Can we please have Atinian Staff?

[Demon6324236]

When you look at RDM in the last few months since Delve was released it finally found a home with its Enfeebling Magic, but, the update to change the Atinian Staff's stats as well as Soothsayers, and the Skirmish staff, put RDM back in the spot of being worthless.

We were best at Enfeebling magic because of higher skill, more accuracy, we could land the buffs the easiest, not because we had better potency or anything, that's a minor bonus, but the main reason was we could land it best. Now, that changed, with this...

http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/8/8e/Atinian_Staff_description.png

180 Magic Accuracy before any Magic Accuracy from the Combat Skill, something I do not think was implemented yet, but it has been mentioned. If Combat skill adds on to Magic Accuracy from this staff you are looking at 401~407 Magic Accuracy from this staff. Compare that to the best a RDM can use, these two staves...

http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/e/e9/Soothsayer_Staff_description.png
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/d/d9/Lehbrailg_%2B1_description.png

Normally both have the same exact stats except for the 50MP on Soothsayer. Without augments they both have 302~307 Magic Accuracy after the skill figures into the Magic Accuracy, before hand its still 45 less than Atinian. Normally I would say give Atinian to BLM, they deserve it, but, this is a very vital stat for RDM, its a stat that literally effects out most important spells in the most important way. Even if you fully augment a Soothsayer with Magic Accuracy, you are looking at an extra 13 from the augment, and then 5~10 more from the INT/MND, leaving you with 18~23 more Magic Accuracy, 330 at very most, while without augments, or even the +1, Atinian has a nice 400+. To me, this is unfair to RDM, we need this staff to be worth bringing for Enfeebling. If a change is not made, then soon enough people will simply bring SCH for Blind, Para, Silence, or whatever they need, since the job can provide more buffs and such to the party they are in and help speed up the party by being /RDM. SCH would once again eclipse RDM on the magic side of the job in every way, and since no one believes in RDM Melee on anything hard for good reason, it once again leaves the job as a reject.

[FaeQueenCory]

Isn't Atinian the 117 staff?
And when you yourself make comment about how the Macc is only different of <45pts...... I'm not really seeing anything... wrong here.
The higher level staff has better stats... ok. But the difference is marginal.
Especially because you shouldn't be relying on one piece of gear to give your Macc.

RDM is in a weird place... partially due to SCH just existing... but crying about these staves.... that's not what should be talked about.

EDIT: And besides.... hasn't it been shown elsewhere that the magian magic afinity: Macc staves out perform even the newer staves....? I'm pretty sure the magic affinity: Mdmg do... what with all the +10~25MAB being thrown around on gear now.

[Demon6324236]

I'm not 100% sure but I'm fairly confident that Magian staves do not beat the Atinian Staff.

Yes its higher level, but the problem is, other jobs have more magic accuracy than we do. When all jobs were equal on Magic Accuracy before the skill update RDM was very good to bring for Enfeebling because it had the most Magic Accuracy for those Enfeebles. The issue is that now, with this change, if you only take the base stats of the weapon then a SCH would end up having 45 more Magic Accuracy off of this weapon slot, and since almost all of the same gear a RDM would use for Enfeebling is used by a SCH, and vice versa, its the most important change. A SCH normally has 334 Enfeebling Magic Skill, however this is boosted up to 404 by having either Light or Dark Arts up since both effect that skill, RDM has 424 skill. Naturally, we have 20 more Magic Accuracy because of this. The thing is, 20 Magic Accuracy as an advantage is small, but its an advantage, now if you use all the same gear between the two jobs, and SCH has this shiny new staff, the SCH has more Magic Accuracy than RDM, which once again puts RDM in the trash can because SCH can simply do it better. When Enfeebling, SCH also has a trait they can use over and over again to give them a Magic Accuracy boost if its merited, and the other merits in that category suck, so really, they should have it.

