Make the Relic and Empyrean WSs Questable

[Denabond]

Quite possibly the easiest way to stop all of the problems Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons is to simply make both Relic and Empyrean WSs questable, but leaveing the Aftermath linked to the specific weapon. In all the threads that have ppl complain about fixing these 3 weapons, this idea was never mentioned. Mythic is already questable, so why not the other 2 as well? Honestly, the only real weapons that need a buff is Mythic since most are seen as useless.

[Sparthos]

Psst, there is another way to get Empyrean WS and Relic WS.

[Nattack]

many relic ws are somewhat subpar as well, i think they need a revaluation in general. and what were they thinking with kannagi? blade: metsu is lame. blade: kamu was meh, it took 3 tries to get a katana relic right

[Denabond]

Sure there is other ways to get Relic and Empyrean WSs, but they aren't permanent. Your limited to using Emp or WoE weapons for the Emp WS, and Relic WSs is even worse since your limited to either Relic or a weapon where you have to do 13 WSs to just do it ONCE. Making it so everyone has them wouldn't throw off the game that badly.

[Sparthos]

Access to Coronach/Namas Arrow for anyone severely cheapens the respective relic weapons. Getting Cata or Metatron would also cheapen their respective weapons. Beyond the utility weaponskills, the others would be total crap not worth using ever. There are reasons you never see weaponskills like Metsu or Gierksogul - they suck.

The WoE weapons are only viable because they have the Emp weaponskills attached. Making the weaponskills questable completely destroys a magian trial path all for what? Cause someone can't be assed to do the trials and either complete an Emp slowly or WoE?

The only reason we got Mythic WS was because the weaponskills weren't the highlight, the special properties were.

[Eeek]

Well, strictly speaking, the relic weaponskills are already questable as each relic weapon is the reward for an incredibly expensive quest-line.

[Futan]

While I don't have an issue with the suggestion, I also don't see it happening, at least for Empyrean. Each of the "special" weapons have a theme. Relics have high melee DPS, Mythic offer job enhancements, and Empyreans have strong WS. The WS is what makes Empyrean weapons Empyrean. It'd be like giving the job enhancements on Mythics to everyone.

[Nacht]

Sure there is other ways to get Relic and Empyrean WSs, but they aren't permanent. Your limited to using Emp or WoE weapons for the Emp WS, and Relic WSs is even worse since your limited to either Relic or a weapon where you have to do 13 WSs to just do it ONCE. Making it so everyone has them wouldn't throw off the game that badly.

Allowing empy WS to be permanent completely destroys the WoE version of the weapons. There's already an alternative to making an empyrean weapon, and the only moderately difficult part is collecting coins from WoE. And I believe SE said they were going to give that an overhaul.

[Denabond]

I don't see how giving Empy WS to everyone would destroy the WoE version. They are technically 4th on the dmg list behind Mythic. Or they can simply make it so you need to get WoE version to quest for the Empy WS.

[Andylynn]

pass tothis idea, giving every bandwagon war mnk and nin their respective ws in an already easymode ffxi would make for even worse players

[Airenn]

pass tothis idea, giving every bandwagon war mnk and nin their respective ws in an already easymode ffxi would make for even worse players

basically what tearv said, yea

[Auredant]

pass tothis idea, giving every bandwagon war mnk and nin their respective ws in an already easymode ffxi would make for even worse players

the aftermath is kinda what make the empyrean...this solves nothing...not that i'm an advocate of change.

[Valefor4life]

You can easily get the NQ empyrean from WoE. It takes very little effort.

[Denabond]

Meh fine it was just an idea I idea I had. Didn't expect everyone to be so hostile to the idea >_>.

[Nacht]

I don't see how giving Empy WS to everyone would destroy the WoE version. They are technically 4th on the dmg list behind Mythic. Or they can simply make it so you need to get WoE version to quest for the Empy WS.

There's a lot of weapons that have better overall stats compared to WoE weapons. Compare Widowmaker to Maschu+2. If widowmaker could use Ukko's Fury, then Maschu+2 is obsolete.

Or in the case of the magical WS. If you could use Wildfire with a OA2-4 weapon, then that probably becomes the best gun in the game, since the damage of the weapon is irrelevant to the damage of the WS.

[Andylynn]

Meh fine it was just an idea I idea I had. Didn't expect everyone to be so hostile to the idea >_>.

well, we aren't being hostile. it's that just because someone has an idea, does not necessarily make it a good one.

[Miera]

I thought doing WoE for Emp weaponskill was easy enough.

[Airenn]

well, we aren't being hostile. it's that just because someone has an idea, does not necessarily make it a good one.

I am surprised that TearV is saying something that is actually TRUE

[Nvr]

Why not have WoE Weapon or Empy weapon be the item you need to obtain and do the quest with to unlock Empy WS? Much like the Nyzul weapons needing to be obtained and then used to break latent.

[Andylynn]

Why not have WoE Weapon or Empy weapon be the item you need to obtain and do the quest with to unlock Empy WS? Much like the Nyzul weapons needing to be obtained and then used to break latent.

some of the empy ws are far too powerful to be in the hands of the dumb. smite, hi, ukkos, fudo come to mind.

[Nacht]

Why not have WoE Weapon or Empy weapon be the item you need to obtain and do the quest with to unlock Empy WS? Much like the Nyzul weapons needing to be obtained and then used to break latent.
No.


some of the empy ws are far too powerful to be in the hands of the dumb. smite, hi, ukkos, fudo come to mind.
I'm going to agree with TearV here.

[Denabond]

some of the empy ws are far too powerful to be in the hands of the dumb. smite, hi, ukkos, fudo come to mind.
Considering most bandwagon mnks, nins, and wars usually have WoE or empy weapons, I actually consider this a moot point.

[svengalis]

I don't understand this topic. The Empyrean and Relic weaponskills are questable.

[chrism]

The one thing I hate is how much money is required just to get the Relic weapon... Ugh man F getting it I'll just go with Empy like everyone else I suppose.. and people wonder why empy is better .. because its questable and not super lame expensive to make.

[Afrohatch]

I can't wait to see a full perle DRK with scythe of trials spamming catastrophe to get capped haste to justify the full perle

[Futan]

I can't wait to see a full perle DRK with scythe of trials spamming catastrophe to get capped haste to justify the full perle

The Aftermath is only for Stage4/5, so that wouldn't be a problem. Well the gimp DRK using a gimp WS will be but they won't be getting haste from it. :x

[Afrohatch]

Touche. It's still a terrible idea though

[Auredant]

I don't understand this topic. The Empyrean and Relic weaponskills are questable.

has to be a joke

[Airenn]

some of the empy ws are far too powerful to be in the hands of the dumb. smite, hi, ukkos, fudo come to mind.

Which is why you stick to Drakesbane, right TearValerin?

[Greatguardian]

Which is why you stick to Drakesbane, right TearValerin?

Naw, Camlann's Torment is probably better since Drakesbane has such a low fTP and WSC that it can't compare to Empyrean WS. Ukko's and Victory Smite are just cheating compared to a 4-hit 50% STR Critical WS.

[Rambus]

yeah what others said, bad idea.

[svengalis]

has to be a joke

What does a quest consist of?

Whenever you are doing Magian trials or upgrading a Relic weapon you are basically doing a quest. It's just that in these cases it is multiple quests.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I think its a good idea..

if implemented correctly

As long as the quests aren't as easy as the lvl 30 job emotes ;p

[Andylynn]

I think its a good idea..

if implemented correctly

As long as the quests aren't as easy as the lvl 30 job emotes ;p

if he wants a taste of relic ws, but cant be arsed to get arelic, get the utility abyssea one. its not like the skills are that great, but eh, most of them are decent dmg weapons.

[Airenn]

if he wants a taste of relic ws, but cant be arsed to get arelic, get the utility abyssea one. its not like the skills are that great, but eh, most of them are decent dmg weapons.

TearValerin, you are the smartest person on these forums.

[Flunklesnarkin]

idk.. relic ws's are pretty fail as is.. why not make them questable.. can be like the fail questable mythic ws's

maybe something of similar difficulty or maybe a little more tough than mythics.

and im surprised everybody jumped in to "protect" the special relics ws's lol..

like didn't even notice they suggested empyreans too.. then relic holders wouldn't have to cry themselves to sleep at night :\

[Valefor4life]

If you want relic WS why don't you get those 13 hit charge up relic ones.

[Andylynn]

If you want relic WS why don't you get those 13 hit charge up relic ones.


if he wants a taste of relic ws, but cant be arsed to get arelic, get the utility abyssea one. its not like the skills are that great, but eh, most of them are decent dmg weapons.

two posts up man :\

[Flunklesnarkin]

I don't want the ws lol.. I'm saying might as well make them all questable like the OP suggests..

Then people don't have to cry about empyrean ws's being overpowered.

[Nacht]

I don't want the ws lol.. I'm saying might as well make them all questable like the OP suggests..

Then people don't have to cry about empyrean ws's being overpowered.

whatever, if people don't want to put the work in, they can go suck it.

[Malamasala]

I agree. Myrkr needs to be questable. It is a WS designed for TP speed weapons, sitting on a max DMG weapon.

I of course also support nerfing all empyrean wses so they are all as terrible as myrkr. (Lets say WAR WS gives 400 static HP cured and that is all. That way we can all run around with crappy empyreans.)

[Auredant]

What does a quest consist of?

Whenever you are doing Magian trials or upgrading a Relic weapon you are basically doing a quest. It's just that in these cases it is multiple quests.


i think ur misunderstanding the OPs intent. He wants to make the WS questable without actually getting the weapon.

