FFXI R/M/E Thoughts:

[Shaiera]

RME, these weapons take an extreme amount of time and effort to get, as opposed to much of the new-contents’ weapons. So many of us weapon holders do feel - “Hey, I’ve done hours of farming and grinding to have this ultimate weapon; why should you, someone whose done not even but a small fraction of the time and work I’ve invested into this, have anything at all, even close, to comparing to this achievement?”

These weren’t just ultimate weapons; they were long-term goals; something a person could look back on and be proud of. Honestly I think if a person can’t see that; either, they’ve never achieved any of these weapons, or they had bought the Gil - had someone do all the work for them. Most that have done the work and earned these legit have fair strong grounds to stand on, feeling they’re work shouldn’t be tossed aside for 2-3 weeks of new content, if that.

I do understand the Dev.’s other point-of-view on the subject though. If new content doesn’t offer better things, no one will have a reason to do it, or those of us with RME will blast through the new stuff without any real effort. On that point I do agree, that makes sense. Here’s what I thought of to maybe meet both sides and bridge the gap of this chasm.

RME should continue to have upgrades via Trial or Quest, however; it shouldn’t be like it was building it to level 99. While building my Relic, it sat in my Mog House Storage unless being upgraded, then, right back in there. It was only until level 75 I ever actually equipped it, and not because it was viable, but because the Trials said, “Hey kill stuff with this gimp weapon ‘X’ amount of times using the unlocked Weapon Skill”. Only at level 90 did it become viable; here is where I think a good change could be made.

The level 99 R/ME/s could be upgraded via the new content, I’d be doing the same things all the other players are doing for the new content gear and weapon, but those same methods could be used to further upgrade the weapon’s stats. So I’m not all alone soloing in Dynamis or Abyssea for example. I’m actually playing and doing content with the other players; already a much more enjoyable thought.

Finally these weapons have a unique WS; if that unique WS on these weapons is awesome enough to offer a cool Aftermath or doing say, a double-light burst finishing off a Skillchain; that makes them already epic. Just make it so players can work on the DMG, ACC, ATT stats or whatever it is their class would need. I’m not saying these should always be the best in the game, but on par or equal to the best weapon(s) that are currently out at the time. The work would still be involved to upgrade to that new point of content or next level released via new content, and no work is lost because you retain that special unique skill that cannot be done without having earned the epic weapon in question. Also, that way you’re not given a free-pass into new content since you’d still need to make effort in upgrade to stay current with the other stats. Something as simple as this Rare/Ex token is needed to upgrade a new content weapon, or a 99 RME as an example. My favorite part of these ideas that I’ve had is being with my friends, new and old players; doing content together; not soloing alone in an old area. While continuing to build my character soaring to new heights!

I do apologies for the rather large wall-of-text but that is how I think; the whole picture, so to try and share the thoughts I had, I had a lot to say.

[Daemon]

The way I see it, SoA is the current focus right now and that's why REM has been pushed aside for the time being. It doesn't make sense to implement REM right now during the moment SoA is being built. Otherwise time would be wasted making an adjustment only to be outdated again later.

On top of that I think drawing attention from SoA would do more harm than good until people get use to playing the new expansion.

Had REM been fixed before SoA is complete the expansion wouldn't be populated as much due to scattering the community to various parts of the game.

That being my point of view I think the DEV TEAM will implement upgrades when the time is right.

So hang in there :) I think they know already how the community feels about it.

[Dragonlord]

R/M was originally inteded to offer the best weapons for their class (even if some fell short in reality). These were the long term goals that the dedicated players had to reach for. Emps came along offering quicker alternatives for a top tier weapon, and most only needed lv 85/90 to be viable. That vision of the game has shifted.

Now the dev team wants a progressive gear gain, unlike 75 cap where things were all side-grades. The problem with the change is the people that spent X hours getting their long term goal, then having a gold plated version handed to everyone that cares to. Some got to enjoy their weapons for years, some only a couple months or less.

The dev team really only has 2 choices. They can continue progression, keep implementing new weps that are stronger than the last. But, the only way for both R/E/M and new age weapons to co-exist is for the R/E/M to be able to be upgraded to a point where they are slightly better than new age weps. This way, those that put the time and effort into the R/E/M weapons get their advantage, but others wont be left out of groups just because they don't have them.

[Shaiera]

I agree; I would like them to keep upgrades available to R/M/Es – have them continue to be part of the game, definitely. You were spot-on with some only having a couple months; two in my case.

With items now having an ilvl added to them and almost all the older content being made much easier – soloing CoP just as an off the top of my head example. FFXI, to me, is starting to move over to the WoW model, which I’m hoping is more just in my head, rather than being the big plans for the future.

I’m not meaning to bash on WoW, it is a fun MMO; I’ve play from time to time. The thing I’m just not to keen on is how fast things continue to change; by the time you’re finished with a gear-set, like just having finished it. Here’s the next thing and it’s so much better than what you’ve just finished, your finished set isn’t viable anymore, if you’re lucky it has a nice graphic so you can at least use it for transmogrification (Give your new gear the graphic of your old gear).

Looking back at the level 75 cap, TOAU, WOTG, CoP, all of these offered gear options - many different ways to gear you’re character - Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, Sky, Salvage, Sea; all of these are great examples. The bottom-line there were many events you could do to be a well geared player at level 75. Now it feels like you must go for this one weapon and this one body-armor; which is WoW.

Really, the only thing to do is wait and see, but in truth I think WoW is better at being WoW; I’d like FFXI to be a bit more how it was, rather than where it seems to be going. There were so many options of content and things you could do, now it seems the only option to do is SoA; if you’re not doing that, you’re not remotely close on stats and gear – you’re not going to do well using weapons and armor exclusively from Abyssea for example.

Please continue having methods of upgrades Dev!

Allow upgrades to mission rewards! (Ex: Raja’s Ring, Moonshade Earring)
Bring on the AFv1+3, AFv2+3, and AFv3+3!
KEEP R/M/E!!!

[Spectreman]

This is a joke. So you guys are saying that old content must reward better loot forever? Like your job is done permenetly since you got your R/M/E? Nobody forced you to go after R/M/E and now theres a healthy option for everyone to be geared in this game.

So your proposal to SE is to force a dwindling playerbase to go after R/M/E weapons, so everyone has to go through that ordeal like you did (because ou wanted to do that, no one forced you) to be able to be decently geared?

Because we all know that the community has no space for 2nd best gear for endgame. So if depends on ppl like you every DD will have to go get a R/M/E weapon to be accepted for new content.

Genius.

[MarkovChain]

Because there are no requirements to join alliances atm lol. I think it's a good thing that they revive RME. At least it gives something to do, not just staring at the log in hope you get to join a n-th delve boss run from which you don't need anything anyway [because you only need to kill them once right SE ?]. The only alternative would be the release of adoulin versions of ultimate weapons, which they failed to do so far. Also far game balance you can not put a single KI drop on par with the hundred of hours that building a RME cost. If you don't want to spend hours farming your weapon that's fine, you still have the delve boss weapons - they 'll come second most likely.

Someone tell SE to fix the riftcinder/dross supply because it's a headache. Level 99 empy are definitely harder to build than mythics atm. They need to tone down the difficulty of Ig-alima & co because right now it's impossible to low man (I didn't try a lot though, as even at 3M, buying rifticinder for our second level 99 DDB/GH bard was the fastest still).

[Dragonlord]

This is a joke. So you guys are saying that old content must reward better loot forever? Like your job is done permenetly since you got your R/M/E? Nobody forced you to go after R/M/E and now theres a healthy option for everyone to be geared in this game.

So your proposal to SE is to force a dwindling playerbase to go after R/M/E weapons, so everyone has to go through that ordeal like you did (because ou wanted to do that, no one forced you) to be able to be decently geared?

Because we all know that the community has no space for 2nd best gear for endgame. So if depends on ppl like you every DD will have to go get a R/M/E weapon to be accepted for new content.

Genius.

You should read the pros and cons of REM upgrades vs. leaving it as is before putting words in peoples mouths. The problem is a new age system that constantly outdates old content on a game that for a decade was all about small progressions and longevity. Its a major clash, and what we're going through right now is the fallout. People have their own opinions, mostly formed on how long/intensely they have played the game. No one forced people to do anything, but if you spent 500+ hours or w/e on a mythic weapon, only to have it obsoleted soon after, i think you'd be pissed about your time lost as well.

