PVP!

[GoBs]

When are we going to Make PVP Better! It Sucks atm :(
Linkshell Vs Linkshell would be great! 18 vs 18 Do Hold Land's get point's for how long you have it. What do you guys think?

[Draylo]

I would enjoy a PVP system better than what is in place now. I think they were gonna do something like this for Aht Urghan but the plan never went through (Colosseum). I think it would have to have some type of rewards to get a majority of the players to do it though.

[Wade]

I don't really care for PvP, but that's just me. I do feel that they should make it better for the people who do like it if it sucks. Isn't Ballista PvP? I always see the NPC's announcing it and then canceling it because no one showed up :P

[rog]

Somehow i don't think enough people care about pvp for it to be worth fixing.

[Mokatu]

They could implement Nation vs Nation PvP battles at outposts to help win that area for conquest.

[GoBs]

People would Care about it if it did not suck. No one PVP's This is a MMORPG We should have a better system Were we can go out and fight other player test our skill's out Have Fun in the Game not Sit in whitegate doing nothing Or Port Jeuno now Waiting for a shout for stuff to do. Nation vs Nation PvP battles
I like that! Sandy all the way! Or linkshell Vs linkshell

[Ninian]

I personally love PvP, I really hope they consider implementing it in a better fashion~

[Anonymous]

I really don't think there's anyway to change PVP, or it would've been done by now.

Due to the way jobs are balanced (and for that matter, unbalanced,) I wouldn't hold my breath for anything.

[Liselle]

Basically, FFXI isn't a PvP game. And I like it this way

[katoplepa]

I choose XI because there is not PvP

PvP = WoW

[GoBs]

But that's were you make your party setup Does not really matter that Blu is the best PVP JoB Cuz its not 1v1 its 18 on 18 Really any job could work in PVP With alot of ppl. lets say we have a full alliance one party is 3 Bst 3 pup that party will attack's the mage's Now you have to fight off a Pet and a Bst. this is were setup's and ppl know what to do and playing there job good come's into play. We need to have Some Blm's to sleep if they have Bst's and Pup's Job's in there alliance We are not going to know what Setup they are going to use but We got to play it stay. I think a better PVP system Would make the Game alot better. player that don't like PVP don't have to play it But when you see all your Friends and Linkshell ppl Talking about How they Took on the top linkshell and won you might change your Mind about PVP Again you don't have to play it. It would be nice if it was there So we could play it if we like

[Nexdeus]

PVP is probably one of the most entertaining things to do in FFXI, to say that you don't believe there is a PVP system in place, just means you cant beat anyone in it :P
Here's to hoping Ballista Royale makes a come back!
Also, they really should do a Colosseum type of event where people can look in on matches, kinda like a gladiator event :O

Perhaps I've been watching too much Spartacus.

[Xilk]

But that's were you make your party setup Does not really matter that Blu is the best PVP JoB Cuz its not 1v1 its 18 on 18 Really any job could work in PVP With alot of ppl. lets say we have a full alliance one party is 3 Bst 3 pup that party will attack's the mage's Now you have to fight off a Pet and a Bst. this is were setup's and ppl know what to do and playing there job good come's into play. We need to have Some Blm's to sleep if they have Bst's and Pup's Job's in there alliance We are not going to know what Setup they are going to use but We got to play it stay. I think a better PVP system Would make the Game alot better.

I've never been to excited about PvP... I did brenner once, and it was alot of fun. You're description above sounds interesting. I would definitely like to try something like that.

I don't know how much you would need in rewards... you might just get titles or gil/credits to use as you like. I think that might be incentive enough for alot of players.

[Wade]

I choose XI because there is not PvP


Same here :D

[Chew]

Closest thing ive seen to real pvp in this game was the super exciting "Serket "hnm" " camps. The floor was nothing but dead bodies, literally hundreds of them. Good times, Indeed.

[Seyrenne]

Why does PvP = WoW? Is it really such a bad thing to have a way to compete with other players outside of HNM progression (which doesn't even matter anymore, these days) or the acquisition of white/blue boxes? Final Fantasy has generally been about cooperation, true enough. But that doesn't mean there can't be room for a little rivalry, either.

At any rate, I'm not expecting much. I will admit that a revamp of the PvP system would probably be a balancing nightmare, but it should still be considered. Of course, making it worthwhile to do is important as well. There just isn't enough incentive to participate in Ballista, be it a reward like a decent amount of gil or access to equipment or a more accessible way of showing battle statistics and rankings.

FFXI is still an enjoyable PvE experience, but I think expanding on PvP would be to its benefit, not detriment.

[Showmo]

Ballista is one of my favorite things to do, but unfortunately there isn't anyone else to compete against except for the same small group of friends who share the common interest.


Also, they really should do a Colosseum type of event where people can look in on matches, kinda like a gladiator event :O

I would love it if they added a Colosseum event where players could do 1 versus 1 (or 2 versus 2, 3 versus 3, etc) matches against each other. It should be something completely different from Ballista, possibly with a tournament and ranking system, followed by rewards.

It would be pretty neat as well if you could put your name on a Colosseum list to look for players to compete against in a private match (which would be exempt from Colosseum rankings and tournament). When a player responded to the request, it would let you know via PlayOnline message.

[Urteil]

FFXI boasts one of the most unique battle systems for its PvE and it translates rather well (as with all things there are some annoyances) into the realm of Player versus Player as well. There is a very large amount tactical decisions and strategies available, in addition in FFXI gear is not the end-all to supremacy which should possibly go farther to foster a fun environment, as Relic/Empyrean/Mythic weapons are FAR from being the end-all to what decides the victory.

As far as balance goes I would agree that some jobs have it tougher than others, but many people champion various jobs as the masters of PvP and really have no idea as to what they are proposing (IE RDM, BLU), interesting combinations are incredibly powerful:


Some quick examples without taking up pages of space:

WHM/SCH with an emphasis on Flash Nova and Divine nuking.

Various BRD and COR combinations which EVERYONE discards as being weak, and could not be more wrong.

Many martial jobs through the use of the scholar sub can hold a candle to various other jobs, as long as they Anticipate and gear correctly.


The selection of gear versus your enemy perhaps is one of the most (ironically) overlooked aspects of battle, perhaps gear macros have spoiled us and somehow we are able to access 70+ pieces of gear at any given time, however just like all of us pride ourselves in our capped haste sets, our weapon skill sets, fast cast/pre cast etc. this type of care concern and pride is not absent from PvP.


Gear in PvP takes a slightly different route, forcing you to amass a large selection of sets, and pick the one you wish to use with great forethought and planing.

(Honestly you can still change gear, I switch out of my Twilight Cloak all the time to throw Impact on DRK around, just be smart enough to have the person crowd controlled first.)

-Is the enemy going to silence me? Should I build wind and resistance to silence.

-Am I going to try and zerg this enemy down?

-Should I bring my opo-necklace for when I am slept I can counter with storing TP.

-Must I kite this enemy, is gravity essential - I do not want this Blue Mage anywhere near me.

There's an endless amount of these examples should suffice.


As for the sick and old arguement that if we want PvP one should go play WoW it is stupid and ignorant and simply shows a lack of mastery as to the depths and mechanics involved in FFXI-PvP.

I don't play WoW because it has far too many random variables as far as abilities go and a severe lack of customization in strategy and tactics versus oppoenents and gear choices.

I also don't play WoW because I enjoy the slower pace FFXI provides, where many battles are like a game of chess, where the decision to use Poisonga or Diaga, to open wipe shadows and set your dispel cycle.

Might lead to your doom later on and kill you, every move matters.


As far as the rumors as to "PvP sucks" or "X job is unbeatable."

I will fight you on Dark Knight which has never been known for being the most liked or the most praised job at well....anything. May haps you might beat me but I will give you a run for your money I guarantee it, and hopefully show you that everything is not as severely one sided as you may think.

I would be very willing to have a conversation with you and play with you if you happen to reside on my server.

It really is true though, everyone loves PvP you can't sit there and tell me the funnest part of Dynamis Beaucedine isn't killing charmed people. Everyone loves it, just like wanking off.

They simply hate losing, but we often confuse these to be the same thing.


TLDR;

If you are only good at PvP, you are totally worthless and you'll never be good at anything even your "passion". You're just a waste of space, who can't get the gear needed to excel in any aspect of the game.

If you're only good at PvE thats your choice and thats wonderful, but PvE people are just as, if not more competitive as 'PvP People'. So if you're going to have a huge ego, I don't understand why in the game you love and excel at, with all the gifts of the gods, and amazing gear you are not prepared.

Preparation, preparation, preparation, - be prepared and excel at everything that is my viewpoint.

And honestly it does look bad when your Excalibur Red-Mage dies to a Monk using Faith Claws, but who's fault is that, really?

If you didn't play FFXI for PvP nobody is forcing you to, and for that matter, why are you in this thread at all? Its not like the title was misleading.

I'm Urteil on Phoenix, PvP has a lot of depth just like PvE. A game should have both to be complete, and in all the games I've played and all the places I've looked, ironically and sometimes horrifically.

FFXI is the closest to this, it simply needs a tiny bit of attention.

If you think that one job is the end-all, look me up. I will prove you wrong.

[Ninian]

They could make some sort of reward-system that rewards you with PvP-oriented gear. An example would be gears that would be neat fulltime-pieces, or gear that had good stats+spikes on them, or had super resist-status effects on them... the list could go on. Also (assuming they want to make more equipment models) have the gear look fearsome~

[Draylo]

Basically, FFXI isn't a PvP game. And I like it this way

Limiting a MMO or any game just because of your views is pretty selfish. I think a lot of people enjoy PVP and SE was right to add it in some aspect. There isn't overt PVP in the sense a player can walk up to another and kill them, but its in a controlled (with story given) environment. I think they had the right idea, and I really enjoyed doing it but nobody else really had the initiative or care (perhaps due to lack of rewards). I think implementing an update to it would be nice, as it stands a lot of it is unbalanced however. BLU and RDM just destroy anything in there for the most part.

[Draylo]

They could make some sort of reward-system that rewards you with PvP-oriented gear. An example would be gears that would be neat fulltime-pieces, or gear that had good stats+spikes on them, or had super resist-status effects on them... the list could go on. Also (assuming they want to make more equipment models) have the gear look fearsome~

Also this ^

[GoBs]

FFXI boasts one of the most unique battle systems for its PvE and it translates rather well (as with all things there are some annoyances) into the realm of Player versus Player as well. There is a very large amount tactical decisions and strategies available, in addition in FFXI gear is not the end-all to supremacy which should possibly go farther to foster a fun environment, as Relic/Empyrean/Mythic weapons are FAR from being the end-all to what decides the victory.

As far as balance goes I would agree that some jobs have it tougher than others, but many people champion various jobs as the masters of PvP and really have no idea as to what they are proposing (IE RDM, BLU), interesting combinations are incredibly powerful:


Some quick examples without taking up pages of space:

WHM/SCH with an emphasis on Flash Nova and Divine nuking.

Various BRD and COR combinations which EVERYONE discards as being weak, and could not be more wrong.

Many martial jobs through the use of the scholar sub can hold a candle to various other jobs, as long as they Anticipate and gear correctly.


The selection of gear versus your enemy perhaps is one of the most (ironically) overlooked aspects of battle, perhaps gear macros have spoiled us and somehow we are able to access 70+ pieces of gear at any given time, however just like all of us pride ourselves in our capped haste sets, our weapon skill sets, fast cast/pre cast etc. this type of care concern and pride is not absent from PvP.


Gear in PvP takes a slightly different route, forcing you to amass a large selection of sets, and pick the one you wish to use with great forethought and planing.

(Honestly you can still change gear, I switch out of my Twilight Cloak all the time to throw Impact on DRK around, just be smart enough to have the person crowd controlled first.)

-Is the enemy going to silence me? Should I build wind and resistance to silence.

-Am I going to try and zerg this enemy down?

-Should I bring my opo-necklace for when I am slept I can counter with storing TP.

-Must I kite this enemy, is gravity essential - I do not want this Blue Mage anywhere near me.

There's an endless amount of these examples should suffice.


As for the sick and old arguement that if we want PvP one should go play WoW it is stupid and ignorant and simply shows a lack of mastery as to the depths and mechanics involved in FFXI-PvP.

I don't play WoW because it has far too many random variables as far as abilities go and a severe lack of customization in strategy and tactics versus oppoenents and gear choices.

I also don't play WoW because I enjoy the slower pace FFXI provides, where many battles are like a game of chess, where the decision to use Poisonga or Diaga, to open wipe shadows and set your dispel cycle.

Might lead to your doom later on and kill you, every move matters.


As far as the rumors as to "PvP sucks" or "X job is unbeatable."

I will fight you on Dark Knight which has never been known for being the most liked or the most praised job at well....anything. May haps you might beat me but I will give you a run for your money I guarantee it, and hopefully show you that everything is not as severely one sided as you may think.

I would be very willing to have a conversation with you and play with you if you happen to reside on my server.

It really is true though, everyone loves PvP you can't sit there and tell me the funnest part of Dynamis Beaucedine isn't killing charmed people. Everyone loves it, just like wanking off.

They simply hate losing, but we often confuse these to be the same thing.


TLDR;

If you are only good at PvP, you are totally worthless and you'll never be good at anything even your "passion". You're just a waste of space, who can't get the gear needed to excel in any aspect of the game.

If you're only good at PvE thats your choice and thats wonderful, but PvE people are just as, if not more competitive as 'PvP People'. So if you're going to have a huge ego, I don't understand why in the game you love and excel at, with all the gifts of the gods, and amazing gear you are not prepared.

Preparation, preparation, preparation, - be prepared and excel at everything that is my viewpoint.

And honestly it does look bad when your Excalibur Red-Mage dies to a Monk using Faith Claws, but who's fault is that, really?

If you didn't play FFXI for PvP nobody is forcing you to, and for that matter, why are you in this thread at all? Its not like the title was misleading.

I'm Urteil on Phoenix, PvP has a lot of depth just like PvE. A game should have both to be complete, and in all the games I've played and all the places I've looked, ironically and sometimes horrifically.

FFXI is the closest to this, it simply needs a tiny bit of attention.

If you think that one job is the end-all, look me up. I will prove you wrong.

I like your post Think about it I wish the JP player could see what we are talking about Im sure they would Love to take on a few of the Top U.S. player or Top Linkshell's it would be great Make leader Board's and stuff the Rank player an our linkshell's

[Liselle]

The previous post sums up all i think about PvP having everything to do with a "who pees the furthest" game

[Urteil]

I'd like to make a quick note that hours after the launch of the official forums, a Player versus Player thread was created and is currently one of the most talked about threads on the page.

The only people that anyone is fooling when they say nobody cares, is themselves.

But for some reason people who don't like it are still here, I thought you did not care - [I don't understand.]




Enjoy your blanket.

[Liselle]

Maybe to say they don't want FFXI to become a PvP oriented game ? You know, like giving their opinion.

[Urteil]

I like your post Think about it I wish the JP player could see what we are talking about Im sure they would Love to take on a few of the Top U.S. player or Top Linkshell's it would be great Make leader Board's and stuff the Rank player an our linkshell's

Though I think it would be fun for combat in general, I am not a huge fan of official rankings or systems.

That was already implemented or...something was tried (because it was awful). With the chevron system.

To me the best type of environment would be a good foundation of mechanics, ease of access, convenience, reward and with a lack of punishment (OTHER THAN MANLY HONOR) - without any type of standardized list for people to falsely compared themselves with.

We have that already, its the character ranking on FFXIAH, this is just the PvP version of that, and they are both pants on head retarded.

[Urteil]

Maybe to say they don't want FFXI to become a PvP oriented game ? You know, like giving their opinion.

Any game that is 100% PvP-Oriented is ridiculous, they tried that with Fury and it was a Sham, talk about an empty world and journey with no meaning.

I don't find comments about pissing contests or opinions about them constructive. I find them trite and childish, but perhaps someone looking for a direction to such a contest will be happy to know that you know the place to find one.

[Draylo]

Maybe to say they don't want FFXI to become a PvP oriented game ? You know, like giving their opinion.

It wouldn't become a PVP oriented game is some rewards were given to current events for it. I think if they added more game type PVP like Brenner with good rewards for that event like stated earlier, it would be successful.

[Liselle]

PvP is the place to find one

[Urteil]

Any game that is 100% PvP-Oriented is ridiculous, they tried that with Fury and it was a Sham, talk about an empty world and journey with no meaning.

I don't find comments about pissing contests or opinions about them constructive. I find them trite and childish, but perhaps someone looking for a direction to such a contest will be happy to know that you know the place to find one.


Edit: FFXI is a pissing contest oriented game, just talk to pretty much every HNMLS. I don't think the addition of PvP will change the already condescending nature of the community in general, because that would mean you'd have to change human nature itself.

If anything such a system might give people a reality check.

[Urteil]

Life is the place to find one


I think I fixed it.

[Retsujo]

As much as they have re-used areas in their expansions lately, I would love to see more Diorama-Abdhaljs areas. Maybe adding some barriers to make the arenas a bit more secluded than the whole zone for smaller matches.

[Cream_Soda]

Ballista was always just a fun something to do. Now that I find myself having acquired all of the goodies I want, I don't have many goals left for my character. I sit around in town frequently, waiting for an interesting /shout to occur.

Back when people actually used to do ballista, it was just plain fun. I didn't need a reward personally. It would be nice to see the old players come back, even if they need some intensive to do so.

[Zarabi]

I hate forced PvP, where no matter where you are you can be attacked by random people. That is disgusting and im so glad FFXI doesn't have that.

However there is a method that would please all.

Have an option to ASK an player/party/alliance to PvP against you anytime anywhere (excluding towns maybe).
Also have an option to auto-decline and not even see the invitations if you are not interested at all.

[Rhianu]

I think the reason no one really participates in FFXI's existing PvP is because it's a pain in the ass to get a match going, and there are no real worthwhile rewards for participating.

Personally, I would love to see a "Duel" option added to the interactions menu when targeting another player. And then you could just do a quick 1-vs.-1 PvP match in any zone where you could normally engage in combat. Back when my LS used to do PvP matches, we would always ignore the game's official rules and do 1-vs.-1 matches anyway.

[Draylo]

Ballista was always just a fun something to do. Now that I find myself having acquired all of the goodies I want, I don't have many goals left for my character. I sit around in town frequently, waiting for an interesting /shout to occur.

