Please fix thief SE. Tired of being the joke job of FFXI for end game. Job Balance!

[Kiyara]

Now it just seems that the community has gotten so picky beyond belief (due to the fact population is next to none and everyone seems to be in the "only these jobs for everything" mentality) that thf literally has 0 purpose in end game. Aside being told to 'level monk" (get sick of hearing that), thf has to be able to do dmg on some level in end game to be useful.

I know we aren't supposed to be the best nor are we a war or sam etc, but we are a DD, not some backline job that runs to the front to hit the mob once and we stand back the rest of the fight (been told this multiple times and been called useless in every aspect of end game). We can't do voidwatch, delve, hard mode dynamis NMs, hard mode salvage, etc due to our ineffectiveness.

I must be missing something here because the fact that I'm told we can't do anything end game related is unacceptable in my eyes nor am I going to be "bullied" by the server to quit/retire thf and play mnk which is some sorry copout/excuse.

And seriously SE, fix thief. You've been treating us as one of the biggest loljobs since the beginning. In end game, our evasion is useless, our TH is useless, our dps is lacking. Seriously, what do we have? We deserve more than what we have. I didn't level my thf to be a tool. I leveled it to be a solid DD and actually love using the job and playing it to my full potential. I didn't gear it to be a meaningless visual trophy. Leveling another DD is not an acceptable answer. Period.

Here is what I suggest:

1) If you are going to make Treasure Hunter useful, make it useful across the board. This is a star trait yet it almost has 0 application in end game situations. We can't use it in anything that drops a chest/crate/BCNM/etc due to the fact that TH has no bearing on the drop rate. To be honest, it should. It should affect everything drop related period.

2) Increase our usefulness aside just TH. We honestly should be able to do decent/good damage overall and not have to be second banana to every other DD job. We are a damage dealing job. Not a gimmick/TH only job.

3) Make our tools useful to the situation across the board, not just low level content. We have so many abilities and traits that are completely useless in an end game situation. Evasion for example has literally no use on end game mobs. This is one of our star traits and all the end game mobs have capped accuracy so that makes us useless to dodge. Sneak Attack and Trick Attack should be usable more often. Once every 1 minute is too long. It should be cut down to like 30-45 seconds each or so and make the merit traits increase the damage modifier. This is our big damage time. Every other melee job just needs their tp to 100% and they unleash big damage. Ours is extremely situational.

4) Base damage is too low against high level mobs in comparison to other jobs. When I can swing for 60-200 damage a hit in comparison to a monk who does 200-600 damage swing that attacks just as quickly or in some cases faster, what chance do I have to be remotely useful? 2 hander jobs I understand hit harder which makes sense but the problem is here is there is way too much tierism in the jobs.

Overall, the jobs definitely need balance. It's not just thief either. Other jobs such as Beastmaster, Blue Mage, Red Mage (they seriously got the shaft), and some others are in the same boat as well being undesired in end game. The goal here is to make every job useful in end game situation. Everyone wants to play a game to use their favorite job and not be forced to level another job. People want options. We need those options. Balance is important. Lot of other jobs got plenty of love such as paladin, dragoon, warrior, black mage, etc. Thieves and other aforementioned jobs need the same.

[Zarchery]

Are there any jobs that haven't complained about being the "joke" job at some point in the history of the game?

[Louispv]

Are there any jobs that haven't complained about being the "joke" job at some point in the history of the game?

BRD, COR, WHM, and WAR have been pretty much at the top from day one. On the other hand THF has never been anything but a joke. Even when it was most popular it was a "Stick the THF in for 1 hit at the end for TH, then kick him again" job. Which is a mule's job now.

[FaeQueenCory]

BRD, COR, WHM, and WAR have been pretty much at the top from day one. On the other hand THF has never been anything but a joke. Even when it was most popular it was a "Stick the THF in for 1 hit at the end for TH, then kick him again" job. Which is a mule's job now.
T_T that's still more than what SMN has gotten....

But on topic:
The whole TH thing is totes spot on.... maybe if TH affected the current endgame: Delve... maybe there could be a spot for THF.

THF has the highest evasion in the game... but NIN is a better evasion tank due to blink-tanking.
THF can dual wield daggers: fastest weapons in the game.... But like Kiyara said... death by 1000 pokes isn't really doing anything when MNKs do the same speed of delay for a bajillion more damage. With the ability to have more than one 119 weapon.... maybe the DD aspects of THF can be viable. Even if only a little.


We also need to remember: it's not the fault of the players that most of the jobs have 0 place in Delve atm. (I'm hoping full 119 armors will let more people in... like how the 119 REM should have...)
It's the fault of the design of the event.
And the fact that MNK has access to the one of the easiest 119 weapons to get.
Which is also the fault of Delve... At least with the 119REMs all weapons have a 119.
VW was well designed with inclusivity... because having at least 1 of every job was a benefit. (though there was still priority to certain jobs... it didn't EXCLUDE the way Delve does.)

[Comeatmebro]

Keeping it short and sweet:

- Content with an 18 man limit that can be cleared consistantly with 9 is not exclusionary. Players are exclusionary.

- THF is fine, assuming both are perfectly geared, a THF will contribute more to the alliance than a MNK will in ceizak. The disadvantage in other zones is not severe. Players don't like THFs because many of them are not geared well, and leave a bad impression that brings the whole job down. It seems that those with the resources to get the top end gear gravitate toward the more popular jobs.

- Kiyara has some serious entitlement issues. Like, serious.

[Kiyara]

I'm just more upset at the community overall. The bigotry/ignorance of these end game groups is just unbelievable. I never did that crap when I ran my end game LS. Everyone was welcome.

[Nakts]

Indeed, I miss "All Welcome" endgame communities, now all I see are "OAT MNK VET ONRY".
And I had the same feeling when I played around with my THF, it kind of sucks to feel so useless on what should be an awesome job.

[FaeQueenCory]

- Content with an 18 man limit that can be cleared consistantly with 9 is not exclusionary. Players are exclusionary.

9_9
Yes because VW totes excluded the vast majority of jobs because they didn't contribute to the challenge at hand.
Oh wait. No. That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of VW where having 1 of everything increased procing chances.

Yes. Exclusion is on the players.
But the fact that the content is set up to encourage this is also undeniable.
(VW was set up to be anti-exclusionary... by having something for every job to do. Delve does not do this, and by not doing this enables exclusionary practices.)

[Glamdring]

- Content with an 18 man limit that can be cleared consistantly with 9 is not exclusionary. Players are exclusionary.



en vino veritas

[Draylo]

Wow how didn't they ban that signature? lol

[Damane]

BRD, COR, WHM, and WAR have been pretty much at the top from day one. On the other hand THF has never been anything but a joke. Even when it was most popular it was a "Stick the THF in for 1 hit at the end for TH, then kick him again" job. Which is a mule's job now.

i would like to disagree and say that, RDM was on the top until WHM got buffed, whm was only in for alliance fights or for somethign that required stona, otherwise it was allways RDM. WAR was never really on the top, ecxept after the RNG nerf, and even then it was for 1 year Samurai heaven (ZOMG dont feed the mob TP!!! just use meditate). COR was on the top after they buffed the potency of rolls. As for BRD thats correct.

people need to get of the stigma that only leet jobs can do endgame. Talk to the people that refuse thf, the job itself is fine. Its not a developer problem its a playerbase problem (hello mnk-heaven we have now...)

[Ophannus]

They need to make THF an assassin job and not just a support treasure hunter job with enmity gimmicks. All the little steps and sambas that DNC had should have been JAs for THF tbh, would have fit THF to be able to gice up TP to enfeeble the mob while building up for stronger WS or other kinds of technical things. But alas, SATA need even shorter recasts in this day and age, like 30 seconds. A stance that ups the THF's attack and crit% when behind the mob but lowers evasion and their own critical evasion, kind of like Innin or something. Gives THFs more of a reason to stay out of sight and to encourage them to be behind the mob. Against NMs which are immune to steal/despoil, allows THF to steal temp items from them. Dusty Potions, Catholicon, Stalwart's Tonic etc..

[Ophannus]

Also I like to add the thing is SE tries to incorporate THF and other types of melees by making mobs resistant to other forms of damage so you need a mix of slashing/blunt/piercing/magic/ranged. Many NMs in fracture have some gimmicky thing where their damage resistance changes which fosters fair play amongst all jobs.

Matamata shifts physical and magical, so we nuke it down to 6 TP moves then zerg it.
SE probably intended your group to fight it straight up and just balance both types of damage.

Chapuli has high eva when you WS, SE probably intended this to be killed with Blue Magic(takes a crapload of damage to Blue Magic) and Rangers, good physical DDs that don't rely on WS much.

Krakatoa/Craklaw/Mastop etc similar

Even the Delve bosses shift weaknesses from Piercing/Blunt/Magical/Slashing/Ranged at various 25% stages(most of these go overlooked except Tojil's but the Shark has dmg phases too). The thing is ppl don't care about damage resistances when you have MNK which has incredible attack power, solid weapon skills, can bolster everyone's survivability, has the most HP which is ideal to prevent being one-hit-KO'd by obscenely strong AoEs that basically need to be stunned locked or you get hit for 2.5-3k and can counter/guard/self heal etc and to top it off can bypass any kind of weakness with Formless Strikes. Why bring a THF for piercing when a MNK can bypass it all? Hell even DRK has Twilight Scythe. Might as well give THF, DRG and WAR a way to bypass special defense too(actually SE's first idea for WAR SP2 was a 30 second formless strikes without the dmg reduction lthat could proc on WS too) but knowing SE, they'll probably give WAR that as a lvl 72 JA with a 3min recast next month.


The problem is, why find a DRG, THF, SAM, RNG, BLM when you can get a BLU with Requiescat, Mura SAM and 4 Oatixur MNKs with Formless which bypass all those defenses/weaknesses with non-elemental damage?

[Karbuncle]

- Kiyara has some serious entitlement issues. Like, serious.

While I agree THF has some potential, the use of the term "Entitlement/Entitled" hits the wrong buttons. We're basically in an era where people refuse to believe we, as a people or consumer, should get anything more than what they give us, and if someone has the audacity to ask for more, the companies don't even have to silence them or make some BS PR response anymore, idiot sheep just come in and shoot them down by calling them entitled, burrying any hope we have as a consumer of ever getting the service, respect, and assurance our feedback is valued that we deserve.

