Item level / vertical progression query

[Jerbob]

I would like to take this opportunity to more formally request a developer response to the concerns held by a large proportion of the playerbase regarding the new item level and vertical progression model. It is increasingly apparent that a significant proportion of the population is very much against these changes - a lot of the more popular threads at the moment involve discussion on the topic - but as of yet there is no official recognition of this discontentment from SE. Server population levels are falling rapidly; this is a subject that needs to be dealt with, and soon.

On a personal level, my future participation in the game hinges upon this factor and, judging by other people's feelings as expressed on this forum, I am not alone. In order to secure our continued subscription to your service, these changes need to be either revoked or significantly altered. To that end, we would appreciate developer insight into these questions:

1. Is there any developer recognition of the lack of player support for the new game direction?
2. Do the developers acknowledge that recent changes in game direction are at least in part responsible for the game's decline, or do they consider this exclusively due to the recent release of XIV?
3. Are there any plans to modify, reduce or remove the influence of item levels and vertical progression from the game?

Any response would be appreciated. Ultimately, I am tired of subscribing to a game that I no longer play just so that I can participate in forum discussion and hope that things will change. Thank you.

[Zumi]

I for one disagree with you. I like having actual upgrades and actually getting better gear and the ilvl system is more modern and works better because they don't want to raise the cap past 99. It feels like the power of your character goes up as you get higher level gear and you actually see noticeable performance increases. Every mmo these days uses a ilvl system because it just works for gear progression. I don't mind replacing all my gear because it means I actually get to do something, work toward farming another gear set.

Sidegrades like they done in the past seemed pretty pointless when all this gear was released that wasn't much of an upgrade. Often players would avoid doing a lot of new content because they were sidegrades and didn't offer any advantages over what they have now. Limbus 2 / Odin 2 is an example of sidegrades that most of the community ignored.

[leorez]

I for one disagree with you. I like having actual upgrades and actually getting better gear and the ilvl system is more modern and works better because they don't want to raise the cap past 99. It feels like the power of your character goes up as you get higher level gear and you actually see noticeable performance increases. Every mmo these days uses a ilvl system because it just works for gear progression. I don't mind replacing all my gear because it means I actually get to do something, work toward farming another gear set.

Sidegrades like they done in the past seemed pretty pointless when all this gear was released that wasn't much of an upgrade. Often players would avoid doing a lot of new content because they were sidegrades and didn't offer any advantages over what they have now. Limbus 2 / Odin 2 is an example of sidegrades that most of the community ignored.

Your one of the very few, he is correct, its crazy how many threads come up about disliking it...and the giant sudden drop off of players when they started it is just proof of that. You play 14 and enjoy Ilevel, let it stay there and you can enjoy it there.

[predatory]

I really would like to see some input from the dev team as well. I want to know how they can justify destroying the game for so many dedicated players? Why would they cobble together an expansion that outdated everything before it, without any regard for it's player base, and brushing aside all the complaints about the new system? Does SE have any plans on making the old content relevant again, or do they think we will stand idly by and pay for a game we no longer wish to play?

[Jerbob]

I can respect that. I think that the playerbase is varied enough that we're going to have lots of different likes, dislikes and expectations, and it's not always going to be possible to appease everyone at the time. The problem here lies in the fact that the game has changed so completely without any warning, and changing something so fundamental as level progression in a way that is so utterly opposed to the status quo is gong to upset a lot of people. With a game that has so little in the way of new players, it's going to be a dealbreaker.

A lot of people played XI precisely because of the progression model. I never realised it before, having little experience with other MMOs, but it probably did a great deal to keep me interested. I'm not a fan of working towards something that's going to be worthless before I even finish getting it, no matter how fun the event may be. Not saying that your opinion of vertical progression is objectively flawed by any means, just that I don't think it's suitable for XI.

When it comes down to it, this whole mess is the result of someone at SE deciding that it was time for another level cap increase. That in itself is a flawed premise - I'm not sure why that was necessary. They argued that vertical progression was a requirement simply because the existing system had "run out of scope" or some such. In other games perhaps there is not the variety of equipment stats and the system of equipment swapping on the fly to accommodate horizontal progression, but I would argue that equipment system is one of XI's strengths (despite the lamentable macroing system and inventory restrictions) and should be held to as a foundation.

[Afania]

I for one disagree with you. I like having actual upgrades and actually getting better gear and the ilvl system is more modern and works better because they don't want to raise the cap past 99. It feels like the power of your character goes up as you get higher level gear and you actually see noticeable performance increases. Every mmo these days uses a ilvl system because it just works for gear progression. I don't mind replacing all my gear because it means I actually get to do something, work toward farming another gear set.

Sidegrades like they done in the past seemed pretty pointless when all this gear was released that wasn't much of an upgrade. Often players would avoid doing a lot of new content because they were sidegrades and didn't offer any advantages over what they have now. Limbus 2 / Odin 2 is an example of sidegrades that most of the community ignored.

If you like vertical gear progression, FFXIV is that way---------------->

You argued that vergical gear progression is "more modern and better", but it's not, it's just different model that works differently. It's not better nor worse, just different.

If you often visit major mmorpg gaming website like mmorpg.com, many players there hated vertical gear progression like how you hate FFXI system, if it's really "better", then everyone should love it no?

I can name many disadvantages of vertical gear progression model too:

1. You can't do next tier of content until you have current tier gears. GL spamming same content over and over and unable to do different stuff until this tier is over. It's boring as fuck IMO.

2. A gap between community. I can only play with players on same tier, because there's no reason to back and farm lower tier lv gears. If my friends/LS mate want to do tier 1 content, and I'm on tier 2, I see no reason to go back and play with them.

3. Vertical gear progression makes old content extremely boring after you climbed to certain tier. Right now in FFXIV majority of players in XIV can kill garuda HM in 6 min, or beat WP(a 90 min dungeon) in less than 10 min. If I go back to solo salvage 75, I can still die if I'm careless and pull too many mobs that I still have to focus and pay attention, that makes the content more fun to do as long as there's a reason to do it. Personally I don't find facerolling WP in less than 15 min(again, a 90 min dungeon) is fun at all.

