Summoner Suggestions

[SillyBoots]

These suggestions are intended to be of more universal value to the Summoner, that is to say these suggestions are without regard to subjob, level, gear and whether in group or solo play.

*Elemental Spirits*

Spirits should auto-target and attack an enemy like the DRG's Wyvern does and the assault command should not reset the spell cool down.

Elemental Spirits (not Light or Dark) should have 2 spell sets with independent timers, one for enfeebling magic and one for elemental magic.

Light Spirit needs 2 separate spell sets with independent timers. In healer mode this would be split into curing spells and then buffing magic and while the spirit is engaged it would be healing magic and then its combat spell list.

Light Spirit should get higher tiers of Regen.

Light Spirit should not engage an enemy, that is to say; leave healer mode, unless the Summoner uses Assault.

Dark Spirit's spell timer should always be halved.


*Summoning Magic*

Summoning magic should be uniterruptible similar to a Bard's song.

Both summon auto-attack and an Elemental Spirit's spell should provide summoning magic skill up opportunities.


*General*

Summon auto-attack needs an upgrade.

We need a job ability similar to Piannissimo that allows us to make our BP: Ward single target and reduces MP cost to 1/2 and reduces BP: Ward recast by half.

These are more quality of life issues that I've consistently felt the job could use regardless if I was in a group or solo, meleeing or not and throughout the levels.

[FaeQueenCory]

I was really surprised to see nothing about BP timer or any of the legit problems with smn...
Then I saw that you're only 58 (at the time of both these posts) so I then understood why you were saying this stuff when there just isn't any problem with it once you hit... 70ish.

In order of your list:

Spirits: you mean those little baubles that you drain MP from every 5min in intense fights? (looking at you WKRs)
Oh.... you mean that white little bauble that you let tag along with you when you're not doing anything so you can always have pro/shell5!


In a less trolly manner: Why are you using any spirit other than Light spirit and only when you're not doing anything???
Carbuncle is better than all of them... CARBUNCLE.
He's terrible!
And the devil!
Though having Light bauble poop out regen 4s or 5s the way it lets smn cheat with pro/shell5... that'd be really cool.
But not a pressing matter.
At all.
We have actual problems with the job to deal with first.


Summoning Magic:
Your skill isn't capped. Is it?
Generally, when a magic skill is capped (or over capped as all SMNs shoot for) the interruption rate of casting of the spell will be very low.
And, just speaking from personal experience, ever since they updated the casting time to be 5s (I think that's what it is now)... I think I've had a summoning only be interrupted once... and that was in Adoulin and a TP move.
Cap your skill (and then overcap it with merits and gear) and you won't be experiencing what you are now at 58.


And again, an interesting idea... Avatar AA raising skill level....
Summoning Magic IS the worst of the magics to raise... (It's why I don't recommend abyburning smn.)
But.... while this would be a godsend.... (and it would encourage abyburned smns to raise their skill through combat rather than summon spamming)
"we have more pressing concerns at the moment" (BP timer and AA dmg)


General:
More wonderful suggestions.... for things that are enhancements and not fixes....

EXCEPT: Auto-Attack dmg.
I think it was Babakeke who called attention to the fact that a smn can out dmg the avatar at iLvs... in just AA.
And... that's just sad.... but I'm not sure anything can be done about it... (though maybe augmenting the values of the +atk that Dashvatara/Convocaller sachets give may suffice... but Lord knows those values at present.)
Though I am kinda curious about how you noticed this at 58... when I was 58... my Avatars were greatly out doing my AA dmg.


So... You've made many a nice suggestion... but only called attention to one thing that needs to be fixed: AA dmg.
At present, BP timer cap and AA dmg are the biggest things that need to be addressed with smn.
Spirits are ethers.
Light Spirit is for your Pro/Shell5.
Cap your skill to make your interrupts less.

