EXP x2 feels just right for 2014, but even more's needed (looking at you, lvl. 50-75)

[Edyth]

FFXI's leveling is very bottom-heavy (meaning, slow to start, but gets fast near the end) now that EXP parties start at level 75-ish.

My brother just joined the game, and soloing/duoing with him is enjoyable, but I think to myself, this would be tortuously slow if not for Double EXP.

Players these days don't have the patience, and with minimal interaction with other players at the low levels, the EXP gain really needs to be doubled so that new players can get into the more popular content and zones faster.

FoV and GoV experience bonuses should also be doubled (or at least FoV). When Page 3 in Valkurm Dunes gives 550 EXP, it's really not worth focusing on snippers and flies, considering one or two monsters give more than the page completion does.

Experience points should also be added to old quests and/or missions. So much of the new content has this, but almost none of the old content has it, when it's low-level content that needs it most.

Finally, the absurd jump in EXP required in the 50s needs to be reduced. It's okay for a big jump to come in the 70s when there's Abyssea content, but when you're in the 50s, soloing is extremely slow, and you suddenly need a ton more EXP per level. Being told, "Now that you're level 50, Abyssea leeching is your only option," is a major turn-off to many people, especially if they're leveling their first ever job in FFXI.

In summary, expedite the journey from levels 1-75 so that players can enjoy endgame content and player interaction sooner, and so that at level 50, players with some pride can keep that pride and earn their levels fairly.

[bungiefanNA]

Records of Eminence and Fov/GoV stack, and you have the EXP rings on top of that. EXP is not that slow anymore.

[Zarchery]

I got Samurai from 1 to 99 in, like 30 hours, solo, without Abyssea leeching. People need a little patience. Being 99 isn't all it's cracked up to be, and once you get there you'll most likely be excluded for not having the right job or the right equipment anyway.

[Olor]

I agree, the leveling curve from 50-75 is too steep. It's not nice at all. The trust NPCs etc, help but I don't see any reason to have such a big jump

[Xantavia]

Records of Eminence and Fov/GoV stack, and you have the EXP rings on top of that. EXP is not that slow anymore.
I was wondering why fields start at 500 xp for RoE, while dungeons only give 100. I finally figured it was changed to address the huge difference between FoV and GoV rewards.

Being somebody who has leveled at least 10 jobs solo 1-80/90, solo xp is not that bad at all. The bigger problem is the lack of variety in camps I have found in order to take advantage of page bonuses. Gustav tunnel > Labyrinth of O > Fei'Yin got really old.

[sc4500]

Exp gain is ok as it is to a point. It allow newer players to learn the game some what. If anything, It would be better if in a party of 4 or more or alliance and in FoV and GoV. The book page will give double or triple the exp and maybe eliminate the level cap quests to lv70. To allow more socializing. If they were to get to crazy, Then why not just have everyone start out as lv75 or lv99.

How small the game is now, most new players I am sure got a few friends that got them into the game before they even started. Even if brand new, person more and likely look up the info on the game and if they try really hard they be at 99 in a week, if casual 2 weeks to a month for a first job.

[Eyeballed]

Are you kidding OP? Why not just ask, (like the poster above), just to start the game at cap? How many hand-outs does this game need? How many are even left to give?

[Anjou]

The only thing I want, is for this current exp to stay as it is, when it starts back at the original value, then we'll see just how steep everything truly is.

[Demonjustin]

Are you kidding OP? Why not just ask, (like the poster above), just to start the game at cap? How many hand-outs does this game need? How many are even left to give?The game is boring leveling to 99 alone, even with the Trust NPCs, which they do not guide you to, the game can not be very fun to just jump into and start playing in an enjoyable way. They give us Double XP so often it is starting not to matter if they keep it anyways, but there is not a single reason not to. You can claim its a hand out or makes it too easy, but so what? The point of the game is to play with others, or at least enjoy the game, no one at all is in lower level areas practically, and its hard to enjoy the game when you are basically told that before you even have the real option to play with others without being worthless, you have to go level up for a few days. You can say it doesn't take a few days, but without Double XP, yes, 50+ slows you down big time, Limit Breaks too if you're inexperienced, what's wrong with helping out new or leveling players? Really?

[Eyeballed]

The game is boring leveling to 99 alone, even with the Trust NPCs, which they do not guide you to, the game can not be very fun to just jump into and start playing in an enjoyable way. They give us Double XP so often it is starting not to matter if they keep it anyways, but there is not a single reason not to. You can claim its a hand out or makes it too easy, but so what? The point of the game is to play with others, or at least enjoy the game, no one at all is in lower level areas practically, and its hard to enjoy the game when you are basically told that before you even have the real option to play with others without being worthless, you have to go level up for a few days. You can say it doesn't take a few days, but without Double XP, yes, 50+ slows you down big time, Limit Breaks too if you're inexperienced, what's wrong with helping out new or leveling players? Really?

I forget, is this or is this not an MMORPG where at least hundreds of other players exist to join you on your quest to reach level cap? What's wrong with smashing the gas on everything is that there is a game that does exist before Lv99, and it is there for a reason. These games weren't meant to be soloed to cap, weren't meant for much at all to be soloed within reason. The more people keep asking for this to be destroyed the more this game and the more these types of game die.

[Demonjustin]

I forget, is this or is this not an MMORPG where at least hundreds of other players exist to join you on your quest to reach level cap? What's wrong with smashing the gas on everything is that there is a game that does exist before Lv99, and it is there for a reason. These games weren't meant to be soloed to cap, weren't meant for much at all to be soloed within reason. The more people keep asking for this to be destroyed the more this game and the more these types of game die.The game population is already to low and the player levels to high to truly support a fun and entertaining game at lower levels. If we had people coming in high numbers or even decent numbers to play the game, that would be one thing, but we just flat out don't. There are not enough people in lower levels to truly justify keeping new players stuck there for prolonged periods of time anymore because the population is not located in those locations, instead, they are at level 99 fighting things there.

Another decently aged MMO, which closed down about a year or 2 ago I believe, was Phantasy Star Universe, they added both low and high level content and never really made it all to easy or fast to level up to higher levels past the rate it was normally, but at the same time, everyone was in the higher end areas and hardly anyone in lower level areas to the point everyone normally had to solo until level 50~60. There were not enough people joining the game to form groups to level with, instead, you often ended up alone and soloing until you reached the higher level areas where people were at. Mind you, this game was vastly different than FFXI, but the principle idea is the same, when a game ages to the point of having few new players joining the game you reach a point where the level speed needs enhanced to accommodate new players so that they can play with others more easily. As you said, there are hundreds of other players to join my in my quest to do things, but whats it matter when everyone else is miles ahead of me in level and I will have to reach level 99 either way before I can really play with them?

[Eyeballed]

Are you saying that nobody is doing Abyssea worm parties on your server nowadays? Soloing to 50 is relatively easy, (which I believe is the start of the contention), and a lot of people go there well before Lv50. They don't need to buff the EXP rate; What they feckin' need to do is merge the *bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep* servers!

[Demonjustin]

Are you saying that nobody is doing Abyssea worm parties on your server nowadays? Soloing to 50 is relatively easy, (which I believe is the start of the contention), and a lot of people go there well before Lv50. They don't need to buff the EXP rate; What they feckin' need to do is merge the *bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep* servers!People do worms still, but if thats the argument you're going to bank on you're essentially saying rather than people leveling outside of Abyssea/Leeching, and having a higher XP Rate, we should instead count on people leeching and just leave the issue as it is. To me, thats a horrible argument, thats basically saying we shouldn't increase XP outside of Abyssea because everyone should just leech in Abyssea instead.

Also, merging solves nothing in this instance, limited people are joining the game in any event, merging it will helps it, but solves nothing, because the limited amount will still be limited and people will still often be stuck leveling alone. All parties for XP are dead besides Worms, Worms themselves are often dead last I knew but I think that may have picked up some with the requirement of Merits we now have for Ark Angel fights.

[Eyeballed]

People do worms still, but if thats the argument you're going to bank on you're essentially saying rather than people leveling outside of Abyssea/Leeching, and having a higher XP Rate, we should instead count on people leeching and just leave the issue as it is. To me, thats a horrible argument, thats basically saying we shouldn't increase XP outside of Abyssea because everyone should just leech in Abyssea instead.

Also, merging solves nothing in this instance, limited people are joining the game in any event, merging it will helps it, but solves nothing, because the limited amount will still be limited and people will still often be stuck leveling alone. All parties for XP are dead besides Worms, Worms themselves are often dead last I knew but I think that may have picked up some with the requirement of Merits we now have for Ark Angel fights.