[Shaiera]

It’s hard to have one definitive solution; most likely the reason Dev. has been taking so long to have just that; a solution. Here’s how I feel about it - players that have chosen to do the more difficult challenges should have the better rewards for the effort. It’s true no one said you must do these challenges and it was, in fact, their choice to do them; no one forced them too. It should be obvious the reason they did make that choice is because they chose to not just take on a tough challenge but they chose to go all out for the best the game did have to offer. If you’re not willing to go the extra mile, you will end up with less, that’s how it works in real-life with most things, why should lazy people just be handed things; better things?

FFXI was released in 2002; from that time until 2010, 8 years - almost a decade; there were tough challenging items to go for. I remember it took me a couple months of doing Sea with my linkshell to get my Faith Torque; it took me months to achieve Black Belt via HNM camping and an occasional KSNM 99. That is the kind of game this was for almost a decade. There were many gear alternatives; I didn’t need Black Belt or Faith Torque, I wanted them; not only for their awesomeness but for the stature that came with it. A person can admit it or not, but I know when I saw other players, which were few, with those things, I really wanted to get there too, I could have settled for nearly gear equivalents and I would have still been a great player. Given the two options, I chose to push myself and try to reach what they had achieved; I knew many that were not up to that kind of a challenge, and I never looked down on them, we both made our own choices, simple is that. I think anyone that says you’re not a real Monk unless you have Black Belt should be punched in the face and called an idiot. None the less, I was proud that I did earn and achieve my Black Belt and I was happy to help others to do the same.

For the majority of this game’s years, those items were top notch, just as two examples. I even did the hours of raising my Guard Skill anyone who has soloed to cap Guard Skill can agree with me that it, at the time, was not an easy thing to do, and it took a lot of time. Even leveling to level 75 was something to be proud of on a job in my opinion, compared to a lot of games.

Here is Present Game:

- Get to level 30 and afk in Abyssea to reach level 99. Leveling to 99 is just a formality; it’s like giving someone a hand-shake. It’s nothing to be proud of when you can get to level to 99 in less than a day.

- 90% of most of the gear is dated and obsolete via old content. Faith Torque +7 H2H is garbage to a weapon that has 60+ on it, same with a Guard Torque with +7 Guard, what is that to a +60 or higher on a weapon? I’ll answer that, it’s garbage!

- There is a huge Magian Trial chart of people have dumped hours into for other weapons that are obsolete; I don’t mean R/M/E I mean good alternatives at the time before SoA.

- Parry and Guard were reworked, it is no longer taking weeks of long solo to cap the skill it can be done in a single day with two Atma and a train of Mandragora pummeling you for a couple hours. That time invested in a job showed a difference between an occasional Monk-player to someone who dedicated to the job.

So in summary, yea the population has taken a huge nose-dive, taking nearly 8 years of achievements away from players is a huge slap to the face; it’s not an astonishing breakthrough on why player-base is declining. So presently I feel I can’t really be that proud of my Guard being capped or the fact that all my items are dated; those that aren’t are much easier to get than when I did it, like Black Belt for example.

My Relic is literally the last thing I can be proud of, and I do feel it should still be top-notch, even if by only +4 DMG when these weapons their adding are getting bonuses well over 100.

So that’s my long-winded answer; we veteran players have had so much lost and taken away to make FFXI super easy for the new players. Most players just left and said the hell with it, but those of us still here that have dealt with all of the fallout have turned the other cheek on a lot of it, but R/M/E is where I think that line needs be drawn, how much more achievement should just be handed to the players that wine, “Hey I’m new and I want that!”.

DEV. KEEP R/M/E!!!
Give us something to reach and strive towards, at least one thing we can still be proud to have achieved~!

[Damane]

This is a joke. So you guys are saying that old content must reward better loot forever? Like your job is done permenetly since you got your R/M/E? Nobody forced you to go after R/M/E and now theres a healthy option for everyone to be geared in this game.

So your proposal to SE is to force a dwindling playerbase to go after R/M/E weapons, so everyone has to go through that ordeal like you did (because ou wanted to do that, no one forced you) to be able to be decently geared?

Because we all know that the community has no space for 2nd best gear for endgame. So if depends on ppl like you every DD will have to go get a R/M/E weapon to be accepted for new content.

Genius.

i think you are understanding things wrong. i dont think vertical gear progression is bad, but the current rate of vertical gear progression we have atm is TOO fast for a game like FFXI that eats alot of time up just to organizing a group/ally to do the content. Imho they should do slight vertical progression jumps every 8-10 months while filling the gaps in between with decent horizontal sidegrades to specialize in. atm we are looking at vertical progression jump since adoulin was released on every 1-2months which is way too fast, people cant keep up. first skirmish, then delve, then skirmish 2.0 and everythign inbetween. People are haveing a hard time keeping up. I am caped on delve and skirmish 2.0 gear, but I also ran/run with a very good endgame shell.
The problem is you cant keep that up for every 2 months, it becomes a giant pain in the ass. Not to mention the huge inventory mess and at some point you would start wondeirng yourself why even do the hassle when you can restart in 2 months with it AGAIN.

EDIT: on the REM subject: I dont think REM weapons should be made overpowered, but they should be on par with boss delve weapons or very very very slightly ahead of them.

[detlef]

Here's what people are looking for:
-Assurance that many, many (many) hours of effort making existing RME are not wasted.
-A reason to make new RME (which would help to revive the economy by giving people something to buy and sell, would revive currently dead content, and most importantly gives people something to do).

How powerful SE decides to make RME and how easy the upgrades are remains to be seen. What I'm personally looking for is an across-the-board adjustment that makes competitive or slightly better than Delve mega boss weapons. I think that making them much weaker or much stronger than Delve weapons would be a mistake.

[FaeQueenCory]

RME should continue to have upgrades via Trial or Quest, however; it shouldn’t be like it was building it to level 99. While building my Relic, it sat in my Mog House Storage unless being upgraded, then, right back in there. It was only until level 75 I ever actually equipped it, and not because it was viable, but because the Trials said, “Hey kill stuff with this gimp weapon ‘X’ amount of times using the unlocked Weapon Skill”. Only at level 90 did it become viable; here is where I think a good change could be made.

The level 99 R/ME/s could be upgraded via the new content, I’d be doing the same things all the other players are doing for the new content gear and weapon, but those same methods could be used to further upgrade the weapon’s stats. So I’m not all alone soloing in Dynamis or Abyssea for example. I’m actually playing and doing content with the other players; already a much more enjoyable thought.
I agree. I actually made a post about continuing Magian trials into iLvs....
But it didn't get a huge amount of positive feedback... because I don't think ppl were remembering that you upgrade REMs via that...............
And Daemon showed up to say that continuing them into iLvs would make ppl not make REMs anymore... cause... that makes sense. 9_9

I would actually prefer this over what they are doing (making the 99 and 99-2s tiered to be equal to 119 Delve weapons for Mythics, and equal to 113 upgradeable Delve gear/skirmish +1s for Empys and Relics. Roughly.).
Because mechanically... unless they also make the 99s to actually HAVE the iLv... and not just be the same numbers... (this includes the "fake" skill but I'm pretty sure that was always a given that they'd be given that too) You'll see a bunch of mechanical gimpness.
The hardest hit would be the BST and DRG.... Because their pets are dependent upon their weapons having an iLv.
But DRK, BLU, and any other hybrid that I'm overlooking would also feel the pain from no longer having the "fake" melee skill help determine their Macc, which is something that only happens when the weapon actually HAS an iLv... if it just had "fake" skill... the math would still be using the basic 99 calculations... which doesn't include the "fake" skill Macc thing.
So even if the REMs get the "fake" skill... it wouldn't help any job that needs that for their Macc. Because it's ignored by the calculations due to a lack of iLv.

So, personally, I'd prefer some simple trials "have a bottle of translucent slurry" or "get 50 basic drops from mobs in Adoulin".... but none of this thousands nonsense.

[Anjou]

Here's what people are looking for:
-Assurance that many, many (many) hours of effort making existing RME are not wasted.
-A reason to make new RME (which would help to revive the economy by giving people something to buy and sell, would revive currently dead content, and most importantly gives people something to do).