4. You don't really need to climb everything, you can have just have someone carry you and start from highest tier. That killed the sense of character progression.

Also you're fooling yourself if you think nobody wants to do content if it's sidegrade, gear swap system/sidegrade and situational useful gears is exactly what keeps old content alive. Vertical progression model is something that WILL kill old content fast. Players still do limbus2/Odin2 for maybe 1~2 pieces of gears before SoA, now nobody do them anymore.

The point of FFXI system is that your character grow as you collect as many situational gears as possible, that's how your character get strong. A job with 10 gear set is much stronger than 1 gear set. Most of the gear remain useful for very long time, not just a ticket to next tier content, that's what makes FFXI fun.

If you like to faceroll old content in god mode with gears 3 tiers higher, just play FFXIV. And please keep XI the way it was so whoever enjoys old XI can keep playing XI and vertical gear progression fans/wow fans go play XIV. One of the worst thing in XI community is players wanting XI to become next wow and bitch at dev for not turning FFXI into WoW, and when real wow clone FFXIV released they just end up playing XIV anyways, now whoever likes old XI has no game to play because XI is slowly turning into WoW lol.



tl;dr:

Nobody want to play FFXI in WOW mode, those who wanted WoW in FF style are playing XIV, those loved old FFXI can't tolerate current XI. This game is dying because it's turning into WoW, and it's not appealing anyone since whoever wanted vertical progression are playing XIV already.

[Afania]

I can respect that. I think that the playerbase is varied enough that we're going to have lots of different likes, dislikes and expectations

Those who disliked FFXI model would leave XI for WoW years ago, and those who wanted FF in WoW mode would leave for XIV too. Current XI playerbase are players liking old XI, mostly.

There's no reason to please WoW model fans, they're not coming back to XI even if XI changes to WoW model. Change XI back to the way it was, a game with gear complexity, immersion and longevity, that's the best way to keep current playerbase.

[Anjou]

Change it back to a rabbit kicking your ass at lvl 75, god it was embarrassing but seeing a pack of Moss Eaters charging at you in the tree struck fear in me...

[Afania]

Its the way I farmed the original bayld WAR and DNC armor sets 5/5 and auged them 5/5, then the very next week along came Gorney and Shneddick sets, identical looking armor sets to the ones I farmed the previous week, but slightly different colour and with slightly better stats, and slightly higher bayld cost. So I farmed those 5/5 and auged those 5/5. And threw away the two 5/5 aug sets that cost me like 100k bayld lol. I farmed some skirmish armors too but only for certain slots. And now they announce further bayld armor sets, which will probably look the same as the other sets, sets which I will /toss again, and farm the new ones lol. And all this armor-set /tossing in a few months time frame. Tbh I wouldnt get the new skirmish or new bayld armors anyway if theres lvl99 artifact armor on the horizon. But built-in obsolescence is a problem especially if you quite liked the old game system of having a 'favourite armor build' which you had got used to and liked, to have to toss that every four weeks just to stay uptodate feels sort of wrong. Once a year to upgrade armor sets was fine imo.

I've been tossing AK/DL gears in XIV for past 1 month too, shit just takes inventory and 0 sense of accomplishment after getting them because they're piss easy to get and doesn't last long. Whoever enjoy tossing gears weeks after you got previous gear should play XIV, for real.

And leave XI the way it was before SoA, ty :)

[leorez]

I've been tossing AK/DL gears in XIV for past 1 month too, shit just takes inventory and 0 sense of accomplishment after getting them because they're piss easy to get and doesn't last long. Whoever enjoy tossing gears weeks after you got previous gear should play XIV, for real.

And leave XI the way it was before SoA, ty :)

i was never used to chucking gear like that, but i did realize hanging onto the AF and stuff was pointless. The even worse part was that the gear in that game are all the same stats on them, just slightly higher of the same 4 stats. It was mind numbingly simple and i was never excited for the next piece because it was more of the same shit but a new look.

This is why i missed 1.23, stats were different and meant more, they had specialized stats like there were on the Relics/AF/Primal weapons..ect that they tossed out completely, AA is now useless because you spammed your skills all day in a brainless rotation, all the content that was challenging and took groups for it all went out the door (remember when AF in 1.0 was actually not handed to you?) Group grinds were an actual option (not purposely made to not be one in 2.0 via the devs saying they didnt want it to) Combat in general was way more fun and strategic, it went from lots of positional and reactionary skill/combo to braindead rotations.

1.0 where it ended was shaping up to be a great game and something FFXI players could change into, but of course they threw that shit all out when they decided they needed to "fit the standard" as they talked to MMO devs, mainly Blizzard's WoW team which they admitted they took most of their plans from.

[Zumi]

If you like vertical gear progression, FFXIV is that way---------------->

You argued that vergical gear progression is "more modern and better", but it's not, it's just different model that works differently. It's not better nor worse, just different.

If you often visit major mmorpg gaming website like mmorpg.com, many players there hated vertical gear progression like how you hate FFXI system, if it's really "better", then everyone should love it no?

I can name many disadvantages of vertical gear progression model too:

1. You can't do next tier of content until you have current tier gears. GL spamming same content over and over and unable to do different stuff until this tier is over. It's boring as fuck IMO.

2. A gap between community. I can only play with players on same tier, because there's no reason to back and farm lower tier lv gears. If my friends/LS mate want to do tier 1 content, and I'm on tier 2, I see no reason to go back and play with them.

3. Vertical gear progression makes old content extremely boring after you climbed to certain tier. Right now in FFXIV majority of players in XIV can kill garuda HM in 6 min, or beat WP(a 90 min dungeon) in less than 10 min. If I go back to solo salvage 75, I can still die if I'm careless and pull too many mobs that I still have to focus and pay attention, that makes the content more fun to do as long as there's a reason to do it. Personally I don't find facerolling WP in less than 15 min(again, a 90 min dungeon) is fun at all.

4. You don't really need to climb everything, you can have just have someone carry you and start from highest tier. That killed the sense of character progression.

