Even though your example is horrible, it's true that players can only go so far as the Wikis are updated.

Luckily, old content all the way up to Abyssea is well-documented in the Wikia and all endgame events after Abyssea are handled well by BGWiki. If a new player gets to the point where they need to be even more current than that, I expect them to know about Bluegartr.

[Crevox]

Oh no! Even though your example is horrible, it's true that players can only go so far as the Wikis are updated.

Luckily, old content all the way up to Abyssea is well-documented in the Wikia and all endgame events after Abyssea are handled well by BGWiki. If a new player gets to the point where they need to be even more current than that, I expect them to know about Bluegartr.

The problem is it gets to the point where you have to alt tab to do everything. There are hardly any quests in game that you can safely go "I understand what I need to do, I don't need to alt tab." Some of the ones that you THINK you know end up being tricky, and it's like "they tell you go to there, but you can save 3 hours if you go here first" or not even save time, it just would be impossible unless you knew you had to go somewhere else. It also doesn't help that there was apparently some cutscene bug? After nearly every single CoP mission battlefield, there was no cutscene on where to go next: and it took me a long time to figure out that there is supposed to be and the game is just bugged.

Ultimately the "game" becomes you just following a guide... are you really playing the game at that point? Sure, you could not follow the guide, but you'll also get nowhere in the majority of quests, and miss out on tons of gear, so...

Anyways:


What I'd like to see happen is removing them as a roadblock from unrelated content.

For the most part, yes. However, for some things like Mythic weapon quests, I still think there should be updated requirements or a new way to obtain them. Times have changed, and the game has changed.

[Demonjustin]

Ultimately the "game" becomes you just following a guide... are you really playing the game at that point? Sure, you could not follow the guide, but you'll also get nowhere in the majority of quests, and miss out on tons of gear, so...Quite possibly the most simplistic thing that people against an easier quest system, a marker system, or even an ! system fail to grasp it seems. Without these systems the grand majority of people I can assure you are not actually piecing it together on their own, are not simply running around talking to every NPC in sight in order to move forward, no, they are doing just what is constantly mentioned, looking at wiki, looking at BG, detlef mentioned the very same thing above even.

How many people here can honestly say they think that even 5% of the playerbase on this game right now who have played more than a month, use no wiki, use no guide, and do not ask others to look up the information, but rather instead do it on their own by using context clues, knowledge of lore, logic, and the quest's description in order to not only figure out where to go or what to do but also complete missions and quests? If anyone can honestly tell me that they believe 5% of players do that, I honestly think they need to look around, because I know not a single person, nor have I ever met a person, who played without wiki in some form, be it through a PC, through a console Internet Explorer App, through a Phone, through closing the game every step of the way, or even through asking a friend every step of the way what comes next.

I would find it near impossible to believe that even 1% of the playerbase plays this way, and yet, it seems to me that many people think that by adding any of the aforementioned systems would somehow break the quests, break their immersion, and make the experience less enjoyable. It truly comes across as though looking away from the game every 2~3 minutes to find out where to go next was so immersive but to see some !s, markers, or additional information in your quest log, would instantly be nothing but a reminder you are playing a game, and take all of the 'fun' out of doing these quests.

[Afania]

Okay, I just had to point this out.

This is from the other topic. This is a great example of something that would be yelled in game and I would have absolutely no idea what it means. Nothing the wiki or guides can teach me would tell me what this means:



And no newbie player would understand it either.


If you pop in Uldah in FFXIV:ARR as a new lv 5 player, see a /shout like this

"Anyone know if you need full CT/DL gear and HQ relic to do T5 or you can get away with 3/5 DL?"

Putting my money on the table that no new player can understand wtf that question is about too.

Every MMO has it's own term that not every new player would understand. Not every MMO is on the same lv when it comes complexity of game mechanics too. Once someone told me it takes years to fully understand EQ, but it only takes a few months to fully understand WoW. It took me about a month or two to understand at least 80% of the game mechanics in ARR, barring the jobs I haven't lv and formula undiscovered. It took me years to understand 80% of the game mechanics in FFXI, barring the jobs I haven't lv to max lv/formula undiscovered. Not understand everything isn't unique to FFXI, but in every MMORPG. It IS slightly more complicated than games like ARR, but it's an EQ clone, so it's not a surprise. It is not a bad thing either. I find games too easy to figure out everything isn't as fun as comlicated game.




Thanks for calling me retarded.

This is the best community: a fine example of why I don't PM people asking what WKR is

*First time I joined instance runs in SWTOR one guy made a mistake, and another guy called him retard and voted kick, 3 min later I made a mistake too then same guy called me out.

*First time I solo queue PVP in GW2, the team lost then another guy called me out for having the lowest PVP rank.

*My FC mate in FFXIV once complained about how some guy in DF pt used rude words on his friend, and was in elitist mode because they were new to the instance.


I can name a lot more examples in almost every MMO I've played. I've played MMO for years, participate in several online gaming community for years, I've never seen any gaming community with zero negativity. NEVER. All games has negative opinion, all forums/online community about gaming has negativity. You can tolerate negativity in other forum/game, but you can't tolerate FFXI? Or are you having unrealistic expectation toward FFXI, that some how it's a magical land free from the curse of online gaming community?

Or you never meet any other player being rude/mean in other MMO? I can't believe it really. Unless you never interact with others.

Furture more, according to my experience with online community, negative attitude would spawn more negative opinions. You started negative/hostile attitude on the forum first, blamed community for every suffering you had in game(even though it's mostly because this game isn't your cup of tea), then somehow expect everyone reply something with a happy positive attitude?

It's not going to happen, it's not going to happen in any online community. Never seen it happen in any online community, unless you live in rainbow happyland.

I honestly don't know why you have such extremely unrealistic expectation toward this game that you have to keep posting complains after complain. Half of the complain wasn't even legit. Complaining about the lack of pt and lack of new player tutorial may be a bit legit. Complaining about the long term goal MAYBE can be legit, since long term goal is kinda unique to FFXI. Complaining about forum users reply your negative post with negativity AND not knowing every term in a MMORPG? Unless you can convince me that negativity attitude never exist in another MMO, or you can understand every MMO mechanics as a new player in another AAA title, you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Can't blame other people for replying with something negative.

You digged your own grave.

[Crevox]

You digged your own grave.

Please stop posting in my topic. I've said this time and time again, go away.

Reported you this time, I've already asked nicely for you to stop harassing me, multiple times.

[Afania]

Quite possibly the most simplistic thing that people against an easier quest system, a marker system, or even an ! system fail to grasp it seems. Without these systems the grand majority of people I can assure you are not actually piecing it together on their own, are not simply running around talking to every NPC in sight in order to move forward, no, they are doing just what is constantly mentioned, looking at wiki, looking at BG, detlef mentioned the very same thing above even.

How many people here can honestly say they think that even 5% of the playerbase on this game right now who have played more than a month, use no wiki, use no guide, and do not ask others to look up the information, but rather instead do it on their own by using context clues, knowledge of lore, logic, and the quest's description in order to not only figure out where to go or what to do but also complete missions and quests? If anyone can honestly tell me that they believe 5% of players do that, I honestly think they need to look around, because I know not a single person, nor have I ever met a person, who played without wiki in some form, be it through a PC, through a console Internet Explorer App, through a Phone, through closing the game every step of the way, or even through asking a friend every step of the way what comes next.

I would find it near impossible to believe that even 1% of the playerbase plays this way, and yet, it seems to me that many people think that by adding any of the aforementioned systems would somehow break the quests, break their immersion, and make the experience less enjoyable. It truly comes across as though looking away from the game every 2~3 minutes to find out where to go next was so immersive but to see some !s, markers, or additional information in your quest log, would instantly be nothing but a reminder you are playing a game, and take all of the 'fun' out of doing these quests.

No, pop-up window and ! on the map in ANY RPG is terrible, no question asked. ARR annoyed the hell out of me with that pop-up window while I'm killing stuff.
That giant ! on every NPC and the map is the same. The best way should be providing hint through dialogue. You don't NEED silly pop-up window nor ! on the map to guide you to next goal if dialogue is done properly. Whoever can't tolerate a RPG without pop-up window and ! on the map would already quit and play WoW/ARR ages ago.

I don't want anything that reminded me I'm playing a game. This is a roleplaying game(aka life simulator/virtual world), I want game design that would create an illusion that I'm not playing a game.

[Bukota]

I started playing alongside a few friends. One came back to the game, the other started fresh with me. I had another friend who wanted to play, but he quit during the trial. The friend who started fresh with me quit after playing for one month; he does not want to re-sub. He's a dedicated MMO player, and I was driving him/trying to push him to do various things, and telling him how important they are, but he didn't end up completing them.

-Level 99 THF, didn't go to Abyssea until 75
-Nation rank 2
-Got to Aht Urhgan to unlock Corsair, did not touch the missions
-Did not touch Chains of Promathia
-Did not get ANY AF, not even the low level
-Did not max Gobbiebag, no other important achievements to note
-Never touched Adoulin

... and he quit. Why? Cause a lot of this is boring. It's work. New players do not want to, and should not have to, go through all this. I was dedicated, and drove myself to do it to be a good SMN. If he isn't willing to do any of that, do you really expect any other new players to do it? It doesn't help that the entire thing is NOT friendly at all unless you alt tab and know where guides are to things. Most of the quests or missions don't even tell you where to go next. It's nice when you can actually think you know where to go, but that's honestly not that often, especially when they say things like "go get me this item" and offer NO EXPLANATION as to where to get it (limit break quests you are the best). There are some quests that they don't even tell you the item names, you seriously just have to guess or something (evoker's ring quest is ONE example). There is almost NO WAY I would be able to convince anyone else I know to play if they know they're gonna have to go through any of this.

I'm going to say that the old players need to stop looking at this game through nostalgia goggles. Times have changed. The game is not the same as it was before. You need to accept change, and move forward, or this game is going to suffer. There are a LOT of things that could be changed, and should be changed, for the game to move forward and prosper for years to come. However, it doesn't help when the majority of the community is straight up rude to new players, or thinks that it's right for them to "suffer the same way they did in the past." The response to practically anything I say is "YOU KNOW IT WAS SO MUCH HARDER IN THE PAST, YOU SHOULD STOP COMPLAINING." I spent a lot of time arguing/discussing various topics (mythic weapons, mission requirements, etc) with people on this forum, and boy, it's been an uphill battle. So many people want all the requirements to stay, and if you don't like it, "too bad this isn't the game for you." I still think this quote is hilarious:



I find it mind boggling that there are actually people, players, on this forum, that are telling newbies they should quit because they're finding it difficult. You guys are not doing much for your community, or your game, and yet you complain all the time that the servers are lacking people. This does not help. It also doesn't help that everyone in game is extremely quiet and does not want to talk to anyone unless you're already friends with them, and finding a group for anything is really difficult. Rarely do I see shouts for PUGs, and when I tried to join, yeah, you know what happened. I ended up making my own linkshell and shouted recruitment to try to get other new players to join so I could help them out and we could all talk. It worked for a while, I got about 6 other members; only 1 still plays (the others quit I assume, they haven't logged in for weeks).



It's almost as if the people commenting in this thread haven't even read the original post.

This isn't about one player, one job, one mission, or even a wiki.

It's about the fact that recruiting friends to play this game is a lost cause in the current state of the game. The average player will probably spend at most a month here, because, as Crevox pointed out, they will be expected to jump through multiple months worth of hoops to even have a shot at joining the worst possible shout group of players that will have almost no chance of success anyway.

Meanwhile, they will be asked to endure all of this under the derision of players like Afania.




I honestly don't know why you have such extremely unrealistic expectation toward this game that you have to keep posting complains after complain. Half of the complain wasn't even legit. Complaining about the lack of pt and lack of new player tutorial may be a bit legit. Complaining about the long term goal MAYBE can be legit, since long term goal is kinda unique to FFXI. Complaining about forum users reply your negative post with negativity AND not knowing every term in a MMORPG? Unless you can convince me that negativity attitude never exist in another MMO, or you can understand every MMO mechanics as a new player in another AAA title, you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Can't blame other people for replying with something negative.

You digged your own grave.



The thread isn't about one persons complaints.

It's about the systematic failings of the game that make it repugnant to new players.

NEWS FLASH, with server populations dwindling, the answer is to get new players or go out of business.

If you don't believe this can happen, please google for City of Heroes.

Hopefully you will come back when you have "digged" something up, lol.

[Bukota]

No, pop-up window and ! on the map in ANY RPG is terrible, no question asked. ARR annoyed the hell out of me with that pop-up window while I'm killing stuff.
That giant ! on every NPC and the map is the same. The best way should be providing hint through dialogue. You don't NEED silly pop-up window nor ! on the map to guide you to next goal if dialogue is done properly. Whoever can't tolerate a RPG without pop-up window and ! on the map would already quit and play WoW/ARR ages ago.

I don't want anything that reminded me I'm playing a game. This is a roleplaying game(aka life simulator/virtual world), I want game design that would create an illusion that I'm not playing a game.

Does not even come close to solving the problem outlined in the original post. Not even worth debating, but if you must, start your own thread.

The problems detailed here are far more grave than the lame-duck solution you are debating would solve.

There seems to be this myopic focus on the smaller issues, when the issue here is much bigger and more simple:

Only a microscopic percentage of the people that pick this game up today will find a reason to play it longer than a few months.

As Draylo pointed out, he has all but stopped helping people, because whenever he does, they just quit anyway.

[Lithera]

Maybe someone should report you for the please don't post in any thread I post in attitude. Not saying I agree with who that is pointed to as one can see in the QoL thread lol. Maybe you shouldn't set your self up so easily for them to try and bring in some common sense? Also now you complain about them after they have already had maybe a page and a half debate with others in the thread? Or did you somehow not see those and just this one? Unless they get perma band from the forums good luck with them not posting in a thread you either started or already posted in.

[Afania]

It's almost as if the people commenting in this thread haven't even read the original post.

This isn't about one player, one job, one mission, or even a wiki.

It's about the fact that recruiting friends to play this game is a lost cause in the current state of the game. The average player will probably spend at most a month here, because, as Crevox pointed out, they will be expected to jump through multiple months worth of hoops to even have a shot at joining the worst possible shout group of players that will have almost no chance of success anyway.

Meanwhile, they will be asked to endure all of this under the derision of players like Afania.



The thread isn't about one persons complaints.

It's about the systematic failings of the game that make it repugnant to new players.

NEWS FLASH, with server populations dwindling, the answer is to get new players or go out of business.

If you don't believe this can happen, please google for City of Heroes.

Hopefully you will come back when you have "digged" something up, lol.

But half of Crevox's complains, such as bad community and not understanding every term, applies to other MMO too, what'd you say about it?

Every MMO would die at one point of time, new player friendly or not, no MMO can retain player forever. What's your point? Every MMO would have fans/haters, no MMO can please everyone, so what's your point again?

[Afania]

Does not even come close to solving the problem outlined in the original post. Not even worth debating, but if you must, start your own thread.

The problems detailed here are far more grave than the lame-duck solution you are debating would solve.

There seems to be this myopic focus on the smaller issues, when the issue here is much bigger and more simple:

Only a microscopic percentage of the people that pick this game up today will find a reason to play it longer than a few months.

As Draylo pointed out, he has all but stopped helping people, because whenever he does, they just quit anyway.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with new player experience needs more streamline.

But pop-up window isn't the best solution.

[Crevox]

Maybe someone should report you for the please don't post in any thread I post in attitude. Not saying I agree with who that is pointed to as one can see in the QoL thread lol. Maybe you shouldn't set your self up so easily for them to try and bring in some common sense? Also now you complain about them after they have already had maybe a page and a half debate with others in the thread? Or did you somehow not see those and just this one? Unless they get perma band from the forums good luck with them not posting in a thread you either started or already posted in.

I've argued with this person time and time again in multiple threads. They harass me, and even after saying I have absolutely no interest in what they have to say, they continue to post and harass me. I figured ignoring it would make it go away, and yet, here it is, still posting to me despite me just straight up ignoring it.

I've taken all the correct steps to avoid harassment: asked them to stop, told them I have no interest in speaking to them, and ignored them: and yet they continue.

Now please, I would like to get back on topic.

[Afania]

Started a controversial thread on a forum, and don't want to listen to any different opinion or else it's "having an attitude/harrassment". Humm.

Get back to the topic, I disagree with your opinion. This is not a harassment, this is the right of any forum user.

[Crevox]

Started a controversial thread on a forum, and don't want to listen to any different opinion or else it's "having an attitude/harrassment". Humm.

Get back to the topic, I disagree with your opinion. This is not a harassment, this is the right of any forum user.

You see, you don't get it. I care about everyone's opinion except for yours. I don't care about anything you have to say. You can post and talk to them all you want, but stop harassing me.

It's that simple.

[Lithera]

Which is what exactly? That you don't ask questions in game because of one time you were ignored? That you get upset after a group gets on you for doing something wrong or didn't understand something because you didn't again ask things or speak up when the group was still forming? Or is it that your fave job isn't wanted by many groups for certain things? Or the short hand that is used in game because the game only allows us so much room per post to convey what we want to do and what jobs we are looking for, can be confusing to new people specially if they don't ask what all of it means, before the game thinks we are spaming? That somehow it's bad game design to make people use their brains or use another site or the mini sights the company has put together and breaks in game believability?
Please tell me what exactly is the topic of this thread after people started to poke holes in your complaints and counter arguments long before she even joined the thread.

[Afania]

You see, you don't get it. I care about everyone's opinion except for yours. I don't care about anything you have to say. You can post and talk to them all you want, but stop harassing me.

It's that simple.

I don't care if you care about my opinion or not, you're presenting your opinion to all the forum reader and dev, I'm presenting mine. This is how the forum works. If I find flaws in your logic, I will present my opinion.

I don't think all my opinion are based on calling you "something", but entirely based on the logical flaw in your post. This is not "harassing" you, this is against your opinion but not you as a person.

If you can't tolerate your opinion being challenaged by opposite opinion, don't post.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Click their name
Click "View Profile"
Click "Add to Ignore List"

[Crevox]

Click their name
Click "View Profile"
Click "Add to Ignore List"


Thank you very much. I wasn't aware this forum had that feature.

[Renaissance2K]

IIf you don't believe this can happen, please google for City of Heroes.
City of Heroes (R.I.P.) is not a good example. It was a profitable game, but the parent company (NCSoft) owns tons and tons of free-to-play MMOs, and compared to some other properties, the numbers weren't that impressive. Let's clarify that: it was making money, but not ridiculous amounts of money.