Back when people actually used to do ballista, it was just plain fun. I didn't need a reward personally. It would be nice to see the old players come back, even if they need some intensive to do so.

I would love to do it :/ hell even on something like SMN might be fun to invisible yourself and Odin people lol. Really is such a shame nobody does it anymore, I am in the same boat with almost nothing to do outside of LS events (or lack of initiative maybe).

[Emdief]

I think the reason no one really participates in FFXI's existing PvP is because it's a pain in the ass to get a match going, and there are no real worthwhile rewards for participating.

Personally, I would love to see a "Duel" option added to the interactions menu when targeting another player. And then you could just do a quick 1-vs.-1 PvP match in any zone where you could normally engage in combat. Back when my LS used to do PvP matches, we would always ignore the game's official rules and do 1-vs.-1 matches anyway.

I totally agree with this.

[Firesped]

I like your post Think about it I wish the JP player could see what we are talking about Im sure they would Love to take on a few of the Top U.S. player or Top Linkshell's it would be great Make leader Board's and stuff the Rank player an our linkshell's

They already did at Fan Fest 2006 and beat us,

[Urteil]

I hate forced PvP, where no matter where you are you can be attacked by random people. That is disgusting and im so glad FFXI doesn't have that.

However there is a method that would please all.

Have an option to ASK an player/party/alliance to PvP against you anytime anywhere (excluding towns maybe).
Also have an option to auto-decline and not even see the invitations if you are not interested at all.

A dueling option would be amaaaazing, and if you didn't want to duel just set an option to ignore duels.
Hell you could make an area where the duel command works and get rid of the joke that is Pankration.

Tbh I think if /duel was implemented everyone would be about 99% satisfied.

Forced PvP isn't really PvP its normally ten people versus a guy. Which isn't PvP thats 10PvP.

I agree it really isn't ever done well, and forced PvP totally defeats the spirit of what everyone here is talking about, I find it very sad that everyone equates PvP to 'ganking' and being an ass. So I'll flat out say that anyone proposing forced PvP in FFXI is flat out retarded.

However it would be cool if there were places you could go, zones, or an area that is completly optional to fight or get attacked or vice versa. Then I believe its a choice, it could be much like campaign you sign up for tags etc.

There could be rewards in these zones, but why shouldn't there be? You don't have to go there and do them, but if you want them you do the content, just like anything else in the game. We do the same for everything else and killing people for something in a controlled area is way more fun than camping HNM's for 5 hours ever was.


The only people that advocate FREEWORLDPVPLOL, are either ones that seriously just enjoy being douches - or perhaps its a mechanic of the game implemented at start. I personally have never had fun in world PvP but I enjoy duels and fights in arena's etc. Running up to a guy at 15% hp doesn't prove anything besides that you are a spineless weasel.

[Cream_Soda]

I would love to do it :/ hell even on something like SMN might be fun to invisible yourself and Odin people lol. Really is such a shame nobody does it anymore, I am in the same boat with almost nothing to do outside of LS events (or lack of initiative maybe).

It may work once or twice (well more on people who don't know what they're doing), but I've always been able to see Odin a mile away, lol and even if I'm slept or something, it either kills me or everyone else because when I see odin readying his move, I just /pcmd leave, so if I'm target it only hits me and if I'm not target, it avoids me, lol.

I remember one guy who used to come smn and do a full defense/pdt build w/ tav taco and would run around and geocrush people. Now that was an annoying move. Big damage, really good range (only way to outrun it is if you have sprint if he's close enough when he starts), and stun.

[Zarchery]

Hasn't Brenner, a form of PVP in which players reserve an arena and initiate combat at their will, been around since 2005?

[Tezz]

A Card Game IS PVP! See my other thread. ;p (/wishes)

[Imakun]

Thing is jobs in FFXI are created and balanced to work together, not against each other.
FFXI was never a PvP game. If you go back to Ballista or Brenner you'll easily see that some jobs simply didn't have any chance to win.
I personally wouldn't care if they revamped PvP, I'm just not interested in it :P

[Tezz]

I'm for it now. ONLY because everyone who owns everything does nothing in the game but sit in town. Give them something to do. It's kind of sad the ultimate future seems to be sitting in town doing nothing or grinding out something else.

[Dymlos]

If you want to PvP, go play the other billion MMOs out there like WoW, Rift, and Aion.

[Zarchery]

Actually, they should add PVP. They should also make the following additions:

-- Some sort of delivery system so that items and gil can be sent between characters without them being in the same place.

-- A special zone, kind of like a house, which each player can customize to his or her specifications. You can change jobs, take delivery of items, access storage. Since this is a Final Fantasy game, I think it would be cool if you centered it around the ubiquitous moogle characters

-- A mount of some sort for travel over land. Again, since this is Final Fantasy, chocobos seem like a natural choice.

-- Airships, like in Final Fantasy 9, used for moving between major cities. For simplicity, route all this through a central transit hub, such as Jeuno.

-- Some sort of central clearing place, such as an auction house, where you can buy and sell items.

-- Instanced notorious monster fights that you can fight in exchange for treasure. In order to access these, have regular monsters drop some kind of token, and with enough of these tokens, you can buy something that will let you in to the instanced fight.

That's all I have for now. If anyone else wants to kick in some suggestions for adding things to the game that already exist, feel free to jump in.

[Tyi]

Ok PvP does not equal WoW people. It will bring more exploration and things to do when playing the game.

I can definitely say for all us, I'd love a fast quick activity to do while standing around in Jeuno/Whitegate and PvP could be it.

[rog]

Thing is jobs in FFXI are created and balanced to work together, not against each other.
FFXI was never a PvP game.
Pretty much this. There is simply no way to balance pvp to be fair, without destroying the balance in pve.

The best they could really do would be to remove the equipment change limitation in ballista. Beyond that, there simply isn't much they can possibly do, without completely redesigning the game.

[Zarchery]

Ok PvP does not equal WoW people. It will bring more exploration and things to do when playing the game.

I can definitely say for all us, I'd love a fast quick activity to do while standing around in Jeuno/Whitegate and PvP could be it.

So do synthesis. Or do quests. Or farm. Why are you waiting around in town anyway? If you're looking for a party, you can put your seek flag up and go anywhere. Just warp back when you get a /tell. Or if you're standing around listening to /shouts to see if anything exciting will come up, find some out of game activity to while away the time. The only way PVP would occupy your time in this scenario would be for open brawling on the streets of Jeuno.

Or if you *must* indulge in your desire to gank other players, do Brenner.

[Tezz]

Again, also, PVP does not mean straight up fighting. Sports, mini-games, races & gambling etc...

Since it's already in the game as fighting that's likely all they'll expand on, so have at it.

[LeChuck]

As of current FFXI's job system, a working PvP is out of question. Jobs are way too unbalanced, PvP would be <insert best DD here> vs. <same job> leaving all other jobs out of it.

[Volkai]

When are we going to Make PVP Better! It Sucks atm :(
Linkshell Vs Linkshell would be great! 18 vs 18 Do Hold Land's get point's for how long you have it. What do you guys think?

The problem with PvP in FFXI is not poor implementation, but a widespread lack of interest. You could do 18 v 18 in Brenner's LS Liga if you could only find 36 players on the same server with compatible playtimes.

Good luck with finding 36 players on the same server with compatible playtimes, though. You're gonna need it!


Again, also, PVP does not mean straight up fighting. Sports, mini-games, races & gambling etc...

Since it's already in the game as fighting that's likely all they'll expand on, so have at it.

Chocobo Racing, Pankration, and Game Tables all exist already for competition between players. Not to mention that players have made competitive events on their own, like lv.1 foot races from a starting nation to jeuno in the past.

[hadeed]

Long time ago when I started this game i was busy doing PvE stuff in FF , the game is really fun with friends but sometimes the PvE stuff wont fill the urge of fighting sometimes , people want to test their abilities against other players . My major fun was when i used to play Ballista it was great fun but the requirement for the Ballista was somehow hard to meet , time , place , people and in the end the reward system ( basically there isn't ).

I used to play Ballista because its just plain fun though i agree the old days where players with certain jobs can own your other jobs but still the idea was good but SE did not continue the improve the PvP , they can do better.

like for example instead of making the country like Sandoria , Bastok taking control of some of the areas ( its funny they control it without fighting ???? how lol) make PvP open on those areas where players trying to take control of outpost. when they do that the players can get buff like exp buff or weapon buff or even job buff ! like adding more abilities that are only accessible from Ballista or PvP ( like Abyssea now , with the Atma system ). they done it PvE so why not PvP ?

for the balance now level 90 , jobs now have the freedom to built their jobs with any sub job they want , there is more free style now than ever, and if you add something like "Atma" system from Abyssea into ballista with loads of HP people will enjoy the PvP because now even mages can do some serious melee damage in Abyssea.

for the Job balance like job vs job well they can give items that can be used AND be "reused" if there is an space issue . in PvP , like WAR can get Dispelga ( just example i dont want WAR to get Dispelga ! ) .Or as job Abilities that can be used inside and outside PvP ! I think all of this is possible but if they really want to do it they will .

some rewards will be so nice like customs ?! or boots for movement speed , or even use a point system in the game from Signet . like PvP signet will give you capped haste ?!?! or double attack boost ? ( i think i am asking too much lol )

but this what i think if I am going to make a PvP game because now i playing Warhammer ONline which is only a PvP game guild vs guild and all kind of PvP is there but sometimes it nice to have both PvE and PvP in the game , it will give the game a unique taste.

thats all i want to say , hope if anyone can add some ideas it will be great ~

[Mezzopiano]

To the OP: There actually is an option for LS vs. LS Brenner. I have yet to see it used. In addition, teams in either Ballista or Brenner can actually go up to 72.

I think Brenner and Ballista could use a few adjustments. First off, please, for the love of Altana, allow us to remove Postens from Brenner. Those things wreck small matches. In addition, more people would be willing to host Diorama Abdhaljs-Ghelsba if it cost gil instead of Ballista Points. With the drought in official matches, those things are hard to come by now.

One thing I find most PvPers tend to focus on too much is the 1v1 aspect. FFXI is a team based game, and its PvP is too. Actual team matches give AoE using jobs like BRD, BLM, and SMN a chance to shine.

Also, if Ballista is the San d'Orian version of Conflict, and Brenner is the Bastokan version, what's the Windurstian version? Will we ever see it added?

[Antipika]

Problem with XI and PvP is latency which doesn't make it fair at all for EU players, less fair for NA players and easy win for JP. Servers are in Japan. Average latency with a good DSL line from EU to SE servers is 270ms (and that's with a good DSL/Cable Line, which would gives you about 10-15ms locally). Now an average line with 50ms of latency raise that up to 300ms+.

Meanwhile, average JP player will have 50ms maximum, if not less. Knowing that a Stun is 500ms base cast time (and can be even lower now), that is simply unfair, if two mages start casting a spell at the same time, JP will always have the advantage.

Remember playing Quake when you had dial-up and your opponent had DSL? Well it's the same case here. Latency gap is as wide as the gap between DSL and dial-up.

Challenging PvP based solely on "frags" and not on "objectives" like Ballista is just out of question.

For people complaining about jobs balance, things can be adjusted for PvP only, just like it is at the moment, Mage damage are reduced, AoE spells aren't AoE etc.

[Krystal]

i wouldn't mind PVP myself in FFXI..might give abit of spice back to the game. a new PVP system isn't a half bad idea...

[rog]

Problem with XI and PvP is latency which doesn't make it fair at all for EU players, less fair for NA players and easy win for JP. Servers are in Japan. Average latency with a good DSL line from EU to SE servers is 270ms (and that's with a good DSL/Cable Line, which would gives you about 10-15ms locally). Now an average line with 50ms of latency raise that up to 300ms+.

Meanwhile, average JP player will have 50ms maximum, if not less. Knowing that a Stun is 500ms base cast time (and can be even lower now), that is simply unfair, if two mages start casting a spell at the same time, JP will always have the advantage.

Remember playing Quake when you had dial-up and your opponent had DSL? Well it's the same case here. Latency gap is as wide as the gap between DSL and dial-up.

Challenging PvP based solely on "frags" and not on "objectives" like Ballista is just out of question.

For people complaining about jobs balance, things can be adjusted for PvP only, just like it is at the moment, Mage damage are reduced, AoE spells aren't AoE etc.
latency isn't really that important in ffxi. Being off by .2-.3 seconds isn't really going to matter in ffxi. Obviously for some games a 300ms latency is unplayable, but ffxi is not one of those games. Absolutely nothing ever happens in <.3 seconds.

[Cream_Soda]

I personally think they should make a server w/ only the ballista zones.

You would be able to Carbon copy your character w/ current gear/items (but no AH, gil etc since this is just a ballista zone) where people from all servers who want to play can play.

Basically take your char, put him in a lobby, get in a match.

While on individual servers, there is not a great demand for ballista, between all the servers, there will be guaranteed matches at pretty much all times between the JP and NA players.

[Sureal]

this game first off does not lend itself to PvP in combat style, secondly it doesnt fit in with the story line

and finally PvP is horrible in games that do have it, WoW made me want to pull my hair out, Everquest had to make buffer zones

PvP leads to douchebaggery

[Cream_Soda]

And this is why it's OPTIONAL.

Just because you don't enjoy Ballista doesn't mean they can't update it for those of us who do. How often are you even in the ballista zones? Chances are that if you're not directly involved, you won't even see a match, so it doesn't really affect you in any way shape or form.

[rog]

and finally PvP is horrible in games that do have it, WoW made me want to pull my hair out, Everquest had to make buffer zones

PvP leads to douchebaggery
This depends on what you're looking for in a game. If you just want to play by yourself and not have to worry about anyone, then obviously open pvp wouldn't be fun for you. However many others enjoy the constant risk of someone coming to kill them. It adds a certain thrill to the game to know any of those 10 people standing near you might decide to attack you at any time. Needing to constantly be alert, and ready to fight back with no warning. Obviously there are pros and cons, and some players will like such a setting, and others will hate it.

Obviously closed pvp is much different, since no one can just attack without warning, and those that aren't interested in pvp don't have to participate.

It's all a matter of preference. Some will love the open pvp games, some will hate them, and that's fine. In this case ffxi is not really balanced for any kind of pvp.

[Sureal]

being lvl 5 and having some lvl 80 come by and slaughter you just cause your there is dumb no matter what type of game your playing or how you want to play

[rog]

being lvl 5 and having some lvl 80 come by and slaughter you just cause your there is dumb no matter what type of game your playing or how you want to play
Of course, which is why any decent game will prevent that, by not allowing players much higher level to attack much lower level players, or disabling pvp in starting areas, etc.

[Amanie]

i loved PvP back when ppl actually did it. was fun to test your skills against others, play around with gear and sub job set ups to maximize killing or survival. using 2hr for laughs.... there is a long overdue update for ballista/brenner if you ask me.

just a few suggestions
-different game type for PvP. like free for all and/or team deathmatch,

-good gear rewards. purchased with points perhaps. worthwhile stats that may or may not be ballista only. fast cast, movement speed, - damage taken, haste.

- PvP "atma" - can start off with 1 effect via key item and purchase another 1 or 2 with points, much like lunar abbysites. with such buffs as 100% aquaveil, - 50% damage taken, regen/refresh/haste, hp/mp , status resistance, auras.no crazy stat boosts though, such things could level the playing field for jobs that have a hard time surviving, mages were often the walking dead.

-having the conflict status would change some things around. -75% damage when attacked from behind except from sneak attack like JA (everyone would run around in circles so they can attack and not be attacked). a large increase in melee/ws range??

-other rewards that arent junk, extra ballista points for winning/mvp/best job. huge xp bonuses. job seals? 1 free skill up!!

[Rezeak]

I agree PVP would be a nice if they fixed it or even added new game modes only because ballista and benner are so so.

I'd like Vanilla fights for 1v1 3v3 and maybe 6v6 then maybe have thing like winner stays on but gains a random debuff/buff and can stay in for a max of 10 battles.

Either way SE has added some PVP and tbh they should adjust it at least so it can be more fun.

I do think the rewards should be PVP only or Comedy items since like it's been said FFXI is a PVE game

[Wenceslao]

We have Ballista and Brenner, you don't wanna use it as a football camp?, just reserve teh area, and kill one-one battles, that's what i do with my friends to test my skills against them

[Icestein]

Make PvP have tangible rewards that are equal to AF3+1 or maybe slightly better. Remove the complicated mechanics found in Brenner and Ballista. Have one zone dedicated to it 24/7. Make it effortless to get there. That's the way to give PVP even a small amount of success.

[Mezzopiano]

Honestly, I am really put off by the idea of gear rewards for PvP because that just opens itself to people exploiting the system even more than they already do (Example: running circles around melee enemies). You'd have people only caring about the gear and not the competition. Depending on how it's implemented, this might even end with players just letting them wail on each other until they got the reward.

[sandman]

I suggested this back in the old day of HNM Fafnir, Nidhogg, King Behemoth, Aspid camping. Everyone was complaining about the bots, easiest way to solve the problem of bot claiming is make the zones those nms spawn in PVP zones. Now that eveyone is complaining about botting in abyssea zones it'd be just as easy to make abyssea zones pvp. Or we could add a WoE zone that was PvP, normal mobs would drop dyanmis singles, alexandrite, and empyrean +1 and +2 items, the NMs in those zones would drop high level gear or dynamis 100s, or even empyrean nm items. Also, it'd be nice if we could loot one piece of equiped gear off someone we defeated. I also like the colosseum idea where we kept track of high ranking players and linkshells.

[rog]

I suggested this back in the old day of HNM Fafnir, Nidhogg, King Behemoth, Aspid camping. Everyone was complaining about the bots, easiest way to solve the problem of bot claiming is make the zones those nms spawn in PVP zones. Now that eveyone is complaining about botting in abyssea zones it'd be just as easy to make abyssea zones pvp. Or we could add a WoE zone that was PvP, normal mobs would drop dyanmis singles, alexandrite, and empyrean +1 and +2 items, the NMs in those zones would drop high level gear or dynamis 100s, or even empyrean nm items. Also, it'd be nice if we could loot one piece of equiped gear off someone we defeated. I also like the colosseum idea where we kept track of high ranking players and linkshells.That totally wouldn't kill the game off in a month.