... Sorry... I'm a little touchy on this subject you see, not THF in general but the fact this generation of gamers is so content with being fed the scraps of anything good while they sell you DLC left and right, and anyone who speaks out against such blatant bullcrap is labeled as "entitled?... letting greedy companies like EA and such get away with what is basically robbery.

*not that this applies to square enix* (PS nothing against you :D)


T_T that's still more than what SMN has gotten....

Not true. SMN was my first job to 75, back around CoP... I was invited and wanted to many of the BCNM for CoP (Astral Flow and what not), I had a spot in many Jailers for my ranged hateless damage, was used a lot during Kirin fights for Nether Blast back when that was actually a thing... Even up to ToAU I got in Odin fights for my hateless damage, and once we got Alexander our uses grew a lot more.

While we were far from the star of the party, SMN has had a useful spot in endgame pretty much entirely... though we did fade into crapness around the raise of level cap... But we did use to have our day way back when :0

(ANYWHO)

On topic, back when this forum was first opened I, and many others, made a few threads on how to improve THF, needless to say like a true modern era company, none of the suggestions, while I'm sure properly delivered by our community team, were ever implemented. (except in some small scale with Bully, which allows SA to work from any direction)... So my feelings on THF are well known, I love the job, its my favorite tied with SMN, but the job is very lackluster, and regardless of how poor the job is or isn't, the community sees it as crap, and educating any mass group of people who are complacent and accepting of their ignorance is an impossible task, so I gave up.

Goodluck Kiy, i know ranting makes you feel better, but It'll be a cold day in hell before any job suggestions are implemented :|

[Economizer]

BRD, COR, WHM, and WAR have been pretty much at the top from day one. On the other hand THF has never been anything but a joke. Even when it was most popular it was a "Stick the THF in for 1 hit at the end for TH, then kick him again" job. Which is a mule's job now.

WHM hasn't always been on top, and its position has been hardly secure post the cure changes a while back.

And mules job? White Mage is stuck so hard in the mule's spot that you'll often see WHM/THF over THF, and the term "solo" often means "with my White Mage mule".


i would like to disagree and say that, RDM was on the top until WHM got buffed, whm was only in for alliance fights or for somethign that required stona, otherwise it was allways RDM.

The time of the pink birds and the pink mages... those were dark times indeed.

To address the OP, you'd probably prefer longer timers and better damage on Sneak Attack and Trick Attack instead so you don't eat it on white damage.

[Louispv]

i would like to disagree and say that, RDM was on the top until WHM got buffed, whm was only in for alliance fights or for somethign that required stona, otherwise it was allways RDM. WAR was never really on the top, ecxept after the RNG nerf, and even then it was for 1 year Samurai heaven (ZOMG dont feed the mob TP!!! just use meditate). COR was on the top after they buffed the potency of rolls. As for BRD thats correct.
RDM was never the top healer. You needed Curagas and Cure V for anything hard. Even in merit parties, the RDM had to be constantly casting and managing mp to stretch their mp over convert's recast, while the WHM could stick regen on the puller, regen on the DD who sucked at reapplying shadows, and then take a knee because healing's covered until that wears. Then SCH dropped RDM from second best healer to third, and after that WHM/SCH dropped it from 3rd best healer to solo job. Increasing level and enemy damage output, without increasing RDM healing ability basically took them from a healer to "Odd gear that BLU is wearing." Good thing Enfeebling's back, or RDM would be right here next to the THF's.

WAR's always been on top. At the beginning it was the only tank job. Then it was the only acceptable DD because of rampage-spam. Then it was the only acceptable DD because it had everything /WAR gives and everything /NIN gives at once, while every other DD had one or the other because it had all of /WAR and all of /SAM at once, when everyone else had one or the other. Then every single event needed one for 2/3 of the abyssea procs. Then every single group needed them for 1/2 of the voidwatch procs. Even after that, with every DD tanking and DDing at once, the WAR can DD as well as the other DD's, and has retaliation/provoke to make it a slightly better tank, too! Only in the cases of obviously broken, soon fixed problems was it not #1, and it was always the clear #2 then anyway. (shoot and stab RNG's and OatMNKs)

And COR, really? In a game that requires several buffers to do anything well, that has never had even half enough of them, no one has ever turned down a COR. I have shown up in a subligar and a gun, and nothing else, and I haven't been kicked or asked to change. And the COR buffs didn't need to be buffed until increased skill from increased level made BRD songs stronger, while COR's static numbers fell behind. Prior to that COR's buffs were stronger than BRD's, and you ended up disbanding a party if you didn't get at least one of each.

But the point was, every job got a day in the sun, or have never left the sun, except THF. Even freaking DNC got to be useful in merit parties for Haste samba, and that's basically a better replacement THF.

[mattkoko]

I'm just more upset at the community overall. The bigotry/ignorance of these end game groups is just unbelievable. I never did that crap when I ran my end game LS. Everyone was welcome.

I very much agree with this point. However, I am going to look at the other side of the coin and say that SE created that mentality when abyssea came out and new players were able to leech every job to 99. During all of the abyssea launches, it was not uncommon to see people level capped with no subjob. I am not trying to give the elitists and excuse for only looking for certain jobs. Some of them have always been like that. But there has been a dramatic increase in the mentality since abyssea came out. It is alright to be a casual player, but there is a difference between casual, and having no clue of the mechanics of the game. And now we have an entirely new breed of players who THINK they are elite. They think the best way is the only way. Now, I understand that there has always been people like this, but now it is even more so. Back in the old days, even before level sync, you were almost forced to be flexible, unless you wanted to wait around for the perfect set up for hours (sometimes days). Now we have new Elitists that don't know all of the mechanics of the game because they never bothered to figure them out, so they only know one way of doing something. Abyssea created this. You are suppose to learn the mechanics as you level. Trial and error. Now there is never a trial until they get to endgame. And they think just because they got lucky in an endgame event, that is the only way it must be done. Then there are the real elites, that actually know the mechanics, but they are afraid of getting this new breed of noobs, so they only look for the people with the best gear, with hopes they actually know what they are doing. And even then, it is rare they find that, which pushes them to look even harder. And although I hate that mentality, I understand that mentality because no one wants to go to an event just to wipe. Especially when it is an event where only the alliance leader needs the item and did all of the work to get it. The last thing they want to do is invite people that are too lazy to even know what that item is and waste it. With all of this said, you can't compare running an endgame ls now to an endgame ls in old ffxi. The simple fact is, then, you were forced to learn the mechanics as you level. Now, all you have to do is sit around and/or hit the forbidden key macro to open chests. Which is perfect. They go to an endgame event, all they know how to do is open the reward chest. You don't even need a key for that. You just need to win the event. Good luck with that one.

[Ulth]

I'm just returning to the game, so I apologize in advance if my understanding of the game is not up to date.

I have some suggestions to balance out THF. Though I don't feel that the recast timers should just be cut. That is too easy and I feel they THF should have to do some work for it. I propose a high level job trait that will let haste affect the cool down time of job abilities like how it affects magic recast timers. Not just THF job abilities either, but the THF's sub job too. Hopefully that will make for some more interesting sub job combinations, which I think would be neat. Naturally special job abilities like two hours won't be affected. Probably the one hours too. It should also help out with my next point.

Aura steal is a pain to use. I am no stranger to trying to dispell something annoying like ice spikes and getting a cruddy bonechip. From the way I understand how the ability works, it only does an aura steal if the regular steal misses. I feel it should aura steal if the item is stolen or not. That way you can get both the item and a buff. That in combination with a shortened cooldown from the trait above should make aura steal dispelling a viable option. Also EVERY buff in the game should have some chance of being stolen. I understand that in some cases stealing the power would be crazy broken, but it should just have a very low chance of success like 0.5%. That way it would almost never happen, but every now and then you will hear a story about the time a THF stole it and briefly became a god.

Next up is despoil and mug. Every mob in the game should have a despoil list. Even if the item is just junk no one wants, it still should have one and get a debuff from having it stolen. Mug, while getting a little extra gil is nice, not many monsters actually drop gil. That's why it needs to be a little more offensive. It is called mug, so it is only fitting the mob gets bashed over the head and stunned.

I get that the problems with changing THF, especially the money gathering skills is having to worry about RMT. However just because some players want to abuse this, does not mean that good players should get the short end. One thing that can be done to make it less appealing to RMT is to make it a +96 ability so if they want to use it they have to do the level 95 limit break. Also it could be changed so mobs can only have each item and gil stolen once, though extra uses will still cause the battle effects of aura steal, despoil debuffs, and stun.

I hope these changes aren't so drastic that it would require large changes to the game code. I tried to make the changes easy to implement. However I feel they would be a great step to improving THF endgame functionality.

Oh and I also agree that treasure hunter should affect everything treasure related instead of only normal drops. Oh and if you already ninja-ed that into the game without people knowing, at least give a hint so people try to test it, or at least make the more superstitious players think it does.

[Eaglestrike]

Here are two options to fix THF:

First: Damage dealing fix.

1) Make our crit rate increase faster than other jobs via DEX and not be capped (maybe make twice as useful in dDEX calculations and make +30% crit the max bonus via DEX). Probably could/should make this a dagger trait itself, as DNC, melee brd/rdm/etc. could make some use of this as well.

2) Increase Assassin to not only make TA a critical hit, but make it so every one of our weapon skills can critical hit. Our weapon skills cannot compete with the other jobs because they get multi-hit WS's with a good mod that can crit, our best version of that is evisceration, with only 30% DEX mod to couple with our weak base DMG from daggers. If Mercy Stroke / Rudra's could crit unstacked, they could be used more regularly. If exenterator could crit it would hold up better vs victory smite / shoha / etc. even though it still would not beat them generally.

3) Give us an AOE damage reduction of sorts. Not a lot is needed, but our evasion doesn't hold up so well vs other jobs that get much higher defense and hp when it comes to the big fights.

Second option: Hate control.

1) Make Trick Attack "siphon" enmity. Make it not only produce enmity from our next strike, but "give" our enmity to someone else. We have a 1min cooldown on collaborator, all that REALLY does is give a DD some hate-free attacks, and make us the tank for a short while. If we could steal hate from a DD, then give that hate to the PLD, we would be very useful as we'd make PLD the tank again, and we'd make it so more than just monks can DD and survive.

