This thread AGAIN, please, fix WK.

[Demon6324236]

No matter how they adjust it. It will never be 100% fair. Look at VW? Random numbers or "Luck" as you call it will never be fair. Unless they bring the event back to 18 alliance as you want it to be, then DEVs would have to go back old obstacles. They would only be pulling the rope to the other side.

Make boss easy for less people would only mean increase boss kills for lower drop rate so items don't overflate the community. Which means back to everyone complaining why no one invites the job I want to play??

Then they would have to add proc system to FORCE you to invite other jobs.Failed to understand I was saying that it is possible to make an event fun, rewarding, and not make them fight the same thing for hours on end, but at the same time, have a successful event people will return to.




You want WR to be VW??Failed to understand that I was explaining how VW could be easily changed to fit the 6 criteria I set for a good event, that it be fun, entertaining, difficult, winnable, fair, and rewarding.




I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm sure they will eventually adjust the event over time. I saw it happen in previous content. But the difference is, I wasn't on the forums 24/7 hounding the DEV TEAM to do it.

And to me, you are wasting your breathe complaining over something I see will be eventually sorted out later. If the DEVs didn't do it at the moment, its because they have reasons we don't know about.Same as above, however this time it was WKs rather than VW.




And what you see in WR are the DEVs way of making HNM event better. It's just hard to please people at ilvl 120 than level 70-75. Bigger difference, bigger demands, and less patience at this point of the game.Failed to understand how just because something is better than the worst possible thing does not make it worth praise or defending.




Because you can see who gets rare. I think discreet is better so people don't get jealous or disappointed they saw someone get all the good drops. Or the good drops more than once. Only for everyone to see that person bail after getting their item.Failed to understand I appreciate a good reward system and despise poor reward systems, and instead turned it into something that reads similar to 'your jelly'.




Which is important to you right now? Job fixes? Or adding in Skirmish, WR items, Delve items, New craft weapons, new bosses, additional content? I mean is it really that desperately urgent?Failed to understand my general position on how updates should go apparently, even though you have seen many of my posts, including but not limited to my thread about making no new content and instead focusing on fixing the game up first, as the foundation is more important than rushing to build on top of it constantly.




At end game, I like the freedom to participate than be strict to doing what in told at the moment. If I want that, abbyssea and VW can fill that need. I just think its refreshing to show up any job I want and actually play my job that someone telling me every second to proc this, proc that, oh sorry its your fault the entire team died, or we don't need your job because your procs are not needed.Failed to understand that I do not want them to be necessary, but rather, a stratigical advantage to bring jobs which would otherwise not be as useful, such as BLM which DDs slower than other DDs on something like Tojil, but if it could give him Amnesia for 10 seconds with a specific nuke element doing enough DMG, it would become a staple job of sorts. This kind of thing is what I was getting at.




That's what makes every event different, and to me it sounds like you hate every event.Failed to understand I was talking mostly about making content possible to lowman and make content live longer by allowing people to do it as they wish, without needing a ton of others, or if its easy enough, others at all.




One of the issues NA community has is discriminating players for not playing the job they want you to play. Which doesn't happen most of the time in JP parties unless its an event that forces leaders to invite specific jobs.Failed to understand that what I was saying is that SE can not possibly fix this no matter what they do, it will always remain, no matter who does it, be it Japanese, North Americans, or Martians, it will always happen, and so its not a reasonable argument against anything.

[Daemon]

If you are tired of this then why do you keep quoting me? Obviously your point of view is not the same as mine and we both are not going to budge on the way we think. Which proves that there are people in the world who think differently.

[Daemon]

Failed to understand I was saying that it is possible to make an event fun, rewarding, and not make them fight the same thing for hours on end, but at the same time, have a successful event people will return to.



Failed to understand that I was explaining how VW could be easily changed to fit the 6 criteria I set for a good event, that it be fun, entertaining, difficult, winnable, fair, and rewarding.



Same as above, however this time it was WKs rather than VW.



Failed to understand how just because something is better than the worst possible thing does not make it worth praise or defending.



Failed to understand I appreciate a good reward system and despise poor reward systems, and instead turned it into something that reads similar to 'your jelly'.



Failed to understand my general position on how updates should go apparently, even though you have seen many of my posts, including but not limited to my thread about making no new content and instead focusing on fixing the game up first, as the foundation is more important than rushing to build on top of it constantly.



Failed to understand that I do not want them to be necessary, but rather, a stratigical advantage to bring jobs which would otherwise not be as useful, such as BLM which DDs slower than other DDs on something like Tojil, but if it could give him Amnesia for 10 seconds with a specific nuke element doing enough DMG, it would become a staple job of sorts. This kind of thing is what I was getting at.



Failed to understand I was talking mostly about making content possible to lowman and make content live longer by allowing people to do it as they wish, without needing a ton of others, or if its easy enough, others at all.



Failed to understand that what I was saying is that SE can not possibly fix this no matter what they do, it will always remain, no matter who does it, be it Japanese, North Americans, or Martians, it will always happen, and so its not a reasonable argument against anything.

You fail to even quote me on what I've said about game development. When you start quoting me on what I've explained then I can understand you better because right now I'm having a hard time trying to converse with you when you are only responding in only disagreements.

[Demon6324236]

Why? Simple, because I said you failed to understand, you claimed you did, as such I was provoked into showing you how you fail to understand, now I have done so.

[Demon6324236]

You fail to even quote me on what I've said about game development.You took a single course on game development which is miles away from actually making games. If you had a career in game development and went into detail on how hard it would be to do things, that's one thing. What you are doing is the equal to having looked at the end of a test booklet in 3rd grade and seeing multiplication, or worse, fractions, and thinking it looks like pure insanity, yet on the other hand, its simple to those who study it in 4th grade. You taking a single class in game development made it look hard, and I am sure its no cake walk either, but I doubt you taking a single class makes you anywhere near an expert on how hard it really is for a professional who makes games for a living, because simply put, your not as well educated in the field.


When you start quoting me on what I've explained then I can understand you better because right now I'm having a hard time trying to converse with you when you are only responding in only disagreements.Because as I said earlier when you had no ability to post, I disagree with 90% of what you say here, that's why I seem to disagree with everything.

[Daemon]

You took a single course on game development which is miles away from actually making games. If you had a career in game development and went into detail on how hard it would be to do things, that's one thing. What you are doing is the equal to having looked at the end of a test booklet in 3rd grade and seeing multiplication, or worse, fractions, and thinking it looks like pure insanity, yet on the other hand, its simple to those who study it in 4th grade. You taking a single class in game development made it look hard, and I am sure its no cake walk either, but I doubt you taking a single class makes you anywhere near an expert on how hard it really is for a professional who makes games for a living, because simply put, your not as well educated in the field.

Because as I said earlier when you had no ability to post, I disagree with 90% of what you say here, that's why I seem to disagree with everything.

UHG it was NOT simple. It was part of the requirement for my Audio engineering degree that was very hard and very extensive. Although I did not take a course on making an actual video game I had to study it in order to understand how Music/Sound effects innteracts with games.

And yes we did use Unity and REAL game engine in the course.

That includes workshops opening a game created in Unity 3D and adding in sounds and understanding room acoustics in a 3D environment and POV perspective. How each sound and music starts and ends through various rooms within the game. From various points of view and how using filters can give the effect depending on the filter variation we use to give an impression of sounding like if someone was walking behindC beside, in front of you. Because sound design is about using effects to make things sound realistic.

But in order for us to understand all of this, we had to go over how game development works and the obstacles programmers face.

[OmnysValefor]

When people get what they want, people will stop playing the event making it harder for others to get a group together.

This only covers some portion of the people who are "done". Many people, like myself, who are done with Wildskeeper, are just tired for five hours for a log or a mistletoe.

It is a relief we have the quest because, if I didn't have them by now, I wouldn't even go for Buremte gloves.

[Demon6324236]

UHF it was NOT simple. It was part of the requirement for my Audio engineering degree that was very hard and very extensive. Although I did not take a course on making an actual video game I had to study it in order to understand how Music interacts with games.

And yes we did use Unity and REAL game engine in the course.You miss my point once again.

Its not about how hard it was for you, your not making a career out of it. Someone who is being paid to work on a game and does it for a living should have a vastly larger understanding of it all than you. For this reason, no matter how hard it was or seemed for you, someone who does it for a living should be able to do it much, much easier, and also should have a much greater understanding of it all than you ever should. For this reason, no matter if you took the class or not, its not the same thing as what they have, so while you know basic multiplication, they know division, fractions, and algebra too, all of which they are used to, use on a daily basis, and understand much more fully than you do.

[Daemon]

You miss my point once again.

Its not about how hard it was for you, your not making a career out of it. Someone who is being paid to work on a game and does it for a living should have a vastly larger understanding of it all than you. For this reason, no matter how hard it was or seemed for you, someone who does it for a living should be able to do it much, much easier, and also should have a much greater understanding of it all than you ever should. For this reason, no matter if you took the class or not, its not the same thing as what they have, so while you know basic multiplication, they know division, fractions, and algebra too, all of which they are used to, use on a daily basis, and understand much more fully than you do.

And you don't understand that regardless if a person is paid $10 or $100,000. You can't do more than what you are limited to.

You can't expect an old car to put out like a Ferrari.

Unless you change everything which I keep repeating myself and many others trying to tell you that but you are not listening.

You don't think no one in 11 years told the Devs to raise inventory past 80?? This is an example of your ignorance.

This is why I tried to explain it to you to begin with.

Now that was the simple example.

Game balance was the much more complicated examples I went over and we spent a great deal of time learning about this most of the course I took.

You will never understand unless other game developers jump in and tell you what I've told you. Or study up on it and see for yourself.

[Daemon]

You are arguing with me from the point of view that WR is completely permanent and the DEVs need to change it.

I'm telling you I see it as a construction worker putting down the base of a house. And that its not complete. And over time they will build on top of it. Adjust it, add things to it, make changes throughout time.

Then I gave you reasons why I don't think they will change it after they already adjusted it, made it better.

Then I told you why I didn't see them changing it again right when FFXIV was around the corner. Seriously go back and reread.

I never disagreed with you that it needs to be better.

Which I repeated 10 million times...

But I also see why it's the way it is for the time being and even explained that.

[OmnysValefor]

First, who are the many others trying to explain? At this point, there's about 4 of us posting in this thread, lol.

Second, some PS2 limitations are ingrained into the game, the game cannot be changed in the fashion without reworking something deep in it. However, other limitations are entirely because they keep themselves tied the PS2.

It's like having 3 men working for a moving company. One can competently carry 300 lbs (pc), another 200, and the last guy (ps2) can only carry 80lbs. The boxes that the company uses can't hold more than 180 lbs (analogous to hardcoded limitations that are now too difficult/expensive to change), but the company says that they don't want more than 80 lbs loaded in the boxes.

Where we're at is that se is limiting themselves to what the smallest guy can carry. They could fire him, and be more effective with the two men. Neither of the other 2 would have the problems the little guy had, and the company could be a lot more effective.

[Daemon]

First, who are the many others trying to explain? At this point, there's about 4 of us posting in this thread, lol.

Not talking about only this thread but others have explained the PS2 theory a million times.


Second, some PS2 limitations are ingrained into the game, the game cannot be changed in the fashion without reworking something deep in it. However, other limitations are entirely because they keep themselves tied the PS2.

Which is not ONLY PS2 limitations but also the game engine that was designed and used as well.


It's like having 3 men working for a moving company. One can competently carry 300 lbs (pc), another 200, and the last guy (ps2) can only carry 80lbs. The boxes that the company uses can't hold more than 180 lbs (analogous to hardcoded limitations that are now too difficult/expensive to change), but the company says that they don't want more than 80 lbs loaded in the boxes.

Ugh no, getting rid of the 80 pounds guy only matters if it didnt mess up the guy with 300 pounds and 200 pounds. It doesn't matter if the 300 pound guy and the 200 pound guy can carry more than 80 pounds, if their environment is set to only carry 80 pounds regardless, there's nothing that can be done unless you change the environment which is the Game Engine used to create FFXI is an old game engine.

The additional 100 pounds from your example was only meant to be headroom. To prevent accidents from happening. And usually its never a good idea to abuse this headroom due to other factors.


Where we're at is that se is limiting themselves to what the smallest guy can carry. They could fire him, and be more effective with the two men. Neither of the other 2 would have the problems the little guy had, and the company could be a lot more effective.

Again its not only about PS2 limitations. The game engine used to create FFXI is outdated as well. SE would have to create an entirely new game engine and recode every single expansion and the game itself using a new and better engine in order to exceed the 80 pound guy limit.

It's like telling the guy using Basic to code the game that requires C++. You can't go beyond the limitations of basic unless you drop basic code and recode everything into C++.

That would be like saying just drop PS2 and Xbox and use Ps4 technology instead. All because PS4 can carry 2,000 pounds.

If you are a PC or PS4 player, then FFXI would be like playing PSone game on those platforms. Just because you can play on higher platform doesn't mean the limit can reach up to those platform statistics. It only means your platforms are beyond the minimum requirement as in you have a simple game on an overpowered system. But you are expecting them to change the game because you think it can be altered beyond PSone limits by dropping that platform.

There maybe a little headroom left in the game engine to push beyond PS2 limits if they did drop PS2 but again I highly doubt its enough to allow the DEVs to push higher than what they are already trying to do now.

FFXIV can be altered to run on PS4 in the future because the game engine used, and the amount of leadway Developers have with today's technology allows them to do it easily without having to recode the entire game.

Meaning they have the ability to just add on to the current technology.

Unlike 11, the technology is very old and these options were not available during that time. Which at that time was a one time deal engine. With no options to add on.

This is one of the reasons why FF7 was never recreated. Because the Devs stated to recode and do the entire game all over again with current technology would take a very long time.

http://www.techdigest.tv/2010/02/final_fantasy_x_1.html

Then there is the obstacle of changing the game with updated graphics, etc.

YK: IF it were possible that we had all the right facilities and the right environment to be able to make and prepare a Final Fantasy VII remake within a year, we'd very much like a go at it! But even Final Fantasy XIII has taken over three and a half years to create. If we were to recreate final Fantasy VII with the same level of graphical detail as you see in Final Fantasy XIII, we'd imagine that that would take as much as three or four times longer than the three and a half years it has taken to put this Final Fantasy together! So it's looking pretty unrealistic! But if any such situation came about by any remote chance, then yes, we'd do it!

Then there is the question of, is it really worth dropping the entire PS2 fanbase all for the convenience of making minor adjustments such as inventory space? Are you willing to shun the entire PS2 platform and go through the hassle of disappointing all PS2 owners for this? How much money would you lose, invest for such a change?

If you can't see the bigger picture I've been trying to explain then I dunno what else to say.

[OmnysValefor]

You are not understanding.

I'll put it in just a few words: Some of the "PS2 limitations" are only because SE thinks it's unfair for PC users to have an advantage over PS2 users.

Some of the things, the game is capable of doing and the PS2 is the only reason it doesn't, I believe additional auction house slots is one, for some reason, but another that I remember them specifically citing the PS2 was more than one chatlog (which is supposedly in the new UI now, I can't find it though).

The thing we don't know, in support of either argument, is how many people are still playing on the PS2, and the thing noone knows is how many of those people would be willing to upgrade. Yet another topic that SE *could* poll us on, they just don't.

Other features that have been requested, that are famous in the illegal addons, like showing the cooldown of things on screen, are there.

Another example is the TP tracking addon. The only reason that works is because the game broadcasts alliance members' tp to every client. Why? No earthly idea. It's likely that they tried to implement that into the UI and felt that it was too much somehow.

More macro space? It's not a game limitation that causes us not to have that. It is the little flat black box that the flintstones invented.

PC's can barely handing the rendering of hundreds of characters within the game (now see, that's a game limitation and not really a ps2 limitation), Xboxes do worse, and PS2s are at the point they blackscreen in voidwatch which is *only* 18 people. PS2 hasn't been able to render Grauberg well for years. Yeah... It's time to let that go.


PS2 is the toe tag, a cancer that is slowly eating away at the game, but there is hope. This malignant tumor is easily removed through modern science leaving room to heal and even promote new growth. We need not simply lie back and accept our fate. We can fight this. Together we are stronger then this malady, this affliction that has befallen what we all hold dear. Together. We can all see a brighter tomorrow.

[Daemon]

Some of the "PS2 limitations" are only because SE thinks it's unfair for PC users to have an advantage over PS2 users.

Some of the things, the game is capable of doing and the PS2 is the only reason it doesn't, I believe additional auction house slots is one, for some reason, but another that I remember them specifically citing the PS2 was more than one chatlog (which is supposedly in the new UI now, I can't find it though).

The thing we don't know, in support of either argument, is how many people are still playing on the PS2, and the thing noone knows is how many of those people would be willing to upgrade. Yet another topic that SE *could* poll us on, they just don't.

Other features that have been requested, that are famous in the illegal addons, like showing the cooldown of things on screen, are there.

Another example is the TP tracking addon. The only reason that works is because the game broadcasts alliance members' tp to every client. Why? No earthly idea. It's likely that they tried to implement that into the UI and felt that it was too much somehow.

More macro space? It's not a game limitation that causes us not to have that. It is the little flat black box that the flintstones invented.

PC's can barely handing the rendering of hundreds of characters within the game (now see, that's a game limitation and not really a ps2 limitation), Xboxes do worse, and PS2s are at the point they blackscreen in voidwatch which is *only* 18 people. PS2 hasn't been able to render Grauberg well for years. Yeah... It's time to let that go.

Ok first off I don't think Macros can be altered to be better than they are now. I've already seen DEV team try to do this a long time ago and shutdown for emergency maintenance because macros were not properly appearing in the window etc. and that's why we only have so many lines in 1 macro.

I don't know what the drama was about. But I remember something happened before because I was there when it happened.

Another thing I remember a long time ago, the DEV team had problems altering TP. Something about too many players on the map or engaging the same monster at the same time was causing issues.

When FFXI was released. It was intended to be PS2 game not strictly PC. Better yet let me say Final fantasy games in general were focused to be console games as first priority.

If consoles never existed then it would make everyone's life easy but the way Japan is, they promote consoles and games like NA promotes Movies.

When I went to Japan in 1999, I was there when PS2 and Final Fantasy 9 launched. I bought both PS2 and FF9 while I was there.

They had huge billboards, adds popping up on the video screen at convenient stores, TV commercials, and In Subway stations, beautiful walls of billboard size promotions of FF9.

I never ever seen any country in the world promote games like Japan does. It's so big in Japan that it gives you a very different experience and point of view of how gaming is.

In others words, JPs love their video games at heart. And if you go to Japan and experience this, I've never seen any country or anyone in the world have such a passion for games like Japan.

Even I'm Korean, and our country known for being the expert of games like Starcraft, Diablo etc does not promote games like JPs. Meaning we are hardcore gamers too. I believe it was our country to beat the entire Diablo III game first a few hours after release.

Also cultural difference is that in Japan kids don't play games. Most of the player base that does are men age 30+.

Kids are strictly forbidden as they don't want their children to lose focus of their school.

I also saw a massive huge line of business men standing waiting on the day PS2 launched. Same as if you go see a michael jackson concert line. I ended up buying my console from the black market.

I was a chocked because I didn't see any teenagers, kids or women in that line but a perfect line of suit & tie men only lol.

Most likely killing off support for PS2 is like saying we don't want the game to be for PS2 anymore. Which is also not something I see the DEV Team or SE doing because til this very day FFXI was meant to be for PS2, not Xbox nor PC.

And even though times are changing. That's why FFXIV seems to made for the current generation consoles and I just don't see FFXI going beyond what its already made for.

[OmnysValefor]

Ok first off I don't think Macros can be altered to be better than they are now. I've already seen DEV team try to do this a long time ago and shutdown for emergency maintenance because macros were not properly appearing in the window etc. and that's why we only have so many lines in 1 macro.

On this, barring PS2, they can be altered. It would take some work but they could write a program to automate the task of pulling all six lines out of a macro and collapse it into a multiline textbox. That box could hold many lines. They could either give us a program to download that did this client side, or force us to backup our macros, do the task server side, and then have us download them. It is not an exceedingly difficult task.


Another thing I remember a long time ago, the DEV team had problems altering TP. Something about too many players on the map or engaging the same monster at the same time was causing issues.

See, I'm not saying anything about altering TP, simply displaying it, much the same way HP is always displayed.

There's not a lot of room in that box to display tp, but even a green sword icon, for when a person cleared 100 TP, would be enough. Preferably with 2 swords for when they cleared 200 (Sekkanoki, so that you don't interrupt a SAM).



When I went to Japan in 1999, I was there when PS2 and Final Fantasy 9 launched. I bought both PS2 and FF9 while I was there.

They had huge billboards, adds popping up on the video screen at convenient stores, TV commercials, and In Subway stations, beautiful walls of billboard size promotions of FF9.

I never ever seen any country in the world promote games like Japan does. It's so big in Japan that it gives you a very different experience and point of view of how gaming is.

In others words, JPs love their video games at heart. And if you go to Japan and experience this, I've never seen any country or anyone in the world have such a passion for games like Japan.

Even I'm Korean, and our country known for being the expert of games like Starcraft, Diablo etc does not promote games like JPs.

Also cultural difference is that in Japan kids don't play games. Most of the player base that does are men ago 30+.

I also saw a massive huge line of business men standing in line on the day PS2 launched. I ended up buying my console from the black market.

I respect that.


Most likely killing off support for PS2 is like saying we don't want the game to be for PS2 anymore.

That's precisely what it is. It's more matter-of-fact to say "It is no longer practical to support the PS2 anymore. There is no "want", there is practicality.


Which is also not something I see the DEV Team of SE doing because til this very day FFXI was meant to be for PS2, not Xbox nor PC.

It is what it is and fewer players are on PS2 than the other systems (probably, I can't prove this though).

[Daemon]

On this, barring PS2, they can be altered. It would take some work but they could write a program to automate the task of pulling all six lines out of a macro and collapse it into a multiline textbox. That box could hold many lines. They could either give us a program to download that did this client side, or force us to backup our macros, do the task server side, and then have us download them. It is not an exceedingly difficult task.



See, I'm not saying anything about altering TP, simply displaying it, much the same way HP is always displayed.

There's not a lot of room in that box to display tp, but even a green sword icon, for when a person cleared 100 TP, would be enough. Preferably with 2 swords for when they cleared 200 (Sekkanoki, so that you don't interrupt a SAM).




I respect that.



That's precisely what it is. It's more matter-of-fact to say "It is no longer practical to support the PS2 anymore. There is no "want", there is practicality.



It is what it is and fewer players are on PS2 than the other systems (probably, I can't prove this though).

Well in reality, it is what it is. And it sux. That's why most of my arguments were based around that.

As for TP appearing, they implemented a system where you have to show your TP to others through macro or command.

It was part of the 6 man party setup. I guess they never altered it because its part of strategy.

Till this day even I still use it.

It's just today people are lazy and don't want to spam chat every second. And since the 6 man party setup has been dropped as the main, and now we have 18 main alliances as our everyday play, quick fights don't give us the ability to patiently pay attention when 18 people are chatting instead of communicating strategy.

Or have a million things spamming to make your chat log fly unless turning on every filter lol.

You have to look at it from how the game use to work 11 years ago. We had 6 people in group who spent hours a day together exping. Plenty of time, very slow pace that allowed us to focus on team work.

And DDs would always spam chat with how much TP each player had during fights.

Maybe you can make a topic and suggest that to the DEV team.

I guess because I'm old school who loved the old FFXI, I still setup Skillchains and play the old way when I'm in small groups or duoing with others.

Also do it all time when breaking trial weapons or Unlocking Mythic WS.

As for Macros, trust me if I was a multi billionaire I would donate money to SE by hiring developers and pay them to fix macros that's how bad it is. Even if I had to donate the last dollar.

But this also why I went over all that discussion on game development and how reaching end game... Wait... When any game you play, the higher level you reach, the more a player uses resources and require so many things.

I think many things in game such as macros were never intended to be based around today's level.

When it was implemented, cap was not 99. We did not have content required for players to carry massive amounts of gear, gear sets, skills, abilities. And now as the demand for bigger and better things increase, it seems we are reaching the max that DEV Team can do.

And I think Matsui is struggling to make things happen so he has to find ways to work around all these limits for end game players reaching the inevitable question.

[Daemon]

I have some progress to share with you about the requests for incorporating the Porter Moogle feature into your Mog Houses, as I mentioned in a post a bit back.

Currently, as we are unable to address the moogle inside of Mog Houses, we’ve placed a Porter Moogle inside of it instead. It’ll be very similar to how your Mog House looks on the Test Server.

It's sad because its comments like these that I'm watching and see how Matsui is struggling. He wants to make things better but he can't so he has to work around the limits preventing him from doing what he wants.

This should tell people that he is trying to address inventory issues. He knows the problem. But what can he do? It is what it is..

I see so many people complain its not good enough, but because I'm paying attention to his comments, it is the reason why I've stopped complaining and started understanding what he is dealing with.

And all I'm trying to do now is be supportive.

You guys may think I'm cheerleading on the side but I just think you can't hound someone to do more than what they are already doing for us.

Even I tried to explain how obstacles prevent DEVs from doing things, and most won't listen or agree. Imagine if Matsui and the community reps tried to sit all day and explain it to you. Then they'd be going back and forth at the community wasting so much time debating rather than making points understood.

And I'm pretty sure many people will tell him how they think he should do the job better.

So this is also why I understand when DEVs and Community reps give us quick simple responses. It's not that they are ignoring anyone. It's just going to turn out into a hounding war over asking Matsui why he can't do this, do that, or why reps never respond, situation.

Sometimes its just best to give a general response to everyone and keep it simple so they don't have to reply to every single comment and question. Because all I see is that would keep Devs and reps on the forums all day than spend that precious time doing the real work.

[FrankReynolds]

It's sad because its comments like these that I'm watching and see how Matsui is struggling. He wants to make things better but he can't so he has to work around the limits preventing him from doing what he wants.

This should tell people that he is trying to address inventory issues. He knows the problem. But what can he do? It is what it is..

It's crap like this. He's delaying something that would add convenience for almost every player in the game because it would be aesthetically displeasing for a couple of people. It sounds like complete BS as well, because as far as I know, very few if any players have ever made the argument that having another moogle in the MH would be a major issue for them.

What's more, the whole thing is stupid in the greater context of the inventory issue as a whole. He shouldn't have even been working on porter moogles / slips to begin with. He just refreshed almost all the gear that people use. He should have been planning that in a way that relieved the need to use porter moogles and working on a far more robust storage solution to replace porter moogles in the first place.

That kind of poor planning and prioritizing has nothing to do with PS2 or game engines. It's entirely on the individual(s) who do it.

When the car has 4 thread bare tires, you don't sit around trying to figure out how to make the spare look better. You work on getting 4 new tires.


You guys may think I'm cheerleading on the side but I just think you can't hound someone to do more than what they are already doing for us.

You are cheer leading. This event isn't broken because of PS2 limitations or lack of resources or bad game engines. It's broken because they built it that way.


Even I tried to explain how obstacles prevent DEVs from doing things, and most won't listen or agree. Imagine if Matsui and the community reps tried to sit all day and explain it to you. Then they'd be going back and forth at the community wasting so much time debating rather than making points understood.

There is nothing to debate for them. They made something that people don't like as much as they think we should. You can't convince people to like something. They have to come to that conclusion on their own. You either make what they like or you don't. Trust me. I ran a restaurant for many years. You make a menu that sings the virtues of Quinoa and kale salad for an entire page, but that dry aged New York and mash potatoes are always gonna out sell it because people don't care what you say. They care what they like.


And I'm pretty sure many people will tell him how they think he should do the job better.

That's technically what this site is about. People come on here to say what they want changed. If you pay attention, people have named numerous things that they like in the course of trying to explain what they don't like. Just because they didn't dedicate a thread to that stuff doesn't mean that it wasn't conveyed. Even if they had made those threads, that's not what this thread is about and making them wouldn't get this fixed. You can't get them to add more storage by telling them how awesome chocbo racing is. You won't get better drops in VW by telling them that you love campaign battles. They aren't psychic.


So this is also why I understand when DEVs and Community reps give us quick simple responses. It's not that they are ignoring anyone. It's just going to turn out into a hounding war over asking Matsui why he can't do this, do that, or why reps never respond, situation.

Sometimes its just best to give a general response to everyone and keep it simple so they don't have to reply to every single comment and question. Because all I see is that would keep Devs and reps on the forums all day than spend that precious time doing the real work.

There's a grand canyon sized gap between what you are talking about and the level of rapport that we currently have. There's plenty of room in it to respond before we get to the point where they are wasting time.

[Daemon]

Ugh Frank, they had no choice but to build it that way. Technology that's 11 years old meaning before 2001 the tools that were available are not the same as now. And I'm sure its a few years before that FFXI was in the works. So in the late 90's.

Your argument doesn't work in the sense that if you remove level 99 caps, several items abilities, spells, and several expansions. Back when 80 inventory was enough, no moogle slips etc.

Less content, lower levels, less requirements, then the game was fine.

Its now in 2013 a never ending game where the fanbase wants more power, more content, more items that's over flooding and reaching the limits that they are at a point where they have to work around limits.

Game engines back then were not designed to allow DEVs to add upgrades like game engines allow today.

Otherwise Sony could have released an upgraded version of PS2 that would allow game developers to expand their games and allow more than what's limited. But then the game engine that's used has to be able to have the power to surpass that limit.

If you only have 1 bedroom, as you add more things in your room, no matter where you put them, you can only add so much, and to conserve space the only thing you can do is move around your stuff from one side or the other, or use the space reaching up to the ceiling, and even though you want to add more, you can't because your living in a room that cannot be expanded, that's your limit.

And that's how I see the issue with pushing the limits to what the Devs want to do but can't so they have to work around those limits such as adding another moogle inside Mog house rather than add the feature onto the moogle you already have.

Call it poor design all you want. If you want more power, more items, more levels, more abilities, spells, then the worse the design will get.

As for wanting change, when you are analyzing the results of an effect over time, priorities alter constantly.

Because most of the community surpassed all other content and reached end game, making decisions to alter the game have huge gaps.

For instance, not enough players to level with each other through lower level content, therefore DEVs had to speed up the leveling process so those who are new could catch up to those who are ilvl 120+ which is a very huge gap. But at the cost of making all level 1-99 gear in AH and content irrelevant.

Most decisions are based on where the majority of players are at.

That's why DEV team then have to fill in gaps between those who are 99 and those who are ilvl 120+ after since they already corrected the issue of new and low level players leveling issues with things like GOV and Abyssea allowing anyone to level to 99 in half a day. Well more like 8-12 hours now.

Always expect when a good change is implemented, there's a catch.

The further the level advancement in any game, the harder it gets due to needing much more content, much more attention to keep you interested which requires much more resources.

[Calatilla]

It is what it is and fewer players are on PS2 than the other systems (probably, I can't prove this though)

From my understanding, a vast majority of the JP playerbase is on PS2, and they out number NA/EU by quite a bit. Dropping PS2 support entirely would alienate their biggest playerbase, and they`re not going to do that.

[OmnysValefor]

It might Cal, it might not.

I know that the Japanese have a soft spot for Playstation, but also, I'm sure that it must be frustrating to play a game on a system that frequently locks up or blackscreens. SE's not even making the effort to find out how practical the migration could be.

The Japanese love this game to, so say "Hey, the best thing we can do for this game is to move past the PS2, would you be willing to upgrade?" and find out.

Maybe this year's census will have some data on the stats of who is playing on what.