[Sureal]

LOL so what your saying is, you want to (at least in the botting days) to have some newb ls claim fafhogg only to have 300 people beat the hell out of them to get claim themselves, i could honestly see fafhogg never dieing, just constant pvp while fafhogg runs around like "WTF IS GOING ON, HAY GUYS IM OVER HERE" /SPIKEFLAIL

cause we all know how well that would end up working out

[Mezzopiano]

Why is open PvP even being suggested? Sure, it might help alleviate your frustration at someone outclaiming you, but it's not actually going to solve anything here. Keep PvP as it is, as a sport and completely optional.

[rog]

LOL so what your saying is, you want to (at least in the botting days) to have some newb ls claim fafhogg only to have 300 people beat the hell out of them to get claim themselves, i could honestly see fafhogg never dieing, just constant pvp while fafhogg runs around like "WTF IS GOING ON, HAY GUYS IM OVER HERE" /SPIKEFLAIL

cause we all know how well that would end up working out
Nah, it'd die eventually. Probably after about 5-10 hours each.

[Volkai]

PvP outside of events such as Ballista or Brenner is not going to happen in FFXI. FFXI is first and foremost a game about people working together to achieve common goals, not beating the stuffing out of each other. This is a core value of the game, and a key difference between it and many other MMOs such as WoW or WAR or City of Heroes/Villains or Dark Age of Camelot or Everquest or Planetside or, well, the list goes on.

PvP in FFXI is a team-building exercise. That's why Ballista is a team-based event, why Brenner came out even more team-focused instead of less team-focused, why there's LS Liga (which as far as I know nobody actually takes part in.) It's about friendly competition.

If you want to beat the stuffing out of your fellow players for the sake of beating the stuffing out of your fellow players, FFXI is probably not the game for you.

[Harukusan]

It seems to me that people who have something negative to say about Ballista have never really experienced it the way it was meant to be, like back in the day when you could find 18+ people per team in Jugner/Pashhow/Meriph. Also, those who suggest that there isn't PVP at all just don't know what they are talking about. This isn't your topic, stay out of it.

I, for one, am a total Ballista fanatic, and would love to see it's glory days again. No one job is superior to another if you're prepared to fight them. My favorite job to play in Ballista was DRK mainly, and I would tear up all the BLUs and PLDs etc. Ballista isn't only about utilizing your own knowledge and skills to its fullest capabilities, but also knowing your opponents as well as the jobs they are playing, and how they play them. It's much much more than simple beat-'em-up, especially in a 1vs1 duel. Those of you who have participated in the real Ballista and got rocked by 10 opposing players have reason to be skeptical about it, it can be annoying (I've experienced this many times). But that's also part of the learning experience you gain. The lesson learned is "Don't do whatever it is you just did to get yourself killed!"

Again, to all you nay-sayers: don't get your panties in a knot because you have no interest in a certain aspect of the game that has been around much longer than most of you began playing. If you don't want to participate, then don't. But don't talk trash about it.

The one and only thing that I would love to see changed to Ballista is the accessibility. Since no one participates in the official matches anymore, literally everyone I ever knew to do Ballista (that still plays) has run dry of Ballista points to enter the Diorama. If we have to pay to play, I'd rather just spend a little gil, or perhaps create a new purpose for the hundreds of Beastman's/Kindred's seals/crests that are collecting dust. I also like the idea of implementing more zones available for combat, as well as the idea to request a duel with someone any time.

[Mirage]

latency isn't really that important in ffxi. Being off by .2-.3 seconds isn't really going to matter in ffxi. Obviously for some games a 300ms latency is unplayable, but ffxi is not one of those games. Absolutely nothing ever happens in <.3 seconds.

I disagree. If i have a 250 ms lag from japan and see a move being readied, it has already been in progress for 250 ms on the server, add 250 ms for my reaction command to get back to the server, and we're at 500 ms already. Assuming the player has a reaction time of 150 ms (not actually sure what most people are at, 150 sounds fast for a human) a JP player will have a 750 ms window to stun this action, while an EU player will have 350 ms. This results in the jp player being much m ore likely to stun the action in time than the eu player.

This doesn't affect an enormous part of the game, but it can be pretty annoying especially with gaze attacks. I can sit with my eyes glued to the monitor, looking for a gaze attack to be prepared, turn away within 200 ms, and still get hit by the attack even if I see the attack actually being done almost a second after i (on my own screen) turned away.

[hadeed]

i loved PvP back when ppl actually did it. was fun to test your skills against others, play around with gear and sub job set ups to maximize killing or survival. using 2hr for laughs.... there is a long overdue update for ballista/brenner if you ask me.

just a few suggestions
-different game type for PvP. like free for all and/or team deathmatch,

-good gear rewards. purchased with points perhaps. worthwhile stats that may or may not be ballista only. fast cast, movement speed, - damage taken, haste.

- PvP "atma" - can start off with 1 effect via key item and purchase another 1 or 2 with points, much like lunar abbysites. with such buffs as 100% aquaveil, - 50% damage taken, regen/refresh/haste, hp/mp , status resistance, auras.no crazy stat boosts though, such things could level the playing field for jobs that have a hard time surviving, mages were often the walking dead.

-having the conflict status would change some things around. -75% damage when attacked from behind except from sneak attack like JA (everyone would run around in circles so they can attack and not be attacked). a large increase in melee/ws range??

-other rewards that arent junk, extra ballista points for winning/mvp/best job. huge xp bonuses. job seals? 1 free skill up!!

good stuff <3 !!! keep it up people

[Wenceslao]

It seems to me that people who have something negative to say about Ballista have never really experienced it the way it was meant to be, like back in the day when you could find 18+ people per team in Jugner/Pashhow/Meriph. Also, those who suggest that there isn't PVP at all just don't know what they are talking about. This isn't your topic, stay out of it.

I, for one, am a total Ballista fanatic, and would love to see it's glory days again. No one job is superior to another if you're prepared to fight them. My favorite job to play in Ballista was DRK mainly, and I would tear up all the BLUs and PLDs etc. Ballista isn't only about utilizing your own knowledge and skills to its fullest capabilities, but also knowing your opponents as well as the jobs they are playing, and how they play them. It's much much more than simple beat-'em-up, especially in a 1vs1 duel. Those of you who have participated in the real Ballista and got rocked by 10 opposing players have reason to be skeptical about it, it can be annoying (I've experienced this many times). But that's also part of the learning experience you gain. The lesson learned is "Don't do whatever it is you just did to get yourself killed!"

Again, to all you nay-sayers: don't get your panties in a knot because you have no interest in a certain aspect of the game that has been around much longer than most of you began playing. If you don't want to participate, then don't. But don't talk trash about it.

The one and only thing that I would love to see changed to Ballista is the accessibility. Since no one participates in the official matches anymore, literally everyone I ever knew to do Ballista (that still plays) has run dry of Ballista points to enter the Diorama. If we have to pay to play, I'd rather just spend a little gil, or perhaps create a new purpose for the hundreds of Beastman's/Kindred's seals/crests that are collecting dust. I also like the idea of implementing more zones available for combat, as well as the idea to request a duel with someone any time.

I would like to have ballista glory days back too, and yeah, like many old ballista players I ran out of Ballista points a time ago.

[Solsticewind]

I say leave the PVP that is in the game as is. It is the one of the main resions I'm still playing FF 11 the other is friends. I have tried other games that was PvP all I have come back from them is the same if you are new you are nothing more then a walking target for the higher lvl's to kill for there laughs so I no longer even consider buying any of the new games that have come out because of this. If you want to do the stuff that is PvP in FF 11 thats fine just find others and make a LS for it no need to add more that well not see any more use then what is all ready in the game.

[Siviard]

When are we going to Make PVP Better! It Sucks atm :(
Linkshell Vs Linkshell would be great! 18 vs 18 Do Hold Land's get point's for how long you have it. What do you guys think?

Might be safe to say GoBs is Feiwong? He's the only one that cares about Ballista. lol

[Urteil]

Problem with XI and PvP is latency which doesn't make it fair at all for EU players, less fair for NA players and easy win for JP. Servers are in Japan. Average latency with a good DSL line from EU to SE servers is 270ms (and that's with a good DSL/Cable Line, which would gives you about 10-15ms locally). Now an average line with 50ms of latency raise that up to 300ms+.

Meanwhile, average JP player will have 50ms maximum, if not less. Knowing that a Stun is 500ms base cast time (and can be even lower now), that is simply unfair, if two mages start casting a spell at the same time, JP will always have the advantage.

Remember playing Quake when you had dial-up and your opponent had DSL? Well it's the same case here. Latency gap is as wide as the gap between DSL and dial-up.

Challenging PvP based solely on "frags" and not on "objectives" like Ballista is just out of question.

For people complaining about jobs balance, things can be adjusted for PvP only, just like it is at the moment, Mage damage are reduced, AoE spells aren't AoE etc.


Completley and total false as far as the JP vs NA advantage.

However you are 100% right, its easy to balance ANYTHING, when it is restricted to a particular Zone. A shining example is Dungeon Fighter online, where nearly every ability behaves differently in PvE than it does from the PvP Channel/Arena.

[Urteil]

Might be safe to say GoBs is Feiwong? He's the only one that cares about Ballista. lol

I care about Ballista, and I'm sure not Feiwong.

[Urteil]

being lvl 5 and having some lvl 80 come by and slaughter you just cause your there is dumb no matter what type of game your playing or how you want to play

I agree with you, this is completley dumb, and a complete 180 on anything any sane or smart person would ask for.

Or what anyone is proposing, if they implemented this shit I'd quit.

[Urteil]

Honestly, I am really put off by the idea of gear rewards for PvP because that just opens itself to people exploiting the system even more than they already do (Example: running circles around melee enemies)

Go into first person view and turn with your target, it is not that hard.

If you don't want to do that, third person following is slightly harder, right on par with tying one's shoes.

[Faule]

Count me in as a supporter for PVP alterations.

I always had high hopes SE would expand the Ballista Points beyond 2,000 and let you purchase game time buffs or ballista: "only" gear. It needs something to draw the 'maybes' and the 'never done it before' back to the field, and get some experience in.

To those raining on our parade: PVP exists in FFXI, and it has for a very long time. Where was your hatred in 2006? The benefit of having a closed PVP system is that you don't have to participate in it if you don't want to. I can't understand half of the problems people are having with this discussion.

[Alhanelem]

PvP = WoW PVP != WoW. Different games have different PvP experiences, and having people play PvP does not suddenly make the game WoW.

PvP in FFXI will never be anything more than a minigame, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be any incentive to play it. Some minor rewards, such as gear that works only in Ballista or something would attract people to playing it again.

No one's asking for PvP servers or open PvP combat anywhere, but we are asking for the PvP we've already been given to have some improvements.

[Urteil]

I play the game for the whole Package.

I like the FF-World, the characters, the universe and the game.

I like the PvE, the boss-fights, the stories.

And in every FF game since FF1, people have been at war, kicking the shit out of each other.

I want the whole package, but I'm not asking for the right to kill noobs or people lower level than me.

I want to battle the hardest foes, the human mind has to offer!

[Gotterdammerung]

an intuitive PVP arena would be fun. Could even be more fun if there was some way to stake gil and items. P.s. make snarl change players target please!

[Dubberrucky]

I agree there should be improvements to PvP. My LS does ballista/brenner just for fun on occasion to test our skill but we never use the actual "game" they have built into them. Its fun to just enter a completely deserted zone and kill your friends without consequence but it could be made a lot better.
A reward system of exp or gil would be exploited to no end sadly so that's not such a great idea imo but they could at least give us more options for it.

[Alhanelem]

When JPs did ballista, they took the objectives seriously. They'd usually kick your butt both at combat and at Ballista, which has some deep strategy if you actually got into it in its heyday.

[Hotsume]

I play the game for the whole Package.

I like the FF-World, the characters, the universe and the game.

I like the PvE, the boss-fights, the stories.

And in every FF game since FF1, people have been at war, kicking the shit out of each other.

I want the whole package, but I'm not asking for the right to kill noobs or people lower level than me.

I want to battle the hardest foes, the human mind has to offer!

Hey you, how's the ballista scene on Phoenix? After how horrible FFXIV turned out i'm coming back to XI and looking for an active ballista server.

Also, ballista 60 cap is extremely balanced and one of the most fun activities in XI (imo).

[Urteil]

Hey me,

'There isn't much of a random scene anymore, but lot's of people like to PvP just nobody goes to official matches.

If you ask around (Like I do) everyone does, I fight people from HNMLS, random people all the time.

Worst case scenario, you can just settle with me, however I like to fight relics/aegis etc. So I'm sort of into balls to the wall 90cap.

But I think if you asked around or sought people out a bit you'd find people to compete and maybe even go to OM's, I haven't tried shouting but I've been thinking about making my LS go to OM's and try to recruit people in Jeuno for fun.

Who knows!

[Urteil]

I agree there should be improvements to PvP. My LS does ballista/brenner just for fun on occasion to test our skill but we never use the actual "game" they have built into them. Its fun to just enter a completely deserted zone and kill your friends without consequence but it could be made a lot better.
A reward system of exp or gil would be exploited to no end sadly so that's not such a great idea imo but they could at least give us more options for it.

I'd like maybe nation credits, or neat consumables like revitalizers, warp clubs, chocobo summons, OP warps where you can pick any OP in the world, maybe a sky/sea warp.

Things like that would be awesome.

Or even cosmetic things like costumes, or something like an Aura you possess (much like a Chevron). It doesn't have to be gear, it could be a lot of neat things like that which wouldn't really affect the game but give neat incentive.

But the only incentive a true man needs, IS THE FURY AND PASSION OF THE BATTLE.

[Nexdeus]

Ok, just to expand a little more on the Colosseum idea this is what I personally have in mind.

The area would be its own zone, however, it would be able to be accessed by anyone at any given time without any fee to enter. Within this zone, you have the main entrance where there will be several NPC systems that are there to display several bits of info.
1 : Rankings
2 : Match Schedules
3 : Registration
4 : Gil Bets

The area would then fork off into 2 directions, left and right, and each direction splits into two choices. Each will lead into its own little "box" where you can view the match in front of you. There will be up to 4 matches possible going on at one time. Similar to prankration.

1: Rankings, obviously would display the winners of all the matches and would serve to display tournament progression if needed.

2: Times of the matches to be had. Name vs Name @ 12:00 Vana Time or w/e

3: Registration NPC would allow you to register in a match, you can set it to be 1 v 1, 2 v 2, or 3 v 3, lvl caps, etc.

4: This is the good part, people can willingly place bets on the matches outcome! Gil Gil Gil

Skipping back to the layout, once you register, you are allowed to roam the area and view matches till your turn comes up. Once it is time, you will be warped into a small room, and within that room will be a NPC that will sell to you ( using special Colosseum points ) temp items(potions, ethers, no giants drinks or broken junk), buffs(pro shell haste according to lvl cap). Then once the match begins, a door opens up and you pass through to face your opponent.

Once the match is done, the winner will win some of the gil from the bets, and will earn credits within the Colosseum that can be used for the buffs, and stuff, and also new PVP type ARMOR and WEAPONS!

These weapons and armors can be augmented using the points as well with buffs such as ice spikes, counter, dmg taken, mdt, etc. blah blah blah

So yeah, SE gimme this now!

[Urteil]

this game first off does not lend itself to PvP in combat style, secondly it doesnt fit in with the story line

and finally PvP is horrible in games that do have it, WoW made me want to pull my hair out, Everquest had to make buffer zones

PvP leads to douchebaggery

1. What exactly is PvP combat style, PvP can range from all kinds of 'styles' from games of Chess, RTS, or FPS shooters.

1a. Story-line? In nearly every Final Fantasy somebody is at war with somebody killing somebody over some crystal or magical artifact or a girl that can summon monsters. The nations are at war and while full scale PvP may not fit in present Vana-Diel, it sure would have fit in the past and it happened in the past.

A coliseum or arena is hardly far-fetched, or people having disagreements and fighting. That is the human stage, and Final Fantasy has always had humans fighting humans or some other humanoid monster / antagonist.

2. Thats because these games really aren't that good, just popular. Sadly as most things go, and I am sorry to hear that you have had such a horrible experience with this area of MMORPGs.

3. 'Douchebaggery' exists regardless - mainly because of ignorant statements such as that. I'm sure if you logged into Hello Kitty online, you'd still find a douche.

PvP doesn't make douche's, normally you find the 'douches' aren't very good at all, they bully people then get their faces stomped.

If anything lack of consequences and the necessity to have true backing behind one's actions does.

[Alhanelem]

The game absolutely does lend to its own unique PVP combat style. It's very party based, whereas in WoW it's practically every man for himself, even in the battlegrounds- there's no coordnation or anything.

Have you ever had a good ballista match? Usually it's with the JPs, but a nice 12v12 Ballista in Pashhow was really exciting. Full of strategy and tactics- you couldn't just run up to people and kill them. Jobs in FFXI have a narrower scope than classes in WoW, where every class is designed to be able to stand on its own in PvP. Bards aren't powerful combatants in Ballista (Though that's not to say they can't fight at all, I've met a few mean BRDs :p), but when you have team mates taking advantage of his presence, it can change the tide in your favor. Good WHMs not only keep their team alive, they're extremely hard to take down, making them and PLDs some of the best Petra scorers.

I really wished they made the ballista royale an annual event.

[Sureal]

the nations are at "peace", the storyline of ffxi itself does not lend itself to random PvP battles. Ballista, brenner and w/e else they have, fine, it "works" there so to speak

and just curious as to which side you are taking urteil, as you have posted agreeing with me and against me, and i think half this page alone is you posting over and over

[Teishi]

To the devs:
Ballista is beautiful as it is. The dedicated players will not enjoy any kind of sweeping changes. If you decide to take on some kind of new pvp event, I highly recommend you leave Ballista out of it. Thanks.

To the rest:
I can't speak for Brenner, but Ballista is based heavily on teamwork and communication, something unique to pvp in my opinion. And for those interested, Ballista is still going hard, you just have to know where to look.

[Nightstrike]

A pvp that put's job's against each other, you know, whm vs. whm, war vs. war and so on... that way it can be more balanced and you can also find out who has the better style of that job. In that since it would come down to equipment style, support job and player skill, tho they could make it so support job's are blocked out like with Maat, but i would think that would make it less interesting.

i haven't seen much for Ballista and Brenner, i guess it's because people don't think it's worth the effort, so if they'd put in some nice prize's, or do a tournament style with it's rewards.

