Relic Adjustments - The balancing act

[Byrth]

There has recently been a lot of "Empyrean vs. Relic" going on. No one seems to argue that Relics are better than Empyreans, but people often argue that they should be. I think that each of the three "special" weapons should have a place in the arsenal of a dedicated player, but that they should occupy different roles. I'm going to propose a few changes to keep relic weapons relevant, though I don't think there's any obligation to make them the "best" weapon for every job in every situation.

Always more of a fan of buffs than nerfs, I've chosen to view this less as "Empyreans are too good" and more as "Relics were always barely an upgrade, and many of their weaponskills and aftermaths are worthless." There have always been some things about relics and relic weaponskills that frankly don't make sense. I'll try to outline some changes that I think should be made to fix them, focusing on balance between weapons within a weapon type rather than across jobs.

General/weapon stat solutions:
* Remove the offhand limitation from Relics. (Relics currently lose all their stats besides damage and delay when offhanded)
* Add Acc to the 1H weapons and Attack to the 2H weapons similar to Anni/Yoichi. So 1H weapons would get 35 Attack and 25 Acc at 90, and 2H weapons would get 35 Acc and 25 Attack.
* Increase all relic aftermath durations by 50%. (100TP=30sec, 200TP=60sec, 300TP=90sec).
* Allow TP Bonus (like Moonshade earring) to affect aftermath duration.

Weapon specific changes
Spharai - This weapon is the best defensive option for Monk. In order to facilitate it in that role, adjustments mostly must be made to Final Heaven and its Aftermath.
* Make the Subtle Blow granted by Final Heaven aftermath stack with current Subtle Blow, but surpass the cap. (Subtle Blow caps at 50%).
* Change Final Heaven's fTP to 5.
* Make Final Heaven ignore some Defense like Howling Fist.

Mandau - This is still a very competitive dagger for Thief, especially with the damage boost to Mercy Stroke at 90. It still lacks a little though, because Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm are both SA/TA weaponskills only, and Rudra's has the advantage for Sneak Attack due to its DEX mod.
* Increase the Critical Hit rate enhancement from aftermath from 5% to 20%.
* Correspondingly, allow the weaponskill to critical hit even when not forced with SA/TA.

Excalibur - This weapon is currently very very situational. If you want to do better damage while keeping your shield, you use Almace. If you want to be more defensive, you use Burtgang. Excalibur is useful in situations where Almace does bad damage due to level correction and defense. Also, Knights of the Round is worthless as it currently stands. To increase its niche while not overpowering it, I recommend the following changes:
* Increase the Additional Effect: Damage proportional to HP proc rate to 20% and let it generate Enmity for the Paladin
* Give "Knights of Round" an Attack boost (like Steel Cyclone) and have it ignore some level correction so that it does regular physical damage.
* Make "Knights of Round" give a 20HP/5MP Regen/Refresh aftermath (200HP/50 MP per 100TP and 400HP/100MP max per minute).

Ragnarok - This Great Sword has probably improved the most of any relic weapon in the trials from 75 to 90. It still has some fundamental flaws though, mostly with the weaponskill Scourge.
* Scourge must be allowed to critical hit.
* Scourge's aftermath should be +20% Critical hit rate.
* Change Scourge's modifiers to 40% STR / 40% INT. I'm going to take this moment to admonish you for ever making them CHR and MND. Poor Dark Knights, have they not suffered enough?

Guttler - This is still the best Rampage spamming Axe for Beastmaster, so it still has the same niche that it has occupied since its inception. Some changes that wouldn't hurt though:
* Increase Onslaught's fTP to 3.5.
* Increase Onslaught's aftermath to Attack+25%.

Bravura - As Spharai is Monk's defensive option, Bravura is Warrior's defensive option. Still, some changes must be made to give incentive for using it this way and make it a desirable option. Increasing the duration as recommended above is definitely a start, but it needs a little more.
* Metatron Torment is listed as lowering the target's Defense. This effect has been shown to be notoriously inaccurate. Please increase its magical accuracy, and make sure it procs before damage is calculated.
* Give Metatron torment "Ignores Defense" or "Increased Attack" equal to or greater than Steel Cyclone.

Apocalypse - This relic has taken the hardest fall on the route to 90, both because Dark Knight became less desirable and because Haste became much more readily available. I used to love having Apocalypses in my party when meritting at 75 because I barely ever had to cure them. I have two proposals that should completely reverse this:
* Make the 10% Haste from Catastrophe's Aftermath count as a new kind of haste instead of gear Haste
* Change Catastrophe's mods from 40%INT/40% AGI to 40%INT/40%STR.
* Give Catastrophe an fTP of 3.0

Gungnir - Dragoon is a hard one. They really only have two roles, DD and soloer. Drakesbane and Ryunohige are so good that it's not possible to modify Gungnir to be the best DD polearm while maintaining game balance. Because of that, we have to turn to solo. Fortunately, the weaponskill (as it stands) is horrendous in every way and I feel no regret totally remaking it to my specifications:
* Change the mods from 60% AGI to 40% DEX / 40% STR, in keeping with other DRG WSs.
* Instead of Shock Spikes, make the aftermath +20% Parrying rate and make the weapon restore HP to your Wyvern as Catastrophe restores it to the player.
* Make the "Additional Effect: Weakens Defense" on the relic its own category of debuff, so it stacks with Angon.

Kikoku - Ninja can do almost everything. If anything, this is the best tanking/soloing katana.
* Make Blade: Metsu a 4-hit attack, as the animation already shows.
* Like with Final Heaven/Spharai, make Blade: Metsu's aftermath surpass the Subtle Blow cap.
* Increase the proc rate and potency of "Additional Effect: Paralyze."

Amanomurakumo - There is no way around it for SAM. Mythic is the best defensive GKT and Empyrean is the best offensive GKT. I don't really know how to fix this, because I can't think of other roles for SAM to play to. My suggestions would be focus on situations that Hagun used to beat Amano in before, where Attack boost vs. really high Defense trumps superior mods/fTP:
* Make the STP from the Aftermath +15 instead of +7.
* Give Kaiten some measure of "Increased Attack" like Tachi: Gekko and Tachi: Kasha.

Mjollnir - Now we're getting in to mage weapons, which present something of a dilemma. Mages can play a lot of different roles, some of which are independent of their weapon. Mjollnir has long been seen as WHM's prime DD mainhand, which is a role they can play in tolerant parties. In order to be a better DD main hand, Mjollnir would have to make that role more desirable or viable. Also, Randgrith will never out-do Hexa Strike but we can give it a niche anyway. Here are some adjustments to help with that:
* Make the Recover MP from Mjollnir proc for a static fraction of the WHM's club skill. Say (MP recovered = Skill/10)
* Make the Recover MP en-effect take priority over all other en-effects, like Auspice and Haste Samba.
* Increase Randgrith's fTP to 4.0.
* Make Randgrith's Shield Break effect very accurate.

Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +35% magic damage, +65 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

Annihilator - This weapon's niche is disappearing, unfortunately. It used to be that the proper way to use this weapon was to alternate Coronach and Slug Shot. For a variety of reasons, this is not as ideal or necessary any more. Also, it has always struck me as somewhat odd that Gun (short range, lower RAcc) gets the Enmity- aftermath while Bow (long range, higher RAcc) gets an RAcc aftermath.
* Change Coronach's aftermath from -20 Enmity to -40 Enmity.
* Beyond this, I am unsure what to advise. I fear this weapon's niche has disappeared, much like the game's use for Ranger.

Yoichinoyumi - This weapon has always been one of the most powerful Relics. Currently, I would say its "niche" is the ability to do low-hate damage with Namas Arrows that rival Sidewinder damage. My only suggestion would be:
* Remove the range-Ranged Attack relationship from this weaponskill so Rangers and Samurais can get better use out of it.

Gjallarhorn - Doesn't really need an update.

Aegis - This is another easy fix. Comparing this shield to the power of the Empyrean shield, the proposed fix is not outrageous either.
* Make Aegis' Magic Damage Taken -% additive, yet separate from the gear/spell -Magic Damage Taken cap of 50%. This means that level 90 Aegis users would take -90% Magic damage.



Two requests to any responders:
1) If you're going to debate a change I'm proposing, please back up what you're saying with math when possible. For instance, don't say "You can't change that weaponskill, it would be incredibly overpowered" without providing an average damage post-change compared to its nearest competitor.
2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.

[lorzy]

i don't know much about relics or all the math around DD, like ftp and stuff, so i can't do anything like fine-tune your values. but i like your ideas, like pretty much everything under "general," and completely agree with the general idea. for instance, i'm all for having mjollnir be an amazing DD club, while yagrush still has its own completely different niche.

[MarkovChain]

Weapon specific changes
Spharai - This weapon is the best defensive option for Monk. In order to facilitate it in that role, adjustments mostly must be made to Final Heaven and its Aftermath.
* Make the Subtle Blow granted by Final Heaven aftermath stack with current Subtle Blow, but surpass the cap. (Subtle Blow caps at 50%).
* Change Final Heaven's fTP to 5.
* Make Final Heaven ignore some Defense like Howling Fist.

Damage taken -, evasion +, occasionally absorbs TPs. I like the idea of a defensive weapon, the counter on the weapon is not really usefull. Could also have an "augment counterstance effect" that would for instance remove part of the defense reduction. Could also double counter damage or something. This would make this weapon a lot more useful than verethragna. Noone cares if you take 5' to kill an NM instead of 5'15.

For all mythic, a simple ajustement is to exchange 300 TP aftermath with 100 tp aftermath.

[Michaeluk]

I really like your suggestions with regards to the general weapon solution though i feel relics should have the hidden odd/ott increased to maybe around 15%. I don't feel this is asking to much considering empyreans get from 30-50% I'm aware they have to use the weaponskill to do this but the weaponskill is generally the best weaponskill for the job in question, resulting in high dmg from the weaponskill alone then the huge increase in dot under the aftermath effect.

With regards to the mandau aftermath i can't argue with you at all it really is pretty terrible at the moment so much infact i hardly notice a diffrence when im under the aftermath effect.

[Insaniac]

I like all your suggestions I would add a few more things though:

I think by lvl 99 all relics should have a 10-15% proc rate of their hidden effect damage. 10% for 3x and 15% for 2x. This would take some of the sting out of empyrean aftermaths but not take that wind out of their sails.

Excal - Make the add effect generate enimty. 20% add effect proc seems a bit high. Potentially 1000+ damage every 5 swings in abyssea. Should cap it's damage if it's going to be going off that much.

Mjollinr - Add some cure potency perhaps. Nothing crazy but at least 10%

Mandau - Personal peeve.. I hate add effect: poison. Give me para, blind, or slow.