2) Make Hide work on EVERYTHING. Including BCNM bosses. And make it 3min cooldown max, preferably 90s.

Either of these options is fine alone, both are not needed, really. Either make us competitive DD's so groups can see our value, or make us that truly useful hate control job you attempted to throw on us a good chunk of the game. I don't mind so much either way, other than this is an ABSOLUTE MUST CHANGE:

Native subtle blow. We attack as much as anyone else, even more in certain gear sets, and we still need a subjob and gear to acquire ANY subtle blow. We're thieves, subtle is kind of our thing. Seriously, SE, I don't want to get my alliance killed because I want to play my job.

[Stify]

Hello all new to the forums, But just to add my 2 cents... i think which the game evolving to a more fast pace content reducing the SA/TA timers could impact THF's DD in a very positive way.10-20 second timers would be amazing.

Even if timers can't be lowered could it be possible to increase the damage of SA and TA?

[Raydeus]

Yeah, the one thing I'd like to see is a reduction in SA/TA/Hide timers along with Hide also applying for sound instead of just sight.

Other than that I can't really say much since I've been allergic to "end game" grind crap since forever. If there's End-Game LS requirements to an activity then I have no interest whatsoever in it.
d(^^d)

[Selindrile]

One could fix Thf by upping their damage, and they should probably get something along this line, but I'd much rather see Thf as someone who can totally control enmity, I think it would be very cool if they revamped things a bit.

Imagine if Accomplice/Collaborator had lower timers, stole more enmity, and/or were revamped a bit as follows.

I use Collaborator to steal 25% of my DD's 1000 (just to have a number to work with) enmity, so I now have 250 more enmity, I get a buff to represent this (250 Enmity), I can either click this buff off, making the enmity I stole vanish into thin air, OR if I use Trick Attack while I have this buff active, I can then transfer that buff to the tank in front of me when my hit lands. Would also be spiffy if this buff, while active surpassed the enmity cap.

Hide could give 4-5 seconds of invulnerability and/or clear aggro (think ala Drg's Super Jump), and if you did something that made you lose invisibility, you'd also lose the invulnerability.

[Tennotsukai]

One could fix Thf by upping their damage, and they should probably get something along this line, but I'd much rather see Thf as someone who can totally control enmity, I think it would be very cool if they revamped things a bit.

Imagine if Accomplice/Collaborator had lower timers, stole more enmity, and/or were revamped a bit as follows.

I use Collaborator to steal 25% of my DD's 1000 (just to have a number to work with) enmity, so I now have 250 more enmity, I get a buff to represent this (250 Enmity), I can either click this buff off, making the enmity I stole vanish into thin air, OR if I use Trick Attack while I have this buff active, I can then transfer that buff to the tank in front of me when my hit lands. Would also be spiffy if this buff, while active surpassed the enmity cap.

Hide could give 4-5 seconds of invulnerability and/or clear aggro (think ala Drg's Super Jump), and if you did something that made you lose invisibility, you'd also lose the invulnerability.

Gotta agree with this. I prefer more hate control in most end game like AA.

[Stify]

I'd certainly like to keep this topic fresh and busy so that we can bring some awareness to the topic because quite frankly I would hate to work on a Vajra just to be told that "THF is for TH only" and never get to play the job in anything other can salvage II and Dyna... at this point im begging that we work togehter to bring the awareness that's the main reason I got off the unofficial sites and came directly to the one that can make a differance.

[Camate]

Greetings,

We had a word with the lead developer for jobs and received some information to share.

While this is still in the idea phase and there is no guarantee for actual implementation, one idea for thief adjustment is to enhance their role as a job that controls the flow of enmity. The team is thinking in terms of lowering the recast timer for Collaborator and adding a way to transfer the hate stolen from both Collaborator and Accomplice.

The lead also mentioned that since a reduction of the recast timers for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack would also boost thief’s attack capability in addition to their control over enmity, they would have to look into this very carefully.

Again, please understand that this is all still in the idea phase and the team cannot make any promises at this time. If we receive any further information we’ll be sure to share. :)

[Karbuncle]

Awesome Camate, here's some ideas I posted some years ago on this Forum thats been lost to the passage of time, i recently re-stated them after hearing them again from someone here on the forums!



I have a thread dedicated to the idea of THF becoming a master of Enmity control, the jist of my ideas are something like.

Separating Collaborator/Accomplice timers. Reducing Accomplice to 3 minutes, and adding new abilities to fit the theme.

Blame - 1 minute timer
Puts 25% of your current enmity onto a target.

Frame - 3 Minute timer
Puts 50% of your current enmity onto a target.

Plead = 3 minute timer
remove 25% of your enmity.

Innocent - 5 minute timer
Dumps 99% of your enmity into nothingnes.

(All named in theme with the Collaborate/accomplice style of naming). This gives THF multiple options of enmity control. Take 50% of the WHMs enmity, dump it onto the PLD. Or take 25% of a DDs enmity and dump it into nothigness, so on, and so forth. This will give enmity control a real value, and THF would likely find its way welcomed into some of the "If you get hate as a DD, you die" fights, like Ark Angels. Well, at least good geared Thieves.

I think at least 1 "Give Enmity" and "Shed Enmity" Ability should be given to THF.


Obvious I don't believe they will give us this kind of mastery as I'll even admit to it being a tad on the powerful side, but the ideas are there, and I'm glad, even if my ideas all that time ago wasn't the catalyst for their decision in this matter, that they're going down this path.

A boost to Enmity flow and Damage is a step in the right direction :D

[Ataraxia]

Wow this is great news for Thief and I like this a lot. reduction on recast timer for sneak attack and trick attack is awesome :). It would be nice if a thief that have enmity stolen from player using collaborator and accomplice be transfer using a Trick Attack + Weapon Skill on pld. I have been thief for a long time and I have use Thief on Ark angel fight and thief job are good for their TH. However, I find myself having enmity even after i Trick Attack + Weapon skill. I'm not sure if that's a bug or Trick Attack + Ws doesn't give much enmity at all.

There was a post earlier but i can't find it anymore on people that want a new TH knife? Anyways instead of making a new TH knife i would like TH to be cap by using gear on TH8. I know Camate mention that on post. TH should be cap at TH8 this can be done if Relic 119 gloves offer + TH 3 Or Empyrean feet + 2 soon to be 119 have +2 TH that way there be no need for a TH knife anymore. Instead of making a new TH knife it be nice to see a Asteria, Coruscanti, Twilight Knife item level 119 and even better if Ranger can equip these Dagger since Jishnu's Radiance are DEX mod and If not possible maybe they should add new axe that have DEX in them because most of the time there is only AGI Axe for Ranger. These afterglow weapons are very cool and I hope something cool is being done to them in the future update.

This might be off topic but Camate Dnc are job hit very fast and they are very good support for tank but dnc will get alot of enmity that will come from Curing and Melee. I was thinking about if you make a Ja for Dnc that remove enmity for Dnc or Give that Enmity to a pld. I thought Karbuncle have a very interesting Post on Thief. If for some reason Dnc can't deal with getting Enmity than a Thief and Dnc have to stick together for every event :).

[SpankWustler]

While this is still in the idea phase and there is no guarantee for actual implementation, one idea for thief adjustment is to enhance their role as a job that controls the flow of enmity. The team is thinking in terms of lowering the recast timer for Collaborator and adding a way to transfer the hate stolen from both Collaborator and Accomplice.

The lead also mentioned that since a reduction of the recast timers for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack would also boost thief’s attack capability in addition to their control over enmity, they would have to look into this very carefully.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VJ-53EB_6Ys/TyzfS_brTtI/AAAAAAAADcI/nds8TpQ0zs8/s1600/82236892.gif

[Calatilla]

If you still consider enmity part of a THF's main party role why did you give the ability to strip an entire partie`s hate and plant it onto 1 person to SCH and not THF? I understand SCH is supposed to be a tactical mage but it only has 2 spells that have anything to do with enmity, compared to what a THF has.

[Zirael]

Greetings,

We had a word with the lead developer for jobs and received some information to share.

While this is still in the idea phase and there is no guarantee for actual implementation, one idea for thief adjustment is to enhance their role as a job that controls the flow of enmity. The team is thinking in terms of lowering the recast timer for Collaborator and adding a way to transfer the hate stolen from both Collaborator and Accomplice.

The lead also mentioned that since a reduction of the recast timers for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack would also boost thief’s attack capability in addition to their control over enmity, they would have to look into this very carefully.

Again, please understand that this is all still in the idea phase and the team cannot make any promises at this time. If we receive any further information we’ll be sure to share. :)
How does that help if the enmity system is broken in general? Tanks lose hate 20 seconds into battle or you just stack rangers.
Annihilator (and to lesser extent Yoichinoyumi) exist. Pet jobs hateless damage. Scholar's SP ability. Wildfire. List goes on.
Pointless.
At least we're not Red Mages.

[Kari]

Thief needs more than just enmity control, which is almost useless btw.

[Selindrile]

Or better enmity control, as I and some others have proposed.

[Blah]

Not that enmity control isn't good but I hope that isn't the only thing they have planned for thief.

[Alexandero]

Blah is right, No one is going to shout for a THF because solely on Enmity Control.

[Karbuncle]

They also mention reducing SA/TA Recast timers, and frankly that would be a nice boost to THF. Even if it was to 50 or 45 seconds, it'd still add a good margin to their DPS.

Lets be honest, THF isn't MNK, but a good THF is still a good DD, if they could managed making THF more offensive through SATA Recasts and give them the ability to plant hate firmly on the tank often enough, It could find its way into event that focus around "Low enmity" generation. People say Annihilator and Yoichi exist, but those are only useful because of their hate mitigation. If THF could control enmity in any meaningful way, You could invite a MNK or WAR instead, do more damage, and not have to really worry about Enmity cause the THF could control it.

Your thoughts are too narrowed, people only use the RNG method cause of the same enmity control, If THF could do this job, other DD could make their way into the party and RNGs would be replaced with a THF/DD set up instead. The Thief however, would need to not be sh*t tier, and of course have balling gear same as any DD, it would not be a half-assed job.

[Blah]

They also mention reducing SA/TA Recast timers, and frankly that would be a nice boost to THF. Even if it was to 50 or 45 seconds, it'd still add a good margin to their DPS.