Compare that to Square-Enix, which only maintains three MMOs; one of which is brand new (and really expensive, though doing well), and another is a Wii exclusive. Square-Enix has said for ages - even after the big population drops - that FFXI was one of their most profitable investments, and even if the overall population drops further, they still have a lot of room to downsize resources. Everyone forgets that we Anglophones are really just squatters on what's essentially a Japanese game with lots of Japanese players.

The "implementing [unnamed feature] will increase subscription numbers and bring people back to the game" reminds me a lot of when corporate lobbyists conclude a merger proposal or response to a bill with "...will create jobs and encourage innovation" even when common sense says it won't.

[Afania]

Meanwhile, they will be asked to endure all of this under the derision of players like Afania.


Also I'm not sure why I'm suddenly the synonyms of terrible group of player unwilling to change and bash against every noob. Only opinion I ever disagree in entire discussion is killing the long term goal(which doesn't affect new players at all) and pop-up window + !(which doesn't exist in every RPG title, it's not needed in RPG games). Rest are against flaws and holes in opinion that's irrelevant to the topic too.



City of Heroes (R.I.P.) is not a good example. It was a profitable game, but the parent company (NCSoft) owns tons and tons of free-to-play MMOs, and compared to some other properties, the numbers weren't that impressive. Let's clarify that: it was making money, but not ridiculous amounts of money.

Compare that to Square-Enix, which only maintains three MMOs; one of which is brand new (and really expensive, though doing well), and another is a Wii exclusive. Square-Enix has said for ages - even after the big population drops - that FFXI was one of their most profitable investments, and even if the overall population drops further, they still have a lot of room to downsize resources. Everyone forgets that we Anglophones are really just squatters on what's essentially a Japanese game with lots of Japanese players.

The "implementing [unnamed feature] will increase subscription numbers and bring people back to the game" reminds me a lot of when corporate lobbyists conclude a merger proposal or response to a bill with "...will create jobs and encourage innovation" even when common sense says it won't.

SE had Fantasy Earth Zero too, it's more than 3 MMO excluding mobile titles.

[Renaissance2K]

SE had Fantasy Earth Zero too, it's more than 3 MMO excluding mobile titles.
"had" being the operative word there.

[Bukota]

City of Heroes (R.I.P.) is not a good example. It was a profitable game, but the parent company (NCSoft) owns tons and tons of free-to-play MMOs, and compared to some other properties, the numbers weren't that impressive. Let's clarify that: it was making money, but not ridiculous amounts of money.

Compare that to Square-Enix, which only maintains three MMOs; one of which is brand new (and really expensive, though doing well), and another is a Wii exclusive. Square-Enix has said for ages - even after the big population drops - that FFXI was one of their most profitable investments, and even if the overall population drops further, they still have a lot of room to downsize resources. Everyone forgets that we Anglophones are really just squatters on what's essentially a Japanese game with lots of Japanese players.

The "implementing [unnamed feature] will increase subscription numbers and bring people back to the game" reminds me a lot of when corporate lobbyists conclude a merger proposal or response to a bill with "...will create jobs and encourage innovation" even when common sense says it won't.



Excellent points, and I agree with you that CoH and FFXI are not 100% analogous. But at least we agree on one thing: CoH was a great game that added alot to the genre, and its shuttering was a loss many felt.

I personally would never want to see that happen to FFXI, and I suspect this is something we can ALL agree on in this thread.

I'm not making some doom and gloom prediction that FFXI is on the brink of despair. I too agree with you that, historically, over the past 4 years the game has been a reliable revenue generator for Square-Enix while it sorted its affairs with FFXIV.

But the numbers today are much smaller than they were 4 years ago. I don't think anyone would argue it couldn possibly be the revenue engine it once was.

When I see the concerted effort by the dev team to add quality of life updates to the game, that tells me that the management is aware that their golden goose flying the coup would mean off with their heads.

Rewind 4 years though for a moment. This was the onset of the greatest development glut in the history of this game. There is a literal lacuna of positive developments being rolled out for a solid 2 year period from this point.

Compare that to now, where game-changing systems are flooding in at a break-neck pace.

There is simply no comparisson between something like Meeble Burrows and the Trust system.

They are on two different quantitative planes. And there is a reason for this. Management is aware that this game needs to shape up or ship out.

And they have commanded the rank-and-file justly.

[Bukota]

Also I'm not sure why I'm suddenly the synonyms of terrible group of player unwilling to change and bash against every noob. Only opinion I ever disagree in entire discussion is killing the long term goal(which doesn't affect new players at all) and pop-up window + !(which doesn't exist in every RPG title, it's not needed in RPG games). Rest are against flaws and holes in opinion that's irrelevant to the topic too.



I apologize for singling you out. Having re-read your posts, at least you chose the high road versus some of the more cruel comments like "go play WoW" that seem to be cropping up in these threads.

And while I totally agree that you have the right to come here and voice your opinion, I think the context of this discussion has become far too focused on specific "solutions" that really don't solve the core problem.

If I may elaborate:

I'm asking the question "what would it take for me to approach my old friends who quit and ask them to re-join without laughing in my face?"

Well...

Travel times have always been a problem for most friends who quit. The few times we could both get on to play together would be absorbed by the meaningless minutae of getting to the same place at the same time with the right jobs.

Home point warps are an example of something the dev team has implemented to show that they empathize with this concern.

But this is merely an example.

It is one solution to a myriad of problems.

There are still overarching issues with the design of the game.

Let me give you one example. "New", "Fun", AND "Rewarding" content is added on a regular basis currently. But it is all designed for level 99 players in iLvL gear.

I'm not necessarily opposed to that, but consider these hypothetical friends I want to invite to the game.

They hear about some of this great content like what a Wildkeeper Reive is and can't wait to try it.

There's just one problem.

They need to do LB 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9; build fame for various quests; max gobbie bag to carry gear; level up to 99 along this process; simultaneously advance through missions to meet various requirements; unlock all sorts of access through wild means; level things up such as automatons and skills...

Ahhh just eff it...I'm not interested in coming back.

A lot of those things are just part of the game and need to be accepted, don't get me wrong. Skilling up has always been a core component of the game, and should continue to be. The same goes for automaton skills and the like.

But adding a key item to resolve needing 3 people to open a door in Garliage, and failing to do the same for the Necropolis is just one of many examples where the dev team for this game just don't get it.

See the bug report I posted yesterday for another example.

You admit in version update notes that you know a simple animation is broken and needs to be fixed, and then you just never do anything about it.

Now

If you don't believe SE is partially attuned to these facts, hmmm...

I mean Trust and RoE are perfect examples of them generating new content that scales well across a multitude of levels.

Moblin Maze Mongers was never a terribly popular event, and had flaws due to congestion, but it was a GREAT event in terms of scalability. With MMM and level sync, I could have my level 30 friend who rejoined the game play with my existing level 75 party.

In that regard it was a huge success. But more importantly proves my point that it is very possible to develop content that encourages cooperation between the many different strata of players in this game.

But it requires those 3 magical components: "Novelty", "Fun", and "Rewards."

So no, I'm not saying that I think adding map markers or reducing bloodpact timers will solve my major grievances.

But the measurably declining server populations should be a wake up call for everyone that the ship needs to be righted.

[Afania]

I apologize for singling you out. Having re-read your posts, at least you chose the high road versus some of the more cruel comments like "go play WoW" that seem to be cropping up in these threads.



"Go play WoW" isn't exactly wrong though, no game can please everyone, and not every direction change can please everyone either. If some players are unwilling to do all the LB/bag quests or long walk to another city, what else you gonna do? Get rid of all those requirement? When I was new I enjoyed all the hardwork to get fame/bag/LB quests done, getting lost in the dungeons or long walk to another city, it's a lot of work, but also feel like living in another world instead of kill easy quest mobs in a small game world and reach max lv. I'd feel sad if new player won't be able to experience such aspect again, I mean I'd be sad if I can't experience all those as a new player starting in 2010 or after. I don't even think this game would be that appealing if you have to skip every newb process and jump straight to the endgame.

Just because some player may want to jump straight to the endgame, doesn't mean everyone want the same way. I started EQ fairly recently, and I was kinda sad that I can no longer experience how EQ originally was.

Who can determine what's right game direction, who can determine what's wrong? Sub number? Player's happiness? And who has right to claim their happiness is the right direction?

There are specific aspects I truely enjoy in FFXI, I don't want to see it go away, not just for my own taste, but maybe out there there's someone else also enjoy the same thing, wanting to start FFXI as a new player, looking for same experience I had that no longer exists. If another player wants to play WoW, which is the better solution? Turn FFXI into WoW to please them, or tell them to play WoW so FFXI can stay FFXI, and potential new players that want to play real FFXI can still get a chance?

As I said before, changes are fine, as long as FFXI is still FFXI, that doesn't mean every changes are necessary good decision. And that doesn't make whoever defending for FFXI direction are stubborn/hating new players/elitist/wanting others to suffer either.

I know the player base gets smaller, I don't think any MMORPG can keep player forever, I'm not denying the change. But there are something that's unique to FFXI that I loved, that I'll continue to defend for it. If someone else doesn't like FFXI being FFXI, besides "go to WoW", what else do you want me to say?

I don't want others to "suffer" when they play a game, if they feel like they're "suffering" for fame/LB/quests/gobbie bag/walk, my suggestion is to go away. However, if dev turn FFXI into something else by removing everything, those who enjoy doing hard work in another world won't have many choice left on the market. Now that's real suffering for those wanted hardcore gameplay. Like how I was sad that I no longer get to enjoy real EQ.

[Bukota]

"

I know the player base gets smaller, I don't think any MMORPG can keep player forever, I'm not denying the change. But there are something that's unique to FFXI that I loved, that I'll continue to defend for it. If someone else doesn't like FFXI being FFXI, besides "go to WoW", what else do you want me to say?



I'm curious what you'd say to someone who came FROM WoW to try "your" game.

Here is a game that came out within a year of FFXI.

Examine the graph closely:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQygQwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FEve_Online%23Accounts_and_subscriptions&ei=5N3zUrm9PIS-sQTd5YCoCA&usg=AFQjCNGO2_A8DXfc2vhY2LHxJL0cCw5ukw

The reason why the game continues to add players year after year is a topic too exhaustive for this discussion.

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

Brilliant.

[Lithera]

Maybe because the home base only recently stoped making ps2s let alone plays mostly on it because the Xbox never sold well over there. How else would you explain why they only got a ps2 version of SoA?

[Renaissance2K]

In the Before Time, we didn't need to pass quite as many hard checkpoints - Limit Break quests, mission quests, zone unlocks, etc. - to get caught up with the rest of the game veterans. But the checkpoints were a Hell of a lot more difficult because of the lower level cap, and leveling was also an incredibly-large time investment.

At least, now, when you're running around with that shopping list of prerequisites, the scenery is changing. Compare that to hundreds of hours of attacking the same pink birds over and over again. Assuming you could get a party invite in the first place.

[bungiefanNA]

Please stop posting in my topic. I've said this time and time again, go away.

Reported you this time, I've already asked nicely for you to stop harassing me, multiple times.

By putting speech in the public view, you give up control of that speech in how other people react to it. The forum or thread aren't yours, and when you post something, you are opening up that post to response in doing so. That is the responsibility of speaking in public. Other people are free to be offended or not, but they are allowed to express their reaction as much as you are allowed to express yours. By responding, you are feeding the conflict, when ignoring it can let it die down.

Did you ever get a social shell and try communicating with them? That's my first order of business when I end up without an active shell. It's really hard to play this type of game without some sort of support network. MMOs just grow so much, and this is an ancient one in regards to this genre.

[Afania]

I'm curious what you'd say to someone who came FROM WoW to try "your" game.

Here is a game that came out within a year of FFXI.

Examine the graph closely:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQygQwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FEve_Online%23Accounts_and_subscriptions&ei=5N3zUrm9PIS-sQTd5YCoCA&usg=AFQjCNGO2_A8DXfc2vhY2LHxJL0cCw5ukw

The reason why the game continues to add players year after year is a topic too exhaustive for this discussion.

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

Brilliant.

The reason why EVE online can retain players, is because EVE online is sandbox MMORPG, and there aren't enough sandbox RPG competition on the market. Also by nature, sandbox gameplay are not just "beat the content then quit" kind of game. Showing a graph of a sandbox MMO doesn't really show anything, because FFXI is themepark and it's not even same genre.


Theme park has bigger market, but every title are competing against one million F2P titles coming out every year, hundred and hundred of asian titles pop every year too. Pretty much any new theme park MMO can't retain sub because they're competing against one million other titles AND by the nature of gameplay, players would play through their content and quit.

FFXI is just like any theme park MMO, but with different flavor. It's directly competing against games like WoW/FFXIV, there isn't much you can do if the sub numbers drop.

[Demonjustin]

I don't want anything that reminded me I'm playing a game. This is a roleplaying game(aka life simulator/virtual world), I want game design that would create an illusion that I'm not playing a game.Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience. If you honestly think there is anything immersive about the fact that the grand overwhelming majority of players will always turn to wiki just to find out where to go, then your sense of immersion in games is laughable. An immersive game keeps you playing it, keeps you enthralled and focused on it rather than forcing you out of it, any game that gives you so little direction that you must leave the game and look elsewhere for information on what to do is not an immersive game but rather the exact opposite, its a game constantly reminding you that is just what it is, a game, because it constantly pulls you from the experience just to look up what comes next in your line of tasks you have to do that the game simply did not explain.


Every MMO would die at one point of time, new player friendly or not, no MMO can retain player forever. What's your point?I suppose since the game can not live forever and it will die eventually no matter what we do or say, we may as well not even try to improve the experience for new players trying to come to the game and enjoy it, rather, we should just leave it as it is even if it dies sooner rather than later as a result. That doesn't sound stupid at all.


There are specific aspects I truly enjoy in FFXI, I don't want to see it go away, not just for my own taste, but maybe out there there's someone else also enjoy the same thing, wanting to start FFXI as a new player, looking for same experience I had that no longer exists. If another player wants to play WoW, which is the better solution? Turn FFXI into WoW to please them, or tell them to play WoW so FFXI can stay FFXI, and potential new players that want to play real FFXI can still get a chance?What if you are someone like me? Someone who has no care for WoW or its gameplay style yet likes the FFXI combat, yet at the same time hates the poor effort/reward, time sinks, and overall vague attitude of FFXI and the majority of its quests, missions, and overall content, but likes some quality of life aspects that games like WoW have that I find make a game not only more accessible, but more enjoyable. What if someone like me wants a middle ground? Are we simply screwed and left with either option A or option B, neither of which we will truly be satisfied with?


As I said before, changes are fine, as long as FFXI is still FFXI, that doesn't mean every changes are necessary good decision. And that doesn't make whoever defending for FFXI direction are stubborn/hating new players/elitist/wanting others to suffer either.This is a truly meaningless thing to say, changes are ok, but FFXI has to say FFXI, which literally has no meaning to anyone but you because only you are determining what you think makes FFXI unique and great. So saying this is really can mean nothing to me, because you see, to me FFXI is what it is because of the community, the friends I have, the combat, the Final Fantasy name, and its story, none of which in any way would be affected detrimentally via changes to the quest system, certain quests or routes of obtaining certain items such as Mythics, or making this game more accessible to newer or returning players by making it more understandable and much less wiki-reliant. In fact, I would see a much greater benefit from it, I have had friends in the past either quit, or never even start with the game due to the amount of things that must be done in order to reach a level where they would find the game actually enjoyable.

For a few instances, my friend CJ who got me into FFXI used to play more than I ever did, he had an awesome time on the game, but when he got a job that tied down his time he was unable to play as much and thus, fell behind, due to the high time requirement everything had at the time he simply quit after a bit. Nowadays CJ has expressed some want to return, or that he would not mind returning, but the fact that he always had to look things up constantly on wiki, that everything is still so time taking, and that everyone is so far ahead, acts as nothing more than a deterrent from his return, after all, the first month of his coming back would be spent doing nothing more than relearning that which he has forgotten and trying to reintegrate himself into the content.

We can argue all day what makes FFXI what it is, different from most games, but in the end thats all you and I will ever argue about it seems, a matter of what things actually are, because we see things massively different. From what I understand it seems as though I see this as a game meant for enjoyment, while you see it as a second life, I see Mythics taking a month of constant work to make as a long term goal, you see 3 months of near constant work a long term goal and anything less would be removing said long term goals, I see a quest !, marker, or menu system as beneficial and a way to remove the need to have wiki up at all times, you find it as something that destroys what would be an immersive experience. In the end, the world you live in and the FFXI you play seems vastly different to my own.


I don't want others to "suffer" when they play a game, if they feel like they're "suffering" for fame/LB/quests/gobbie bag/walk, my suggestion is to go away. However, if dev turn FFXI into something else by removing everything, those who enjoy doing hard work in another world won't have many choice left on the market. Now that's real suffering for those wanted hardcore gameplay. Like how I was sad that I no longer get to enjoy real EQ.In that respect someone like myself must also be suffering in the same way but right now rather than in a hypothetical scenario since as I explained this game does not meet what expectations I have for a game, and is in no way perfect, while many changes I want go against your views on what makes FFXI what it is, and I can find no game that caters to what I am looking for in a game exactly, the best 2 options seem to be this, and WoW, and as a result I go with the lesser of 2 evils which is this. So if it is suffering to be without the ability to find a game that meets exactly what you are looking for, I am already there, and if it is suffering to play a game, try to enjoy it, but know that it isn't what you truly want, while also having no way to change it to be more similar to what you do want, then I am experiencing that as well.

[detlef]

Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience. If you honestly think there is anything immersive about the fact that the grand overwhelming majority of players will always turn to wiki just to find out where to go, then your sense of immersion in games is laughable. An immersive game keeps you playing it, keeps you enthralled and focused on it rather than forcing you out of it, any game that gives you so little direction that you must leave the game and look elsewhere for information on what to do is not an immersive game but rather the exact opposite, its a game constantly reminding you that is just what it is, a game, because it constantly pulls you from the experience just to look up what comes next in your line of tasks you have to do that the game simply did not explain.!'s seem like they would be a bitch to program, and I still think that using map markers would be unwieldy and difficult. I love what they've done with the Quality of Life stuff lately, but since there's already a workaround for quest issues (online resources), I'd much rather they focus on other things rather than wait a year or three while they re-jigger every single quest/mission npc in the game.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

I imagine an engine overhaul would be their next long-term project when (read "if") they ever finish the new PC UI.