[Demon6324236]

It would be nice if that were included so we can see just how many people would really be possibly effected by it.

[FrankReynolds]

Ugh Frank, they had no choice but to build it that way. Technology that's 11 years old meaning before 2001 the tools that were available are not the same as now. And I'm sure its a few years before that FFXI was in the works. So in the late 90's.

Your argument doesn't work in the sense that if you remove level 99 caps, several items abilities, spells, and several expansions. Back when 80 inventory was enough, no moogle slips etc.

Less content, lower levels, less requirements, then the game was fine.

Its now in 2013 a never ending game where the fanbase wants more power, more content, more items that's over flooding and reaching the limits that they are at a point where they have to work around limits.

Game engines back then were not designed to allow DEVs to add upgrades like game engines allow today.

Otherwise Sony could have released an upgraded version of PS2 that would allow game developers to expand their games and allow more than what's limited. But then the game engine that's used has to be able to have the power to surpass that limit.

If you only have 1 bedroom, as you add more things in your room, no matter where you put them, you can only add so much, and to conserve space the only thing you can do is move around your stuff from one side or the other, or use the space reaching up to the ceiling, and even though you want to add more, you can't because your living in a room that cannot be expanded, that's your limit.

And that's how I see the issue with pushing the limits to what the Devs want to do but can't so they have to work around those limits such as adding another moogle inside Mog house rather than add the feature onto the moogle you already have.

Call it poor design all you want. If you want more power, more items, more levels, more abilities, spells, then the worse the design will get.

They are bad design. PS2 doesn't force them to make monsters that one shot people or events that require hundreds of people or drop rates that suck ass. None of the things that are wrong with WKR have anything to do with PS2 limits.

Inventory issues are again, not a result of PS2 limitations. They are a result of developers who choose to blindly throw stats on equipment with absolutely no consideration for how they will be used or how they affect inventory.

They have have an ass backward attitude that leads them to believe that having to choose to drop one item or another is a fun and interesting aspect of the game, when in fact, it is annoying and detrimental to player, the game and the company as a result.

At best, it is lazy and / or negligent planning. At worst, it is just straight up sadistic.

Any intelligent software developer knows that the more new and interesting ways that your customers come up with to do things with your software, the better your chances are of success. Trying to force people to only use your software (or play it) one specific way is a foolish endeavor.

If you make a letter opener and customers start using it as a chef knife because it happens to work great for that, you don't put spikes on the handle that cut the user any time they apply more pressure than is required for opening mail. You try to make it into an even better chef knife.


As for wanting change, when you are analyzing the results of an effect over time, priorities alter constantly.

Because most of the community surpassed all other content and reached end game, making decisions to alter the game have huge gaps.

For instance, not enough players to level with each other through lower level content, therefore DEVs had to speed up the leveling process so those who are new could catch up to those who are ilvl 120+ which is a very huge gap. But at the cost of making all level 1-99 gear in AH and content irrelevant.

Nobody asked to be level 120... At least not on the English forums. And iLevel is stupid. Straight up bad. An awful idea. Period.


Most decisions are based on where the majority of players are at.

The majority of players are on other games. The majority of the ones still here are standing around doing nothing. Gear is replaced more often than ever, making anything that takes any effort / time into a waste of effort / time. Even if you decide to waste the effort, where do you put it? Devs say you should decide what you want to carry, because choices are fun... Broken logic. Crazy people use this sort of logic. Even my dog would rather stuff two tennis balls in his mouth than throw one away.


That's why DEV team then have to fill in gaps between those who are 99 and those who are ilvl 120+ after since they already corrected the issue of new and low level players leveling issues with things like GOV and Abyssea allowing anyone to level to 99 in half a day. Well more like 8-12 hours now.

Devs created that gap in the first place. No one was expecting to gain twenty levels in 45 minutes. They just wanted some new, slightly more powerful gear to go after.


Always expect when a good change is implemented, there's a catch.

More broken Dev logic. There doesn't need to be a yin/yang to every change. Everything in moderation. It's okay to just make good things. Every cookie doesn't have to have glass in it. Every horse doesn't have to buck the rider. Every pair of underwear doesn't have to be made of burlap. Sometimes, things can just be good. Most times actually. I don't want a game to hate me.


The further the level advancement in any game, the harder it gets due to needing much more content, much more attention to keep you interested which requires much more resources.

It's actually a lot easier to make / balance content for one level / power level. They made their own job almost impossible by creating a huge gap in character level / power for no real reason at all.

[Demon6324236]

Most decisions are based on where the majority of players are at.The majority of players are on other games.That explains a few things...

No really though, I got a good kick out of reading that.

[OmnysValefor]

They are bad design. PS2 doesn't force them to make monsters that one shot people or events that require hundreds of people or drop rates that suck ass. None of the things that are wrong with WKR have anything to do with PS2 limits.

I've tried to say precisely this so many times.

Like Demon, I also got a good laugh out of "The majority of players are on other games.".

It took me a second, but I realized you're not even being a smart***, the majority of the people who were really invested into XI at some point are now playing other games and not always because those games are better than what FFXI was.

[Daemon]

I've tried to say precisely this so many times.

Like Demon, I also got a good laugh out of "The majority of players are on other games.".

It took me a second, but I realized you're not even being a smart***, the majority of the people who were really invested into XI at some point are now playing other games and not always because those games are better than what FFXI was.

Well yeah, at this point end game it only takes a week to be fed up with the new content. After playing a game like this for so long, compare us to someone with a PHD or Doctorate, in a sense that we don't need to spend endless months to know what the event is and how it works.

Meaning I don't need to play Hurkan and Yumcax 5+ times anymore to know how the DEVs implemented it. Same rollercoaster, same mechanics, just different turns, swirls, loops.

All bosses have the same objective, drop conditions, its easy but require you to kill it 10 billion times, or harder and long in fight to get a good drop but what people don't see is that the adjustment was probably made the same as both examples.

Regardless which way they implement both events, it will require you to put in the same amount of time each. So even if you do kill Qilin 10 billion times, doing Hurkan 100 times will both come out to "you might get the item in 1 week or 1 year or more."

Its like how Rubicund cells in VW was most likely a placebo to accomplish 2 things.. Give you motivation and hope of possibly getting a good drop, but most likely it was fake with the intention of deflating the economy and deflating the amount of cruor everyone had...

[Daemon]

They are bad design. PS2 doesn't force them to make monsters that one shot people or events that require hundreds of people or drop rates that suck ass. None of the things that are wrong with WKR have anything to do with PS2 limits.

Inventory issues are again, not a result of PS2 limitations. They are a result of developers who choose to blindly throw stats on equipment with absolutely no consideration for how they will be used or how they affect inventory.

They have have an ass backward attitude that leads them to believe that having to choose to drop one item or another is a fun and interesting aspect of the game, when in fact, it is annoying and detrimental to player, the game and the company as a result.

At best, it is lazy and / or negligent planning. At worst, it is just straight up sadistic.

Any intelligent software developer knows that the more new and interesting ways that your customers come up with to do things with your software, the better your chances are of success. Trying to force people to only use your software (or play it) one specific way is a foolish endeavor.

If you make a letter opener and customers start using it as a chef knife because it happens to work great for that, you don't put spikes on the handle that cut the user any time they apply more pressure than is required for opening mail. You try to make it into an even better chef knife.



Nobody asked to be level 120... At least not on the English forums. And iLevel is stupid. Straight up bad. An awful idea. Period.



The majority of players are on other games. The majority of the ones still here are standing around doing nothing. Gear is replaced more often than ever, making anything that takes any effort / time into a waste of effort / time. Even if you decide to waste the effort, where do you put it? Devs say you should decide what you want to carry, because choices are fun... Broken logic. Crazy people use this sort of logic. Even my dog would rather stuff two tennis balls in his mouth than throw one away.



Devs created that gap in the first place. No one was expecting to gain twenty levels in 45 minutes. They just wanted some new, slightly more powerful gear to go after.



More broken Dev logic. There doesn't need to be a yin/yang to every change. Everything in moderation. It's okay to just make good things. Every cookie doesn't have to have glass in it. Every horse doesn't have to buck the rider. Every pair of underwear doesn't have to be made of burlap. Sometimes, things can just be good. Most times actually. I don't want a game to hate me.



It's actually a lot easier to make / balance content for one level / power level. They made their own job almost impossible by creating a huge gap in character level / power for no real reason at all.

The majority of other games don't require players to use gear for specific abilities, spells. That's why everyone has to carry so much equipment.

Other games don't require macros for gear swaps or the need to have zillion pieces of gear to WS, or accurately accomplish a single task or land a spell.

The majority of other games don't give you sub jobs, where you also use gears to enhance your Subjob abilities.

And most games don't give half of the detail options of enhancing your character.

Other games use color and fashionable items to make a character look different. FFXI offers items to make you stand out in power from the rest, not by how you look.

Long difficult time consuming quests, missions, boss fights that drop powerful items that give everyone a chance to enhance your character differently because not everyone has the drive, skill or time to obtain certain pieces allowing each player to have different types of gear even if its a momentary thing, at least your accomplishment will make you different that everyone else's accomplishment.

Unless you want to have the same exact power as everyone else using temp gear that everyone else can get easily only to toss it out for the next tier that everyone else can get.

Most games make you choose or toss gear like crap items. And rares in most games are for fashion.

As I said before, the power you gain from items were suppose to be power gained through level achievement. However the way DEV TEAM's direction, they prevent everyone from being able to solo mass kill everything in game and forever want players to party together to achieve goals.

And making us powerless so much to the point that we depend on 18-250 people to do things, this is why limits are reached.

Again, unless SE changes the entire game according to convenience, then FFXI wouldn't be FFXI.

It would be like the majority of other games.

At some point water will reach the top of the glass.

I know I read an article written a long time ago that party play was always part of Final Fantasy games and that the DEVs did not want to break that tradition.

Just we are coming to the point that as more people are quiting, DEV Team is implementing items that are easier or less time consuming to get to keep up with todays standard MMORPG.

People today have more options than years ago and don't have patience to play just 1 game.

And most people today just want instant gratification and quick results. We live in a time where people have much more ways to be entertained than waste hours upon hours just to do stuff.

While it takes hours to get a party and do 1 boss at end game. Other games offer players to do 10 billion things in a couple of hours. And because people are getting use to that type of play, everyone is losing patience to stick around and do what FFXI offers.

If you don't like the ilvl stuff, DEV team could have left us all at level 99. With level 99 content.

If you are level 99, obviously you wouldn't go back and play level 30 content. If the majority of players are level 99, then how do avoid the gap of all the new players or whoever is 1-30?

If SE never implemented Abyssea, FC and level to 99 in 8 hours. How are those people going to catch up if the majority is past all of that?

Obviously not many people are going to raise their hand and go back and help those lower levels, otherwise I'd see people helping all the time rather than complaint no one cares and no one helps others.

Then again to fill that gap, DEV team sped up the leveling process to allow everyone to level to 99 in 8 hours.

Because of that.

Cost of convenience just made all auction house, NPC gear from 1-98 irrelevant.

Development gets hard when players reach higher level. All programmers absolutely discuss this issue and learn this.

They have to always keep focus on where the majority is at.

If the majority of players were level 30, obviously they are not going to focus on level 99 content.

On top of that they have to focus on level ranges close to each other say level 80-99. Not 30-99. It just doesn't work that way. And the further in time the game is around, this rule applies even more.

Meaning small changes can tilt the game off balance bigger as level ranges become higher and higher.

To the DEV team I'm sure Delve was meant to be the last tier of SoA. People skipped part of the tier design and that tipped the balance of the game way off. To us it was a big effect. To them it probably was a small detail that wasn't meant to be a big crash. But a mistake made it that way which is how big of difference this mistakes can be seen at higher levels.

Imagine if the content was level 10 and everyone skipped to level 20 instead. Not much of a big difference and not much of a big gap.

That's how hard development becomes as levels are increased.

No game developer is going to linger on to old content if the majority is past it doing bigger things.

And as levels get higher, gaps become wider and yeah it sux that people get left out but unless SE invested millions more and hired an army of developers to focus on every part of the game.

Why do it if there's not enough new players to join and fill in all those areas and populate it if there's no crowd?

Then again if there's not a lot of people on the servers why direct part of the crowd away from SoA if its only going to kill SoA content? Then you will never find enough people to do WR.

[Luscia]

I am getting really sick of the WK rewards for your efforts. I only have 2 items from Hurkan and I keep getting the same ones over and over with a crap synth item as a chaser. It's not worth the exp loss or bayld to even try to get a decent drop at all. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/soraevens/MoreWKCrap_zps6ad96d5e.png

At least half of my ally got the same thing; nothing. And we mainly consisted of the tank pt and support for them. It's crap like this that turns people off real quick SE, so for the love of Altana do something about it -.-

[Daemon]

I am getting really sick of the WK rewards for your efforts. I only have 2 items from Hurkan and I keep getting the same ones over and over with a crap synth item as a chaser. It's not worth the exp loss or bayld to even try to get a decent drop at all. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/soraevens/MoreWKCrap_zps6ad96d5e.png

At least half of my ally got the same thing; nothing. And we mainly consisted of the tank pt and support for them. It's crap like this that turns people off real quick SE, so for the love of Altana do something about it -.-

SoA still seems incomplete. I mean it needs more to be considered a full expansion at the majority of players current level. Higher levels have bigger demands and obviously what's out is not enough. But then again the amount of work to please us at this level would require at least 3-5 older content expansions worth to achieve satisfaction.

If we were lower level say 75 then the amount of content SoA provides now would have been enough.

But then we don't have enough people on every server and they don't have the team for that. So what we got is what we got.

I just think people who play every single day several hours are the ones who expect way more. And the ones who don't play as much is enough.

I know when I stopped logging in everyday and now only play once in a while, I'm not complaining.

And when the DEV team finally stops implementing on to SoA. People will eventually realize, this is it. This is all that SoA has to offer and might slow down to do whats available rather than speed through everything and expect more.

[OmnysValefor]

Dude, you're wrong.

Accept it.

The event requires way more effort than the reward considering the high probability of nothing at all.

It doesn't matter how much or how little content SoA has, the event is still badly designed, and is most-literally, self-defeating.

[Daemon]

Dude, you're wrong.

Accept it.

The event requires way more effort than the reward considering the high probability of nothing at all.

It doesn't matter how much or how little content SoA has, the event is still badly designed, and is most-literally, self-defeating.

Well yeah but are we looking at a finished SoA?

[Umichi]

I still think it's just because you guys are slacking off in WK... perhaps system can detect if you are dual boxing :p a pretty interesting way to make it a detrrent as we all know SE doesn't fullymsupport dual boxing :)

[Rekin]

Well yeah but are we looking at a finished SoA?

One does not rate a product by the versions that come after it, one should rate it as it is given.

That being said SoA as a whole seems rather haphazard in long term planning.

[Kylos]

Well ... after spending a few hours of my time doing Hurkan for the third time (getting bullet and grip first two times), and spending 65k bayld on a pop, I was granted the ultimate of gifts. It was ... part iron ... part sand ... could it be!???

IRON SAND!!!

Woot, I feel so accomplished. Thank you SE for wasting my time once again, absolutely love it. I don't care that I didn't get a Scythe, Axe, Hat or Boots from this, because the Iron Sand will keep me happy for a long time.

I have had so much fun today, I don't think I can bring myself to go back until Wildskeepers are changed, otherwise I may have some kind of overload! I just can't understand why people are doing these reives less and less nowadays despite the huge colonization rates! You got to be crazy not to want some Iron Sand!

[FrankReynolds]

The majority of other games don't require players to use gear for specific abilities, spells. That's why everyone has to carry so much equipment.

Other games don't require macros for gear swaps or the need to have zillion pieces of gear to WS, or accurately accomplish a single task or land a spell.

The majority of other games don't give you sub jobs, where you also use gears to enhance your Subjob abilities.

This one does though... Because it was made that way. They may not have intended for us to swap out so much gear in the beginning, but they have certainly encouraged it over the last ten years. They had plenty of opportunity to make gear and items that were sufficiently powerful in their respective slots as to negate the need for swaps. They chose not to. PS2 didn't do that. They did.

I agree with their decision to make gear swaps a part of the game. It adds complexity and makes the game more dynamic. I don't agree with their decision to keep an incredibly crappy macro system in light of vastly superior third party tools or their decision to make so much gear of varying use that it taxed out the inventory system.

I especially don't agree with the way the do updates in the wrong order. If they plan on adding something that will tax inventory, they should update inventory first. When given the option, they put the horse before the carriage every time.


And most games don't give half of the detail options of enhancing your character.

Okay, well customization that annoys the customer isn't really of much benefit.


Other games use color and fashionable items to make a character look different. FFXI offers items to make you stand out in power from the rest, not by how you look.

Which is fine in moderation. It's when specific pieces of gear become a requirement for further participation and said pieces of gear require help from other people in order to obtain them, that things begin to fall apart.


Long difficult time consuming quests, missions, boss fights that drop powerful items that give everyone a chance to enhance your character differently because not everyone has the drive, skill or time to obtain certain pieces allowing each player to have different types of gear even if its a momentary thing, at least your accomplishment will make you different that everyone else's accomplishment.

I could pretend to be all altruistic and say that I bought a Lexus because I wanted to differentiate myself and show my drive and skill (time is not a virtue, it's commodity), but I think you know that's BS. I want to have the luxury and I want people to see me as someone who is better than them (also, chicks dig it).

People who are interested in the challenge will do it no matter what the reward is.

People who want something that shows their skill and prowess will do it just to have a shiny trinket that proves that. Even if it doesn't really make any substantial difference in their life (like trading in my Hyundai for a Lexus).

The rest of us (the vast majority) will do it because the gear is better than what we had, it makes other things easier and it gives us a sense of superiority.

These things don't really need to be connected. If you look at the vast majority of games out there, you will find that most in game achievements give nothing more than a medal, or a new skin for your character or an gamer rank point. They don't have to make the gear so powerful that you cannot complete certain events without it. They don't even have to make gear that comes from these events vastly superior. It just has to be a little better than the last thing. Look at afterglows. They provide no direct bonus to the user, but you know damn well that if you had the time and money, you would get them all just because.


Unless you want to have the same exact power as everyone else using temp gear that everyone else can get easily only to toss it out for the next tier that everyone else can get.

It's fine to have gear that is different enough to actually make a difference. It's bad to have gear that is so much more powerful that you can't play at a reasonable level without it. When you do that, you end up with a player base that only does one thing because all other events drop vastly inferior gear. That means that anyone who doesn't like or can't do that one thing, has no reason to stick around. You do that enough times and there is no one left.


Most games make you choose or toss gear like crap items. And rares in most games are for fashion.

Most rares in this game are for fashion because they have been rendered completely inadequate by far more powerful gear and far more taxing events. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.


As I said before, the power you gain from items were suppose to be power gained through level achievement. However the way DEV TEAM's direction, they prevent everyone from being able to solo mass kill everything in game and forever want players to party together to achieve goals.

The game hasn't been like that for a long time. Any time you make something so strong as to be required (whether this is due to actual game limitations or those imposed by consensus of the player base), you create a market for it. When people have things that other people need, they sell them. They don't give them away. When people make things to sell, that removes them from the pool of people that can be teamed up with. When the pool of viable team mates shrinks, the market for the selling get's larger. The more powerful the item and the harder the event, the faster this happens and the more the harder it gets for people at the bottom.


Again, unless SE changes the entire game according to convenience, then FFXI wouldn't be FFXI.

It would be like the majority of other games.

At some point water will reach the top of the glass.

I know I read an article written a long time ago that party play was always part of Final Fantasy games and that the DEVs did not want to break that tradition.

Just we are coming to the point that as more people are quiting, DEV Team is implementing items that are easier or less time consuming to get to keep up with todays standard MMORPG.

People today have more options than years ago and don't have patience to play just 1 game.

And most people today just want instant gratification and quick results. We live in a time where people have much more ways to be entertained than waste hours upon hours just to do stuff.

You have to make events for the population you have. The game won't grow by word of mouth. They have to advertise and promote if they want growth. Trust me. I manage an IT department. I support hundreds of phones. No one listens to my advice when they buy a phone. They buy whatever is popular on TV and the net. Word of mouth won't cut it and building events for hundreds of people won't make hundreds of people come play your game. This is not field of dreams.

They had a population large enough to support big events. They no longer do. Besieged worked because it was 10 seconds away from where all the bored people were standing and it didn't cost anything to participate. That is not the case with WKR.


While it takes hours to get a party and do 1 boss at end game. Other games offer players to do 10 billion things in a couple of hours. And because people are getting use to that type of play, everyone is losing patience to stick around and do what FFXI offers.

If you don't like the ilvl stuff, DEV team could have left us all at level 99. With level 99 content.

If the monsters are gonna smash us just the same, I don't really see the difference. Ilevel didn't add any new abilities. It didn't change how I play my jobs. It just added stats. They could have just added stats without gear. People could have continued to obtain gear at their own pace. Instead we have "Get everything now or be level 99 forever because no one is doing that event any more".


If you are level 99, obviously you wouldn't go back and play level 30 content. If the majority of players are level 99, then how do avoid the gap of all the new players or whoever is 1-30?

They fixed that by making leveling fairly painless, then they broke it again by adding iLevel gear.


If SE never implemented Abyssea, FC and level to 99 in 8 hours. How are those people going to catch up if the majority is past all of that?

Again, they could have made exp far easier to obtain without raising the cap. They raised the cap in order to give transition us into more powerful abilities. They made leveling in abyssea so strong so that people would maintain interest in it beyond just killing the NMs. By making Cruor and gil items and time come from chests, they gave people who didn't need to level a reason to help people who did. They could have just made every monster outside abyssea give 2,000 exp, but they wanted to keep people in groups. It sorta worked... sorta...


Obviously not many people are going to raise their hand and go back and help those lower levels, otherwise I'd see people helping all the time rather than complaint no one cares and no one helps others.

The rewards for not helping people far outweigh the rewards for helping. When you only have two hours and you could spend it getting and item that gives you 2 more strength than you currently have in your ws build, it doesn't seem like a big sacrifice to help your friend instead. WHen the item you could be working on gives you 200 accuracy, 200 evasion, 200 parry skill, 150 more base damage and 60 strength, helping your friend becomes a major waste of time. Especially if it's a stranger and not a friend... and especially if you could be charging that stranger enormous amounts of money.


"exacerbation"


Then again to fill that gap, DEV team sped up the leveling process to allow everyone to level to 99 in 8 hours.

Because of that.

Cost of convenience just made all auction house, NPC gear from 1-98 irrelevant.

There wasn't much they could do to get people to max level quickly and still keep mid-level gear relevant. They could have made more level capped gear that was craftable at various levels to replace it though. Again, a lack of foresight.


If the majority of players were level 30, obviously they are not going to focus on level 99 content.

On top of that they have to focus on level ranges close to each other say level 80-99. Not 30-99. It just doesn't work that way. And the further in time the game is around, this rule applies even more.

Meaning small changes can tilt the game off balance bigger as level ranges become higher and higher.

To the DEV team I'm sure Delve was meant to be the last tier of SoA. People skipped part of the tier design and that tipped the balance of the game way off. To us it was a big effect. To them it probably was a small detail that wasn't meant to be a big crash. But a mistake made it that way which is how big of difference this mistakes can be seen at higher levels.

They recreated an older problem. They were having a hard time keeping every job relevant at end game and getting people to end game level in sufficient time, so they sped up leveling so that they didn't have to make every job relevant. People could just level multiple jobs. But then they made a lot of the jobs rely on hard to obtain items and they implemented caps on necessary weapon skills, thus limiting the number of jobs people could adequately play.

Then instead of learning from those mistakes, they made content that was tiered in a way that is not viable over the long term because as more and more people beat it, it gets harder and harder for those who have not. Essentially putting the greatest challenge on those who are least prepared to complete it.



That's how hard development becomes as levels are increased.

No game developer is going to linger on to old content if the majority is past it doing bigger things.

And as levels get higher, gaps become wider and yeah it sux that people get left out but unless SE invested millions more and hired an army of developers to focus on every part of the game.

Why do it if there's not enough new players to join and fill in all those areas and populate it if there's no crowd?

Then again if there's not a lot of people on the servers why direct part of the crowd away from SoA if its only going to kill SoA content? Then you will never find enough people to do WR.


Well, if they don't maintain areas that are vital to new players, then they have no reason to try and attract new players. If they don't want new players then they have to maintain the base they have. If they don't want to maintain the base they have, then it's pretty much circling the drain.

[OmnysValefor]

Well yeah but are we looking at a finished SoA?

By the time they finish Seekers of Adoulin, Final Fantasy XI will be finished.

[OmnysValefor]

I still think it's just because you guys are slacking off in WK... perhaps system can detect if you are dual boxing :p a pretty interesting way to make it a detrrent as we all know SE doesn't fullymsupport dual boxing :)

Do you even know what you're talking about?

I don't dualbox, I don't have a secondary character to dualbox anymore (I had one a few years ago).

I've gone to every WK as PLD and been fulltime-active on the boss, except one where I went as BLU because I was on BLU and the boss was at 25% so I rushed out.

[Vasch]

I still think it's just because you guys are slacking off in WK... perhaps system can detect if you are dual boxing :p a pretty interesting way to make it a detrrent as we all know SE doesn't fullymsupport dual boxing :)

I've shown up at 5% and gotten just one tick and got a weapon drop. I've maxed out bayld and participated the entire time and gotten nothing. Getting no drops is firmly related to rolling a drop you already have. I've always gotten an item during my first participation in a particular WK, regardless of when I got there and damage done.

[Demon6324236]

I still think it's just because you guys are slacking off in WK... perhaps system can detect if you are dual boxing :p a pretty interesting way to make it a detrrent as we all know SE doesn't fullymsupport dual boxing :)Actually, they do apparently support it, because otherwise it would not have been a noted feature in the new UI that we will be capable of having multiple game windows up at a single time.

Also, participation has nothing to do with it, at all...

[Daemon]

This one does though... Because it was made that way. They may not have intended for us to swap out so much gear in the beginning, but they have certainly encouraged it over the last ten years. They had plenty of opportunity to make gear and items that were sufficiently powerful in their respective slots as to negate the need for swaps. They chose not to. PS2 didn't do that. They did.

I agree with their decision to make gear swaps a part of the game. It adds complexity and makes the game more dynamic. I don't agree with their decision to keep an incredibly crappy macro system in light of vastly superior third party tools or their decision to make so much gear of varying use that it taxed out the inventory system.

I especially don't agree with the way the do updates in the wrong order. If they plan on adding something that will tax inventory, they should update inventory first. When given the option, they put the horse before the carriage every time.

You are looking at from your point of view. 3rd party tools prove that it can be done doesn't mean it can be done. I see a hand full of people using speed hacks. That doesn't mean everyone at the same time can have adjustments made that way. 3rd party tools prove macros can be extended. I've only seen a hand full of people talk about using such tools. Doesn't mean everyone on the same map, same group, same time can change 16 pieces of gear at once. This is why lags happen.


Okay, well customization that annoys the customer isn't really of much benefit.

All games use visuals and stats gear for customization for a reason. Look at Ragnarok online. They make rares based on fashion to make every character different in style. Which draws addiction to playing bosses and hunting rares. OMG!! Baphomet hat!!! Osiris crown!!! They make items that's more eye candy with certain stats.

Even use cards that drop from every monster which are at 0.1 drop rate to allow players to upgrade their gear with better stats. Some items have up to 1-4 slots.

FFXI focus more about stats than instant fashion. And gear that focus on your overall power to make you stand out from others based on your gear, not by your pretty looks or how big your helm is. Our reward is based on power progression through items.


People who are interested in the challenge will do it no matter what the reward is.

Which is ok if there's enough interested but no one should expect every event to be the same. I'd hate to constantly do VW style every content. Or do every REM style for every weapon with decent stats. And no one will have the same drive to take on that challenge. Look at Mythic, do you see everyone with a mythic?



The rest of us (the vast majority) will do it because the gear is better than what we had, it makes other things easier and it gives us a sense of superiority.

And the most players did REM?


These things don't really need to be connected. If you look at the vast majority of games out there, you will find that most in game achievements give nothing more than a medal, or a new skin for your character or an gamer rank point. They don't have to make the gear so powerful that you cannot complete certain events without it. They don't even have to make gear that comes from these events vastly superior. It just has to be a little better than the last thing. Look at afterglows. They provide no direct bonus to the user, but you know damn well that if you had the time and money, you would get them all just because.

Power of gear is made according to the level range of content. To you it's overpowered. Then I start seeing people complain that they are sick of fighting Yumcax for 10 hours and Hurkan for 5.


It's fine to have gear that is different enough to actually make a difference. It's bad to have gear that is so much more powerful that you can't play at a reasonable level without it. When you do that, you end up with a player base that only does one thing because all other events drop vastly inferior gear. That means that anyone who doesn't like or can't do that one thing, has no reason to stick around. You do that enough times and there is no one left.

Already explained that drastic measures had to wow the community to bring life back into SoA. If you can't play without it, then that means you depend on your gear than your skill because you don't necessarily need strictly gear to define your skills. I use to spend atleast 6 hours a day soloing Mikey, doing WoE to practice my skills, evading, dodging, Spellcasting, gear swapping, figuring out various types of gear to reduce damage, reduce magic damage, kiting skills, MP efficiency, Regen and Phalanx time duration, stoneskin duration, Ability timers, Regen timers, amount shadows from utsusemi and what spells can be evaded and what spells can remove a mobs shadows instantly quick as possible,when to flash a mob, recast timers for spells, weapon swaps to Weaponskills and knowing which WS debuff to durations of debuff, and Mp vs Aspir recast. Learning to pace myself according to all timers. And so on. I've killed Mikey with every single Mage job including bard and Geomancer solo.

And most cases I am the last person to die when parties start to wipe including tanking bosses when DDs get smashed.

Sad when I'm standing there tanking a boss for a few minutes for all DDs... Then people constantly check my gear and wonder how I do it. When in reality anyone could if they only showed up well prepared >.>


Most rares in this game are for fashion because they have been rendered completely inadequate by far more powerful gear and far more taxing events. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Items will always become inadequate at some point in time if the levels are increased. Sounds like you want old gear to stay relevant forever.


The game hasn't been like that for a long time. Any time you make something so strong as to be required (whether this is due to actual game limitations or those imposed by consensus of the player base), you create a market for it. When people have things that other people need, they sell them. They don't give them away. When people make things to sell, that removes them from the pool of people that can be teamed up with. When the pool of viable team mates shrinks, the market for the selling get's larger. The more powerful the item and the harder the event, the faster this happens and the more the harder it gets for people at the bottom.

Players haven't been low levels in a long time. As you increase in level along with others, conditions change.


You have to make events for the population you have. The game won't grow by word of mouth. They have to advertise and promote if they want growth. Trust me. I manage an IT department. I support hundreds of phones. No one listens to my advice when they buy a phone. They buy whatever is popular on TV and the net. Word of mouth won't cut it and building events for hundreds of people won't make hundreds of people come play your game. This is not field of dreams.

Games become outdated. Nintendo doesn't spend millions of dollars to keep promoting 1st generation games. They move forward. Not linger. That's what FFXIV was made for. To move forward along with the times.

No one will play your event if your level 120 and breeze through in a couple if months.


They had a population large enough to support big events. They no longer do. Besieged worked because it was 10 seconds away from where all the bored people were standing and it didn't cost anything to participate. That is not the case with WKR.

Besieged was good for what it did how many years ago? You still want besieged to be relevant? There is a huge difference in level from WR and besieged. And most players are not at besieged era anymore.