Lets be honest, THF isn't MNK, but a good THF is still a good DD, if they could managed making THF more offensive through SATA Recasts and give them the ability to plant hate firmly on the tank often enough, It could find its way into event that focus around "Low enmity" generation. People say Annihilator and Yoichi exist, but those are only useful because of their hate mitigation. If THF could control enmity in any meaningful way, You could invite a MNK or WAR instead, do more damage, and not have to really worry about Enmity cause the THF could control it.

Your thoughts are too narrowed, people only use the RNG method cause of the same enmity control, If THF could do this job, other DD could make their way into the party and RNGs would be replaced with a THF/DD set up instead. The Thief however, would need to not be sh*t tier, and of course have balling gear same as any DD, it would not be a half-assed job.

I'm not narrow-minded I just think that JUST enmity control is too, ah narrow-minded. Plenty of people have suggested lots of good things (stances come to mind, so does my ideas) and all they come in to say is they're looking at enmity control for the future of thief. Not that that is for sure the direction they're taking but...lot of good ideas are going to fall to the wayside if they do that and only that.

[Karbuncle]

I'm not narrow-minded I just think that JUST enmity control is too, ah narrow-minded. Plenty of people have suggested lots of good things (stances come to mind, so does my ideas) and all they come in to say is they're looking at enmity control for the future of thief. Not that that is for sure the direction they're taking but...lot of good ideas are going to fall to the wayside if they do that and only that.

Well to put it bluntly, the game doesn't need another DD job... Not that you're suggesting a Damage buff would be better than enmity control, I'm just stating for the record it wouldn't be. Any damage boost we get would not put us on par with MNK, and in that case in the eyes of the narrow-minded community, we'd still be a dead job.

If THF is going to get anywhere its going to have to be through good solid utility. Enmity control is actually an important factor these days, again which is why RNG is even used... since its got Decoy Shot and WS like Namas and Coronoch which have very low enmity outputs.

Its clear SE is very finicky about THF, so much so they're afraid to even give the job Subtle Blow, any changes, even "initial stages" bring hope to me for the jobs future. While Enmity control is no the path I'd like THF to take in its entirety (I personally think THFs should have JAs that utilize tools like Quick Draw, like "Traps and Bombs" that damage and inflict ailments and such), its a step in the right direction for me.

The reduction of SA and TA would be nice too, hich even if its a side effect of them pushing us toward Enmity control, would be a wonderful step.

I'd like to hope for more but one does not look a gift horse in the mouth. if SE can do something useful with Enmity control and THF, it just opens up more possibilities for us to explore with the job, which in my eyes, is nothing but a good thing.

[SpankWustler]

Here's a long post I made while trying to get FFXI to work on my new Windows 8 setup. It's long and pointless and nobody should read it. Go look up a recipe for stuffed mushrooms instead and read that and you'll be happier and a better person.


Well to put it bluntly, the game doesn't need another DD job... Not that you're suggesting a Damage buff would be better than enmity control, I'm just stating for the record it wouldn't be. Any damage boost we get would not put us on par with MNK, and in that case in the eyes of the narrow-minded community, we'd still be a dead job.

If THF is going to get anywhere its going to have to be through good solid utility. Enmity control is actually an important factor these days, again which is why RNG is even used... since its got Decoy Shot and WS like Namas and Coronoch which have very low enmity outputs.

I think the game itself being so straight and narrow in many ways is a big part of why every Shouty Shamus McMacroscanchangemypantsididnotknowthat takes such a close-minded view of hitting stuff in the evil crotch. Dealing melee damage is pretty much just getting your delay down, getting your attack up, then making the right choice between one of two ideal weaponskills: the one that performs 10-20% better when your attack remains uncapped and the higher fTP option that performs better 10-20% when your attack is capped.

I would just launch straight into a weird and sad poop metaphor from here, but the recent string of adjustments to things related to or totally unaffected by delay reduction make me think the Development Bros are finally starting to grasp how killing stuff in FFXI has happened more or less from Treasures of Aht Urhgan forward.

Optimistically:

Thief is already used for some strategies where bros need to play it super-duper safe, such as fighting a single Very Hard arch-angel with two Ninjas as the melee. I could see a niche opening up for Thief if the job had far more enmity control than Ranger or Scholar at the cost of needing to be in AoE range to contribute much of anything. It would probably be something like the niches occupied by Ranger or Paladin, which aren't terrible places to be as long as there's a decent variety of content that actually gives that niche role a place and purpose.

That would also mean that Thief could play even more differently than a Monk who renounced The Divine Order of the Punching Fist to join The Enlightened Way of the Poking Knife. This seems vaguely relevant, since Monk-lite was the optimal way to play Dancer in many situations from the day Dual-Wield made Dancer useful for anything at all until the massive adjustment to Waltz recasts made Dancer valid as actual support.

Pessimistically:

Damage is done in the same clear-cut and straight-forward way across all melee jobs and enmity is pointless in some situations. Thus, it's a dark and bitter task to make a melee job that messes with enmity desirable without just tacking on a carbon-copy of Berserk or Last Resort or Impetus. It doesn't help that some bro among the Development Bros still thinks Treasure Hunter is the best thing since inflatable girlfriends in spite of more and more magical pants coming from chests and/or point-systems and/or key items and/or terrible random Wildskeeper Rieve reward pools and/or [insert other drop mechanic not affect by Treasure Hunter here] as FFXI's years roll on; and in spite of Treasure Hunter doing nothing to make Thief more fun, complex, or interesting to use in combat.

Seeing this change announced is like that sinking feeling that a friend with severe Crohn's disease will poop in the bed they've made rather than sleep in it. The only hope is that this time, the poop will be so foul and effluent that anyone witness to it will feel amusement and disgust rather than pity. Also, maybe it'll leak into the apartment below onto the stuff of that jerk who plays dub-step and witch house at all hours. I have no idea where this metaphor is going anymore.

tl;dnr version:

Stuffed mushrooms. Ugh, poke that niche! Effluent poop.

[Mikkel]

Personally, i'd like to see SA and TA share a recast timer (dont go crazy yet) and then have the recast cut in half... so you could TA-> TA or SA->SA depending on what you're doing, but in the same period of time you can SA and TA now.
Then change the merits to 'tricks recast' -1 sec/merit to effect both SA and TA and 'Enhanced Assassin' which would transfer 5% of your total enmity/merit to a total of 25% to your TA target. With this change you could actually manage hate in a party and it would give THF more flexibility.

[Karbuncle]

At first glance, I actively dislike that idea as it throws away a major damage spike we get... combined SATAWS. Which while not completely practical, has its applications.

I get what you're going for, and i like the principle of your idea... I just don't feel I'd want to give up the spike potential of SATAWS as an exchange. Though, I do see the potential in a ~25s SA or TA however... Honestly I'd say this is a tough call, In the long run I can see your idea being better for us. Hmmm, I mean it could be worth the trade off, but I doubt that kind of deep job change will make its way into THF.

And if they're looking to reduce SA/TA Timers, i'd rather bank my chances on them deciding to keep them separate and on 30 second timers lol

[Mikkel]

To expand on my idea... maybe make Assassin grant a 10% total enmity transfer to TA, then have the merits be an extra 3%/per instead... and collaborator should be reduced to a 30 second timer. Would make enmity control a much more active and viable job for THF.
Also would be cool to give THF a couple 'stances'... like-
Shadow- -15% DT when you're not the target of the mob, transfers 25% of your melee enmity to any target between you and your target, Boosts TAs enmity transfer
Antagonist- +15 enmity, crit rate bonus, critical att bonus on SA

Just ideas! Highly doubt we'll see anything like that from SE, would be quite a bit of work... besides, having TH is so super OP THF doesnt need anything else! (sarcasm)

[Blah]

Well, I'd also like to note something that they seem to keep passing up also about thief: Shouldn't they be stealing more stuff by now??? Like when we actually use the steal abilities shouldn't they be, I don't know, like either stealing 2 or even 3 times in a row or like at least stealing weapons and armor off of them more or something like that?

[Fritobandito]

Well, I'd also like to note something that they seem to keep passing up also about thief: Shouldn't they be stealing more stuff by now??? Like when we actually use the steal abilities shouldn't they be, I don't know, like either stealing 2 or even 3 times in a row or like at least stealing weapons and armor off of them more or something like that?

Agreed here. I don't know about end game, but where I am in the game right now, stealing has such a low success rate and I don't even bother with it most of the time.

[Mirage]

Thieves should be able to steal temp items with a high rate of success, even from bosses. These temps could in turn be used to increase their combat efficiency. Steal+ gear could increase the chance of higher quality temps, including temps that would affect party members as well, such as Lucid Wings. Failed Steal attempts triggers Aura Steal, failed Despoil attempts should steal temps.

[Karbuncle]

I have a supposition.

leave steal alone, allowing it to be used primarily for Aura Steal which has its purposes, and let Despoil be the ability that has a chance for temp items + Debuff.

[Mirage]

But that's exactly what I suggested...

[Blah]

So, either she didn't read yours or she interpreted mine incorrectly?

[Karbuncle]

But that's exactly what I suggested...

You know, I reread what you said like 30 times before i posted it to make sure. Yet... I see no edit tags so I must believe this.

Funny. I think its the "Failed Steal attempts trigger Aura Steal", which i interpreted, quite easily, to "If it fails to steal a temp item, Aura steal activates", and the following statement on despoil, lead me to believe you were implying both steal and despoil should have a chance to steal Temp items.. Guess I wasn't reading clearly

[Mirage]

it's ok i forgive you

[Blah]

Ok I guess I'll put it here since this is as likely where I may get an answer. Does any1 know the, ah...hmmm base value of steal? I know it isn't erm...calculated the same as treasure hunter because at least that is documented and calculable (or is it calculatable?) But as far as I see...without any steal gear...it's...zero?

[Karbuncle]

As far as i know, there have been no significant tests regarding steal rate, however I do believe it will vary based on the mob... so it'll be hard.

[Mirage]

Ok I guess I'll put it here since this is as likely where I may get an answer. Does any1 know the, ah...hmmm base value of steal? I know it isn't erm...calculated the same as treasure hunter because at least that is documented and calculable (or is it calculatable?) But as far as I see...without any steal gear...it's...zero?

It's definitely not zero when using no steal gear. If anything. it seems to be based on your thf level vs the target's level.

