Feedback to SE regarding WOEpath empys / coin weapons.

[Stompa]

:cool:

Question answered, thankyou.

[Fynlar]

jesus christ wall of text

Anyway, they won't. These coin weapons are far from being the only pieces of gear that have gotten shat on by Adoulin, for what it's worth.

It's taken this long just for them to *attempt* to make previously-relevant RMEs relevant again, not to mention that it's only at the behest of a HUGE outcry by the playerbase (they originally had no plans to do ANYTHING with RMEs and were perfectly content with letting them fall to Adoulinian obscurity) and we still aren't exactly certain yet that they'll compete and that they'll be relevant again.

What makes you think your never-really-relevant coin weapons will become suddenly relevant? From the very beginning they were designed to be inferior options.

As I said in the other thread, I would at least be thankful they are giving coin weapons SOME purpose by allowing you to use them to unlock the empy WS.

[Demon6324236]

In all honesty though they have made it clear in many posts that the idea of WoE weapons were specifically to give access to the WSs without giving you the real power of an Empyrean weapon. By allowing you to use a WoE weapon to fully unlock the WS, they see it as being a final step to the true realization of what those weapons were meant to be for.

I can understand to some extent why this is bad, but at the same time, I understand why its actually better this way. It allows the WS to scale anywhere, whatever, for every player. If a player only has access to level 106 gear, well, they can use the WS, and have a 106 weapon, if the person is using a 119 weapon, same deal. If they made a direct upgrade it would have some sort of requirement probably which would make it harder for some people, when the point of the weapons is to make the WS more accessible. If anything, I would say its even better this way for another reason too, rather than making them, say, 113, and all the power that comes with level 113, you can use it with anything, if they did a flat out upgrade you would outgrow it eventually and be weakening yourself or using a weaker weapon just for the sake of the WS, this way, that's avoided.

Really, I have said this all before, and I am sure you know my stance on it, but in reality I feel like your holding onto a basic weapon model which many others share as well as an item name, since those are the only 2 things lost by this update rather than the one you prefer. I think this path the simpler for everyone, but it is only my opinion.

[Demon6324236]

The post I was referring to was...


In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level).

The main line of importance being is underlined because it points out, the weapons are there for the WSs. They are not special weapons in their own right, weapons of legend or special power, only weapons which give access to a special WS. As I explained before, they are not NQ Empyreans, neither the Devs nor the Moogle programed by them refer to the WoE/Coin weapons as Empyrean weapons, the origins of the Empyrean title itself are the Devs and the Moogle, which is why it makes no sense to call them NQ Empyreans, their makers do not recognize them as such even, its a delusion of grandeur. They were made to supply the WS, originally through a decently powerful weapon, one of which has become outdated, their idea is to allow it to live on via unlocking the WS itself, and in all honesty, it makes sense.

You made no Empyrean, yet you are getting the same reward that any Empyrean (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Empyrean_Weapons) 90 wielder is getting, and if you look at the DMG amounts, Coin (http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Walk_of_Echoes_Weapons) 99 weapons not far off from those, so really, its fair to me.

[Fynlar]

Why the hell can't they patch my Woepath99s so they are as powerful as Forefronts.

The same reason they haven't and won't bother to patch elemental path magian weapons.

[Jerbob]

WoE path weapons may have been intended as a quicker way to access the weaponskills, but the fact that they were quite decent weapons in their own right (to say nothing of the time required to make them) means that using those initial intentions as a basis for deciding whether to upgrade them or not is flawed. As Stompa says, they aren't comparable to the "... of Trials" type weapons; those were exclusively designed to grant access to weaponskills, whereas WoE weapons are clearly designed to be useful as a primary weapon.

[Anjou]

Should just be happy that we'll be unlocking the weaponskill, then building the dang things is considered relevant. Honestly though, I don't wanna be main handing a sword with a dat model of Coral Sword when I could be using a bajesus strong Buramenk'ah which has a unique model -while- I have access to the empyrean WS.