How powerful SE decides to make RME and how easy the upgrades are remains to be seen. What I'm personally looking for is an across-the-board adjustment that makes competitive or slightly better than Delve mega boss weapons. I think that making them much weaker or much stronger than Delve weapons would be a mistake.

Because then the ole "RME ONLY" thing will return to FFXI, and the more casual playerbase is gonna get shunned from content is RME's are made too powerful over Delve weapons.

I mean no disrespect to an RME holder (As a matter of fact I'm building Annihilator -my first relic ever-) but come on, the only version of ultimate weapons that deserves to be shockingly powerful are Mythics, -because- look at the prerequisites for them. Gotta kill the kings, gotta beat all of the assault missions, beat all of TOAU, beat the snot out of Einherjar/Nyzul and Salvage, and let's not get started on the 30k Alexandrites.

Relics are just time consuming, they are not -hard- anymore, empyreans is just farming the popsets for the bosses over and over, which is again not -that- hard.

Mythic is legitimately hard still with finding people to do assaults with, to do einherjar and not get booted or murdered in T3 by the bosses.

I say this

Relics and emps be on par with delve boss weapons, and mythics should be slightly more powerful than all of them.

Everyone can be happy that way.

[Demon6324236]

I agree, and since Mythics most likely will never become any kind of common, no real fear of Mythic only requirements with people, since there are only a handful of them around compared to R/Es.

[detlef]

Relics are clearly the easiest and cheapest weapons to make, but when you take 95/99 into account, Empyreans aren't much easier to make than Mythics.

[Shaiera]

I can agree with Mythic weapons being the most difficult; before the level cap raised Relic weapons were no walk in the park either; I knew players that took 4 to 5 years to make a Relic. Now Relics have become much easier than they once were, now that you don’t need an entire alliance to get currency.

Mythic I think, no matter what the time frame, has always been the most difficult to obtain; however, they’ve always been relatively equal to one another in stats– most R/M/E weapon options to the same weapon type are relatively equal in stats.

Looking on FFXIAH, I can see without question Mythic are still very difficult to obtain, however I will have to disagree with Relic being easier than Empyrean. Relic took the players that achieved it pre level cap a few years to obtain. Also, you can stay in Abyssea all day unlike Salvage or Dynamis which are static time frames; you can see a lot more Empyrean weapons created than Relic, even with Relic having had a few years of a head start. I personally found making my Verethragna easier than making Spharai, though not much easier.

References:

Empyrean Weapons:
http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/empyrean

Relic Weapons:
http://www.ffxiah.com/relics

I honestly would like to see Mythic acquisition revamped to be a bit more realistic, I love a challenge but I can’t help but think on the super rare occasion that I see one should I say congratulations for making it or congratulations on winning the mog bonanza. I don’t mean that disrespectfully to those that have earned a Mythic, you’re amazing for doing it; I just mean to say I can’t imagine myself having one unless I won the bonanza (lol).

-

Conclusion:

Which is more difficult to obtain really doesn’t matter at all. What does matter is that Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic shouldn’t be out-classed or even made obsolete by weapons that take only a couple weeks to get. Also variety is awesome, does every single class need to go for the same one and only one weapon because “it da best”? I like to see variety in characters and gear, having unique play-style and skills. It’s a much better picture than everyone going for the same one weapon and same one armor set.

There needs to be more to look forward to and do beyond just Delve – Dev. KEEP R/M/E~!!!

[Anjou]

I can agree with Mythic weapons being the most difficult; before the level cap raised Relic weapons were no walk in the park either; I knew players that took 4 to 5 years to make a Relic. Now Relics have become much easier than they once were, now that you don’t need an entire alliance to get currency.

Mythic I think, no matter what the time frame, has always been the most difficult to obtain; however, they’ve always been relatively equal to one another in stats– most R/M/E weapon options to the same weapon type are relatively equal in stats.

Looking on FFXIAH, I can see without question Mythic are still very difficult to obtain, however I will have to disagree with Relic being easier than Empyrean. Relic took the players that achieved it pre level cap a few years to obtain. Also, you can stay in Abyssea all day unlike Salvage or Dynamis which are static time frames; you can see a lot more Empyrean weapons created than Relic, even with Relic having had a few years of a head start. I personally found making my Verethragna easier than making Spharai, though not much easier.

References:

Empyrean Weapons:
http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/empyrean

Relic Weapons:
http://www.ffxiah.com/relics

I honestly would like to see Mythic acquisition revamped to be a bit more realistic, I love a challenge but I can’t help but think on the super rare occasion that I see one should I say congratulations for making it or congratulations on winning the mog bonanza. I don’t mean that disrespectfully to those that have earned a Mythic, you’re amazing for doing it; I just mean to say I can’t imagine myself having one unless I won the bonanza (lol).

-

Conclusion:

Which is more difficult to obtain really doesn’t matter at all. What does matter is that Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic shouldn’t be out-classed or even made obsolete by weapons that take only a couple weeks to get. Also variety is awesome, does every single class need to go for the same one and only one weapon because “it da best”? I like to see variety in characters and gear, having unique play-style and skills. It’s a much better picture than everyone going for the same one weapon and same one armor set.

There needs to be more to look forward to and do beyond just Delve – Dev. KEEP R/M/E~!!!

They are keeping RME, the update is in November to boost their power, however if it goes back to the old "RME ONLY" thing for players to do content, I'm going to be honest and say I will quit this game, I finally get to do endgame content (Across the entire spectrum) and if I get shunned, I'm sorry but I want nothing to do with the community after that point.

[Dragonlord]

They are keeping RME, the update is in November to boost their power, however if it goes back to the old "RME ONLY" thing for players to do content, I'm going to be honest and say I will quit this game, I finally get to do endgame content (Across the entire spectrum) and if I get shunned, I'm sorry but I want nothing to do with the community after that point.

This is not a black and white as you are making it out to be. The reason the community went "REM onry" during VWNM era is because they were the only comparable weapons at that time, except for the few super-rare VWNM drops like borealis. In this instance, REM users were fair margin above others. However, this margin was miniscule compared to the massive jumps between ilvl weapons. So really, that problem is only more pronounced now. Bringing REM up just over the power of the top tier ilvl weps will not turn the community back to "REM only" mentality because there will be comparable alternatives. Of course, there's always ignorants and idiots that will only want the best and shout for hours on end for the top grade, but that can't be helped regardless of game design.

[predatory]

This is not a black and white as you are making it out to be. The reason the community went "REM onry" during VWNM era is because they were the only comparable weapons at that time, except for the few super-rare VWNM drops like borealis. In this instance, REM users were fair margin above others. However, this margin was miniscule compared to the massive jumps between ilvl weapons. So really, that problem is only more pronounced now. Bringing REM up just over the power of the top tier ilvl weps will not turn the community back to "REM only" mentality because there will be comparable alternatives. Of course, there's always ignorants and idiots that will only want the best and shout for hours on end for the top grade, but that can't be helped regardless of game design.

This. Back when Delve first came out there were people yelling for NNI but only wanting Delve geared players to attend, my response was to /yell right back how did you do NNI before Delve? And why Do NNI if you're Delve geared anyway?"

[FaeQueenCory]

They are keeping RME, the update is in November to boost their power, however if it goes back to the old "RME ONLY" thing for players to do content, I'm going to be honest and say I will quit this game, I finally get to do endgame content (Across the entire spectrum) and if I get shunned, I'm sorry but I want nothing to do with the community after that point.
Don't worry. It won't be REM only anymore.
Mythics will be roughly equal to the 119 delve boss weapons.
Empys and relics will be the next tier lower: equal to the augmented delve drops, 113. (and I supposed Skirmish +1s too)

So at worse you'll see Delve&Mythic only.
But most likely you'll be seeing DREMS DD. (Delve-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-Skirmish+1)

And seeing as how RE and the upgradeable Delve and Skirmish+1 weapons will be roughly the same tier...
Only the most elitist will demand Delve <<Mega Boss>> or Mythic only. (though obviously there is a HUGE benefit for Delve runs to desire DmbM over the others... but most ppl will just ask for DREMS)

[Shaiera]

I feel there is more to consider here than R/M/Es being updated to the ranks of SoA. It’s not only comparing Months, some even Years, of time versus a couple days to a week of farming to get weapons. If it was only that to consider, the longer tougher journey should still yield the better rewards, otherwise what’s the point. If R/M/E were equal to Delve I’d only do Delve, it is way less work for the same thing as an example, and like most people I would take the path of least resistance for the same thing too.