[Alhanelem]

the nations are at "peace", the storyline of ffxi itself does not lend itself to random PvP battles. They're at peace in the sense that they're not "at war." but Look at Conquest. There is competition involved. And the whole point of ballista is not to illustrate some kind of war, it is purely portrayed as a sport.


The dedicated players will not enjoy any kind of sweeping changes. If you decide to take on some kind of new pvp event,Strongly disagreed. I think something needs to be done about BLU, as the job currently totally dominates over all others. Blue magic damage needs to be scaled back more, comprably to how far down WS damage has been scaled.

[Teishi]

Strongly disagreed. I think something needs to be done about BLU, as the job currently totally dominates over all others. Blue magic damage needs to be scaled back more, comprably to how far down WS damage has been scaled.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase. The dedicated 60-cap players will not enjoy any kind of sweeping changes. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Mirage]

--deleted--

[Harukusan]

I often find peoples' fear of BLU to be over-exaggerated. There are several ways around BLU magic, there is no need to give it so much credit just because you suck. For example: say I'm playing PLD 1v1 with a BLU. BLU typically use their physical damage based magic as it is their stronger suit (unless they figure out their opponent's weakness may be actual magic, which is much more difficult for a BLU to pull off given the longer cast time). As a PLD, I have the ability to actually block these spells with my shield, Sentinel severely blows off the damage, and flash can cause a BLU's spell to take no effect at all. When I play DRK, I love to sub PLD in PvP for that very reason: to kill BLUs and Elvaans! Also, has anyone heard of this spell called "Silence?" Abilities such as "Tachi: Gekko," or "Guillotine?"

[Hotsume]

Play 60 caps. Only jobs you need to truly fear are RNG, RDM, and BRD and even then they're not really OP.

[Alhanelem]

The dedicated 60-cap players will not enjoy any kind of sweeping changes. Apologies for the misunderstanding. It's still a problem even in 60 cap (though agreeably not as bad). And I hate 60 cap. I hate level caps in general. I'ts not fun if you can't use everything your job has to offer. Uncapped isn't a serious problem right now, as most people have at least part of emp +1 or 2, similar to how people had AF at 60 cap.

For me I can't say it isn't in part because the jobs I play don't get any of the skills that make them competitive until after 60. This was partially addressed recently, with Deus Ex Automata being level 5, so PUP is all set (with the improved skill caps it helped as well), but SMN has no good attacks until 65, SCH is horrible except as a healer until after 60, DNC does have what it needs more or less, but DNC just doesn't work that well in there in general.

We shouldn't be forced to use level caps for the sake of balance. It should be reasonably balanced at any level. The newer abilities need balance adjustments for ballista. If you want to say it's gear that makes it unfair, unless you're using a relic I disagree.

[Snoni]

A lot of people think PvP is a 1 vs 1 thing, where the best jobs dominate. You have to look at it in a team effort standpoint which is ballista requires a minimum of 3 per team for the sake of balance and such. There are times where the system sorts players incorrectly like 2 whms vs 2 wars. That needs to be fixed. The PvP system is near but not perfect balanced which is why certain jobs have and do not have certain WSes. Shadowstich, Energy steal/drain, gale axe, and most of the WSs that are disregarded are almost the key factors of a winning Ballista team. Team work and understanding other players jobs will surpasses any form of team without this.

Edit: All this talk about what dominates what, needs to be proven in a battle of ballista. Otherwise, you're all talk.

[Alhanelem]

A lot of people think PvP is a 1 vs 1 thing, where the best jobs dominate.I know, and you're right, but that doesn't mean there aren't balance problems. It takes more for a team with any combination of jobs to defeat a BLU in most cases than it does to defeat any other job. Just follow a series of ballista matches. If one team has a BLU or BLus on it and the other doesn't, that team usually wins. Obviously balancing PvP is no simple task, but I really think there is a problem in this area.

This comes from years of ballista experience and 100s of chevrons to back it up.

[Hotsume]

Uncapped is broken. No denying that.

I really do wish SE paid more attention to ballista. I wouldn't mind another shot at ballista royale.

[Alhanelem]

BLU is rather broken everywhere. Uncapped is broken mainly because none of the new stuff post-75 is tweaked for ballista except the weapon skills and nukes (which do have reduced damage)

[Harukusan]

A lot of people think PvP is a 1 vs 1 thing, where the best jobs dominate.

I completely agree with Snoni on this matter. Ballista isn't about any individual player, but about a team working as a whole. I do still enjoy good 1vs1 sparring, and sometimes 2vs1. Duels utilize a display of different forms of skill and tactics. But back to the main point. Ballista is a team based competition. If a team can't work together, they aren't going to win. It's as simple as that. Yes there are times when a jobs are off balance, but during a match you do still have the ability to warp out and change job to even things out, that is, if you really care about the competition. People who play Ballista usually do it to have fun more than to simply beat the crap out of each other, it's friendly competition.

Also, back to my point about BLU because that job is still being brought up. BLU IS OVERRATED. I hate BLU because yes, they can be button mashing noobs, but people give them way too much credit for the lack of skill it takes for them to be decent. The skilled players are the ones who consistently beat them time after time. If you can work out a strategy, you can win. All it takes is a little attention to detail.

[Vyiv]

I'm not exactly a fan of these public forums for obvious reasons, but this thread caught my eye after having read some of the most ridiculous responses. I'm just going to point out some interesting points:


The dedicated 60-cap players will not enjoy any kind of sweeping changes.
True. For instance, when we regular Ballista players—both NA and JP—heard the news of the increased ninjutsu damage, I must admit that most of us were worried. In fact, we flipped out. Thankfully, the update didn't cause any drastic—or even notable—offset. It should stay the way it is.


Uncapped is broken. No denying that.
True. No need to say much about this because this statement is as true as it can get.


I think something needs to be done about BLU, as the job currently totally dominates over all others.
False. Here we are, talking about how things should be more balanced, but unfortunately, there's hardly any absolute "balance" in any game—unless you're into tic-tac-toe. If I had suggested a game like chess instead, I'm sure you would be able to come up with some grotesque excuse for it imbalanced. Sorry, bud, but Ballista isn't 100% balanced, but we do our best to work with it. That's just the way it is.


I hate 60 cap. I hate level caps in general... We shouldn't be forced to use level caps for the sake of balance.
Unfortunately, if you want to play any routine Ballista at all, it's going to have to be 60 cap because that's the only cap that still exists. Not only is it the most "balanced" level cap [for Ballista], but it has also been the most popular since square one. For those who are preaching uncap, it's never going to come back.


This comes from years of ballista experience and 100s of chevrons to back it up.
"Years"? Who are you anyway?

But honestly, Ballista is misunderstood 99.99% of the time mainly because people don't have the right mindset going into the game. The first two paragraphs of this (http://vyiv.wordpress.com/about-ls/) can provide some further insight: link (http://vyiv.wordpress.com/about-ls/). Moreover, the competition is fierce these days, so I can't imagine any previous so-called-veteran players to return and survive.

Well, maybe tic-tac-toe is the only way to go. Oh, wait, it's not balanced! One person gets 5 moves while the other only gets 4. Houston, we're going to need a Lv60 cap version of tic-tac-toe.

[Alhanelem]

Who are you anyway? Someone who loves Ballista?


FalseIt's not false. BLU *is* a problem in ballista. Moreso at higher caps, but I still find it's by far the most poweful job in ballista as far as taking players down goes. This is somewhat but not compeltely balanced by BLU being fairly squishy, but I feel it's still an issue. You are 100% right, there is no way to achieve absolute balance, but that doesn't mean the balance can't be improved upon or polished at all.


Unfortunately, if you want to play any routine Ballista at all, it's going to have to be 60 cap because that's the only cap that still exists.The most balanced cap would be the lowest cap, because no one has any good weapon skills, nukes or anything else. 60 cap may be the most competitively successful, but it's not the most fun.


But honestly, Ballista is misunderstood 99.99% of the time mainly because people don't have the right mindset going into the game. I have the right mindset. I fully acknowledge and recognize Ballista as a team game, and a diverse set of jobs in your team is much more flexible and able to perform more sophisticated strategies to gain the upper hand and prevent the mentality of everyone just coming "the most powerful" thing.. However, this does NOT mean there are no balance problems. If Thing X is more difficult for a diverse team of decent players team to counter than Thing Y, then Thing X might be too strong or Thing Y might be too weak. Of course the mentality of players and the current metagame do have an impact on this, but again, that doesn't mean there are no problems, nor nothing that shouldn't be fixed.


Well, maybe tic-tac-toe is the only way to go. Oh, wait, it's not balanced! One person gets 5 moves while the other only gets 4. Houston, we're going to need a Lv60 cap version of tic-tac-toe. You basically just illustrated why level caps stink. e.g. they don't really solve problems.

[Vyiv]

Someone who loves Ballista?
Are you sure? It seemed like you were trying to make yourself sound "guru" with your "years of Ballista experience" claim.


You are 100% right, there is no way to achieve absolute balance, but that doesn't mean the balance can't be improved upon or polished at all.
So, I see that you're looking for balance. Well, my friend, there's something called 60 cap.


The most balanced cap would be the lowest cap
Lv30 cap? All right, bloody bolt and Bludgeon me for half my HP.
No, no. We'll have to reserve Diorama for a Lv10 cap.
Do you even play?


60 cap ... [is] not the most fun.
Opinion.


You basically just illustrated why level caps stink.
What?

[Harukusan]

I think caps suck in general. Throughout the game adding a level cap may have created a different challenge for some, but I thought it was just annoying. The same goes for 60 cap (or lower) ballista. I enjoy uncapped the most because it allows you to utilize all of your abilities. 60 cap takes things away and leaves me feeling violated because I'm unable to use my most prominent gear that I worked so hard for, and many JA that can potentially turn the tides against certain "broken" jobs. If you think there is imbalance to an uncapped match, think again. A truly competitive player will work around their "handicap" to overcome their opponents. If you are unable to do this, don't stop and blame the design. It's your own problem if you can't learn from your experience (a.k.a. your ass-whoopings).


where many battles are like a game of chess
I know I butchered this quote quite a bit, but it's my favorite among everything most people said. And it's true. You can decide whether you will win or lose if you play the game right.

[Alhanelem]

Are you sure? It seemed like you were trying to make yourself sound "guru" with your "years of Ballista experience" claim.It wasn't intended to sound "guru,", only to be clear that I'm not new and I have some qualification to speak on the matter. It in no way was meant to sound like "I'm pro and I'll kick your butts" or anything like that, because I'm not. Experience and skills are not the same thing, and I have more of the former than the latter. :p


Opinion.Did I say it wasn't? But I'm sure some number of people think the spells, attacks, and abilities they use now at the highest levels are "cooler" and often (though definitely not always) "more fun" than the ones they used in the first few levels. After all, if they aren't, what would there be to get excited about on reaching a new level? They could have made things like Cure and the elemental nukes scale with level instead of having seperate spell tiers, but that means fewer levels where a new spell/ability is learned, which decreases the reward feeling. Yes, we're talking about an opinion here, but it's an opinion based in reasonably sound logic.


So, I see that you're looking for balance. Well, my friend, there's something called 60 cap.PvP can be balanced at any level. It isn't only, nor does it have to be, balanced at 60 cap only. People don't like level caps in general. Why do you think the level caps were removed in CoP areas? Because people hate being locked out of their abilities,a nd hate having to carry special gear for different levels, especially when inventory space is tight. If PvP balance can be improved at higher levels, it should be. Just because the JP population formed around 60 cap doesn't mean it's the best, the most balanced, most fun, or the thing that everyone should be doing (It doesn't mean people *shouldn't* do 60 cap either, only that there exists a world outside of 60 cap and balance isn't and shouldn't be exclusive to it).

Gear is the main reason 60 cap is preferred. But people don't realize in FFXI, gear is not everything. A skilled player can overcome the differences presented by another player having better gear. It's not a factor that can be completely eliminated, of course, but it's a factor that does still exist at 60 cap, because there is "best" gear for level 60 just as there is "best" gear for lv75 or higher.


Do you even play?Attacking the Person is a fallacy. You will not gain any credibility here by insulting me.

[Siros]

Ok for one,the game has PvP... Ballista and Brenner look it up.And as for the Colessium.. its used for pankration,where u take snap shots of mobs in order to capture them and pitt them against each other in battle. And i agree that SE should bring Ballista royale back

[Urteil]

the nations are at "peace", the storyline of ffxi itself does not lend itself to random PvP battles. Ballista, brenner and w/e else they have, fine, it "works" there so to speak

and just curious as to which side you are taking urteil, as you have posted agreeing with me and against me, and i think half this page alone is you posting over and over


The issue isn't so static as to simply paint you wrong or right. Full blown chaos doesn't fit in the story line, but I can certainly see the venue of an arena or a zone being implemented with as little as a page of 'lore' created.

Felt it better to reply to individual responses in their own post.


Blue Mage is very easy to play, but it has several fatal flaws and isn't unbeatable by a long shot, on Dark Knight I do just fine.

The only PvP I'm really interested in takes place at uncap and I've always enjoyed competing against relic weapons and the top gear, saying "X cap is the best" is generally an excuse for the incompetent.

When all the new jobs mainly Blue Mage was introduced and when the level rose, I adapted, it is far from impossible.

[Alhanelem]

Ok for one,the game has PvP... Ballista and Brenner look it up.And as for the Colosseum.. its used for pankration,where u take snap shots of mobs in order to capture them and pitt them against each other in battle. And i agree that SE should bring Ballista royale back
JSYK, The Pit, the part of the zone used for Pankration, is not the only part of the Colosseum zone. There is another part of the area, which is supposed to be accessed through another door directly below the Kokoba Hostel. But it was never released. Many people theorized, based on how tiny that part of the area was compared to The Pit, that it was some kind of 1v1 arena or something. But we may well never know for sure what it was intended for.

[Xilk]

Add a scoreboard / ranking system for the best teams to ballista. I don't think that would hurt anyone's feelings.
Exchange points for specific PvP gear would be fun.

Otherwise, i think a 'duel' option would be fun anywhere.
Like 'trade' it only works if both players agree to it, and it just makes you both targetable to each other until the end of the duel. ie. one person/party dies, zones, or both choose to end it.

I wouldn't worry too much about balancing it for duels really. Not yet anyway. It would just be fun, and EASILY accessible.

oh, and NO open PvP. this game doesn't need it/want it/it would be terrible.

[Zumi]

Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day.

[Urteil]

Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day.

Dats nawt PeeVeePee.

[Runespider]

Adding serious PVP to FFXI would be like removing PVP from WoW. FFXI is a PVE game and most people like it that way, only way to really make pvp serious is to reward it with gear and that would annoy people that don't like it.

PVP also adds so many balance problems that it's far far more effort than it's worth, especially for such a small number of players.

[Urteil]

Adding serious PVP to FFXI would be like removing PVP from WoW. FFXI is a PVE game and most people like it that way, only way to really make pvp serious is to reward it with gear and that would annoy people that don't like it.

PVP also adds so many balance problems that it's far far more effort than it's worth, especially for such a small number of players.

1. Its been explicitly stated in interviews with WoW developers that the game is actually a game with strong PvE focus and with popular PvP element, its not strictly a PvP game, never was. And if you honestly think the end game raids are easy and there is no hard content in WoW you are sadly mistaken.

2. PvP is as serious as people want to it be, any good PvP player honestly doesn't give two shits about gear other than a means to an end. The 'serious' part comes from improving their abilities and doing well, not what shinies they can collect.

In reality I don't agree with there being "PvP Gearsets" I think that would ruin an aspect I like where in FFXI you have all this gear and get to pick, I am perfectly content with there being 'gear' and everyone using gear for 'situations.'

3. You imply that the game is somehow balanced right now, PvE or otherwise.

The entire myth that PvP and PvE can never be balanced is a crock, I have no idea where this came from. It's as easy as adding a specific area or status effect to combatants. This is very elementary and a fine example of this is DFO or any game with an instanced area of battle.

Aion does this by just modifying what abilities do versus human targets, its simple, simple, simple, simple, simple, programming.

Making both a PvE and PvP effect for an ability is something that has been done since....the early mid 90's.

[Harukusan]

Camping HNMs against other big LSs; is this not PvP? Competing with one another to try and achieve a similar goal? And what happens when you lose? Do you want to cry about it? Well, this is completely off the whole concept of ballista, but if I wanted to bash someone's face in, it would be through that. Stop the foreplay in abyssea with all the competition and get straight to the point. If you think you're better than someone, no, if you think you're better than FFXI's own PvP, then you should prove it. If you have nothing good to say about it for no reason, then STFU and GTFO. No one cares what you think. This thread was intended for Ballista fans who want to bring it back to light. If you're against us, and won't show your face in an actual ballista competition, then just walk away. We can't change your mind, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but don't tell us about it.

[Zaknafein]

Yes yes yes plz!!! Either the zone to itself for Pvp or make it possible to reserve an uncapped ballista style area with gil.
This is a win for everyone. Helps keep people occupied in the game. Hours of endless fun from one zone.
If people don't like to Pvp don't go there very simple. I honestly think this would draw back a lot of retired players, and help to retain the current population. Plz devs hook it up :)

[Urteil]

If you're against us, and won't show your face in an actual ballista competition, then just walk away. We can't change your mind, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but don't tell us about it.

Move to Phoenix I beg you.

MAKE IT THE BALLISTA CAPITAL.

[Hiswhitewings]

Not this again. Short version;

FFXI is easily the best balanced game for PvP. No, your WAR won't kill a RDM. But once you start getting into bigger matches, using items you find with /quarry (Lethe comes to mind which dispels buffs someone might have on) it becomes a lot more fair. Keep in mind you don't have to KILL that annoying RDM on the other team, or the WHM, or the BLM, you just have to make them either run away due to being paralyzed, silenced, or having their buffs stripped, while your own team ganks someone who was caught by Gravity, Bind, Stun, etc.

In the end, there's no way to fix this. It's obvious the FFXI community is anti-pvp for whatever reason while the pro-pvp people are spread thin amongst the servers. Only solution I can see is to have a server designated for PvP. Either one we can access via the current Ballista NPC's or by server transfer. I prefer the first option.

