Cait Sith / Atomos

[Secondplanet]

I know their is tons of boards about this but one thing that is bugging me. Its been what is it almost 3 years now since the announcement of Cait Sith and Atomos and SE keeps pushing it off to the side. But with these Trust NPC's they can pump out 3-5 every update no problem.....

You can see where i'm coming from with this. Cait Sith was used in a battle in WotG so their move sets were already done so what is the problem implementing this?

Also i think the Nakuuls should be made into new summons for us, we deserve it after being shafted this hard.

[Garota]

Thanks for the false sense of hope and your unfulfilled promisses. :)

[Draylo]

I could see atomos being kind of decent now that the other options aren't that great. His duration would have to be long and a very potent effect. I could see +200 every stat drain being quite nice for 3 DD lol.

[Camate]

Greetings,

The development team is currently working on Cait Sith to be implemented in the March version update. I apologize for such a long wait, and once we have additional information to share we will be sure to do so.

Atomos will come a little while after.

[Draylo]

What, is that for real!

[Rwolf]

What, is that for real!

I know right. I'm excited yet I'm defensively waiting for the other shoe to drop. I think I'll be genuinely excited when they put it in the update previews of March.

[Karbuncle]

Hey guys whats goi...


Greetings,


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Us9Pp_na3Q/T750HAScVkI/AAAAAAAABO4/t8-egObGIQY/s1600/guy-opening-door.gif

CAIT SITH AND ATOMOS FINALLY COMING?

I expected SMNs to be dead, buried, and undead (hehe FFXIV reference) by the time these guys came out :O, so excited for our new probably decoratively useless toys. :3

[Mnejing]

Please do another video, because the last one was quite silly.

[Imakun]

This makes baby Altana smile.

Also, their animations and effect better look like Avatar.

[Cabalabob]

I'll believe it when I see it...

[MakkotoParinne]

I'm very excited to see Cait Sith and Atomos being implemented soon! Eagerly awaiting the March update! :D

[Lithera]

Squeeeeeee!!! Yes I need another teaser vid

[Edyth]

Greetings,

The development team is currently working on Cait Sith to be implemented in the March version update. I apologize for such a long wait, and once we have additional information to share we will be sure to do so.

Atomos will come a little while after.

I knew with the awesomeness you guys have been pumping out the past few months that this would be soon :)

[Glamdring]

Greetings,

The development team is currently working on Cait Sith to be implemented in the March version update. I apologize for such a long wait, and once we have additional information to share we will be sure to do so.

Atomos will come a little while after.

wow, only 3 years, I thought you guys had determined to use the timetable you used for blinking and healers. Well, there goes my cash in the betting pool...

[Darkdragongers]

yay :D what next new avatar Seekers of Adoulin? maybe would Siren :D

[FaeQueenCory]

Greetings,

The development team is currently working on Cait Sith to be implemented in the March version update. I apologize for such a long wait, and once we have additional information to share we will be sure to do so.

Atomos will come a little while after.
0_0
Lies!
...
I mean...
...
It HAS to be lies right?
It's... it's just been SO long... without a word.... MARCH!?
>_>
that's less than 30 days....
Oh sweet Lord Babyjesus!
Cait Sith....
FINALLY She'll be implemented!
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Annalise]

March 2015 update, guys.

[Demonjustin]

The Cait is a lie.

Ya know, Portal reference that had to be made.

[Teraniku]

If I use Cait Sith as a Summoner does that make me a Nekomancer? :)

[Raydeus]

March 2015 update, guys.

I lol'd. XD


But considering recent developments I'm thinking it's ok to believe. =P

[Kafrein]

That's cool! In response to the first post though, it's not just a simple case of making the summon they need to create the quests as well, which involves writing etc as it would be more closely connected to the WoTG storyline.

[Brightshadow]

I'm really excited that cait sith is coming soon; however, instead of SE giving us another useless SP avatar like Atomos they should just make Alexander & Odin into regular avatars especially due to the prerequisites to obtain them.

[Zeargi]

I just want the last 3 someday... Phoenix, Atomos, and Bahamut

[Lithera]

Can't have the bird as it's tied to tenzen's sword. Atmos is supposed to be coming sometime and I doubt we would get bahamut just because of how he is in the game.

[Mirage]

Yes because making a storyline where you extracted phoenix from his sword would be impossible

[Draylo]

Can't have the bird as it's tied to tenzen's sword. Atmos is supposed to be coming sometime and I doubt we would get bahamut just because of how he is in the game.

Tired old argument. They can do whatever they want to introduce these avatars... Bahamut can pretty be one shotted now, how is he so superior anymore?

[Zeargi]

Can't have the bird as it's tied to tenzen's sword. Atmos is supposed to be coming sometime and I doubt we would get bahamut just because of how he is in the game.

Yeah, with the introduction of WotG, they have the means to bring the Phoenix in anyway, as it is. They've already established there are alternate realities with Abyssea and the plot of WotG. And Bahamut would be a 1hr Avatar, Just as Alexander and Odin are, although I'd prefer him not to be, because the PLD-ish aspect of Bahamut would be really nice.

[Lithera]

If I remember right Phoenix at least in our version of the world had no body to speak of due to something happening to it or whatever and thus had to be bound to the sword or it wouldn't exist anymore in our world. I know bahamut would be a 1hr but that wasn't my point. He just doesn't seem like he would be willing to become our partner because of his personality. I mean sure diablos isn't a ray if sunshine but at least agreeing to a pact with us allows him to get out of his prison. Also who says at least Phoenix would exist in the other time lines since our time line seems to be the best out come of the three different time lines. WotG goes south at the end of the crystal war and Odin seems to be pulling a lot of the strings in that time line. Also we know the empty was already a huge problem in the Far East by the time we get to CoP in our time line. Probably is much worse there in WotG. I am just saying lore wise it just doesn't seem really probable to get these two who will probably would be both 1hrs that don't even come close to the power of what we all know they would be able to unleash.

[Rwolf]

I think people need a recap on the History of Vana'diel (http://users.neko-sentai.com/viena/history/start.htm) so they understand that both avatars from a story perspective is entirely logical. Will summarize for anyone who doesn't want to follow the link and read it all.

SPOILER ALERT: Reveals parts of the storylines in Rise of the Zilart and Chains of Promathia.

Bahamut

Back before the 5 races, was the Ku'luu and Zilart. The Zilart were obsessed with power, particularly the Jeuno brothers and tried to open the gate to Paradise using the cermet crags we still see all over Vana'diel. The Ku'luu and the Dawnmaidens (powerful Zilartian priestesses who cared about Altana's will more than anything) secretly teamed up to stop the Jeuno bros from opening the gate to Paradise.

When they opened the gateway, all the terrestial avatars awoken. The terrestial avatars roles given by Altana was to protect the 5 mothercrystals and protect Vana'diel. Lead by Bahamut; Carbuncle, Diabolos, Phoenix and Fenrir fought against the Zilart to close the gate and stop Vana'diel from being destroyed in the process. At Fei'Yin (which was the control center of all the crags), they sabotaged it by overloading it. Sending a massive surge of powers that almost destroyed the world but certainly wiped out most of the Zilart and Ku'luu.

The destruction was massive, you can still see it to this day on Qufim island, also in Batallia along the coast where all the trees are blown and crystals are formed all over it. The northlands which was a green lush land was now barren, cold, and can also see the explosion scars along the coast. Bahamut was pissed at the result, and determined to lead the terrestial avatars to wiping out the remaining life in a twisted way of thinking this is the only way to protect Vana'diel and the mothercrystals.

A Ku'luu boy, Sel'theus, made a pact with Bahamut that if anything should threaten Vana'diel again he would help Bahamut bring the end of all human-esque life on Vana'diel. I guess he had powerful "talk no jutsu" because Bahamut backed down and the terrestial avatars left.

Much later when you encounter Bahamut in Riverne during CoP, he has come back because the emptiness threatens Vana'diel. At this point he's pretty sick of hearing how humanity will clean their own mess up given what happened last time. Bahamut takes it upon himself to deal with the pact he made. Seeing humanity as too weak to do anything, flawed and corrupted by Promathia (who gave each of the 5 races a huge flaw to their personalities). After encountering Bahamut a few times, he continues to fight humanity, but if you read the cutscenes he is impressed at how they keep managing their own against his minions and himself.

How to Summon Bahamut story-wise: You never see Bahamut after the end of CoP storywise and it's well within his personality to make a pact again after seeing just how far humanity will go to save Vana'diel, which is the only reason he does what he does.

Phoenix

Phoenix is the fiery bird of resurrection. Somehow during the battle to stop the Ku'luu she dies and loses her body. She ends up resurrected intangibly as her flames in the Far East, worshiped there as a deity and her flames sealed inside of a katana. Every soul the katana claims serves to uphold Phoenix's lifeforce.

Knowing this, when people in Tenzen's homeland started falling prey in to the Emptiness spreading in the Far East, they were sacrificed in Phoenix's name, hoping it would resurrect her. Tenzen takes the Phoenix Blade to the main lands to get help from the Jeuno bros in order to stop the emptiness.

Later in the storyline, Phoenix expends all her energy stored so far to fend off an attack from Bahamut. Weakened to the point of death, and all life returns to the mothercrystal, she runs into Sel'theus who is standing at the mothercrystal and he asks he she will just be absorbed and reborn. She merges with him instead in order to help take down Promathia. As she is a terrestial avatar and just like Bahamut, she wants to protect Vana'diel. Sel'theus vows to stay in Al'taieu and watch over Vana'diel.

How to summon Phoenix story-wise: There is nothing saying that Phoenix can't leave Sel'theus. She merged with him because she knew his soul would rejuvenate her enough to provide him with power to stop Promathia. Phoenix never swore to stay in Al'Taieu, that was Sel'theus' promise to some how make up for making a pact with Bahamut to end all life on Vana'diel. Also we have no idea how long it takes Phoenix to resurrect to full or what actually will do it. But we do get hints that it is possible. Phoenix, like all the other terrestial avatars is capable at full power is sharing a portion of her power with others. All we would need storywise to make her happen is to introduce how Phoenix can resurrect herself and make it happen in a quest or Far East expansion.

[Lithera]

It's called a lot of death for Phoenix. That and I'm not sure if she can be unbound from Sel'theus without harming him. It's one thing to unbind her from an unliving object and another to do with a living person. If we did get bahamut I still think it would be a begrudged pact. I mean come on he might be starting to be impressed with the five races but do you really think he won't try another time to kill you all plan again instead of going ok let's work together through a pact. He isn't very trusting and I wouldn't be either if some eternal boy couldn't hold up his end of a pact what is to say someone of the five races will?

[Rwolf]

It's called a lot of death for Phoenix.

There is no proof in the current storyline to support that. It is only theory based on the Phoenix Blade gaining power from lost life. Gaining power does not automatically mean restoration of life. Also Phoenix decided not to return to the mothercrystal to be reborn, so we have no idea what would happen if she did.


That and I'm not sure if she can be unbound from Sel'theus without harming him. It's one thing to unbind her from an unliving object and another to do with a living person.

We have no idea how Phoenix joined herself to Sel'theus. There is no point in the story that says Phoenix is bound to Sel'theus. We just assume that because they are combined and as with other storylines, not all fusions are permanent. Square-Enix has lots of room to work in a Phoenix storyline. They haven't painted themselves in a corner as you're making it out to be where it's impossible from a lore perspective. All of this is player speculation, not story related fact.


If we did get bahamut I still think it would be a begrudged pact. I mean come on he might be starting to be impressed with the five races but do you really think he won't try another time to kill you all plan again instead of going ok let's work together through a pact. He isn't very trusting and I wouldn't be either if some eternal boy couldn't hold up his end of a pact what is to say someone of the five races will?

If Bahamut was completely untrusting of humanity in the way you are saying, he would have continued to destroy humanity to save Vana'diel, not stop after Phoenix countered against him on the Airship and certainly wouldn't have stopped after fighting him in the Quest, Storms of Fate. Which is the last story related Bahamut fight. After you beat Bahamut he says the following:


You have delayed mankind's extinction yet again... An age is a mere flicker to a wyrm. However, enough flickers united form a star. Children of Vana'diel. Unite and form a future in which mankind can survive.

Then Bahamut gives you his whisper which is a fragment of his power just like all the other avatars, only difference is you can't choose to apply that power to Summoning magic. I don't think it would be a begrudged pact, because someone who completely distrusts your motivations and capabilities wouldn't attempt to motive you, give you a portion of his power and stop trying to destroy the world which he could have easily done.

[FaeQueenCory]

Don't forget that Phoenix... like seemingly all the false "gods" when you think about it... except Diabolos and Bahamut... is a fragmentary being.


Carbuncle: Shattered his crystal to spead the "rubies" to world so that he can make people into summoners so he can try and wake the real gods so that when they awaken the platonic perfect world will reemerge... Carbuncle really is the most evil being in this game.
Fenrir: Doesn't have a crystal "sleeping form"... and hence why he is dead and dying. This is why Carbuncle has the player "recharge" Fenrir's life with power from the real gods.
Diabolos: not fragmentary... he also is GFTO by using his "escape pod" universe he created: Dynamis.
Bahamut: not fragmentary like Diabolos... He's just being mean flying around and wanting to kill everyone... Can't imagine why Diabolos would want to leave this world...
Phoenix: like Carbuncle, only we are given no explanation for why or how her crystal was shattered... BUT we are told a fragment of it exists within Tenzen's blade... and he DOES imply that her crystal shard can be reawoken through the use of life sacrifice... BUT the life-force that was residing in that crystal shard is now in Selh'teus...