[SillyBoots]

Thanks for the long write up Fae. Been playing FFXI for 7.5 years with multiple jobs capped etc etc but I didn't reference that so obviously it's understandable to judge my post based on this account's listed level. My suggestion list is from my experiences in exploring every aspect of the job during every possible avenue I could explore it in and these are the recurring gripes I had. My summoning magic is capped, and yes it is a pain to keep it capped, but I still find myself losing efficiency more than I'd like in solo/low man situations due to me having hate and getting interrupts and due to the length of the spell cast time this can become fairly significant.

I actually disagree with you on BP timer being too long. I find myself being most efficient when using the BPs then swapping in a spirit for a spell then swapping back to an avatar for BP. I also don't find myself using the most mana expensive BPs all that often. I'm not sure you could realistically increase your damage that much by being able to spam BPs. If you did you would limit yourself to just BP BP BP rest repeat and then you might as well just be a blm or sch etc. The point is I don't find myself in a situation where I feel like I wish I could just spam BPs that often.

[Mokeil]

I actually disagree with you on BP timer being too long. I find myself being most efficient when using the BPs then swapping in a spirit for a spell then swapping back to an avatar for BP. I also don't find myself using the most mana expensive BPs all that often. I'm not sure you could realistically increase your damage that much by being able to spam BPs. If you did you would limit yourself to just BP BP BP rest repeat and then you might as well just be a blm or sch etc. The point is I don't find myself in a situation where I feel like I wish I could just spam BPs that often.

Outside of the (supposedly eventually) incoming new SP ability, I don't think anyone seriously wants the ability to be able to "spam" Rages. Most folks I know - myself included - agree that adjusting the cap to -30 BP timer (or, conversely, 30 seconds between BPs) would most likely be sufficiently useful, without being overpowering. This would help us out not just offensively, but support-wise, as well. I have some thoughts on the matter more fully outlined here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36618-Idea-for-SMN?p=465049&viewfull=1#post465049) if you're interested.

But since you mentioned the increase to our damage... Assuming all things equal save for the timer recast... A Summoner with a 45 second BP Timer can do three Rages in a 90 second time frame (1st at 0 seconds, 2nd at 45s, and 3rd at 90s). A Summoner with a 30 second timer can, on the other hand, do 4 Rages in that same time (1st at 0s, 2nd at 30s, 3rd at 60s, 4th at 90s). While this may not look like much difference - 3 Rages versus 4 - it is, in fact, a 33% boost in offensive Rage output. Additionally, this boost will begin to approach a 50% boost in Rage output as the battle goes on longer, and the initial Rage at 0s begins to count for less...

And we'll still be put to shame by a modestly geared BLM who is just spamming low cost, high efficiency tier II spells, or a melee with their awesome auto-attacks and constant WSs. (And that would be OK, as we should theoretically be able to offer support and healing like none of those other classes can!)

Moving on to the subject of summoned elementals, you are definitely right in that these things need a complete make over. Their AI a joke, the time it takes them to get around to casting spells is horrendous, and their spell selection is lame. As Fae pointed out, they're little more than disposable batteries right now. Even before Siphon, they usually served best as a means of Emergency Aggro Deflector. Once any "free" avatar became possible, they lost even that use.

Having mentioned BLM, I think that it would be cool if the elementals got an AI make over to reflect the recent changes in Elemental Magic. I.E. they would cast constant, low level (tier II) spells for a steady output of damage, with the occasional bump up to the tier IV/V or Ancient Magic spells for spike damage. Things like Burn should be taken right out, or moved over to the Dark Elemental. It wouldn't be hard to tweak the spell recasts to be decent, but not stepping on BLM's toes.

The Light Elemental should get a makeover similar to the Automaton in Soulsoother mode. It has separate recasts for buffs, heals, -na spells, and debuffs. Keeping the Light Elemental to single target only things would also still give Carby and Leviathan plenty of use for group dynamics. Again, as with the nuking elementals, it should be possible to adjust the timers of things (mostly the Cure spells) to keep from being over powered, while still being useful. (Also, update the dang Regen spell, already, SE!)

