Woe to ye Summoner! (Mostly not a Cait Sith, Atomos rant thread)

[Xerius]

The path that a Summoner walks is a path of solitude. Especially, in this day-and-age where most Summoners are dealing out more damage than a lot of their pets. For a job that deals in "forbidden arcane magic" it sure does feel like we've been receiving the short end of the stick, I'm just going to point out a few painfully obvious design flaws with the job and it's gear options with the vaguest of hopes that someone from the development team will take the time to read it and maybe have a change of heart and show my most beloved job some mercy.



Perpetuation Cost- Out of every flaw with Summoner this one has always perplexed me the most. Why in Altana's great name, would the job that is most reliant upon it's pets be penalized so harshly for having them out. None of the other pet jobs lose anything for having any of their pets out and why should Summoner? All of our abilities cost boat-loads of MP anyway and have an incredibly restricting timer attached to them. The other pet jobs can bring something to the table without a pet out but what can a Summoner bring to the table? Cure IV?

Satchets - I'm not sure who thought up this nugget of wisdom but please send them to Mordion Gaol for at least a month for it. Thanks to these, we can now say, Goodbye to any stat enhancing gear that may be useful to us for our ammo slot, like Strobilus or the Hedgehog Bomb. Nope now we just get to use our Satchets which bring our avatars up to the barely competent level. The only other job that really has a restriction like this is Puppetmaster but that's something that they've always had to live with.

To Leave Out or Not to Leave Out the Avatar, that is the question - Seriously, Square Enix, I'm getting mixed signals here. Artifact Armor hints that I should use my avatars sparringly. Relic Armor seems to hint that I should keep my avatars out. Empyrean Armor seems to hint that I should leave my avatars out full-time. Seekers of Adoulin gear seems to hint that I should bring my avatars out for spike damage. Avatar's Favor seem to hint that I should leave my avatars out. Perpetuation cost seems to hint that I shouldn't leave my avatars out. See how getting rid of Perpetuation cost would just relieve all of us Summoners from this headache.

Odin and Alexander - These were great when they first came out. Odin was just Odin and requires no further explanation and Alexander gave alliances a reason to bring Summoners to events. So, thank you for making content that was so difficult to clear that you almost NEEDED a Perfect Defense to clear it and then instead of adjusting the difficulty YOU set, instead you decided that Summoners and Scholars were to blame and nerfed our one saving-grace into oblivion.


In conclusion: Haven't we Summoners suffered enough? Can you please just release Cait Sith and Atomos so we can have a few minutes of bliss before we skulk back into the shadows with our Summoners Horn's tucked neatly between our legs in defeat?

[FaeQueenCory]

Gonna split this up to better answer some concerns you have.

The path that a Summoner walks is a path of solitude. Especially, in this day-and-age where most Summoners are dealing out more damage than a lot of their pets. For a job that deals in "forbidden arcane magic" it sure does feel like we've been receiving the short end of the stick, I'm just going to point out a few painfully obvious design flaws with the job and it's gear options with the vaguest of hopes that someone from the development team will take the time to read it and maybe have a change of heart and show my most beloved job some mercy.
LOL the problem of gear has been an issue... for ever. SMN rarely gets any gear that's actually useful (I am ignoring the AFs because all jobs get them) and when we do... we get macro-only pieces.
While we should get.... something.... I for one am glad that we've actually gotten good things from Adoulin.
Sure, it's macro-only MAB stuff... but... +120MAB... That's more love than SMN has gotten in years.
That's more MAB than a lot of the BLM/RDM/SCH staves too. (I know, MAB has deminishing returns so +120 is more for a SMN than for those, and they get +Mdmg too.... but the point still remains that SMN is getting quite a bit of love from Adoulin gear.... Just not the crazy love that physical DD gets... but when have we ever?)

Also.... I highly doubt any smn is out damaging their avatars... in terms of just AA, yes. that is more than believable.
But I don't think you're dropping 3-4k WSs every 45s.