Basically, there is 0 reason why Phoenix could never become a summon.
She, like Carbuncle, is a fragmentary being and has shards of her crystal all around the world.
Just like Carbuncle's Ruby... there is no reason why they player could not find a shard of Phoenix and charge it to gain the ability to summon her.
It's no different than charging Carbuncle's Ruby with the diffuse energy of the real gods. (ie the weather energy)
Or reviving/recharging Fenrir's lifeforce with the direct energy of the real gods.

We have to remember that these beings are not real divinities.
They are just platonic ideal Forms that exist by chance in our imperfect world.
Carbuncle is *just* a rarab. (they have the same attack pattern, check it out)
Fenrir is *just* a wolf.
Diabolos is *just* a kindred.
Bahamut is *just* a dragon.
Phoenix is *just* a bird.
They only appear to be special to us... because they are "perfect ideal forms of what the pale shadow imitations we know directly are".

[Darkdragongers]

What about a Siren avatar on Seekers of Adoulin?

[Pawlie]

Phoenix would make a cool weapon skill for summoners only. He was in Tenzens sword after..

As for Siren... isn't this the concept art for FFXI? Whats it about?

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/7/7d/Adoulin_Monster_5.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/7/7d/Adoulin_Monster_5.jpg

[Draylo]

Yeah that is the concept art. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to avatar conclusions though. Look at what they do to Ixion, Cerberus, Bismark etc. I wish they wouldn't though, but admittedly I never was a fan for Siren tbh lol.

[Rwolf]

The Terrestial avatars are more than existing by chance. They were tasked by Altana long ago to protect the mothercrystals and by proxy, Vana'diel. Because the Mothercrystals together is the one true crystal at the beginning cutscene.I completely forgot about Fenrir's resurrection, solidifying that Terrestial Avatars can be reborn. If Fenrir can, the fiery bird of resurrection surely can.

Carbuncle though, isn't evil. He believes that Vana'diel's salvation is through cooperation with the Gods. The newer beings working with the older beings to form a new world. He does want to awaken the celestial avatars eventually but knows very well that the "sleeping gods" are not ready for this change immediately. In the quest, "Waking the Beast" Carbuncle actually tries to stop you from fully resurrecting them and bending to their will. The "6 sleeping gods" have been trapped in slumber since they were made into gods, and each of them still thinks the world is as it was when they were made into avatars. Carbuncle says this in the end:


You were never meant to submit to the will of the sleeping gods. And I will never lose my faith in the children of Vana'diel. Even those ancient beings will one day learn the great truth from mortals.

He doesn't want the celestial avatars to take over, he wants them to learn from humanity that the world is not how it was when they were created.

[Brightshadow]

Fenrir is no longer dead, if you play the Windurst storyline you see the Star Sibyl bring back Fenrir by wishing him back when see regains a portion of her power from the joker. Phoenix would have been a better choice than Cait Sith; however, since Square Enix never added any lore of Phoenix in WOTG they would have to create a storyline quest or we would have to wait till we go to the far east.

[FaeQueenCory]

The Terrestial avatars are more than existing by chance. They were tasked by Altana long ago to protect the mothercrystals and by proxy, Vana'diel. Because the Mothercrystals together is the one true crystal at the beginning cutscene.I completely forgot about Fenrir's resurrection, solidifying that Terrestial Avatars can be reborn. If Fenrir can, the fiery bird of resurrection surely can.

Carbuncle though, isn't evil. He believes that Vana'diel's salvation is through cooperation with the Gods. The newer beings working with the older beings to form a new world. He does want to awaken the celestial avatars eventually but knows very well that the "sleeping gods" are not ready for this change immediately. In the quest, "Waking the Beast" Carbuncle actually tries to stop you from fully resurrecting them and bending to their will. The "6 sleeping gods" have been trapped in slumber since they were made into gods, and each of them still thinks the world is as it was when they were made into avatars. Carbuncle says this in the end:

He doesn't want the celestial avatars to take over, he wants them to learn from humanity that the world is not how it was when they were created.
Um.... no.
Why would anyone think he wants the gods to take over? He wants to revive them from their sleeping state... because he thinks if they wake up, then the Perfect World gets reformed, and humanity won't be reabsorbed into Promathia... this.... was kinda the ENTIRE POINT of CoP.
"Hey, remember how the Zilart bros wanted to 'open the gates of paradise' and remake the perfect world where everyone got to be a god?"
"uh... yeah? why didn't we do that? that sounded awesome."
"Cause if they did, it would have woken up Promathia and we all would get to be a god.... 's liver!"
"ew.... that's not what the Zilart promised..."

Carbuncle hoped to recreate the perfect world without Promathia... But, because he's just a rabbit... and NOT A REAL GOD... he doesn't comprehend the fact that remaking The Mothercrystal would result in the same thing as the Zilart Princes tried to do.
That's why Phoenix flipped her shit over him for doing something so suicidal.
That's more reason why Diabolos is GFTO.

The Mothercrystal Recreation plan "Gates of Paradise" was twarted by Altana (who grew to love these little imperfect beings just as much as her dead lover/twin), her physical presence: The Dawn Maidens, and the even less perfect Kuluu.
Though to be fair... the Kuluu seemed more "let's rise up against the masters" rather than actual "they are gonna kill us all" as Altana and the Dawn Maidens knew would happen.
And the Kuluu enlisted the help of Fenrir for... whatever that operation they did with him entailed. (wouldn't THAT have been a cool CS... all we get is the aftermath CS...)
But the false gods of the world are NOT divine agents of Altana.
They are leftovers.
The only beings who have ever been agents of Altana have been two groups/beings:
1) The Dawn Maidens - The Zilartian women who can literally hear the thoughts of Altana through the training of the whisper of the soul... their leader was Yve'noile... Not only the leader of the Dawn Maidens, but also the Zilartian Princess. (which I need to point out... Vanadiel needs to be run by the princesses... all the other leaders in Vanadiel are bad leaders for whatever reason... but the princesses have consistently been super awesome... though there's only two. -haven't done Adoulin yet-)
2) The Caits/Cait Sith - She is the Tears of Altana... so... she's kinda Altana's direct children? So... Cait Sith is a real god? She's not a "terrestrial Avatar" because she only came into being during the shadowreign era... bajillions of years after the Perfect World was destroyed.
(And as if the "organized religion is wrong" message wasn't strong enough... RotZ brought us that the "Gates of Paradise" is actually a FAR plot to remake the former Perfect World... not some Heaven ideal. CoP brought with us the revelation that the racist teachings of the Church that the 5 races are "tears of Altana" is BS, they're former Zilart and Kuluu who were magically mutagenized from the fallout from the sabotage of the Gates of Paradise fiasco... just like ALL humanoids are... beastmen included. And then WotG brought us "oh, you thought that YOU were the 'tears of Altana'?? Sorry... apparently Altana cries kitties.")

The false gods are just that: false.
They aren't protectors... not unless we pact them to be, ala Fenrir.
They are no different from you or I or anyone else... Some want to restore the Perfect World (Carbuncle, which I, and Phoenix AND Diabolos, qualify as evil because bad things will happen to the imperfect beings in a perfect world, remember evil =/= bad... not unless you're 3.), some want to blow up all the Zilartian descendants (Bahamut), and some just want to chill and/or have fun/adventures (Diabolos and Phoenix)... the only difference is that they are perfect beings in an imperfect world... So they look like gods to us... but then, we look like gods to ants.

(It really helps to be well versed in Platonic thought when discussing the metaphysics of systems derived from that school of Philosophy. Though if Plato and his Forms aren't your cup of tea, Gnostic Christianity can also suffice since there is so much overlap between the two. And if you want to be entertained with your learning... you can always watch Lesbians and Roses Revolutionary Girl Utena.)


Fenrir is no longer dead, if you play the Windurst storyline you see the Star Sibyl bring back Fenrir by wishing him back when see regains a portion of her power from the joker. Phoenix would have been a better choice than Cait Sith; however, since Square Enix never added any lore of Phoenix in WOTG they would have to create a storyline quest or we would have to wait till we go to the far east.
Actually.... Fenrir is "dead and dreaming".
Always.
What the Star Sibyl did was just to revive the fountain... which is serving as Fenrir's "home crystal"... because for whatever reason, Fenrir either never came with one, or his was lost at some indeterminate point.
Either way, he resides within the Full Moon Fountain. But he was not revived thanks to the Star Sibyl's prayers, just the light was returned to the Fountain.
I think the best way to look at all the false gods and especially Fenrir, is like the "gods" of HP Lovecraft. (not the Outer Gods... the other "gods" Cthulhu is the best well known... but there's other entities.)
Fenrir is "dead and dreaming." He's not actually dead the way you or I would envision death... because he is a higher dimensional entity, hence why he appears as a god to us. He is a leftover from the Perfect World. And as such, can't truly die... mostly.
He CAN die... just... it's a LOT harder with the stuff within this imperfect world than if the world was perfect again.
And so his "dead but dreaming" state is similar to a dead phone. Or better, an older iPhone. iPhones hold their charge... very poorly to say the least. And Fenrir is similar, in order to be awake (which in this case is synonymous with alive) he must be constantly recharged via the direct powers of the real gods.
Of course, the analogy isn't 100%, because it's an analogy. And the most that would happen to him if Carbuncle and summoners stopped bringing him whispers is that he's just go to sleep forever... unlike an iPhone that will eventually stop carrying a charge all together and has diminishing returns after each charging...
but then... both of these things are, again, due to him being a perfect being.

As for Phoenix... it's simple: find "Phoenix's Ruby", charge it somehow, have some CSs, gain Phoenix summon. Given her fragmentary nature... yeah. She'd have to be a 2hr-only smn. (which I guess would deal mega fire damage and apply arise/rr3 to everyone? eh... the devs can figure something out.)

[Brightshadow]

Phoenix doesn't have to be a 2HR only avatar because we manifest a small portion of the avatars power with our own lifeforce, and reviving her is quite simple just add some type of phoenix emerald and make us recharge it, then fight her to be able to summon her. Shes somewhat similar to alexander because she has lost her physical form.

[Brightshadow]

But what im really more interested about since this is a Cait Sith and Atomos thread, what type of avatars are they since its never really explained in the storyline, just seems weird to have Cait Sith become an avatar without an explanation.

[Lithera]

Cait is like Altana's eyes and ears sort of and the main thing for them is to make sure the gate(s) between alt time lines dun get re-open. Though with abyssea they can't do it alone and so they need a certain moogle king and our help. To me void watch and abyssea are tied in that the abyssea timeline is trying to melt into our timeline much like how the empty did. Since basically it still is since we fubared something up when fighting promvinion.

Atoms not sure what he does or how he really works but he eats the unwanted bits of timelines I guess. Not really sure where he falls in the who he is doing that for game if he isn't just doing it for fun. Though if I remember right Cait said to him to stop it because Altana wouldn't want him to be sucking up our timeline but he was too busy eating to hear. If he was a sin he would be gluttony. Not sure what comes out the other end or if he just up chucks new stuff or what. I kind if think we get "eaten" by him every time we go into abyssea or to the past.

[Rwolf]

LOL, FaeQueenCory. You went on a huge tangent there, I think there's some misunderstanding. When you stated Carbuncle is the most evil being there is, you said and I quote:


Carbuncle: Shattered his crystal to spead the "rubies" to world so that he can make people into summoners so he can try and wake the real gods so that when they awaken the platonic perfect world will reemerge... Carbuncle really is the most evil being in this game.

Implying that Carbuncle had this insidious plan of making Summoners to try and wake the real gods into this world based on Platonism. There is nothing that suggests Carbuncle believes in Platonism or has some insidious plan, if so provide some proof in the actual text of the game versus theory.


Um.... no. Why would anyone think he wants the gods to take over?

Umm... I don't know why. You are the one implying that Carbuncle has this plan of awakening some gods (still not mentioned who) who are going to emerge with this Platonism believed world. That is the definition of "taking over". Unless you're leaving out that these gods are planning to just ask everyone nicely.


He wants to revive them from their sleeping state... because he thinks if they wake up, then the Perfect World gets reformed, and humanity won't be reabsorbed into Promathia... this.... was kinda the ENTIRE POINT of CoP.
"Hey, remember how the Zilart bros wanted to 'open the gates of paradise' and remake the perfect world where everyone got to be a god?"
"uh... yeah? why didn't we do that? that sounded awesome."
"Cause if they did, it would have woken up Promathia and we all would get to be a god.... 's liver!"
"ew.... that's not what the Zilart promised..."
Carbuncle hoped to recreate the perfect world without Promathia... But, because he's just a rabbit... and NOT A REAL GOD... he doesn't comprehend the fact that remaking The Mothercrystal would result in the same thing as the Zilart Princes tried to do.
That's why Phoenix flipped her shit over him for doing something so suicidal.
That's more reason why Diabolos is GFTO.

Lot of personal opinions and fanfiction on the story. Quotes of unofficial text. Perfect World reformed? Opening the Gates of Paradise makes everyone a god? Carbuncle wants to remake the one true crystal? Phoenix flipped her shit on Carbuncle? Where is this in the game?


But the false gods of the world are NOT divine agents of Altana.
They are leftovers.

When a person dies, their soul is sent to rejoin the nearest mothercrystal. Phoenix is literally the reaper as she has the ability to control this process. Sorry, but the fact she is allowed to have such a purpose in what is nothing short of a grand design and the fact that the Terrestial avatars have only interfered with humanity opening the Gate of the Gods leads me to employment by Altana. Otherwise they wouldn't have let a lot of tragic things happen if they were simply doing whatever they want including a very pivotal event in Seekers of Adoulin involving a tree (most I'm saying given the fact it's new and you haven't done it yet).


