Living in fear of more monipulators, both weak and strong, being nerfed to oblivion

[Edyth]

What is the balance philosophy in Monstrosity? I'm worried that weak monsters will be nerfed into something even more unusable, and I'm worried that the fun monsters will have the fun sucked right out of them.

Seeing that "balance adjustments" are in store for monstrosity in December has me concerned. I feel like, "Can you please tell us which monipulators will be unusably bad so we can level them before the update and unlock the species those monipulators lead to?"

Raptor, a very weak and dreadful monipulator to level, was nerfed as mercilessly as Embrava in the last update. It had TP moves that were useless in the first place (ex. Thunderbolt/breath whatever) that were made to cost more TP, and its only 1/4th decent excuse for a TP move (Chomp Rush) was nerfed in power.

I haven't touched antlions yet, but I hear that Mandibular Bite was nerfed so badly that it's like SE thought antlions were getting Chain #99 (I'm sure they weren't), and now antlions are unusable and miserable.

I'm also worried that the monipulators who take dozens of hours to unlock (Cerberus, Behemoth) will be nerfed to oblivion. If that happens, it would be like nerfing RME weapons, or Atma of the Savior, or Black Belt. Those monsters take so long to obtain that they need to be as powerful as they are so that they're worth it and so that they live up to their repuation.

Then, there are random monipulators that are just an absolute blast to level; they're unexpectedly fun and strong and they make Monstrosity the fun that it is. I'm worried that those monsters will be weeded out and treated like they're throwing off the balance of absolutely everything in FFXI just by being very fun, useful, and strong within their limited event.

Is anyone else worried about this? I stumbled upon a very lovable monipulator today who shall not be named, and I'm positive this one will be absolutely no fun after the update.

TL;DR: Monstrosity is fun, but its effects on the game are limited to the event itself and the zones where it takes place. Strong monipulators don't upset balance like Embrava and Perfect Defense did. And if gladiators are struggling against monipulators, they are able to make groups of up to 18. Besides, monstrosity is about the monsters, not the gladiators. I'm worried all fun and strong monsters will be weeded out and nerfed, and more horribly weak monsters will be targeted and made horribly weaker.

[Alhanelem]

I always thought the point of powerful monsters like behemoth etc was to give the feeling that you actually were one of those monsters. It should take a group of people to beat you. If someone is too storng, then why not just form a party and gang up to take him down? That's what it should be like. I reactivated just because of this update because monstrosity sounded fun and I liked the idea of monster PvP. If they take that away, well... I'll be pissed.

[Edyth]

I always thought the point of powerful monsters like behemoth etc was to give the feeling that you actually were one of those monsters. It should take a group of people to beat you. If someone is too storng, then why not just form a party and gang up to take him down? That's what it should be like. I reactivated just because of this update because monstrosity sounded fun and I liked the idea of monster PvP. If they take that away, well... I'll be pissed.

I'm worried they're going to nerf MONs to make them easier for gladiators to solo. There are some surprising strong normal monsters too that I wouldn't dare name, because it's fun to be powerful, and I don't want to put crosshairs on a nice monipulator, but then again, the crosshairs may already be there. They've avoided the word balance for months now, but they're using it again in regards to Monstrosity, and there's a very negative connotation with that word in the FFXI community. It's become synonomous with "super-nerfs," "inaccessibility," "imbalance," and "the worst thing possible."

[Alhanelem]

yeah, like I said, I thought monipulators were supposed to be powerful because gladiators can party against them like any regular monster, and monipulators can't party.

[dasva]

Yeah mand bite used to be pretty strong. Like was hitting 900 dmg to T/VT before they even added jas when I got it at 30. Which was nice since it's the only real dmg move they get in the entire leveling process (for some reason gravatic horn is locked even though it's in the dats). Now it's doing about the same amount of dmg to EPs in the 90s...