[FaeQueenCory]

I can understand to some extent why this is bad, but at the same time, I understand why its actually better this way. It allows the WS to scale anywhere, whatever, for every player. If a player only has access to level 106 gear, well, they can use the WS, and have a 106 weapon, if the person is using a 119 weapon, same deal. If they made a direct upgrade it would have some sort of requirement probably which would make it harder for some people, when the point of the weapons is to make the WS more accessible. If anything, I would say its even better this way for another reason too, rather than making them, say, 113, and all the power that comes with level 113, you can use it with anything, if they did a flat out upgrade you would outgrow it eventually and be weakening yourself or using a weaker weapon just for the sake of the WS, this way, that's avoided.
BIU part: Um... isn't that how it always was?
The coin weapons are cute... they give you access to the EmpyWSs... but there just isn't a comparison between them and a full Empyrean piece.
They always were a heck of a lot easier to make IMO: 50 seals? pshaw! I got >400 of them just from leveling a couple jobs from 75-99 in worm/bird pts. I don't even want to think how many ppl who go 30-99 have... >_>
And seeing as how all empys are like their Relic and Mythic counterparts... +30% full WS dmg.... that's crazy. (especially when you throw in gorgets and belts... dear Lord... that +30% is the only thing I worry about having them back with.)

So I agree too, the coin weapons were never even meant for a second to be stand ins for an Empy....
They were always just neat little toys... much like the latent: relic WS weapons... a cute little plaything... a cookie to tide you over until dinner...

Even if iLvfication was ever considered... I seriously doubt we'd see anything greater than iLv100.
115? 113? 106? ridiculous. They were never even that good before iLvs.
(that "that" is marginally ambiguous... it refers to the previously stated numerals; it is not a ubiquitous "that" that belittles them to worthlessness.)

EDIT:

Yeah but magians are way easier to build, and cost a lot less too. Are you're serious?
Yeah... maybe the +dmg and +Macc magian staves are easier...
I have an ArkaIII.
Arka. III.
I think there might be 4 other smns who have done that.
Because... Dear Lord....
The summon paths are probably the worst trials ever.
They've become a lot easier (ie more mobs that can be 1shot) thanks to the convocaller and dashavatara sachets... but by no means are the smn path magian trials less than your WoE paths.
If anything... I find the coin weapons a heck of a lot easier to build... Because all you have to do is deal with NM pop times and farming/buying some items.

TBH, I wouldn't have a problem if they had gone across the board and made all 99 magian weapons iLv100.
But don't think for a second that the WoE coin weapons aren't anything more than magian trial weapons that just let you use the empy WS.

[predatory]

Just make R/M/Es super easy to get like WoEs and say they were just designed for the ws you get from them, and problem solved. Oh wait they tried that, it didn't fly. If it didn't fly with R/M/Es then why should it fly with WoEs? Or is it because your pet weapon should be more important than someone else's pet weapon?

[Damane]

Just make R/M/Es super easy to get like WoEs and say they were just designed for the ws you get from them, and problem solved. Oh wait they tried that, it didn't fly. If it didn't fly with R/M/Es then why should it fly with WoEs? Or is it because your pet weapon should be more important than someone else's pet weapon?

difference between RMEs and WoE weapons is that RMEs are legendary weapons. So I dont feel any bit sorry that WoE only unlock WS. Thats how it should be. Relic holders didnt bitch back then either when Empys curbstomped them into the ground when abyssea came around. Neither did they bitch when dynamis was changed the way it made Relics easy to get.

I am sorry I dont see a problem with your time wasted, stuff changes. My Relic needed also more time and gil 6-7 years ago then now. Stuff changes, deal with it.

[Fynlar]

But even after they decided to make Woepaths basically supereasy to obtain after Nov 2013, they should have at least patched the finished 99 version to hit harder than Forefronts bayld weapons. Since those are easier to get than mercenary's knives even.

The reason for this is because these weapons are about as important to them as mercenary's knives are.

Like I said, even actual RMEs fell into this category too, until the playerbase outcry became too great to ignore.

[Demon6324236]

And seeing as how all empys are like their Relic and Mythic counterparts... +30% full WS dmg.... that's crazy.Umm... excuse me, what?