The false gods are just that: false.

I'm not sure where I said they were real gods... Hmmm...


They aren't protectors... not unless we pact them to be, ala Fenrir.
They are no different from you or I or anyone else...

5 Terrestial Avatars, 5 Mothercrystals. Phoenix manipulating what goes in and out of the crystals. Diabolos literally sitting on the mothercrystal, Vahzl in Pso'Xja. Every word every one of them has said speaks about nothing but defending Vana'diel's existence. If they aren't protecting anything at all, you need to qualify that with something actually in the game or it's simply "I think/believe X happens".


Some want to restore the Perfect World (Carbuncle, which I, and Phoenix AND Diabolos, qualify as evil because bad things will happen to the imperfect beings in a perfect world, remember evil =/= bad... not unless you're 3.), some want to blow up all the Zilartian descendants (Bahamut), and some just want to chill and/or have fun/adventures (Diabolos and Phoenix)... the only difference is that they are perfect beings in an imperfect world... So they look like gods to us... but then, we look like gods to ants.

And obviously doesn't know the definition of evil.


e·vil ˈēvəl/ adjective 1. profoundly immoral and malevolent. Synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;


(It really helps to be well versed in Platonic thought when discussing the metaphysics of systems derived from that school of Philosophy.

And now I know why you're pushing Platonism onto Carbuncle.

[Brightshadow]

Cait is like Altana's eyes and ears sort of and the main thing for them is to make sure the gate(s) between alt time lines dun get re-open. Though with abyssea they can't do it alone and so they need a certain moogle king and our help. To me void watch and abyssea are tied in that the abyssea timeline is trying to melt into our timeline much like how the empty did. Since basically it still is since we fubared something up when fighting promvinion.

Atoms not sure what he does or how he really works but he eats the unwanted bits of timelines I guess. Not really sure where he falls in the who he is doing that for game if he isn't just doing it for fun. Though if I remember right Cait said to him to stop it because Altana wouldn't want him to be sucking up our timeline but he was too busy eating to hear. If he was a sin he would be gluttony. Not sure what comes out the other end or if he just up chucks new stuff or what. I kind if think we get "eaten" by him every time we go into abyssea or to the past.

That still doesn't explain how Cait Sith and Atomos are avatars, in the lore of cop we find out that there are two categories of avatars the terrestrial and celestial, and for the celestial beings we know there are 8 because each one is associated with an element, as for the terrestrial beings we know there are only only 5 because they protect the mothercrystals. So these two avatars are a new category that we have no information about.

[Lithera]

We'll Atmos doesn't talk at least not in a way we understand. I can't remember if Cait or someone else calls them an avatar or not. Also a little fuzzy if one of the spite wardens calls Cait one or not or if the bad Cait calls themselves it. Though Atmos is at least summoned by Lady Lilith to eat what is left of lilliset in front of us. I guess they are part of the Odin Alexander group of other.

[Brightshadow]

We'll Atmos doesn't talk at least not in a way we understand. I can't remember if Cait or someone else calls them an avatar or not. Also a little fuzzy if one of the spite wardens calls Cait one or not or if the bad Cait calls themselves it. Though Atmos is at least summoned by Lady Lilith to eat what is left of lilliset in front of us. I guess they are part of the Odin Alexander group of other.

Odin and Alexander are not random avatars they are the Celestial Guardians of light and dark, which are in the stars of vana'diel. Atomos and Cait Sith cannot be neither Celestial nor Terrestrial unless SE decides to make them forgotten Terrestrial avatars; however, then that would bring up the question why aren't they defending any mothercrystals. The best thing SE could do is introduce them into a new category of avatars without giving us any hint of what the other avatars in that category are.

[Lithera]

We'll they guard the gates between timelines. Since Cait at the end of WotG they choose to guard the gate between our time line and where the spite wardens came from. Atmos eats unwanted time lines so I guess they are avatars of time and space?

[Imakun]

I don't think Cait Sith and Atomos need to necessarily fit into a category just because we have a name for the other avatars. Wasn't Cait Sith created by Altana's will? I guess that could make it a Divine Avatar or something.
Atomos might be called the Avatar of Time and that's it.
We also have the obvious Avatar from Adoulin still lurking behind the scenes. What would you call that then when the time comes? :P

[Shinzaku]

Just because there are 5 Mothercrystals doesn't mean there has to be one avatar per crystal, so I think Cait and Atomos could fit as Terrestial Avatars. Where do we get most game lore? From in-game characters and information. In that sense of perspective, they don't necessarily know everything.

[Zeargi]

Okay. This Will Contain More Spoilers


First off, The Terrestrial Avatars don't have a protocrystal, they are beings bathed in the light of Altana and converted into their current form. Most of them protect the crystals because they don't want the Gates to Paradise to open again, because it means they revert back to normal.

Fenrir: He died at the end of the Crystal War, Killing with him Karaha-Baruha. The reason that Fenrir dies it this is a 'Perfect Summoning,' where we the players only summon a fragment. But if you play in Windy, you'll know that Karaha had a Cardian - "Joker" which lead another group of cardians made by Zonpa-Zippa. When Fenrir Dies it also kills Joker because their life force is linked to there Master, Karaha-Baruha. Moving to Carbuncle for a moment, He shatters his ruby and scatters the shards across Vana'diel to spy on the world and look for potential pawns. He devised a plan to revive Fenrir, using would be summoners to siphon off the energy of the "Sleeping Gods" and pour it into the Full Moon Fountain. But he has to be careful because waking the ALL Gods, ends his current life, and he wants to keep his job. (Not evil, but not 100% good either). Now, back in Windy the S.o.Bs. Revive Joker, which is a big no-no because in doing so revives the Master, Karaha-Baruha, But he's already merged with Fenrir, so the beings now share a disfigured form as the Bearer of Darkness. At the end of the Missions: Fenrir is separated from Karaha and now returns to the Full Moon Fountain, but with the loss of the Diza Star, Fenrir's visions are lost to the people of Windurst as the Star Sibyl can't perform the Moon and Star's Reading.

Now, The reason I say this, is because the exact same thing is happening to Phoenix. The only difference is that She willing merged with a lesser being to preserve her life. She also is close to one of the Mothercrystals, which she has bathed in it's light since the end of CoP.

This is a Theory:
Shinryu is "Promathia" formed from the the defeat of player and Selh'teus now fused with the Phoenix, Which I believe was originally part of him to begin with; likewise Carbuncle, Diabolos, Bahamut, Fenrir. With no one to stop him now, Promathia sets forth and defeats each of his parts, Carbuncle Prime, Bahamut Prime, Diabolos Prime, and Fenrir Prime. Now merged together, he transforms back into his original form, which is Shinryu. Which shatters the other crystals of the Sleeping Gods and allows them to Walk across Abyssea. Diabolos and Carbuncle have already divided themselves as it is (Dynamis being prof that this is possible, as well as they are the ONLY terrestrial avatar you meet that allows you contact a Non-Prime version.) so their shards still roam unaffected by the change. The merger of the Mothercrystals back to the Great Crystal is in process, and hasn't been completed yet, so Shinryu, returns to Al'Taieu and waits for it to be completed so he once again begin his task of bringing the world to the end so it can be re-born. After all in order to "save his life" and prevent him from having to die, Altana Shattered the crystal. I assume, she shattered it as his soul was entering the Crystal, because when things die their life force is draw to the crystal. Shattering the crystal with his soul inside, caused the cycle of death and re-born to be broken and with the latest world being the final world, Vana'diel. But the world was imperfect because the divine force that governed it had also been broken, which gave birth to the 5 terrestrial avatars. Meaning that Promathia's 'body' in Al'Taieu was nothing more than a Husk moving with the leftover rage, cowardice, evny, apathy, and arrogance he cursed the children of Vana'diel with.

[Rwolf]

I don't get the whole passing off theory as fact. If there's no story-related official in-game, Vana'diel tribune or otherwise mention from SE, it is not fact and not something to attempt to be corrected. You can't say you're all wrong, this is how it is. You can say this is the theory you believe and back it up with why you believe that is. I can recognize that Terrestial avatars being guardians of the mothercrystals is not fact. It is a sound theory.

FACT: Phoenix controls the natural passage of life and death to and from the mothercrystals including herself.
FACT: There are 5 Terrestial Avatars who have guarded Vana'diel at least since the time of the Zilart/Ku'luu, albeit in their own individual ways of how Vana'diel should be saved.
FACT: The Terrestial Avatars by proxy protect the mothercrystals because it will end life on Vana'diel.
FACT: The Terrestial Avatars are not gods, they are mortal beasts who can die.
FACT: Terrestial Avatars can be ressurected.
FACT: Terrestial Avatars can merge with a host and later be removed from them.
FACT: Terrestial Avatars chose to become what they are.

Still, I became a terrestrial avatar in order to assist mankind, and I fully intend to continue my work.
FACT: Carbuncle is not manipulating anyone. Carbuncle asks Summoners to help him on his quest. Manipulating would require him misleading summoners and it being proven in the story.

Theory: Terrestial Avatars have nothing to do with Altana and were created by happenstance.
The problem I have with the theory that the Terrestial Avatars have no role and simply commonplace animals back then is where are the rest of the overpowered avatar animals? Why are there only 5? Why are they the only ones concerned about saving Vana'diel? Why are the roles of the Terrestial Avatar's so instrumental in the grand design? Why did Altana even give them powers if all animals aren't created with that much power? It leaves too many unanswered questions to support that theory for me.

Theory: Carbuncle is evil or has partially evil intent
The problem I have with the theory that Carbuncle is in some way even partially evil, is there is nothing to support it. Just because he wants to awaken the sleeping gods does not make ill intent. Naivety maybe, but not evil. He states in Waking the Beast, he had no intention of the humanity's will being bent by the Celestial Avatars. He does think the world needs to be restored to it's true form (Source: The Moonlit Path quest). We have no idea what the true form of Vana'diel is. There is no proof that waking the celestial avatars is equivalent to opening the Gate of the Gods, ending Vana'diel. If that were true, then the Zilart would have just tried to awaken them and Carbuncle would have went to the Zilart to begin with and wouldn't have helped stop the Gate of the Gods to be opened.

What type of avatars are Cait Sith and Atomos?
They are simply avatars, like others have mentioned. Just because we have two sets of categories, does not mean there cannot be a 3rd or more. Hopefully the quest to unlock Cait Sith will tell us more but so far all we know is Cait Sith is the only avatar to actually be created directly from Altana (Source: WotG storyline). Where the celestial avatars use to be men and women (Source: Vana'diel Tribune) and the terrestial avatars use to be animals (Source: Carbunce: The Moonlit Path).

[Zeargi]

FACT: Carbuncle is not manipulating anyone. Carbuncle asks Summoners to help him on his quest. Manipulating would require him misleading summoners and it being proven in the story.
Theory: Carbuncle is evil or has partially evil intent
The problem I have with the theory that Carbuncle is in some way even partially evil, is there is nothing to support it. Just because he wants to awaken the sleeping gods does not make ill intent. Naivety maybe, but not evil. He states in Waking the Beast, he had no intention of the humanity's will being bent by the Celestial Avatars. He does think the world needs to be restored to it's true form (Source: The Moonlit Path quest). We have no idea what the true form of Vana'diel is. There is no proof that waking the celestial avatars is equivalent to opening the Gate of the Gods, ending Vana'diel. If that were true, then the Zilart would have just tried to awaken them and Carbuncle would have went to the Zilart to begin with and wouldn't have helped stop the Gate of the Gods to be opened.


Wait! Hold up there, I wanted to ask you...! I thought you could answer a question or two... You know, I've been thinking about this whole thing. How Carbuncle's got you whisper collecting... I wonder if this isn't just some grand farce to slowly steal power from the avatars? This tale has its share of twists, turns, and bends! I'm definitely curious to see how it ends!



Carbuncle: Infuse me with the energy...

Carbuncle: !?

Ifrit: False god.
You mar the name of the true deities.

Carbuncle: Ifrit!?

Carbuncle: How could this be?
The old gods were not yet meant to awaken!

Leviathan: We allow the divided god to be filled with our power.

Garuda: But the false god will never have our strength.

Shiva: Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish...

Titan: Our energy will return to us.
No longer shall it serve the trickster.

Ramuh: Return to the true gods!

Carbuncle: It's hopeless...
There's only one thing left for me to do.
Defeat the summoner!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>!
You cannot control them!
I'm sorry, but their connection to this world must be severed!

Carbuncle tried to kill you, if he was so worried... he should have tried to HELP you and defeat the manifestations.



Theory: Terrestial Avatars have nothing to do with Altana and were created by happenstance.
The problem I have with the theory that the Terrestial Avatars have no role and simply commonplace animals back then is where are the rest of the overpowered avatar animals? Why are there only 5? Why are they the only ones concerned about saving Vana'diel? Why are the roles of the Terrestial Avatar's so instrumental in the grand design? Why did Altana even give them powers if all animals aren't created with that much power? It leaves too many unanswered questions to support that theory for me.

Because there are only 5 Mothercrystals. The reason is that the Deities need a median to manifest in. This is a Fact! Even in the tribune when they talk about the Celestial Avatars merging with something else. You can also see this in ToAU with the Iron Colossus and The Dark Rider. The reason I believe the 5 terrestrial avatars are part of Promathia's soul is that:
He's referred to as the 'Twilight God,' not the God of Darkness, Not the God of Evil, the God of Twilight. Which means he is the inbetween of Dusk and Dawn. He also houses the lights of the Races, (Which could be the link to Carbuncle) He is the reason for the empty which inflicts eternal slumber (Diabolos). He is proven to become Shinryu, the God Dragon (Bahamut), Again He's the God of Twilight, so he also verges on the Night (Fenrir.) He can also be re-born (Phoenix). In Abyssea, you not once come across Bahamut, who commands All other Greater Dragons. Where is he? He already said that he'd plan to kill everyone if you failed. But magically, people are still alive, and there are still hordes of Greater Dragons roaming around. Where's Fenrir, He still would honor his pact, and have defended Windurst. Neither of these Avatars would have simple "Peaced out." Both are Prideful, and would have fought.


