Delve fights

[Secondplanet]

I think SE really needs to address this in regards to either powering it down or make mini versions of Delve. Problem is that no one wants as DD unless you have the gear from the fights already and won't accept the eminence weapons/gear as viable for players. I've tried bard but all bards are expected to have 3-4song harp and the G-horn, So i've resorted to using my whm with capped cure pot% /sch the whole nine yards and still am refused cause they already have all their own whitemages.

Before anyone says why don't you do your own, I have tried many times and every time there is 1-2 people who go out of their way to screw it up for you at the last minute. Not to sound paranoid but some times i think people come along just to make the run fail. I've been on runs where tojil is down to 50% or less then one of the whitemages runs close or uses benediction for no reason and then the mage party wipes.

I even had the crack pot idea of an all Summoner group and it was going well and everything was going good then 1 summoner retreats their pet into the group of summoners and get most of us wiped cause the mob was on their avatar at the time. We could have done it cause the turtle was easy enough and the eft was easy but it was the 1-2 people who seemed hellbent on the fail or runs.

Just want to see if others are having the same problems with getting wins?

[Numquam]

Someone on Phoenix made an all SMN alliance with two PLD and won.

[Anjou]

I have to agree with the fact that the playerbase has gotten assinine with the requirements. How did we clear it before Oatixur came to be? Rygor, yet now "You got Rygor? Tough shit, we need Oats so gtfo" You don't need Oats to win a delve fight, you need a group of competent players, and frankly it fires me up when I see that kind of crap going on.

[Alhanelem]

and frankly it fires me up when I see that kind of crap going on. Uh, just saying, "fires up" usually means to get psyched up or excited, I think the phrase you are looking for is 'pissed off" or "grinds my gears" or what have you.

[Anjou]

Uh, just saying, "fires up" usually means to get psyched up or excited, I think the phrase you are looking for is 'pissed off" or "grinds my gears" or what have you.


Actually that can go either way, excitement also can mean anger, such as the bad stimuli excites my emotions and triggers anger.

[Feary]

LOL seriously? lower the difficulty? delve isthe most balanced content in game, when compared to difficulty and playerbase. Delve is perfectly fine where it is and isnt meant for everyone to win. nor is it made for ppl who win to have a 100% success rate.

stop being a diva. you cant win a battle doesnt mean its broken. the real issue is you cant handle the "dodgeball effect" and the social expects of the game. so you get picked last or dont even get consider. move on it wasnt your time and get better. this includes making your own parties to network and dealing with trial and error.

the players and party leaders who tell you no "lol rigors" earned their right because they have done the above. there is no reason to go back to higher chance of failure. at this point if you dont have oatixurs its more of a reflection of your ability as a player. and i;m not just talking about skill to punch and ws. or sing a rotation.

also its not always the case. i know i will take a lolmnk or unconventional job to tojil. help someone get the clear and/or experience. show there were they stand, and teach them where to go next. when i know the player is decent person and ability when my alliance can support the lack of damage/utility you cannot produce.

when ppl are not lazy and are willing to learn/perform they get opportunities. some thing as simple as networking on your server. and not degrading the system and ppl in it can go a really long way.

Those ppl who are telling you no, went thru the same difficulty and stress. its called trial and error. if you are seriously in a situation where you cannot see this its because you are being lazy and a diva. there is nothing wrong with losing. its part of the game. you just have to learn how to be able to being able find that group of competent players and win.

[Karah]

I have to agree with the fact that the playerbase has gotten assinine with the requirements. How did we clear it before Oatixur came to be? Rygor, yet now "You got Rygor? Tough shit, we need Oats so gtfo" You don't need Oats to win a delve fight, you need a group of competent players, and frankly it fires me up when I see that kind of crap going on.

You should take your trusts into delve then, oh that's right.

Only thing I wish they'd change is the time limit. (now)

[Secondplanet]

LOL seriously? lower the difficulty? delve isthe most balanced content in game, when compared to difficulty and playerbase. Delve is perfectly fine where it is and isnt meant for everyone to win. nor is it made for ppl who win to have a 100% success rate.

stop being a diva. you cant win a battle doesnt mean its broken. the real issue is you cant handle the "dodgeball effect" and the social expects of the game. so you get picked last or dont even get consider. move on it wasnt your time and get better. this includes making your own parties to network and dealing with trial and error.

the players and party leaders who tell you no "lol rigors" earned their right because they have done the above. there is no reason to go back to higher chance of failure. at this point if you dont have oatixurs its more of a reflection of your ability as a player. and i;m not just talking about skill to punch and ws. or sing a rotation.

also its not always the case. i know i will take a lolmnk or unconventional job to tojil. help someone get the clear and/or experience. show there were they stand, and teach them where to go next. when i know the player is decent person and ability when my alliance can support the lack of damage/utility you cannot produce.

when ppl are not lazy and are willing to learn/perform they get opportunities. some thing as simple as networking on your server. and not degrading the system and ppl in it can go a really long way.

Those ppl who are telling you no, went thru the same difficulty and stress. its called trial and error. if you are seriously in a situation where you cannot see this its because you are being lazy and a diva. there is nothing wrong with losing. its part of the game. you just have to learn how to be able to being able find that group of competent players and win.

How am i Lazy or being a Diva, I also stated that several times i've done this people have gone out of their way in the party to insure our failure. Like i said, we had a whm do benediction during a big part of the fight with tojil which pulled him into the mage party and wiped us out. I've seen people who were the main result of our failure go up and /em high fives or even mt with a say "that was easy" to other players in town after the failure like its a game to make others fail these.