Wait a minute, you're saying that EXP parties outside of worms are dead, and those are dead because of worm parties (and book-burns) to begin with? You know why all of that is dead? Because people wanted more, More, MORE! ...And now that many people have most jobs they want at cap, there's nobody left to play with - worm parties or otherwise. Anyhow, yes, I am saying that you should be left to keying boxes (not leeching, there's a difference) 'till Lv80 or so because that's what people asked for to begin with.

[Demonjustin]

Wait a minute, you're saying that EXP parties outside of worms are dead, and those are dead because of worm parties (and book-burns) to begin with?Not those specifically, no, its a matter of time along with those things. Even if we leveled slowly few people after a point would be leveling new jobs and unless there was a constant influx of new players coming into the game or people leveling new jobs, which at slower speeds is less unlikely to happen, the end result is roughly the same. Go back to level 75 days and people only leveled a couple jobs, not every job, because of the time it took, if we had that same speed today it would be no different, people would have 2~3 jobs on average most likely and the leveling issue would remain as it is right now.


people wanted more, More, MORE! ...And now that many people have most jobs they want at cap, there's nobody left to play with - worm parties or otherwise.Well at 99 there are, lower levels there aren't no but at the same time like I explained thats a matter of time, you need new players or old players going back to low levels in order to keep lower levels lively, without that its not really possible.


Anyhow, yes, I am saying that you should be left to keying boxes (not leeching, there's a difference) 'till Lv80 or so because that's what people asked for to begin with.Which makes no real sense. Your argument is the equal to saying that they should not increase XP because they already have a fast place to level where they hardly do anything, and thus those who want an engaging yet fast leveling system should not get one and instead should be forced to just go key or leech. To me, that argument is foolish and makes no sense, obviously there are people who want to XP outside of Abyssea, doing something involving, but at the same time they do not want to spend so long leveling, I see no reason why it either has to be keying, leeching, or spending longer leveling, and why we can not just have faster XP outside of Abyssea permanently and all be happy. :confused:

[Eyeballed]

Not those specifically, no, its a matter of time along with those things. Even if we leveled slowly few people after a point would be leveling new jobs and unless there was a constant influx of new players coming into the game or people leveling new jobs, which at slower speeds is less unlikely to happen, the end result is roughly the same. Go back to level 75 days and people only leveled a couple jobs, not every job, because of the time it took, if we had that same speed today it would be no different, people would have 2~3 jobs on average most likely and the leveling issue would remain as it is right now.

Well at 99 there are, lower levels there aren't no but at the same time like I explained thats a matter of time, you need new players or old players going back to low levels in order to keep lower levels lively, without that its not really possible.

Which makes no real sense. Your argument is the equal to saying that they should not increase XP because they already have a fast place to level where they hardly do anything, and thus those who want an engaging yet fast leveling system should not get one and instead should be forced to just go key or leech. To me, that argument is foolish and makes no sense, obviously there are people who want to XP outside of Abyssea, doing something involving, but at the same time they do not want to spend so long leveling, I see no reason why it either has to be keying, leeching, or spending longer leveling, and why we can not just have faster XP outside of Abyssea permanently and all be happy. :confused:

It makes sense to me because a fast-track to 99 is already in place; One that destroyed the slow, social pace that once was. What you're asking is to turn what's left that defines this game as an MMO into what makes it an online RPG. Killing it. Don't you see?

[Demonjustin]

It makes sense to me because a fast-track to 99 is already in place; One that destroyed the slow, social pace that once was. What you're asking is to turn what's left that defines this game as an MMO into what makes it an online RPG. Killing it. Don't you see?Apparently no, I do not, I see little point in leaving the XP rate slow for the non-existent amount of people who go through it rather than increasing the rate so that people can get through it easier.

I also think you're confusing the idea of what a MMO is though, no matter what your personal idea of a MMO is, its a Massively Multiplayer Online game, which is a fairly broad term, but the part that makes this a MMO is the Massively Multiplayer part of it, Multiplayer implies multiple people able to play together, Massively implies many many people, where in this game are there many many people? The answer is, level 99 areas, namely Adoulin and Abyssea, the most popular 2 areas in the entire game, with side old areas like SKCNMs, Ark Angel Battlefields in Sky, Legion, Limbus, Salvage, and Einherjar.

The only place that fits the true term of MMO, would be Adoulin, shooters for instance, are not MMOs, they go up to 24~32 in many of them, this implies to be Massive, you must go above 32 people at very least, 1 Alliance for Divine Might II or Abyssea would still be only 18 people, Legion at its best is 36, these pieces of content are not fulfilling the Massive part of a MMO, only Adoulin really does. Now you can argue that the game is still a MMO outside of Adoulin because of the amount of people that play it but really more people play Ghosts than play this and its still a shooter, not a MMO(Shooters can be MMOs too) which I hope makes my point clear.

Lastly, it seems to me that an Online RPG would be what you are looking at now, rather than what it would become. I am talking about changing it so there is a higher level of interaction with other players by accelerating the speed at which we level to enable players to reach the area where the majority of players are, more easily. However, an Online RPG seems to me as though it would be a RPG with online capabilities, which is what it seems anyways, because without that accelerated speed your regulating people to a slower speed where they will take even longer to get to that point where they are playing it with real multiplayer, instead, having to solo for the most part till that point, which sounds more RPG like to me than MMO.

[Eyeballed]

Apparently no, I do not, I see little point in leaving the XP rate slow for the non-existent amount of people who go through it rather than increasing the rate so that people can get through it easier.

I also think you're confusing the idea of what a MMO is though, no matter what your personal idea of a MMO is, its a Massively Multiplayer Online game, which is a fairly broad term, but the part that makes this a MMO is the Massively Multiplayer part of it, Multiplayer implies multiple people able to play together, Massively implies many many people, where in this game are there many many people? The answer is, level 99 areas, namely Adoulin and Abyssea, the most popular 2 areas in the entire game, with side old areas like SKCNMs, Ark Angel Battlefields in Sky, Legion, Limbus, Salvage, and Einherjar.

The only place that fits the true term of MMO, would be Adoulin, shooters for instance, are not MMOs, they go up to 24~32 in many of them, this implies to be Massive, you must go above 32 people at very least, 1 Alliance for Divine Might II or Abyssea would still be only 18 people, Legion at its best is 36, these pieces of content are not fulfilling the Massive part of a MMO, only Adoulin really does. Now you can argue that the game is still a MMO outside of Adoulin because of the amount of people that play it but really more people play Ghosts than play this and its still a shooter, not a MMO(Shooters can be MMOs too) which I hope makes my point clear.

Lastly, it seems to me that an Online RPG would be what you are looking at now, rather than what it would become. I am talking about changing it so there is a higher level of interaction with other players by accelerating the speed at which we level to enable players to reach the area where the majority of players are, more easily. However, an Online RPG seems to me as though it would be a RPG with online capabilities, which is what it seems anyways, because without that accelerated speed your regulating people to a slower speed where they will take even longer to get to that point where they are playing it with real multiplayer, instead, having to solo for the most part till that point, which sounds more RPG like to me than MMO.

And my point is EXP doubled, as it usually is now, is plenty of EXP to get to 50 in a day, where you can then go to Abyssea and key, and then the next day be at cap -- IF being at cap is what you're most concerned with, then obviously this is the route you'll take anyhow and not soloing with 2-3 NPC's in tow.

[Demonjustin]

Not entirely true, a brand new player wouldnt know about Abyssea or anything of the sort I would assume, which leaves them just as dead in the water. I am more worried about new players coming to this game than the current players, because at the rate SE is going they are trying to improve it for everyone, including new players, but they still have little to do with others till that point.

[Anjou]

to be honest I agree with Demonjustin on this one because I have seen just how dead worm parties are nowadays. If those end up dying out, then SE needs to keep the exp as it is, yeah it'll be grindy, but won't the -quality- of the player's skills be a little better as they didn't key boxes until lvl 80 Eyeballed? Yes they will, and it gives them plenty of time to farm up stuff while they level, shoot if they need to, they can trade their sparks for weapons and either NPC them or do w/e they want, either way when it comes right down to it, the EXP rate right now needs to stay as is, there's no need to change it back on the 14th of January, and when people wake up and grind EXP, now knowing how little they are working for in their leveling spurts, then they'll start to wonder if playing is really worth it.