[Blah]

Yeah but if that's the case it shouldn't have taken Olor 30+ times to steal that Quadav stew, unless you were trying from the wrong mobs, Bronze Quadav is the one I usually successfully steal from Olor. At any rate there should be a better way to calculate it because if we go by the websites *rolls eyes* be higher than the mob, stand behind them/ lower their health a bit 1st and voila successful.

[Karbuncle]

Most if not akl speculation would be unfounded, or placebo effects at work, unfortunately.

There is simply no tests on steal, considering in all likeliness the item stolen, and the mob, and your level all could play a part in it, so even if you go out and steal from the same mob 1000 times for a solid sample, it'll likely be different and moot for any other mob, which is why no ones bothered to try and build a reasonable formula for steal rate.

It would be a near impossible task, not entirely because of a 5 minute recast, and for such little payoff, its not worth the time of effort. Best advice is to equip your steal+ gear, for whatever little effect it may have.

So more or less, no ones tested it cause no one cares. Stealing items has never been worth a squat, and it usually takes no more than a handful of attempts for quest items (Test or AF stew stuff), so just equip your steal+ gear (WhichisprobablyasplaceboasTH+) and have at it.

[Blah]

Most if not akl speculation would be unfounded, or placebo effects at work, unfortunately.

There is simply no tests on steal, considering in all likeliness the item stolen, and the mob, and your level all could play a part in it, so even if you go out and steal from the same mob 1000 times for a solid sample, it'll likely be different and moot for any other mob, which is why no ones bothered to try and build a reasonable formula for steal rate.

It would be a near impossible task, not entirely because of a 5 minute recast, and for such little payoff, its not worth the time of effort. Best advice is to equip your steal+ gear, for whatever little effect it may have.

So more or less, no ones tested it cause no one cares. Stealing items has never been worth a squat, and it usually takes no more than a handful of attempts for quest items (Test or AF stew stuff), so just equip your steal+ gear (WhichisprobablyasplaceboasTH+) and have at it.
And if it really is just that random they need to fix that too. And don't say no one cares because when they do have you stealing to complete a quest or, as I understand it for endgame stuff, stealing to gain enmity or auras, it IS important and should be calculated much more reliably.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, But, I would probably cry if a THF update came and it was on steal %.

Anywho, new Weapons/shield/etc Job specific stuff being added soon. I'm just going to sit my guess here and suspect the THF weapon will have glorious amounts of AGI, Evasion, and Probably Treasure Hunter. Cause if it was useful FFXI would collapse in itself and die. Double so if the item has TH on it.

[Karbuncle]

I hate when I'm right.

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/img/gmw/docs/641/936/apr_07.jpg

Anyone wanna guess the stats?


new Weapons/shield/etc Job specific stuff being added soon. I'm just going to sit my guess here and suspect the THF weapon will have glorious amounts of AGI, Evasion, and Probably Treasure Hunter.

Actual Translation"

"Dmg:102, Delay:200, AGI+10, Evasion+22, Dagger/Parrying Skill+242, M.Acc skill+188, Enmity-10, WSD+5%, TH+1"

I can't believe my sarcastically narcissistic "Worst case scenario" spitball of this new "mythic equivalent" (their words on the page i got the picture from) weapon was 100% spot on. I literally just sh*t out the worst possible combination of stats i could think of off the top of my head, and I was dead on. Its literally as useless as they could possibly make it, less we forget WSD+ has never worked in the offhand outside of Magian weapons, so the stat may as well not exist.

I'd like to say more, but nothing really needs to be said. I want to look at the positives, but I'm blinded by the utter disappointment of 2 years of "please remove Thief's knife" and what do they do? give as another Thief knife. Absolutely heartrendingly astonishing.

[Eaglestrike]

At least the good news is that enmity-10 and WSD+5% is pretty solid.

[Karbuncle]

It is, its a redeeming quality, the WSD+5% anyway. Hopefully it'll work offhand, while not making it a solid offhand for anything but TH, it'll be a nice offhand if/when we're asked to use it.

[Mirage]

to be fair though, almost all ilv daggers have evasion on them

[Babekeke]

Yeah but if that's the case it shouldn't have taken Olor 30+ times to steal that Quadav stew, unless you were trying from the wrong mobs, Bronze Quadav is the one I usually successfully steal from Olor

I looked for Olor's post, but couldn't see it so I don't know what tactics (if any) he was employing. However, when I went to get my own quadav stew at level 40, I followed the currently acknowledged facts about steal rate that were on allakhazam at the time, which were:

Steal from behind. Steal while the enemy is casting/TPing/otherwise distracted by another player.

as memory serves, I had 1 fail from using sneak then trying to steal whist not engaged, then 2nd attempt, I picked a zicon quadav, didn't engage, but locked on from a distance. Ran up to it without sneak to agro it, it started to nuke me, so I spun around it while it was casting (now you see why I locked on without engaging) and stole the stew from behind. No steal+ gear (I was 0/3 on JEJ)

[Karbuncle]

I have an idea!

Change our 1hr "Larceny" into "Grand Larceny", steal all beneficial effects from the target, not just 1.

Seems like it makes way more sense... I mean, its a 1 hour, you'd think It'd be grand.

I was kinda half joking, but seriously, I need some Grand larceny, Larceny just don't cut it anymore, need to step up my thieving.

[Blah]

I have an idea!

Change our 1hr "Larceny" into "Grand Larceny", steal all beneficial effects from the target, not just 1.

Seems like it makes way more sense... I mean, its a 1 hour, you'd think It'd be grand.

I was kinda half joking, but seriously, I need some Grand larceny, Larceny just don't cut it anymore, need to step up my thieving.
Oh no, it's true if we be thieves we need to be GOOD thieves. STEAL IT ALL I SAY! NOT SOME, ALL!!

[Olor]

I looked for Olor's post, but couldn't see it so I don't know what tactics (if any) he was employing. However, when I went to get my own quadav stew at level 40, I followed the currently acknowledged facts about steal rate that were on allakhazam at the time, which were:

Steal from behind. Steal while the enemy is casting/TPing/otherwise distracted by another player.

as memory serves, I had 1 fail from using sneak then trying to steal whist not engaged, then 2nd attempt, I picked a zicon quadav, didn't engage, but locked on from a distance. Ran up to it without sneak to agro it, it started to nuke me, so I spun around it while it was casting (now you see why I locked on without engaging) and stole the stew from behind. No steal+ gear (I was 0/3 on JEJ)

I did from behind, did with sneak, did before engaging, after engaging, all the time... anyway just had bad luck, which is pretty much what happens some times and why it is bad to have really important quests based around something so gimmicky and prone to fail.

Anyway, one more super duper annoying thing I will need to work on at some point. ATM I need to finish COP so getting the base AF is less important than that.

[Karbuncle]

Well, new weapons come and gone, still no I.lv Crossbow or Gun for THF... I mean would it have been that hard to add THF to the gun from Skirmish IV? =.=

Oh well, that dagger looks pretty cool, nice damage... kinda crazy delay, hopefully good augments. At least my RDM will be able to use it too!

[Atomic_Skull]

See my sig.

[Bebekeke]

See my sig.

Your sig can be seen from the moon.

Please remove it at once, or learn how to crop it properly and then crop it down to a sensible size! It's not only too wide, but also about 4 times too high, with most of the space taken up with white. And is the skull actually supposed to be on top of the text so that it can't be read?

[Atomic_Skull]

And is the skull actually supposed to be on top of the text so that it can't be read?

It's not a skull. Google "trollface" and you will understand what it actually means.

[Draylo]

pls delete it, it offends me with the skull

[Bebekeke]

It's not a skull. Google "trollface" and you will understand what it actually means.

OK, don't remove it. I found that adding you to my ignore list removes the unsightly thing from my screen :)

I have a feeling that I won't be the only one

[Zarchery]

OK, don't remove it. I found that adding you to my ignore list removes the unsightly thing from my screen :)

I have a feeling that I won't be the only one

Well Adblock plus takes care of it too but I'm thinking of ignore listing just on principle. Maybe we should report to the mods.

[zataz]

guess ill say this. while thf may need adjusting as someone who makes groups there are jobs i like and jobs i don't. i don't care if your the best geared person on the server. if i don't like your job your not coming period. don't like it put a group together yourself. for me puppet i hate it. to me its a joke. ill NEVER invite a puppet . its not personal. i just don't feel i am obligated to bring something i don't want as i am doing the work of putting it together. don't like it fine u put it together.

[Atomic_Skull]

Anyone else's LS insist that they equip Sandung/Thief's Knife for events?

[Ulth]

Anyone else's LS insist that they equip Sandung/Thief's Knife for events?

You don't need those if you have the chaac belt. Which is sort of annoying since thf isn't really a job that gets invited to delve. Maybe when Empyrean gets reforged they will put one more TH on the feet and there will be no need.

[Malithar]

Just as a side note as it may not be known, in SoA areas with Ionis on Thf only needs +3 TH to cap. Ionis gives +2 TH.

[Stify]

Yeah, the one thing I'd like to see is a reduction in SA/TA/Hide timers along with Hide also applying for sound instead of just sight.

Other than that I can't really say much since I've been allergic to "end game" grind crap since forever. If there's End-Game LS requirements to an activity then I have no interest whatsoever in it.
d(^^d)

Or just make SA/TA a stance so that either of the 2 is up full time.

[Malichi]

TH gear: lock the Initial TH value at whatever Thf can lay down with no gear as it works today (TH 3 or 4?). Make al the TH+ gear increase proc percentage on critical hit instead of increasing initial value (or raising said value after you remember to put it on) and have it stack with the proc increase Thf gets on job points. For example Thf starts fight first proc is th4, Thf with no JP can naturally raise TH on any crit hit initially 5% of the time and equipped with Max TH (Sandung Chaac Belt Plunderers Armlets +1 etc. have up to 10% additional proc rate on crit hit to raise the TH value over time. Job point additions would be I addition to this. Caps on maximum TH value applied should probably stay the same. There is a trade off idea though too, as I'll mention later.

In things that drop boxes having TH to slightly increase the chances of personal drops would make them a coveted addition to any of that content.

Damage/ survivability and utility.: the trade off I mentioned before, give Thf a stance where they trade off crit hits for very high evasion boost to both physical and magical attacks. Kills auto attack damage but the option should remain to Thf to prioritize dodging instead of hitting harder. This would allow them to still contribute to damage and setting up SCs and enmity control while not becoming overly taxing on healers. And would allow Thf to do more that lay on TH and run away.