If the monsters are gonna smash us just the same, I don't really see the difference. Ilevel didn't add any new abilities. It didn't change how I play my jobs. It just added stats. They could have just added stats without gear. People could have continued to obtain gear at their own pace. Instead we have "Get everything now or be level 99 forever because no one is doing that event any more".

So what's better? Have monsters easy? Where's the fun in that? They smash you until you and everyone shows up in higher gear. When VW and every other event was first implemented, people got smashed. Until people started getting the gear from VW along with REM that made it easy. And I've seen way too many players not even carrying -PDT set.


They fixed that by making leveling fairly painless, then they broke it again by adding iLevel gear.

If you are earning ilvl gear. I'm sure that means you are past the exp phase >.>


Again, they could have made exp far easier to obtain without raising the cap. They raised the cap in order to give transition us into more powerful abilities. They made leveling in abyssea so strong so that people would maintain interest in it beyond just killing the NMs. By making Cruor and gil items and time come from chests, they gave people who didn't need to level a reason to help people who did. They could have just made every monster outside abyssea give 2,000 exp, but they wanted to keep people in groups. It sorta worked... sorta...

Do you know what it means to reach the inevitable question? If the majority of players reach that question then your example becomes irrelevant. And the attention was Abyssea. Not outer areas. Unless you want Abyssea to become dead or struggle for groups to be made, quests and missions to be finished.


The rewards for not helping people far outweigh the rewards for helping. When you only have two hours and you could spend it getting and item that gives you 2 more strength than you currently have in your ws build, it doesn't seem like a big sacrifice to help your friend instead. WHen the item you could be working on gives you 200 accuracy, 200 evasion, 200 parry skill, 150 more base damage and 60 strength, helping your friend becomes a major waste of time. Especially if it's a stranger and not a friend... and especially if you could be charging that stranger enormous amounts of money.

Tell that to the people who are about statistics, items, materials, self gain, lazy and don't want to be bothered wasting their time to go back and help others when they are too busy trying to get the best items that are current. Then they wonder why they can't find enough people to do content like WR. Well maybe if everyone went back and helped others catch up. Eventually you will see those players join your groups later. But people are too busy focusing on them than focusing on the community as a whole. And because having that kind of mind only contributes to the issue of "Nobody wants to do stuff with me when I want to"

Til this day I always go back and help others, add those low levels to my friendslidt and invite them to play things like Dyna, Salvage, VW, WoE, Delve, Colonization Reives and I never have a problem getting people together.

But people don't know that friendships don't happen overnight and no one can expect people to magically join the event you want to do unless they know you personally and want to hang out with you because you took the time to make friends with them than expect strangers to join every event you do.

And people do look up to you and appreciate that you are spending your time and using your power for the greater good to help those struggling than leave them behind to catch up slowly only to find out that the gap got even bigger while High levels continue to progress.


There wasn't much they could do to get people to max level quickly and still keep mid-level gear relevant. They could have made more level capped gear that was craftable at various levels to replace it though. Again, a lack of foresight.

How exactly does that happen when people are always speeding past content faster than they can pump out updates. How do you decide which gear over another if there is no more level progress? Not everyone is going to decide 1 piece over another and most likely those who go for every piece will have different reasons to carry each item which would only add more items in your gear sets and increase more inventory crisis.

If level cap was 75 no matter how many items SE releases, you can't simply add higher stats over another forever. Your level has to be adjusted along with the power of the items being acquired. Unless they give more long quests like REM. then the gap will be between hardcore players over others who don't have the patience or drive to do those quests. Til this day you have people complaining they can't get into Delve groups because they don't have REM. if they are complaining that, it means they don't want to spend several months just to play Delve.

As for crafters.

This would only turn into a greed fest if its crafting items which would only make crafters rich.

Balance is like tug o war, the better you make it on 1 side, the worse you make it for the other side. Then again the worse you make it on 1 side, the better you make it for the other side.


They recreated an older problem. They were having a hard time keeping every job relevant at end game and getting people to end game level in sufficient time, so they sped up leveling so that they didn't have to make every job relevant. People could just level multiple jobs. But then they made a lot of the jobs rely on hard to obtain items and they implemented caps on necessary weapon skills, thus limiting the number of jobs people could adequately play.

Uhg no. It's the community who makes jobs irrelevant because NA players only care about statistics. JPs don't discriminate jobs based on statistics. Oh this job does max damage. This job is most effecient.

And because NA players think this way, they don't bother using other skills, abilities and only follow what statistics tell them. JPs on the other hand incorporate all aspects of battle and use every skill, every ability and come up with various strategies. Not because they follow statistics and aim 1 direction. So what if people think Certain skills suck because they only last 5 seconds.

I still question why people think rotating bards to have 6 songs in a party only to get confused over amount of time 1 hour lasts vs time spend dropping and rotating only to be off point. Still people think Summoner sucks yet I see JPs use them all the time.

Anyone limiting themselves and the entire group based on statistics only follow robotic system that becomes the same routine every fight. JPs use every job for different reasons and I've never been forced to come a specific job unless it was an event like VW where procs were needed and all other required jobs were filled.

As for relying on hard to obtain items. Lack of knowledge and open mindness prevents players from progressing. If I level a job to 99 on a new account. Ill level a job I can use to earn Bayld, buy Bayld gear, enter Delve on a job as a support regardless if I don't want to play the job. Earn my Kis, plasm, then invest buying and upgrading the gear I do want.



Then instead of learning from those mistakes, they made content that was tiered in a way that is not viable over the long term because as more and more people beat it, it gets harder and harder for those who have not. Essentially putting the greatest challenge on those who are least prepared to complete it.

All FF games have tier areas.

You don't pay attention to details I can tell. Human error happened with SoA. People were losing interest for several reasons. Colonization was too hard. That was one of the main reasons.

New expansion was doing fine before Delve, but when they release that, people jumped on Delve and skipped skirmish making skirmish irrelevant. WR cost too much Bayld and not enough people.

Delve made huge gaps and many were complaining about the overall SoA expansion as fail.

REM players complaining threatening to rage quit because of Delve weapons.

SoA failing because REM players lost interest. People without REM lost interest. Colonization too hard made players lose interest. And gaps between players who could do delve and those who can't made those without REM lose interest.

Quest with "go here, go tgere, come back, done" made people lose interest.

Fail SoA means Fail FFXI because honestly after paying $30 bucks for an expansion that was destroying the game I can see the DEVs had to do something drastic to spoil the playerbase in order to keep the crowd at SoA. Purposely directing as many people possible to keep the crowds attention on SoA. Even at the cost of making all other content irrelevant.

So what is better?? Direct everyone's attention back to Salvafe? Abyssea? VW? Or direct everyone's attention to the new expansion? You can't direct players to different parts of the game unless you want every single server to suffer doing specific events like WR, Delve, Colonization Rieves. Unless FFXI has an overflowing server of players it would be reasonable but we don't have massive amounts of people.

So unless you want less people to join WR then I see how the DEV Team has to catch people's attention by releasing overpowered items to keep the majority of players playing the new expansion.



Well, if they don't maintain areas that are vital to new players, then they have no reason to try and attract new players. If they don't want new players then they have to maintain the base they have. If they don't want to maintain the base they have, then it's pretty much circling the drain.

I wonder how many new players massively joined and over flooded the servers when SoA was released? I didn't see many.

[OmnysValefor]

Uhg no. It's the community who makes jobs irrelevant because NA players only care about statistics. JPs don't disc tomato jobs based on statistics. Oh this job does max damage. This job is most effecient.

Dig out your ninjas and black mages guys. Sure BLM can't stun *nearly* as often as SCH, but if they press the button really hard, that matters.

PLD - Can't hold hate.
NIN - Can neither hold hate nor supertank.
RDM - Can't heal like a whm, not event close. Can't nuke or stun like an SCH / nuke like a blm.
BLU - SE doesn't even care that a number of BLU's enfeebles aren't procing.
BST, PUP - Just don't do enough damage for the spot. They're also expensive to keep your pet up, if even feasible, amidst all the ayes.
DRG - Only gets invited for one reason. Angon. If DRGs didn't have Angon, it just wouldn't be on the list.
DNC - You can dance if you want to, but you do damage for poo.
THF - lolTHF, bound by abilities and traits that are part of practically a different game.
BRD - Just Kidding, I just wanted you to lolwut

We would still use RDMs for enfeebles, if everything couldn't enfeeble already, and the pace of battle mattered anything more than ZERG IT BEFORE WE RUN OUT OF STUNZ ORZ.

Acceptable strategies for PLD would be used if PLD could actually hold hate. Like I said above, Ninja can neither hold hate, or take the heat so much better than a DD that they deserve a spot.

RUN, how about RUN. RUN's entire existence serves a purpose noone cares about. Noone needs a real tank anymore and as for the dd-tank, that was kinda ninja's spot, and noone uses ninja either.

* * *

No, SE made the jobs what they are. Check the forums for the jobs, people really really want them to come back, and SE has said no.

The only time they talk about PLD, they say they don't want hate to become a non-issue, as if PLD can actually hold hate. Having hate for the swing immediately after a voke/flash is not "tanking".

You're familiar with the RDM community. RDMs want something that gives them definition again, some want to bring it into new areas. SE is happy with where RDM is--or rather, is not.

[Rekin]

If unfavored jobs are to be even considered for non-optimal runs in high end content the majority of them would require massive revamps in themselves and the game's mechanics, both are unlikely to occur.

Only recently did they devs give a response to extremely long lasting bugs about blu enfeebles not working and their post about changing blu spell formulas only address physical spells. So I suppose thats 2/5s victory for one job. Now lets address the problems concerning the other jobs. (PS. arguing for versatility to make up lack of ability in large group events is a no-no.)

Right now jobs that are dps and aren't War/Sam/Rng/Drk/Mnk(woohoo the number has gone up from 3 to 5) have to rely on one specific thing to get invited. Example: Dragoon as Omnys mentioned is only invited for Angon. Its dmg is comparable to the go to DDs only if those dd are handled by morons. Red Mage capable of doing many mage tasks to a much lesser degree to the point of uselessness.

Daemon its nice you see things in a rosier view but reality is cruel. No one in their right mind now will risk failure in time consuming events because someone thought their sub-par job(by design) was sufficient enough to the task others are much better at even at their worst.

[Daemon]

Dig out your ninjas and black mages guys. Sure BLM can't stun *nearly* as often as SCH, but if they press the button really hard, that matters.

PLD - Can't hold hate.
NIN - Can neither hold hate nor supertank.
RDM - Can't heal like a whm, not event close. Can't nuke or stun like an SCH / nuke like a blm.
BLU - SE doesn't even care that a number of BLU's enfeebles aren't procing.
BST, PUP - Just don't do enough damage for the spot. They're also expensive to keep your pet up, if even feasible, amidst all the ayes.
DRG - Only gets invited for one reason. Angon. If DRGs didn't have Angon, it just wouldn't be on the list.
DNC - You can dance if you want to, but you do damage for poo.
THF - lolTHF, bound by abilities and traits that are part of practically a different game.
BRD - Just Kidding, I just wanted you to lolwut

We would still use RDMs for enfeebles, if everything couldn't enfeeble already, and the pace of battle mattered anything more than ZERG IT BEFORE WE RUN OUT OF STUNZ ORZ.

Acceptable strategies for PLD would be used if PLD could actually hold hate. Like I said above, Ninja can neither hold hate, or take the heat so much better than a DD that they deserve a spot.

RUN, how about RUN. RUN's entire existence serves a purpose noone cares about. Noone needs a real tank anymore and as for the dd-tank, that was kinda ninja's spot, and noone uses ninja either.

* * *

No, SE made the jobs what they are. Check the forums for the jobs, people really really want them to come back, and SE has said no.

The only time they talk about PLD, they say they don't want hate to become a non-issue, as if PLD can actually hold hate. Having hate for the swing immediately after a voke/flash is not "tanking".

You're familiar with the RDM community. RDMs want something that gives them definition again, some want to bring it into new areas. SE is happy with where RDM is--or rather, is not.

I just love how you look at jobs and make instant judgement. But then its because today people depend on big groups and no organization that would make you look at it this way.

Use the job for what they can do, not the way you expect them to do what you want.

It seems like you only look at jobs based on dps and nothing else.

And it's not about what 1 person can do. It's about what everyone can do as a team.

[OmnysValefor]

Your in-depth response clearly countered my point and represented the validity of all those jobs.

[detlef]

I love how when comparing DD jobs, the non-optimal job is being played by a professional gamer while the MNK/WAR/SAM/DRK is being played by a cat walking on the keyboard.

[Daemon]

Your in-depth response clearly countered my point and represented the validity of all those jobs.

Funny I've seen good PLDs hold hate. They tank first, have DDs form Skillchains, TP off mobs and only use WS on boss.

This prevents bosses from TPing too fast. And prevents PLD from losing hate.

BLMs? Stack Dot spells, deal damage with low tier spells at a pace.

Blue mages? Can help support party with Spells like diamondskin, Occultation, Pyric Bulwark, Cacoon, can help Batterycharge mages which stick longer than Refresh.

Ninja? Can TP off mobs and WS on boss, Til this day I still use Blade Retsu for Paralyze.

Dancers? Can help stun, haste, Chocobo jig the entire party to get through maps fast.

Thief can still Feint, Bulky, steal hate off mages and be considered a decent sacrifice than losing a WHM. Can dodge hits and still SATA off PLD by raising TP off mobs so PLD can keep hate.

Don't underestimate RUN, they have ability to lower magic damage, give invincibility to magic spells for a short time. And yes it makes a difference when you have Shell, magic def Set.

Point is every job have abilities, skills that can benefit the entire party IF EVERYONE KNOWS HOW TO WORK AS A TEAM AND EVERYONE IS WELL PREPARED.

Bard carols make a difference. A very big difference stacked with barspell, Shell, Run buff, Magic def gear.

If done properly you have tanker holding boss, while DDs rotate WS and Skillchains, Mages are focused on keeping buffs up and keeping party alive.

Enfeebled and dotted at all times unless doing Taxet.

Scholar Embrava, Regen V, phalanx, Enspells, Storms, TP regain, stoneskin in dire moments.

Summoners are amazing if they support instead of being a 1 man show.

[OmnysValefor]

@Daemon, (this has nothing to do with detlef's post)

The jobs we frame battle around are the simple jobs because battle is now simple. That's not to say it doesn't take exception players to get things like the first Delve kills. Those players could also be amazing red mages and thieves too, top-of-the-line probably, but they'd still not perform as well.

That's what SE has boiled the game down to, raw damage output and megapowerful healing with stunlocking where appropriate. Before Embrava/PD Nerf, those were instrumental in first kills. If Embrava and PD were still huge things, the first groups would have used them and had their kills earlier.

Edit: Many groups still take advantage of Embrava on bosses when the sch 2 hours to stunlock. The effects of embrava are still potent, just not as game-changing as they were.

[Daemon]

@Daemon, (this has nothing to do with detlef's post)

The jobs we frame battle around are the simple jobs because battle is now simple. That's not to say it doesn't take exception players to get things like the first Delve kills. Those players could also be amazing red mages and thieves too, top-of-the-line probably, but they'd still not perform as well.

That's what SE has boiled the game down to, raw damage output and megapowerful healing with stunlocking where appropriate. Before Embrava/PD Nerf, those were instrumental in first kills. If Embrava and PD were still huge things, the first groups would have used them and had their kills earlier.

More parties than I can count we've either succeeded or stayed alive longer when I played as scholar in the group. Embrava is still goid and very powerful.

Stacked with Regen V you have a very powerful Regen with Phalanx and stoneskin up. Survivability is much higher than just depending on WHM to heal wasting too much MP for instant cures. And having Regen and Embrava up in facts saves MP.

Shockspikes even help party stay alive longer due to subtle stun effect.

Problem is everyone is Power hungry and only want to use highest DPS gear and no PDT. Which then hate control becomes impossible, especially when groups thinks its smart to engage boss the entire time rather than use mobs for TP.

Once DDs start dying then other DDs become meat shields for a short time only to die and entire party to wipe.

When all DD sacrifice some DPS as a whole and all mages work together to keep phalanx stoneskin protect shell shock spikes enfeebled dots, Regen, using whispering wind from Garuda. The entire group stays alive at the cost of sacrificing some DPS in the long term run you are dealing damage consistently than when party wipes out and have weakened members with weak damage trying to deal damage.

Even as a Mage class I wear some PDT or MDT gear to take less damage from Aoe which saves more MP and helps me survive longer.

[OmnysValefor]

Funny I've seen good PLDs hold hate. They tank first, have DDs form Skillchains, TP off mobs and only use WS on boss.

That's not legitimate tanking, and this is even only feasible--if it's feasible anymore (haven't seen this since abyssea) because you're handicapping your dd's. All the phrases to use, "holding back", "handicapping", they're all understaements.


This prevents bosses from TPing too fast. And prevents PLD from losing hate.

In the rare instance where someone messed something up while I was supertanking in delve, let me tell you that I could hold solid hate on two NMs (that happened once, one whm flashed the cricket, and the other whm body agrod the butterflies to "bring them to me"). I did fine and dandy until I hit hate cap.

You see, that's what happens, after enough time, healers have built up so much enmity that they pull away. They can even pull out of 8 or 10 DDs landing several hits a second.

Enmity is broken.


BLMs? Stack Dot spells, deal damage with low tier spells at a pace.

SCH/BLM? In between stuns, stack dot spells, toss in dispels if necessary, and maybe a few quick casting low tier nukes.


Blue mages? Can help support party with Spells like diamondskin, Occultation, Pyric Bulwark, Cacoon, can help Batterycharge mages which stick longer than Refresh.

Short of diamondhide, I believe all those are single target and need diffusion, a 10 minute cooldown.


Ninja? Can TP off mobs and WS on boss, Til this day I still use Blade Retsu for Paralyze.

Not even touching how far-reaching this one is.


Dancers? Can help stun, haste, Chocobo jig the entire party to get through maps fast.

Bosses will so reliably resist a dancer's stuns that no reasonable group would depend on them. They also depend on melee accuracy to even land the hit. SCH can stun twice as fast as dancer with strats, and just as fast once strats are gone.


Thief can still Feint, Bulky, steal hate off mages and be considered a decent sacrifice than losing a WHM. Can dodge hits and still SATA off PLD by raising TP off mobs so PLD can keep hate.

Yes, they can, but they suffer from being probably the weakest damage dealer.


Don't underestimate RUN, they have ability to lower magic damage, give invincibility to magic spells for a short time. And yes it makes a difference when you have Shell, magic def Set.

Aside from the enfeebling side-effects, my aegis is damn near immune to magic damage and tanks a hit incomparably better than a RUN. I cleared 1150 defense with Defender, and no food. I could bust a taco and probably tap 1350.

[Daemon]

That's not legitimate tanking, and this is even only feasible--if it's feasible anymore (haven't seen this since abyssea) because you're handicapping your dd's. All the phrases to use, "holding back", "handicapping", they're all understaements.

How are you handicapping your DDs? Stacking Skillchains do massive damage. On scholar I've tested self Skillchain and have done distortion for 50-70 DMG followed by Darkness dealing up to 13k solo in Abby and WoE. Although I had atmas, temps, buffs, it was a test to see how new gear makes Skillchain more powerful. Skillchains is a lost art that people either have forgotten or don't know how much powerful they can be with the current gear and stats.

Not only did my WS do more DMG than normal, my darkness also had a significant boost in damage which total to 13k altogether. And casting Dia before doing selfskillchain also contributed to make it happen.

And SCH is not DD.

We do them all the time in my JP LS. Our main LS leader is Ochain PLD and he holds bosses perfectly fine.
They cycle off regular mobs and TP off boss to prevent bosses from TPing faster, casting spells faster etc.

And this prevents tanker from losing hate making boss turn and randomly attack others.

Difference is, we've been practicing together for years. No one talks but listens. And leader is usually the only person talking in every single event. We work as a team and I follow orders when given.


In the rare instance where someone messed something up while I was supertanking in delve, let me tell you that I could hold solid hate on two NMs (that happened once, one whm flashed the cricket, and the other whm body agrod the butterflies to "bring them to me"). I did fine and dandy until I hit hate cap.

You see, that's what happens, after enough time, healers have built up so much enmity that they pull away. They can even pull out of 8 or 10 DDs landing several hits a second.

Enmity is broken.

I don't think enmity is broken. Crickets reset hate in general that's why those are a pain. Which cricket NM can be bound with bind, gravity 2 and slept.

Man I really wish you was on my server. People laugh that I full time Hvelgamir in Delve plasm farming. But we always net 9k and my group always survives perfectly fine than the other 2 alliances. And I'm always standing near DD wearing -PDT gear as a scholar. Bard eventually stop Mage ballad me. And those people laughing start checking my gear when they see me evade, take less damage or survive longer than most everyone else. Only to wonder what I'm doing to make it happen.

A lot of times i'm switching gears that don't make my character blink. And that's why people get confused.


SCH/BLM? In between stuns, stack dot spells, toss in dispels if necessary, and maybe a few quick casting low tier nukes.

Lol parties need to constantly stun because the more people attacking the faster the pace mob will act. TPing fast etc. that's why less people with less attacking except in the case of a boss that resets TP, watch how fast mobs TP, cast spells, use abilities in solo vids. Try something like WoE with LS members with low man group vs 18 people. Is why you see many scholar vids solo VW bosses running around a mountain kiting.

Kiting mob also can interrupt its Spellcasting and running far away at the moment mob is about TP can prevent it. I mean if its chasing you...


Short of diamondhide, I believe all those are single target and need diffusion, a 10 minute cooldown.

Pyric bulwark is good, diamond hide doesn't require Diffusion.


Bosses will so reliably resist a dancer's stuns that no reasonable group would depend on them. They also depend on melee accuracy to even land the hit. SCH can stun twice as fast as dancer with strats, and just as fast once strats are gone.

Lol it's sad, you are wasting scholars with stun than what scholars can really do. It's my main job. Keeping Regen V, Phalanx, Stoneskin, TP regain, storms, Schock spikes benefit more than stun slaving.

Dancers haste Samba, Curing Walk, Healing Waltz, Still make a difference.


Aside from the enfeebling side-effects, my aegis is damn near immune to magic damage and tanks a hit incomparably better than a RUN. I cleared 1150 defense with Defender, and no food. I could bust a taco and probably tap 1350.

That's probably because you've never seen a well geared Mage well buffed, well geared, brings best food, and knows how to use correct spells.

Your Aegis PLD can protect your party members with ability? RUN can.

It's why my inventory is maxed out. I use defense gear with -PDT, have stonskin set to give stronger stoneskin stacked with protect V and Phalanx, with Regen V, some Aoe lower damage on a few DD lightly. Instead of wasting MP curing them on a boss I know won't deal massive damage fast, I let Regen cure instead while I do other tasks.

This is why I spent 6 hours a day or more everyday practicing my skills, knowing my timers, and figuring out when to do certain tasks if all else fails.

I still don't understand why people think rotating bards for 6 songs is worth sacrificing slot for other jobs like summoner.

And extra scholar could help other parties stay alive longer.

RDM with Fast cast might only stun every 35 Seconds but they have paralyze, blind, Addle to make up for it. Chainspell stun with relic +2 body give 20 seconds more to CS which is perfect for boss at 10% to 5% HP left if something goes wrong and need to stall to give fallen members chance to get up.

But other jobs should be contributing as well.

I just see too many people being assigned to one or two task than knowing when to contribute their all every second of the fight. Following robotic orders.

And Scholar with high INT, MAB, Hailstorm, Cream puff, using Ebullence and Kausta does massive DOT damage. And I still don't see scholars do that.

I can do it on Mikey and probably kill it with only Kaustra that's how powerful it is. And people think Scholar is worthless after regain nerf.....

Literally you can see HP dropping off Mikey if you watched.

I did Kaustra on Hurkan the day DJ took me. Boss died in 15 minutes at 35% HP. Given a JP Scholar was spamming Kaustra too.

I would never use thief to be damage dealer. I'd use them as pullers, steal enmity off WHM or SCH even if they have to die to keep the main healer alive, although followed by stealing enmity, using Bully could spare seconds, Feint, SATA onto main tanker.

Imagine with all scholar buffs including Regen V and Embrava plus Alexandrite perfect defense. Bard and COR buffs up too. Blink or occultation on top of that.

How can you not survive long enough to massacre and deal some decent damage within that time window?

Which is why I still don't understand parties cycling 3 bards before and during a boss fight for 6 songs >.>

If people did not discriminate others for playing a job, they would learn to make use of every jobs skills, abilities than resort to robotic setups assigning 1-2 task per person and hitting WS every time TP hits 100% in hopes that everyone could take down the boss before people start wiping out....,

And then when DEVs announce how strange setups like RNG, DRG was part of a team that took down a WR boss first wouldn't be wondering how its possible.

Every job has potential to be powerful. You just don't see it because too many people would never invite them leaving people not to play those jobs therefore never showing anyone the full potential of what they can do.

Too many people assume if you cannot DPS higher than someone else, the job is useless.

A Dragoon saved my life healing me with her Wyvern when no other Mage tossed me a cure when I ran out of MP CS cures, enfeebles, stuns....

And then I wonder why people laugh at dragoons making use of the abilities they have. She wasn't following robotic orders, she was paying attention and saved me at the moment no one else did.

[Demon6324236]

Gotta pop in for this post...


How are you handicapping your DDs? Stacking Skillchains do massive damage. On scholar I've tested self Skillchain and have done distortion for 50-70 DMG followed by Darkness dealing up to 13k solo in Abby and WoE. Although I had atmas, temps, buffs, it was a test to see how new gear makes Skillchain more powerful. Skillchains is a lost art that people either have forgotten or don't know how much powerful they can be with the current gear and stats.Firstly, skill chains are highly inaccurate on high level mobs because of the problems with item levels and skill not enhancing resist rates on them, I have never seen a near decent SC on Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or Muyingwa, I have also never seen a decent one on any of the T4~5 NMs either.

Secondly, Abyssea and WoE will never be places you can test anything relevant to new content, both were made at level 90~99, both provide you with temps that give insane buffs, neither of these things can be found in any new content, at all. Just because my RDM can spam T2 Blizzard spells in Abyssea on NMs for 2.2k means nothing, I had a run on Tojil I was told to Chainspell Blizzard on him for the first 25% because of his magic damage taken during it, I did so, and my T4 spells were hitting for under 500.


We do them all the time in my JP LS. Our main LS leader is Ochain PLD and he holds bosses perfectly fine.
They cycle off regular mobs and TP off boss to prevent bosses from TPing faster, casting spells faster etc.Describe 'Bosses', what exactly do you fight? Last I knew, you did not have a lot done in Adoulin, so far as I know the majority of your experience comes from WoE, and pre-Adoulin content. If you are talking about pre-Adoulin stuff again, yay, some content can allow for it. When you are in Delve and you can TP on other mobs then WS on the NM so the PLD can hold hate, and you still make it to a NM like Tojil or Dakuwaqa and manage to win, let me know.


And this prevents tanker from losing hate making boss turn and randomly attack others.At the cost of failing the run, because you have to hold back so much. Yes, you hold back, you lose a ton of damage, enough so you cant kill the NMs in the run. You know why? Simple. How much damage does a DD do on each normal hit while they build TP? How much time do they spend getting new mobs to hit for TP? How long do they waste doing these things when they could simply hit the NM for TP, and WS it instantly upon having said TP, over, and over, and over again. Lost of damage being lost. Even the best runs I go with on Tojil, we take about 25~30 minutes, with 15 or so minutes left over at best, if we halved our kill speed, it would make runs impossible, even with the best groups I have went with.




I don't think enmity is broken. Crickets reset hate in general that's why those are a pain. Which cricket NM can be bound with bind, gravity 2 and slept.Cricket NM has a time limit of 20 minutes which does not afford you the time to bind, gravity, or sleep it and run away, you can use none of these to help during combat except perhaps gravity, and even that is very, very limited on use. So far as hate wiping, its a solution to one of the reasons why enmity is broken, but in a way I agree, I don't think its broken, I know flat out that it is.


Man I really wish you was on my server. People laugh that I full time Hvelgamir in Delve plasm farming. But we always net 9k and my group always survives perfectly fine than the other 2 alliances. And I'm always standing near DD wearing -PDT gear as a scholar. Bard eventually stop Mage ballad me. And those people laughing start checking my gear when they see me evade, take less damage or survive longer than most everyone else. Only to wonder what I'm doing to make it happen.Is it that, or are they looking at you wondering why you waste your time with a worthless crap weapon when there are options that are easily better to obtain and much more effective?




Lol parties need to constantly stun because the more people attacking the faster the pace mob will act. TPing fast etc. that's why less people with less attacking except in the case of a boss that resets TP, watch how fast mobs TP, cast spells, use abilities in solo vids. Try something like WoE with LS members with low man group vs 18 people. Is why you see many scholar vids solo VW bosses running around a mountain kiting.Try something like Delve bosses with LS members with low man group vs 18 people. You will see instantly why its impossible to kill slowly intentionally, and why its impossible to not stun their TP moves. Oh, look, Kurma used TTremor, twice, unstunned back to back, and now your party is wipped. Oh look, Tojil got of Lahar for the 5th time, your DDs are weakened yet again. Oh look, Dakuwaqa used Tidal Guillotine and killed 3 of our DDs in 1 attack, sure glad we didn't stun that. Hell, that last one would kill your PLD even, if they don't block it.


Kiting mob also can interrupt its Spellcasting and running far away at the moment mob is about TP can prevent it. I mean if its chasing you...If its chasing you, or you can run that far away that fast to begin with, without using cupper, then your already in a losing fight against anything meaningful in Adoulin.




Pyric bulwark is goodNo, its not. Even if you use perfect timing and use it just as a mob uses a TP move, cast it with stun like casting time, its still only a single party being protected, and still only a single hit, nothing changes that, a stun is easily safer for both the caster, and those it protects.




Lol it's sad, you are wasting scholars with stun than what scholars can really do. It's my main job. Keeping Regen V, Phalanx, Stoneskin, TP regain, storms, Schock spikes benefit more than stun slaving.No... just... no... Regen, Phalanx, TP Regain, these might be reasons to use them for a healer, but they are not more beneficial than stuns, ever. Shock Spikes are worthless, completely, do not mention them again.


Dancers haste Samba, Curing Walk, Healing Waltz, Still make a difference.If your DDs need to heal, your WHMs suck. Haste Samba does not help all to much when you have BRDs and WHMs capping your Magic Haste. 43.5% Magic Haste + 25% Gear Haste = 68.5% Haste, Hasso, which all your DDs except for MNKs will likely have full timed, puts them at 78.5%, which is an amazing 1.5% from cap, so that DNC would get you 1.5%, that's it. Your MNKs get little benefit too so far as I know, since I believe Martial Arts counts toward the Haste cap, and MNK has enough of that to put them on very close to cap if not at cap with Marches+Haste+Gear.




Your Aegis PLD can protect your party members with ability? RUN can.Yay for RUN, still cant take a hit, if you want to design a tank it has to be able to live through normal attacks as well as magical attacks, RUN can not do this well, NIN can, PLD can, RDM can, RUN cant, as such, it fails.


It's why my inventory is maxed out. I use defense gear with -PDT, have stonskin set to give stronger stoneskin stacked with protect V and Phalanx, with Regen V, some Aoe lower damage on a few DD lightly. Instead of wasting MP curing them on a boss I know won't deal massive damage fast, I let Regen cure instead while I do other tasks.Let me point out 1 bad thing, that Stoneskin gear only helps 1 person, you, no one else gets any benefit from it at all.