[Vasch]

This whole issue is best summed up by the children's book "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie."

If SE give WoE99s a boost, they'll ask for their 85/90 Emps to get buffed since those are the rough equivalent. If SE gives those a buff, they'll ask for magians to be buffed. Well, if magians get their buff, glowy VW weapons need them too! Wait! If those get a buff, the NQ versions need one as well! Huh? If SE is going to give that a buff, they need to give my Oynos dagger one too!

Just because you spent a substantial chunk of time on your weapon doesn't mean that it needs to be buffed. The Salvage 2 gear (for example) was only really top stuff for a few months. I spent several months with a friend grinding out all of the pieces for Monk and Samurai. Now, they all sit in my porter. If I get lucky and it pays off later? Great. For now, it sits.

[Demon6324236]

1 reasoned argument. SE said WoE weapons "were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills" which means that rather than upgrading the weapon which was implemented to let you use the WS, they can just unlock the WS to use with everything, and the same purpose is served.

[Randnum]

Eh, I would just like to add my support to Stompa, and note that this is just obvious, I as usual have little or no personal interest or benefit in the outcome, but I'll still 'stand in agreement'. Those have never been easy weapons to build, to add absolutely nothing to them is just ludicrous.

People who don't have the complaints are always going to be there, there were people who thought that outclassing RME completely was a good idea. But at the end of the day you have to remember SE needs to think of their players' feelings. They just DO.

And it does not harm game balance to go through and add some basic skill stats and damage to WoE weapons. If it keeps even 30 or 40 players from cancelling accounts in frustration, it's probably worth it.

As Stompa says, they at LEAST should not be worse than something you can pick up with nearly no effort at all. Even if you consider people strange and you don't agree with them, it doesn't mean as a company SE should just ignore everything. With Magian weapons you might be able to argue that they'd have to make more trials, or that they aren't unique enough compared to what is in the new expansion and is stronger anyway. You could even consider 'using your Magian weapon to get the new stronger iLvl weapon' to be your 'next Magian Trial'. But Forefront.

And yes, by that argument, you could consider 'Unlocking your WoE weapon' to be your next ultimate Trial in that. But there's one primary difference.

The main thing WoE weapons offer is damage and that WS. Magian weapons offer varying things.

If you need to wield a different weapon to do any of what's required to finish 'Unlocking your WoE weapon', and if you have to then acquire stronger weapons anyway to actually use the WS effectively, you shifted the entire dynamic.

[Demon6324236]

Why? Because we 'leveled up' and they could simplify it all. Your WoE 99s are the equal to other people's, including my, Empyrean 90s, which also unlock the WS only. We do not get an upgrade for an unfinished job, which is what an Empyrean 90 is, unfinished, we get to unlock it, I think that's fair in all honesty, just like I think your WoE unlocking is fair. There is little reason to upgrade a weapon like your saying, to balance it they would have to put the level of the weapons to 113, possibly lower, at which point they are nothing more than sentimental value weapons, used 'cause I wanna' even though they are weaker or just as strong as easier to obtain weapons, and if you have access to Delve boss gear, your definitely weakening yourself for it. There is no reason the Devs should need to spend time on it, your getting a fair deal already and instead of doing what they are you want them to also make a split path to upgrade the weapons themselves even though it need not be done and its purpose can be served with the current plan.

[zataz]

I am sorry I dont see a problem with your time wasted, stuff changes. My Relic needed also more time and gil 6-7 years ago then now. Stuff changes, deal with it.

i love it <,< this covers it all, as i can't wait for my excaliber to get a free boost. why dont they just do nothing and we accept that how did u put it things change so i guess u should deal with it.

[predatory]

1 reasoned argument. SE said WoE weapons "were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills" which means that rather than upgrading the weapon which was implemented to let you use the WS, they can just unlock the WS to use with everything, and the same purpose is served.