[Bukota]

I imagine an engine overhaul would be their next long-term project when (read "if") they ever finish the new PC UI.

They would need evidence that their current efforts and investment could really produce a meaningful uptick in subscribership.

It would be so much easier to just slowly fade into obscurity.

It is at least refreshing to see that Matsui appears determined to do anything but that.

It'd be nice to be a fly on the wall.

[Bukota]

The reason why EVE online can retain players, is because EVE online is sandbox MMORPG, and there aren't enough sandbox RPG competition on the market. Also by nature, sandbox gameplay are not just "beat the content then quit" kind of game. Showing a graph of a sandbox MMO doesn't really show anything, because FFXI is themepark and it's not even same genre.


Theme park has bigger market, but every title are competiting against one million F2P titles coming out every year, hundred and hundred of asian titles pop every year too. Pretty much any new theme park MMO can't retain sub because they're competiting against one million other titles AND by the nature of gameplay, players would play through their content and quit.

FFXI is just like any theme park MMO, but with different flavor. It's directly competing against games like WoW/FFXIV, there isn't much you can do if the sub numbers drop.

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

[Bukota]

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

They've also never let fear of change get in the way of making their game better.

It has taken courage in the past, and they've made mistakes. But the effort is what counts when you are selling the relationship of service provider, which is what MMOs are really about.

[Camiie]

"Go play WoW" isn't exactly wrong though,

Nine times out of ten, as in Draylo's case, it's analogous to "shut up and go away because I don't want to see opposing opinions." I can't think of a way that can be construed as a kind sentiment.



no game can please everyone, and not every direction change can please everyone either. If some players are unwilling to do all the LB/bag quests or long walk to another city, what else you gonna do? Get rid of all those requirement?

As a dev you have to try and find a happy medium. You're framing it as an all-or-nothing equation, and it's not. Maybe some requirements truly have outlived their usefulness, and really do do more to hinder the game than add to the appeal of it. Really they've been adjusting the game since day one, and rightfully so, and I'm sure some of those were changes you appreciated because they made your experience flow better.



When I was new I enjoyed all the hardwork to get fame/bag/LB quests done, getting lost in the dungeons or long walk to another city, it's a lot of work, but also feel like living in another world instead of kill easy quest mobs in a small game world and reach max lv. I'd feel sad if new player won't be able to experience such aspect again, I mean I'd be sad if I can't experience all those as a new player starting in 2010 or after. I don't even think this game would be that appealing if you have to skip every newb process and jump straight to the endgame.

But they can't experience the same game you did, because the population isn't there to support it. If COP were still the same as it was in 2004 no new players would be able to complete it. The requirements HAD to change or it would be an insurmountable roadblock no matter how dedicated the new player was.


Just because some player may want to jump straight to the endgame, doesn't mean everyone want the same way. I started EQ fairly recently, and I was kinda sad that I can no longer experience how EQ originally was.

Who can determine what's right game direction, who can determine what's wrong? Sub number? Player's happiness? And who has right to claim their happiness is the right direction?


Everyone who pays the bill and plays the game has that right. You, me, the OP, and anyone else you can think of whether you or I agree with their ideas or not. No other answer makes any sense at all.

[Xantavia]

It's almost as if the people commenting in this thread haven't even read the original post.

This isn't about one player, one job, one mission, or even a wiki.

It's about the fact that recruiting friends to play this game is a lost cause in the current state of the game. The average player will probably spend at most a month here, because, as Crevox pointed out, they will be expected to jump through multiple months worth of hoops to even have a shot at joining the worst possible shout group of players that will have almost no chance of success anyway.
Why would recruiting friends be a detriment to enjoying the game? I suppose it can feel like a slog if as a brand new player your only goal is to do the current endgame. But there is 11 years worth of content, so what is the rush for new players. Find a few friends, make your own shell, and enjoy the game on your terms. Finish Zilart with them and get some gear from the sky gods. Is it outdated in terms of Aldouin content? Yes it is. But it can be great gear when you guys decide to knock out CoP. Get your rajas ring, supponomi, and brutal earring, then look into WotG. Abyssea will open up new gear options and let fight all kinds of mobs.

Just because the content isn't new for the existing playerbase, it is still new for new players.

[Bukota]

Why would recruiting friends be a detriment to enjoying the game? I suppose it can feel like a slog if as a brand new player your only goal is to do the current endgame. But there is 11 years worth of content, so what is the rush for new players. Find a few friends, make your own shell, and enjoy the game on your terms. Finish Zilart with them and get some gear from the sky gods. Is it outdated in terms of Aldouin content? Yes it is. But it can be great gear when you guys decide to knock out CoP. Get your rajas ring, supponomi, and brutal earring, then look into WotG. Abyssea will open up new gear options and let fight all kinds of mobs.

Just because the content isn't new for the existing playerbase, it is still new for new players.

Because it's an MMO?

Because I like to have shared experiences with real life friends like the OP?

It's hard to welcome them to a game that often feels like an uphill battle.

Also, in case you aren't aware, there has been a lot of accounts on here of attempting to put together a linkshell as you mentioned.

The abysmal new player retention rate pretty much makes this impossible.

[Bukota]

But they can't experience the same game you did, because the population isn't there to support it. If COP were still the same as it was in 2004 no new players would be able to complete it. The requirements HAD to change or it would be an insurmountable roadblock no matter how dedicated the new player was.



Thank you so much.

At least some one gets it.

[Olor]

I get it too. The funny thing is I have been working on CoP here and there when nothing else is going on for awhile. BUT, it just makes me angry that I can't get my upgraded AF until I finish. It actually has stopped me from logging in the past few days. Not sure if I am going on another sub break. Depends on if relic reforging is similarly roadblocked.

[Demonjustin]

Well Olor, expect it to be, since that NPC is the cause for it and not the armor itself, and since the menu has a selection for Artifact rather than simply the options involving Artifact, it likely means they are just using that NPC for all 3 Reforged Gear sets, which also means it is highly likely all 3 will need that exact same requirement.

[Xantavia]

Because it's an MMO?

Because I like to have shared experiences with real life friends like the OP?

It's hard to welcome them to a game that often feels like an uphill battle.
Thats the point I'm trying to make. Get your friends playing and there is plenty of stuff to do. Unless your goal is to get friends to join and try to have reforged AF+1 within a month. Its a question of what you are looking for out of the game. I see those of us posting here have two drastically different visions on what we want out of the game.

I subscribe to the idea that the journey to the end is the best part of the game. Start a new character, participate in content as I'm able to do it, then get involved in endgame because there is nothing else to do.

The impression I get from the OP and others swaps the last too parts. Start a new character, get involved in endgame, then maybe do the rest of the content in the game. They are unhappy because to them, they are forced to do the last step before they can do the second step.

I don't understand that mentality myself. I've tried, but it still doesn't make sense. All I hear is that the other stuff is outdated and the rewards aren't worth anything. I see it as a viable rewards if you aren't focused on rushing to the end.

[Crevox]

they are forced to do the last step before they can do the second step.

Because the majority of the last step is a solo endeavor. Even if I get my friends in game, all those CoP missions and stuff are solo content. I've already explained why in the main post.

It gets difficult to find things you CAN do together besides exp until end game.

[bungiefanNA]

It doesn't have to be solo content. My LS has been doing Zilart and Promathia missions as a group. With the new Trust NPC from Aht Urhgan, I can see us doing that as a group really soon. I've gone out several times to help people with the key in Sacrarium, and stuck around for several more missions until they decided they wanted a break. We're also looking to do things like Garrison and some other uncommon events to just get a change of pace and do something for fun.

[AppropriateName5786]

Thats the point I'm trying to make. Get your friends playing and there is plenty of stuff to do. Unless your goal is to get friends to join and try to have reforged AF+1 within a month. Its a question of what you are looking for out of the game. I see those of us posting here have two drastically different visions on what we want out of the game.

Get your friends to play? Isn't the difficulty/impossibility of doing that exactly what has been explained to bits in this thread? It is shocking how we go in circles and never make any progress with those unwilling to be open-minded, even when every counter-argument they make is broken down and refuted to them clearly.


I subscribe to the idea that the journey to the end is the best part of the game. Start a new character, participate in content as I'm able to do it, then get involved in endgame because there is nothing else to do.

You must have been obsessed with WotG's journey, then, because it took 3 years to finish, and the multiple hours of content was worth the wait? Your second sentence makes no sense. New players cannot experience content as you do, because (once again): 1) the population is not the same as before, 2) you have more resources and connections to do what you want to do, 3) the gear you have is most likely better and makes soloing old content much easier, 4) you've seen SoA content already (so of course you're not in any hurry), 5) you understand the systems in place already and don't have to do a fraction of the research to get to your goal, and 6) you have already cleared the roadblocks and are not excluded from content you want to access. Those are just off the top of my head, but there are plenty more reasons.

I know it takes some people a while to realize things, but SoA was released in March 2013 and if you haven't realized this 11 months on, I'll do you a favor and just state it to you. SoA is not "end game." It is "the game." No one does anything outside of SoA unless they have very niche interests (such as building a mythic), and even then they are making it to participate in SoA events. The core game for everyone standing in Jeuno/Adoulin camping shouts all day is centered around SoA content. Furthermore, the devs work on ilevel 119 content only, and any quality of life changes made are only to facilitate getting to 99 and then ilevel 119 (e.g. SoE, FoV, GoV, Trust). You can go back and do the rest of the expansions/old irrelevant content when you have experienced all the current SoA content. I'm sure when a new player joins, it's not because he somehow saw RoZ in isolation and said "I must play FFXI for this expansion!"


I don't understand that mentality myself. I've tried, but it still doesn't make sense. All I hear is that the other stuff is outdated and the rewards aren't worth anything. I see it as a viable rewards if you aren't focused on rushing to the end.

This is really a personal view/issue and has no bearing on the OP's interests. You can try doing Delve, WKR, Skirmish, SKCNM, or AA II in full thaumas/empy/relic +2 gear as a blu, holding a level 99 Almace and Isador, while rocking your (easily replaceable) Suppanomimi and (easily replaceable) Rajas Ring. No one will stop you. But it's obvious that all these pre-SoA rewards/gear are not crucial, and are not vital to you having a fulfilling game experience while playing with 99% of the players left in FFXI.

I apologize for all the bold-faced words, but I've come to realize that certain people have trouble with deduction and getting the main point of a post and I'm trying to help them out.

[Bukota]

You must have been obsessed with WotG's journey, then, because it took 3 years to finish, and the multiple hours of content was worth the wait? Your second sentence makes no sense. New players cannot experience content as you do, because (once again): 1) the population is not the same as before, 2) you have more resources and connections to do what you want to do, 3) the gear you have is most likely better and makes soloing old content much easier, 4) you've seen SoA content already (so of course you're not in any hurry), 5) you understand the systems in place already and don't have to do a fraction of the research to get to your goal, and 6) you have already cleared the roadblocks and are not excluded from content you want to access. Those are just off the top of my head, but there are plenty more reasons.




Perfect summation of the theme being expressed in this thread, and the major roadblocks to new players making a bid for longevity in the current state of the game.

[Xantavia]

Get your friends to play? Isn't the difficulty/impossibility of doing that exactly what has been explained to bits in this thread? It is shocking how we go in circles and never make any progress with those unwilling to be open-minded, even when every counter-argument they make is broken down and refuted to them clearly.
Guess I was reading the OP different from you. If all of his friends also wanted to rush to the end, I can see where the annoyance is coming from. I saw it as them wanting to take it as it came, while he wanted to race ahead.


You must have been obsessed with WotG's journey, then, because it took 3 years to finish, and the multiple hours of content was worth the wait? Your second sentence makes no sense. New players cannot experience content as you do, because (once again): 1) the population is not the same as before, 2) you have more resources and connections to do what you want to do, 3) the gear you have is most likely better and makes soloing old content much easier, 4) you've seen SoA content already (so of course you're not in any hurry), 5) you understand the systems in place already and don't have to do a fraction of the research to get to your goal, and 6) you have already cleared the roadblocks and are not excluded from content you want to access. Those are just off the top of my head, but there are plenty more reasons.
To give a brief view of my play history. I started about 6 months before WotG released. Between then and the release of abbysea, I did the nation missions and Zilart. After the level increase to 80, I completed CoP. While everybody was busy with abbysea, I was knocking out ToAU and WotG. I was always an expansion or 2 behind which is why I have that mindset when it comes to new players.


I apologize for all the bold-faced words, but I've come to realize that certain people have trouble with deduction and getting the main point of a post and I'm trying to help them out.
Getting the main point of a post, based on the last 7 pages, completely changes based on where somebody is coming from. For me, its not a "I suffered through it, so you should too", but more of "I didn't feel the need to rush the content, why do you"

[Crevox]

Guess I was reading the OP different from you. If all of his friends also wanted to rush to the end, I can see where the annoyance is coming from. I saw it as them wanting to take it as it came, while he wanted to race ahead.


None of my friends wanted to do those missions at all. They want to be able to do the content everyone else is doing just as much as I do, or get cool gear for their character/power up/fight tough bosses. However, none of that is possible until they finish all those missions: which is seen as nothing more than a large chore. I was simply the only one of us that was willing to endure it (and after all this time, I'm still not even done).

[Afania]

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

I doubt it's "dev listens to player's opinion only" in EVE online's case, but we view things from different angle, and you're probably not wrong. I used to work in MMORPG industry, and tend to view everything from "dev's POV", marketing, resource, budget, market trend, target audience, each title's lifecycle, and how to sell fucking cash shop shiny etc. I find most players I encounter in gaming community tend to have "if dev can listen they'll make money" or "the game can make money if it's good" sort of POV, but I won't(can't) view the entire industry from that perspective. It's just too generalize and vague. From dev's POV, no amount of quality update can save a wow clone theme park mainstream market, the best way is to use the resource on next project and release next title faster. Unless the title has a niche market, such as EVE online.

I'm not saying you're wrong at all. It's just different POV, and it's not relevant to the topic to discuss why another title gets sub indrease/decrease. I'd probably write a 10 page essay trying to figure out why a game gets X amount of sub, and why sub increase/decrease at one point of time after spending months doing research about a title from an objective POV, while players would present their opinions about why sub increase/decrease from their subjective POV. But in the end, there won't be any real answer to answer the question, sub number change just happens. And every player, whether they're happy or unhappy about the game, would probably continue to argue why sub number change based on their own opinion and love/hate about the update anyways.

Oh and btw, I admit that I don't view FFXI entirely from dev's POV, I've played this game for way too long, so more thanhalf of the opinion are speaking from player's perspective, because FFXI player is what I am, just like how you speak from player's perspective too. That doesn't mean I think it's a right thing to listen to every player complain.




As a dev you have to try and find a happy medium. You're framing it as an all-or-nothing equation, and it's not. Maybe some requirements truly have outlived their usefulness, and really do do more to hinder the game than add to the appeal of it. Really they've been adjusting the game since day one, and rightfully so, and I'm sure some of those were changes you appreciated because they made your experience flow better.

Oh I agree that they have to find a happy medium, but some suggestions on the forum is totally leaning toward one side. I've been trying to pull it back.

Example1: Mythic takes too long, it's terrible and boring blah blah. Cut the requirement by 2/3, 10k alex only!

Then I gave several suggestions, from making alex drop from current content(so it's no longer boring), and not accepted.

Mythic SHOULD take forever, because it's a long term goal. How to make it less painful to obtain in such long journey toward getting one can be changed steamlined, but killing the long term goal doesn't help.


Example2: Looking for wiki is terrible, give us pop-up window and ! on the map!

My suggestion: Place the tutorial NPC near the new player starting area, edit the dialogue so they provide more hint about where to go next. Instead of pop-up window or ! on the map hand-holding everything. For example, the NPC can add info such as "seek the galka near the castle gate for more info", then players can just go to the castle gate and talk to the galka, instead of following that damn ! on the map.

All my suggestions solved complainer's suffering AND still able to maintain FFXI's own appeal. But complainers are still not happy until FFXI is not FFXI anymore. What else do you want me to say besides "go play wow?"




But they can't experience the same game you did, because the population isn't there to support it. If COP were still the same as it was in 2004 no new players would be able to complete it. The requirements HAD to change or it would be an insurmountable roadblock no matter how dedicated the new player was.

Everyone who pays the bill and plays the game has that right. You, me, the OP, and anyone else you can think of whether you or I agree with their ideas or not. No other answer makes any sense at all.

Actually, there is a way to make CoP similar experience as it was in 2004. Just that it requires a bit of resource to make. So the dev chose the easiest(and the worst) path, by making everything soloable, on the same time boring.

I agree that it's not possible for every player to experience exactly the same playing experience....heck just who you play with or what your LS is can affect your experience completely. That doesn't mean I'll agree dump down everything is all end the best solution.

[Lithera]

None of my friends wanted to do those missions at all. They want to be able to do the content everyone else is doing just as much as I do, or get cool gear for their character/power up/fight tough bosses. However, none of that is possible until they finish all those missions: which is seen as nothing more than a large chore. I was simply the only one of us that was willing to endure it (and after all this time, I'm still not even done).
So your friends were dicks and didn't or wouldn't have helped you out on CoP if you were not friends. Nice friends you had there.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Example2: Looking for wiki is terrible, give us pop-up window and ! on the map!

My suggestion: Place the tutorial NPC near the new player starting area, edit the dialogue so they provide more hint about where to go next. Instead of pop-up window or ! on the map hand-holding everything. For example, the NPC can add info such as "seek the galka near the castle gate for more info", then players can just go to the castle gate and talk to the galka, instead of following that damn ! on the map.

"Ohai, Mr. Castle Galka! I'm looking for a very particular rock in a two zone-wide desert full of rocks. I called up Miss Cleo and she says I need to find this rock if I ever hope to get some shiny level 119 gear. Any idea where I can find this rock?"

"TCELES B HSUP"

"Yeah... Thanks for nothing, Mr. Castle Galka!"

[Crevox]

So your friends were dicks and didn't or wouldn't have helped you out on CoP if you were not friends. Nice friends you had there.

They have not completed CoP. They simply do not want to do it.

There is no "help" when it comes to CoP unless you're doing one of the like 2 missions that require two people. It is a long, arduous, painful journey of auto-run (the R button) and warping from place to place. Having more than one person would only make it take longer; the best anyone can do for you is talk to you while you do it so it's not as boring.

[Afania]

Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience.

I NEVER argue that looking at wiki every 2~3 min is very immersive, I only said ! and pop-up window is not immersive. Stop assuming I'm defending for everything and put words in my mouth just because I disagree with pop-up window and !.