I still don't understand why people think rotating bards for 6 songs is worth sacrificing slot for other jobs like summoner.Because its Summoner. It offers nothing compared to a BRD. A BRD can give my parties high powered AoE buffs they can use in a short period of time and use during swaps to quickly and easily hit my party, or rather, alliance, with buffs that will last a good 6 or more minutes. A SMN offers me, what? Stoneskin? Hastega? Some STR & DEX buffs from Fenny? Yay, but compared to the Attack, Accuracy, or Haste, that a BRD gives me, its meaningless.


RDM with Fast cast might only stun every 35 Seconds but they have paralyze, blind, Addle to make up for it.Due to Atinian Staff being for SCH & not RDM, and all of the best enfeebling gear in the game being for both RDM & SCH, SCH can Para, Blind, Slow, Grav, and basically everything else better than RDMs can. The only thing RDM can do better in that list, Addle. While sure, a SCH cant do this while stunning since they need /BLM to stun, heres a funny thing that actually works, have your SCH who heals, /RDM, which is the best sub for healing as a SCH anyways, and then they can throw these enfeebles if needed, which takes a whole 2 seconds. RDM is then screwed, and can go cry in a corner. My own job I am talking about here, and I know perfectly well how shitty and sad it is to be one at any time.


I just see too many people being assigned to one or two task than knowing when to contribute their all every second of the fight. Following robotic orders.Such as? These are bad players most often, like me, I suck at GEO, I know I do, when I play on my GF's GEO I know I suck at it. A good GEO will use their buffs or debuffs and heal others or themselves if needed while debuffing the enemy or buffing their party, as well as keeping up some additional non-GEO buffs like refresh or Haste if need be. I suck at it, but I know good GEOs who do it. If your good at your job, you should know what you should be doing when not doing the specifically instructed things, unless people tell you to not do your own things, in which case, probably a reason. If I tell my healer not to Dia Mata, because, ya know, it resets his chain and makes the fight take an extra few minutes due to your idiocy, then yeah, I am telling them not to do part of their job, but I have a reason. On the other hand if I tell a guy to keep the Eft silenced, and yet, all he does is silence it for 4 minutes while the DDs beat it to death, hes an idiot, much more to a job than 'silence target NM'.


And Scholar with high INT, MAB, Hailstorm, Cream puff, using Ebullence and Kausta does massive DOT damage. And I still don't see scholars do that.Because anywhere besides low level content, or at least, pre-Adoulin content, it doesn't do anything.


I can do it on Mikey and probably kill it with only Kaustra that's how powerful it is. And people think Scholar is worthless after regain nerfAs shown by the constant demand for SCHs, just in the stunning role, not nuking, because yes, nuking is worthless on hard targets.


Literally you can see HP dropping off Mikey if you watched.In Abyssea, again, not relevant.


I did Kaustra on Hurkan the day DJ took me. Boss died in 15 minutes at 35% HP. Given a JP Scholar was spamming Kaustra too.Unless you can actually say how much the DMG was that you did, it means nothing at all. SMNs & CORs in high enough amounts and who are good, can kill Hurkan very quickly, it depends on how many there are. If you tell me you did 500 on a Kaustra, that means it would do 125 a tick, meaningless, if you tell me you did 5000, which by the way, is so very unlikely that I probably would pay no attention without a screenshot, it would do 1250 a tick, at which point, it might matter some more.

[Daemon]

Gotta pop in for this post...

Firstly, skill chains are highly inaccurate on high level mobs because of the problems with item levels and skill not enhancing resist rates on them, I have never seen a near decent SC on Tojil, Dakuwaqa, or Muyingwa, I have also never seen a decent one on any of the T4~5 NMs either.

Secondly, Abyssea and WoE will never be places you can test anything relevant to new content, both were made at level 90~99, both provide you with temps that give insane buffs, neither of these things can be found in any new content, at all. Just because my RDM can spam T2 Blizzard spells in Abyssea on NMs for 2.2k means nothing, I had a run on Tojil I was told to Chainspell Blizzard on him for the first 25% because of his magic damage taken during it, I did so, and my T4 spells were hitting for under 500.

Describe 'Bosses', what exactly do you fight? Last I knew, you did not have a lot done in Adoulin, so far as I know the majority of your experience comes from WoE, and pre-Adoulin content. If you are talking about pre-Adoulin stuff again, yay, some content can allow for it. When you are in Delve and you can TP on other mobs then WS on the NM so the PLD can hold hate, and you still make it to a NM like Tojil or Dakuwaqa and manage to win, let me know.

At the cost of failing the run, because you have to hold back so much. Yes, you hold back, you lose a ton of damage, enough so you cant kill the NMs in the run. You know why? Simple. How much damage does a DD do on each normal hit while they build TP? How much time do they spend getting new mobs to hit for TP? How long do they waste doing these things when they could simply hit the NM for TP, and WS it instantly upon having said TP, over, and over, and over again. Lost of damage being lost. Even the best runs I go with on Tojil, we take about 25~30 minutes, with 15 or so minutes left over at best, if we halved our kill speed, it would make runs impossible, even with the best groups I have went with.



Cricket NM has a time limit of 20 minutes which does not afford you the time to bind, gravity, or sleep it and run away, you can use none of these to help during combat except perhaps gravity, and even that is very, very limited on use. So far as hate wiping, its a solution to one of the reasons why enmity is broken, but in a way I agree, I don't think its broken, I know flat out that it is.

Is it that, or are they looking at you wondering why you waste your time with a worthless crap weapon when there are options that are easily better to obtain and much more effective?



Try something like Delve bosses with LS members with low man group vs 18 people. You will see instantly why its impossible to kill slowly intentionally, and why its impossible to not stun their TP moves. Oh, look, Kurma used TTremor, twice, unstunned back to back, and now your party is wipped. Oh look, Tojil got of Lahar for the 5th time, your DDs are weakened yet again. Oh look, Dakuwaqa used Tidal Guillotine and killed 3 of our DDs in 1 attack, sure glad we didn't stun that. Hell, that last one would kill your PLD even, if they don't block it.

If its chasing you, or you can run that far away that fast to begin with, without using cupper, then your already in a losing fight against anything meaningful in Adoulin.



No, its not. Even if you use perfect timing and use it just as a mob uses a TP move, cast it with stun like casting time, its still only a single party being protected, and still only a single hit, nothing changes that, a stun is easily safer for both the caster, and those it protects.



No... just... no... Regen, Phalanx, TP Regain, these might be reasons to use them for a healer, but they are not more beneficial than stuns, ever. Shock Spikes are worthless, completely, do not mention them again.

If your DDs need to heal, your WHMs suck. Haste Samba does not help all to much when you have BRDs and WHMs capping your Magic Haste. 43.5% Magic Haste + 25% Gear Haste = 68.5% Haste, Hasso, which all your DDs except for MNKs will likely have full timed, puts them at 78.5%, which is an amazing 1.5% from cap, so that DNC would get you 1.5%, that's it. Your MNKs get little benefit too so far as I know, since I believe Martial Arts counts toward the Haste cap, and MNK has enough of that to put them on very close to cap if not at cap with Marches+Haste+Gear.



Yay for RUN, still cant take a hit, if you want to design a tank it has to be able to live through normal attacks as well as magical attacks, RUN can not do this well, NIN can, PLD can, RDM can, RUN cant, as such, it fails.

Let me point out 1 bad thing, that Stoneskin gear only helps 1 person, you, no one else gets any benefit from it at all.

Because its Summoner. It offers nothing compared to a BRD. A BRD can give my parties high powered AoE buffs they can use in a short period of time and use during swaps to quickly and easily hit my party, or rather, alliance, with buffs that will last a good 6 or more minutes. A SMN offers me, what? Stoneskin? Hastega? Some STR & DEX buffs from Fenny? Yay, but compared to the Attack, Accuracy, or Haste, that a BRD gives me, its meaningless.

Due to Atinian Staff being for SCH & not RDM, and all of the best enfeebling gear in the game being for both RDM & SCH, SCH can Para, Blind, Slow, Grav, and basically everything else better than RDMs can. The only thing RDM can do better in that list, Addle. While sure, a SCH cant do this while stunning since they need /BLM to stun, heres a funny thing that actually works, have your SCH who heals, /RDM, which is the best sub for healing as a SCH anyways, and then they can throw these enfeebles if needed, which takes a whole 2 seconds. RDM is then screwed, and can go cry in a corner. My own job I am talking about here, and I know perfectly well how shitty and sad it is to be one at any time.

Such as? These are bad players most often, like me, I suck at GEO, I know I do, when I play on my GF's GEO I know I suck at it. A good GEO will use their buffs or debuffs and heal others or themselves if needed while debuffing the enemy or buffing their party, as well as keeping up some additional non-GEO buffs like refresh or Haste if need be. I suck at it, but I know good GEOs who do it. If your good at your job, you should know what you should be doing when not doing the specifically instructed things, unless people tell you to not do your own things, in which case, probably a reason. If I tell my healer not to Dia Mata, because, ya know, it resets his chain and makes the fight take an extra few minutes due to your idiocy, then yeah, I am telling them not to do part of their job, but I have a reason. On the other hand if I tell a guy to keep the Eft silenced, and yet, all he does is silence it for 4 minutes while the DDs beat it to death, hes an idiot, much more to a job than 'silence target NM'.

Because anywhere besides low level content, or at least, pre-Adoulin content, it doesn't do anything.

As shown by the constant demand for SCHs, just in the stunning role, not nuking, because yes, nuking is worthless on hard targets.

In Abyssea, again, not relevant.

Unless you can actually say how much the DMG was that you did, it means nothing at all. SMNs & CORs in high enough amounts and who are good, can kill Hurkan very quickly, it depends on how many there are. If you tell me you did 500 on a Kaustra, that means it would do 125 a tick, meaningless, if you tell me you did 5000, which by the way, is so very unlikely that I probably would pay no attention without a screenshot, it would do 1250 a tick, at which point, it might matter some more.

You are utterly hopeless and sound as everything at this point in FFXI is broken and without challenge. Every time I read your posts, I get the impression events are way worse than what they turn out to be when we do team up only to hear that "oh the event was easy that time."

I'm still waiting to this day to see such horrible events you make it sound to be so I can understand what you are talking about.

Unless everyone was maxed out with the best gear and skill and then failing and never landing WS, spells accurately then I could believe you.

Then again unless I see everyone failing events because zero techniques and strategies don't work then the same applies. My LS is Delve LS. You act like I'm some noob who has barely even played any SoA content.

Then again you act like I don't know jack about FFXI.

I know I did not waste all my time building my character, maxing my skills, collecting ton of gear sets only to be irrelevant overnight.

I don't blame SE for not being able to get items or defeat a boss, I blame the team work and lack of properly prepared parties, organization, strategy for this.

Just because a pebble or log drops, I don't play WR to earn Gil or expect any compensation for an event if I'm after gear that can improve the overall power of my character.

So until I actually see how bad you make it sound every time, I just can't and won't believe nor hop on to the negative hopeless bandwagon with the rest that agree with you.

I've only been playing in my JP LS about 10 years practicing with them with various jobs at every event but I guess that has no value compared to joining random groups with people I don't know. I mean according to it sounds as if its impossible to train ourselves to be quick, to the point, accurately work as a team and figure out together how to improve and learn our mistakes.

You make it sound like it does not matter and does not make any difference. When I know it does because we know what we are doing than playing with people that are clueless and "just go along with it following the common strategy all parties follow because we don't have time or the ability to take risk trying something else with people that don't click"

Only for me too see the difference between people who do know what to do and people who don't know but just follow what the majority is doing "as long as I do what was assigned to me" clearly in every group I randomly join.

Just because old content mobs don't compare with newer content mobs doesn't mean its impossible to practice. Regardless if its WoE, Abby, Those areas can provide good practice in figuring out which gear sets to carry, how to avoid certain death, improve damage, accuracy, foods etc.

Everyday I intentionally practiced on all types of bosses in all areas of the game so I can better understand how to be skillful in any group dealing with any setup.

Although I may not play as much as I did before does not mean I lost 11 years worth of experience and skills. And when I do come back, its not hard to brush up and get back into the game I left off at.

I wonder how many players practice the same? Or put any effort to know every single skill, ability, limits, and what to do in worst case scenarios at the moment? Practice several jobs in order to understand how each job can contribute as a whole?

If 20 minutes is only given to fight and kill Tojil, then its meant to be taken down in less. Try taking down Mingyl from Flux 15 in WoE and then tell me if the skill and effort doesn't compare.

I've learned to control hate, kite, run out of range from spells, survive when people get one shot to death. I've even out survived most if not all because I've trained myself to put on defense gear at the right moments, cast the proper barspells and buffs according to the spell being casted.

I fail to see how Mingyl cannot compare to Delve bosses.

[OmnysValefor]

First, to start with a separate post of yours . . .


I don't blame SE for not being able to get items or defeat a boss, I blame the team work and lack of properly prepared parties, organization, strategy for this.

Neither do I. There's about 5 items my pld doesn't have that I would like to. Burtgang and Defending Ring top the list. 0/18 on said ring.


How are you handicapping your DDs? Stacking Skillchains do massive damage. On scholar I've tested self Skillchain and have done distortion for 50-70 DMG followed by Darkness dealing up to 13k solo in Abby and WoE. Although I had atmas, temps, buffs, it was a test to see how new gear makes Skillchain more powerful. Skillchains is a lost art that people either have forgotten or don't know how much powerful they can be with the current gear and stats.

Chiseling stone is a lost art too.

Abyssea is also irrelevant you're pretty much capped on stats. I did a 3500 Requiescat on Fafnir the other day and I chew up behemoths like they're nothing! Abyssea is nearly that irrelevant when it comes to damage we can do.


We do them all the time in my JP LS. Our main LS leader is Ochain PLD and he holds bosses perfectly fine.
They cycle off regular mobs and TP off boss to prevent bosses from TPing faster, casting spells faster etc.

I hate to bring a person's experience into this.. what bosses are you talking about? I can neither see a Tojil going like that nor understand why you'd want to. Tojil's just an example but the first 25% needs to be burned through as fast as possible.

I'll wait to say anything further until you reply.

It probably goes without saying, since I'm a supreme jack*** PLD, but I have every kit a PLD needs/wants/wishes mattered, an enmity kit among them and I would not try to make an ls restrain themselves so far just so I could feel important again.

No, it's on SE to make PLD matter again. In the battle, not as walking dead off in some nearby room.


Difference is, we've been practicing together for years. No one talks but listens. And leader is usually the only person talking in every single event. We work as a team and I follow orders when given.

And you think that others don't? We neanderthals melee burning everything just charge in wildly and hope there's a cure nearby and that noone's fighting another boss. No, our raid leader sets the strategies and calls out when to go.


I don't think enmity is broken. Crickets reset hate in general that's why those are a pain. Which cricket NM can be bound with bind, gravity 2 and slept.

This was before the magic accuracy weapon update, I'd be interested to see a WHM land that. But no, this wasn't a hate reset because a voke or flash would bring either back, for a few seconds. It took about a half hour for the WHM to cap enmity, but it happened. Cap. like hitting a brick wall. I also started developing problems out of both NMs at the same time. I'm a PLD, I know hate cap when I see it, I spent years living there ^_^.


Man I really wish you was on my server. People laugh that I full time Hvelgamir in Delve plasm farming. But we always net 9k and my group always survives perfectly fine than the other 2 alliances. And I'm always standing near DD wearing -PDT gear as a scholar. Bard eventually stop Mage ballad me. And those people laughing start checking my gear when they see me evade, take less damage or survive longer than most everyone else. Only to wonder what I'm doing to make it happen.

I wouldn't knock on someone's experience unless I absolutely had to, but here's the evidence that you're not even killing 5/5. If you kick that PLD out of the spotlight, and force him to just suck it up and supertank, you might pull off 70k runs. Our LS and many others do 70k in 30 minutes. Call it 140k in an hour and a half (time toe reset 2hr's and maybe people afking), vs 18k in an hour and a half if your group pops back in right in.


A lot of times i'm switching gears that don't make my character blink. And that's why people get confused.

Yes--back, neck, rings, earrings, waste, and head if you have /displayhead off.


Lol it's sad, you are wasting scholars with stun than what scholars can really do. It's my main job. Keeping Regen V, Phalanx, Stoneskin, TP regain, storms, Schock spikes benefit more than stun slaving.

So you're switching to Dark Arts just to Manifestation >> Shock Spikes? And no, no, lol no, shock spikes won't do anything against Firaga V. Accessioning stoneskin might not even really be worth it for all the other white spells you can spread. Sure, if scholar had unlimited stratagems, but it doesn't.


Dancers haste Samba, Curing Walk, Healing Waltz, Still make a difference.

Walzes are good in a bind, if the dancer has TP. I'm sure many dancers have saved their own lives tossing themselves a waltz, however.. You're forgetting the two reasons anyone actually remotely cares about dancer. The -def down step and the -magic evasion step. That's it. Haste Samba is nice, but a real dd in that spot in that party will walk all over the dancer, if your dd's aren't delay capped anyway.


That's probably because you've never seen a well geared Mage well buffed, well geared, brings best food, and knows how to use correct spells.

Let me tell you about a tarutaru named Potopsi. I'm kidding, I'm not gonna say anything more about him, but he is every bit as good of a scholar as he can be. Just because he has probably the best stun set that exists, he still knows, plays, and has the gear for the white side of scholar too.

Our usual raid leader is also a dynamite scholar, but I think Pot prizes the job a little more, or at least Pot's more vocal about it.


Your Aegis PLD can protect your party members with ability? RUN can.

So far, SE hasn't made content where RUN is necessary. MNK/RUN does RUN better than RUN.


It's why my inventory is maxed out. I use defense gear with -PDT, have stonskin set to give stronger stoneskin stacked with protect V and Phalanx, with Regen V, some Aoe lower damage on a few DD lightly. Instead of wasting MP curing them on a boss I know won't deal massive damage fast, I let Regen cure instead while I do other tasks.

This is why I spent 6 hours a day or more everyday practicing my skills, knowing my timers, and figuring out when to do certain tasks if all else fails.

My inventory is nearly maxed too.


RDM with Fast cast might only stun every 35 Seconds but they have paralyze, blind, Addle to make up for it. Chainspell stun with relic +2 body give 20 seconds more to CS which is perfect for boss at 10% to 5% HP left if something goes wrong and need to stall to give fallen members chance to get up.

At this time, whm can land all those enfeebles. Bard can cover the refresh, and RDM is severely lacking in the m.acc department when it comes to stun (not at the moment, because of the m.acc on weapons, but new delve will reset that).


But other jobs should be contributing as well.

I just see too many people being assigned to one or two task than knowing when to contribute their all every second of the fight. Following robotic orders.

And Scholar with high INT, MAB, Hailstorm, Cream puff, using Ebullence and Kausta does massive DOT damage. And I still don't see scholars do that.

I can do it on Mikey and probably kill it with only Kaustra that's how powerful it is. And people think Scholar is worthless after regain nerf.....

Literally you can see HP dropping off Mikey if you watched.

I did Kaustra on Hurkan the day DJ took me. Boss died in 15 minutes at 35% HP. Given a JP Scholar was spamming Kaustra too.

I would never use thief to be damage dealer. I'd use them as pullers, steal enmity off WHM or SCH even if they have to die to keep the main healer alive, although followed by stealing enmity, using Bully could spare seconds, Feint, SATA onto main tanker.

Imagine with all scholar buffs including Regen V and Embrava plus Alexandrite perfect defense. Bard and COR buffs up too. Blink or occultation on top of that.

How can you not survive long enough to massacre and deal some decent damage within that time window?

Which is why I still don't understand parties cycling 3 bards before and during a boss fight for 6 songs >.>

If people did not discriminate others for playing a job, they would learn to make use of every jobs skills, abilities than resort to robotic setups assigning 1-2 task per person and hitting WS every time TP hits 100% in hopes that everyone could take down the boss before people start wiping out....,

And then when DEVs announce how strange setups like RNG, DRG was part of a team that took down a WR boss first wouldn't be wondering how its possible.

Every job has potential to be powerful. You just don't see it because too many people would never invite them leaving people not to play those jobs therefore never showing anyone the full potential of what they can do.

Too many people assume if you cannot DPS higher than someone else, the job is useless.

A Dragoon saved my life healing me with her Wyvern when no other Mage tossed me a cure when I ran out of MP CS cures, enfeebles, stuns....

And then I wonder why people laugh at dragoons making use of the abilities they have. She wasn't following robotic orders, she was paying attention and saved me at the moment no one else did.

[Daemon]

Uhg, Scholar is not DD. if you read my post, the point of what I said. You do learn various things playing solo in Abby regardless if you are capped or not. Using atmas, cruors buffs, temps or not, you have the ability to push your character beyond the limits of how you play outside of Abby.

I spent several days testing out magic reduction gear playing solo as a bard, WHM, geo, run, RDM, SCH, BLM to see what atmas, or without atmas the difference in magic reduction.

As for practice. You mean to tell me you see several people purposely join Taxet, and all other low level NMs in delve intentionally regardless of passing all items. Or have Kis, for the sake of practice while helping others? Kill a boss a million times testing out different gear sets, setting macros and swapping out gears.

Playing WoE for practice and not for the items?

Team up every week with LS to do every event playing any and every job without discrimination? You purposely invite Summoners, Pups, Beastmasters, Dragoons, Rangers to any and every event?

People only think max DPS is the only way to go.

I say its a combination of various details that make greater outcomes.

When party member only limited to 1 or 2 task, they limit themselves and expect to win just standing there following the 1-2 tasks.

This is where multiple jobs doing multiple tasks together as a team flowing steadily over time makes up for parties following robotic orders, wiping, wasting time recovering.

Everyone who only focus on DPS and use parsing are power addicts that can end up putting the entire team at risk by not sacrificing some DPS for -PDT gear. If 12-14 people get hit by AoE at once, that entire alliance is expecting mages to recover those people and sometimes it can't be done fast enough leading people to wipe out.

Some DDs also don't pay attention and switch over -PDT gears like rings, earrings, waist, neck at moments when boss TP to reduce damage. Which then leaves mages wasting unnecessary MP.

When I play WHM. I use techniques other than just buff and Cure.

From spamming spells that people don't even use like Cura
1,2,3 in small situations like fighting normal monsters that AoE.

I cure tanker and Flash every time I see monster about to use TP skill so tanker have stoneskin up and flash reduces accuracy and blinds.

I also have and make use of Maytr and Devotion. Have Mystic boon unlocked in case I need to swap to -PDT gear pop to wing and WS off a normal mob and can tank boss or mobs decent enough to stall a few seconds that could make a difference including being able to take a few hits in case enmity is generated enough to make a boss turn on me.

Have practiced reflex of casting bar spells the second I see a mob casting from one element to another.

Point is, I don't test damage on a Mage job as if I'm going to melee. I test and practice all skills, ability to know what the job I'm playing can do in various situations.

Content implementation is on going. Not a one time done deal that leaves jobs in a permanent state of irrelevance.

[FrankReynolds]

Uhg, Scholar is not DD. if you read my post, the point of what I said. You do learn various things playing solo in Abby regardless if you are capped or not. Using atmas, cruors buffs, temps or not, you have the ability to push your character beyond the limits of how you play outside of Abby.

I spent several days testing out magic reduction gear playing solo as a bard, WHM, geo, run, RDM, SCH, BLM to see what atmas, or without atmas the difference in magic reduction.

As for practice. You mean to tell me you see several people purposely join Taxet, and all other low level NMs in delve intentionally regardless of passing all items. Or have Kis, for the sake of practice while helping others? Kill a boss a million times testing out different gear sets, setting macros and swapping out gears.

Playing WoE for practice and not for the items?

Team up every week with LS to do every event playing any and every job without discrimination? You purposely invite Summoners, Pups, Beastmasters, Dragoons, Rangers to any and every event?

People only think max DPS is the only way to go.

I say its a combination of various details that make greater outcomes.

When party member only limited to 1 or 2 task, they limit themselves and expect to win just standing there following the 1-2 tasks.

This is where multiple jobs doing multiple tasks together as a team flowing steadily over time makes up for parties following robotic orders, wiping, wasting time recovering.

Everyone who only focus on DPS and use parsing are power addicts that can end up putting the entire team at risk by not sacrificing some DPS for -PDT gear. If 12-14 people get hit by AoE at once, that entire alliance is expecting mages to recover those people and sometimes it can't be done fast enough leading people to wipe out.

Some DDs also don't pay attention and switch over -PDT gears like rings, earrings, waist, neck at moments when boss TP to reduce damage. Which then leaves mages wasting unnecessary MP.

When I play WHM. I use techniques other than just buff and Cure.

From spamming spells that people don't even use like Cura
1,2,3 in small situations like fighting normal monsters that AoE.

I cure tanker and Flash every time I see monster about to use TP skill so tanker have stoneskin up and flash reduces accuracy and blinds.

I also have and make use of Maytr and Devotion. Have Mystic boon unlocked in case I need to swap to -PDT gear pop to wing and WS off a normal mob and can tank boss or mobs decent enough to stall a few seconds that could make a difference including being able to take a few hits in case enmity is generated enough to make a boss turn on me.

Have practiced reflex of casting bar spells the second I see a mob casting from one element to another.

Point is, I don't test damage on a Mage job as if I'm going to melee. I test and practice all skills, ability to know what the job I'm playing can do in various situations.

Content implementation is on going. Not a one time done deal that leaves jobs in a permanent state of irrelevance.

Facts:


Monsters have set amounts of HP
Events have time limits
Damage done / time = DPS
Monster HP / time remaining = required DPS
If DPS < required DPS then you lose
The higher your DPS, the better your chances of winning


It's pretty simple really. Unless a job increases the groups DPS through other means (enhancement spells, curing, stunning, etc.) more than just bringing the job that directly does the most DPS, then bringing the indirect DPS job only hurts your group.

People bring those jobs when they are testing things and then once they know the ropes, they maximize efficiency.

[Daemon]

Facts:


Monsters have set amounts of HP
Events have time limits
Damage done / time = DPS
Monster HP / time remaining = required DPS
If DPS < required DPS then you lose
The higher your DPS, the better your chances of winning


It's pretty simple really. Unless a job increases the groups DPS through other means (enhancement spells, curing, stunning, etc.) more than just bringing the job that directly does the most DPS, then bringing the indirect DPS job only hurts your group.

People bring those jobs when they are testing things and then once they know the ropes, they maximize efficiency.

I've seen according to you "uneffecient" players play more effecient than your standard "effecient player" for having skills, proper gear although may not be the best, but had the basic down first.

It's really simple though. You base your judgement of a player according to DPS. I guess skill and gear play no part in how a person controls the wheel.

Then again if an effecient player with highest DPS dies while your effecient player lives for carting -PDT gear. Then your effecient player is weakened, or double weakened either can't fight or keeps dying trying to fight weakened. While your uneffecient player constantly survives dealing the same damage at a pace.

Kinda like how the turtle beat the hare.

[Demon6324236]

You are utterly hopeless and sound as everything at this point in FFXI is broken and without challenge. Every time I read your posts, I get the impression events are way worse than what they turn out to be when we do team up only to hear that "oh the event was easy that time."

I'm still waiting to this day to see such horrible events you make it sound to be so I can understand what you are talking about.Because you hardly do the things I am talking about. I still have yet to see you shout for Yumcax, told you like 3 days ago to let me know when you are gonna do it, so you can show me how easy & simple it is, but nothing has happened yet. I have complete faith that you have never fought a Delve boss, ever, at all, correct me if I am wrong. So the primary pieces of content I brought up in all of that, yeah, you haven't seen how horrible it is, because you don't do it. You almost never play, and don't give me some crap about not having the time, this isn't me saying you should play more, its me saying that if you don't see it, it doesn't mean it isn't there, you just aren't there when it is. Just because I don't see other planets in the sky each night doesn't mean they don't exist, I just don't see them, and that's similar to you, you don't see these events because your not around when they are.

Again I say, shout for Yumcax, starting 4PM EST pick any day of the week you wish when you have the most time, and I will sit there, in party with you, from the time we start till it dies, or you give up. Then you can give me your judgment on if I was exaggerating the truth or if the event is better than myself and others believe it is.


Unless everyone was maxed out with the best gear and skill and then failing and never landing WS, spells accurately then I could believe you.So unless the absolute best fails at an event using insane methods that slow them down, due to those methods, you do not believe me? That's how it sounds, which means, I have to be the absolute best, even with gear that drops from the NM I'm fighting, so that I can kill the NM, because I am supposed to use strategies your talking about rather than zerging it, k.


Then again unless I see everyone failing events because zero techniques and strategies don't work then the same applies. My LS is Delve LS. You act like I'm some noob who has barely even played any SoA content.

Then again you act like I don't know jack about FFXI.No, I act like half the things you say sound insane and stupid. Like mentioning TPing on other mobs and WSing the NM, or holding back just so PLD can be a glorified meat bag when DDs can tank just fine if need be so that the event can be a success, or like mentioning Shock Spikes in any argument as though it were relevant, among other things. You act like mob WSs are just deadly because of an army of people on it, like a PLD could tank it all without stuns and everything would be fine or something. Simply put, you talk about things in a way they aren't, and act as though they are, which is bad, and looks stupid/ignorant, that's why I act like you don't know anything about SoA, because so far as I have ever seen, you don't.


I know I did not waste all my time building my character, maxing my skills, collecting ton of gear sets only to be irrelevant overnight.

I don't blame SE for not being able to get items or defeat a boss, I blame the team work and lack of properly prepared parties, organization, strategy for this.In some cases, you would be right, in others you would be wrong. In the case of the primary reason for this thread, WKs, you are completely wrong, due to the fact no matter your participation, your reward will always be the same, 1 WK item, 1 Synth item, and no amount of work has ever seemed to make any damn bit of difference, at all.


Just because a pebble or log drops, I don't play WR to earn Gil or expect any compensation for an event if I'm after gear that can improve the overall power of my character.You expect to waste your time for nothing at all, ok, so you do understand WKs, but at the same time your content with horrible gameplay, I understand now.


So until I actually see how bad you make it sound every time, I just can't and won't believe nor hop on to the negative hopeless bandwagon with the rest that agree with you.I use this opportunity to remind you of the aforementioned challenge of your shouting for a Yumcax starting at 4PM EST on the day of your choosing.


I've only been playing in my JP LS about 10 years practicing with them with various jobs at every event but I guess that has no value compared to joining random groups with people I don't know. I mean according to it sounds as if its impossible to train ourselves to be quick, to the point, accurately work as a team and figure out together how to improve and learn our mistakes.In the way you are talking about, yes, it is impossible, statistically.


You make it sound like it does not matter and does not make any difference. When I know it does because we know what we are doing than playing with people that are clueless and "just go along with it following the common strategy all parties follow because we don't have time or the ability to take risk trying something else with people that don't click"It matters, it makes a difference, it doesn't change facts.


Just because old content mobs don't compare with newer content mobs doesn't mean its impossible to practice. Regardless if its WoE, Abby, Those areas can provide good practice in figuring out which gear sets to carry, how to avoid certain death, improve damage, accuracy, foods etc.No, it cant do much of that at all. Avoid death? Stun, improve damage? Doesn't help, Adoulin mobs have much more DEF and MDEF as well as EVA & MEVA on top of being higher leveled with more VIT/AGI/INT/MND/CHR and so on, I can test as much as I want, but it means nothing. In Abyssea I can go throw down some 6k DMG CDCs on RDM, I can do 5k with Req, I can dominate NMs taking next to no time. I used Req in my WS gear without food or anything, same buffs as in Abyssea excluding its own specific buffs the area provides, on the T5 NM Crab in Foret, I hit for 700, not 5k, weirdly enough, that's low damage by compare to the 2.5k DMG WSs our DRK was doing. In Aby, my WS would be better than the DRK, seems my testing failed, had I used a bit more accuracy gear, some accuracy food, and maybe even some attack gear/food, I could have done better, but alas, my Abyssea testing did not show it would be needed.

