Reforged AF - Blocked on Step 1?

[Mordain]

I was excited to pick up the quest to reforge my AF armour, and followed the advice in the patch notes by speaking to Monisette in Port Jeuno. Monisette told me to speak to Sagheera first, which I did. Sagheera talked to me about upgrading relic armour, and then I talked to Monisette again. Monisette simply tells me that Sagheera still hasn't mentioned me to her.

"Sagheera has never mentioned anyone who fits your description. How about you follow the proper protocol and speak to her first?"

I zoned out and back in, logged out and back in, spoke to Sagheera again (she only asks me what relic armour I'm interested in, now), and I can't get Monisette to recognize me. Have I locked myself into needing to upgrade at least one relic piece (complete Sagheera's quest) before I can pick up the AF reforging quest?

Please, if anyone is familiar with these NPCs and quests, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[Vasch]

Do you have Sea access?

[Mordain]

Thanks for your reply, Vasch. I do not have access to Sea yet. Is there something that Sea unlocks? Like many I'm a returning player and missed out on a lot of content over the years. I am not far past the Diabolos fight in the CoP progression, so perhaps I need to sink some more time into that story.

[Kwate]

After completing CoP 7-5 you get sea access.

[Demonjustin]

Besides giving Rajas Ring at the end, which everyone should get, it is also a requirement that you have to complete it to Reforge your gear.

[Crevox]

You really have to have beaten CoP to reforge the AF gear?

Why is such a random requirement in place? "Go do this really old content, all of it, in order to prepare yourself for current content, even if you already have the items"

It's just so bogus for players like myself. I was so happy I managed to get the pages and stuff together for the reforged AF in preparation for when I hit 99, and again it looks like I'm nowhere close because I have to go back to do tons of old missions in order to be able to get current content gear.

It just never ends. SE makes it so stupidly difficult to start this game as a new player. There's SO many things you have to go back and do, even at a high level, just to be able to play the game.

I'm just sitting here, just thinking about all of what I'm gonna have to go through. It just makes me not even want to play... I've already done SO MUCH, and every time I think I'm ready to actually level to 99 and enjoy myself, there's something more, some other chore I have to go complete first.

Just... sigh...

[Karah]

You really have to have beaten CoP to reforge the AF gear?

Why is such a random requirement in place? "Go do this really old content, all of it, in order to prepare yourself for current content, even if you already have the items"

If you don't have sea access, then you don't have limbus access, which means you DON'T have the items.

Consider yourself lucky that you can skip the limbus step, even though you have to have access to it. They should've FORCED people to have the +1 gear already.

[Crevox]

If you don't have sea access, then you don't have limbus access, which means you DON'T have the items.

Consider yourself lucky that you can skip the limbus step, even though you have to have access to it. They should've FORCED people to have the +1 gear already.

I have 10 chapter 1's, my AF horn, scarlet linen, and a phoenix feather. I don't have the materials? There's more?

I'm a complete noob to this game. I started like 10 days ago.

[Ravenmore]

You really have to have beaten CoP to reforge the AF gear?

Why is such a random requirement in place? "Go do this really old content, all of it, in order to prepare yourself for current content, even if you already have the items"

It's just so bogus for players like myself. I was so happy I managed to get the pages and stuff together for the reforged AF in preparation for when I hit 99, and again it looks like I'm nowhere close because I have to go back to do tons of old missions in order to be able to get current content gear.

It just never ends. SE makes it so stupidly difficult to start this game as a new player. There's SO many things you have to go back and do, even at a high level, just to be able to play the game.

I'm just sitting here, just thinking about all of what I'm gonna have to go through. It just makes me not even want to play... I've already done SO MUCH, and every time I think I'm ready to actually level to 99 and enjoy myself, there's something more, some other chore I have to go complete first.

Just... sigh...


It's story line missions and one of the best in the game. At 99 you can solo all but one mission maybe two and only cause you have to have two people to open a door. Really at 99 the fights are a joke. A least now you don't have to spam though CSs cause people are waiting and you can take your time and enjoy them. Se does story better then battle so its at least enjoyable and there is step by step on wiki that you should be able to finish it in a week once you are 99. One of the great things about story is it isn't outdated by the next new story it is just as enjoyable to you now as it was to me, maybe even more enjoyable to you since you won't have to deal with fail shouts statics falling apart half way though and can do it at your own pace any time you want to do it. Heck you don't even have to beat the whole story line once you can set foot into sea you can get limbus access meaning you can have your af reforged then. As Karah said you do not have to step foot into limbus to have your af reforge having af+1 only saves pages.

[Crevox]

It's story line missions and one of the best in the game. At 99 you can solo all but one mission maybe two and only cause you have to have two people to open a door. Really at 99 the fights are a joke. A least now you don't have to spam though CSs cause people are waiting and you can take your time and enjoy them. Se does story better then battle so its at least enjoyable and there is step by step on wiki that you should be able to finish it in a week once you are 99. One of the great things about story is it isn't outdated by the next new story it is just as enjoyable to you now as it was to me, maybe even more enjoyable to you since you won't have to deal with fail shouts statics falling apart half way though and can do it at your own pace any time you want to do it. Heck you don't even have to beat the whole story line once you can set foot into sea you can get limbus access meaning you can have your af reforged then. As Karah said you do not have to step foot into limbus to have your af reforge having af+1 only saves pages.

It's not about the difficulty, it's about the pain of running around and doing all the boring in between.

I want to get the story, yes, but I could youtube it easier or read through the scripts on the wiki. It's a massive time sink.

[Ravenmore]

It's not about the difficulty, it's about the pain of running around and doing all the boring in between.

I want to get the story, yes, but I could youtube it easier or read through the scripts on the wiki. It's a massive time sink.

Sorry I don't feel your pain. Took me a forever to find a group that would stick together long enough to finish it(which was the hardest part of it all) so suck it up it's not hard and by far is not that bad of a time sink with how freaking easy it is to move around now. The teleport between home points was just added so the rest of us had to do all that running with out VW warps, Home point teleports, lower movement speed. Really you think a week is a massive time wow.

[Zeargi]

It's not about the difficulty, it's about the pain of running around and doing all the boring in between.

I want to get the story, yes, but I could youtube it easier or read through the scripts on the wiki. It's a massive time sink.

>_>; I kind of feel that MMO's ARE a massive time sink. If you aren't willing to put forth the time to do things, I don't think you should be rewarded for that. There's A LOT of things that come from actually completing the story.

[bungiefanNA]

I have 10 chapter 1's, my AF horn, scarlet linen, and a phoenix feather. I don't have the materials? There's more?

I'm a complete noob to this game. I started like 10 days ago.

You have the materials, not the quest/mission completion. Certain events/NPCs only unlock when you are so far through an expansion. Sagheera and her partner won't talk to adventurers until you have access to Al Taieu, as their were added 8+ years ago to upgrade AF with items from Limbus, and until recently, you couldn't get those items without doing Limbus.

SE made the changes they did to make it so more of the userbase has completed the early expansions, as the census data showed that the majority hadn't beaten them. Now they are giving more incentives to complete them. The AA fights require near completion of Zilart. I imagine reforging of Relic and Empyrean armor, when that comes out will require near-completion of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess.

[SilentSteel]

The reason that sea and thus limbus is required, is because the Reforge person is tied to the AF upgrade person. The AF upgrades are only possible after you have sea and limbus access, cause like Karah said you need Limbus to be able to have upgraded your AF to +1 in the first place. Yes you don't need to +1 your AF to reforge it, but likely with the way it's coded, in order to reforge both normal or +1 the NPCs needed to be tied together.

[Renaissance2K]

Chains of Promathia's mission storyline was nice in that it trickled out rewards and unlocks as you went along.

The zones that were released with that expansion pack are still some of the coolest in the game. There's a lot of rich content and many small stylistic goodies that the development team hasn't quite repeated with the areas that were released since. Riverne, Lufaise Meadows, and Al'taieu are all really, really cool, and the central structures in Sea (especially with the music) really do a good job of making the last few missions feel like a crawl through a traditional "final dungeon" crawl in an old Final Fantasy game.

That's assuming you don't just unlock Sea and quit.

I have to ask... If you're not interested in working your way through long, detailed storylines, what about Final Fantasy XI appealed to you? I don't suspect you're a fan of the franchise, given that many of the design choices you seem to dislike are hallmarks of the series as a whole. I don't suspect you're just an MMO hound, given that FFXI hasn't been the flavor of the month since WoW was released. There's plenty of other MMOs out there that are faster, cheaper, and have a more user base.

I'm not trying to shove out a new user, especially not these days. I'm genuinely curious as to why you started out with a game that puts such emphasis on exploration and lore when you don't seem to have the patience for how they were implemented.

[Xantavia]

If you decide to go through CoP, could you do me a favor? Back when I did it with the level caps, they mentioned a restriction on Phonemia Aquaducts in order to weaken the monsters. (storyline reason for game mechanic). I'm wondering if the line is still there and makes no sense anymore, or if it has been removed completely.

[Zeargi]

If you decide to go through CoP, could you do me a favor? Back when I did it with the level caps, they mentioned a restriction on Phonemia Aquaducts in order to weaken the monsters. (storyline reason for game mechanic). I'm wondering if the line is still there and makes no sense anymore, or if it has been removed completely.

I'm pretty sure that dialogue is still there.

[Crevox]

I'm not trying to shove out a new user, especially not these days. I'm genuinely curious as to why you started out with a game that puts such emphasis on exploration and lore when you don't seem to have the patience for how they were implemented.

There is a TON of stuff to do in this game. I want to explore it at my own pace, not be forced to do it for such a silly reason. I planned to do CoP at some point, but now I have to do it in order to get my armor.


Sorry I don't feel your pain. Took me a forever to find a group

I don't really care about the past, I'm talking about the right now.

[Ravenmore]

There is a TON of stuff to do in this game. I want to explore it at my own pace, not be forced to do it for such a silly reason. I planned to do CoP at some point, but now I have to do it in order to get my armor.



I don't really care about the past, I'm talking about the right now.

I am talking about right now it is so easy and you could most likely do it in a couple of days if it wasn't for the couple of JP midnight waits that there is in CoP. Really you have smn so you get fleet wind to move around even faster. Also if you have any plans of doing AA fights you have better knock out ZM as well which at 75 could be done in 2 to 3 days so at 99 should be even more of a breeze. As for relic I'm not sure if you would have to have rank 6 to upgrade it since you can buy relic armor with login points and once sagheera will talk to you could upgrade it to relic +1.

[FaeQueenCory]

They should've FORCED people to have the +1 gear already.
Forcing people to sink millions of manhours to get a random drop is a waste of life....
And a tell-tale sign of being an archagent of the Devil.

Letting people do a bit "more" grinding to bypass the potential at years of more grinding...
Was genius. (But not really because it's no different between the implementation of the +2 for Relic gear.)
This lets more people get better/relevant gear.
Which allows for more people to do harder/relevant content.

This is a MMO.
Playing with other people.... is kinda the point.
And allowing for more people to play at the same tier together... is always good.
(remember when skirmish gear was added? 113!? that's "better" than the delve gear! ... only it isn't. It's the same tier of gear as a r15 piece... and depending on the piece, one will be better for your job than another. But what was really so beautiful about the skirmish gear was that it gave more people access to "delve" level gear... which allowed for more people to do Delve... The AA redux is the same. "don't like delve? Like 'oldschool' BCNMs? Well... now you can get 119 weapons and gear without Delve too!")
The more people capable of having competent gear... the better the game will be.

[Karah]

It's never taken more than 2 runs to obtain any item from limbus. no argument would ever change the fact that you're extremely lucky it wasn't forced.

[Ravenmore]

Forcing people to sink millions of manhours to get a random drop is a waste of life....
And a tell-tale sign of being an archagent of the Devil.

Letting people do a bit "more" grinding to bypass the potential at years of more grinding...
Was genius. (But not really because it's no different between the implementation of the +2 for Relic gear.)
This lets more people get better/relevant gear.
Which allows for more people to do harder/relevant content.

This is a MMO.
Playing with other people.... is kinda the point.
And allowing for more people to play at the same tier together... is always good.
(remember when skirmish gear was added? 113!? that's "better" than the delve gear! ... only it isn't. It's the same tier of gear as a r15 piece... and depending on the piece, one will be better for your job than another. But what was really so beautiful about the skirmish gear was that it gave more people access to "delve" level gear... which allowed for more people to do Delve... The AA redux is the same. "don't like delve? Like 'oldschool' BCNMs? Well... now you can get 119 weapons and gear without Delve too!")
The more people capable of having competent gear... the better the game will be.

To start with they are giving half of the set away though login points and the other half is extremely easy to get from a couple of runs. Really the AF items are so piss easy to get when you don't have to worry about the win and can skip time chest going for item chest while able to do it every day. People were begging SE for time sinks and things to do solo, so I'm kinda shoick SE didn't force you to have +1 already as well but that wouldn't be in line with how they handled relic +2. With the random drop thing people here on these forums seem to be really happy with it with how much they bring up the good old days of 1 to 5% drop rates of the 75 cap era.

[Damane]

There is a TON of stuff to do in this game. I want to explore it at my own pace, not be forced to do it for such a silly reason. I planned to do CoP at some point, but now I have to do it in order to get my armor.



I don't really care about the past, I'm talking about the right now.

I did CoP missions in like 1-2 days for my mule ¬.¬, like seriously its not THAT big of an investment, especially now with enhanced movement speed.

[Xantavia]

There is a TON of stuff to do in this game. I want to explore it at my own pace, not be forced to do it for such a silly reason. I planned to do CoP at some point, but now I have to do it in order to get my armor.
The biggest problem is that if you upgrade to the top gear before doing the 2nd expansion released, you are removing all challenge from the journey. I was about halfway through the expansion when they removed level caps from the zones and changed the max level to 80. I found the early parts much more memorable and exciting when the wins weren't practically guaranteed. Once the challenge was gone, it felt much more like a checklist of "go here, go there, stomp this mob". But that is just me.

[bungiefanNA]

There is a TON of stuff to do in this game. I want to explore it at my own pace, not be forced to do it for such a silly reason. I planned to do CoP at some point, but now I have to do it in order to get my armor.

Different expansions have different rewards. AF+1 was one reward for progress in CoP. If you want that reward, or an upgrade of it, you need to have that completion. Availability of the materials from an event generally doesn't change the behaviour of PCs that unlock new options when your progress is that far.

You are forced to progress similarly if you want final boss defeat rewards like Rajas Ring or Suppanomimi. If you want the reward, do the activity the reward is tied to. You don't HAVE to have AF+2 right now.

[Llama]

You don't have to beat Cop. Just need to have Sea access, just did it like 3 weeks ago. Took me about 3 days.

[FaeQueenCory]

It's never taken more than 2 runs to obtain any item from limbus. no argument would ever change the fact that you're extremely lucky it wasn't forced.
Except that that's a horribly selfish sentiment.
"It only took me one run to get the items I needed, so everyone else better do it in one run or F them."
Some people go 1/1, others go 0/600.
Random drops are bad.
Especially when there's no control over the random drop. (ex of good random: base mythic weapons, any job random, but F100 will drop lead's job weapon every time.)


To start with they are giving half of the set away though login points and the other half is extremely easy to get from a couple of runs. Really the AF items are so piss easy to get when you don't have to worry about the win and can skip time chest going for item chest while able to do it every day. People were begging SE for time sinks and things to do solo, so I'm kinda shoick SE didn't force you to have +1 already as well but that wouldn't be in line with how they handled relic +2. With the random drop thing people here on these forums seem to be really happy with it with how much they bring up the good old days of 1 to 5% drop rates of the 75 cap era.
0_0
People sure do like beating that strawman.
It's a fine paste now.
If not a mist.


Since it seems that neither of you understood my point... which the Devs seem to... because that's why it was done.
And I'm gonna bold it just to make it all noticeable.
Giving more people the capability to get the same tier items in multiple ways allows for more people to play together, and seeing as how this is an MMO, that's kinda the main point to the game being played.

It's not about a time sink. (even though some people delude themselves into thinking that's what people want... though I'm sure ONE person out there surely does...)
It's not about being elitist. (even though that's kinda the stance you make when you drop statements like "I did it in 2m in X way, you should play this MMO EXACTLY like I do"...)
It's about equality and giving more people the ability to be equivalent to each other.


(and Login campaigns are a horrible example of "equal opportunity".... They aren't permanent. They won't be here forever. They don't always offer the same items. Am I right, Zeid?
What about the new player tomorrow? or the one 3mo from now? Or any of the many bajillions of legitimate reasons people might not be able to do the login campaigns?
Basically: stop being selfish. Check yo privilege, not everyone has your resources.)