Carbuncle: <Player's Name>...
The sleeping gods do not exist to lead you... They exist to lead a lost god...
My friends and I are here for you...for mortals...

The Zilarts most like couldn't wake the Sleeping Gods, because they had no means to enter the crystals. You can't destroy the crystals from the outside. Drawing on the power will eventually wake that God. Proof: Odin. His Protocrystal was below Xarcabard, but he was Fully awake when someone summoned him as the Dark Rider to fight the Fully Awaken Alexander, but now there's no longer a Protocrystal there.

[Rwolf]

Leepe-Hoppe is doing what you are doing, hypothesizing. That is not fact.

Regarding the quote to Waking the Beast. You are only quoting/bolding a small segment of that entire cutscene. Of course the Celestial avatars feel more righteous than the Terrestial Avatars and humanity. If you read how each of them came into being Celestial avatars (Vana'diel Tribune). They are all pretty jaded from the world they left behind. That is not proof that Carbuncle is evil or has evil intent. Just because he needs the power of Celestial Avatars doesn't mean he shares their vision. He is simply a pragmatist. He knows their power will resurrect Fenrir and does it. He believes it will help humanity. You quoted it yourself.



The sleeping gods do not exist to lead you... They exist to lead a lost god...
My friends and I are here for you...for mortals...

Nor is it proof that they are going to open the Gate of the Gods just because Shiva said "Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish..."


Carbuncle tried to kill you, if he was so worried... he should have tried to HELP you and defeat the manifestations.


Carbuncle: Thank you for bringing the shell of my avatar, <Player's Name>.

Carbuncle: I thought that you would never return to this place.
I threatened your life, even if it was for the purpose of defeating the sleeping gods.

Carbuncle: But you fought me with every ounce of your strength, and bent the power of those slumbering deities to your will.

Carbuncle: That is what saved us at the end.

Carbuncle: You were never meant to submit to the will of the sleeping gods.
And I will never lose my faith in the children of Vana'diel.

Carbuncle: Even those ancient beings will one day learn the great truth from mortals.

He didn't help you because he thought you wouldn't release the summoning.


Carbuncle: <Player's Name>, you must dismiss the avatars!

Ifrit: How amusing.
Are you confused, mortal?

Ifrit: Did you meet us in battle at the behest of this creature?

Ifrit: Now it is clear.
Yet we will not be commanded by one such as you.

Carbuncle: It's hopeless...
There's only one thing left for me to do.
Defeat the summoner!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>!
You cannot control them!
I'm sorry, but their connection to this world must be severed!

This is not the words of someone who planned this. Carbuncle did not expect the energy taken from the 6 Celestial Avatars to take form, or attempt to drain Full Moon Fountain. Carbuncle fought you because he felt it was the only way to stop the summoning as you can apparently be controlled yourself if your will is not strong enough. Carbuncle's words in these cutscenes.


Because there are only 5 Mothercrystals. The reason is that the Deities need a median to manifest in. This is a Fact! Even in the tribune when they talk about the Celestial Avatars merging with something else. You can also see this in ToAU with the Iron Colossus and The Dark Rider.

No. There is no "deity" possessing a "median". Their names now were their names on Vana'diel before becoming Celestial Avatars. They became Celestial Avatars by the goddess herself.


The Goddess, sensing Titan and Daemdalus's great hope, beckoned the two to the heavens by holding out her hand.


The reason I believe the 5 terrestrial avatars are part of Promathia's soul is that:
He's referred to as the 'Twilight God,' not the God of Darkness, Not the God of Evil, the God of Twilight. Which means he is the inbetween of Dusk and Dawn. He also houses the lights of the Races, (Which could be the link to Carbuncle) He is the reason for the empty which inflicts eternal slumber (Diabolos). He is proven to become Shinryu, the God Dragon (Bahamut), Again He's the God of Twilight, so he also verges on the Night (Fenrir.) He can also be re-born (Phoenix). In Abyssea, you not once come across Bahamut, who commands All other Greater Dragons. Where is he? He already said that he'd plan to kill everyone if you failed. But magically, people are still alive, and there are still hordes of Greater Dragons roaming around. Where's Fenrir, He still would honor his pact, and have defended Windurst. Neither of these Avatars would have simple "Peaced out." Both are Prideful, and would have fought.

The reason he has the lights of the races is because he planted it there after Altana created the 5 races. Promathia, jealous of her creations, gave each of the races a flaw. Elvaan = Arrogance, Hume = Apathy, Tarutaru = Cowardice, Galka = Rage, and Mithra = Envy, as evident in the Ark Angels. Diabolos has nothing to do with the Emptiness, he feels it threatens Vana'diel when you speak with him in The Shrouded Maw, telling you to join his dream world to safety. If Diabolos was a byproduct of Promathia and the Emptiness, he would not fear it nor being a Terrestial avatar would let it harm Vana'diel.

Abyssea is the alternate dimension of what happened if you lost during the final fight of Chains of Promathia, Dawn. Promathia absorbed Bahamut and became Shinryu, which is why you don't come across him and why humanity is still around. Windurst is gone, the nations are gone in Abyssea, everyone is just wandering like Vagrants. You get this information speaking to the storyline related NPCs from the nations in Abyssea. As to why Fenrir isn't around in Abyssea, who knows. There's a lot of theories that could be crafted but just because Fenrir is not in Abyssea doesn't support a theory that all Terrestial Avatars come from Promathia.


The Zilarts most like couldn't wake the Sleeping Gods, because they had no means to enter the crystals. You can't destroy the crystals from the outside. Drawing on the power will eventually wake that God. Proof: Odin. His Protocrystal was below Xarcabard, but he was Fully awake when someone summoned him as the Dark Rider to fight the Fully Awaken Alexander, but now there's no longer a Protocrystal there.

I refuse to believe the Zilart, with all of their advanced technology and structures didn't have the ability to construct a tuning fork (the ones you use to fight the prime Avatars and mini). Still not showing any proof that harnessing the protocrystals = opening the Gate to the Gods. We know how it's opened already, I don't see the point in theorizing an alternative way to open the Gate to the Gods except trying to convince that Carbuncle has evil intent.

[Zeargi]

Leepe-Hoppe is doing what you are doing, hypothesizing. That is not fact.

Regarding the quote to Waking the Beast. You are only quoting/bolding a small segment of that entire cutscene. Of course the Celestial avatars feel more righteous than the Terrestial Avatars and humanity. If you read how each of them came into being Celestial avatars (Vana'diel Tribune). They are all pretty jaded from the world they left behind. That is not proof that Carbuncle is evil or has evil intent. Just because he needs the power of Celestial Avatars doesn't mean he shares their vision. He is simply a pragmatist. He knows their power will resurrect Fenrir and does it. He believes it will help humanity. You quoted it yourself. He THINKS it'll revive Fenrir... It's the action of Reviving Joker and Resurrecting Karaha-Baruha, that actually brings him back. It's an assumption on his part, which means it's a FOOL ERRAND!


Nor is it proof that they are going to open the Gate of the Gods just because Shiva said "Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish..."

The Sleeping Gods want the Gates opened, and Paradise restored. NOT the terrestrial



He didn't help you because he thought you wouldn't release the summoning. No, He tried to kill you because he believes that you CAN'T release the summoning.


Carbuncle: The fountain!

Carbuncle: The sleeping gods are draining it of power...

Carbuncle: I cannot allow this!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>, you must dismiss the avatars!

Ifrit: How amusing.
Are you confused, mortal?

Ifrit: Did you meet us in battle at the behest of this creature?

Ifrit: Now it is clear.
Yet we will not be commanded by one such as you.

Carbuncle: It's hopeless...
There's only one thing left for me to do.
Defeat the summoner!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>!
You cannot control them!
I'm sorry, but their connection to this world must be severed!




This is not the words of someone who planned this. Carbuncle did not expect the energy taken from the 6 Celestial Avatars to take form, or attempt to drain Full Moon Fountain. Carbuncle fought you because he felt it was the only way to stop the summoning as you can apparently be controlled yourself if your will is not strong enough. Carbuncle's words in these cutscenes.
No. There is no "deity" possessing a "median". Their names now were their names on Vana'diel before becoming Celestial Avatars. They became Celestial Avatars by the goddess herself.Those creatures are "Prime"
Prime(Def): of first importance; main. They are the originals
If they don't need a median then why did they Build 2 Giant Colossi? Also, you don't understand summoner much it seems. When you summon them as pets, who do you think is sustaining them in the world? YOU ARE!!! It's shown through the depletion of MP. You become the median that Fetters them to Vana'diel.



The reason he has the lights of the races is because he planted it there after Altana created the 5 races. Promathia, jealous of her creations, gave each of the races a flaw. Elvaan = Arrogance, Hume = Apathy, Tarutaru = Cowardice, Galka = Rage, and Mithra = Envy, as evident in the Ark Angels. Diabolos has nothing to do with the Emptiness, he feels it threatens Vana'diel when you speak with him in The Shrouded Maw, telling you to join his dream world to safety. If Diabolos was a byproduct of Promathia and the Emptiness, he would not fear it nor being a Terrestial avatar would let it harm Vana'diel.

Also incorrect, he gave them nothing directly. It was Altana's doing when she took the lights from the 5 Mothercrystals to make the races. She infused the 'Will of Promathia' into them so that he could live on through the people of Vana'diel. Possessing these flaws also serves as a distraction so that people won't attempt to open the Gates of the Gods, Reviving Promathia's Avatar which would siphon the life of all living things and bring them back to him so he could be completely reborn, and destroying the world. The Zilart Bros. Activating the Crystalline cause the 5 Crystals to re-active and awaken the sleeping Husk of Promathia, and allows the "Emptiness" (Which are those 5 traits) to escape from the Chamber of Eventides and feedback to the crystals.

The Shrouded Land of Dynamis is a parallel dimension separate from Vana'diel, and cannot be entered by normal means. It is a dreamworld created by the terrestrial avatar Diabolos, ruler of dreams, to escape from Vana'diel's fate. The Shadow Lord (known as the Dynamis Lord here), the Dark Kindred, the Forlorn Vanguards, Hydra Corps, and several others were all transported to or entered the realm at some point.

Diabolos: I am the ruler of dreams, and within my dreams--within my kingdom of Dynamis--people can escape the harshness of reality.

Diabolos: Emptiness consumes the body, but the soul lives on--it lives on in my world.

This is his solution to save the world. All the Terrestrial avatars see things differently, Bahamut has given up hope that Mankind can do anything and seeks to save the world by destroy the people that can bring about the "Keeper of The Apocalypse". Phoenix wishes to stand up and fight as she did tens of thousands of years ago, when the emptiness was still present for the Kuluu:


Tenzen: Of the five crystals, three have been overcome by the Emptiness...

Tenzen: Is it not the duty of the five terrestrial avatars to protect the crystals? Let us join in arms and defeat the enemy of light!

Diabolos: Battle the Emptiness...?

Diabolos: So, Phoenix still remains unwhole...

Diabolos: And that is why she continues to feed people false hopes, all the while forgetting the truths that lie in the battles fought ten thousand years ago...


Carbuncle: No matter how tightly sealed, as long as it exists alongside the mothercrystal, Promathia's will shall one day awaken.

Carbuncle: That is why I have come to guide you.
Guide you to the power of the slumbering gods.

Carbuncle: As many people as possible must possess this strength to prevent the awakening of the Twilight God.
Carbuncles idea is to infuse others with the Celestial Avatars power.


Nag'molada: I am Kuluu!
My strength comes from the protection of the terrestrial avatars. Without you, I am powerless!


Abyssea is the alternate dimension of what happened if you lost during the final fight of Chains of Promathia, Dawn. Promathia absorbed Bahamut and became Shinryu,which is why you don't come across him and why humanity is still around. Windurst is gone, the nations are gone in Abyssea, everyone is just wandering like Vagrants. You get this information speaking to the storyline related NPCs from the nations in Abyssea. As to why Fenrir isn't around in Abyssea, who knows. There's a lot of theories that could be crafted but just because Fenrir is not in Abyssea doesn't support a theory that all Terrestial Avatars come from Promathia.

If they didn't come from him, why would he bother to absorb them anyway? Yes, I made the assumption, but it never says he absorbs Bahamut. The only Avatar we know he has is Phoenix, because she was inside of Selh'teus. And it's only the children of Altana that have the 'Will of Promathia', so he'd have no reason to Absorb the Terrestrial Avatars. Still all the other Celestial Avatars are present, and only the two Terrestrial Avatars that have shown they can divide themselves, but all the others are gone... It's a theory yes, but at least it makes sense.


I refuse to believe the Zilart, with all of their advanced technology and structures didn't have the ability to construct a tuning fork (the ones you use to fight the prime Avatars and mini). Still not showing any proof that harnessing the protocrystals = opening the Gate to the Gods. We know how it's opened already, I don't see the point in theorizing an alternative way to open the Gate to the Gods except trying to convince that Carbuncle has evil intent.

Yep, they're really great... I mean totally awesome... That's why the were beaten by a handful of inferior beings and 5 animals.... Yep, must be so great being a dead race...