I've been in groups with monks with oats and I only had my eminence gear and i wasn't only out damaging others who already had their oats and wins i was tanking the whole fight with taking minimum damage compared to them getting killed in 2-3 hits. During this fight we had it down to an art but then someone from the mage side came into the area and stole hate then ran back to the mages. Even after 3 provokes from the monks we were unable to get him back to us and he weakend the mages and all failed from there.

I'm not saying its broken but the player base is broken in itself. No body had oats to do these fights at the beginning and why is it such a strict requirement now? Also you saying not everyone will get one and its not for everyone to have is like saying that in the next update everyone without should just quit since everything that has come out since then requires you to have a i119 gear in order to get invited.

[detlef]

Your story is just weird. Benediction enmity is proportional to HP healed, so depending on the situation, your WHM either saved his PT or Benediction shouldn't have produced enough enmity to pull hate. Also, nobody should be tanking the whole fight. Hate should be bouncing around between the DDs. Under no circumstances should mages pull hate, ever. And you haven't even mentioned your stunners, which are usually the biggest culprit (and easiest to blame, generally).

Just reading your story, I get the impression that not only are your groups failing, you can't even properly identify why they are failing. That's the first step toward success.

[Feary]

How am i Lazy or being a Diva, I also stated that several times i've done this people have gone out of their way in the party to insure our failure. Like i said, we had a whm do benediction during a big part of the fight with tojil which pulled him into the mage party and wiped us out. I've seen people who were the main result of our failure go up and /em high fives or even mt with a say "that was easy" to other players in town after the failure like its a game to make others fail these.

I believe you are being a diva because you are posting/suggesting/demanding the content be change or eased. when you be learning how to better evaluate the player you choose and your methods in strategy. Based on the fact that you are having trouble defeating it with your methods.

i believe you are being lazy because the content isnt as strong/difficult as it was 8 months ago. Also, the playerbase isnt as weak as they were 8 months ago.

1. most players have notable gear. making that
2. most players have knowledge of strategy and whats expected of them in the strat.
3. most players have experience doing these fights. and know if its going to be a successful based on /check and the time it takes to kill 1-5 NM.
i.e. stunning, healing, and overall dps of each dd.

Hell as you mention, the addition of Eminence weapons even proves the point even more. this is how s.e choose to ease content. add weapons that are comparable in strength and easier to obtain.


I've been in groups with monks with oats and I only had my eminence gear and i wasn't only out damaging others who already had their oats and wins i was tanking the whole fight with taking minimum damage compared to them getting killed in 2-3 hits. During this fight we had it down to an art but then someone from the mage side came into the area and stole hate then ran back to the mages. Even after 3 provokes from the monks we were unable to get him back to us and he weakend the mages and all failed from there.

Eminence vs oat. at this point is irrelevant in relation to tojil. as you explained it depends on the players who join and their skill. of course there are alot of other factors that would effect dps. i.e stuns/weakness from lahar, buffs, etc etc

which all boils down to you picking the right ppl. namely this will only happen thru trial and error.

if someone(s) is really out to get you and your groups. then that is still your fault for having such a rep and inviting payers who are out to get you. know your enemies and learn how to better select ppl.


I'm not saying its broken but the player base is broken in itself. No body had oats to do these fights at the beginning and why is it such a strict requirement now? Also you saying not everyone will get one and its not for everyone to have is like saying that in the next update everyone without should just quit since everything that has come out since then requires you to have a i119 gear in order to get invited.

its strict because of the reasons you mentioned above. to prevent those mistakes and situations from happening.

what most ppl seem to forget is that. having oatixur shows you hit a milestone, have the ability to follow direction and have some idea what to do.



Your story is just weird. Benediction enmity is proportional to HP healed, so depending on the situation, your WHM either saved his PT or Benediction shouldn't have produced enough enmity to pull hate. Also, nobody should be tanking the whole fight. Hate should be bouncing around between the DDs. Under no circumstances should mages pull hate, ever. And you haven't even mentioned your stunners, which are usually the biggest culprit (and easiest to blame, generally).

Just reading your story, I get the impression that not only are your groups failing, you can't even properly identify why they are failing. That's the first step toward success.

i have to second this. i think you just dont know what exactly is going on and are focusing on the wrong thing.

[Vivivivi]

Someone on Phoenix made an all SMN alliance with two PLD and won.

^^^
I was lucky enough to join a group on Blue Mage last night as a wildcard of sorts– and held my own with the Oat. monks and 119 Relic DRKs in terms of damage. I was also able to AOE haste with animating wail, and help keep debuffs on.

I think delve is designed fine. Players just need to be open minded enough to try different strategies.

[Secondplanet]

I believe you are being a diva because you are posting/suggesting/demanding the content be change or eased. when you be learning how to better evaluate the player you choose and your methods in strategy. Based on the fact that you are having trouble defeating it with your methods.

i believe you are being lazy because the content isnt as strong/difficult as it was 8 months ago. Also, the playerbase isnt as weak as they were 8 months ago.

You aren't the first egotistical elitist I've dealt with on these boards before. Like normal people like you miss the point by miles by calling the OP a crybaby/QQ/or diva and your choice of words. I had to level my summoner solo when i couldn't get parties as a gimped whm back in the day, took me almost 6 months to get to 75, now someone can get it done in a day. I am not downtalking them as some sort of inferior person cause they took the easy or lazy way of doing the job, it will show in their skills when fighting. The problem is that you are expected to have oats and the eminence gear isn't accepted as a alternative like SE intended it to. Players are enforcing requirements that would make most returning players cancel on the spot cause of the whole chicken and the egg scenario.

Look at the stink relic and mythic owners made about the emp weapons when they came out, every page was filled with hate the people were taking the easy way and getting huge returns, now they are considered to be on par with them. What i would love to see is they make a 6man bcnm style fight vs. a nakuul for the same KI just no drops of them for the fight. Its also easier to find people who need the win to give it their all then to find people who will tag along not caring if they win or not since they got it.