[Olor]

Besides giving Rajas Ring at the end, which everyone should get, it is also a requirement that you have to complete it to Reforge your gear.

Oh god... that's terrible. One more funblock.


You really have to have beaten CoP to reforge the AF gear?

Why is such a random requirement in place? "Go do this really old content, all of it, in order to prepare yourself for current content, even if you already have the items"

It's just so bogus for players like myself. I was so happy I managed to get the pages and stuff together for the reforged AF in preparation for when I hit 99, and again it looks like I'm nowhere close because I have to go back to do tons of old missions in order to be able to get current content gear.

It just never ends. SE makes it so stupidly difficult to start this game as a new player. There's SO many things you have to go back and do, even at a high level, just to be able to play the game.

I'm just sitting here, just thinking about all of what I'm gonna have to go through. It just makes me not even want to play... I've already done SO MUCH, and every time I think I'm ready to actually level to 99 and enjoy myself, there's something more, some other chore I have to go complete first.

Just... sigh...

THIS. Seriously SE - WHY? I've been back more than two years and I am not even halfway done COP because (guess what!?!) I like playing with other players, not solo questing ancient content.

[Kensagaku]

@FaeQueenCory
While I agree that yes, this is an MMO, and it is centered around people playing together, being able to just be elevated to the end devalues the experience for those who had to put the hard work into getting there. Why did they strive if everyone was going to be on the same level with no effort? What is the point of achieving something if anyone can achieve it by whining that they're not as good as others? Why bother when you can just sit back and complain until you get the same tools that you would have gotten only a little bit earlier by working hard?

My point is that work effort should equal reward reward. Right now, things like the login campaign and the other "easy mode" tools are an example of do nothing for a reward. And this is from the guy who came in at the end of the ToAU era; I didn't even have it nearly as bad as those who came before, and I still think this is ridiculous. So people have to do a little bit of mission work, whoop de doo? If they don't like doing it solo, they can look for other people on the server who haven't done it yet. There are at least a handful of people, judging by the few that have spoken here, who haven't done these missions and are looking to do them. Maybe there's more. Post on server forums here or in the ffxiah.com forums, and they might even find people to do these with. I know the pain of doing missions solo, as I did a large majority of Wings of the Goddess solo. It was fun for its own reasons, but I did experience the blah of running it solo, mostly because I didn't bother to try and get people to help. I didn't feel like waiting. The only reason this game turns into a non-MMO is when people don't try to band together and work together. They're only doing so to get to the next shiny thing in many cases, especially if they can skip steps.

@The OP
Look, I respect that it's annoying that you have to get Sea access. It is quite boring compared to the old times, where you did CoP with the caps. There's just no fun or accomplishment in stomping a 40-cap mission at level 99, because you can just sneeze in the general direction and win, so I understand the annoyance. I finished mine just before the caps were raised, and it was memorable because of the time spent organizing groups and the work I put into beating these big bosses with a good combination of jobs. Freakin' Ouryu, despite being easy to others, was a pain because of my party setup of two blms, a blu, a whm, and some misc dds because that was all we had. It was... a train wreck for the first run. XD;

But while I do understand what a pain it is to go back and do these missions, it is the same thing I mentioned in the above section; to get something, you have to work for it. It's not just handed to you. If you want to get your AF+1 and AF109/119, you have to complete Chains of Promathia at least up to unlocking Limbus. I know it can be a pain, but the work is a requirement that everyone has had to meet to get to this point, and because you don't want to do it doesn't mean that you should take the work they put into it and throw it aside because you don't want to do a little bit of extra work. To put it simply, get through the work. Yes, it's a time sink, but isn't that what MMOs are anyway? Games to pass the time? Granted, it's easier with other people and more fun that way, but judging by a few of the posts here on the forum, there are a few people who have yet to finish them as well. Look around for people who haven't done them either, and make it an experience together. For fun, you can try and do some of them level capped, just to see how crazy it was back in the day. Or you can rush through them together, exploring the world together and enjoying the unfolding storyline. As many of the others have said, Chains of Promathia was one of the best storylines in the game, and by not going through it, I feel you're missing out on a pretty epic bit of in-game story.

In short, take the time to do the work. Make the reward worth it, and not just another shiny bauble you received because you bludgeoned a monster's head in with a staff for a few hours.

[Mefuki]

This is a MMO.
Playing with other people.... is kinda the point.

This is kind of off-topic but I've been seeing this kind of comment more and more and I just wanted to say: Not everyone that starts playing FFXI does it because it's multiplayer. Personally, I started playing because I liked the battle system, the wealth of gear and character customization options and the fact that it was a huge game with a fleshed out world that would be updated regularly. Sure, me and my friends started playing together at the same time but it never was the main reason why I started playing or why I continue to play.

And now, the fact that SE's mindset is currently low man party-centric and are so concerned about accessibility of content means I get to play more or stop and start playing all day, all at my convenience. AND I get to do it when I log in; not 2+ hours from then because everything requires an alliance or static to do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not AGAINST playing and partying with people, I just think it's really nice that I'm able to have the option to play by myself and if someone wants to join me, they can too. Think Diablo III or Borderlands 2, as much as dislike the utter worthlessness of gear, the gear treadmill as a whole and lack of options in those games, I really like that you can play single player but it's also mulitplayer when your friends or whoever wants to join in.

[Mordain]

@FaeQueenCory
@The OP
Look, I respect that it's annoying that you have to get Sea access. It is quite boring compared to the old times, where you did CoP with the caps. There's just no fun or accomplishment in stomping a 40-cap mission at level 99, because you can just sneeze in the general direction and win, so I understand the annoyance.

Whoa there! I wasn't the one complaining about getting Sea access! I actually don't mind. I love the CoP story, and this gives me the extra push to finish it off. I guess I can understand the people who are annoyed, but for me the only annoyance was that I wouldn't have figured out why I couldn't reforge my AF without consulting on the forums (i.e., they could have put a disclaimer on the quest or something).

[Ravenmore]

Except that that's a horribly selfish sentiment.
"It only took me one run to get the items I needed, so everyone else better do it in one run or F them."
Some people go 1/1, others go 0/600.
Random drops are bad.
Especially when there's no control over the random drop. (ex of good random: base mythic weapons, any job random, but F100 will drop lead's job weapon every time.)


0_0
People sure do like beating that strawman.
It's a fine paste now.
If not a mist.


Since it seems that neither of you understood my point... which the Devs seem to... because that's why it was done.
And I'm gonna bold it just to make it all noticeable.
Giving more people the capability to get the same tier items in multiple ways allows for more people to play together, and seeing as how this is an MMO, that's kinda the main point to the game being played.

It's not about a time sink. (even though some people delude themselves into thinking that's what people want... though I'm sure ONE person out there surely does...)
It's not about being elitist. (even though that's kinda the stance you make when you drop statements like "I did it in 2m in X way, you should play this MMO EXACTLY like I do"...)
It's about equality and giving more people the ability to be equivalent to each other.


(and Login campaigns are a horrible example of "equal opportunity".... They aren't permanent. They won't be here forever. They don't always offer the same items. Am I right, Zeid?
What about the new player tomorrow? or the one 3mo from now? Or any of the many bajillions of legitimate reasons people might not be able to do the login campaigns?
Basically: stop being selfish. Check yo privilege, not everyone has your resources.)


Really CoP is so freaking easy now a whm/dcn melee could do all the fights and have time to spare in them. So far the only fight that is out of reach for not having the old missions done is the AA fights. ZM is even easier then CoP back at 75 a party of 4 could run though all the missions in 2 days if they pushed it. None of the old content is hard to do solo. Really Airship was made to be fought at 60 cap, now you can go in at 99 with a bunch of easy to get ilvl gear with tons of stats and eva/meva and curb stomp it. Limbus another easy solo and again can do it once a day and tons of wikis out there to tell you exactly which boxes give items or TEs.
But SE did give the option of skipping that step for the cost of more pages, and nothing is stopping you from doing the fights that the pages come from.

And I'm not saying do it the way I did it it, I did all of CoP before the nerfs and know what I would rather had been able to solo the whole deal then deal with all the crap I had to just to keep a group. Also I'm pretty sure you do not have to finish all of CoP to have your af reforged just able to enter limbus so the NPC will talk to you. Really right now content is the fairest it has ever been in FFXI history, I like how it is now and not the BS 1% drop rates but if you look around people are saying left and right how much better the good old 75 days were when seeing how high you could chain little pink birds passed for content.

[Vinedrai]

I can't believe some people here are crying about story related content being a road block on their way to shinies. This is a story driven game, what do you expect? Maybe you should just go play tetris or something, this isn't an arcade game for god's sake. @Crevox, they even handed you limbus items you needed for free (and pages for sparks, though idk if you got them that way), what else do you want? Next thing you will say SE should have added sea access to login rewards.

If anything, people with that mind set should instead be happy that you don't have to endure level caps, slow movement speed, much fewer transportation options and waiting forever to get a party together or the pain to set up a static. But you know what? Despite all that, it was so satisfying to overcome the challenge of CoP, the achievement you felt was amazing after all the sadistic limitations and requirements SE threw at you. It is too bad that newer players won't ever get to experience the same sense of achievement.

SE has already given you up-to date gear options for little to no effort (RoE and skirmish says hello). Don't worry, people won't be pointing fingers at you for not having item level AF while you are running around and beating some battlefields without breaking a sweat and it will only take you a few days... /sigh

[Kensagaku]

Whoa there! I wasn't the one complaining about getting Sea access! I actually don't mind. I love the CoP story, and this gives me the extra push to finish it off. I guess I can understand the people who are annoyed, but for me the only annoyance was that I wouldn't have figured out why I couldn't reforge my AF without consulting on the forums (i.e., they could have put a disclaimer on the quest or something).

My apologies, then! I totally misinterpreted the point of this thread. Then yes, I do agree that it would help if they gave some idea of what is required for these steps, rather than leaving people to guess. There is a train of logic that AF upgrades (+1) comes from unlocking sea access, so further upgrades (109/119) also requires it, but at the same time it would be nicer to have them specify these things a bit more.

[Crevox]

I can't believe some people here are crying about story related content being a road block on their way to shinies. This is a story driven game, what do you expect? Maybe you should just go play tetris or something, this isn't an arcade game for god's sake. @Crevox, they even handed you limbus items you needed for free (and pages for sparks, though idk if you got them that way), what else do you want? Next thing you will say SE should have added sea access to login rewards.

Time. Consuming. None of this is a challenge. I am not "earning" anything. I am running from place to place doing fetch quests. Like I said, I wanted to see the story, and I planned to do it at some point, but I am required to do it now for gear irrelevant to the level of the content. The story is fantastic, but it comes in bits and pieces between the monotony.

The greater majority of my game time has now been running from point A from point B to talk to NPC or beat up too weak to be worth while.

I understand it USED TO BE challenging, but it isn't now. Why are we stuck doing this still? If it's simply for the story, it shouldn't be required for level 99 content. This stuff takes a LOT of time. I could read the entire story script online in less than an hour, but doing this in game takes days. Yes, it is much more enjoyable in game and all that (and honestly, even then I could just watch it all on youtube), but the fact that this is being made a requirement for new content they're pushing out in patches just sucks. I am bearing through going through 4-5 different entire storylines for simple unlock flags that could be flipped on by SE an easier way, but I can't say if my friends will be wanting to do it all too. What's worse is some of it even blocks you from continuing until an earth day has passed (I just started Aht Urhgan, can't continue, gotta wait).

It's no wonder new people don't start playing this game. Not only is all of this extremely time consuming (and often complicated, requiring a guide), but anyone in game and on the forums just says "you guys have it so lucky, it was so hard back in the day, it took so long, quit whining." So friendly, so understanding. I really could care less about back in the day. Stop talking about it, the past is irrelevant to the present.

And for those of you who say it isn't required: it really is. First of all, I can't do any of the AA fights without doing Zilart, apparently. Important gear (sachet) comes from there, and it's the latest content everyone is shouting about, with tons of other things from it too. I can't get my AF+1 without doing CoP, which is very good gear, and for a SMN (me), job specific gear is often critically useful. There's also Alexander and Odin, whom I can't get unless I do Aht Urhgan, and I've already been refused from multiple parties and Linkshells because I do not have Alexander. Lastly, I can't go to Dynamis until I finish the nation missions (just up to rank 6 I think?) and many other things in the game also require rank. There's even more stuff past that, but I can't be bothered to think of it right now (and the more I play, the more things come up).

It's like a gigantic list labeled "Before you can start playing and enjoying the game, first complete this gigantic checklist of fetchquests:"

[Twille]

Time. Consuming. None of this is a challenge. I am not "earning" anything. I am running from place to place doing fetch quests. Like I said, I wanted to see the story, and I planned to do it at some point, but I am required to do it now for gear irrelevant to the level of the content. The story is fantastic, but it comes in bits and pieces between the monotony.

The greater majority of my game time has now been running from point A from point B to talk to NPC or beat up too weak to be worth while.

I understand it USED TO BE challenging, but it isn't now. Why are we stuck doing this still? If it's simply for the story, it shouldn't be required for level 99 content. This stuff takes a LOT of time. I could read the entire story script online in less than an hour, but doing this in game takes days. Yes, it is much more enjoyable in game and all that (and honestly, even then I could just watch it all on youtube), but the fact that this is being made a requirement for new content they're pushing out in patches just sucks. I am bearing through going through 4-5 different entire storylines for simple unlock flags that could be flipped on by SE an easier way, but I can't say if my friends will be wanting to do it all too. What's worse is some of it even blocks you from continuing until an earth day has passed (I just started Aht Urhgan, can't continue, gotta wait).

It's no wonder new people don't start playing this game. Not only is all of this extremely time consuming (and often complicated, requiring a guide), but anyone in game and on the forums just says "you guys have it so lucky, it was so hard back in the day, it took so long, quit whining." So friendly, so understanding. I really could care less about back in the day. Stop talking about it, the past is irrelevant to the present.

And for those of you who say it isn't required: it really is. First of all, I can't do any of the AA fights without doing Zilart, apparently. Important gear (sachet) comes from there, and it's the latest content everyone is shouting about, with tons of other things from it too. I can't get my AF+1 without doing CoP, which is very good gear, and for a SMN (me), job specific gear is often critically useful. There's also Alexander and Odin, whom I can't get unless I do Aht Urhgan, and I've already been refused from multiple parties and Linkshells because I do not have Alexander. Lastly, I can't go to Dynamis until I finish the nation missions (just up to rank 6 I think?) and many other things in the game also require rank. There's even more stuff past that, but I can't be bothered to think of it right now (and the more I play, the more things come up).

It's like a gigantic list labeled "Before you can start playing and enjoying the game, first complete this gigantic checklist of fetchquests:"

So you want to skip past all the actual content of the game and just have the rewards given to you?
Sorry, but this is an MMO, the ultimate time-sink.

[Vinedrai]

Sorry but all I am seeing in your posts is "I want to skip everything so i can get a reward". You are not really making any sense by saying "I can watch all the cutscenes on youtube". You can find full playthroughs and/or video compilations of so many games on youtube. In that sense, nobody should ever play any game you can find on youtube because all the cutscenes and gameplay are already there, so why should we even play it ourselves, right?

I mean, you must be joking (or should I say trolling), because this is too absurd to be true...

[Demonjustin]

In all honesty, why need they be connected though? I can think of no reason that CoP in any way should actually be a requirement, I know that it is and I know its important to do, I fully agree, but if someone wants to complete this content without doing the majority of CoP first, why should we be against that? To me, it seems like a random and pointless requirement in my opinion, just like the VW requirement for unlocking Empyrean WSs was a random needless requirement they just threw at us out of no where.

[Vinedrai]

There has to be requirements for something new added to the game. To progress in Abyssea, you had to have zone boss wins then caturae wins, to progress in VW, you had to kill NMs on your current tier once to get to next tier etc etc. Also, it may sound unrelated to some people (especially newer players) but AF upgrading was always related to CoP.

They could have made it so that you can upgrade your AF with 10 papers without doing any CoP but then they would definitely set a different requirement and don't forget that there is also the option to upgrade them with 5 papers if you already have the hq and you need limbus access to have them so there is still a connection beyond "suck it up and get sea access regardless".