[Rwolf]

This has gotten completely off topic. From all I've seen from anyone involved in all of this "You're wrong this is how it really happened" melodrama, is the consensus that Phoenix is logically by the storyline capable of being a summonable avatar. We're getting Cait Sith and Atomos, Phoenix is completely plausible is the jist. Not only are you wrong on several accounts in the storyline and interjecting your own interpretation of the story. I can tell in all the bolding, typing in CAPS LOCK and wording that you are getting entirely too emotional and personal about this. I don't do arguments on forums. It was fine when it was just discussion, but you Zeargi, are way too irrational to have a discussion with. Having theories and discussions about theories are awesome. Trying to convince theory with no solid proof as fact, is not awesome. I have no desire to convince you of the storyline, I've said my piece about it. I can only suggest you cool off and reread the storyline with a fresh pragmatic view.

[Zeargi]

You think that I don't agree with you, but on many of the things I do. Just not everything, text are read, and people's own inflection are made. What one person reads, may not be read the same way as someone else. I agree: Phoenix is a plausible. I believe that it could be easily done. I agree: The 5 terrestrial avatars protect the Mothercrystals to save Vana'diel. I agree: They all have their own ideas of what 'saving' means. I agree: The Terrestrial Avatars Can Die and be Revived. I agree: They can merge with things and unmerge. Where I don't agree: Carbuncle, though not evil, is not 100% trustworthy. That the Avatars don't need a median to manifest on Vana'diel. Waking a God Fully, Breaks Their crystal. (I also agree that this is not the same thing as Opening the Gate of The Gods.)

And while I took the time to re-read the tribune, and the Celestial Avatars are indeed chosen by Altana with their actions moving her to make them into the Gods that they become, there is still much of the information that's missing. Which is why there are so many theories. And I apologize to you if I've deeply offended you.

[Rwolf]

I agree there is definitely information missing to draw conclusions to parts of the story yet to be addressed. I respect your point of view and agree to disagree on the theories. Hopefully at the most, this thread has sparked some curiosity about Phoenix and desire to continue integrating avatars into the storyline (sans Odin, he's got enough story related matter). They've never responded regarding summoning her and I think it would be an interesting avatar to have down the line.

[Zeargi]

I agree there is definitely information missing to draw conclusions to parts of the story yet to be addressed. I respect your point of view and agree to disagree on the theories. Hopefully at the most, this thread has sparked some curiosity about Phoenix and desire to continue integrating avatars into the storyline (sans Odin, he's got enough story related matter). They've never responded regarding summoning her and I think it would be an interesting avatar to have down the line.

I agree, wholeheartedly. The Phoenix would most definitely give Summoner something to bring home. There are still so many hopeful Avatar candidates that could make a house call. I'm also still wishing for the new Elementals to join the Summoning ranks, only this time, a little bit of control would be nice :D

It's times like this, I wish that could go back and watch the CS from start to finish again all in one sitting, from one spot. Much like the do in FFXIV with the books in the Inns.

[Annalise]

I actually enjoyed reading both of your posts. It got me interested in rereading the story which I will probably do at some time. I also respect the civilness at the end there. =)

[Arciel]

I really don't know where you guys are getting your lore from. Carbuncle isn't evil.

to clarify - Fenrir is a terrestrial avatar, one of 5 born to protect Vana'diel.
As far as the awakening of Promathia is concerned, each of the 5 avatars have a different view on how to protect the world.

Next, you need to bear in mind that many of the quests that take place in FFXI actually have some form of chronological order.
For the purposes of discussing Fenrir, the order is:
Windy missions (rank 10) -> The Moonlit Path -> Waking the Beast.

As mentioned by others, Fenrir had died in the summoning that saved Windurst during the Crystal War. Much later on in the Windy missions, he is revived at the Full Moon Fountain, but greatly weakened.
In the Trial by quests as well as the Moonlit Path, Carbuncle gets the player to siphon energy from the Sleeping Gods (the whisper) to give to Fenrir so that he may have enough energy to aid the players as well. Carbuncle has a second motive for siphoning energy from the Sleeping Gods into Vana'diel, which is to awaken them to prevent the return of Promathia (how this is done isn't elaborated upon, but he might be referring to preventing the consequences of Promathia's return, which is total annihilation in the hands of Bahamut because that is his solution to protect the world from Promathia. And Carbuncle believes the sleeping gods would be strong enough to rival his power).

In Waking the Beast, this siphoning is elaborated on further. With enough summoners siphoning the power of the sleeping gods out of the protocrystal, they may have enough energy to physically manifest in Vana'diel itself. Although Carbuncle tries to use this power to further revive Fenrir into his original state, the actual sleeping gods somehow manifest themselves physically at a much earlier stage than predicted. As this is undesirable, and the sleeping gods are tied to the summoner (you), Carbuncle ultimately makes the choice of having to sever their link to this world, by defeating the summoner. And because the sleeping gods are pissed at you, they attack you too.

To explain the words of the avatars. The sleeping gods (or old gods, as Carbuncle calls them) only recognize the gods that came before them - Altana and Promathia. They submit to the player because the player contains a fragment of Promathia within them. Promathia is the Divided God. Since the Terrestrial Avatars apparently came after them, they call them the false gods, and do not wish to share their power with them. Carbuncle is thus a trickster because he had made the player siphon their power for his own cause.

...

other lore corrections.

Odin's Protocrystal wasn't shattered because someone summoned the Dark Rider. It was shattered because the beastmen captured Emeline and brought her to Bearclaw Pinnacle to sing the entire Lay of the Immortals. However, Odin is not like the other sleeping gods as he rules the underworld or something to that extent and can already manifest and act independently in Vana'diel. That is why he's able to do the whole Dark Rider thing and fight Alexander in Ragnarok. That is also how he could grant Raogrimm powers to become the Shadow Lord.

Similarly, Alexander is entirely different from the avatars from the 6 protocrystals and should not be grouped together.

Terrestrial avatars do not have crystals or protocrystals.

edit: added more corrections

...

Phoenix as as avatar is a possibility, but will require some clever writing to tie in with the existing state of the story with regards to her. The same really goes for any avatar.

I'd also like to highlight that theres no real distinction in saying someone/something is a god or not. The terrestrial and celestial avatars are godlike and taken to be gods (lay of immortals worked on Odin after all), and even Promathia can die anyway.. such a categorization doesn't help to prove anything

[rufuslupus]

Odin's Protocrystal wasn't shattered because someone summoned the Dark Rider. It was shattered because the beastmen captured Emeline and brought her to Bearclaw Pinnacle to sing the entire Lay of the Immortals.


When the goddess split the the mother crystal to save promathia and everyone else, the celestial avatars fell asleep. the goddess knew that celestial avatars would reject the world of vana’diel and should they ever wake, she knew there be big trouble. So she picked a select chosen few and merged them with the celestial avatars to dampen their wrath with those people’s love of vana’diel.

It was also carby’s plan to nurture that love of vanadiel by having summoners show the avatars around the world of vana’diel so they wouldn’t have an urge to destroy it when they work up. As the avatars dream, they see what the summoner sees as they use their power.

what the beastmen dragged emeline to in bearclaw pinnacle was crystalized emptiness. When she sung the song of the gods, she awoke promathia within the emptiness and it shattered. Thanks to the zilart promathias body was already set to go.



However, Odin is not like the other sleeping gods as he rules the underworld or something to that extent and can already manifest and act independently in Vana'diel. That is why he's able to do the whole Dark Rider thing and fight Alexander in Ragnarok. That is also how he could grant Raogrimm powers to become the Shadow Lord

Similarly, Alexander is entirely different from the avatars from the 6 protocrystals and should not be grouped together.

Terrestrial avatars do not have crystals or protocrystals.


A protocrystal is a door to the realm of the celestial avatars and only exists as they sleep. When the celestial avatars wake up, their protocrystal’s will shatter. The realm of the terrestrial avatars is vana’diel and awake or sleeping they are in their realm so no protocrystal is required.

The missing piece of the puzzle is why is odin and alexander awake. It is a story square enix has yet to tell. Also we don’t know what alexander looks like yet either. The empires, old and new, keep building him a vessel to possess. Is alex outside the realm of vana’diel because odin won’t let him in? or contained in the artifact in whitegate cause of him, we don’t know.

If he is outside then the discussion wanders into wotg confusion with the 2 odins talk.



Phoenix as as avatar is a possibility, but will require some clever writing to tie in with the existing state of the story with regards to her. The same really goes for any avatar.


since caith sith and atomos are a new line of avatars I wouln’t mind them adding the final boss in wotg missions as a siren avatar. Come on look at her shes scream im an avatar.
They will give us bahamut just you wait. Were level 119 now and as a god he’s level 75. The only thing holding him back is square having to recreate him so his model works in game.

[Rwolf]

I almost completely agree with your description Arciel but I wouldn't say you're "correcting" any one. Parts of that you are just submitting your own interpretation because there is no current official story related part to tie it together.

Regarding your view of Carbuncle being labeled a trickster because of him misleading Summoners to siphon power for his own cause. Carbuncle was very clear on what he asked of and never tricks you into doing it.


I demand you perform a labor: visit the ancient beings that sleep in faraway lands and places of legend. Vana’diel is the world in which you live. You should see the true Vana’diel with your own eyes. I will extend a bridge. A bridge between the people of the present, and beings of ages past.

He is very clear from the beginning what his goals are and explains them even more during Waking the Beast. I can see how the Celestial Avatars however, think he's a trickster simply because they find him to be a false god and don't trust him.

Odin and Alexander are grouped together with the other Celestial Avatars because that's what they all are. They aren't asleep but it doesn't put them in a separate category. They each have dominion over 1 of the 8 elements of Vana'diel, awake or asleep.

[Rakshaka]

Odin's Protocrystal wasn't shattered because someone summoned the Dark Rider. It was shattered because the beastmen captured Emeline and brought her to Bearclaw Pinnacle to sing the entire Lay of the Immortals. However, Odin is not like the other sleeping gods as he rules the underworld or something to that extent and can already manifest and act independently in Vana'diel. That is why he's able to do the whole Dark Rider thing and fight Alexander in Ragnarok. That is also how he could grant Raogrimm powers to become the Shadow Lord.

This is all correct except for the very last part. When Raogrimm obtained the power to become the Shadow Lord, Odin was still within his protocrystal. Remember the timeline. The Shadow Lord attacked Tavnazia with his army, and took Emeline, meaning that Odin must have still been in the protocrystal when the Shadow Lord was created. In the WotG missions, there was a massive blast of darkness that came from north of castle Z. I believe this was when Odin was released from his protocrystal by Emeline. For anyone who doesn't remember Emeline waking the Dark Divinity, talk to the Bard in Selbina, and view the promathia mission "More Questions than Answers". Also, the side quests "Tuning In" and "Tuning Out" revolved around Odin's old protocrystal.



The missing piece of the puzzle is why is odin and alexander awake. It is a story square enix has yet to tell. Also we don’t know what alexander looks like yet either. The empires, old and new, keep building him a vessel to possess. Is alex outside the realm of vana’diel because odin won’t let him in? or contained in the artifact in whitegate cause of him, we don’t know.


I've explained why Odin is awake above. We do know what Alexander looks like. When the Gordeus was opened by the puppets, Alexander's true form appeared. The image can be found here, although during the mission I think it was lighted differently, and had a darker, more reddish hue:
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8237/alexanderfrontdm9.jpg
Alexander (the ruins version) was used 200 years ago. I'm only speculating here, but it seems that before then, the protocrystal must have been found by the empire, and destroyed. Alexander must have been captured within the Gordeus in order to control the ruins. Another speculation about where the light protocrystal must have been placed is based on the weather patterns of Vana'diel. Protocrystals all reside within areas that experience their element of weather. Following this train of though, the location of the light protocrystal could be Qufim, or Tu'Lia.



If he is outside then the discussion wanders into wotg confusion with the 2 odins talk.


There is only one Odin. Odin shared his power with Raogrimm to sate his rage, thus turning him into the Shadow Lord. This doesn't mean that Odin is allied with the Shadow Lord, simply that he shared his power with someone capable of bringing death and destruction to the world. In the alternate WotG timeline, Lillith got her power from Odin as well, the very same Odin that granted power to the Shadow Lord. Again, he saw someone capable of bringing death and destruction to the world, and awarded her with dark powers, and the ability to call forth demons. He could care less who carries his power, only that the end result is a world filled with darkness and destruction.

[rufuslupus]

This is all correct except for the very last part. When Raogrimm obtained the power to become the Shadow Lord, Odin was still within his protocrystal. Remember the timeline. The Shadow Lord attacked Tavnazia with his army, and took Emeline, meaning that Odin must have still been in the protocrystal when the Shadow Lord was created. In the WotG missions, there was a massive blast of darkness that came from north of castle Z. I believe this was when Odin was released from his protocrystal by Emeline. For anyone who doesn't remember Emeline waking the Dark Divinity, talk to the Bard in Selbina, and view the promathia mission "More Questions than Answers". Also, the side quests "Tuning In" and "Tuning Out" revolved around Odin's old protocrystal.

Ok I went back and rewatched cop mission 5-3 ulmia’s path. Now Im set straight.

The crystal that drove the allied expedition mad was a piece of the star of tavnazia. The star of tavnazia is magicite with emptiness sealed within it. The voice that drove the expedition mad was the voice of promathia. After the madness, raogrimm is scored by odin with his usual deal.