[SillyBoots]

Just a real quick response to your BP @ 30 seconds vs. 45 and number of rages you can do, unless there is a proportional decrease to the cost of the BPs you're not really gaining anything. This is why I'd like to see our offensive ability increased via pet AA increase and smarter/better Spirits which are very mana efficient. My point is the BPs are so mana intensive I don't think throwing more mana out the window is the smart way of fixing the problem, there has to be a better solution.

[Mokeil]

Just a real quick response to your BP @ 30 seconds vs. 45 and number of rages you can do, unless there is a proportional decrease to the cost of the BPs you're not really gaining anything. This is why I'd like to see our offensive ability increased via pet AA increase and smarter/better Spirits which are very mana efficient. My point is the BPs are so mana intensive I don't think throwing more mana out the window is the smart way of fixing the problem, there has to be a better solution.

A decrease in the cost of our BPs wouldn't be needed. Everything seems mana intensive now, but the MP management game completely changes for SMN post level 75. A huge pile of gear becomes available to us. Right now, with gear available pre-Adoulin, my perpetuation "cost" is +5MP for all avatars, in all weather, on all days, in all areas, and without having to rely on the -2 perp cost from Favor. As in, I gain 5MP per tick (+100MP per minute), thanks to nothing but gear. (Also worth noting, as I have maxed my -perp out, the Elemental Spirits "cost" the same as an avatar for me).

Just to show I have room to grow to accommodate spending my MP faster: With the right augments on a Hagondes Coat I'd be able to add in an extra +2MP/tick. Add in an Oneiros Grip, and that would be another +1 while under 75% of my max MP. At a passive +160MP per minute gained, that means one of the two Rage BPs I'd be doing is practically free (6MP difference between our lvl 70 physical Rages, 22MP difference between the lvl 75 merited ones).

And that's in just gear alone! Post level 75 support job options also start to open up to us. Self cast-able Refresh from /RDM and Sublimation from /SCH essentially add in another +3MP per tick (60 for the minute). As an extra benefit, if you're /RDM you also get Convert! Not to mention Elemental Siphon just keeps getting better and better (capable of pulling in well over 500MP every 5 minutes).

Breaking all that down: Per minute I'd have +160MP from passive Auto-refresh, +60 from Refresh/Sublimation, and +100 from Elemental Siphon. Total: 320MP per minute gained from personal (i.e. things you can do by yourself with no outside help) restoration techniques. On the flip side, our most expensive Rages are the level 75 merited ones, clocking in at 182. Two of those a minute would be 364MP spent. Total net expenditure: 44 MP every minute. (OK, 64 MP per minute spent, until under 75% MP and the Oneiros grip kicked in...) This is a paltry amount compared to what we have to start with. Even a Galka could sustain that kind of cost for 20 minutes straight without sweating.

I know that's a bit of a rough approximation, given that I'm not counting things like Refresh casting costs, or avatar switching costs, or Sublimation down time... But I am also low-balling Siphon, and not counting Convert or Blood Boon procs, so I think it's a pretty close approximation.

Once Wards start getting factored in, it would start to get trickier, yes. But in a solo situation we're not likely to need many Wards, and in a party situation we can start to factor in outside buffs like refresh II, Mage's Ballad, and Evoker's Roll.

As things stand now, I have so many personal MP restoring options that I can't actually out spend my gains using just my SMN abilities while tied to a 45 second timer - even while factoring in the cost of Wards. Once I start counting in those external buffs? Well, then things just start to get a little silly. The ability to use more of my MP on my job's actual abilities - and not just cures from my sub job - would be very welcome.

Ah... sorry for the side-tracking. I'm rather passionate about the BP timer thing...



This is why I'd like to see our offensive ability increased via pet AA increase and smarter/better Spirits which are very mana efficient.