The story justification is that the new NPC is a collegue of the original AF upgrade NPC. It makes sense that the new NPC would only serve you after the original NPC is available to you. The process is technically new and they should be following the timeline. I don't know what else to say if people don't care about stories and chronology. And btw, (this isn't directed at you) asking why ZM progress to fight AA is required is even more pointless because you are not supposed to see them at all before reaching that point in the story.

[detlef]

Complaining about unlockable content that requires missions to access seems to fly in the face of what this game is.

I can't believe you're complaining about having to do Zilart missions to access Ark Angel fights. I can't believe you're complaining that you need to progress in CoP to access Limbus areas and rewards. I can't believe you're complaining about needing Rank 6 in your home nation to do Dynamis. Did you complain about having to do coalitions assignments and Adoulin missions in order to access Wildskeeper Reives too?

How low of a bar do you want?

[Vinedrai]

Complaining about unlockable content that requires missions to access seems to fly in the face of what this game is.

I can't believe you're complaining about having to do Zilart missions to access Ark Angel fights. I can't believe you're complaining that you need to progress in CoP to access Limbus areas and rewards. I can't believe you're complaining about needing Rank 6 in your home nation to do Dynamis. Did you complain about having to do coalitions assignments and Adoulin missions in order to access Wildskeeper Reives too?

How low of a bar do you want?

I didn't see that dynamis comment before wow, that is quite extreme... Maybe they should add an NPC who can cap your level and skills for free as well, because you know, we already know how it is to level up (see his youtube videos comment) so why do we have to do it ourselves? /sigh

[Vasch]

This is a Final Fantasy game, meant to be savored and taken in slowly like a fine piece of tiramisu. It's not designed to be a bag of chips that's gobbled up and done in 5 minutes like a game of Angry Birds. If you want a bag of doritos, look elsewhere.

[Demonjustin]

I can't believe you're complaining that you need to progress in CoP to access Limbus areas and rewards.I missed the part where there was a complaint about not being able to get CoP/Limbus rewards. Last I knew, the Reforged gear had 0 relation to Limbus except for their arbitrary requirement for having Sea access even though every item can be obtained through either quests or the AH, none of which exclusively comes from anything CoP related. Also, many Dynamis armors can be obtained without Dynamis access via the slips now days so to say the rewards should only come from the content isn't quite accurate either, though I am sure the argument will be made that those are old obsolete pieces now days, which is true, but not the point.

[detlef]

I missed the part where there was a complaint about not being able to get CoP/Limbus rewards. Last I knew, the Reforged gear had 0 relation to Limbus except for their arbitrary requirement for having Sea access even though every item can be obtained through either quests or the AH, none of which exclusively comes from anything CoP related. Also, many Dynamis armors can be obtained without Dynamis access via the slips now days so to say the rewards should only come from the content isn't quite accurate either, though I am sure the argument will be made that those are old obsolete pieces now days, which is true, but not the point.It's a fair point that you don't need to step foot into Limbus to acquire any of the items necessary to upgrade AF to 119. However, it's no different from when SE required players to have the VW progress in order to redeem pulse items (I believe the vast majority of players felt that this was a fair requirement).

Basically, SE wants players to obtain the items in a way that doesn't bypass CoP. I believe that it's fair for them to expect this of us.

[Demonjustin]

There has to be requirements for something new added to the game. To progress in Abyssea, you had to have zone boss wins then caturae wins, to progress in VW, you had to kill NMs on your current tier once to get to next tier etc etc. Also, it may sound unrelated to some people (especially newer players) but AF upgrading was always related to CoP.Cats were directly linked to the Abyssea story, the VWNMs were directly linked to the Voidwatch story, Reforged gear from what I have seen has no connection to Sea or Limbus at all. You can say Limbus always had a part in upgrading AF gear, and while that may be true we can skip that, the lines need never be drawn, there is no point to it other than a way to block players from doing the upgrades without it.


They could have made it so that you can upgrade your AF with 10 papers without doing any CoP but then they would definitely set a different requirement and don't forget that there is also the option to upgrade them with 5 papers if you already have the hq and you need limbus access to have them so there is still a connection beyond "suck it up and get sea access regardless".The only connection there is, is the one they forced for no reason. We can do everything except turn it in without Sea access, which is why it is stupid we have to have it in order to turn it in, the NPC is basically looking at the gear and the materials, saying they can do it, and then saying 'Oh, you don't have access to that one area? Well, sucks to be you, I'm not doing anything until you can go there. Why? Psh, because I said so, and my friend over there is tied to that area too so I won't help you till then, ha ha.'


The story justification is that the new NPC is a collegue of the original AF upgrade NPC. It makes sense that the new NPC would only serve you after the original NPC is available to you. The process is technically new and they should be following the timeline. I don't know what else to say if people don't care about stories and chronology.See, the original NPC makes sense, she will not talk to you till you can present her the items needed to upgrade armor, till you can actually obtain them she ignores you because you can't do what she wants anyways, why bother with you? New NPC on the other hand, not so much. I suppose for some reason only the original NPC has the social skills to actually do business with Adventurers or at least offer it to them, and after she talks to them, the other person can finally open their mouth to get out some words that resemble something besides 'screw off' as a reply to us?

I don't know, you're all jumping on someone complaining about something thats stupid in the game, and looking stupid as a result. CoP should be done by everyone, yes, Dynamis makes sense, yes, Ark Angels make sense, yes, this Reforged stuff, doesn't make sense, not to me at least.

[Demonjustin]

It's a fair point that you don't need to step foot into Limbus to acquire any of the items necessary to upgrade AF to 119. However, it's no different from when SE required players to have the VW progress in order to redeem pulse items (I believe the vast majority of players felt that this was a fair requirement).I believe this comparison is unfair, Pulse Cells come from VW, thus, to use them you had to have VW progress. Now, if there were Pulse Cells for Sagasinger or the Meeble/Legion weapons, items that are completely unrelated to VW in any way, yet at the same time you required VW access all the same to use the Cells, I would think the comparison more fair. As it stands, VW and RF are not the same on the basis that Cells are from VW only, whereas everything required for RF/+1 can be obtained outside of Sea with or without buying anything from the AH at all.

[detlef]

I believe this comparison is unfair, Pulse Cells come from VW, thus, to use them you had to have VW progress. Now, if there were Pulse Cells for Sagasinger or the Meeble/Legion weapons, items that are completely unrelated to VW in any way, yet at the same time you required VW access all the same to use the Cells, I would think the comparison more fair. As it stands, VW and RF are not the same on the basis that Cells are from VW only, whereas everything required for RF/+1 can be obtained outside of Sea with or without buying anything from the AH at all.Either way, you can obtain all the items you need any way you want, but you still need some sort of progress in something to turn them in. Are we going to also argue that it's unfair because the ilvl 119 pieces require synthesis materials from AA fights that require Zilart missions to access?

[Demonjustin]

In all honesty, I would argue that yes, a Sky requirement would make more sense than a Sea requirement for the second upgrade if any requirement need be set.

[Crevox]

I want to fight monsters in a party and be rewarded for a fun, challenging fight. That's how leveling is, that's how end game is, that's how you get loot, and while that's how the story used to be, it's not now.

I am not being "rewarded" for completing the story; it's just a chore. I am not accomplishing any major feat for completing it. It's just painful, and everyone has to do it. There's nothing fun about auto running for hours on end. The only satisfaction you get is the cutscenes in between, which are short before telling you to go somewhere else.


I can't believe you're complaining about having to do Zilart missions to access Ark Angel fights. I can't believe you're complaining that you need to progress in CoP to access Limbus areas and rewards. I can't believe you're complaining about needing Rank 6 in your home nation to do Dynamis. Did you complain about having to do coalitions assignments and Adoulin missions in order to access Wildskeeper Reives too?

How low of a bar do you want?

Why is this an issue? Why do I have to complete such long, monotonous tasks to unlock these things? Why is this a requirement? It's not even like I'm doing CoP for the item, I'm doing it to unlock the ability to EARN the item. I have to do CoP just to be able to give the items I already worked hard to obtain.

[detlef]

I guess what I can't wrap my head around is complaining about having to do content in order to access area, battlefields, NMs, and equipment. Progressing through the game to unlock new things is so basic that I can't see how you want to skip it. I mean, isn't the very essence of an RPG?

[Crevox]

I guess what I can't wrap my head around is complaining about having to do content in order to access area, battlefields, NMs, and equipment. Progressing through the game to unlock new things is so basic that I can't see how you want to skip it. I mean, isn't the very essence of an RPG?

It may be an RPG, but there's a point when things are just long and drawn out for no reason. It made sense back in the day, it was the content, it was fun/challenging/gripping/whatever. You actually earned items and stuff for completing it too that were good. Nowadays, there's like 1-2 good items (Raja Ring) and the rest of it is just doing it so the game knows you've done it (for whatever other reason).

[detlef]

It may be an RPG, but there's a point when things are just long and drawn out for no reason. It made sense back in the day, it was the content, it was fun/challenging/gripping/whatever. You actually earned items and stuff for completing it too that were good. Nowadays, there's like 1-2 good items (Raja Ring) and the rest of it is just doing it so the game knows you've done it (for whatever other reason).It just sounds like you want some of the best gear in the game just from doing Records of Eminence.

[Twille]

In all honesty, why need they be connected though? I can think of no reason that CoP in any way should actually be a requirement

The "reforged AF" is actually more like a +2 and +3 of the original AF. To +1 your AF, you needed Sea Access. Since "reforged AF" is just an extension of the upgrade process, you need to have all previous requirements met.

I don't see what the big deal is. If you have the capacity to obtain the items for your reforged AF, you also have the ability to complete all of CoP.

[Trumpy]

Odd that you can upgrade relic to +1 without sea (i did on my mule), but have to have limbus access to upgrade these new artifacts (though i completely understand). I can contest that my linkshell that did limbus every possible time we could (back before it was changed to daily content) went many many runs without seein one monk af item drop and there was quite alot of us needing them. Ive recently started doin it now that my mule has access, have only done 2 runs and i got 2 sam 2 brd one run and 1 sam the next run (none of which was needed and seriously any event that first required 6-18 people and gave one af item at the end is effin stupid). seriously you have to be full of crap to say u can get anything u need in one run lol. having said that, though most wiki pages say any af item can drop, but are there definite runs that tend to drop one jobs over another?

[Demonjustin]

The "reforged AF" is actually more like a +2 and +3 of the original AF. To +1 your AF, you needed Sea Access. Since "reforged AF" is just an extension of the upgrade process, you need to have all previous requirements met.To +1 Relic you needed Sea access because otherwise the same NPC refused to talk to you, that being said, Trials of the Magian were perfectly open and ready for anyone at all to come in and +2 their gear, I mean you don't even have to have Dynamis access let alone Sea access in order to +2 it, it was just fewer Forgottens if you had Sea access and +1'd the Relic gear first. Both pieces required Sea to get +1, both allow you to skip +1 at the same time of requiring a higher cost, both require items outside of Sea to get to +2/Reforged, the only difference between AF & Relic is the fact Relic did not require Sea access, or items half as difficult to obtain, while giving you a lower level piece of gear. You said it yourself, if you can obtain the items to Reforge your AF, you can complete all of CoP, which means you are able to and just haven't, so allowing players to obtain that higher level piece of gear shouldn't be an issue either way.

[Direct]

Crevox you horrible little man, you really need a good hiding mate a good beating to knock some sense into you.

[Crevox]

It just sounds like you want some of the best gear in the game just from doing Records of Eminence.

I never said anything like that. You really think doing mindless hours of fetch quests is worth anything? What's worth something is difficult battles with strong opponents, and that's what I WANT to be doing, but I can't, because I have to get these fetch quests out of the way first.


Crevox you horrible little man, you really need a good hiding mate a good beating to knock some sense into you.

I don't even know what this is supposed to say.

[detlef]

Nobody says I want everything for free. I already earned my AF items to trade in, but I can't. I WANT to do AA fights, but again, I can't, because I haven't finished Zilart. I want to do a LOT of things, but I can't because I have not finished all of these stupid fetch quests. I can't even get a party because I don't have Alexander.But being able to redeem the items is something that has to be earned. What's wrong with that?

[Direct]

I know cops not hard all, se nerfed it down so people colo solo duo it. Se right now are going around and adding new versions to the older fights the recent aa fights for example, i'm sure that they will get around to cop soon, so it's really not a waste of your time to get it done anyway.

Lets look at it logically you have to do zilart missions you can do these in one day if you put enough hours in, i've just done them all again for a couple of mules, cop took me a few days again for mules and toah has a few more jp midnight cs so it will take a few days longer. There is no reason why you can't have all 3 expansions done in 2 weeks.

Try shouting to see if anyone else needs them, try making yourself a friend or two along the way at least that way you can have a little fun doing these missions.

[detlef]

He's not saying it's hard, he's saying it's a hassle and he doesn't want to do it.

[Crevox]

But being able to redeem the items is something that has to be earned. What's wrong with that?

Why is level 99 items and content tied to level 40-70 fetch quests and battles?

I may know the reason (because it's the sea NPC or whatever) but either way, it doesn't have to be.


it's a hassle and he doesn't want to do it.

The amount of time it takes is ridiculous. Like I said, I may be able to tolerate it, but I really don't think my friends will. No one should even have to.

[detlef]

Why is level 99 items and content tied to level 40-70 fetch quests and battles?The best weapons in the game still require tons of level 75 content legwork. It's not specific to ilvl 119 AF.

Oh and also if your friends aren't willing to do old content they may find themselves running out of things to do really quickly.

[Xantavia]

Nobody says I want everything for free. I already earned my AF items to trade in, but I can't. I WANT to do AA fights, but again, I can't, because I haven't finished Zilart. I want to do a LOT of things, but I can't because I have not finished all of these stupid fetch quests. I can't even get a party because I don't have Alexander.]I want to fight monsters in a party and be rewarded for a fun, challenging fight. That's how leveling is, that's how end game is, that's how you get loot, and while that's how the story used to be, it's not now.[/QUOTE]
You realize that if you go through these missions now, before you hit 99, before you deck yourself out in ilvl gear, it can be a fun, challenging fight. Just because the promyvian fights are uncapped, doesn't mean you can't still get a group of people around level 30 to do the fight. Go through the aquaducts at level 40 where there is a huge chance of dying solo if you catch aggro from incredibly tough mobs. On one hand, you say you want a challenge. But on the other, you want to deck yourself out in gear that makes all but newest content trivial in difficulty.

Nobody says I want everything for free. I already earned my AF items to trade in, but I can't. I WANT to do AA fights, but again, I can't, because I haven't finished Zilart. I want to do a LOT of things, but I can't because I have not finished all of these stupid fetch quests. I can't even get a party because I don't have Alexander.]Nobody says I want everything for free. I already earned my AF items to trade in, but I can't. I WANT to do AA fights, but again, I can't, because I haven't finished Zilart. I want to do a LOT of things, but I can't because I have not finished all of these stupid fetch quests. I can't even get a party because I don't have Alexander.[/QUOTE]
If you do Zilart missions, you can fight the original version of the AA fights. CoP and Aht Urghan progression will get you Diablos, Odin, and Alexander (where they are tied to the story). You say you want to do a lot of things, but it sounds like you only want to do what is popular now. So you upgrade your AF, what then? What will be left for you to do? Go back and do stuff where you are twice the level of the intended enemies? If you stop and think, doing it that way does feel like it is such a chore. Go from A to B to C where there is no danger is just like marking off a checklist. But make it so where the outcome is in doubt and I think your outlook may change and you might feel like you are making some true character progression instead of thinking anything less than the top is a roadblock to enjoyment.

[Crevox]

The best weapons in the game still require tons of level 75 content legwork. It's not specific to ilvl 119 AF.

Relics, Mythics, and Empyrean weapons I can understand. However, I am upgrading my level 50-60 AF to level 99; not upgrading 75, 80, 85, etc.

They are also much more of an achievement, they should take a large amount of effort. I am perfectly fine with those.

However, this new AF upgrade... it's just so random to make it still require finishing CoP. They could've made any NPC do the conversion, but it had to be that one.

Even then, it's not like you're going and gathering tons of materials; you're just doing a gigantic quest line for a boolean status flag saying that you beat CoP. It's just... silly.

[Crevox]

You realize that if you go through these missions now, before you hit 99, before you deck yourself out in ilvl gear, it can be a fun, challenging fight. Just because the promyvian fights are uncapped, doesn't mean you can't still get a group of people around level 30 to do the fight. Go through the aquaducts at level 40 where there is a huge chance of dying solo if you catch aggro from incredibly tough mobs. On one hand, you say you want a challenge. But on the other, you want to deck yourself out in gear that makes all but newest content trivial in difficulty.