As far as the idea of "balancing" things so gladiators can solo them is just all kinds of bad. Namely because monipulators already have almost no incentive to actually fight and if they do the gladiator can just sic a pet on them and run away while the monipulator can't do anything to the pet and if things go bad for them pop a bunch of meds or warp scroll away. While the monipulator can't use items and a single hit will cancel their attempts to "warp" away. On top of that the only good way to get prestige is killing monipulators so basically you will end up having gladiators camping the 3 zones hoping to snipe a monipulator who is only trying to unlock a new model because no one in there right mind would continue leveling in belligerancy zones anymore if a gladiator could take them out one on one unless they absolutely had to. Especially since a nerf that would make it so gladiators could take us out that easy would mean normal mobs could too which would make the xping horrible enough that I'd probably quit playing any of the monsters nerfed that hard. Not to mention make sniping even more of a problem

[Alhanelem]

They need to make the pvp status easier to use. Instead of having to talk to an NPC far away from the areas you fight in, and being subject to a level cap every time they enter that area for every reason, why can't we just have a simple command to turn the pvp flag on and off, like every other MMO?

I have a question though. I thought there was a way for monsters to fight each other? I enter belligerency and i see someone else with the belligerency status and I can't attack them.

[Edyth]

They need to make the pvp status easier to use. Instead of having to talk to an NPC far away from the areas you fight in, and being subject to a level cap every time they enter that area for every reason, why can't we just have a simple command to turn the pvp flag on and off, like every other MMO?

I have a question though. I thought there was a way for monsters to fight each other? I enter belligerency and i see someone else with the belligerency status and I can't attack them.

Coming soon. And I'm really looking forward to that!

[Umichi]

Given the fact that I don't see alot of people PvP'ing on my server It could be that these abilities are to powerful based on the population that actually engages in PvP so perhaps they are scaling it down so smaller groups can fight the monsters without having one person being so one sided as a monster they are impossible to beat. (See pankration)

[Anjou]

Given the fact that I don't see alot of people PvP'ing on my server It could be that these abilities are to powerful based on the population that actually engages in PvP so perhaps they are scaling it down so smaller groups can fight the monsters without having one person being so one sided as a monster they are impossible to beat. (See pankration)

But the problem here Umichi, is that monipulators can't party up with their fellows monipulators, yet players can party up with their friends to gang up and kill monipulators who don't want to fight and just want to get through the dull stage to get to the much better phase so that they can get that next mob to control. Having someone sniping you is frustrating, and monipulators need to have some kind of edge to discourage players who might have a personal grudge or something like that against the person as the monipulator, attack them, and make that aspect of the game miserable. There are people who are like this, I know several of them who would just pick on a player for sheer kicks.

Nerfing monipulators is a bad idea, and it'll make the leveling experience that much more stressful than fun if you have some random passerby coming out of nowhere and slaughtering you.

[Alhanelem]

Also I feel like prestige has a lot more meaning and the title of notorious monster are more highly deserved with the way things are set up now. It won't make as much sense if the balance is shifted towards 1 on 1 battles.

[dasva]

Given the fact that I don't see alot of people PvP'ing on my server It could be that these abilities are to powerful based on the population that actually engages in PvP so perhaps they are scaling it down so smaller groups can fight the monsters without having one person being so one sided as a monster they are impossible to beat. (See pankration)

The imbalance has more to do with how much hp they have as well as just melee power (unless you are a chigoe) then strenght of the moves. I mean most of the moves do less than the monster version would do to you when fighting leveling up old school. Another part of this is who the hell has level 30, 60, 90 capped gear and of course the restriction on gear swapping. Also there is little incentive for the monipulator to actually fight back.

Another problem it lets say you scaled back and nerfed the monsters to where a small group of players could easily win... you'd basically be making the monster barely stronger than players while being forced to xp and lvl off of normal mobs solo. Would you solo melee whm up to 99 or whatever just to unlock another job? That in turn needs to be leveled up again basically only off of eps every few minutes to unlock another one?

As far as being able to win right now it's actually not that hard. Find someone decently under the cap for that zone, wait till they low hp, evasion/blink tank and hope they aren't a mage lol, kiting might work on the ones without movement speed, possibly a full turtle setup, or just throw a pet at them and stay out of range since they wont be able to do anything to the pet

[Umichi]

But the problem here Umichi, is that monipulators can't party up with their fellows monipulators, yet players can party up with their friends to gang up and kill monipulators who don't want to fight and just want to get through the dull stage to get to the much better phase so that they can get that next mob to control. Having someone sniping you is frustrating, and monipulators need to have some kind of edge to discourage players who might have a personal grudge or something like that against the person as the monipulator, attack them, and make that aspect of the game miserable. There are people who are like this, I know several of them who would just pick on a player for sheer kicks.