Perpetuation Cost- Out of every flaw with Summoner this one has always perplexed me the most. Why in Altana's great name, would the job that is most reliant upon it's pets be penalized so harshly for having them out. None of the other pet jobs lose anything for having any of their pets out and why should Summoner? All of our abilities cost boat-loads of MP anyway and have an incredibly restricting timer attached to them. The other pet jobs can bring something to the table without a pet out but what can a Summoner bring to the table? Cure IV?
Given how insanely easy to cap -perp cost....
like... you have to try hard to not cap it for Carbuncle... not that the little Sephiroth is any good.... but still.
You get a free -7 from the empy+2 body and feet (still the best idle gear for those slots... it's why we're EXTRA squishy now) and a single Magian stave (which you don't even need the full 99 version) can cap the remaining perp cost down to one.
So... There really isn't any problem with perp cost... it's just a unique job thing that keeps SMN different than BST.
Sure you have to work a little bit for the +3 refresh... but you have to work a little bit to get any job geared well.




Satchets - I'm not sure who thought up this nugget of wisdom but please send them to Mordion Gaol for at least a month for it. Thanks to these, we can now say, Goodbye to any stat enhancing gear that may be useful to us for our ammo slot, like Strobilus or the Hedgehog Bomb. Nope now we just get to use our Satchets which bring our avatars up to the barely competent level. The only other job that really has a restriction like this is Puppetmaster but that's something that they've always had to live with.
OMG.... Yes....
When the Sachets happened.... I was really happy because.... they remembered us for once...
But... the point of the matter is....
BST and DRG's pets are boosted by their main hand weapon....
An item that gives insane bonuses to the player (and to the BST pet in the case of those axes)... while SMN.... get nothing.
No MP.
No skill. (600 Alexander... why can't you exist.)
No nothing.
It would be sooooooo much better if the sachets actually DID something else... like everyone else's gear.
But SMN has never and probably never will be getting anything like that... :(
At least we got something... :/




To Leave Out or Not to Leave Out the Avatar, that is the question - Seriously, Square Enix, I'm getting mixed signals here. Artifact Armor hints that I should use my avatars sparringly. Relic Armor seems to hint that I should keep my avatars out. Empyrean Armor seems to hint that I should leave my avatars out full-time. Seekers of Adoulin gear seems to hint that I should bring my avatars out for spike damage. Avatar's Favor seem to hint that I should leave my avatars out. Perpetuation cost seems to hint that I shouldn't leave my avatars out. See how getting rid of Perpetuation cost would just relieve all of us Summoners from this headache.
This is not even a thing.
The problem that SMN used to have was that the AF1 is designed for how SE thought SMN should be played:
You poop an avatar, use a BP, release.
Basically: Classic FF summoning magic.
The problem was... much like NIN... SE had no idea how ppl would actually PLAY the job.
And this is why the Relic set gives actually useful bonuses (also, the AF1+1 too remedied a LOT of the dumbness in the initial design of the AF1 set... making it much more useful to the 75 smn.)
So this whole issue of how to play the smn isn't a thing at all.
You keep your avatar out, and depending on the situation (eg SMN in VW, you sit with the BLMs and your pt's WHM with diabolos w/ favor up) you use favor, but generally favor isn't ever useful. (though I have found carby's favor is more useful... than he is... :/ )
The Relic and Empy sets give bonuses for how the players showed SE how the job is played.
So, just ignore the AF1... it was a mistake on the dev's part... They wanted to capture the classic FF smn feeling... but this was their first MMO, and didn't know how pets like Avatars work in that setting.




Odin and Alexander - These were great when they first came out. Odin was just Odin and requires no further explanation and Alexander gave alliances a reason to bring Summoners to events. So, thank you for making content that was so difficult to clear that you almost NEEDED a Perfect Defense to clear it and then instead of adjusting the difficulty YOU set, instead you decided that Summoners and Scholars were to blame and nerfed our one saving-grace into oblivion.

Bolded is only true for SMN. SCH is sitting just fine... even with the embrava nerf.
But the Alexander nerf.... "you can get the old potency back with 600+ skill!"
Square.... there's not that much summoning magic skill items in the game...
T_T
BUT they have kept true to their word about no longer making stuff that *needs* PD to be completable.... Adoulin NMs are easier with it... I guess... but you don't NEED PD to be able to beat them.



In conclusion: Haven't we Summoners suffered enough? Can you please just release Cait Sith and Atomos so we can have a few minutes of bliss before we skulk back into the shadows with our Summoners Caller's (fixed) Horn's tucked neatly between our legs in defeat?
I'd rather wait for them to actually be good and polished before they release a crappy avatar.
Isn't one carbuncle enough?