So not only would a SCH possibly have more Magic Accuracy normally from stratagems, but now they have more naturally from just gear and having an Arts up. Also, all of this ignores the idea that skill on a weapon will change to effect a weapons Magic Accuracy as well. If staffs are not excluded from this, and its a direct conversion, 162 Skill becomes 162 Magic Accuracy, 215 Skill becomes 215 Magic Accuracy, and that sets RDM back another 53 Magic Accuracy behind SCH. This means our actual native skill would mean nothing for Enfeebling, after all, we have a higher skill, but everyone else can land our spells with almost a 50% better land rate from Skill/Magic Accuracy on the Staff, or without skill, a 22~23% better land rate. To me, this is a big issue, RDM finally has a use, something that put it above others, but unless it can Enfeeble better than other jobs it will be very short lived and RDM will simply crumble once again.

[dasva]

Isn't Atinian the 117 staff?
And when you yourself make comment about how the Macc is only different of <45pts...... I'm not really seeing anything... wrong here.
The higher level staff has better stats... ok. But the difference is marginal.
Especially because you shouldn't be relying on one piece of gear to give your Macc.

RDM is in a weird place... partially due to SCH just existing... but crying about these staves.... that's not what should be talked about.

EDIT: And besides.... hasn't it been shown elsewhere that the magian magic afinity: Macc staves out perform even the newer staves....? I'm pretty sure the magic affinity: Mdmg do... what with all the +10~25MAB being thrown around on gear now.

The complaint isn't about the difference in stats so much as rdm isn't on the higher one.


Also as far as macc goes both of these completely destroy magians. As far as pure dmg it kinda depends on tier and gearing but antinian should win iirc on like anything below tier 5... but well those are horribly inefficient now. Why cast stone V for 3k for 156 mp when you can cast a stone I for 4 mp and do 1k dmg? Plus the resist rates will actually put magians lower anyways.

Also in reference to demon I SERIOUSLY doubt the staffs skill will be part of the skill to macc update. That was specifically for hybrid jobs that use melee weapons without macc on them. If they did that with these staffs it wouldn't solve anything. Mages would still have a good 130-200 more macc on the weapon the hybridish people. Not to mention that would also be kinda insane. I mean look at antinian. supposed to be ilvl 117 so basically should be making up for 17 lvls of macc if it got effectively 400 macc that would be equivalent to more like 50+ lvls of macc <.<

[Demon6324236]

Even if its only from the Magic Accuracy on the staff, it still hurts RDM a lot on Enfeebling. Though if hybrid jobs get Magic Accuracy equal to the skill on each of their weapons, not only a single weapon from Dualwielding, then RDM could actually be put back on top again. After all, Dual Wield Buramenk'ah with Hala and you have 242 from Bura and 162 from Hala. In all honesty, going by what your saying, even though I agree, hybrid jobs would become more accurate than mages from their weapons in that case because they get more skill from their weapons, or at least, some of them do, like RDM. Its really a question of how they do it all though.

I am curious how they will do the Skill=Magic Accuracy thing, but for now, this staff still puts RDM below SCH, and probably even BLM, when it comes to Enfeebling. Since SCH is a staple job in any event due to its stunning powers, its a primary candidate for replacing RDM once again from Alliances by simply subbing RDM.

[dasva]

Oh I totally agree. Right now even a geo can do a rdms job better than an rdm lol. That said it will probably be mainhand only kinda like for blu physical spell acc right now. That said bura/Tamaxchi would be hot. As far as hybrids having more... yes from weapon but basically only if you have the megaboss version if you using t4/5 weapons it should be close. At least assuming it's a 1 for 1 thing. Though all the amounts we can get thru gearing now would make rdm still higher.

