Delve Upgrade Path Adjustments

[predatory]

I think SE needs to make some revisions to a couple of the delve upgrade paths:

1. The R.Atk path has R.Atk, R.Acc, and agi. If it is a R.Atk path then it should have R.Atk, R.Acc and str, not agi, as str governs R.Atk, it's simply the way the game was designed, there are other games where agi governs R.Atk FFXI is not one of them, nor should it be.

2. The options for the upgrade paths on the Mikinaak armor set should be expanded to include the HP (VIT), MP (VIT), and HP (MP), paths so Pld doesnt get left out in the cold, because let's face it pld gets hit in the face alot, and it could use those paths on the armor it wears, and I'm surprised this was completely overlooked by the development team.

3. The Mondaha Cudgel should have the option to go with the Atk, Acc, and Eva paths
added to it, as it isn't a mage only item, unless of course you count mnks and wars as mages these days.

I don't know how much effort it would take to fix those paths I listed, but I think the effort it took would play well with the people looking to upgrade those items, I know I was pretty disappointed when there was no str option for my Speleogen Bow, and the way it stands there's no real reason to put delve armor on my pld other than for the lol's of standing around trying to look pretty

[Fynlar]

1. The R.Atk path has R.Atk, R.Acc, and agi. If it is a R.Atk path then it should have R.Atk, R.Acc and str, not agi, as str governs R.Atk, it's simply the way the game was designed, there are other games where agi governs R.Atk FFXI is not one of them, nor should it be.

Except they didn't really come up with the names for these upgrade "paths", we did

And AGI does affect ranged attacks still, and is the most prevalent ranged WS mod, so... I'm pretty sure it's better off the way it is anyway

[predatory]

Except they didn't really come up with the names for these upgrade "paths", we did

And AGI does affect ranged attacks still, and is the most prevalent ranged WS mod, so... I'm pretty sure it's better off the way it is anyway

Whiff. Once upon a time the general rule was, you could have all the acc you wanted but without dex you missed alot, same with racc and agi. Att and ratt were governed by str meaning you needed x amount of str for your attacks to be anything other than attacks by a whiffleblall bat no matter how much att or ratt you had. Or let me rephrase it, the ratt, racc and eva (r) paths are all the squid sushi paths, we need a sole sushi or bison steak path put in one of those slots.

Let me copy and paste what I wrote originally because reading not scanning would be best.

1. The R.Atk path has R.Atk, R.Acc, and agi. If it is a R.Atk path then it should have R.Atk, R.Acc and str, not agi, as str governs R.Atk, it's simply the way the game was designed, there are other games where agi governs R.Atk FFXI is not one of them, nor should it be.

[Anjou]

Whiff. Once upon a time the general rule was, you could have all the acc you wanted but without dex you missed alot, same with racc and agi. Att and ratt were governed by str meaning you needed x amount of str for your attacks to be anything other than attacks by a whiffleblall bat no matter how much att or ratt you had. Or let me rephrase it, the ratt, racc and eva (r) paths are all the squid sushi paths, we need a sole sushi or bison steak path put in one of those slots.

Let me copy and paste what I wrote originally because reading not scanning would be best.

1. The R.Atk path has R.Atk, R.Acc, and agi. If it is a R.Atk path then it should have R.Atk, R.Acc and str, not agi, as str governs R.Atk, it's simply the way the game was designed, there are other games where agi governs R.Atk FFXI is not one of them, nor should it be.

No actually he's right Pred,

[Karah]

We wouldn't have this kind of confusion if they would FINALLY start telling us things and stop making us guess/test/retest/convince people they're wrong.

[predatory]

I give up, I played rng from 2004 until a year after the nerf on my first char, now I'm using it as a main again, geuss after all these years I better go back to eating squid sushi because it's somehow better. Not! If agi were somehow better for ratt then SE spent far too much time making the main modifier str on ratt food as evidenced on the following page:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Food_Effects/Ranged_Attack

Anybody who has ever played rng as a main for any length of time will tell you after a certain point you get enough racc and agi through gear, and from that point on you need as much str and ratt as you can get to maximize your damage. There is a reason why rng gears as much str as it possibly can, and that is not because agi is better, it's because rng has gone from a god damage wise, to outputting about as much damage as an eight year old little girl.