Raogrimm got his power and army from odin without shattering his protocrystal. No one in vana’diel knew the 5th verse of the lay of the immortals except odin and the other celestial avatars (sleeping gods). Now the shadowlord, raogrimm invades tavnazia for the first 4 verses. He takes emeline back to odin and gets her to sing the full lay of immortals. The lay of immortals not only wakes sleeping gods it brings them back to life.

Now here is where things get fuzzy. The shadowlord brought the magicite with him to odin and odin doesn’t exactly let his business customers go so easily. Did the shadowlord shatter the crystal to gain his freedom from odin? Or did the shadowlord collect the verses of the lay to resurrect promathia? Both were present when emeline sung.

But even with all said above this isn’t the first time odin has been awaken. So who woke odin thousands of years ago in teasures of aht urhgan?



There is only one Odin. Odin shared his power with Raogrimm to sate his rage, thus turning him into the Shadow Lord. This doesn't mean that Odin is allied with the Shadow Lord, simply that he shared his power with someone capable of bringing death and destruction to the world. In the alternate WotG timeline, Lillith got her power from Odin as well, the very same Odin that granted power to the Shadow Lord. Again, he saw someone capable of bringing death and destruction to the world, and awarded her with dark powers, and the ability to call forth demons. He could care less who carries his power, only that the end result is a world filled with darkness and destruction.

Spoiler if ya haven’t won your wotg missions beware---------




The reason it’s confusing is that ya have a real world and a dream world. Both worlds have shadowlords. The difference is lilith made a deal with odin to win vs her shadowlord who won his crystal war. If both worlds have a shadowlord, then both worlds must have an odin as well. One is real and the other is a dream. That’s the debate. If there is only one odin, did he say and do the same exact thing in both worlds? The only official thing is there are doubles of the terrestrial avatars because they are tied into the world they exist in.

[Mnejing]

Well quite disappointed looking at the Caith Sith post, hope there will be some adjustments down the line and given a merit bloodpact.

[Herby]

disappointed? it's a utility Avatar, if the accuracy is good on Eerie Eye this could be a game changer for SMN. Though SE would probably let NMs just resist it. ARISEGA as AF pact could be the saving grace of a botched BCNM or whatever. we don't even know Holy ?'s Potency for us, so it might be a nice AoE Nuke for Highlvl, we were still missing something like that. Having the Ability of Reraise II without /SCH and /WHM gives us all the more reason to sub /RDM for soloing things (or more exotic subs like /WAR or /SAM for meleeing *yikes i said meleeing shame on me*). AND they didn't tell us what Favor Cait will get yet. It may be something good like regain. then we would be quite a good support and actually be considered: Attack bonus(Ifrit), Hastega(Garuda) + Regain and Silence/Amnesia sounds pretty nice on paper (but that's where sadly the problems start: most things SE add sound good on paper).

[Byrth]

Cait Sith looks so much worse than I ever could have imagined. Hats off, SE. You really outdid yourself this time.

The Amnesia effect isn't going to land on anything significant (or if it does, it'll be patched quickly). The only thing the avatar brings to the table is another source of AoE damage with Level ? Holy. I hope it at least has TH or something. Sheeet.

[FaeQueenCory]

Well quite disappointed looking at the Caith Sith post, hope there will be some adjustments down the line and given a merit bloodpact.
I too am slightly disappointed, but She will never be given a merit BP.

However.
It looks like she's in a 75-era state...
Meaning... She's unfinished.
Diabolos and Fenrir both gained "merit equivalent BPs"...
S0...
Here's hoping she'll get 1-2 more BPs later...
(Cause these at 99 aren't really gonna cut it)

Also: Does she have a favor? >_> if not....... Then she is REALLY unfinished.

[Herby]

whining, whining, and even more whining... We didn't need another Garuda/Ifrit/Ramuh, Cait Sith gives us things we didn't have before, and instead of being thankful for more utility spells, we Summoner's again just whine, disgusting, sry for the rant, but really, what did you expect? An Avatar to overshadow all the others? yeah right...

[Brightshadow]

Wow...... I mean I'm happy we are getting a new avatar but I don't think SE understood us when we said we wanted a light based DD avatar. While attributes and avatar favor are important features that could make or break her I think they should spend more time making her into the light version of fenrir. Also it doesn't seem very avatar like to have so many common spells like Raise II and Reraise II they should have combined those two spells and made a single bloodpact. In addition, she's made as a level 75 avatar instead of a level 99 avatar she really needs alot of work perhaps they should hold her till summer 2014 to make her more on par with the other avatars. Otherwise Carbuncle will still be our avatar of choice when we want anything light based.

[Rakshaka]

Overall, I couldn't be happier with Cait Sith. Please keep in mind that getting new avatars doesn't necessarily mean becoming more powerful. The greatest thing that a new avatar gives us is more versatility, which is what our job is all about. Besides, why would anyone expect to get awesomely powerful blood pacts from Cait Sith? He/She (I forget) doesn't look anything like a powerhouse. In a fight between Cait and Carbie, id put money on Carbie.

Altana's Favor: Awesome support AF. This is perfect doing things like saving failed Yumcax runs. With enough elixirs and smn/glyphic horn augment, you could cast this 5 times before AF wears.
Raise 2/Reraise 2: These aren't affected by weakness. You'll be able to raise people every 38 seconds if you're weakened, which is also great for helping save runs. This also allows non /sch and /whm access to reraise.

Regal Scratch: stock level 1 phys BP, nothing special here
Mewing Lullaby: This is the first rage pact that inflicts sleep! Now, if you want to sleep a group of mobs and also debuff them (e.g. with Diamond Storm, or Lunar Roar) you can!
Eerie Eye: This has great potential, as it's possibly (i thought there was some item that inflicted amnesia; could be wrong) the first way for the player to inflict amnesia, which is huge! I just hope it doesn't have the accuracy of Pavor Nocturnus.
Level ? Holy: This is the second aoe damage non-AF blood pact that we'll get (the first and only previously being Thunderspark, which was given to us at a very low level). It's about time that we got an updated damaging aoe BP. Think of how much more powerful it will be than Thunderspark. Imagine using this against a large group of mobs along with astral conduit; it would be like giving a black mage access to chainspell and having him spam thundaja!

[Brightshadow]

Overall, I couldn't be happier with Cait Sith. Please keep in mind that getting new avatars doesn't necessarily mean becoming more powerful. The greatest thing that a new avatar gives us is more versatility, which is what our job is all about. Besides, why would anyone expect to get awesomely powerful blood pacts from Cait Sith? He/She (I forget) doesn't look anything like a powerhouse. In a fight between Cait and Carbie, id put money on Carbie.

Altana's Favor: Awesome support AF. This is perfect doing things like saving failed Yumcax runs. With enough elixirs and smn/glyphic horn augment, you could cast this 5 times before AF wears.
Raise 2/Reraise 2: These aren't affected by weakness. You'll be able to raise people every 38 seconds if you're weakened, which is also great for helping save runs. This also allows non /sch and /whm access to reraise.

Regal Scratch: stock level 1 phys BP, nothing special here
Mewing Lullaby: This is the first rage pact that inflicts sleep! Now, if you want to sleep a group of mobs and also debuff them (e.g. with Diamond Storm, or Lunar Roar) you can!
Eerie Eye: This has great potential, as it's possibly (i thought there was some item that inflicted amnesia; could be wrong) the first way for the player to inflict amnesia, which is huge! I just hope it doesn't have the accuracy of Pavor Nocturnus.
Level ? Holy: This is the second aoe damage non-AF blood pact that we'll get (the first and only previously being Thunderspark, which was given to us at a very low level). It's about time that we got an updated damaging aoe BP. Think of how much more powerful it will be than Thunderspark. Imagine using this against a large group of mobs along with astral conduit; it would be like giving a black mage access to chainspell and having him spam thundaja!

Small doesn't mean weak, she could still be the light version of fenrir; however, due to her bloodpacts I don't foresee her getting much action outside of Level ? holy, in the future SE should add the 3 remaining Bloodpacts to make her on par with the other avatars and please for the love of god make the missing bloodpacts damage dealing based. From what I see in her bloodpacts she looks like what phoenix would have been if we had a fight with her.

At the very least they should also add Banish II & Banish IV to make her more damage dealing like even tho its uncommon for avatars to have many normal spells as bloodpacts.

[Lithera]

Sleep that lowers the effected mobs tp. Hopefully her AF will make groups want summoners in more fights for a oh crap moments. Sure it will be just like the PD days, but right now most summoners don't get brought because they don't have anything the current player mentality wants.

Yes, the only two that are worrisome in how strong is the amnesia and the holy. I hope SE learned their lesson with diablos and not make these worthless for the most part. Will be waiting for the various tests on these.

[Lithera]

Cait to me has always come off as a light weight scrapper type fighter. So she might not hit hard outside of her BPs but she'll hit more often. Think of her like a house cat. They have insane speed but mostly nothing that is going to be a huge hurt factor.

[Lithera]

Huh, something that will be needing testing is her sleep as it didn't say if it was light or dark based. If she is light then even a better reason to have her out with so many things resistant to dark based sleep or highly resistant to it.

[Rakshaka]

Very good point! This is most likely a light based sleep, which makes it even better!

[Sasaraixx]

whining, whining, and even more whining... We didn't need another Garuda/Ifrit/Ramuh, Cait Sith gives us things we didn't have before, and instead of being thankful for more utility spells, we Summoner's again just whine, disgusting, sry for the rant, but really, what did you expect? An Avatar to overshadow all the others? yeah right...

Whining? How about valid concerns/critiques? I think you need to take a step back and calm down.

I don't see much utility. I have no faith that the amnesia pact is going to land on anything worthwhile. Does it seem likely groups will bring a SMN just for arisega? I don't think so.

Assuming the sleep pact is light based, that will be a nice addition but it really would only affect solo play.

If the potency of the holy spell is good then that will be her saving grace.

[Mefuki]

It's probably because I don't really follow the state of SMN that much but what exactly were we expecting? What did we want Cait Sith to do? What do we want any new avatars to do? I ask these questions sincerely. Aren't these Blood Pacts the same ones from the BCNM? So, it's not like we should be surprised at what we got. We knew that was what we we getting. I guess I'm just confused as to why everyone is so disappointed.

[Shalehonnleath]

The Website doesn't mention anything about Cait Sith's Favor Effect. Anyone heard anything?

[Imakun]

She doesn't have any BP above lv75, so I guess we'll see something more soon enough.
Still, after all these years they really should have given us the complete package :\

[Cabalabob]

Yeah I'm hoping the list isn't final, she hasn't got much, I'm still holding out for retracega/sneak invisiblega, maybe some decent damage pacts. But at least we now have something to replace thunderspark with as our AoE.

I'm not saying what she has isn't good, my eyes widened at that AF pact, though really it's SE's way of saying "there AoE raise + reraise, Phoenix isn't coming stop asking!".

It's more just that there is very little there, 2 damage pact, 2 debuffs, 2 wards excluding AF, just not much to work with. So I just hope she gets more, even if in later updates.

[Kagetachi]

looking at the page here (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Distorter_of_Time) for the basis of Cait Sith's abilities. The link leads to gamerescapes page for the Distorter of Time fight in WotG. (Fight against Bad Cait Sith and Atomos)

Cait Sith uses the following moves
Regal Scratch
Divine Favor - removes all negative status effects by the power of Altana.
Mewing Lullaby
Eerie Eye
Level ? Holy

Thinking about the terms of who Cait Sith is after looking at this fight puts me more at easy with Cait Sith having the raise abilities. Since she is the messenger from Altana.

In the fight Atomos seems to have 2 abilities.

Soul Vacuum - AoE All Status Down
Soul Infusion - Bestows all drain status to target

If Atomos is a 2-hour avatar. Soul Vacuum would make sense as a BP. Actually both could be done with an interesting mechanic. where after you drain the enemies, it would enable a blood pact: ward that would allow the summoner to Bestow all of the status to a target. That would be really cool.

Note: the soul infusion would have a 0 mp cost since you would no mp. Also Atomos would stay out until astral flow ends, he is dismissed or Soul Infusion is used.

[FaeQueenCory]

Whining? How about valid concerns/critiques? I think you need to take a step back and calm down.

I don't see much utility. I have no faith that the amnesia pact is going to land on anything worthwhile. Does it seem likely groups will bring a SMN just for arisega? I don't think so.

Assuming the sleep pact is light based, that will be a nice addition but it really would only affect solo play.

If the potency of the holy spell is good then that will be her saving grace.
Therein lies the problem... if it works even remotely similar to the BCNM version.... then it's gonna be hella variable...
Which is not good for DD.
Sure, it's AoE... but is the cost of an AoE really WORTH the price of damage being so small you just wasted 100mp for? (assumed as it's a 75 BP)
Hopefully She'll be given a single-target-merit-BP-equivalent BP at 80ish.... ala Diabolos and Fenrir's Night Terror and Lunar Bay (80 and 78 respectively).
Heck, Carbuncle got one at 76.... so... who knows.


It's probably because I don't really follow the state of SMN that much but what exactly were we expecting? What did we want Cait Sith to do? What do we want any new avatars to do? I ask these questions sincerely. Aren't these Blood Pacts the same ones from the BCNM? So, it's not like we should be surprised at what we got. We knew that was what we we getting. I guess I'm just confused as to why everyone is so disappointed.
What we were wanting was a replacement for Carbuncle....
A "light Fenrir"... or a "Light Diabolos"... Or even just a "Light phys-2-4-Merit-Buff Avatar" like Ifrit, Garuda, Shiva, Titan, Leviathan and Ramuh.
What we got... was basically Carbuncle again... but with RR2. (though why no RR3? unless.... she can pimp that RR2 out!! .... nah....)