[Alderin]

No.

The WS's are part of a reward for putting in some time and effort. Making them questable would deem the weapons less valuable.

[Vortex]

i think ur misunderstanding the OPs intent. He wants to make the WS questable without actually getting the weapon.

Relic Ws can already be easily used on the "Fake" relic weapons, it's only once every 13 WSs but most of them suck anyway, and you don't need anymore then that, the Emp WSs are already easy to get from the WOE weapons upgrade, if they made them questable, there would be absolutly no reason to even do WOE ones at all, seriously, How easy do you want it here.

NO, These WS don't need to be questable, NO, i don't want to watch full retarded peopel walking around in full MNK relic saying "look at my VS!"

and they most certainly don't need to be nerfed, if you can't work for your stuff, then don't play this game, sheesh.

All this does is spit in the face of people who actually put the time to work for thier weapons. for "i want my stuff in the laziest way possible, waaaa"

[hiko]

quest: do WS you want to unlock 500+ times on specifed monster
empyrean/relic weapon equiped during the quest: WS get the aftermatch

[Airenn]

two posts up man :\

TearV, you sure do count very well!

[Rambus]

if he wants a taste of relic ws, but cant be arsed to get arelic, get the utility abyssea one. its not like the skills are that great, but eh, most of them are decent dmg weapons.

thats what i am doing, someday SOMEDAY i will have the power to use all ws! gogog WoE weapons

[Anethia]

Allow me to ask you this: if most of the relic ws suck so bad then what is the problem with allowing everyone to obtain it? You did your work, you got your weapon and everything that comes with it; dmg, ws, and the resulting aftermath.

I have the mythic ws for blu, drg and pld. But I never completed the weapons, so I dont get their dmg bonus or aftermath effects that result from using the ws. Its the same thing for relics, the point was never the relic ws dmg the point was always the bonus effect resulting from using the ws.

You still get your bonus effects, it's not like letting us get the ws is gonna destroy your bragging rights. You still get to say "I get stuff you don't get".

[Malamasala]

I think Anethia just finished this discussion. People can keep arguing though, but it won't make them right.

[Denabond]

Heh I'm rather surprised this thread is still being bumped considering the majority think this is a stupid idea. Most of them think that having these WS be questable means all the noobs would get it, even though they could just make the quest to get them insanely hard. Like say get the WoE weapon then go out and get 1.5k WS points. For Relic could make it so you need to do 1.5k WS points from the Fake Relic Weapons in Abyssea, or use the stage 1 relic weapon. But whatever, arguing that these should be questable when most ppl think its stupid is pointless since they have to be "unique to the ppl who put in the time twords the weapon".

[Andylynn]

NO, These WS don't need to be questable, NO, i don't want to watch full retarded peopel walking around in full MNK relic saying "look at my VS!"
this por favor.

[Malamasala]

But whatever, arguing that these should be questable when most ppl think its stupid is pointless since they have to be "unique to the ppl who put in the time twords the weapon".

The only people against it are those who have the weapons, and if most have them, what is the difference between all and most having access? Is there some rule that everyone in FFXI should have empyreans?

[Seriha]

Never been a fan of hiding WS behind overly long hoops. Nyzul was pushing that limit between disc requirements and the initial randomness of weapons, but they at least alleviated the last hurdle by the 100 boss dropping the job of the disc user. Still, needing thousands of WS if you're not on 100, particularly in this day and age when Nyzul isn't popular, still makes it something agitating to do for those who missed the initial popularity.

In general, I'm for the idea. WoE weapons can lead up to an eventual quest or trial. The "fake relics" can have the same. I'd also be interested in level 99 weapons of other paths having access to the various Empyrean WS, but that can be nixed if a permanent option is possible. The main versions will still have their benefit of the Aftermath effect, and if some other weapon risks being better without it, future versions can have further improved stats to compensate.

[TybudX]

The only people against it are those who have the weapons,

Empyreal WSs are easy to get because the two ways of getting them (WoE, actual Empyreal weapons) are on par with being the burger flipper and being the french fry guy at a McDonalds, respectively.


and if most have them, what is the difference between all and most having access?

Uh, wut?


stuff

1. Nyzul Isle is easily done with 3 people now. I would go as far as to say that a competent group (as in one with somebody who can solve lamp floors) can probably do 10 floors every run, so getting from floor 1 to floor 100 should take all of 5 hours.

2. The point of Empyrean weapons is most definitely the WS. WoEs weapons are junk compared to other options, but slapping an Empyrean WS on them makes them #2.

Here's what I want to know. For all those people who think the Empyreal WSs should be separated from the weapons, how do you propose they be made available? A simple quest seems to be way too much work. I mean, WoEs takes a few hours. A few hours. It is quite possibly the most brain dead content SE has ever thrown at us, but as it stands it's too much work for access to the second best weapons for pretty much every job in the game. I guess they should just require a skill level to get, then? And while we're at it, lets make everybody happy. Lets remove the job specific part inherent to the weapons themselves. Lets make the WSs available as long as the job you are on can get the necessary skill level. Oh wait, I just had a thought! How about instead of still having to work for the weapons, lets just have you ding into them! Once you get a job to the level required, the weapon just appears in your inventory. I mean, most people have them already, right? May as well start giving that **** away. Holy crap, I just had another idea... lets not stop there! We can all ding into gear, too! I mean, why quest that ****, right? That takes too long. I just want to join bad exp alliances and ding into gear and /shout in port Jeuno that I still need Divine Might, even though SE gave me all the earrings and you can duo it in about 2 minutes now. Yeah! That would be ****ing awesome!

[Seriha]

I guess I missed the memo where WoE weapons mysteriously drop into a person's lap without camping NMs, hunting down VNMs, doing WoE itself, collecting seals, etc..

WoE itself taking only a few hours is a gross generalization, too. Is it crowded? Are people lotting against you? Did you get your tenth Decay pouch when going for Glory? There's a reason a lot of people hate WoE, and it's not because it's "easy" to do.

And that would only be but a step in the process. Nobody's suggesting the moment you get the WoE sword the WS is yours forever. Just a step in the process. The weapon itself will never become useless with that final end in mind, as it would have served a purpose.

[Afrohatch]

This game would have died off a long long time ago if everything was so easy to get. It's nice knowing that there's somewhat of a "challenge" still, and you're kidding yourself if you think that camping NMs/VNMs/WoE is too hard to get an empyrean WS. Time consuming, yes, but time consumption is how a MMORPG thrives.

[Denabond]

Stuff
First of all, i never insisted that it be a piss easy quest where you just go, talk to the NPC, then bam you get the emp WS. I expect either a long and involved quest where you either 1 do an absurd amount of SCs (I'm talking in the 1-2k WS points range, not 250) or 2 kill a very hard NM where you need a skilled pt to kill it (preferably not in abyssea so ppl cant just brew it), or a combination of both. Make it so you NEED to get the WoE or Emp weapon to even start the quest. But apparently that's equal to just handing it out to every noob on the server.

As for the point of Emp weapons being the WS, idk about you, but isn't there that huge stat buff on it? Like idk, +15 Str on Verethragna, or the +15 Dex on Twashtar? Also what about the ODD aftermath? Well apparently, those aren't unique to the Emp weapons, so yeah they are TOTALLY WORTHLESS if ppl could quest for the WS. As for the WoE weapons being useless, ignoring the fact that its mentioned that they would be used to even start the quest, they still have the 3rd or 4th highest base DMG compared to all the other weapons (a few of them have the same base dmg as Mythic weapons). And even if the WoE weapons were made obsolete, so what? Since apparently they only take a few hours to complete (they aren't, but I'm just gonna go with what you said), everyone already has them. So making it so they are questable wouldn't really change the total amount of ppl who have the WS anyways.

This game would have died off a long long time ago if everything was so easy to get. It's nice knowing that there's somewhat of a "challenge" still, and you're kidding yourself if you think that camping NMs/VNMs/WoE is too hard to get an empyrean WS. Time consuming, yes, but time consumption is how a MMORPG thrives.
So if the quest for the WS took 3-4 months to complete, would you be fine with it?

[Andylynn]

As for the point of Emp weapons being the WS, idk about you, but isn't there that huge stat buff on it? Like idk, +15 Str on Verethragna, or the +15 Dex on Twashtar? Also what about the ODD aftermath?

the problem is, even though it may be a difficult quest, even without the AM to factor into their DPS, the skills are far too powerful to be in the hands of someone who just went an easy route, and took the equivalent of doing a ws trial. to me it feels like another cheap way to gimp people out of actually having to work for weapons, (weapon that are already laughably easy, why youd need to quest the ws is beyond me.)

[Seriha]

Not everyone has dual-boxes or people they can reliably weasel into spending hours upon hours for an individual person's benefit. Sure, compared to Relic weapons, Empyreans are a lot easier to get, but it's still a far cry from the implication they just fall into everyone's lap who even thinks about getting one. This doesn't even touch issues like bottlenecks at Gukumatz, Amun, and so on.

I'm somewhat puzzled by the logic demanding people that suck should basically be denied an avenue that could help them not suck as much. And from the timesink angle, finishing a modestly difficult quest would likely leave the person wanting to make another weapon to better take advantage their new found WS. For example, people who unlock CDC might want to make a DEX Shamshir to get (at present) a DEX+9 weapon to help with the WS mods. Or they could go for DA+10% sword. Whatever. It is, by no means, an insinuation that the Empyrean weapons themselves should fall behind so all the cool kids can still keep their snowflake status.