YES, looking at wiki every 2~3 min isn't immersive, pop-up window and ! isn't immersive either. The best way is to put the info in dialogue, not to solve the lack of immersion issue by reproducing the same issue.



I suppose since the game can not live forever and it will die eventually no matter what we do or say, we may as well not even try to improve the experience for new players trying to come to the game and enjoy it, rather, we should just leave it as it is even if it dies sooner rather than later as a result. That doesn't sound stupid at all.


That doesn't mean every complain is legit complain.


What if you are someone like me? Someone who has no care for WoW or its gameplay style yet likes the FFXI combat, yet at the same time hates the poor effort/reward, time sinks, and overall vague attitude of FFXI and the majority of its quests, missions, and overall content, but likes some quality of life aspects that games like WoW have that I find make a game not only more accessible, but more enjoyable. What if someone like me wants a middle ground? Are we simply screwed and left with either option A or option B, neither of which we will truly be satisfied with?


Have you tried ARR? If not go try it. If you've tried and still dislike ARR, and wanted FFXI to be perfect game in your mind, then you will face players like me who would disagree with you. You don't want middle ground, the FFXI you want is way too different from what it originally was.



I have had friends in the past either quit, or never even start with the game due to the amount of things that must be done in order to reach a level where they would find the game actually enjoyable.

For a few instances, my friend CJ who got me into FFXI used to play more than I ever did, he had an awesome time on the game, but when he got a job that tied down his time he was unable to play as much and thus, fell behind, due to the high time requirement everything had at the time he simply quit after a bit. Nowadays CJ has expressed some want to return, or that he would not mind returning, but the fact that he always had to look things up constantly on wiki, that everything is still so time taking, and that everyone is so far ahead, acts as nothing more than a deterrent from his return, after all, the first month of his coming back would be spent doing nothing more than relearning that which he has forgotten and trying to reintegrate himself into the content.


I don't know your friend, but I'm going to guess that the real reason why he wouldn't come back, is because FFXI no longer interest him/make him excited, not because he has no time.

Once a friend told me, "if you really want to do something, you will find time for it no matter how busy you are"

I'll tell you 3 real stories to prove my point.

1. I've been wanting to return to SWTOR to try new update/expansion, but I couldn't find the time for it. I'd need to install the game, download the patch, do tons of work and research for it. I work 9hr a day, 6 days a week, 4 hr spent on commute everyday, currently playing FFXI/GW2/skyrim. So in the end I didn't download SWTOR. Just installing and patching the game made me tired.

A few days ago I got a TESO beta key, rolling on the floor screaming happily. 1 min after I got the key I already finished account setup and start downloading it.

So I couldn't find time to download/patch SWTOR but I immediately find time to download/setup account/patch TESO. Lack of time is just an excuse, TESO simply excited me more than SWTOR that I'm willing to invest time to play it.

2. I got a friend Mr.A who I play with for years, and originally wanted to start Mythic with me, wanting a Mythic forever. Got a job and quit. I asked if he wants to come back, he replied "I only have 2hr a day to play, I don't have friends/LS in XI anymore that I can't do anything, but I'll go back sometime in the future". I invited him to my LS and offered to play with him but he refused.

However, after XIV launch he plays ARR all day, even at work. Made progress 10x faster than me and had multiple relic a few weeks after launch, and coil static etc.

He can make friends in XIV, somehow magically popped more than 2hr a day AND play ARR at work, but he couldn't do that to FFXI. It's obvious which game he likes to play more.

3. I also have plenty of friends quit at 75 era due to " the lack of time", been trying to lure them back to XI by telling how easy the game is and how it no longer require as much time as 75 era, doesn't work. The game simply isn't exciting to them. Streamlined design can't solve this issue completely, don't blame everything on the lack of accessability.

You think your friends are not coming back, because the game is daunting and full of stuff to do. But it may be the other way around. You should have an epic goal first, so you're willing to work for that epic goal, not the other way around. You don't remove all the obstacle on the path first, then find your goal on the path. You won't even walk on that path to begin with

I mean, sure, dev can delete all the "work" and quest requirement and let every player instantly catch up. Hand out free lv 99 characters, hand out IL119 gears in every slot, no more KI farming, no more LB quests, no more goobie quests. Everyone can just log on, instantly get access to delve rdy character, beat 3 delve zones in 3 days~1 week, quit again.

IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.

Your friend isn't coming back, maybe because the he found the game no longer exciting to him. Maybe he found something else more exciting that worth his time investment and sacrifice. Maybe his time with FFXI is just done. Terrible quality of life isn't what's stopping him, but it's more about the lack of force pushing him. I used to play FFXI 5~8hr a day, everyday, because I have exciting goals to work on. Now I found myself complete nearly every goal I had, no longer interested in anymore in game goal, and I avg 2hr a week or less now. I wish the game can give more exciting goals, that's not just an old BC with difficulty setting.

I don't know your friend, but your friend may be in the same situation as me, handing him everything isn't going to get him back, maybe it'll get him back for 3 days.

[Afania]

"Ohai, Mr. Castle Galka! I'm looking for a very particular rock in a two zone-wide desert full of rocks. I called up Miss Cleo and she says I need to find this rock if I ever hope to get some shiny level 119 gear. Any idea where I can find this rock?"

"TCELES B HSUP"

"Yeah... Thanks for nothing, Mr. Castle Galka!"

Oh noes, TCELES B HSUP for players that can't read anything but ! on the map maybe.

[Demonjustin]

Mythic takes too long, it's terrible and boring blah blah. Cut the requirement by 2/3, 10k alex only!

Then I gave several suggestions, from making alex drop from current content(so it's no longer boring), and not accepted.

Mythic SHOULD take forever, because it's a long term goal. How to make it less painful to obtain in such long journey toward getting one can be changed steamlined, but killing the long term goal doesn't help.30,000 items, 304 item slots(which I have an entire character dedicated to as it stand currently) is excessive as can possibly be. As for it being a long term goal, you constantly make it sound as though it is not a long term goal even with this change. If the 3 Kings, 4 Chariots, 100 Assaults, all ToAU Missions, 150,000 Tokens, 100,000 Ichor, and Odin weren't around, and people asked for the 30,000 Alexandrite to be cut into half or a 3rd, ok, maybe you have a point, it's no longer long term by compared, but that is a ton of things required, still far longer than either of the other two weapons. To say that cutting the Alexandrite down would stop it from being a long term goal begs the question, what in the world is a long term goal in a game!? Obviously you and I have vastly different concepts of what long term is, so without actually establishing that line it is really impossible to agree with one another.




Looking for wiki is terrible, give us pop-up window and ! on the map!

Place the tutorial NPC near the new player starting area, edit the dialogue so they provide more hint about where to go next. Instead of pop-up window or ! on the map hand-holding everything. For example, the NPC can add info such as "seek the galka near the castle gate for more info", then players can just go to the castle gate and talk to the galka, instead of following that damn ! on the map.So, again, asking a Galka at a gate about things that involve the country every single time something happens so that he can help you out with hints doesn't break the immersive feeling, since I guess some NPCs are allowed to know all and yet say little, but !s, Markers, or Dynamic Quest Logs are immersion breaking.

Sorry to say but your solution also fails in the respect that while I do think a great deal of players would not mind going to NPCs for Markers telling them where to go for a quest, I doubt hardly anyone would use a NPC who gives you nothing more than hints which may or may not help, and could be just as much out of the way as the Marker NPC idea I had which I put second in my list of the best 3 ways I feel the questing situation could be addressed. The exact reason that method is second is primarily because of the fact it gives no details on the story or anything like that, rather only a location, but the next best reason for it is the exact reason I say that your solution will not work well, people have to go out of their way to go to it just like with a wiki, the only difference is that what I propose is that it give people the information, rather than a vague hint that might, or might not, help them out.


All my suggestions solved complainer's suffering AND still able to maintain FFXI's own appeal. But complainers are still not happy until FFXI is not FFXI anymore. What else do you want me to say besides "go play wow?"As I said before in this thread, saying that people aren't happy till FFXI isn't FFXI anymore is a poor argument since everyone has their own opinion as what makes this game unique enough that it was chosen as their game of choice rather than others of the same genre. I have very different appreciations in this game than you do for instance, I do not find the thing making FFXI special as being the long term, multi-month goals, I find FFXI special because of the friends I have made, its combat/gameplay, and its Final Fantasy aspects that I feel are fitting with the rest of the games, which collectively are my favorite game series there is. Changing the two things you said above would not make FFXI into something else, surely not WoW, to me it would be a great combo of the two, something I can play with the gameplay, friends, and world of FFXI, but at the same time a game that is more accessible within the game itself and that gives more realistic goals and decreases the amount of time that is truly wasted playing a game by making you do something you do not even enjoy.

Your solutions did not solve things, what is asked for does not change the game in such a way it removes from FFXI what makes it what it is, at least, not to me, but as I said before, stating that it would make FFXI not FFXI is something that depends on each person, everyone has their own view of the game. Your viewpoint seems to show that this would change the game into something else, mine shows that it would make it not only better, but exactly what I want from a MMO, so please, stop making that argument, if you're going to say something along those lines be more specific with it, because it won't 'make FFXI not FFXI anymore', not to everyone at least.

[Demonjustin]

I NEVER argue that looking at wiki every 2~3 min is very immersive, I only said ! and pop-up window is not immersive. Stop assuming I'm defending for everything and put words in my mouth just because I disagree with pop-up window and !.I am not putting words in your mouth, I am pointing out that by saying that they should not add these things, when the result of not adding them is that people will only continue to look things up on Wiki instead, is breaking the immersion of the game all the same. If people wouldn't use a Wiki, they won't use these, if they would use a Wiki, they will use these so long as they know they exist, which is why it is simply an in-game alternative to Wiki in the end.

If you are really going to argue that adding these things breaks immersion for players then your argument holds no ground because by saying that you are implying that if they did not make the changes, it would be more immersive to people. By implying this you must look at the actions people take now, while it is not implemented, and judge based on that if the game is, in fact, more immersive. This is why I bring up Wiki every time, because almost everyone in this game with access to it, uses it, and if you discount the fact that it too breaks immersion then your argument isn't presenting all of the facts really.


YES, looking at wiki every 2~3 min isn't immersive, pop-up window and ! isn't immersive either. The best way is to put the info in dialogue, not to solve the lack of immersion issue by reproducing the same issue.I would be perfectly fine with every mission/quest being as easy to follow as they made the Scaredy Cats quest in Adoulin, where they gave you a position for the places you needed to go in the CSs. However to some extent I doubt you would support them giving us the massive 'hand holding' that is a position rather than making us search entire zones, after all, the markers which would be placed on your map out of your way entirely are being objected to by you...


That doesn't mean every complain is legit complain.I agree, not all feedback is valuable feedback, but what you said is akin to saying that 'all games die eventually so why even try to get new players if it means changing things?' To me, that is a very stupid line of thinking, because you are basically saying they shouldn't even bother getting new people, and just let it die.


Have you tried ARR? If not go try it. If you've tried and still dislike ARR, and wanted FFXI to be perfect game in your mind, then you will face players like me who would disagree with you. You don't want middle ground, the FFXI you want is way too different from what it originally was.I have no doubt the FFXI I want is way different from the original game, so is FFXI of today, the one that has been alive 11 years. The changes I am talking about are not too vast or terrible, no, the two changes I primarily have argued with you about through multiple threads Afania are Mythics, and Quests.

Mythics did not exist in the original game, and while I am sure you would argue that long term goals did and that is what you support, it makes little difference, and is not the topic at hand here. Quests on the other hand have evolved in games in their entirety, 11 years ago this kind of system was common, a system like that of which I ask for was unheard of, so of course it was not in the original game. That being said, what I am asking for doesn't change the game in any way you could not easily avoid if you chose to, you do realise that right?

The Quest Log is literally pointless as it is besides giving you names, the actual description of the quests are so vague that it isn't helpful at all, changing how it is now, it would serve the same purpose, telling you that you started a quest, and unless you entered the description, you would get no 'hand holding' from it.

Adding new markers would make it so that unless you not only went to the NPC and talked to them so they could add the markers, but also went to your name, entered markers, and then went to the red/blue quest markers, it could not possibly be there.

Lastly, I have consistently said I want a way to remove !s from popping up on screen if they did that because I would find it incredibly annoying myself unless I am specifically going out of my way to do quests at the time.

Tell me, of these 3 things how it changes the game from how it originally was in such a massive way, without deferring to the same old immersion answer, and maybe it will make more sense, till then you are saying it will change things too much without really saying how it is that it will change it so much when you can avoid it all...

Oh, and so far as ARR goes, no I haven't tried it, soon as someone gives me a PC which can run it or a PS3 so I can play it, I won't be playing the game. I have said a few times I ignore information about ARR for that very reason, I can't play the game, I do want to try it, but I am unable, so unless you want to give me a PC or PS3 to play it on, I can't try it, sorry.


I don't know your friend, but I'm going to guess that the real reason why he wouldn't come back, is because FFXI no longer interest him/make him excited, not because he has no time.

Once a friend told me, "if you really want to do something, you will find time for it no matter how busy you are"I find this highly doubtful seeing as until he had a job, FFXI took up a great amount of his day, it was only after his time dwindled that he stopped playing as much, and then at all. Before then he was actually further in this game than I was, a higher level, better gear, so on, but after he quit I surpassed him so much that looking at me, how much time I spend, and how much I have had to spend in order to get to the point I can do events with other people, he has told me it just isn't worth the effort.

He could not even be bothered to go out and download everything for the return campaign because he would have to download it all, install it all, update it all.

After those 2 days go by he would have to spend more than a month re-familiarizing himself with the game and trying to finish old quest lines like CoP/RotZ/ToAU for certain things, as well as unlock Adoulin, start it, get his jobs leveled to 99, gear them... the list goes on and on, yes I admit part of why he doesn't want to come back is probably because he is not interested or excited, but ask yourself why that is the case.

I think the fact he has to do so much work before he could even play with the majority of people and really join a group for things is probably a large part of that. I mean, if I were to come back to a game and I was told that it would take a month of work before I could really enjoy it, yeah, excitement and interest in that game would die out for me very, very quickly, that's part of why I have never quit FFXI, because if I do, I will never return.


I got a friend Mr.A who I play with for years, and originally wanted to start Mythic with me, wanting a Mythic forever. Got a job and quit. I asked if he wants to come back, he replied "I only have 2hr a day to play, I don't have friends/LS in XI anymore that I can't do anything, but I'll go back sometime in the future". I invited him to my LS and offered to play with him but he refused.

However, after XIV launch he plays ARR all day, even at work. Made progress 10x faster than me and had multiple relic a few weeks after launch, and coil static etc.

He can make friends in XIV, somehow magically popped more than 2hr a day AND play ARR at work, but he couldn't do that to FFXI. It's obvious which game he likes to play more.This example sounds the most like my friend, but there are key differences. Once he got a job he did not stop gaming, not even close, similar to the person you describe he continued to game, but one key difference is that he and I still only play Civilization V or SWTOR a few short hours(2~4 depending on the day) at best. Those days are few and far between as well, not because he does not like the games, but because he simply doesn't have time, he can't play at work, he isn't home and free long enough to play much, and this game simply takes to much time to get caught up let alone do much.

Could you imagine someone with 2~4 hours max a day playing this game? Even if his character were already caught up, that is 1~2 Ark Angels, 1 Delve run, 1 Dyna run, 1~2 Salvage runs, most of this would take his entire day to do just 1 of these events alone, the amount he could get done overall would be minor. I will not deny, some people use a lack of time as an excuse, I myself have done it on multiple occasions, but from what I see with him and other games he plays its more of an actual reason than an excuse brought up due to lack of interest, though as I explained above, a lack of interest in the fact of everything he would have to do anyways is not something I would think is uncommon.


IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.Yes, some goals excite people, but the question is are these goals exciting or do they feel bothersome and pointless? That is what you must ask yourself from the perspective of a new player. I made my second account, the one I post on, if you look at my level it has not changed in about a month because I got tired of leveling again. I got simply bored, I hated the idea of doing so many of the quests I have already done such as CoP, RotZ, ToAU, Abyssea, LBs, Gobbie-Bags, Mog Safe/Locker upgrades, the list goes on and on.

This character was made to give me the perspective of a new, up and coming RDM, so that while I write my FFXI RDM Guide I have the ability to include some sections and information from a perspective I would not otherwise have. At the same time however, it has allowed me to give a much more personal perspective of how the quest system is by compare to the rest of FFXI of today. RoE, Trust, HP Warps and the large number of Warps in general, all very modern ideas, yet many old systems such as Missions/Quests still exist as they were. I use this character as an example of why I feel like new players would not find many of these goals or tasks exciting, but rather a roadblock to something more enjoyable that they are trying to reach, but are being stopped from reaching by tedious tasks thrown in their path.


I don't know your friend, but your friend may be in the same situation as me, handing him everything isn't going to get him back, maybe it'll get him back for 3 days.The time I heard the most interest in the game from him was when I told him about the return campaign as well as RoE and Trust, explaining that Trust would allow him to XP like we did in the old days if he wanted to, it wouldn't be perfect, but it was something.

In all honesty, the return campaign did seem to spark some interest in him, and he told me a few weeks ago he was thinking of coming back, but I haven't heard from him in a bit. Some of the quality of life changes do seem to have made a difference for him at least, perhaps not enough to bring him back, or change his mind, but enough that for the first time in more than a year I heard him say that coming back was even a possibility rather than simply saying he didn't care like when I have told him about many updates in the past.

[Bukota]

Keep in mind these statements are only relevant to mission/storyline content.

Within this thread we are seeing evidence of 3 different perspectives.

1) Players that want to experience storyline content with challenging battles (which intrinsically require multiple players to complete, thus are cooperation gated content).


2) Players that want to experience storyline content regardless of battle difficulty or artificial restrictions like “gather a party of 3 or more players.”


3) Players that do not want to experience storyline content, but would like to cooperate with others in content like Voidwatch or Delve.


Let’s start by being perfectly honest about one thing. Aside from a few stubborn and sycophantic mouthpieces in this thread, there appear to be very few of #1) around these days.

There should be no debate about point #1), because Square-Enix already changed the game long ago to appease the clarion call of #2) players who wanted to actually accomplish things and see the game.

The argument being made here is that Square-Enix continues to sabotage itself by restricting incoming players to 2 options: Belong or force themselves to belong to group #2) –or-- quit the game.