[Alhanelem]

Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day. PvP does not mean going around the world and killing anyone you see. In FFXI it means "Doing Ballista or Brenner in a closed environment that does not affect anyone that isn't participating." Not even FFXI's few diehard PvPers want world wide PvP.

[Akuma]

leave blu alone lol. I think a upgrade to pvp is needed. it would be fun to have pvpve kind of environment better than we have now.

[Sparthos]

PVP is sorely underrated in XI.

Fort vs Fort combat would be fun, inclusive and with the right rewards would help to stir some competition - something sorely lacking in '11 XI.

[Catsby]

I think a PvP add-on that has as much content and changes in it similar to abyssea would be awesome. A handful of objective based modes and zones specifically designed for them would probably get a lot of people interested. The only thing I can think off that holds this back is FFXI's pacing in all of its systems. menus, npcs, everything is a bit too sluggish for PVP in my opinion. Some of this could be fixed to benefit all of FFXI though like having NPC menus display more than 3 options and staying above 3 levels deep.

I haven't done ballista or brenner in years not because I don't want to but because I can't. There simply isn't anybody I know of who wants to play it. This is probably since there haven't been any encouraging updates or additions to it in years.

[Amanie]

i repeat, PvP needs updating. while the "unbalance" of the system made it difficult for say a normal/decent player/job to go against a decent BLU, RDM, to continue participating. the current trend of revisions to the game have been less nerfing and more enhancing.

- i mentioned atma like buffs to the PvP. the right choices would make it easier to survive or destroy for an average player. it would also make good players really stand out. as well as make some really amazing 1on1 fights.

-gear rewards that can be purchased or easily won that are useful outside of PvP is a great incentive to increase interest. who would have traded in all those coins if you didnt get a turban out of it? said gear could also have ballista only stats on it as well.

feel free to add any more suggestions. if you think about it, steriods, would make sports a whole lot more entertaining

[Harukusan]

gear rewards that can be purchased or easily won that are useful outside of PvP is a great incentive to increase interest. who would have traded in all those coins if you didnt get a turban out of it? said gear could also have ballista only stats on it as well.

I disagree with this idea and I'll tell you why: Adding gear that can be useful outside of Ballista might catch peoples' attention, but do you think it would bring the right crowd? You'll be getting people who have no interest in the actual competition and it would serve to be a series of dull matches. Not to mention how easily it can be exploited. No one would take it seriously.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

PvP = WoWAlmost what I was going to say.

This is FFXI, not WoW.

[Harukusan]

Almost what I was going to say.

This is FFXI, not WoW.

You're right, this isn't WoW. This game is far more complex to the point where most of you can't comprehend it. And that especially goes for Ballista which everyone seems to have a knack for negativity towards. I've played PvP on other MMORPGs. Most of them are awful. FFXI is very unique and requires much more thought to your actions.

[rog]

FFXI is very unique and requires much more thought to your actions.
What...? Ffxi's pvp is terrible. I'm sorry but capture the flag isn't unique, and it certainly doesn't make up for restricting gear swaps in a game that has absolutely no full time gear.

[Harukusan]

What...? Ffxi's pvp is terrible. I'm sorry but capture the flag isn't unique, and it certainly doesn't make up for restricting gear swaps in a game that has absolutely no full time gear.

The main reason gear swapping isn't allowed in Ballista, as ridiculous and easily fixable as it sounds, is because when you swap gear in the middle of a fight, your opponents lose target from you and it automatically fixes their target to themself, disabling them from using macros with <t> or anything else that involves directly attacking your target. It's inconvenient. To prevent people from exploiting this, they added a penalty to it. Besides, choosing a gear set to use specifically for it is a part of the challenge. It may not be something you would use full time, but that's what separates Ballista from the rest of the game. The mechanics are not the same, and as such it should not be treated the same.

FFXI's PvP is far better than any other MMO game I've played, and I'm not just saying that because I'm biased toward FFXI. I really did give other games a chance, and they just don't have the same pace, or require the same focus of mind. Most other games that people think are "made for PvP" are really just my equivalent to a BLU in PvP: Button mashing to try and kill faster doesn't make you good at it.

[Amanie]

the gear is an incentive to participate. if they want it, they are going to have to try for it. if they like ballista or whatever new game mode they might make, then they will continue to participate in it. if they dont like, then they get their item and go about their business, but atleast they tried it.
Who cares if it draws the attention of the "bad crowd" at the very least you get the opportunity to beat the snot out of them!!!
some PvP is better than no PvP.
its the grand re-opening sale. you need the big sign and some jugglers on stilts, and a wacky inflatable arm-flailing tube man to bring the crowd in. the product and service keep them coming back

[hadeed]

some suggestion in the PvP

1) make Atma system in Ballista with points , 3 Atma equip similar to the Abyssea Atma ( but don't connect them , like he has to get the Abyssea Atma to use it in Ballista , just PvP Atma use )

2) no Weakend after raise or I would say shorten the time from 5mints to 1mint.

3) add damaging temporary items not only buff one .

4) make it easy to assemble players to get to PvP , don't make the player just run or walk to it , use NPC teleport.

5) let the player choose the level not, don't make it timed <very important>
any suggestion will help . cheers~

[CrystalWeapon]

Too many counterpoints about PvP = WoW. :P Yes pvp is a big part of wow but have you played wow do you know the history of the game. It's a completely different animal. Mainly WoW is very solo oriented and has always been "Red vs Blue" by which I mean you have a light side and a dark side. Both sides are constantly at war so PvP is a very big part of their game but PvP is not defined by WoW's definition of PvP.

FFXI has a very different aspect of PvP. In final fantasy it's not you're my enemy you're not the same alliegence as me let's kill one another. It's more of a "Let's see what we can do against one another's setup" it's competitive play it's not bloodlust. By which I mean, I can go with my linkshell and say let's duke it out and test out our jobs vs one another while still being friendly. Going for drinks afterwards and what not. Final Fantasy XI has always been very community oriented and I highly doubt improving PvP would make it magically turn into WoW where you need very little strategy and can lone wolf most things. Long story short if they did take the time to impliment this and you don't like PvP then don't do it, it's not like anyone would twist your arm. It's not like it would even affect you if you're not into PvP to begin with you could just look away :P

Personally I would like to see the battle arena opened and not just made it into PvP I would love to be pitted against PvE with a few friends fighting along side of me with random monsters as the rounds progressed. The option of bigger PvP battles is intriquing but you would need more incentive than what's already in place, it'll have to be something completely different than what we have now.

[Naturebeckles]

Too many counterpoints about PvP = WoW. :P Yes pvp is a big part of wow but have you played wow do you know the history of the game. It's a completely different animal. Mainly WoW is very solo oriented and has always been "Red vs Blue" by which I mean you have a light side and a dark side. Both sides are constantly at war so PvP is a very big part of their game but PvP is not defined by WoW's definition of PvP.

FFXI has a very different aspect of PvP. In final fantasy it's not you're my enemy you're not the same alliegence as me let's kill one another. It's more of a "Let's see what we can do against one another's setup" it's competitive play it's not bloodlust. By which I mean, I can go with my linkshell and say let's duke it out and test out our jobs vs one another while still being friendly. Going for drinks afterwards and what not. Final Fantasy XI has always been very community oriented and I highly doubt improving PvP would make it magically turn into WoW where you need very little strategy and can lone wolf most things. Long story short if they did take the time to impliment this and you don't like PvP then don't do it, it's not like anyone would twist your arm. It's not like it would even affect you if you're not into PvP to begin with you could just look away :P

Personally I would like to see the battle arena opened and not just made it into PvP I would love to be pitted against PvE with a few friends fighting along side of me with random monsters as the rounds progressed. The option of bigger PvP battles is intriquing but you would need more incentive than what's already in place, it'll have to be something completely different than what we have now.


this is a very good post. I don't know about other servers, but on Sylph PvP is pretty much dead. I don't know anybody who does it anymore. It does seem that the developers could do something to revamp it and make it attractive again. But, I don't really see myself doing it any time soon. The few times I have done it, I learned really quick how the strategy to PvP in FFXI is far different than any other aspect of the game - and for that, the challenge of learning it is a bit exciting. The last time I did it, I was proving to another player who isn't the brightest crayon in the box that my war was better than his drk (only because he had no clue how to play his job) and I proceeded to kick him all over the Ballista Brennan Beach.

[Harukusan]

some suggestion in the PvP

1) make Atma system in Ballista with points , 3 Atma equip similar to the Abyssea Atma ( but don't connect them , like he has to get the Abyssea Atma to use it in Ballista , just PvP Atma use )

I'm sorry, say that again please?


2) no Weakend after raise or I would say shorten the time from 5mints to 1mint.

Are we still talking about Ballista or the game as a whole? I agree weakness sucks, but in Ballista you don't Raise anyone. There is a timer you wait out after being K.O.'d that picks you back up to full health, 50% TP (if had you TP), and 50% of your MP. When you raised up you became invisible and people couldn't attack you so you could have a chance to get away and recoup.
You also have the option to "HP" which would send you to your team's side of the battle area, completely restored HP and MP. This is useful if you're completely out of MP, or if you die so many times that your K.O. timer is too long.


3) add damaging temporary items not only buff one .

It's not exactly a "damage-inflicting" item, but I think it's much better. In Ballista you get Lethe Water and Lethe Water +1, which, for those of you who don't know, are Dispel potions that you use on your opponents, potentially making them vulnerable to your attacks.


4) make it easy to assemble players to get to PvP , don't make the player just run or walk to it , use NPC teleport.

There are NPCs called "Persuivants" which are located in every major nation: Windurst Waters, Ru'Lude Garden, Norther San d'Oria, Aht Urgan Whitegate, and Port Bastok. These NPCs teleport you directly to public matches.


5) let the player choose the level not, don't make it timed <very important>

I'm not quite clear what you said here, but when you set up your own private match in Diorama Abdhaljs-Ghelsba or Abdhaljs Isle-Purgonorgo, you have the option to choose what level cap you want it to be. While you only have a 2 hour time limit on your reservation, you can make individual matches last as long as you want. When the time is up, just go back in and do it again! It's fun :)

[Ophiuchus]

I second a raise given to ballista. I unfortunatly never got to fully experience the joys of ballista because it's popularity had already died down by the time I hit 75. I had gotten a few level 60 matches in with a BLM onces or twice, oh how much fun it was to stun someone that just /sprinted away and watch 5 people of your team just converge on them. Or invisible up and sleepga unsuspecting groups.

As far as balancing goes, I don't quite feel I have appropriate grounds for suggestion as I have not done any modern Ballista so I don't know what's good/bad/broken/etc.

However I agree that ballista/brenner needs a higher incentive to get others to play it. I also agree that giving out plain exp/gil/equipment/etc for matches would most likely result in abuse in the system and people that really shouldn't be playing would get involved.

My suggestion is simple:
*since it's been stated many times here that FFXI is team-based as is FFXI's PVP, I suggest that all matches give an amount of (imaginary, for sake of example) points on top of the default ballista points reward. The points rewarded to the player to be calculated by the efforts of both teams combined. A match where the score is 8-10 would reward players on BOTH sides with more points than a match of say 3-5. The caclulation doesn't just have to involve scores, it can incorperate total buffs casted, total damage done, etc; sort of how campaign is calculated.
*Now like I said players on BOTH teams get rewarded the same amount of base points. While the winning team gets say a 10-20% bonus. This would be a win-win for all involved I believe as it would reward both teams for playing a competitive game while not rewarding unsporting gameplay.

2ND part of suggestion:
*Allow the imaginary points(Pi) to be spent on a variety of other in-game systems. Such as exchanging for zeni, conquest points, allied notes, imperial standing, prehaps even small time extensions for abyssea if your current stocked time isn't currently at the 120m cap.
*The amount of Pi to be exchanged proportionatly can be different for each possible reward. Say 100 conquest points for 1000 Pi, 250 zeni for 1000 Pi, 100 imperial standing for 1000 Pi, 1 minute time extension for 100 Pi. Or Whatever would be the the proper rate compared to the natural aquisition of these rewards would be; these suggested are just examples. This would allow players to participate in ballista without feeling as if they are using their time in game, gaining nothing. Thus leading to player rational OF playing ballista instead of the rational of NOT playing.

[Alhanelem]

in Ballista you don't Raise anyoneIt's done rarely, but you can raise people. If you do, they do not lose their petras but do get weakened. It's usually not worth it, but in a tight match that's almost over, you can't afford to spend time digging for petras, and it might be worth raising (if you act fast enough).

[Harukusan]

It's done rarely, but you can raise people. If you do, they do not lose their petras but do get weakened. It's usually not worth it, but in a tight match that's almost over, you can't afford to spend time digging for petras, and it might be worth raising (if you act fast enough).

Very true. Not typical but if you can make it to score, it's worth the effort. It's not very easy when the opposing team is heavily guarding the rooks. Unfortunately Caitsith was never really known for the best strategists or organization when it comes to Ballista. Also, Ballista has been dead on Caitsith for a couple years. Since I'm being forced out of my server next major update anyway, I'm considering going to a server of Ballista paradise. We should all just organize a vast migration to one server to keep Ballista alive and strong.

[Siros]

Yea I would love PvP then I could gank all the people I didn't like and then camp them all day.

Gank means steal,not kill. idk where ppl are getting word ideas from,lol.

[Mirage]

Open worldwide PVP is far from the same as adding more options for consenting PVP matches.

[Zaknafein]

A centralized area for the "new and improved" PvP matches is very important.

No lvl restrictions, entrance fee gil based, teams not subject to nationality.

Plz for the love of altana no atmas. Give these noobs a reality check.

This would achieve so much more in the way of retention, and grooming new players

than reskinned zones could ever hope to accomplish!

[Alhanelem]

Open worldwide PVP is far from the same as adding more options for consenting PVP matches.
Someone has never played DotA, Heroes of Newerth or League of Legends.

[Musahashi]

PvP doesn't have to be like Wow. We already have a system, and it's a good system. All it needs are some good rewards, and you will see it's revival.

Things SquareEnix need to start working on now, are some level 90+ rewards for PVP, campaign, besieged, conquest, and of course, some extreme awards for capping out your defensive combat skills.

I'm hearing a lot of complaining about everything except abyssea right now, and then people complaining that there isn't anything but abyssea, and your all wrong. What your asking for is already out there, you just haven't found it, or you've found it, but it doesn't reap it's rewards as it once did.

So we all need to stop complaining about SE nuking our game, they're doing because your asking them too. People keep saying, this needs an update, or that needs an update because it's failing. So, they think you mean, it needs an overhaul to make it more interesting, when in fact, you mean it needs better rewards. It's a lack of expression that is killing the game, tell them we need rewards for our efforts, instead of telling them they need an Enix style overhaul for something that Squaresoft produced, and was gold when they did.

[Miiyo]

PvP? pfft. why break hearts unneccesarily. blm one shot you all with firaja 3 and fire staff.

[Miiyo]

Somehow i don't think enough people care about pvp for it to be worth fixing.

Set! Point and case closed.

[Renesmay]

I definintly vote for PvP we have evrything else why not make a flag systme or a special area just for PvP. I also think that PvP would greatly help some of the arguments that rise against players. Instead of verbally taking out their agression they can just fight it out in the PvP area. Make it to where you can chose a group one on one or even linkshell PvP. Make the price reasonable since we know it wouldn't be free. And available for jobs 15+ low level jobs dont have anything fun to get into like the higher jobs lol.

[JagerForrester]

This game is too group-oriented against the beastmen to really throw in an actual battlefield where adventurers of different nations fight against each other for control. The settings are still set after a war, and Ballista was introduced as a friendly PvP game against the nations. If you want PvP, go set up a linkshell with other players willing to PvP on a regular basis.

[Alhanelem]

PvP? pfft. why break hearts unneccesarily. blm one shot you all with firaja 3 and fire staff.
That doesn't happen. All damage is reduced in PvP. And even still, that has a long cast time. It's pretty easy to run over to the BLM and beat him up while he's casting. For a BLM to do well, he has to suprise people by casting on people that are already busy fighting so they won't notice the "starts casting on you" message.

[Harukusan]

PvP doesn't have to be like Wow. We already have a system, and it's a good system. All it needs are some good rewards, and you will see it's revival.

You could have stopped there, but you went and pointed out how vaguely expressive people are when it comes to showing what they want. I agree that there is nothing wrong with the way Ballista is, I don't even want more rewards. All I want is the satisfaction of putting noobs with big mouths in their rightful place. Abyssea really spoiled a lot of people. This thread is solely about Ballista. Not any other aspect of this game. Not a comparison between SquareEnix and SquareSoft, we all know Enix came in and screwed everything up. Can't change that.


PvP? pfft. why break hearts unneccesarily. blm one shot you all with firaja 3 and fire staff.

The mechanics of Ballista are very different from the actual game. Damage from nukes and weapon skills, for the most part, have been reduced to attempt to maintain a balance and give some players a chance at survival. Your target has to be an unbuffed Taru SMN wearing gear that reduces HP to one-shot them with a nuke lol. Of course, times are different now, I haven't played BLM in an uncapped match since before all the rising level caps. For all you know, Blizzard V might prove to be quite strong, but I'd imagine players more accustomed to Ballista would be prepared for it.


If you want PvP, go set up a linkshell with other players willing to PvP on a regular basis.

The problem with this is lack of interest on most servers. The point of this thread is to A) catch peoples' interest by explaining to them what Ballista is, and not what it's speculated to be by people who have never been to a Ballista match where people took it seriously. B) if there aren't enough people on any particular server to do Ballista regularly, it may get people to migrate to a server where Ballista is more popular. I know I might. If the server merge is still really going to happen (and I hope they do change their mind) I'll have to see what Ragnarok has to offer in terms of their Ballista scene.

[Harukusan]

That doesn't happen. All damage is reduced in PvP. And even still, that has a long cast time. It's pretty easy to run over to the BLM and beat him up while he's casting. For a BLM to do well, he has to suprise people by casting on people that are already busy fighting so they won't notice the "starts casting on you" message.

Chat filters can fix the problem pointed out here about "not noticing the 'starts casting' message.'"

As a BLM, whether you're alone or with your team, Sleepga is your best friend. Assuming your opponents didn't use a poison potion, they are pretty much stuck there punching themselves in the face wishing they could tear that BLM to pieces. If you catch an opponent alone, you (the BLM) have a good chance at nuking him down before his teammates can get to him, so long as you don't fool around with unnecessary spells, just Sleep > Gravity > Dispel to test if he has buffs > Nuke. If he wants to use a Catholicon to erase his weight effect, no problem! Just Sleep him again! Or make use of Bind or Stun or anything really... BLM has so many ways to stop someone from getting to them it's already "broken" as it is, but that's how it goes.

