REM Revamp does not include instruments

[VoiceMemo]

Here I am posting again to see if SE will reconsider their
decision not to add instruments to the REM revamps.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/33458-Follow-up-Level-99-Relic-Mythic-Empyrean-and-Walk-of-Echoes-Weapons?p=437742#post437742

I think this is the perfect time to add in a Gjallarhorn 99 only song, again my suggestion for this song is Massacre Elegy.

Far too long has horn been considered a 2nd class relic. All other relics, with the exception of shield had a unique weaponskill(before the weps came out that allowed you to use those weapon skills wielding said weps). Granted yes Gjallarhorn
is powerful in its All songs +4 stat(albeit only +1 better than the instruments with +3 stats), the only songs it really helps are Scherzo(Mass chalemie Scherzo +1 vs +4 from Gjallarhorn 99) and ballad (Crooner's Cinthara +1 vs +4 Gjallarhorn 99).

We did the same amount of work as any other relic holder to complete their weapon
We got the base, the synthesis items, the attestation, the fragment, and lets not forget all the ancient currency that was needed for the upgrades. Yes we're not a relic weapon(shield isn't too), but Gjallarhon IS a relic. Should it not get equal treatment as other relics? If other relics get upgrades why shouldn't we? I'm not saying it should be "All songs+5 or higher(though it would be nice but mostlikely overpowring), but why not a Gjallarhorn specific song?

Granted yes the mp that is refreshed from Gjallarhorn 99, combined
with Daurdabla at 90 is 21mp/tic(if you include the +1 from Aoidos' Rhing. +2)

Bards are one of the few jobs that is needed alot with the current state of game.
I see many delve shouts on asura always needing bards.

And yes bard is a thankless job at times. We can't claim to be a massive dd, a powerful nuker, or the best healer. The only thing we do well is buff others around us. Bard is the ultimate support class, and we live vicariously though others. We make them stronger, they usually get all the glory, and rarely it comes down to the bard has saved the day(As I've played main bard for some 8+ years, I think only 1 situation where bard saved the day was BCNM 40 steamed sprouts).

Bards in my opinion are the grease that makes the gears of a good party run smoothly. We help to compensate where the party is lacking and increase stats that are needed to help the party kill faster or survive longer. Granted yes other jobs do this, IE COR, GEO. But they are not total support. They have the ability to do damage with guns and magic. Yes bard has dagger, but becuase of the duration of our songs, it severely limits the time we could pull it out and do some damage as we are buffing both the mages and dd in our party.

so I ask again please reconsider the decision that instruments will not be included in the REM revamp. I believe this is a perfect opportunity to add a Gjallarhorn specific spell which has been far too long overlooked.

[FaeQueenCory]

I hate BRD.
I mean... I REALLY hate it.... I HATE it.
The powerless feeling I get when I dabbled in it.... uhg... words can not express how much I hated every minute of it.

That being said...
I think that this is something to be considered... Though I think you might be a bit confused with the REM update. They're just changing the base dmg and adding some of that "fake" skill levels to the 90-99 versions (iirc, it might be only 95-99).
So as to the update in things like stats and abilities... I don't believe they've said anything about changing them.

But having done a quick look at the "afterglow" Gjallarhorn.....
There is no "afterglow".
Aegis has an afterglow effect... though I am not sure how it triggers... the fact that it has one and Gjallarhorn doesn't...
But then again... I am unsure of how to trigger one for an instrument and also of what one could be without unhinging things.
BUT... all things considered... seeing as how there IS a 99-2 Gjallarhorn... Why not make the instrument's "afterglow" a spell?
It would give reason to make the upgrade... and could be implemented in the same update that the REM overhaul happens in. (which given the UI going up on the Test Server... I'm expecting it to happen sometime soon-ish... December at the latest if the UI overhaul -which was consuming a lot of dev resources- goes golden in the september update.)

And as to being a thankless role... well... yeah... it really is... (which probably compounds the neutered feeling I had when playing it) But then whms will be overlooked too... and whm and brd are probably two of the most vital jobs in a party... not because they will save the day... but because without them (or with a bad one of them) there is a severe noticeable difference in... well... everything.
And dear god do I thank every player who plays a BRD..... because that means I never have to.

[VoiceMemo]

The link I posted specifically says instruments will not be included. I'm not a DD, however I do understand that upping just the base damage will not be enough to make relic weapons valuable again. When you look at delve megaboss weapons, they also have alot of skill for that weapon type on them.