This game does not offer you a choice between #2) and #3).

It is flat out #2) or GTFO.

Oh btw, you can see what happens next after Japanese Midnight.

Now, please wait 3 hours while I prepare your katana Ms. Bukota.

----

By the way, just one thought.

Nothing stops them from creating ONE new server with a special rule set.

They could call it Cloud(New Player), and funnel new players there.

It would be exclusive to creation and non-transferable.

It would offer equal opportunities to both #2) and #3) players by easing a lot of the restrictions currently in place on live servers.

They could test some new quality of life features, like allowing Trusts everywhere, and allowing 3 person groups + the leader being able to summon 3 Trusts.

If the new rule sets gained popularity, they could deploy the stuff that worked best to production servers.

Because right now, there is a lot of fragmentation of new players.

If you are new on Odin, Asura, or Bahamut, you have a fighting chance of getting a shell with like-minded players. But on some of the smaller servers, I’m sure many new people join but just can’t get the right support system.

And quite frankly, in the current state of the game, new players can't play with veterans anyway.

How is metaphorical segregation any different than physical segregation?

Don't believe me, look at this gem of a LS recruitment post:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/42010/renigd-open-recruitment/

It's a total treasure through-and-through, but this is absolutely my favorite part:

"
We're also not looking for career damage dealers that lack appropriate knowledge of said DD. If you've ever used a Ghillie Earring on Samurai outside of being drunk and confusing it with a Brutal earring, please do not apply.
"

Because we were all "born with gear."

But I'm sure there is enough cognitive dissonance within the elite player base that a white knight will show up within minutes to tell me that I'm wrong, and it would be a terrible idea to give new players an opportunity to play together.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Oh noes, TCELES B HSUP for players that can't read anything but ! on the map maybe.

Well, what else could be given as a "hint?" "It's in Eastern Altepa Desert" certainly doesn't cut the number of rocks to check down to a manageable amount. "It's near Quicksand Caves" doesn't mean anything because hardly any part of either Altepa zone isn't near one or more entrances/exits to that dungeon (even if the player can find them all by crawling through parts with monsters well above the supposed target level of this quest).

Hell, there's not even any indication that the player should be looking for a ??? to begin with, rather than farming all the things. "Wow, this must be a really low drop rate..."

[Bukota]

You think your friends are not coming back, because the game is daunting and full of stuff to do. But it may be the other way around. You should have an epic goal first, so you're willing to work for that epic goal, not the other way around. You don't remove all the obstacle on the path first, then find your goal on the path. You won't even walk on that path to begin with

I mean, sure, dev can delete all the "work" and quest requirement and let every player instantly catch up. Hand out free lv 99 characters, hand out IL119 gears in every slot, no more KI farming, no more LB quests, no more goobie quests. Everyone can just log on, instantly get access to delve rdy character, beat 3 delve zones in 3 days~1 week, quit again.

IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.



I think you have a strong point here, which is that if we remove all of this stuff, what’s really left in the game to do?

Having done all of it before, and pretty much maxed out, I can say that eventually there always comes a point where the answer is “not much.”

And you’re right that unless you set goals, that’s when you will burn out.

But to me I’m not really talking about just getting rid of this stuff.

I’m talking about the prospect of re-engineering it.

Given hindsight and the wealth of good tools available, it seems reasonable that these tasks could be more than just a brainless chore given a little bit of concentration.

Let me give you an example.

I recently went back and did the Rank 3 dragon fight as a level 33. The fight was easy to solo at 33, but it still felt pretty epic, since it used to be 25 capped. After all these years, the cutscenes have held up well, the story is good, and there is something satisfying about smashing a dragon in the face.

It would have been even more epic if I could have brought my Trust npcs along.

But yesterday I completed LB1 and LB2.

These quests have not held up well at all. They are a mindless chore.

Please bring me a lump of coal, a sheet of paper, and a petrified fungus goiter so that I can make my signature foot powder.

Also, can you get me 3 different shapes? My Fischer Price shape sorter is short a couple after baby Henry swallowed a couple whole last week.

These quests are mundane, mindless, and embarrassing to the players’ collective intelligence.

They are also long forgotten by the average vet, but unfortunately sentient for every new face that tried to make this game work.

They could easily be updated with epic fights using the Records of Eminence system.

Maat could teleport you to a BCNM where you and your Trust NPCs are given an ad-hoc RoE objective to slay a GIANT fungus. Bam, 100% drop of exoray mold.

Epic content that’s actually fun. No, instead you are to invis up and click 3 ??? points.

Just total and utter fail. It’s a straw man that you’re saying the reason your friends quit is the reason seemingly ALL new players to this game quit after a short period of time.

It is the abundance of REQUIRED quests like the 2 I just described, NOT the reason you are saying.

[Afania]

Well, what else could be given as a "hint?" "It's in Eastern Altepa Desert" certainly doesn't cut the number of rocks to check down to a manageable amount. "It's near Quicksand Caves" doesn't mean anything because hardly any part of either Altepa zone isn't near one or more entrances/exits to that dungeon (even if the player can find them all by crawling through parts with monsters well above the supposed target level of this quest).

Hell, there's not even any indication that the player should be looking for a ??? to begin with, rather than farming all the things. "Wow, this must be a really low drop rate..."

Or rather, just skip every dialogue because the ! is going to tell you where to go next anyways.

As someone who've been playing RPG before silly ! exist on the map, I find able to know where to go WITHOUT having to read the NPC conversation is just silly in a RPG.




30,000 items, 304 item slots(which I have an entire character dedicated to as it stand currently) is excessive as can possibly be. As for it being a long term goal, you constantly make it sound as though it is not a long term goal even with this change. If the 3 Kings, 4 Chariots, 100 Assaults, all ToAU Missions, 150,000 Tokens, 100,000 Ichor, and Odin weren't around, and people asked for the 30,000 Alexandrite to be cut into half or a 3rd, ok, maybe you have a point, it's no longer long term by compared, but that is a ton of things required, still far longer than either of the other two weapons. To say that cutting the Alexandrite down would stop it from being a long term goal begs the question, what in the world is a long term goal in a game!? Obviously you and I have vastly different concepts of what long term is, so without actually establishing that line it is really impossible to agree with one another.


So, again, asking a Galka at a gate about things that involve the country every single time something happens so that he can help you out with hints doesn't break the immersive feeling, since I guess some NPCs are allowed to know all and yet say little, but !s, Markers, or Dynamic Quest Logs are immersion breaking.

Sorry to say but your solution also fails in the respect that while I do think a great deal of players would not mind going to NPCs for Markers telling them where to go for a quest,

I already said everything I want to say about Mythic in another thread, so there's no point to reply here anymore.

Considering plenty of single player RPG has no ! on the map and ppl beat the game just fine, I can argue that "great deal" of player won't mind having to read a little bit more text.

No, ! isn't needed in any RPG. And it's annoying to have.




I find this highly doubtful seeing as until he had a job, FFXI took up a great amount of his day, it was only after his time dwindled that he stopped playing as much, and then at all. Before then he was actually further in this game than I was, a higher level, better gear, so on, but after he quit I surpassed him so much that looking at me, how much time I spend, and how much I have had to spend in order to get to the point I can do events with other people, he has told me it just isn't worth the effort.

He could not even be bothered to go out and download everything for the return campaign because he would have to download it all, install it all, update it all.

After those 2 days go by he would have to spend more than a month re-familiarizing himself with the game and trying to finish old quest lines like CoP/RotZ/ToAU for certain things, as well as unlock Adoulin, start it, get his jobs leveled to 99, gear them... the list goes on and on, yes I admit part of why he doesn't want to come back is probably because he is not interested or excited, but ask yourself why that is the case.


I just explained, he isn't interested nor excited, because he no longer has a goal.

Do you think I magically popped over 2~4hr everyday to play FFXI? No. I had less than 2hr a day in FFXI. But back when I play actively I log on 1.5~2hr a day doing dyna, because I had a goal that excited me, which was mythic(long term goal). The concept of Mythic itself is epic, and it's a goal worth fighting/sacrifice my free time or even sleep time for, to me at least. I still do group event for other gears, but I usually gather people at specific time so I log on and do content such as delve right away. At one point of time I just pop on 9pm, enter delve with LS(that's when everyone do delve with LS instead of /shout), sell airlixir for gil, log off before 11pm.

Why I keep doing that everyday? Because I had an epic goal, and there's a reason why I stated long term goal is important, it effectively kept me playing and interested for years. After the long term goal done, I no longer find any game content epic enough to interest me. I've experience pretty much everything I wanted from this game. But obstacle isn't the reason why the game isn't interesting anymore, the lack of goal is.

He isn't interested in the game, because he already experienced everything he wanted to. He's "done" with the game. Unless a goal that'd spark his interest pops. Removing the obstacle isn't going to get him back.

Think of it this way, if your goal of life is to be an oscar award winner, so you spend all your life and money making a film trying to win the award. You're often broke and starve on the street for your film, but you insist to continue. One day a company want to hire you as a cashier, now you no longer have to worry about your money. But you would no longer have time to work on your film, and must give up your dream to win an oscar award.

Now you have 2 choices, try to pursue your epic goal of life and continue to work on your film, but you have to deal with the obstacle(often starve on the street)

Or give up your dream and get a full time job, and no longer deal with the obstacle?

In real life, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice everything for 1 epic goal. Some of people would pick option 2, easier life but nothing epic.

In FFXI, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice a lot of free time/family time/sleep time/w/e for 1 epic goal in a video game, some people would pick option 2, not to chase after a goal for easier life, which is don't play FFXI(or play FFXI very casually).

And whoever picked option 1, eventually would have to face a situation: After spending entire life working toward a goal, their goals are accomplished.

So you finally won an oscar award after sacrificed everything you have in your life, and now you're done with this goal. You no longer have to sleep on the street because your movie is done.

In FFXI, if your goal is done, you won't have a reason to keep playing anymore. With obstacles or not. That may be the reason why some ppl don't play anymore.


I'm not sure whether you understand the entire concept or not, since you seem to play video game for entirely different reason from me. I play the game(or aim for a goal irl) for challenge. Once challenge no longer exist I'd lose interest. Removing the obstacle doesn't do anything, because it's the challenge that's keeping me around. I don't play video game for the sake of playing video game. I don't play FFXI to instantly pop on a character call Afania for the sake of killing delve bosses or AA because killing them is fun. Removing goobie bag/LB/quest requirement doesn't help, because pop on a character and kill delve boss with everyone isn't my goal.

Why I can tolerate content like 75 CoP/mythic/making a group for everything/FFXI endgame? Because I have to tolerate it to accomplish my goal, like that unlucky movie director must tolerate sleeping on the street if he wants to complete his film. (Oh and please don't start next round of "why do you must tolerate obstacle for a goal" arguement)

Your friend(and my friend too) isn't coming back, because they no longer feel the goal in FFXI important to them, it's as simple as that. The goal used to be important to me, that's why I kept playing.

Maybe everyone play FFXI for different reasons, some play it because of their friends, some play it because it's part of their life style. Some play it because they have emotional attachment, some play it because they want a Mythic and quit. But no matter what their goals are, obstacles isn't what'd affect their decision, unless their goal no longer important to them.

Again, there's nothing you can do if your friend can't find a meaningful goal to keep playing. I quit ARR before full IL90 in every slot, because I don't find full IL90 in every slot a goal worth invest time on, even though that game has very little obstacle, I still quit. The only goal in ARR that's worth sacrifice everything for is world/server first kill for harder raid boss, but it'd have a time limit, unlike FFXI I can just do long term goal at my own pace without worry about falling behind. I'm not interested in goals that everyone can do. A cashier isn't a job I'd be interested in because everyone can do it, making an award winning film is more interesting. But I don't feel like racing against the time for a goal too, ARR can't provide a goal I'm interested in unless I aim for world/server first kill, so I quit. FFXI provided a goal I was interested in for a while, so I stayed, it's as simple as that. That probably apply to majority of player that quit FFXI, have a goal and stay, or no goal and quit.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Or rather, just skip every dialogue because the ! is going to tell you where to go next anyways.

Because nobody skips dialog while they follow their precious wiki checklist? I've been guiding new players long enough to know that those who read all dialog have never been anywhere near being a majority of players.

Seriously, try to be constructive here and prove me wrong: what "hint" could be given for this quest that would actually be useful that isn't a map coordinate? Current in-game information is limited to "I need a rock from 'Altepa,'" which does little more than infer that it's not in a Kuzotz region dungeon, so there's theoretically plenty of room for improvement.

[Afania]

I think you have a strong point here, which is that if we remove all of this stuff, what’s really left in the game to do?

Having done all of it before, and pretty much maxed out, I can say that eventually there always comes a point where the answer is “not much.”

And you’re right that unless you set goals, that’s when you will burn out.

But to me I’m not really talking about just getting rid of this stuff.

I’m talking about the prospect of re-engineering it.

Given hindsight and the wealth of good tools available, it seems reasonable that these tasks could be more than just a brainless chore given a little bit of concentration.

Let me give you an example.

I recently went back and did the Rank 3 dragon fight as a level 33. The fight was easy to solo at 33, but it still felt pretty epic, since it used to be 25 capped. After all these years, the cutscenes have held up well, the story is good, and there is something satisfying about smashing a dragon in the face.

It would have been even more epic if I could have brought my Trust npcs along.

But yesterday I completed LB1 and LB2.

These quests have not held up well at all. They are a mindless chore.

Please bring me a lump of coal, a sheet of paper, and a petrified fungus goiter so that I can make my signature foot powder.

Also, can you get me 3 different shapes? My Fischer Price shape sorter is short a couple after baby Henry swallowed a couple whole last week.

These quests are mundane, mindless, and embarrassing to the players’ collective intelligence.

They are also long forgotten by the average vet, but unfortunately sentient for every new face that tried to make this game work.

They could easily be updated with epic fights using the Records of Eminence system.

Maat could teleport you to a BCNM where you and your Trust NPCs are given an ad-hoc RoE objective to slay a GIANT fungus. Bam, 100% drop of exoray mold.

Epic content that’s actually fun. No, instead you are to invis up and click 3 ??? points.

Just total and utter fail. It’s a straw man that you’re saying the reason your friends quit is the reason seemingly ALL new players to this game quit after a short period of time.

It is the abundance of REQUIRED quests like the 2 I just described, NOT the reason you are saying.

Fetch quests exist in RPG for years though, including the best selling RPG skyrim, usually serve as some kind of "cool down" between the exciting/epic part of the quest.

Yeah, you just killed an epic dragon, if you're going out to kill something epic right away you won't feel the epicness anymore. You don't see every hollywood movie have action scenes every sec too, it's usually action scene--->boring scene--->action scene--->boring scene repeat. If it's anime with more episodes, it'd have even longer boring scenes.

Google story structure:
http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHill/images/Struct1.gif

Having fetch quests in game isn't FFXI only tbh.

[Afania]

Because nobody skips dialog while they follow their precious wiki checklist? I've been guiding new players long enough to know that those who read all dialog have never been anywhere near being a majority of players.

Seriously, try to be constructive here and prove me wrong: what "hint" could be given for this quest that would actually be useful that isn't a map coordinate? Current in-game information is limited to "I need a rock from 'Altepa,'" which does little more than infer that it's not in a Kuzotz region dungeon, so there's theoretically plenty of room for improvement.

If the players skip the dialogue, that means the game writer needs to work harder and write something more interesting so players are interested in reading them. It does not justify a ! on the map.

They could just mention something about an object or building, for example, under the 1st tower from southern entrance in beaucedine glacier. Go to the southern entrance of beaucedine glacier, go to the closest tower, click.

[Renaissance2K]

If the players skip the dialogue, that means the game writer needs to work harder and write something more interesting so players are interested in reading them.
Unless you plan on inserting lewd photos throughout the text, there's no way to write dialogue interesting enough for all players, especially from the more recent generation. I've seen plenty of games with really celebrated cutscenes and scripting fall victim to the "mash the A button until I can kill something again" mentality of most modern gamers.

That said, the text in Adoulin is really, really dry. I've been really pleased with the text as I play through a lot of the legacy content, but it's fairly obvious that Square's priorities shifted with the release of Abyssea.

(Though the "Make it so / Make it no" dialogue from the Abyssea warp NPC is incredible.)

[Afania]

Keep in mind these statements are only relevant to mission/storyline content.

Within this thread we are seeing evidence of 3 different perspectives.

1) Players that want to experience storyline content with challenging battles (which intrinsically require multiple players to complete, thus are cooperation gated content).


2) Players that want to experience storyline content regardless of battle difficulty or artificial restrictions like “gather a party of 3 or more players.”


3) Players that do not want to experience storyline content, but would like to cooperate with others in content like Voidwatch or Delve.


Let’s start by being perfectly honest about one thing. Aside from a few stubborn and sycophantic mouthpieces in this thread, there appear to be very few of #1) around these days.

There should be no debate about point #1), because Square-Enix already changed the game long ago to appease the clarion call of #2) players who wanted to actually accomplish things and see the game.

The argument being made here is that Square-Enix continues to sabotage itself by restricting incoming players to 2 options: Belong or force themselves to belong to group #2) –or-- quit the game.

This game does not offer you a choice between #2) and #3).

It is flat out #2) or GTFO.

By the way, just one thought.

Nothing stops them from creating ONE new server with a special rule set.

They could call it Cloud(New Player), and funnel new players there.

It would be exclusive to creation and non-transferable.

It would offer equal opportunities to both #2) and #3) players by easing a lot of the restrictions currently in place on live servers.

They could test some new quality of life features, like allowing Trusts everywhere, and allowing 3 person groups + the leader being able to summon 3 Trusts.

If the new rule sets gained popularity, they could deploy the stuff that worked best to production servers.

Because right now, there is a lot of fragmentation of new players.

If you are new on Odin, Asura, or Bahamut, you have a fighting chance of getting a shell with like-minded players. But on some of the smaller servers, I’m sure many new people join but just can’t get the right support system.

And quite frankly, in the current state of the game, new players can't play with veterans anyway.

How is metaphorical segregation any different than physical segregation?

Don't believe me, look at this gem of a LS recruitment post:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/42010/renigd-open-recruitment/

It's a total treasure through-and-through, but this is absolutely my favorite part:

"
We're also not looking for career damage dealers that lack appropriate knowledge of said DD. If you've ever used a Ghillie Earring on Samurai outside of being drunk and confusing it with a Brutal earring, please do not apply.
"

Because we were all "born with gear."