Edited to add a second paragraph

[Dragonlord]

Where to begin.... yes, you are correct in that the community thought dex, str etc. behaved very differently back in 2004. We were completely wrong. str affects r.atk, and fSTR2 modifies ranged WS. Fynlar stated agi is a mod for most ranged WS which is also true. Whether agi or str is superior depends on the strength of the mod. Again, while its true that once acc is capped every bit more is useless, the same goes for atk. Once you hit caps, you get 0 gain from either. However, WSC modifiers do not cap, therefor no matter how high your agi, more agi will continue to add to your WS. fSTR2, however, does cap based on your weapon's damage rating, and will also give zero gain after both r.atk and fSTR2 caps have been hit.

It seems that everyone here knows what they're talking about, just not understanding each other. The statement that Path A should be str+r.atk is warranted as that is also how the melee paths are set up. Whether it would actually be better, you'd have to consult spreadsheets. Beyond that, this is an arbitrary arguement.

[Fynlar]

I give up, I played rng from 2004 until a year after the nerf on my first char, now I'm using it as a main again, geuss after all these years I better go back to eating squid sushi because it's somehow better. Not!

Except you weren't eating squid sushi for the AGI, you were doing it for the acc

Not really comparable


Anybody who has ever played rng as a main for any length of time will tell you after a certain point you get enough racc and agi through gear, and from that point on you need as much str and ratt as you can get to maximize your damage. There is a reason why rng gears as much str as it possibly can, and that is not because agi is better, it's because rng has gone from a god damage wise, to outputting about as much damage as an eight year old little girl.

This is just a wild guess here but I would assume that the game has changed somewhat since Those Days

RNGs were usually throwing out Slugwinders, which doesn't have a particularly strong AGI mod and is also modified by STR

Nowadays you've got a lot more of the ranged guys firing Wildfires, Apex Arrows, or Last Stands, all of which have strong AGI modifiers

[predatory]

Wow, now show me where I mentioned weapon skills in either of my previous posts. I just love it when people try to confuse the issue or try to act as I'm talking about something I'm not talking about at all. Good job :mad:

[Demon6324236]

Your talking about a RNG needing STR on the RAtk path, RNG gets RAtk to do more DMG, your best WSs are fully AGI Mods which likely give you more overall DMG because you have a lot of AGI from it rather than a lot of STR, which overall means the AGI is doing a better job than STR would anyways.

[predatory]

It's not like you can't have multiple bows, so with that being the case why in the world wouldn't you have the option to put str on one of those bows? I mean this is not really a hard concept to grasp. I like my Speleogen bow, I really do, but I would like to build another one with a true R.Atk path on it and the option to do so isn't there, even though there is an option to put str on other delve weapons.

Besides that what does it really matter? I mean really? R.Atk +15 on a bow with +162 archery skill doesn't really break the bank, neither does 10 points of str or agi one way or the other, it's about choice and rng wasn't offered a clear choice. Here we'll give you either 15 more r.atk, and 10 more racc that you don't really need, or we'll give you 15 racc and 10 racc that you don't really need, or 15 points of eva (which is probably a good thing), but in order to take any of the three paths on this really nice bow, you have to take agi with it. I don't like being told what I have to accept in irl or ingame, IMO it was just another example of a lazy oversight by the developers.

Now for all you guys telling me I shouldn't have Str on my GD bow, how many of you actually main rng or are you just spouting off an opinion you've read somewhere. I want to play my rng the way I want to play it, and before anyone says well you'd never get to do x event with me, all I have to say is rng doesn't get invited to events on Bahamut other than VW anyway, so who really cares? If it's a path that has main stat R.atk then it should have str not agi.