Lesson 1) Always bring Poison Potions. You won't always be lucky enough to dig them up!

Lesson 2) Unless you have a super magic defense or MDB set on, or have already built a strong resistance to debuffs, don't try to attack the BLM if you are alone! Certain jobs have a much greater chance at survival (or killing him), but I'm speaking particularly about jobs that have to be up close to attack, and have no way to stop them from moving (eg: WAR or SAM).

I think a lot of jobs have been able to put SCH sub to use for enfeebling enemies. In fact, a lot of people who subbed RDM got lucky many times with me in the past...

[Vinceroth]

PvP being revived would be fun, but at the same time, like many have stated, what would we get in return for doing it? I've played WoW for years just like FF11 and it seems FF may never be able to keep up with the players needs/wants for PvP and PvE. WoW constantly nerfs their classes bc one becomes more OP than the other, and it would happen the same with FF11. Once a person figures out the perfect combo to wreck havic to everyone blizz would nerf it and make it suck even more PvE. Since ff centers sololy around PvE that would cause many problems. Spell casters would get own bc the lack of being able to run around and nuke, melee's would always run the battles and it would become too one sided. So the lack of PvP is a good thing, but it will always suck for those that are for reviving it.

[Damage]

The lack of PvP on FFXI is what made me give up my oath to never MMO again. That's been a couple of years now and I'm perfectly happy that I rarely hear the phrase PvP on here.

Beefing it up would result in EVERY minor argument turning into people threatening for a while, then fighting, wasting other people's time and just generally giving people reasons to be a pain.

It's about team work here, not Me vs. You !

[Selzak]

An arena-type thing (which I was sure they were doing when ToaU came out) would be really cool. PVP is some of the most fun I've had on this game, but to make it fun you need a handful of like-minded individuals in Diorama or something who are willing to set up little 1v1, 2v2, etc. battles just for the sake of it.

They should introduce something where you can enter a small arena-type thing, adjust settings, players, etc. and duke it out in front of an audience. The little mini-games underneath the PVP we have now are just obstructing.

[JagerForrester]

The problem with this is lack of interest on most servers. The point of this thread is to A) catch peoples' interest by explaining to them what Ballista is, and not what it's speculated to be by people who have never been to a Ballista match where people took it seriously. B) if there aren't enough people on any particular server to do Ballista regularly, it may get people to migrate to a server where Ballista is more popular. I know I might. If the server merge is still really going to happen (and I hope they do change their mind) I'll have to see what Ragnarok has to offer in terms of their Ballista scene.
The lack of interest is my point exactly. Players asked for PvP, and they got it. There was even enough hype that SE hosted a "Royal Ramble Ballista Tournament." But after the hype dried up, it became a dead sport. I actually have a wish that unused mini-events are deleted to help free up some space for future updates rather than have it sit there and make them worthwhile again. If they deleted these events for more worthwhile updates, it would benefit the game as a whole. (Covers head for flames)

[Alhanelem]

The problem with this is lack of interest on most servers.This is largely because of the lack of reward. No special items, just a bit of gil, a miniscule amount of EXP, and a title. And an achievement on the Xbox 360.

If you could get some items, even if they were only useful for PvP, interest would be higher.

If they continued to have the tournaments, interest would be higher. The winners in that DID get exclusive items- effectively the rarest in the game.


If they deleted these events for more worthwhile updates, it would benefit the game as a whole. Removing old content does not accellerate development of new content. Ballista requires a miniscule amount of disk space. The two special areas for it are exact copies of existing areas and thus re-use the same textures at no additional space cost.

They should not delete something because it's unpopular. They should do something to make it more popular, or they should just leave it alone, so those people who do like it can still have it.

Why do people do PvP (on PvE servers) in WoW? Because they get stuff for it. It's not the best stuff, so it doesnt harm PvE (and often the stuff they get is specifically for PvP). If you removed the rewards for battlegrounds in WoW, people would stop doing it almost instantly.

[Zeh]

if there aren't enough people on any particular server to do Ballista regularly, it may get people to migrate to a server where Ballista is more popular.

Actually, Ballista is still going strong on Lakshmi. I realize that there aren't many valid sources for Ballista updates these days, but I can provide a few. I posted this on the Allakhazam forums a while back, so I'll just copy and paste.

http://war.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=129620088932908306

"The only reliable NA sources for Ballista are:

* http://www.youtube.com/user/deshi0
* http://vyiv.wordpress.com/

As for JP sources, there used to be several websites for updates, but many of those players have stopped playing. I suppose this one is decent, but I wouldn't place 100% trust in its content:

* http://leban.blog113.fc2.com/
EDIT: The owner quit recently, but it's still an interesting Ballista site to take a look at.


This website used to be good (as it had a relatively updated cross-server Ballista database), but I think the owner, like many other veterans, stopped playing:

* http://www.h6.dion.ne.jp/~oka.zi-4/

If anyone else has other valid recommendations, please feel free to post."

[Harukusan]

Adding gear rewards specific to PvP on FFXI is a great reward for people who enjoy Ballista, and even Brenner (I guess). But as I mentioned before, adding general rewards that impact the game overall could invite players who would simply exploit it to reap easy treasure. The idea is a bit flawed. If there was a way where it could be inviting to players who aren't fond of Ballista, while making it challenging for them to get what they're after, it might get them to take it more seriously.

By exploitation, my biggest concern would be maybe 2+ people who take turns killing each other and scoring for the sake of building points to purchase rewards with Ballista points, or be instantly rewarded with items through a potential new idea that was brought up before. My solution would be to simply to take them both out! Anyone who has been there can figure out who is playing their part to benefit the team and who is there to screw around and feed the other team free wins.

[Jamesruglia]

I'm not much into outright "Utsusemi > Me"... I mean, "player vs. player" combat. I like the concept of the sports they have now, but not so many people actually play the sports-especially not Brenner, the one I most want to play.

[Alhanelem]

Brenner was interesting at first, but it's too complicated. it should have just been simply capture the flag, not "beat up the flag stands and capture multiple flags."

[Alhanelem]

Bumpity! This is a pretty important topic to me, so keep the discussion going! :D Would it really bother anyone if SE introduced rewards you could buy with ballista points, such as unique equipment whose main effects are limited to ballista/brenner only? If no- would it bother you if, further, equipment was obtainable through ballista points which was effective outside of ballista, as long as it wasn't superior to empyrean stuff? The promise of an at least slightly useful reward would really drum up some interest, since no one does anything in this game if it doesnt have a reward =\

It would also be nice to have an automated competition system where you could earn the items from the ballista royale. I'm sure some people would be interested in getting exclusive stuff like that.

They should also make it so you can recall ballista titles you've earned at the title bards.

[Harukusan]

Bumpity! This is a pretty important topic to me, so keep the discussion going! :D

This is the only thread I keep up with, all the others are just dumb boring crap. Most of it probably belongs in the "New Player Guidance" Section of the forum.

Bring Ballista back to life!

[Zeh]

Ballista is still alive, and the only people who continue to play are those who love the game for what it is. They don't need material rewards as an incentive to play. They play to have fun. Introducing "rewards" for Ballista would only temporarily interest people to play, if any at all. When the experience point reward were added to the Ballista system, it didn't invite any new players. Instead, it was just a nice end-of-the-meal tip for people who already played. Sure, the Ballista Royale (reward) sparked new interest at the time, but the majority of people stopped playing shortly after it ended. If people only play Ballista for some sort of "gain", then that would defeat the purpose of the game.

[Alhanelem]

and the only people who continue to play are those who love the game for what it is.Those people aren't a large enough population for good matches. I'm lucky if I can persuade ONE other person to do it. The incentives are more for people who are less aware of ballista or couldn't be troubled to do the unnecessary license quest (something that should be removed).


When the experience point reward were added to the Ballista system, it didn't invite any new players.That's because it was a piddly amount (500 EXP at 75 cap for an hour's worth of playing), and wasn't based on performance.

If they had a tournament each year, it would have helped keep interest higher.


If people only play Ballista for some sort of "gain", then that would defeat the purpose of the game. No, it wouldn't. In most cases, we seek out fun events and get cool stuff. Ballista is a fun event but you don't get cool stuff. Very few people do anything in the game without some sort of incentive. WotG's end reward was pretty meh, so it didn't spark much interest in completing it, preventing those who were really enjoying the storyline and cutscenes from being easily able to accomplish it. It may sound sad, but some kind of material incentive is needed.

[CebPtolemy]

I find the problems with pvp is what it has been right the way through, the battle system is just too slow to make it particularly interesting over pve content which would lead to rewards and the game itself never really seemed to be designed well for it. It worked in a clunky kind of way for 60 caps when a decent number of people bothered to show up, but nowadays i cant see it ever recovering.
Comparing it to a more pvp orientated mmo such as WoW the tempo issue is a large factor as to why its so popular, stuns and interrupts become game winners apposed to a mild annoyance in between waiting for your ni timer. Coupled with a lack of pvp orientated moves such as a lack of crowd control ffxi just cant keep up. Honestly i can't see the implementation of a reward and ranking system or even an overhaul of jobs for pvp balancing being enough to resurrect this long dead horse.
In the end if you want to pvp go play a game orientated for pvp and leave ffxi for pve.

[Alhanelem]

I find the problems with pvp is what it has been right the way through, the battle system is just too slow to make it particularly interesting over pve content which would lead to rewards and the game itself never really seemed to be designed well for it. I really beg to differ, and if you think combat is too slow in PvP, then you haven't really experienced it. Ballista can get very frantic when you have two full parties (or more). And fighting in parties is what FFXI is all about and when the PvP gets really interesting.


In the end if you want to pvp go play a game orientated for pvp and leave ffxi for pve. Absolutely not, because FFXI's combat system is much more fun than any of those games.

PvP is only successful in WoW because you can get great gear out of it. If there were no good rewards, it would die out.

[CebPtolemy]

The gear you gain through the WoW pvp system is all but useless in any pve content anyway so you're only bettering yourself for more pvp... Which i concede is sticking to the mmo stereotype of killing things to gear and kill things more effectively. However this being said it isn't the gear that makes people pvp or there would be no point in doing it at all since if you're gearing for pvp you obviously already want to experience pvp o_o

And i agree ballista can become frantic, but this only occurs when Shadows/SS/Phalanx falls off and needs reapplying, or when you don't have defensive spells at your command for some reason. At which point it becomes a race to reapply them or run away, apposed to WoW's system where its a burn fight which boils down to who can outplay their opponent or in most cases who has the better healer coupled with higher resilience rating. Neither system is great but WoW's does at least feel like it has been properly implemented and can be hectic even in 1v1 fights apposed to ffxi's "Ballista CAN get very frantic when you have two parties"

[Alhanelem]

The gear you gain through the WoW pvp system is all but useless in any pve content anywayI've played WoW for quite some time and that's not really true. At worst, you can get a PvP epic gear set and be at a minimum "ready" to start raiding. e.g. your "gear score," the only thing anyone cares about in the game, is high enough.


And i agree ballista can become frantic, but this only occurs when Shadows/SS/Phalanx falls off and needs reapplying, That's not true either. I can assure you, sub NINs don't all run away and panic every time I cast diaga to wipe their shadows


can be hectic even in 1v1 fights apposed to ffxi'sFFXI's combat is designed around parties, not 1v1 fights. Ballista and Brenner are designed around parties, not 1v1 fights. In WoW every class 100% stands on its own. Everyone can do whatever in a battleground and still win as long as they head in the general direction of their objective. in FFXI, all the key abilities are spread amongst different classes, thus more teamwork is necessary. This teamwork is what makes FFXI's combat fun, be it PvE or PvP.

[GERM]

yeah I have never been big on PvP either.. Im not saying it shouldn't have the option such as colosseum but from experience in some games you are barraged with people who want to insult you because you don't want to PvP or in some games you can just attack anyone anywhere (in or out of town) an that just takes away from the game..

[GERM]

That's not true either. I can assure you, sub NINs don't all run away and panic every time I cast diaga to wipe their shadows

when you get a NIN vs Soboro they flee in panic

I also don't like the system where in this game enemies can attack you when they are a distance away but you cant attack an enemy via the same method and this reflects in PvP concept as well.. you have one guy constatnly running in circles trying to kill a recast timer the other guy with a high delay can rarely attack..

a lot of things would have to be changed in order for this to work.. BLM sleep nuke method would kill anyone without poison pots ive been pwned by a drk with sleep bolts before.. there are just certain jobs that have a higher advantage in a PvP then others.. BRD will get ownded by anything because its just low survivability when it comes to 1 on 1

[Harukusan]

a lot of things would have to be changed in order for this to work.. BLM sleep nuke method would kill anyone without poison pots ive been pwned by a drk with sleep bolts before.. there are just certain jobs that have a higher advantage in a PvP then others.. BRD will get ownded by anything because its just low survivability when it comes to 1 on 1

I'm not ashamed to admit that a BRD once kicked my ass fooling around 1 on 1. If you have the ability to sleep your target, or otherwise stop them from attacking you, you have a strong chance to win the fight.

While FFXI in general was designed around team-based coordination, a little 1 on 1 duel is still fun for the typical Ballista fan. I've gained the most knowledge and experience, and shared more information with fellow players over the years through sparring sessions.


In the end if you want to pvp go play a game orientated for pvp and leave ffxi for pve.

You can't be so closed-minded to believe that a game is designed a certain way and think that there's only one way you should play it. There is more than one way to appreciate what's been made available to us. It's up to you to choose how you want to do it. For us, we choose to play Ballista as it is unique, fun, interesting, challenging, and did I say fun? Ballista used to be the original way to test your mettle. The best way to show you know how to stay on top of the game in terms of skill, gear and shear desire for competition that didn't involve camping NMs or fighting over who had the bigger e-peen vs. an EXP mob (which, if you haven't realized this by now, really really really SUCKED, and it still does).

[Amanie]

more suggestion on how you can improve ballista and less explaining/hating/comparing

the time for thinkers is over, we need doers

[Alhanelem]

in some games you are barraged with people who want to insult you because you don't want to PvP or in some games you can just attack anyone anywhere (in or out of town) an that just takes away from the game.. Nobody wants attack anywhere PvP. I don't, you don't, nobody does. We do want event PvP, PvP that does not interfere with anyone else's ability to play the game.

[Henihhi]

I would love to run around randomly killing San dorians or windurstians! There is also a flag option like wow where if you wanted to pvp you could flag for it, so if your in the middle of say an nm fight, other factions cannot attack you. But yeah PvP would be great and actually probably increase the player base

[Harukusan]

A way to participate in PvP outside of regular Ballista based matches that would be allowed anywhere, but without interrupting others around you, would be the ideal way to go about this. They've already got half the idea done thanks notably to FoV NMs. Now all we need is the option to propose a duel with someone, or party vs party, etc.

Of course just straight slaughter is fun and all, but Ballista itself is more than just beating other people up. In fact, the main goal of Ballista is to score petras, not to kill people. Taking people out just made it much more interesting :)

I'm all for going and doing this myself. But the last couple times I set up Ballista, no one showed up. My server doesn't have the right player base for it. I like to picture Ballista as a sort of version of chess. I might not be the king on the board, but I'd at least be a bishop or a knight, whereas Caitsith's general population would make up the pawns, some that have already been captured. By this I don't imply that they are easy targets, but due to lack of experience and probably a case of ADD, can't stay motivated to learn anything, and ultimately lose interest very quickly.

[Lithian]

A dueling option would be amaaaazing, and if you didn't want to duel just set an option to ignore duels.
Hell you could make an area where the duel command works and get rid of the joke that is Pankration.

I do agree that the dueling option seems like a VERY good idea.

Also, late reply, but, NO. NO. YOU STAY AWAY FROM MY SPANKRATION!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I do agree that the dueling option seems like a VERY good idea.

Also, late reply, but, NO. NO. YOU STAY AWAY FROM MY SPANKRATION!It's called the Coloseum that they never opened. Remember? It's that door to the left of pokem... pankration.

[Dale]

When are we going to Make PVP Better! It Sucks atm :(
Linkshell Vs Linkshell would be great! 18 vs 18 Do Hold Land's get point's for how long you have it. What do you guys think?

I admit I don't do it often on account I have so much else to get done on the game, but I always enjoyed doing ballista and brenner and found it a blast. So i take issue with you saying it sucks. I had more fun doing PvP on this game then I ever did on either WoW or Aion, both of which are suppose to be PvP games.

[Faule]

Allow for skillups in Ballista (Since I believe they're deactivated for the event).

Allow for new Ballista only weapon skills or spells with focus on interesting and new enfeebling effects rather than incredible damage output. Obtainable by chevron acquisition, petra scoring, or some other measure.

Raise the EXP reward for a match (500 EXP is a bit low).

Create purchasable equipment (weapons/armor) with "ballista-only" stats obtainable by spending Ballista Points.

Possibly increase the availability of Ballista areas. If a sanctioned match is not occuring, you have 2 zones whose participation can be 'rented and controlled' creating a bottleneck. Lowering the amount of exposure to potential new participants.

Change the discharge rules, it's no fun when people leave a side after having signed up and do not get a discharge. The teams will be far too unbalanced to be enjoyable. A time limit perhaps, because there's always cause to change jobs if necessary during the match.

I can't think of anything else. It's honest to good fun in those matches. Especially if you bring friends. Maybe that silly joke piece of gear like a clown nose just might be enough to get your friend in the linkshell to come try it out with you.

[Harukusan]

Allow for new Ballista only weapon skills or spells with focus on interesting and new enfeebling effects rather than incredible damage output. Obtainable by chevron acquisition, petra scoring, or some other measure.

I really like this idea. Adding more job specific abilities usable only in Ballista wouldn't be innovative as they've already implemented Campaign only weapon skills and offensive temporary items not found anywhere else, so adding this concept to Ballista or Brenner wouldn't be improbable, and may even create that "balance" some people are looking for in specific jobs.

Higher exp though? Do you really need exp? I won't argue against it, but it's not like exp is hard to come by. People would still heavily abuse Abyssea and all its wonders for that situation before they jump into the battlefield against other players.