But I'm sure there is enough cognitive dissonance within the elite player base that a white knight will show up within minutes to tell me that I'm wrong, and it would be a terrible idea to give new players an opportunity to play together.

The game doesn't offer choice 3 because no game does.....well maybe unless you pay for the service. Endgame is supposed to be for players that's done with pre lv cap content.

As for the the guild recruitment thread, to defend for them, they're looking for serious players to join their event. There are always serious players in MMO and casual players. The point is to find like-minded players, not to force yourself to play with different group.

If you're casual/new, it'd be painful to play with serious players even if they accept you. You'd have to catch up, you'd have to work on many stuff. You'd have to feel falling behind and under stress.

So why are you bothered that serious players don't want to play with new/casual players? New/casual players should play with casual players because it's more comfortable to, instead of playing with serious players and feeling stressed. And vice versa, if someone want to play the game seriously, having to wait for a casual player trying to catch up is quite painful too.

Playing with like minded player isn't a crime, it actually make everyone's life much happier. Casuals can feel more comfortable with casuals, serious players won't be pissed for having to wait for someone else that's behind.

Call me a white knight if you want, but that's just my observation. Serious players are happier with other serious players and casual players are happier without serious players around.


Unless you plan on inserting lewd photos throughout the text, there's no way to write dialogue interesting enough for all players, especially from the more recent generation. I've seen plenty of games with really celebrated cutscenes and scripting fall victim to the "mash the A button until I can kill something again" mentality of most modern gamers.

That said, the text in Adoulin is really, really dry. I've been really pleased with the text as I play through a lot of the legacy content, but it's fairly obvious that Square's priorities shifted with the release of Abyssea.

(Though the "Make it so / Make it no" dialogue from the Abyssea warp NPC is incredible.)

Just because some players hates reading, doesn't justify a ! on the map :(

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

If the players skip the dialogue, that means the game writer needs to work harder and write something more interesting so players are interested in reading them. It does not justify a ! on the map.

Man-hours for writing cost money, and old content was on sale for $4.99 back in 2012. At best you're proposing a chicken-and-egg problem: S-E needs to attract new paying subscribers to that they can afford to make dialog more accessible (in four languages!) to attract new paying subscribers.


They could just mention something about an object or building, for example, under the 1st tower from southern entrance in beaucedine glacier. Go to the southern entrance of beaucedine glacier, go to the cloest tower, click.

"Go to the part of Altepa with all the rocks and sand." We're talking about an area where the game lore itself describes the geography swallowing all architectural landmarks.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Now here's an interesting case study!



The amount of fame required to undertake certain quests in the Kingdom of San d'Oria, the Republic of Bastok, the Federation of Windurst, the Grand Duchy of Jeuno, Selbina, Mhaura, the Tenshodo, and other areas that require fame rank will be reduced.


Somewhere, out there, beneath the pale blue sky of /regionmap, certain quest access conditions are being adjusted. This is supposedly being done for new players, since old players certainly don't need help accessing quests they've already completed.

S-E is clearly relying no "the community" to get the information on these new quest adjustments to new players. But currently "the community" is spread among at least three different wikis, because we, being a bunch of MMO-playing shut-ins, apparently suck at building and maintaining communities.

But let's pretend we're all looking at the mythical "One True Wiki." We'll even pretend that the One True Wiki happens to be the only wiki currently linked to from playonline.com (since "check out the Community Sites!" is a GM's answer for everything from graphical glitches to the Bastokan Blight). Will the information on these particular quests actually get updated?

Someone will have to go through and experiment with these quests themselves to find out what quests are affected and what the new conditions are. But there is every reason to believe that many of those dedicated wiki contributors have long since quit FFXI, meaning there are fewer such dedicated individuals to even try this.

On top of that, this is content for which a wiki contributor would have to create a new character. So these dedicated contributors would not only need to still exist but also need to be committed enough to pay for at least one more mule on their account.

So the chance of meaningful information on this subject being made available to new players through a "Community Site" are still slim to none. And a new player would have no reason to believe that the information they are looking at is out-of-date.

The result: no change in the situation at all. Because the game and its developers make no effort to disseminate such information, new players have no reason to question the information as pretended in the Community Sites (that hasn't been updated since Firefly was still on TV). So new players will still spend their time grinding cabbages and necklaces, get frustrated, and quit before their 14+30 day trial ends.

But even if the devs, in a change of heart, decided to publish this specific information in the update notes directly, they'd still be expecting a new player to sit down and trudge through twelve years of update notes to dig up that particular gem.

[Lithera]

Lol now I can see one of the reasons she quit XIV. All of the skip the CS or gtfo people running a non premade group through one of the two end dungeons of the original story part mentality.

Let's see games that have a ! Go here next X-2 had that a lot. Anytime you picked up a cieth stone quest once you were on grand pulse had a ! style quest system in XIII. Also was there in XIII 2 and will be in Lighting returns. Sure it might not be on the main screen and only on the mini map but it's there. He'll it's there in every Aassins Creed game in the map. Even sky rim to a point has it. Just it is hidden.

Wait you mean there wasn't any just spam enter on any server when it came/comes to voting on what to get next for each coalition house? Must be only shiva where this runs out of control.

[Demonjustin]

Or rather, just skip every dialogue because the ! is going to tell you where to go next anyways.Exactly the same as when people use wikis.


I am pointing out that by saying that they should not add these things, when the result of not adding them is that people will only continue to look things up on Wiki instead, is breaking the immersion of the game all the same. If people wouldn't use a Wiki, they won't use these, if they would use a Wiki, they will use these so long as they know they exist.


As someone who've been playing RPG before silly ! exist on the map, I find able to know where to go WITHOUT having to read the NPC conversation is just silly in a RPG.I am not new to RPGs either, but it does not change anything, you find it silly, don't use it, I am not going to keep wasting my time telling you the exact same things over and over again when you act like a 5 year old and ignore it every time I tell you that every one of the things I mentioned could be ignored if you chose. If you choose not to ignore it, you are the same kind of person that will go look at a wiki anyways if you can, that means if they add it in game or not, what a NPC says will be just as meaningful, or meaningless, regardless of if the information is presented in game through menus, maps, or markers, rather than through dialog.


I already said everything I want to say about Mythic in another thread, so there's no point to reply here anymore.So then don't bring it up.


Considering plenty of single player RPG has no ! on the map and ppl beat the game just fine, I can argue that "great deal" of player won't mind having to read a little bit more text.That simply depends on age. The majority of RPGs have adapted a marker system of some sort in modern gaming with only collectibles being left to find on your own in most cases, some games even mark those for you as well. Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, I could list off a ton of RPGs if I cared to put thought into it that all have a marker system for main objectives, side missions, items, or multiple other things. Also, games that are close worlded games such as most Final Fantasy games are, as well as older RPGs in general, those hardly had anywhere near the open world experience that FFXI has where we have hardly any guidance, by compare, the story in FFXI has hardly any pointers telling you where to go outside of vague reference. This is very unlike a game like FFX or FFXII, the predecessor and successor of this game in the same series, both of which were very straight forward in where you needed to go at all times, FFX was more linear than FFXI or FFXII, while FFXII had markers for Hunts, gave a reminder at the bottom of your map of where to go, and the characters in the CSs almost always mentioned a fairly accurate description of where to go to get where you needed to be.

So, let me sum this up by saying, you have a very narrow view of what a RPG is, or should be, and seem to ignore the majority of newer RPGs as well. I have played many RPGs in my life, and I have the ability to see that the changes that could be made and you object to, are modern changes, enhancements to the game, not detriments, I have give you the reasons why repeatedly, and you ignore them every time simply saying the exact, same, thing, that doesn't even address what I said, which reminds me, the next bit of your post...


No, ! isn't needed in any RPG. And it's annoying to have.For ****s sake then turn it off! Why is that so hard to grasp!?


I just explained, he isn't interested nor excited, because he no longer has a goal.No, actually, you just explained you don't know him, multiple times you said that, and yet you think that somehow you can infer his entire reasoning for not playing this game having never even met him simply because of how you view it. I just explained that through talking to him, I believe I have an understanding, not that I do, not that I know it 100%, that I believe I have an understanding of how he feels. If I can't tell and I am his friend, what in the world makes you think that you know the cause so well? Fact is, you don't.


He isn't interested in the game, because he already experienced everything he wanted to. He's "done" with the game. Unless a goal that'd spark his interest pops. Removing the obstacle isn't going to get him back.Which I am sure is exactly why when a mention was made about the ability to do things more easily alone, as well as the game being made more accessible and easier for him to catch up on, is the only time when he showed any interest on returning to the game in more than a year. The obstacles being removed or eased weren't anything to do with it, no, some magical mystical goal was found in those words that somehow sparked his interest in returning after a year of saying he wouldn't come back due to lack of time and lack of wanting to have to do all of the BS involved in getting back into the game as he was.


Think of it this way, if your goal of life is to be an oscar award winner, so you spend all your life and money making a film trying to win the award. You're often broke and starve on the street for your film, but you insist to continue. One day a company want to hire you as a cashier, now you no longer have to worry about your money. But you would no longer have time to work on your film, and must give up your dream to win an oscar award.

Now you have 2 choices, try to pursue your epic goal of life and continue to work on your film, but you have to deal with the obstacle(often starve on the street)

Or give up your dream and get a full time job, and no longer deal with the obstacle?

In real life, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice everything for 1 epic goal. Some of people would pick option 2, easier life but nothing epic.

In FFXI, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice a lot of free time/family time/sleep time/w/e for 1 epic goal in a video game, some people would pick option 2, not to chase after a goal for easier life, which is don't play FFXI(or play FFXI very casually).

And whoever picked option 1, eventually would have to face a situation: After spending entire life working toward a goal, their goals are accomplished.

So you finally won an oscar award after sacrificed everything you have in your life, and now you're done with this goal. You no longer have to sleep on the street because your movie is done.

In FFXI, if your goal is done, you won't have a reason to keep playing anymore. With obstacles or not. That may be the reason why some ppl don't play anymore.I'm gonna be quite honest, I am not even going to bother formulating a proper response to this, I am going to be blunt.

Choice 1 is basically giving up on what could be a chance to live a decent life, though not what you necessarily want at the time, in order to fast track your way to getting what you want but at the same time suffer the risk of never getting it, and dying a pointless wasted life because you refused an offer you had that could have improved your life. Choice 2 is basically accepting an offer given, possibly improving your life, and not necessarily removing all options for completing your goals in the future. You're giving that, which is a real life example of someone I would consider a complete moron for picking 1, and comparing it to a person who deprives themselves of sleep, hygiene, food, or other real life things that are needed, so that they can complete something in a game. If you honestly think that choice 1 when it comes to FFXI is actually sane, healthy, or in any way a good choice to make, sacrificing your real life so you can do something in a game in the way it seems you are talking about it, then you likely have some issues you need to deal with, because no one, no matter the game, should be putting their real life at risk, be that through starvation, sickness, loss of their job or anything of the sort.


Your friend(and my friend too) isn't coming back, because they no longer feel the goal in FFXI important to them, it's as simple as that. The goal used to be important to me, that's why I kept playing.When you meet and know him, you let me know, then, and only then, will anything you say about him, his opinion, or his reasons for quitting or failing to return, will carry any weight, you see, last time you posted I cared not that you said anything because you phrased it in a way that made everything you sound as though it were thoughts on the subject, not facts, not something you believe is the actual case here, but rather an opinion on a situation given details around it. This post you have went the entire opposite direction in your post, for that reason, you lost all respectable grounds your argument had to stand on with me.


Maybe everyone play FFXI for different reasons, some play it because of their friends, some play it because it's part of their life style. Some play it because they have emotional attachment, some play it because they want a Mythic and quit. But no matter what their goals are, obstacles isn't what'd affect their decision, unless their goal no longer important to them.No. It is not a matter of if the goal itself is important, it is a matter of one's motivation to achieve such a goal even if they must surpass the obstacles in their path. If you set to many obstacles between a person and their goal there will always be a breaking point where one will choose to give up, that is an irrefutable fact. No matter what someone wants, there is a point where they will not do what is needed to achieve it, many people would not risk their lives in order to attain a goal of winning an award if they had to suffer through months or years of a terrible life just to attain that end result, it is a matter of how much motivation someone has to achieve that which determines if they actually proceed through the obstacle.

The fact of the matter is, simply because someone does not choose to suffer in a way that increases their chances of achieving their goal, does not mean that it is no longer important to them, simply that they have not determined that goal worth the cost required to obtain it, be that cost suffering, money, time, effort, it matters not, it is a cost, and one the person may not be willing to pay in the end.

[Bukota]

Now you have 2 choices, try to pursue your epic goal of life …

Or give up your dream and get a full time job, and no longer deal with the obstacle…

In real life, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice everything for 1 epic goal…

In FFXI, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice a lot of free time/family time/sleep time/w/e for 1 epic goal in a video game…

And whoever picked option 1, eventually would have to face a situation: After spending entire life working toward a goal, their goals are accomplished…



I was deeply disturbed by your response.

I had to re-read your post multiple times, but did finally reach the conclusion that you were in fact talking about an online roleplaying game.

I think this opens a window for all of us as to why several here would mount opposition to a genuine call for help such a Crevox’s.

Clearly your sentiments above are a reflection of your own personal sacrifices you’ve made over the years to “enjoy” this game.

And selfishly, you can’t bear to see others reach their goals without incurring the same losses.

Allow me to state with as much sarcasm as can possibly be mustered:

Your version of the game sounds absolutely thrilling…

[Xantavia]

Let me give you an example.

I recently went back and did the Rank 3 dragon fight as a level 33. The fight was easy to solo at 33, but it still felt pretty epic, since it used to be 25 capped. After all these years, the cutscenes have held up well, the story is good, and there is something satisfying about smashing a dragon in the face.
This is what I wish more people would be willing to do. You went for a fight without being totally overpowered for it. By being a level where you most likely couldn't attack then go AFK, I'm sure it didn't feel like a grind. But if you waited until 99, I think you may have asked yourself why did you even bother.

[Crevox]

This is what I wish more people would be willing to do. You went for a fight without being totally overpowered for it. By being a level where you most likely couldn't attack then go AFK, I'm sure it didn't feel like a grind. But if you waited until 99, I think you may have asked yourself why did you even bother.

It may have been an enjoyable fight. There were some fights I had to do (Avatar fights, etc) that of course WERE "difficult" and enjoyable. But, regardless of that, depending on the fight, sometimes you just don't want to be bothered. A lot of the time it's stuff you have to do just because you have to do it; and you feel like you're not getting any reward out of it. Besides that, yeah, sometimes the fights are fun even if you overpower them. But, the majority of the time, it's not a fight, it's a long string of running/warping/talking before you finally get to a fight, and often times it's not story important, it's just some random mob you have to kill in a field.

All those CoP battlefields/emptiness; they come at you periodically. None of them reward you with anything. You know that everyone has already done them, and in order to get to the content THEY are doing and be a good player, you have to get through them. You have to do them just to be able to play with other people, because you're essentially playing "catch up." This makes them feel like a chore (not to mention the facts I already stated, like that it's just hours of running). It's tedious; and when you complete one and you look at the mission list and you see there's still like 6 entire chapters to go (with no rewards), and some people say "upcoming chapter X is the worst, it takes forever"... yeah, that's not a thrilling experience. Especially when it's a solo endeavor, and no, doing it with friends does not make it faster or more enjoyable. Doing something that is extremely boring and then forcing a friend to do it too just makes me feel bad.

It basically comes down to this. I log in and all my friends are online. Awesome. I could play with my friends and go EXP or try something fun, OR, I can ignore all of them and for the sake of my character, go do a bunch of boring solo missions. We all know we have to do it, but if we're all online at the same time, and they don't always have that much time to play... why in the world would we go do something like CoP? And yeah, for those people that don't have much time to play, they're going to be logging in every day for 3-4 hours just doing CoP and not doing anything else in the game, because it takes that much time to get through all that (and good luck if Japanese midnight happens).

[Afania]

I was deeply disturbed by your response.

I had to re-read your post multiple times, but did finally reach the conclusion that you were in fact talking about an online roleplaying game.

I think this opens a window for all of us as to why several here would mount opposition to a genuine call for help such a Crevox’s.

Clearly your sentiments above are a reflection of your own personal sacrifices you’ve made over the years to “enjoy” this game.

And selfishly, you can’t bear to see others reach their goals without incurring the same losses.

Allow me to state with as much sarcasm as can possibly be mustered:

Your version of the game sounds absolutely thrilling…

I'm not sure what's so "disturbed" about, every person have full control of their life, and choose what's important to them. Some value work over family, some value family over work. Some value accomplishment in a hobby(video game/making a film/owning a company). I have no issue with others trying to reach their goal, but I don't think the goal would value the same if the obstacles aren't the same.

Every choice you make, you make a sacrifice. If you choose to work overtime for more money and better position, you sacrifice your health and your family. Everyday when you make a choice to do "something", you always ended up sacrificing something else for it.

Do I sacrificed something for video games? I'd be lying if I say no, after all, it's thousands of hr in my life gone, spent on video games. But so do you, and everyone else who plays any video game title. Even if you spent only 30hr in your entire life on video game, it's still a sacrifice, just that the sacrifice is smaller.

[Afania]

I am not new to RPGs either, but it does not change anything, you find it silly, don't use it


! on the map is the same as wiki, but there's 1 key difference: One is guide in game, another one is outside help.

If the game provide a guide in game, majority of ppl would use it. In fact NPCs probably won't bother to provide much hint in dialogue because players would still know where to go via !.

If the game does not provide a guide in game, dev would have to provide more hint in the dialogue, and players refuse to "cheat" with a guide would not use it.

They're not exactly the same thing. I'd rather play a RPG with no ! on the map, and just use guide if I'm stuck, instead of finding a reason to skip all the NPC dialogue because ! exists.

I play the game as intended. If ! is provided in game I won't turn it off(I'm not a masochist), but if there are no ! I'd just start paying more attention to what NPC says.

IMO, it's better to be the other way around. The game shouldn't provide hand-holding hints in game, if players wants hand-holding just read wiki. If the game provides ! on the map, nobody want to turn it off PLUS dev won't design the game based assuming players turning it off too.

I mean, why do you want to design a map with clear object and have the galka NPC tell the player to head to that object if ! on the map exist? It's extra effort for nothing, you only ever need a !. Then the sense of adventure would be gone that way.





For ****s sake then turn it off! Why is that so hard to grasp!?


Because you can't. In a game with !, the game design is based on the fact that ! exists. The NPC and map design won't provide as much hint.