Gungnir - The shock spikes are actually decent for soloing any normal mob. Your parry+ aftermath would be fine but I think we could get away with increasing the damage, stun proc rate (already something like 50% on normal mobs), and stun duration on the shock spikes. I love the Wyvern HP restore idea though.

[Rambus]

Aegis:
can be fixed by replacing MT to MDB
or allowing block proc on magic tp moves and spells.

G-horn:

currently It holds no vaule in abyssea, and little outside from the buffs people got from gear and weapons over the years. Only thing I can suggest is that the + bonus on songs need to be higher.

emp instrument:
my understanding that it allows 3 songs vs 2 without bonus. if this is the case then this is almost useless. A normal brd with +1 ( ballad) +2/+3 other buffs would in mose cases out perfrom the emp. Plus it being string I think there is more singing/wind gear then string. I can be wrong on that but point is it needs some extra uuumpft.

brd dagger mythic:
I do not see the point in recasting songs less, could add some bonus to songs like +1 or +2 to all songs.

for all relics: maybe allow hidden effect to happen more.


I like all your suggestions I would add a few more things though:

I think by lvl 99 all relics should have a 10-15% proc rate of their hidden effect damage. 10% for 3x and 15% for 2x. This would take some of the sting out of empyrean aftermaths but not take that wind out of their sails.

Excal - Make the add effect generate enimty. 20% add effect proc seems a bit high. Potentially 1000+ damage every 5 swings in abyssea. Should cap it's damage if it's going to be going off that much.

Mjollinr - Add some cure potency perhaps. Nothing crazy but at least 10%

Mandau - Personal peeve.. I hate add effect: poison. Give me para, blind, or slow.

Gungnir - The shock spikes are actually decent for soloing any normal mob. Your parry+ aftermath would be fine but I think we could get away with increasing the damage, stun proc rate (already something like 50% on normal mobs), and stun duration on the shock spikes. I love the Wyvern HP restore idea though.

my issue on what your bringing on the plate with club is this
I think it should NOT underperfrom magian trials so atm it should have at lest 22%

[Alkimi]

Mjollnir is a DD club pure and simple, wipes the floor with empyrean already so no need to adjust it. Putting cure potency on it is kinda pointless unless it's 25% or something and even then most WHMs are already capped with Surya's +2.

Yagrush had the right idea about enhancing WHM in its primary role and still remains one of the better mythics, even if upgrading it to 90 is semi-pointless since Divine Benison at 90 caps -na spell casting time anyway.

[MarkovChain]

Aegis:
can be fixed by replacing MT to MDB
or allowing block proc on magic tp moves and spells.

Nope that would be pretty weak. If you want to really make aegis useful again make it an automatic 25% resist rate. One idea is to increase your magic evasion to the point that you reach 25% resist rate on IT mobs. Considering you would need ~330 to cap on them and you start resisting at 200, make it magic evasion +225. Maybe it's too easy to cap then with the appropriate barspell from a WHM, so let's say magic evasion +100 would be great without being game breaking. With a good WHM you'll need ~ 80 in gear only to cap and even if you don't bother you'll have a basic 50% resist rate with WHM and 25% /rdm paired with capped mdt.

[Alkimi]

Changing 'Magic Damage Taken' to simply 'Damage Taken' would be a start. And currently the enhanced shield bash from level 90 version seems pointless compared to the lvl75 version.

But it's all irrelevant unless they make PLD useful again.

[Fredjan]

Honestly, one thing I wouldn't mind seeing is the ability to have the ToAU and later jobs be given the ability use relics. As is, Blue Mages, Corsairs, Puppetmasters, Dancers, and Scholars only have mythics/empyreans. I suppose they have their reasons as to why they aren't on relics, but I digress.


Ragnarok - This Great Sword has probably improved the most of any relic weapon in the trials from 75 to 90. It still has some fundamental flaws though, mostly with the weaponskill Scourge.
* Scourge must be allowed to critical hit.
* Scourge's aftermath should be +20% Critical hit rate.
* Change Scourge's modifiers to 40% STR / 40% INT. I'm going to take this moment to admonish you for ever making them CHR and MND. Poor Dark Knights, have they not suffered enough?

I concur. I don't get why a WS can improve a critical hit rate, yet it doesn't crit on its own, not to mention the WS modifiers.


Apocalypse - This relic has taken the hardest fall on the route to 90, both because Dark Knight became less desirable and because Haste became much more readily available. I used to love having Apocalypses in my party when meritting at 75 because I barely ever had to cure them. I have two proposals that should completely reverse this:
* Make the 10% Haste from Catastrophe's Aftermath count as Job Ability haste instead of gear Haste (Sorry, Desperate Blows)
* Change Catastrophe's mods from 40%INT/40% AGI to 40%INT/40%STR.

Yet again, I concur. 40% AGI? A DRK doesn't gear for AGI, much like they don't gear for CHR (See Ragnarok). As you said, yeah, DRK can barely benefit from Catastrophe's aftermath as things are now. I'm more likely to bring INT gear than I am to ever bring MND let alone AGI or CHR. Sure, MND is a Guillotine modifier, but I just take care of that by trying to avoid MND-.


Gungnir - Dragoon is a hard one. They really only have two roles, DD and soloer. Drakesbane and Ryunohige are so good that it's not possible to modify Gungnir to be the best DD polearm while maintaining game balance. Because of that, we have to turn to solo. Fortunately, the weaponskill (as it stands) is horrendous in every way and I feel no regret totally remaking it to my specifications:
* Change the mods from 60% AGI to 40% DEX / 40% STR, in keeping with other DRG WSs.
* Instead of Shock Spikes, make the aftermath +20% Parrying rate and make the weapon restore HP to your Wyvern as Catastrophe restores it to the player.
* Make the "Additional Effect: Weakens Defense" on the relic its own category of debuff, so it stacks with Angon.

Seriously, AGI mod and shock spikes made me wonder, and I'm not even a Dragoon.


Mjollnir - Now we're getting in to mage weapons, which present something of a dilemma. Mages can play a lot of different roles, some of which are independent of their weapon. Mjollnir has long been seen as WHM's prime DD mainhand, which is a role they can play in tolerant parties. In order to be a better DD main hand, Mjollnir would have to make that role more desirable or viable. Also, Randgrith will never out-do Hexa Strike but we can give it a niche anyway. Here are some adjustments to help with that:
* Make the Recover MP from Mjollnir proc for a static fraction of the WHM's club skill. Say (MP recovered = Skill/10)
* Make the Recover MP en-effect take priority over all other en-effects, like Auspice and Haste Samba.
* Increase Randgrith's fTP to 4.0.
* Make Randgrith's Shield Break effect very accurate.

I wouldn't mind seeing this get adjusted. :p As is, Mjollnir is the best weapon to melee with regardless on WHM. It is better than Empyrean because the aftermath from using Dagan isn't worth taking advantage of due to Dagan doing no damage, and given Hexa Strike's potential it isn't worth giving up damage for.

I also don't think Mjollnir should be given cure potency. It isn't designed with mage like benefits in mind. Yagrush would be more likely to get it, and as things are, it really isn't necessary.


Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +60% magic damage, +60 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

Mage stats are something we'd more likely see improvement on with the mage mythics, but I agree regardless. CHR as a mod makes me laugh... no BLM or SMN is going to gear for Charisma just like DRK wouldn't for Scourge.


Gjallarhorn - Doesn't really need an update.

Agreed. Sure, the biggest benefit of this relic isn't as beneficial in Abyssea - MP is nearly infinite and I could cure on my Bard with minimal problems, but people need to remember that endgame content won't stay in Abyssea. Anytime I gear BRD in Abyssea, it's for yellow !! triggers more than the songs. Sure, they still help, just not as much.

And when it comes to Daurdabla, answering a different poster - you only need it on when you're casting the third song. You can still use different instruments to cast the other two songs. You just won't get the 3rd song if Daurdabla isn't equipped.

[Kirschy]

Apocalypse - This relic has taken the hardest fall on the route to 90, both because Dark Knight became less desirable and because Haste became much more readily available. I used to love having Apocalypses in my party when meritting at 75 because I barely ever had to cure them. I have two proposals that should completely reverse this:
* Make the 10% Haste from Catastrophe's Aftermath count as Job Ability haste instead of gear Haste (Sorry, Desperate Blows)
* Change Catastrophe's mods from 40%INT/40% AGI to 40%INT/40%STR.

In general I agree with your idea of having a niche for each weapon, and agree with most of your general changes to relics. Going to add my thoughts on Apoc, since I feel I have a good understanding of DRK and how it works with Apocalypse.

I think aside from the extra haste available in equipment, the attack delay cap is also kind of burden on the haste aftermath of Catastrophe. I feel the best solution would be to make the Haste aftermath a separate category from Eq, Magic, and JA. (It would still conform to the attack delay cap though, obviously.) This allows you to use the haste aftermath to fill in the gaps based on your buffs and setup. In capped conditions without Last Resort, it would only fill in the missing 1.25% haste of JA haste needed to cap attack delay. If you don't have SV Marches or your BRD is not Gjallar and/or has +2 Hands, it can fill in magic haste. And lastly of course, if you have near capped haste in Magic/JA, you can replace equipment haste for alternate stats. Making the aftermath a separate category allows the haste effect to take on different roles without being subjected to any of the caps of each particular category.

I feel in addition to the 40%AGI->40%STR change, the base fTP on catastrophe should be raised to 3.0. I feel Catastrophe is generally a weaker WS when compared to other similar endgame WS.

[Kirschy]

Agreed. Sure, the biggest benefit of this relic isn't as beneficial in Abyssea - MP is nearly infinite and I could cure on my Bard with minimal problems, but people need to remember that endgame content won't stay in Abyssea. Anytime I gear BRD in Abyssea, it's for yellow !! triggers more than the songs. Sure, they still help, just not as much.

And when it comes to Daurdabla, answering a different poster - you only need it on when you're casting the third song. You can still use different instruments to cast the other two songs. You just won't get the 3rd song if Daurdabla isn't equipped.

I feel the biggest increase with Lv90 Gjallar atm is the extra +1 to March. The exclusiveness to Lv90 Gjallar probably won't last long, but as it stands now, it's an extra ~3% Haste if you're not using SV. (Although if you're using SV your best combo is probably March+Minuet and Lv90 Gjallar offers 1% extra haste during that SV combo.)

I'm sure many will argue that between restore chests, and the attack delay cap being relatively easy to hit on jobs like MNK, NIN, and DNC, that the extra +1 march isn't as useful as a Daurdabla. And their arguments would be completely valid. I still feel like I'm getting an exclusive relic boost when using marches on my BRD!