[Eyeballed]

Maybe you're right, but also maybe people will take the fastest route possible, when possible, to Abyssea worm parties. Nothing will match it, and people will typically take the path of least resistance.

[lllen]

Having join the game quite a few years ago, I came up the hard way, everyone wanted my RDM, lvl'd Whm to sub level,it was tortuous as a BLM but there was a great solo guide out at the time and I made it to 75. BLU was a great job to solo up because alot of it was done getting spells (no one really wanted a BLU in a party and esp end game, I don't think they understood it). But and this is a big thing, you learned to play the job and you skilled up at the same time, you got the equipment for lvl 50's (AF), 75 (relic gear) then the endgame gear in sky, sea, limbus etc... and was so happy when Campaign started, those Die-namis runs where you lost 2 days worth of exp'ing very quickly on BLM 2 times a week, Campaign allowed at the time the fastest 2nd only to a Merit party (who wouldn't allow Blm's) to get exp.

I now have every job except the 2 new ones and 2 are 95ish (I just don't like them) to 99. Abyssea allowed this to happen, my skill levels sucked and I didn't really know one ability from another. So I concentrated on one job at a time for Aby like the all powerful NIN I went and got all my procs for red, blue and yellow which meant learning to play /dnc and /war, and getting all my red and blue procs helped on other weapons. I have Mnk as my main since Adoulin, Nin is hiding with my RDM in MH. I guess what I'm trying to say, it is a lot of fun having not to slave to 75 in the dunes and in the same breath, I miss the dunes parties then to the Jungle then to Quifim. The amount of time learning the skills and finesse necessary takes time and with help from things like squirmishes and WKR's and my friends it can be done.

It also helped with Nin to have a great mentor who would explain Nin to me (via Skype) as we fought, he was on NIN and I on whm or thf (my other abyssea job). But there are so many options now, I'm lvl'ing a mule from lvl 3 and having a blast, I got to 20 in one night just using the new Eminence quests.

I think they are getting to good place with the game it still needs work, based on the players we have to day. Older players don't have the time now they had when 17 or 18...now they are 28 with a partner/spouse, kids and a job but many still get on and play around rl issues. I really don't think the young people of today would put up with the grinding we did 8-11 years ago, I for one felt freedom when Abyssea came out. Adoulin there is time for me to accomplish something in an hour and a half when I drink my coffee in the morning before work. I can go at it on my days off or at night. If there is one thing I wish would steady up is the gear...I no sooner get good gear then better comes out, but if you look it, there is decent gear for everyone to obtain not just the crazy ones like me who use to do 2 dynas, 2 limbus, 2 sea runs, 2 sky runs etc each and every week years ago, I had one night off a week if I was lucky or get to bed at a reasonable time....and it never got me my W. Legs, lol.

[Rwolf]

EXP and the typical MMORPG grind isn't dying in this game. It's already at home in bed, passed away in its sleep.

After Abyssea upheaved the entire prior system, we are left with this aftermath. You have two options as a new player. Solo mostly to 99 with the tools available (Fields/Grounds of Valor, Trust, Records of Eminence) or Abyssea leech (which is what you'll be doing as you won't start out with cruor for keys). Both of these are pretty absurd for a new player starting out. Resistance to this way of thinking is holding on to a time when the game flourished a lot more and it was a lot easier to find groups in an enjoyable casual setting. Which is also the other side that "against change" players forget.

Looking at a new player. The current system expects them to go through a lot of research into learning player-based workarounds like Abyssea leeching just to grind up. Which most of it isn't really gratifying and a good sense of progression. They don't learn the job they are playing any more than if they leveled up faster. There is also the hurdle of how boring it is to do so much initial research and work versus exploration and gradual learning. Which can be off-putting and cause some to quit just because none of what is described as our current player-expected leveling system is really a MMORPG setting.

I don't think as drastically as level 99 should be handed on a silver platter but I do agree that EXP required per level is due to change. But I believe that's only part of a solution. Records of Eminence and Trust are great systems they have implemented. I think if they take the time to rework the initial character introduction quests (adventurer coupon) to include these two systems after it. It would encourage players to explore more about their job and feel a sense of progression through learning the game.

Records of Eminence tutorial section could be expanded to include:

Obtain a linkpearl.
Job specific goals. (Example: Corsair can ask you to roll 11 x amount of times to learn how to work with the probability of busting and learning how 11 grants you a bonus to Phantom Roll/Bust)
Exploration goals. (Visiting an area to gain exp, a lot of modern MMO's do this to encourage exploration of the world)
Obtaining a chocobo license. (Seeing as soon as you visit Jeuno you could really just touch a Home Point)
Participation in active events. (Beseiged, Campaign)
More level-sync or party goals.


Grinding/progression doesn't need to go away entirely. It just needs to be renewed. Honestly in my personal opinion, I think they should still impose a level cap on Abyssea to 75 and remove the ability to alliance and do FoV/GoV pages. It would piss off a lot of current players off but it would also give new players someone to interact with. And with new systems to alleviate EXP, it wouldn't be all that bad in my opinion.

We can't complain that new players have it hard and no one is joining the game, yet hold to the ideals that we as veterans should have it easier (via afking in Abyssea/FoV/GoV).

[Demonjustin]

Another thing that would help new players today would be an edit to the original CSs you get when you start. Throwing in some dialog that explains where the gate helper NPCs are, the ones who tell you about crafting, food, WSs, those guys, an explanation of them and their pos would be awesome. At the same time, Records should be explained by the gate helpers, and at the end of the gate helper 'quests' they should tell you about Trust, and the location for the NPC to start Trust in that city.

[Eyeballed]

Okay OP, because I like to solo, I took my WHM 50 out to Zi'Tah just to see how fast or slow EXP went on one of the hardest jobs to solo effectively. I went from Lv50 to 51 (7,800 EXP) in about 45 minutes. I did this without any pages or book buffs, without any additional NPC's, and without any type of EXP boosting. I was able to do this for many reasons:

- All appropriate skills are capped.
- My gear is appropriate.
- I use food.
- I use an appropriate subjob.
- I know where to best camp for my setup.

Now, say I did everything I could to max EXP/hr, and I suppose I could have gotten that level in about 20min or less. You realize if we go any faster, we'd potentially have to carry 2-3 weapons and maybe even 2-3 sets of gear on our person just to suffice the massive level gaps we'd be producing in such a short time.

[Rwolf]

Okay OP, because I like to solo, I took my WHM 50 out to Zi'Tah just to see how fast or slow EXP went on one of the hardest jobs to solo effectively. I went from Lv50 to 51 (7,800 EXP) in about 45 minutes. I did this without any pages or book buffs, without any additional NPC's, and without any type of EXP boosting. I was able to do this for many reasons:

- All appropriate skills are capped.
- My gear is appropriate.
- I use food.
- I use an appropriate subjob.
- I know where to best camp for my setup.

Now, say I did everything I could to max EXP/hr, and I suppose I could have gotten that level in about 20min or less. You realize if we go any faster, we'd potentially have to carry 2-3 weapons and maybe even 2-3 sets of gear on our person just to suffice the massive level gaps we'd be producing in such a short time.

If you took your WHM out recently you're getting Double EXP campaign, so you would be getting an EXP boost. For a new player, all your skills are not likely capped, especially on WHM soloing. You would never cure or enfeeble yourself enough to see a capped rate the higher you go (especially over 250). Also new players won't always know where the best camps are now. This is something that's learned by people who solo a lot through trial and error. You like to solo so this probably isn't detrimental to you. However, when you're looking at it from a generic outside just got here perspective. It can be really boring, lonely and confusing for most new players who didn't join a game to be isolated for a prolonged time.

Even when EXP parties were in their prime, lots of players did not bring multiple sets of gear even though they were making quick progress. Is it useful and efficient? Yes. Necessary? No. The game is closing on 12 years old. The community of new players is small and the EXP grind is heavy. Which is why most have in the past few years just grinded jobs in Abyssea as keyers/leechers. New players were encouraged to do so as well as veteran players. And this was before the server decline when there were more players to play with.

While there will always be some solo players who would like to preserve the grind because they like to solo. This however discourages a lot of new players to join who are forced into learn to enjoy solo grinding or find a way to join Abyssea to leech (no keys yet). I think the solo community has tons of things to enjoy soloing in this game other than EXP. Opening this up however will alleviate what makes this unattractive to newer players who enter a game to only see most of them are already at cap on multiple jobs. I've seen new players discouraged that they did all this hard grinding because they didn't want to leech, only to find out they didn't level one of the handful of jobs desired. So to get gear for the job they love, they have to go back and do the solo grind again or drop their morals to leech exp.