That simply depends on age. The majority of RPGs have adapted a marker system of some sort in modern gaming with only collectibles being left to find on your own in most cases, some games even mark those for you as well. Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, I could list off a ton of RPGs if I cared to put thought into it that all have a marker system for main objectives, side missions, items, or multiple other things. Also, games that are close worlded games such as most Final Fantasy games are, as well as older RPGs in general, those hardly had anywhere near the open world experience that FFXI has where we have hardly any guidance, by compare, the story in FFXI has hardly any pointers telling you where to go outside of vague reference. This is very unlike a game like FFX or FFXII, the predecessor and successor of this game in the same series, both of which were very straight forward in where you needed to go at all times, FFX was more linear than FFXI or FFXII, while FFXII had markers for Hunts, gave a reminder at the bottom of your map of where to go, and the characters in the CSs almost always mentioned a fairly accurate description of where to go to get where you needed to be.

So, let me sum this up by saying, you have a very narrow view of what a RPG is, or should be, and seem to ignore the majority of newer RPGs as well.

You're right that the game would change as the time progress, to fit majority's taste, That doesn't mean older games are inferior. Some of the older RPG actually require players to write down their objective and write their own game journey, instead of having the game automatically generate a journal.

My POV toward RPG is exactly like how it reads: Role playing game, to live another life in a virtual world. A game with a story/skill/level isn't necessary RPG to me. You're right it's a narrow POV, but everyone has different taste.

The point is, I picked this game because it fits my taste, why do you want to change the game so drasticaly to fit yours? I don't pick linear RPGs, but I don't yell on their forum and ask for a change too. I find ARR too linear and too instant gratification for my taste, do you ever see me yell on their forum and ask the dev to change ARR to FFXI?


I'm gonna be quite honest, I am not even going to bother formulating a proper response to this, I am going to be blunt.

Choice 1 is basically giving up on what could be a chance to live a decent life, though not what you necessarily want at the time, in order to fast track your way to getting what you want but at the same time suffer the risk of never getting it, and dying a pointless wasted life because you refused an offer you had that could have improved your life. Choice 2 is basically accepting an offer given, possibly improving your life, and not necessarily removing all options for completing your goals in the future. You're giving that, which is a real life example of someone I would consider a complete moron for picking 1, and comparing it to a person who deprives themselves of sleep, hygiene, food, or other real life things that are needed, so that they can complete something in a game. .

You have a pretty narrow POV toward life then. In your opinion, your value is the right value, everyone else's value different from yours are shit or moron.

Back before kickstarter exists, I do know someone irl sold every property he had(and broke as fuck) to make a film, that's where my example came from. There are also plenty of ppl start their own business by sacrificing everything they have that even their family left.

Are they idiot/stupid? I don't think so. They just value their goal more than having a happier life.


When it comes to goal in game, the sacrifice is less "legit". Goal in real life carries through entire life, and it's recognized entire life, and it benefits more people, goals in game can be gone after server shut down and only being recognized in same community, and it benefits less people.

That's the really the key difference between rl and game. But ultimately, it's about trying to do something that others choose not to do. I don't view it as negatively as you, in game or rl.

Since you view other ppl picking different path from you moron/idiot, I don't think you'd understand the entire concept anyways.

As for your friend's case, yes I don't know him, but my assumption is based on logic, and it can apply to everyone. He values something else more than FFXI goal, thus he isn't coming back, it's just logic. If you value work more than family, you'd work overtime, find someone else to pick up your kids when they're sick etc. And vice versa.

If he values something else(in your friend's case, work)more than goals in FFXI, there's just nothing you can do about it. Have 2hr a day isn't the real reason, FFXI is playable with 2hr a day of playtime. Making everything handed to him so he can catch up doesn't matter, he may ended up playing for 3 days and quit again. I keep telling everyone one day I'll go back to ARR too, I mean I want to go back, just feel unmotivated, simply because the game isn't interesting anymore. There isn't anything dev/other players can do about it.

Tbh, if he really want to play FFXI THAT much, he'd be back already. Or at least buy an account with better progress to catch up and come back.

[Demonjustin]

! on the map is the same as wiki, but there's 1 key difference: One is guide in game, another one is outside help.

If the game provide a guide in game, majority of ppl would use it. In fact NPCs probably won't bother to provide much hint in dialogue because players would still know where to go via !.

If the game does not provide a guide in game, dev would have to provide more hint in the dialogue, and players refuse to "cheat" with a guide would not use it.

They're not even the same thing. I'd rather play a RPG with no ! on the map, and just use guide if I'm stuck, instead of finding a reason to skip all the NPC dialogue because ! exists.If the knowledge that there is a source of information that can provide you with the location of your goal is enough to sway people to using the wiki rather than not then wiki would be used. You are making it sound as though no choice is given which is not the case, you can access it, thus, you can use it. That is like saying that now that Trust exists all low-man content will be much harder to do, this is due to the fact now every player can equate to 4 when soloing and thus, low-man content will be assumed to always include at least 4 people, with at very least 1 player. This however is not the case, simply because SE would give us a Quest Log or Marker system does not instantly mean that quest dialog would not be meaningful, rather the opposite. They try to work the story into everything they do in this game for the most part which means for us to get this info and put it in our log, we would need to get the info first, this would come from the NPC Dialog.

It seems to me what you are saying in the long run is that people have no self control when presented with an in-game option to obtain this information via a Log or Markers, but when they have to use Wiki, they can prevent themselves from using it without an issue.


You're right that the game would change as the time progress, to fit majority's taste, That doesn't mean older games are inferior. Some of the older RPG actually require players to write down their objective and write their own game journey, instead of having the game automatically generate a journal.

My POV toward RPG is exactly like how it reads: Role playing game, to live another life in a virtual world. A game with a story/skill/level isn't necessary RPG to me. You're right it's a narrow POV, but everyone has different taste.

The point is, I picked this game because it fits my taste, why do you want to change the game so drasticaly to fit yours? I don't pick linear RPGs, but I don't yell on their forum and ask for a change too. I find ARR too linear and too instant gratification for my taste, do you ever see me yell on their forum and ask the dev to change ARR to FFXI?You say I want to change it drastically, explain, what drastic change am I suggesting that you are unable to avoid in your playing of this game?


You have a pretty narrow POV toward life then. In your opinion, your value is the right value, everyone else's value different from yours are shit or moron.

Back before kickstarter campaign exists, I do know someone irl sold every property he had(and broke as fuck) to make a film. There are also plenty of ppl start their own business by sacrificing everything they have that even their family left.

Are they idiot/stupid? I don't think so. They just value their goal more than having a happier life.You don't think so, I do. It also depends on situations. If the person you know who sold his property had enough money from doing so that they could get by until the time of which they completed the movie, that is one thing, but if they are literally losing everything they have by selling it so they can try to make a movie and end up literally living on the street due to that choice until they finish it, then they are an idiot. I do not think my value is superior, I think logically no one can make that choice and be a smart person, it is simply not a good choice to gamble with your life and that is basically what you are doing in such a situation, gambling with your life that you will succeed in your goal after having given everything up, if you fail, you have nothing, if you succeed, you have your dream, but its still a gamble. As I said before as well the reason why you are an idiot for picking that option is because if you stuck with what you have you can still achieve your goals, just not as quickly.

But, I will be honest, this is a video game forum, a general section forum for that video game. This is hardly the place to debate my real life philosophies and principles on which I choose to judge actions people take.


When it comes to goal in game, the sacrifice is less "legit". Goal in real life carries through entire life, and it's recognized entire life, and it benefits more people, goals in game can be gone after server shut down and only being recognized in same community, and it benefits less people.

That's the really the key difference between rl and game. But ultimately, it's about trying to do something that others choose not to do. I don't view it as negatively as you, in game or rl.

Since you view other ppl picking different path from you moron/idiot, I don't think you'd understand the entire concept anyways.I understand the concept, I mean, as I said earlier this thread I want to go into game design, I am a big fan of SE because they have inspired me through their games in a way nothing else has, and it has come to the point I see video games as the current perfect form of art. I explain that because I very much want to make games, at the same time, I can not in any way see the idea of selling everything I have and focusing on that goal a good idea. It is an idea with good intentions, but it is not a good idea, and it is not a good action to take it, to take it would be stupid in my opinion due to the fact that by doing so I am basically rushing to achieve my end goal by doing it now, rather than waiting till later in my life when the goal may be more easily realized or I may have better access to that of which I need in order to achieve what I want.

Allow me to use a poor in-game example of what I am trying to get across.

If someone right now needs Tojil's KI so that they can go buy their items from him, they have Plasm, just need the KI so they can get that gear they really want, and right now they have only 5 friends willing to help them, can get no one to join from shouts, and little gil. Now, they can do 1 of 2 things, either try desperately to low-man it, giving up their gil and possibly even selling some of their gear to buy some Beads the item to make the KI they need to enter the fight, all in hopes that they win that run. The second choice is that they wait, hold onto their items, and be patient, farming gil and improving where they can for now without that gear as well as practicing on outside NMs, then, after the update coming this month, they can do the 6-man version of Delve with their friends and try to get their win that way. Path A presents a chance at victory, but a rushing and foolhardy choice that if failed, could set them back even further than if they had just waited to achieve their goal. Path be present a more slow and steady choice which can pay off in the long run, and in the end will not take nearly as much away from them if they fail.

To me, I see A as foolish, and B as a more intelligent answer. That is my opinion, and I can make my own judgements on these actions, that is my choice. By making such a judgement though I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone else's, I am stating how I see these things, and in all honesty, I think most people would agree that B is the better of the two, while A is not, because in reality its more of a 'slow and steady wins the race' mentality, which is often actually the better of the two in things, though admittedly not always, many variables can change that and make A clearly better.


As for your friend's case, yes I don't know him, but my assumption is based on logic, and it can apply to everyone.I agree, now I am going to skip ahead a bit, please forgive me.


If he values something else(in your friend's case, work)more than goals in FFXI, there's just nothing you can do about it. Have 2hr a day isn't the real reason, FFXI is playable with 2hr a day of playtime.Now, I skipped to this because these is where I am going to end this post, replying to this right here.

You say 2 hours a day isn't the real reason, and this game is playable with 2 hours of playtime a day. This is true, but, ask yourself how true it is for someone who is behind rather than on par with the game. You and I may be able to make progress in 2 hours, sure, but I have a Relic and an Empyrean and am working on a Mythic, you a Mythic, we both have done Endgame events such as Delve quite a bit, we both have well geared jobs, we both have been playing a long time, and we both have been basically caught up to content for some time as well. In 2 hours, we can easily find people we need to do something or find something to do because we know people, we know the game, and we know what needs to be done. All of these things are vastly different than what he would face if he returned.

To explain the state of his character would be difficult but I will do my best real quick. He had 3 level 75s, SAM, MNK, and DRG, he also had somewhat decent gear for those jobs at their level, his BLU is at around 50 but he loved the job and never got his AF due to the whole Staging Point thing which he could never finish due to Imps. He had done rank missions up to rank 5, never getting rank 6 due to lack of interest in Dynamis, he had no CoP progress or any other expansion progress really, he has probably around 500k last I knew, he never broke a mil and sold a lot of stuff before he left the game last time. I bring all this up because it is a lot of things he would be expected to do in the game today. If he came back and tried to gear up his BLU, which is the job he said he would most likely level upon his return if he returned in the future, he would need to finish CoP for Rajas, RotZ for Suppanomimi, and get a few other standard pieces of gear such as things from Bayld or Sparks.

There would be a ton of work to do in order to get to where most players are at, and you are talking about 2 hours a day to do all of this. Can you blame someone for not wanting to spend 2 hours of their day when they are off just so they can attempt to catch up on a game? Just because he doesn't isn't a sign he doesn't want to play, but rather it can also be a sign that he just doesn't want to have to spend his time off trying to catch up with people so that he can play the game with people again.

[OKOA]

You say 2 hours a day isn't the real reason, and this game is playable with 2 hours of playtime a day. This is true, but, ask yourself how true it is for someone who is behind rather than on par with the game. You and I may be able to make progress in 2 hours, sure, but I have a Relic and an Empyrean and am working on a Mythic, you a Mythic, we both have done Endgame events such as Delve quite a bit, we both have well geared jobs, we both have been playing a long time, and we both have been basically caught up to content for some time as well. In 2 hours, we can easily find people we need to do something or find something to do because we know people, we know the game, and we know what needs to be done. All of these things are vastly different than what he would face if he returned.

To explain the state of his character would be difficult but I will do my best real quick. He had 3 level 75s, SAM, MNK, and DRG, he also had somewhat decent gear for those jobs at their level, his BLU is at around 50 but he loved the job and never got his AF due to the whole Staging Point thing which he could never finish due to Imps. He had done rank missions up to rank 5, never getting rank 6 due to lack of interest in Dynamis, he had no CoP progress or any other expansion progress really, he has probably around 500k last I knew, he never broke a mil and sold a lot of stuff before he left the game last time. I bring all this up because it is a lot of things he would be expected to do in the game today. If he came back and tried to gear up his BLU, which is the job he said he would most likely level upon his return if he returned in the future, he would need to finish CoP for Rajas, RotZ for Suppanomimi, and get a few other standard pieces of gear such as things from Bayld or Sparks.

There would be a ton of work to do in order to get to where most players are at, and you are talking about 2 hours a day to do all of this. Can you blame someone for not wanting to spend 2 hours of their day when they are off just so they can attempt to catch up on a game? Just because he doesn't isn't a sign he doesn't want to play, but rather it can also be a sign that he just doesn't want to have to spend his time off trying to catch up with people so that he can play the game with people again.



Correct.

He would spend 2 hours on his first day trying to learn 1 stubborn BLU spell. Only 50 more to go.

Try to group without them? Sorry, you don't have the right procs.

He'd be better off just bandwagoning monk if he wanted to even experience the content.

Then you get into the whole paradox Crevox is facing, you're punished for trying to pick and play a job you like.

As the saying goes:

Damned if you do, Damned in you don't

[Afania]

If the knowledge that there is a source of information that can provide you with the location of your goal is enough to sway people to using the wiki rather than not then wiki would be used. You are making it sound as though no choice is given which is not the case, you can access it, thus, you can use it. That is like saying that now that Trust exists all low-man content will be much harder to do, this is due to the fact now every player can equate to 4 when soloing and thus, low-man content will be assumed to always include at least 4 people, with at very least 1 player. This however is not the case, simply because SE would give us a Quest Log or Marker system does not instantly mean that quest dialog would not be meaningful, rather the opposite. They try to work the story into everything they do in this game for the most part which means for us to get this info and put it in our log, we would need to get the info first, this would come from the NPC Dialog.

It seems to me what you are saying in the long run is that people have no self control when presented with an in-game option to obtain this information via a Log or Markers, but when they have to use Wiki, they can prevent themselves from using it without an issue.



Personally I only use wiki if I'm really stuck, but if the game tell me where to go next, I wouldn't turn it off because it's in game.

I consider reading wiki cheating(I'm not the only gamer with such POV), I like to play the game as intended, and often try to not to rely on online guide. But if the marker is there, I usually don't turn it off.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you really think hand-holding on the map with ! doesn't affect NPC dialogue/map placement in game design.

If your mom ask you to retrieve 3 apples
"Hey Justin, get me 3 apples from the kitchen!"

"Where are the apples?"

"One is under the white cupboard, another one is in the sink, there's one more that's probably in the garbage can"

"Yikes!"

This is more like a conversation irl, something that'd happen without ! on the map.

If you're in a game, it'd be like

"Hey Justin, get me 3 apples from the kitchen!"

"Ok(clicks ok)"

Then ! pop on the map and you just have to follow that !.

There's no need to explain where are the apples because of ! on the map, so the game usually doesn't explain it and just rely on ! most of the time. I've notice this a lot in Skyrim, a game I've been playing recently and heavily rely on ! on the map. The NPC/in game rarely offer extra info on where to go just because ! exists. But in earlier TES games they'd offer more hint because you need hint to continue.

Further more, there's no reason not to use a in game help if it's there. I like to play the game as intended, having a ! on the map and use it is playing as intended, it just doesn't offer the same experience if the game force the player to read the text to find out where to go next.

It's not a "which is better" arguement, it's a "whether it offers same playing experience or not" arguement. Find out where to go via ! or find out where to go by reading dialogue isn't the same playing experience.




You don't think so, I do. It also depends on situations. If the person you know who sold his property had enough money from doing so that they could get by until the time of which they completed the movie, that is one thing, but if they are literally losing everything they have by selling it so they can try to make a movie and end up literally living on the street due to that choice until they finish it, then they are an idiot. I do not think my value is superior, I think logically no one can make that choice and be a smart person, it is simply not a good choice to gamble with your life and that is basically what you are doing in such a situation, gambling with your life that you will succeed in your goal after having given everything up, if you fail, you have nothing, if you succeed, you have your dream, but its still a gamble. As I said before as well the reason why you are an idiot for picking that option is because if you stuck with what you have you can still achieve your goals, just not as quickly.


I did said the option 2 isn't "stuck with what you have and wait for your chance", but "give up your goal entirely". Obviously if option 2 still give you a chance to accomplish the goal, everyone would pick option 2. But the sacrifice in option 2 is, you'd have to live a life as a cashier entire life.

No matter which option you'd pick, some people are willing to overcome the obstacles if the goal is attractive. That's the whole point(and it's been like that for hundreds and hundreds of years). If I'm not interested in making the film, why'd I choose to be broke as fuck? If I'm not interested in any goal in a game, why'd I return and face the obstacles? The goal doesn't weight more than the obstacles, may as well ask the dev to give goals more weight, instead of changing the obstacles. You CAN reduce the obstacles and maybe more would come, but I hightly doubt it's going to last long.





Allow me to use a poor in-game example of what I am trying to get across.

If someone right now needs Tojil's KI so that they can go buy their items from him, they have Plasm, just need the KI so they can get that gear they really want, and right now they have only 5 friends willing to help them, can get no one to join from shouts, and little gil. Now, they can do 1 of 2 things, either try desperately to low-man it, giving up their gil and possibly even selling some of their gear to buy some Beads the item to make the KI they need to enter the fight, all in hopes that they win that run. The second choice is that they wait, hold onto their items, and be patient, farming gil and improving where they can for now without that gear as well as practicing on outside NMs, then, after the update coming this month, they can do the 6-man version of Delve with their friends and try to get their win that way. Path A presents a chance at victory, but a rushing and foolhardy choice that if failed, could set them back even further than if they had just waited to achieve their goal. Path be present a more slow and steady choice which can pay off in the long run, and in the end will not take nearly as much away from them if they fail.