[Denabond]

the problem is, even though it may be a difficult quest, even without the AM to factor into their DPS, the skills are far too powerful to be in the hands of someone who just went an easy route, and took the equivalent of doing a ws trial. to me it feels like another cheap way to gimp people out of actually having to work for weapons, (weapon that are already laughably easy, why youd need to quest the ws is beyond me.)
If the quest required you to get the WoE or Emp weapon to begin with, there really isnt a easy mode to begin with, since they will have to put in the time and effort to get those weapons. While the WoE weapons aren't as hard to get as Emp weapons, they are still superior to everything else cause they will still have the stat bonuses and AM. And as for why I want to quest instead of just using the weapon, its to even out the difference in power between the relic and emp weapons, and so if they release a weapon later on that's is like relic/mythic/emp (in which they will probably do) I can still use the WS i worked so hard for on another weapon.

[Andylynn]

If the quest required you to get the WoE or Emp weapon to begin with, there really isnt a easy mode to begin with, since they will have to put in the time and effort to get those weapons. While the WoE weapons aren't as hard to get as Emp weapons, they are still superior to everything else cause they will still have the stat bonuses and AM. And as for why I want to quest instead of just using the weapon, its to even out the difference in power between the relic and emp weapons, and so if they release a weapon later on that's is like relic/mythic/emp (in which they will probably do) I can still use the WS i worked so hard for on another weapon.
if you went this route, you would totally rid of the use of woe weapons to begin with. they have a niche right now because they provide exactly what you are asking for. if you could use ukkos with a widowmaker, we would have a problem, since widowmaker >>>>> maschu+2.

[Flunklesnarkin]

if you went this route, you would totally rid of the use of woe weapons to begin with. they have a niche right now because they provide exactly what you are asking for. if you could use ukkos with a widowmaker, we would have a problem, since widowmaker >>>>> maschu+2.

I don't think SE has a problem outdating weapons.. or putting useless weapons into the game for that matter..

like take say Horrent Mace... why in the world is that even in the game >_>

[Andylynn]

I don't think SE has a problem outdating weapons.. or putting useless weapons into the game for that matter..

like take say Horrent Mace... why in the world is that even in the game >_>

if they did, they wouldn't have made the announcement theyre beefing relics and mythics. they apparently care about the end game content enough to not funk it up without repairing it.

[Denabond]

if you went this route, you would totally rid of the use of woe weapons to begin with. they have a niche right now because they provide exactly what you are asking for. if you could use ukkos with a widowmaker, we would have a problem, since widowmaker >>>>> maschu+2.
But in order to use Ukkos with a Widowmaker, they would still have to get a Maschu to begin with (or a emp Great Axe). The time invested into Maschu isn't wasted. After getting the Maschu+2, have then do some crazy hard quest so they can learn it permanently. But if you feel that strongly about it, SE can just simply make it so that you NEED to get the emp weapon to learn it then. That way, Maschu+2 would still be used by the ppl who don't want to invest in the time and effort into getting both the emp and the quest.

[Greatguardian]

But in order to use Ukkos with a Widowmaker, they would still have to get a Maschu to begin with (or a emp Great Axe). The time invested into Maschu isn't wasted. After getting the Maschu+2, have then do some crazy hard quest so they can learn it permanently. But if you feel that strongly about it, SE can just simply make it so that you NEED to get the emp weapon to learn it then. That way, Maschu+2 would still be used by the ppl who don't want to invest in the time and effort into getting both the emp and the quest.

Why would I want to use Victory Smite with anything but my Verethragna? As has already been mentioned a few dozen times, the quest for the Empyrean WS already exists. It's the WoE path. All in all the damn thing's easier to build than a STR weapon, so as far as I can tell the only people who ought to be complaining are the ones who built the wrong path and don't want to go redo a superior weapon.


Not everyone has dual-boxes or people they can reliably weasel into spending hours upon hours for an individual person's benefit. [.....]

It is, by no means, an insinuation that the Empyrean weapons themselves should fall behind so all the cool kids can still keep their snowflake status.

I will never understand the rampant hostility towards players who get things done. I have an Empyrean Weapon, heck my trio is finishing its third weapon (after helping another friend get his Masamune), and then I'll be on my second Empyrean weapon. That's not because I dualboxed or weaseled people into helping me with shit. I just have friends. You know, friends. Those things that people seem to think are exclusive to casual players. I have friends who I've known for over half a decade, who I've been in multiple shells with, some of which I've gone out to lunch with, who are actually fairly good at FFXI.

That's pretty much all it takes to get multiple Empyreans. I don't need to pay them, or barter things with them, or con them into coming out. We took turns getting weapons because we're friends, not because we need to be under contract in order to work for someone else's gain. This is how it works for most people I know with Empyreans. I'm really tired of this dead-wrong perception of Endgame players. We are people too, we play video games too, we have friends too, and we don't need to bot, cheat, hack, lie, or steal to be good at FFXI.

[Denabond]

Why would I want to use Victory Smite with anything but my Verethragna? As has already been mentioned a few dozen times, the quest for the Empyrean WS already exists. It's the WoE path. All in all the damn thing's easier to build than a STR weapon, so as far as I can tell the only people who ought to be complaining are the ones who built the wrong path and don't want to go redo a superior weapon.
Lets say you spent the time to get both the Relic and Emp weapons (in this case both Spharai and Verethragna). You technically have both WSs, but your limited to using that weapon to use that WS. Id like to be able to use both Final Heaven and Victory Smite on either of those weapons, not limited to being forced to use a certain one. Of course this isn't exactly a good comparison since nobody cares for Final Heaven. But what if in the future they release a 4th set of weapons? I'd like to be able to use Emp WSs with those weapons if at all possible, even if I lose out on the aftermath effect. Emp weapons will be outclassed eventually. Id just like to be able to carry over some of its usefulness to the next set of weapons instead of just tossing it.

[Greatguardian]

Lets say you spent the time to get both the Relic and Emp weapons (in this case both Spharai and Verethragna). You technically have both WSs, but your limited to using that weapon to use that WS. Id like to be able to use both Final Heaven and Victory Smite on either of those weapons, not limited to being forced to use a certain one. Of course this isn't exactly a good comparison since nobody cares for Final Heaven. But what if in the future they release a 4th set of weapons? I'd like to be able to use Emp WSs with those weapons if at all possible, even if I lose out on the aftermath effect. Emp weapons will be outclassed eventually. Id just like to be able to carry over some of its usefulness to the next set of weapons instead of just tossing it.

I can't think of a single Relic WS worth using with an Empyrean on-hand. Even then, so what if you have both weapons? Unique weapons have unique skills attached. When you use that weapon, you get that weapon's skill. I don't need Victory Smite on Spharai or Final Heaven on Verethragna.

If they release a new set of weapons, they'll either have a new weapon skill on them which trumps Smite, or they won't. I highly doubt Verethragna (99) will lose so badly to FalconPunch (99) that it would be worth ditching Aftermath bonuses and using FalconPunch (99) with Victory Smite. Either way, it's a huge "What if" anyways. As the game stands right now, there is no need to make Empyrean WS native to their applicable jobs. There is already a quest to obtain the WS in the game, and it's not hard.

[Andylynn]

Lets say you spent the time to get both the Relic and Emp weapons (in this case both Spharai and Verethragna). You technically have both WSs, but your limited to using that weapon to use that WS. Id like to be able to use both Final Heaven and Victory Smite on either of those weapons, not limited to being forced to use a certain one. Of course this isn't exactly a good comparison since nobody cares for Final Heaven. But what if in the future they release a 4th set of weapons? I'd like to be able to use Emp WSs with those weapons if at all possible, even if I lose out on the aftermath effect. Emp weapons will be outclassed eventually. Id just like to be able to carry over some of its usefulness to the next set of weapons instead of just tossing it.

what i'd like to know is, why would you want the ws to be unlocked for any weapon after getting the original empy/woe/relic weapon. empyrean/relic weapons base damage and aftermath transcend most other weapons to begin with.

[DrStrangelove]

Quite possibly the easiest way to stop all of the problems Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons is to simply make both Relic and Empyrean WSs questable, but leaveing the Aftermath linked to the specific weapon. In all the threads that have ppl complain about fixing these 3 weapons, this idea was never mentioned. Mythic is already questable, so why not the other 2 as well? Honestly, the only real weapons that need a buff is Mythic since most are seen as useless.

The easiest method is often the worst.

The problem with this idea is that many easily obtained 'vanilla' version of the respective weapons example bow, gun, great axe, are comparable to relics in damage and often have other plusses like higher tp gain. Letting them get relic WS simply makes the value of the relics drop even further. Yoichi and Anni have no purpose and the effort to get them is worthless. Amano, Apoc similarly.

Your answer is "give everything" to everyone to solve the problem. The problem is NOT that everyone dioes not have these. It's that the relics and mythics too tremendous effort that has been devalued by empyreans.

What needs to happen is to do something like this:

1) drastically upgrade relic/mythics damage and /or bonuses OR
2) give empyrean WS to relics/mythics owners OR
3) improve relic/mythics exclusive WS to make them on PAR with empyreans (in some cases the WS will need drastic improvement like Final Heaven or Metsu, to mention only 2)

Depending on how these are done any one of these three might be a strong step forward.

Giving everything to everyone is simply a way of saying: all the work you did is next to worthless now.

[Kazen]

I will never understand the rampant hostility towards players who get things done. I have an Empyrean Weapon, heck my trio is finishing its third weapon (after helping another friend get his Masamune), and then I'll be on my second Empyrean weapon. That's not because I dualboxed or weaseled people into helping me with shit. I just have friends. You know, friends. Those things that people seem to think are exclusive to casual players. I have friends who I've known for over half a decade, who I've been in multiple shells with, some of which I've gone out to lunch with, who are actually fairly good at FFXI.