My post was not so much about relic weapons, but about Gjallarhorn. That it is indeed a relic, yet because its buffing/dot/enfeebling. That it's not getting updated along with the other relics and that is being unfair. We Gjallarhorn owners put just as much effort as any other relic holder to obtain the currency, synthesis, and rare ex items that we should get some type of boost.

[FaeQueenCory]

The link I posted specifically says instruments will not be included. I'm not a DD, however I do understand that upping just the base damage will not be enough to make relic weapons valuable again. When you look at delve megaboss weapons, they also have alot of skill for that weapon type on them.

My post was not so much about relic weapons, but about Gjallarhorn. That it is indeed a relic, yet because its buffing/dot/enfeebling. That it's not getting updated along with the other relics and that is being unfair. We Gjallarhorn owners put just as much effort as any other relic holder to obtain the currency, synthesis, and rare ex items that we should get some type of boost.
The REM weapons are also getting those "fake" skill buffs for the 99 versions.
But they haven't mentioned any rough guidelines for them yet, unlike the damage levels.

Gjallarhorn 99-2 should have an "afterglow" and said "afterglow" should be a special song.

[Creelo]

Afterglow Gjallarhorn should not be given a special song.

No.

[Babekeke]

So, if they gave Ghorn an afterglow, how would you make it proc?

Weapons afterglow procs after using the relic WS which, on the most part, are rubbish. Aegis procs after using shield bash, which is on a 2:30 (if fully merited) timer. You could hardly get an afterglow just for singing!

Stuff like this always makes me laugh. There are jobs out there that are completely broken, and can't ever get to do decent content, yet jobs like MNK WHM BRD, which are guaranteed slots, complain that "I want new spells", "My kick attacks don't do enough damage" or "My horn doesn't have an afterglow and isn't getting +200 skill like all the other relics".

[Deifact]

Just add an afterglow that changes your character model into lady gaga riding on the back of Odin who is wearing a leather harness, bottomless chaps and a gimp mask while shooting rainbow laserbeams out of his eyes. While you spray glitter out of your GHorn at monsters and charm them.

[Annalise]

The update to REM weapons is due to the weapons now being outdated and very underpowered compared to the new delve weapons. I could level any DD job to 99 and buy its Delve weapon (or even AH one like Senbaak Nagen) and, provided we both know what we are doing, I will outdo someone using R/M/E. Unless something is done, why would anyone now bother to make anything that isn't Ochain/Aegis/Gjallarhorn/Daurdabla/Yagrush/the other few useful weapons left? And what about all of the people who have already made them?

When did Gjallarhorn/Daurdabla/Ochain/Aegis become outdated and underpowered? They didn't. I can't level BRD to 99 and quickly be an elite bard like I could with a DD job. It still takes a lot of work to get both Daurdabla and Gjallarhorn if I want to be the best bard possible.

This is their reasoning behind why they are not updating shield or instruments. The shields and instruments, as they intend, will always be number one. You're really comparing apples to oranges. Many of the R/M/E weapons become overshadowed completely by new gear. The instruments did not.

[Glamdring]

iLevel, we don't get one from our primary gear piece (hint, it ain't dagger, you have to play it), RME will certainly get an iLevel buff, we won't.

As to afterglow, as said above, how the hell would you proc it? waste of time on an instrument. The other point tho, this game is now solely gear aquizition based, for bard there's no point, none of the new stuff (even that flute) is better than what we had at 99, except for a bit more def. Maybe the AF revamps will change that, no idea yet, but again, our armor isn't our primary tool, our instruments are. They don't need to boost the numbers on Ghorn, or add more songs to daurdaubla, but some wind/string/singing+ would sure as hell be a good idea, and I'm sure other stats could be made to work, traditionally recast down, casting time down have been viable, but I could also see a boost to duration that stacks, or straight boosts to troubadour and nightengale, etc. All would be in keeping with raising instruments up and giving us bards a goal that isn't "get everyone else their stuff, and I hope you have another job to work for yourself, good luck ever getting to play it." As to another song, I'm kind of indifferent unless it's something new to bard, like a regain song, a terror barrier, something USEFUL, but I suppose a 3rd slow song if inspiration is totally failing.

[Annalise]

Keep in mind, at least for shield, SE said that OChain would have an ilvl of 150 if it were assigned one. I am sure Daur and Gjallar would be asigned high ilvls as well. Nothing in Adoulin touches the instruments.