I am not going to gimp myself to make something that isn't a challenge, a challenge. I am doing it to get it out of the way so I can get to the difficult content; the things that are relevant in the player base, so I can play the MMORPG.

There is a ridiculous number of battles and content that are challenging at max level. When the time comes that I need to get items from those, I will have a party and we will take on the challenge. However, this is not one of them, and I will not make it one just to waste even MORE time doing old content for a flag saying I beat a story.

[Mordain]

Isn't it obvious by now we're just looking at a sliding scale of what to interpret as "meaningful tasks"? Crevox, you aren't going to convince the people you're arguing with because they don't agree with your point of view (that it is a waste of time). Incidentally, I suspect SE does not agree with you either. Perhaps they want players to experience the full depth of the story of the world they've created? I know if I'd written all this material I'd be frustrated that people just wanted to sidestep it.

But that's me, and that's what I would feel like. You are not me, and you don't agree. I'm fine that you don't agree, but - at least so far as forum-goers are concerned - you seem to be in the minority.

People play games for all kinds of reasons, and MMOs are special in that they appeal to many aspects of what we players enjoy in games. I don't like crafting. Some people don't care about story. Still others hate forced party mechanics. And for each of those, there are people on the other side who love that stuff. FFXI was always distinct from other MMOs - even when it came out - for having a very special focus on rich story content. There are many reasons to play FFXI, but that element was part of (and clearly remains part of) it's niche. It's hardly strange that the majority of players remaining in the game are OK with being forced to play through story, and are equally OK with forcing new players to see how awesome the story is.

For you, that makes most of us perhaps seem obnoxious. I won't apologize. You can go on arguing your point. I think we all get it. I just think you're going to keep frustrating yourself, but whatever floats your boat, as they say….

[Crevox]

I know if I'd written all this material I'd be frustrated that people just wanted to sidestep it.

What's done is done, and what's in the past is in the past.

Either way, I appreciate an actual, well thought-out post for once. While I may disagree with your idea of why people want me to do the story, you still make good points. Thank you for being understanding.


If you do Zilart missions, you can fight the original version of the AA fights. CoP and Aht Urghan progression will get you Diablos, Odin, and Alexander (where they are tied to the story). You say you want to do a lot of things, but it sounds like you only want to do what is popular now. So you upgrade your AF, what then? What will be left for you to do? Go back and do stuff where you are twice the level of the intended enemies? If you stop and think, doing it that way does feel like it is such a chore. Go from A to B to C where there is no danger is just like marking off a checklist. But make it so where the outcome is in doubt and I think your outlook may change and you might feel like you are making some true character progression instead of thinking anything less than the top is a roadblock to enjoyment.

I am working on CoP, Zilart, and Aht Urhgan, obviously. I have to unlock those things. I don't have a choice.

[Xantavia]

I am not going to gimp myself to make something that isn't a challenge, a challenge. I am doing it to get it out of the way so I can get to the difficult content; the things that are relevant in the player base, so I can play the MMORPG.
I guess I don't see how it is gimping yourself. CoP was designed to allow you to do the story as you leveled up. It gave you a guide to what was possible at level 30, 40, 50 based on level caps in the area. You aren't gimping yourself by doing it based on the original design. You are overleveling then complaining there isn't any challenge to the fight.

[Crevox]

I guess I don't see how it is gimping yourself. CoP was designed to allow you to do the story as you leveled up. It gave you a guide to what was possible at level 30, 40, 50 based on level caps in the area. You aren't gimping yourself by doing it based on the original design. You are overleveling then complaining there isn't any challenge to the fight.

The original design is long gone when all the balance has been changed. Items are different, abilities are different, and the difficulty of the content is changed. I am not interested in playing it for the sake of "I want to experience the challenge of how it was like back then", because that is impossible now (nor do I really care).

[detlef]

I guess I don't see how it is gimping yourself. CoP was designed to allow you to do the story as you leveled up. It gave you a guide to what was possible at level 30, 40, 50 based on level caps in the area. You aren't gimping yourself by doing it based on the original design. You are overleveling then complaining there isn't any challenge to the fight.People use the same argument against Abyssea, saying you could just not use Atma to create artificial challenge. It just doesn't fly. People will never gimp themselves that way. Instead, people choose to low man things for more drops per player and greater challenge. To a degree, I agree with Crevos in that if you increase player power to the point where a fight finally transitions from a challenging solo fight to a trivial one, things can become tedious. We have to remember that when we did CoP many moons ago, the legwork was the easy part and the fights were the hard part.

With that said, I still think that it's well within SE's right to make players complete the expansion (well most of it) to access ilvl 119 AF gear and I support that decision. Crevox, I do hope that you extract at least some enjoyment from the missions, even if you don't want to do them.

[Mefuki]

People use the same argument against Abyssea, saying you could just not use Atma to create artificial challenge. It just doesn't fly. People will never gimp themselves that way.

I agree with your final conclusion but I just want to say:

3 Heart Challenges in Zelda
Nuzlocke (with additional optional rules) in Pokemon
Level 1 Ozma Challenges in FFIX
Single Character Challenges in FFI
No Sphere Grid Initial Equipment No Customization Challenges in FFX
etc.

It happens all the time.

[bungiefanNA]

The old expansions were eased to be able to do them with smaller groups or solo because SE looked at the census data and saw that most of the player base had not completed the missions. Having gates like this tied to storyline makes more people complete the storyline. The changes they have been doing have been trying to get more people to complete such content in the game, by having a carrot at the end of it. They've had a lot of content since WotG, and not a lot of people completing it. That's been changing since Abyssea, Level Sync, and removal of level capped areas.

[Crevox]

The old expansions were eased to be able to do them with smaller groups or solo because SE looked at the census data and saw that most of the player base had not completed the missions. Having gates like this tied to storyline makes more people complete the storyline. The changes they have been doing have been trying to get more people to complete such content in the game, by having a carrot at the end of it. They've had a lot of content since WotG, and not a lot of people completing it. That's been changing since Abyssea, Level Sync, and removal of level capped areas.

They need to do more though even still. I went today to do more Aht Urhgan missions, and once again, I cannot continue because "wait until after Japanese midnight." This time gated content is so annoying.

After looking ahead the next few missions, it looks like it's going to happen again, twice. I imagine past that it will happen even more too....

[Xantavia]

They need to do more though even still. I went today to do more Aht Urhgan missions, and once again, I cannot continue because "wait until after Japanese midnight." This time gated content is so annoying.

After looking ahead the next few missions, it looks like it's going to happen again, twice. I imagine past that it will happen even more too....
I think time gates are something everybody will agree with you on. In game next day wait is almost a non-issue. Real life day wait is horrible. I think it came from breaks in the content as it was released but I can't say for sure.

[detlef]

I agree with your final conclusion but I just want to say:

3 Heart Challenges in Zelda
Nuzlocke (with additional optional rules) in Pokemon
Level 1 Ozma Challenges in FFIX
Single Character Challenges in FFI
No Sphere Grid Initial Equipment No Customization Challenges in FFX
etc.

It happens all the time.Those are single player games. You'd be hard-pressed to find people who would apply that kind of mindset to FFXI. Like I said, people who want to challenge themselves will typically choose to reduce the number of people they bring rather than artificially gimp themselves. That's why you saw people posting solos of Genbu, Faust, Rapido, etc. as opposed to bragging about beating Kirin while not wearing pants.

[Vinedrai]

Why do people keep saying this? Do you honestly think that doing CoP is difficult in any way? It's not. There is no "reward" in completing this, there is no sense of achievement, there is no accomplishment. It's a gigantic series of fetch quests, and it's a gigantic waste of time. The story is great, but like I said, experiencing it in game just makes it take forever.

Nobody says I want everything for free. I already earned my AF items to trade in, but I can't. I WANT to do AA fights, but again, I can't, because I haven't finished Zilart. I want to do a LOT of things, but I can't because I have not finished all of these stupid fetch quests. I can't even get a party because I don't have Alexander.

Stop acting like completing CoP is actually something that is difficult and is something I need to complete to "earn" things. It's not. I shouldn't have to do this.

And yes, obviously I am completing it, because I don't have a choice.

Do you think that if you start another MMO now, it will just let you get a high-end item without some sort of progress? What if they didn't add limbus items to the campaign? You are just complaining that you already have the items but can't upgrade your AF but you aren't supposed to have some of those items in the first place. Just by giving you limbus items for free, SE has even saved you many days of limbus farming. In fact, it could possibly take longer than finishing CoP XD


What the heck is wrong with this community? It's people like you that stop new people from playing this game.

New people should have the patience and enthusiasm to enjoy the core game. You just keep repeating the same complaints with different words and it almost feels like you are trolling (not saying I think so) and that is one of the reasons that stops old people from standing official forums so I guess we are 1-1? But seriously, no one here is telling you to stop playing, we are actually telling you to play. What you want to do is like skipping through a movie or a book because you feel it is boring and only watching the conclusion.

[Zeargi]

Trials of the Magian were perfectly open and ready for anyone at all to come in and +2 their gear, I mean you don't even have to have Dynamis

Incorrect, You can't obtain a relic anything without first doing Dynamis to obtain the base. You couldn't get the +1/+2 items for Emy. Without doing something in abyssea.

It's an Insult to the people that made this game the way some of the people in this post complain about playing the game. Regardless of how it is "Now", the prerequisites are to get access to something... People worked hard on that previous content, just that same as they did for the newer content... You want to fight the Ark Angels Hard Mode, then face them in the story first.... You want to summon Alexander, then fight him as a Boss... It's not a hard concept. You shouldn't gain something for nothing, even they're fetch quest and beat 'em ups, just do them... Travel is UNGODLY easy... Hell, you can warp to the Throne Room... You don't even have to walk to the Shadow Lord but once... You can warp to the Freakin' Ark Angels, you can warp to Nashmau, warp to Raboa, warp to the burning circles, warp to the past, warp to outpost, warp to just about anywhere...

[Demonjustin]

Incorrect, You can't obtain a relic anything without first doing Dynamis to obtain the base.This depends on the piece of gear, look at Login Campaigns, they have supplied us with the ability to get any piece of Xar or Beau piece of gear for some time now, and continue to do so, this is what I was refering to, my new character which is account is based on literally has not stepped foot in Dynamis, completed rank 3, or even hit level 50, yet on a whim I have access to the Relic Body & Head for RDM which are by far the most important pieces of that entire set, and in reality, the only two pieces that have not been replaced for the job as of yet. THF can do the same with the TH hands and other jobs have a similar situation but I care not to look into each piece, while I admit every piece can not be obtained without Dynamis, a few can.


It's an Insult to the people that made this game the way some of the people in this post complain about playing the game. Regardless of how it is "Now", the prerequisites are to get access to something... People worked hard on that previous content, just that same as they did for the newer content... You want to fight the Ark Angels Hard Mode, then face them in the story first.... You want to summon Alexander, then fight him as a Boss... It's not a hard concept. You shouldn't gain something for nothing, even they're fetch quest and beat 'em ups, just do them... Travel is UNGODLY easy... Hell, you can warp to the Throne Room... You don't even have to walk to the Shadow Lord but once... You can warp to the Freakin' Ark Angels, you can warp to Nashmau, warp to Raboa, warp to the burning circles, warp to the past, warp to outpost, warp to just about anywhere...This player base dwindles in time as all games do, which means we need more players to take their place. Now I am all for reasonable requirements, I personally have no problem whatsoever with Alex, Odin, Dynamis, Limbus, or any other piece of content in this game having its requirements to do it so long as its reasonable and makes sense. What I am talking about being stupid here, is the fact that you need Sea access, that it, access for an event completely unrelated to any item required for AF enhancements to RF, in order to upgrade your AF gear.


Do you think that if you start another MMO now, it will just let you get a high-end item without some sort of progress? What if they didn't add limbus items to the campaign? You are just complaining that you already have the items but can't upgrade your AF but you aren't supposed to have some of those items in the first place. Just by giving you limbus items for free, SE has even saved you many days of limbus farming. In fact, it could possibly take longer than finishing CoP XDSince when did RF upgrades have anything to do with Limbus? Show me 1 item that requires Limbus to obtain that is used in the process of upgrading a normal piece of AF into RF gear.


New people should have the patience and enthusiasm to enjoy the core game. You just keep repeating the same complaints with different words and it almost feels like you are trolling (not saying I think so) and that is one of the reasons that stops old people from standing official forums so I guess we are 1-1? But seriously, no one here is telling you to stop playing, we are actually telling you to play. What you want to do is like skipping through a movie or a book because you feel it is boring and only watching the conclusion.People play a game to have fun, everyone's sense of fun is different, if you find fun in going through hours upon hours or even days upon days of quests to get to basic gear that you had the items ready for, but lacked a simple quest being finished before the NPC would allow you to turn it in, then awesome, but most do not. I have quite a few friends I have tried to get into this game before that I know on Xbox and otherwise, I have had a 0% success rate with getting people into it due to the fact that every single one who got the game has played a month, told me its taking to long to get to a point of understanding what they are doing/need to do in the game to progress and the fact that everything is so drawn out to get to a decent point that they just can not bother to spend that much time starting a game.

Most games nowadays let you jump into the game and play it with others after a short period of time, this game, forces you to do old content that is easy by any stretch of the imagination and literally feels like a waste of time, its boring to most, and you have no choice but to do it in order to get to the point in the game where you can actually play with others, even then, things still suck because until you figure out how to gear and play in specific events you will be looked down upon and called gimp by everyone around you. The learning curve in this game sucks and the amount you need to do before you can even start to really play it and feel welcome in the game normally is absurd. They have helped to fix some of these things through systems such as Trust which help get people into the game faster, but if you truly think that people should be patient and enthused about playing a game and trying to get into it after the 10+ hours it takes to install and update on top of the days it will take you to get to a point of playing with others in a decent way, I think you're out of your mind.

I seriously can not for the life of me understand why such a simple improvement that makes sense is being so heavily opposed by people when the original complaint was about a requirement that doesn't even make sense!

[Crevox]

Do you think that if you start another MMO now, it will just let you get a high-end item without some sort of progress?

Actually, yes, most MMORPGs allow you to skip old content. When new expansions or tiers of content release, old content is made skippable and irrelevant, so you can play the new content without being held back by old content.


You want to summon Alexander, then fight him as a Boss

Then let me fight him without going through a ton of time gated quests first.

[Demonjustin]

Then let me fight him without going through a ton of time gated quests first.I say just remove the JPM wait times.

[Zeargi]

Then let me fight him without going through a ton of time gated quests first.
I'd agree on the removal of JPM, but won't agree to letting you fight the LAST @#%*ing boss of a story arch without going through it. >_<

[Ravenmore]

This depends on the piece of gear, look at Login Campaigns, they have supplied us with the ability to get any piece of Xar or Beau piece of gear for some time now, and continue to do so, this is what I was refering to, my new character which is account is based on literally has not stepped foot in Dynamis, completed rank 3, or even hit level 50, yet on a whim I have access to the Relic Body & Head for RDM which are by far the most important pieces of that entire set, and in reality, the only two pieces that have not been replaced for the job as of yet. THF can do the same with the TH hands and other jobs have a similar situation but I care not to look into each piece, while I admit every piece can not be obtained without Dynamis, a few can.

This player base dwindles in time as all games do, which means we need more players to take their place. Now I am all for reasonable requirements, I personally have no problem whatsoever with Alex, Odin, Dynamis, Limbus, or any other piece of content in this game having its requirements to do it so long as its reasonable and makes sense. What I am talking about being stupid here, is the fact that you need Sea access, that it, access for an event completely unrelated to any item required for AF enhancements to RF, in order to upgrade your AF gear.

Since when did RF upgrades have anything to do with Limbus? Show me 1 item that requires Limbus to obtain that is used in the process of upgrading a normal piece of AF into RF gear.

People play a game to have fun, everyone's sense of fun is different, if you find fun in going through hours upon hours or even days upon days of quests to get to basic gear that you had the items ready for, but lacked a simple quest being finished before the NPC would allow you to turn it in, then awesome, but most do not. I have quite a few friends I have tried to get into this game before that I know on Xbox and otherwise, I have had a 0% success rate with getting people into it due to the fact that every single one who got the game has played a month, told me its taking to long to get to a point of understanding what they are doing/need to do in the game to progress and the fact that everything is so drawn out to get to a decent point that they just can not bother to spend that much time starting a game.