But did they say this after the fact, or did they say it originally? I mean irl you could make a multi-pronged knife thingy surely designed with murder in mind, and then claim it was designed to cut bread later on down the road, you're claim doesn't necessarily make it the truth

[Demon6324236]

I honestly don't know, I didn't look back years in the past when they were originally made, so I don't know what they said at that time specifically. I am going by what they are saying now since its the best I have to go off of. Everything they have said about WoE weapons since they mentioned them in May leads me to believe they wanted to let people use the WS without going all the way on the real Empyrean which is harder to make, which is why they exist.

[Zumi]

Coin weapons unlocking the empyrean are good enough. You can use these WS on 119 weapons you get from delve that seems good enough for me. Essentially you have the same thing as the coin weapons only now you can use empy ws on stronger weapons.

[Trumpy]

I think i am the only person in the world who would give 2 craps if they made something like mythics relics empys easier after i had made one the hard way. It would prolly empower me to make more of them for other jobs. Though i can totally understand if people were angry about that. The only thing i prolly would get angered bout would be them just handing them out, and by handing them out i mean like u go to npc and get them. If there was some form of effort required to me that isnt quite just handing them out.

[Damane]

I don't have a problem with them making Woepaths easier if thats what they have decided to do. I feel it didn't need making easier because WOE is too-weak now with delve gear people soloing fluxes afk pretty much. So Items are on sale and cheap to buy. So I didn't see the point of nerfing it further.

But that is not my problem. You didn't respond to my main point - they will not patch Woepaths in November just enough to give Woepaths the same base stats as Forefronts lolweapons. That is just an insult to me. Full stop.

I dont see a reason in upgradeing them honestly. Go unlock the WS -----> proceed to get a weapon with higher base dmg where you can use the WS on. upgradeing WoE weapons makes no sense, they have no unique stats on them.

[predatory]

Welcome to the new FFXI Stompa, in old ffxi 2+2 still equaled 4, but in this brave new game 2+2=22 and if people don't have a personal stake in something they'll blindly follow the devs just like lemmings over a cliff. IMO it should have been bayld weapons as the lowest tier, then elemental trial weapons and skirmish weapons on par with each other strengh wise, followed by woepaths and non-boss delve weapons, and on top you would have had Delve megaboss weapons and RMEs. A system like that would have made sense because it would have offered people choices based on how much work they actually wanted to put into their individual weapons, and of course it would have made for more variety of choices, but like most things with soa, se blew it, and expected us to be happy with it. Then of course you have to factor in the Lemmings who will sit idly by while something someone else worked hard on gets destroyed, as long as their pet thing is restored

[Demon6324236]

Except I am not watching someone's work be destroyed, I am watching someone else's work give them the same benefits they have gotten from it all along, just in a slightly different form.

[detlef]

It's not quite the same. I can see where Stompa is coming from to a degree. What if you were a Ryunohige owner and SE told you that you could transfer your Ryuno's traits into an Upukirex. The same option would be available for Gungnir and Rhongomiant. Would you like that or would you be upset? Personally, I wouldn't be happy. I would argue that the uniqueness of Ryuno should be preserved and Upu can take a hike.

However, in this case we're talking about WoE weapons and I feel like the weapons' purpose is simply to allow access to a weapon skill. No unique model. No aftermath. Just a weapon skill you can use. They're not unlike those fake relic weapons that drop in Scars areas. They aren't legendary weapons. They have sentimental value but they aren't on the same scale as level 99 RMEs and were never intended to be the best. I loved my Chauve-Souris but I knew that it wasn't forever when it was added into the game.

[Demon6324236]

It seems sort of obvious to me that Woepaths are just NQ/LQ Empys, because they followed the same exact weapon-building process as the HQ Abypath Empys, upto the Woe/Aby forkpoint, and both contained the same empyrean weaponskill.When you can show me a NPC or post from SE who recongnises them as Empyrean weapons, then we can have the debate on what they are, until then, the WoE weapons are not Empyreans, as no official source has dubbed them as such, rather the opposite, SE called them Coin weapons, specifically separating them from Empyreans.