[Trumpy]

what most ppl seem to forget is that. having oatixur shows you hit a milestone, have the ability to follow direction and have some idea what to do.

You seem to be forgettin that you cant hit said milestone or have the ability to show you can follow directions and have an idea of what to do if people wont let you join because you havent hit said milestone. I am not sayin you are wrong just there are many more angles on this than most people seem capable of seeing most times.

[Feary]

You aren't the first egotistical elitist I've dealt with on these boards before. Like normal people like you miss the point by miles by calling the OP a crybaby/QQ/or diva and your choice of words. I had to level my summoner solo when i couldn't get parties as a gimped whm back in the day, took me almost 6 months to get to 75, now someone can get it done in a day. I am not downtalking them as some sort of inferior person cause they took the easy or lazy way of doing the job, it will show in their skills when fighting. The problem is that you are expected to have oats and the eminence gear isn't accepted as a alternative like SE intended it to. Players are enforcing requirements that would make most returning players cancel on the spot cause of the whole chicken and the egg scenario.

Look at the stink relic and mythic owners made about the emp weapons when they came out, every page was filled with hate the people were taking the easy way and getting huge returns, now they are considered to be on par with them. What i would love to see is they make a 6man bcnm style fight vs. a nakuul for the same KI just no drops of them for the fight. Its also easier to find people who need the win to give it their all then to find people who will tag along not caring if they win or not since they got it.


lol egotistical elitist. me? lol nah. far from it. i've been playing this game since day one and have gone thru every single update and real hardship.
i know what a real douchebag and elitist it and most players today are not. what it comes down to is two ppl who dont listen to each other and who dont wnat to evaluate their own ideas. in fact, i disagree with most players who post asinine comments to players who are actually trying. however, i also hear what both sides are saying. fact of the matter is you need to try harder and they need to stop thier extreme judging.

you know nothing about me, and because i disagree with your demand for the content to be eased and ask that you try harder . i.e make better decisions. you want to brand me as an elitist. I'm not an "elitist", i just have a clue. i know how to manage the game mechanics and more important how to choose players with abilities. if you were listening to my original post you would know that I would take any person or job if they know how to play it. but only if and when its it not detrimental to the alliance.

you would also know that i said weapons are not longer a factor because of eminence gear. its about player skill and ability. i also show ppl the way, and help them play thier jobs in conventional strategies.

the real issue as to why you cant win loltojil is your ability to network and choose the right ppl to do the job.

as for your r.e.m comments. lol they didnt change anything. they are still all on the same plan/ linear tier. the difficulty is the same. its just a matter of what the player base wants to to do and how they want to work.

s.e ideology is that the playerbase would be still spaming salvage and vw for thier weapons like they do dynamis. s.e simply thinks that have given us enough reason to do it when they haven't.

yes mythic takes a more time to complete but more maybe by 2-3 months. which is why mythics are generally better/have a different utility.

however, ffxi has always been about the journey not just the reward. emps were added and did thier job. now they gave us delve weapons and roe weapons and pushed emps up on the the same difficulty as all r.e.m.

s.e assumed we would still be doing vw and salvage on the same level as we do dynamis for relic. however they are wrong, and hoping we get a clue. so they change the price of clusters to give more incentive along with lowering the salvage entry requirements.

if/when that doesnt work they will continue to shift it in our direction of what we expect it to be.

players get something in thier head of where they want the game to be and the game isnt what they thought it is or should be.

[Feary]

what most ppl seem to forget is that. having oatixur shows you hit a milestone, have the ability to follow direction and have some idea what to do.



You seem to be forgettin that you cant hit said milestone or have the ability to show you can follow directions and have an idea of what to do if people wont let you join because you havent hit said milestone. I am not sayin you are wrong just there are many more angles on this than most people seem capable of seeing most times.

i agree, they cant hit the milestone. however that is when i ask them other questions related to gear and strat.

8/10 times they havent done the leg work and dont plan to.

im just looking at it from a party leader perspective which most ppl seem to forget. not everyone is an elitist. they want to forget this aspect when they want to play the victim.

when you see multiple players who fail at their job and at the strat, it becomes simple assumptions. like no oat no invite.

8 months into delve if you are a serious monk and dont have at least oatixurs or eminent h2h with apporiate af2 augments skirmish gear etc. you have an issue.

[Doombringer]

how is this still an issue, really? i mean... even i got my first delve clears back before ilvl was even a thing. add power creep and delve is almost easy. when i go now i don't think "oh man am i gonna be able to do my part" it's really "oh man i hope nobody fucks up and wastes my time"

cuz that's it now. the only way to fail is for somebody to fuck up...

so as a leader your responsibility is to ensure minimal fuckups by recruiting people who know what they're doing. ideally people who have done it before. you see where this is going right?

i agree that a tojil run could win with eminent H2H on its monks, but i'll probably never use one. there are enough oatixur monks out there that i don't NEED to, and making delve easier won't change that. unless the event becomes so easy as to be a literal free win, people are going to bring the best group they can. it would be downright stupid not to?


my suggestion to anyone having trouble breaking into delve is, the next time someone asks if you have oatixurs (or whatever random benchmark weapon, i'm gonna aim this at mnks) instead of saying "no" and shuffling off muttering "elitist" under your breath, say "no, but..."

-then tell them about how good your TP set is.

-how much dex you have in your shijin spiral set.

-how you have SO much str and crit stats in your victory smite set.

-how you can cap pdt while maintaining haste and acc in your hybrid set (just in case) but that you know not to fulltime that pdt set because if you don't actually NEED the pdt it's still just holding you back.