Also Thf needs a blunt weaponskill on dagger that has decent damage to things that are vulnerable to it and a chance to stun. Real thiefs made efficient use of Black Jacks a short blunt instrument used by larcenists to subdue a mark instead of killing him or her. But there's nothing saying any Thf in Vanadiel wouldn't use the hilt of their dagger to black jack an opponent.

All told I think these changes would keep Thf in the fight for end game and strike a balance with utility and survivability, as well as allowing the TH to build up much faster when it matters.

[Zeldar]

Why is this thread still alive? THF is one of the top DDs in the game now. The only fix it needs is the same fix that every other close range DD needs: the ability to survive close range. That arguement belongs on a general thread about all DDs, not on a THF thread.

[Catmato]

TH gear: lock the Initial TH value at whatever Thf can lay down with no gear as it works today (TH 3 or 4?). Make al the TH+ gear increase proc percentage on critical hit instead of increasing initial value (or raising said value after you remember to put it on) and have it stack with the proc increase Thf gets on job points. For example Thf starts fight first proc is th4, Thf with no JP can naturally raise TH on any crit hit initially 5% of the time and equipped with Max TH (Sandung Chaac Belt Plunderers Armlets +1 etc. have up to 10% additional proc rate on crit hit to raise the TH value over time. Job point additions would be I addition to this. Caps on maximum TH value applied should probably stay the same. There is a trade off idea though too, as I'll mention later.


I could be misunderstanding, but why would you want TH to start at trait-only level instead of starting at trait+gear level?


Why is this thread still alive? THF is one of the top DDs in the game now. The only fix it needs is the same fix that every other close range DD needs: the ability to survive close range. That arguement belongs on a general thread about all DDs, not on a THF thread.

It wasn't, it's a year and a half necro.

[Malichi]

I could be misunderstanding, but why would you want TH to start at trait-only level instead of starting at trait+gear level?

Lately I have heard a lot of complaints about TH not activating fast enough or at all I know it's there even if you don't see it proc. These days though when you have teams killing NMs super fast because they may have to just to tsurvive the encounter I would hope a system like the one I presented would allow TH to proc at a much higher rate. When you have 4 Bard songs geo haste and and Haste 2 available to support your thief you should be able to get something out of all that planning. The way is set up now I have seen a Thf go in and no one has any idea if TH landed or not before the mob is dead. Oh and trait would be for initial value gear would be for chance to upgrade from proc. Conceivably a master Thf would be able to proc at 23 (JP) +5 (native) + 10% (gear) for 38% chance of upgrading TH value on any given crit swing. I proposed a lower initial value to strike a balance for higher gains in the end. Especially since I was also pitching an option of survivability where the THF would have to basically turn their crit rate off to dodge instead.

[Zeldar]

Well, if the THF goes in and hits the mob, TH landed. IDK who you are playing with, but this is pretty common knowledge.

[Malichi]

As I said, I'm aware TH is there even if it doesn't show in the log. At any rate I was really suggesting some functionality changes to THF to stop them from having to only have to run in, stick it with TH, and run out. Some people who play THF, myself included ,I feel, would like to have options when it comes to fighting hard hitting AOE spamming mobs, especially ones where TH isn't even necessary.

So after TH is almost capped or if it isn't necessary at all, say In a Unity fight, wouldn't you like to be able to keep fighting instead of taking a dirt nap and therefore becoming a liability to the MP pool. I don't know of a lot of DT- gear that wouldn't cause you to take a serious hit to the DPS... except maybe the new Ambuscade set. Hmmm more testing is required.

At any rate, it's an idea, and only silent ideas are never considered.

[YosemiteYogorockBlondelle]

As I said, I'm aware TH is there even if it doesn't show in the log. At any rate, I was really suggesting some functionality changes to THF to stop them from having to only have to run in, stick it with TH, and run out. Some people who play THF, myself included ,I feel, would like to have options when it comes to fighting hard hitting AOE spamming mobs, especially ones where TH isn't even necessary.

So after TH is almost capped or if it isn't necessary at all, say In a Unity fight, wouldn't you like to be able to keep fighting instead of taking a dirt nap and therefore becoming a liability to the MP pool. I don't know of a lot of DT- gear that wouldn't cause you to take a serious hit to the DPS... except maybe the new Ambuscade set. Hmmm, more testing is required.

At any rate, it's an idea, and only silent ideas are never considered.

Well I've only read briefly and only maybe 2 articles of you may have written but mainly you would want some type of fast confirmation TH has done its ability to do the processes or Also has even processed enhancing the treasure pool either by a text chat conformation or a title name above its head or even a symbol like staggering does that confirms it, Hmmm.... maybe all three even to have a fully positively got the idea of seeing you've got the confirmation by no way to miss seeing it in this method/way? I do play mainly thf on my 2nd char. Yogorock who I did want becoming the main char. through the years before quitting but was never going to happen as I see it now with quitting by the end of subscription or by when I've completed all storylines of all the add-on's + expansion packs that I have bought + paid for throughout the years. Anyway's, Sorry, getting off topic here.

~Yeah, I'm curious to what other objectives that could be added to thf to play in ffxi as well...~

{Edit}: Sorry, If you see anything grammar/Grammarly corrected, Its because I use grammerly.com/grammerly apps/Grammarly add-on's or extension's to correct or majorly help in my writings in the correct ways with a little-added decisions in my judgements of its presented corrections with its descriptions as to why its intended or needs to be fixed/changed of its pop out suggestion boxes. Just thought I would put a note to that's what it is I'm using to write better with posting something. After all in the past on here, I've been pounded for my ways I have written before...

[Zeldar]

LOL, there ARE these things to let you know TH has proc'd. There is an audible alert and a visual alert (looks like an en-light hit), both of which ARE shared with other abilities so missing them is understandable. Your chatlog should also let you know when TH hits, though I see the problem with this as well, since chat mid-battle rolls by very fast. Im not offering these as a solution, its just in response to the above post.

[Selindrile]

It's besides the point, you don't have to "proc" it in any way, simply putting your TH gear on and casting dia or throwing a boomerang is enough, even if you miss.

[Phioness]

I. Problem/Fix: Bully needs recast time reduced to 2 minutes so Sneak Attack connects more often while in battle.

Instances in which problems occur:
With monsters shifting, spawning moving , moving because enmity cap/shift, or facing one direction, but due to slow communication between server/my computer (i'm paying out the wazoo for fast speed) they are actually moving/facing another direction etc = my Sneak Attack does not connect.

II. Master Thief and Chests. If your a Master Thief why do you need to carry keys like every other Adventurer with access to a moogle? Shouldn't Master Thieves have the abilities to obtain plunder easier then lets say: a lvl 1 adventurer (a mule) with coffer keys and Silent Oils and Prism Powders. Thief's Tools/Skeleton Keys/Living Keys have become useless tools for a job that used to specialize in opening chest.

We are "Master Thieves!" a key item quested from the lets say Nanaa Mihgo once Master Thief has been obtained that lets us open all chests in all zones with no combinations , dial up/down carry stacks of Forbidden Keys etc.... Whats the point being an awesome thief if we can't live up to the title of "Master" when dealing something we are associated with: TREASURE HUNTER!

III. Also with Master Thief and TH14 gear (yes all pieces) Sneak Attack / Trick Attack / Feint all activated and meeting the conditions to land, and let us be able to proc TH14 from the get-go. This one would be awesome, and allow Thief's Treasure Hunter to Shine as it is supposed to.

[Nyarlko]

Not sure what you are asking for w/ #3. If you are asking for an immediate 100% proc that maxes out TH on the current target, well.. that's simply not going to happen based on what devs have said in the past about TH and TH gear. Devs actually want us to be fulltiming TH gear. :/

I'd be ecstatic if the TH proc system could be adjusted to actually >increase< proc rate when your current total TH was greater than the current proc, perhaps even affected by how much higher your current TH is than current proc. This would significantly increase the value of TH gear and give us a reason to aim for greater-than-TH13, which we have absolutely zero reason to right now (again based on what devs have said about how TH works.) This seems like it might be a bit of a larger project dev-wise, so I don't actually expect to ever see it happen though...

I think it would be reasonable to adjust the TH proc rate Gifts to apply to final rate rather than base rate. As is, the base proc rate is pretty miserable even when gear capped, and Gifts only make it very-slightly-less miserable. A job master THF with total TH13+ should be able to proc TH14 w/in ~3min IMO. Very little content where TH is relevant tends to survive much longer than that, which means our TH cap raising gifts almost never come into play as is. :(

[Dzspdref]

Is there still room in the Thief library of abilities to add in a job ability that when used will 100% add an increase to the effect of TH?
.
For example:
/ja "Subtle Thievery" :: Increases effect of Treasure Hunter on target by 1, not to exceed the level of Treasure Hunter trait by person inflicting the hit, which must cause damage to the target in order to apply. Recast: 15min.
.
Is something like this a possibility?

[Nyarlko]

Is there still room in the Thief library of abilities to add in a job ability that when used will 100% add an increase to the effect of TH?
.
For example:
/ja "Subtle Thievery" :: Increases effect of Treasure Hunter on target by 1, not to exceed the level of Treasure Hunter trait by person inflicting the hit, which must cause damage to the target in order to apply. Recast: 15min.
.
Is something like this a possibility?

Not likely that there's room, and don't want that anyway. It's bad. ._.;;

Adjusting proc rate upwards would be far more desirable and doable.

[Phioness]

Sneak Attack & Trick Attack Recast timers
Reduce to 40 seconds with merits reducing to 30’s makes a thief a more viable damage dealing job for engame content.

Sneak Attack & Trick Attack Proc Treasure Hunter more often
also the Mythic Vajra’s enhancements to Sneak Attack V - Trick Attack V will increase the Proc Rate of Treasure Hunter.

While “Feint” is active Sneak Attack / Trick Attack proc is greatly increased
Double its current value as the below example show’s how low it is now:

Examples of low proc rate of TH includes: 12 minutes of continuous attacking a Caturae Omen creature, only to reach TH11, utilizing multiple Max-Merit Feints, lvl 3 Vajra Aftermath for fastest attack rate possible, and SA / TA throughout battle.