[Faule]

You're absolutely right, it's a stretch to entice those who may be entranced by EXP rewards. As many or as few as there may be.

[Alhanelem]

Higher exp though? Do you really need exp?It's just the fact that it's already there, but so piddly and not based on performance (maybe the latter might make it "abuseable" but I don't see anyone getting especially good EXP either way so I doubt there'd be harm in it) that there's room to increase it. It might not be that enticing, but 500 may as well be 0, so they can make it bigger without a fuss.

[Urteil]

Even if nearly every comment I see about job matchups, whats overpowered, whats good, whats bad, is completley and utterly wrong.


At least people are talking about ballista.

That in some small way, makes me happy.

[Alhanelem]

whats overpowered, whats good, whats bad, is completley and utterly wrong.You're welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't make it correct. Let me guess, you play BLU in ballista? >.>

(Pre-cap rise): Disseverment- if this doesn't kill you instantly, the high damaging poison will. Easily the worst spell in PvP <=75.
Post cap rise: Several new spells that are all considerably stronger than Disseverment will kick your butt.

The only thing limiting these most powerful spells is short range (which is longer in ballista); The BLU spells do not seem to be affected much by the global damage reduction in PvP, either. This might just be a bug that's never been addressed, but it's a problem either way. BLUs are quite squishy, but they have accesss to a wide array of buffs that help cover that weakness.

SAMs )especially with RNG sub) are pretty tough customers too, but they are somewhat balanced by having no area effect or multi-hit attacks, so anyone with shadows (be it 60 cap or otherwise) has some defense. RNG/SAM is just about as strong.

SMN: Very, very weak until lv65 except for 2hour, so horrible for 60 cap. Merit pacts ignore shadows so SMN becomes quite good at 75+ ballista. BLUs and Tachi:Gekko are your worst nightmare though. Sleeping summons is very frustrating with the Smelling Salts being rather rare and the only way to wake them up, usually forcing you to resummon.

PUP used to be very probelmatic because killing the automaton was so crippling; but Deus-ex automata takes care of that problem and with the skill upgrade, PUP now performs very well in ballista, being able to fight without fear of losing the automaton for a third of the match. :)

[Harukusan]

You're welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't make it correct. Let me guess, you play BLU in ballista? >.>

(Pre-cap rise): Disseverment- if this doesn't kill you instantly, the high damaging poison will. Easily the worst spell in PvP <=75.
Post cap rise: Several new spells that are all considerably stronger than Disseverment will kick your butt.

The only thing limiting these most powerful spells is short range (which is longer in ballista); The BLU spells do not seem to be affected much by the global damage reduction in PvP, either. This might just be a bug that's never been addressed, but it's a problem either way. BLUs are quite squishy, but they have accesss to a wide array of buffs that help cover that weakness.

SAMs )especially with RNG sub) are pretty tough customers too, but they are somewhat balanced by having no area effect or multi-hit attacks, so anyone with shadows (be it 60 cap or otherwise) has some defense. RNG/SAM is just about as strong.

SMN: Very, very weak until lv65 except for 2hour, so horrible for 60 cap. Merit pacts ignore shadows so SMN becomes quite good at 75+ ballista. BLUs and Tachi:Gekko are your worst nightmare though. Sleeping summons is very frustrating with the Smelling Salts being rather rare and the only way to wake them up, usually forcing you to resummon.

PUP used to be very probelmatic because killing the automaton was so crippling; but Deus-ex automata takes care of that problem and with the skill upgrade, PUP now performs very well in ballista, being able to fight without fear of losing the automaton for a third of the match. :)

I find this to be a large sum of your opinion, mixed with few actual facts, scrambled up and making no point at all.

First of all, the thing about BLU: I still believe people give them too much credit for how easy it is to actually NOT die from them. If you get 1-shot by a BLU then you are beyond the worst player, because no one should die in one spell. I'm a Taru, and I often find it takes 3 to 4 spells unbuffed, depending how good the BLU is, to kill me. In the amount of time it takes this BLU to mash their buttons I have several options I can choose to turn this situation around, all vary by different jobs. If I'm on DRK or SAM, my primary option would be to not run away, but face them and spew my TP on them instantly, preventing them from attacking me at all and sending them off with their tails between their legs. In the case they are subbing NIN, it's not very hard to wipe shadows... Weapon Bash > Poisonga > Guillotine. (Sorry I use DRK as a reference a lot, it's the job I have most experience on in Ballista, but not the only job). Simple strategy, I know, but it usually gets the job done. Also, Urteil has mentioned a few times that his main job is also DRK.

It has been brought up several times before on this thread that no job is overpowered in Ballista. There IS a balance that no one cares to look into, with all the options for gear you can use, and so many truly experienced Ballista players to reference for info, this should be no secret. People can take a job like SMN or PUP for granted and call them weak, but only because some jerkass BLU thinks it's funny to run up behind and Disseverment you all the time, or because SAM almost always has TP, peoples' first thought is to be afraid and avoid them. Their disadvantage is being predictable. Before they even get to you, you should be aware of what they are planning to do, it's ridiculously easy. I can't find the right words to explain anyone's ignorance when they jump to such conclusions that they are "over-powered." Have you ever tried I mean actually tried thinking of other ways to turn the tide of the "over-powered jobs" and demoralize them a bit?

Ballista is about strategy, you can't just go in without one and expect to win. Likewise, you can't expect to have fun when you get steamrolled because you were unprepared. This is what turns most people off from Ballista. Don't blame the game, there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is you.

[Alhanelem]

Ballista is about strategy, you can't just go in without one and expect to winOf course, no one's disputing that. But there's an imbalance in blu because it gets a such a wide array of stuff and there's something awesome in all of it.

If BLU had the raw damage of its best attack spells but had no buffs or healing ability, it would depend more on others. But BLU has good self heals, a wide range of support spells, AND some of the most powerful magic in the game that also often takes no more than 2-3 seconds to cast.


The problem is you.There's no problem with me. There IS an imbalance here. Even with two solidly, intelligetnly built parties, if one has a blu and the other one doesn't, unless the blue is incompetent the team with the BLU will win far more often than the other team. I've seen it time and time again through hundreds of ballista matches. The BLUs virtually always have the highest ballista point totals after a match as well.


It has been brought up several times before on this thread that no job is overpowered in Ballista.I haven't seen "several" times, but any number of times it being said doesn't mean it's true.

Just because there are ways of dealing with something, it doesn't mean there's an imbalance. it its *more difficult* on average to counter a BLU than it is to counter most other jobs. It doesn't mean you CAN'T counter it, but it requires more skill and effort on the non BLU's part. That's when you can identify an imbalance. Something doesn't have to be unbeatable to be imbalanced. It's not a crippling, staggering imbalance, but it's enough of a problem to notice.


If you get 1-shot by a BLU then you are beyond the worst player, because no one should die in one spell. Absolutely completely wrong. Many people get oneshotted or nearly oneshotted by certain blu spells, and it hass nothing to do with how good a player they are. If you get hit with it, you're going down. If you took more than 2 spells from a BLU, either they weren't attack spells, or if they were, none of them were Disseverment, or the BLU was intentionally gimping their damage capability; thus I call BS on your claim. The only thing you can do is not be in casting range. All melee are at a disadvantage as a result- even if you have a stun weaponskill or something, the BLU will get his spell off before you can hit him. You absolutely must have sleepga support, and hope the BLU doesn't have a poison potion on.

Sure, you can probably take several spells on PLD, or MNK or NIN. but if you're on a squishier job, there's no helping getting owned by one or two spells. I also play mostly squishy jobs, so I have to depend on party roles to get an edge, and that's not always enough.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

There doesn't need to be balance in PVP, it's not a game mechanic.

[Alhanelem]

There doesn't need to be balance in PVP, it's not a game mechanic.
What you just said makes absolutely no sense.

[Urteil]

You're welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't make it correct. Let me guess, you play BLU in ballista? >.>

(Pre-cap rise): Disseverment- if this doesn't kill you instantly, the high damaging poison will. Easily the worst spell in PvP <=75.
Post cap rise: Several new spells that are all considerably stronger than Disseverment will kick your butt.

The only thing limiting these most powerful spells is short range (which is longer in ballista); The BLU spells do not seem to be affected much by the global damage reduction in PvP, either. This might just be a bug that's never been addressed, but it's a problem either way. BLUs are quite squishy, but they have accesss to a wide array of buffs that help cover that weakness.

SAMs )especially with RNG sub) are pretty tough customers too, but they are somewhat balanced by having no area effect or multi-hit attacks, so anyone with shadows (be it 60 cap or otherwise) has some defense. RNG/SAM is just about as strong.

SMN: Very, very weak until lv65 except for 2hour, so horrible for 60 cap. Merit pacts ignore shadows so SMN becomes quite good at 75+ ballista. BLUs and Tachi:Gekko are your worst nightmare though. Sleeping summons is very frustrating with the Smelling Salts being rather rare and the only way to wake them up, usually forcing you to resummon.

PUP used to be very probelmatic because killing the automaton was so crippling; but Deus-ex automata takes care of that problem and with the skill upgrade, PUP now performs very well in ballista, being able to fight without fear of losing the automaton for a third of the match. :)


I play Dark Knight, and only Dark Knight, and at the max level range whether it was 75,80,85 and now 90.

If you're getting hit by Blue magic without being slept, or bound. You are doing it wrong.

I employ 38% PDT with a magian 2-4 Scythe versus Blue Mages, or if I (rarley) feel the need I bump it up to 50% with a Magian Earth scythe and switch the slots around. Dying quickly is.... quickly a thing of the past even if you mess up your movement pattern and stay too long in the short fatal casting range that is a severe weakness of a Blue Mage's physical spells, well who's fault is that.

Melee range is far longer in Ballista, much longer. There are no modifications to casting distance which is 20'. I do not see or notice a modification for the casting of Blue Magic spells that is any different from outside.

Blue Mage requires the most strategy, especially the nefarious BLU/SCH, and it goes far beyond that tiny tidbit but nobody wants to read a wall of text. Feel free to PM me though.

[Urteil]

There doesn't need to be balance in PVP, it's not a game mechanic.

Come again?

[Alhanelem]

If you're getting hit by Blue magic without being slept, or bound. You are doing it wrong. No, you're not. It's extremely easy to get hit by blue magic even without being immbilized.

Unless you're already running away (and people love to whine if you run), you will get hit by most physical spells.

[Urteil]

No, you're not. It's extremely easy to get hit by blue magic even without being immbilized.

Unless you're already running away (and people love to whine if you run), you will get hit by most physical spells.

Okay, then you are doing it wrong, its easy to hit you without being immobilized. If you come to Phoenix once the apocalypse is over I'll be more than happy to teach you how.

If you are in melee range within 5-7 yalms and smacking somebody with a close range weapon. It is impossible to run away and both melee someone. Monks reverse guard, and their are ways to inhibit movement and increase it.

Running away is when somebody leaves the engagement range, when you forcibly sheathe your weapon while staring at their backside.

So let them whine, they are playing blue mage, and have bind, gravity, and both elemental forms of sleep. In AoE and single target flavors. Maybe they should learn how to use the arrow keys on their keyboard before worrying about PvP.

[Alhanelem]

Okay, then you are doing it wrong, its easy to hit you without being immobilized.Therefore I'm not "doing it wrong" ? You're right, it is easy to hit people without them being immobilized. That's one of the things that makes BLU strong.


If you are in melee range within 5-7 yalms and smacking somebody with a close range weapon. It is impossible to run away and both melee someone.Exactly the problem. But if you are a melee and you run away, you can't get TP to weapon skill, unless you're SAM or /SAM or you're DNC.

Running away is when somebody leaves the engagement range, when you forcibly sheathe your weapon while staring at their backside.Running away is running away. There's no funny fancy definition. Nobody likes it when you fidget around turn and run, even if it's not out of engagement range.

Fidgeting and breaking target lock and running through the guy are "legal" tactics, but it just drives people crazy and then they don't want ot play anymore. I've had a fair few people stop doing ballista because they couldn't stand me and other people doing that. Seperate issue from balance, of course, but worth mentioning.

[Mordanthos]

Man PVP is a stupid idea for this title. Look at the problems u have when ur riding an enemies ass while they are moving,and the game still tells you they are too far away even though you are thoroughly humping them. Melee jobs would be at a huge disadvantage, easily being killed by an annoying lil bastard who just keeps moving and putting a dot on them or some crap. PVP bad idea for FF, dont improve on PVP, make PVP go away completely. There is no way to balance PVP in this type of game, NINJA would beat everything with shadows, and everyone and there mother would PVP ninja sub so no one dies anyways. Or the above problem happens where melee are riding a characters ass but its telling them they are too far away. I vote NO

[Faule]

That's funny.

/sprint moar.

[Henihhi]

Lol one of my old friends used to have this in his bazaar comment, and it still makes me laugh every time i ballista

In Case of NINJA /break glass <thundaga3>

[Flunklesnarkin]

Need a hardcore server like on diablo 2

you die.. your character gets deleted >:U

[Alhanelem]

and the game still tells you they are too far away even though you are thoroughly humping them.Obviously you've never done Ballista. Melee range is slightly increased so that you can still hit people who are running.


make PVP go away completely.Yeah, we should remove stuff because you don't like it.

features shouldn't be removed just because person X or Y doesn't like them. There are people who like it, therefore it should be made as enjoyable as possible for those poeple. There are many ways to enjoy FFXI. You enjoy it your way, let other people enjoy it theirs.

[Urteil]

If you're standing still near a Blue Mage and dying, the problem is very simple. Stop doing it, otherwise spells like gravity and bind would not exist.

Movement, and the ability to kite/move is a very powerful asset in PvP. Am I supposed to tell Black Mages to not kite my Dark Knight? Red Mages using a staff setup as well.

Running away is when you turn tail and run, not when I'm in your face beating you with a close range weapon.

If one can't melee a moving target, then don't PvP.

[Urteil]

Running away is running away. There's no funny fancy definition. Nobody likes it when you fidget around turn and run, even if it's not out of engagement range.

Fidgeting and breaking target lock and running through the guy are "legal" tactics, but it just drives people crazy and then they don't want ot play anymore. I've had a fair few people stop doing ballista because they couldn't stand me and other people doing that. Seperate issue from balance, of course, but worth mentioning.

These people need to learn how to use the directional keys for their character. I quickly got the hang of it when I turned in my adventuring coupon. You used to be able to find them on the AH, if they still existed it would be nice for people who still can't do this to go pick up a few. It might even teach them how to use the map functions and maybe the real problem is they can't target PC/NPC's.

Aha. Thats it.

Either way I don't think they exist on the AH anymore so all these unfortunate people are out of luck. Its a shame.

[svengalis]

Somehow i don't think enough people care about pvp for it to be worth fixing.

Because it sucks right now! If they were to put more effort into and make it fun and rewarding more people would be into it.

[Urteil]

Therefore I'm not "doing it wrong" ? You're right, it is easy to hit people without them being immobilized. That's one of the things that makes BLU strong.

I meant, its easy to hit /you/. This problem seems to be peculiar to you.

I was being a bit of a jerk, I apologize.

However you are correct in that Blue Mages are not affected by the capping of damage on their magic. Their debuffs are also encoded differently completely circumventing most resistance traits and gear affecting it.

^ This is the real problem.

Never the less they are very beatable.

[Dauntless]

Would love a better pvp system. I find the Brenner sign up system simpler but I hate that you're penalized for gearswapping. That isn't a problem in Ballista, but the sign-ups are awful.

[Urteil]

Would love a better pvp system. I find the Brenner sign up system simpler but I hate that you're penalized for gearswapping. That isn't a problem in Ballista, but the sign-ups are awful.

You are penalized in both.

I agree that you should be able to sign up for Ballista (Ghelshba) with Gil at this rate, and for them to please remove the OM matches from the Brenner schedule.

Menu's could be streamlined, but menu's in FFXI suck anyway.

[Dauntless]

You are penalized in both.

I agree that you should be able to sign up for Ballista (Ghelshba) with Gil at this rate, and for them to please remove the OM matches from the Brenner schedule.

Menu's could be streamlined, but menu's in FFXI suck anyway.

Hmm perhaps my memory is foggy but I fondly recall being able to gearswap in Ballista, although I mainly did the sign-up Ballista held in Ru'Lude Gardens. Ah well, you're probably right.

[Harukusan]

Just because there are ways of dealing with something, it doesn't mean there's an imbalance. it its *more difficult* on average to counter a BLU than it is to counter most other jobs. It doesn't mean you CAN'T counter it, but it requires more skill and effort on the non BLU's part. That's when you can identify an imbalance. Something doesn't have to be unbeatable to be imbalanced. It's not a crippling, staggering imbalance, but it's enough of a problem to notice.

You just contradicted yourself... The fact that BLU is not unbeatable means that it is not overpowered and therefore there IS a balance to it. If you haven't found the way to create that balance yourself, then it's obvious your problem is your lack of forethought to a typical strategy that a BLU would follow.

I challenge ANY BLU to take me on, I will prove that you are likely weak. I know that I may not win every challenge. If I did, a bunch of people would say there is an "imbalance that exploits BLU's weak points." And that would be called a contradiction.

I challenge every and all people to explain their point or prove to me that there is a problem with the way things are. But don't get disappointed when I KICK YOUR ASS.

[Vyiv]

What's with all this talk about "balance"? It seems as though the primary reason why people complain about the "balance" of the game is because the general misunderstanding that Ballista is based on "one on one duels." Perhaps the job "randomness" during official matches skews the game to favor one team (i.e. one team with a RDM and the other without). True, that happens all the time and offsets the so-called "balance" of the game. However, as mentioned several times before, Ballista involves strategy, which most people don't apply. There are still ways around it, and even if you don't win the match, at least put in some effort and make it a good game.

That job "randomness" during official matches is what makes the game fun. There's no definite way to predict who will be on your team, as the Herald shuffles the teams with the "auto-balance" feature, which isn't always successful (as in the RDM example). That "randomness" is one aspect of the game that makes it fun and unique. However, there are ways to form further "balance"—so to speak.

Another "version" of Ballista that our Ballista community plays is Diorama. I would say that the typical misunderstanding of Diorama being a "colosseum" reserved only for "duels" is quite prevalent amongst the general public. As mentioned by both Urteil and Harukasan, Ballista can be synonymous to chess.