-mention how you have all the job specific pieces that augment the critical job abilities so on etc.

make a case that you know what you're doing in spite of not having that particular arbitrary benchmark. hell, if you did THAT i might take your monk over mine even though i have oats. and if you CAN'T make that case, then maybe that should tell you something?

hell, i got my first clears by explaining to a guy who "demanded" RDMs have 500 enfeebling skill that: even though i didn't have 500 enfeebling skill, if you consider magic accuracy (particularly in slots where it competes with enfeebling magic skill) i actually had better land rates on my spells than the "go to" 500 skill build.

[Zarchery]

I just don't bother with Delve. What's the point anyway? To get a weapon so that... people will let you do Delve? Seems circular to me.

I dunno about this cookie cutter setup thing with Delve. I did several of them just because I wanted a Delve win to upgrade my Spharai. We never won. We either wiped or ran out of time. I think the reason parties are so cookie cutter is because when you're cobbling together a bunch of strangers, you can't rely on their skills or team work abilities (you don't them well enough) so you have to do the next best thing and go for standardized gear and job configurations.

[Trumpy]

problem is the "standardized gear" is the BoS items you get from said content. I totally get what you guys are saying, it just is frustrating for the people without the gear. Its like a repeating record though this topic, and it will prolly not stop gettin brought up til there is even better BoS gear, which will have its own repeating record.

[Ravenmore]

I just don't bother with Delve. What's the point anyway? To get a weapon so that... people will let you do Delve? Seems circular to me.

I dunno about this cookie cutter setup thing with Delve. I did several of them just because I wanted a Delve win to upgrade my Spharai. We never won. We either wiped or ran out of time. I think the reason parties are so cookie cutter is because when you're cobbling together a bunch of strangers, you can't rely on their skills or team work abilities (you don't them well enough) so you have to do the next best thing and go for standardized gear and job configurations.

The simple reason is it is faster to assume that if they have a delve boss weapon they are good and the leaders don't have the time to question or get a feel of the player so even if the RoE weapon user might have better gear and skills the leader won't have the time to talk to them while having to deal with all the other tell/party/LS chat they have to keep straight.

I have seen many "perfect" set ups and many "not perfect" set ups win. What I have seen doom some of the perfect set ups that were made by pick up groups was not brd/cor swapping cause people on BG said you don't need too. Sure you don't need to if you go with a group of people that have been working together for a long time but for pick up randoms swapping is a must to cover the short comings of the weak, lesser skilled/gear players that only thing they have going for them is they have boss weapons they bought/leeched. After that the next big failing is schs and whms not performing at the level needed to win. Schs and whms are the most important jobs in delve nothing will cause a fail faster then a sch that can't stun in time and whms that can't keep up with healing and stat removal(though the DDs really should carry remedies but we know how that goes).

[svengalis]

Your story is just weird. Benediction enmity is proportional to HP healed, so depending on the situation, your WHM either saved his PT or Benediction shouldn't have produced enough enmity to pull hate. Also, nobody should be tanking the whole fight. Hate should be bouncing around between the DDs. Under no circumstances should mages pull hate, ever. And you haven't even mentioned your stunners, which are usually the biggest culprit (and easiest to blame, generally).

Just reading your story, I get the impression that not only are your groups failing, you can't even properly identify why they are failing. That's the first step toward success.

The reason for failure can be different each run

[Trumpy]

I have a bee win so far (I only joined the run hoping for moth/gnat kill not knowing they beaded those NMs out but we got a unexpected win). Pretty much every other run has been doomed at the boss pull. Something or other has always happened, whether its a sleepga on the pull, a miss stun, a bad positioning. Last night Toji sleepga'd on pull and proceeded to breakga over and over, I dont think i have even noticed that breakga spell in that fight ever. granted im a geo in the back so i am not hit by these things usually. I have had 2-3 fights where we got it to 6%, and one shark out of maybe 3 that got to 6% (all of these were before skirmish armors came out, I didnt play or at least do much delve at all since then because bout then FF14 came out and the LS i was doing with that kept gettin closer just completely died to FFXIVanitus). 6% seems to be my magic number so far.

[detlef]

The reason for failure can be different each runSure, but did you read what he wrote? I don't think he even knows what really went wrong on those runs.

[Rwolf]

I think Delve is fine and the content difficulty is appropriate for what it is. Eminent weapons, combat and magic accuracy skill changes, etc have already contributed to making it easier. It can be difficult if you don't have a linkshell of good players to fall back on. That means to either make one, join one, or roll a gamble with a PUG being frustrating. Which you can continue to set them up and pick out people who are good. Make a LS for it or just keep track of names, establish rapport. I've struggled with Tojil runs and I've still yet to get any boss wins myself due to my luck with PUG groups and trying to lead ones with casual shells. I still think it's a fair system because I know with more effort it's obtainable.

The only thing I'd wish they change is giving these bosses TP moves that absolutely need to be stunned. Instead of doing them having conditions to do these crippling moves (like HP%, time in, after another TP move, debuffs on, buffs on, etc.) they can spam the hell out of it. It's not strategic and it's artificial difficulty in my opinion. I'd like to see Delve boss fights open up to more strategy than stunlocking (avoiding the move in the case of all SMN alliance mentioned). Because if you have great stuns, there is really no reason you should lose if your people aren't asleep at the wheel. Which just seems lame to be so dependent on that. Which isn't players fault, the effect of the moves and the time limit you're given you'd have to.

[Alhanelem]

what most ppl seem to forget is that. having oatixur shows you hit a milestone, have the ability to follow direction and have some idea what to do.Actually I find that it shows more that you simply have friends in high places. Each person is but one part of an 18 man alliance and there are perfectly competent people out there that either have a hard time finding a group to run with at all and/or are forced to join pugs that usually fail because whoever organized it doesn't really know what to do and not necessarily because oneself was the reason for faliure.