What they really need to do is get on adding a delve megaboss crafted and/or direct drop of each weapon type already. THe difference between t4/5 and boss lvl is huge. So need to hurry up finishing adding the other weapon types.... and in the mean time put more jobs on that normally use that stuff. No reason all pure mages shouldn't be on ant. Or war on Seenbak etc

And finally they need to include other jobs weapons not just so called hybrids. Even non hybrid dmg jobs have magical ws (though they have completely ignored how base dmg of those and magical blu spellcs goes up with lvl and haven't added to that. So while weapons get huge boosts to base dmg and therefore to physical ws magical are getting nothing other than stats which the physical are also getting) or ws with additional effects or for that matter weapons with additional effects. And then there is dnc that has the stun move. Not to mention they are also forgetting about the whole lvl competent of magic dmg for those with ma

[Demon6324236]

RDM would be higher than other Hybrids, I just meant that they would get more from skill than mages get from staves it seems. Then again, for all we know once that update is finished and all, we could simply have the Magic Accuracy from the staves removed completely, and them just let the skill do its job. After all, that update would put the Staves as being stronger if they simply went by the skill instead anyways. In the end, its hard to say exactly what will be best till after we know more about it, for all we know it would be 1 Magic Accuracy/Skill, or it could be simply a 1/1, no way to tell. In the end, this staff change is still an issue for RDM, SCH has more Magic Accuracy than we do right now if we are at the same level of gear, because all of our best gear is for SCH as well when it comes to Accuracy. We might be more potent, but potency only effects 2 important spells, Slow, and Para, both of which mean nothing on most high level NMs due to Stun, and TP spam, which means in the end, RDM has no extra use SCH doesn't, while SCH would give more buffs, and even a spare Embrava.

[dasva]

Yeah that's another issue... para doesn't really effect mobs whose main attack are tp moves. Don't think slow does either. Even if it did it's been a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time since we had fights that slow/para really made enough of a difference in a fight to justify a party slow just for that and worth a party slot to ensure t2 if you already had someone doing t1 since the difference between the 2 is puny. Not to mention saboteur which could have made them decent for use is gimped against NMs (and doesn't work with dia). They really need to revamp rdms merits... they are for the most part only marginal upgrades to completely useless

[FaeQueenCory]

The complaint isn't about the difference in stats so much as rdm isn't on the higher one.


Also as far as macc goes both of these completely destroy magians. As far as pure dmg it kinda depends on tier and gearing but antinian should win iirc on like anything below tier 5... but well those are horribly inefficient now. Why cast stone V for 3k for 156 mp when you can cast a stone I for 4 mp and do 1k dmg? Plus the resist rates will actually put magians lower anyways.

Also in reference to demon I SERIOUSLY doubt the staffs skill will be part of the skill to macc update. That was specifically for hybrid jobs that use melee weapons without macc on them. If they did that with these staffs it wouldn't solve anything. Mages would still have a good 130-200 more macc on the weapon the hybridish people. Not to mention that would also be kinda insane. I mean look at antinian. supposed to be ilvl 117 so basically should be making up for 17 lvls of macc if it got effectively 400 macc that would be equivalent to more like 50+ lvls of macc <.<
As far as dmg is concerned... I'm still fairly positive that the magian staves out perform Atinian... due to the limiting returns of MAB once you have lots of if...
The only part where it could be better is in the +Mdmg... because that's added before any of the multiplicities of MAB or Maffinity is done.
As to Macc.... after reviewing Maffinity, then yes. This stave will outperform magian Macc staves.

But in terms of nuking, the magian staves are still better due to the way Maffinity works. (though for your example of spaming T1s... you might be right on that where +195 to the base spell dmg might work out to be much more potent than the +35% added on at the end.)

[Fredjan]

I'd be in full support of RDM gaining the extra magic accuracy.

As far as magic damage goes:

Magian staves did have quite a run as top tier for everything, but that is no longer the case. Their use is very situational now, whereas before they were the best in slot for their specific element (with the exception of Laevateinn's aftermath usage) regardless of which tier of the element was cast.

The magic damage+ stat was put in to make lower tier spells more worthwhile to use. As a side bonus, the accuracy on these staves blows magian staves (the accuracy paths, that is; damage paths weren't exactly spectacular for magic accuracy gains) out of the water.

I say all of this as someone who supported magian staves through and through. Before the update that changed Soothsayer and Atinian staves, they were better than them on everything, and I'd be one of the first people who'd back that claim up. I know full well how magic affinity works on those staves, they get stronger as your MAB elsewhere does.