That's pretty much all it takes to get multiple Empyreans. I don't need to pay them, or barter things with them, or con them into coming out. We took turns getting weapons because we're friends, not because we need to be under contract in order to work for someone else's gain. This is how it works for most people I know with Empyreans. I'm really tired of this dead-wrong perception of Endgame players. We are people too, we play video games too, we have friends too, and we don't need to bot, cheat, hack, lie, or steal to be good at FFXI.

This is completely correct.

[Denabond]

@Greatguardian
While you might not care to have the relic and emp WSs available on either weapon, I'd like the ability to use Relic WS with my emp, or vice versa. Yes there are useless Relic WSs, but that doesn't mean ppl shouldn't have access to them.

@Andylynn
Simply because I'd like to be able to use the WS w/o being forced to use a certain weapon?

@DrStrangelove
Relics will still have their Hidden damage multiplier, aftermath, Stat boost, and high dmg to make them stand out. And as long as the quest if sufficiently hard enough so that only a few ppl would even bother getting it, it wont hurt the relic weapons that badly. In retrospect, simply giving Relic/Mythic weapons the empyrean WS is rather unfair to the ppl who worked for Empyreans. One side cant take from the other w/o some kind of concession. While simply boosting the stats to Relic/Mythic or their respective WSs would also even things out, they could simply do that while making them available to everyone. Having a non Relic bow user doing 500-1k damage Namas arrows while the relic users can do 1.5-3k Namas arrows for example.

[DrStrangelove]

@DrStrangelove
Relics will still have their Hidden damage multiplier, aftermath, Stat boost, and high dmg to make them stand out. And as long as the quest if sufficiently hard enough so that only a few ppl would even bother getting it, it wont hurt the relic weapons that badly. In retrospect, simply giving Relic/Mythic weapons the empyrean WS is rather unfair to the ppl who worked for Empyreans. One side cant take from the other w/o some kind of concession. While simply boosting the stats to Relic/Mythic or their respective WSs would also even things out, they could simply do that while making them available to everyone. Having a non Relic bow user doing 500-1k damage Namas arrows while the relic users can do 1.5-3k Namas arrows for example.

I sorta miss your point. SE has already said they are going to increase the strength of relics and mythics relative to empyreans. There is no quid pro quo going on...no concessions that have to be made from both. I was mentioning ways to do that.

Giving unique and useful relic/mythic WS to everyone while not doing that with empyrean WS is just the OPPOSITE of what SE said they were going to do since it gives empyreans and others something while doing nothing for relics / mythics.

[Seriha]

I will never understand the rampant hostility towards players who get things done. I have an Empyrean Weapon, heck my trio is finishing its third weapon (after helping another friend get his Masamune), and then I'll be on my second Empyrean weapon. That's not because I dualboxed or weaseled people into helping me with shit. I just have friends. You know, friends. Those things that people seem to think are exclusive to casual players. I have friends who I've known for over half a decade, who I've been in multiple shells with, some of which I've gone out to lunch with, who are actually fairly good at FFXI.

That's pretty much all it takes to get multiple Empyreans. I don't need to pay them, or barter things with them, or con them into coming out. We took turns getting weapons because we're friends, not because we need to be under contract in order to work for someone else's gain. This is how it works for most people I know with Empyreans. I'm really tired of this dead-wrong perception of Endgame players. We are people too, we play video games too, we have friends too, and we don't need to bot, cheat, hack, lie, or steal to be good at FFXI.

Funny, I'm tired of the dead-wrong perception of those who haven't jumped through a particular set of hoops are bad players, lazy, have no friends, or generally undeserving of any kind of meaningful and timely character progression.

What, exactly, do you lose by people having the potential to basically take a step between Empyreans and the WoE weapons?

I don't see gil mysteriously vanishing from your account, items being dropped, or your own Empyreans set to crappy stats.

Personally, I value the time of my friends. Them helping me get an Empyrean doesn't help them when I'm not around. On the other hand, they can't always be around to help me. This situation goes in reverse. We all know some Empyreans are easier to get than others. We also know you're looking at 30+ kills each for the first 2 phases. Just generally averaging, you'd get an hour per KI collection and fight. Yes, I know Carabosse is much quicker, Glavoid or Chloris not so much. My play times vary due to my family. That of my friends largely varies due to shift work or the actual intensity of their job having spurts. Just looking at 60 hours of time where maybe 2 or 3 hour blocks are knocked off maybe 3 times a week if lucky, all of them devoting themselves just to me would require 20-30 weeks for one weapon. Hardly fast and hardly unreasonable for other players to experience similar as I place myself between casual and hardcore with my own play style.

Obviously, despite WoE's shortcomings, I know it would be more reasonable to chase. As much as I want the event fixed from its grief-tastic state, that's not my motivation in posting for this idea. I am loathe of content developed where those with far more time on their hands or (RL) resources to burn can step away with far greater advantages more readily and too often wave it in the faces of those who can't. I'm sure you'll just pipe up with that's how MMOs are, life isn't fair, or whatever other anti-apologetic BS, but if you haven't come up with an answer to my earlier question, I'll give it: Nothing.


Edit: And while my commentary has been focusing on Empyrean weapons, I'm also for access to the Relic WS. Yeah yeah, we know a lot of them suck or are useless without the aftermath, but this basically sits on the assumption that SE will never touch the WS beyond what they did for the actual relic holders.

Edit2: I'm also of the mindset that Abyssea will not be where the 99 game is at. Leveling? Sure. New HNMs and such? Not so much. Take away the atma and you take away a lot of oomph these WS get.

[DrStrangelove]

What, exactly, do you lose by people having the potential to basically take a step between Empyreans and the WoE weapons?




1) you lose the incentive to try: why work for something that will be given to everyone anyway
2) you lose value in the accomplishment: no one knows how much work everyone did so there is no recognition of accomplishment or effort
3) you lose value of uniqueness: everyone has one so it's no longer special
4) you lose the value of utility: since everyone can now do the same thing, the worth of your weapon or weapon skill is no longer at a premium

One can ask the question the same way in all walks of like using the same argument you used:

A) a college teacher gives everyone an A (no matter how hard each person worked)
B) a boss gives everyone the same raise or bonus
C) your employer gives everyone the same pension (no matter how many years each person worked)
D) the tournament director gives everyone a first place medal no matter how everyone performed

I'm sure students, workers and athletes all have lives. Some have more time to devote to studies or work or training. What does it matter if everyone gets the same grade, same raise, same pension or same trophy?

For every reason we DON'T do that, is the same reason we shouldn't do it here. We aren't handing out cupcakes to 5 year-olds whose feelings should be respected.

Unless you think students, bosses, companies and sports events should work that way, then you have your answer.

[Seriha]

I see, so Professional Gamerz onry. Got it.

Nah, let's run with a variant of your school reference through a grading scale.
A+: Empyreans and the ODD Aftermath.
B: Quested WS with a good weapon used over the WoE version.
C: WoE weapon with the WS not yet learned for B.
D and below: Those noobs we all hate, right?

The only time B ever chances bettering A+ and eliminating any and all incentive is if the subsequent trials for the Empyreans result in almost no actual sense of an upgrade. By default, we can expect more tacked onto the Damage rating and the currently listed stat boosts. There's nothing stopping SE from tweaking, say, Almace's delay down to 210 from 224 or giving CDC from it a partial MP return based on the damage done.

Just use your imagination. It's not a hopeless proposal. Perhaps to the joy of some, however, I don't actually see this idea coming to pass. I merely find the arguments against it too shallow and not warranting an immediate trip to the recycle bin. Should it happen, though, and done right? Everyone wins.

[Rambus]

I see, so Professional Gamerz onry. Got it.

Nah, let's run with your school analogy, though.
A+: Empyreans.
B: Quested WS with a good weapon used over the WoE version.
C: WoE weapon.
D and below: Those noobs we all hate, right?

The only time B ever chances bettering A+ and eliminating any and all incentive is if the subsequent trials for the Empyreans result in almost no actual sense of an upgrade. By default, we can expect more tacked onto the Damage rating and the currently listed stat boosts. There's nothing stopping SE from tweaking, say, Almace's delay down to 210 from 224 or giving CDC from it a partial MP return based on the damage done.

Just use your imagination. It's not a hopeless proposal.

No, not professional, gamerz? onry? ( i am not sure the purpose of stating this in such a way)

You do have to see his viewpoint though , there needs to be content for people with more time on thier hands while giving the tools for casual players to do well enough to do their part.

you do not need emp weapons to perform, you do not need relic or mythic weapons to perform, in fact players with common weapons have been out damaging, outdotting?, the best of the relics ( like a thf out damaging a relic gun in moon because they had tripple attack merits and such) for years. ( hint: different, proper gear macros is why that happens)

I also need to ask this, what do you hope to achieve in auguring like you are?

some ws like relic ws are exclusive to the weapon to show the accomplishment, the only people that need an extra ws are mythic weapons. I was using that abyssea drop weapon on my war when I was asked “is that a relic weapon?” after I did the ws. That made me think, relic ws and emp ws are better off exclusive.

There is a difference of someone playing the best they can with the gear they have ( like using your 1 or 2 magain trials on your blm or even all 8 HQ staffs) vs sitting there spamming spells in a dark staff.

[Karbuncle]

First I'd like to say, The chances of empyrean wS being quests are probably 0%. you have 2 Weapon choices to get them already, One of them Clearly designed to be the "Easier" choice to just have the WS.