Not having Oats or w/e super power weapon is hot at any given time isn't an indication that a player is bad.

[Karah]

Actually I find that it shows more that you simply have friends in high places. Each person is but one part of an 18 man alliance and there are perfectly competent people out there that either have a hard time finding a group to run with at all and/or are forced to join pugs that usually fail because whoever organized it doesn't really know what to do and not necessarily because oneself was the reason for faliure.

Not having Oats or w/e super power weapon is hot at any given time isn't an indication that a player is bad.

Mostly true, typically the people who have the best are the worst players, Oatixur specifically lol. Terribad players all have oatixur.

[Stompa]

Agree totally with the last two posts. You really notice how good a player is when s/he has crappy gear and is playing at a challenging level. And having mega uber gear hides some of a bad player's failings but you can still see through the cracks.

[Secondplanet]

I think Delve is fine and the content difficulty is appropriate for what it is. Eminent weapons, combat and magic accuracy skill changes, etc have already contributed to making it easier. It can be difficult if you don't have a linkshell of good players to fall back on. That means to either make one, join one, or roll a gamble with a PUG being frustrating. Which you can continue to set them up and pick out people who are good. Make a LS for it or just keep track of names, establish rapport. I've struggled with Tojil runs and I've still yet to get any boss wins myself due to my luck with PUG groups and trying to lead ones with casual shells. I still think it's a fair system because I know with more effort it's obtainable.

The only thing I'd wish they change is giving these bosses TP moves that absolutely need to be stunned. Instead of doing them having conditions to do these crippling moves (like HP%, time in, after another TP move, debuffs on, buffs on, etc.) they can spam the hell out of it. It's not strategic and it's artificial difficulty in my opinion. I'd like to see Delve boss fights open up to more strategy than stunlocking (avoiding the move in the case of all SMN alliance mentioned). Because if you have great stuns, there is really no reason you should lose if your people aren't asleep at the wheel. Which just seems lame to be so dependent on that. Which isn't players fault, the effect of the moves and the time limit you're given you'd have to.

That is why i loved the Voidwatch fights, there was a knack behind the fights with proc'ing and then fighting etc... every job needed (almost) and it was fun. I agree to much about artificial difficulty in this game, they went on and nerf'd perfect defense saying that people were abusing it instead of using a strategy then they make bosses with stupid abilities that need stunning, WOW SUCH A STRATEGY.

[Damane]

That is why i loved the Voidwatch fights, there was a knack behind the fights with proc'ing and then fighting etc... every job needed (almost) and it was fun. I agree to much about artificial difficulty in this game, they went on and nerf'd perfect defense saying that people were abusing it instead of using a strategy then they make bosses with stupid abilities that need stunning, WOW SUCH A STRATEGY.

delve boss AoEs are nowhere near as powerfull as legion AoEs were back then... seriously. Melees can survive them if they have equipment sets for them or their whms do their jobs with eraseing def down. Yes they are not preferable to deal with, but they are in no way NOT survivable like Legion AoE moves were. They are managable.

[Afania]

I've joined quite a bit of fail delve pt just to see how they fail, 95% of PUG delve fail because leader's delve leading skill is terrible. I can usually tell whether this PUG is gonna fail or not before we even start just by observing how leaders lead their PUG and how they interact with their members.

It is possible to fail even with amazing leading skill if 1 person make an unexpectable mistake, but having better delve leading skill makes failure happen a lot less often.

Leading event is a skill, and it takes a lot of effort/research to master, probably more so than getting great gears to play your job, but most ppl ignore it and don't view it as an important playing skill in FFXI, when PUG fails everyone blames other ppl, then ppl go "I don't want to play with PUG anymore" "This WHM is terrible" and so on. But in reality, plenty of those issues can be avoided with better leading skill.

[Trumpy]

I have been seeing a few people lately that after a fail, it becomes the blame game and then they say, "I rather solo stun then work with that sch again!" and this is after 1 fail. not even giving them the chance to be better and improve. Luckily none of these runs went past the fail so there was no chance to redo but seems kind of like a bad attitude. Or they just get really super harsh on the person and its like "hey man we jsut spent 5 hours waiting for another sch please stop tryin to anger him into leaving." Its all about tact and learning not jsut throw away the problems.

[Feary]

delve boss AoEs are nowhere near as powerfull as legion AoEs were back then... seriously. Melees can survive them if they have equipment sets for them or their whms do their jobs with eraseing def down. Yes they are not preferable to deal with, but they are in no way NOT survivable like Legion AoE moves were. They are managable.

lol. agreed. Damane Legion is/was more difficult then delve at release and would win you regardless of how far were progress or how well of player you were.

delve is about gimmicks and learning how to solve them. ie. matamata dakuwaqa mastop etc. dealing and not dealing types of damage at certain times.. positioning and learning how to cure effectively. etc

legion was/is about your alliance over powering large nms in succession who could one shot you at any tp move. there is no gimmick there just stun what you can and kill the best way you know how. among many other things.

of course now it may not be that hard and easier to manage these days because we have must higher dps and much more defensive gear. ie. DEF magic evasion and pdt.

so please dont compare content when the only thing similar is that seem difficult and unattainable to you.
they are two different two beasts.


Actually I find that it shows more that you simply have friends in high places. Each person is but one part of an 18 man alliance and there are perfectly competent people out there that either have a hard time finding a group to run with at all and/or are forced to join pugs that usually fail because whoever organized it doesn't really know what to do and not necessarily because oneself was the reason for faliure.