[VoiceMemo]

Many of you seem to have misinterpreted my point of this post so I will clarify.

This post was not about that we need to get +5 or higher on gjallarhorn or 5+ songs
on daurdabla. It was not about afterglow and how to make it work.

Yes Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla are still powerful and nothing delve has outdates it.

My main point was to address the inequality between the original relic weapons
and Gjallarhorn. All oringinal weapons had a unique weapon skill associated with the
weapon. That was only accessable if you wielded that weapon.(till the weps that allowed
you to do them from abyssea appeared)

Gjallarhorn and Aegis were the only 2 that didn't get a unique ability with the aquisition
of the instrument/shield.

I'm just proposing that SE finally give Gjallarhorn something unique to distinguish it, other
than being the ballad instrument. All other relics, aside from bow and gun are shown on the character. And you can then distinguish a relic owner visually or by when they perform the weaponskill in party. Gjallarhorn is the only relic that you have to either check the person, know the person has it already(from server rep), or see the person singing the song to see the Gjallarhorn skin. Giving Gjallarhorn a unique song would be akin to seeing the relic weaponskill during party.

Since SE said in the previous post that they will be giving Massacre Elegy(100% slow, which IMO
would be helpful), but they didn't want all bards to have it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12312-Bard-Job-Manifesto

Post 8

So why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone. By putting Massacre elegy on the 99 version, it
1) won't be for everyone
2) fixes the inequality that existed since 75 relic when weapons got something unique, and
3) includes us in an update where the relic weapons get boosted to higher power.

On Asura for delve, bards seem to be in high demand, but not that many people want to be bards. Perhaps if SE did add a unique song(worthwhile song) more may want to play the job.

Just because SE wrote themselves into a corner(see my post about Brd EMP+2 armor), should not exclude Gjallarhorn/Aegis from an update. They are still relics, they were just as much work as relic weapons.

An IRL analogy is that all those that have relic are employees of the same pay grade. Then the company gives a bonus out to all employees BUT the ones who are marked aegis and gjallarhorn.

[Babekeke]

Not many people want to play bard because it can be really annoying, not because it doesn't have a new, original song.

Take Daurdabla owners for example. You go into morimar delve, sing your 3-4 songs then everyone goes off to fight. Someone pulls an eft, and the eft does dispelga TP move. All you see in the chat log is that everyone lost 1 song. Now you have to re-sing all your songs, and you have to sing them all with daurdabla again, so that the songs don't just over-write songs that didn't get dispelled.

Not to mention the 1 guy that always runs from you when you start singing.

[VoiceMemo]

So just because so many DON'T like to play brd, those of use who DO enjoy playing it and want to excel in the job should be excluded?

Everyone likes to get updates, so why do we get excluded?

All I'm asking for is to be included in the update, to get something not just stagnant. That's why I think SE wrote themselves into a corner when they made brd EMP+2. They didn't forsee adoulin and have no ideas what to do for brd. I'm giving my suggestion, if they take it great, if not so be it. I've emailed SE many suggestions for brd as I love playing it.

[Babekeke]

So just because so many DON'T like to play brd, those of use who DO enjoy playing it and want to excel in the job should be excluded?

I was specifically responding to this line here:


On Asura for delve, bards seem to be in high demand, but not that many people want to be bards. Perhaps if SE did add a unique song(worthwhile song) more may want to play the job.

And I'm telling you that if ppl don't want to play BRD, it's not because they don't find the current list of songs interesting lol.


I've emailed SE many suggestions for brd as I love playing it.

Oh, you're 'that guy'.

[Reain]

Not sure about Massacre Elegy on Gjallarhorn. I think Gjallarhorns have become too common and easy to obtain for it. Perhaps though depending on how hard the overhauled weapons are to get. I would like it, though it would still be adding new content to an old weapon. Why Gjallarhorn and not an Adoulin era weapon or scroll? I do support giving shields and instruments something though.

I do think the songs are boring. Songs like Scherzo are interesting. I would welcome new songs with unique effects. The +242 skill update really killed the need for a lot of our buffs. If you logged in as a level 120 bard the first thing you would do if check what new songs there were and we've got nothing yet song-wise.

[Calipso]

I skimmed through the responses, so sorry if this has been mentioned as far.

I'm not sure why they don't plan to include Brd weapons in their updates.