Most games nowadays let you jump into the game and play it with others after a short period of time, this game, forces you to do old content that is easy by any stretch of the imagination and literally feels like a waste of time, its boring to most, and you have no choice but to do it in order to get to the point in the game where you can actually play with others, even then, things still suck because until you figure out how to gear and play in specific events you will be looked down upon and called gimp by everyone around you. The learning curve in this game sucks and the amount you need to do before you can even start to really play it and feel welcome in the game normally is absurd. They have helped to fix some of these things through systems such as Trust which help get people into the game faster, but if you truly think that people should be patient and enthused about playing a game and trying to get into it after the 10+ hours it takes to install and update on top of the days it will take you to get to a point of playing with others in a decent way, I think you're out of your mind.

I seriously can not for the life of me understand why such a simple improvement that makes sense is being so heavily opposed by people when the original complaint was about a requirement that doesn't even make sense!

They have been adding things left and right for people to skip past much of the grind. Hell reforge gear is not any where near be all end all and burning though a little grind to get to it is not that bad. In fact SE has done away with much of the content being locked behind mission progression. All the endgame content in SoA is opened either right from the start or after a few simple steps. Also when they do try that people throw all kinds of fits that they give in and re add much of the grind. I think FFXI is the most forgiving learning curve of them all right now. It is so simple and easy to follow it's not even funny.

[Zeargi]

I think FFXI is the most forgiving learning curve of them all right now. It is so simple and easy to follow it's not even funny.

You obviously haven't played FFXIV. :B

[detlef]

This depends on the piece of gear, look at Login Campaigns, they have supplied us with the ability to get any piece of Xar or Beau piece of gear for some time now, and continue to do so, this is what I was refering to, my new character which is account is based on literally has not stepped foot in Dynamis, completed rank 3, or even hit level 50, yet on a whim I have access to the Relic Body & Head for RDM which are by far the most important pieces of that entire set, and in reality, the only two pieces that have not been replaced for the job as of yet. THF can do the same with the TH hands and other jobs have a similar situation but I care not to look into each piece, while I admit every piece can not be obtained without Dynamis, a few can.You can't count anything from login campaigns because they will not always be available. The intended method of obtainment is still by doing Dynamis. Just because SE is giving us free Apollyon and Temenos pieces doesn't mean that you should be able to upgrade your AF to +1 without completing enough missions to access Limbus.

[Demonjustin]

You can't count anything from login campaigns because they will not always be available. The intended method of obtainment is still by doing Dynamis. Just because SE is giving us free Apollyon and Temenos pieces doesn't mean that you should be able to upgrade your AF to +1 without completing enough missions to access Limbus.I don't care about AF+1 and it was never the subject of this discution so far as I know, from the start I have only talked about RF, not AF+1, the Reforged Gear, level 109 Gear, something that has 0 relation to Limbus at all.

[Crevox]

my new character which is account is based on literally has not stepped foot in Dynamis, completed rank 3, or even hit level 50, yet on a whim I have access to the Relic Body & Head for RDM which are by far the most important pieces of that entire set, and in reality, the only two pieces that have not been replaced for the job as of yet.

I don't get it, what items from the login campaign allow you to get relic armor, or have anything to do with it?

[Demonjustin]

Mog Kupon A-Bcd & Mog Kupon A-Xar though it seems they aren't in this one and weren't in the last one either, apologies, they were in the first 5 in a row but it seems that 6 & 7 lack them.

[bungiefanNA]

Reforged is tied to AF+1, because it is cheaper to upgrade AF+1 than AF to reforged. The NPCs are tied together. They're trying to give incentive to upgrading the pieces through Limbus.

[Demonjustin]

Reforged is tied to AF+1, because it is cheaper to upgrade AF+1 than AF to reforged. The NPCs are tied together. They're trying to give incentive to upgrading the pieces through Limbus.Incentive was given, some people will choose to upgrade to +1 and go with that cheaper cost, I myself did when it was originally released, however, it should be a choice. RF is not tied to Limbus, AF+1 is, the fact people can upgrade either AF or AF+1 to RF means the requirement should be open to everyone, if you want to upgrade without having done CoP & getting to Sea you should be free to do so, you will have to use more Rem's, but thats a cost you choose to pay, besides the optional AF+1 upgrade however there are no connections between RF & Limbus, and since thats optional and you can completely avoid it by simply using normal AF gear in the transaction, it should not be a requirement.

[Twille]

I don't see any problem with the pre-reqs as they are. Not like the content is difficult anymore anyway.

[SilentSteel]

But the fact that RF Is irrefutably tied to AF+1, whether you yourself have gotten it or not, makes sense why the NPC needs to be tied to the AF+1 npc, who doesn't give the option to +1 it until the progression. Who knows what wrenches would be thrown into the code by tying it to the AF+1 but not the NPC which gives those upgrades in the first place, lol.

[Demonjustin]

I don't see any problem with the pre-reqs as they are. Not like the content is difficult anymore anyway.Part of why it makes no sense to force it, its a meaningless time sink at this point because it takes so little effort due to its level, the reason its so annoying is because the hardest and most time taking part is running around & getting CSs, oh boy, fun.


But the fact that RF Is irrefutably tied to AF+1, whether you yourself have gotten it or not, makes sense why the NPC needs to be tied to the AF+1 npc, who doesn't give the option to +1 it until the progression.No, it really doesn't since its not a requirement, there is literally no need to tie them together at all, its a choice they made, and a bad one, but I am tired of arguing the same things over and over again when no one is paying attention it seems or just doesn't care, so fk it.

[Renaissance2K]

I'm pretty sure, if you ask the right person, anything in this game will be called a meaningless timesink.

Why do I have to run around and collect the Home Points before I can warp to them? Meaningless timesink.
Why do I have to farm Merit Points in order to enter the Ark Angel fights? We should be able to enter whenever we want. Meaningless timesink.
Why isn't my drop 100%? Meaningless timesink.
In fact, why do I have to do the fight at all? I should just be able to get it from a NPC. Meaningless timesink.
Why do I have to walk all the way to the other side of the zone to that NPC to claim my item? It should just appear in my Delivery Box. Meaningless timesink.

You know what this game becomes if everything is handed to you? A meaningless timesink.

[Demonjustin]

Asking not to have to do nearly an entire storyline in order to turn in items you already have for a piece of gear even though you have already obtained every single item for it, is akin to items being sent directly to your Dbox, well now that we have gotten the slippery slope argument out of the way, this is truly pointless.

[Renaissance2K]

It is entirely reasonable to have content story-locked. Lots of games do it, including FFXIV. You can't do anything in that game without progressing to a completely arbitrary point in the story.

[Xantavia]

Asking not to have to do nearly an entire storyline in order to turn in items you already have for a piece of gear even though you have already obtained every single item for it, is akin to items being sent directly to your Dbox, well now that we have gotten the slippery slope argument out of the way, this is truly pointless.
But isn't that almost exactly where the items have come from? Not your delivery box exactly but from a moogle right outside of the moghouse, and all you are required to do is log in X number of times.

[Zeargi]

But isn't that almost exactly where the items have come from? Not your delivery box exactly but from a moogle right outside of the moghouse, and all you are required to do is log in X number of times.
The login campaign isn't an excuse to change it. You can get +2 items for Emps. as well. It's only a means to an end in order to expedite the process of acquiring the specific items you need over the random chance of the entire bunch.

[Demonjustin]

But isn't that almost exactly where the items have come from? Not your delivery box exactly but from a moogle right outside of the moghouse, and all you are required to do is log in X number of times.Again I say, I do not care about +1, it is not the subject I have been arguing about in the first place nor is it connected to the RF in any way besides the connection they made via NPCs, one which did not need to be made and was their choice, and secondly, the fact you may choose to upgrade your AF to +1 before performing the upgrade to RF if you so choose.

RF, Reforged Gear, is obtainable by having the AF Piece you wish to upgrade, 1 Craft Material that varies depending on the job the gear belongs to, for instance, RDM AF requires 1 Scarlet Linen, 1 Craft Material that varies depending on the piece you wish to upgrade, for instance, Phoenix Feather for Head, and lastly, 10 Copies of Rem's Tale, the Chapter of which depends on the piece you wish to upgrade, just like the aforementioned Craft Material.

None of the AF Pieces in the entire game have any relation to Limbus in any way shape or form in order to obtain them, only in upgrading them to +1 status. The list of Craft Materials that vary from job to job are Tiger Leather, Gold Thread, Imperial Silk Cloth, Karakul Cloth, Scarlet Linen, Gold Thread, Gold Sheet, Darksteel Sheet, and Tama-Hagane, each and every single one of these 9 items can be obtained from Crafting, Chests, Coffers or Notorious Monsters. The list of Craft Materials that vary depending on the piece you wish to upgrade are Phoenix Feather, Malboro Fiber, Beetle Blood, Damascene Cloth, and Oxblood, each and every single one of these 5 items can be obtained from KSNMs, Chests in Abyssea, or Notorious Monsters of various origin. The final items needed, Rem's Tale Chapters 1 through 5, are all obtained via Burning Circle Notorious Monster battles entered using Sacred Kindred Crests.

None of these, require Limbus, Sea access, or a single bit of progress in the Chains of Promathia storyline. Please, tell me, what part of the items listed above am I incorrect about? What part of that comes from, or requires, Sea, Limbus, or any other form of Chains of Promathia progress?
ee


There are two separate NPCs for the upgrades, one for AF --> +1 and Relic --> +1, and a second for the upgrade of AF --> RF, these are two entirely different NPCs, the fact that the first of the two requires you to have Sea access before you can talk to them should not in any way affect your ability to talk to the second whatsoever, nor should it affect your ability to upgrade your AF into RF, due to the fact there are no connections to Limbus between anything this NPC asks you to obtain.

The only connection between RF and Sea or Limbus is the connection created by the fact the NPC is an associate of the original NPC, story wise, this does make sense, but it does not explain why she would be unwilling to assist in any way when we already are in possession of what she requires, but as soon as we complete a specific quest, one which does not directly involve her in any way, she all of a sudden is happy as can be to assist us.

Again I say, please, tell me how I am incorrect in anything I have said here, I would love to know exactly how it makes sense.

[Zeargi]

Again I say, I do not care about +1, it is not the subject I have been arguing about in the first place nor is it connected to the RF in any way besides the connection they made via NPCs, one which did not need to be made and was their choice, and secondly, the fact you may choose to upgrade your AF to +1 before performing the upgrade to RF if you so choose.

RF, Reforged Gear, is obtainable by having the AF Piece you wish to upgrade, 1 Craft Material that varies depending on the job the gear belongs to, for instance, RDM AF requires 1 Scarlet Linen, 1 Craft Material that varies depending on the piece you wish to upgrade, for instance, Phoenix Feather for Head, and lastly, 10 Copies of Rem's Tale, the Chapter of which depends on the piece you wish to upgrade, just like the aforementioned Craft Material.

None of the AF Pieces in the entire game have any relation to Limbus in any way shape or form in order to obtain them, only in upgrading them to +1 status. The list of Craft Materials that vary from job to job are Tiger Leather, Gold Thread, Imperial Silk Cloth, Karakul Cloth, Scarlet Linen, Gold Thread, Gold Sheet, Darksteel Sheet, and Tama-Hagane, each and every single one of these 9 items can be obtained from Crafting, Chests, Coffers or Notorious Monsters. The list of Craft Materials that vary depending on the piece you wish to upgrade are Phoenix Feather, Malboro Fiber, Beetle Blood, Damascene Cloth, and Oxblood, each and every single one of these 5 items can be obtained from KSNMs, Chests in Abyssea, or Notorious Monsters of various origin. The final items needed, Rem's Tale Chapters 1 through 5, are all obtained via Burning Circle Notorious Monster battles entered using Sacred Kindred Crests.

None of these, require Limbus, Sea access, or a single bit of progress in the Chains of Promathia storyline. Please, tell me, what part of the items listed above am I incorrect about? What part of that comes from, or requires, Sea, Limbus, or any other form of Chains of Promathia progress?
ee


There are two separate NPCs for the upgrades, one for AF --> +1 and Relic --> +1, and a second for the upgrade of AF --> RF, these are two entirely different NPCs, the fact that the first of the two requires you to have Sea access before you can talk to them should not in any way affect your ability to talk to the second whatsoever, nor should it affect your ability to upgrade your AF into RF, due to the fact there are no connections to Limbus between anything this NPC asks you to obtain.

The only connection between RF and Sea or Limbus is the connection created by the fact the NPC is an associate of the original NPC, story wise, this does make sense, but it does not explain why she would be unwilling to assist in any way when we already are in possession of what she requires, but as soon as we complete a specific quest, one which does not directly involve her in any way, she all of a sudden is happy as can be to assist us.

Again I say, please, tell me how I am incorrect in anything I have said here, I would love to know exactly how it makes sense.
Regard if you care about the AF+1 or not, it's still part of the Reforging process... By the games logic, you can't get to Temenos or Apollyon... Which also means you can't get the other crafting items: Diabolic Yarn, etc... SE made the choice to link them, much like Shami and Shemo. It don't matter how you got the other items; They're linked, plan and simple, just play through the game and get the cosmo-cleanse

[Demonjustin]

Regard if you care about the AF+1 or not, it's still part of the Reforging process... By the games logic, you can't get to Temenos or Apollyon... Which also means you can't get the other crafting items: Diabolic Yarn, etc... SE made the choice to link them, much like Shami and Shemo. It don't matter how you got the other items; They're linked, plan and simple, just play through the game and get the cosmo-cleanseAF+1 is not part of the reforging process if you use normal AF...

[SilentSteel]

but other people need to use AF+1 as they have upgraded it, thus why it's linked, lol.

[Bigrob33]

AF+1 is not part of the reforging process if you use normal AF...

While this may be true, if you read what the NPC asks for as part of the reforging process, it is the +1 piece along with the 2 mats and the 5 rem's pages. Or you can use the nq AF gear and more rem's as an alternative. So it would appear by that dialog that SE intended for players to attempt to complete the CoP storyline. And I'm not saying this was a right or wrong decision, but it is a decision that SE made that we have to live with for now. I'm sure in some future update, if this issue gets some run, then we will see change.

[Demonjustin]

Well see the reason I keep saying I don't care about +1 is because that NPC can stay how it is & I have no problems with it, if that NPC stays how it is, it has nothing to do with RF, and it would force people who want to +1 it first to do CoP, but those who want RF can pay the higher price all the same and walk away with their gear if they want. Thats what I have been trying to get at.

[SilentSteel]

Yeah, that makes sense and would be nice if they had done that. We just don't know how they've tied everything together coding wise, maybe it would have been a while before they could have implemented it like that, idk.

[Bigrob33]

I can see SE adding a "blackmarket" NPC to the RF some time. It will probably cost something like 100k gil + all the items to upgrade the RF to 109 or something to that note. Since it would seem SE wants people to do the content, there will be a penalty, in the form of gil, to bypass what they have intended for the players to do. And I can't say I would disagree with a decision like that. This would give the player a choice of whether to skip past the story at the cost of gil, or buckle down and push thru it. Ala airship quest or gaining access to Adoulin.

[Karah]

Well see the reason I keep saying I don't care about +1 is because that NPC can stay how it is & I have no problems with it, if that NPC stays how it is, it has nothing to do with RF, and it would force people who want to +1 it first to do CoP, but those who want RF can pay the higher price all the same and walk away with their gear if they want. Thats what I have been trying to get at.

If you haven't completed the story for the game you're playing you don't deserve (ANY) rewards from it.

Like I said on page one, be thankful you aren't FORCED to obtain the +1 set before reforging at all.

[Lithera]

Yay the op found out what was wrong. Should there have been something in the quest that said you needed sea? Sure but then this is XI not XIV where they pretty much hold your hand in every quest to the point your map is even marked. You don't need 119 af right now go get skirmish gear or other just as easy to obtain gear. Right now the only reason I see why we even have 119 af is because of the Q.Qing about geo and run base af is already up there. To me you're worse than the people in XIV who are constantly Q.Qing about not having things to do because they've rushed to the end again.

[Demonjustin]

If you haven't completed the story for the game you're playing you don't deserve (ANY) rewards from it.

Like I said on page one, be thankful you aren't FORCED to obtain the +1 set before reforging at all.Firstly, RF is not a reward from CoP, and as I have repeatedly said, there are no connections between CoP & RF except for the ability to upgrade from +1 to RF if you choose, but its an optional path, which you can avoid by simply upgrading your regular AF, so in that respect its not a reward from a story which you have not completed.