Secondly, In terms of Relic weapons... I know this is kinda a curve-ball, But wouldn't the Relic weapon itself be more of an accomplishment than the Sh*tty mostly useless Relic Weaponskills?

Not only would a random quested WS not get the Aftermath, It wouldn't get the DMG boost the Relic Weapons give Relic WS's on the Level 90+ Relics. (yes, Relic Ws's got a (I think it was 25%?) Boost on the 90 Weapons, Still shit mostly though).

So the Relic WS's would still be junk. Which begs the question why make them Questable, But at the same time, The anger from Relic owners over the thought of someone suggesting a Quest for them is unbelievable. They are all mostly terrible, and the True Reward form Relic Weapons is the Weapon itself, some cases, the Aftermath, not the Weaponskill. (Maybe in terms of Bow/Gun the WS, and Mercy Stroke...? Catasrophe has been about the Aftermath for the most part.)

I wouldn't mind either way, But as it stands, There are ways to use Relic Weaponskills outside of Relic Weapons (The fake-Relics in abyssea), theres ways to use empyrean weapons outside of Empyrean Weapon (WoE Gimpyreans), and theres ways to use Mythic Weaponskills outside of Mythic Weapons (The Mythic WS Quest).

SE clearly decided they wanted more than 1 way to use the above WS, and each one was given its own unique way to obtain it with less effort than the "Real" Relic/Etc. I don't see Relic/Empr being "Questable" on the same level as Mythics ever.

However, I would not be against the idea, I just see it being very unlikely.

And that theres way too much Anger from both sides over some arguably Terrible Weaponskills.

[Andylynn]

@Andylynn
Simply because I'd like to be able to use the WS w/o being forced to use a certain weapon?


and again, i ask, why? if you have to get some of the best weapons in the game to use them, whyon earth would you want to use a different weapon?

[Rambus]

First I'd like to say, The chances of empyrean wS being quests are probably 0%. you have 2 Weapon choices to get them already, One of them Clearly designed to be the "Easier" choice to just have the WS.

Secondly, In terms of Relic weapons... I know this is kinda a curve-ball, But wouldn't the Relic weapon itself be more of an accomplishment than the Sh*tty mostly useless Relic Weaponskills?

Not only would a random quested WS not get the Aftermath, It wouldn't get the DMG boost the Relic Weapons give Relic WS's on the Level 90+ Relics. (yes, Relic Ws's got a (I think it was 25%?) Boost on the 90 Weapons, Still shit mostly though).

So the Relic WS's would still be junk. Which begs the question why make them Questable, But at the same time, The anger from Relic owners over the thought of someone suggesting a Quest for them is unbelievable. They are all mostly terrible, and the True Reward form Relic Weapons is the Weapon itself, some cases, the Aftermath, not the Weaponskill. (Maybe in terms of Bow/Gun the WS, and Mercy Stroke...? Catasrophe has been about the Aftermath for the most part.)

I wouldn't mind either way, But as it stands, There are ways to use Relic Weaponskills outside of Relic Weapons (The fake-Relics in abyssea), theres ways to use empyrean weapons outside of Empyrean Weapon (WoE Gimpyreans), and theres ways to use Mythic Weaponskills outside of Mythic Weapons (The Mythic WS Quest).

SE clearly decided they wanted more than 1 way to use the above WS, and each one was given its own unique way to obtain it with less effort than the "Real" Relic/Etc. I don't see Relic/Empr being "Questable" on the same level as Mythics ever.

However, I would not be against the idea, I just see it being very unlikely.

And that theres way too much Anger from both sides over some arguably Terrible Weaponskills.

I see you sounding like me in trying to take both sides, one hand you got relic weapons and keeping the relic ws on that weapon for relfection, then the other hand you have the ws is so bad without the relic weapon why care?

for an accomplishment means others knowing you did it right? What are you achieving if no one gives recognition? I did not say anything but the other night I saw someone say "hey xxx neat scythe" (it was the shinru scythe twlight scythe?) and yet no one points out the next person having an emp bow doing 2-3k damage ws or even pointing out mine.

In other words I feel it makes the weapon's reflection less of an accomplishment if everyone can use ws x from high end weapon y.

back in the day you see someone using one of those ws it was like omg he has a relic now people think those abyssea weapons could be relics......

I do understand you can rebuttal me and saying you, yourself know what you accomplish or don't expect people to comment on your gear/ weapons. I do not want to sound elitist or anything in saying I expect parse but at the same time I find it strange that people can mistake the relic ws abyssea weapons for being a relic just because it has the ws.

The only difference questing for relic ws to be used on any weapon like mythic are is the social value is my only point. Basically if anyone can use a relic ws, its not easy for the average person to release oh that’s a relic weapon ( point back to my GA abyssea weapon example)

I would look at it like this, what is gained for making relic ws appear for everyone? Really nothing unless you want a different sc starter. ( like for my GA if i get the opportunity of being lucky I would ranging rush> raging rush> relic ws for light. That holds little tatical vaule since you have other ways of making light ( can just KJ someone). the mythic ws did brige a lot of jobs in being more sc friendly as is, like drk getting a fusion on scythe. then you have emps on top of it. I still think it is a shame now that mythics got stuck on level 1/ level 2 ( some level 2/ level 2) when emps have level 2, level 3

So my basic question is this for people that really want this. Why should SE make such a quest vs worring about other matters that need more fixing? ( like mythic, relic weapons vs emp weapons, AH slots, fellow NPC issues, other bug fixes and so on)

[Kazen]

It sounds like you need to suck it up Seriha and either work towards an emp weapon (slowly) or not do it at all. The emp group I'm in consists of 5 people and in 1 1/2 months we've completed Gaxe(90), Dagger(85), H2h(85), Katana(85), Gkt(85) and the dagger/h2h are about halfway done to 90 each because we're doing both at the same time. I'm sure you'll be thinking our playtime must be enormous, however, we only work on weapons for at most 3 hours a night.

[Seriha]

It sounds like you need to suck it up Seriha and either work towards an emp weapon (slowly) or not do it at all. The emp group I'm in consists of 5 people and in 1 1/2 months we've completed Gaxe(90), Dagger(85), H2h(85), Katana(85), Gkt(85) and the dagger/h2h are about halfway done to 90 each because we're doing both at the same time. I'm sure you'll be thinking our playtime must be enormous, however, we only work on weapons for at most 3 hours a night.

It's not so much thinking you have oodles of time, you're just more fortunate to be able act upon it more frequently (7 nights as opposed to 3). Having 5 people in contrast to my own semi-reliable 3 is also beneficial in being able to stockpile more KIs and basically cut down on the average time needed to fight one of the item dropping NMs. Sure, things would still get done eventually, but I don't think anyone would willingly want to take the proposed 20-30 weeks when someone in your position can manage in 3-9. Months upon months upon months of work is a very risky carrot to dangle in front of MMO players these days, and while some may chase it no matter what, it doesn't mean that chase was done right. You've got a good thing going. I'm envious, even. Those who can hammer one out in 3-4 days, though, are not the norm and certainly aren't the ones who stand to benefit from the idea.

Still, that's a bit tangential to the main point. Seems like a lot against the idea are undervaluing the weapons themselves. I share the concern in not wanting the Empyrean path to wind up useless, but demanding the WS be married exclusively is silly as the game has already thrown them around in one form or another. The WoE versions just happen to be better than the fake relics in terms of reliability (no latent gimmicks) and overall WS quality. Expanding on that won't end Vana'diel like some would want us to believe.

[Kazen]

So you what something for nothing(because lets face it, WS points are a joke)? Ok gotcha. The entire point of doing a WoE weapon is the WS and the emp the WS/aftermath. If you want the WS that badly do the WoE weapon; you can clear an entire chamber with less than a pt and it only takes a 30 minute commitment.

[Flunklesnarkin]

So you what something for nothing(because lets face it, WS points are a joke)? Ok gotcha. The entire point of doing a WoE weapon is the WS and the emp the WS/aftermath. If you want the WS that badly do the WoE weapon; you can clear an entire chamber with less than a pt and it only takes a 30 minute commitment.

I think you miss the point.. its not something for nothing..

its a quest.. and its still just an idea on the drawing board..

nobody has even proposed how difficult of a quest it should be.


I think the big reason this was proposed is there is so much crying from relic owners about how overpowered empyrean ws's are.. that if they just made them questable... even if it was a retarded god awful quest.. relic owners wouldn't really have anything to bitch about.. because they could ungimp their weapons.

[Seriha]

No, hardly nothing. Myself and others have felt that should it be possible to permanently have access to the Emp WS, having at least the WoE weapon should be a requirement to initiate the subsequent quest(s). As is, if we wish to keep access, that means forever having to use said weapon. That's basically saying your weapon progression stops unless some off-hands are a possibility and until maybe a trial or two comes with each update.

Perhaps you could call it the Zilart effect, but I don't want old equipment to be the best for years upon years again. The pinnacle variants of Relics, Mythics, and Empyreans stand as an exception to this, but their justification lies in a mix of difficulty to acquire and the unique perks they get on top that should ideally make them better than any weapon below. If this isn't the case, SE's dropped the ball on their design. So, in part, I'm calling for buffs to those. Then again, I've also felt the requirements for Relics and Mythics to be too harsh, so easing those conditions wouldn't be objected against by myself or others... save maybe those whose feelings will be hurt by more people getting access to content that's designed to be... accessed.

[Andylynn]

I think you miss the point.. its not something for nothing..

its a quest.. and its still just an idea on the drawing board..

nobody has even proposed how difficult of a quest it should be.


I think the big reason this was proposed is there is so much crying from relic owners about how overpowered empyrean ws's are.. that if they just made them questable... even if it was a retarded god awful quest.. relic owners wouldn't really have anything to bitch about.. because they could ungimp their weapons.