Not having Oats or w/e super power weapon is hot at any given time isn't an indication that a player is bad.

that isnt true. the high places in this game are arbitrary. you willing to be open minded or not.

from my personal situation i was in a linkshell full of real elitist douches, they had been play and winning endgame content since hnm days of serket and sky. i mean real selfish who didnt help anyone and judged everything that wasnt themselves. who would fight and argue over the most smallest things. leadership also had standards that were outdated by at least 5 years. a real mess. could we kill delve content if members would work together and not for themselves. yes. however that was not going to happen.

looking from the outside looking in yeah you can say i knew high ppl in high places but it didnt matter. its about leadership of all, attitude and willingness to learn.

in the linkshell it us 8months to get 3 zone wins. the linkshell then folded that day and ppl moved on.

i took the ppl who were the linkshell who generally sucked or were considered the bad eggs in the linkshell and i worked with them and showed them how to win at delve.

now we beat all 3 nms at least 3 times a week. is it perfect? no. do we have the best of the best. no. the difference is i believe in the players no matter how bad them seems and challenge them to do/be better. i also translated what they needed to do and what was expected of them. once they knew what to gear they were missing and why and how to kill the nms. we went out and learned the zone by trial and error. it took 3 months to win all 3 nm on a consistent basis because we needed more ppl and need to learn too. however, we had much more sucess with ppl who were at very best mediocre.

so when say to you secondplanet trumpy etc. delve is not that hard. i mean it. and im not saying out of my ass.

maybe its your servers? i dont know. i hear all the time how pug fail. i mean i pick ppl up all the time when needed. i dont have that much of an issue with them and if so their are ways to compensate.

[Xantavia]

I've joined quite a bit of fail delve pt just to see how they fail, 95% of PUG delve fail because leader's delve leading skill is terrible. I can usually tell whether this PUG is gonna fail or not before we even start just by observing how leaders lead their PUG and how they interact with their members.
This is the other part of the problem people have with getting wins. Somebody without the gear can't get in a group, and it seems that a common response is to build your own group. So then you have people with no first-hand experience of the event trying to coordinate 18 people. It is an ugly cycle that relies on the playerbase to break out of by taking a chance on bringing a newer player with them.

[Feary]

This is the other part of the problem people have with getting wins. Somebody without the gear can't get in a group, and it seems that a common response is to build your own group. So then you have people with no first-hand experience of the event trying to coordinate 18 people. It is an ugly cycle that relies on the playerbase to break out of by taking a chance on bringing a newer player with them.

if you know how to play the game i.e play your job while manipulating game mechanics and simiple reading of bgwiki would suffice. you dont need first hand experience to know where to stand. how to change to pdt gear, use curaga 2-3 and accession, or even stun.

coordinating 18ppl do their jobs niche isnt hard or doesnt takes much preparation. it ppl who know how to play thier game and ppl who are patient effort to teach/learn. only first being able to identify what you are doing wrong and right. to start with.

some times that even means going back to the drawing board on your job(s) and macros.

[Xantavia]

if you know how to play the game i.e play your job while manipulating game mechanics and simiple reading of bgwiki would suffice. you dont need first hand experience to know where to stand. how to change to pdt gear, use curaga 2-3 and accession, or even stun.
This is a starting point for me, but personally reading any strategies isn't nearly as effective as just getting in there and doing it. I have always learned better once I can get my hands dirty, no matter what it is, in a game or out of it. A guide might say "When X happens, do Y". I know that is what I should do, it is what I most likely will do, but until I put it into practice it won't be real yet.

I have done almost no 18-man content so it might be a big difference from a 6 man battle. You mention doing your niche job correctly, but most co-ordinated battlefields I've done (mostly as blu) I'm always looking out for doing damage, trying to stun any nasty moves, and provide additional healing when needed.

[Trumpy]

Your mentioning of using curagas reminds me of one of the fail groups i went with. It was specifically mentioned several times that whm will need to use curagas for a a particular NM and every whm was like ok. it was also mentioned that this or that NM has an aura of paralyze or whatever and everyone is like ok. But yet nearly every time there is at least 1 DD constantly askin for paralyna, or the one run 2 of the WHM didnt use curagas at all, which was amazing cause even jsut before we pulled it it was mentioned like 3 times. Even during the fight whm mentioned by name were told they should curaga and they still wouldnt. Sometimes i feel like people listen to the planning or strats and then just refuse and wonder why the fuck they cant ever win these things. We beat the nm but it wasted a ton of time and a few people died, it was such a fail when it could have been easy.

And thats just an example from delve, I have seen this same crap else where and its jsut ridiculous.

[Afania]

I have been seeing a few people lately that after a fail, it becomes the blame game and then they say, "I rather solo stun then work with that sch again!" and this is after 1 fail. not even giving them the chance to be better and improve. Luckily none of these runs went past the fail so there was no chance to redo but seems kind of like a bad attitude. Or they just get really super harsh on the person and its like "hey man we jsut spent 5 hours waiting for another sch please stop tryin to anger him into leaving." Its all about tact and learning not jsut throw away the problems.



This is the other part of the problem people have with getting wins. Somebody without the gear can't get in a group, and it seems that a common response is to build your own group. So then you have people with no first-hand experience of the event trying to coordinate 18 people. It is an ugly cycle that relies on the playerbase to break out of by taking a chance on bringing a newer player with them.

As I said before, leadership skills. Of course 18 players with no previous experience and an inexperience leader has very high chance to fail. Most of the groups who cleared delve before skill update wiped several times too.

The difference is that, successful group has trust and usually are more willing to tolerate the mistakes, and avg PUG usually has no trust nor buy-in, if 1 person fail then it'd become a blame game.

I've been building event groups for years since VW, legion, delve, NNI, new salvage and now AA VD, and been doing research about how to do successful event. I've noticed whether a group has trust or not affects performance the most, more than gear/skill level of each indiviual member. A group with no trust but perfect gear in every slot has lower success rate because it'd become a blame game if 1 person makes mistake, with a very intentse party atmosphere, in such environment ppl tend to make mistake more easily.