I can understand how adding something like an extra song to Daurdabla, or an extra +1 to G-horn might make them "over powered", and why they wouldn't want to go that route.

However, giving them more singing/wind/etc skill would be perfectly acceptable and keep their updates in-line with what other R/E/Ms are getting. To my understanding, the whole point of adding +skill to weapons was to make up for the differences in levels and make things easier (I probably didn't explain that right, but I'm sure you get the jist of it). Basically, other weapons have +skill on them to boost their stats: att, acc, their damage goes up, they miss less. Heck, even the mage versions of weapons get that- huge amounts of Magic Accuracy and Magic Damage. Why are brd weapons any less important? Do we not need to land Elegy, Threnodies, Nocturne on higher level mobs? Should we not have slightly stronger buffs from increased skill to help counter higher level content? Every other job is given mass amounts of +skill or +magic acc/dmg, and brd is left out. Why? o_O

I don't necessarily agree that they need to give a specific song (thought it does make sense, weapons get a weapon skill, why wouldn't we get a song?), but they should at least be buffing the base stats (CHR, Skill etc) on them. Heck, the Magic Accuracy on 99 Carnwenhan is only +25, which not only fails compared to a Chatoyant staff, but is a complete and utter joke compared to the +135 on Soothsayer =/

If they were gonna give a unique song to Horn, I'd much rather prefer that it was either a third tier of March (that gives the same amount of haste as 1+2), or something like all carols rolled into one, or a "Boost-All" type spell that gives +x to each stat.

[Darthjahjahbear]

Im a little late to jump on this post but o well. I recentlyin september made my ghorn+harp. Firstrelic/emp for me . Needless to say I was absolutely pissed/offended when I saw shields/instruments werent being touched. Sadsad news for any pld but brd especially. At least plds got good job pertinent weapon upgrades. Carnwenhan didnt even get a time boost or anything. The excuse that brds and plds relics are strong enough is bull. Everyone deserves a boost even if it is a smaller one .... just some ideas. .. im sure theuve all been mentioned tho.

Ghorn
- non dispellable music
- magic accuracy
- more + songs. Balance you say? Dds now have weapons with 200++¡ base dmg we have to keep up!
Daurdabla
- unlocked extra song/s via WOE method
- more songs (yes due to clarion call why not give us 1 more max?)

Carnwenhan
- CONSIDERABLY more somg time..... lol. Why spend 300m+ time on this when I can pick up a similar knife on the ah. This mythic is currently trash compared to others and needs some major adjustment. How about songs that dont go away til zoning? Its a multi million dollar mythic and it should perform as such.....

I do not play PLD but I feel for any pld that is upset also. Just a few ideas...

Ochain
- chance to block/nullify magic attacks

Aegis
- chance to absorb magic damage

We just want something. Even little tweaks like this would be progress. Its not like we expect all songs +10 and ten extra songs. Just unlock the bard songs from the harp and give us nondispellable music.aside from mainly ballads there isnt much distinguishing a relic/emp bards songs. Trust me it is humiliating as a bard when we have the best instruments in the game and our songs get busted by some low level eft. I see it as more embarassing/tedious than hard. Btw when I found out we werent getting instriment boosts I quit brd for the most part. You guys abandoned our accomplishments and I might be abandoning ff11because of it. Overpowerful my foot. Peoplewith power always need MORE. Remember that your lack of creativity/thinking outside of the box to upgrade these is just pathetic!
-.

[saevel]

Carnwenhan
- CONSIDERABLY more somg time..... lol. Why spend 300m+ time on this when I can pick up a similar knife on the ah. This mythic is currently trash compared to others and needs some major adjustment. How about songs that dont go away til zoning? Its a multi million dollar mythic and it should perform as such.....

Wtf .... you obviously don't know what Carn does. It's +40% song duration, the other dagger is only +10%. The important thing about Carn is that you can get your songs to last over 9m, that's longer then the duration of Delve boss fights even with less the perfect situations.

[detlef]

It's actually 50%.

[saevel]

It's actually 50%.

Yep type on my part. That just makes it that much better then some AH dagger.

[Glamdring]

sorry to say, but I think SE has decided bard is just about done as a job. apparently all our songs work on a precentage boost (or debuff in the case of elegy and the like) that they don't want to increase. So, other than gear that gives us a higher DEF-at the expense of a nerf on our other stats-we don't seem to be able to look forward to much of anything except obsolesence when the new gear bumps the need for support role jobs.

I ain't happy about that.