[Insaniac]

Putting some cure potency on Mjollnir would make it a little less of a sacrifice to full time it. Like mentioned it's a DD club. Byrths post was about keeping the weapons in their niche. I was just sticking with that theme. Too much potency and it's out of it's niche.

[Byrth]

Yeah, giving Mjollnir cure potency would make it a full-time weapon. I'm okay with Surya's being the best Curing staff. If the WHM is doing heavy healing, it's going to be silly for them to be on the front line in AoE range anyway because they'll be casting much of the time. As mentioned, the club is already the best DD WHM club, the niche assigned to it. Some WHMs pride themselves on their WHMinja-ing, so it isn't a particularly undesirable weapon. I was just trying to make it a little easier to keep MP up and give Randgrith a situational role.

I'm down with the proposed changes to Apocalypse. I mostly suggested JA Haste because it seemed the least likely to be constantly capped (except for DB or situations where you have Haste Samba/Hasso). Also, giving it another .25 fTP isn't going to hurt.

Also, I think G-horn is going to be a much better instrument outside Abyssea than people are saying right now. Assuming the low-man shift continues, you can expect to not regularly have every Haste buffer or not be able to use Hasso to complete your Haste. Couple that with Bard having Cure 4 now (and still +4 MP/tick from G-horn over the nearest competitor - 13MP/tick with AF3+2 legs), and I think you're looking at a instrument that potentially lets Bard main heal. They have Haste, Cure 4, Curaga 2, all the status -nas, and 13MP/tick, anything RDM could main heal at 75 G-horn Bard should be able to main heal now. The downside is that they need a somewhat durable party, because Bard spends so much of its time spell locked singing.

Mandau/Apoc/Kikoku/etc all have the status effect because it is traditionally associated with their weapon's WSs. Unfortunately, Dagger is Poison. I would have given it Slow (as it isn't taken by another weapon type) but Ukko's Fury slows now.

As far as comments about Excalibur, I'm not sure that one proc every 5 swings for 1000 damage in Abyssea would be overpowered if you compare it to any real DD. Outside Abyssea you're looking at closer to one proc for 400-500 every 5 swings, which is again totally dwarfed by a real DD unless you're fighting a very high level monster (where Excal has always shined). But yeah, making the add effect give enmity is something that has been a long time coming.

I like the idea of enhancing counterstance on Spharai. If we make it remove the Defense penalty and give +10 (or however much it is at each stage) Counter during Counterstance, then there would be no reason to not full-time Counterstance and the original weapon effect doesn't go away. SE might resist it though, as JA enhancements are kind of the realm of Mythics.

So far I've tried to keep weapons similar enough that SE would just have to change numbers instead of actually reprogramming anything (with the exception of the DRG Wyvern-healing thing and the recent Spharai suggestion). I figure if we make the changes easier to make they're more likely to get done.



Our usage of english terms we've made up for different numbers in the damage equations may hinder any translator's ability to get this message across to SE. Does anyone know the JP terms for the same things so we could make a lexicon for the translators?

PS. Sorry if I missed something someone said. I'll try to skim through and update the OP with these suggestions as the day goes on.

[Insaniac]

I would need to do some figuring to see how damage and hate generation on an excal with a a 20% proc rate would stack up against Almace. I wouldn't compare Excal to any other DD because it's apples and oranges. Just running the numbers in my head they might actually be comparable to an Almace in which case I don't see a problem. The only advantage excal would have I think is in the atmas required to achieve that type of damage. With a refresh aftermath you could easily do RR and 2 HP atmas and have quite a bit more survivability than an Almace PLD with similar damage output.

[Humie]

Possable Aegis enhancments

IDEA 1
THE MAGIC STATUS ROUTE
I have been thinking about possable aegis enhancments, SE said they wanted to keep Aegis focused on reducing magic damage not physical and I have thought of a good system that would do that yet keep aegis and ochain holders happy.

At the moment Aegis offers great protection from magical damage but what about magic status?

If they was to add a hidden effect of Enhancing resistance to status alments to the same % as the -% magic damage taken.

i.e. lvl 90 Aegis would be -40% magic damage taken and 40% resistance to status alments.

This would be a huge boost to aegis, allowing Aegis PLDs to have a high resist rates including Death, Doom, Silence, HP down, Amnesia and zombie status ect.

IDEA 2
THE MYTHS AND LEGENDS ROUTE

Acording to the myths and legends of Aegis the Head of Medusa was embosed upon the shield striking fear into all those who looked upon it.

In keeping with the myths and legends of Aegis give it "Enhances all killer traits" with a high proc rate

This would give all aegis users a very high chance of intinidating the monster therfore reducing the damage they would take with out raising the block rate or damage taken

[Frost]

Simple fixes:

1) All the Weaponskills should attain the Accuracy and Attack boosts ANY AND ALL 1-hit Weaponskills already possess.

2) Weapons should not have Attack or Accuracy on them, they should have +Skill on them.

3) Relevant Stat modifiers to weaponskills (Already covered, but I would go 80 if single and 40/40 if dual).



It's also odd that some weapons get an additional effect on the weaponskill as well as an aftermath. Like Drk get Drain And Haste? Staff gets Attack Down And Refresh? The ranged weaponskills get reduced Emnity and Emnity down? G.Axe is Defense Down and "Lowers Damage Taken From Enemies"? Why don't all the relics get that dual bonus?

[Byrth]

I'm fairly sure there's no generic attack bonus associated with the first hit of weaponskills. There are just several one-hit WSs with Attack Bonuses.

[Rambus]

Nope that would be pretty weak. If you want to really make aegis useful again make it an automatic 25% resist rate. One idea is to increase your magic evasion to the point that you reach 25% resist rate on IT mobs. Considering you would need ~330 to cap on them and you start resisting at 200, make it magic evasion +225. Maybe it's too easy to cap then with the appropriate barspell from a WHM, so let's say magic evasion +100 would be great without being game breaking. With a good WHM you'll need ~ 80 in gear only to cap and even if you don't bother you'll have a basic 50% resist rate with WHM and 25% /rdm paired with capped mdt.

Why would it make it weaker? MDT is easy to cap without a shield that gives a huge amount of it.
hint it is why emp shield walks all over relic.

and what is wrong with the idea allowing a block trigger rate only for aegis? that does hover the same lines of "automatic 25% resist rate"

[Werewolf]

I would like to see something done as well, it's no secret Emp. Weapons mop the floor with Relic/Mythic Weapons and require far much less effort and time to obtain which is a bit sad but I'm hoping some future adjustments will help them.

I would also like to see the offhand restriction at least removed, considering that just about every other weapon in the game gets offhand stats I hardly think an additional +10 atk or acc (Magian STR Trial has 24-26 attack, and DEX Trial has 19-21 accuracy) over what someone can get from Magian Trial Weapon and use it offhand is far from game breaking to warrant this restriction; I can see not having weaponskill and perhaps hidden damage modifier and keeping those main hand but the rest should not be restricted in my opinion.

I know if all of a sudden everyones offhand lost stats you'd have a ton of angry players, not to mention Thieves would probably be the most upset.

Also I agree with the aftermath on some needing adjustments, for me Blade: Metsu used to nice for soloing cause I could use it to cap Subtle Blow but now since it is really easy to cap without that now both the weaponskill and aftermath are really useless and that's kind of depressing :(

I'm really hoping to see some fixes in the updates, but can only ask and hope someone will listen ;_;

[Denabond]

Spharai - This weapon is the best defensive option for Monk. In order to facilitate it in that role, adjustments mostly must be made to Final Heaven and its Aftermath.
* Make the Subtle Blow granted by Final Heaven aftermath stack with current Subtle Blow, but surpass the cap. (Subtle Blow caps at 50%).
* Change Final Heaven's fTP to 5.
* Make Final Heaven ignore some Defense like Howling Fist.
Saying these are the best defensive mnk weapon is highly debateable since there is those -10% PDT elemental knucks from TotM. Also the +counter on it doesn't do enough to really make it that much better as a defensive weapon. Id rather have Spharai focus on better DoT. Make it so the 2nd hit per attack round have a chance to do that 3X damage effect (it only has the chance to proc on the first hit each attack round). Also, increase the proc rate of the 2-3X damage of all relic weapons up to 10% rather then 5%. If we are to make Spharai into a more counter heavy weapon, have it have the chance to "fail" your counters like Perfect Counter (as in if you fail the acc cheak on your counter, it will still negate the attack rather then not contering at all). Or as MarkovChain mentioned, have it reduce the defense reduction of Counterstance and/or increase the counter damage. Also, I read somewhere that cap counter rate is 80%, so with Counterstance (with Melee Gaiters)+Merits+base counter rate=70%. So having Spharai break the counter cap would also work (although correct me if i'm wrong about there being a counter cap).

[Tamarsamar]

Excalibur - This weapon is currently very very situational. If you want to do better damage while keeping your shield, you use Almace. If you want to be more defensive, you use Burtgang. Excalibur is useful in situations where Almace does bad damage due to level correction and defense. Also, Knights of the Round is worthless as it currently stands. To increase its niche while not overpowering it, I recommend the following changes:
* Increase the Additional Effect: Damage proportional to HP proc rate to 20% and let it generate Enmity for the Paladin
* Give "Knights of Round" an Attack boost (like Steel Cyclone) and have it ignore some level correction so that it does regular physical damage.
* Make "Knights of Round" give a 20HP/5MP Regen/Refresh aftermath (200HP/50 MP per 100TP and 400HP/100MP max per minute).

I'm a Red Mage pursuing Excalibur, and what is this? :(

While I can't say that I would agree *exactly* with your proposed changes, I have to say that I appreciate the effort of putting some concrete ideas on the table. So, kudos to you, sir.

[Byrth]

Making it an enmity tool wouldn't be horrible for Red Mage either. Red mage tanking has been dead since the Dispel and Sleep enmity nerfs. I'm not sure this would fix it, but it may help.

Thanks!

[KoKoMonsta]

Instead of relic overhaul.. how about this maybe? A

Fake emp weapons: (WoE obtained)
after reaching +2 and getting the ws.. how about SE implementing a quest like "Unlocking a myth" to where in the end, the fake emp weapon is traded in to unlock the WS of that category to be used w/ all pertaining weapons. Imagine a Burtang /w use of Chant.. or Amano with use of fudo.. People may disagree seeing how much work will be needed farming nms and woe etc... but its not really too different from getting a runic key from Nyzul Isle just to have an easier chance to unlock... Waiting daily for an assault tag sucked :x. In regards to the real emp weapons.. SE can just buff them up and keep them separate from other mythics and relics.

The only cons to the quest would be the amount of congestion in WoE as well as VNM hunting. SE may have to adjust pop rates of VNM(chesma etc) which they should of done a while back. Other than that, would be a great way to help older relics.

