New staves vs Magians?

[Magnus]

Hello,

I am a returning player and i had a few Magians done to 90 (Ice, Lightning, ect) for damage, but after returning i see staves like Atinian Staff..

My question: Are the trial staves even worth continuing to 99? it does not seem like it to me, so i just want to be sure before I start working on getting either, that i know which is better.

Please help me out.

[Tohihroyu]

The fully finished trial staves are fine (for T4 & 5 along with T3 -gas and -jas), the difference is only slight, I would just finish trials on your stronger nukes and the Atinian Staff for the rest, but the trial ones still have the long tedious trials that you pretty much have to solo. with Atinian Staff you save mp cause you can cast stone or stonega and do really high damage and save mp.

[Louispv]

Don't bother finishing the magians. On tier IV/V spells the difference is maybe 20 points a of damage, and you will never land the spell with a magian anyway. The enemies are level 120-130 ( minions) and level 140+ (bosses) so the magic acc+ on the new staves is far more important. A level 99 mage with a magian cannot land anything, while a level 117 mage with an atinian has no trouble at all.

[dasva]

I mathed it out awhile ago and it basically ended up being only the like 4/6 jas and 3/6 t5 where trial staffs won. And that wasn't taking into account possible resist. A single percent change in resistances could make atinian win on all. And well atinian has enough macc to litterally go from floored macc to capped and then some. So if you aren't on something where you are super super super overcapping on macc trial staffs are going to kill your land rate

[FaeQueenCory]

I mathed it out awhile ago and it basically ended up being only the like 4/6 jas and 3/6 t5 where trial staffs won. And that wasn't taking into account possible resist. A single percent change in resistances could make atinian win on all. And well atinian has enough macc to litterally go from floored macc to capped and then some. So if you aren't on something where you are super super super overcapping on macc trial staffs are going to kill your land rate
Even the 115 gives crazy Macc... way more than the +35Macc that the 99 magian staves can give you.
Before the adjustment to Macc with iLvs, Atinian wasn't absolute, cause it only had 40 iirc... But now? Dear god... now the only benefit to the magian staves is... for smn.
SMN has pretty much the only magian staves worthwhile anymore. (well and Arka IV too)
Though I think Apajamas II for the recast reduction might still be good for SCHs...
I think you can cap recast without it easily... especially for sch's now with the RF1 boots... and all the haste on gear...

So... Apajamas II, Arka IV, SMN staves.
Anything else: 115 or Atinian... Or best: Mythic. (the 119 mythics are sooooooooooo goooooooood for magery)

[dasva]

Well even for smns magian isn't that great. Well the -perp ones anyways. I guess you can still use the pdt one if you don't need any perp on your weapon. But I mean nowadays you can overcap -perp by like 15 or something lol. And skirimish staff is -5 to all.

As far as minus recast last I remember they never really found a cap.... but there comes a point when lowering your recast doesn't really help anyways. But talking about that and maybe using atinian instead always results in long drawn out arguments about how useful it might be to have a 3 seconds recast instead of 5 for stun lol.

For the really hardcore brds they might get staffs for -cast/recast on some songs. And blms to cast a little faster lol. Even cure staff is a tad outdated since every mage except blm I think that can use it can cap without it in just 4 slots. Allowing you to use something like chat staff for even more cure power. Plus even if you still needed cure pot on weapon tamaxi club and genbu shield kinda killed that. Still better off than other magian weapons

[Draylo]

The magian dmg staves are still good for -casting time, but that's assuming you will be casting the highest tier spells that actually have decent spellcasting time.

[FaeQueenCory]

Well even for smns magian isn't that great. Well the -perp ones anyways. I guess you can still use the pdt one if you don't need any perp on your weapon. But I mean nowadays you can overcap -perp by like 15 or something lol. And skirimish staff is -5 to all.
Actually... This is a common misconception when it comes to smn and the magian staves.
Because what makes them still second only to Nirvana (that would be #1: Nirvana, #2 Magian, #3 Uffrat/+1)... is not that they cap perp cost. It's that they cap perp cost AND BP timer.
To be a good smn, you need to cap 3 things: 500 skill, perp cost, AND BP timer.
And the fact that the magian staves cap 2/3 vital stats for a smn... makes them the former best staves in the game. (the fact that pre-iLv Nirvana ONLY reduced perp cost made the Mythic a macro-only piece... But the 119 Nirvana is more of a fulltime piece... and the stats on the RF1... it's much easier to cap BP timer without the need of the magian staves which lets Nirvana become the BEST staff for SMN again. Cause after the cap was raised past 75, the magian staves offered more for the SMN than Nirvana alone did. But even though the stats on the RF1 allow for Nirvana to be fulltimed.... that relegates the Magian staves to only second tier... for they are still miles ahead of the Uffrats.)


As far as minus recast last I remember they never really found a cap.... but there comes a point when lowering your recast doesn't really help anyways. But talking about that and maybe using atinian instead always results in long drawn out arguments about how useful it might be to have a 3 seconds recast instead of 5 for stun lol.