Also you're fooling yourself if you think nobody wants to do content if it's sidegrade, gear swap system/sidegrade and situational useful gears is exactly what keeps old content alive. Vertical progression model is something that WILL kill old content fast. Players still do limbus2/Odin2 for maybe 1~2 pieces of gears before SoA, now nobody do them anymore.

The point of FFXI system is that your character grow as you collect as many situational gears as possible, that's how your character get strong. A job with 10 gear set is much stronger than 1 gear set. Most of the gear remain useful for very long time, not just a ticket to next tier content, that's what makes FFXI fun.

If you like to faceroll old content in god mode with gears 3 tiers higher, just play FFXIV. And please keep XI the way it was so whoever enjoys old XI can keep playing XI and vertical gear progression fans/wow fans go play XIV. One of the worst thing in XI community is players wanting XI to become next wow and bitch at dev for not turning FFXI into WoW, and when real wow clone FFXIV released they just end up playing XIV anyways, now whoever likes old XI has no game to play because XI is slowly turning into WoW lol.



tl;dr:

Nobody want to play FFXI in WOW mode, those who wanted WoW in FF style are playing XIV, those loved old FFXI can't tolerate current XI. This game is dying because it's turning into WoW, and it's not appealing anyone since whoever wanted vertical progression are playing XIV already.

I do play FFXIV honestly I think its a great game but I already capped out almost everything there is to do in it. It's just a difference of opinion I know people who quit FFXI because of side grades and there was no gear progression. I am very happy with the way FFXI is now, I don't see anyone in my LS complaining about it. They even updating relics/empyreans/mythic because people complained about it. Also I can distinctly remember lots of people complaining about how there were too many side grades in the game. Most of the people who didn't like upgrades quit when the level cap was raised I thought because abyssea was direct upgrades to gear.

SoA is really no different then Abyssea just the power level gap is bigger this time around. I think they wanted to raise the level cap again but they couldn't due to PS2 limitations.

Also 10 min WP is only beatable by a very small fraction I mean less then .1% of the population and takes a very specific set up, pld, whm, brd, blm. 2 dps classes that are very good at aoe. I done it countless times and have darklight for every class, but the majority of the playerbase does not have the ability to do this. This is only accomplished by taking those 4 jobs geared with at least some ilvl 90 gear.

If you don't want to help people get on the same tier as you, then your obviously not a good friend/ls member. When abyssea came out I helped a lot of friends get caught up with seals and +2s.

Lots of people are fine with the upgardes they just don't sit here and complain about it on the forums.

[predatory]

I do play FFXIV honestly I think its a great game but I already capped out almost everything there is to do in it. It's just a difference of opinion I know people who quit FFXI because of side grades and there was no gear progression. I am very happy with the way FFXI is now.

You don't see the irony in this at all do you? You're paying for two games, and you want them to be exactly the same, and bedamned to us who don't want to play ffxiv

[Jerbob]

I think a lot of the complaining about sidegrades and minor upgrades stems from storage issues. Because gear stats are so varied in XI (or used to be at any rate), you would often get an upgrade for some gear that wouldn't render the old piece completely obsolete - the gear had multiple functions. More recently there were new unique attributes for gear released - I raged when I saw Cursna improving gear because I knew I'd never have space for it. That doesn't mean the concept of sidegrading or "partial upgrading" is flawed, just that the underlying system supporting it - inventories - doesn't have the capacity for growth. In short, it's theoretically it's fine, but from a technical standpoint work needed to be done - hence complaints.

Abyssea was fine to an extent (trying not to open a can of worms here) because we all knew from the start exactly where we were starting from and what the destination was. There was a finite length of time for growth (the final declared level cap of 99) that was exciting at the time, and because the whole thing was structured around new AF there was some control over stuff being rendered obsolete after a single update. I won't deny that some really nice gear that people worked hard for was made less useful - that sucked for those affected - but we all knew that, at the end, normal service would resume. That's not the case for the new direction we're taking now.


Lots of people are fine with the upgrades they just don't sit here and complain about it on the forums.
In all honesty, with this line of reasoning, the forums have no function at all. Of course people who are complaining shout louder than those who are content, but that's the case for any topic that's discussed here. Forums are never going to give unbiased points of view, but that doesn't mean that dissatisfied people shouldn't give their opinions.

[leorez]

You don't see the irony in this at all do you? You're paying for two games, and you want them to be exactly the same, and bedamned to us who don't want to play ffxiv

They also dont realize that this sharp vertical climb is what made them say "but I already capped out almost everything there is to do in it". Thats what that style of progression does, it quickly makes everything useless, turning it quickly into a single event game that people get sick of really fast. The beauty of FFXI was that there was so much endgame to do...because all the events provided gear that was useful, even if slight upgrades happened, you could be just as effective if you did the older one (as for how it is now, your not nearly effective enough so you need to be left out).

It seems Zumi loves XIV's style of game....thats great, so play it and play the 100s of games exactly like it with its style of progress that are out on the market. Your wasting your time on XI if thats the type of gameplay you like. I just want what made FFXI great back then along with many of my old friends who all pretty much quit because of its crap.

[FaeQueenCory]

It seems I'm one of the very minor who likes the vertical progression.... and dislikes it equally.

I like it because with a new expansion, the game should evolve by a large jump.... And +20 is reasonable.
(TBH, IMO, the level cap should have slowly increased to 99 from the beginning: RoTZ/CoP: 75, ToAU: 85/90, WotG: 95/99... The problems we are having right now are because for 4 expansions... the level cap never rose... then it rose from 75-99 almost over night with Abyssea.)
But what I seriously DISLIKE about it all is that gear is now pretty much 100% "highest iLv# or you fail"... At least for anything that's not a mage job. There really is little reason to wear the lv100 bayld gear... EVER. Just farm the original price of it and get the 106....
:/
And then there's the huge problem of endgame....
Or even just getting to the endgame....
Once you have the few pieces of Delve gear that you want/need... why bother ever going on a delve run again?
To make money?
What for? You have everything you want...
To... get... more plasm? for what?