[Fetus]

OP and other posters have some great ideas. I agree with most, if not all, of them.

All Relic WS need some serious adjustments to their fTP and status modifiers.
Multi-hit animations need to be Multi-hit WS. (Blade: Metsu should be 4 hits, Randgrith should be 2 hits, etc.)
Relic weapons could just add +skill instead of +accuracy or +attack.
All Relic weapons should have the "hidden" 3x damage effect instead of some doing 1.5 and others doing 2.5 or whatnot.

I think in order to streamline Relic weapons and Relic WS, the fTP should be the same on all Relic WS and the status modifiers should be a single 80% or a dual 40%/40% effect. Aftermath effects should have extended durations and revised... most of them are horribly outdated and completely useless. The "hidden" enhanced damage proc rate should be increased a bit.

Personal gripe about Mjollnir:

If Mjollnir crushes and grinds crap into dust... why does it give the user an accuracy bonus and cut the evasion of the target? It's redudant... it's like giving the WHM a double accuracy bonus, which is overkill. The rest of the party or alliance might benefit slightly from the target suffering from reduced evasion, but it's out of character for the hammer. Randgrith should have some sort of defense ignoring or defense reducing effect. The "Recover MP" effect is also completely worthless. It needs to proc more often, for a greater amount and in tandem with other effects... not being overwritten or overwriting other effects.

[Alukat]

mandau needs longer aftermath and higher triple dmg proc rate.
crit dmg+x% might be good also or str+ on the weapon.
rudra's is dex based and there is plenty of dex+agi gear and some str+dex gear and almost no agi+str gear, what makes mercy stroke pretty weak during trick attack

[Atomic_Skull]

I think in order to streamline Relic weapons and Relic WS, the fTP should be the same on all Relic WS

1H Relics will be screwed by that because they typically have a higher fTP to make up for their lower DMG.

[Forevergogo]

"Gjallarhorn - Doesn't really need an update."

WHAT?!
We've entered the stage of +3 and +4 instruments.
I'd like a relic to surpass that a bit. Oh sure, it saves inventory space...
But I'd rather have more bang than more bag space.

When it is fully upgraded through magian is it then worth using for more than lullaby.
I'd rather use elegy+3 until the final magian upgrade (at the moment).

Seriously, when it finishes upgrading in dynamis- I'd like to see it do +3 to all songs.
Upgrades could keep adding more +singing and +wind and +Chr, and perhaps the final upgrade up to +4 to all songs.
Or instead of +4, -% song casting time.

But really, by the time we're lvl99, I'm forseeing instruments that cover 2 songs at +3 each.
All my old instruments are gonna go bye-bye in favor of these, and I still got my pwnsome requiem flute for +4 requiem!

Considering the time and work put into getting a dynamis item finished... then through all the magian upgrades,
It HAS to be more than +3. Cause in the end, all you're working so hard for is some +skill. We have AF3 and merits for that.

[Meldity]

Gungnir - Dragoon is a hard one. They really only have two roles, DD and soloer. Drakesbane and Ryunohige are so good that it's not possible to modify Gungnir to be the best DD polearm while maintaining game balance. Because of that, we have to turn to solo. Fortunately, the weaponskill (as it stands) is horrendous in every way and I feel no regret totally remaking it to my specifications:
* Change the mods from 60% AGI to 40% DEX / 40% STR, in keeping with other DRG WSs.
* Instead of Shock Spikes, make the aftermath +20% Parrying rate and make the weapon restore HP to your Wyvern as Catastrophe restores it to the player.
* Make the "Additional Effect: Weakens Defense" on the relic its own category of debuff, so it stacks with Angon.

I appreciate the angon/weakens defense stack up suggestion but i'm pretty sure that's impossible for SE to do. Only way that would work is if it was an actual hidden effect for Geirskogul. And your suggestion to make it 40STR/40DEX% without an fSTR boost wouldn't improve it enough to keep on par with any other empyrean whatsoever and the notion itself is almost offensive. It's like your telling me to go build Ryunohige because Gugnir is hopeless to fix(Even though I got it before Ryunohige was even released, thanks for making my weapon incomparable to ryunohige SE). I think your missing the point that the only reason why empy's are so powerful to begin with is just because of the fact they have 'occassionally deals double damage' as an aftermath AND 'deals double damage' when they actually weaponskill.

The best part about this is the fact your suggesting 20% parry(wtf?) and were still considered a solo job when all of our job abilities are supposed to shed hate. Not only that but we have like NO DEFENSE except blood tanking from our wyvern, except the only problem is that when the wyvern dies so do we. Also 20 minutes just to summon the wyvern. Why does our wyvern have a 20 minute weakness time while our own bodies have 5 minutes is beyond me(Not like they don't get one-two shotted anyway from an AoE). Now tell me why I shouldn't just solo nearly every NM in the game on NIN instead of DRG? Oh wait, we can't.



Also if anyones wondering; no shock spikes does not stun at all, and even if it does it is more like less than 1% chance. I've done my trials in Bostinaeux leeches fighting up to 7-10 at a time and it was probably once every 10 minutes that I would actually see a leech get stunned from shock spikes.

[Byrth]

I appreciate the angon/weakens defense stack up suggestion but i'm pretty sure that's impossible for SE to do. Only way that would work is if it was an actual hidden effect for Geirskogul.

It's certainly not, and wouldn't be particularly hard to do. I'm sure they're busy making new HNMs that will be outdated in two patches though.


And your suggestion to make it 40STR/40DEX% without an fSTR boost wouldn't improve it enough to keep on par with any other empyrean whatsoever and the notion itself is almost offensive.


The best part about this is the fact your suggesting 20% parry(wtf?) and that we're still considered a solo job when all of our job abilities are supposed to shed hate. Not only that but we have like NO DEFENSE except blood tanking from our wyvern, except the only problem is that when the wyvern dies so do we. Also 20 minutes just to summon the wyvern. Why does our wyvern have a 20 minute weakness time while our own bodies have 5 minutes is beyond me(Not like they don't get one-two shotted anyway from an AoE). Now tell me why I shouldn't just solo nearly every NM in the game on NIN instead of DRG? Oh wait, we can't.

The point, which you may not have read, is to give your Wyvern HP and the improve your durability. 40% STR/DEX gives you better mods than Catastrophe with similar fTP. 20% Parrying gives you 20% physical negation that can proc on WSs. Healing your Wyvern stops them from dying. Your weapon would make you and your wyvern substantially more durable for solo purposes.


It's like you're telling me to go build Ryunohige because Gugnir is hopeless to fix(Even though I got it before Ryunohige was even released, thanks for making my weapon incomparable to ryunohige SE). I think you're missing the point. The only reason that Empyreans are so powerful is their 'occassionally deals double damage' aftermath AND 'deals double damage' when they actually weaponskill.

I'm actually not missing the point, and you don't actually know how Empyreans WSs work or what fSTR is. The "doubles damage" description just indicates that they have high fTP, the same way that Sidewinder's "deals quadruple damage" has for all these years. You got Gungnir when it looked like it was the best Dragoon polearm. That was at least four years ago.

If you want a DD polearm, you certainly should make Ryunohige. +15% Drakesbane damage and 50% OAT that stacks with WSs and Jumps make it the best polearm by a mile. Sorry that you bet on the wrong horse, but even before Ryunohige came out people weren't exactly singing the praises of Gungnir. Ryunohige is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, weapon in the game across all jobs including all Empyreans. We can't exactly go making Gungnir better than it.


Also if anyones wondering; no shock spikes does not stun at all, and even if it does it is more like less than 1% chance. I've done my trials in Bostinaeux leeches fighting up to 7-10 at a time and it was probably once every 10 minutes that I would actually see a leech get stunned from shock spikes.

This is pretty much what I had heard before, which is why I suggested changing the aftermath. Parrying doesn't really fit with dragoon, but it offers something that lets you conserve TP and not spend as much time casting Dia/Foot Kick or whatever you prefer. Alternatively, they could just make the shock spikes have higher magic accuracy and longer duration to let you get Dia/HP off between attack rounds easier.

[Byrth]

Aegis - This is another easy fix. Comparing this shield to the power of the Empyrean shield, the proposed fix is not outrageous either.
* Make Aegis' Magic Damage Taken -% additive, yet separate from the gear/spell -Magic Damage Taken cap of 50%. This means that level 90 Aegis users would take -90% Magic damage.

We shall seeeeeeee~!

[Denabond]

The cap on magic damage sustainable with the shield "Aegis" equipped has been increased.
Well Aegis got something nice this update.

[DebbieGibson]

bump to this

[axlzero]

wow you did a lot of thinking into this i commend you but me i like to keep things simple so here is my fix

all one handed relics get trait attacks 3 to 5 times all two handed relics attack 2 to 3 times.

you forget aegis i would put 10 emnity on it, +100 hp, +100 mp, change magic dmg taken to -dmg taken and give it a counterbash ability on a sucessful block

as for gaga horn well im not a bard so someone else come up with something for it

[Nynja]

Also 20 minutes just to summon the wyvern. Why does our wyvern have a 20 minute weakness time while our own bodies have 5 minutes is beyond me(Not like they don't get one-two shotted anyway from an AoE).
IF you call your wyvern, then die in 20 minutes...your wyvern is at 0 recast, therefor no "weakness". Cmon man, youre smarter than this...

[AldielQuetz]

100% Supporter of making Excalibur's additional damage increase enmity AND to add accuracy to the 1 handers and attack to the 2 handers AND 110% behind you when you said to make the Regen aftermath increase and add a refresh effect as well!

This is the kind of creative genius that SE needs! The original poster of this thread should be on SE's staff,

HANDS DOWN BEST THREAD EVAR.

Thank YOU Sir m(_ _)m

[Xellith]

SE devs talk about balance yet they have no idea what they are doing with regards to relic/mythic/empy weapons.

Difficulty:Reward ratio is skewed to badly with regards to these weapons its impossible to take the dev team seriously when they talk about said "balance".

Relics and Mythic should be much much more powerful.

Relics should be much more powerful with a higher DMG and better aftermath. Mythic should be on par with relics.

Empy should be SLIGHTLY easier to obtain with regard to collecting all those items at the end trials. Reduce the amount needed from 50 to 25. From 75 to 50. Bump up the NM difficulty so they cant just be easily low manned (hi to you masamune) and increase the number of NMs which must be hunted for these trials to start with.

But in the big picture im sure others can come up with better ideas than these. I just want it to be known that in my personal opinion relics should be very very powerful with the difficulty in obtaining them. Hell release a ring that corrosponds to each particular relic that when equiped your minimum WS is based off the level of the Monster you are fighting.