Adoulin is the priority now. It's only 60-70% implemented and then needs to be refined before we'll get the resources for Cait Sith.
Unless they got the one guy who's making all this SMN gear in Adoulin making Her by him/herself... But even then... Don't expect anything until after Adoulin is 100%

[Xerius]

Gonna split this up to better answer some concerns you have.


I understand a lot of what you're saying but one point I think you missed in some of your criticism is how a lot of these problems overlap. For instance having 600 Summoning Magic cap but at the same time the problem of needing the avatar perp cost - gear. Of course you can macro this stuff but we'll quickly run into a RDM-esque situation of only having a few slots available unless of course they put +summoning magic on one of the staves instead of +staff and +parry (I mean come on guys). While everyone else is throwing on new gear and macroing in a few pieces of Empyrean gear Summoner (and Puppetmaster) are stuck still pretty much full-timing their Empyrean gear because the new gear offers us nothing except MP.

I see that we agree on a lot of points and hopefully now that they've announced that more JSE is going to come out SMN will get some love. I guess I'm just tired of my most beloved job being an after-thought in all new content. :'(

[Babekeke]

While everyone else is throwing on new gear and macroing in a few pieces of Empyrean gear Summoner (and Puppetmaster) are stuck still pretty much full-timing their Empyrean gear because the new gear offers us nothing except MP.

New bodies with 2 MP refresh should be the standard idle gear now. There's some nice fast cast gear out there now. Delve head and Skirmish feet are great for MAB during merit BPs.

Uffrat +1 can get -5 perp with just a +1 stone augment!

If you have money to burn you can even get +100-125 pet: attack augmented on the full Hagondes set!

[FaeQueenCory]

I understand a lot of what you're saying but one point I think you missed in some of your criticism is how a lot of these problems overlap. For instance having 600 Summoning Magic cap but at the same time the problem of needing the avatar perp cost - gear. Of course you can macro this stuff but we'll quickly run into a RDM-esque situation of only having a few slots available unless of course they put +summoning magic on one of the staves instead of +staff and +parry (I mean come on guys). While everyone else is throwing on new gear and macroing in a few pieces of Empyrean gear Summoner (and Puppetmaster) are stuck still pretty much full-timing their Empyrean gear because the new gear offers us nothing except MP.
See... no. That's not an overlap.
-perp can be capped in 3 pieces: staff, caller body, caller feet.
And 600 skill is ALEXANDER ONLY.
No one else has any real benefit from it that isn't marginal.
There just isn't any reason to ever fulltime your alexander gear.... and I honestly have no idea why you ever want to. (And races come into play too, ifrits +4 skill ring.... I'm elvaan... I need that +70mp from either a Bifrost or from Saoma much more than I need +4 skill all the time, so for me I have slightly less skill than a taru, mithra, or hume... who can get away with not needing 70mp. Though now with that new cape.... I don't NEED the 70mp as much.... but it's my personal preference that I'd rather have a taru-sized MP pool for smn rather than the entirely unnoticeable benefit from +4 skill. If it was something like +8 or +10... then you'd see a little boost... but anything <5, so long as you have a lot everywhere else, isn't going to boost you all that much.)
You fulltime -perp and macro in +dmg stuff... And you have a whole set to get the largest skill you can get for Alexander.
So you're looking at 3 sets of gear:
idle/-perp
BP
Alexander

An idle and -perp set has a lot of overlap and imo, not worth the extra space for having ALL the +refresh gear you can get a hold of.
BP set is for +dmg stuff.... not -bp timer. That's a dead thing of the past. You are 3s from cap from a single 99 magian staff alone... and smn bracer+2 give you -4... that's 1s wasted. And since you should be idling in the magian staff and smn bracer.... there's no need for a -bp timer macro anymore. Maybe if they ever raise the timer cap to -30... then you'll need a couple more pieces for that again... but now? no. 2 pieces. pretty much fulltimed. you're good to go.
Alexander is the only gear set where you NEED 600 skill. I think with just caller's set +2, summoner's bracers, evoker's ring, new cape/astute, vox grip, merits, and max skill.... you're pushing 500/over. (I can't remember... it's been so long since I've actually looked at my smn skill.... been capped for FOREVER.)
Sure the extra acc/Macc is nice..... but it's so small... you don't need that extra skill for anyone except alexander... not even for favor do you need 600!