You are spot on with the need for these to be looked at. It's disgraceful that our avatars were ever allowed to hit the point where we could out damage them so easily with our own melee. Some gear revisions would also go a long way towards helping out with this - more Pet: Double Attack and Pet: Haste options... Having Pet: Attack affect auto-attack swings, and not just the Rage BPs... But overall, our avatar's auto-attacks are likely going to need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Along with this, if the Spirits get rebuilt along the lines of something similar to what I said above (casting constant, low tier spells for continual magical damage), it would give us the ability to have solid DoT that is both physical AND magical in nature.

Don't let my passion for the BP timer thing fool you! I may not rank things like auto-attacks and Spirits as the highest priority for things that need to be fixed, but that doesn't mean that I think our other problems don't still need to be addressed. I think I'd actually be a little excited to see changes along these lines, and would welcome them gladly.

[Babekeke]

Just a real quick response to your BP @ 30 seconds vs. 45 and number of rages you can do, unless there is a proportional decrease to the cost of the BPs you're not really gaining anything. This is why I'd like to see our offensive ability increased via pet AA increase and smarter/better Spirits which are very mana efficient. My point is the BPs are so mana intensive I don't think throwing more mana out the window is the smart way of fixing the problem, there has to be a better solution.

Personally, I spam rage (generally merit abilities) every 45 seconds, and wards whenever they're down (generally Diamond Storm and Tidal Roar on WKRs, earthern armor occasionally too). I sub SCH all the time, utilising Aspir and Sublimation to supplement Elemental Siphon.

So far I've never had to rest on SMN in Adoulin. I'd welcome the challenge to lower BP timers to see if I'll finally run out of MP.

[FaeQueenCory]

Copypaste everything Mokeil has said about how everything changes post 75.
Though I'd argue that any MP issues cease being an issue (ie no need to rely on favor for constant refresh) happens closer to 70ish... but at 99? Any good smn should never be resting... ever.

Because:

Personally, I spam rage (generally merit abilities) every 45 seconds, and wards whenever they're down (generally Diamond Storm and Tidal Roar on WKRs, earthern armor occasionally too). I sub SCH all the time, utilising Aspir and Sublimation to supplement Elemental Siphon.

So far I've never had to rest on SMN in Adoulin. I'd welcome the challenge to lower BP timers to see if I'll finally run out of MP.
And I prefer /whm (cure 4) over /sch... I never run out of MP in a WKR where I am doing wards and rages constantly... (always Merit rages too)
And I don't ever drop below 50%ish. (excluding random deaths of course.)
So you don't even NEED /sch's benefits to keep your MP up... And with Hagondes body... you can trade some acc and Macc for +2 more refresh with a good enough -perp augment. (10 skill from empy body = ~5ish acc and Macc, I prefer the acc bonus, but that's just me.)

[SillyBoots]

I think you guys misunderstood my mana efficiency statement. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about mp or using BPs every cooldown etc but for me that's missing the point about BPs in general. For me that's like saying you have a problem with a THF's sneak attack timer because all their damage comes from sneak attack. I interpret the BPs being on a fairly long cooldown as an indication from SE they don't want them to be used on every single mob but then when you look at the damage that isn't coming from BPs, pet AA and Spirits, they're obviously better which sends a bit of a mixed message about the job and the role BPs are meant to take which results in people like you guys just wanting them to not half arse the BPs, which is obviously completely understandable. But again for me that is then missing the point of summoner in relation to a Blm, for example, and you end up ignoring other equally, or should be imo, aspects of the job. If you really feel that way about the BP timers then maybe, imho, you should just play sch, blm etc that has no such restrictions on their burst damage.

Edit: You know what, I think the problem is in how BP: Rage is triggered. If, for example, you instead of using MP to trigger BP: Rage used avatar TP that would make a lot more sense within the context of the smn being a pet job and it would make it more efficient.