As to how useful they'd be now, magian staves only shine for damage on the least MP efficient spells in the book - spells like -ja nukes, Tier Vs, and Comet. Note that that's a generalization - there are factors that could make the results vary. If you're doing a long fight and focusing on the most damage per cast, you're going to run out of MP fast. If you're doing a long fight and focusing on the most efficient damage for the MP usage, you're going to actually contribute much more damage than you would spamming the most powerful spells.

As harder content comes out, you're going to run into resist problems if you use any magian staves or Chatoyant, as the biggest magic accuracy gains will come from the staves they introduce if the item level 100-119 gear so far is anything to go by. This will make the use of staves like Soothsayer and Atinian even better than they are now.

As dasva said, Stone 1 costs 4 MP, and with enough magic damage+, it's going to break 1k damage, something a gear set with a magian staff isn't going to accomplish very well. Results will obviously vary on harder content where the dINT is less, but the same concept applies. Stone 5 costs 156 MP. In order for Stone V to match ~1k damage for 4 MP, it'd have to be able to do ~39,000 damage, which as we all know is never happening.

To sum it up, magian staves (outside of Apamajas II for Stun) really aren't worth it anymore.

[dasva]

As far as dmg is concerned... I'm still fairly positive that the magian staves out perform Atinian... due to the limiting returns of MAB once you have lots of if...
The only part where it could be better is in the +Mdmg... because that's added before any of the multiplicities of MAB or Maffinity is done.
Really depends on tier and gearing and such. Ie the higher the base dmg the less potent magic dmg stat will be because of diminishing gains. But let's arguments sake let's say we are rocking a 50dint and say +200 MAB without staff which round numbers aside is fairly decent set right now. Using these amounts NQ atinian will win on any spell below fire V in pure dmg. Specfically with no mdb/mdt day/weather or resist to deal with on Aero V magian staff will deal 4090 and atinian will deal 4091. Admittedly not much a difference but lets look at say stone I. With magian dmg would be 445 with atinian 1030 <.<.

To look at it another way yes while a straight +35% dmg on the top is alot +195 magic dmg is also alot. Look at all the single target spells. Even at 50 dint which is a decent amount given how much MAB gearing is going on now and how high int mobs have you don't even break 1k base dmg till aero V and well 195 magic dmg and 12 more int is basically like 20% more dmg by itself before you even consider the effects of MAB.

To sum up if rdm got atinian there is pretty much no case outside of brewing where rdm would actually do more dmg with magian in nuke per nuke. And as far as dmg vs time or mp costs using atinian and lower tiers will be number one for every job. After all why spend 200 mp on a spell to deal 4k dmg and spend enough time casting it to be interrupted when you can cast 4 4mp spells for 1k each at what is now basically chainspell speed. And this is just the NQ. HQ is a bit stronger.

Basically magian dmg staffs are for jas now if you really want to spend alot of extra time making them for a spell that is rarely useful for like another 1% dmg. Or to cast a little faster. Macc staffs are pretty much out. Even for stunning its probably easier just to haste/fast cast gear up to compensate for the -recast. I suppose hardcore brds might use some -recast/cast time ones for buffs

[FaeQueenCory]

hmmm... That's really good to hear.
At least I think so.
While I am lax at the prospect of a time sink being... made "worthless"... they ARE only lv99 staves. And, theoretically, the lv117 stave that does the "same thing" should be superior.

The whole sudden influx of +Mdmg has made everything too math for my tastes. lol (chemists are notoriously lazy)
It really has skewed things into a new style for blm to play with. Much as the two of you have pointed out.
Which is a bit sad because I like the big flashy spells... but that's what solo is for ;p
Not to mention how one is able to get insane amounts of MAB on pieces..... There is just too many variables being messed with by stuff. lol

And one of the biggest reasons Atinian being better than the magic damage affinity staves is a blessing...
that's like 5 more inventory slots.
Though I suppose the cast speed is still nice... but with the new casting speed of the T1 spells.... that's just kinda a waste.