But sadly with all the gear-snobs in the game (and the forums), always look down on solo effort by people who farmed Woepaths industriously for months and months.Look down on you? No, I just don't think that the weapons need to be upgraded. If I insulted you or your work on the basis you did not go on the path to create the actual Empyrean weapon, then you could say I look down on you, the same with what others are saying, but I haven't seen anyone here talk down to you because you took the WoE path.


Because said gear-snobs were lap-dancing on their LS leader, to get their HQ Aby Empy and then they can turn round and sneer at people who put in loads of work on Woepaths.You have such a stupidly clouded view of what people do to get their weapons. I made my Empyrean solo with the exception of the Abyssea stages, which I partially had help with from my GF, Neitiri in game, who was happy to help with it, as well as a few friends who volunteered. I did not do anything for any LS leader nor did I drag and force anyone to help me, nor did I make it for gloating, bragging, or taunting. I made my Empyrean to better my RDM, something I get quite the opposite reaction for, often being insulted that my only Relic and Empyrean were made for a 'worthless' job and made for something that a 'real RDM' would never do, melee.

My Almace has only ever hit 85, you know what that means? For the trials I did to get to the fork in the road between Coin and Empyrean, for the 50 Bria Helms I collected, for the 50 Sobek Skins I collected, I got nothing from it all. I will never get anything from it all unless I take mine to 90 by collecting my last 48 Apa Horns, even then, I do not believe I deserve to get an upgrade to ilevels, I do not believe I deserve any more than unlocking the WS, because its why I used the Sword. I did not use it for its super superior DMG rating, low delay, extra DEX, or anything else, I used it for the WS. Do I think of the sword as an accomplishment? Yes, I do, I soloed my last Bria and Sobek as a matter of worth, to prove to myself I was good enough to be worthy of it. I think of the sword as something special. But at the same time, I still accept I did not go all the way, I did not go beyond 85, and I will never go beyond 90 unless they change the requirements.

Why does all this matter? Because if I do not think I am worthy of having my level 90 Almace upgraded, what makes you think that I would agree that your WoE99, a weapon which has nearly the same stats DMG & Delay wise as a level 90 Almace, deserves to be? Better yet, why does your WoE99 deserve more than what a level 90 Empyrean gets? The fact of the matter is, I accept the reward I will get from my 90 Empyrean, I think it fair, because I know I didn't go the full route with it, I know I stopped halfway, and I think it equally fair I get nothing more than a WK from my Shamash, because I know I took the WoE path, rather than going the Empyrean path and getting an Ukonvasara. I think you get the wrong impression about who your arguing with on the matter, and for what reasons they say what they do.

[Demon6324236]

Actually SE only started calling them coin weapons very recently, post SOA, post iLvl, and did so to denigrate that weapon class. So that they wouldn't have to patch them. The previous team who actually designed WOE and empyrean weapons, never called the woepaths coin weapons.They also never called them Empyreans, your point?


The other blurb you spouted was just your own empirical evidence, ie. opinion ie. just chat.Yes, my experience, from what I have seen I am one of the people who have argued with you most on this subject so far as forums go, so I assume you include me in the group of so called 'gear-snob's who 'look down' on you. The thing is, your description doesn't fit me at all.


I have seen a woman get Twashtar 90 with zero effort, by just chatting on the Aby LS I was main WHM on for a year, she was "oh <nameofLSleader> lets go Skype this evening, I will wear my silky nightdress and blah blah blah oooh can we farm my empy first" and this LS leader put her empy at the top of the list, he was a drunken lech who basically a womaniser, and this woman played him like a mandolin. She was afk all the time on runs except when it was time to cast lots on her empy drops. I was the hard working WHM who was not allowed afk and when the mob died I could cast lot on WHM+2 items only. Why? Because I wasn't offering cybersex to the leader. And I've heard similar stories from a lot of LS. And this was in 2010, when I said "**** this I'm gonna build the Woepath empy instead."Ok so my example of people working for their weapons is disregarded, while your example of idiots leading a group of people to do stupid things should be the basis for which we judge those who disagree with you about your weapons being upgraded. To me, that sounds like what is being said here.