Nerfing monipulators is a bad idea, and it'll make the leveling experience that much more stressful than fun if you have some random passerby coming out of nowhere and slaughtering you.

Ummm It's called PvP you didn't expect it to be easy did you? don't like PvP'ing there is a peaceful alternative instead of turning on billigerancy... I mean the NPC's even give you a warning that turning on PvP means you go into those zones intending to fight other players.. So go level somewhere else... There are plenty of places... Besides haven't they said monipulators might be able to party up in the future? I believe I also read somewhere that you as a monipulator can link monsters onto players. Is that true? I don't quite PvP yet >_> (Have to make a macro set with no gear changes) :)

[dasva]

Yes there is supposed to be partying up with other monsters later actually expected it to be by now. As far as linking monsters onto players not really but you can run into aggro stuff or things that will link with something that might be on them. Of course it might aggro you too. But if the monster gets the final blow you don't lose anything. Also you can gear change but you can only swap 1 peice at a time and it makes it so you can't do anything else for like 5 seconds. So you don't really have to make new maccros though perhaps might be a good idea to do make the more important peice swap first since that will be the only one changing lol

[Alhanelem]

strange thing is i've had belligerent monipulators warp out as soon as a gladiator checks them, even though I'm alone and would probably get eaten alive- as if they want to just farm infamy over the 10k cap and not actually participate in the content.

[Umichi]

I don't understand it. why even bother turning on billigerency if your intent is to not fight?

[Anjou]

It has more to do with monipulators being miserable killing trash mobs at a slower pace than what they are right now. You think that's fair? You think it's fair that their strength gets sliced in almost literally in half because of 'balance' issues? Tough luck, using balance as an excuse on ffxi is moot at this point, hence the december 11th thing coming up giving people what were once considered the best gear in the game. If people actually cared about balance, they would have stopped this stupid campaign stuff a long time ago, but they didn't Umichi.

You fail to see the point people are trying to convey: They worked for those monster that they play as, the strengths that come with the monsters. Yet SE wants to dumb those monsters down that they worked for. That's not fair to the people who -play monstrosity.

[Alhanelem]

They really need to make a command to toggle belligerency, it could work like level sync:

-Activating the flag in a particular area flags you for PvP and caps you to that area's level restriction and applies gestation.
-- You can only activate the flag if you are not currently on any monster's enmity list.
-Deactivating the flag starts a 30 second countdown (like level sync), after the countdown the level restriction and PvP flag are removed.
-- You can only activate the flag if you are not currently on any monster's enmity list. Getting aggro or attacking before the timer runs out will cancel the process.

Simple, I think.

I ran into a monipulator in belligerency that had gone AFK. Unable to resist, I killed it and instantly ranked up from nothing to CG (got 10k prestige in one shot). While I felt guilty for doing this (As that player probably would have pwned me fighting solo), if the other person could take their flag off it would avoid this (Though the player could have also gone back to town if they needed to go AFK). Perhaps AFK players could have their flag automatically and temporarily disabled if they're idle for a long enough time to prevent this sort of situation.

[dasva]

I don't understand it. why even bother turning on billigerency if your intent is to not fight?

Basically to accumlate more than 10k infamy which is required to buy some subspecies models. If they got rid of that requirement you probably wouldn't see anyone turning it on except to fight people

[Alhanelem]

There isn't much incentive for adventurers to enter belligerency. While there are item rewards, it takes a LOT of prestige, and you have to put yourself at high risk to get it in a reasonable amount of time. The consequences of losing really need to be reduced for both sides. Right now the hit to your prestige or infamy for dying just a single time is huge, equivalent to a few hours of grinding it out on normal monsters.

I understand that in the version update the penalty for monipulators will be adjusted, but this needs to be extended to gladiators as well.

(I was able to take on someone playing on a marid with PUP by kite-nuking the way I would against some NMs, though this wasn't easy even though marids have 60% movement. It does seem like player marids move faster than the real ones)

[Umichi]

ummm the rewards for momipulators are the subspecies you purchase with points... aren't they powerful?