Grinding/progression doesn't need to go away entirely. It just needs to be set in a more attractive manner befitting a group-oriented game that's 12 years old and not retaining new subscribers.

[Eyeballed]

Snip.

Regarding your first sentence, let me reiterate: I didn't self-apply any boosting effects of any sort outside of food.

I think the overwhelming point regarding a lot of players new and old is that they're just not bothered to put any effort into this 12 year old game. Trial and error is how you learn; it's how I learned, and if I didn't explore and do a little research I wouldn't know. If I didn't know, I asked my Linkshell or friends for advice.

Many times I've seen new players quit when they realized that they would have to level a second job from Lv1 as a subjob. That was unfathomable to them. I recently had a newbie Lv99 THF spamming the orcs in Monastic Cavern for money. When I came back to the game last year after a 3 year break, I had to basically re-learn everything from the beginning. Of course I knew the basics, but which jobs were favorable, which camps to grind and what makes money... all of that I had to research and learn again.

Even now I'm standing in town yelling for gear for my WHM. I'm willing to and it does work, but you have to be persistent and patient. Maybe I should write a newbie's guide to FFXI 2014...

[vienne]

Maybe I should write a newbie's guide to FFXI 2014...

I think thats an excellent idea. I've played for 6 years straight every day but always with a limited time, the last 2 years i've been on and off though, play two months, quit two months. Every time I pick up the game I feel lost, i get behind with the content and have a hard time picking up the thread.
Over the years SE has added so much content that i cant tell where the head is and where the tail, I can only imagine what a fresh green leaf thinks when they pick up this game.

[Camiie]

Maybe I should write a newbie's guide to FFXI 2014...

You should, because if you want people to play to your standards then you need to put forth some effort to help them get there. That's the problem with veteran players these days. They want skilled playmates handed to them for free. They're lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations. They've forgotten about the veterans and fellow players who helped them get where they are. It's an MMORPG. If you want people to play the game with, then YOU need to go play the game with them.

[Eyeballed]

You should, because if you want people to play to your standards then you need to put forth some effort to help them get there. That's the problem with veteran players these days. They want skilled playmates handed to them for free. They're lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations. They've forgotten about the veterans and fellow players who helped them get where they are. It's an MMORPG. If you want people to play the game with, then YOU need to go play the game with them.

Sorry? I help every person new and old that I possibly can - especially newbies. A lazy spirit wouldn't even entertain the idea of taking their time out to write a guide to help others. On the other hand, I wasn't referring to needing a hand with a mission/quest/NM. I was talking about general knowledge of the game. That is something that is hard to explain and often can't be taught in the degree it needs to be learned through experience and will to venture out on their own.

[Rwolf]

Regarding your first sentence, let me reiterate: I didn't self-apply any boosting effects of any sort outside of food.

I'm not nitpicking your post, hopefully that's not what you thought. I'm only stating it cannot used to defend the current exp system if you're getting double exp. It only reinforces the OP's suggestion.


I think the overwhelming point regarding a lot of players new and old is that they're just not bothered to put any effort into this 12 year old game. Trial and error is how you learn; it's how I learned, and if I didn't explore and do a little research I wouldn't know. If I didn't know, I asked my Linkshell or friends for advice.

Many times I've seen new players quit when they realized that they would have to level a second job from Lv1 as a subjob. That was unfathomable to them. I recently had a newbie Lv99 THF spamming the orcs in Monastic Cavern for money. When I came back to the game last year after a 3 year break, I had to basically re-learn everything from the beginning. Of course I knew the basics, but which jobs were favorable, which camps to grind and what makes money... all of that I had to research and learn again.

Even now I'm standing in town yelling for gear for my WHM. I'm willing to and it does work, but you have to be persistent and patient. Maybe I should write a newbie's guide to FFXI 2014...

Trial and error was fine back then. The pace of the game was much slower. Airships and chocobos vs. Teleporting. Peak hours had 5 times as many players on most servers than now. Beginner linkshells and shouts were a lot more common. EXP rate and parties existed so you had weeks/months to learn the job and proper etiquette.

MMO's evolve and change to fit the needs of the many. I think writing a guide is an excellent idea if you want people to pick up the old system. However, it doesn't change anything for the current issue. I won't speak as if I know what's going on in your server but it's rare for me to see on Bismarck many GoV parties going on and usually it's 2-4 people if that.

The basics was all you need to get back into the game. You knew where to start looking, you knew what you needed to focus on. Experience points does not equal gamer experience. Old grinds are alleviated over time as new content is released and player focus shifts. That's just the nature of an MMO. In that way of line of thinking that it's lazy to alleviate older systems because someone doesn't learn what use to be, might as well reverse all the other changes the game made.

If they are going to keep bringing this Double EXP campaign back, they might as well adjust the EXP system. Though I think the suggestions in my earlier post are better than just giving EXP flat out. As a game designer, it's not lazy to create systems that teach you how to play a game, it's game design 101. Incentives are not laziness. The game will not be held to you on a platter, leveling up is only a fraction of the game after almost 12 years.

[Camiie]

I see so many veterans complaining about how easy things are these days and how bonuses and NPCs should be removed or nerfed and that newbs should have to learn things the way the vets did. Well guess what? They can't! There's no one out there to party with! There's no one out there to show them the ropes! There's not enough new players and there are ZERO vets out there in the Newblands. They have to solo with their NPCs! They need the bonuses to make up for the slow kill speeds! They can't level and learn the same way we did! Even if everything else were the same THERE ARE NO PEOPLE! If you want to change it then get off the forums and get out there! Take some newbs under your wings! If you aren't willing to do so then stop complaining and accept your role as part of the problem.

[stealth_gamer]

You should, because if you want people to play to your standards then you need to put forth some effort to help them get there. That's the problem with veteran players these days. They want skilled playmates handed to them for free. They're lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations. They've forgotten about the veterans and fellow players who helped them get where they are. It's an MMORPG. If you want people to play the game with, then YOU need to go play the game with them.

Sorry, but I think you've got it backwards there :p If anything, it's the "casual" players that are the ones that want things handed to them, and are also the ones that are lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations (most of them also have bad attitudes and unwarranted senses of entitlement, but that's another thread altogether :p )

I am the leader of a linkshell on Cerberus called Obsolution (http://www.ffxiah.com/linkshell/Cerberus/Obsolution) that I created mostly to help "casual" players do "old" things that nobody really does anymore and help them (and me I suppose too :D ) experience most of the full game and get them prepared for things like Delve and so on.

Over the years my linkshell has grown and had many successes throughout the years, but now it's pretty much dead and nothing I've been able to do as far as recruiting/event planning/getting it off the ground again has been working, and honestly, its mostly the "casual player" to blame for that.

So how is it the "casual" players fault, you ask? Let me tell you the tale of... well, some guy who's name I can't even remember because I only knew him for about 5 minutes. :rolleyes: I give this guy a pearl, and he puts it on and we greet/welcome him. First thing he says (didn't even say "hello") is "can you guys get me an ukonvasara?" So I told him that we couldn't right away, but if he stuck around a little while that we would work on it for him. He dropped his pearl immediately.

Or a more recent example: I recruit this guy and the first thing that pops on our /l channel (why is it never "hello"??) is "u guys do delve?" I then proceeded to explain to him that we lost pretty much all of our members and that we didn't have the manpower to do delve as an LS at this time, and you know what he said to me? "ok, bye!"

So you see, the reason why it would appear that "veteran" players never help/don't want to help "casual" players, is that no matter what I, my linkshell, or anybody else, does to help them, its never enough for them. They want everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!! and even if you give it to them, they just want MORE! And if they don't get it, poof! So with this ungrateful attitude, is it really any surprise that most people don't want to bother with them?

As for the rest of your post, I know that I personally have never forgotten about the people that have helped me get to where I am at today (infact, I named my mules after a few of them lol :p ), nor have I forgotten about any of the people that I helped to get them to where THEY are today (something that today's solo-centric casual player has most likely never even done) So in closing I'd just like to say, that help IS out there for these people, they just don't want it. They'd rather just sit around and do nothing. Though, with stuff like the never-ending login campaigns, pre-made parties on demand, and the already super-boosted XP rate (not even counting Records of Eminence) can you really blame them?