I see that we agree on a lot of points and hopefully now that they've announced that more JSE is going to come out SMN will get some love. I guess I'm just tired of my most beloved job being an after-thought in all new content. :'(
LoL I suppose I am not put off by a lack of worthwhile full-time gear... because that's how smn has ALWAYS been.
11yrs of getting 0 good gear... while every other job is getting 10-30 pieces each.
And when we do get the once-in-a-while piece of good gear.... it's macro-only lol
This has always been a thing with smn... so it's not like we became an afterthought... we were never a thought to begin with.


New bodies with 2 MP refresh should be the standard idle gear now. There's some nice fast cast gear out there now. Delve head and Skirmish feet are great for MAB during merit BPs.

Uffrat +1 can get -5 perp with just a +1 stone augment!

If you have money to burn you can even get +100-125 pet: attack augmented on the full Hagondes set!
bleh. Uffrat with -perp? why bother... just make magian staves to idle in and (almost) cap your BP timer in one piece.

And I sort of agree with you about any of the refresh bodies from Adoulin (I'm pretty sure even the first bayld body has +2mp refresh). [hot damn that +6mp refresh! Not that you really need that... but it's really nice.]
But I disagree you you about them idling with an avatar out, idling in the Caller Doublet will be better. (13-15mp, -7 from Caller's hand and feet, that leaves 6-8... so -1 from evoker ring... you're still left with 5 for Fenrir and 7 for everyone else. So Magian Stave -perp is still the best for that sweet -6perp and -12bpdelay.)
But that's just my preference: +3mp refresh. all the time. one more free inventory slot.

And one more thought, Xerius:
Please.... Please.... PLEASE tell me that your are not full empy... PLEASE tell me that you are using the Summoner's Bracers... Because the AF3+2 hands..... Just are awful. They're not even worth using with the HQ elemental staves/Chatoyant.
Because this:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/1/13/Summoner%27s_Bracers_%2B2.jpg
is infinitely better 100% of the time than this:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/c/ce/Caller%27s_Bracers_%2B2.png
-3 def, -8mp, and a normal mana cede....
in exchange for +15skill, -4bptimer....
There is no comparison.

[Babekeke]

bleh. Uffrat with -perp? why bother... just make magian staves to idle in and (almost) cap your BP timer in one Eight pieces. (1 for each element)

Fixed.
And this is why I would prefer Uffrat with -perp on it. You can use Uffrat for Magic BPs and for Avatar Perp, Soulscourge for Melee BPs, and Yaskomo's for BP Ward enfeebs. Now throw away 8 staves for plenty of inv space. You can cap BP timer in 3-4 pieces of Relic +2.


And I sort of agree with you about any of the refresh bodies from Adoulin (I'm pretty sure even the first bayld body has +2mp refresh). [hot damn that +6mp refresh! Not that you really need that... but it's really nice.]
But I disagree you you about them idling with an avatar out, idling in the Caller Doublet will be better.

Sorry, I just said for idling. Not idling with avatar out. If my avatar is out, I'm not idling, as far as I'm concerned.

(13-15mp, -7 from Caller's hand and feet, that leaves 6-8... so -1 from evoker ring... you're still left with 5 for Fenrir and 7 for everyone else. So Magian Stave -perp is still the best for that sweet -6perp and -12bpdelay.)
But that's just my preference: +3mp refresh. all the time. one more free inventory slot.[/QUOTE]

Staves are -7 perp, not -6. And they still only work for 1 avatar.

[Calatilla]

Because this:

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/1/13/Summoner%27s_Bracers_%2B2.jpg
is infinitely better 100% of the time than this:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/c/ce/Caller%27s_Bracers_%2B2.png
-3 def, -8mp, and a normal mana cede....
in exchange for +15skill, -4bptimer....
There is no comparison.
Relic +2 hands are giving you nothing unless using a BP, and the same can be said for AF3+2 hands when you're already capped on -perp. So saying AF2+2 are 100% superior is false. Fulltiming either piece with an avatar out is the same.