It doesn't ungimp their weapon if their ws stinks to begin with. They are complaining because its outrageous how powerful empyrean ws are compared to relic. Using relic ws on a weaker dmg weapon is doing no one any favors.

You have another option if you do not have the friends or time investment for constant Abyssea to reach the final product. The utility weapons and woe weapons fufill your request, and not much more is needed after that. The fact these guys want the player to have the weapon to begin with first totally removes the point in questing them, as usually the weapon they come on is superior to others out there.

WS points are a joke, a group NM that could probably be brought down AV style, etc is not going to make this anymore a reasonable request. A tool does not deserve to have a godly weaponskill in their hands, it's bad enough mot people don't even know how to use their normal WS properly, what are they going to do if everyone is in godmode on easymode of a game. This is an awful idea, plain and simple, and no drawing board/brainstorming would make it worthwhile.

[Kazen]

I'm going to have to disagree with you then. What point is there if they have no sort of individuality. Think of it as SE's way of catering to the more end game oriented people with a specific set of content (in this case relics/mythics/emps). The point of a game is to have content everyone will enjoy, and there are certain groups of people who play to be the best. I look at all forms of relic weapons as this pinnacle that SE has added for this type of player. Everyone can not have everything if they want the game to be successful; certain pieces of gear are added to be rare to create this sense of a more elite player that more of the casual players strive to be. I don't play nearly as much anymore as when I first started so I have no issues if I'm no longer considered among "the best" anymore; I was once in that position and it was fun while I had that time available to me but now I'm happy just having one Emp weapon.

[Andylynn]

I'm going to have to disagree with you then. What point is there if they have no sort of individuality. Think of it as SE's way of catering to the more end game oriented people with a specific set of content (in this case relics/mythics/emps). The point of a game is to have content everyone will enjoy, and there are certain groups of people who play to be the best. I look at all forms of relic weapons as this pinnacle that SE has added for this type of player. Everyone can not have everything if they want the game to be successful; certain pieces of gear are added to be rare to create this sense of a more elite player that more of the casual players strive to be. I don't play nearly as much anymore as when I first started so I have no issues if I'm no longer considered among "the best" anymore; I was once in that position and it was fun while I had that time available to me but now I'm happy just having one Emp weapon.

How does it remove individuality? You have a truck ton of magian trials allowing anyone to customize their weaponry as they please, if you gave people the end game ws on any weapon of their choosing, you would kill the individuality, because anyone with half a mind is going to go for the higest damage weapon. Therefore, it will result in over camping of certain NMs be they Orthrus, (widowmaker's nm), Empousa, etc. People will all have the same cookie cutter weapon, spamming the same ungodly powerful ws, and that would just be plain dumb. Your 'point' is self defeating, as there is no point in giving everyone an easy mode.

[Kazen]

How does it remove individuality? You have a truck ton of magian trials allowing anyone to customize their weaponry as they please, if you gave people the end game ws on any weapon of their choosing, you would kill the individuality, because anyone with half a mind is going to go for the higest damage weapon. Therefore, it will result in over camping of certain NMs be they Orthrus, (widowmaker's nm), Empousa, etc. People will all have the same cookie cutter weapon, spamming the same ungodly powerful ws, and that would just be plain dumb. Your 'point' is self defeating, as there is no point in giving everyone an easy mode.

I think you're mistaken; my reply was meant to Seriha, not you.

[Andylynn]

I think you're mistaken; my reply was meant to Seriha, not you.
Then utilize quotations so one knows who you are replying to. It being under mine makes it ambigious.
If we look at it that way, mine can be a response to her as well.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I'm going to have to disagree with you then. What point is there if they have no sort of individuality. Think of it as SE's way of catering to the more end game oriented people with a specific set of content (in this case relics/mythics/emps). The point of a game is to have content everyone will enjoy, and there are certain groups of people who play to be the best. I look at all forms of relic weapons as this pinnacle that SE has added for this type of player. Everyone can not have everything if they want the game to be successful; certain pieces of gear are added to be rare to create this sense of a more elite player that more of the casual players strive to be. I don't play nearly as much anymore as when I first started so I have no issues if I'm no longer considered among "the best" anymore; I was once in that position and it was fun while I had that time available to me but now I'm happy just having one Emp weapon.

I do agree that there should be an obvious best weapon in the game.. but i don't think it should be a relic / mythic / empyrean weapon..


which is why I think making the weaponskills questable wouldn't be a horrible thing..

If SE plans on adding new endgame content.. and adds a new ultimate weapon..

making the weaponskills questable wouldn't ruin the epeen for the people who play to be the best.

[Seriha]

The fact these guys want the player to have the weapon to begin with first totally removes the point in questing them, as usually the weapon they come on is superior to others out there.

I think you're underestimating utility values that could be brought in by various weapons. DA paths could mean more frequent WS and higher average WS damage. The TP Bonus/WS DMG% do their obvious thing. Same with STP. Maybe you need more ATK, ACC, or even -PDT. And that's just looking at magian trials and ignoring things like Isador for BLUs or other crafted/dropped weapons that have and have yet to be released.

I'm still looking at this from the mindset that Abyssea isn't forever, either. Some of these WS lose their luster when you're suddenly minus gigantic crit rate boosts or triple attack on jobs who'd otherwise not get it thanks to atma. Do you still want people using Rampage, Vorpal Blade, Gekko, Guillotine, and so on at 99? I don't. Can't really say some of the skill learned WS they added are upgrades, either. Or you can be in RDM's shoes where Sanguine Blade would be nice to have, but SE saw fit to make it an EX WS.

[Kazen]

I'm not speaking in "ifs", if that happens later down the road then so be it; as it stands now Emps are the best so the weaponskills that correspond to the weapon should remain exclusive.

[Andylynn]

I do agree that there should be an obvious best weapon in the game.. but i don't think it should be a relic / mythic / empyrean weapon..


which is why I think making the weaponskills questable wouldn't be a horrible thing..

If SE plans on adding new endgame content.. and adds a new ultimate weapon..

making the weaponskills questable wouldn't ruin the epeen for the people who play to be the best.

Not going to happen, they already have a plethora of balancing acts to perform between relic mythic and empyrean, why would they add another set of problems to the equation?

[Flunklesnarkin]

Not going to happen, they already have a plethora of balancing acts to perform between relic mythic and empyrean, why would they add another set of problems to the equation?

I think the reason they would make an obvious best weapon is so they don't have to balance 3 sets of weapons

and making an ultimate weapon tied to old outdated (easy prey) content is silly imo ;o

yes relics use to mean something.. now all it means is you have a small group of people who can farm weak mobs and one of those people happens to have sleepga >_>

but yes.. if they make a new ultimate weapon then i wouldn't see a huge issue with these being questable...

if they didn't then no they shouldn't.


I do hope they can make a weapon to put relic / mythic / empyrean to shame... I can see fault with all 3 of those weapons being the best.

[Andylynn]

I think the reason they would make an obvious best weapon is so they don't have to balance 3 sets of weapons

and making an ultimate weapon tied to old outdated (easy prey) content is silly imo ;o

yes relics use to mean something.. now all it means is you have a small group of people who can farm weak mobs and one of those people happens to have sleepga >_>

but yes.. if they make a new ultimate weapon then i wouldn't see a huge issue with these being questable...

if they didn't then no they shouldn't.


I do hope they can make a weapon to put relic / mythic / empyrean to shame... I can see fault with all 3 of those weapons being the best.

That would only bring in a plethora of complaints from all 3 types of weapon users -_-. That would only serve to create more problems, not solve any.

[Flunklesnarkin]

That would only bring in a plethora of complaints from all 3 types of weapon users -_-. That would only serve to create more problems, not solve any.

Idk I could see a sort of beautiful irony in all of it....

Everybody is arguing about which weapon from outdated.. and soon to be outdated content should be the best.. when the correct answer would be none of them ^^

a new ultimate grind weapon taking years to complete and requiring an alliance to make would be a useful addition to the game imo

instead of finishing an empyrean in a few days in a duo/trio.. or power grinding dynamis with 6 or less... or farming salvage like i do.. (I'll finish my mythic one of these days >_<)

[Nacht]

This is a bit late, but...



Nah, let's run with a variant of your school reference through a grading scale.
A+: Empyreans and the ODD Aftermath.
B: Quested WS with a good weapon used over the WoE version.
C: WoE weapon with the WS not yet learned for B.
D and below: Those noobs we all hate, right?

The only time B ever chances bettering A+ and eliminating any and all incentive is if the subsequent trials for the Empyreans result in almost no actual sense of an upgrade. By default, we can expect more tacked onto the Damage rating and the currently listed stat boosts. There's nothing stopping SE from tweaking, say, Almace's delay down to 210 from 224 or giving CDC from it a partial MP return based on the damage done.


In the case of elemental weaponskills, the damage of the weapon is not related to the damage of the weaponskill. In the case of Armageddon, if the WS were questable, the absolute best gun would be the occasionally attacks 2-4 times gun. The increase in WS frequency overshadows the change in damage per shot from ranged attacks. Allowing empyrean WS to be questable is essentially obsoleting the Armageddon.

The main attraction to the gun is the Weaponskill itself, not the damage, and not the aftermath. Those qualities are bonuses that are nice to have, but the weaponskill itself overshadows the other properties of the gun. I would be really pissed off if Wildfire was usable without the WoE or Empy gun. It completely ruins the gun.