And once again, you have no problem with conquestpoints weapons being more powerful than an empyrean weapon that took me thousands of hours to solo. Despite them both being lvl99 weapons. If they were actually lvl 103 you wouldnt be able to equip them. The iLvl tag is just that, its a tag that SE decided to put on some weapons but not on others. My issue is they put it on forefronts and not on woepaths.The Empyrean weapons are being upgraded to be stronger than those weapons, in fact, level 99 Empyreans are being upgraded to level 119.

[Demon6324236]

The only items in the game with ilevels are from Adoulin, WoE weapons are not from Adoulin, ergo, WoE weapons do not have ilevels.

[Randnum]

This is so incredibly basic to understand, and while I understand that some may not agree, I ask that they make another effort to understand.

This is about what the player thought they were doing when they invested their time.

When a player sets out to make an Empyrean weapon they think "I am going to work hard to make a really powerful weapon with unique stats, great damage and a WS, one of the best weapons in the game bar none."

When a player sets out to make a WoE Weapon they think "I am going to work fairly hard to make a really powerful weapon with great damage and a unique WS, one of the best weapons in the game for what I can do."

I checked it, you can't definitively say not. Of EVERY weapon for my level, 90, that I could wield, I have nothing to change to for mainhand. If I could unlock Blade: Hi (which I can soon as long as that quest allows me to unlock the WS without actually having to be 99 and equip the weapon I'm grabbing the WS out of), I would have no weapon absolutely clearly worth changing to for mainhand.

I didn't build Tobi just because I wanted to use Blade: Hi. I also built it because it's strong. The thought when the investment began was both 'this WS is good' and 'oh this weapon has good DPS'.

That is what you aren't agreeing with, but also talk as if you're not understanding. To call Coin weapons 'just something you did because you wanted a WS' is stupid because not everyone could fight what it took to get the Empyrean itself. The path was easier, yes, but not so much easier that going 'well you didn't try hard enough so no upgrade for you' should fly. Would it have been okay if SE said 'well we'll add iLvl for Mythics but not for Empyreans because Empyreans aren't really as hard and if you expected to be relevant you shouldn't have picked the easy path'?

It's the fact that there was a path. A path one set out on with an intention, the same way a Relic or Mythic or Empy user set out on their path. I realize that by this argument Magian trials should have the same treatment, and actually I do believe that, especially the "Occasionally Attacks Twice" ones that took so long to do in some ways.

I'm not really arguing for this at this point, because the argument that they 'have to draw the line somewhere' is valid enough. But Stompa correctly points out that it at least appears that throwing out a couple skill patches isn't hard enough for them to justify not doing it.

Why don't they just make all the WS unlockable, scrap Empyreans, and just throw the Aftermath in as a flagged effect on the player when they use an 'unlocked' WS? For Kannagi that's 6 damage, 20 AGI, and -17 delay over a Kasasagi. Are we arguing that 'the line' is drawn at 1 point of DPS and +20 to a stat that is irrelevant at the iLvl point?

No, the only argument being made is 'well they don't think they should so they shouldn't have to' but they 'didn't think they should update RME either'.

[FaeQueenCory]

This is so incredibly basic to understand, and while I understand that some may not agree, I ask that they make another effort to understand.

This is about what the player thought they were doing when they invested their time.

When a player sets out to make an Empyrean weapon they think "I am going to work hard to make a really powerful weapon with unique stats, great damage and a WS, one of the best weapons in the game bar none."

When a player sets out to make a WoE Weapon they think "I am going to work fairly hard to make a really powerful weapon with great damage and a unique WS, one of the best weapons in the game for what I can do."

I checked it, you can't definitively say not. Of EVERY weapon for my level, 90, that I could wield, I have nothing to change to for mainhand. If I could unlock Blade: Hi (which I can soon as long as that quest allows me to unlock the WS without actually having to be 99 and equip the weapon I'm grabbing the WS out of), I would have no weapon absolutely clearly worth changing to for mainhand.

I didn't build Tobi just because I wanted to use Blade: Hi. I also built it because it's strong. The thought when the investment began was both 'this WS is good' and 'oh this weapon has good DPS'.