Edit 2: TP is obviously a horrible trigger, it would further focus on avatar as opposed to spirits, but I still feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with BP: Rage, maybe we need something similar to a stratagem system for example, idk.

[Mokeil]

You're right, man. I don't think I'm following you at all, any more. I have no idea what it is your complaint about BPs costing MP is anymore. The other two Summoners who've posted in here have also agreed that we already have more ways to keep up MP than we actually need. That means we are highly mana efficient right now.

I even went out of my way to show that we could afford to spend our MP faster and still have less trouble than any of the other mana using mages at maintaining our output using only our main job abilities.


For me that's like saying you have a problem with a THF's sneak attack timer because all their damage comes from sneak attack.

The thing is, THF has all sort of other things it can do besides Sneak Attack. They have decent auto-attacks (facilitated in large parts by Haste and Dual Wield enhancing gear)... they can WS... They can take hate off of someone with Collaborator... they have Trick Attack... And for what its worth, they can also Steal/Mug things! They can do all of that regardless of whether all the other abilities they have are on cool down.

But Summoner? We have two - two - timers around which all of our abiliies revolve. If we were to liken Rages to Sneak Attack, and Wards to Trick Attack... Well, THF still has plenty of options for things they can do. All Summoner can do is twiddle our thumbs and wait for the timers to come around again.

I know I focused on Rages above, but a shorter timer also helps out our ability to support, as well. When a fight starts, any other buffing class will have had their buffs up and rolling inside of 30 seconds. As it stands, Summoner won't have even gotten to their second one. We've also got some fantastic curative Wards that never get used simply because they're never available when needed! I firmly believe that WHMs would kill us if they realized just how awesome Spring Water and Soothing Ruby are.


I interpret the BPs being on a fairly long cooldown as an indication from SE they don't want them to be used on every single mob

The thing many of us have noticed is that the game has gotten faster since its inception. Haste and Fast Cast options (to cover melee and magic) have become so ubiquitous that they are now expected to be capped merely as a matter of course. Melees can enjoy insanely huge Haste boosts, between gear and spell. Mages can easily get -50% off of their cast and recast times.

But Summoner is stuck at -25%. And when all of your abilities are tied to only two timers... Well, given the speed of the game, and the damage output capabilities of other jobs, we're lucky if we can even contribute every third battle, let alone every other.



If you really feel that way about the BP timers then maybe, imho, you should just play sch, blm etc that has no such restrictions on their burst damage.

I normally try to stay as neutral as I can when posting on this forum... But I have to admit that this line here actually gets me a little angry. It's highly dismissive. Those few of us who post here regularly love Summoner. We've been playing Summoner for years now, and we all have different ideas on what is and isn't needed. And that's OK. I don't have to agree with someone to respect their opinion.

But to just dismiss us outright? Telling us that because we don't agree with you we should go somewhere else? That's not classy, man.


Edit 2: TP is obviously a horrible trigger, it would further focus on avatar as opposed to spirits, but I still feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with BP: Rage, maybe we need something similar to a stratagem system for example, idk.

A stratagem type system has merit! Depending on how often they refresh, it could work for us. Giving us the flexibility to choose when and how fast to use our abilities (both offensive and defensive)... I don't think anyone would complain about it. It would mean a hefty change in the code, though, which is why I don't think it's likely to happen.

[Babekeke]

And I prefer /whm (cure 4) over /sch...

Hmmm... with cure potency being highly biased towards healing magic skill, a light arts cure 3 from /SCH isn't much worse than a cure 4 from /whm, you know? And it's way less MP, and way less enmity.

Each to their own, but I find /SCH to be the best sub for most mages in most situations.

[dasva]

Hmmm... with cure potency being highly biased towards healing magic skill, a light arts cure 3 from /SCH isn't much worse than a cure 4 from /whm, you know? And it's way less MP, and way less enmity.
It's impossible for it to be not that much worse in terms of curing power and be way less enmity since enmity is based on amount cured for those. But yeah the real benefit from /whm is being able to haste random DDs and idk barspells?