On the other hand, a group of trusted friends can tolerate the mistake more, play in a more relaxed mood and make less mistakes. Even if their gear/skill are subpar, they tend to have higher performance.

Thus good leadership skill include better communication and ability to build trust between each members.

A lot of LS cleared delve before skill update failed many times, made silly mistakes, tried over and over again. But LS like this usually trust each member's ability, thus they can gain experience together and get clear. Getting clear is really just the matter of finding 17 ppl wanting to do this together, not afraid of failing, tolerate each other's mistakes and eventually you'd get better performance in delve event.

And it requires good leadership skill to build a group like this, IMO.

Remember, world first/server firsts groups also start with 0 experience. No matter how inexperienced you are, you can't be less experienced than world first/server first groups. At least you have a guide.

[Secondplanet]

if you know how to play the game i.e play your job while manipulating game mechanics and simiple reading of bgwiki would suffice. you dont need first hand experience to know where to stand. how to change to pdt gear, use curaga 2-3 and accession, or even stun.

coordinating 18ppl do their jobs niche isnt hard or doesnt takes much preparation. it ppl who know how to play thier game and ppl who are patient effort to teach/learn. only first being able to identify what you are doing wrong and right. to start with.

some times that even means going back to the drawing board on your job(s) and macros.

Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

[Damane]

Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

you do know protectra V has a fixed duration... 30 min, the only way it wore off before 30 min is if it got dispelled ¬.¬. Your protectra V line makes no sense

[Renaissance2K]

I haven't messed around with Delve as much as some people in this thread, but I think chemistry between the leader and the other people in the alliance is probably the biggest hurdle to be overcome with Delve. The fights seemed designed to mess specifically with people that just want to load up on buffs and punch the thing in the face until it dies. What a winning alliance needs is a leader that's willing to go over the fight in a reasonable amount of detail, coupled with players that are willing to do a little impromptu research to fill in the gaps.

So, if you decide to organize a run, and the only strategy or advice you offer to the group is "melees use sushi" and "BLU should equip Warm-Up," then you shouldn't be surprised when things don't go very well.

In terms of mechanics, as somebody with no clears and therefore no big items, the only thing I'd like to see changed with the Delve system is some incentive to kill the bosses more than once. It's easy enough to farm Plasm once you have the key items, especially now with Records of Eminence, but right now, it's particularly difficult to get a run going if you missed out on the initial rush when Adoulin was released.

[Feary]

This is a starting point for me, but personally reading any strategies isn't nearly as effective as just getting in there and doing it. I have always learned better once I can get my hands dirty, no matter what it is, in a game or out of it. A guide might say "When X happens, do Y". I know that is what I should do, it is what I most likely will do, but until I put it into practice it won't be real yet.

I have done almost no 18-man content so it might be a big difference from a 6 man battle. You mention doing your niche job correctly, but most co-ordinated battlefields I've done (mostly as blu) I'm always looking out for doing damage, trying to stun any nasty moves, and provide additional healing when needed.

um yes you can understand from reading, stop selling yourself short and being ok with mediocrity. you cant be that dense. of course doing it over and over will get rid of the jitters and nerves. however to say you cant follow guide without trying it is poppycock. ppl do it every day on every fight. in a 6 12 or 18 man group if someone tells you what the strat is you should know how your job fits in that strat. if anything is unclear you ask and you get feedback after.

as a blu who is doing their research, you would know how importance of Absolute terror and setting DD job traits in delve. Your niche is in Bee and shark zones.

knowing that stunning isnt your job. keeping yourself alive and helping maybe remove status ailments is a bonus. however at the end of the day you are there to Do Damage with requiescat and terrorize NMs like scorpion, Mastop, etc.



Your mentioning of using curagas reminds me of one of the fail groups i went with. It was specifically mentioned several times that whm will need to use curagas for a a particular NM and every whm was like ok. it was also mentioned that this or that NM has an aura of paralyze or whatever and everyone is like ok. But yet nearly every time there is at least 1 DD constantly askin for paralyna, or the one run 2 of the WHM didnt use curagas at all, which was amazing cause even jsut before we pulled it it was mentioned like 3 times. Even during the fight whm mentioned by name were told they should curaga and they still wouldnt. Sometimes i feel like people listen to the planning or strats and then just refuse and wonder why the fuck they cant ever win these things. We beat the nm but it wasted a ton of time and a few people died, it was such a fail when it could have been easy.

And thats just an example from delve, I have seen this same crap else where and its jsut ridiculous.

Again that is just bad selection of players. if the whm doesnt want to listen to leadership then that is a problem and he needs to go. if DDs dont have remedies and the whm cant accession/paralyna/stona on tojil runs then they needs step up or go. Stop bitching and learn how to trust and play with each other. also learn how to ignore ppl, PUG will bitch about everything they think is remotely right. which i fine to be dumb and if they are in my group i tell them to in the most kindly of /tells that that is not tolerated. the alliance is never going to be perfect players. ppl are going miss shit. get over it. as a leader you need to convey what CANNOT BE Missed and what has to be done.


Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

What you also arent getting is a good leader would of kicked those idiots until they knew what was up from down. why would any leader include players who are blatantly detrimental to the alliance?

I ran dynamis myself, and the only thing you can take and apply to delve are leadership skills. Those skills are basically what afania said.

i mean Secondplanet, seriously these are the experiences that lead you to conclude S.E content is too hard and needs to be eased?

also

you do know protectra V has a fixed duration... 30 min, the only way it wore off before 30 min is if it got dispelled ¬.¬. Your protectra V line makes no sense

[Trumpy]

You seem to think i am mad about the WHMs and DD i spoke of. I am more amazed that when you have a group that should be able to win you dont because of people who either dont seem to have their heads in it, which makes you wonder why they joined up in the first place, or cant follow the simplest of instructions. Sometimes the whm will be like "I cant keep all their HPs up!" well that is why we said use curagas ect... And when these kinds of things happen you pretty much know you are done cause PUGs rarely stick for another go at it like a group based on a linkshell will tend to retry.