There is very little you can learn in Abyssea that sticks outside of it as well.


If 20 minutes is only given to fight and kill Tojil, then its meant to be taken down in less. Try taking down Mingyl from Flux 15 in WoE and then tell me if the skill and effort doesn't compare.I have, it doesn't, a coordinated party of 3 can kill it, 1 MNK, 1 WHM, 1 Stun SCH.


I fail to see how Mingyl cannot compare to Delve bosses.Have you fought a Delve boss? I rest my case.

[Demon6324236]

I've seen according to you "uneffecient" players play more effecient than your standard "effecient player" for having skills, proper gear although may not be the best, but had the basic down first.So you saw someone underutilizing their potential by intentionally holding back, and compared them to someone else you believes meets the criteria to be an efficient, or rather, good player, who actually sucked? Ill explain this in a bit...


It's really simple though. You base your judgement of a player according to DPS. I guess skill and gear play no part in how a person controls the wheel.Skill and gear are part of what gives someone a high DPS amount, as such, they play the most intricate part of ones DPS, and thus overall abilities.


Then again if an effecient player with highest DPS dies while your effecient player lives for carting -PDT gear. Then your effecient player is weakened, or double weakened either can't fight or keeps dying trying to fight weakened. While your uneffecient player constantly survives dealing the same damage at a pace.Ok, here is that earlier explanation.

Yes, a slowly killing DD is better than a retarded DD, but that slowly killing DD can kill much faster and better if they have a brain and use it properly, because they can swap out that PDT gear for TP gear when the enemy is using weak attacks and they are not in danger. Once danger presents itself in the form of a TP move or the DD having low HP, they change back to PDT again to survive. This is DDing 101, easy to grasp, simple, concepts which any decent or good DD should know.

[detlef]

Oh, you know what else I love? When someone says, "hey WKR is what fine, suck it up babies. By the way, I'm playing another game now. I only log on to FFXI once a week, but I will still post strongly against you as if I still have a stake in this game."

[OmnysValefor]

I feel bad for even getting into this argument Daemon. You clearly play the game for different reasons than I do. I'm not saying you're worse or better, just different.

[Daemon]

I feel bad for even getting into this argument Daemon. You clearly play the game for different reasons than I do. I'm not saying you're worse or better, just different.

It's ok, now you know that not everyone plays for the same reasons or play the same. I have JP LS and NA LS. Both play extremely different.

NA players select only certain jobs. My JP LS doesn't care as long as everyone has fun and everyone is included. If item drops, everyone is happy that the person got it. If it doesn't drop we all gather together and light up fireworks for accomplishing the kill.

NA players grip about who got what and who didn't get what they wanted. They like to share. Help as a team. We sometimes do different limbus zones each party but join the same party for chat. All coins went to leader so they could make ultima and omega events.

My JP LS never gripes about losing or what we get. We just hope that everyone was included and everyone has fun.

NA LSs don't want players that are gimp.

My JP LS members always apologize that they were not as powerful as others but everyone who more powerful find the need to be the seniority Make sure the lower levels can get what they need so they can achieve power and catch up.

In 10 years in my JP LS I've only had the opportunity to lot 3 big items. The rest I pass every single item so that the lower levels who don't have the same skill, ability to play or accomplish more than me or the rest of us who has more or have the independent ability to do it on our own

Honestly I just don't care. I just love how they are so friendly, and how they make the event great. I've learned to see the events we do for what they are.

Spending time with each other and doing stuff.

Everyone is grateful, thankful and appreciative that we act like a real family who help each other learn the game. They never discriminate base of jobs or power.

I've passed tons upon tons of Umbral Marrow for LS members working on Relic They are the ones who only have 2-3 AF3 gear VS me who has AF3 sets complete fully upgraded.

Difference? I'm not working on Relic weapon path and i don't need it.

JP players in my LS do not put items, Gil or personal needs before others. They are always asking if anyone including me being the only NA member in my LS If I ever need anything to let them know.

I just happen to know that this is a game. People come first. Items are virtual materials that can tear apart friendships and lead to discriminating others for self gain, selfish desires.

It's like once we reach a certain level or a certain power, its our duty to be like the older brother and sister who take care of the little younger brother or sister. Why? Because what we do effect the community and if we never help, those who fall behind will never catch up nor be able to do anything fun like us.

Part of making the game fun isn't just the content. It's you as an individual that can make it fun for yourself and others.

This is why I understand Asian community after all I'm Korean. We play together for fun, friendship, and giving people we play with a reason to enjoy the game for a much higher reward than items, Gil and materials. Our reward is about feeling happy we could do something good for others.

That's a far better reward than some item taking up inventory space and being replaced or becoming irrelevant after the next few updates.


I rather choose people I can do stuff together with, help them knowing that I have the power to help. Give people a good feeling of being happy that they accomplished something. Drop whatever I'm doing to pay attention to someone else's needs than my own. And when people do it for me, this is the better reward.

When I ask people if they wanna do stuff and they never say no. That's far more rewarding.

If they need help and I can do it, seeing then happy that they got their item or gear, quest done makes me happy that my time was spend with them and not about me.

So yeah we do play for different reasons.

And this is why I don't login and play as much as before. I'm just sick of seeing how the community has become so selfish and only care about virtual items than playing together for fun.

So many people tell me OMG I spent months killing Kirin 22 times, Byakko 30 times, this boss that boss and it drops on the first run with you.

Maybe its a blessing that comes back to you when you do things for others with good intentions.

All I know is once you let go of caring about items and start caring about others. You start to see the game different and have a different outcome in everything you do.

[FrankReynolds]

It's ok, now you know that not everyone plays for the same reasons or play the same. I have JP LS and NA LS. Both play extremely different.

NA players select only certain jobs. My JP LS doesn't care as long as everyone has fun and everyone is included. If item drops, everyone is happy that the person got it. If it doesn't drop we all gather together and light up fireworks for accomplishing the kill.

NA players grip about who got what and who didn't get what they wanted.

My JP LS never gripes about losing or what we get. We just hope that everyone was included and everyone has fun.

NA LSs don't want players that are gimp.

My JP LS members always apologize that they were not as powerful as others but everyone who more powerful find the need to be the seniority Make sure the lower levels can get what they need so they can achieve power and catch up.

In 10 years in my JP LS I've only had the opportunity to lot 3 big items. The rest I pass every single item so that the lower levels who don't have the same skill, ability to play or accomplish more than me or the rest of us who has more or have the independent ability to do it on our own.

Everyone is grateful, thankful and appreciative that we act like a real family who help each other learn the game. They never discriminate base of jobs or power.

I've passed tons upon tons of Umbral Marrow for LS members working on Relic They are the ones who only have 2-3 AF3 gear VS me who has AF3 sets complete fully upgraded.

Difference? I'm not working on Relic weapon path and i don't need it.

JP players in my LS do not put items, Gil or personal needs before others. They are always asking if anyone including me being the only NA member in my LS If I ever need anything to let them know.

I just happen to know that this is a game. People come first. Items are virtual materials that can tear apart friendships and lead to discriminating others for self gain, selfish desires.

It's like once we reach a certain level or a certain power, its our duty to be like the older brother and sister who take care of the little younger brother or sister. Why? Because what we do effect the community and if we never help, those who fall behind will never catch up nor be able to do anything fun like us.

Part of making the game fun isn't just the content. It's you as an individual that can make it fun for yourself and others.

This is why I understand Asian community after all I'm Korean. We play together for fun, friendship, and giving people we play with a reason to enjoy the game for a much higher reward than items, Gil and materials. Our reward is about feeling happy we could do something good for others.

That's a far better reward than some item taking up inventory space and being replaced or becoming irrelevant after the next few updates.


I rather choose people I can do stuff together with, help them knowing that I have to power to help. Give people a good feeling of being happy that they accomplished something. Drop whatever I'm doing to pay attention to someone else's needs than my own. And when people do it for me, this is the better reward.

When I ask people if they wanna do stuff and they never say no. That's far more rewarding.

If they need help and I can do it, seeing then happy that they got their item or gear, quest done makes me happy that my time was spend with them and not about me.

So yeah we do play for different reasons.

And this is why I don't login and play as much as before. I'm just sick of seeing how the community has become so selfish and only care about virtual items than playing together for fun.

Seriously... Stop it. I have friends in Japan. I built my first character when literally everyone in the game was Japanese, before the NA launch. I had to learn a little kanji, follow screen shots and copy / paste a fake JP address into the registration form to set up my original account and then spent years paying with Web Money because they won't take my american credit card. You are not the only guy who ever befriended an Asian person here.

Japanese people are just like any other group of people. A couple of winners and a whole bunch of losers. They are no better and no worse than People who speak English. As a matter of fact, a lot of them speak English. There are English speaking countries / people in every part of the globe. Lumping us all together like that is straight up racist and is somewhat ironic in the context of your rant about JP superiority.

There are NA (Whatever that means) linkshells who don't care if you don't come on the best jobs too. They are called "social shells" and they don't beat things like Tojil very often, but they enjoy the opportunity to do bosses on jobs like dancer and summoner. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem is that just like in real life, most people aren't good at or don't desire to make enough friends to fill a linkshell. Most people have a few good buddies and that's about it. That's why people join linkshells to do events. They need set rules to govern how loot / events are handled because they don't have enough friends to just go do stuff all willy-nilly like "Hey guys! Let's all get on our favorite jobs and do some delve bosses!".

How well do you speak Japanese? Are you sure all those people in your JP shell don't have other serious shells that they go do events with and then just pop on that shell when they wanna mess around? Because I can tell you right now, the JP shells on Cerberus that I see are strictly business. They don't bring people with weak gear on odd ball jobs to events. I find it very hard to believe that your shell is advancing at a steady pace by having everyone come thief and blue mage and dancer and stuff. I'm pretty sure they optimize their parties just like we do.

[Daemon]

Seriously... Stop it. I have friends in Japan. I built my first character when literally everyone in the game was Japanese, before the NA launch. I had to learn a little kanji, follow screen shots and copy / paste a fake JP address into the registration form to set up my original account and then spent years paying with Web Money because they won't take my american credit card. You are not the only guy who ever befriended an Asian person here.

Japanese people are just like any other group of people. A couple of winners and a whole bunch of losers. They are no better and no worse than People who speak English. As a matter of fact, a lot of them speak English. There are English speaking countries / people in every part of the globe. Lumping us all together like that is straight up racist and is somewhat ironic in the context of your rant about JP superiority.

There are NA (Whatever that means) linkshells who don't care if you don't come on the best jobs too. They are called "social shells" and they don't beat things like Tojil very often, but they enjoy the opportunity to do bosses on jobs like dancer and summoner. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem is that just like in real life, most people aren't good at or don't desire to make enough friends to fill a linkshell. Most people have a few good buddies and that's about it. That's why people join linkshells to do events. They need set rules to govern how loot / events are handled because they don't have enough friends to just go do stuff all willy-nilly like "Hey guys! Let's all get on our favorite jobs and do some delve bosses!".

How well do you speak Japanese? Are you sure all those people in your JP shell don't have other serious shells that they go do events with and then just pop on that shell when they wanna mess around? Because I can tell you right now, the JP shells on Cerberus that I see are strictly business. They don't bring people with weak gear on odd ball jobs to events. I find it very hard to believe that your shell is advancing at a steady pace by having everyone come thief and blue mage and dancer and stuff. I'm pretty sure they optimize their parties just like we do.

On my first day I joined FFXI. I met a JP player named Moichi. He gave me a little Gil to buy a pair of armor. He started taking me around Windurst and try to teach me how to quest and do missions. He took me outside and taught me how to level up by playing a low level job so we could duo together.

Many times he had to change to a different job in order to play with me.

Everyday we logged in and played together.

His main job was BLM.

He would take me to different maps and protect me along the way when we went to areas beyond my level.

Everyday he would walk me to my Mog house and say good night.

As each day went by he taught me how to farm, do crafting and take me to new areas according to my progress. He took me to each craig to get telepoints.

When he brought me to Jeuno, he took me to get my keys for Kahzam airship pass.

Everyday he would ask me what my level was and always check my gear. He would send me armor he crafted for me at certain levels.

Many times I opened my Mog house and found Meat mithkabobs, silent oils, prism powders.

When it came time to do certain missions, he asked all his JP friends to come help.

As time went by I was catching up to his level. I wondered why he did not go level up himself.

Sometimes I would fall asleep while we were playing together and the next day I found myself in town. He would warp me back to town so I would not be killed and lose exp.

Sometimes when he was on another job, he would go back to town and come back to warp me when I fell asleep.

It got to the point that I fell asleep so many times, he would laugh at me.

Many times when I died he shouted for a raise, or asked one of his JP friends if the could come raise me.

Eventually I leveled up higher than him and soon after that I was leaving him behind. And then I started making more Gil than him and had to teach him how I made Gil.

As I reached the level cap I started getting bored and waited for HNMs to pop. Many end game LS told me if I tell them when pop happens and they claim it, I could join and lot ABJ. Rhey asked me to camp all week until HQ popped.

But those LS were evil and said they lied to me and told me to go run off and cry after boss was killed.

I got so mad that people on the server were so mean. Greedy. Rude. But this was end game.

So decided to move to the new server when SE implemented it.

Once I moved I realized that I was worse than the HNM LS people being rude to me. I left behind my friend Moichi and all his friends who helped me all because I got caught up in end game greed and that changed my attitude. I realized that my anger made me turn into something I hated most.

Inconsiderate and selfish by thinking about the items than the people who put me first.


You see my friend Moichi didn't level up because he was too busy helping me. He one day told me when Japan announced FFXI opening servers to USA, he was so happy and excited because he wanted to have American friends and in Japan he never have the opportunity to interact with American people.

I felt so bad for my mistake that I lost interest in playing FFXI because I left behind the people who did no wrong to me.

Later on I made a new character to login and chat with my JP friends to let them know I was sorry and that I made a mistake. I got angry and that changed me.

As new expansions came out I logged on my main and played here and there but wasn't so interested in playing the game as I use to.

I was sad that I was one of the first NA friends my JP friend ever had and I did not give him the best impression I should have.

And when I came back to my sever I promised myself that I would never make that mistake again and think about items over people because there are many beautiful people in the world that can give amazing friendships and doing stuff together is much more fun than being part of the end game groups who used me, took advantage of me and changed me.

I promised that I would help others and appreciate everyone I meet because although we all hide behind a sprite. That doesn't mean the person behind the sprite deserves to be treated as if they don't matter.

As for the JP LS I'm in now. I met them later after Mouchi and we use to farm NMs like Amikiri, and do Zilart and Dyna.

When I came back to my server, they welcomed me back and invited me to their LS. It's because they treated me like this. I always have fun offering to help them and all LS members they invited.

One day one of the leaders told me everyone in LS are irl friends but they all grew up and now they work and only have time to play a few hours twice a week. So when I see them I always join and pass all items. They always ask me if there's any items I want and I always tell them no. I just join them for the adventure and because I want to help.

I learned to appreciate my JP friends. Something that I didn't do a long time ago because I got caught up into the game and myself. And this is why I play the game different now.

And it's very sad when I spent many hours a day trying to help NA players only for them to say thank you so much. It's so rare to see high levels these days help others and we appreciate it.

[OmnysValefor]

I tried to extend an olive branch and you immediately turned to condescension.


NA players select only certain jobs. My JP LS doesn't care as long as everyone has fun and everyone is included. If item drops, everyone is happy that the person got it. If it doesn't drop we all gather together and light up fireworks for accomplishing the kill.

While kill-oriented, many EGLS's will include those that are more of a "friend" than a member. We don't go for blood, we go for fun and for us, fun is winning.


NA players grip about who got what and who didn't get what they wanted. They like to share. Help as a team. We sometimes do different limbus zones each party but join the same party for chat. All coins went to leader so they could make ultima and omega events.

Yeah I remember when we killed our first tojil, it was pre-determined that our perma-monks would get Oats first. After getting the first kill, you know what the 2/4 monks that didn't get oats immediately did?!?!?! They went to the npc and bought them, even though they were guaranteed to have them in a few kills..


My JP LS never gripes about losing or what we get. We just hope that everyone was included and everyone has fun.

NA LSs don't want players that are gimp.

Actually, let me tell you one of the reasons I built Ochain was because it allows me to carry people in older content. In a lot of older stuff, I'm nigh-unkillable. If someone needed help in abyssea and really had a poor job selection, I went pld and solo'd it while they contributed what they could.

Our LS invited people freely when we farmed beads. They also remembered people who helped us work towards the win in the past, even if they weren't there for the win (people outside LS) and prioritized getting them a win as thanks.


Spending time with each other and doing stuff.

See, a lot of people think every progressed LS must be full of ***hats, but you know what? We spend time with each other and do stuff, it makes no difference that our "stuff" is building towards the best way to defeat a boss. We also do stuff outside raid time too, in smaller groups. One of our mnks needed to level /run so I Fell-Cleaved for him, for free.

I can't read any more of it, you think so lowly of anyone who thinks different.

Learn to recognize a gesture of peace when you see one.

[Fynlar]

Yeah I remember when we killed our first tojil, it was pre-determined that our perma-monks would get Oats first. After getting the first kill, you know what the 2/4 monks that didn't get oats immediately did?!?!?! They went to the npc and bought them, even though they were guaranteed to have them in a few kills..

The day I first beat Tojil, I was there for 4 kills before the group stopped. No oaties dropped :<

So yeah, I ended up buying mine @_@

[Daemon]

I tried to extend an olive branch and you immediately turned to condescension.



While kill-oriented, many EGLS's will include those that are more of a "friend" than a member. We don't go for blood, we go for fun and for us, fun is winning.



Yeah I remember when we killed our first tojil, it was pre-determined that our perma-monks would get Oats first. After getting the first kill, you know what the 2/4 monks that didn't get oats immediately did?!?!?! They went to the npc and bought them, even though they were guaranteed to have them in a few kills..



Actually, let me tell you one of the reasons I built Ochain was because it allows me to carry people in older content. In a lot of older stuff, I'm nigh-unkillable. If someone needed help in abyssea and really had a poor job selection, I went pld and solo'd it while they contributed what they could.

Our LS invited people freely when we farmed beads. They also remembered people who helped us work towards the win in the past, even if they weren't there for the win (people outside LS) and prioritized getting them a win as thanks.



See, a lot of people think every progressed LS must be full of ***hats, but you know what? We spend time with each other and do stuff, it makes no difference that our "stuff" is building towards the best way to defeat a boss. We also do stuff outside raid time too, in smaller groups. One of our mnks needed to level /run so I Fell-Cleaved for him, for free.

I can't read any more of it, you think so lowly of anyone who thinks different.

Learn to recognize a gesture of peace when you see one.

I can't help it but I've help so many make broken promises of let's do salvage together so we both can get gear. Only for them to bail out after getting everything they wanted. Guiding me to certain areas where their items dropped. Because I'm clueless when it comes to doing quests, etc.

Almost 90% of the gear I own was left over drops people didn't need or want, or I paid people Gil to help me farm.

Offer to let me lot a +2 back in Abby days if I used my Kis only to take all the items and disband after I popped.

I've been jaded by so many people who gave me innocent stories and turn around and be 2 faced. So if you think I'm only thinking so lowly. You are wrong my friend. I don't assume everyone is this way. I give everyone chances until I come to the conclusion of realizing what agenda people really have.

And many times I've seen people act one way up until the point they accomplished their goal and move on.

I've always ended up to the same conclusion of now that I've done what they wanted, go solo it yourself because no one is reliable or willing to do things with me unless they get something out of it.

I've joined LS where I used all of my boss pops only to be told its not my turn to Lot. Then end up leaving those LS because the same people get to lot all items almost every run but use my Kis in the process.

It's not about think everyone is bad players, its about not seeing enough good players to keep me interested in logging in.

And I don't speak on behalf of ALL JP's but every single one I've played with never did this to me like the people I've encountered in the NA Community.

Yeah this one time I joined Botulus Rex. They made me spend 500k on displaces, then kick me out after party wiped because I did not proc a BLM spell when half the alliance wiped out leaving me to switch over to light arts and raise people.

No warning kick me out and say "Learn to Scholar."

[SpankWustler]

Based on my very limited experience with Japanese people, all Japanese people walk around in groups of eight in order to carry giant metal weiners around on palanquins as if giant metal weiners will be the god-kings that lead us into a new era of peace and love and giant metal weiners.

Unfortunately for all those giant metal wieners in the world, this is because of my limited experience with a population rather than anything that's actually true for a large number of that population.

[Daemon]

From my experience, most Japanese players are group of in real life friends that do everything together. Trust each other, and stick together like family. Helping each other reach goals.

Its basically language barrier and cultural difference and we tend to guess how others are based upon our own experiences interacting with people.

We maybe open to invite new people we don't know and give people chances. Some groups may never invite others unless they know you.

From the groups I've met including my JP LS. They don't invite random people because its like you hang out and do stuff together all the time and then a new guy who you cannot communicate with makes it hard to understand each other.

Its not that Japanese people are racist. Which some players assume if one bad apple is there, most likely all of them are. Especially if you encounter something more than once.

I could tell my LS doesn't invite just anyone. Maybe for several reasons but not for the reasons most will think.

The only reason why they invited me is because I've partied with the leaders and did events with them several times including never bailing out on them, staying til the very end and placed others needs before my own.

Building a personal friendship over time than just join one or two times and move on. And many players still don't get that. And patience is the most important thing when it comes to building a friendship with anyone.

But today's environment is too fast pace to offer that opportunity. We join instant groups and expect to click after 2 or 3 times partying together in events. And it just doesn't work that way when getting to know JPs.

The same as some LS won't instantly invite you unless they know you can commit and know you are not an ass.

Amplify the difference when it comes to knowing JPs though. They pay attention to details on how you act. Are you going to help others or expect to help yourself. Do you commit to long term goals? Are you self gain?

Sometimes long term over observations tend to show more than short term. Whose to say you won't act like a good person in the beginning and get comfortable later on showing your true self?

Most of the time people start off good because the friendship is new, but true intentions begin to show later once you get to know someone over time.

Then again NA community interact with all types of people all over the world from any and every culture on a daily basis. So we are more open minded in a sense.

Go to Japan and you'll most likely see only Japanese with a handful of foreigners.

[Spectreman]

I'm sorry to tell you this but WK was already forgotten by SE.

[Umichi]

That's not legitimate tanking, and this is even only feasible--if it's feasible anymore (haven't seen this since abyssea) because you're handicapping your dd's. All the phrases to use, "holding back", "handicapping", they're all understaements.



In the rare instance where someone messed something up while I was supertanking in delve, let me tell you that I could hold solid hate on two NMs (that happened once, one whm flashed the cricket, and the other whm body agrod the butterflies to "bring them to me"). I did fine and dandy until I hit hate cap.

You see, that's what happens, after enough time, healers have built up so much enmity that they pull away. They can even pull out of 8 or 10 DDs landing several hits a second.

Enmity is broken.



SCH/BLM? In between stuns, stack dot spells, toss in dispels if necessary, and maybe a few quick casting low tier nukes.



Short of diamondhide, I believe all those are single target and need diffusion, a 10 minute cooldown.



Not even touching how far-reaching this one is.



Bosses will so reliably resist a dancer's stuns that no reasonable group would depend on them. They also depend on melee accuracy to even land the hit. SCH can stun twice as fast as dancer with strats, and just as fast once strats are gone.



Yes, they can, but they suffer from being probably the weakest damage dealer.



Aside from the enfeebling side-effects, my aegis is damn near immune to magic damage and tanks a hit incomparably better than a RUN. I cleared 1150 defense with Defender, and no food. I could bust a taco and probably tap 1350.

If you were an NM computer and some enemy is healing the person your fighting because he pisses you off. do you A) continue fighting the person who is not dieing? or B) run after the squishy person whos keping the other one alive... and yes the NPC's are like that... you don't know all that there is to know about Enimt same as I don't know much about it either... they tell us a couple things and that makes you a master at it? 1) anyone who agroes monster gets put on a list. 2) depending on what you do you generate two types of enimity, one that degrades over tiem and one that stays put (I think) healing can remove you off the NM's list although the mechanics behind it aren't to specific... that's about all we know.. aside from obvious stuff like higher enimity means a more likely chance that you'll get agro...

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure what any of the current mess in this topic has to do with Wildkeeper Rieves at this point but...


If you were an NM computer and some enemy is healing the person your fighting because he pisses you off. do you A) continue fighting the person who is not dieing? or B) run after the squishy person whos keping the other one alive... and yes the NPC's are like that... you don't know all that there is to know about Enimt same as I don't know much about it either... they tell us a couple things and that makes you a master at it? 1) anyone who agroes monster gets put on a list. 2) depending on what you do you generate two types of enimity, one that degrades over tiem and one that stays put (I think) healing can remove you off the NM's list although the mechanics behind it aren't to specific... that's about all we know.. aside from obvious stuff like higher enimity means a more likely chance that you'll get agro...

From as early as late 2007 (http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html), most exact mechanics of enmity have been rather well understood (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Enmity) by many players thanks to some tedious testing done by a handful of players.

TL;DR version of FFXI's enmity system and Omnys's complaint: If you're an NM, you attack whoever is hitting you in the face for the most damage. Pretty soon, enmity caps for everyone hitting you in face and you begin to spin around like a top. If you live long enough to proudly watch your NM grandchildren graduate whatever the NM equivalent of medical school is, then whoever is casting Cure III and Cure IV on the guy hitting you in the face has capped enmity as well.

Because hitting things in the face is an excellent way to accrue enmity and because the same enmity cap applies to everyone, Paladin or any other job meant to fill the tank role has an extremely small niche in FFXI.

Coincidentally, low colonization rate Wildkeeper Rieves are one of Paladin's very few uses currently. Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

[Daemon]

I'm not sure what any of the current mess in this topic has to do with Wildkeeper Rieves at this point but...



From as early as late 2007 (http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html), most exact mechanics of enmity have been rather well understood (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Enmity) by many players thanks to some tedious testing done by a handful of players.

TL;DR version of FFXI's enmity system and Omnys's complaint: If you're an NM, you attack whoever is hitting you in the face for the most damage. Pretty soon, enmity caps for everyone hitting you in face and you begin to spin around like a top. If you live long enough to proudly watch your NM grandchildren graduate whatever the NM equivalent of medical school is, then whoever is casting Cure III and Cure IV on the guy hitting you in the face has capped enmity as well.

Because hitting things in the face is an excellent way to accrue enmity and because the same enmity cap applies to everyone, Paladin or any other job meant to fill the tank role has an extremely small niche in FFXI.

Coincidentally, low colonization rate Wildkeeper Rieves are one of Paladin's very few uses currently. Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

So does that mean if you cap hate, your enmity levels will not fall down if you back off?

Further more isn't that why some bosses reset hate?

From what I understood from the beginning, controlling hate is something you practice as a team. If mages are generating enmity more than DD, its suppose to indicate that mages need to back off.

The problem with most events, people ignore this factor and assume everyone can just mass zerg mobs to death rather than setup a strategy and overcome this obstacle.

This is why goals are failed and parties are wiped out.

[OmnysValefor]

There are two types of enmity.

Volatile Enmity - This builds and fades with time.

Cumulative Enmity - This builds and stays. The only way to lose this enmity is to get hit or die. Curing generates cumulative enmity, which is why why it does hit a whm, it usually only hits them once, comes back and hits a melee once, and then goes to hit the whm once.

If you don't have a thf, there is nothing anyone can do at enmity cap but turn around and wait a ridiculous time for some of that enmity to fade.

And no Daemon, zerging this crap is the best way to handle it now. Seriously, every decent EGLS has access to, or could have, a well geared Paladin or Ninja. If tanking were worth the effort, we'd do it.

[OmnysValefor]

Coincidentally, low colonization rate Wildkeeper Rieves are one of Paladin's very few uses currently. Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

http://i.imgur.com/maX0MHy.png

[Daemon]

There are two types of enmity.

Volatile Enmity - This builds and fades with time.

Cumulative Enmity - This builds and stays. The only way to lose this enmity is to get hit or die. Curing generates cumulative enmity, which is why why it does hit a whm, it usually only hits them once, comes back and hits a melee once, and then goes to hit the whm once.

If you don't have a thf, there is nothing anyone can do at enmity cap but turn around and wait a ridiculous time for some of that enmity to fade.

And no Daemon, zerging this crap is the best way to handle it now. Seriously, every decent EGLS has access to, or could have, a well geared Paladin or Ninja. If tanking were worth the effort, we'd do it.

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming certain jobs are meant to be something their not.

If recast time is an issue then wouldn't it make sense to hire more of the same job and rotate?

People don't truly study jobs and bosses to figure out different strategies with the mindset of "this job is worthless because DPS is the only way to go, its not worth the time and effort"

Which to me is just a lazy excuse to get the fight over with as quick as possible. This is why I find partying with NA is boring.

JP parties use different techniques and study up on thinks like

Stand near the wall because ADL can push back players.
Zerg off regular mob to reduce enmity and make the fight messy.
Mass buff using SCH, SMN, COR, BRD to have invincibility in the beginning of the fight that could provide an advantage of getting a good head start.
Use certain jobs to rotate to accomplish Skillchains, enmity control, etc.

[Demon6324236]

I'm sorry to tell you this but WK was already forgotten by SE.If they forgot it, lets hope like hell they don't remember it or reinvent it once new areas come around... nah, don't think Ill hold my breath on that one.

[OmnysValefor]

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming jobs are meant to be something their not.

The problems with enmity right now.

- Hate cap is way too low.
- Hate cap exists. Really, it shouldn't.
- Tanks can't hit fast enough at hate cap. One reason monks tanked in abyssea was that they hit so fast and hard that when people were hate-capping, the fastest hard hitter kept pinging against hate cap and so took the most hits. Monks also happened to have the most hp, so it worked. Ninjas hit fast, not nearly as hard as monk though.
- Every DD accelerates hate far faster than a tank. They hit harder, and faster, especially compared to paladin.

It really, really, is not worth the trouble to try to pretend the job is useful.

Last time I had to tank on PLD, I went pld/drk to Kurma in a blm-burn. I was in a party with 2 sams, 2 bards, and a whm. I got double march and idr what else and I just stun/flash'd the whole fight. Even though Kurma resisted most of them, I was still generating the hate from it. Even still, the BLMs would pull Kurma out of the melee at least once per fight, because of hate cap.

There really isn't anything about paladin, enmity, or tanking that you can tell me Daemon that I don't already know.

Enmity is broken.

[Daemon]

The problems with enmity right now.

- Hate cap is way too low.
- Hate cap exists. Really, it shouldn't.
- Tanks can't hit fast enough at hate cap. One reason monks tanked in abyssea was that they hit so fast and hard that when people were hate-capping, the fastest hard hitter kept pinging against hate cap and so took the most hits. Monks also happened to have the most hp, so it worked. Ninjas hit fast, not nearly as hard as monk though.
- Every DD accelerates hate far faster than a tank. They hit harder, and faster, especially compared to paladin.

It really, really, is not worth the trouble to try to pretend the job is useful.

Last time I had to tank on PLD, I went pld/drk to Kurma in a blm-burn. I was in a party with 2 sams, 2 bards, and a whm. I got double march and idr what else and I just stun/flash'd the whole fight. Even though Kurma resisted most of them, I was still generating the hate from it. Even still, the BLMs would pull Kurma out of the melee at least once per fight, because of hate cap.