Secondly, I really don't care about your opinion much anymore Karah, you make such poor arguments for everything, like this one, being thankful they didn't do something even worse does not make what they did better, thats one of the weakest arguments anyone can ever use, almost as bad as the slippery slope 'why not just send it to your delivery box' argument people use. The problem with arguments like that is anything can be made to look good, like 'be thankful the repop on ToAU kings isn't 3 months' or 'be thankful Empyreans do not require 15000 plates rather than 1500' just because it could be worse doesn't mean that what we have is good nor that we should just accept it for what it is and never complain. Yes, we did not have to upgrade to +1, yay, but in all honesty I'll say if we did, at very least this requirement of Sea access would make more sense, instead, it makes no sense, and is seemingly a pointless restriction placed with no real need.


Right now the only reason I see why we even have 119 af is because of the Q.Qing about geo and run base af is already up there.Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I believe since before the release of RUN & GEO AF they had stated they had intentions to implement upgraded versions of previous AF gear, which would mean it was not due to our complaints, it was planned from the start.

People complained because they found it stupid, and many still do, that the two newest jobs get no AF at 40/52~60 when every other job does, and rather, SE simply implemented them at a high level to begin with, making it less enjoyable for people to level. In all honesty, since that time, I have changed my stance on it from it being a good idea, to a bad idea, because now anyone doing those quests can hardly get help since the method is so vastly different than that of the RF for any other job that they have no relation, and are mostly unable to be soloed. Either way, that is another topic all together.

[Karah]

Completing the story is the whole reason to play the game, there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about making it a requirement.

Your other points are just arbitrarily pointless. 1500 plates, is already excessive, TOAU kings repops ARE excessive etc.

Having something done you should've done LONG AGO, is reasonable beyond explanation just at face value, it needs no argument.

Even if you started TODAY you could finish COP in (2?) days. ((Because of the arbitrary day change requirements.))

[Demonjustin]

Completing the story is the whole reason to play the game, there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about making it a requirement.

Having something done you should've done LONG AGO, is reasonable beyond explanation just at face value, it needs no argument.

Even if you started TODAY you could finish COP in (2?) days. ((Because of the arbitrary day change requirements.))Should have done long ago had you been playing for a long period of time, from what I understand the OP is a new player, I myself made a new character and have already experienced this story 2 times previously. In either of these two instances you can not or should not expect a person to have done this expansion already, and doing it seems a needless pain. It seems very annoying that you must go out of your way to do story missions alone for a few days worth of time simply to get armor you already had the items for in the first place, from the viewpoint of a new player, I can not see people wanting to be forced into doing it, if anything, people likely want to take their time with it and enjoy the experience rather than rush through it so they can get what they wanted in the first place, and as someone making a new character who has done it before, I get no benefit out of doing it again, its just an annoyance.


You're other points are just arbitrarily pointless. 1500 plates, is already excessive, TOAU kings repops ARE excessive etc.1500 plates is an excessive amount, ToAU repops are insane, and that proves my point, just saying that something could suck worse, does not mean it doesn't already suck. All you're doing here is proving exactly the point I was attempting to get across but it seems to have went over your head.

Argument: 1500 Plates is ludicrous.
Reply: Be thankful its not 15000 Plates.
Logically its a failed argument, 1500 Plates is ludicrous, simply stating that 15000 would be worse does not make 1500 any better.

Argument: ToAU kings can take weeks to pop and some even claim it's taken them more than a month, this needs to be changed!
Reply: Be thankful they aren't 3 month repop timers.
Logically its a failed argument, weeks or a month is ludicrous, simply stating that 3 months would be worse does not make this issue any better.

Argument: I should not need to have Sea access to turn in my upgrade items for my RF when I already have everything needed and none of it involves CoP.
Reply: Be thankful they didn't force you to have the +1 first.
Logically its a failed argument, needing to have Sea access for something that does not relate to Sea directly makes no sense, the fact they did not make it require +1 to upgrade them in the first place does not make the original problem any better, it just means they didn't do something even worse that they could have.

Do you now understand the argument I was making and how you seem to have missed it?

[Karah]

Nope, your arguments fail.

Plates; 1500 excessive, 15000 excessive, hell 150 is excessive. No reason it shouldn't be 100 except that people "need" things to sell. 50 > 75 > 100 ((logic)) 50 > 75 > 1500 (((retarded)))

Kings repop should be 20 minutes. No reason it isn't other than arbitrary HNM rules.

Didn't complete the story?; You don't get jackshit; totally reasonable. Nothing arbitrary about it.

[Demonjustin]

Nope, your arguments fail.I think its more that we simply have differing opinions on what qualifies on excessive, for instance...


Didn't complete the story?; You don't get jackshit; totally reasonable. Nothing arbitrary about it.I believe it is excessive to require a storyline be nearly completed when it holds no relevance in relation to the armor of which you wish to obtain.

[Karah]

I know this will probably anger a few people, but here's what it really comes down to...

If you lack Raja's Ring your opinion really doesn't matter. (ESPECIALLY if you picked sattva or tamas!! lawl)

I know it's not as awesome as it used to be, but I'm saying it anyway.

By that logic, if you're worried about not being able to complete reforging because of sea access, then you lack Raja's and therefore are irrelevant.

There's no arguing your way out of it, there's no opposing views, it just is.

There is no excuse at all for not having CoP (and RotZ and WotG ASA/AMK/ACP etcetcetcetc) completed. period. ((unless you're just plain lazy, and therefor doubly irrelevant))

http://i44.tinypic.com/2qbi13t.gif

#throwback 90s style

[Demonjustin]

If you lack Raja's Ring your opinion really doesn't matter.Well lets just get the fact I have Rajas out of the way, I am Demonjustin, this account uses a different character, and thus, I do have it even if it does not show it on this specific character, there for it would seem my opinion should seem to matter, so, moving on.


By that logic, if you're worried about not being able to complete reforging because of sea access, then you lack Raja's and therefore are irrelevant.

There is no excuse at all for not having CoP (and RotZ and WotG ASA/AMK/ACP etcetcetcetc) completed. period.So new players should have all expansions completed within the first month of their time on the game, because seriously, that's the amount of time it would take for a character to get to 99 with RoE & Trust but no leaching in Abyssea, and by the time they hit 99, they would be capable of getting their AF, as well as affording all of the required items between RoE & the AH.

This is why I simply don't care about your opinion anymore, because you don't have a bit of empathy for other people here, its just you, you matter, this doesn't have any ability to affect you even, positive or negative, yet, here you are, complaining against changing it.



I have explained over and over why this change should be done, and why the requirement makes no sense, no one has been able to give a real reason as to why, only scapegoat reasons, other games do it, AF+1 involves it so somehow that means that using AF itself should be restricted too, it could be worse, you're just lazy if you don't do the content anyways, or the good ol why not just deliver the item straight to your room!? All just a bunch of things distracting from the fact there is no reason not to change it, and there is no reason for the restriction to be there in the first place that we know of outside of the fact that SE arbitrarily chose to put it there.

[Karah]

So new players should have all expansions completed within the first month of their time on the game.

Damn straight. Considering having the reward for clearing CoP (Raja's) is a seriously worthwhile piece of gear. STILL generally the best possible ring in most if not all situations.




SE arbitrarily chose to put it there.

Like I said, this is the ONE time they didn't make an arbitrary roadblock. You should look up what arbitrary means. because (granted se doesn't use logic very often) LOGICALLY they want you to follow all the steps. Obtain AF, Plus one it, Reforge it.

They make mention many times over of the gear ladder (now with ilevel) so, for the last time, be thankful (seriously, quit crying about it) that you can skip the limbus stage at all.

[Demonjustin]

You should look up what arbitrary means.Arbitrary, based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. I try not to use words I don't know, I said what I meant and meant what I said.


LOGICALLY they want you to follow all the steps. Obtain AF, Plus one it, Reforge it.They want you to, but do not force you to, the fact they do not force you to do the AF+1 upgrade is why it is so nonsensical that they would however still force you to have progress up to the point where you can obtain the AF+1 upgrade. To me, they went with a middle ground in a very stupid way, either they could force you to have the AF+1 before you could upgrade, which is what you are saying, or, they could have made it so that you needed no CoP progression in order to perform the upgrade, but the AF+1 upgrade would have been cheaper as it is. Either of these two ways would have honestly made sense. The middle ground is to make it so you still need progress enough to do Sea/Limbus and thus, upgrade to AF+1, but then at the same time not make it a requirement to get AF+1 before you can upgrade. That to me, makes no sense, and seems very stupid.


They make mention many times over of the gear ladder (now with ilevel) so, for the last time, be thankful (seriously, quit crying about it) that you can skip the limbus stage at all.Be thankful it doesn't suck more, got ya, thank you for repeating the same poor argument again.

[Karah]

It makes perfect sense if you use some actual thought, instead of just blindly whining.

While you can skip the step of +1 the original gear, you must be CAPABLE of +1ing it, to be able to skip it, it's really not a hard concept to grasp.

If you are unable to +1 the original set, then logic would dictate that you cannot +2 and +3 it (as RF would be counted as af1+2 and af1+3 just renamed RF and RF+1 ((((arbitrarily)))) it could've just as easily been designated as AF1+2 and blue bordered, making ALL ARGUMENTS NULL AND VOID.

Simply because they choose to name it reforge instead of +2, you think you have ground to stand on and place a valid argument, this is inaccurate.

[Demonjustin]

Simply because they choose to name it reforge instead of +2, you think you have ground to stand on and place a valid argument, this is inaccurate.The reason I believe I have valid ground to stand on in my argument is due to the fact that it allows you to skip the +1 stage entirely, no matter if it were named +2 or not that would make no difference in my argument because simply looking at Relic renders that entire line of thought irrelevant. Relic was +1'd through the same exact NPC AF is +1'd and required access to Sea/Limbus all the same, but the +2, which did not require the +1 in the same way this does not, had no such restriction, and in the same way as this, it was done through a different NPC, with different items, none of which had anything exclusive to a zone requiring an ounce of CoP progress.

My argument and the ground on which I stand have nothing to do with names, borders, or the fact it is not named +2, my argument has to do with patterns shown by gear that had a fairly similar progression structure and the fact that the items required have no connection at all to Sea or Limbus.

[Ravenmore]

Even for new people CoP is not a problem with Wiki telling them exactly what to do and at 99 with reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy easy to get Ilevel gear they can curb stomp their way right to Reforge all the while racking up more sparks for more seals. Really dude that started the thread was almost 99 when he wrote the first post after only 10 days so it's not like he wasted a whole bunch of time and could still do the content that the seals came from while doing all the other relevant endgame content. But hey what can SE do really, if the made it were you didn't have to do anything but collect the seals and trade them in people would be crying that it was giving things away to easy and new players don't know how to play so on and so on.

Now I could use the same BS argument that others throw around when REMs where under fire that the grind, low drop rates and the extremely slow progression was the niche FFXI has but we all know it was bs and the real niche was it being a Final fantasy title. When people think of Final fantasy, story is the main point and why you deal with the grind that comes from a JRPG. Like I said before story is the one thing in the whole game that won't be outdated.

[Lithera]

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I believe since before the release of RUN & GEO AF they had stated they had intentions to implement upgraded versions of previous AF gear, which would mean it was not due to our complaints, it was planned from the start.

People complained because they found it stupid, and many still do, that the two newest jobs get no AF at 40/52~60 when every other job does, and rather, SE simply implemented them at a high level to begin with, making it less enjoyable for people to level. In all honesty, since that time, I have changed my stance on it from it being a good idea, to a bad idea, because now anyone doing those quests can hardly get help since the method is so vastly different than that of the RF for any other job that they have no relation, and are mostly unable to be soloed. Either way, that is another topic all together.

I don't think they did though until people complained that it was unfair that geo and run were getting their af that was an ilv equal to other things from SoA. I know they said we would be getting more armour just not AF until after. It has been a long time for me since I read those threads so I still could be wrong. People's main complaints wasn't really that it was stupid but more that SE's reasoning for when they got their AF didn't go with the previous 20 other jobs and the level people were allowed to get them along with the huge lack of gear lower than 75 to use if one didn't go and burn those jobs to 99.

Back to the main complaint in the thread and about having to do old content just so you can obtain said new gear. It's CoP which like many have said is easily done solo for the most part and is not JP midnight heavy as say ToA where there are literally JP midnight stops after viewing just a CS. Or at least there used to be can't remember if they took those out or not.
Also it wouldn't be XI if the game suddenly started to actually be usefull when accepting a quest from an npc. Now if there was no oh btw you need to have gotten to sea on the wikis for this quest then yeah bad form. SE has always wanted people to go do old content they just have had a bad time coming up with usefull reasons why. It's funny that when they come up with an idea that is useful in end game people still cry.

[Ravenmore]

After reading it carefully I would have to agree with you on this, I mean it would make sense that since the Relics didn't require CoP to upgrade to +2, why do people have to have it to upgrade their original artifact armor? I can understand maybe if the artifact was at +1, but then again the base artifact shouldn't have required it. Yeah CoP is a ton easier than it was in the past, but there's a lot of running involved in this expansion just to be able to access one feature that isn't canonically tied to the expansion itself, it's just offered through the same NPC which could have been handled better.




Really Karah, why do you act like this? Did mom and dad not love you enough or something?

Though to really finish relic +2 you had to go into dyna and gain exp which you had to be past the shadow lord fight to even go in. If you were a mnk or drg you had to augment some of it. So there was a mission requirement on it as well.

[Anjou]

Well to get the relic armor you had to have access to dynamis, then farm in dynamis to get the Forgotten items.

To get the items yes I say that requirement is legitimate, because you can't upgrade something you don't have, whereas with CoP you didn't need the expansion to obtain the artifact armor (Unless you were DRG, SAM, NIN, etc)

[Lithera]

AF upgrading of any kind has always been tied to CoP ever since they came out with limbus the reason why +1ing relic does not is because of where relic comes from which is dynamics which is part of zilart. It would be silly to expect people to need something that doesn't come from there. There are new people who seriously don't care about story and just the end of the line and so don't even do any old content at all unless it helps get them to the end quicker. There are also a lot of people who dont even go and get their jobs af because why should you when you can just skip it? Specially when they're the player who doesn't want to take time to actually skill up while they level instead of at the end again. These people who just want to go from 30-99 via burned just want the best stuff with the least work. Some might say they are now being punished because holy crap I now have to go back and actually do something I now only care about because I want my stuuff. Damn you SE for making me go and do something I probably should have done before now so I wouldn't be in this situation in the 1st place.

Oh and the OP states after a reply that he is a RETURNING player who had done some pre cap lifting of CoP and not a completely new person. It was someone else further down that said they were new and had just gotten to 99 ten days from that post. In which the crying started about being made to go and do old content because he needed this shiney right now and couldn't be happy with easier things to get that would have allowed them to enjoy current content.

[Lithera]

Well to get the relic armor you had to have access to dynamis, then farm in dynamis to get the Forgotten items.

To get the items yes I say that requirement is legitimate, because you can't upgrade something you don't have, whereas with CoP you didn't need the expansion to obtain the artifact armor (Unless you were DRG, SAM, NIN, etc)

Drg nin and sam were not CoP jobs no jobs came with CoP. Those jobs were zilart along with smn.

[Demonjustin]

Anyone who can't beat CoP the first weekIts not about being unable to, its about not needing to, it's a pointless time sink and not everyone has the time to go waste away doing these quests for a few days just so they can get some armor they already have everything for, but just can not turn in, it's nothing to do with difficulty or anything of the sort. Besides that, if you think kicking off players and stopping new players would do anything but harm the game, your lack of sense is astounding.


It's funny that when they come up with an idea that is useful in end game people still cry.It was poorly done. The best way they can incentivise you to do those expansions which lead to events such as Sky, Limbus, or Salvage, is to simply redo the events as they did at 99, I have no doubt in my mind that making those events relevant again helped to motivate some people to get out there and unlock those pieces of content so that they could participate. Making a point of progression required in order to do something almost completely unrelated to it is not incentivisation but rather just putting a roadblock in people's path in order to make them do something they may not have otherwise.


AF upgrading of any kind has always been tied to CoP ever since they came out with limbus the reason why +1ing relic does not is because of where relic comes from which is dynamics which is part of zilart. It would be silly to expect people to need something that doesn't come from there.Relic Armor originates in Dynamis, it is +1'd via the same NPC as AF which requires Sea/Limbus access, as you said, silly, and then they require more stuff from Dynamis for +2, +1 may be skipped, CoP need not be touched. AF for any job in the game has no relation to CoP, in fact, its the only expansion which failed to produce a new job, and thus, had no AF, it did however have the upgrade to +1, now while no AF originates in CoP, just like Relic did not, AF is tied to a restriction of Sea/Limbus access for both +1 and +2 upgrades, again just as you put it, it is silly.