The real problem with Adoulin is that it's an endgame without an endgame.... and the the extreme degree of vertical progression...
The degree is also bad for two reasons
1) it makes people disheartened... people can only do so much grinding before they say "nope. we're done here, shut it down." Outdate something that someone ground out too much.... and you'll have people leave because the point it gone. This was probably best shown with the outdating of the REMs. While one can argue that one of the three is "harder" to make... we can all agree that each takes a HUGE investment to just make the base. (R=money, E=NM time, M=ToAU+money+NM time) And the cries of rage at their outdate is due to before, this huge time sink rewarded you with something great.
But with Adoulin.... the grind rewards you with something that will be crap by the next update.
2) it brings out the douchiness in ppl.
Now, I'm all for requiring your endgame content pts to be well geared... but requiring the drops from the content that you're about to do is insane troll logic. (which is why I have always favored the REM update: REMs being back = more ppl can join in on the.... Endgame... :/ )
Sure, the REMs made some ppl feel bad because "oh you don't have a REM? sorry, we need someone who does." (that's what I said, cause I don't like being rude.) But the thing with REMs were: if you have one, you probably know what you're doing... or at least are invested enough in that job to actually make one.


My problem with Adoulin is that Delve is an awful endgame... And I don't see it ever being better. Even with the other fractures, once it's done, there's just 0 reason to do it again.

[Zephrose]

I can't see why vertical wouldn't be the way to go... If you want to go somewhere, why not UP?! Moving laterally is only going to do the same thing but in more minor movements and in all the same systems.

Honestly, this game isn't updated in the right way to make Vertical leaps well accepted. Truly, when the expansion came out, that was the best position for Vertical leaping. Everyone felt it and moved up to it. Not quickly but at a good pace. What destroyed this, and it's classic SE since ToAU, is the amount of content and forced leaping the player would have to do in order to obtain the gear for the higher content. They got this right in the Delve fights, as players started to gain the gear from the NMs, they started winning more fights. However, outside of delve, the balyd system with reives and WKRs, this system failed. No amount of growth was really needed for WKR. Better gear is always going to make a difference, but even Yum/Hurk didnt need delve gear to beat it. Just a mass of bodies thrown at them.

This game has had a growth issue since I cant remember in ToAU. It's only gotten worse since. WotG is a great example too. How long was it before we got an update? A year? Sounds about right.

But to might point, a game is meant to challenge you. If the devs challenge is to get the newest gear to make you feel stronger, then eat it up. Otherwise, you might want to look somewhere else. Cuz essentially, vertically or laterally, you'll be doing the same thing anyways, right? Unless you just want the gear to look pretty... go play IMVU haha.

[Damane]

vertical gear progression is fine, it just shouldnt be done this quickly. haveing vertical gear progression every 9-10 months is good while you fill the inbetween months with outstanding horizontal gear progression.

[Mostfowl]

In all honesty for all the defending I have done for xiv, the game is just boring at this point. They released it without enough challenge or content and all there is to do is log in > cap your tomes > log out. Even the ridiculous method they implemented for getting crystals and shards to craft (by mining and harvesting) makes it so crafting isn't even a viable option. I mean who wants to craft when you need to slowly farm shards and you need 11 of them to make 1 item.

That being said I resubscribed to ffxi to see how things went (albeit I did this on my alt account since there was so much talk of accounts be hijacked on other sites and I didn't want to risk my main) and not only is there nothing to do, there was no gusgen mines or other lower lvl pts going on, the worm pts consisted of so many underskilled/equipped and low lvl chars that exp was a crawl and since my char is so far behind, I have barely touched SoA content, I cannot get anything done. So whats the point of xi or xiv right now?

Its so sad, xi was so great and no matter the content it was always busy years after release. I mean look how hard it was to get into dyna before they changed it. There were always salvage groups, MMM groups, Nyzle groups, Limbus groups, einherjar groups, etc etc. Now its crickets everywhere. Even most aby zones have maybe 1 person in them if that.

Vertical gear progression was just not a good idea. Sidegrades made the game and taking that away took away ffxi. If sidegrades were so bad, as some ppl imply, how come content was still buzzing 5 years after release? This was my first and only mmo for a long time and its sad to see it die but that's exactly what this new method is doing.

Sad days

[predatory]

In all honesty for all the defending I have done for xiv, the game is just boring at this point. They released it without enough challenge or content and all there is to do is log in > cap your tomes > log out. Even the ridiculous method they implemented for getting crystals and shards to craft (by mining and harvesting) makes it so crafting isn't even a viable option. I mean who wants to craft when you need to slowly farm shards and you need 11 of them to make 1 item.

That being said I resubscribed to ffxi to see how things went (albeit I did this on my alt account since there was so much talk of accounts be hijacked on other sites and I didn't want to risk my main) and not only is there nothing to do, there was no gusgen mines or other lower lvl pts going on, the worm pts consisted of so many underskilled/equipped and low lvl chars that exp was a crawl and since my char is so far behind, I have barely touched SoA content, I cannot get anything done. So whats the point of xi or xiv right now?

Its so sad, xi was so great and no matter the content it was always busy years after release. I mean look how hard it was to get into dyna before they changed it. There were always salvage groups, MMM groups, Nyzle groups, Limbus groups, einherjar groups, etc etc. Now its crickets everywhere. Even most aby zones have maybe 1 person in them if that.

Vertical gear progression was just not a good idea. Sidegrades made the game and taking that away took away ffxi. If sidegrades were so bad, as some ppl imply, how come content was still buzzing 5 years after release? This was my first and only mmo for a long time and its sad to see it die but that's exactly what this new method is doing.

Sad days

You should have read the forums before you resubbed, you would have seen my complaints and I'm from Bahamut. SE managed to kill this game, and they did it with an expansion :mad::D

[Zhronne]

I understand and support the OP's constructive criticism, but it's too late now.
They couldn't raise the level cap past 99 so they had to do it through ilevel.
Real question is: did the game really needed to increase the level cap? FFXI stayed at level75 for like what, 7 years? I guess a few more years of level 99 wouldn't hurt, would they?

It seems things are getting better, they are trying to adapt SoA's model (vertical, linear progression) to make it more similar to what it used to be before (horizontal progression, sidegrades, lots of different events).
The final result will probably be a compromise but it will be better than the SoA launch.