100-90 = 2k ws minimum
90-50 = 3k ws minimum
50-0 = 4k ws minimum

or SOMETHING

Most Relics and Mythics currently are not worth the time when you can just spend a few weeks getting an empy and have very similar results for only 1/100th the effort.

[Ahrana]

I'm going to disagree with the general ideas posted in this thread. The last thing FFXI needs is to seperate people into haves and have nots, and changing relics into OMFG overwhelming weapons will do just that. We don't need to go back to a system of "relic or GTFO."

While some relics were bought using legitmate time and effort, I would venture to guess that most relics were funded by linkshell bank stealing, gil buying, or NM botting. Or those wonderful people who make a linkshell to help people get relics, but then they break it after they complete theirs. I'm really not inclined to have SE bend over backwards to "reward" these players with must have, game defining weapons at 99.

I'm ok with them being slightly more powerful then other options, but the changes suggested here are just overwhelming.

And when I say relic here I mean mythic weapons also, which are largely terribad with a few exceptions.

[Masamunai]

Possable Aegis enhancments

IDEA 1
THE MAGIC STATUS ROUTE
I have been thinking about possable aegis enhancments, SE said they wanted to keep Aegis focused on reducing magic damage not physical and I have thought of a good system that would do that yet keep aegis and ochain holders happy.

At the moment Aegis offers great protection from magical damage but what about magic status?

If they was to add a hidden effect of Enhancing resistance to status alments to the same % as the -% magic damage taken.

i.e. lvl 90 Aegis would be -40% magic damage taken and 40% resistance to status alments.

This would be a huge boost to aegis, allowing Aegis PLDs to have a high resist rates including Death, Doom, Silence, HP down, Amnesia and zombie status ect.

IDEA 2
THE MYTHS AND LEGENDS ROUTE

Acording to the myths and legends of Aegis the Head of Medusa was embosed upon the shield striking fear into all those who looked upon it.

In keeping with the myths and legends of Aegis give it "Enhances all killer traits" with a high proc rate

This would give all aegis users a very high chance of intinidating the monster therfore reducing the damage they would take with out raising the block rate or damage taken

^These are excellent ideas!

[Byrth]

I'm going to disagree with the general ideas posted in this thread. The last thing FFXI needs is to seperate people into haves and have nots, and changing relics into OMFG overwhelming weapons will do just that. We don't need to go back to a system of "relic or GTFO."

While some relics were bought using legitmate time and effort, I would venture to guess that most relics were funded by linkshell bank stealing, gil buying, or NM botting. Or those wonderful people who make a linkshell to help people get relics, but then they break it after they complete theirs. I'm really not inclined to have SE bend over backwards to "reward" these players with must have, game defining weapons at 99.

I'm ok with them being slightly more powerful then other options, but the changes suggested here are just overwhelming.

And when I say relic here I mean mythic weapons also, which are largely terribad with a few exceptions.

Thanks for reading! You may have missed something though.


I'm going to propose a few changes to keep relic weapons relevant, though I don't think there's any obligation to make them the "best" weapon for every job in every situation.


2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.

Other than that, thanks for the support guys!

[Ahrana]

Thanks for reading! You may have missed something though.


2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.


My rebuttal:


Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +35% magic damage, +65 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

[Byrth]

Nirvana (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Nirvana_%28Level_90%29) gets -7 perp.

Hverg (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hvergelmir_%28Level_90%29)gets Myrkr (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Myrkr). Admittedly, you'd need 2000 MP (plausible in Abyssea) for a 100TP Myrkr to restore 400 MP, but that weaponskill also lets you stay out of range and restores status effects.

Any run of the mill ToM staff (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Staff_Trials)that a dedicated player can grind out in literally two days gets 5 Affinity or -5 Perp, so this is a one point upgrade to both of those, and they come with spell casting or recast time reduction.

Claustrum currently has no niche. There currently is no single "best damage staff." Making Claustrum the best damage staff and functional in the other roles isn't overpowering it, it's giving it any role at all.

[Creelo]

Gjallarhorn does need a buff, even though a couple people here think otherwise.

I've said this in the Brd forums but...
If we do get March III (which an Animation does appear to be in the dats), then capping Magical Haste won't be exclusive to Gjallarhorn. Scherzo's better used with Daurdabla since the potency increase with Gjallarhorn isn't worth it. Ballads aren't needed inside Abyssea and we have easily obtainable Ballad+ gear to supplement Ballad for outside Abyssea anyways.

A song specific for Gjallarhorn has been in need for awhile, and it looks like it'll be hopefully getting Massacre Elegy, which would be a great buff to Gjallarhorn owners.

[Ahrana]

Nirvana (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Nirvana_%28Level_90%29) gets -7 perp.

Hverg (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hvergelmir_%28Level_90%29)gets Myrkr (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Myrkr). Admittedly, you'd need 2000 MP (plausible in Abyssea) for a 100TP Myrkr to restore 400 MP, but that weaponskill also lets you stay out of range and restores status effects.

Any run of the mill ToM staff (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Staff_Trials)that a dedicated player can grind out in literally two days gets 5 Affinity or -5 Perp, so this is a one point upgrade to both of those, and they come with spell casting or recast time reduction.

Claustrum currently has no niche. There currently is no single "best damage staff." Making Claustrum the best damage staff and functional in the other roles isn't overpowering it, it's giving it any role at all.

You're stretching now. A black mage weapon that does more magic damage and has more magic accuracy for every element then any other staff isn't a "niche" weapon (yes, even including the -casting or -recast times). Implying that it is because it has less -perp cost then a fully upgraded mythic, or that it doesn't recover as much mp as another staff that has no other redeeming value really exposes the weakness in your argument. The fact that you had to use abyssea buffs to even make the point makes it even more laughable.

[Byrth]

You're stretching now. A black mage weapon that does more magic damage and has more magic accuracy for every element then any other staff isn't a "niche" weapon (yes, even including the -casting or -recast times). Implying that it is because it has less -perp cost then a fully upgraded mythic, or that it doesn't recover as much mp as another staff that has no other redeeming value really exposes the weakness in your argument. The fact that you had to use abyssea buffs to even make the point makes it even more laughable.

No, it is a "niche" weapon. Its "niche" is being the best nuking weapon. Right now every relic and mythic nuking staff is outclassed by standard ToM staves. Making Claustrum the best nuking weapon by a paltry 4% (1.35/1.3) is not going to make it standard equipment or expected. As for how the BLM Mythic (Laev) would be changed to be useful, I'm not sure. You could just slap Enmity-50 on it with decent nuking stats and call it a day, but people tend not to value Enmity reduction on BLM because you generally re-cap VE every nuke with or without it. That's a problem for another day.

The -6 Perp and weaponskill are just a nod to Summoner (if you swap the staff you lose the aftermath), who can also equip the staff. In standard SMN-is-useful-here fights, some combination of Nirvana and/or Hverg would be preferable to this staff (for instance, idling and BPing in Nirvana and using Hverg when you get a Dusty Wing temp). My summoner has 1400 MP outside Abyssea wearing AF3+2 without MP merits. If people felt like it (including the +120 MP on the staff), I'm sure they could pump themselves up to 2000 MP for WS and get back 400MP at 100TP with Myrkr outside Abyssea if they felt like it.

Claustrum would just be a desirable weapon with a role instead of a gigantic waste of currency. It's not like making it useful is suddenly going to make it easy to obtain, with mages that fail to obtain it being ostracized by the (exclusive?) endgame establishment. The game is in its twilight years and people do events with any group they can cobble together. I accept people in my voidwatch alliance as long as I can be fairly sure they're less of a liability than they are an asset. Half the time I'm dualboxing two HQ Ele staff BLM/RDMs just going for procs. In Abyssea? Forget about it, I don't even bring staves when I'm proccing with my mule's BLM/BRD.

What does it hurt to have a clear "best" staff? Isn't the elusive "Rainbow Staff" what BLMs have been dreaming of for years? I've had friends who quit the game essentially because they capped out on gear and Bard is the only mage job that gets a useful relic or, in one case, got G-horn and then quit.

[Ahrana]

As I said before, while some people legitimately worked for their relic weapons, most of the people that have them buy gil, steal LS banks, sell drops on NM's claimed with bots, or make relic linkshells that get broken after they get theirs. I would prefer if SE didn't cater to the trash who normally have relic weapons.

[Byrth]

As I said before, while some people legitimately worked for their relic weapons, most of the people that have them buy gil, steal LS banks, sell drops on NM's claimed with bots, or make relic linkshells that get broken after they get theirs. I would prefer if SE didn't cater to the trash who normally have relic weapons.

There are plenty of legitimate players (honestly, probably the majority) that don't match your description of relic owners. "Relic Linkshells," Dynamis funding, and all that other crap have always been a trap, but they're a pretty obvious trap that's avoidable by anyone with half a brain and a little common sense. People that join them should realize what a pyramid scheme they are before they join, and just accept that they're trading a lot of potential profit for the ability to take part in endgame events (until something better comes along, I'd hope.) I didn't do Dynamis for two years because I couldn't find a shell that wasn't obviously exploitation. When I helped lead one, it was straight sell and split and I made sure we got top dollar for our currency.

Currently, relics are very easy to obtain relative to what they once were. They may not be quite Empyrean weapon-easy yet, but they really aren't very hard and get easier by the day as people figure out the new Dynamis proc system and the price of currency drops. In the last months and a half, I've effectively spent about a relic and a half worth of gil (on Alexandrite), most of which came from farming Dynamis, Salvage, BCNMs, sea/sky farming, and some minor resale. I don't sell anything R/Ex. I don't bot. I don't exploit people. If people come to help me, I try and make sure I'm not wasting their time. If I think I'm wasting their time, I feel bad and generally try to stop them from helping me.

These aren't some pie-in-the-sky god-weapons that only the demonic botting overlords of dragon's aery can possibly own (not that they ever have been). These are things that you could literally get in two months if you play regularly and put your mind to it. Farm about a 140 currency per day duoing with a mule (or friend) and weapons take about 14000 currency not including relic loan. Assuming all you do for currency is 2~2.5 hours of Dynamis a day (realistically including prep time), you're still looking at only ~4 months to complete your weapon. If you toss some gil into the equation or spend time doing other things I'm sure you could get it in 2.

[Chriscoffey]

My friend on Carbuncle named Arcanes got his Uko in a 23 hours time period so basically 1 day. The time required to get relics far exceeds that amount of time by a long shot. The empyrean weapons are quite easy to get compared to relic/mythic and yet they are far more powerful in most cases. I am curious how SE resolves this as they have mentioned. I am gleeful inside about that considering people with empyrean were quite happy to tell relic/mythic owners to suck it up and get over the old content. These are the same people that are upset their week or so empyrean weapons might become the weaker weapon.