[Infidi]

SMN/NIN or gtfo. D: J/k J/k.... I usually use /RDM. But I'm lazy with MP management or hardwired to it, I guess, so I like the little bit of extra MP Refresh gives. Also, I guess, Convert if doing a 1hr? :P

[Archades]

/whm erase has saved me more times than i care to admit, i like sch but sublimation is only really benefit from having it (from my play experience). Oh yeah whm has divine seal, saved me too many times as well. Ihave never /rdm for stuff yet XD

does the occult accumen from the piece of equip work for jobs that dont have it? might make the time getting Myrkr worthwhile for when they make empy WS unlock-able.

oh ya when it comes to the spirits i only use fire and thunder during events if i need to get mp back up but want a pet out. they only have 3 spells they use. AM, tier V, and ele-debuff. so 2/3 chance for an offensive spell.

[Babekeke]

It's impossible for it to be not that much worse in terms of curing power and be way less enmity since enmity is based on amount cured for those. But yeah the real benefit from /whm is being able to haste random DDs and idk barspells?

I had always been under the impression that Cure 3 was much less enmity for Cure 4, but after reading through the enimty testing, it's only 5 and 6 that are different.

If you need to haste DDs, we have hastega. If you need to use a barspell, the SMN shouldn't be the one doing it. A WHM using barspell can get well over 200 resistance. We can barely get 100.



/whm erase has saved me more times than i care to admit, i like sch but sublimation is only really benefit from having it (from my play experience).

/SCH gets erase too^^

The real benefits from using /SCH lie in the dark arts. Impact. Drain (nice little bit of cheap damage). T1 nukes if you have a decent staff (the eft NM in rala skirmish is weak to magic. I was nuking thunder 1 for over 650 damage on SMN).

Also, being able to AOE buffs, or status removal is a godsend.

[Archades]

yes sch get erase but it takes light arts and addendum white and you cant be switching between it and dark constantly.
its just simpler to use on /whm. If im just gonna sit on light arts and mp not a big issue, better to just go /whm for lack of complication to use.

the aoe buffs are useful when in parties but i rarely party w/ people so i dont factor that as a major benefit.

For me /whm is default anywhere, but I /sch when i feel appropriate.

[dasva]

I had always been under the impression that Cure 3 was much less enmity for Cure 4, but after reading through the enimty testing, it's only 5 and 6 that are different.

If you need to haste DDs, we have hastega. If you need to use a barspell, the SMN shouldn't be the one doing it. A WHM using barspell can get well over 200 resistance. We can barely get 100.

True but it's not as good. Slow overwriting, people out of range, dispels will kinda eat hastega. Plus I'd rather my smn put up other unique buffs instead of anything anyone /rdm or /whm can do. Barspells I'll buy if you need them it's more of a gravy.

I forgot stona.

Either way it's rather situational based on needs. Both subs have their purposes. Really need to evaluate the needs of the event and what others are bringing to the table

[Babekeke]

While we're at it, any of you ever use impact? I'm not sure what a fully unresisted damage/duration are like on SCH or BLM, but as smn/sch it seems 50/50 whether it lasts for 10 seconds or 1 minute.

[FaeQueenCory]

Never used impact, and I agree that /sch does offer more utility...

But the reason I prefer whm over it is partially cure4+divine seal.... and majorly teleports.
Seeing as how smn only recently got end-game love (WKR) I'm on it mostly solo or with a small group of friends.
So I be teleporting all day long lol

/rdm offers convert, refresh, and phalanx. /sch offers the ability to actually cast those black magic spells in your list as /rdm decently. and /whm offers mobility and more curing than /sch.

TBH, MP hasn't been an issue since 75 era... so none of these are any better or worse than the other at 99.
It's just personal taste.
And I like that personal taste matters to smns for their sub job.

EDIT2: Oh! also /whm gives you access to all the staff WSs. Less useful in no-one-does-abyssea-anymore today.... but it's a factor.