With the AF revamps and incoming relic and then empy revamps, RME revamps, more gear to be added, more fractures, more skirmish, more "new" events and I even expect some small revamps to old events.
With all of this going on I feel a bit more positive concerning the future of FFXI compared to how depressed and frustrated I felt when SoA came out.



We really have to realize and accept the fact that it's too late for them to press the reset button and completely reset all the several changes (which we didn't like) that happened with SoA.
But trying to slightly tilt the direction and find a common ground between the 2 game models is a good sign imho, I want to be optimist for once.

[Afania]

I do play FFXIV honestly I think its a great game but I already capped out almost everything there is to do in it. It's just a difference of opinion I know people who quit FFXI because of side grades and there was no gear progression. I am very happy with the way FFXI is now, I don't see anyone in my LS complaining about it. They even updating relics/empyreans/mythic because people complained about it. Also I can distinctly remember lots of people complaining about how there were too many side grades in the game. Most of the people who didn't like upgrades quit when the level cap was raised I thought because abyssea was direct upgrades to gear.

SoA is really no different then Abyssea just the power level gap is bigger this time around. I think they wanted to raise the level cap again but they couldn't due to PS2 limitations.

Also 10 min WP is only beatable by a very small fraction I mean less then .1% of the population and takes a very specific set up, pld, whm, brd, blm. 2 dps classes that are very good at aoe. I done it countless times and have darklight for every class, but the majority of the playerbase does not have the ability to do this. This is only accomplished by taking those 4 jobs geared with at least some ilvl 90 gear.

If you don't want to help people get on the same tier as you, then your obviously not a good friend/ls member. When abyssea came out I helped a lot of friends get caught up with seals and +2s.

Lots of people are fine with the upgardes they just don't sit here and complain about it on the forums.

Don't worry, if you want more vertical progression MMORPG I can find 10 more titles for you, do you want western style or anime style? :)

And leave FFXI alone ty :) I want to get my ass kicked by lv 90 rabbits, I don't want to kill Tojil +5 NM in 5 min after 6 months

And you do realize it's just the matter of time for 50% of population to do sub 10 min WP run right? Because of vertical gear progression. Players don't have more than a few pieces of IL90 because of mythology cap and coil lock out, wait for 2 months everyone and their mother, brother, grandpa and grandma can beat it in 10 min.

You stated that "you're happy with the way FFXI is now", you do know that majority of the players who QQ here are done with the game too, due to nothing else to work on. So how can you be happy with a game ppl have nothing to do?

I only log on 2~3 days a week to play FFXIV now, since I can finish coil 1~4+ mythology cap in 2~3 night(hardcore can finish it in 1 day, inb4 go do T5). It's really hard for me to say "I'm happy with current XIV now", when I paid $10 a month and only get to play 2~3 night a week. This applies to XI. And it's all because of vertical gear progression.

Lol at "you must be bad LS member/friend if you don't do lower tier", you don't understand human nature I guess. I'm talking about human nature, even if you're awesome and want to help, doesn't mean everyone else gonna help.

More importantly, there are no sense of accomplishment in both games because gears are ass easy to obtain and doesn't last long. SoA is no different from Abyssea, and I'm never a big fan of Abyssea. Sadly SoA is even worse than Abyssea, at least Abyssea still has gear variety, unlike SoA gears are like same stat for every piece, just 1 better than another.

There are ppl who will like 75 XI, and some ppl like WoW model/vertical gear progression. But you can't assume everyone has same opinion as you and vertical gear progression is zomg the best solution to every MMO title. People complained about sidegrade, is like husband complained about their wife lol. They stick with their wife for too long and only see the bad part about it, and everyone else's wife are perfect. Vertical gear progression has it's issues, some ppl either don't see it or willing to accept it.

But there's no reason for XI to change to vertical gear progression, the entire game mechanics are based on gear swap and situational gears, it simply won't work very unless there's a remake.

Stop trying to change FFXI into wow, it's going to kill the game. If you like WoW model, build a new game or find a new game to play. Do you go to Diablo 3 forum and ask the dev change the game into WoW? No. So why are you asking FFXI to follow WoW model?

[Afania]

vertical gear progression is fine, it just shouldnt be done this quickly. haveing vertical gear progression every 9-10 months is good while you fill the inbetween months with outstanding horizontal gear progression.

Current SoA issue is more than vertical gear progression. SoA XI also has way less gear variety, that's almost as bad as FFXIV. XI used to be fun, because of situational gears that you have to collect and use it on right time, and players who's dedicated to 1 job really stand out. Abyssea/SoA FFXI isn't like that, so the game isn't as satisfying to play when your job is same as everyone else's.

[Afania]

But to might point, a game is meant to challenge you. If the devs challenge is to get the newest gear to make you feel stronger, then eat it up. Otherwise, you might want to look somewhere else. Cuz essentially, vertically or laterally, you'll be doing the same thing anyways, right? Unless you just want the gear to look pretty... go play IMVU haha.

I feel sad if you think it's all the same lol. For me getting SoA gear in XI or Allagan/philosophy/mythology gears feel the same, all just "oh, ok, let's wait until next IL tier come out and toss it".

There are several gears in XI I was like "OMGOMGOMG YEAHHHH FINALLY" when I got it, because it's best in slot and unlikely to be replaced, on top of taking very long time to get.

They are just not the same. I was doing the same thing, kill stuff and get loot, but the satisfaction isn't the same.

[Mostfowl]

I feel sad if you think it's all the same lol. For me getting SoA gear in XI or Allagan/philosophy/mythology gears feel the same, all just "oh, ok, let's wait until next IL tier come out and toss it".

There are several gears in XI I was like "OMGOMGOMG YEAHHHH FINALLY" when I got it, because it's best in slot and unlikely to be replaced, on top of taking very long time to get.

They are just not the same. I was doing the same thing, kill stuff and get loot, but the satisfaction isn't the same.

Agreed.