There really isn't anything about paladin, enmity, or tanking that you can tell me Daemon that I don't already know.

Enmity is broken.

To me it sounds like people want to play too fast than take time to do strategy properly.

This is why I've spent so much time spamming the same bosses over and over and learn about pacing my recast timers to knowing the pace of when boss cast spells and conditions like reset hate.

Team work requires homework.

Hate cap is way too low. For tanker? Then it means DD is dealing too much damage too fast.

If that's the case, DD should be purposely gimping their damage by equipping lower level damage gear and weapons or give tanker time to raise enmity.

Otherwise hire 1-2 thief that can rotate stealing enmity off other DD and then SATA off Tanker.

Meaning you are purposely lowering enmity of others and redirecting it onto tanker.

This solves tankers from losing enmity.

Also DD attacking normal mobs for TP provides better control over tanker from losing hate. And gives tanker time to raise enmity at the same time.

Why do this if we can kill faster with DPS?

That can be a hit or miss situation that's why.

In the long run strategy is suppose to be consistent flow of damage with control than attack and pause due to people dying.

Most JPs I know have been doing this for years with the same group of friends and that's why you see some as pro when in reality this is suppose to be basics that everyone learn at low levels, throughout the entire exp phase.

People don't learn this because instant gratification, taking short cuts and being lazy just to get past it as if its a burden.

Purposely Leaving out jobs that provide these strategies all because they rather do things fast and get it over with.

Pacing the fight with strategy requires several things. Not just Zerg and kill with highest DPS and win. That's why I find it boring playing with NA groups.

All DD are power hungry and only care about who can deal the most DMG. That's not thinking as a team, that's thinking as an individual in a group of people who are suppose to be thinking as a team.

The more people you add to the equation, the less control you have or the harder it becomes to control the situation is also why groups fail. Especially when people do not listen.

Most JPs think why you need to have more people when it can be done with less and more efficient and more effective if done right. And this is why a lot of JPs don't want to party with NA.

[FrankReynolds]

Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3572Ulgcb7c/UdxUU1dqHhI/AAAAAAAAqkM/CEmZ5b6X0Xg/w500-h281-no/tumblr_inline_moikjsCQWB1qz4rgp.gif

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nV2QC8CZhx8/UhitOp4PnDI/AAAAAAAB0rQ/_MqC5LpMb50/w400-h228-no/iptF54skk6sg0.gif


But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming certain jobs are meant to be something their not.

If recast time is an issue then wouldn't it make sense to hire more of the same job and rotate?

People don't truly study jobs and bosses to figure out different strategies with the mindset of "this job is worthless because DPS is the only way to go, its not worth the time and effort"

Which to me is just a lazy excuse to get the fight over with as quick as possible. This is why I find partying with NA is boring.

JP parties use different techniques and study up on thinks like

Stand near the wall because ADL can push back players.
Zerg off regular mob to reduce enmity and make the fight messy.
Mass buff using SCH, SMN, COR, BRD to have invincibility in the beginning of the fight that could provide an advantage of getting a good head start.
Use certain jobs to rotate to accomplish Skillchains, enmity control, etc.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jkrBUBGAq4Y/Ue7dVa8exPI/AAAAAAAAry0/uebJ6jyC1lI/w426-h237/jHwshVC.gif

All of that has been done before.

[OmnysValefor]

Go beat 5/5 Delve, and then beat Tojil, and then come talk to us about where the game stands.

Seriously man.

You only have so many party spots. 18 spreads awfully thin.

Let alone Daquwaqa or bee.

[Daemon]

Go beat 5/5 Delve, and then beat Tojil, and then come talk to us about where the game stands.

Seriously man.

You only have so many party spots. 18 spreads awfully thin.

So you are saying its impossible to low man Delve and kill all bosses within the time limit.

You are under a false illusion like most players today. Party with JPs for long time and you will see the difference.

At the current state everyone thinks boss is too hard and think having more people with highest DPS will win. Of course you can win. Anyone can gang bang a fight and end up winning.

Focusing only on DPS jobs mainly without strategy is like hire 1 tank and 17 BLM casting Meteor. Yeah you will win, and win fast. But the risks add up to hit and miss.

The real challenge is doing it with less people fastest possible on a flow.

You may think because it might take longer to do strategy is not worth it but if the flow is steady, gimping damage for the sake of flow well makes up for it in the long run compare to hit and miss, fall down and die, mages flailing arms in the air running in circles, DD attacking gimp under weaken or double weakness status and so on.

[Demon6324236]

So you are saying its impossible to low man Delve and kill all bosses within the time limit.

You are under a false illusion like most players today. Party with JPs for long time and you will see the difference.

At the current state everyone thinks boss is too hard and think having more people with highest DPS will win. Of course you can win. Anyone can gang bang a fight and end up winning.

Focusing only on DPS jobs mainly without strategy is like hire 1 tank and 17 BLM casting Meteor. Yeah you will win, and win fast.

But the real challenge is doing it with less people fastest possible on a flow.

You may think because it might take longer to do strategy is not worth it but if the flow is steady, gimping damage for the sake of flow well makes up for it in the long run compare to hit and miss, fall down and die, mages flailing arms in the air running in circles, DD attacking gimp under unweaken and so on.Without deflecting or avoiding, answer this question.

Have you, or have you not, participated in a successful Tojil run?

[Demon6324236]

Hate cap is way too low. For tanker? Then it means DD is dealing too much damage too fast.

If that's the case, DD should be purposely gimping their damage by equipping lower level damage gear and weapons or give tanker time to raise enmity.Now we have reached this point. Where our DDs must hold our PLDs hand because he cant do his job properly due to broken mechanics, and ends up being nothing more than a hindrance to the team. This is the exact reason no one brings a PLD, because doing this would cause failure in most events, and is generally a stupid thing to need to do for a job to be of use in the first place.

[OmnysValefor]

So you are saying its impossible to low man Delve and kill all bosses within the time limit.

Nope, lowman delves have happen. Comeatmebro octoboxes 5/5+Tojil. I'm not sure about Daku or bee.

The thing is, in no scenario does a tank keep up with the enmity the DDs need to generate in order to kill the bosses A) within the time limit B) before Tojil is chewing on a few Orison Bliauds.


You are under a false illusion like most players today. Party with JPs for long time and you will see the difference.

You're talking about how JP are superior, and yet you haven't ever cleared Delve, Tojil. It's like saying "You're not good at basketball because my friends are tall and lots of good basketball players are tall.". Doesn't make a lick of sense, does it?


At the current state everyone thinks boss is too hard and think having more people with highest DPS will win. Of course you can win. Anyone can gang bang a fight and end up winning.

No, see, there was a time when you couldn't just send your dd in and laugh. SE used to design encounters, and now they just give things a lot of hp and moves that you need to stun.

Damage dealers are entirely too tankable now,


Focusing only on DPS jobs mainly without strategy is like hire 1 tank and 17 BLM casting Meteor. Yeah you will win, and win fast. But the risks add up to hit and miss.

Why do you continue to assume that because we don't want special snowflakes, we have no strategy?


You may think because it might take longer to do strategy is not worth it but if the flow is steady, gimping damage for the sake of flow well makes up for it in the long run compare to hit and miss, fall down and die, mages flailing arms in the air running in circles, DD attacking gimp under unweaken and so on.

Okay, here's the thing about most serious NMs. They're either immune to stun, resistant to it, or they build a resistance too it. Tojil does this. As the fight goes on, the more moves that you stun, the more resistant he gets to it. Before the m.acc update, this was why a lot of ls's couldn't beat Tojil. The fight would go on a little too long and a key stun would get resisted and people would wipe.

Barring the building immunity to stun, the fact that you need to stun, and that scholars can only stun so often, you might be able to take tojil down by just using ws+sc damage. You'd probably have to bead a few things, but it might happen.

There is no way, absolutely, that you could do all 4 of the other bosses that way (matamata doesn't count).

And Morimar is the easiest zone.

[OmnysValefor]

You keep talking about we neanderthals and our lack of strategy and how I simply need to just come play with a group like yours to see the light except that I know the fight mechanics, I've been there. You don't, and you haven't.

[Daemon]

Without deflecting or avoiding, answer this question.

Have you, or have you not, participated in a successful Tojil run?

Here we go again. Have you tried every strategy, party setup, all jobs to come to the conclusion that there is only one way to win? Stop avoiding that question then ill answer yours.

[OmnysValefor]

Without deflecting or avoiding, answer this question.

Have you, or have you not, participated in a successful Tojil run?

Here we go again.

I choked, laughing, on my soda when I read that.

[Daemon]

Because at this point you are trying to put me in the spotlight with the intention of replying "Then you don't know jack about what you are talking about." Just to prove that in order to know how every boss you have to win first before you talk.

If you were paying attention we are not talking about Tojil right now. We were talking about Enmity, different jobs, strategy vs DPS only.

[OmnysValefor]

We are talking about enmity in content that matters. Delve is the only content that matters where things live long enough to build any enmity on.

[Daemon]

We are talking about enmity in content that matters. Delve is the only content that matters where things live long enough to build any enmity on.

I assumed we were talking about Wildskeeper Rieves. I mean that's why we went over 58 pages worth of comments.

And why people are complaining it takes over 5-10 hours to kill Yumcax and Hurkaan. And by following the original topic.

Or am I misunderstanding?

[OmnysValefor]

Now you're just trying to avoid the question. This thread derailed from WK a long time ago and you know that. I'm not sure how it did, but the last several pages have been about enmity because apparently, only your ls knows how this game is meant to work.

[Demon6324236]

Here we go again.Quite so, once again, a deflection of the question...


Have you tried every strategy, party setup, all jobs to come to the conclusion that there is only one way to win?Have I? No, I have not, however, I have zerged the boss in the quickest way possible, and won with very little time remaining many times. To cut my kill speed in a run to half would be the same as doubling the time it took to finish the run. My best run I have ever had left us with 20 minutes remaining, which meant we took 25 minutes. 25 doubled is 50, the maximum time in zone is 45 minutes, as such, I would have failed on my best run I have ever been in for Tojil if my kill speed was halved, not to mention every person in the run was using a Delve weapon obtained from a Boss, Upu DRGs, Oat MNKs, and Senbaak DRKs. At the same time, to allow a PLD to tank, that is what would be needed. If you want to put in THFs you have to either get rid of buffers, one of your BRDs or CORs, or a DD out of the 3 you put in a party, which cuts your DD power down, especially when you expect them to focus on hate management. Since you want 2 THFs and a PLD, that cuts out a total of 3 of your primary DDs. Now since you are going to want Angon, at least 1 DD should be a DRG. So it looks to me like your expected party setup would be...

PLD+DRG+THF+BRD+COR+WHM
MNK+MNK+THF+BRD+COR+WHM
RDM+BRD+SCH+SCH+GEO+GEO

Now on top of all of these sacrifices you are saying I should then tell my DDs that they need to TP on normal mobs rather than the NM because we want the PLD to tank? I have not tried it, but I doubt I need to. I understand the game, the damage output, and my restrictions given via time and party limits.

To answer simply, no, I haven't tried every strategy.

Now, answer my question and stop dodging and deflecting every time its asked.

[FrankReynolds]

I assumed we were talking about Wildskeeper Rieves. I mean that's why we went over 58 pages worth of comments.

And why people are complaining it takes over 5-10 hours to kill Yumcax and Hurkaan. And by following the original topic.

Or am I misunderstanding?

Your debates about enmity and wildskeeper rieves are two separate topics.

[Demon6324236]

Because at this point you are trying to put me in the spotlight with the intention of replying "Then you don't know jack about what you are talking about." Just to prove that in order to know how every boss you have to win first before you talk.No, I am trying to get you to say you have not fought the NM, or won against the NM, and for that reason you can not talk as though your way would be anywhere near successful against it, or any content like it. If you want to argue with me that it works on level 75 content and easy stuff like WoE or Abyssea, then sure, I agree, its possible. If you want to tell me it works on SoA content which blows everything else away by far and is far harder to complete than those ever will be, is possible to beat with the strategies you speak of, no, you have no idea because you haven't done them, you speak from inexperience as though you know what you are talking about.


If you were paying attention we are not talking about Tojil right now. We were talking about Enmity, different jobs, strategy vs DPS only.Yes, we were, and you see, in the majority of hard and difficult content, where you would assumingly need those first things more, is the exact place you are saying we use none. We use no strategy, we don't want different jobs, and we ignore enmity, and for the most part, ya know what, your right about the first two, why? Because simply put, as we have been trying to explain to you while you ignore us, you cant do it. It does not have to be about Tojil for Tojil and others at his level to be of relevance, simply put, they are the hardest, if your strategies do not work against him because of game design flaws, perhaps it means something.

[Demon6324236]

I assumed we were talking about Wildskeeper Rieves. I mean that's why we went over 58 pages worth of comments.No, we were talking about WK Reives 30 pages ago, since then the talk has been spread to talking about your ignorance on other subjects like enmity, job selection, content design, and so on.


Or am I misunderstanding?You are misunderstanding much more than this.

[OmnysValefor]

Jesus man, I have a sick devotion to Paladin.

Don't you think I'd be playing it ("playing", not supertanking) if I believed it were feasible?

I'm not the only one. Guess what, there's Burtgang 99's that stil lknow the job has two purposes right now.. Supertanking, and WKR.

[Daemon]

UHG, I assumed we were talking about Wikdskeeper Rieves. Tojil was just a thrown in example of how the condition is different than WR. My point was most players continue to follow the kill fast with highest DPS jobs while discriminating other jobs that make strategies work.

Because you guys talk about Yumcax and Hurkaan taking 5-10 hours is why I went on about having the right gear, strategy, jobs make boss fights like in WR differ in setup.

That's why I mentioned several replies ago how Scholar with High INT using Ebullence and Kaustra was an example of using skills that could make a difference yet I continue to see people gimp jobs or discriminate based on DPS and robotic setups such as 3 bards rotating for 6 songs.

And why I continued to share my view on Enmity, control, and how DDs should be raising TP off Normal monsters than mash WS engage 100% on boss til the end.

I assumed Tojil was an example thrown in to prove me wrong in my explaination of why you think I'm wrong and how you think all bosses today have the same condition when evidently I'm telling you all bosses have different conditions.

Delve is limited on time. I've yet to see anyone even try to do it low man. This is why there are not any discussions on how anyone can do it without 18 people.

That's why I took it with a grain of salt and continued on about my view on WR.

If you want to talk about Tojil and delve then conditions differ since time limit is the obstacle
But then everything I just spend pages explaining would become absolutely irrelevant and we would be further confuse our points and take us way off topic.

[Demon6324236]

If you want to say that's what people can do in WKs then sure, to an extent that's what people already do in WKs, doesn't make it go any faster because without a few PLDs around to take the NM, you can get wiped by a single high power TP move which goes without being blocked by the PLD.

I have seen Yumcax hit Burtgang Ochain PLDs for more than 3k DMG which 1 shots them, and unless you have multiple PLDs on the NM, a new PLD will be starting with next to no enmity, making it hard to get it from the DDs who have been WSing. Now if you have multiple PLDs on them at a time then one of three things happen which make it go very badly still.

A. Multiple PLDs feed TP to fast, cause a wipe.

B. Multiple PLDs stand on top of one another and all get wiped by the same move, which made putting more PLDs on it pointless anyways.

C. Multiple PLDs spread out around the NM and cause it to spin, which kills all surrounding DDs, or worse, the mages, SMNs, and CORs, by making the NM use conal attacks in their direction, while also leaving no chance for having DDs come in to WS either.

Which results in another issue, which is that if a DD runs in and WSs multiple times, they have a nice amount of hate, as soon as the PLD dies from a TP attack, the NM will come after the DD, at which point they will start taking a large amount of damage. At this point there is a high likelihood that the DD will be healed by the WHM, and possibly SMNs or other jobs in the party, if there is a party, which spreads the hate further. Eventually it will cause a lot of deaths, and potentially even a wipe.

Also Enmity sucks on these NMs from what I have seen because a single SMN leaving Garuda out and auto-attacking on Yumcax has caused a number of wipes in fights I have been in because the SMN takes hate somehow which causes Yumcax to come visit the SMNs, and subsequently slaughter them all. After that point our DD falls to near nothing, many of the mages are out of the fight, and more people die, resulting in a wipe.

All of this leads to the same thing we all said earlier too, you can not coordinate a hoard of people, which is one of the leading issues with WKs, as a single idiot, literally, a single idiot, can cause the entire group at a WK to fail instantly if they choose to. Because of how WKs work, there is no way to remove or kick these people, or stop the idiot who uses Twilight to get up 300 times for the next hour because he feels like it while causing the NM to camp on top of all of the dead bodies.

[Okipuit]

I am getting really sick of the WK rewards for your efforts. I only have 2 items from Hurkan and I keep getting the same ones over and over with a crap synth item as a chaser. It's not worth the exp loss or bayld to even try to get a decent drop at all.

Just to catch everyone up on the current situation, we have received a lot of feedback on this and we do have plans to address this as Producer Akihiko Matsui mentioned here:



Treasures
Currently, in addition to obtaining rewards directly from defeating a Naakual, it's possible to obtain an item of your choice after fulfilling certain requirements for the Celennia Memorial Library. However, we'll be adding yet another way to obtain Naakual items by fulfilling requirements in content that is to be added in the future.

We'll also be adding geomancy and other magic scrolls, coupons you can use to exchange for Bayld, and other items that have a bit more value to the current material slot.



Also, we do plan on adding a system to encourage users who have completed Wildskeeper content to challenge Naakuals again.




Plans to maintain participation
Once you've managed to procure all of the rewards from Naakuals, there will no longer be a reason to fight Naakuals, and as such the battles for others who have yet to fight them will become difficult. With that said, we will be creating goals to accomplish for people who have already collected Naakual items, so they continue to challenge these foes.

To do this, we'll be adding new equipment and making it possible to revamp your Naakual equipment. We'll also be revamping the level design when a new Naakual comes out.



We understand that this is a hot topic right now and we're eager to get you more details so rest assured we'll deliver you the latest as soon as we can.

[Demon6324236]

That is somewhat better, but still...


Currently, in addition to obtaining rewards directly from defeating a Naakual, it's possible to obtain an item of your choice after fulfilling certain requirements for the Celennia Memorial Library. However, we'll be adding yet another way to obtain Naakual items by fulfilling requirements in content that is to be added in the future.

Unless it makes it so that I do not have to fight Yumcax another 5+ times for my Hat... which I have already fought him more than 10 times for... I will be happy, same with my Boots from Hurkan... but this is still not the preferred adjustment we have all been asking for...

Also, thank you for replying after 60 pages.

[OmnysValefor]

Oh sweet, thank you for the translated reply that the japanese got nearly two weeks ago :)

[Demon6324236]

Good point... -_-;

[Mnejing]

Oh sweet, thank you for the translated reply that the japanese got nearly two weeks ago :)

Hmm whats this (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/35776-Wildskeeper-Reive-Feedback?p=466876#post466876)? Just a re-iteration anyway.

[Daemon]

Sigh its better than nothing.... You guys got your reply. I knew it would come anyways. And was nice debating with you. If it took 60 pages to get a reply, minus all the responses I made to contribute reaching those 60 pages.

Atleast our debates lets them see our different points of view of the matter in detail.

[Demon6324236]

Sad thing is, it still does nothing to prevent the 5~10 hour wait times some people experience with this event unless the rewards they add are truly amazing, and given often. What I mean is, they can give out Meteor & Arise, rarest spells in the game, and it wont matter in a week because the supply will be so high they crash, same with anything else. However if its to hopeless and no one can get it, like items are now, or they are to frequent, no one will do it anyways. So really this doesn't seem like it will do much of anything for the fight itself, only possibly making the rewards less hell to obtain hopefully.

[Daemon]

Sad thing is, it still does nothing to prevent the 5~10 hour wait times some people experience with this event unless the rewards they add are truly amazing, and given often. What I mean is, they can give out Meteor & Arise, rarest spells in the game, and it wont matter in a week because the supply will be so high they crash, same with anything else. However if its to hopeless and no one can get it, like items are now, or they are to frequent, no one will do it anyways. So really this doesn't seem like it will do much of anything for the fight itself, only possibly making the rewards less hell to obtain hopefully.

No but the point I was making. Community reps do read and respond. I'd imagine if people don't trash the Dev team and staff they might respond sooner.

Or wait to get enough comments in the discussion from several people and not just 3-5 people only.

Also my point I stated long in the beginning is that content can be adjusted anytime. Just can't expect it to happen without analyzing how the event works out.

Especially can't expect them to adjust it again straight away after already making adjustments.

Feedback also takes time to analyze. That's why I kept saying he patient.

Honestly I wasn't cheer leading though.

[FrankReynolds]

Sad thing is, it still does nothing to prevent the 5~10 hour wait times some people experience with this event unless the rewards they add are truly amazing, and given often. What I mean is, they can give out Meteor & Arise, rarest spells in the game, and it wont matter in a week because the supply will be so high they crash, same with anything else. However if its to hopeless and no one can get it, like items are now, or they are to frequent, no one will do it anyways. So really this doesn't seem like it will do much of anything for the fight itself, only possibly making the rewards less hell to obtain hopefully.

Well, it sounds like there will be trials of some sort for gear or items. So it may be something like another form of KI currency like plasm, bayld, ISP, AN etc.

That would be good, because then everyone walks away with something. I just hope they don't botch it like colonization reives where one group can rape everything before anyone else has a chance to get evaluations / points.

[Daemon]

Well, it sounds like there will be trials of some sort for gear or items. So it may be something like another form of KI currency like plasm, bayld, ISP, AN etc.

That would be good, because then everyone walks away with something. I just hope they don't botch it like colonization reives where one group can rape everything before anyone else has a chance to get evaluations / points.

I wish they'd implement the point system I suggested...


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-System

Maybe we can move over to that thread now and debate until we get a response lol.

Since the goal of this topic got accomplished.

[Daemon]

You keep talking about we neanderthals and our lack of strategy and how I simply need to just come play with a group like yours to see the light except that I know the fight mechanics, I've been there. You don't, and you haven't.

I'm sure you guys are bored now that the concern about WR has been answered. However since you question my experience. I've fought Tojil and yes I've yet to succeed in winning the fight. Although my LS is an NA Delve Linkshells. Many have succeeded however I have not been in game logging in playing as much as I've been too busy working over 80 hours a week doing technician work on computers during the day and DJing at night however.

That doesn't mean by now after playing 11 years and like most people I use to login and at some points throughout the years I did play more than 16 hours a day that should qualify enough knowledge, experience to know how the mechanics of a fight works.

Its not my fault that I joined a team that failed. Not because I didn't do my part but because when playing with half an LS with the other half of the members unknown, team work is not based on practice or knowledge. We spent most of the time having some members try to figure out how they should contribute to the fight.

We did almost beat Tojil, but we screwed up with mata in the start that lead to failure.

On top of that our RDM did not keep blind up on pieste which made the party messy and lack of proper team work and lack of proper communication and leadership.

It does not take higher education to know how to fight any boss regardless of the level in question. However what I argue is that why people assume complaining about failure is reasonable when the result of that failure could be due to improper skill, equipment, teamwork, leadership, strategy?

Further more when I see DEV Team implement a boss or event and give you gear and weapons as a reward, I see that its meant to be easy after all player obtain such gear from these bosses. Obviously the challenge is before obtaining such drops. This happens with all content and is the reason why people stop playing the event after all items are achieved. Your power will surpass the boss in question after getting all rewards.

Meaning try to fight the bosses when everyone is well geared and ready than base automatic judgement that the event sucks before making the full effort. If others are doing it, and people are killing these bosses then the task is not impossible. The task is time consuming because its not meant to be easy until everyone on the server get the rewards and go back and help others win.

Had my team practiced and knew how to work team work first we would have beaten Tojil.

Then again has I not been working over 80 hours a week and logged in and played as much as you guys I would probably be further advanced than you. Why? Because I am one of the most stubborn hardcore player you will ever meet. Even if I have to stay up 3 days in a row to advance. I've done it many times. And I know how to accomplish goals without wasting time.

Coruscanti? It was an impossible system that would take me pages upon pages as to why it was impossible. Although if I was extremely serious about than join 6-10 groups a day, I could have spent that time farming and bought cells long time before the event was killed.

I just know I'm a good enough player to be patient, have the drive and dedication beyond any player and know how to manage my time in getting things done not to complain about anything.

And just because I did not join a party and win Tojil yet doesn't mean you are more superior and know more than me. 11 years of experience should be enough to know what to look for in every fight. And I do have knowledge to study the fights, communicate with others, read and research strategies, practice and lead a succesful event.

But when doing an event with various people and often times random members. Not everyone had the proper skill, equipment, knowledge and listen well to instruction. And sometimes leadership is lacking.

This is why failure happens in many parties. Not because you should single me out as if I'm not skilled enough to win.

All bosses in game were meant to be beaten. My take though is that I try to figure out how it can be done with minimal people possible using any job and any skill.

You may think Stun is the only way. My thinking is what if we did not have stun. What if we tried a different odd setup. How can it be done with all jobs.

I don't stick to what works. I try to find different ways to accomplish something opposed to how others do it.

You never know unless you try other ways. Thinking only a certain way is the only way only keeps you limited in everything you do.

If you feel like bashing me for my way of thinking or grouping up to criticize and hate on me go ahead but I refuse to believe it is impossible to have different setups, different strategies using different jobs.

The way us Asians think especially in Korea. We try to figure out the impossible and make it possible. Even if we have to be determined and dedicated until the goal is accomplished.

This is how we enjoy every single game. The challenge doesn't end with only beating a boss. The challenge for us is how do we beat the boss with every job. And we try to do it with least amount of members in the group.

My JP LS leader even question why NA players thinks Quantity over Quality? Obviously more players mean less control, less organization.

If we can accomplish the impossible then the reward is the reaction from others.

My country beat diablo in 7 hours upon release.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Diablo-Blizzard-PC-Gaming-7-hours-Korea,15649.html
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4210101118
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5149005645

Don't underestimate us Koreans.

If I had the right team skilled and knows how to work as a team. I would have figured out the ins and outs of every detail on how to accomplish all boss fights. Our determination is beyond belief.

Even Korean motto is that while our time zone is 1 day ahead of NA, we also work 1 day harder from Mon-Sat every week.

Compare to 9-5 Mon-Fri.

Although law changed in 2004, adjustment integrated in our culture does not change with everyone. I grew up in Korea working 7 days a week for no salary 5 years. No vacations, and no fixed schedule, with no Holidays, working overtime many times per day. My reward was to be a successful DJ/Remixer in charge of a DJ Promo company that only 1 person out of 2 companies in all over Korea had that position. Sacrificing money for one of the most important jobs not everyone have an opportunity to do.

Point is, I set a goal and accomplished to most the impossible. Regardless of what sacrifice had to be made.

Every job I work 3 times harder than any employee. Regardless if I am not required to do more than the requirement of that job.

Determination, sacrifice, patience, knowledge, networking, leadership, all important skills that even in any game can help a person succeed.

Management taught me organization skills.

Time management course in college taught me how to get things done most effeciently and effectively.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries.html

Know our culture then maybe you will understand me better.

[FrankReynolds]

Stuff.

Your country didn't beat diablo III. A few people did. Your country went to work, school, etc. just like everyone else in the world. Stop trying to take credit for other peoples achievements. Nationalism is another form of prejudice just like racism. Knock it off.

As for your other analogies and stories...

How would you like it if some kid who remixed a puff daddy song on his macbook in his moms basement once started telling you that getting rich off DJing is super easy and that you just need to suck less? Because that's how you sound. Telling people that they are the problem when you don't actually know.

[Daemon]

Your country didn't beat diablo III. A few people did. Your country went to work, school, etc. just like everyone else in the world. Stop trying to take credit for other peoples achievements. Nationalism is another form of prejudice just like racism. Knock it off.

As for your other analogies and stories...

How would you like it if some kid who remixed a puff daddy song on his macbook in his moms basement once started telling you that getting rich off DJing is super easy and that you just need to suck less? Because that's how you sound. Telling people that they are the problem when you don't actually know.

I wouldn't know. I don't listen to puff daddy music. I don't live in my moms basement. And I don't skim through people's comments and judge them for something they are not.

Before you make such a subtle judgement conclusion of what you think of a person you should make sure you know the facts. I never knew my father because he died before I was born. I haven't seen my mother in over 13 years and most of my childhood I've been through foster homes because my mother could not work and raise me on her own. So all my life I have working hard and raising myself to be independent putting myself through school and college.

So if you want to continue assuming you know about me. Enlighten me and continue to repeat these judgements that others have used over and over on others like a poor excuse played as broken records.

I said know our culture then maybe you would understand me better.

Obviously you rather judge people than get to know different cultures. And this is why many people don't want to stay and be around negative people like you.

I never took credit for anyone's achievements. The example of Diablo III was an example of how us Koreans are hardcore gamers.

People who knows me on Phoenix knows I'm a hardcore gamer.

DJing maybe super easy to those who only buy an iPod and press play. But I assure you its not easy being that real DJs take over $30,000 investing in personal gear and music. And 20 years of experience mixing shows a significant difference in performance compared to your "It's easy to DJ and you can get rich quick" assumption.

DJ life is one of the most poor lives to live. We invest most of our salary buying music. But you wouldn't know that because you automatically judge that every DJ has it easy like Afrojack and SMH.

You have no idea what you are talking about and its insulting. Go watch Danny Tenaglia and compare him with Afrojack and come back and make your assumption again.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p09T0WRklHY

Til this day Mainstream instant fame DJs have ruined a beautiful art basing music on instant gratification and convenience than knowing what house music really is about.

Taking over house music and incorporating it into pop and then calling it house music.

Unless you've DJd long enough to know how the business really works then I could be open minded on your opinion.

At first I enjoyed our debates. But after reading that comment. I lost respect for you.

Then again I've already seen you make wrong assumptions of others in previous comments on this thread before.

[detlef]

Ha, you're such a hypocrite. You judge us as much as you say we judge you. The only reason you feel like you're the one being persecuted is because you've gone out of your way to put yourself out there. Nobody would make fun of your gaming class if you hadn't mentioned it. Nobody would make fun of your DJing if you hadn't brought it up. Nobody would question your skills or the skills of your linkshell if you hadn't shown so little experience with current content. If you are going to brag about how great your skills are, wiping to Tojil makes it hard to take you seriously.

Basically, the more you put yourself out there, the more you leave yourself to be judged. If you talk about how great you and your linkshell are, people will question it.

Anyway, I snuck into a 35% Yumcax (even though I said I would never go back) and got Buremte Gloves so I guess you were right the whole time. It was a 10 hour fight.

[Daemon]

Ha, you're such a hypocrite. You judge us as much as you say we judge you. The only reason you feel like you're the one being persecuted is because you've gone out of your way to put yourself out there. Nobody would make fun of your gaming class if you hadn't mentioned it. Nobody would make fun of your DJing if you hadn't brought it up. Nobody would question your skills or the skills of your linkshell if you hadn't shown so little experience with current content. If you are going to brag about how great your skills are, wiping to Tojil makes it hard to take you seriously.

Basically, the more you put yourself out there, the more you leave yourself to be judged. If you talk about how great you and your linkshell are, people will question it.

Anyway, I snuck into a 35% Yumcax (even though I said I would never go back) and got Buremte Gloves so I guess you were right the whole time. It was a 10 hour fight.