For the really hardcore brds they might get staffs for -cast/recast on some songs. And blms to cast a little faster lol. Even cure staff is a tad outdated since every mage except blm I think that can use it can cap without it in just 4 slots. Allowing you to use something like chat staff for even more cure power. Plus even if you still needed cure pot on weapon tamaxi club and genbu shield kinda killed that. Still better off than other magian weapons
I believe recast caps at -50%.
Though that could very well be wrong.
But if it DOES has a cap, which I'm sure it must.
It would either be at 50% or at 80% since those seem to be the caps for "haste" effects that SE likes using.

But yeah, Atinian and even the 115 give SO MUCH Macc that they might just be better than apajamas depending on the rest of your sch gear.
And with the -8% (iirc) cast and recast time of the RF1 boots alone...
I think capping recast is pretty easy today.
(heck, getting 20% gear haste on mage jobs can be done without even trying nowadays!)

[dasva]

Actually... This is a common misconception when it comes to smn and the magian staves.
Because what makes them still second only to Nirvana (that would be #1: Nirvana, #2 Magian, #3 Uffrat/+1)... is not that they cap perp cost. It's that they cap perp cost AND BP timer.
To be a good smn, you need to cap 3 things: 500 skill, perp cost, AND BP timer.
And the fact that the magian staves cap 2/3 vital stats for a smn... makes them the former best staves in the game. (the fact that pre-iLv Nirvana ONLY reduced perp cost made the Mythic a macro-only piece... But the 119 Nirvana is more of a fulltime piece... and the stats on the RF1... it's much easier to cap BP timer without the need of the magian staves which lets Nirvana become the BEST staff for SMN again. Cause after the cap was raised past 75, the magian staves offered more for the SMN than Nirvana alone did. But even though the stats on the RF1 allow for Nirvana to be fulltimed.... that relegates the Magian staves to only second tier... for they are still miles ahead of the Uffrats.)

Oh I know that but the thing is capping bp timer hasn't been hard since they raised the lvl cap past 75. Right now without even touching weapons or rf1 you can hit -27... so they've kinda lost that luster. Heck you can cap with just relic +1 iirc lol. And as already explained capping perp is also rediculously easy. Now maybe if they finally lift the caps on bp timers. I mean no reason it can't be 30 seconds... increased mp cost will help keep things from being too OP unless you really pimp out your sets and such


I believe recast caps at -50%.
Though that could very well be wrong.
But if it DOES has a cap, which I'm sure it must.
It would either be at 50% or at 80% since those seem to be the caps for "haste" effects that SE likes using.
It used to cap at 50% but they lifted that awhile back when they started lifting alot of caps. No one has found a recast cap since then last I checked. You can check bg wiki for the testing on that. If there is one it's definitely higher than 80% though since you see people getting 4 second stun recasts and -80% would be 9 seconds. But the question becomes can you get a little bit more? Yes. Will it matter? Probably not.

[FaeQueenCory]

Oh I know that but the thing is capping bp timer hasn't been hard since they raised the lvl cap past 75. Right now without even touching weapons or rf1 you can hit -27... so they've kinda lost that luster. Heck you can cap with just relic +1 iirc lol. And as already explained capping perp is also rediculously easy. Now maybe if they finally lift the caps on bp timers. I mean no reason it can't be 30 seconds... increased mp cost will help keep things from being too OP unless you really pimp out your sets and such.
The problem with that... is if you decide to cap the BP using the body, legs, or head slot... you loose too much skill to make it worthwhile.
And if you're just flashing those pieces in for a second to adjust the timer before the BP goes off... that's a bunch of wasted inventory when a single staff provides the same boost and more.
The magian staves are still the absolute best for SMN because it frees up the rest of your slots to have actually worthwhile gear choices.
It is no different than Arka IV/Tamaxchi+Genbu/Sol for WHM. Sure, you CAN cap your cure potency with more smaller pieces everywhere.... or you could cap the majority of it in one piece and use the now free slots for more worthwhile gear choices.
In the case of SMN: +skill and -perp; for WHM: fast cast, +MP, refresh, -cure cast time, etc.

The magian staves remain the top for smn... The only thing better than them is 119 Nirvana. And that's mainly due to +2Lv. If it was JUST +40% BP dmg... Nirvana would have remained macro-only.
With two of the best pieces for SMN atm: Convoker's Horn and Summoner Bracers +2, you have a total of -11BPtimer. And because of that, this allows for Nirvana to be full timed.
But the reason why Nirvana is desirable to full time while Uffrat/+1 is NOT... is because Nirvana does more than just cap -perp.
Uffrat/+1 is potentially as good for a smn as the lv80 magian staves. (still have that random augmentation to deal with)
It also gives you +MAB... but Balsam exists and really is just... leagues ahead of Uffrat/+1... even Yaksomo's Pole is better than Uffrat's +MAB.
And the -11BPtimer only became standard last month... So while Uffrat/+1 has become not a complete PoS thanks to Convoker's Horn alone... It's still by no means anywhere near as good as a Magian stave is for SMN.
Just as how Tefnut's Wand can't compare to Arka IV or Tamaxchi for WHM.