[Camiie]

Sorry, but I think you've got it backwards there :p If anything, it's the "casual" players that are the ones that want things handed to them, and are also the ones that are lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations (most of them also have bad attitudes and unwarranted senses of entitlement, but that's another thread altogether :p )

No, veteran players also want things handed to them. They want new players to be created in their own image while exerting no effort of their own to ensure that happens, while requesting that new players not be allowed any shortcuts to make up for low server populations. The choices are, "Let the new people have their shortcuts." or "Take away the shortcuts and make up the difference as a community."



So you see, the reason why it would appear that "veteran" players never help/don't want to help "casual" players, is that no matter what I, my linkshell, or anybody else, does to help them, its never enough for them. They want everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!! and even if you give it to them, they just want MORE! And if they don't get it, poof! So with this ungrateful attitude, is it really any surprise that most people don't want to bother with them?

As for the rest of your post, I know that I personally have never forgotten about the people that have helped me get to where I am at today (infact, I named my mules after a few of them lol :p ), nor have I forgotten about any of the people that I helped to get them to where THEY are today (something that today's solo-centric casual player has most likely never even done) So in closing I'd just like to say, that help IS out there for these people, they just don't want it. They'd rather just sit around and do nothing. Though, with stuff like the never-ending login campaigns, pre-made parties on demand, and the already super-boosted XP rate (not even counting Records of Eminence) can you really blame them?

So then you should be fine with them having all the leveling and gearing shortcuts possible so you don't have to deal with them.

[stealth_gamer]

No, veteran players also want things handed to them. They want new players to be created in their own image while exerting no effort of their own to ensure that happens, while requesting that new players not be allowed any shortcuts to make up for low server populations. The choices are, "Let the new people have their shortcuts." or "Take away the shortcuts and make up the difference as a community."

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there. Now I can't speak for all "veteran" players obviously, but at least for me (and the few remaining people in my ls lol) we (at least try?) to make effort to get newer and "casual" people to get to where they've gotta be. The problem? They dont want "help", they want "people to do it for them" (although, this is just as much SE's fault as it is their's) As for "shortcuts", that'd be fine I suppose (at least for xping), but where does it end? If everything in the game is "a shortcut" that takes a lot away from the game, no?



So then you should be fine with them having all the leveling and gearing shortcuts possible so you don't have to deal with them.

Wrong again :p I "Want" to deal with these people, if I didn't, I wouldn't have created a linkshell with the sole purpouse of helping them would I? Problem is, thanks to all the "shortcuts" (with xp, and gear from eminence, etc.) there's just no need for THEM to deal with ME. It's a lot easier to summon kupipi than it is to deal with another human being(s), and that's a problem, both for them, and for me.

[Rwolf]

The problem with the community lies not with EXP changes, trust, etc. The problem is there is no restrictions or penalties and haven't been for years. Abyssea increased this "gimme/do it for me mentality" dramatically. By allowing people to join a group with no penalty from their level/skill/etc combined with EXP that left any other method so far behind, it was inefficient to NOT do it. Then this bled out of that area with Fields of Valor and Grounds of Valor once people found you could alliance and still get credit. So the way players learned to leech/poor teamwork/etc was emulated.

Alliance EXP was a horrible idea. It's really hard to hold anyone accountable for their actions. The ability for players to police themselves was removed. Now we have Trust which is basically so good there is less point to be in a group. None of this content is inherently bad, it's very enjoyable in fact. However they all have critical flaws that promote bad playing behavior. This is what creates that lazy do-it-all for me mentality.

FFXI has received shortcuts over the years, every MMO does this. It doesn't end. It changes constantly and forever as long as the servers are up. As more content is introduced, older content is alleviated. And when you have a top-heavy game like this, experience is alleviated.

I like alleviate versus shortcut because it sounds like it's cheapening the game. Opening Dynamis, Changes to Nyzul/Assault, Meeble Burrows, Mythic Changes, etc. etc. didn't cheapen the game. It made it more accessible.

If anything needs to change, it's how there is no EXP penalty to Trust but there is for EXP groups. If anything grouping with other players should add bonus exp. Abyssea and how you have the ability to enter at level 30 when there is almost zero (sans fishing) to really do in there effectively. How there is an EXP penalty for being in an alliance but there is no penalty to Fields of Valor/Grounds of Valor. Leaving the EXP system as it currently is does not encourage people to go research the game or become better. You either have those ideals already or you leech/shout/tell people to do stuff for you because the game encourages that.

There are smart evolving grinds and then there are just grinds for the sake of nostalgia.

[Camiie]

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there. Now I can't speak for all "veteran" players obviously, but at least for me (and the few remaining people in my ls lol) we (at least try?) to make effort to get newer and "casual" people to get to where they've gotta be. The problem? They dont want "help", they want "people to do it for them" (although, this is just as much SE's fault as it is their's) As for "shortcuts", that'd be fine I suppose (at least for xping), but where does it end? If everything in the game is "a shortcut" that takes a lot away from the game, no?

I dunno. Veteran players have been using shortcuts for years in endgame content. I'm not saying you personally are guilty of using cheats and exploits to get your shinies (though I'd say we've all benefited from them at least indirectly), but it's extremely hypocritical for a community that's taken shortcuts to victory at every turn to give new/returning players a hard time for taking full advantage the shortcuts that SE has implemented for them.


Wrong again :p I "Want" to deal with these people, if I didn't, I wouldn't have created a linkshell with the sole purpouse of helping them would I? Problem is, thanks to all the "shortcuts" (with xp, and gear from eminence, etc.) there's just no need for THEM to deal with ME. It's a lot easier to summon kupipi than it is to deal with another human being(s), and that's a problem, both for them, and for me.

Then maybe you need to market your linkshell differently. Offer people something Kupipi cannot, which is human interaction. Don't offer help up front, but instead offer a place to hang out and socialize. You'll still have a rocky road to be sure (don't want to be a Pollyanna here), but a linkshell built on personal bonds will accomplish more in the long run.

[Anjou]

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there. Now I can't speak for all "veteran" players obviously, but at least for me (and the few remaining people in my ls lol) we (at least try?) to make effort to get newer and "casual" people to get to where they've gotta be. The problem? They dont want "help", they want "people to do it for them" (although, this is just as much SE's fault as it is their's) As for "shortcuts", that'd be fine I suppose (at least for xping), but where does it end? If everything in the game is "a shortcut" that takes a lot away from the game, no?




Wrong again :p I "Want" to deal with these people, if I didn't, I wouldn't have created a linkshell with the sole purpouse of helping them would I? Problem is, thanks to all the "shortcuts" (with xp, and gear from eminence, etc.) there's just no need for THEM to deal with ME. It's a lot easier to summon kupipi than it is to deal with another human being(s), and that's a problem, both for them, and for me.

It matters not who is right and who is wrong, I've seen a LOT of veteran players thinking that they are entitled to something because of the time that they put in. Your statement regarding that is about as moot as a man's nipples, there's nothing to it. Your whole thing against casual players thinking things needs to be handed to them is also false, I recently came across a rookie on Ragnarok, and instead of asking for help, they only asked for some advice and did the work themself. The reason casuals and hardcores don't get along Stealth, is because hardcores think they are superior, and casuals have schedules IRL that they have to keep to.

There has to be shortcuts due to the low amount of people exp'ing, hell my server doesn't even do abyssea worm parties anymore! My friend got cut off from a faster trip to 99 and is contemplating leaving because of how it's just grind grind grind with nothing else but that until they hit the final level. Is that fair that they get cut off even further? No they never leeched their jobs, they are at lvl 76 right now, thanks to nobody but themselves, and yet people go "Oh that's not fun, NPC's make the game too easy" "Records of Eminence? More like Gimps of Eminence" Yeah that's nice hardcore community, just make it more miserable for a lvl 76 to lvl their jobs 1 by 1 to 99, I'd like to see -you- solo to 75, because I sure as hell remember you had -parties- to do it with.

[detlef]

When this double XP campaign ends, farming AA pops will be so painful.

[stealth_gamer]

It matters not who is right and who is wrong, I've seen a LOT of veteran players thinking that they are entitled to something because of the time that they put in. Your statement regarding that is about as moot as a man's nipples, there's nothing to it. Your whole thing against casual players thinking things needs to be handed to them is also false, I recently came across a rookie on Ragnarok, and instead of asking for help, they only asked for some advice and did the work themself. The reason casuals and hardcores don't get along Stealth, is because hardcores think they are superior, and casuals have schedules IRL that they have to keep to.

Sure, there is a lot of unwarranted entitlement coming from both sides, not going to disagree with you there. However, the majority of it is coming from the "casual" players. If the examples I listed in my previous post aren't enough to prove that, I could sit here all day long and post many, many more but that'd be a waste of time. And this is also all from one linkshell, on one server. The problem goes way farther than that, I assure you.