Consider This:

1. If R/M/E remains top tier people will do those events needed to create them. Players can farm the various currencies for either making the weapon of their choice, or simply do it as a means to make them Gil to buy the other things they’d like to have. That would create/revive various markets. Interestingly enough it would create Jobs, or in game terms; create things to do besides only having the new content – SoA. I know guys that have paid to have two or more active accounts just to hit Salvage and Dynamis multiple times in a day, because they either were saving for something big or were bustin’ ass to get their weapon made faster. A lot of the more hardcore players are uninterested in a venture they can defeat in less than two weeks and all other endeavors they could choose to undertake currently have no point since 95% of the older content is useless gear currently.

2. R/M/E shouldn’t annihilate Delve or other weapons by a huge amount, I’d say approximately higher than 4% area but no larger than 8%. Somewhere in that area would be a good range, you go much higher than that, you create the stigma that you’re useless unless you have R/M/E and, to a point, that could be correct depending on the event. Going lower than that 4% would make the other avenue not worth the work. The 4%-8% is a general explanation of what I’m trying to describe; it can be calculated into the Base DMG, ACC, STR bonuses or whatever the instance, it’s a general point of reference to describe relation between Delve and R/M/E not to be taken in literal context. Possibly even having equal stats to Delve weapons just rework the built-in WSs and Aftermaths to where that is what makes them better; the bottom-line – make them better, but not so much that they’re the only thing you should be using.

3. Finally, you cannot get anywhere without knowing where you’re coming from; the vast majority of this games lifetime has been around building up gradually and slowly to greater things, not just R/M/E pre SoA. I mean equipment; things from a Faith Torque having +7 H2H-Skill versus a weapon having over +60 H2H-Skill on it. It’s not just about going back to make these weapons good again. It’s about a lot of the old content being relevant. I would do Campaign/Besieged if the things I could purchase were good and had a point, I would go to Sea if the mobs were up to level and offered a challenge with good gear options – what a breath of fresh-air that would be, to have 20+ events to choose from, all being relevant and offering good upgrades and opportunities, that sounds like a good game! From a programmers point-of-view that’s super easy to code a merchant’s purchasing table and increase the level on all the monsters in event zones. They should do that!

-

Conclusion:

Development needs to stop pushing to the next big thing and remember – one of the core things that defined FFXI as a game is that it took time and effort for anything really worth while; there was NEVER a quick snap your fingers reward for anything. You had to earn you’re Inventory, Zone Access, Skill-Ups, Levels and Jobs.

Many players loved working hard and getting that big pay-off at the end of the journey. This new gear and equipment being shot out so fast you can’t even finish it before the next thing is out IS NOT fun and exciting, it’s insulting.

Again, looking back; it goes against the core principle of the games design; it teaches this, “Do only what’s quick and easiest to achieve, because doing anything that takes any long amount of time will be dated before you can even finish it, and its predecessor will be along within a few weeks. So you’ll need to be finished to start working on this next one.” (Can this be FFXI not World of Warcaft?)

-

I personally loved earning my Black Belt, Faith Torque, and Spharai for examples. For years they were amazing and I spent many months (years) to obtain them all. When SoA hit and these weapons and gear came out, I originally said it was like a kick in the balls. I take that back; it was so much worse; a kick in the balls hurts like hell, but it’s over within a day or two. That was having 8 years of achievement obliterated in the blink of an eye. Presently when I get to thinking about it, that loss is still there. Many friends that I have quit FFXI because of that very same loss I’m describing. I would have rather been kicked in the balls…

Development, remember where we came from, that’s the only way to make smart choices on where we need to be going – quality over quantity; yes, please. Enough of this, “Oh, it’s been three weeks; lets release some new gear better than what we just released.” That’s not fun, not interesting, not exciding; it makes 90% of us players not want to do anything because whatever we start turns out to be a dated waste of time.

[Keeley]

I think that some of you have underestimated how many fiends play this game. Long gone are the days where players are willing to accept that this game is 'real life'. Content that was created a decade ago should not still be relevant today! Things change, move on! If REM's come even close to fracture weapons, you will see only REM's for shouts. Anyone with a fracture or crafted weapon will be fail, and you will be left out.

Let's think about this. Relic weapons have a hidden affect that add 2-3 times the damage to regular hits that proc 13% of the time or greater. All relics have an added affect which proc at a decent rate. Most of them have as good or better weapon skills than the ones in which you can unlock by merits. Most have either a significant accuracy or attack boost. So, now SE is going to boost the base damage to match fracture weapons AND super boost their attack and accuracy too to stay competitive?! Yes, it will be REM only and if you do not have one maxed out you will be excluded from events and told to go home. Not only that, but it will kill new content and make old content even more boring than it already is.

What will we get to look forward to? We get to fight over mobs in crowded dynamis areas again! We get to fight RMT's hoarding Abby mobs! We get to spend hours spamming an instanced area because it is full! What FFXI needs is new content, not revamps of outdated equipment.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, there are tons of people with level 99 Empyrean or Mythic weapons, except there isn't, Relic weapons are the only common 99s, at best, which means that it would likely be Delve Boss Weapons, and Relics, that are primarily asked for.

Besides that, your talking about killing all of the new content? No, why? Simple, armor, accessories, everything besides weapons that they drop. Weapons are a single thing, most jobs only need 1~2 of them and nothing more, in the case of my MNK I needed Oats, do I have any need for any other H2H in the game for my MNK? No, none, they are the only ones, so I will not bother with the others, simple as that. Give me Relic H2H, and it will be the same, I will get the top H2H, nothing more. Does that mean once I have Oats all content dies? No, Skirmish and Delve as well as WKs have a ton of armor to obtain, much of which has its own uses for different things, and for that reason, keeps the content alive.

Even if they update RMEs, WoEs, and Magians, basically eliminating every weapon from Adoulin as viable choices, Adoulin gear, as in Armor/Accessories, would be more than enough to keep the content alive & active.

[Keeley]

Yes, it will kill all content. Here is why and how it happens. Most of the people who accomplish things on this game effectively, and I am talking about more difficult content, are the fiends. They are the people who live on this game. They will have the 99 REM's or w/e is the current trend. They will only accept people that are geared like them. Here is how the cycle works. New content is released. They spend every waking moment rushing through it. They finish it. They become bored and cry. New content released. Cycle repeats. Getting a REM quickly is nothing to them. They will speed through it or buy it with money.

Unfortunately, most of the population are not fiends. They are people who have things to do outside FFXI. Since they cannot keep pace with the fiends, they fall behind and then eventually get left behind. We eventually end up where we are now. All the good players have everything and all the players that are decent or horrid, cannot seem to accomplish much. With at least fracture weapons being competitive it keeps the gap between these problems minimal. It also compounds the problem that if you do not have said weapon for said job, you are stuck on a job you do not like. Then you start to see the failure problems we see today.

As long as SE does not add weapon skill +, parry +, and guard + to REM's, then there may be a chance. If they do, then they will break the game and they may as well just let us do whatever we want and stop charging us a fee.

[Shaiera]

I have to ask how 99 R/M/E can be considered “Content that was created a decade ago”. It is true Dynamis, as an example, has been out for many years, however; we’re not talking about level 75 Relic, Mythic, or Empyrean. We’re talking about the level 99 R/M/E; the ones that were very new and relevant. It was well after level cap increases that they became available, and even after that, the weapons were able to be obtained but it wasn’t like SoA where it was done in a week or two. If a player took 9-12 months to create one of these weapons, that doesn’t make it old content. That’s how the challenge was geared to be - a time consuming challenge, Relic and Empyrean. I don’t even need to get into the time it takes to make a Mythic.