[Greatguardian]

a new ultimate grind weapon taking years to complete and requiring an alliance to make would be a useful addition to the game imo

This is everything that was wrong with Relic weapons in the first place. Old school FFXI catered to those who could lead a shell full of Trogs to throw body at content until the leaders got their gear. It's part of why there's such a huge anti-Endgame population out there now. Everybody's got a complex, "I can only be on 3 days a week and my friends have low playtime but I want the best stuff too". Abyssea was the best thing to ever happen to these folks and most proceed to blame it for everything anyways.

[Seriha]

This is a bit late, but...

Yeah, I know not all weapons carry over the same, and my suggestion was basically low-balling an example to prove that something could be done to still maintain the hierarchy. Ideally, you'll need to look at each individual weapon and the jobs on it to decide what additional perks should be present. The MP restore from an Almace's CDC was a nod in that direction as PLD, BLU, and RDM are all MP using jobs. Quietus from a DRK could do something like letting a T3 nuke hit like a T4 with a strong Fast Cast and Conserve MP (I'm running from the angry DRKs now!). Just examples, and more or less a repeated plea for people to keep an open mind about an idea that's not totally without merit unlike Bacon Mage, drop PS2, or whatever.

That said, I'm pretty much out of things to say about all of this and need to get ready to head for my sister's for a few days. I'm sure there will always be some level of agree to disagree, and me just posting this is probably insta-surrender in the eyes of those arguing against me. Oh well. Like I said earlier, I doubt it'll happen. Still fun to fantasize at times, though.

[Flunklesnarkin]

This is everything that was wrong with Relic weapons in the first place. Old school FFXI catered to those who could lead a shell full of Trogs to throw body at content until the leaders got their gear. It's part of why there's such a huge anti-Endgame population out there now. Everybody's got a complex, "I can only be on 3 days a week and my friends have low playtime but I want the best stuff too". Abyssea was the best thing to ever happen to these folks and most proceed to blame it for everything anyways.

It could be an ultimate grind weapon that the entire alliance could work on at the same time.. think like einherjar points.. or the magian vnm trials pre abyssea..

[Karbuncle]

I see you sounding like me in trying to take both sides, one hand you got relic weapons and keeping the relic ws on that weapon for relfection, then the other hand you have the ws is so bad without the relic weapon why care?

for an accomplishment means others knowing you did it right? What are you achieving if no one gives recognition? I did not say anything but the other night I saw someone say "hey xxx neat scythe" (it was the shinru scythe twlight scythe?) and yet no one points out the next person having an emp bow doing 2-3k damage ws or even pointing out mine.

In other words I feel it makes the weapon's reflection less of an accomplishment if everyone can use ws x from high end weapon y.

back in the day you see someone using one of those ws it was like omg he has a relic now people think those abyssea weapons could be relics......

I do understand you can rebuttal me and saying you, yourself know what you accomplish or don't expect people to comment on your gear/ weapons. I do not want to sound elitist or anything in saying I expect parse but at the same time I find it strange that people can mistake the relic ws abyssea weapons for being a relic just because it has the ws.

The only difference questing for relic ws to be used on any weapon like mythic are is the social value is my only point. Basically if anyone can use a relic ws, its not easy for the average person to release oh that’s a relic weapon ( point back to my GA abyssea weapon example)

I would look at it like this, what is gained for making relic ws appear for everyone? Really nothing unless you want a different sc starter. ( like for my GA if i get the opportunity of being lucky I would ranging rush> raging rush> relic ws for light. That holds little tatical vaule since you have other ways of making light ( can just KJ someone). the mythic ws did brige a lot of jobs in being more sc friendly as is, like drk getting a fusion on scythe. then you have emps on top of it. I still think it is a shame now that mythics got stuck on level 1/ level 2 ( some level 2/ level 2) when emps have level 2, level 3

So my basic question is this for people that really want this. Why should SE make such a quest vs worring about other matters that need more fixing? ( like mythic, relic weapons vs emp weapons, AH slots, fellow NPC issues, other bug fixes and so on)

Sorry I went to bed :|

Anyway, As for your question about why add Relic WS's if they'd be mostly useless? Thats one thing i attempted to address. There would be no point i could see. the WS would be useless outside of Aesthetic purposes. Which is why In the second or third paragraph i plainly state that its incredibly unlikley Relic/Empyrean WS will ever be added because they each already have 2 procurement methods. However, Mythic Weapons were added to quests for seemingly no reason but to add content. They could have easily been Mythic Exclusive just like Relic weapons.

Now, If your argument is "I don't want you to have it cause it makes me feel less special and i don't get enough people telling me "cool armor bro"" I just don't think that's a fair assessment.

You got a Relic Bow, Its a magnificent Achievement, Personally I'd of gotten the gun, but the Bow Is damn nice for SAM? I see someone with a Relic, I'll check them, probably say "Cool stuff" IRL, but i'm not going to pat them or send them a tell, they're probably afk or got better things to do. To be frank, Most Relic holders are Dicks. not all of them, but a lot of them. So i tend to just say "cool" and move on. Other decent one I've met so far is Shamaya :\

But, I DO understand your perspective, You worked all this time for something and you get no recognition, While the guy with Twilight Scythe probably spent 5 minutes leeching a Brewed run for his Weapon, and he gets Recognition for it. I'd be pretty tweaked too, but that's no reason to hold malice toward those people or use it as a Reason to hold relic WS.

I guess what I'm saying is a see your point, But at the same time, Rather we keep relic WS's exclusive, or give them to a quest, It won't change how people react to your relic. Some people will ignore it thinking you're probably an elitist, Some people will probably pat you on the back. I completely get the idea of wanting others to recognize your achievements in an MMO, hell when i got my maats cap back before Abyssea I wore that shit in town all the time. Now any idiot with enough Cruor can get one and Its also mostly useless, nearly completely useless. But i don't blame SE For it, And truthfully if they handed out maat's caps i'd be like "oh well, its useless, And i got mine the enjoyable way"

Then again, I'm a guy who looks more at the Journey, not the destination. You seem to be about Rewards and Recognition. nothing wrong with either.

but i digress. Really, I Don't care either way if they add Relic WSs' to quests or not, I strongly Strongly doubt they ever will, But if they did I probably wouldn't care too much. If anything I'd get them for fun, But they'd be useless. So, to answer again your final statement.

"Why should SE make such a quest vs worring about other matters that need more fixing?"

I don't think they should. But the "Content focusing" Argument Isn't a really good one. Them not doing this isn't going to guarantee they'll fix Relics/Mythics, or allow us to put more stuff on AH. in fact Doing this would probably take as much effort as copy > pasting Mythic Weaponskill Quest onto Trial of the Magians with a few tweaks.

but again, Either way i really do not mind. I, again as i said in my first post, Think theres just entirely too much anger coming from both sides of the argument when these weaponskills are not worth the trouble. (Relic ones, Empyreans I won't even bother discussing cause the idea of "Questing" them is dumb when Trial of the Magians is a quest, and theres already 2 methods)

[Rambus]

No, hardly nothing. Myself and others have felt that should it be possible to permanently have access to the Emp WS, having at least the WoE weapon should be a requirement to initiate the subsequent quest(s). As is, if we wish to keep access, that means forever having to use said weapon. That's basically saying your weapon progression stops unless some off-hands are a possibility and until maybe a trial or two comes with each update.

Perhaps you could call it the Zilart effect, but I don't want old equipment to be the best for years upon years again. The pinnacle variants of Relics, Mythics, and Empyreans stand as an exception to this, but their justification lies in a mix of difficulty to acquire and the unique perks they get on top that should ideally make them better than any weapon below. If this isn't the case, SE's dropped the ball on their design. So, in part, I'm calling for buffs to those. Then again, I've also felt the requirements for Relics and Mythics to be too harsh, so easing those conditions wouldn't be objected against by myself or others... save maybe those whose feelings will be hurt by more people getting access to content that's designed to be... accessed.

Comment to you building off some other stamtements:

most emp ws are not even great to begin with, if you put emp ws on any weapon then you will have everyone and thier mother doing GA str route.

It is a bad idea to try put emp, and relic we for everyone to have.

If you do not like old gear being useable why are you playing this game? relics are not the only thing being used at 90.

FFXI is not like other MNO, what other game has a quest that takes 2-5 years? There would be issue if ALL old gear was the best but that is not the case, what is the issue with allowing some old really good gear to be infused into new quests to make them good?

the magian trials for relics and mythics was not the first time SE made upgradeable gear, what about AF > af+1 and relic > relic +1? and the future plans with other old gear though syngery?


Sorry I went to bed :|

Anyway, As for your question about why add Relic WS's if they'd be mostly useless? Thats one thing i attempted to address. There would be no point i could see. the WS would be useless outside of Aesthetic purposes. Which is why In the second or third paragraph i plainly state that its incredibly unlikley Relic/Empyrean WS will ever be added because they each already have 2 procurement methods. However, Mythic Weapons were added to quests for seemingly no reason but to add content. They could have easily been Mythic Exclusive just like Relic weapons.

Now, If your argument is "I don't want you to have it cause it makes me feel less special and i don't get enough people telling me "cool armor bro"" I just don't think that's a fair assessment.

You got a Relic Bow, Its a magnificent Achievement, Personally I'd of gotten the gun, but the Bow Is damn nice for SAM? I see someone with a Relic, I'll check them, probably say "Cool stuff" IRL, but i'm not going to pat them or send them a tell, they're probably afk or got better things to do. To be frank, Most Relic holders are Dicks. not all of them, but a lot of them. So i tend to just say "cool" and move on. Other decent one I've met so far is Shamaya :\

But, I DO understand your perspective, You worked all this time for something and you get no recognition, While the guy with Twilight Scythe probably spent 5 minutes leeching a Brewed run for his Weapon, and he gets Recognition for it. I'd be pretty tweaked too, but that's no reason to hold malice toward those people or use it as a Reason to hold relic WS.