But the original post wasn't just about the paths for ranged weapons was it? That's just the piece that everyone latched on to for some reason, what about the changes to Mikinaak armor, should paly get a break or not? Because Delve gear really isn't designed to give pld any kind of boost other than damage output, and that's never been in plds realm anyway, but they sure could use a boost in mp, hp, and vit, because those are all needed by pld.

[Fynlar]

Well, it doesn't. If you want STR on your bow so bad, go play with one of these (http://http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Vision_Bow).

Strangely (and hilariously) enough, it has racc on it. Go figure

[predatory]

Lol I collect bows and have all those, and no the irony isn't lost on me either.

[Demon6324236]

In all honesty, I am not telling you that you 'shouldn't have Str on your GD bow', rather, I am explaining why STR would not necessarly be as benefitial to you as the AGI you are so egger to toss aside. STR is a stat which benefits your DMG no matter which way you go with it really, it improves your normal hit DMG and your WS DMG, however, AGI only boosts WS DMG, but by a much higher amount, and with no possible cap, where as STR's effects can cap in both normal DMG & WS DMG situations. That means, AGI should be superior on any and all weaker targets, and will likely be better on stronger targets.

Is this me telling you how to play or what you 'have to accept'? No, this is me trying to explain why they likely made it the way they did. You are looking at a piece of gear and a path made for DMG. All of the best RNG WSs are currently a high quality AGI mod, 2 of the 3 are 100% AGI mods, that means AGI will have a massive effect on them, more than STR will. Due to this fact, its good for DMG, if you need Ranged Accuracy, what effects it? AGI, so its good for DMG & for Accuracy, and it makes you evade more too, making it 3 for 3 on the augment paths. You can continue to complain that its AGI not STR, but really, its a fairly pointless complaint, they did something likely better for your DMG rather than worse, and instead of being grateful, you are complaining they didn't give you choice?!



So far as PLD goes. If you have the resources to get a Mikinaak body to rank 15, you should have the resources to get a Cizin Body and a +2 stone, which will get you more DEF, more PDT, more HP, more MP, and even the same VIT provided they even gave a VIT augment to the Mikinaak body, since Miki has a base of 15, and Cizin has a base of 25. So the argument on that piece specifically, is bad, because its just not really useful or practical. PLD got screwed by Delve in the respect there were no PDT augments, and hardly any PDT stats, since only the body, which I just ruled out, has PDT on it. The only way you could fix Mikinaak gear to be worth something to PLD outside of DMG, for actual tanking, would be to make a PDT/MDT/DT path with more than 4% PDT on it, or some amount of MDT/DT, though that is all subject to sets, because the greater DEF/MEVA/MDEF from Cizin could still render it weaker, even though Cizin is easier to obtain. The obvious work around would be to add DEF/MDEF/EVA/MEVA to the augment paths, but that's all a matter of adding new paths then adding them to an entire set of gear, taking away other augments for other jobs, and bringing more jobs closer to PLD in tanking.

Sorry to rant.

[FaeQueenCory]

So far as PLD goes. If you have the resources to get a Mikinaak body to rank 15, you should have the resources to get a Cizin Body and a +2 stone, which will get you more DEF, more PDT, more HP, more MP, and even the same VIT provided they even gave a VIT augment to the Mikinaak body, since Miki has a base of 15, and Cizin has a base of 25. So the argument on that piece specifically, is bad, because its just not really useful or practical. PLD got screwed by Delve in the respect there were no PDT augments, and hardly any PDT stats, since only the body, which I just ruled out, has PDT on it. The only way you could fix Mikinaak gear to be worth something to PLD outside of DMG, for actual tanking, would be to make a PDT/MDT/DT path with more than 4% PDT on it, or some amount of MDT/DT, though that is all subject to sets, because the greater DEF/MEVA/MDEF from Cizin could still render it weaker, even though Cizin is easier to obtain. The obvious work around would be to add DEF/MDEF/EVA/MEVA to the augment paths, but that's all a matter of adding new paths then adding them to an entire set of gear, taking away other augments for other jobs, and bringing more jobs closer to PLD in tanking.
EXACTLY this.
And further, why is there no cure potency for the club? It's pretty crap for a whm... I guess.... a GEO might like the MAB path... but I think the AF weapon would actually give more usefulness.