It was really exciting that after raising the level cap these once ultimate weapons, the 75 versions, had become junk, then Development stepped up and decided lets keep them; lets allow them to be upgraded to 99. What through a lot of us off and got us irritated is having those new ultimate weapons to go for and then put in months of farming and grinding to have any one of these amazing “new” ultimate weapons, to then have them toss out an expansion, making them obsolete and bested with only a two week effort of playing. We’re not talking just slightly bested; we’re talking monstrously better stats.

I still have to say, if a person can’t see how that’s unfair to the people that have earned and invested the time and effort into making a 99 R/M/E, which was “current” content, they did not earn one. If they had, they’d look back at the many months and hours they put into make it and think, “Wow, I spent months into making this and people are getting weapons, better weapons, that are monstrously better and in only a few days, this is bull-shit!”

At least that’s how I was feeling; I got to enjoy mine for a whole two weeks before it was turned into a wiffle-bat, I had set my sights on it many months prior; it was a huge disappointment, it’s hard not to feel cheated and let down. I do have some hope left; I’m waiting to see what this Nov. update will bring us.

[Metaking]

well here is the thing rem only shouts wont happen again maby relic only but that's only for like drk, assuming relics before add effect hidden proc and special ability have the same dps as delve weapons and emps will have slightly less than that and mythics a little lower still(after maths would supposedly make up the difference but without the ability to rapidly get 300% tp all the time will neuter some of them), but when you consider you will be able to use emp weaponskills with ANY weapon of the class emps will easily lag behind the relics and in some cases there delve counterpart to (looking at you gk). Mythics even with there lower dps will still win for pure utility, but given there rarity no big deal. And before anyone says it, making a relic is super easy now i can go into dynamis on blu and get 300-400 currency a run with a little luck, and lets not even get on how much of a joke adl is now, hell wish se would let blu on excal and dnc on mandu so i could make up my mind on what to do with my currency >.</

o and ps remember when trying to use relics X dmg as an example of why there better that its only first hit no X attack ,which most dds are packing in spades now a days but yes it is 13% o almost forgot on hand to hand weapons its only first fist which means a good mnk thf nin ext only sees that like 3-4% of there attacks
[13/2= 6.5(R) 4(Q)/100=4 8(T)/96=7.62 20(D)/88.35=17.67

12+15.24+17.67+100 =144.9

6.5/144.9 = 0.044~ = 4% forgive this scrap math no paper and cant do it in my head <.<]

[Tptn937]

Half way through the month, and still no update on REM update. If they still can't manage to get Relic or Empyrean staff down I'll be beyond annoyed since they seemed to figure it out for Adoulin content. If BLM mythic gets some sort of melee upgrade I'm definitely done with this game.

[RabidInfant]

There are lots of things I am unsure about regarding the REM update. I imagine a lot of us are mostly second guessing, the uncertainty is driving me insane quite frankly.

Please forgive me if any of what I type is innacurate but it is based on what I have read (rightly or wrongly) on various other FFXI sites or tried to make sense of from what SE might have hinted towards...

Here are some of the many questions I have, no idea if they have answers yet.

What about REM owners, it was rumoured that only level 99 REM's will get a 'boost'? what about the hundreds (even thousands) of people on all servers who may have REM's below level 99... do they get left out here? the same people who are hoping this update brings them some good news that their hard earned weapons will once again be acceptable, or will this update stab them once more?

As an Empy owner looking to finish their weapon to 99 I have to ask 'What about heavy metal plates?' is the figure staying at 1500 and if so will we see HMP drop elsewhere and more commonly? at least giving us a realistic chance to get our weapons to 99.... we don't want it given to us, not like delve weapons have been, we want to earn our weapons and for them to be special and something useful and to be proud of, but please please give us a chance, a realistic chance to finish them.

So many questions, for which I apologise.

Rabid.

[Alpheus]

To your questions Rabid:

1. 99 WoE weapons were name dropped as being a requirement for unlocking the Empy WS for use on other weapons but a logical holdout would be lvl 85-90 Empy Weapons also unlocking it.

2. REMs across the board will only be buffed at lvl 99 and be granted item levels and all the attributes item levels bring along with proportionate boosts to their damage ratings and I assume; any base stat increases on the 99 Empy Weapons however I personally believe they will finally add WS DMG+X% as a hidden boost for genuine 99 Empyrean Weapons since it is the only class of legendary to not have that stat, and once you can unlock the Empy WS via other means the genuine weapons need a compelling case to be used and this is probably the only thing they can get.

3. In regards to HMPs no adjustment has ever been hinted at as far as obtaining HMPs and fulfilling the 1500 you need. The only adjustment to Empy acquisition that was even floated by the Dev team was during the high point of the REM outrage once Delve content went live and it hinted at streamlining the trials that precede the Empy Weapon being given it's proper name/branching off into the WoE path*. It was mentioned along with unlocking Relic Weaponskills and that itself dropped off rather quickly never to be repeated by the Dev Team.

* = Essentially the NM camping trials.

[FaeQueenCory]

2. REMs across the board will only be buffed at lvl 99 and be granted item levels and all the attributes item levels bring along with proportionate boosts to their damage ratings and I assume; any base stat increases on the 99 Empy Weapons however I personally believe they will finally add WS DMG+X% as a hidden boost for genuine 99 Empyrean Weapons since it is the only class of legendary to not have that stat, and once you can unlock the Empy WS via other means the genuine weapons need a compelling case to be used and this is probably the only thing they can get.
I have to point out that we only assume that they will be given iLvs.
The only actual word on it was that they would have their damage boosted to comparable levels of Delve weapons.

And as such, not all the 119 weapons either. Only Mythics will have that boost to being 119 level in damage.
Relics and Empys will only receive a boost to match the augmented delve weapon drops: ie 113.
And I guess that matches Skirmish+1s as well.

But all we can say at the moment is that they will have the damage of these weapons... Hopefully they will actually have iLvs... because just having the dmg will still make them crap.

And I know ppl want their Relics and Empys to be the same tier as Mythic and Delve Mega Boss drops.... but I have to agree with Matsui's stated tiering.
Relics and Empy are soooooooooo friggen easy to make. Especially empys. They do not require the rigors of Mythics or even the harshness of getting a Delve win. (I know ppl can do it, but it's not like everyone can. BUT everyone CAN skirmish and skirmish2 AND they can make Relics and Empys with the only effort being time... or money if you're rich in the case of Relics.)

I would like to think that the Dev team has the know-with-all to realize that just upping the base damage still makes the REMs worthless....
But then these are the ppl that didn't think that making the REMs worthless would be a big deal to begin with... so...
50/50

I especially hope for the case with Macc.... and maybe with this update... Claustrum might actually be decent enough to not be just a vanity relic. (iLv = "fake" skill bonus = +Macc = Claustrum having mage stats!!)

Oh! And what would just be icing on the cake... Making them add the jobs that they really should have been added to once those job started existing.
Ever been on DNC and wanted to use your fancy 99 Mandau? Too bad!
RUN and GEO have 0 REMs? Not any more! Now GEO's on Mjollnr and RUN's on Ragnarok!!!
I pray to all Divinities that this happens.... Adding the jobs that should have always been added to the Relics... That should have been a day1 thing.



And as to Keeley's Chicken Little routine....
No. Boosting REMs to the delve level will make MORE ppl be able to do stuff. And returning players will actually be able to do things well.
Let's just look at MNKs for a moment.
Now all they have is Oats. Everyone has Oats.
BUT with the REM update... they can come to the Delve fracture runs with their REM. And be no more jank than the monk with the rank 15 delve 113 h2h.
Unless they have the mythic... then they'd be on par with the Oat MNKs.
And that's a good thing. It means more ppl can do the event meaning more options meaning more variance meaning more appeal.
The worst you'll see is a shout asking for "Delve <<Mega Boss>> Mythic DD only."
But in all likelihood what you'll see is "DREMS DD only," Delve-Relic-Empyrean-Mythic-Skirmish+1. (the skirmish+1 have the potential to be serviceable... and as such will only ever be a bottom to the other four... Much in the same way that an Oats is preferred to a rank15 113 h2h.)

[Metaking]

@FaeQueenCory
you realize excluding toj himself no one will bring a non oat mnk to a delve run the difference in dmg is massive between those 2 weapons also doesn't help that its easy enough to get an oat mnk to replace said non oat mnk they are soooooooooo friggen easy to get and generaly go free lot and sometimes hit the ground ^^. (i mean seriously i had a run Fup the matama twice and we still had enough time to kill the thunder lizard >.>;)

[Alpheus]

I have to point out that we only assume that they will be given iLvs.
The only actual word on it was that they would have their damage boosted to comparable levels of Delve weapons.