She's not really BAD.... but She's not... good.
She's just kinda... meh.
She really needed the equivalent of Night Terror or Lunar Bay.... Which, I suspect, ??? Holy can reach that level of damage... but that's not a consistent thing... and a normal nuke, not a gimmicky one, was/is needed.


But as I've pointed out, no word on Her Favor (in other words: later update) and Her BPs end at lv75... which all other Avatars gain a few more post 75... so... I'm calling that She's unfinished.
BUT this can actually be a blessing...
There's a dev on the team who not only actually understands how SMN works as a job... but is actively making gear for it that is just... insane. (see SMN's RFs and Nirvana 119)
Not only that... but Matsui himself seems to want to push the job into realizing it's DD-support-tank hybrid status. (it's main purpose is DD, it has great support, and can tank under the right circumstances; and he has said multiple times that he wants to push it's main aspect, DD, further into competitive levels.)
And not only THAT... but Matsui actually listens... to the best of his abilities... he IS being FFXI's God afterall...
So chances are...
They pushed an early implementation of Cait Sith to 1) shut us up, and 2) use our feedback on Her to dictate what Her post-75 BP(s) should be... (Holy 3 anyone?)

And it really won't take much tweaking to make Her the better Carbuncle she was supposed to be.

EDIT:
Thinking about the terms of who Cait Sith is after looking at this fight puts me more at easy with Cait Sith having the raise abilities. Since she is the messenger from Altana.
I found it to be a charming mechanical representation of what She IS:
The Tears of The Goddess.

And what did Altana task Her tears to do?
Raise the dead world to one of life and prosperity.

Though why the hell does the ubergoddess cry kitties?
Supergods like Her and Promathia sure are weird.

[Glamdring]

I'm seeing Caitsith more as a new soloing/lowman avatar with this design, although an AoE Arise is clearly party. as to her lack of combat utility, until I see her hit/dodge I'm gonna withhold judgment on that one. A light based sleep with TP down clearly has utility-if you can keep the idiots from immediately reawakening whatever you slept at least, including Caitsith herself. But that silence/amnesia ability, that has MASSIVE potential, like Aby Proc worth IF SE allows it to work on NMs as well-which is doubtful, or at least any longer than Stun does. The Holy ability, kinda an also ran. still, any new light based avatar has some utility, carby seems to be forgotten endgame. I would like to know what her "Favor" will be.

but based on Caitsith I'm anticipating Atmos will be more combat oriented, either DD or smn's 1st USEFUL tank.

[Rakshaka]

Maybe we should start another thread to discuss Cait Sith; one that has the [dev1185] tag on it.

Edit: nvm, didn't see the tags section at the bottom

[Zeargi]

I know it's been a long time, but let's not forget, they did want to implement 2 more Merit groups for the jobs as well. There may be hope yet that this factor may come back into play.

[Kari]

Only thing I'm thinking about Cait Sith is that Raise II might be practically instant cast. [Do Summons have cast times on any spells? I don't play SMN.]
Potency of some of these pacts may or may not make her useful.

[Imakun]

Only thing I'm thinking about Cait Sith is that Raise II might be practically instant cast. [Do Summons have cast times on any spells? I don't play SMN.]
Potency of some of these pacts may or may not make her useful.

Avatars don't have spells, they are all Blood Pacts and they all have the same casting time except Ramuh's Shock Squall which is a Stun BP.

[FaeQueenCory]

Avatars don't have spells, they are all Blood Pacts and they all have the same casting time except Ramuh's Shock Squall which is a Stun BP.
Same casting time... As each other.
Which is about 6s give or take.
So.... Yes? Her R2s have the potential to be faster casted raises?

[Imakun]

I guess there could be a possibility, but I wouldn't count on it.
If anything, her 2H BP should be the one that's faster for obvious reasons.

EDIT The casting time is definitely less than 6s, more like 4. Shock Squall is a bit less than half of that.

[Glamdring]

I guess there could be a possibility, but I wouldn't count on it.
If anything, her 2H BP should be the one that's faster for obvious reasons.

EDIT The casting time is definitely less than 6s, more like 4. Shock Squall is a bit less than half of that.

is that with or without gear? honestly, I don't know, I haven't played smn naked since like level 7. and I have no idea if "casting time" for avatars are affected by anything, including smn skill. I know there is recast time down gear.

[Herby]

all Bloodpacts have a readying Time of 3 seconds, but since it takes roughly 1 second until they respond (ability delay...) it'S about 4 seconds until the bloodpact is executed.Shock Squall is obviously an exception with a readying time of 1 second

[Imakun]

is that with or without gear? honestly, I don't know, I haven't played smn naked since like level 7. and I have no idea if "casting time" for avatars are affected by anything, including smn skill. I know there is recast time down gear.

There is no gear or ability that can shorten an Avatar's "casting time" of a BP. The casting time/Fast Cast on SMN gear effects the Summoner's magic casting time, not the Avatar's. Summoning Skill and Astral Conduit don't have an effect on that either.

The Recast Time you see is "Blood Pact delay -#" maybe? That has en effect on the global BP timer, not the BP casting time. But I guess you know that.

[FaeQueenCory]

all Bloodpacts have a readying Time of 3 seconds, but since it takes roughly 1 second until they respond (ability delay...) it'S about 4 seconds until the bloodpact is executed.Shock Squall is obviously an exception with a readying time of 1 second
AND there's always the delay of THE INTERNET... so 6s from enter command to it going off is about the average. (though there are some BPs that like to shoot off quickly compared to others... Night Terror seems to have a slightly less ready time than Nether Blast... And Meteorite seems to have a slightly less delay than Holy Mist... You notice these things when Hagondes boots went gold and you mess around with your macros to get the timing JUST PERFECT... Also, when you've made an Arka IV. ;p )

[Byrth]

THE INTERNET only adds 0.3 seconds for all but the shittiest connections. Also, JA delay does not necessarily matter here as it happens after your JAs.

[Herby]

i get off 7 (mostly) to 8 (if i'm lucky with responsiveness) Bloodpacts while unter the effect of Astral Conduit. 30 / 7 = 4,29 seconds not sure where you get your 6seconds from. btw the BP is actually calculated at the beginning of the attack animation, not at the end so you can start your next BP right at the end of the "TP move readying" animation

[Rakshaka]

I typically wait one second after my hands go down from using a BP before I initiate another BP during conduit. By doing that, I come close to performing the max number of BPs per conduit possible.

[Hvinire]

We can't speak to specifics on the potency of Cait Sith's actions, but as you can see, they were designed with the role of support in mind and like Carbuncle, the amount of MP required to keep her out is comparatively low. Cait Sith will debut with actions up to level 75, but we're planning to introduce more abilities for higher levels, but for now we don't have a date we can share.

We look forward to our summoners getting a chance to try out their new feline friend and gathering more feedback!

[Pawlie]

what about atomos? and is there an adoulin avatar?

[Genoxd]

We can't speak to specifics on the potency of Cait Sith's actions, but as you can see, they were designed with the role of support in mind and like Carbuncle, the amount of MP required to keep her out is comparatively low. Cait Sith will debut with actions up to level 75, but we're planning to introduce more abilities for higher levels, but for now we don't have a date we can share.

We look forward to our summoners getting a chance to try out their new feline friend and gathering more feedback!


This is hands down the worst thing I have ever heard come out of the dev team. You realize carbuncle is 100% worthless right? It never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever is used on anything ever.

Thanks for the avatar I will never summon. I was expecting another diabolos, useful but sucks overall, but instead we get another carbuncle lol.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

what about atomos? and is there an adoulin avatar?

At this point answering that would be a spoiler.

[Ophannus]

Maybe not endgame, but Carbuncle is supposed to be a low level, versatile avatar with decent healing/support/damage/magic abilities. It's an all around decent and versatile avatar that's free and cheap. Just think of it as a Fast Blade or a T1 nuke(pre patch) nobody used them at high levels but they were pretty good at low levels. Carbuncle was intended to be a versatile avatar for young summoners who haven't unlocked the others yet. Most PUPs dont use Harlequinn frame at high levels yet it's still versatile as a starting/low level Automaton.

[Draylo]

This is hands down the worst thing I have ever heard come out of the dev team. You realize carbuncle is 100% worthless right? It never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever is used on anything ever.

Thanks for the avatar I will never summon. I was expecting another diabolos, useful but sucks overall, but instead we get another carbuncle lol.

Carbuncle is used ALL the time in reives/WKR/any open event. Strong AOE cure and aoe erase, why wouldn't you?

[Genoxd]

Carbuncle is used ALL the time in reives/WKR/any open event. Strong AOE cure and aoe erase, why wouldn't you?

LOL.

Sorry I guess I should be thankful! Now I can do WKR and AoE Arise everyone that sucks :D God damn here I was thinking hey it would be cool to you know do end game content on SMN and not be stuck giving people PD or EA but I must be a noob lol why didn't I think of how awesome I am in WKR. I mean my god I just love doing those all day..

[Papesse]

Being able to erase up to 5-6 debuffs at once, Curaga III or add a 10% Defense Boost / 4% MDT that lasts 6:20 is already good enough for me. Carbuncle is weaker than the other avatars but by no means worthless in our arsenal.

I'm fine with getting RR, a Light based Sleep/TP reduces BP and an AoE potentially stronger than Thunderspark but as I thought, Cait Sith seems a bit unfinished at the moment, will she ever got an Avatar's Favor aura? Considering most of our useful Blood Pacts have come past the lvl 75 cap (Tidal Roar, Diamond Storm, Earthen Armor, Inferno Howl, Fleet Wind, Night Terror...) I keep hope that she can get 1 or 2 situationally useful BPs later like a strong Piercing or a curing BP. Something that gives Defense Down, Critical hit rate/damage or Regain would be great of course but it's unlikely to me. Divine Favor is also missing, if I recall, it doesn't just removes negative status effects but also gives Alacrity and Manifestation effects in the "Distorter of Time" BC.

[Brightshadow]

Atleast if they give her Divine Favor later down the line she'll have a good use I guess, but Scholars are sure gonna be pissed at summoners, she could also use a tier II regal scratch attack.

[Genoxd]

Being able to erase up to 5-6 debuffs at once, Curaga III or add a 10% Defense Boost / 4% MDT that lasts 6:20 is already good enough for me. Carbuncle is weaker than the other avatars but by no means worthless in our arsenal.

I'm fine with getting RR, a Light based Sleep/TP reduces BP and an AoE potentially stronger than Thunderspark but as I thought, Cait Sith seems a bit unfinished at the moment, will she ever got an Avatar's Favor aura? Considering most of our useful Blood Pacts have come past the lvl 75 cap (Tidal Roar, Diamond Storm, Earthen Armor, Inferno Howl, Fleet Wind, Night Terror...) I keep hope that she can get 1 or 2 situationally useful BPs later like a strong Piercing or a curing BP. Something that gives Defense Down, Critical hit rate/damage or Regain would be great of course but it's unlikely to me. Divine Favor is also missing, if I recall, it doesn't just removes negative status effects but also gives Alacrity and Manifestation effects in the "Distorter of Time" BC.

Healing Ruby II is weaker then curaga III. Shining Ruby def is nice, but MDT doesn't break cap so it's crap unless your DD aren't swapping into DT sets. You only need 21 MDT to cap, that's really easy to get.

Avatar's Favor lowers avatar attack by 20% and MAB by 20. Get rid of that retarded penalty and then sure, I'd like an Avatar's Favor.
I was shocked Celestial Avatars didn't get any new DD BPs from 75-99. All we have is nice support stuff, we don't need more support. We need more damage.

Edit: oh and I forgot, unless you have carbuncle out by the time you actually summon then get into range and actually use soothing ruby you could have cast 2-3 Erases and so could the other healers in your PT. Since you're likely with a PLD and a WHM and probably something else that can erase and your only task is to make sure EA stays up so the PLD doesn't die, using that soothing ruby means you can't do your job for the next 38 seconds if EA goes down and needs to be reapplied.

[Brightshadow]

Or they could just make the avatar favor a native effect when you summon the avatar, instead of making a pet action with a useless penalty, also the favors should effect the avatar.

[Vivivivi]

This is hands down the worst thing I have ever heard come out of the dev team. You realize carbuncle is 100% worthless right? It never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever is used on anything ever.

Thanks for the avatar I will never summon. I was expecting another diabolos, useful but sucks overall, but instead we get another carbuncle lol.

Isn't that what Cait sith is supposed to be? A replacement for Carbuncle that is actually usable at higher levels?

[Imakun]

Isn't that what Cait sith is supposed to be? A replacement for Carbuncle that is actually usable at higher levels?

Sure, instead of at least trying to heal with Carbuncle we'll just let people die and Raise them with Cait Sith! Ahah
Not gonna happen, unless she gets Erase(ga) and Cure(ga) that don't suck.

Removing the retarded penalty of Avatar's Favor is long overdue. If anything, the favor should be an automatic aura the Avatar has upon summoning (that affects the avatar itself). No more resets with BPs and scaling in power with time and no more -Atk/MAB. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I don't think we really need more damaging Blood Pacts, let lv70 physical BPs scale better with levels and I'd be fine. Magic damage is ok now, even if less seconds on the BP timer would be even better.
Also, remove lunar phase and time of day shenanigans from Fenrir and Diabolos (and make Wards like Noctoshield and Dream Shroud scale better with level/smn. magic).

We've been saying these things for years now, looking at what we're getting with Cait Sith makes me think the dev has no clue whatsoever.

[Brightshadow]

I don't want a replacement for Carbuncle I like all my avatars, I just want Cait Sith to be more useful than a raise spell.