[Lithera]

Relic Armor originates in Dynamis, it is +1'd via the same NPC as AF which requires Sea/Limbus access, as you said, silly, and then they require more stuff from Dynamis for +2, +1 may be skipped, CoP need not be touched. AF for any job in the game has no relation to CoP, in fact, its the only expansion which failed to produce a new job, and thus, had no AF, it did however have the upgrade to +1, now while no AF originates in CoP, just like Relic did not, AF is tied to a restriction of Sea/Limbus access for both +1 and +2 upgrades, again just as you put it, it is silly.

Yes but I'm sure SE wanted something else than the two sets of gear you could get from beating omega and ultima. So that people who didn't get something from those fights had something else to look forward to get while they waited till it was their turn to lot on an item if the rng was being nice that day. Please tell me what other gear would you think of to go with other than AF to be used or rewarded with. If one took away the upgrading of AF and the items that were needed to do so besides the abcs there would be no reason for some people to go to limbus runs if you were only needing to get some temp key items to fight the boss you wanted an item from. People would loose interest and quit shells once they had their stuff and limbus might have died an even quicker death.

I meant it would be silly for relic upgrade to need CoP. Sure they could have made it use a different npc but they didn't so whining about that part now is moot. They chose to tie AF upgrades to limbus and thus sea access and thus having to do CoP so that there would be something else to do limbus for. The neo limbus things are now lol with the fact they probably don't out do an ilv 115 piece along with the salvage so yeah bad SE for doing what they have done with all other older content once abyssea came out and the cap was now stupid high and a lot of the older gear became worthless. So now that they are trying to make an old set of gear be wanted in the current content they are in a way trying to not only learn from the past but try n fix it. Not my fault there are so many lazy people playing the game these days who just want to rush to the top and not stop once in a while and take in the view.

[detlef]

Relic Armor originates in Dynamis, it is +1'd via the same NPC as AF which requires Sea/Limbus access, as you said, silly, and then they require more stuff from Dynamis for +2, +1 may be skipped, CoP need not be touched. AF for any job in the game has no relation to CoP, in fact, its the only expansion which failed to produce a new job, and thus, had no AF, it did however have the upgrade to +1, now while no AF originates in CoP, just like Relic did not, AF is tied to a restriction of Sea/Limbus access for both +1 and +2 upgrades, again just as you put it, it is silly.In order to complete relic gear, you need to gain experience in Dynamis. Therefore, these pieces are tied to Dynamis progress and, in turn, nation mission progress. It's not CoP but it's still mission progress. You can argue that you can upgrade to +2 without setting foot in dynamis, but this requires Bonanza or Login and therefore doesn't count.

[Karah]

Justin, I don't even need to read your reply after the first sentence, to even pretend that the reward from CoP isn't worth the effort to finish it, shows you have no right to even be playing whatsoever.

[Olor]

Time. Consuming. None of this is a challenge. I am not "earning" anything. I am running from place to place doing fetch quests. Like I said, I wanted to see the story, and I planned to do it at some point, but I am required to do it now for gear irrelevant to the level of the content. The story is fantastic, but it comes in bits and pieces between the monotony.

The greater majority of my game time has now been running from point A from point B to talk to NPC or beat up too weak to be worth while...

It's like a gigantic list labeled "Before you can start playing and enjoying the game, first complete this gigantic checklist of fetchquests:"

Yeah, it really sucks. It is just 100 per cent NOT fun to have to spend an evening running between NPCs when you wanted to play a video game. Old missions should not lock new content.

[Olor]

Why do people keep saying this? Do you honestly think that doing CoP is difficult in any way? It's not. There is no "reward" in completing this, there is no sense of achievement, there is no accomplishment. It's a gigantic series of fetch quests, and it's a gigantic waste of time. The story is great, but like I said, experiencing it in game just makes it take forever.

Nobody says I want everything for free. I already earned my AF items to trade in, but I can't. I WANT to do AA fights, but again, I can't, because I haven't finished Zilart. I want to do a LOT of things, but I can't because I have not finished all of these stupid fetch quests. I can't even get a party because I don't have Alexander.

Stop acting like completing CoP is actually something that is difficult and is something I need to complete to "earn" things. It's not. I shouldn't have to do this.

And yes, obviously I am completing it, because I don't have a choice.

What the heck is wrong with this community? It's people like you that stop new people from playing this game.

Yeah. It's insane. People want you to do 10 years of content to play with people today. That's just not sane. You're not asking for a Raja ring - you're asking to be able to claim the rewards of the MODERN content you completed. If you wanted a Raja ring without completing COP people would have a point, but declaring someone is lazy because they don't want to do quests that were 100% outdated 5 years ago in order to participate in modern content? That's nuts.

[Louispv]

If you talk to the AF+2 upgrade NPC she doesn't know who you are or why she should care what you want. Just as if you walked up to me on the street, handed me your soiled panties, 10 random pieces of paper and an animal skin and told me to make you pants, I would also not give a damn. She is a member of a criminal enterprise looking for illegal goods and doesn't just talk to anyone she meets.

If, however, you talk to Sagheera, she tells you the criminal organization is looking for people to supply them with illegal materials found only in Sea. If you prove your worth to her by bringing her those materials from Sea, she finds you to be a dependable source of illegal merchandise. When her friend also needs illegal merchandise, and doesn't know where to get them, and you have illegal merchandise, and have no idea what to do with them, she refers the two of you to each other.

If you haven't helped Sagheera, you're some crazy person running through the street with soiled undies, some scraps of paper, and no clue what to do with them. It is a fucking quest line, just like every other quest line, in every other game, ever! The NPC's tell you this shit directly! How is this connection alluding you?

The only way you wouldn't understand this is if you don't read anything the characters say. And we already know you don't want to play the game, cause your against doing the content. We know you don't want to see the story, cause you can just read the script online. Why are you even playing the damn game if you do not want to do any part of the game?

You want to rush straight to the ark angel v2 fights so you can... fight the ark angels some more? Cause that's all that's left after you have AF+2, getting AF+3 and the slightly better stuff the AA's drop. Delve's been dead ever since skirmish/AF+2 came out, since it's all crap in comparison. Maybe do some skirmish if you need hagondes gear. Maybe work on a Relic or a mythic, wait, that requires you to do all that old useless content your refuse to do. Then the game's over, there's nothing left to do, why even play?

[Demonjustin]

Just as if you walked up to me on the street, handed me your soiled panties, 10 random pieces of paper and an animal skin and told me to make you pants, I would also not give a damn.But if your friend told you that I was looking for someone to make my pants, all of a sudden, you would care, and you would make my pants? Doubtful.


If, however, you talk to Sagheera, she tells you the criminal organization is looking for people to supply them with illegal materials found only in Sea. If you prove your worth to her by bringing her those materials from Sea, she finds you to be a dependable source of illegal merchandise. When her friend also needs illegal merchandise, and doesn't know where to get them, and you have illegal merchandise, and have no idea what to do with them, she refers the two of you to each other.So basically her friend has 0 ability to take any sort of initiative by saying 'Oh look, this random guy running up to me has exactly what I am looking for and could use, I should talk to them' and instead says 'Oh, look, that random guy running at me has exactly what I need but I have never heard of him before, since Sagheera doesn't know him I guess its impossible for me to talk to him.'? That makes a lot of sense I guess.

[Louispv]

But if your friend told you that I was looking for someone to make my pants, all of a sudden, you would care, and you would make my pants? Doubtful.
And if you read what the NPC says, she's having the guys back at Tenshodo HQ make you the pants as payment for completing the job of getting her the pages. That is explicitly the reason why you have to wait a game day. She doesn't give a shit about the pants. When her friend comes up to her and says, "We already know this guy isn't an undercover cop trying to set up a sting operation cause he's done a bunch of jobs for us in the past." then yes, only then will she make the deal.


So basically her friend has 0 ability to take any sort of initiative by saying 'Oh look, this random guy running up to me has exactly what I am looking for and could use, I should talk to them' and instead says 'Oh, look, that random guy running at me has exactly what I need but I have never heard of him before, since Sagheera doesn't know him I guess its impossible for me to talk to him.'? That makes a lot of sense I guess.
And why would you be showing her the pages? How would she know you have the pages? Have you been shoving these illegal documents into the face of every single person in the entire city and just been working your way through the phone book, 1 by 1, until someone trades them for something? You would literally be the craziest hobo ever.

[Demonjustin]

And if you read what the NPC says, she's having the guys back at Tenshodo HQ make you the pants as payment for completing the job of getting her the pages. That is explicitly the reason why you have to wait a game day. She doesn't give a shit about the pants. When her friend comes up to her and says, "We already know this guy isn't an undercover cop trying to set up a sting operation cause he's done a bunch of jobs for us in the past." then yes, only then will she make the deal.Yes, I know she's having someone else make them, you're ignoring the point I am making, its not a matter of who makes them, its a matter of her being unable to do anything on her own until her friend tells her its ok. Which seems to mean that she has no ability to make a choice on her part seeing as she only can determine if a person is legit by asking the person next to her, which seems to know you're trustworthy out of nowhere.

But, overall I will admit in the case of Sagheera herself, I do not know what she says when you first talk to her, because originally I only talked to her for Soap so I could get my Brutal and at the time had 0 care for any story behind it.


And why would you be showing her the pages?I would be showing her the pages because my friends told me that she deals in this illegal trade, just like how her friend would tell her that I am looking for someone to do what I need. Unless you're telling me they are allowed to talk to one another but in the story we are forbidden to do the same, in which case, I see your point.


How would she know you have the pages?I walked right up to her and tried to hand them to her, thats how.


Have you been shoving these illegal documents into the face of every single person in the entire city and just been working your way through the phone book, 1 by 1, until someone trades them for something? You would literally be the craziest hobo ever.As I said above, my friends told me who to talk to, thus, I spoke to her, literally that simple to get around that logic.

[Ravenmore]

Cause it cast light on to FFXI as a simple gear grinder that does a really bad job at it(when they try to outdate gear people get up in arms and trying a hybrid of keeping relics and reworking older models it feels lazy). Least with the story lines it is a cut above other gear grinders and out of the other MMOs the story is pretty good with CS that still hold up well even with the outdated graphics.

[AyinDygra]

People keep talking about how irrelevant or ancient these quests are (out-dated old content), giving out dated rewards... which baffles me.
If you have never done these quests before, they're NEW to YOU. They are also logically tied to the progression of the upgrade path you must take to keep the rewards relevant.

The Logical Path: (Follow with me here for a moment)

Obtain original AF.

IMPORTANT: Obtain Sea Access by (spoiler)

and become qualified (or shall I say: have enough CoP mission progress, that functions like nation fame in many respects) to interact with the NPC who can BEGIN the AF upgrade process, who explains:
"I came from the Near East to peddle my wares. I heard that there are simply hordes of gullib--err, that is, I have heard of the great adventurers that roam this land, and wish to be of service to them. If you happen to know of any seasoned adventurers, I ask that you bring them to me. Be sure to tell them of my fabulous good!
Wait a moment...
You are an adventurer, are you not? I hear your sort does all kinds of things--fighting with monsters, cooking, and collecting all sorts of little knickknacks...
Oh, I am truly sorry if I have offended you. I am from a land far to the east of here, and tales of adventurers are quite popular in my hometown.
Anyway, you adventurers are quite the rowdy lot, always playing outside and showing up looking as if you had wallowed in mud, correct?
Are you really so dirty?
Oh my, such confidence.
Could it be because you possess that remarkable armor I have heard about in rumors...artifact armor, I believe it is called?
I am not finished, so wait! Undoubtedly your artifact armor was once something to take pride in, but at present it is surely quite battered from your adventuring, not to mention that it has simply become old and could use a boost...correct?
If I were you, my dear friend, I would take your precious artifact armor and restore it! Rejuvenate it! Give it new life! Does that not sound like the proper course of action?
I know exactly what you need. You absolutely must bring the necessary ingredients, and I will send them with your artifact armor to the craftsmen of the Near East for a miniscule fee in ancient beastcoins!
There, I have contracts with the most skilled artisans, who will make your artifact armor shine like never before."

Go to Limbus to gather materials and ancient beastcoins to upgrade it to +1 versions. (The only option that existed for years.)

Gather more stuff to make AF+1 into the new and improved "Reforged" versions.
OR Take SE's generous short-cut to use different (easier to gather) materials to transform AF OR AF+1 into Reforged gear.

Gather more stuff from new battles to make RF into Reforged +1 versions.

...

This gear is following an upgrade path that requires mission progress to begin.
It's that simple. They're all connected as one string of gear...

It's like taking a relic weapon from Dynamis and upgrading it. Dynamis is "outdated content", but the rewards (can be) relevant today, ...
(Imagine this: the only versions of relic/empy/mythic that are worthwhile today are the 119's... why should we have to get the originals to 99 first? We'll just skip over all that crazy ancient currency, alexandrite, HMP's with a new "short-cut" item from SE that lets us take the base drop versions and just do the final quests... but we don't think we need the quest/mission progress needed to begin the upgrade processes in each case?)

... if the entire AF quest plus upgrade path was introduced in the same content update patch... it would ALL be considered relevant content. Being "Old" doesn't make any difference... it just means a lot of the players in the game have already done it by now.

Saying "Since I can skip the gathering of materials part of one step of the upgrade path I shouldn't need to be qualified to activate the quest in the first place!" is unreasonable, IMO.

I hope that makes the reasoning more clear.


Besides all that, from what I can tell, none of this is stopping someone from playing with people in today's new content (Ark Angels 2 and Divine Might 2) (unless people are going to complain about needing sky access to enter battlefields in sky...yeah... no argument is going to work there)

[Karah]

Amazing post!


That sir, was a perfect post. You said, in intricate detail, everything I'm far to impatient to bother explaining, and I applaud you.


Why Sagheera can tell we are trustworthy yet the other can't, explain that, and perhaps it will make a bit more sense.

Even Monisette is smart enough to know you aren't worth talking to.

[Lithera]

Because every npc in the game doesn't know you even if you have done previous expansions with them. I'm talking to you Zied and Aldo. Heck some npcs won't even want to talk to you unless you have met their fame requirements. So no matter how many times you save the world most npcs will act like they don't know that you're famous. Heck even the great Shantotto doesn't know you when doing blm quest line even if you did her quests for warp II or beaten anything else with her in it before taking on these quests.

[Olor]

What you all are missing is that when you roadblock modern content with ancient content that is mostly running around for hours spamming cutscenes you make it harder to keep new players. Most people don't play MMOs to solo cut scenes alone - they want to play with others.

All this chattering about game logic is meaningless. Game logic doesn't matter. If people had been allowed to make reforged AF without sea NO ONE would have said "oh that doesn't make sense" - who cares? I don't care - I just want to have stuff to do with my friends.

Again, I only play a few hours a week - if I feel like I need to spend those hours running between NPCs - well I'll probably unsub.

[Lithera]

Again no one is forcing you to go and get the reforged done at all let alone asap. There is enough gear out there that you can oh my gosh get with other people in a quick order. Is it all ilv 119? probably not. is it best in slot? Maybe pending on what you are looking for. Also it we all know you can get away with not wearing the extremely best if you can still hit your caps for whatever you are looking to cap.

[Ravenmore]

it is in no way a road block. It would be a road block if the fights were still all level capped and you still needed a full party as it has been said over and over you can burn though fast solo with little effort set the 500 damage RoE and you can get a little extra out of it as you go.

[bungiefanNA]

You also have to have some mission completion, and a lot of other stuff to get level 119 Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons. Why should the armor just be given away when the equivalent weapons aren't? Can't build a relic without Dynamis, which requires Rank 6, and then you have to do a bunch of other things or have a lot of gil to upgrade and hope people are farming them in events to sell them. Mythic requires questing and killing NMs. Empyrean requires EX items from NM kills. AF reforging is much less work and much easier requirements.

The armor from RoE is there for the giveaway stuff if you don't want to do the gated content, and is of relatively high level in comparison.

[cthullhu420]

I don't mind doing the old content and destroying the bosses but being stuck almost a week on a mission cause you need 2 people for that stupid sealion key crap is just ridiculous. Even harder when friends have long gone, no linkshell and a population anywhere between 500-700 people that are not willing to help unless there's a ridiculous reward or just cant be bothered or just afk all day. Not to mention my available playtime is anywhere from 11pm pst to 3 am pst so no Na primetime for me. Partied with a lot of japan/european players since 04 cause of the available play time but the auto translate becomes monotonous when trying to explain or give orders of what to do.