And as such, not all the 119 weapons either. Only Mythics will have that boost to being 119 level in damage.
Relics and Empys will only receive a boost to match the augmented delve weapon drops: ie 113.
And I guess that matches Skirmish+1s as well.

But all we can say at the moment is that they will have the damage of these weapons... Hopefully they will actually have iLvs... because just having the dmg will still make them crap.

And I know ppl want their Relics and Empys to be the same tier as Mythic and Delve Mega Boss drops.... but I have to agree with Matsui's stated tiering.


Can you point me in the direction where Matsui says that? Genuinely curious.

[Spectreman]

If R/M/E were in terms of dmg/skill between 113 and 119 they could be still powerful and asked again to endgame events. Some of them have really nice abilities that i believe it would outclass some 119 weapons.

If they just make them 119 then all new content will be trashed in favor of old content. That wouldn't make any sense for a game genre that should always be looking ahead and not backwards.

[Demon6324236]

If R/M/E were in terms of dmg/skill between 113 and 119 they could be still powerful and asked again to endgame events. Some of them have really nice abilities that i believe it would outclass some 119 weapons.Except that besides Relics, none of them are possibly common enough to ask for them only.

Empyrean weapons have the giant cock-block that is Heavy Metal Plates, something that has always been a pain to get, and now is near impossible, same with Rift-Cinder/Dross which comes after. So we can rule those out from being common.

Mythics, well that speaks for itself, most people are to daunted by the massive effort it takes to make one for them to even attempt it, it takes a minimum of 5 months no matter what, but past that, with the 30k Alexandrite and such, they have never been common, and likely never will.

That rules out 2 of the 3 types of weapons from being common, since they all have to be 99 to upgrade.

Relics, are the most easily 99'd weapon type of the 3, Dynamis can be done daily, 2 hours a day is all it takes, and around 18,000 currency in total to make a weapon, then probably around 10~12 hours depending on trials, and 5 marrows, as well as 2 extra Dynamis runs, is all it takes to finish a Relic. By compare to the others, its much easier. Also many people have them already, probably around half are 99, the other half can get 99 easily seeing as ADL is a cake walk now to any group with Adoulin level gear(I killed ADL with a WHM, DRK, MNK, PLD, and Dualboxed BRD) so that wouldn't be to hard.



In the end, if anything, at worst you are looking at Relic only shouts, but honestly, with how many RME owners left the game due to their being outdated, I think what you are really going to see is shouts for people with Empyrean WSs for certain jobs. Some like DRG or DRK have terrible Empyrean WSs by compare to Merit, however, jobs like WAR, MNK, or SAM, will probably be requested to have the Empyrean WS, and that by itself is not to bad, only camping the NMs for the first few is, if they cut that out or you have help with it, it will make the whole process easy.




If they just make them 119 then all new content will be trashed in favor of old content. That wouldn't make any sense for a game genre that should always be looking ahead and not backwards.Oh look, its the non-nonsensical argument again, about how without weapon progression all progression is halted and no one would do new content.

I understand where this comes from I suppose, I mean, look at Skirmish, perfect example of why it makes sense, and why its wrong. How many people did Skirmish for weapons when that was the only reward from it? Well, not many, even after the changes, not many people did it, it was just weapons. On the other end of it, look at Skirmish now, it drops armor & weapons, however, how many people actually go out and get the weapons from Skirmish? The weapons are not bad, but they are not the best, the main reason people do Skirmish isn't for those weapons, its the armor. Its just another case of the game not needing weapon progression for people to do it really.

Before SoA, Neo-Nyzul Isle had no weapons, nor Salvage II, nor Neo-Limbus, Odin II had weapons, but they weren't all to popular besides the Polearm for DRG which didn't see much use anyways. My point is, it worked, and people still did new content all the time, the only time people didn't is when the reward was so focused on weapons that nearly no gear, or no good gear, was added. When you do that, of course it doesn't turn out well, but you don't have to add weapons with the type of progression that the game had before all that, because with 1 set of weapons on the top you can set a clear goal for everyone, while making side-grade weapons that people can get till they have the ability to obtain one.

[sc4500]

They just need have a NPC were you take one of the R/M/E to and If got a delve weapon, The npc combines them together, get +.5damage for Empy, get +1 damage for Relic, Get +1.5 damage for Mythic, Then you can you will get. To choose what the weapon looks like. From a list of 5 appearances , and then you get to choose, if want a special delve ws . That all base delve weapons will have , or the the weapons skills from the R/M/E weapon. This way you will not need to have everyone shout need maxed weapons. Then each time they add more powerful weapons they can also just keep the same npc that increases that combo up a little.

[Anjou]

They just need have a NPC were you take one of the R/M/E to and If got a delve weapon, The npc combines them together, get +.5damage for Empy, get +1 damage for Relic, Get +1.5 damage for Mythic, Then you can you will get. To choose what the weapon looks like. From a list of 5 appearances , and then you get to choose, if want a special delve ws . That all base delve weapons will have , or the the weapons skills from the R/M/E weapon. This way you will not need to have everyone shout need maxed weapons. Then each time they add more powerful weapons they can also just keep the same npc that increases that combo up a little.

.......Wut?

[Shaiera]

In general, until they make an official announcement, saying, “This is what we’re doing to R/M/E; these are the stat. increases.”, I don’t think saying what they should/shouldn’t do is going to make a big impact since they’ve stated we have a plan now, and it launches sometime in November.

What I’m confused with is a lot of these posts popping up saying, “Well I think Emp should be made a bit better than Relic, I think it’s harder to get”, or the reverse saying, “Well I think Relic should be made a bit better than Emp, I think it’s harder to get.” All these weapons - R/M/E currently are useless when compared to the SoA content weapons, even the most gimp weapons from SoA.

R/M/E were all relatively equal, in general; yes there were some exceptions, but over all equal to the other weapons of the same type. My biggest concern is having them be useful at all; lets start with that. I say for now just bring them all up together, how they were before (SoA - When shit hit the fan.). All these posts about Emp should, Relic should, Mythic should are annoying; it’s not about making whatever weapon you decided to go for being the best or others being made better because you think it’s hard to get; quite frankly, to be blunt, most of us don’t give a shit. Let’s start with having them being useful at all, you can’t even use them in any SoA end-game, if you can call it that, they need to be useable first. After they’re usable and even able to be considered viable weapon options, then by all means; open your own thread about how your weapons needs to be the best because you’re the one that earned it.

I do really hope whatever they have planned in November Update is worth the wait; some of my friends say, “I’ll come back when they fix R/M/E.” Others are saying, “Naw even if they fix R/M/E it’s too late, it’s been months, I’m moving onto something else.” I’ve noted that something else seems to end up being WoW and FFXIV, since they are so much alike. At any rate, I’m on board with the first half; fix R/M/E I’ll probably stay; keep neglecting it much longer, I too will be moving onto something else; most likely joining a lot of my other friends that quit FFXI, for the same reasons, losing so many months of achievement for weapons that destroy them in stats and take less than two weeks to obtain being probably the top of the list reason. If R/M/E are anything less than these weapons, they will have no point; the time/Gil invested into making any of them will be way to great to matter in the long run. So an update not bring them above would be pointless. I hope they have the common sense to realize that people will take the easiest path of least resistance; which means unless R/M/E are better, even by only 3%, there will be no one willing to work them up, which would make this update very pointless…

[FaeQueenCory]

Can you point me in the direction where Matsui says that? Genuinely curious.
Honestly.... I would really love to.... but it was FOREVER ago.
And since I am not crazy... I never thought it would be buried in the forums long enough to be saved...
Who knew that that would be the only word about the update for half a year.... T_T

But basically: Matsui used the one-handed swords for comparisons.
Burtang was updated to be 1dmg less than Buramenkah. (thusly, 119 level)
And Excalibur and Almace were a sizeable drop of dmg below them... (I wanna say 20pts... but it might have been as high as -30dmg...) so that's basically equivalent to Halahuinic... but slightly better. So really it's possible (even probable) to put them at 115ish instead of 113. I just used the second best swords as an iLv comparrison.