Basically, why are there so little variance with these augments????
No MAB on the gun?? But... CORs like that....
No -perp on the smn staff?? Great ANOTHER macro-only piece...
No +cure% on the club?? Tamaxchi for EVERYONE!
No -PDT/MDT anywhere???

BUT the good news... I'm pretty sure it'd be easy to add more paths to that NPC's talk table...
And who knows... they might already have planned for more paths...
There's gonna be 7 WKRs.... so it's a safe to assume that there'll be 7 Delve fractures too.

[predatory]

Only 7 Wkrs? Won't that put us short one element?

But back to the issue at hand, why not just open all paths to all pieces, and let people choose whichever path they want for each individual piece to match their unique play style?

[Demon6324236]

I would be fine with opening all paths, but it wouldn't matter much for most of it all, since few jobs can get any use out of the things they are not already getting as options.

[FaeQueenCory]

Only 7 Wkrs? Won't that put us short one element?

But back to the issue at hand, why not just open all paths to all pieces, and let people choose whichever path they want for each individual piece to match their unique play style?
There's been asides on various dev posts about the WKRs and Delve and stuff...
But the easiest way is right in the game: The WKR guy tells you there are 7 Nakuaals in Adoulin.

ANNNDDD... for those of us who like the spoilers of Amano's pretty Adoulin art thingy...
The next WKR Nakuaal to be implemented will be a giant ice tiger.

But the 7th isn't in the pic...
SO....
Who knows what it will be.
Maybe a giant non-elemental dragon? Maybe a wierd elemental thing that has phases between light and dark? Or maybe it's some sort of terrestial avatar (aka god) that fluxes between non-element and/or light and dark.

That 7th one we know 0 about.
But Amano's concept art has spoiled that the 6th is a giant ice tiger. Google it.

[predatory]

I know the spoilers are in the game, but as much as they've been shuffling things around, one can only hope for an 8th. WKR is actually the one thing I really like about SoA. I love things where huge amounts of people can participate so this is right up my alley

[predatory]

I would be fine with opening all paths, but it wouldn't matter much for most of it all, since few jobs can get any use out of the things they are not already getting as options.

Right, but blue and rdm and pld can use the Halachuinic Sword and would probably benefit from one of the mage type paths if those chose to play it like that. Rng can use the Aphotic Kukri, but can't take advantage of the ranged paths. Drk is the only job that can use the Dimmet Scythe but there's no path available for int or mab. Bst gets Brethren Axe, but there is no path for bst pets whatsoever, and I'm sure other people could add to the list I just made.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone if you like the paths the way they are well then good, what I'm suggesting is they need to tweak the paths so more jobs can take advantage of these great weapons to make them even better, and what's wrong with that idea?

[FaeQueenCory]

I know the spoilers are in the game, but as much as they've been shuffling things around, one can only hope for an 8th. WKR is actually the one thing I really like about SoA. I love things where huge amounts of people can participate so this is right up my alley
I love the WKRs too!
(though I also have to add that Yorcia skirmish is a favorite of mine too! ^^ It reminds me of defending OPs from beastmen from long ago.)

Also here's that pretty concept art I mentioned... and it seems I misremembered... ice LION is next. Not tiger lol.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130113182542/finalfantasy/images/8/87/FFXI_Amano_Seekers_of_Adoulin.png

Bluhbluhbluh. Tried to get the image to resize and link for the fullsize... but stupid BBC codes wouldn't work... :/
Apparently it's only normal sized on the preview and gets shrunken on the actual thread...
So... have this really big HD pic of Amano's Adoulin Concept Art!! (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130113182542/finalfantasy/images/8/87/FFXI_Amano_Seekers_of_Adoulin.png)
Link^

All them serpentine dragons makes me think that the 7th could be a dragon...