... I enjoy the slower pace FFXI provides, where many battles are like a game of chess...


I like to picture Ballista as a sort of version of chess.

That kind of thinking is what we need. Of course, in a game of chess, both sides have the same pieces, and in which case, our Ballista community forcefully organizes the participants' jobs to mirror each other—even subjobs are mirrored—to eliminate that "randomness."

For instance, in this screenshot, from left to right, we have SAM/WAR, WAR/SAM, MNK/WAR, RNG/SAM, RDM/BLM, and WHM/SCH.
http://vyiv.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/forum_post_image_016.png

We typically play games of 5:5 (with the "auto-balance" shuffle feature), but if more people show up, we can extend it to 6:6. Despite the turnouts, we never exceed 6:6. The usual job setup for a 5:5 includes 2 healers and 3 front line jobs. In the case of 6:6, either an extra healer or DD can be added. It really depends on the job availability of the participants. These events are usually hosted 1-3 times a week during JP hours, but if we have more NA participants, we can surely host our own in-house games like such.

So what about the "balance"? What "improvements" do we need? A better question yet, when was the last time that anyone here played legit Ballista? I don't want to hear any "one on one" nonsense either. What sort of "gain" or "reward" do we get out of all this? We simply play for fun. That's the way Ballista is and should be. The game is fine the way it is. Moreover, the Ballista community is still strong today, but you'll just have to find [valid] sources to stay updated. People can complain, preach, and cry all they want while my friends and I will be enjoying our Ballista on Lakshmi.

[Alhanelem]

The fact that BLU is not unbeatable means that it is not overpowered Um, no, there's no contradiction. "Not unbeatable" does not mean "balanced." Blu is "Harder to beat," not "unbeatable."

[Harukusan]

Well said, Vyiv. You make me want to sign over to Lakshmi after this pointless server merger that will occur in the near future. I'll just have to wait and see what Ragnarok is like before I make that decision.

Alhanelem: you've made some good points earlier and you've said certain things that make my head hurt. I'm almost ready to give up my belief that you ever actually played Ballista legitimately.

[Vyiv]

To further inform the uninformed, Bis, a well known Japanese Ballista player, used to conduct research to keep track of the cross-server Ballista population and occurrences with multiple mules and communication through friends. Unfortunately, he quit a while ago, leaving us with his population chart during late August of 2010:
http://vyiv.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/bisserverchart082410.png?w=517&h=745

He took those last cross-server statistics during an anarchic Ballista time, so I would say that even that chart is not completely accurate. Despite that, it provided us a basic idea how the Ballista population spread was at the time. Cross-server Ballista players immigrated to Lakshmi in packs (my group from Siren included) for several reasons, but I won't go into too much detail here. When I server transferred to Lakshmi in mid-October, there were a few other servers, primarily Gilgamesh and Sylph, that were fairly populous, but even those players immigrated to Lakshmi, as well. Currently, Lakshmi's Ballista population is undoubtedly the largest, which is a controversial matter, I would say. Nevertheless, I can guarantee that the Ballista community is still holding strong.

A few friendly notes for anyone who's interested in Lakshmi Ballista—or rather the current Ballista situation as a whole:

1) The Ballista player these days are insanely skilled, so it would require a lot of effort, devotion, and sacrifices to catch up. When I say sacrifices, I mean sacrifices. Come on, if a guy keeps track of cross-server Ballista demographics, he has to be hardcore.

2) Understand that the entire Ballista community is practically Japanese. There are only a couple of us NA players within the Japanese sea of Ballista. In such case, people will need to understand that the JP treat the game like a religion and need adapt to "their" game. I'm just going to quote my own blog entry on this one:

"Most NA perceive Ballista as WoW or any other hardcore PK’ing game, but it’s far from that. It’s a game that requires teamwork and scoring—almost like a virtual sport. Instead of promoting good sportsmanship, the NA bring “PK’ing ethics” into Ballista. Because of the typical NA style of play, which may include cursing, vile-mouthing, or even the absence of skill, the JP tend to belittle, scorn, and show little to no respect toward foreign players."

I'm sure that we see disrespect amongst NA players all the time. For example, given two "good" NA players, they would say things like, "lol u suck" or "i fucking own u" without acknowledging each other's skill. On the contrary, given two "good" JP players, they might insult each other but—at the very least—will acknowledge the other's skill. The bottom line is that Ballista is just a friendly competition, not some bloody war.

Anyway, those are some things to consider if anyone is serious about returning to Ballista.

[Sovereign]

seriously, fuck PvP.

That's the absolute largest downside to Warcraft in my opinion, is the world PvP they've got going on over there. You cant even turn the shit off, cause it just turns itself back on when you enter certain areas. I cant even explain the amount of time I've wasted porting into an area while questing only to be ganked by like 6 other players and have to spend the next five minutes finding my corpse. It's retarded on all levels.

Now, if you could completely turn off PvP, that'd be a different story. You cant attack other players, and they cant attack you. Grats on being able to go about your PvE business without interruption. Oh right... FFXI totally did that by making PvP zone specific. God I love this game.

Now I guess there are enough people interested in PvP that working changes into the system could be beneficial. I really liked the idea of Ballista, and the idea of nation versus nation PvP for conquest control over zones. It'd be cool to have a reason to participate in team oriented PvP. But it definitely needs to be something you choose to do, rather than something that can just happen to you.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You need to keep in mind that thit is a coop game, now a faction game. In layman's terms, we're not WoW.

[Alhanelem]

But it definitely needs to be something you choose to do, rather than something that can just happen to you. I can assure you, no one in the Ballista community wants free-for-all PvP, or any kind of PvP that isn't opt-in voluntary. We just want what we have now to be tweaked and improved as necessary, both to improve the experience and increase popularity.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I can assure you, no one in the Ballista community wants free-for-all PvP, or any kind of PvP that isn't opt-in voluntary. We just want what we have now to be tweaked and improved as necessary, both to improve the experience and increase popularity.Right, but this is still a game that wsa design to work together, not kill each other. It's just not a viable concept and dead ballista proves it.

[Alhanelem]

you've made some good points earlier and you've said certain things that make my head hurt. I'm almost ready to give up my belief that you ever actually played Ballista legitimately. I've played ballista as often as possible since it's release. I'm sorry that you for some reason don't believe that; I can't figure out why, but whatever, there's nothing I can do about that. Just because you think balance is fine and I don't, doesn't mean that I haven't spent many hours doing ballista.

I'm not sure what's making your head hurt- Things don't have to rise to the level of "impossible to beat" for there to be a possible balance problem. Balance is not absolute- perfectly balancing games is virtually impossible. There will always be some minor issues. Some of which I have mentioned previously have actually been addressed, if indirectly (e.g. PUP getting KOed no longer screws him over for 1/3 of the match thanks to new ability added last update). BLU I feel is one of those minor issues. I quite simply feel it has a bit of an edge that makes it more tricky to deal with than any other job. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, just a problem.


Right, but this is still a game that wsa design to work together, not kill each other. And you DO work together in ballista. Ballista is not a free for all, and teams with no cooperation will lose. This is also why Ballista is designed like a sport or minigame. You're not "killing eachother." It's more like tackling the other guy in football. It's a completely viable concept and the fact that there still exists a ballista community proves it. We, like anyone else, treat it as a sideshow, but it's a side show we enjoy and should not be denied. Games do not have to PvP only to have PvP.

[Teishi]

We

@__@

treat it as a sideshow,

@______@;



BLU I feel is one of those minor issues. I quite simply feel it has a bit of an edge that makes it more tricky to deal with than any other job. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, just a problem.

Not going to try to argue about balance. But one of things I find really fun about ballista is when things aren't "balanced". With strong (=smart) players, that "imbalance" just becomes part of the strategy(working together to cancel out that "imbalance").

If your server has some great blue mage that is dominating the scene, you should talk more with your fellow teammates about dealing with that person as a group.

[Faule]

I would have a more compassion for those sharing their views against FFXI's PVP system if they remotely had a solid argument. But they don't, so I don't.

[Dauntless]

Man PVP is a stupid idea for this title. Look at the problems u have when ur riding an enemies ass while they are moving,and the game still tells you they are too far away even though you are thoroughly humping them. Melee jobs would be at a huge disadvantage, easily being killed by an annoying lil bastard who just keeps moving and putting a dot on them or some crap. PVP bad idea for FF, dont improve on PVP, make PVP go away completely. There is no way to balance PVP in this type of game, NINJA would beat everything with shadows, and everyone and there mother would PVP ninja sub so no one dies anyways. Or the above problem happens where melee are riding a characters ass but its telling them they are too far away. I vote NO

False. As a DRG/SAM I spent most of my time back in the day pvping. There are only a few jobs that I couldn't beat and they are: BLU, RDM, and PLD/RDM

The BLM sleep/nuke method is not nearly as effective in pvp as you may imagine (same goes for RNG shadowbind kite method). Nin shadows and eva are a pain but by no means impossible to beat.

A few adjustments and pvp will be an enjoyable experience for every job.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a useless job in pvp. I have gotten my ass handed to me by WHM/NINs before. ; ;

[Alhanelem]

There are only a few jobs that I couldn't beat and they are: BLU,What a shocking suprise :p

RDMs and PLDs are the two toughest to kill, but not as hard to survive against. Two PLDs 1v1ing eachother can last indefinitely :D

WHM is a job you never see people fight with (outside of the classic white mage burn party from years past), but I've never understood why- They can actually be pretty strong if you gear for it, and you're still able to cure. fighting WHMs are a suprising threat in Ballista. It's one of the fun things about playing it- you often see a lot of unexpected combinations that you don't see in PvE.

[Zebra]

now, to attract more players, allow people to switch gear without getting stunned for 10+ seconds and it would be great, that's all that needs to be done to ballista and brenner, and it would be twice as appaeling and fun, jobs unbalanced? gearswaps fixes that pretty easy.

one of the main reasons people dont enjoy pvp in this game is just because your not allowed to switch gears in it, i used to be a big fan of ballista, but it just gets plain out boring having to switch gear if your fighting x job, to end up being paralyzed for 10~ seconds.

it's too annoying to be fun. we spend hours after hours to obtain the gear we have today, we should be able to play our jobs as we are used to, even in ballista.

[Coldbrand]

False. As a DRG/SAM I spent most of my time back in the day pvping. There are only a few jobs that I couldn't beat and they are: BLU, RDM, and PLD/RDM

The BLM sleep/nuke method is not nearly as effective in pvp as you may imagine (same goes for RNG shadowbind kite method). Nin shadows and eva are a pain but by no means impossible to beat.

A few adjustments and pvp will be an enjoyable experience for every job.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a useless job in pvp. I have gotten my ass handed to me by WHM/NINs before. ; ;

WHM/NIN won the JP that international ballista tournament. You can't really kill them.

[Xilk]

Level 76+ all bst brenner was pretty fun... uncapped bst might become a real contender. enfeebling is pretty much mandatory to get away from them. With the acc, attack and enhanced movement speed many of them have... you have 3~6 hits before and you are dead. I'm guessing 6 for a high hp/def pld... Any mage is dead in 3. And they are good an interrupting spellcasting... running is futile as they don't stop hitting while running, so master can run away while pet destroys someone.
I think PLD would lose out to bst now.

rdm/nin probably still rip up bst. a well placed enfeeble + fast cast means the pet can be enfeebled out of the fight quickly.

blu can too ofcourse, if they are ready for it..
In general however, harder to land spells on bst main when they are running away and you can't nuke the pet down very quickly when they all have 4~5k hp.. and you have 1.5k at best.

[Kashel-Sylph]

now, to attract more players, allow people to switch gear without getting stunned for 10+ seconds and it would be great, that's all that needs to be done to ballista and brenner, and it would be twice as appaeling and fun, jobs unbalanced? gearswaps fixes that pretty easy.

one of the main reasons people dont enjoy pvp in this game is just because your not allowed to switch gears in it, i used to be a big fan of ballista, but it just gets plain out boring having to switch gear if your fighting x job, to end up being paralyzed for 10~ seconds.

it's too annoying to be fun. we spend hours after hours to obtain the gear we have today, we should be able to play our jobs as we are used to, even in ballista.

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

[Xilk]

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

yep, i thought this was a good Idea and agreed to it when I saw you post it.

[Harukusan]

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

That's been brought up several times already. Fighting outside Ballista is a nice idea, I would want it available as an option. As for the penalties, I agree it sucks, but the fact that you blink when you swap gear isn't the issue. The issue with that is when you blink, the person fighting you loses target from you and would have to disengage to reset it, otherwise it is a real pain in the ass for them to use abilities on you. Sounds nice? Not really, people would exploit that all day if they didn't get penalized for it. So no to gear swapping still. Unless they fix blinking without using third party tools it'll always be this way.

However, if there was an option to duel outside of Ballista/Brenner, there technically probably wouldn't be any set rules other than you can only attack the people involved. I imagine gear swapping might be allowed with that, but you never know. It's SE.

[Teishi]

Alright, I just can't take it anymore. If you want to play PVP, it exists on lakshmi server. Come over and do your best. 60-cap is packed here. If you are even mediocre... we'd be impressed. 90% of the people that migrate here are awful and move back after the 3 months are over. If you are serious about PVP, move to lakshmi. Nothing else to say. Goodbye./

[Harukusan]

Alright, I just can't take it anymore. If you want to play PVP, it exists on lakshmi server. Come over and do your best. 60-cap is packed here. If you are even mediocre... we'd be impressed. 90% of the people that migrate here are awful and move back after the 3 months are over. If you are serious about PVP, move to lakshmi. Nothing else to say. Goodbye./

That sounds great, but I'm not really a fan of capped... anything... If that's all you guys do is 60 cap then screw it, I'll be happy with what I have.

[Anela]

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

OK, viable, as long as there is something in the menu system that I can chose/click that allows me to never see, nor have to react to, a duel request/challenge. Otherwise, it could get very annoying, very quickly.

[Urteil]

Alright, I just can't take it anymore. If you want to play PVP, it exists on lakshmi server. Come over and do your best. 60-cap is packed here. If you are even mediocre... we'd be impressed. 90% of the people that migrate here are awful and move back after the 3 months are over. If you are serious about PVP, move to lakshmi. Nothing else to say. Goodbye./

Cap rhymes with crap.

[Alhanelem]

I would much rather there be enough people playing ballista that you wouldn't need to buy a server transfer to do it.

And level caps suck.

[Dale]

PVP on this game is actually really fun.

The main problem with it, and why not more people do it - is because it's not very rewarding and is mostly just a waste of gil. If they made it more worthwhile to do you'd see more people doing it.

[Odintius]

Never really like pvp with or without rewards just me though :P

[Urteil]

THE REWARD IS THE BATTLE.

THE CONQUEST OF THE SPIRIT.

THE HUMAN FORM ERUPTING IN BURNING MANLY DIGITAL PASSION.


HRRRRNGGG.



....The screams.

And the dirty sand, in your underwear, after a weapon skill.

[Laraul]

PvP requires team based play. Most people seem to treat it as one on one... and it doesn't work that way since the player position is determined client side. An enemy monster will stay in one location when engaging you. A PC will not. If you are a melee type job, your opponent simply needs to get as close to you as possible then constantly move out your line of sight, giving you a lot of "can not see PLAYER" messages...

There is Pankration or w/e it's named... and ballista and brenner both work well. The problem is players don't get any reward for winning.

[CrystalWeapon]

*Joke suggestion* Since it's hard to tell sincerity in plain text.

How about a mini-game version of PvP where both groups are tossed into an oldschool turn based battle. No running in circles, no cheap tricks, just one party vs another in classic combat.

[Odintius]

add a jump function to /face palm :P

[CrystalWeapon]

add a jump function to /face palm :P

lol.

I think the emotion /facepalm, and an animation for /slap would be nice.

[Dauntless]

SE seems to stray away from PVP because I saw an interview about FFXIV that the JP player base greatly dislikes pvp.

[Alhanelem]

PvP requires team based play. Most people seem to treat it as one on one... and it doesn't work that way since the player position is determined client side.It's more about how classes in FFXI have some amount of synergy with eachother. It's not like WoW where every class has all the basic tools they need to survive without any support. Preists may be top of the line healers for instance, but they also have many effective damage and support abilities. Every class in WoW stands on its own, whereas some FFXI jobs only really show their stuff when there are other people around. A good team fight in Ballista is way more exciting than in WoW, where team fights usually become extremely spammy where basically the two groups are standing outside of a circle I refer to as the "death zone" where everyone is spamming their spells and attacks. WoW has much more emphasis on the individual where FFXI is centered around groups.

One isn't inherently better than the other and I'm not bashing WoW here. FFXI and WoW can both have enjoyable PvP, but the style of each is very, very different from each other. 1v1 just isn't very interesting in FFXI, but a 6v6 team fight is very exciting.

[Amanie]

this discussion makes me miss ballista alot. damn phoenix and its lack of ballista interest!!! my daggers crave blood and i want to dance on the bodies i leave behind

[Tsukino_Kaji]

THE REWARD IS THE BATTLE.

THE CONQUEST OF THE SPIRIT.

THE HUMAN FORM ERUPTING IN BURNING MANLY DIGITAL PASSION.


HRRRRNGGG.



....The screams.

And the dirty sand, in your underwear, after a weapon skill.That's not sand.

[Anela]

For those that want PvP, I hope SE is able to adjust the system, or create one that will meet your desires better.

Please remember that there are those of us that play this game that feel no desire to go PvP outside of what already exists, if at all.

Personally, I feel no need or desire to "prove" myself. If you think you play better than I, I have no argument. You win.. heh.. The only place I "prove" myself is in battles against mobs. That is enough for me.

I have found it entertaining to participate in Ballista occasionally. This has been with friends and LS mates. It wasn't about who was better than who, rather, it was testing strategies for upcoming Boss battles. Yes, you can actually do that to a degree.

Best of luck finding a PvP system that satisfies your needs..

[Alhanelem]

Please remember that there are those of us that play this game that feel no desire to go PvP outside of what already exists, if at all.
And please remember that we aren't necessairly looking for something new. We just want what's there to be fixed up some, and possibly offer some better incentives for "on the fence" people to participate.

(And as you did mention, I also like how ballista can be used to see how things would work when used against a monster, where you cant normally see the status effects and such affecting it.)

[annewandering]

Right now we need a PvP off game say in here. How about it SE? ^^