Matsui only gave #dmg and delay... this was like a month before the whole stick fake skill on stuff update... so... yeah.
But I remember that Burtang was -1dmg from Buramenkah, and Excalibur and Almace were a tier lower.

The iLv association is my own doing. (though I feel that stating mythics will be 119 isn't any different than what Matsui said.)

Again, sorry I can't find the post exactly... it's been buried under a half-year's posts.


R/M/E were all relatively equal, in general;
Except not. Mythics have always been the largest reward for the largest time invested.
Relics and Empys are pretty much the same. Just different kinds of time sunk into them. (farming $ vs farming chunks of monsters)
But Mythics have pretty much 100% completion of ToAU as a starting point.

And Matsu HAS give us a statement.... but it was forever ago and only dealt with the base damage because it was before the fake skill update.
Yeah. THAT long ago.
Mythics will be equal to the Delve Mega Boss weapons.
Relics and Empys will be below them, but still viable.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly.... I would really love to.... but it was FOREVER ago.
And since I am not crazy... I never thought it would be buried in the forums long enough to be saved...
Who knew that that would be the only word about the update for half a year.... T_T

But basically: Matsui used the one-handed swords for comparisons.
Burtang was updated to be 1dmg less than Buramenkah. (thusly, 119 level)
And Excalibur and Almace were a sizeable drop of dmg below them... (I wanna say 20pts... but it might have been as high as -30dmg...) so that's basically equivalent to Halahuinic... but slightly better. So really it's possible (even probable) to put them at 115ish instead of 113. I just used the second best swords as an iLv comparrison.

Matsui only gave #dmg and delay... this was like a month before the whole stick fake skill on stuff update... so... yeah.
But I remember that Burtang was -1dmg from Buramenkah, and Excalibur and Almace were a tier lower.

The iLv association is my own doing. (though I feel that stating mythics will be 119 isn't any different than what Matsui said.)

Again, sorry I can't find the post exactly... it's been buried under a half-year's posts.


Except not. Mythics have always been the largest reward for the largest time invested.
Relics and Empys are pretty much the same. Just different kinds of time sunk into them. (farming $ vs farming chunks of monsters)
But Mythics have pretty much 100% completion of ToAU as a starting point.

And Matsu HAS give us a statement.... but it was forever ago and only dealt with the base damage because it was before the fake skill update.
Yeah. THAT long ago.
Mythics will be equal to the Delve Mega Boss weapons.
Relics and Empys will be below them, but still viable.Firstly, Mythics used to be the weakest of the 3 for a few jobs, you needed to use horrible WSs and had to save up 300% TP just to get your best effects from it. Even after merit WSs, it wasn't always to great, many still suffered and sucked. Mythics have always been the hardest, but since Empyrean weapons came out, they were hardly the best for most jobs, only really PUP & DRG have always been best.


Excalibur

DMG: 73 Delay: 233 Attack+40 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP
↓
DMG: 121 Delay: 233 Attack+60 Accuracy+20 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP

Burtgang

DMG: 73 Delay: 264 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice
↓
DMG: 131 Delay: 264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice

Almace

DMG: 70 Delay: 224 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
↓
DMG: 114 Delay: 224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage This is the post your talking about, and no, the reason Burt is 10 DMG higher is it has 31 Delay more than Excalibur, that's it, a trade off. They are weaker than 119s in DMG but better cause of ODD, Attack, and Acc, so after the skill is added & such, RMEs should be better than 119 weapons because of ODD, but not in base DMG.

In either case, if this was your post to say its 113 R/Ms and 119 Empyreans, consider your claim/theory debunked, they never said that, and statistically its not accurate either since Bura would be 1 DMG lower than Burtgang, and only 9 higher than Excalibur, while Hala is a full 17 lower than Excalibur. In the end, its not really accurate to say they are 113, best estimate would be 117 really... but again, ODD puts them as best by these numbers.

[Afania]

Honestly.... I would really love to.... but it was FOREVER ago.
And since I am not crazy... I never thought it would be buried in the forums long enough to be saved...
Who knew that that would be the only word about the update for half a year.... T_T

But basically: Matsui used the one-handed swords for comparisons.
Burtang was updated to be 1dmg less than Buramenkah. (thusly, 119 level)
And Excalibur and Almace were a sizeable drop of dmg below them... (I wanna say 20pts... but it might have been as high as -30dmg...) so that's basically equivalent to Halahuinic... but slightly better. So really it's possible (even probable) to put them at 115ish instead of 113. I just used the second best swords as an iLv comparrison.

Matsui only gave #dmg and delay... this was like a month before the whole stick fake skill on stuff update... so... yeah.
But I remember that Burtang was -1dmg from Buramenkah, and Excalibur and Almace were a tier lower.

The iLv association is my own doing. (though I feel that stating mythics will be 119 isn't any different than what Matsui said.)

Again, sorry I can't find the post exactly... it's been buried under a half-year's posts.


Except not. Mythics have always been the largest reward for the largest time invested.
Relics and Empys are pretty much the same. Just different kinds of time sunk into them. (farming $ vs farming chunks of monsters)
But Mythics have pretty much 100% completion of ToAU as a starting point.

And Matsu HAS give us a statement.... but it was forever ago and only dealt with the base damage because it was before the fake skill update.
Yeah. THAT long ago.
Mythics will be equal to the Delve Mega Boss weapons.
Relics and Empys will be below them, but still viable.

I don't want Mythics to be equal to delve mega boss weapons and relics/empy inferior to Oat(which is a weapon you can get in 20 min~3hr, mind you), that'd be pretty dumb. RME should be a situationally useful weapon, but not required to complete any content.

[FaeQueenCory]

Firstly, Mythics used to be the weakest of the 3 for a few jobs, you needed to use horrible WSs and had to save up 300% TP just to get your best effects from it. Even after merit WSs, it wasn't always to great, many still suffered and sucked. Mythics have always been the hardest, but since Empyrean weapons came out, they were hardly the best for most jobs, only really PUP & DRG have always been best.

This is the post your talking about, and no, the reason Burt is 10 DMG higher is it has 31 Delay more than Excalibur, that's it, a trade off. They are weaker than 119s in DMG but better cause of ODD, Attack, and Acc, so after the skill is added & such, RMEs should be better than 119 weapons because of ODD, but not in base DMG.

In either case, if this was your post to say its 113 R/Ms and 119 Empyreans, consider your claim/theory debunked, they never said that, and statistically its not accurate either since Bura would be 1 DMG lower than Burtgang, and only 9 higher than Excalibur, while Hala is a full 17 lower than Excalibur. In the end, its not really accurate to say they are 113, best estimate would be 117 really... but again, ODD puts them as best by these numbers.
I think that's it. But back when that was, Burtang was only 1pt less than Buramenkah. And no iLv had all that fake skill and power adjustment. So... it's not a very good idea at what we are gonna get.. but it's the only word on this we have.

And it so long ago that my iLvs are just a rough guide. I never said they were the end-all-be-all. Just a rough estimate of what they will be like. And in all honesty... I only said 113 out of convenience. R/E will more likely be closer to 115-117 or even as high as 118.
But the fact remain that R/E will be slightly below M/Ds in pure damage... not taking into accound WS damage... because then REMs should out perform Delve Mega Boss drops due to the whole +30% WS damage.
But this is all conjecture until we have a better roadmap.


And as to mythics being situationally better.... the mage mythics pretty much are the best of the best because for what they do.
Relic staff is probably one of the crappiest of the REMs IMO.... a pure physical damage weapon with nothing that augments any of the abilities that the jobs that can wear it rely upon... Well... it's got that 8mp refresh thing... so... it's not 100% crap.
Even the Empy staff is 10000000x better... and all it does is give you a larger MP pool.
And for whm, Yagrush is still God. A whm with Tamaxchi and a Yagrush = king of whms.

So we can't even say that R/E > M for everyone... because mage jobs care more about magical augments than they do about phys DD.
But then, this is why it was always REMs at the top.
Because for a job-by-job look, one of the three is going to usually out perform the other.

Mythics are intended to be the best.... though for some of them that intent was... not realized to say the least.
Relics and Empys are low-delay-high-damage weapons, so for phys DDs, they excel.