I guess its not meant to make friends on the forums. Since people don't interact with each other and do stuff together hiding behind a sprite, its easier to treat people like they don't matter and put someone down for more "likes"

There is a difference between bragging and defending myself. Obviously I was defending myself due to encountering attitudes like

"You don't know jack because you couldn't join a decent party to beat Tojil so I know more than you and refuse to think you are up to my level until you do."

"And just because you've played 11 years doesn't mean anything, your a noob and we are better than you. Until you beat Tojil, we are more superior than you."


Grats on your gloves by the way.

Maybe 10 hour fight, but in reality you are holding the boss that long so others can join in and play too.


I guess you were right the whole time.

I get that a lot. But It never has to be this way if people were a little more patient than jump to conclusions and pay attention to detail.

I've only played WR once and saw how the event was drawn out. Reading several comments also told me the story.

[Demon6324236]

I guess its not meant to make friends on the forums. Since people don't interact with each other and do stuff together hiding behind a sprite, its easier to treat people like they don't matter and put someone down for more "likes"This has nothing to do with likes, it has to do with attempting to voice an opinion, and in this case most peoples opinion is that your looking like a fool due to what you say.

There is a difference between bragging and defending myself.


"You don't know jack because you couldn't join a decent party to beat Tojil so I know more than you and refuse to think you are up to my level until you do."

"And just because you've played 11 years doesn't mean anything, your a noob and we are better than you. Until you beat Tojil, we are more superior than you."No one said this, everyone asked if you had beaten Tojil because you were claiming that it could be done in a party setup which would not make it to Tojil, let alone kill it. To make such claims always brings up the question of if you have ever even fought it because the claim is that far out of what people deem to be realistic. You made an outrageous claim, which in this case made you sound like you flat out haven't done it, and have no idea what your talking about. It would be like if with WKs someone said that the fight was easy and fast and always rewarding. Its not people saying 'Get on my level noob!' its people saying 'What? Have you even done that content? That's not even close to realistic!'


Maybe 10 hour fight, but in reality you are holding the boss that long so others can join in and play too.There is no justifiable reason a small group of players should need to stand in a small area with a highly dangerous NM & its minions until an army arrives to help because they are 'holding the boss that long so others can join in'. If I get on FFXI, I should be playing FFXI, not joining a WK so I can afk inside the WK for 7 hours until the right amount of people are there for us to actually put up some kind of fight, then play a single repetitive fight for the nest 2~3 hours just so I can get a log or pebble.

[Demon6324236]

I get that a lot.You get that a lot, but you didn't get the sarcasm in it.

[Daemon]

You get that a lot, but you didn't get the sarcasm in it.

He got his gloves no? You guys got your response from the DEV Team no? I guess complaining miserabley and being negative is healthy and feeling depressed all the time rubbing it off on others is good for the community and the people around you. Even if it means destroying your friends in the process?

[Daemon]

This has nothing to do with likes, it has to do with attempting to voice an opinion, and in this case most peoples opinion is that your looking like a fool due to what you say.

There is a difference between bragging and defending myself.

No one said this, everyone asked if you had beaten Tojil because you were claiming that it could be done in a party setup which would not make it to Tojil, let alone kill it. To make such claims always brings up the question of if you have ever even fought it because the claim is that far out of what people deem to be realistic. You made an outrageous claim, which in this case made you sound like you flat out haven't done it, and have no idea what your talking about. It would be like if with WKs someone said that the fight was easy and fast and always rewarding. Its not people saying 'Get on my level noob!' its people saying 'What? Have you even done that content? That's not even close to realistic!'

There is no justifiable reason a small group of players should need to stand in a small area with a highly dangerous NM & its minions until an army arrives to help because they are 'holding the boss that long so others can join in'. If I get on FFXI, I should be playing FFXI, not joining a WK so I can afk inside the WK for 7 hours until the right amount of people are there for us to actually put up some kind of fight, then play a single repetitive fight for the nest 2~3 hours just so I can get a log or pebble.

Ugh get your facts straight. I already said I assumed we were talking about WR the whole time.

I mean that's the topic discussion of this thread no???

NOT TOJIL.

I even said if you want to talk about Tojil then everything I said would become irrelevant. Tojil is a time limit event.

Unlike WR where using various jobs and strategy can work.

Instead of listening to me, you guys are too busy trying to dawg me. Insult me and make me look a fool. Ignoring what I said and making wrong assumptions only to feed each other the fire to go against me.

And I'm assuming the hate meter is enough for me to not even bother logging ingame anymore because how awkward the direction of our debate is turning.

[Demon6324236]

He got his gloves no?Yes.


You guys got your response from the DEV Team no?No actually we didn't, as it was pointed out we got a copy pasted response from a couple weeks ago reposted by a rep in here, nothing from the Dev team of which was new, and nothing addressing the key issues. You see, one of the funny things is that they are trying to get more people in the WKs, let me explain though, I have went as a DD, as a DD, the mobs die less than 10~15 seconds after popping, its hard to get to actually hit them much at all because of how fast they die. As a healer, its hard to find random people to heal, and the PLD is cure bombed to no tomorrow so that doesn't work always. Support jobs get nothing practically. So if your not SMN or COR you will just be taking away what others can do for Bayld, not enough Bayld, no items, and faster kill times within a real fight means less chance to get Bayld. So bringing more people is also an issue, we need to simply be able to do it with less.


I guess complaining miserabley and being negative is healthy and feeling depressed all the time rubbing it off on others is good for the community and the people around you. Even if it means destroying your friends in the process?No, asking for a bad event to be made good no matter if I get my things or not is good for the community. Simply saying I got what I wanted, event must be good, or that I did a few good ones, it must not be that bad, doing those things is bad because your just covering up an issue which needs resolved.

[Demon6324236]

Ugh get your facts straight. I already said I assumed we were talking about WR the whole time.

I mean that's the topic discussion of this thread no???

NOT TOJIL.You fail to understand that almost every post made during that argument was under the assumption that you were talking about Tojil and thus yes, everything I just said is valid, because what you were saying was taken in that way, and replied to as such.


Instead of listening to me, you guys are too busy trying to dawg me. Insult me and make me look a fool. Ignoring what I said and making wrong assumptions only to feed each other the fire to go against me.Yes that's exactly it...


And I'm assuming the hate meter is enough for me to not even bother logging ingame anymore because how awkward the direction of our debate is turning.Funny thing is you said you came back to FFXI to talk to me, yet not once since you started posting again have you sent me a single tell that I have received. So who knows, maybe if you got on to talk at some point or actually do something we could do so, but instead you spend all your time here arguing with people and never log in because you refuse to use Windowed mode so that you can do both at once so far as I last knew. Why not stop posting here if you think everyone hates you & ignores what you say and instead simply get on the game and actually play it instead of just talking about it.

[Daemon]

You fail to understand that almost every post made during that argument was under the assumption that you were talking about Tojil and thus yes, everything I just said is valid, because what you were saying was taken in that way, and replied to as such.

Yes that's exactly it...

Funny thing is you said you came back to FFXI to talk to me, yet not once since you started posting again have you sent me a single tell that I have received. So who knows, maybe if you got on to talk at some point or actually do something we could do so, but instead you spend all your time here arguing with people and never log in because you refuse to use Windowed mode so that you can do both at once so far as I last knew. Why not stop posting here if you think everyone hates you & ignores what you say and instead simply get on the game and actually play it instead of just talking about it.

Why would the assumption be based on Tojil if we were talking about Hurkan and Yumkax since the beginning and why would I go through all of that explaining how WR has longer fights allowing a better window for players to join in.

I'm sorry but the conditions of Delve and WR clearly are not the same. And the amount of time is not the same.

You guys complained about WR loot drops, I never disagreed but this entire time we were in fact talking about WR and regardless of becoming derailed off topic I still assumed we were discussing WR, NOT Tojil.

As for not logging in I have not been home this week since I payed sub fee. Working 80 hours this week. I barely had 2 hours sleep everyday. When I get home I did intend to login.

But if you want to hold that against me.

I've been posting off my smartphone the entire time. Not computer. That's why I have to go back and make edits.

[Demon6324236]

I'm not holding things against you, I was pointing out you said you got back on to talk, yet aren't ever on, and at the same time say something about wondering if its even worth getting back on. My point was, how would you know when you haven't been. You know as well as I that we separate forum talk & in game talk, I have little understanding as to why that would suddenly change, or where the magical hate meter came from.

[Daemon]

I'm not holding things against you, I was pointing out you said you got back on to talk, yet aren't ever on, and at the same time say something about wondering if its even worth getting back on. My point was, how would you know when you haven't been. You know as well as I that we separate forum talk & in game talk, I have little understanding as to why that would suddenly change, or where the magical hate meter came from.

It came from the last time I logged in assuming your anger carried over to in game. Now that our arguments are heating up again, I question if its going to have an effect.

[Demon6324236]

Probably just caught me on one of my shitty days, or one of the days my migraines got worse.

[Daemon]

Probably just caught me on one of my shitty days, or one of the days my migraines got worse.

Oh ok, I work a double starting from 6pm to 3am then 7:30 am to 7:30 pm tomorrow. So if I'm not whacked out over drinking 20 cups of coffee incoherent, then ill try to login and say hi.

[Fynlar]

rofl @ "I'm korean and we're so awesome but I still haven't beaten Tojil" tirade

[FrankReynolds]

I wouldn't know. I don't listen to puff daddy music. I don't live in my moms basement. And I don't skim through people's comments and judge them for something they are not.

I never said you did. Start over at the beginning and really read it before you respond.


Before you make such a subtle judgement conclusion of what you think of a person you should make sure you know the facts. I never knew my father because he died before I was born. I haven't seen my mother in over 13 years and most of my childhood I've been through foster homes because my mother could not work and raise me on her own. So all my life I have working hard and raising myself to be independent putting myself through school and college.

I don't care. See above.


So if you want to continue assuming you know about me. Enlighten me and continue to repeat these judgements that others have used over and over on others like a poor excuse played as broken records.

I "Judged you based on what you wrote on these forums. Unless you were lying about being a DJ and having done one Tojil, my analogy is spot on.


I said know our culture then maybe you would understand me better.

I don't care about learning your culture. I care about this game. I have no interest in learning foreign culture from a video game forum... or even discussing it really.



Obviously you rather judge people than get to know different cultures. And this is why many people don't want to stay and be around negative people like you.

Nope, you are the negative one. You keep trying to make this a racial issue when it is clearly about a video game. Please take your racial / cultural comparisons to the appropriate racist website of your choosing. It has no place here.


I never took credit for anyone's achievements. The example of Diablo III was an example of how us Koreans are hardcore gamers.

See how you said "us Koreans"? That wasn't you. It was some koreans. Probably koreans that you have never met, will never meet and know nothing about. So don't try and lump yourself in with them and stop trying to lump everyone who speaks English together in the same way, because newsflash... you speak English too.


People who knows me on Phoenix knows I'm a hardcore gamer.

...


DJing maybe super easy to those who only buy an iPod and press play. But I assure you its not easy being that real DJs take over $30,000 investing in personal gear and music. And 20 years of experience mixing shows a significant difference in performance compared to your "It's easy to DJ and you can get rich quick" assumption.

DJ life is one of the most poor lives to live. We invest most of our salary buying music. But you wouldn't know that because you automatically judge that every DJ has it easy like Afrojack and SMH.

You have no idea what you are talking about and its insulting. Go watch Danny Tenaglia and compare him with Afrojack and come back and make your assumption again.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p09T0WRklHY

Til this day Mainstream instant fame DJs have ruined a beautiful art basing music on instant gratification and convenience than knowing what house music really is about.

Taking over house music and incorporating it into pop and then calling it house music.

Unless you've DJd long enough to know how the business really works then I could be open minded on your opinion.

At first I enjoyed our debates. But after reading that comment. I lost respect for you.

Then again I've already seen you make wrong assumptions of others in previous comments on this thread before.

First of all, you obviously didn't understand my post. I never said DJing was easy. I said that you wouldn't like it if someone said it was. Clearly you don't. That's how people who have heavy experience with this stuff feel when you comment like you know about it. You don't. When it comes to Tojil, WKR etc, you are the kid with the iPod.

Second of all... HI I'm a DJ too. I literally have thousands of vinyl records. I have a garage and a storage unit offsite full to the brim with equipment. I don't do it professionally anymore because i have a girlfriend who doesn't like her man being out all night, but I could if I wanted to because I am that good and I have friends who are doing quite well in the business. I did opening sets for hundreds of hip hop acts from Wu-tang to tupac to KRS-one and Run DMC back in my younger (Single) days. I can still get backstage at just about any venue I want to because I still piss off my neighbors mixing every night and I still mess around and cut sh&^* up with my friends who are in the industry at their shows. As a matter of fact, I'll be back stage at Rock the Bells (http://www.rockthebells.net/line-up/san-francisco/) this weekend with my friends.

[Daemon]

I never said you did. Start over at the beginning and really read it before you respond.



I don't care. See above.



I "Judged you based on what you wrote on these forums. Unless you were lying about being a DJ and having done one Tojil, my analogy is spot on.



I don't care about learning your culture. I care about this game. I have no interest in learning foreign culture from a video game forum... or even discussing it really.




Nope, you are the negative one. You keep trying to make this a racial issue when it is clearly about a video game. Please take your racial / cultural comparisons to the appropriate racist website of your choosing. It has no place here.



See how you said "us Koreans"? That wasn't you. It was some koreans. Probably koreans that you have never met, will never meet and know nothing about. So don't try and lump yourself in with them and stop trying to lump everyone who speaks English together in the same way, because newsflash... you speak English too.



...



First of all, you obviously didn't understand my post. I never said DJing was easy. I said that you wouldn't like it if someone said it was. Clearly you don't. That's how people who have heavy experience with this stuff feel when you comment like you know about it. You don't. When it comes to Tojil, WKR etc, you are the kid with the iPod.

Second of all... HI I'm a DJ too. I literally have thousands of vinyl records. I have a garage and a storage unit offsite full to the brim with equipment. I don't do it professionally anymore because i have a girlfriend who doesn't like her man being out all night, but I could if I wanted to because I am that good and I have friends who are doing quite well in the business. I did opening sets for hundreds of hip hop acts from Wu-tang to tupac to KRS-one and Run DMC back in my younger (Single) days. I can still get backstage at just about any venue I want to because I still piss off my neighbors mixing every night and I still mess around and cut sh&^* up with my friends who are in the industry at their shows. As a matter of fact, I'll be back stage at Rock the Bells (http://www.rockthebells.net/line-up/san-francisco/) this weekend with my friends.

Your analogy is completely irrelevant. It's one thing if I never played FFXI and only played Tojil once. It's another if I've been playing 11 years, have knowledge of game programming, know how computers and software works and have experience enough to know that playing a boss fight comes to the same conclusion.

You don't have to be a wiz kid or a genius to know that a boss fight is a boss fight.

OMG does it really take higher education to know and understand that a boss uses skills, abilities, has time limits, Spawn conditions?

You act like having 11 years of experience doesn't give me the authority to know what I'm talking about.

I've played Tojil once. Big deal. Did you kill Tojil solo? Or did you depend on 17 other people to help you? Just because I did not join a freakin group that was capable doesnt mean i'm some noob that doesn't know jack.

That's like saying big deal you played 11 years, until you beat Kirin, Byakko, Qilin, Aello, you don't know jack.

And if I'm not working 80 hours a week you wouldn't even be trying to use Tojil against me as an excuse for "You don't know what your talking about, your opinion means nothing, so until you beat Tojil, then open your mouth and talk"

Which is BS. Only elitist think this way. Playing Delve more than 200 times is enough know how Delve works. Playing Tojil 1 time is enough to know how it works.

Reading Tojil strategies is common sense before you play the boss. Do I need a PHD to learn this? Then again having 17 other people skilled, listen well to instruction and knows how to work as a team with proper gear makes a difference.

Don't single me out and think I don't know anything.

You play hip hop. I play house music. Conditions are different. I mix, You cut. In the end we are both still playing music. The difference is how you play the music. 20 years of experience is enough to have an opinion.

[Demon6324236]

People aren't singling you out because you don't know anything, they are saying you have little experience with Tojil, as you have confirmed by saying you have fought him only a single time. No matter the skill of the group, number of people, or anything else on the subject, it matters not, you have very little experience with the NM compared to others with much greater experience, which was part of the point of the entire Tojil debate here.

Also, in the 11 years, the game has changed, never before now could we have 2 SCH/BLM keep a NM stunned at nearly all times of a battle, also, we could never stun every attack, and every attack was not certain death, admittedly we have gotten past the part where all attacks kill you, but some of them are still so deadly that its a stun or die kinda game we play. So even if you have experience for the last 11 years, it means jack when your fighting something that attacks with types of things you have never had to really deal with before, such as Lahar, which causes weakness without killing you, a type of attack VW temps let us avoid, and only those few people who did Legion really experienced issues with before Adoulin. While you have this experience, in this case, its different, the only content in a while people have had to fight like Delve Bosses, were Legion NMs, so unless you did Legion, you really don't have as much experience in the field as you believe you do in my opinion.

[Daemon]

People aren't singling you out because you don't know anything, they are saying you have little experience with Tojil, as you have confirmed by saying you have fought him only a single time. No matter the skill of the group, number of people, or anything else on the subject, it matters not, you have very little experience with the NM compared to others with much greater experience, which was part of the point of the entire Tojil debate here.

Also, in the 11 years, the game has changed, never before now could we have 2 SCH/BLM keep a NM stunned at nearly all times of a battle, also, we could never stun every attack, and every attack was not certain death, admittedly we have gotten past the part where all attacks kill you, but some of them are still so deadly that its a stun or die kinda game we play. So even if you have experience for the last 11 years, it means jack when your fighting something that attacks with types of things you have never had to really deal with before, such as Lahar, which causes weakness without killing you, a type of attack VW temps let us avoid, and only those few people who did Legion really experienced issues with before Adoulin. While you have this experience, in this case, its different, the only content in a while people have had to fight like Delve Bosses, were Legion NMs, so unless you did Legion, you really don't have as much experience in the field as you believe you do in my opinion.

And what experience do I ultimately need to do my part in an 18 man alliance? If I play WHM, cure, buff, conserve MP, common strategy such as casting Flash when Boss TPs, using Maytr when too much hate has been generated from cures. Casting cure on Tanker giving temp stoneskin when mob TPs. Quick reflex cast barspells according to mobs Spellcasting. Use devotion on important job in party such as PLD.

What more can I do in a 17 man party other than know my job, listen to instruction, work as a team. I don't need to play Tojil and win to qualify the title of "I'm elite"

I know how to play several jobs and I know them well enough to know how to contribute my share and more.

That's what 8+ hours of solo practice everyday for many years and going back to help lower levels fight Taxet, and other bosses plus spending endless hours in WoE provided training so I could know how to be ready for events like a Tojil.

Maybe you need to party with me more DJ so you can make a better judgement of how I play because others that have played with me can't say jack about my skills and those who made an assumption before playing with me were proven wrong.

Every time I play with my JP LS we try to kill boss with least amount of people that others try to do with 18 man alliance.

[Demon6324236]

I don't need to play Tojil and win to qualify the title of "I'm elite"Were not talking about you being 'elite' we are talking about you being experienced with a NM, experience with you lack.


Maybe you need to party with me more DJ so you can make a better judgement of how I play because others that have played with me can't say jack about my skills and those who made an assumption before playing with me were proven wrong.I said nothing about your overall skill or anything of the sort, this is one of your issues you are having here. This is not about your skill, your intellect, or anything of the sort, its simply a matter of experience, and now that you have said you have only fought Tojil once, it really comes down to the fact you simply do not have that experience. I am not saying you have to kill 10 Tojils to be able to talk about it, I am saying that your experience with a NM or any fight in general will heavily weigh in on your ideas for how to confront it, since you lack the experience others have with the NM, you can easily end up looking foolish, as you have done a few times in this thread I believe.

[Daemon]

Were not talking about you being 'elite' we are talking about you being experienced with a NM, experience with you lack.

I said nothing about your overall skill or anything of the sort, this is one of your issues you are having here. This is not about your skill, your intellect, or anything of the sort, its simply a matter of experience, and now that you have said you have only fought Tojil once, it really comes down to the fact you simply do not have that experience. I am not saying you have to kill 10 Tojils to be able to talk about it, I am saying that your experience with a NM or any fight in general will heavily weigh in on your ideas for how to confront it, since you lack the experience others have with the NM, you can easily end up looking foolish, as you have done a few times in this thread I believe.

If its a boss I could fight solo then I could understand your argument. But as a Mage class supporting my team, the fight falls in the hands of the entire group. Not me alone.

Just because I have not been in a good group who knows what they are doing or how to kill Tojil doesn't mean I need additional experience to do it.

In the end i'm still playing the same role. Support as a Mage. If I was a DD then you could tell me that I need more experience.

You do know that the last time I played Tojil we timed out at 10% HP right? If I had all the time in the world to login and play I guarantee I would have already won long time ago.

[FrankReynolds]

Your analogy is completely irrelevant. It's one thing if I never played FFXI and only played Tojil once. It's another if I've been playing 11 years, have knowledge of game programming, know how computers and software works and have experience enough to know that playing a boss fight comes to the same conclusion.

You don't have to be a wiz kid or a genius to know that a boss fight is a boss fight.

OMG does it really take higher education to know and understand that a boss uses skills, abilities, has time limits, Spawn conditions?

You act like having 11 years of experience doesn't give me the authority to know what I'm talking about.

I've played Tojil once. Big deal. Did you kill Tojil solo? Or did you depend on 17 other people to help you? Just because I did not join a freakin group that was capable doesnt mean i'm some noob that doesn't know jack.

That's like saying big deal you played 11 years, until you beat Kirin, Byakko, Qilin, Aello, you don't know jack.

And if I'm not working 80 hours a week you wouldn't even be trying to use Tojil against me as an excuse for "You don't know what your talking about, your opinion means nothing, so until you beat Tojil, then open your mouth and talk"

Which is BS. Only elitist think this way. Playing Delve more than 200 times is enough know how Delve works. Playing Tojil 1 time is enough to know how it works.

Reading Tojil strategies is common sense before you play the boss. Do I need a PHD to learn this? Then again having 17 other people skilled, listen well to instruction and knows how to work as a team with proper gear makes a difference.

Don't single me out and think I don't know anything.

You play hip hop. I play house music. Conditions are different. I mix, You cut. In the end we are both still playing music. The difference is how you play the music. 20 years of experience is enough to have an opinion.

It's not me being elitist. It's you opining on a subject which does not effect nor concern you. You don't get to say yay or nay on the subject because you don't do the content. I have years of experience at FFXI too. We all do.

I have never raised a chocbo. Common sense dictates that no matter how qualified that I think I am to raise a chocbo (trust me, I could do it), I should leave the chcobo racing discussions up to the people who do it on a regular basis. You will never catch me in the chocobo racing threads going "HAI GAIZ! Red chocobos should be the fastest! Trust me, I hatched an egg once back in band camp".

You have no dog in the race.

[Daemon]

It's not me being elitist. It's you opining on a subject which does not effect nor concern you. You don't get to say yay or nay on the subject because you don't do the content. I have years of experience at FFXI too. We all do.

I have never raised a chocbo. Common sense dictates that no matter how qualified that I think I am to raise a chocbo (trust me, I could do it), I should leave the chcobo racing discussions up to the people who do it on a regular basis. You will never catch me in the chocobo racing threads going "HAI GAIZ! Red chocobos should be the fastest! Trust me, I hatched an egg once back in band camp".

You have no dog in the race.

I don't "do" the content now. But I "did" the content already. I chose not to play anymore because I know DEV Team needs to continue adjusting the events and add more content on top of SoA.

Therefore why waste my time playing when its "subject to change"

Besides after playing 11 years I already know what every event has to offer.

Same concept, different condition.

Unless you want to continue looking at the box and argue with someone looking at the bigger picture.

Every new expansion is like implementing beta. They add the base, build on top of it and adjust it. I don't see SoA as a finished product. That's why Id rather wait.

Look at VW. Same thing happened. Same thing happens to all events new. Buggy, unstable, unfinished until enough feedback, analyzation and adjustments are made according to how the fanbase reacts.

I choose to skip all of that and wait. Speeding through the content only means reaching the inevitable question again only to be bored, sit in town all day and do repeat me a million times events, quests til I feel like playing a violin.

In the end close your eyes. You are basically staring at graphics moving. Your character in the same position. The graphics are the only thing changing. You are just staring at the same spot the entire time as time on the real world clock is ticking.

Knowing this should tell you how important I think it is to login.

[Thorbean]

I have huge experience with an 8 track, you should send me some samples of your DJ sets so I can tell you what you are doing right/wrong.
"Same concept, different condition."

The game has been "subject to change" since it started. You do know what a version update is right?

I can't believe this thread is still going...

*I use the term "thread" quite wrongly, as this is just an argument between people who have experience with the content being debated, and 1 person without aforementioned experience.

Edit: You would rather waste your time arguing about a game you don't play, than play & enjoy the game you are wasting your time arguing about? Classic.

[Daemon]

I have huge experience with an 8 track, you should send me some samples of your DJ sets so I can tell you what you are doing right/wrong.
"Same concept, different condition."

The game has been "subject to change" since it started. You do know what a version update is right?

I can't believe this thread is still going...

*I use the term "thread" quite wrongly, as this is just an argument between people who have experience with the content being debated, and 1 person without aforementioned experience.

Edit: You would rather waste your time arguing about a game you don't play, than play & enjoy the game you are wasting your time arguing about? Classic.

Uhg not the same concept. If you were paying attention rather than jump into someone else's conversation then you'd already know that I don't have time to play anymore.

Sending you an 8 track for your opinion still would matter in the sense that you have knowledge and experience to know what you are talking about.

BIG DIFFERENCE than assuming someone who has never studied or practiced the skill and do it for a living giving you an opinion.

I've played Tojil before. Maybe didnt win but that's not my fault. I've played delve enough times to know how it works.

BIG DIFFERENCE than assuming as if I never played The event to know what you are talking about.

Why would I waste time playing a game if I'm too busy at work spending my free time on the forums in an environment where I can't play? Common sense.

[Daemon]

Funny I already said I assumed we were following the OP discussion about WR. But now the conversation seems to be minupulated into Delve/Tojil as an excuse to prove me irrelevant in my discussion which I'm not amused.

But then again Elitist are never wrong and everyone according to them under classified to their standards will always assume they are right regardless.

I wonder why we are arguing about Tojil when none of my replies were based on that? Yet you people are hounding me as if all of my comments were based on Delve when everything I replied to was based on WR.

Unless you don't know how to read and only know how to read fragments of the conversation and make assumptions based on a few replies and not the overall discussion. Or do you not know how to stay on topic?

OMG until you kill 1 mandragora you don't know what you are talking about even if you seen it 100 times, didnt engage in enough fights to know that its a mandragora oh my. Because I got 17 other people to kill it for me I'm more superior than you!!

Then people wonder why I don't play anymore.

Ill be laughing when SE implements something harder than Tojil and then people will look back and realize how stupid easy the boss became after surpassing the current content obtaining current gear. Only to realize that it might be hard now but that's only because its the current end game content.

Just like back at level 75 people thought Behemoth, Farnir, Nidhogg was impossible. I heard the same arguments you are making now.

And how funny it is that Qilin only takes 5 minutes to kill. Was it possible upon release? Gee its soooooo hard to kill 1 boss that you need to be God mode to be like us.

Whatever.

You can only go through the same routine so many times to come to the point at which I'm at now. Seen it enough times that it all looks all the same to me.

[FrankReynolds]

Funny I already said I assumed we were following the OP discussion about WR. But now the conversation seems to be minupulated into Delve/Tojil as an excuse to prove me irrelevant in my discussion which I'm not amused.

But then again Elitist are never wrong and everyone according to them under classified to their standards will always assume they are right regardless.

I wonder why we are arguing about Tojil when none of my replies were based on that? Yet you people are hounding me as if all of my comments were based on Delve when everything I replied to was based on WR.

Unless you don't know how to read and only know how to read fragments of the conversation and make assumptions based on a few replies and not the overall discussion. Or do you not know how to stay on topic?

OMG until you kill 1 mandragora you don't know what you are talking about even if you seen it 100 times, didnt engage in enough fights to know that its a mandragora oh my. Because I got 17 other people to kill it for me I'm more superior than you!!

Then people wonder why I don't play anymore.

Ill be laughing when SE implements something harder than Tojil and then people will look back and realize how stupid easy the boss became after surpassing the current content obtaining current gear. Only to realize that it might be hard now but that's only because its the current end game content.

Just like back at level 75 people thought Behemoth, Farnir, Nidhogg was impossible. I heard the same arguments you are making now.

And how funny it is that Qilin only takes 5 minutes to kill. Was it possible upon release? Gee its soooooo hard to kill 1 boss that you need to be God mode to be like us.

Whatever.

You can only go through the same routine so many times to come to the point at which I'm at now. Seen it enough times that it all looks all the same to me.


You don't have a significant amount of experience with WKR either. Dude has been trying to get you to do it with him for weeks now. What is elite about that?

The even is soooooo good, that you won't do it, but we are the ones who just need to wait...

[Daemon]

You don't have a significant amount of experience with WKR either. Dude has been trying to get you to do it with him for weeks now. What is elite about that?

The even is soooooo good, that you won't do it, but we are the ones who just need to wait...

So what is better? Play before all adjustments? Am I the only person who realizes that updates come to an end after content for the expansion reaches its intended vision?

Look at all other expansions. Was it better to play salvage, Dyna, and all other events the moment it was released? If I remember correctly everyone complained about every content.

A few months ago you guys complained WR gave you pebbles and how horrid it is to spend 10 hours of your day. Then I actually went and played Hurkaan according to the example and didnt even make it to the fight long enough to see this so called OMG Hurkaan takes 10 hours when it died in less than 2. And I only got to watch it die from 35% in less than 15 minutes.

Then I hear Yumcax takes 27 hours. I get invite at 28% and see the shout from others 5 minutes later that HP dropped to 24%.

And I'm still in Jeuno... By the time I walk to Yumcax will I even make it??

So what the hell is it?

Devs announce they will make another adjustment since the aftermath of FFXIV release. How long since I knew release was going to be on August 27th?? Is this the first game to lose a good portion of players upon a new game release?

You guys must assume I'm 10 years old with no common sense. I'm sure I have plenty of time to go back and play SoA content later but right now?

My irl priorities come first.

Same shi* different day.

[Thorbean]

Then people wonder why I don't play anymore.

You can only go through the same routine so many times to come to the point at which I'm at now. Seen it enough times that it all looks all the same to me.

Better watch out guys, this guy is so awesome at the game, he can beat it without actually beating it.
*Insert masturbation joke here*

Joking aside, I don't wonder why you don't play anymore. The only thing I'm wondering is, how long we will have to wait until you take it a step further and stop posting nonsense, off topic gibberish and theory craft.

As a note, please stop bringing up your life outside of FFXI. Nobody is interested in any of that and this isn't your personal blog. The people who come here, are here to discuss (DISCUSS!) FFXI. They are not here to be preached to or to have perfectly reasonable requests shot down repeatedly by some random person with no authority or say in anything.
If you object to a suggestion, that's fine. Post your grievance then move on, instead of forcing your view down peoples throats... For 60 pages...

Having an opinion is one thing. Pushing that opinion on everyone repeatedly and refusing to take a step back and accept that maybe *Shock Horror!* you are actually wrong causes nothing but headaches for everyone.

There's a huge difference between having a strong belief and being pig-headed. You sir, are infuriatingly pig-headed.

Note: before you get butt-hurt because i said you have the head of a pig: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pig-headed

Now quick, you better post a reply otherwise you'll lose the argument on the internet!
That's what this boils down to right?
Ps. I won't be reading it.