[Numquam]

You seem to think i am mad about the WHMs and DD i spoke of. I am more amazed that when you have a group that should be able to win you dont because of people who either dont seem to have their heads in it, which makes you wonder why they joined up in the first place, or cant follow the simplest of instructions. Sometimes the whm will be like "I cant keep all their HPs up!" well that is why we said use curagas ect... And when these kinds of things happen you pretty much know you are done cause PUGs rarely stick for another go at it like a group based on a linkshell will tend to retry.

I run around on my crappy COR in Delve and see a lot of DD's lacking PDT and MDT sets. Sometimes WHMs can't keep HP up because of squishy DD. :(

[detlef]

The OP doesn't know who to blame for his failed runs or even why he failed. Just reading his accounts of what happened, you can see contradictions and made-up deficiencies. How can you ask for an easier fight when you don't even know why the current version is too hard for you?

Also, you know those fail WHMs you keep bringing up? They'll still be there to mess up your 6-man fight.

[Feary]

You seem to think i am mad about the WHMs and DD i spoke of. I am more amazed that when you have a group that should be able to win you dont because of people who either dont seem to have their heads in it, which makes you wonder why they joined up in the first place, or cant follow the simplest of instructions. Sometimes the whm will be like "I cant keep all their HPs up!" well that is why we said use curagas ect... And when these kinds of things happen you pretty much know you are done cause PUGs rarely stick for another go at it like a group based on a linkshell will tend to retry.

no, i dont think you are mad about the players you spoke of.

"people who either dont seem to have their heads in it,"

these are useless players you shouldnt stress about and/or avoid at all cost.

avoid doesn't necessarily run away like they are a plague. since you rely on PUGs, you need to join them and likely hood they would be in it. its means do what ever necessary to communicate with them to figure out if they are or can be worth you time.

cant follow the simplest of instructions. Sometimes the whm will be like "I cant keep all their HPs up!" well that is why we said use curagas ect...

not even worth your time.

And when these kinds of things happen you pretty much know you are done cause PUGs rarely stick for another go at it like a group based on a linkshell will tend to retry.

you can still network with those who have a clue/ are capable, network and you will get a decent group together.

i did many pugs before i had an intention of having a my own delve linkshell. Those pugs were successful. in fact on my server most pugs i did won.

[Afania]

Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

You have a pretty narrow POV toward what a good leader is. A good leader is more than knowing what to do in an event. A good leader would be able to help every member improve their performance, and attract talented ppl to work for them.

If I'm going to build a linkshell and find someone not playing right, I'd just tell them where to find the resource to improve and give suggestion on how to improve. That's the job of a leader. If someone make a mistake, great. Don't make mistake next time and it's as simple as that.

Ppl who make a LS, have members make mistake and still make same mistake after 5 more event, I wouldn't call it a good leader because nobody is improving under his/her leadership. You either kick ppl that continue to make same mistake over and over, or help ppl fix the mistake. That's the job of a leader.

[Oakrest]

LOL seriously? lower the difficulty? delve isthe most balanced content in game, when compared to difficulty and playerbase. Delve is perfectly fine where it is and isnt meant for everyone to win. nor is it made for ppl who win to have a 100% success rate.

stop being a diva. you cant win a battle doesnt mean its broken. the real issue is you cant handle the "dodgeball effect" and the social expects of the game. so you get picked last or dont even get consider. move on it wasnt your time and get better. this includes making your own parties to network and dealing with trial and error.

the players and party leaders who tell you no "lol rigors" earned their right because they have done the above. there is no reason to go back to higher chance of failure. at this point if you dont have oatixurs its more of a reflection of your ability as a player. and i;m not just talking about skill to punch and ws. or sing a rotation.

also its not always the case. i know i will take a lolmnk or unconventional job to tojil. help someone get the clear and/or experience. show there were they stand, and teach them where to go next. when i know the player is decent person and ability when my alliance can support the lack of damage/utility you cannot produce.

when ppl are not lazy and are willing to learn/perform they get opportunities. some thing as simple as networking on your server. and not degrading the system and ppl in it can go a really long way.

Those ppl who are telling you no, went thru the same difficulty and stress. its called trial and error. if you are seriously in a situation where you cannot see this its because you are being lazy and a diva. there is nothing wrong with losing. its part of the game. you just have to learn how to be able to being able find that group of competent players and win.

Your response is so bad.

[Oakrest]

Actually I find that it shows more that you simply have friends in high places. Each person is but one part of an 18 man alliance and there are perfectly competent people out there that either have a hard time finding a group to run with at all and/or are forced to join pugs that usually fail because whoever organized it doesn't really know what to do and not necessarily because oneself was the reason for faliure.

Not having Oats or w/e super power weapon is hot at any given time isn't an indication that a player is bad.

This might be the most competent thing you've said on these forums. I can't believe I'm hitting 'Like' on one of Alhanelem's posts :)

[Feary]

Your response is so bad.

how? grammatical? or you just like my point of view?

[Feary]

Actually I find that it shows more that you simply have friends in high places. Each person is but one part of an 18 man alliance and there are perfectly competent people out there that either have a hard time finding a group to run with at all and/or are forced to join pugs that usually fail because whoever organized it doesn't really know what to do and not necessarily because oneself was the reason for faliure.

Not having Oats or w/e super power weapon is hot at any given time isn't an indication that a player is bad.

by high places you mean high abilities , do you mean high ability to communicate and high job skill?