Make the Vajra a `more` viable (Augments have been GREAT for damage & accuracy thank you Square Enix) endgame dagger by giving it a Treasure Hunter Bonus of Sorts, the Sneak Attack V - Trick Attack V bonuses are less viable to this Thief Specific Job Ability Dagger for damage versus the damage output of Aeonic / Empyrean Daggers.

Accomplice shortened from 5 to 2 minutes
Many thieves don’t macro/utilize this at all (making it next to worthless) due to Collaborator being on a timer of 1 minute.

Collaborator
I actually use this ability quite often and enjoy its utility with party enmity management, shorten it to 30 seconds to make thief a more viable and engaging party job.

Accomplice and Collaborator enmity can be transferred to tank via Trick Attack
When either abilities are used the enmity stolen becomes a buff that wears upon transfer/30 second timer if not used.
This is a Christmas wish ( like a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken ) but would make thief a more party-centric job in helping control enmity ( By the way KFC Original Recipe is Ambrosia in my book lol )

Mug / Despoil / Steal Shorten from 5 to 3 minutes
With the fast pace of today’s current game, and hordes of gil we make using other means, the loot/buffs/debuffs garnered from these abilities needs to be made viable for current gameplay/pace.

Adjust Gilfinder Amount by a multiple of 3 to 5
Make farming beastmen for gil more viable/enjoyable for thief

Flee Recast timer to 3 minutes
We have been running around Vanadiel for centuries (in Vanadiel time) our legs are strong as a King Behemoth’s we need to move faster more often.

[Wintur]

THF could use a lot of love, in order of most important -> least imo.

Lower SA/TA cooldowns, or buff Dagger DMG

Collaborator/Accomplice to feel like it does something? maybe one takes enmity/other gives? to possibly go with the dirge/sirvente change

Conspirator duration higher? 3min? prefer it lasts full 5, but reduced to just effect the THF(maybe 1 other player)

More Fights/Bosses where TH helps get drops

Perfect dodge to feel like it does something...not just a gimp invincible, maybe if it did something to counter mimics at least(like a hide aggro reset mechanic that works to drop aggro on a monster(s) )

Fun buffs to aura steal~ <3

[Gwydion]

THF could use a lot of love, in order of most important -> least imo.

Lower SA/TA cooldowns, or buff Dagger DMG

Collaborator/Accomplice to feel like it does something? maybe one takes enmity/other gives? to possibly go with the dirge/sirvente change

Conspirator duration higher? 3min? prefer it lasts full 5, but reduced to just effect the THF(maybe 1 other player)

More Fights/Bosses where TH helps get drops

Perfect dodge to feel like it does something...not just a gimp invincible, maybe if it did something to counter mimics at least(like a hide aggro reset mechanic that works to drop aggro on a monster(s) )

Fun buffs to aura steal~ <3

Yeah, I agree with this. Outside of Ou, Dynamis and Volte gear, almost no-ilvl content benefits from TH because their is no extra slot to drop slot that TH can proc. I don't know if TH increases drops on mobs with fixed slots (like Omen bosses with 3 fixed drop slots, I'm not sure if TH helps make omen bodies drops but I still proc TH on it anyway

[Wintur]

Yeah, I agree with this. Outside of Ou, Dynamis and Volte gear, almost no-ilvl content benefits from TH because their is no extra slot to drop slot that TH can proc. I don't know if TH increases drops on mobs with fixed slots (like Omen bosses with 3 fixed drop slots, I'm not sure if TH helps make omen bodies drops but I still proc TH on it anyway

The omen body slot is widely believed to be like Pixie earring/Defending ring where one or the other always drops, thus meaning no point to TH or if TH did somehow matter for it, would also lower chances of getting it as a result of improving the lesser desired item's chance to drop.

In the end THFs just want to be brought to content, we are tired of being told "THF does no damage or THF just feeds too much TP"

Another possible thing that could be added since the devs were willing to add majesty for PLD, a possible "smoke cloud" type ability where party members affected by it generate no/reduced enmity. This would play around the enmity control theme as well.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I'd agree to a handful of recommendations and proposals concerning THF. Below i'll propose ten things.

1} Merit Group One : Each point for Sneak Attack Recast and Trick Attack Recast invested could be changed from "Shorten recast time by 2 seconds." to "Shorten recast time by 5 seconds."
Pure and simple, this is Thief's bread and butter and how Thief elevates a job which specializes partly in traits and abilities that are not directly related to offensive prowess.

2} Merit Group Two: Feint | Incredible utility as it is, suffers from situations it can't consistently be applied with the same convenience of a RDM casting a Distract spell. I would recommend the recast timer changed to 45 seconds and the base effect duration set to 60 seconds with a new feint over-writing any active current duration.

3} Accomplice Job Ability: Recommend reduction of base recast from 5:00 mins to 1:30.

4} Collaborator Job Ability: Recommend reduction of base recast from 1:00 min to 0:30.

5} Steal: Recommend reduction of base recast from 5:00 min to 1:00. There is very little relation now between steal and ilvl 119 crafted equipment and there's no reason to have that high of a time gate placed on Aura Steal attempts.

6} Bully: FANTASTIC utility: Again as with feint suffers from situations it can't consistently be applied with the same convenience of Ninjutsu / Enfeebling magic. Again I would propose the recast timer changed to 45 seconds and the base effect duration set to 60 seconds with a new Bully over-writing any active current duration.

7} Job Trait adjustment: Recommendation; add four tiers of a Subtle Blow class III trait which exceeds and stacks with class I and class II types of Subtle Blow. Do so at LvL 5 +10 stat, LvL 30 +20 stat , LvL 60 +30 stat, LvL 90 +40 stat. These would not be accumulative.

The other route would be to create a single job trait that would double the effect and double the final cap of TP reduction AGI applies to reducing TP given to an enemy upon striking it.

8} Job Ability addition that competes with Hasso. This would need to carry the same effect duration and recast timer SAM enjoys with Hasso and be accessible at LvL 25 same as Hasso. How this Job Ability would differ; there would be no gain of +10% haste for melee attacks or +STR gain. Instead it would still give the +10 Acc, add +10% critical hit % and add +20 Store TP. This would be incompatible with Hasso & Seigan and over-write Hasso & Seigan and Hasso & Seigan would over-write this new Job Ability. Applied in same fashion to Job Ability proposal #9}

9} Job Ability addition that competes with Seigan. This would need to carry the same effect duration and recast timer SAM enjoys with Seigan and be accessible at LvL 35 same as Seigan. How this Job Ability would differ; completely unrelated to Seigan other than duration and recast timer. I propose this Job Ability would increase parameters for Magic Defense +12, Magic Evasion +75, Defense +50, Parry +150 at the penalty of -10 ACC, -5% critical hit % and increase weapon delay of auto-attacks by +60. This would be incompatible with Hasso & Seigan and over-write Hasso & Seigan and Hasso & Seigan would over-write this new Job Ability. Applied in same fashion to Job Ability proposal #8}

10} Itemization: Allow THF onto the SU5 Crossbow.
Create a Crossbow from Ambuscade rewards and allow THF/WAR/DRK/RNG utilization. The Ullr can be used as a template for the Ambuscade Crossbow.
Allow THF utilization of Abrasion Bolts.
Create Escha area mid-tier and high-tier Crossbow rewards THF can utilize.
Create LvL 99 / iLvL 119 Crossbow bolts with +60 R.Acc +60 M.Acc that have a 113 Damage and reliably will inflict status down effects of Sleep, Blindness and Attack Down.
Place Subtle Blow II stat onto iLvL THF JSE : AF +1,+2, +3 Body & Hands & Feet of +5 Subtle Blow II. This could be done to Relic iLvL THF JSE for Relic +1, +2, +3 Head & Body & Feet as well.

[Wintur]

I know that I am relatively new to these forums, but I think maybe some people are a little misguided on the direction the devs want to go. THF in XI isn't the traditional rogue in WoW type job. We need to think more on the elusive/sneaky/misdirection side of things, which seems to be the direction the devs want to take THF in.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Since original launch THF had(have) access to bolts and crossbows adequately useful for status down applications and sleep and prior to COR was the 2nd BEST marksmanship job available below RNG.

We also had(have) THESE for archery, which preferably THF would cling more to crossbows with better skill cap and weapon selections.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Kabura_Arrow
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Demon_Arrow
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Paralysis_Arrow
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Sleep_Arrow

Granted these old ammunition can proc effects on ilvl119+ enemies, it would be very beneficial to add quality ilvl 119 equipment competency.

[Wintur]

All those arrow effects would stay the same...just more damage on the arrow, what would be the point?

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

a hefty dose of +R.ACC / +M.ACC

[Wintur]

a hefty dose of +R.ACC / +M.ACC

try using malignance to shoot your bolts/arrows <.<

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Mummu / Malignance do work, it would be nice to have 1-2 slot options for placing +snapshot/+rapid shot. Mummu is less challenging to obtain, Malignance... oh boy don't get me started on that can of worms. For any players in possession of the Flamma armor set, that armor set serves well for +M.acc, too, when it corresponds to a relevent action.

The proposal for ammunition additions is just about 2% of what i would consider to be agreed upon as it pertains to the # 1} through # 10} adjustment proposals that are outlined above.

[radarbabyeater]

Here are my thoughts about changes to the Thief job. I apologize; this is a very extensive list. Commentary and opinions are welcome, of course.

Job Ability Changes:

"Perfect Dodge"

Evades all melee and ranged attacks.
This applies to any melee or ranged TP abilities used by the target.


"Steal"

25% chance to steal an item from the target.
This item cannot be an R, E or R/E item.
If used within the rear arc of the target, the base success rate is increased to 30%.
If used within the front arc of the target, the base success rate is decreased to 20%.
Any gear with "Steal" +X is a direct percent increase to successfully steal an item. This bonus is added after all other modifications to "Steal".
Against any NM, the base success rate is divided by 2, rounded down.


Example: Against Gin, you use "Steal". You are behind Gin, so the base success rate is modified from 25% to 30% and then divided by 2 since Gin is a NM. Your new base success rate is 15%. You have "Steal" +15 in bonuses from your equipment, so your new success rate is 30%. You could steal a square of Moonbow Leather since it is the only item that Gin drops that is neither R, E nor R/E.