[Alienmonkey]

Relic are trophy

[Kitkat]

Find it interesting that most people that are downing the idea of any enhancement to relic weapons mainly state the following:

Relic are trophy
People with Relic weapons either schemed it off people, stole banks, or bought gil to buy the currency.
Boosting relic weapons would just put people back into the Have and Have nots, we don't need a "relic or GTFO" mentality.
Relic are just fine the way they are.

Relic shouldn't be "just a trophy" based on all the work to get one.

Out of all the Relic owners in my LS I can tell you for a fact it has nothing to do with scheming the population, being a gil buyer, or stealing LS banks. In fact the number of people that do this is probably a smaller portion of relic owners than some of you think. I don't want to say this is envy on your part, but it is hard not to see it this way. And just to put it out there the Relic owners in the LS range from leads to normal members, our only requirement for obtaining a relic is be an active participant in all events and long-time membership.

While I agree Relic needs a little more of a boost, I don't want it super powered. I just want something that took me years to build to be equal to a weapon that takes only a matter of days to build. Even with adjustments to dynamis it still takes longer to build. It is just sad to see a weapon that took a few days to make outclassing one that takes longer by not just a few hundred dmg, but upwards of a few thousand in damage. If anything these weapons should be near to equal, not 10% or greater difference in favor of Emp.

As for the suggestion for Relic staff, I have to concur that making it that powerful is horribly unbalanced even by today's standards. While I think it needs some form of adjustment to actually be useful to mage oriented gameplay, I don't think it needs to be ridiculously outclassing other options. ToM weapons take a bit of time to make also so they shouldn't be cast aside so easily just because the boost is to a Relic weapon. As I said though, it should be geared more for mage play rather than melee.

[AldielQuetz]

@Xellith: Agreed, effort to reward ratio is off the charts as far as imbalance.

I would like to see all relics and mythics at the VERY LEAST brought up to par in Weaponskill strength and effectiveness of Aftermath. And you know I'm right! Just look at Apoc, gear haste can be capped FOR FREE with ease by almost every job, even Dusk Gloves+1 got bumped to tier1 to help facilitate this, so that weapon needs work, OH WAIT! HAI They all do!

@Ahrana. Are you trolling? Majority bought through RMT and stealing????? No, please be serious in this thread.

For some of us, that spent years collecting coins 1 by 1 at a time, dreamed of the day that it would finally be done, had friends come and gone that helped farm or even gave up some currency of their own( oh hai Daywalker ftw my last 752 o bronze pieces) that kind of talk is a slap in the face. Look, we get it, more user friendly is what SE is after, they want to keep their player base, cool, I like all the new content, I even have an empy, it's rad thanks... But PLEASE recognize those players that spent every single hour of their free time farming in this game to achieve the ultimate weapon. Just give us the attention, we the loyal, we the hard working, we the adventures who truly are adventurers at heart, just give us what we ask for, the balance we deserve.

Is that too much to ask? Not better, equal.

Thank you.

[Ahrana]

@Xellith: Agreed, effort to reward ratio is off the charts as far as imbalance.

I would like to see all relics and mythics at the VERY LEAST brought up to par in Weaponskill strength and effectiveness of Aftermath. And you know I'm right! Just look at Apoc, gear haste can be capped FOR FREE with ease by almost every job, even Dusk Gloves+1 got bumped to tier1 to help facilitate this, so that weapon needs work, OH WAIT! HAI They all do!

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.


@Ahrana. Are you trolling? Majority bought through RMT and stealing????? No, please be serious in this thread.

For some of us, that spent years collecting coins 1 by 1 at a time, dreamed of the day that it would finally be done, had friends come and gone that helped farm or even gave up some currency of their own( oh hai Daywalker ftw my last 752 o bronze pieces) that kind of talk is a slap in the face. Look, we get it, more user friendly is what SE is after, they want to keep their player base, cool, I like all the new content, I even have an empy, it's rad thanks... But PLEASE recognize those players that spent every single hour of their free time farming in this game to achieve the ultimate weapon. Just give us the attention, we the loyal, we the hard working, we the adventures who truly are adventurers at heart, just give us what we ask for, the balance we deserve.

Well, if you're slapped in the face then oh well. Fact is that it happened, and it happened a lot. Linkshells didn't sit up in Dragons Aery with bots to pass the time, that's how they bought (certain) members relics. Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. You can talk til you're blue in the face about how you earned your relic, and that may or may not be true. I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

If you ask them they all say they did the "hard work" approach though. Funny how that works.

[AldielQuetz]

Well on our server we obviously didn't have the same RMT problem until really late in the game, but I do see what you are saying Ahrana, but the generalization was you used a word like most/every/etc so that's all I took offense at. But you have to realize that on Quetz it literally took years for something like what you are talking about(example: ppl selling ebody etc). In fact a LS from another server MOVED to ours since they would have little or no competition to sell abjurations and ridills et al.

Regardless, my point remains... The people like me, like I HOPE is the majority, collected coins from lvl 15 no sub, and on.. That spent literal years of their life, farming Alkys, farming PCCs, starting their own dynamis LS and supporting multiple relics simultaneously like the one I was in(PerfectAteraxia), these people, these quality characters, they deserve to see these weapons be reworked. Period.

[Wolfandre]

Now, I apologize if this has been said, but my internet is crawling right now (I'm blaming the earthquake...) so I didn't get to read everything.

You can't really give Excalibur an enmity bonus or Mandau a big crit bonus because everyone seems to forget that there are multiple jobs (RDM!) on both of these weapons. I know that an Excal RDM wouldn't necesarily want to be on top of the hate list after WS-ing. Go ahead and lawl at me for suggesting RDM melee (for the record, I do it all the time! :D ), but there are those that do it, and since RDM doesn't have a Relic/Empy of their own, we have to adapt.

It's real a wonder, the role RDM gets put in. I mean, they cannot even be classified by their Relic/Mythic/Emperean because they're main'd and better used on other jobs. Why go Almace on RDM when BLU gets more sword skill and DEX? Shame on any RDM that needs the MACC from Murgleis. Can RDM get a bone in the ultimate weapon department?

However, personal gripes aside, I'm down with the proposed changes. I never went Relic hunting, mostly because the WS's and aftermaths were so awful, it didn't seem worth my time. I support the changes.

[Byrth]

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

It gives you 10% Equipment haste, which is why Apoc users have 16% Haste aftermath sets.


Well, if you're slapped in the face then oh well. Fact is that it happened, and it happened a lot. Linkshells didn't sit up in Dragons Aery with bots to pass the time, that's how they bought (certain) members relics. Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. You can talk til you're blue in the face about how you earned your relic, and that may or may not be true. I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

If you ask them they all say they did the "hard work" approach though. Funny how that works.

In the days of kings, I was in an event shell with well over a dozen relics that never camped kings. Dynamis, Salvage, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, Limbus, KS99s, Ouryu v2/Bahamut, etc. Most of the owners made their gil through crafting. The closest we came to HNM camping was camping Tiamat, which we did on a "your claim/camp, your drops" basis, or Ixion before there was stiff competition and spook wars. If they were RMTing, it wasn't to buy gil/relics but to sell.

Everyone in endgame (except people who don't camp anything) were called botters at one point or another in those days. Half of the times the accusations were accurate. Heck, I got called a botter at one point by an unabashed chinese RMT taru in sky because I claimed Ulli so quickly. Best botter to ever grace the PS2, if I don't say so myself!

Anyway, it doesn't matter what your opinion of past relic owners is. Lowering the effort required to get a relic (through the dynamis re-vamp) opens the door for many new potential relic owners who shouldn't be penalized for your opinion of their predecessors.



Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

[SpankWustler]

demonic botting overlords of dragon's aery

I've been looking for a name for my progressive blackened death metal band for a while, and I finally found it! You just saved me from being the bass-player in "Satan's Butt".

I've never understood the argument of "some people do things in a manner of which I do not approve, and therefor [insert argument here]" in the context of FFXI. What some people choose to do socially shouldn't determine the numbers on items, in my opinion.

Anyway, the current method for obtaining a relic weapon is "repeatedly duo or trio dynamis with a few bros and bro-ettes" so should how people obtained them back in the day even matter?

[Atomic_Skull]

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.


Oh, wow lol

[Cursed]

Oh, wow lol

wasn't always like that though. A way to start to fix apoc would be to undo what they did two years ago.


EDIT: I've been thinking a lot about Spharai. While I don't think they should beat their empyrean counterpart I do think SE can bring some traditional elements to MNK through them, without overshadowing mythic/empyrean.

If spharai could be given additional effects that grant stun/paralyze/ and a dot effect "bleed" I think the weapon would be far more appealing.
Idk, could make the additional effect be dependant on JAs you use.
for exampe
"Spharai Lv.99
Augments Focus - with focus up, melee attacks with spharai have a 40% chance of paralyzing target
Augments Perfect Counter - counters may inflict a wound and cause target to bleed for 2 minutes @ 20hp/tick.
Augments Impetus - with impetus up and spharai, attacks have a 40% chance of stunning target.

[Byrth]

wasn't always like that though. A way to start to fix apoc would be to undo what they did two years ago.

Are you sure? I think the only changes they made were adding the Haste cap and making Aftermath wear off if you switched weapons. You never needed an Apoc to hit 93.3% Haste on DRK, you just needed one to hit it without using a 2-hour (other than the DRK's). That's why Bahamut's Zaghnal zerging was momentarily popular.

Using Apoc would let you use Haste belt (10% magic Haste), which you could combine with BRD songs (20.5%) and Haste spell (15%) for capped magic Haste without SV. Not really practical outside zergs, but nice for zergs while it lasted I guess. For a while, you could also swap weapons (even to k-club, iirc) and maintain the 10% Haste aftermath.

[Cursed]

Are you sure? I think the only changes they made were adding the Haste cap and making Aftermath wear off if you switched weapons. You never needed an Apoc to hit 93.3% Haste on DRK, you just needed one to hit it without using a 2-hour (other than the DRK's). That's why Bahamut's Zaghnal zerging was momentarily popular.

Using Apoc would let you use Haste belt (10% magic Haste), which you could combine with BRD songs (20.5%) and Haste spell (15%) for capped magic Haste without SV. Not really practical outside zergs, but nice for zergs while it lasted I guess. For a while, you could also swap weapons (even to k-club, iirc) and maintain the 10% Haste aftermath.

Yeah I should have been a bit clearer - Remove the Haste cap for Apoc users like they removed the PDT/MDT cap for burtgang and Aegis.