Actually, look no farther than your own post for another example: "Casuals have schedules IRL that they have to keep to" -- So basically what you're saying is: "I want delve boss drops/iLvl119 gear/etc. everything that the "veteran" players have... but I don't have time to actually set up runs/get the gear I need/level the jobs I need/do all the other things that these people did, so just make it easier for me!" -- The very definition of entitlement.



There has to be shortcuts due to the low amount of people exp'ing, hell my server doesn't even do abyssea worm parties anymore! My friend got cut off from a faster trip to 99 and is contemplating leaving because of how it's just grind grind grind with nothing else but that until they hit the final level. Is that fair that they get cut off even further? No they never leeched their jobs, they are at lvl 76 right now, thanks to nobody but themselves, and yet people go "Oh that's not fun, NPC's make the game too easy" "Records of Eminence? More like Gimps of Eminence" Yeah that's nice hardcore community, just make it more miserable for a lvl 76 to lvl their jobs 1 by 1 to 99, I'd like to see -you- solo to 75, because I sure as hell remember you had -parties- to do it with.

Firstly, you're making a lot of assumptions about me that are untrue :3 But, we'll get to that later :p

You say that there are no parties for anything anymore (which, is true) but, why is this? To understand why this is, you first have to look at all the reasons why people party up in the first place, then you can see how this situation was caused by the "casualization" of the game and "removing the grind". So then, why do (or, did??) people form parties:

XP (and later merit) parties: People no longer need to do this, because thanks to Abyssea, and later GoV and the boosted xp rates/double expierience campaigns (we haven't even gotten to trust yet) most people (even "casual players") are fully capped on XP and merits, therefore, they have no need to join a worm party, or any other kind of xp/merit gathering party. And even if they did, you can just do trust, because while being in a party with 2+ people penalizes your xp rate, trust npcs do not. Additionally, these parties were where most newer people got their first linkshell, which also explains (in part) why the majority of newer players are shell-less today (the rest being the rest of the "casualization" changes that caused them to not need one, which is making the game feel empty and why so many people are quitting now.)

Mission parties (nations/other storylines): Nobody is partying up for these anymore, because since anybody (even "casuals") can hit 99 in one day thanks to abyssea, and can be decked out in iLvl117 gear by the time they get there thanks to eminence, why bother doing them on-level (where you would need a team) when you could just wait the 1 day and just blast through it at iLvl117 (solo). The few instances where this wouldn't apply (nation mission 2-3/5-1 and ye olde CoP) already no longer apply due to the fact that the level caps were removed, because "casual" players were unwilling to put forth the effort in finding parties for them. So, now, they don't need to.

Farming of old events (sky, sea, limbus, etc.): Nobody is even doing these anymore thanks to adoulin/iLvl gear making almost all of the gear obsolete, and even if they were, they certainly wouldn't need to party up for them. Even making a party just for the sake of having more people to hold pops for stuff like sky is pointless now, since thanks to the login campaigns that never seem to be going away, and the fact that there are home points all over sky now, all they'd have to do is just warp back to the login campaign moogle and get more pops, and then just warp right back. No farming or grinding even required, solo or not!

Farming of new events (delve, skirmish, etc.): Cirdas/Rala skirmish are 100% obsolete now, since weapons that are superior to even the +1 skirmish weapons are being handed out to anybody that can summon some trust npc's and kill a few mobs, and none of the other drops are even worth mentioning (yay, some free geomancer scrolls? lol) Also, most of yorcia skirmish armor/delve armor are obsolete too (although, this has less to do with casualization and more to do with SE's "obsolete everything after 1 patch" mentality) and the stuff that isn't obsolete now (mostly delve accessories and mega boss weapons) either will be after the next patch, or the content will be nerfed so badly that people no longer even need to pursue them. So, why bother?

Purely social/partying just for the sake of company/no particular agenda: Nobody is even doing this anymore! Though, why would they? Japanese people just pretend like you don't exist, and even if you did by some miracle find somebody that spoke the same language as you, what motivation would they have to even just hang around and just pass time idly? As you have already said, "casual" players don't have very much time to spend on the game, so why "waste" it, when they could be spending the time that they "do" have, going and getting drops for themselves? That would be silly, and therefore, they don't bother.

So, now that we see that the current state of the game is your fault (not "you personally", you as in "casual players in general") we can move on to the rest of the post:

You talk a lot about being able to solo from 76->99, and even from 1->99, and as somebody that has soloed several jobs from 1->99, even before trust/eminence/etc. (you said I never have, first untruth) let me just say that it definitely is possible (especially now) to solo from 1->99 as any job. It just might take more than one day, and that's ok. The problem with "casuals" is that if they don't do... whatever it is they're trying to do (whether that be cap a job, get a certain gear, clear a certain story, cap merits, list goes on pretty much forever) within the span of a few hours, then "it's too much grinding!!" when really the problem is they just don't want to put forth the effort to do it, they want it done for them. There is absolutely no reason why your friend, or me, or you, or the OP, or anybody else for that matter, can't go out and get a few levels a day (speaking "casually" here, anybody could get at least a few levels a day, most could do more) and then come back the next day and do a few more. But, I guess it's easier to complain to SE to "remove the grind" than actually getting out there and doing it, isn't it? In short, your friend is stuck at level 76, because he chooses to be stuck there.

As for me (so you don't make any further untrue assumptions about me) I have all 22 jobs in the game at level 99. Some of them I did the "old-school" way pre-abyssea (RDM, DRG, BLU), some of them I did through the current standard "GoV to 30 and then burn in abyssea" (NIN, WHM, others), some I did completely solo, without the help of trust npcs or eminence (BLM, THF, others) and even still others, I did just straight-up abyssea fell cleave/charged whisker burning/leeching (most of the others). Going out and doing, not complaining, is how you're going to get to where you wanna be.

You also say that hardcore (we'll use the term "veteran" for consistency's sake) players like to feel superior to "casual players" (second untruth) I'm not going to say a whole lot about this but I thought I should touch on it, since it seems to come up a lot. Again I can't speak for all "veterans", but at least for me it's not really a matter of superior versus inferior. If anything, it's a matter of experience versus inexperience. This is also why delve groups tend to only take Oatixur monks as DD for example, it's not that this gear is really "needed" (clearly it isn't, since if it was, then how did the first group that cleared do it?) but it's really a matter of using gear to make up for "casual player's" inexperience (they've never had to actually be a part of a group where they had a role to perform, thanks to casual soloabilty for everything nowadays) So you see, it's not even a matter of "I am superior to this person", its merely one of "This person is inexperienced, so lets use gear to make up for it".

Then you go on to say that I hate the records of eminence system (which, to be fair is only partly-untrue lol). Eminence itself (the system in general) is AWESOME :p Easily one of the best things that's been added to the game for a very long time (now trust, that's another story). Anything that gets people to spread out across the world, and do things/go to areas that they otherwise normally never would, is great. My sole issue with the system however, is the way that it basically invalidates everything that came before it. Need a weapon? Oh don't bother "wasting time" by "grinding" events or by "grinding" crafts or by "grinding" anything else, just take free iLvl117 weapons and armor for every job you have, just for doing easy things like killing EPs!

Which again leads back to not being able to find parties for things like skirmishes, and to a lesser extent, delves. If they wanted to give away free weapons and armor as a means to help "casual" players "catch up", that would be fine. But, they just give you pretty much everything you need, and pretty much immediately too, which inevitably leads to boredom and "why am I even playing this still", which leads to people quitting, and also leads to the people that DIDN'T quit, having nobody to do anything with, and that's the situation we're in today. And it's the "make everything soloable" and "remove the grind" attitudes that are directly responsible for it.

[Mefuki]

Mission parties (nations/other storylines): Nobody is partying up for these anymore, because since anybody (even "casuals") can hit 99 in one day thanks to abyssea, and can be decked out in iLvl117 gear by the time they get there thanks to eminence, why bother doing them on-level (where you would need a team) when you could just wait the 1 day and just blast through it at iLvl117 (solo). The few instances where this wouldn't apply (nation mission 2-3/5-1 and ye olde CoP) already no longer apply due to the fact that the level caps were removed, because "casual" players were unwilling to put forth the effort in finding parties for them. So, now, they don't need to.