[Xerius]

And one more thought, Xerius:
Please.... Please.... PLEASE tell me that your are not full empy... PLEASE tell me that you are using the Summoner's Bracers... Because the AF3+2 hands..... Just are awful. They're not even worth using with the HQ elemental staves/Chatoyant.
Because this:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/1/13/Summoner%27s_Bracers_%2B2.jpg
is infinitely better 100% of the time than this:
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/c/ce/Caller%27s_Bracers_%2B2.png
-3 def, -8mp, and a normal mana cede....
in exchange for +15skill, -4bptimer....
There is no comparison.

Of course I'm not full-time empy. If you're full-time anything on SMN you're probably playing the job wrong. Although how the Relic +2 is better than the Empy +2, is beyond me. The relic is a much better macro piece for blood pacts than it is for full-timing. That Summoning Magic +/Recast - isn't doing anything for you if your avatar is just auto-attacking and after that long winded speech about how Summoning Magic + gear is

ALEXANDER ONLY
it sure is an interesting analogy to make.

[Edyth]

Satchets - I'm not sure who thought up this nugget of wisdom but please send them to Mordion Gaol for at least a month for it. Thanks to these, we can now say, Goodbye to any stat enhancing gear that may be useful to us for our ammo slot, like Strobilus or the Hedgehog Bomb. Nope now we just get to use our Satchets which bring our avatars up to the barely competent level. The only other job that really has a restriction like this is Puppetmaster but that's something that they've always had to live with.


+70 to all avatar stats is better than +30 MP. You lost all credibility. Go away.


Relic +2 hands are giving you nothing unless using a BP, and the same can be said for AF3+2 hands when you're already capped on -perp. So saying AF2+2 are 100% superior is false. Fulltiming either piece with an avatar out is the same.

1. Most of SMN's gear does nothing anyway when not using a blood pact anyway unless it's perpetuation, refresh, or pet damage reduction.
2. It gives physical accuracy, but so does empyrean +2.
3. It gives 15 summoning skill, which is worth 7 points of physical accuracy.
4. The way the gloves are calculated (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11118/call-bracers-2) means they are usually -1 or so perp.
5. Your argument amounts to: it's folly to call the empyrean +2 gloves useless, but you also call them useless if your perp is capped, and you admit that relic +2 is useful during blood pacts. So...you supported the argument you were trying to dismiss: the fact that relic +2 is substantially better.
If you're using Ifrit with Inferno Howl with Dashavatara for assault damage like you should, assault is damn decent damage, making the relic gloves better. Your empyrean +2 gloves are better for MP once per game week or in fortunate weather, yes, but if you choose your avatar based on that, you're probably missing out on something, most likely damage-dealing potential. If you have to pick one pair of gloves or the other, it's relic +2 hands down. They're not situational. They're worth full-timing. And unless you're hitting 2-3 macros for every blood pact, some delay slots have to give, and it's nice to have at least one slot with full-time BP delay reduction.

TL;DR:
Due to the very narrow window of usefulness for empyrean +2 gloves and the fact that it necessitates multiple macros for each blood pact use due to the need to minimize BP timer and it requires you to carry around a second pair of gloves anyway (most likely relic +2), relic gloves +2 are far superior. If you don't mind the inconvenience, then empyrean +2 gloves are nice to have, but they're not necessary. Also, if you have a magian staff or Nirvana, you have no use for empyrean +2 gloves. However, every SMN has a use for relic +2 gloves.

Edit:
Oh yeah, Mana Cede boost is on the +2 gloves. That's a far more valid use for them. Sadly, I don't have the inventory space to lug those things around just for that.

[Xerius]

+70 to all avatar stats is better than +30 MP. You lost all credibility. Go away.


This obviously completely went over your head so let me explain it out word for word. Obviously, +70 stats is better than 30 MP I wouldn't dream of arguing against that. I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand. Hopefully, those words were simple enough for you to understand. :)

[Babekeke]

This obviously completely went over your head so let me explain it out word for word. Obviously, +70 stats is better than 30 MP I wouldn't dream of arguing against that. I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand. Hopefully, those words were simple enough for you to understand. :)

Ummm.... PUP's ranged/ammo slot has always been locked out by the Animator....

And BST jug pet stat increase sucks, from everything I've heard. Though they were much better pre-ilvl than avatars.

[Mokeil]

I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand.