[Alhanelem]

ummm the rewards for momipulators are the subspecies you purchase with points... aren't they powerful?
If you read my post, you'd understand that I'm talking about Gladiators, not monipulators.

It is comparatively more difficult to earn Prestige than infamy. You can earn the latter whether or not you even participate in belligerency (up to a point) where gladiators MUST be in belligerency to earn any at all, and it comes much slower unless you are able to defeat monipulators.

It's fine that the monipulators are powerful. I don't want that to change. However the risk/reward ratio gives low incentive for the gladiator to participate, since you lose 30% of your points every time you die to a monipulator. Even if you gang up on a monipulator there's a good chance of dying. So what needs to happen is the points lost needs to be reduced/eliminated (you have to spend them to get items anyway so I don't know why we have to lose them on death in the first place) and make it purely a reward system. Then gladiators have no reason to be afraid of participating and belligerency is more likely to flourish.

Keep this in mind as well: The Belligerency status is beneficial to Monipulators, whether they fight gladiators or not. Gladiators on the other hand gain nothing from the status (being CG or HCG doesn't confer any benefits) and gain annoyances too, like being unable to ride chocobos as long as they have the key item.

TL;DR: The balance between GLDs and MONs is fine, don't change that. But the point system needs to be less punishing towards both of them. SE announced reducing the penalty against monipulators but nothing about gladiators was said.

They said they were going to make it so merit points could be traded for prestige once a day but all that does is let gladiators buy the items without participating.

[dasva]

Gladiators arguable get more out of flagging belligerancy. Takes all of about a couple of hours to be able to afford new subspecies and then it's back to living less dangerously. The only reason I go farther is so I can convert it to prestige on my mules gladiator lol. But if it wasn't for that I never would flag it since those zones suck to xp in.

Anyways can't gladiators team up? I'd imagine a good pt of players could get decent xp.

[Alhanelem]

Anyways can't gladiators team up? I'd imagine a good pt of players could get decent xp. They can if you can find someone who actually wants to. Otherwise you're stuck trying to find people playing on monsters with reduced movement speed or people that stupidly go AFK with belligerency on. The system is made for people to group up, but nobody seems interested. One factor might be the current rewards, at least for trading prestige, are in non-visible gear slots. I want them to keep monipulators powerful, but II want more reason for gladiators to participate so I can have fun teaming up with them.

Can you summon your adventuring fellow when you're a gladiator? Haven't tried that yet.

[dasva]

Also the monipulator has no incentive to really fight back other than annoyance. So if you can't win easy you run away or disconnect. Being able to exchange infamy for prestige or just let us buy the items with infamy would encourage more monipulators to take risks fighting. And actually making the items not cost so rediculous amounts of infamy for what has so far turned out to be crap to slight sidegrade items. I mean 15k for a 75 torque then 60k to upgrade it enough to evolve than another 60k infamy to max it out? That's 1.35 million xp in crap zones probably fighting ep/dcs just to complete 1 torque. And if you get it from taking it from monipulators because of the whole you always lose more than the oppenent gains thing that's over 2mil xp on the monipulator. Only reason I'm still doing it is to map out all of what we can get and I happen to like just playing. But like you said most people aren't going to give a damn enough to team up until there are better rewards at much more reasonable prices

Would be nice to have a place where you could fight where you didn't lose anything. Even if you didn't gain anything just to do it for fun.

Also a nice thing to have would maybe have a zone of stock monipulator/gladiators to fight kinda like pankration. With different difficulty levels to enter. So you can actually get decent amounts without having to take it from another person.

[Edyth]

I'm glad to see that they delayed or cancelled any nerfs with this last update. I'm not as worried anymore: it seems like they're being more cautious based on player feedback.

[Trumpy]

You also cant use a chocobo for somereason when signed up for being a gladiator. which is why i immediately turned it off on my mule

[Alhanelem]

You also cant use a chocobo for somereason when signed up for being a gladiator. which is why i immediately turned it off on my mule
So that theey don't have a situation where it's possible for players to attack people on chocobos. But yeah, its another thing that gets in the way of participation.

I managed to reach CG but I probably won't reach HCG without running into either a slow monster or an AFK person, since I can't find anyone interested in teaming up.