It's not that people are unwilling to put effort into playing, it's that they actually want to play. Let me give an example: Can't say what others did but due to time restrains and connections (or lack-there-of), I had to PUG all of my Voidwatch. I, regretfully, made some sacrifices in RL to get those silly quests done. Why? Because it took 2+ hours before we could even get to the fighting (read: playing). Why is logging in and immediately getting to play and working toward goals considered a bad thing? Why should it take so much time to start playing?

I have similar experience with Delve. This time I was able to find an LS that I could possibly be a part of because the event run times were reasonable enough but then the LS events started to run late, well past midnight on a work night. The events would took ages to get started and took just as long to finish. I soon realized that this just wasn't worth the trouble to do. And because at the time Delve was pretty much all there was to do, I quit.

Basically, I'm trying to say that the current focus on low man parties and accessibility of content is a great thing for the game, in my mind.

[stealth_gamer]

Basically, I'm trying to say that the current focus on low man parties and accessibility of content is a great thing for the game, in my mind.

In some ways it is, and in some ways it's not.

XP (though, I disagree with the OP and think that with double exp campaigns, eminence, FoV/GoV, and the already doubled XP rates, honestly, its more than enough as-is lol), and stuff like the level 10-50 gear through records of eminence, it's fine. Nobody is crafting/selling this gear anyways and if it'd help new people, hey I'm all for it :3

My main problem is with the i117 stuff from records of eminence (removing need to do things like farm skirmishes) and giving away stuff like the rem's tales/REMi119 upgrade items through eminence (removing the need to do SKCNMS/other stuff that drops those items). It gets to a point where, if SE is just going to give us everything, why do anything ourselves? And in my opinion we're already way past that point.

[Renaissance2K]

Bayld and Sparks gear is excellent for soloing the new battlefields on Very Easy or completely destroying pre-Adoulin content, especially stuff where Trust NPCs can be summoned. It's not nearly as useful in Delve or the Hard and Very Hard battlefields, which do indeed drop gear that is better in nearly every case.

That's also not even considering the fact that you can't buy any accessories worth a darn using Bayld or Sparks.

Instead of blaming Square-Enix for giving casual players access to casual gear that's really only useful in casual content, why not blame them for making it so easy for a player to cap out on the really good gear from brand new content and not leaving any incentive to repeat it? Everybody loves how you're able to redeem Plasm for Delve gear once you defeat the boss, but it's now virtually impossible to get a clear without paying a mercenary shell because there's no incentive to go back and do it again.

[Rwolf]

Instead of blaming Square-Enix for giving casual players access to casual gear that's really only useful in casual content, why not blame them for making it so easy for a player to cap out on the really good gear from brand new content and not leaving any incentive to repeat it? Everybody loves how you're able to redeem Plasm for Delve gear once you defeat the boss, but it's now virtually impossible to get a clear without paying a mercenary shell because there's no incentive to go back and do it again.

Quoted for truth.

Comparing EXP alleviations to frail content is like comparing apples and oranges. They are completely different things with completely different issues going on. Concerning frail content, I agree there is an issue with the events of Adoulin. In ways, it's Abyssea 2.0 in how it upheaved the game and left a lot of players cancelling their subscriptions in the wake. The ideas are great but they just came in too often, too fast, and too easy. Outdating almost all of what was before it. This is pretty much due to the fact that Seekers of Adoulin was filler for the first 6 months of release.

The whole point of the expansion was just to try and retain subscribers with new shinies during the period of FFXIV: AAR going from beta to live. Square-Enix has stated in interviews they weren't expecting AAR to do well out the gate. It's blatently evident SoA started as a cushion just in case it failed that they retained some subscribers in FFXI. As soon FFXIV: AAR boomed on entry, we started getting meatier updates and more frequently. But by then, like Abyssea, damage had already been done. So Records of Eminence was added as an equalizer and yet with the reward scaling, ended up doing more damage to content.

Concerning EXP changes, the problem isn't alleviating the journey to level 99. The problem is how once you're at level 99, there is so much quick and overlapping content we have. Which is why I was against item level from the start and thought this should have been added as an extended merit system. But this is all in the past, mistakes have been made. Veterans have had so much advantage over newer players in terms of EXP alleviation. Multiple EXP rings, on-going EXP and other bonus campaigns, Abyssea when it was in it's prime, FoV/GoV when it was in it's prime. The damage is done already. All that can be done is to make it easier for new players who didn't have the privilege of having more players to work with and all those campaigns, to get some of it to catch up.

Revisiting and reviving item level content from 100-119 is a separate thread altogether.

[Mjogosx]

Well. I a new player to the game. I dint even know if was possible to level till 50 in one/two days. I get LV50 after 25 days!! And dint know about Abyssea thing. Only now i'm getting more information about the game. And for Party i agree, it difficult to play with anyone low level. I almost played alone till now. So for newbies an '2014 Guide' will be useful.

[Mefuki]

My main problem is with the i117 stuff from records of eminence

The way I see it, it was necessary to add easily obtainable, high ilevel gear to the game to game to close the gap between players. I'm not trying to say that ilevel was a good idea, mind you. Everyone knows that ilevel was/is a bad idea for this game (or at least the way it was introduced) but the situation had to be rectified. My understanding of ilevels is that they basically give your character extra levels roughly equal to the level shown. So we had some people who missed the Delve rush and are essentially missing a dozen or so "levels" on their characters. The highest level entry level gear available before RoE was level 106 via Bayld, I believe. That's a 13 level difference between the entry level player and the player that got through Delve.

It's a gap that had to close because we were getting into a situation where people that wanted to do Delve couldn't because their level wasn't sufficient. Like when we were back at 75 cap and someone level 60 wanted to party or do missions or endgame, do you remember the usual response? Usually it went something like, "Level some more and you can do some of that stuff with us"(At least this was my experience). So that's kind of what's happening here. Going forward, I think a lot of people would agree that it's high time this power creep stop and SE stays at 119 for a while.

Hmm, and thinking about it now, I wonder if ilevel wouldn't have been such a disaster if they did it WAY slower and more carefully. Like if Skirmish I was i100, Delve i101, etc with careful considerations made to the "stat vomit" and extra stuff on the gear. That way we could've had a scenario more like, "Hmm, well this i100 body has more DEX but the i101 body has an extra level." etc, etc. I've been noticing it's going back to that style of game. That's good because for a while there it was just, "Well, the gap between any of this new ilevel gear and my old gear is so large there no point but to just stack the highest ilevel I have."


giving away stuff like the rem's tales/REMi119 upgrade items through eminence (removing the need to do SKCNMS/other stuff that drops those items). It gets to a point where, if SE is just going to give us everything, why do anything ourselves? And in my opinion we're already way past that point.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking 10x as long to farm up the REM's tales and the Gil (read: points) to afford the crafting item needed as someone who has connections and is able to fight the difficult battles, where not only are you rewarded with lots of Tales but the aforementioned crafting items, multiple parcel/boxes of REM upgrade items and a chance at a AA weapon plus a title just for the bragging rights. So, I'm not sure "giving away" is quite the right word.

[Xantavia]

My main problem is with the i117 stuff from records of eminence (removing need to do things like farm skirmishes) and giving away stuff like the rem's tales/REMi119 upgrade items through eminence (removing the need to do SKCNMS/other stuff that drops those items). It gets to a point where, if SE is just going to give us everything, why do anything ourselves? And in my opinion we're already way past that point.
Think of the RoE ilvl117 gear as the perle/aurore/teal sets to get players up to a base minimum. If the best gear you had was Empy+2, do you think it would be possible to get an invite to an event now? I missed the initial rush when SoA was released and it wasn't long until player gear requirements left out those who started late.

I felt like I had wasted my money and it was pointless for me to even spend time in Adoulin. But with the latest update, getting some base-line gear was a wonderful thing. Mentally it made a huge difference between asking myself everyday if I should just quit or learn to be content with always being behind. For the first time I felt free to explore aldouin without worrying that getting aggro with maybe a single link would spell death. I'm not fond of how I look wearing this stuff, but that is a small price to pay for actually looking forward to playing again.

[Camiie]

In some ways it is, and in some ways it's not.

XP (though, I disagree with the OP and think that with double exp campaigns, eminence, FoV/GoV, and the already doubled XP rates, honestly, its more than enough as-is lol), and stuff like the level 10-50 gear through records of eminence, it's fine. Nobody is crafting/selling this gear anyways and if it'd help new people, hey I'm all for it :3

My main problem is with the i117 stuff from records of eminence (removing need to do things like farm skirmishes) and giving away stuff like the rem's tales/REMi119 upgrade items through eminence (removing the need to do SKCNMS/other stuff that drops those items). It gets to a point where, if SE is just going to give us everything, why do anything ourselves? And in my opinion we're already way past that point.