[dasva]

Not really sure I get your reasoning. I'm going to start with the idea that this is a competent smn that starts bp in capped -bp timer and ends in whatever is best for that bp. I mean you are doing it with the staff for magical bps at the very least anyways. Your argument is inventory slots... which isn't the best of arguments but is not completely without merit so let's explore that. It takes 3 slots to cap -bp without staff and 2 with. So for bping it saves you 1 peice of gear. Then lets look at perp cost. Takes 3 slots to cap that without trial staff and with trial staff the same. Both can do it in 2 for carbuncle and and this is while maintaining max refresh gear. So having a trial staff will save us 1 other peices of gear in other slots which sounds great except each staff only works on 1 element so unless you plan on using less than 2 avatars you aren't saving anything. And if you use more you are actually using more inventory slots.

All you've really accomplished is slightly less gear swapping during the bp at what is most likely at the cost of invent space and alot of time spent making them if you haven't already. Of course it increase the amount of swaps you might do when you are smning more than one element in any given event. Which happens for buffs. I guess if you don't like doing big gear swaps I guess it's for you but not sure I'd declare them best when you can get the same functionality other ways. The whm cure arugment is different because other stats found in every slot that are very important at the same time that cure pot is important. Also Chat/light staff will beat it when you can get day and/or weather. While bp timer is only thing important while it is important and it wont effect your perp cost gearing

[FaeQueenCory]

It's about saving space. You cap perp and BP timer in one slot, you save inventory, you don't need to cheat with windower.
The magian staves are still the best for smn next to Nirvana because they do more than just ONE thing for you.

You need to cap 3 things as smn:
1) perp cost
2) BP timer
3) 500 skill

The magian staves are better than the uffrats because they cap 2/3 of the things you need.
(and now that there's a "free" Balsam, there is absolutely 0 reason to ever use Uffrats or Yaksomos anymore. ESPECIALLY not if the rumor is true about the latent being triggered by TP<100%... cause that's kinda the TP a smn has when they swap weapons.)

This is also why the Caller's Doublet +2 is better than a -perp aug Hagondes.
You cap perp AND 500 skill in one piece.
Again, Convoker's Horn/+1 is the best head piece for smn, because it caps 2/3 things in one piece.

BPtimer now caps at 40s thanks to the new sachets... The magian staves still out perform Uffrat because you're just swapping in Balsam/spark-117 for every magic BP.

It's all about the cycles smn gear goes through, with the magian staves, those are the idling staves, and without the need to swap any -BPtimer gear in, one saves precious macro space.
Unless they are cheating with third party software.
Cause that's technically cheating.

And while capping BPtimer IS easier today... That doesn't make the magian staves not worthwhile... because unless you have the ability to poop out a 119 Nirvana, the magian staves will be the best things for you.
SMN is an awkward class to gear for because it's not the simple intuitive gearing that all the other jobs are.
SMN should gear for the avatar and not themselves: BPtimer increases damage, skill increases wards and damage, and -perp increases longevity.
SMNs always want to use the fancy new gear that all the other jobs get... but we always relent after the sparkle wears off because the best gear we get is usually the gear we already had.
This is just a thing with the job that unless it's your main, you won't really experience it.
I mean... most ppl just use 1 avatar... and usually just Garuda at that.
So any point about Uffrats saving you space is lost.... because ppl just use Garuda.
And now that ppl have decided: "hey, lets mess up the pld and run's hate by dropping -jas and -ga3s on the naakuals"...
I never see SMNs in WKRs anymore... everyone's now BLM or SCH...
And I have to wonder about them....
Does messing up the hate and dying 500000000x give you good bayld/evaluations?

When a SMN dies in a WKR, there's no need to /heal.
A good SMN can continue to drop 5-8k BPs on the Naakuals even when weakened.... cause weakness only gimps a SMN's MP.

[dasva]

Your arguments boil down to magians are better if you are a gimp smn that uses only 1 avatar ever and is too lazy to use multiple maccros for 1 more peice of gear but not lazy enough to maccro all the other peices. For that very small subset of smns sure I will admit that magians are better in the same way using haste gear that happens to have ws stats on it are better for melees that only want to maccro 5 peices of gear for there ws instead of 6. For people who actually care about maximizing the job they are a waste of inventory space as well as time and effort to obtain them

As far as smn vs nuking jobs on wkr depends on what your goal is. smn might do more dps because of the hate thing but they wont hit as many types of action categories. And the last word I heard from the devs were that certain items are tied to certain types of actions and if you don't hit them you wont have any chance for that item at all and the more you do the better the chance. So taking dmg self healing along with the dmg is probably better for the individual. Also going out and nuking a bunch till you die then raising up and doing it again then resting for 5 minutes for double weakness requires less effort than riding BP timers the whole fight.