There are only four pet jobs in the game. That means only half of them use the stats of the main weapon to derive their pet's stats. While technically true, saying "all of the other pet jobs" in this case is a bit disingenuous. Also, when looked at from the other side of the fence, that means half of the pet jobs out there are free to choose any weapon they want! I know there are a lot of BSTs who wish they could still make use of their -pdt axes in Adoulin areas...

When you get down to it, no matter which slot is chosen to be the one where the Must Have Pet Boosting Item (MHBPI) goes, it means options are being limited in some way. I would much rather see a debate about whether a single MHPBI is even the right way to go for SMN. Arguing over which slot it goes into just seems silly.


Having already spoken about the sachets, I'd like to take a second to address your other points, as well. I do not feel that these things are major problems facing today's SMN. While they are things that could stand to be looked at, I would put these at the very bottom end of what needs fixing.





Perpetuation Cost
Satchets
To Leave Out or Not to Leave Out the Avatar, that is the question
Odin and Alexander



Points 1 and 3 are closely related. Once upon a time, I'd have said that perpetuation costs need to be done away with. But now that there's enough gear out there to completely minimize - indeed, all but eliminate - it? It's not really a big deal anymore. Likewise, getting to the point where you can just leave an avatar out now is fairly easy. There are plenty of options out there for us to deal with perp costs now. It can even be done with naught but two pieces of +2 empyrean and a magian trial staff. With some actual work, you can get a really impressive set going. (If I can get lucky with the Augment Roulette on a Hagondes coat, my -perp/refresh set will give me a passive +7 auto-refresh while I have an avatar out. That is insane compared to where we were pre-Abyssea!)

With this in mind, I can only view perp costs as inconsequential in the grand scheme of things that plague SMN. Would it be nice if it went away so we could focus on other things instead? Sure. But neither am I going feel that its continued existence is what's holding SMN back.

As for Odin and Alexander... These guys could use some tweaking, but quite honestly? Perfect Defense was ridiculously powerful - to the point where no one would do anything without it. The fact that it was seen as necessary for certain events was just bad game design on the parts of the events. On the other hand, the fact that it's all that got SMN invited to those events is a clear indication that there is bad game design on the part of SMN. Hiding behind Perfect Defense just helped us lose track of where our real problems are, is all.

[Annalise]

This obviously completely went over your head so let me explain it out word for word. Obviously, +70 stats is better than 30 MP I wouldn't dream of arguing against that. I'm arguing about having my ammo slot locked out when all of the other pet jobs, bar-PUP, have their pet's stat increases are derived from the ilvl of the item in their main hand while still getting stats of their own from the item in their main hand. Hopefully, those words were simple enough for you to understand. :)

I'd rather lock the ammo slot than the weapon slot (as that is what would be locked if people are comparing it to DRG, and your mention of main hand weapon). To me, it would be annoying to have to have Balsam Staff on to have the best avatar at any given moment. Using a magian perpetuation staff would gimp your avatar pretty bad if it is auto-attacking. The ammo slot has always been pretty lackluster for summoner. Slight pet MAB or a bit of MP. This is what Edyth is referring to. By locking the ammo slot, SMN is not losing much.

Other pet jobs typically full time their weapons. How often do you see a DRG, PUP or BST changing around their weapon? They lose TP. They don't. SMN changes weapons (at least they should) fairly often. Why would you want to lock a slot that is constantly changed around? How often did you change ammo on SMN before the sash?

[FaeQueenCory]

Fixed.
And this is why I would prefer Uffrat with -perp on it. You can use Uffrat for Magic BPs and for Avatar Perp, Soulscourge for Melee BPs, and Yaskomo's for BP Ward enfeebs. Now throw away 8 staves for plenty of inv space. You can cap BP timer in 3-4 pieces of Relic +2.



Sorry, I just said for idling. Not idling with avatar out. If my avatar is out, I'm not idling, as far as I'm concerned.
You seem to have misunderstood my statement. I meant that the magian staves will always be better than anything Uffrat any other staff to date to be equipped 99% of the time, because you not only halve your perp cost, but you reduce your BP timer to almost the cap (-12, cap is 15) in ONE SLOT.
Sure you need 7 staves (we are ignoring carbuncle... because... screw that guy.) to get that for every avatar....
But you're gonna be using that same amount of inventory space to get the -12 BP timer you lost from not using the magian stave.
That was my "one" statement that you fixed but didn't really because I was referring to the equipment slot and not the inventory slot.