[Damane]

I don't mind doing the old content and destroying the bosses but being stuck almost a week on a mission cause you need 2 people for that stupid sealion key crap is just ridiculous. Even harder when friends have long gone, no linkshell and a population anywhere between 500-700 people that are not willing to help unless there's a ridiculous reward or just cant be bothered or just afk all day. Not to mention my available playtime is anywhere from 11pm pst to 3 am pst so no Na primetime for me. Partied with a lot of japan/european players since 04 cause of the available play time but the auto translate becomes monotonous when trying to explain or give orders of what to do.

I am sorry but if you dont have 1 friend left to help you quickly on such a mission, I dont see the point on why you are playing an MMO in the first place Oo. I also dont see why you didnt build up some connections with EU players or Eu Linkshells if you play in their timezone (gratned EU players are fewer then NA or JP)

The other solution would be to have a mule

[Crevox]

I dont see the point on why you are playing an MMO in the first place Oo.

Yeah, it makes no sense why SE would add trust NPCs. I mean, nobody plays alone. Nobody. Ever.

[Afania]

You really have to have beaten CoP to reforge the AF gear?

Why is such a random requirement in place? "Go do this really old content, all of it, in order to prepare yourself for current content, even if you already have the items"

It's just so bogus for players like myself. I was so happy I managed to get the pages and stuff together for the reforged AF in preparation for when I hit 99, and again it looks like I'm nowhere close because I have to go back to do tons of old missions in order to be able to get current content gear.

It just never ends. SE makes it so stupidly difficult to start this game as a new player. There's SO many things you have to go back and do, even at a high level, just to be able to play the game.

I'm just sitting here, just thinking about all of what I'm gonna have to go through. It just makes me not even want to play... I've already done SO MUCH, and every time I think I'm ready to actually level to 99 and enjoy myself, there's something more, some other chore I have to go complete first.

Just... sigh...

Randomly popped here then I see this Crevox guy complaining about "WHY THIS GAME TAKES FOREVER TO DO ANYTHING" again.

Maybe I'll ans the question this way: This is FFXI, a game that's different from a lot of instant gratification MMO on the market, and it's a game that's NOT for everyone.

Plenty of long time FFXI player, enjoyed FFXI because of the way it is: It's not instant gratification MMO, it doesn't hand you item and 1000 accomplishment after 2 weeks of playing, and it's not meant to be played for 3 months then quit for next MMO like other titles. It's meant to be a "2nd life" or "2nd home" where we log on and play the FFXI, just for the sake of play FFXI and live a life in it, instead of playing FFXI to beat it or to obtain best gears in very short time so we can quit and play next title.

It does have much slower pace than avg MMO that majority of current-gen players can't tolerate, that doesn't mean it's "bad". Majority of current-gen players probably can't tolerate EQ/SWG/UO and such, but it's not "bad", just different.

If you feel doing CoP BC or older content is a waste of time because you can watch youtube, then save yourself a sub fee, there's no point to even play this game if that's how you view it. It seems like you're playing this game like WoW, lv to cap, get best gear, beat shit, all happen in 3 months of playing. But that's not how FFXI works, and don't try to change to it WoW, SE already made FFXIV to satisfy FF fans wanting WoW clone MMO.

If you can only enjoy the game by having lv 99 job and best gears in every slot, quit now. You'll NEVER have best gears in every slot and so you'll never enjoy the game. I've been playing this game for 4+ years, daily. I've never have best gears in every slot once in my life, and I probably know 1~2 players per server that can have best gears in every slot for ONE job. You really need to change your mentality of playing this game, or else you simply won't enjoy it no matter what.

Edit: Watching CoP on youtube and skip it entirely, seriously?? Blasphemy! CoP used to be synonym of FFXI, now it's just a "watch youtube and skip it" missions.

[Crevox]

don't try to change to it WoW,

Too late. Item levels, gear progression, time gated content galore.

Also, I played DAoC back in the day. I'm not new to "classic MMO" style where things take a long time to get.

Please stop following me and spamming posts at me. It's turning into harassment.

[Afania]

Too late. Item levels, gear progression, time gated content galore.

Also, I played DAoC back in the day. I'm not new to "classic MMO" style where things take a long time to get.

Please stop following me and spamming posts at me. It's turning into harassment.

Last time I checked, FFXI server start hitting sub 1k during NA prime time right after ILV introduced, with fans starting riot on the forum, that's before ARR launch, so nothing to do with ARR. After that ILV haven't increase for nearly 1 year, and unlikely to increase after Feb update. Dev also introduce ILv for different reason, because they want to raise character lv above 99. They may have the intention to copy WoW at first but it didn't work too well so they changed plans ;D


Also if you don't want me to "harass" you(I don't even understand why presenting opposite opinion is harassment), stop making ridiculous opinion like "I can watch CoP on youtube, what a waste of time to do it". Technically that can apply to every single game on the market.

[Crevox]

that's before ARR launch, so nothing to do with ARR.

I never said anything about ARR. We were talking about WoW.

Item level system was made by Blizzard.

[Afania]

I never said anything about ARR. We were talking about WoW.

I know ILV came from WOW. I mentioned ARR launch because it's 1 major reason why sub dropped, besides SoA direction hate.

I was talking about how sub dropped because majority of FFXI players didn't like ILV. ARR launch is 1 reason why active player number dropped after Aug, ILV is another. You can tell by looking at how active player number dropped after ILV even before ARR launch, and how it continue to drop all the way until Nov post ARR launch, only to recently recover when Dev start moving away from WoW gear progressions. It haven't decrease for about 2 months when dev start moving away from vertical progression in Nov. That's probably the main reason why we kept getting reforge AF 1 2 3, and no delve 2 nor 119+ gear yet. Dev is probably observing player's reaction toward current direction, and don't want to push ILV higher too soon because of previous failure.

You said "too late, FFXI already moving toward WoW direction", but number shows that moving toward WoW direction doesn't help with sub, it drops faster. When dev try to move away from it active player stays. If dev is smart they wouldn't want to move toward WoW direction further. There's nothing "too late" about.

[Crevox]

I didn't even start talking about any of that...

...just... nevermind... go away

[cthullhu420]

I am sorry but if you dont have 1 friend left to help you quickly on such a mission, I dont see the point on why you are playing an MMO in the first place Oo. I also dont see why you didnt build up some connections with EU players or Eu Linkshells if you play in their timezone (gratned EU players are fewer then NA or JP)

The other solution would be to have a mule

I play cause love the game (I've played eq ,wow, ffxiv) and the amount of time I've put into this game. Made a lot of friends Na EU but they have long gone on to other things.(mind you they're internet friends and most didn't have a face to associate with their name so connections are lost over time).Mule please... I have never and will never support SE's shitty policy to have an alt character. They should have been free from the start on the same server as your main with a cap of 2 or pay to have it on a separate server. A mule wouldn't work cause you cant be logged into both at the same time to turn both keys. Dualboxing this game is not worth the 28$ a month for me.

[Afania]

I play cause love the game (I've played eq ,wow, ffxiv) and the amount of time I've put into this game. Made a lot of friends Na EU but they have long gone on to other things.(mind you they're internet friends and most didn't have a face to associate with their name so connections are lost over time).Mule please... I have never and will never support SE's shitty policy to have an alt character. They should have been free from the start on the same server as your main with a cap of 2 or pay to have it on a separate server. A mule wouldn't work cause you cant be logged into both at the same time to turn both keys. Dualboxing this game is not worth the 28$ a month for me.

Make more friends. People come and people go in MMO, just make more when old friends are gone.

I have tons of inactive players on my friendlist, but I also delete old one and add new names every once a while. That's the only way to get shit done without having a mule.

[Fatty]

I must admit I didn't read all of the thread, in fact I could only read a little before I could feel a strong urge to comment here.

Parts of the FFXI community is like poison to new players, or people with different opinions/experience. This is quite evident in this thread.

A lot of you sound like grumpy old men, bitterly repeating the glorious old days where you've done some incredible hard work, now preaching the kids to "suck it up", "back in my days.. we shouted for parties all night long for just one mission, only to see it fail once more"

"They should've FORCED people to have the +1 gear already" - Why? Do you know this is just a game? I feel so much bitterness behind words like this, and in some of the people of this community.

This type of bitterness and other negative attitudes are unfortunately not so uncommon. So much that it put me off from playing several times in the past. Luckily though, there are also great people here. Kind, helpful, understanding, welcoming people - not boiling with anger inside, hating every fresh opinion and people in general, and solely living in Vana'diel.

The game is not hard. You can accomplish anything in XI if you simply play enough (if you have enough time). Some of us don't, but still enjoy the game nevertheless, and we should be allowed to. This also makes you no superior than anyone else in this game, including newbies. Although I'm aware a lot of people derive their sense of self-worth from their status in this game. The good news is that your worth isn't based on the state of your gear.

I don't post much on the forums but I wanted to state my *opinion* here, if only to give support for new players or people like me - to state that we exist here in XI community too.

Putting my flame shield on, but I suggest that you don't waste time flaming anyone. Your time is better spent elsewhere and you know that.

[Ravenmore]

Franky they have removed so much of the grind already that leveling in ff11 is the fastest of all the MMOs out there and reforge gear is hardly the be all end all gear only slightly better then then other gear with a lower item level, even that depends on what slot and what action. One of the biggest complaints recently was people were running out of things to do so the devs made it this way so new and old(people that never bothered) players would have more to do. While a part of me feels they should have made +1 a requirement the rest of me is overjoyed they didn't, while the items to +1 were given away in the login campaign the coins were not. So the few limbus zones would have been a nightmare to get into and prices would have been far to much. We were going to get a road block one way or the other either it was going to be more item grinding for everyone or finishing a story line for those that haven't done it yet.

Really the only thing that makes 11 different from gear grinders is story(thanks to 14 can't even say "Final Fantasy" anymore). As far as just gear grinding there are tons of other games with better graphics, controls, UIs and free out there that just do that better.

[Olor]

I must admit I didn't read all of the thread, in fact I could only read a little before I could feel a strong urge to comment here.

Parts of the FFXI community is like poison to new players, or people with different opinions/experience. This is quite evident in this thread.

A lot of you sound like grumpy old men, bitterly repeating the glorious old days where you've done some incredible hard work, now preaching the kids to "suck it up", "back in my days.. we shouted for parties all night long for just one mission, only to see it fail once more"

"They should've FORCED people to have the +1 gear already" - Why? Do you know this is just a game? I feel so much bitterness behind words like this, and in some of the people of this community.

This type of bitterness and other negative attitudes are unfortunately not so uncommon. So much that it put me off from playing several times in the past. Luckily though, there are also great people here. Kind, helpful, understanding, welcoming people - not boiling with anger inside, hating every fresh opinion and people in general, and solely living in Vana'diel.

The game is not hard. You can accomplish anything in XI if you simply play enough (if you have enough time). Some of us don't, but still enjoy the game nevertheless, and we should be allowed to. .

Thanks. This is seriously how I feel.

And Ravenmore - I am *not* running out of things to do, and neither is anyone else who isn't done these missions. Never have I ever complained about "not having enough to do" - the people who do, by and large, are done these missions. Making people like me solo them instead of playing with my friends doesn't make the game better, it makes it worse.

Example: last night I helped my friends/LS mates get some voidwatch clears so they could unlock empy weapon skills. Yeah - they had to do something to unlock their WS - AND no, that isn't evidence that everyone should have to do totally unrelated content from 8 years ago to get today's armor.

Point is, I don't mind some small gating, especially when that gating is battle content. The problem with the missions is 95% of it is cut scenes. I'd rather help my friends get voidwatch clears than walk back and forth between NPCs. The game making me decide whether to bore myself to tears walking between cut scenes or miss out on a set of armor entirely... well that sucks.

[Ravenmore]

Again it is those CS that FF11 has left that sets it apart from every other cheap gear grinder and current reforge gear is not that great or must have now. Most of it is ok to good but not much of it is worth rushing out to get as well as nothing is stopping you from doing the current battle content to get the seals and doing it a little at a time. then unlike other battle content they even built in a way for when the rush has past to still collect the items needed to reforge your gear so again there is 0 rush.

Those fights are also NOT new and from the ZM/CoP era of the game just rehashed to increase the difficulty which at normal is about as hard as they were at 75. Take away the story and you're left with a outdated version of 14 since everything recently we have gotten has either been reused fights or straight copy of 14 systems. New skirmish gear is coming along with other new gear like reforged relic that will most likely be as good if not better except for a couple of macro pieces.

[Olor]

Again it is those CS that FF11 has left that sets it apart from every other cheap gear grinder and current reforge gear is not that great or must have now...

I want to reforge my armor not because it's the best but because I want to look like a BST again. See my signature. I want to wear that shirt again.

Also, everyone likes different things. I'm not asking SE to remove the cutscenes from the game, I'm asking to not be forced to watch them in order to do completely unrelated content that I would like to have access to. Sometimes (rarely) I am in the mood for doing some storyline, but that's very rare. Last night for example, was actually going to work on it, but then friends in the LS needed some help with an NM. Why is it so hard to understand that I would rather spend my time playing with other people than running between cut scenes? Why would the developers want people to have to NOT PLAY WITH THEIR FRIENDS if they want to access current content - it is insane.

[Lithera]

Because CoP is sooo CS heavy vs some other expansions though I will admit the go see Ulma and come back bits are eye rollers. Though it's not ToA where whole missions were just one quick CS followed by that damn jp midnight bs followed by go past stuff that will still agro a lv 99 to win a bcnm. With reforging of relic coming up are you going to complain that they are probably going to force people to do dynamis?

[Olor]

Because CoP is sooo CS heavy vs some other expansions though I will admit the go see Ulma and come back bits are eye rollers. Though it's not ToA where whole missions were just one quick CS followed by that damn jp midnight bs followed by go past stuff that will still agro a lv 99 to win a bcnm. With reforging of relic coming up are you going to complain that they are probably going to force people to do dynamis?

Dynamis is battle content. It's different. Also - maybe you have not done COP in a long time but 95% of it is cut scenes.

I have zero problem with needing to do battle content to get gear. I do have a problem with requiring SIGNIFICANT storyline progress to do battle content. Requiring stuff that takes an hour to do (like getting to mission 3 in conquest or whatever) is fine... requiring a full month of my playtime be spent soloing so I can utilize the rewards of battle content I currently have access to is moronic.

If I want a reward from doing the COP questline I should have to do COP 0- as it is the mission reward. If I want reforged relic, I should only have to do the battle content and the SPECIFIC QUESTS to get the base pieces. I'm not asking to have anything handed to me, I'm asking to not be roadblocked by something that is completely unrelated to the battle content/gear at issue.

[Ravenmore]

To do dyna you HAVE to have mission progression only difference is you have that and you don't have COP plain and simple. And it's is rank 6 to enter dyna not rank 3 which means running all over the world watching CSs or just running though annoying dungeons and other quest to get to the deeper parts of them. Even with limited play time it should take no more then a week at tops to do enough CoP to the point you can enter sea from starting at promys. We have VW warps now, faster movement speed along with HP warps so travel time is cut way down. SE invested a good bit of money into story lines in this game and the CSs and story have been praised over and over as a defining difference between WoW and its many clones. But SE did throw a huge bone in not needing +1 to do reforge so you only have to enter sea.

[Lithera]

Dynamis is battle content. It's different. Also - maybe you have not done COP in a long time but 95% of it is cut scenes.

I have zero problem with needing to do battle content to get gear. I do have a problem with requiring SIGNIFICANT storyline progress to do battle content. Requiring stuff that takes an hour to do (like getting to mission 3 in conquest or whatever) is fine... requiring a full month of my playtime be spent soloing so I can utilize the rewards of battle content I currently have access to is moronic.

Compared to WotG CoP is light in the CS department. Also concerning how long you have been playing you had time to already have this done when there were people still doing it. If you don't like playing a game's story line then why did you even start playing in the 1st place? Specially any game coming from a story heavy company like SE. Basically you would be fine with AF reforging if you had to +1 the item first then? As then the you would have the battle content that is linked to CoP have to be done. Or would you still be complaining?

[Lithera]

Ravenmore I guess we should be glad they can get the gear from non dreamland dynamis zones. Though by the time you reach sea that point is moot. Along with not having to do any RoZ to do dynamis. Could you imagine the rage there would be if you had to do the 1st expansion and get rank six just to enter dynamis? Lol