[Sasaraixx]

Or they could just make the avatar favor a native effect when you summon the avatar, instead of making a pet action with a useless penalty, also the favors should effect the avatar.


I've been asking for this for years. Remove the penalty and the -perp bonus and just make it a bloody trait. Give the avatars the favors themselves so that they can have some increased uniqueness. If they don't do that, then they need to enhance the effects.

[FaeQueenCory]

THE INTERNET only adds 0.3 seconds for all but the shittiest connections. Also, JA delay does not necessarily matter here as it happens after your JAs.
THE INTERNET is not a constant connection.
No one has that.
It's a fluxuating thing, hence why lag occurs... even if that's only due to the user end... that's still a part of the grand beast of THE INTERNET.
FFXI even has an internal ping counter up in the top left corner... no one's is a constant number.

i get off 7 (mostly) to 8 (if i'm lucky with responsiveness) Bloodpacts while unter the effect of Astral Conduit. 30 / 7 = 4,29 seconds not sure where you get your 6seconds from. btw the BP is actually calculated at the beginning of the attack animation, not at the end so you can start your next BP right at the end of the "TP move readying" animation
Yeah.... but that has nothing to do with a normal ability start >>>> ability animation >>>> ability end.
And surely you've noticed how quite often there's a huge animation overlap under Astral Conduit...
As to where I've gotten 6s from... it's the end-avg of activation to firing. 6s covers all BPs, but many are faster than that, and it's really more "6s before gear change"...
It takes account everything such that even under the most direst of lags, your BPs won't be messed up in your macros.
But that's just been my experience.
There also is some weird delay between damage dealt and the animation ending... at least that's been what I've found when trying to find the perfect gear swap times. (currently using <wait 2> /equip +dmg stuff <wait 4> /equip perp/idle stuff for most BPs... though some are lower (3)... a couple are higher (5)... Using other wait times has resulted in too fast gear swaps that results in the BPs not getting their full +dmg/MAB.)


But on to the new information....
bluh.
I was right.
She IS unfinished...
No favor, more BPs later....
BUT, as I already said, this is actually a blessing.
Now WE can influence Her development into something worthwhile.
Because while Matsui makes mistakes (he's only human) and might do things you don't agree with.... he DOES listen to the players. (also, pretty sure they've snuck a revamp for the Aht Urhgan Beastmen Leaders pop time in this update.... a full devtag announcement for Campaign being adjusted... but no word about these mysterious NM pop adjustments? smh)

[Genoxd]

FFXI even has an internal ping counter up in the top left corner... no one's is a constant number.


Um, last I checked that wasn't ping. I believe that's how much data has been sent and received over some period of time.

And there's something wrong with your connection if you're getting a 1 second ping. When I ping yahoo.co.jp I get an average time of 123ms.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

And there's something wrong with your connection if you're getting a 1 second ping.

Satellite.

[Genoxd]

Satellite.

As I said, there's something wrong with your connection if you're getting a 1 second ping.

[Rakshaka]

Could a community rep clarify the "Reraise II" Blood Pact wording? "Grants you the effect of Raise II when you are KO'd." Does this mean that the "Reraise II" Blood Pact is self-target only, or will we be able to use it on party members as well? I'm hoping that we can target party members, and not just yourself. With all the available forms of RR out there, I don't think it would be game breaking to allow this to target your party members.

[Zeargi]

Could a community rep clarify the "Raise II" Blood Pact wording? "Grants you the effect of Raise II when you are KO'd." Does this mean that the "Raise II" Blood Pact is self-target only, or will we be able to use it on party members as well? I'm hoping that we can target party members, and not just yourself. With all the available forms of RR out there, I don't think it would be game breaking to allow this to target your party members.

You can't use the PB, If you're KO'd. It's intended use is for Party Members.

[Genoxd]

You can't use the PB, If you're KO'd. It's intended use is for Party Members.

Reraise is applied before you die.

[Zeargi]

Reraise is applied before you die.
Correct, but when he originally wrote it, it was put as Raise, not Reraise

[FaeQueenCory]

Um, last I checked that wasn't ping. I believe that's how much data has been sent and received over some period of time.

And there's something wrong with your connection if you're getting a 1 second ping. When I ping yahoo.co.jp I get an average time of 123ms.
>_<
Arguing that it's 100% client side when no where in this world is anything perfect..... Let alone does anything ever start at 0.00...
This is an absurd argument.
1s is going to cover everything. Your fingers reaching for the keys, the server being dumb, your computer being dumb, a satellite being dumb, the internet being dumb... DEAR GOD are there so many variables that make your "always 0.23s" utter BS..

Or maybe you just live in the Pleroma...
But for us lowly mortals that have to deal with mundanities called imperfection..... I could see how you would believe that any delay would be 100% client... What with living in the World of Forms after all.

[Damane]

Sure, instead of at least trying to heal with Carbuncle we'll just let people die and Raise them with Cait Sith! Ahah
Not gonna happen, unless she gets Erase(ga) and Cure(ga) that don't suck.

Removing the retarded penalty of Avatar's Favor is long overdue. If anything, the favor should be an automatic aura the Avatar has upon summoning (that affects the avatar itself). No more resets with BPs and scaling in power with time and no more -Atk/MAB. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I don't think we really need more damaging Blood Pacts, let lv70 physical BPs scale better with levels and I'd be fine. Magic damage is ok now, even if less seconds on the BP timer would be even better.
Also, remove lunar phase and time of day shenanigans from Fenrir and Diabolos (and make Wards like Noctoshield and Dream Shroud scale better with level/smn. magic).

We've been saying these things for years now, looking at what we're getting with Cait Sith makes me think the dev has no clue whatsoever.

Fixing Avatar's Favour would actually really push SMN in a very different and positiv direction:
- enlarge the radious form 10 feet to 25 feet so you dont have to send your avatar in if you dont want to (if you are buffing melees)
- remove the BP penalty
- make the favour autocap right at start instead building up for 3 min until your avatar dies... over and over and over again or you use a BP.

the buffs are very nice, they just are useless, because: 1. you need to build them up and 2. your avatar has to be in range of people (so possible in range of melees/mobs) which means your avatar will die fast, which means you have to build the favour up again....
It is one buff an avatar's favour offers vs I dont know how many buffs other jobs can hand out. I dont see any problem with the changes I suggested, it surely wouldnt break the job...

[Zeargi]

Fixing Avatar's Favour would actually really push SMN in a very different and positiv direction:
- enlarge the radious form 10 feet to 25 feet so you dont have to send your avatar in if you dont want to (if you are buffing melees)
- remove the BP penalty
- make the favour autocap right at start instead building up for 3 min until your avatar dies... over and over and over again or you use a BP.

the buffs are very nice, they just are useless, because: 1. you need to build them up and 2. your avatar has to be in range of people (so possible in range of melees/mobs) which means your avatar will die fast, which means you have to build the favour up again....
It is one buff an avatar's favour offers vs I dont know how many buffs other jobs can hand out. I dont see any problem with the changes I suggested, it surely wouldnt break the job...

To tack onto this further, SMN is one of those jobs that could GREATLY benefit from the ability 'Stay'

[Pawlie]

They really need to add more to the -BP timers first off, and also I think a great addition to gear for SMN would be a sort of 'Enhances "Bloodpact: ward" effect'.

Also I think it would be appropriate to be more specific with avatar physical attack. We have gear for "Avatar/Pet magic attack bonus" for their elemental BPs and "Inc. BP dmg" for both phys and elemental. I have a seperate Phys. Dmg set but I dont know if its for while the avatar is meleeing or for when it uses a physical BP.

[Olor]

Or they could just make the avatar favor a native effect when you summon the avatar, instead of making a pet action with a useless penalty, also the favors should effect the avatar.

yeah I'd like to see the penalty removed. It's not like SMN is overpowered.

[Brightshadow]

Anyways to get the thread back on the topic of Cait Sith, I wonder why Cait Sith feels a lot like what Phoenix would have been, I think perhaps since Cait Sith impressed the goddess she infused into Cait a portion of phoenix soul to replace her as the terrestrial avatar of life.

So maybe Cait Sith is a new terrestrial avatar?

[MakkotoParinne]

Spoilers for WotG. D:




According to the story, when Lehko was killed by Shikaree G, he was revived (hence the Raise/Reraise/Arise abilities) by the nonphysical/spiritual form of Cait Sith Deich, who then left him after defeating Fenrir/Robel-Akbel/Karaha-Baruha.

That's what I thought after we were shown the Blood Pacts, at least.

[FaeQueenCory]

Not to mention that She is the Tears of the Goddess.
And the Tears of the Goddess were tasked to revitalize (revive) the dead future into one of prosperity (life).

EDIT: And everyone needs to get off this "zomg! She has revive!?!?! Phoenix!!!!!11!!1" cause... Last I checked... Reviving is only HALF of the Phoenix summons' effect...
Does no one remember the massive AoE fire damage?

[Brightshadow]

Not to mention that She is the Tears of the Goddess.
And the Tears of the Goddess were tasked to revitalize (revive) the dead future into one of prosperity (life).

EDIT: And everyone needs to get off this "zomg! She has revive!?!?! Phoenix!!!!!11!!1" cause... Last I checked... Reviving is only HALF of the Phoenix summons' effect...
Does no one remember the massive AoE fire damage?

While Cait Sith probably has nothing to do with Phoenix, Nobody cares about Phoenix fire effect in every Final Fantasy she has been well known for her AOE raise, and while yes fire does play a big part with Phoenix, Ifrit was always the go to fire elemental summon.

[Mnejing]

Now where is Atomos? Can Lilisette be freed from her fate in Wotg since Cait Sith can't?

[Calatilla]

To tack onto this further, SMN is one of those jobs that could GREATLY benefit from the ability 'Stay'

A snarl ability would be nice too, bst and pup have the ability to plant hate on their pets, SMN really needs this.

[Camate]

Greetings, everyone!


Now where is Atomos?
Atomos is on the way! Below is a message from Akihiko Matsui in regards to the plans for the vacuum-like avatar.



We’re planning to prepare new series of quests related to Wings of the Goddess where you can obtain Atomos as you progress through them. The new quests will involve not only Atomos, but Trust alter ego additions, and battle content that can be repeated similar to high-tier mission battlefields. We’ll be getting into the real work of this content in July of this year, and the content is quite hefty so we expect it to take a bit of time.

We’re planning to make Atomos similar to Odin and Alexander in that he will be an avatar that can be summoned only during Astral Flow. With Atomos’s special traits, we’d like his power to be another choice in the array of Astral Flow avatars.

[Mnejing]

Thanks for the reply! Will Cait Sith be receiving the rest of her blood pacts as well?

[Alhanelem]

To tack onto this further, SMN is one of those jobs that could GREATLY benefit from the ability 'Stay' Honestly it would probably benefit way too much, which is probably why the job doesn't have it.

[Calatilla]

Honestly it would probably benefit way too much, which is probably why the job doesn't have it.

How would smn benefit from a stay ability any more than bst? On its own stay is pretty irrelevant to smn, given a choice I would rather have a snarl ability. Getting hate from casting haste or refresh on myself right after my pet just dealt 9-10k damage to a mob isn't very nice. And SMN's are a lot more squishy than BST and PUP

[UltimaCJ]

Summoner has been one of the most shafted jobs there are MANY avatars the job could have, SE just has an "issue" "Implementing them"

[Zeargi]

How would smn benefit from a stay ability any more than bst? On its own stay is pretty irrelevant to smn, given a choice I would rather have a snarl ability. Getting hate from casting haste or refresh on myself right after my pet just dealt 9-10k damage to a mob isn't very nice. And SMN's are a lot more squishy than BST and PUP

Yes, a snarl ability to transfer hate would also be nice, and we could use it too. But Stay has 2 great applications. 1 it would allow us to to park the avatar in one spot, which once they fix avatar's favor would greatly help with the placement of said avatar. As you've already pointed out, we're not as HC as PUP or BST and standing close to a NM in most cases equals death for us. Stay gives a HP restoring effect which would be great as only a hand full of Avatars can heal themselves as is. The other thing is that Stay doesn't disengage the BSTs pet, which means that if we resummon and use stay, the avatar would also stay in one spot and still be aggressive, so it'd lend to greater ways to kite fight that SMN is so greatly known for. As it makes sure that YOU control the field and distance that you want to travel without having to push yourself into other areas that might not work for kiting, such as Fenrir's Battle as this zone is smaller that the others

[Alhanelem]

How would smn benefit from a stay ability any more than bst? On its own stay is pretty irrelevant to smn, given a choice I would rather have a snarl ability. Getting hate from casting haste or refresh on myself right after my pet just dealt 9-10k damage to a mob isn't very nice. And SMN's are a lot more squishy than BST and PUP
It makes SMN, who is already far better at pet kiting, more capable of doing so. And beyond this, it's not really needed. Stay has more uses on BST.


so it'd lend to greater ways to kite fight that SMN is so greatly known for.This is exactly why SMN will never have stay. It makes SMN better at something it's already better at compared to the other pet jobs.

Snarl would be even less likely to happen (as much as i would like to have such an ability) because SE likes to rain on our parades. Snarl would make it far easier to add melee DPS as SMN (though currently, it's harder than it used to be because pet hate has been so wonky since Seekers came out) and I don't think SE wants to make it easier for summoner pets to tank. They've basically been against that since the job came out.

(Note: I'm not saying I wouldn't want these abilities, because I would- but the reason I'd want them is the exact reason they won't happen)

[Babekeke]

(though currently, it's harder than it used to be because pet hate has been so wonky since Seekers came out))

And even more so since they nerfed hate through damage. Casting a simple spell can accrue way more enmity over your pet than it used to.