Remember how amazing great it was to get rdm hat or thf hands in dyna, salvage gears or odin/omega drops, black belt or maats cap? You could walk around and be proud to wear them because you earned it. Even some nm drops were an accomplishment and would be cause for celebration. Now they are practically handing things out. We may as well form a line and get it from a moogle dispensary. It made the game fun struggling for gear and the struggle for gear wasn't bad because you knew once you got it that you would be using it for years to come. Now it really feels pointless to work for any piece of gear because you know in a month or 2 you just are going to toss it for something better anyway. So you go for the 5 minute drop then afk in your shiny new piece until the next update when you toss it for something better.

Regardless you are working for gear but I would much rather be challenged and work for a piece that I am going to use for a long time instead of doing only soso challenging content for a piece that Im going to drop next update

[Zephrose]

I feel sad if you think it's all the same lol. For me getting SoA gear in XI or Allagan/philosophy/mythology gears feel the same, all just "oh, ok, let's wait until next IL tier come out and toss it".

There are several gears in XI I was like "OMGOMGOMG YEAHHHH FINALLY" when I got it, because it's best in slot and unlikely to be replaced, on top of taking very long time to get.

They are just not the same. I was doing the same thing, kill stuff and get loot, but the satisfaction isn't the same.

You just said it, you're doing the same thing now as you were then.(In Bold) Granted, it's just easier to do now. And like I said, it wasn't quick at first. They just released a bad expansion. I mean, it could be a great expansion, but I think it's backwards or just lack luster at best. In the end, they aren't releasing enough content fast enough for the players to stay active OR content HARD/DIFFICULT enough(like the old days) to keep the players engaged.

The old days everyone talks about are grindmills and torture. Albeit, I enjoyed Salvage alot and hated the drop system, I'm glad I can walk into it now with a couple of friends and just leisurely work on gear that doesn't matter anymore. But I would hate to see this game revert back to the days of 4hour party look ups, 3-48hr NM camps, and the pulling teeth farms. If you want that "OMG" gear, you still have RME's to work towards.

A good way to think of it, from then to now, is in terms of Scaled content. The amount of content versus the difficulty versus the player base. Was this not the same for Abyssea? VW? WKR? Delve? Everything in between?

Honestly, I'm getting sick of these topics with "I dont like this or that". I know we're hear to voice our opinion so the devs can take note, but in the end, it's not our game. If you don't like it, and you really want to show them you mean it, quit... Ranting and raving is only going to disappoint you and leave you wondering why you wasted so much time complaining about something so trivial when you could have just been doing something you liked elsewhere.

[Demon6324236]

Your tired of threads on a Forum saying we don't like things about the game, when the only thing we are allowed to post here is feedback, all of which is sure to be negative for the most part. They have no social area really from what I have ever seen, this is just where we come to post feedback, if you want to talk to the community there is FFXIAH.com and BG Forums, this is the place for SE to see our feedback, and since most people happy with the game have little to say, the complaining people stand out a lot more here. If people just quit without saying what their issues are, everyone would leave and nothing would change, people have to say whats wrong for something to be done so they enjoy the game and continue to play it, its a better game that way...

[Zumi]

Current SoA issue is more than vertical gear progression. SoA XI also has way less gear variety, that's almost as bad as FFXIV. XI used to be fun, because of situational gears that you have to collect and use it on right time, and players who's dedicated to 1 job really stand out. Abyssea/SoA FFXI isn't like that, so the game isn't as satisfying to play when your job is same as everyone else's.

I think their goal is to move away from gear swaps, so you can actually play with in game macros like they intended.

[Zumi]

Agreed.

Remember how amazing great it was to get rdm hat or thf hands in dyna, salvage gears or odin/omega drops, black belt or maats cap? You could walk around and be proud to wear them because you earned it. Even some nm drops were an accomplishment and would be cause for celebration. Now they are practically handing things out. We may as well form a line and get it from a moogle dispensary. It made the game fun struggling for gear and the struggle for gear wasn't bad because you knew once you got it that you would be using it for years to come. Now it really feels pointless to work for any piece of gear because you know in a month or 2 you just are going to toss it for something better anyway. So you go for the 5 minute drop then afk in your shiny new piece until the next update when you toss it for something better.

Regardless you are working for gear but I would much rather be challenged and work for a piece that I am going to use for a long time instead of doing only soso challenging content for a piece that Im going to drop next update

You are talking about grinding a long time 1% salvage drop rates repeating the same zone like 300 times for 1 drop I.E. SSR Turtle back at 75 cap. Or camping HNM vs a bunch of botting LS trying to get that Nidhogg claim for Ebody, dalmatica ect. What we have now is bascially the same thing, only its designed better so you don't have to do 300 runs for a 1% drop rate you only need to do 1 run.

There is more skill and coordination involved now with delve bosses then there ever was with salvage. With campable NMs the fight was extremely easy the hard part was getting the claim. 5NM+boss kills besides Tojil are tuned pretty well tuned and were at least somewhat challenging for first time kills. Personally I rather be doing lots of new content as it comes out to get the next higher tier gear then running something really easy 300 times like salvage 1.0 and not even get the drop.

I find it fun getting new gear and progressing your character.

[Mostfowl]

I find it fun getting new gear and progressing your character.

But getting drops from salvage and what not WAS progressing your char. And content like salvage, dyna, einherjar, etc even repeated took skill. We had a ls that ran Dyna and salvage for literally years and it was always fun. Not to mention we helped countless ppl climb nyzle isle and again it was good times. Its not like XIV's AK or WP where you can burn thru with substandard gear and pay only 20% attn. to your screen or SoA content where you only have to really do it once or if you do have to spam it, you can afk or again give only 20%.

If you like gear progression there is tons of games out there for you but what ffxi unique and fun was the "grindfests". Sure you had to do content often but it was good content. And you want to talk easy when it came to nms after claim? Really? There were many many nms that were not easy even if you got claim, some even seasoned vets still had a hard time with and could wipe easily to. And if you enjoy new content your failing to realize your content is severely limited atm. with the introduction of the new progression your basically limited to a couple events and the myriad of other systems and content in the game is now null and void. Einherjar, Limbus, Nyzul, Salvage, MMM, BCNM, Sky, Sea, ZNM, HNM, Besieged, Campaign, to name just some of the content that was available. Now what do you have? A handful at best.