If we REALLY must quibble over the iLv of R/Es.... then let's all agree on an arbitrary one. (115-117? 116? it's not 119)
Because as it stands right now.... we don't even know if they'll HAVE an iLv.
We want to believe they will.
We expect they will because that's just simple and good design.
But with no word.... and the simple fact that we are even talking about them having to be upgraded to iLvs in the first place... instead of it being a day-1-patch type thing....
Anything is up in the air.

Pray to Altana that they have iLvs... because we just don't know at this point.

EDIT:

I don't want Mythics to be equal to delve mega boss weapons and relics/empy inferior to Oat(which is a weapon you can get in 20 min~3hr, mind you), that'd be pretty dumb. RME should be a situationally useful weapon, but not required to complete any content.It's not that they'll be required... no more so than they used to be required.
This update will just bring back the "REM only" shouts for stuff... which never actually left because I know on Odin we have "x Delve Mega Boss weapon only" shouts.
What this update should bring... is the opening up of Delve for more ppl.
For example, a MNK would not be excluded for having a 99/99-2 REM instead of an Oats.
Heck, they might even be FAVORED over Oats depending on how the WSs will factor in...
Ideally... this will make more content available to more people, and offer alternative paths to endgame gear: build a REM, get a Delve weapon, even skrimish+1s were added to offer more people more chances to get into PUGs.

In short, this should make DREMS the top of what weapons ppl will want from PUG members in their Delve runs.

[Demon6324236]

I think that's it. But back when that was, Burtang was only 1pt less than Buramenkah. And no iLv had all that fake skill and power adjustment. So... it's not a very good idea at what we are gonna get.. but it's the only word on this we have.Well that's the thing, the post your going off of is old, its impossible to really use that for any sort of accurate information, and I just wanted to point that out because I doubt that I was the only person who saw that and went looking for information I had missed.


And it so long ago that my iLvs are just a rough guide. I never said they were the end-all-be-all. Just a rough estimate of what they will be like. And in all honesty... I only said 113 out of convenience. R/E will more likely be closer to 115-117 or even as high as 118.
But the fact remain that R/E will be slightly below M/Ds in pure damage... not taking into accound WS damage... because then REMs should out perform Delve Mega Boss drops due to the whole +30% WS damage.
But this is all conjecture until we have a better roadmap. I understand to a point what your saying, but at the same time, not so much, there are more variables than simply a DMG rating after all, and while you are continuing to act as though Burtgang will be better than Excalibur or Almace, your wrong.

Compare Excalibur to Burtgang, Burtgang has a high DMG because of its high delay, the delay on the swords were 233 & 264, while the DMG used to be 73 for both, really, it was a very unbalanced downfall to Burtgang, giving it nearly 15% more delay with the same DMG, which destroyed its overall DPS. This same idea goes with Almace, which had 70 DMG & 224 Delay, except it was properly balanced in a way, the DMG was lower, the delay was lower, all was well. I think the higher DMG on Burtgang is SE finally balancing them, not Mythics being better than Relics or Empyreans, but rather, the result of their example being only that selection of weapons, we would have a better idea of everything if we had a comparison to Murgleis since the delay of Murgleis is the same as the delay for Almace.


And as to mythics being situationally better.... the mage mythics pretty much are the best of the best because for what they do.
Relic staff is probably one of the crappiest of the REMs IMO.... a pure physical damage weapon with nothing that augments any of the abilities that the jobs that can wear it rely upon... Well... it's got that 8mp refresh thing... so... it's not 100% crap.
Even the Empy staff is 10000000x better... and all it does is give you a larger MP pool.
And for whm, Yagrush is still God. A whm with Tamaxchi and a Yagrush = king of whms.

So we can't even say that R/E > M for everyone... because mage jobs care more about magical augments than they do about phys DD.
But then, this is why it was always REMs at the top.
Because for a job-by-job look, one of the three is going to usually out perform the other.Well that's part of the idea, while yes, they may take the most work, they are not really the best for many jobs, most which have a use are small uses here & there, but not close to perfect, most of the time you will be using something else, and only pull it out for some certain times. For instance, WAR was only for Mighty Strikes zerging, DRK was only for Absorbs, BLM was only for Meteor, the list goes on, they were situational pieces, where most of the time you would be seen using something else.


Mythics are intended to be the best.... though for some of them that intent was... not realized to say the least.
Relics and Empys are low-delay-high-damage weapons, so for phys DDs, they excel.I agree mostly. I do not think so much that Mythics are meant to be the best, but more that they are meant to enhance the job more than the damage of the job. Relics & Empyreans are for all intents and purposes meant to make you kill things faster, but they hardly do much to enhance the job itself, which is the difference with Mythics, the only issue is that for over half the jobs in the game, the most important thing you do is your damage, so by not making it a focus even on the ones for DD jobs, they fall behind the others. I mean, making a GK for SAM that enhances Third Eye is cool, but, it has no job specific damage dealing enhancement, which puts it behind the others. WAR would be amazing, but the crit rate they give wasn't good enough after Abyssea came out to justify the use of King's anymore, Ukko's was just to good, and even Upheaval didn't make it better, only when you used Mighty Strikes did it win really. So in the end, I agree that Relics & Empyreans are meant to be high end damage weapons, but not so much that Mythics are meant to be the best, just that Mythics are meant to enhance the job.


If we REALLY must quibble over the iLv of R/Es.... then let's all agree on an arbitrary one. (115-117? 116? it's not 119)
Because as it stands right now.... we don't even know if they'll HAVE an iLv.
We want to believe they will.
We expect they will because that's just simple and good design.
But with no word.... and the simple fact that we are even talking about them having to be upgraded to iLvs in the first place... instead of it being a day-1-patch type thing....
Anything is up in the air.

Pray to Altana that they have iLvs... because we just don't know at this point.Honestly, I cant see it happening where they do not have ilevels. The majority of people complaining made it clear that their being outdated was a slap in the face, but to upgrade their DMG without adding skill, levels, and other stats needed to make them feel as though they were truly upgraded... I honestly doubt SE would be stupid enough to do such a thing. I sadly know your correct, they could do it, and with SE, we never really know for sure, but at the same time, I have a hard time believing they could be so foolish, ignorant, or just flat out incompetent, in this matter.


It's not that they'll be required... no more so than they used to be required.
This update will just bring back the "REM only" shouts for stuff... which never actually left because I know on Odin we have "x Delve Mega Boss weapon only" shouts.
What this update should bring... is the opening up of Delve for more ppl.
For example, a MNK would not be excluded for having a 99/99-2 REM instead of an Oats.
Heck, they might even be FAVORED over Oats depending on how the WSs will factor in...
Ideally... this will make more content available to more people, and offer alternative paths to endgame gear: build a REM, get a Delve weapon, even skrimish+1s were added to offer more people more chances to get into PUGs.

In short, this should make DREMS the top of what weapons ppl will want from PUG members in their Delve runs.I think the fact we will unlock Empyrean WSs will help as well, right now part of the reason people bring what they do is to help make sure enough damage is done to kill the NMs. Well, for now, we use WSs which are much weaker than what we could be using. MNKs use Shijin, not a weak WSs, but not Victory Smite. WARs have been nearly excluded from the content right now because Upheaval is basically half as good as Ukko's is, but when Ukko's comes back into play, it will burn with a blazing fury!

I think a lot of people overlook the fact that many jobs will become more powerful just by the fact we can unlock Empyrean WSs after the update, no matter what weapon they use, and that it will make things easier, which should help drop some restrictions for people so long as the leaders of the groups are smart, and not fools asking for things they don't need, like the people who still want 4 song BRDs and such.

[Tennotsukai]

Umm...random question: Was it ever literally stated by SE of how we will be able to obtain our Empy WS's on other weapons? People are telling me 90 Empy, but I am not finding that info anywhere. I also read something about 99 WoE weapons on bgwiki. I've been working on some 90 empy's the last month and would hate to see that time go wasted, like most of my time on this game.

[Demon6324236]

From what I know its either one, 90 Empyrean or 99 WoE, either one works so far as I know, but it has never actually been said on the English forums by a rep, I think it was said on the JP forums only.

[zataz]

in the words of the almighty camate

In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.