But keep the "unequiping apoc causes aftermath to drop" as none of us want to see a return to 300% catos for KC SE/BW zergs. Always did my head in thinking of Apoc as an accessory for KC's

[Cursed]

Almost forgot, SE please ... fix the name of Excalibur's WS... its been almost a decade.
Knights of Round..... needs to be "Knights of the Round"

[Genoxd]

Almost forgot, SE please ... fix the name of Excalibur's WS... its been almost a decade.
Knights of Round..... needs to be "Knights of the Round"

wow.....I just now noticed this...I've been adding/saying the since I first saw the weapon X_X this needs to be fixed..

[Wolfandre]

Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

[Tamoa]

I detect a lot of jealousy in this thread...


Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. ------------- I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.


I do not think that items like Ridill, Ebody and Dring were commonly sold by hnm shells back @ 75 cap. Hell, people are still wanting those items. As for things like BB items and Nhead - those were common drops and linkshells got capped on them quickly. Hermes Sandals? Same deal, linkshells got capped on them quickly, especially seeing as it's only a very few jobs that can equip them. Would it be better to just let these items hit the ground? Or do you think they should have been given away for free and not sold? Something tells me you never did hnms or even other endgame activities much.

As for the bolded part - how do you know this? Have they told you themselves straight out how they got their relic weapon? Or are you just repeating what you have heard from others - i.e. gossip.

I don't have a relic. But I have several friends who have one, and I know they worked their butt off for this weapon. So on behalf of them, and every other relic owner that earned their weapon the hard way, I do take offense. I'm certain the majority of relic owners got theirs by hard work and dedication. And I hope the weapons get the buffs they deserve, seeing as they have been "the best of the best" (for the most part) for such a long time.

[MiriOhki]

I can't add much to this conversation I guess (Having little chance to get a relic, no chance to get a mythic and working on Verethragna but it's like walking on oil-covered glass getting help), but I do have to agree with one comment above:

Can we please get some TOAU/WOTG Relic Love? Wouldn't be hard (BLU: Excalibur, PUP: Spharai, COR: Annihilator, DNC: Mandau, SCH:... Well, Claustrum I guess, just to throw them a bone. I love SCH, but Claustrum, as is, doesn't do a whole lot for SCH, though the Refresh Aftermath couldn't hurt, especially if you're TPing via Occult Accumen.)

[DebbieGibson]

Find it interesting that most people that are downing the idea of any enhancement to relic weapons mainly state the following:

Relic are trophy
People with Relic weapons either schemed it off people, stole banks, or bought gil to buy the currency.
Boosting relic weapons would just put people back into the Have and Have nots, we don't need a "relic or GTFO" mentality.
Relic are just fine the way they are.

Relic shouldn't be "just a trophy" based on all the work to get one.

Out of all the Relic owners in my LS I can tell you for a fact it has nothing to do with scheming the population, being a gil buyer, or stealing LS banks. In fact the number of people that do this is probably a smaller portion of relic owners than some of you think. I don't want to say this is envy on your part, but it is hard not to see it this way. And just to put it out there the Relic owners in the LS range from leads to normal members, our only requirement for obtaining a relic is be an active participant in all events and long-time membership.

While I agree Relic needs a little more of a boost, I don't want it super powered. I just want something that took me years to build to be equal to a weapon that takes only a matter of days to build. Even with adjustments to dynamis it still takes longer to build. It is just sad to see a weapon that took a few days to make outclassing one that takes longer by not just a few hundred dmg, but upwards of a few thousand in damage. If anything these weapons should be near to equal, not 10% or greater difference in favor of Emp.

As for the suggestion for Relic staff, I have to concur that making it that powerful is horribly unbalanced even by today's standards. While I think it needs some form of adjustment to actually be useful to mage oriented gameplay, I don't think it needs to be ridiculously outclassing other options. ToM weapons take a bit of time to make also so they shouldn't be cast aside so easily just because the boost is to a Relic weapon. As I said though, it should be geared more for mage play rather than melee.

I have two relic, still just trophy. I'm not mad at them being weak. I was replying that at comments that their strength should be proportionate to the time needed to acquire, which I greatly disagree with. They should be barely better than empyreans, just barely. I hate the game breaking nature of aegis, even though I have one.

[Byrth]

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

If you're meleeing and doing good damage, you will inevitably tank. If you're a competent player, it's better to have you tank on RDM/NIN than the guys you're out-DDing on lolRDM. I still don't see the issue.

[Kitkat]

I have two relic, still just trophy. I'm not mad at them being weak. I was replying that at comments that their strength should be proportionate to the time needed to acquire, which I greatly disagree with. They should be barely better than empyreans, just barely. I hate the game breaking nature of aegis, even though I have one.

I have a moghouse full of trophies from holiday events, I didn't build a relic for aesthetics as I'm sure a good deal of others didn't. Most I know with a relic or emp. weapon built them for 1 reason: utility. I have one of each for the two jobs I use the most. A Trophy is something you get for show alone. I don't suppose you have yours just for show do you? Put it on only for Idle gear?

Additionally when I say "Should be worth the effort" I never said I want them to be decidedly more powerful than emp. I even stated they should be near to equal in strength and power. Some of them are equal in WS strength, yes, but due to the type of aftermath Emp. have they pull noticeably ahead of relic. Then you have the ones where the WS leaves the relic version in the dust on top of the aftermath effect. For Mandau, I personally like the aftermath the way it is, but seeing a WS difference of 1~1.5k in ideal situations is discouraging. The WS themselves have no TP mod unlike Emp weapons other than to prolong duration of aftermath.

Relics only need minor boosts to be equal to the emp and that is all I want; a minor boost in performance to close the otherwise outrageous gap that exist now.

[DebbieGibson]

I have a moghouse full of trophies from holiday events, I didn't build a relic for aesthetics as I'm sure a good deal of others didn't. Most I know with a relic or emp. weapon built them for 1 reason: utility. I have one of each for the two jobs I use the most. A Trophy is something you get for show alone. I don't suppose you have yours just for show do you? Put it on only for Idle gear?

Additionally when I say "Should be worth the effort" I never said I want them to be decidedly more powerful than emp. I even stated they should be near to equal in strength and power. Some of them are equal in WS strength, yes, but due to the type of aftermath Emp. have they pull noticeably ahead of relic. Then you have the ones where the WS leaves the relic version in the dust on top of the aftermath effect. For Mandau, I personally like the aftermath the way it is, but seeing a WS difference of 1~1.5k in ideal situations is discouraging. The WS themselves have no TP mod unlike Emp weapons other than to prolong duration of aftermath.

Relics only need minor boosts to be equal to the emp and that is all I want; a minor boost in performance to close the otherwise outrageous gap that exist not.

I wasn't talking about you.
I was referring to this post:



SE devs talk about balance yet they have no idea what they are doing with regards to relic/mythic/empy weapons.

Difficulty:Reward ratio is skewed to badly with regards to these weapons its impossible to take the dev team seriously when they talk about said "balance".

Relics and Mythic should be much much more powerful.

Relics should be much more powerful with a higher DMG and better aftermath. Mythic should be on par with relics.

Empy should be SLIGHTLY easier to obtain with regard to collecting all those items at the end trials. Reduce the amount needed from 50 to 25. From 75 to 50. Bump up the NM difficulty so they cant just be easily low manned (hi to you masamune) and increase the number of NMs which must be hunted for these trials to start with.

But in the big picture im sure others can come up with better ideas than these. I just want it to be known that in my personal opinion relics should be very very powerful with the difficulty in obtaining them. Hell release a ring that corrosponds to each particular relic that when equiped your minimum WS is based off the level of the Monster you are fighting.

100-90 = 2k ws minimum
90-50 = 3k ws minimum
50-0 = 4k ws minimum


Relic/mythic should have a little bit of utility I agree, but I do not think it should be more than 2-3% better than the 2nd best option.

[Sama]

Just remove the off-hand limitation plz it's not fair at this moment which emp doesn't have that limitation; I still get the agi+ from Kannagi when used off-hand.

[Insaniac]

This thread has gone off the deep end!!!

Apoc should never and will never break the haste cap again. 90% haste vs. 80% haste results in you doing twice as much damage.

Also yes it's gear haste. LOL at telling someone their argument is invalid because they made a mistake when you are the one who made the mistake. Also, please gtfo with the "most people cheated to get their relic" argument.

People who don't think relics and mythics should be at least as good as emps melt my brain. There is no justification for something that takes as much effort as a relic/mythic to ever be outclassed by something that takes monumentally less work. Saying they are trophies is absolute nonsense.

[Kitkat]

Just remove the off-hand limitation plz it's not fair at this moment which emp doesn't have that limitation; I still get the agi+ from Kannagi when used off-hand.

I concur with this, or at least make it so the visible stats work in offhand.

[DebbieGibson]

Saying they are trophies is absolute nonsense.

Nah, their strength should not be commensurate with the effort required to obtain. Slightly better sure, but the main reason to get outside of horn/shield is as a trophy item. Who is gonna waste 200m for 1% increase in dmg if they are really trying to improve their character? Would better to spend that on another job that has crapper equip, or to gear up an alt mule.

[Byrth]

For the record, my suggestion (and Kirschy's) was to just make Apoc a different kind of Haste outside the categories of JA/Magic/Gear Haste, but still leave it subject to the 80% cap. This would allow Apoc DRK to be a more versatile low-buff job, instead of using aftermath to give a mostly trivial advantage to your TP set.

[AldielQuetz]

And another note....

WE WANT IMPROVEMENT NOT ANOTHER HOOP TO JUMP THROUGH. KTHX.

Translation, fix the relics, fix the mythics, THEN add another trial.

Make the balance we all desire please, thank you.

[DebbieGibson]

The level 75 80 85 90 and 95 versions are going to be useless anyway so I don't see what the rush is about.

[Gouka]

Just to crystallize the arguments of the naysayers...


Nah, their strength should not be commensurate with the effort required to obtain.

"The quality of a reward shouldn't reflect the amount of work it takes to get it!" or,
"There should be no additional motivation for doing extra work!"

Sound about right?

If you start an Empyrean weapon, ANY Empyrean weapon, you can have it done in a matter of weeks if you have trouble with drops and with getting people to come help. Working hard on a Relic from the beginning is on the order of months and starting a Mythic from the ground is well over a year. But yeah, you guys are right, they should all be basically the same.

[Sama]

The level 75 80 85 90 and 95 versions are going to be useless anyway so I don't see what the rush is about.

That's exactly what I'm thinking... the ws dmg bonus on lv90 relic is as lame as you can think of. So just remove the off-hand limitation and we'll be happy, at least for a short while.

[DebbieGibson]

Just to crystallize the arguments of the naysayers...



"The quality of a reward shouldn't reflect the amount of work it takes to get it!" or,
"There should be no additional motivation for doing extra work!"

Sound about right?