I guess what I'm saying is a see your point, But at the same time, Rather we keep relic WS's exclusive, or give them to a quest, It won't change how people react to your relic. Some people will ignore it thinking you're probably an elitist, Some people will probably pat you on the back. I completely get the idea of wanting others to recognize your achievements in an MMO, hell when i got my maats cap back before Abyssea I wore that shit in town all the time. Now any idiot with enough Cruor can get one and Its also mostly useless, nearly completely useless. But i don't blame SE For it, And truthfully if they handed out maat's caps i'd be like "oh well, its useless, And i got mine the enjoyable way"

Then again, I'm a guy who looks more at the Journey, not the destination. You seem to be about Rewards and Recognition. nothing wrong with either.

but i digress. Really, I Don't care either way if they add Relic WSs' to quests or not, I strongly Strongly doubt they ever will, But if they did I probably wouldn't care too much. If anything I'd get them for fun, But they'd be useless. So, to answer again your final statement.

"Why should SE make such a quest vs worring about other matters that need more fixing?"

I don't think they should. But the "Content focusing" Argument Isn't a really good one. Them not doing this isn't going to guarantee they'll fix Relics/Mythics, or allow us to put more stuff on AH. in fact Doing this would probably take as much effort as copy > pasting Mythic Weaponskill Quest onto Trial of the Magians with a few tweaks.

but again, Either way i really do not mind. I, again as i said in my first post, Think theres just entirely too much anger coming from both sides of the argument when these weaponskills are not worth the trouble. (Relic ones, Empyreans I won't even bother discussing cause the idea of "Questing" them is dumb when Trial of the Magians is a quest, and theres already 2 methods)

I get everything you are saying but i just want ot point out my other comment, some guy though I had a relic GA because I used the ws ( was abyssea drop)

I just find it funny I got recognition on some drop and not the real thing, I do not expect parse, just stating an overstation.

[Malamasala]

(Relic ones, Empyreans I won't even bother discussing cause the idea of "Questing" them is dumb when Trial of the Magians is a quest, and theres already 2 methods)

The staff is a good example of an empyrean hardly worth making, but a WS that would be good on your main weapon. While the mythics are good weapons, with terrible WSes. Guess which ones were made available. Sometimes I wonder if the SE developers do not play mage jobs at all.

[Karbuncle]

The staff is a good example of an empyrean hardly worth making, but a WS that would be good on your main weapon. While the mythics are good weapons, with terrible WSes. Guess which ones were made available. Sometimes I wonder if the SE developers do not play mage jobs at all.

They probably Don't, But uses and reason aside, Looking at the current track record, I simply do not believe we will ever seem Empyrean/Relic WS's added to a quest to be made permanently usable :|, While it would be really fun for me to get Mercy Stroke whenever, or be able to use ...... You know i can't think of another decent Relic WS and i have like 9 jobs at level 90...

But anyway, While i think it'd be fun, I simply don't see it happening is all ...

[Greatguardian]

The staff is a good example of an empyrean hardly worth making, but a WS that would be good on your main weapon. While the mythics are good weapons, with terrible WSes. Guess which ones were made available. Sometimes I wonder if the SE developers do not play mage jobs at all.

I'd be forced to wonder why any mage would be hitting the mob or using the same weapon long enough to get 100TP, really. WHM and the club WS? Maybe, but those dozen or so across all servers who would do it right already have a WoE/Emp club.

[Andylynn]

You know i can't think of another decent Relic WS
Metatron, Kaiten. They both do decent damage.

[Karbuncle]

Metatron, Kaiten. They both do decent damage.

I think (99% sure) Raging Rush Stomps Metatron in every way, It wouldn't be worth using ever outside of Shiny-ness. Which is why I didn't mention it :|

Kaiten perhaps, But SAM isn't one of my 90 jobs so i don't know how it preforms next to Gekko :( I've already read mixed reviews.

[Andylynn]

I think (99% sure) Raging Rush Stomps Metatron in every way, It wouldn't be worth using ever outside of Shiny-ness. Which is why I didn't mention it :|

Kaiten perhaps, But SAM isn't one of my 90 jobs so i don't know how it preforms next to Gekko :( I've already read mixed reviews.
90 Kaiten is comparable to Fudo.

[Karbuncle]

90 Kaiten is comparable to Fudo.

Interesting. I would like to see that actually, Sounds pretty good.

[Kazen]

Going by the modifiers it seems Tachi: Fudo will be the better of the two by a decent margin.

[Andylynn]

Going by the modifiers it seems Tachi: Fudo will be the better of the two by a decent margin.

Word on fan forums say 90 relics have 25% ws damage boost or something similar.

from BG:

friend finished GA
some test:

WAR90/THF23(lol)
STR83
no Gorget MAX DMG=2246
2246=WSD 714

(D155+D42)x2.75=541.75
714/541=1.319

STR83+71
with Gorget=2802 DMG
2802=WSD 860
(155+7x2.75=640.75
860/640=1.34375
WS damage increase 35%?

not sure but also heared about LV90 Amanomurakumo.
Kaiten got 25% bonus.
and Lv90 Burtgang, Max Atonement dmg is 860.

so.. I guess
Relic:
x3.0 WS=25% bonus
x2.75 WS=35% bonus
Mythic=15% bonus

[Zumi]

WoE weapons are just that Weapons without the aftermath if you want one they are fairly easy to obtain.

[wildsprite]

for Relic WSs I think it would only be fair to force the person that wants the WS to fully upgrade the real weapon that WS came from not the fake ones, if you think about it many people worked hard to get their relics upgraded, making a quest that didn't require this would be like a big slap in the face for them

[Hayward]

for Relic WSs I think it would only be fair to force the person that wants the WS to fully upgrade the real weapon that WS came from not the fake ones, if you think about it many people worked hard to get their relics upgraded, making a quest that didn't require this would be like a big slap in the face for them

That's a load of junk and you all know it. For a bunch of elitists, you all have some ridiculously fragile egos to be so hostile to the idea of questing Relic/Empyrean Weapon skills. Take a look at your Relic (90)/Empyrean (90) weapon...(waiting)...now tell me how in the world a so-called "gimp" (i.e. someone who doesn't play FFXI 24/7, I guess) is going to suddenly be so much better than you just because he/she is able to gain access to another weapon skill.

All the hot air I've been reading on this thread amounts to little more than juvenile-level insecurity--I'd say high school, but that'd be slanderous to high schoolers. On a game, no less.

[Greatguardian]

That's a load of junk and you all know it. For a bunch of elitists, you all have some ridiculously fragile egos to be so hostile to the idea of questing Relic/Empyrean Weapon skills. Take a look at your Relic (90)/Empyrean (90) weapon...(waiting)...now tell me how in the world a so-called "gimp" (i.e. someone who doesn't play FFXI 24/7, I guess) is going to suddenly be so much better than you just because he/she is able to gain access to another weapon skill.

All the hot air I've been reading on this thread amounts to little more than juvenile-level insecurity--I'd say high school, but that'd be slanderous to high schoolers. On a game, no less.

So much rage. Did I kick your puppy in game or something? I don't think wildsprite is even from BG, or any sort of "elite" subgroup.

As far as Empyreans, and most of the Mythics go, the Weaponskill is the single biggest aspect of the weapon itself. Yet, all 3 unique WS (Emp, Mythic, and Relic) are already attainable for people without full weapons. WoE weapons are soloable. Faux Relics are just blue !! drops. Mythic WS are completely questable because Mythics just plain don't exist anywhere anyways.

What's elitist about keeping Emp WS "unique" to Emp or WoE weapons? It's not like WoE weapons are anywhere near difficult to complete. Any average joe can do it and receive a huge DD boost. And you know what? Any quest for an Emp weapon may as well be as long/tedious as a WoE weapon is to make anyways, so it's not like anyone's saving any time/energy by campaigning to make the WS even easier to get.

But really. When did I kick your puppy? I don't think we've ever even interacted in-game in a less than friendly manner.

[Leonlionheart]

@OP:

no, ty.

I wouldn't mind if the 90/95/99 versions had huge damage bonuses, or the quested versions had damage decreases, but still it kind of detracts from the point of Empyrean and Relic weapons doesn't it? IDK, if I had a Apocalypse and then every drk and their mother started using catastrophe I'd be rather upset.

Making Empyrean WS's quested would totally ruin WoE weapons too, unless the quest was to make a WoE weapon, in which case w/e.

[wildsprite]

I'm not elitist, far from it(I didnt even know what BG was till I went over and saw a link to it on ffxi auctionhouse, I looked at their site, its not that impressive, pretty far from it infact) I don't have a pimp or gimp attitude on things either, but I'm not afraid to tell my opinions, and guess what, that is exactly what I posted, my opinion, you took that and twisted it, I try to keep what I say civil and not give personal attacks

also I should add right now my gear is pretty gimp, but I dont mind the idea of working on my relic maul to get the mjollnir, it will be costly and timely to do but I'm gonna shoot for it anyway, I am in no way elitist, I despise the elitist attitudes of many of the players, and I am the one who dares to attempt to be different in ways I'm told I shouldn't do

[Malamasala]

I just think it is ridiculous there are no lower damage, but higher TP gain weapons with empyrean WSes on. Just either High damage empyrean, or slightly less damage copy. Myrkr for example is made for that kind of weapon... but SE never added on. They are too busy overpowering the melee to pay attention to mages.

[Coldbrand]

Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.