That is what you aren't agreeing with, but also talk as if you're not understanding. To call Coin weapons 'just something you did because you wanted a WS' is stupid because not everyone could fight what it took to get the Empyrean itself. The path was easier, yes, but not so much easier that going 'well you didn't try hard enough so no upgrade for you' should fly. Would it have been okay if SE said 'well we'll add iLvl for Mythics but not for Empyreans because Empyreans aren't really as hard and if you expected to be relevant you shouldn't have picked the easy path'?

It's the fact that there was a path. A path one set out on with an intention, the same way a Relic or Mythic or Empy user set out on their path. I realize that by this argument Magian trials should have the same treatment, and actually I do believe that, especially the "Occasionally Attacks Twice" ones that took so long to do in some ways.

I'm not really arguing for this at this point, because the argument that they 'have to draw the line somewhere' is valid enough. But Stompa correctly points out that it at least appears that throwing out a couple skill patches isn't hard enough for them to justify not doing it.

Why don't they just make all the WS unlockable, scrap Empyreans, and just throw the Aftermath in as a flagged effect on the player when they use an 'unlocked' WS? For Kannagi that's 6 damage, 20 AGI, and -17 delay over a Kasasagi. Are we arguing that 'the line' is drawn at 1 point of DPS and +20 to a stat that is irrelevant at the iLvl point?

No, the only argument being made is 'well they don't think they should so they shouldn't have to' but they 'didn't think they should update RME either'.
No, I understand what you're saying.... but the coin weapons were never intended to be anything more than a cute little toy.

And, ultimately, they have never grown to be anything BUT that cute little toy.
Sure, it might mean something for you personally.... but the community overall dismissed them.

It's very similar to SMN af gear.
The Artifact set clearly demonstrates what SE thought the job should be played like: poop an Avatar, BP, dismiss, repeat.
But the community overall said: that's stupid. why would I do that? here's how we play smn.
And thusly, the Relic and Empyrean sets reflect how the players play the job.

This is no different.

Sure you are part of the minority who made them as an alternative to a REM.... but they were never anything close in the eyes of the community at large.
No one made these... and the main reason why is because for about half of the production... you're just making an empy, so why not get that +% WSdmg.

I understand your personal dissatisfaction at the coin weapons truly being made into the janky toys they were always meant to be... and usually viewed as by the community at large.
The main power behind the REMs isn't the WS or the dps or even their stat bonuses.
It's the aftermath and the +%dmg the corresponding WS gives.
That is what set them apart.
That is what made the coin weapons always nothing more than janky toys.
To argue otherwise is just arguing emotional attachment.

You are not invalid for liking and loving these toys you made...
But do not think that they are anything more than that.
A rank15 h2h is not an Oats... and it never will be.

And the coin weapons have never been considered "one of the best weapons in the game"... ever.
Perhaps by you.
But not by any player that I have ever played with.
Even the ones I know personally who have them...
They have always been janky little toys and nothing more... now you can just really tell because they are crappier than crap thanks to a lack of iLv.

[Randnum]

Very well. At this point it really comes down to how right you are about the idea that 'no one made these'.

I understand of course that more people would have gone the full nine yards and made the Empyrean. And I obviously don't know how many people did make these compared to Empyreans.

I do know that most people who did make these, rightly, don't consider them something to point out or 'brag about'.

But Stompa did. And I did. And the question is really how many other people did and whether or not the 'community' you speak of that 'never considered them anything more than janky toys' are simply 'the people who made Empyreans because they considered these to be janky toys'.

Because when 'the community' is 'the people who complain when you make one of these instead of full Empyrean', obviously it appears as though these weapons are not valued at all.

Perspective is interesting.

[SNK]

In a sense I made WoE 99 weapons as a faster alternative to unlock emp Weaponskills for jobs I'm hardly on like NIN or THF but now that they're going allow me to use them on delve quality weapons, I'm so glad the time I spent making all of these things level 99 in the 1st place. They're toys and or just something to give you a little extra buff in damage over their real conterparts and that's all they should be seen as.

As far as them having no value... well if you're still using them after the november update then I don't know what to tell you.