To me, I see A as foolish, and B as a more intelligent answer. That is my opinion, and I can make my own judgements on these actions, that is my choice. By making such a judgement though I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone else's, I am stating how I see these things, and in all honesty, I think most people would agree that B is the better of the two, while A is not, because in reality its more of a 'slow and steady wins the race' mentality, which is often actually the better of the two in things, though admittedly not always, many variables can change that and make A clearly better.


I agree in that case, wait is a better choice. But my example wasn't the same case.






You say 2 hours a day isn't the real reason, and this game is playable with 2 hours of playtime a day. This is true, but, ask yourself how true it is for someone who is behind rather than on par with the game. You and I may be able to make progress in 2 hours, sure, but I have a Relic and an Empyrean and am working on a Mythic, you a Mythic, we both have done Endgame events such as Delve quite a bit, we both have well geared jobs, we both have been playing a long time, and we both have been basically caught up to content for some time as well. In 2 hours, we can easily find people we need to do something or find something to do because we know people, we know the game, and we know what needs to be done. All of these things are vastly different than what he would face if he returned.

To explain the state of his character would be difficult but I will do my best real quick. He had 3 level 75s, SAM, MNK, and DRG, he also had somewhat decent gear for those jobs at their level, his BLU is at around 50 but he loved the job and never got his AF due to the whole Staging Point thing which he could never finish due to Imps. He had done rank missions up to rank 5, never getting rank 6 due to lack of interest in Dynamis, he had no CoP progress or any other expansion progress really, he has probably around 500k last I knew, he never broke a mil and sold a lot of stuff before he left the game last time. I bring all this up because it is a lot of things he would be expected to do in the game today. If he came back and tried to gear up his BLU, which is the job he said he would most likely level upon his return if he returned in the future, he would need to finish CoP for Rajas, RotZ for Suppanomimi, and get a few other standard pieces of gear such as things from Bayld or Sparks.

There would be a ton of work to do in order to get to where most players are at, and you are talking about 2 hours a day to do all of this. Can you blame someone for not wanting to spend 2 hours of their day when they are off just so they can attempt to catch up on a game? Just because he doesn't isn't a sign he doesn't want to play, but rather it can also be a sign that he just doesn't want to have to spend his time off trying to catch up with people so that he can play the game with people again.

I agree that it's going to take a lot of time to catch up with 2hr a day of playtime if he's still lv 75 and haven't done missions. It IS still doable after months or years of playing, but only if he really, really want to play the game(back to my original point, goal>obstacle).

At one point of time I play FFXI for about 2hr a day or less too, and not really in a position to make a Mythic, because it REALLY is going to take forever if you don't play a lot. But I really, really want a Mythic, so I ended up spent 3+ years on one. I'm not more hardcore than any of your casual friends, but I want one, so I can overcome the obstacles.

No really, most of the goals are doable, but you really have to want it bad. I can totally understand why your friend isn't coming back though. I probably won't return if I'm stuck at 75 and no real goal in this game to spend 2hr a day playing. Even if I go back I may not find the game interesting enough to stuck with it for 3 more years.

That's the real reason why I defend for long term goal, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I know quite a bit of people, including myself, stick around because of the long term goal. There are plenty of games out there with better quality of life when playing the game, I can't play any of them for more than 2 months because no goals are interesting.

Will he come back if he just handed a max lv character with all missions done so he can play with other people? Maybe. But it's just a shallow gameplay with no souls.....I never reach max lv in WoW, if someone want to hand me a max lv WoW character I'd probably give it a try, but it's just a shallow gameplay with zero journey experience that I don't see how I can stick for more than 3 days. There are no meaning, no backstory nor emotional attachment behind a character that's ready for everything build by someone else. Hand every noob/returning player a max lv character and remove the journey on the way toward the goal so they can play the game do more harm than good in the long run.

[Demonjustin]

Personally I only use wiki if I'm really stuck, but if the game tell me where to go next, I wouldn't turn it off because it's in game.So it can't be in the game because otherwise you would use it, even though you won't use a Wiki. I... I don't really know what to say to that, really, no words, not because of it being a good answer, but I mean I just don't know how to reply to the idea that you won't use Wiki because its outside of the game and yet if it were in the game you would feel obligated to use it and thus it is hand-holding whereas the current experience apparently is not.


I did said the option 2 isn't "stuck with what you have and wait for your chance", but "give up your goal entirely". Obviously if option 2 still give you a chance to accomplish the goal, everyone would pick option 2. But the sacrifice in option 2 is, you'd have to live a life as a cashier entire life.

I agree in that case, wait is a better choice. But my example wasn't the same case.You're giving a completely unrealistic example then. You are giving examples where the person would have to know the future and be guaranteed a success or a definite outcome before they even began and made their choice, which is not possible in real life or in the game.



I agree that it's going to take a lot of time to catch up with 2hr a day of playtime if he's still lv 75 and haven't done missions. It IS still doable after months or years of playing, but only if he really, really want to play the game(back to my original point, goal>obstacle).This is what I have been trying to get across to some extent, the obstacles in the way are what make the required motivation to achieve that goal greater than the motivation he has to achieve it. Were the restrictions in the game lighter and the time needed to catch up shorter, the chances of his return would be greater. Thus, if changes were made to remove obstacles, it stands to reason that you would see more people playing and/or returning due to the fact they can catch up more easily, and thus, enjoy the game much more quickly during their spare time.

[Lithera]

I'm not sure what's so "disturbed" about, every person have full control of their life, and choose what's important to them. Some value work over family, some value family over work. Some value accomplishment in a hobby(video game/making a film/owning a company). I have no issue with others trying to reach their goal, but I don't think the goal would value the same if the obstacles aren't the same.

Every choice you make, you make a sacrifice. If you choose to work overtime for more money and better position, you sacrifice your health and your family. Everyday when you make a choice to do "something", you always ended up sacrificing something else for it.

Do I sacrificed something for video games? I'd be lying if I say no, after all, it's thousands of hr in my life gone, spent on video games. But so do you, and everyone else who plays any video game title. Even if you spent only 30hr in your entire life on video game, it's still a sacrifice, just that the sacrifice is smaller.
It is disturbing because it is ignoring the last thing SE says to us right before we hit enter. To NOT ignore your family, health, or your job. They don't want their players to become someone who looks like they haven't literally moved off the couch in days. Also most people work over time not because they value their work more than their family. They do it so maybe they can afford a better place to live in, go on a really nice trip with the family because they haven't been able to in a long while, or to go and buy that someone in their life that be their spouse, child, parent, or even a friend that really could use a reaaaly good item to help their dream or job be accomplished better or faster. Maybe they do it so their kid can go to college.

Though it seems to you that it is always going to be one or the other in game or not. Also there are times when you do have the ! on your screen and still have trouble finding the damn thing. Specially if the map doesn't say do a good job with height. Even if it does it still might take a very small amount of time to realize it is at the top of a building or maybe in a building right next to it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I consider reading wiki cheating(I'm not the only gamer with such POV)

That's certainly not representative of the general player population.


I like to play the game as intended

Square-Enix has linked to "Community Sites," including those dedicated to "Data & Strategies" since at least February of 2004 (https://web.archive.org/web/20040219024549/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.List?polg_loc=en&c=2). Those links have included a wiki since at least September of 2006 (https://web.archive.org/web/20060911165448/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.List?polg_loc=en&c=2), "recommended" since at least October of 2006 (https://web.archive.org/web/20061004221818/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.Top?polg_loc=en). One wiki or another has been a "Premier Site" since at least March of 2007 (https://web.archive.org/web/20070328142542/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.Top?polg_loc=en). Where the hell have you been?

What you think is "intended" and what Square-Enix clearly actually intends are two very different things.


But if the marker is there, I usually don't turn it off.

So we must all suffer because of your lack of willpower?

[Afania]

That's certainly not representative of the general player population.



I've met players that have to read strategy guide/wiki to play games, and I've met players refuse to touch strategy guide no matter what.

There are different kind of players, but idk what type of player are "general player population"





So we must all suffer because of your lack of willpower?

It has nothing to do with willpower, if you read previous examples.




It is disturbing because it is ignoring the last thing SE says to us right before we hit enter. To NOT ignore your family, health, or your job. They don't want their players to become someone who looks like they haven't literally moved off the couch in days. Also most people work over time not because they value their work more than their family. They do it so maybe they can afford a better place to live in, go on a really nice trip with the family because they haven't been able to in a long while, or to go and buy that someone in their life that be their spouse, child, parent, or even a friend that really could use a reaaaly good item to help their dream or job be accomplished better or faster. Maybe they do it so their kid can go to college.

Though it seems to you that it is always going to be one or the other in game or not. Also there are times when you do have the ! on your screen and still have trouble finding the damn thing. Specially if the map doesn't say do a good job with height. Even if it does it still might take a very small amount of time to realize it is at the top of a building or maybe in a building right next to it.

Maybe that's YOUR reason to work overtime, but I know quite a lot of ppl work overtime for different reasons. The term workaholic exist for a reason. My manager has no kids(basically no real reason to work overtime), he doesn't get overtime pay and he go home at 10pm everyday starting at 9am.

Also if you're "disturbed" because of someone else's value is different from your's, you'd be disturbed a lot. There are a lot of ppl sacrifice family/health/work for another hobby or goal(not necessary video game, but many different hobby too), because they think the sacrifice is worth it. If you're going to feel "disbrubed" about someone else's way of living, there's endless disturbance waiting for you.






So it can't be in the game because otherwise you would use it, even though you won't use a Wiki. I... I don't really know what to say to that, really, no words, not because of it being a good answer, but I mean I just don't know how to reply to the idea that you won't use Wiki because its outside of the game and yet if it were in the game you would feel obligated to use it and thus it is hand-holding whereas the current experience apparently is not.


I don't feel "obligated" to use it, a game with ! by design is there for you to use, a wiki is not. What's so hard to understand about it? Draylo stated he play the game as intended pages back.

I even give you damn conversation example about how the game design would be different with a ! on the map. So you study game design but you can't understand the difference? If a game has no ! on the map, do you design conversation and environment the same way as having a ! on the map? No.

[Lithera]

Yes there is and only when someone comes up with a good counter to your all or nothing pov you still go back to having everyone else is wrong because to you EVERYONE chooses one thing or another. You ask others to stop speaking for everyone else yet you do the same thing and treat it as absolute end all be all. That there are no other reasons or ways to do something except the examples you give. I am not disturbed by a person tossing everything else just to complete something but feel sorry that said person. Why, because they couldn't find a way to get to w/e they wanted without causing great loss in the rest of their lives.

Let's use the Olympics as an example to you the only people who should win medals would be Russians or Chinese because they literally eat, sleep, breath their sport. They start it when they're three, they get into the best training programs or schools, they get tutors for school, instead of going to the mall to hang out with friends they're training. Yet we all know this isn't true or people from other countries would never see the medals podium.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

There are different kind of players, but idk what type of player are "general player population"

The player population that S-E is trying to foster and cater to by having their website linking to strategy sites and having their GM's promote them.

Even if I grant you that "most players" aren't like that, it's certainly what S-E wants most players to be like, which gets back to the "intent" you were so recently in favor of following.

[bungiefanNA]

Hmm... I don't think Final Fantasy XIV has that "don't neglect your life" warning anywhere when logging in.

[Mirage]

because that game doesn't have as many things that are designed to suck the life out of you

[Demonjustin]

Square-Enix has linked to "Community Sites," including those dedicated to "Data & Strategies" since at least February of 2004 (https://web.archive.org/web/20040219024549/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.List?polg_loc=en&c=2). Those links have included a wiki since at least September of 2006 (https://web.archive.org/web/20060911165448/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.List?polg_loc=en&c=2), "recommended" since at least October of 2006 (https://web.archive.org/web/20061004221818/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.Top?polg_loc=en). One wiki or another has been a "Premier Site" since at least March of 2007 (https://web.archive.org/web/20070328142542/http://www.playonline.com/polapps/s/fansite.site.Top?polg_loc=en). Where the hell have you been?

What you think is "intended" and what Square-Enix clearly actually intends are two very different things.I would also like to point out that GMs will often point you toward Wiki when asking about issues with the game or quests which do not allow you to proceed.

[Afania]

The player population that S-E is trying to foster and cater to by having their website linking to strategy sites and having their GM's promote them.

Even if I grant you that "most players" aren't like that, it's certainly what S-E wants most players to be like, which gets back to the "intent" you were so recently in favor of following.

You keep directing the arguement back to "FFXI is better with a !", but my arguement has been about "IMO, RPG is more fun without a ! and design the game based on the fact that there are no !"

If the game needs ! to know where to go next, then the goal is to make it NOT needing !(nor wiki). I honestly just can't understand what's so good about ! on the map and all that ! obsessions.



because that game doesn't have as many things that are designed to suck the life out of you

I know a tons of no-lifers in XIV, playing 12+ hrs a day.

How much time you spend on a video game per day isn't relevant to the title, but your own willpower.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

my arguement has been about "IMO, RPG is more fun without a ! and design the game based on the fact that there are no !"

Your argument is that any additional assistance is not strictly necessary (in spite of the publisher shaping the game toward that need and actively directing players to outside "community" sources) and that your opinion is "more correct" and shared by a non-negligible portion of the playerbase despite objective facts to the contrary.


If the game needs ! to know where to go next, then the goal is to make it NOT needing !(nor wiki).

That ship has sailed. I'd say that ship sailed even before FFXI got released in North America. I was halfway to Toraimarai Canal (try that before level 10!) before I used the Brady guide to find that it was another non-obvious secret passage I needed for my very first mission.

That's not going to be "fixed" without effectively writing a whole new game. Square-Enix has already done that; it's called "Final Fantasy XIV."


I honestly just can't understand what's so good about ! on the map and all that ! obsessions.

The official source of information, the Community Sites program, has stagnated, with the most recent additions being in 2009. The community itself has fragmented, to the point where the most useful sources of information aren't even a part of the Community Sites program, while participation overall has dwindled. What worked seven years ago doesn't work now. This is the biggest reason why S-E has chosen to do all this stuff in-house with XIV rather than again relying on the community, in spite of that community being larger and more vibrant than XI's perhaps ever was.

The simplest solution would be publishing useful information directly onto playonline.com. The most useful solution, however, the one that helps attract and keep new players to this old game, is to employ something in-client, even if it is unobtrusive enough to spare your precious sensibilities.

Even now nobody is forcing you to talk to a Merry Map Marker.

[detlef]

If I want brain-dead questing I just play 14. Spam enter and just look to the side of my screen to know exactly what to do, what to kill, and where to go. Teleport there if necessary, hop onto my chocobo and I'm done.

I feel bad for that game's writers, nobody even reads what they wrote.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

If I want brain-dead questing

Then don't do it that way.

I myself don't like the new icons used for spells and abilities on PC and Xbox 360. But rather than denouncing the new icons for being too WoW-ish for my glorious 1337ness ("You need a unique icon for every spell? Can't be bothered to read the spell name? GTFO n00b!"), I simply went into the menus, changed from the new default back to the old icons, and got on with my life.

[detlef]

Then don't do it that way.

I myself don't like the new icons used for spells and abilities on PC and Xbox 360. But rather than denouncing the new icons for being too WoW-ish for my glorious 1337ness ("You need a unique icon for every spell? Can't be bothered to read the spell name? GTFO n00b!"), I simply went into the menus, changed from the new default back to the old icons, and got on with my life.Yikes, you have such a terrible attitude when you post. You can refute my statement without acting like I pooped in your laundry hamper.

Anyway, I don't have a horse in this race. I really don't have an issue with anything that has made the game easier. If they make quests easier so be it. My only concern is that it seems like it would take a lot of development effort to implement changes to what may not be a problem. My issue with the OP's complaints boil down to two things: I am fine with game content being locked behind mission progression and I like the Mythic quest the way it is (with a few minor changes like faster assault tags, more favorable ToAU king spawn conditions, and things of that nature). Anything else, I don't really have an issue with. I just think the problems are being exaggerated.

[Crevox]

It's not "brain-dead" if they give you some kind of hint on where to go. People who quest in this game do not sit there magically trying to figure out where they are supposed to go. Anyone who does a quest in this game does it because they know they need something from it, and when they do, they alt tab to the wiki and look at what they're supposed to do, because the NPCs do not TELL you with enough detail the majority of the time. As was the example in the earlier pages, she tells you to search the ENTIRE DESERT.

It doesn't become "brain dead" if she tells you some kind of HINT as to where it is. People do read the quest dialogue; but as you can prove time and time again, don't even dare try to trust it to give enough information on what to do to complete the quest they're giving you.

That goes for missions too.

[detlef]

When I said brain-dead I meant 14. I was trying to say that implementing the exact same system into XI would be brain-dead, like 14 is. I think that that would be too extreme and would be long and difficult to program. Something like minor alterations to the quest log or NPC dialog is something I would support.

I don't see it as the huge problem you do, but I am not against what you're suggesting.

[Crevox]

I don't see it as the huge problem you do, but I am not against what you're suggesting.

Honestly I personally think it's too much work to go back and revise a bunch of quests at this point.

However, for stuff like reforging AF, you shouldn't have to complete CoP. You can leave the quests as they are; if people want to do it for the story or whatever, cool, they can do that. However, it shouldn't be a requirement for important things like reforging your AF armor, when you don't even need to visit Limbus or anything to do that.

[detlef]

However, for stuff like reforging AF, you shouldn't have to complete CoP. You can leave the quests as they are; if people want to do it for the story or whatever, cool, they can do that. However, it shouldn't be a requirement for important things like reforging your AF armor, when you don't even need to visit Limbus or anything to do that.I still have my own opinion, but if you and others feel that strongly about it, then the devs will hopefully see that and do what they have to do. Mythics requirements should still be significant though, aside from easing up on the more restrictive stuff like I mentioned before.

[Camiie]

If I want brain-dead questing I just play 14. Spam enter and just look to the side of my screen to know exactly what to do, what to kill, and where to go. Teleport there if necessary, hop onto my chocobo and I'm done.

I feel bad for that game's writers, nobody even reads what they wrote.

Brain dead questing? That'd be FOV, GOV, and ROE. They're quests without ANY pretense of story AT ALL. At least in XIV or WoW you get some flimsy excuse as to why the local Spriggan population must die or why the Horde needs 10 snake toenails. XI's devs are not even trying anymore with the quests that actually are worth doing.