[FaeQueenCory]

I normally never double post like this.... but seeing as one was a part of that /job tangent... I'll do it anyways.


I think you guys misunderstood my mana efficiency statement. I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about mp or using BPs every cooldown etc but for me that's missing the point about BPs in general. For me that's like saying you have a problem with a THF's sneak attack timer because all their damage comes from sneak attack. I interpret the BPs being on a fairly long cooldown as an indication from SE they don't want them to be used on every single mob but then when you look at the damage that isn't coming from BPs, pet AA and Spirits, they're obviously better which sends a bit of a mixed message about the job and the role BPs are meant to take which results in people like you guys just wanting them to not half arse the BPs, which is obviously completely understandable. But again for me that is then missing the point of summoner in relation to a Blm, for example, and you end up ignoring other equally, or should be imo, aspects of the job. If you really feel that way about the BP timers then maybe, imho, you should just play sch, blm etc that has no such restrictions on their burst damage.
Whatthewhat?
Ok... you lost me... and quite possibly.... I think you misunderstand the mechanical ideology of the BPs.
Let us look to the dark days of when smn first existed... RotZ days.
You had a BP timer.
One.
You got to have an avatar use one ability... support or DD... every 60s.
SE realized that this was dumb so they changed it in.... 2006ish? 2007? Idr when exactly... but it was a while ago.
But from this original format, we can deduce the development concept behind the BPs. (just as how we can deduce how SE believed the job should be played from the AF1 set)

First off, SMN is a DD job. Like BLM it is a Magic-DD, however... SMN also has access to some (formerly) powerful AoE buffs making it a DD-support hybrid. (though firmly in the DD with only a mild case of support. Look at the <75 BPs for that evidence.)
So then, back in the day... how was a DD supposed to deal dmg?
The answer is simple and two fold:
for a magic-DD (BLM) they are supposed to Magic Burst.
But SMN doesn't act like a pure magic-DD... it's only a part of that due to MP being the limiter of its abilities.
The vast majority of SMN's DD BPs (before Merits) are physical. (ignoring cabuncle cause.... he's not a DD Avatar, he's a support Avatar)
Which would then make it more likely that SMN's DD: ie BPs should be compared to the way physical DDs deal damage: WSs.
In the olden days, that would be SCs. Now it's just kinda WSs and self-SCs... but the basic design is still there:
SMN's BPs are equivalent to WSs.
This is why they originally were on one timer, no job can pop out two WSs back to back. (shut up SAM!)
And this is why the timer was 60s. Because that's roughly how long it took to reach 100TP to then use a WS: every 60s.

And this is and was perfectly good design....
However.
The times have changed. ESPECIALLY with Adoulin gear... max gear-haste is soooooo easy to do.
Not to mention the insane amounts of DA and store-TP...
All of this contributes to phys-DDs being able to poop out a WS... roughly every 30s.
You don't even have to be a GOOD phys-DD to do that today either.

And herein lies the problem.
It was erroneous of you to compare BPs to SATA or any other JA... felonious even... because they are the SMN's WSs.
This should be very clear from just looking at the original design of the job. Much like how looking at the fossils of a T-Rex are clear that is was carnivorous.
It's made even MORE clear when you take into account the SMN's AF1 set... because THAT tells us that the devs wanted SMNs to poop out an Avatar, BP, then dismiss... hence why there's so much massive -enmity to the Avatar.

But this is why there is such a unanimous support for -30 cap to BPtimer.
We have seen all other DD classes get more and more fast... They even raised the max haste cap a few years back!
But SMN is kept at 45s...
Which is where everyone else was at 75.
But now... with even MORE haste everywhere... being kept at 75 is just... even more glaring than it was when the level cap was raised to 99.