Of course I'm not full-time empy. If you're full-time anything on SMN you're probably playing the job wrong. Although how the Relic +2 is better than the Empy +2, is beyond me. The relic is a much better macro piece for blood pacts than it is for full-timing. That Summoning Magic +/Recast - isn't doing anything for you if your avatar is just auto-attacking and after that long winded speech about how Summoning Magic + gear is

it sure is an interesting analogy to make.
To Quote Liz Lemon: Whatthewhat?!

I see what you tried to do there.... but no. Just... no.

Edyth has already explained it to you using maths.... but I'mma make this simple:


Relic+2:
slightly less MP than empy+2 (only a Galka would care about how little it is)
+15 skill (which = +7ish acc, which.... is how your avatar hits stuff)
-4 BP timer (with a magian stave, you're 1 over cap... and no need for more inventory clog.)
the enhances acc is the same.



Empy+2:
slightly more MP than relic+2 (only a Galka would care about how little it is)
half remaining perp (not whole perp. the left over AFTER -perp effects... which if you have empy+2 body and feet... that's -7/15... and an evoker ring is -8/15 meaning all you need now is 6. oh look. magian staves again.)
enhances mana cede (do you ever use this? it's a nifty little ability... but you can't tell me that the cost of 100mp to make a BP slightly better is worth it? they already cost so much anyways! But if you actually DO use this... macro it.)
the enhances acc is the same.


The ONLY argument that can be made for using the empy+2 hands if you have the relic hands...
Blood Boon proc happens more with 5/5 than 4/5.
That's it.
And even then... the proc rates are so low that 4/5 is basically the same as 5/5.
Everything else offered by the empy hands is either also offered from the relic (MP; enhances acc), functionally useless in today's game (mana cede; half remaining perp depending on the day/weather) or a very marginal situational thing (blood boon)...
And one of those things the relic does BETTER (enhancing acc).


I'd rather lock the ammo slot than the weapon slot (as that is what would be locked if people are comparing it to DRG, and your mention of main hand weapon). To me, it would be annoying to have to have Balsam Staff on to have the best avatar at any given moment. Using a magian perpetuation staff would gimp your avatar pretty bad if it is auto-attacking. The ammo slot has always been pretty lackluster for summoner. Slight pet MAB or a bit of MP. This is what Edyth is referring to. By locking the ammo slot, SMN is not losing much.

Other pet jobs typically full time their weapons. How often do you see a DRG, PUP or BST changing around their weapon? They lose TP. They don't. SMN changes weapons (at least they should) fairly often. Why would you want to lock a slot that is constantly changed around? How often did you change ammo on SMN before the sash?
Um... before uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam staves... you'd pop in that pet MAB ammo during a magic BP...
And it was for something pathetic: +1...
An Esper stone.
But since MAB has diminishing returns... and uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam give your Avatar between 60 and 120 MAB...
that +1 is gonna be maybe 1 dmg... maybe. (that's a hyperbole... but only slightly.)
But now?
Ha. No. Never.

Though to be fair... Galka and Elvaan smns felt the hurt from the loss of that +45MP we were keeping up there... But we kinda got over it with the +55 more we got from the new cape. (+100-45=+55 more)

[Annalise]

Um... before uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam staves... you'd pop in that pet MAB ammo during a magic BP...
And it was for something pathetic: +1...
An Esper stone.
But since MAB has diminishing returns... and uffrat/yaksomoto/Balsam give your Avatar between 60 and 120 MAB...
that +1 is gonna be maybe 1 dmg... maybe. (that's a hyperbole... but only slightly.)
But now?
Ha. No. Never.

Though to be fair... Galka and Elvaan smns felt the hurt from the loss of that +45MP we were keeping up there... But we kinda got over it with the +55 more we got from the new cape. (+100-45=+55 more)

And what would you macro in back after? +MP ammo? That's doing so much for you right after using a bloodpact and not having full MP. You could pretty much fulltime the Esper stone after your first bloodpact and unless you are back to full MP, there will really be no difference at all.

The ammo slot was pretty useless for SMN. Now it has much more use.

[FaeQueenCory]

And what would you macro in back after? +MP ammo? That's doing so much for you right after using a bloodpact and not having full MP. You could pretty much fulltime the Esper stone after your first bloodpact and unless you are back to full MP, there will really be no difference at all.