Even if you successfully steal an item, that does not prevent the target from dropping the same item again if defeated.
You cannot steal the same item more than once from any target while it is still alive! This applies even if different players are currently playing as a Thief and are actively trying to steal an item. This applies even if you are defeated, log out or the target becomes unclaimed.
In the event that a target has had every possible item stolen from it, using "Steal" will fail to procure any more items.
Merit Point modifications to "Aura Steal" will not affect the mechanics of stealing items at all; you will still dispel and absorb effects as expected and still have a chance to steal an item from the target.


"Bully"

No changes.


"Accomplice"

Transfers 50% of the enmity of the selected party member to the Thief. The party member that is the target of "Accomplice" will be granted an Enmity -20 effect. This is to help back-line and front-line jobs focus on performing their expected role with less worry about enmity accumulation. It obviously sets you up to transfer a good amount of Enmity via "Trick Attack".
The recast time of "Accomplice" is reduced to 3 minutes.
The recast time of "Accomplice" is no longer shared with "Collaborator".
Note: The enhanced effect from all versions of the Empyrean head equipment are the same.


"Collaborator"

Transfers 25% of the enmity of the Thief to the selected party member. The party member that is the target of "Collaborator" will be granted an Enmity +20 effect. This is to help certain front-line jobs maintain their role of being the the tank within the party. It also helps other front-line jobs focus on performing their expected rolls with less worry about enmity accumulation.
The recast time of "Collaborator" is increased to 3 minutes.
The recast time of "Collaborator" is no longer shared with "Accomplice".
Note: The enhanced effect from all versions of the Empyrean head equipment are the same.


"Flee"

Increases movement speed by 75% instead of 60%.

 
"Mug"

Mugs an amount of Gil equal to the maximum amount of Gil the target could drop multiplied by 2.
Successfully mugging the target does not affect the amount of Gil dropped when it is defeated.
Any gear with "Mug" +X is a direct percent increase to multiplied amount.


Example: You have "Mug" +7 in bonuses from your equipment; thus, you would mug 2.07 times more Gil. If a target could normally drop a maximum of 25,000 Gil when defeated, you would mug 51,750 Gil from that target.


You cannot mug the same target more than once while it is still alive! This applies even if you are defeated, log out or the target becomes unclaimed. However, different players that are currently playing as a Thief can mug the target one time each.


"Despoil"

10% chance to despoil an item from the target.
This item can only be an R, E or R/E item.
You cannot despoil any item with an item class of Ultra Rare.
If used within the rear arc of the target, the base success rate is increased to 15%.
If used within the front arc of the target, the base success rate is decreased to 5%.
Any gear with "Despoil" +X is a direct percent increase to successfully despoil an item. This bonus is added before all other modifications to "Despoil".
Against any NM, the base success rate is divided by 5, rounded down.


Example: Against Gin, you use "Despoil". You are behind Gin, so the base success rate is modified from 10% to 15% and you have "Despoil" +18 in bonuses from your equipment, so your new base success rate is 33%. This amount is then divided by 5 since Gin is a NM. Your new success rate is 6%. You could despoil a Gin’s Scale, Yamarang or Dingir Ring since they are the only items that Gin drops that are R, E or R/E and are not classed as an Ultra Rare (Ashera Harness) item.


Even if you successfully despoil an item, that does not prevent the target from dropping the same item again if defeated.
You cannot despoil the same item more than once from any target while it is still alive! This applies even if different players are currently playing as a Thief and are actively trying to despoil an item. This applies even if you are defeated, log out or the target becomes unclaimed.
In the event that a target has had every possible item despoiled from it, using "Despoil" will fail to procure any more items.
"Despoil" no longer inflicts pointless enfeebling effects on the target.
Job Point modifications to "Despoil" will not affect the mechanics of despoiling items at all; you will still despoil TP as expected and still have a chance to despoil an item from the target.


"Conspirator"

Will now affect the player being attacked by the target.
Bonuses from "Conspirator" are figured at the time of activation.
If no player has enmity on the monster, no bonus will be granted at all.
If 1 player has enmity, party members who are conspirators will be granted "Subtle Blow" II +15, Accuracy +30.
If 6 players have enmity, party members who are conspirators will be granted "Subtle Blow" II +20, Accuracy +35.
If 12 players have enmity, party members who are conspirators will be granted "Subtle Blow" II +25, Accuracy +40.
If 18 players have enmity, party members who are conspirators will be granted "Subtle Blow" II +30, Accuracy +45, "Triple Attack" +5%, Haste (Job Ability) +5%.
Note: The augmented "Conspirator" effect from all versions of the Empyrean body equipment will also be granted to any party members who are conspirators instead of just the player activating the job ability. This equipment must still be worn for to receive the augmented effects.


"Hide"
This is a complete overhaul. While under the effect of "Hide" several bonuses will be granted to the player currently playing on Thief. These bonuses are not available if Thief is set to your Support Job.

General:

Activating "Hide" will cause you to become hidden (invisible) for 2 minutes.
Activating any Job Ability that is native to Thief will not cause "Hide" to be removed.
"Hide" will remain active until you sustain any damage.

Combat:

Attacking the target with standard melee attacks or Dagger Weapon Skills will not cause "Hide" to be removed.

Steal, Mug & Despoil:

While "Hide" is active, the final success rate of "Steal" is multiplied by 2, rounded down.
While "Hide" is active, the final success rate of "Despoil" is multiplied by 1.5, rounded down.
While "Hide" is active, the amount of Gil you can mug from a target is multiplied by 2.5 instead of 2, rounded down.

Sneak Attack & Trick Attack:

While "Hide" is active, the positional requirements for the "Sneak Attack" Job Ability are removed.
While "Hide" is active, a Weapon Skill Damage +10% bonus is granted to "Sneak Attack".
While "Hide" is active, the positional requirements for "Trick Attack" Job Ability and the "Assassin" Job Trait are removed. This essentially allows "Trick Attack" to function as "Sneak Attack" for the duration of "Hide", but there still must be another player in front of you to transfer enmity.
While "Hide" is active, a Weapon Skill Damage +10% bonus is granted to "Trick Attack".
Note: Any equipment that has the "Hide" +X attribute only increases the duration of "Hide".


"Sneak Attack" & "Trick Attack"

No changes.


--

Just remove "Assassin's Charge" from the game. It is literally almost useless.

--

Job Point Changes:

Steal Recast becomes "Steal" Success Rate.

Description: Increases rate to successfully steal an item from the target.
Effect/Tier: +1% per tier; a maximum of +20%.


Conspirator Effect becomes "Conspirator" Duration.

Description: Increases the duration of "Conspirator".
Effect/Tier: +1 second per tier; a maximum of +20 seconds.
Note: This bonus is granted to party members who are conspirators.


Triple Attack Effect becomes to "Triple Attack" Damage.

Description: Increases the damage dealt by "Triple Attack".
Effect/Tier: +1% damage per tier; a maximum of +20% damage.
Note: This effect is the same as Toutatis’s Cape, Assassin’s Gorget +2, Plunderer’s Poulaines +3, Hetairoi Ring, etc.

--

Group 1 Merit Changes:

Flee Recast becomes "Steal" & "Despoil" Recast.

Description: Shorten recast time of "Steal" and "Despoil".
Effect/Tier: Recast -10 seconds per tier; a maximum of -50 seconds.



"Hide" Recast remains the same.



"Sneak Attack" Recast remains the same.



"Trick Attack" Recast remains the same.



"Triple Attack" Rate remains the same.


--

Group 2 Merit Changes:


"Assassin’s Charge" becomes literally anything else. This job ability is terrible and should be removed from the game entirely.



"Feint" remains the same.



"Aura Steal" is modified as described below:



Grants a chance to dispel an effect when you use "Steal". If an effect is dispelled, that effect is then absorbed by the Thief and the remaining duration of that effect is reset to the maximum duration. The effects of "Aura Steal" cannot be resisted. "Aura Steal" will still activate even when an item has been successfully stolen from the target. "Aura Steal" will no longer dispel and absorb any effects that are currently active on the Thief! This is to promote a higher probability to dispel and absorb more powerful or unique effects instead of dispelling and absorbing derp-level effects like "Protect" or "Shell" every time "Steal" is used.



Description: Adds a chance to dispel and then absorb an effect to "Steal".
Effect/Tier: +20% per tier; a maximum of +100%.
Example: 5/5 merits would give you a 100% chance to dispel and then absorb and effect when using "Steal" and if you had any augmented version of the Relic head equipment, you would dispel and absorb two effects instead of one.
Note: The augmented effect of "Aura Steal" from all versions of the Relic head equipment remain the same.



"Ambush" is modified as described below:



"Ambush" is a middling trait that sees almost no usage at all. An ambush should be a devastating attack erupting from an unseen vector of the battlefield and sets the attacker up to deliver a coup de grace. Hopefully this modification is more appropriate.



Description: Adds a TP Bonus effect to "Sneak Attack" and "Trick Attack".
Effect/Tier: TP Bonus +100 per tier; a maximum of +500.
Note: This TP Bonus is only active when in proper position to activate the effects of "Sneak Attack" and "Trick Attack". If the the selected target is under the effect of "Bully" or the Thief is under the effect of "Hide", the positional requirements won't need to be met for this Job Trait to activate on "Sneak Attack" and "Trick Attack".
Note: The augmented effect of "Ambush" from all version of the Relic body equipment is changed to Weapon Skill Damage +1% per tier; a maximum of Weapon Skill Damage +5%. "Sneak Attack" and "Trick Attack" must be active for this effect to be active.

[Atomic_Skull]

"Sneak Attack" & "Trick Attack"

No changes.


I would suggest changing SA to work like it did before it was changed early 2003 with a slight modification. It used to be that SA would work if you were outside the monster's cone of sight. That's a bit too good so instead the SA bonus would scale based on how far out of position you were.

Also I would move the DEX and AGI bonuses from SA and TA into the weaponskill calculation rather than being calculated separately and then added together. Especially with Tauret and Evisceration using SA and TA are almost a waste of time now unless you want to TA on a tank. So instead of calculating SA as a critical melee attack with DEX adding to weapon DMG and then adding it to the WS calculation instead DEX would be added to the weapon DMG of the WS damage calculation directly.

And no that would not be OP because DNC can already do this. They actually have a better SA than an actual THF. I have seen dancers popping off 60k+ Rudra's Storms over and over in Dynamis D. The reason they can is because their abilities are calculated within the WS damage calculation unlike THF where it's a separate term that gets added together with a forced critical WS.