Really if you look at the sheer amount of ppl who have left and the rest who are departing or on here screaming at SE to stop this madness, you my dear are in the minority on this one

[Jerbob]

It's worth pointing out that the old horizontal system certainly wasn't perfect; a lot of the loot systems were terrible and things did get grindy at times. That's just because SE don't have a clue most of the time - it's not a fundamental flaw with the horizontal system. XI is constructed from the ground up around that style of progression and it's a much better foundation to work from simply because there are lots of supporting mechanics that make it work so well.

All the effort that they put into the item level system could have been spent on improving the supporting mechanics of the game to breathe new life into the horizontal progression system. Fundamentally, inventory space and equipment swaps through macros are the backbone that allows us as players to properly access the equipment variety that comes with the "old way"; the playerbase have made so many sensible and intelligent suggestions to improve these systems and work around the intrinsic limitations in XI's engine, all of which have been ignored in favour of item levels and "streamlining" gear variety.

Ultimately it just comes down to SE needing to put a bit of creativity and effort into development instead of blindly following the crowd and subscribing to the "just enough to keep them interested" paradigm. They have (or rather, had) a playerbase who are eager to put forward their feedback and make hundreds of novel suggestions, a lot of which are unworkable but most of which provide inspiration or insight into a game that they plainly don't play themselves. But no, they completely ignore everyone in favour of hastily blundering forward with ill-conceived plans that never actually see the light of day due to crippling resource mismanagement. This is why there are so many people complaining, and it's also precisely why there needs to be people who continue complaining.

[Zephrose]

But getting drops from salvage and what not WAS progressing your char. And content like salvage, dyna, einherjar, etc even repeated took skill. We had a ls that ran Dyna and salvage for literally years and it was always fun. Not to mention we helped countless ppl climb nyzle isle and again it was good times. Its not like XIV's AK or WP where you can burn thru with substandard gear and pay only 20% attn. to your screen or SoA content where you only have to really do it once or if you do have to spam it, you can afk or again give only 20%.

If you like gear progression there is tons of games out there for you but what ffxi unique and fun was the "grindfests". Sure you had to do content often but it was good content. And you want to talk easy when it came to nms after claim? Really? There were many many nms that were not easy even if you got claim, some even seasoned vets still had a hard time with and could wipe easily to. And if you enjoy new content your failing to realize your content is severely limited atm. with the introduction of the new progression your basically limited to a couple events and the myriad of other systems and content in the game is now null and void. Einherjar, Limbus, Nyzul, Salvage, MMM, BCNM, Sky, Sea, ZNM, HNM, Besieged, Campaign, to name just some of the content that was available. Now what do you have? A handful at best.

Really if you look at the sheer amount of ppl who have left and the rest who are departing or on here screaming at SE to stop this madness, you my dear are in the minority on this one

What are you talking about? NNI, HNM, Salvage2.0 and Dynamis gear is still useful... And still gives you that grinding feeling. To say you have less to do is not entirely true. Infact, delve only forced alot of those more recent events to be completed. With Mnks and Brd having to complete Dynamis augments. All light melee jobs need Thaumas gear. Paladins need twilight and ochain. I mean, really, to move forward, you still need to visit the past. How is any of this new content narrowing your content view?

I'm gonna have to side with Zumi, getting new gear and progressing your character is fun! And guess what!? YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS! The new systems SE is introducing to FFxi is simply faster at getting it. Abyssea was the same. Then people complained that was too quick so they introduced VW... And gawd... did people complain how SLOW they got their gear. You see what I'm driving too? It's the same progression, different pace, yet again.

And to point out minorities, I believe most people on this forum are in it. Because the majority of players I see online at night don't give a F$#K about how they get their gear, just as long as they get it. And guess what, again?! I HAVE FUN GETTING MY GEARZ TOO!

[Afania]

You just said it, you're doing the same thing now as you were then.(In Bold) Granted, it's just easier to do now.


I do the same thing for a purpose. And my purpose of playing a mmorpg, is to have "OMGOMGOMG I FINALY GOT IT" feel after I get an item. With current SoA system, it's simply not offering the experience. The "OMG I FINALY GOT IT" feel doesn't come if it's too easy and fast.

It's like spending $5 and eat junk food, or spend $50 and eat in a 5 stars restaurant. Yeah, you're eating regardless of spending $5 or $50, but do you seriously think spending $5 on junk food is same experience as spending $50 on 5 stars restaurant food?

Easier to do doesn't make the experience the same, it kills the experience.



I think their goal is to move away from gear swaps, so you can actually play with in game macros like they intended.

What's the point to move away from one of, if not the only fun feature in this game though. And gear swap works just fine with current game macros.




And to point out minorities, I believe most people on this forum are in it. Because the majority of players I see online at night don't give a F$#K about how they get their gear, just as long as they get it. And guess what, again?! I HAVE FUN GETTING MY GEARZ TOO!

I wish SE send me mythics for 20 jobs and a D ring in my inbox because it's ZOMG SO FUN TO GET GEARS.

FFXI private server is that way------------------> you get as many gears as you want as possible.

[predatory]

SE had the chance to make two very different games, and very good games to their respective audiences, had they kept the two dev teams in different parts of the building, but they didn't, and this is the result. Instead of making an expansion like every other actual expansion this game has ever had, (I say actual because aby was 3 mini expansions), and added content, and areas and jobs, they went ahead and drew a line between aby and soa, and in effect made a new game out of ffxi, and destroying everyone's hard work in the bargain. Then to top it off they make an update months later that makes AF1 relevant (haven't used mine for rng since I leveled out of it, my empy looks so much cooler and has much better stats), and RMEs relevant again, and expect us to just eat that turd with a big grin on our faces. "Hey we took 50 things from you months ago, we'll give you a couple back, that should make you happy" Well sorry SE it doesn't, not one little bit, I'll be happy when you give back everything you fucking took from me, and make this newest piece of shit you polluted the internet with playable.