The ammo slot was pretty useless for SMN. Now it has much more use.
Well, for one... the esper stone was basically useless anyways. +1MAB? wooooooooo soooooo much more dmg. [/sarcasm]

And way to be racist!
lol
That's marginally a joke.... cause you are ignoring the problems that certain races have.
For a Galka or Elvaan smn... if you really felt the need to macro that esper stone (I did for a bit, then dropped it cause it's basically worthless). Macroing back in a +MP piece was really good.
Because... y'know... auto-refesh?
You have 45s to fill up that +45MP... and at +1mp/s (+3mp/tic)... You have that much "lost" back.
And that's just auto-refresh.
Not to mention elemental siphons... and whatever /mage you're using needs that MP too.

I'm not arguing that esper stone was good... cause it was shittier than shit.
I was just saying that there was something that some people lost.

And, as an Elvaan smn, I find that the trade off of 45MP is a big kick to the butt... BUT is TOTES worth the +7/14Lvs that the new sachets give.

Though what *I* lament is that it is the only thing they give.... while BST axes got all those pretty green numbers and +acc... and DRG polearms too.... PUP is the only one who didn't really loose much... but they lost a bit too with the new animators not having a hidden +XDEX stat to the PUP. (I think the best was +4DEX before? idr)

Considering that for PUP and SMN, these ammos are required... and waaaaay moreso than any DREMSs (Delve-Relic-Empyrean-Mythic-Skirmish+1) ever will be... cause... there's 4 of those per weapon...
It would have been a lot nicer to have something for the smn. +skill... +mp.... +eva... +pet acc... whatever!
Just... SOMETHING so that it doesn't feel like a dead slot.

[Annalise]

Well, for one... the esper stone was basically useless anyways. +1MAB? wooooooooo soooooo much more dmg. [/sarcasm]

And way to be racist!
lol
That's marginally a joke.... cause you are ignoring the problems that certain races have.
For a Galka or Elvaan smn... if you really felt the need to macro that esper stone (I did for a bit, then dropped it cause it's basically worthless). Macroing back in a +MP piece was really good.
Because... y'know... auto-refesh?
You have 45s to fill up that +45MP... and at +1mp/s (+3mp/tic)... You have that much "lost" back.
And that's just auto-refresh.
Not to mention elemental siphons... and whatever /mage you're using needs that MP too.

I'm not arguing that esper stone was good... cause it was shittier than shit.
I was just saying that there was something that some people lost.

And, as an Elvaan smn, I find that the trade off of 45MP is a big kick to the butt... BUT is TOTES worth the +7/14Lvs that the new sachets give.

Though what *I* lament is that it is the only thing they give.... while BST axes got all those pretty green numbers and +acc... and DRG polearms too.... PUP is the only one who didn't really loose much... but they lost a bit too with the new animators not having a hidden +XDEX stat to the PUP. (I think the best was +4DEX before? idr)

Considering that for PUP and SMN, these ammos are required... and waaaaay moreso than any DREMSs (Delve-Relic-Empyrean-Mythic-Skirmish+1) ever will be... cause... there's 4 of those per weapon...
It would have been a lot nicer to have something for the smn. +skill... +mp.... +eva... +pet acc... whatever!
Just... SOMETHING so that it doesn't feel like a dead slot.

I do understand that as a Hume, I have a boatload of MP and a lot of refresh on Summoner. As an Elvaan, with same gear/merits you will have 100 less MP than me. Which you could pretty much make up for eating food if you wanted it (because I don't eat food on Summoner). Elvaan also gets bigger converts than a Hume does FYI.

I am well aware of all of the refresh on SMN and siphon/convert. This is why max MP hardly matters anymore and why a +45 mp ammo won't break you. I can manage my MP for a long time on SMN spamming bloodpacts without any support (up to 9/tick MP solo with avatar out currently; 1 trait, 2 head, 1 earring, 1 legs, 3 refresh spell, and at times 1 hand). And if I have someone giving me refresh 2 or evoker's or ballad, it's just ridiculous MP.

My original counterargument, though, was about how the ammo slot (which you also agree is pretty lackluster for smn) is much better than locking the weapon slot. And you want something like +pet acc on it? It is already increasing that.