If you start an Empyrean weapon, ANY Empyrean weapon, you can have it done in a matter of weeks if you have trouble with drops and with getting people to come help. Working hard on a Relic from the beginning is on the order of months and starting a Mythic from the ground is well over a year. But yeah, you guys are right, they should all be basically the same.

Do you understand that if the effort to acquire was commensurate with the benefits given that the weapons would be too overpowered? If empyrean takes a week and relic takes a month, that means bravura should have 400 base damage, and conqueror should have 800 base damage?

They should be better than empyrean, I agree, but just barely. It would be stupid if their power was commensurate with the time required to obtain.

[AldielQuetz]

A. Watch your mouth Debbie, that's your only warning.

B. The point is, shouldn't they at least be equal in strength of WS and aftermath? Yes they should. Nobody wants to degrade Empyreans by upgrading Relics and Mythics, we just want the time it takes to make one to be a talking point/leverage to push for equalizing the top percentile of weapons.

C. I like you Debbie, explitives are not necessary to make a point, we can all hear you fine.

[Gouka]

Haha, seriously? Where did you get a linear progression from? Did anyone say all stats should be proportional to time spent? Relic and Mythic should be significantly better than Empyrean weapons and the effort required to get them is really all the necessary justification. Nobody even hinted at your extremist suggestion. Your gross and inapporpriate overreaction makes me embarrassed for you.

I believe in being fair about ignoring people, and I imagine it doesn't even matter to you, but I'm letting you know formally: I find you have very little to constructively contribute, generally, and if you lash out again I'll be blocking you. Cheers.

[DebbieGibson]

Haha, seriously? Where did you get a linear progression from? Did anyone say all stats should be proportional to time spent? Relic and Mythic should be significantly better than Empyrean weapons and the effort required to get them is really all the necessary justification. Nobody even hinted at your extremist suggestion. Your gross and inapporpriate overreaction makes me embarrassed for you.

I believe in being fair about ignoring people, and I imagine it doesn't even matter to you, but I'm letting you know formally: I find you have very little to constructively contribute, generally, and if you lash out again I'll be blocking you. Cheers.

So you agree then that the time spent should not be proportionate to the strength of the weapon.

[Gouka]

I was never advocating proportional buffs in the first place. But I think most people would agree that "barely" improving them over their Empyrean counterparts is not really fair. I'm not in favor of nerfing things people have already earned, but I am in favor of bolstering items that take inordinately more time and effort to obtain.

Honestly, I see the problem as a scaling one. SE said for eight years, "This is how much work you have to do to get a weapon like this." Then they came and made Empyreans amazing and, comparitively, a joke to obtain.

[Byrth]

Keep in mind that relics are likely to get joke-y upgrade trials on the way to 99. Something along the lines of "Kill 5 Animated ______s!" followed by "Kill 5 Dynamis Lords!" Empyreans are likely to get something more like, "Collect 75 New Voidwatch NM drops!"

From what I remember, SE has expressed an intent to make the weapons approximately equally difficult to obtain at 99 after all the patches are done and the dust has settled. As such, I think the weapons will be balanced when a hardcore player for any given job has a reason to seek out all three. That's the idea with the niche approach in the OP. Each weapon should have a situation where it shines.

As pointed out on the last page, it gets hard with mage weapons because they all basically suck at the moment so making any of them an upgrade over non-big-3 weapons is met with outrage for some reason. Then, even if you can agree they should be better, you're left to decide which weapon should fill which role.

[Atomic_Skull]

DNC: Mandau

DNC has stolen enough of THF's stuff already. If they did this I would have to climb a clock tower with a rifle.

[Insaniac]

I agree Byrth. I'm thinking level 95 will be 75 and level 99 will be 100 items from something annoying. This still probably won't make them as time consuming as relics or mythics but it will bring them close enough to not have them completely outclassed for the sake of fairness. For the moment though it's super annoying for someone who spent a lot of time and/or gil on a weapon to have it outclassed. They need to balance them at all levels instead of eventually having them catch up.

[DebbieGibson]

How come when we are going to be 99 soon? The lower level ones are just going to be useless compared easy to acquire options. Or at least I would expect it will be closer to how things were at 75. Where the 2nd best weapon to a relic is something like destroyers or perdu voulge.

[Wolfandre]

If you're meleeing and doing good damage, you will inevitably tank. If you're a competent player, it's better to have you tank on RDM/NIN than the guys you're out-DDing on lolRDM. I still don't see the issue.

Point taken, good sir.

[Insaniac]

How come when we are going to be 99 soon? The lower level ones are just going to be useless compared easy to acquire options. Or at least I would expect it will be closer to how things were at 75. Where the 2nd best weapon to a relic is something like destroyers or perdu voulge.We aren't going to be 99 for probably 7 months. That's a fair chunk of time.

[AldielQuetz]

There are posts about some Japanese text being translated into English saying that Mythics now receive an occasionally attack 2-3 instead of just 2, on their Lv 95 versions.

Can anyone at SE confirm the validity of this information?

And if so: the same text shows no change in relic weapons other than their base damage increasing to the same as their mythic counterpart(burtang and Excalibur both reaching D69). Can we also expect an increase in the performance of our aftermath? Like increases in Regen, addition of Refresh in Excalibur's case?

Thank you for your time^^

[Asraa]

One can only hope that relics are receiving much more then simply base dmg increase. I'm wishfully thinking that the 1.5x-3x dmg proc rate and ws dmg will be increased with the 95 version.

[SpankWustler]

Can anyone at SE confirm the validity of this information?

I'm not at SE, but yes, that's what the moogle on the test server says in some languages. Including Japanese.

Given that those languages are always more reliable than the English translations for some reason, there is no reason to doubt this.

[AldielQuetz]

Does anyone know what relics get? I know that mythics get occ att 2-3 times aftermath at 300 TP so what do relics get? I hope it is something substantial since relic aftermaths for the most part were weak to begin with. Honestly and I have felt this from the day I finished my sword, honestly Excalibur has never been on top, company sword had higher base DMG at 75, burtang aside, we jump to 4 years later we have a sword made in Almace that is instantly on top.

I know that it is a money making scheme, that the best weapons are in abyss, so buy abyss, but haven't we all paid enough monthly already to see relics and mythics shine?

Please?

[Byrth]

As far as I know, the relic trials cannot be undertaken at the moment. Superficially (from looking at the stats at the moogle), relics just receive a base damage increase. I'd bet there's more hidden WS damage+X% tacked on there.

[Frost]

What relics get?

What they always get, the carrot moves a little closer, but it's still on that f'ing stick dangling in front of our faces.

[AldielQuetz]

Hey Phraust, nice to see a familiar face. Yea it's a tease, and I hate a tease in life, in women, in everything.

What does it take to get some Dev attention in this place?

[Asraa]

It would be nice to get some Dev attention, but I fear the release of any information regarding future relics enhancements could cause a price spike in currency. Well at least currency is cheap atm, so build them before SE buffs relics if ever.

[Nala]

hmm... why was this thread in my side bar when all the posts are old?

[Ophannus]

Gungnir's Aftermath needs to be changed from Shock Spikes to Enthunder. The potency of Enthunder should be proportionate to your Wyvern's current HP. (Say like 1/10th) So you get an extra 100-150 damage added to your hits. (Although the animation would be the same as "Enthunder" it would actually do non-elemental damage, similar to how Excalibur's additional effect looks like Enlight but does not actually deal light-based damage.

[Unleashhell]

Possable Aegis enhancments

IDEA 1
THE MAGIC STATUS ROUTE
I have been thinking about possable aegis enhancments, SE said they wanted to keep Aegis focused on reducing magic damage not physical and I have thought of a good system that would do that yet keep aegis and ochain holders happy.

At the moment Aegis offers great protection from magical damage but what about magic status?

If they was to add a hidden effect of Enhancing resistance to status alments to the same % as the -% magic damage taken.

i.e. lvl 90 Aegis would be -40% magic damage taken and 40% resistance to status alments.

This would be a huge boost to aegis, allowing Aegis PLDs to have a high resist rates including Death, Doom, Silence, HP down, Amnesia and zombie status ect.

IDEA 2
THE MYTHS AND LEGENDS ROUTE

Acording to the myths and legends of Aegis the Head of Medusa was embosed upon the shield striking fear into all those who looked upon it.

In keeping with the myths and legends of Aegis give it "Enhances all killer traits" with a high proc rate

This would give all aegis users a very high chance of intinidating the monster therfore reducing the damage they would take with out raising the block rate or damage taken

I think your 2nd route is awesome. I 100% agree. The 1st route I think might be slightly overpowered but I'd have to think about it a little more.

[Daniel]

Thumbs up for offhand relics and Kikoku buffs! I doubt they will put offhand relics back on the map though, they had an error where it worked in the offhand and they quickly removed it stating that it was not intentional, and that they would not be implementing such a thing.

This is all very irritating considering that Blade: Hi from my 85 Kanagi makes my 95 Kikoku something I would much rather offhand. Perhaps better yet would be if weapons still gave their weapon skills while in the offhand position. I'm sure they will just site that as being unbalanced for players with 2h weapons. We all know 1h weapons are just so competitive with 2h weapons these days right!?.

[Kitkat]

I could understand partial lock out of relic weapons (like say possibly hidden effects) but have to agree that total lock out in offhand is rather silly when you end up with other offhand daggers that add to str and att where relics only add att (and if allowed a mostly pointless add effect save sword).

As far as the 1hand becoming unbalanced with 2h if given offhand stat available....I doubt it. Currently 1hand emp don't give ws offhand so I don't see this ever happening with relic. I would be happy just to see the actual stat bonus and add effects work at the very least. Additionally I would love to see it made so that the hidden 3x/2.5x/2x damage effects were true 10~20% proc rates on all attacks with the weapon instead of first strike of every round only. Given the low proc rate in comparison to emp aftermath and the fact that emp aftermath can proc on every hit of that primary hand weapon, I don't see why relics are limited to first strike of every round

IE:
If I have 1300 attacks in 900 rounds then I'll have ~90-180 hidden procs with relic weapon (depending on hidden type). Given that keeping up aftermath is not unrealistic, but has situational limiters, I can drop roughly 25% of the attacks off 1300 for 975 attacks. At lvl 1 aftermath of 30% ODD you're still going to see ODD proc on ~292 of those attacks. Even if emp were limited to a limit of 1st per round that would still be ~190-220 proc rate out of 900 rounds.

SE's most probable retort to this is that relics don't need WS to activate the hidden Proc rate, but does that really justify it? Even severely limiting the fact that you'd have aftermath up (I've done this to as low as 60% up time) it still procs more often that an always active hidden effect primarily due to their limitation of being stuck on first strike of every round.