Oh one more thing about the ilevels SE you can stick them in FFXIV where they belong, or you can stick them up your ass, (I really don't care which), but you need to take them out of FFXI, they don't belong here, they aren't wanted here, and you lost a lot diehard players over it, but hey guess that's your job right? Customer unsatisfaction? :mad:

Edited to let you guys know I know unsatisfaction isn't really a word, but what the hell if SE can just destroy MMORPGs at a whim, I may as well destroy the English language :)

[Draylo]

Can you possibly cry any more?

[Zumi]

Totally agree. SoA, which we paid money for, should not have made us feel like our lvl99 gear was being the victim of a Scorched Earth policy. SoA could have arrived, with new battlefields, exotic new areas, missions, quests, new mobs, all which could have been enjoyed with our favourite AF3+2, Relic+2[aug], Woepath empys, Magian99s, RMEs of any 80+ stage, VW / NNI gear etc.etc. SoA did not have to be a destroying-all-your-existing-gear expansion.
It could have been a great expansion. What it should certainly not have done, is make players with full sets of AF3+2 which they didn't get from login campaign but actually farmed in 2010 when it was still challenging to farm Aby, make those players feel that those high lvl armors with really useful jobspecific stats, and relic+2 sets[aug] also with useful stats, were totally totally useless now. The idea of new expansion, is to make players happy. I could list you just dozens of close personal friends who have quit FFXI since iLvl arrived, and since their Woepath empys were $hit on from a great height, quit the game after playing it for nine years through good days and bad days, but finally SoA made them feel actually hated on by SE to the extent they quit the game. And they aren't going to 14 either. I myself went 1/130~ on Spurrer Beret, camped it from 2009-2012. But I didn't complain, even if there had been forums to complain on. Me and most of my friends ingame would never complain about anything in FFXI regardless of how difficult it was to achieve/obtain. But this is different. This is a slap in our collective faces. It is insulting.
New expansions should bring new mobs, areas, missions/quests, and yes lots of new armor/weaps. New expansion should make the paying customer happy, not make them cry and quit the game in horror. New expansions should NOT destroy the existing lvl99 armor and weaps that people have worked so hard to build. Real life thousands of hours building stuff in FFXI, is not virtual time, it is your actual real life time. For SE to suddenly announce that all that work you did meant jack $hit to them, in an expansion you paid them money for, it is like you are paying them to destroy all the hard work you did, and the items you loved so much and were so proud of. And also when the level-cap rose from 95-99 there was SE interview saying "ever since 2002 we had planned to eventually raise the cap to 99 gradually, and for 99 to be the absolutely final cap." So we all thought our lvl 90-99 gear was always going to be useful, for that reason alone. And those items were lvl99 on a lvl99 char, so WHY would they be gimp, why should they be outdated and retroactively nerfed and entirely transformed without any good reason.

Look at it this way, they didn't want to make a new UI maybe PS2 limitations who knows but adding 3 digits for your level they didn't want to do. However now we progress our characters with gear more so now due to the fact they won't want to raise the actual level cap. When you have 119 gear you can think of your character as being level 119.

I see no problem at all with gear progression and have no problem replacing my old empyrean and vw, nni, salvage2, stuff with new gear. Its just gear in a video game it has no sentimental value to me. It served me well in the 99 era. However in this SoA era were mobs are higher levels way beyond 99, we need new gear to combat so getting new gear to beat the new content is naturally the next step.

I don't see why anyone would be mad at gear progression. You get to play the game more and get some new gear kill some new mobs. Getting new gear is the natural step in the game.

Did you really want to keep all your old gear like 99 stuff sit around in town and use the game for a chat room because there was really nothing new to get in SoA. I mean I sure didn't want that.

Let me tell you a story about the 75 ToAU-WotG era. . .

There was a time in the when WotG in 2007 came out it only really brought campaign to the game most of the top end stuff was still gotten in salvage ToAU content which came out in 2006 with its 1%~5% drop rates on 35 pieces. People did campaign for solo exp but for the most part WotG for the longest time was ignored because there wasn't any gear or anything you could get out of it except solo exp. Even with the horrible drop rates in Salvage lots of people finished the sets, I too finished almost every salvage piece. The only thing I had to do in FFXI Was long in the game stand around in whitegate because well I was done with salvage I got all the drops in there for just about every piece of armor. We had LS members just paying for the game to use it as a glorified chat room because basically that is all it was, we beat end game in about 2007 had all the drops nothing else left to do.

Since WotG offered almost no gear or endgame progression from 2006 to 2010 the game pretty much stagnated. After a year or so of salvage a lot of groups including mine were pretty much capped out on all the gear we wanted. Yes it took about a year we went every day just about. There were other ToAU events like Einherjar and ZNMs which helped fill out other gear but all this came from ToAU. Players would still ignore WotG except for that 1-2 hours of missions they got every other patch.

From about 2007 to 2010 the game was left in stagnation. Almost quit because there was just nothing to do. All you could do was log in to show off your salvage gear and stand around in whitegate there was really no challenge left in the game. 3 years of no new gear progression or meaningful endgame. Game became a chat room because pretty much most end game players conquered endgame.

That all changed when Abyssea came out in 2010 added some new life in the game finally would could progress our characters past 75, reach 99 and get new gear for them.

See I actually like playing the game getting new gear progressing my character. I don't like expansions like WotG where all the new zones basically get visited once for story missions then get ignored because there is no new gear or anything to get there.

Honestly I do not get the complaining about gear progression, because it gives you something new to work for.

Basically stop complaining about old gear get getting out dated and play the game and have fun. The idea of the item level going up and up is intriguing to me because it will keep me busy getting new gear sets and give me something to do which is play FFXI.

[Afania]

Its just gear in a video game it has no sentimental value to me.

I don't think we need to argue about gear progression anymore, this sentence is the core difference between us. Gears in FFXI have sentimental value to me, that's why I'm paying $12 a month to play the game. Remove that sentimental value then I have 0 interest to play anymore or else it'd be a waste of money. There's tons of free MMO out if I just want another MMORPG with no sentimental value, but I will pick old FFXI over any of other MMORPG(FFXI isn't the only MMORPG I've played, I played other titles too). I've played many MMORPG, FFXI is the only game I have emotional attachment on gears, every other MMO I got bored after 1 month including XIV due to lack of sentimental value, lol.