And I agree with Mokeil: Rude.
Or to put it in your terms: "Seeing as how you are seemingly incapable of grasping the mechanics of summoner, as you keep talking about 'mixed messages' for how the job should be played.... of which there are none. Maybe you should just go and play some other job... or maybe some other game."

When you are the one who doesn't understand something... and then have three people who do understand try and help you understand it... and then you respond to their help by telling them GTFO...
Where I'm from... we cut a bitch for that kind of shenanigan.

[Arciel]

i've kinda given up hope that the devs fix the speed of play for SMN who are slow as hell in the game that is increasingly fast. as others have mentioned, the BP timer was split ONCE, but since then we've been stuck on two timers, with a minimum of 45s per timer. The only new ability so far that has even involved the BP timer is Astral Conduit, which can be used once per hour.

Given the climate of the game now, it isn't enough. If we were to examine each ability as it is.. SMN isn't that bad off - it's pretty good really.. its just that it doesn't work with the BP system in place.

The most popular suggestion around appears to be reducing the BP timers to 30s, which is not a bad idea... but it won't change the fact that SMN is still slower than other jobs.. and will still keep us stuck to a very simple playstyle.

..the other real problem is this.
When ALL your abilities are tagged to the same timer, the obvious choice would be to use the most effective one.. which is why SMN playstyle has not changed like at all.

here's what I propose...

Keep the 45s "hard cap", but implement a bonus timer reduction based on what level the BP is relative to the SMNs current level. The lower level the BP, the more extra reduction it gets... to the point where a new hard cap is reached.

I'd probably do it something like this.

BP is learnt at 10-19 levels (ie, lv80-89 if you're lv99) below SMN current level = BP timer -10s bonus (so 50s, without gear)
BP is 20-29 lvs below SMN, BP timer -15s (at 99, BP lv 70-79) recast = 45s
BP is 30-39 lvs below SMN, BP timer -20s (at 99, BP lv 60-69) recast = 40s
BP is 40-49 lvs below SMN, BP timer -25s (at 99, BP lv 50-59) recast = 35s
BP is 50-59 lvs below SMN, BP timer -30s (at 99, BP lv 40-49) recast = 30s
BP is 60-69 lvs below SMN, BP timer -35s (at 99, BP lv 30-39) recast = 25s
BP is 70-79 lvs below SMN, BP timer -40s (at 99, BP lv 20-29) recast = 20s
BP is 80-89 lvs below SMN, BP timer -45s (at 99, BP lv 10-19) recast = 15s
BP is 90-98 lvs below SMN, BP timer -50s (at 99, BP lv 1-9) recast = 10s

this is before factoring in BP timer gear, so you can take 15s off that... but there will be a new hard cap.. probably 5s. so basically you can't reduce BP timer to anything less than 5s.. but with BP timer gear, your BPs from lv 1-29 should only have 5s recast. This way, people will have more reason to use lower level abilities because they're easier on the timer and may be more MP efficient - you can choose a faster or slower style of play. Astral Flow BPs are not affected so they're always 60s. (anyway not like you can spam without MP).

This would open up a variety of playstyles for SMN. You could spam Lv1 physical BPs every 5s, bearing in mind that even tho they're cheaper the mods are different. Or cheap tier 2 elemental nukes. Or AoE Thunderspark spam for reliable AoE damage. Cheap curespam with Healing Ruby 1 when its not urgent. Nightmare and Sleepga would actually be worth using when you keep the avatar out since it can be reused in a matter of 5-10s. A SMN could potentially put out alot more concurrent buffs than it currently can. Choice of avatar would become more relevant because you would have BPs ready for use even before you can summon another one.. so each one's arsenal might affect the one you choose. If you still prefer to high lv BPs, then there'd be more tactical choice between Fenrir/Diabolos and the Celestials cos Nether Blast/Eclipse Bite would be slightly faster...

things like that, which would make SMN play more interesting and require more thinking on the fly.

...and the funny thing is.. none of any of that is actually going to be overpowered. All the other jobs in the game are THAT much faster and better now.