People are going out and doing what's required of them to earn the gear and pages. To say it's being given away is typical elitist hyperbole. If you want to go down that path then you next need to ask sarcastically, "Why don't they just mail everyone completed R/M/Es and 119 AF sets?"

If you actually look at the stats of the 117 gear, you'll find that it's actually inferior in most ways to much of the preceding ilevel gear. It seems to be rather nice defensively, but offensively it's generally lacking. Your guess is as good as mine as to why they made it 117 and yorcia skirmish gear 113. I've already complained about the confusing nature of the ilevel and I won't repeat that here. Still they have to provide some form of progression for those who can't or don't want to participate in large group events. I get that some find the notion offensive that there is a path to power that they can't put a gate in front of to keep the plebeians out, but SE has to appeal to more than just those types.

[Damane]

In some ways it is, and in some ways it's not.

XP (though, I disagree with the OP and think that with double exp campaigns, eminence, FoV/GoV, and the already doubled XP rates, honestly, its more than enough as-is lol), and stuff like the level 10-50 gear through records of eminence, it's fine. Nobody is crafting/selling this gear anyways and if it'd help new people, hey I'm all for it :3

My main problem is with the i117 stuff from records of eminence (removing need to do things like farm skirmishes) and giving away stuff like the rem's tales/REMi119 upgrade items through eminence (removing the need to do SKCNMS/other stuff that drops those items). It gets to a point where, if SE is just going to give us everything, why do anything ourselves? And in my opinion we're already way past that point.

i really dont see the problem in RoE rewards, its not like they are tossing it at you, you are accumulating sparks for them, which takes some time and most people play more then 1 job, so its not like they will be instantly finished with it. all people do a combination of both SCNMs/AAs/and RoE rewards to get their ilvl artifact, besides the fact that all battlefields have unique drops that arent up on RoE to get (AA weapons/Accessioers etc etc). Where is the problem of letting all people go on to upgrade artifact armor to ilvl 119?

[Camiie]

i really dont see the problem in RoE rewards, its not like they are tossing it at you, you are accumulating sparks for them, which takes some time and most people play more then 1 job, so its not like they will be instantly finished with it. all people do a combination of both SCNMs/AAs/and RoE rewards to get their ilvl artifact, besides the fact that all battlefields have unique drops that arent up on RoE to get (AA weapons/Accessioers etc etc). Where is the problem of letting all people go on to upgrade artifact armor to ilvl 119?

Add to that the currently exorbitant gil costs of the upgrade materials, and no one is getting a free pass on their AF upgrades. This is where vets have a huge advantage over casual players. They'll come by either the gil or the materials far easier than a casual will. This is the true roadblock for upgrading AF.

[Fawkes]

Do Abyssea leeching parties exist still? I thought they went away after SE started banning people for shouting about them.

[Demonjustin]

Do Abyssea leeching parties exist still? I thought they went away after SE started banning people for shouting about them.Only FCs were ever ban-able and only if SE thought you were tied to RMTs.

[stealth_gamer]

People are going out and doing what's required of them to earn the gear and pages. To say it's being given away is typical elitist hyperbole. If you want to go down that path then you next need to ask sarcastically, "Why don't they just mail everyone completed R/M/Es and 119 AF sets?"

If you actually look at the stats of the 117 gear, you'll find that it's actually inferior in most ways to much of the preceding ilevel gear. It seems to be rather nice defensively, but offensively it's generally lacking. Your guess is as good as mine as to why they made it 117 and yorcia skirmish gear 113. I've already complained about the confusing nature of the ilevel and I won't repeat that here. Still they have to provide some form of progression for those who can't or don't want to participate in large group events. I get that some find the notion offensive that there is a path to power that they can't put a gate in front of to keep the plebeians out, but SE has to appeal to more than just those types.

Stop with the false assumptions. It's not fair, and the fact that you need to resort to strawmanning only shows how weak your argument is. So, please stop doing it. Thanks. Ok, moving along:

Regarding the rem tales from eminence: I do not see how it is a good thing to (ok, so maybe "give away" was the wrong choice of word lol) require so little effort to earn these things. By doing so, you're basically removing the need to do both the SKCNMS as well as the Ark Angel BCNMS. It's a lot easier to just turn on a couple eminence quests, call out some trust npcs, and go slaughter EP for a couple hours than farming up seals and doing some BCs. And as we all know, ALL FFXI players (both "veteran" and "casual") will always take the easiest path to everything. So if you wanted to form a party for one of these events, doing so would be difficult even though you'd finish "faster" from the BCs. But, people dont want "fast", they just want "easy", and that's a problem.

Regarding "gates" (and the whole bit about the "lording over teh pleebz" strawman BS): Prerequisite content (ie: "gates") are a good thing for a few reasons. Firstly, they provide players with something to do. Example: If you want to get to sky, first you have to clear the zilart missions. And to clear the zilart missions, you've got to clear the nation missions up to rank 6 first. So, by "gating off" sky, the player then has to do 2 sets of missions to get there. But, I guess it's just easier to do nothing, right?

Also, with the city dynamis->northland dynamis "gate", if it wasn't there what reason would people have for clearing the cities? Secondly, having "gates" keeps groups together. Example: You and a group of people want to access dynamis xarcabard, but nobody in the group has any clears. That group would have to stay together for... well, I guess at least 4 days now. It really wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for each of the people in the group to go off and solo their own clear, assuming they wanted to run through dynamis xarcabard as a group (though, there's no need to do dynamis as a group now so I guess it doesn't matter). Point is, being "stuck" at a certain part of the game, provides motivation to seek out people to help get you past the "gate", something that is nonexistant in the game as it is today. But, since it's easier for YOU to just waltz your way through a gate that SE has opened for you, I guess you wouldn't care that much, huh? It's this kind of selfish, short-sighted thinking that is sucking all of the life out of this game.

Which brings me to my next point: This is absolutely ridiculous but I'm going to address it anyways. As I have stated in my first post in this thread, I am the leader of a linkshell on Cerberus, one that I created specifically to help "pleebz" get past "gates". I "want" them to, I just want them to do it on their own merit, not to have SE just step in and do it for them. Doing so provides me with the opportunity to interact with them, as well as to re-experience the content in question myself. Let me give you an example: Just tonight, I (who happen to already be @ 15/15 on neo nyzul isle gear) went out and helped the 3 remaining people in my LS get their first neo nyzul clear. Actually we ran 3 times, and won 2 but that's besides the point. Point is, I (the evil veteran that loves nothing more than to piss all over the hopes and dreams of anybody "beneath" me) not only went to this run, but also used the experience I had from previous runs to lead them, and I got them wins. (they were incredibly excited about it btw lol) Now, if what you were saying about me were true, I would not have gone at all. I would have said something like "i have this gear and you dont, na-na-na-na-na-na" (or something similar :p) So please, at least get your facts straight next time.

So, now that we know a little about me, let's find out a little about you :3 When is the last time that YOU helped anybody? And I'm not talking about answering a question for a confused newbie on your /l channel (if you even have one). I mean actually got off your duff, went out with somebody, and farmed some kind of mob, cleared some kind of battlefield, or anything else where you saw no personal benefit from it? You (and people like you) just love to go on about how nobody ever helps you (or other "casuals") with anything, but I don't see YOU doing anything about it. All I ever hear is "veterans don't do this, don't do that" but how about taking some responsibility for the way things are. But no, you just assume that you're entitled to have everything done for you, screw everybody else they're on their own! I'm not saying that you have to go out and start your own linkshell or anything, but just answer a shout or 2, even just answering questions for a new person shouting would help a little bit. So instead of blaming "veterans" for all of the game's problems, maybe you should take a look in the mirror instead.

In closing, drop the "everybody has to do everything for me" entitled/selfish attitude, and become the kind of person you want others to be.

[Fatty]

I definitely agree with OP. Double XP should be default and 50-75 xp curve should be adjusted. It serves no purpose today. Thank you for posting Edyth.

[Anjou]

I would say change the curve to be a more natural slope, not a sudden steep climb. I mean it'd make sense considering even if it stayed the same, people could get a friend to help FC them since AA fights take merit points to access. As long as that kind of content remains in tact, exp should be coming in.

[Twille]

they've already adjusted the exp from 50-75 at least once before, it really isn't that bad.

[Demonjustin]

Fights at higher levels take longer per mob, at the same time, the XP curve is huge by compare to previous levels.