Edit: regarding "5 mins later it was down to 25%, will I even make it to XXXX boss in time?".
You are showing just how out of touch you are with these events. A lot of the time, when people shout "50%", what they actually mean is "80%" but it's going so slowly they want more people to enter quickly.
"25%" is often actually 40-50% but the fight has dragged on for so long people are desperate for more assistance. Players don't want to join at 90%, they want to join at ~20%.

[Umichi]

I personally play this just like any other FF these days. I don't worry about parties and I only play with friends and linkshell members.. I know people in the game world... and people know me...we might do more endgame together because of that... But remember this is a FF first and foremost and at it's heart is an engaging enviroment for everyone... because it's a FF game.. deamon speaks upon experience.. he's been playing for eleven years... he doesn't need to do an event to not understand it.... why? because all it is is fighting! lol I've only been playing on and off for 4-5 years now... and It's still a challenge to do things my way in this game because everyone is obssesed with endgame statistics... they only look at gear and focus on DPS.... It's why I wish I knew more Japanese lol I have plenty experience interactng with JP over my time adventuring in vanadiel and you can def tell the difference in styles on how JP and NA play and the structure.


as far as WR's go Since I only play 1-2 jobs I've pretty much gotten all I've ever needed from WKR and I did it on each and every run. since SE plans on maybe implementing a repeatable reward system for it If I ever decide to level something else (perhaps on an alt) I'll be able to work on it easier and more efficiently perhaps doing yet again only a single run-through to get all the gear I needed from it.

without the need to repeat...


Delve on the other hand... bleh so hard to get into a NA delve because they want you geared to the teeth.... I've gotten to tojil before with a JP group with 15 mins left and it was my first attempt with them.

other delve bosses are another story... hopefully if i ever need gear from them I'll have enough skill or power to defeat them lol... again a repeatable system for rewards would benifit us greatly! But for now I have what I want except tojils head for ukupirex lol.... Still building gungnir!!!!

[Daemon]

deamon speaks upon experience.. he's been playing for eleven years... he doesn't need to do an event to not understand it.... why? because all it is is fighting!

Finally someone gets it.... And that's all it becomes once you reach end game. Same routine, different conditions. In the end? Just more reasons to stare at the computer screen endless hours a day trying to watch graphics move.

@Thorbean I'm not even reading your replies. Waste of time lol. You go group up those haters and earn those awesome "likes"

How many times have we been at end game content lol? People thought level 50 was the end. Then 55. Then 60, then 65, and 70, 75.

Gawd I'm just sick of it already...

While you people think Tojil is the end... I was there when people thought King Behemoth was the end...

When Meteor one shot everybody on the map lol.

[Umichi]

Personally I've just learned to ignore people who think their perspective is absolute... sure I'll talk with em but gah.....

Outside of that Deamon I play FF just to have fun it's one of my luxuries in life I pay for. FF has been with me since 7 and I <3 it! I feel your pain however I still play it because it's a game... to hell with getting the gear as fast as possible... specially when everyone tries to be carbon copies....

[Daemon]

Personally I've just learned to ignore people who think their perspective is absolute... sure I'll talk with em but gah.....

Outside of that Deamon I play FF just to have fun it's one of my luxuries in life I pay for. FF has been with me since 7 and I <3 it! I feel your pain however I still play it because it's a game... to hell with getting the gear as fast as possible... specially when everyone tries to be carbon copies....

Yeah that's how I was playing FFXI. Taking my time to enjoy the content than speed right throught it as if DEV TEAM is going to pump out more every update.

Then when they stop adding content those who sped through it are going to complain and ask for more rather than accept that the vision of the expansion has an end.

Most fun I have is playing with JP LS. Can be any job and it doesn't matter. We play for fun. Not statistics. So what if items don't drop lol. We just play again. It's who you play with that counts.

I don't go back and help lower levels just to be nice. I go back to meet players I know someday will catch up and join the bigger groups later. Make friends and get to know the people who are playing on our server. After all its those people you do stuff with in the end.

It's not the end of the world lol. OMG I better get all my items before the world ends!!! Lol that's how I see people today.

[Daemon]

King behemoth wasn't even on my screen when we all wiped out damn that meteor had such a godly range... And people crying over events today that its too hard or too long lol.

I remember when we actually had to rotate parties and drop dead people's to keep the fight going. All the dead people's had to run far off the map to unweaken, regroup and wait after new party formed ready for invite.

Once meteor went off that's when everyone had to reform and compete over losing claim to other HNMLS waiting to steal claim from you.

Lol those days were fun.

Damn lost claim, its ok we'll steal it back once they wipe lol.. Go send a paladin to watch them die. Lol

It's ok my mule is dead in the middle of the map lol..

Then take screenshots of everyone wiped out while KB on top of us.

Earn 75k Bayld to play 1 time is so hard compared to waiting on the map 1 week real time or spam checking Behemoths domain, sounding the siren to get everyone over to the map fast enough to claim boss before other LSs catch on and beat you to the chase.

Yeah I dunno what I'm talking about until I can get 17 other people to kill Tojil for me. Only til then I can make an opinion that matters.

[FrankReynolds]

Yeah, the Japanese shouts this morning really show how much better they are than NA players who just care about winning the fastest...


[05:10:02] Platinumrose : ぬるぬるメナポモリマー参加希望者いらっしゃいませんか〜？6/18 ナ。コ。詩。学。竜。風できるかた大募集〜〜
EastAduolin
[05:12:26] Platinumrose : ぬるぬるメナポモリマー参加希望者いらっしゃいませんか〜？8/18 ナ。コ。詩。学。竜。風できるかた大募集〜〜
EastAduolin
[05:21:33] Platinumrose : ぬるぬるメナポモリマー参加希望者いらっしゃいませんか〜？9/18 ナ。コ。詩。学。竜。風できるかた大募集〜〜
WestAdoulin
[05:23:41] Platinumrose : ぬるぬるメナポモリマー参加希望者いらっしゃいませんか〜？9/18 ナ。コ。詩。学。竜。風できるかた大募集〜〜

In case you can't read that, they are shouting for bard, scholar and dragoon... soooooo different from those evil NA players. Way different...

I wonder why they won't take a skilled thief or an awesome Dancer or a super sexy summoner... must be something I'm too culturally challenged to understand. It could't be because they are *Gasp* humans just like the rest of us with wants and needs just like the rest of us.

[Umichi]

looks like they are filling the primary spots from the looks of the squigglies and your helpful explaination. Most JP do that vs Filling up then finding the crucial jobs.

and isn't that a shout for plasm run?

[Slaxx]

Every morning I get home from work and this thread is like Domino's.

[Daemon]

Every morning I get home from work and this thread is like Domino's.

Atleast you have something to read and reply to. Lately game has been slow? Forums have been dead too.

[FrankReynolds]

looks like they are filling the primary spots from the looks of the squigglies and your helpful explaination. Most JP do that vs Filling up then finding the crucial jobs.

and isn't that a shout for plasm run?

Yes, it is a plasm run. You can't really control what jobs people come as in WKR. You may have missed that part of the thread, but earlier it was asserted that JP are far superior to players from all other regions due to their ability to beat any event by allowing party members to come on whatever jobs they want and developing their strategies around the jobs they have instead of being stubborn and greedy like everyone else and insisting that people come on the jobs that work best for the event.

There are English speaking shells that don't care what job you come on because they care more about playing together than winning as well. They are generally known as "Social shells" and are not unique to the JP culture. You or Daemon may know a JP shell like this and may not know any British shells that are like this, but that does not mean that all JP shells / people are like this or that all British people are like that.

Using such a small sample size is an incredibly bad way to form an opinion about an entire race, culture or in this case language. It's a pretty bad way to form an opinion about pretty much anything really, but especially people. It really has no place here. Anybody who can spend 60 pages arguing this crap should have poked into the JP forums by now, taken a quick perusal using Google translate (if they don't speak JP) and realized that they complain about all the same stuff we do.


Easy to judge a shout. ... Just looking at that shout doesn't say anything.

Yes it does. It says that they want the right jobs. These JP people aren't just going for fun and camaraderie like you claim that all JP people do. They are breaking your phony ethnic stereotypes and playing the game to win and obtain gear just like everyone else does.

[detlef]

looks like they are filling the primary spots from the looks of the squigglies and your helpful explaination. Most JP do that vs Filling up then finding the crucial jobs.

and isn't that a shout for plasm run?An NM run is a plasm run. It's 9,750 plasm plus anything you get from fodder if you kill the I-V. Now that the general population understands the Delve NM mechanics and has better gear, it makes far more sense to farm plasm this way. Even under perfect conditions, you'd still be limited by respawns if you targeted fodder only. So this shout is very likely targeting NMs with the hope of also defeating Tojil for an additional 60k plasm on top of the 9,750.

With that in mind, he probably can't afford to invite more than a couple of "non-optimal" jobs.

[Umichi]

I think you have all exhausted that conversation however....

[Demon6324236]

Basically yeah. So far as drops go the two opinions which I believe were expressed are...

A: Items should be made 100% always so a person can cap out on gear for sure after 4~6 fights.

B: Items should not be made 100% however other rewards should be enticing enough to make it worth returning in the future rather than simply awarding you a pebble upon repeat unlucky kills.

I personally still side with A, and I believe Ultimas sides with B.

[detlef]

I just remembered, when Yumcax came out, JPs wouldn't even shout for it. They would somehow communicate to each other to gather en masse in Yorcia, and the only way an NA would know it was happening would be to constantly /sea the zone. The JPs actually went out of their way to exclude NAs by keeping the run on the down low.

[Daemon]

Basically yeah. So far as drops go the two opinions which I believe were expressed are...

A: Items should be made 100% always so a person can cap out on gear for sure after 4~6 fights.

B: Items should not be made 100% however other rewards should be enticing enough to make it worth returning in the future rather than simply awarding you a pebble upon repeat unlucky kills.

I personally still side with A, and I believe Ultimas sides with B.

I do side with B in the sense that if everyone got 100% drop, how long will people play the event? Unless I am misunderstanding please explain it to me. I think in 1 week the majority would end the event and anyone who was out of luck to login or did not play during the week everyone went to play and got everything they wanted, how many people will complain they cant get anyone interested enough to go back and play?

VW in its current state should show you this example. No one does this event because the items are now irrelevant. If players got everything they wanted from WR, eventually getting 150 people to join will continue to drop until no one is left to play.

Which would only make it harder for those who didnt play get what they need. Unless they can kill these bosses low man.

Then again tell me what you will do after WR becomes dead, Skirmish and Delve becomes dead?

[Demon6324236]

What I do now, do Tojil daily with a friend, talk to friends, help people out, and make gil where possible so I can afford things I may need in the future. I gave up on WKs, I didn't complete the content, I gave up on it, which ended its life span where it was no matter if I had what I needed or not, which I don't. Skirmish is to much random with augments which gives me 0 incentive to keep going back, I know my chances at getting augments worth a damn are minor, so I rather not even waste my time. I need content to be progressive, not luck based, for me to be motivated to do it, because there is a trackable amount of progress in everything I do, which means in the end I will always get my reward, and a random number generator will not screw me.

So you ask what is there to do when WK Skirmish & Delve are dead? What I do now, because to me, they are already dead, I own all of the Delve gear except the Shark dagger & the bee accessories, and those I don't care about, the other 2 events are already dead to me.

[Daemon]

What I do now, do Tojil daily with a friend, talk to friends, help people out, and make gil where possible so I can afford things I may need in the future. I gave up on WKs, I didn't complete the content, I gave up on it, which ended its life span where it was no matter if I had what I needed or not, which I don't. Skirmish is to much random with augments which gives me 0 incentive to keep going back, I know my chances at getting augments worth a damn are minor, so I rather not even waste my time. I need content to be progressive, not luck based, for me to be motivated to do it, because there is a trackable amount of progress in everything I do, which means in the end I will always get my reward, and a random number generator will not screw me.

So you ask what is there to do when WK Skirmish & Delve are dead? What I do now, because to me, they are already dead, I own all of the Delve gear except the Shark dagger & the bee accessories, and those I don't care about, the other 2 events are already dead to me.

Already dead to you. I know you go back and help others. But what happens when all of the events are dead to everyone else? And will everybody be as nice as you?

Personally I did not reach the point you are at. And I am not bored of Delve, WR and I am looking forward to playing skirmish once my heavy schedule changes.

Since these events are not dead. I know I can still join in and do it at random times.

Before SE made WoE easier. Every morning at 10AM EST I ran to WoE. Even though we only could get enough people to play once a day. It was something I knew I could join in every morning.

Then SE made it too easy to the point everyone slammed it to death and now everyone I knew and met, made friends and played WoE with no longer play anymore.

Sad.. I actually enjoyed the event until SE killed it.

People from WoE use to message me every morning asking if I wanted to play with them. This is what I meant by actually playing the game with people rather join instant groups with people you only play with for that event.

No time to get to know anyone except at the moment in question but that moment time wasted trying to figure out if the people in your group is experienced enough and know how to follow instructions than spend the time to actually have fun and do stuff together.

And the more people added to the equation makes it harder to get to know people.

It's likes showing up to a concert joining people with the same interest but you don't actually get to know anyone during the event.

[Demon6324236]

Again I say, if SE made items drop 100% of the time every kill and you could cap out on gear in 6 kills, it would be no different than if you needed on average 15 kills to get every item. Why? Because on average everyone will kill it 15 times, so the average person who starts 3 months after its out, will have to kill it 15 times, just like the average person when it first came out, and that means that the majority of people will probably not get it if they started late. At the same time, if its 100% always, then theres a chance that someone will go back & assist, they know theres a good shot at you getting what you need, so their time wont be wasted, and they are not playing with nothing but luck. If you make it super luck based, people are less likely to go back for that reason, and less likely to help others, instead of helping and keeping it alive I think it more often than not hurts those who are slow to catch up because no one wants to go back & deal with luck to help a friend get something.

Another way to go about it would be to adjust the rates to be better every update, but that requires constant upkeep, and SE cant afford to do that these days on this game.

[Daemon]

Again I say, if SE made items drop 100% of the time every kill and you could cap out on gear in 6 kills, it would be no different than if you needed on average 15 kills to get every item. Why? Because on average everyone will kill it 15 times, so the average person who starts 3 months after its out, will have to kill it 15 times, just like the average person when it first came out, and that means that the majority of people will probably not get it if they started late. At the same time, if its 100% always, then theres a chance that someone will go back & assist, they know theres a good shot at you getting what you need, so their time wont be wasted, and they are not playing with nothing but luck. If you make it super luck based, people are less likely to go back for that reason, and less likely to help others, instead of helping and keeping it alive I think it more often than not hurts those who are slow to catch up because no one wants to go back & deal with luck to help a friend get something.

Another way to go about it would be to adjust the rates to be better every update, but that requires constant upkeep, and SE cant afford to do that these days on this game.

Lol I am not confident that people would go back and help others. If that was the case I would have seen it when people complained about Delve. And so many people I've helped wouldn't be saying how rare it is to see others help lower levels.

So many people complained they could not get into a plasm party.

You and several others wrote too many comments of how horrible WR is because it takes too long to kill bosses for crap loots and items. And then say you gave up all together doesn't help me understand how making an event easier so people can get their items guaranteed 100% is going to make people go back and help those who don't have anything.

Unless boss fight only took 30 minutes to kill and only 18 people requirement.

If it takes over 100 people to kill Yumcax and Hurkan and everyone except a minor average of 20-30 people per day needed to get stuff. How will it be trying to find over 100 people to help if people are complaining they can't even get 1 person to help them farm +2's?

Sorry but help me to understand because I'm just use to so many people turn me down and say

"Go solo it yourself"

If its a matter of feeling like their time won't be wasted, who is considerate and kind enough to still dedicate 10 hours to help someone if they are not getting something out of it?

Who is to say once everyone gets everything they want will even login anymore when the majority, if not all, accomplishments were made?

I mean I already stopped playing for now because I see it as pointless to rush through to the end only to be bored there's nothing else to do but sit in town all day.

[Karah]

Going on a SEVENTEEN HOUR Yumcax on Carbuncle...

Quite a bit excessive. Don't you agree?

And for another Pebble?

Not amused.

[Daemon]

Going on a SEVENTEEN HOUR Yumcax on Carbuncle...

Quite a bit excessive. Don't you agree?

And for another Pebble?

Not amused.

Aftermath of FFXIV? I would assume DEV team would be aware that an adjustment needs to be made now that the conditions have changed due to lack of players available on the servers.

In my opinion though they are probably waiting for that free month of sub to run out on 14 to see who is going to stay or continue to play by pay.

Maybe then they can analyze to see how many FFXI players will return.

[Karah]

Yumcax finally ended.

Started around 6 PM EST yesterday, ended just shy of 11 AM EST today. /absurd.

And I got a lovely spider web to show for it *psyched*.

[Daemon]

Yumcax finally ended.

Started around 6 PM EST yesterday, ended just shy of 11 AM EST today. /absurd.

And I got a lovely spider web to show for it *psyched*.

Yeah this is an example of why Im not playing FFXI right now. And why I said I'm waiting for the drama to be sorted out first.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/35776-Wildskeeper-Reive-Feedback?p=466876#post466876

I wonder how many joined in at 25% and got rare item?

[Umichi]

I still somehow don't believe fights are going on this long... my server when people gather can down it in less than 2-3 hours which is quite something cause we sit at 50% in yorcia Would prolly only be an hour or so if we stayed capped....

[Karah]

Somehow you would be wrong if you didn't think morons can turn a 60 minute fight into a 24 hour wtfisgoingonfest.

[Daemon]

Somehow you would be wrong if you didn't think morons can turn a 60 minute fight into a 24 hour wtfisgoingonfest.

I agree with you. It's possible lol.

[Fynlar]

Fights ARE still going on that long, due to diminished interest. It really depends on how long it takes to get enough CORs out there, and nowadays there are definitely fewer CORs interested than there were up until the first few weeks or so after the Order Up quest was released. (This isn't helped by the fact that Quick Draw receives a pitiful amount of bayld in reives, seemingly independent of the amount of damage that it does, meaning CORs will always get a crappy bayld return and will end up having to pay more bayld to do the fight than most other jobs there.)

Melees are overall way better geared and are far more capable of dealing with the trash mobs nowadays, but they still can't really do jack squat to Yumcax without soon being 1-2 shotted.

[Daemon]

Fights ARE still going on that long, due to diminished interest. It really depends on how long it takes to get enough CORs out there, and nowadays there are definitely fewer CORs interested than there were up until the first few weeks or so after the Order Up quest was released. (This isn't helped by the fact that Quick Draw receives a pitiful amount of bayld in reives, seemingly independent of the amount of damage that it does, meaning CORs will always get a crappy bayld return and will end up having to pay more bayld to do the fight than most other jobs there.)

Melees are overall way better geared and are far more capable of dealing with the trash mobs nowadays, but they still can't really do jack squat to Yumcax without soon being 1-2 shotted.

Yeah I sense another adjustment coming soon. The DEVS already made a comment about adjusting the event by adding more to it.

I'm sure they will analyze the population and do something to make WR playable again.


(Before my words get twisted and thrown back in my face by others for cheerleading the DEV TEAM)

In a sense that its too hard right now due to the lack of people. I believe DEVs are smart enough to make adjustments before even more people lose interest in the event and in the game itself.

[detlef]

Fights ARE still going on that long, due to diminished interest. It really depends on how long it takes to get enough CORs out there, and nowadays there are definitely fewer CORs interested than there were up until the first few weeks or so after the Order Up quest was released. (This isn't helped by the fact that Quick Draw receives a pitiful amount of bayld in reives, seemingly independent of the amount of damage that it does, meaning CORs will always get a crappy bayld return and will end up having to pay more bayld to do the fight than most other jobs there.)

Melees are overall way better geared and are far more capable of dealing with the trash mobs nowadays, but they still can't really do jack squat to Yumcax without soon being 1-2 shotted.It's not even an issue of CORs anymore. BLM and SCH can kill things just fine. I find the biggest issue now is that tanks can't hold hate, either because they are dying or somebody else is over-nuking.

[Daemon]

It's not even an issue of CORs anymore. BLM and SCH can kill things just fine. I find the biggest issue now is that tanks can't hold hate, either because they are dying or somebody else is over-nuking.

This would be exactly something I would say.
And when I talked like this in my previous posts people get on my case for being ignorant and then start using examples like Tojil to make me sound unworthy to comment or know what im talking about.

[detlef]

This would be exactly something I would say.
And when I talked like this in my previous posts people get on my case for being ignorant and then start using examples like Tojil to make me sound unworthy to comment or know what im talking about.Good lord, are you going to include that in every single post you make? You sound so butt hurt.

Bad things happen in every way you can imagine in WKR. I mention hate being iffy, but that can be caused by many things. Dying to overpowered AoEs, getting killed by adds, healers getting killed/debuffed by adds, tenuous hate due to overzealous DD. In some cases it's just strategy but in most cases it's just a case of insufficient manpower. All the other issues including mpk and afk are still omnipresent.

[Fynlar]

It's not even an issue of CORs anymore. BLM and SCH can kill things just fine.

Not very well, with the col% being as low as it is, at least on my server.

[Daemon]

Good lord, are you going to include that in every single post you make? You sound so butt hurt.

Bad things happen in every way you can imagine in WKR. I mention hate being iffy, but that can be caused by many things. Dying to overpowered AoEs, getting killed by adds, healers getting killed/debuffed by adds, tenuous hate due to overzealous DD. In some cases it's just strategy but in most cases it's just a case of insufficient manpower. All the other issues including mpk and afk are still omnipresent.

What does this have anything to do with my response as to my reply from the one you made before that?

You criticize me about the examples I gave as defense to those criticizing me about playing 11 years doesn't merit a person knowledge to know how events work.

And now you are criticizing me about WR.

All bosses uses abilities, spells set on timers and conditions.

Big deal.

There is nothing new about bosses wiping out people in 1 or 2 shots. That's why I said King Behemoth did it back when those bosses were the end game.

And still people don't get that you don't need a PHD to understand this...

Then again you wouldn't be wiping out in 1-2 hits after you obtain all gear and weapons from WR and then go back and fight them again.


That's how progression works.

[Lefein]

It is the way of the paladin, you should be the first to die and the last to surrender.

Best line in the entire thread right here.

[detlef]

Not very well, with the col% being as low as it is, at least on my server.What's your colonization at? Ours is almost always around 50%.

[Daemon]

Bad things happen in every way you can imagine in WKR. I mention hate being iffy, but that can be caused by many things. Dying to overpowered AoEs, getting killed by adds, healers getting killed/debuffed by adds, tenuous hate due to overzealous DD. In some cases it's just strategy but in most cases it's just a case of insufficient manpower. All the other issues including mpk and afk are still omnipresent.

Here let me rephrase my comment better.

All bosses have skills and abilities. Some bosses have skills that render a party completely helpless regardless of your level and gear. I've seen this by bosses like Chloris. And flux 10 in WoE.

Doom.

Then you have bosses that are impossible to fight as a DD. They debuff you to the point you can't move, can't run, or have a skill like enpetrify. Each hit petrify you.

I saw this from Mingyl in Flux 15 WoE. That's why playing job like BST and summoner is popular.

Then you have bosses that use instant AoE ability where everyone wipe out instantly. Like being level 50 fighting King Behemoth. Meteor instant wipe.

I never said PLD was ever useful for melee. Obviously the job was made to be a tanker. Great for kiting and holding off mobs to let people pass areas. Human Shield to prevent mass casualties.

Some bosses Banish help. Some bosses Dia III help. If boss hits are too strong obviously using Bio to reduce hit damage out weigh if not enough player have good defense.

Both Dia III and Bio don't stack and they can only overwrite each other based on Tier level.

Then you have people who don't know how elements work and how to stack 3 DOT spells.

Some bosses have condition where pet give power to boss like Provedence Watcher or the Wyvern in flux 7. Kill pet otherwise boss becomes impossible to fight.

Some bosses have time limits. Like Delve, NNI, Salvage.

Point is as long as you have the right team, well geared, right jobs, right strategy, no idiots or 1 man show to disrupt the strategy, enough players, then bosses were implemented with some way to accomplish win.

It's not impossible otherwise DEV TEAM would never implement an objective if there was no possible way to win.

Using the proper abilities, spells, anyone can figure out how to win.

This is the very reason Ive been practicing over 8 hours a day. To figure out what gear to reduce damage. To reduce Stone, Ice, Thunder, Wind, Water, Earth.

What spells boss is weak to like Ice deal more damage to Wind type monsters.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/wiki/Mobs_Elemental_Weakness_Chart

People don't study this anymore since Skillchains parties have been thrown out the window.

I study jobs to see what spells and buffs can make a difference.

Bard with barstone, Shell V, Earth Carol I, II.
MDEF, MDT, MDB gear. Using Rune Knight abilities to bring magic protection.

Practicing kiting, dodging, and yes running out of distance from AoE spells. Remember when you did it at level 5? Bomb toss?

Although running away arms flailing in the air is only practiced in parties that wipe out. >.>

Gear swapping is a skill too.

What items to bring, weapons that give MP in emergency instances, food.

Knowing when to use a certain Subjob like Ninja to avoid spells.

If boss only cast single spells, obviously showing up with members with /NIN will make things easy.

This is what I was being criticized for. My experience and knowledge as if I'm someone who just joined the game, FC to 99 and have no right to speak.

Telling me I have to play the event long enough to say anything is irrelevant. If it can be won, then there is a way.

People complain when new boss implemented. Get the items and gear those boss drop first, go back and play it and then complain how hard it is was the point I was making.

In the end all bosses are bosses that use skills, abilities, and other conditions with the same objective. Fight, Kill and win reward.

Same concept, different conditions.

[Daemon]

As for WR. Some people take half an hour or more to get to the place. Others take hours to get a party together and get everyone there.

If the boss takes 5-10 hours to kill, either lack of man power or lack of skill.

But in reality when 150+ players are able to join 1 boss fight, how long does it take all 150 people to get there and fight? To me if you got there early, you are holding the boss for others to arrive and participate.

Unless you expect boss to die in 5 minutes then the condition will be made to kill the same monster a million times to get your item.

Is that what you want?

[Demon6324236]

Unless you expect boss to die in 5 minutes then the condition will be made to kill the same monster a million times to get your item.

Is that what you want?No, and that's not proper balance either.

[Daemon]

No, and that's not proper balance either.

Exactly. But that's exactly how it will be. Look at VW. The only reason you spammed less is because you had more bosses to fight, and a big storyline to go with it.

Stones replenishing or how much Gil you had to buy voiddust was the time limit used to stall.

Max Limit to 18 people.

This is why I said balance is like a rope with 1 person on 1 side and 1 person on the other.

If you adjust it to be good for 1 side, the other side will have it worse.

I'm sure every event DEVs make are intended to last as long as possible. Not 1-6 months but as long as it can last.

Now if WR and Delve were designed to be the only end game content with no further plans to add anything else from here on out, what will you do when you get everything?

Eventually the spoil cookie train will have to end. Unless you are expecting DEV Team to implement more and more content all the time?

[Demon6324236]

See here's the issue, you keep talking about how doing 1 thing makes it worse on the other, as though they have no choice but to make the drop rates suck ass if the fight itself takes less than multiple hours. That isn't the case, you can make an event which is both rewarding, and keeps people active and enjoying themselves, rather than always having to have either a long battle with a good chance of reward, or a short battle with nearly no chance at reward.

If you want an example of this, Delve is the best one I can think of. Delve bosses take 30~45 minutes for a full run, they always drop 4 pieces of gear, 2 craft materials, and 3 Airlixirs, and yet people still do them a ton!

[Daemon]

See here's the issue, you keep talking about how doing 1 thing makes it worse on the other, as though they have no choice but to make the drop rates suck ass if the fight itself takes less than multiple hours. That isn't the case, you can make an event which is both rewarding, and keeps people active and enjoying themselves, rather than always having to have either a long battle with a good chance of reward, or a short battle with nearly no chance at reward.

If you want an example of this, Delve is the best one I can think of. Delve bosses take 30~45 minutes for a full run, they always drop 4 pieces of gear, 2 craft materials, and 3 Airlixirs, and yet people still do them a ton!

First...


Currently, in addition to obtaining rewards directly from defeating a Naakual, it's possible to obtain an item of your choice after fulfilling certain requirements for the Celennia Memorial Library. However, we'll be adding yet another way to obtain Naakual items by fulfilling requirements in content that is to be added in the future.

We'll also be adding geomancy and other magic scrolls, coupons you can use to exchange for Bayld, and other items that have a bit more value to the current material slot.

Second, Delve bosses drop rank gear that is like dropping base item same as Nyzul, NNI, Dyna. Delve Megaboss gear is harder to obtain because the requirement based on time limit and the objective to kill all other bosses.

Which is harder for everyone to obtain. Not the same as WR where anyone can join in at 15% and do minimal work and still get a chance to get item.

Or do a quest and get 1 item guaranteed.

When everyone gets these all of items what will be the outcome of power the entire community will have?

What other goals will be left after everyone gets these items?

I wonder how high the ladder will continue to go up?

Then again its easy to earn 30k plasm in 4 delve runs. Which anyone can buy 1 delve in less than half a day.

Delve has a variety of items compared to WR. Which I still think WR weapons are like obtaining something like REM. you are asking for these to drop like water.

Am I the only one here that thinks rare items are worth the effort??? Meant to last? The reward of earning a difficult item separates you between others in power? That your reward of that power was given because you earned it???

Making things effortless only for everyone to reach the end again? That's why too many REM people complained endlessly.

It's like if it wasnt bad enough that everyone who spent over a year earned a relic and spent 200+ mil Gil to make one only to see everyone get a Nakuul weapon drop without any effort. Because that was what you are saying why cant these items drop 100% like Delve?

This game blows already for going in the direction of so much convenience, instant gratification.

It's like what will happen if you see everyone running around with a Yagrush??


People already speeding to the end faster than ever. You want everyone to speed past to the end again? The more power you gain, the faster you will play the game. And then you wonder why DEVs make these fights to be so long.

All other content is dead. Want SoA to be dead too? That's the way I see it happening after everyone is done getting all the rewards.

[FrankReynolds]

People want progression. They want to know that what they are doing is making a difference. Random drops on 3-??? Fights are not progression. Even if they add other less valuable items as incentive to keep coming back. The primary drop item needs to have a reasonable and easily understandable path to obtainment. Otherwise people get discouraged and quit chasing it.

If people know they will have their desired item after 10 runs, they do 10 runs (Example). Devs should set the number of required repeats to be commensurate with the value of the item and the amount of time that they want people to continue the event.

If people know that it may take them 1 run or 1,000 runs, they give up after 5 (arbitrary numbers for example). That is what happened very quickly here. That is what will continue to happen because everyone knows that whatever the item it is, it will probably only be valuable for a very short amount of time. The longer it takes to obtain, the less time you are in possession of something of valuable.

You should never have to spend hours, days, weeks, months on an event without ever achieving your goal. We have real life to crush our souls and steal our innocence. Video games are for escape. The secondary drops, like scrolls, currency, etc. should be a bonus for people who want to come back and help. They should never be a consolation prize for the guy who did the event 1,000 times and never got his drop.

All that other stuff you are talking is nonsense.

[Daemon]

People want progression. They want to know that what they are doing is making a difference. Random drops on 3-??? Fights are not progression. Even if they add other less valuable items as incentive to keep coming back. The primary drop item needs to have a reasonable and easily understandable path to obtainment. Otherwise people get discouraged and quit chasing it.

If people know they will have their desired item after 10 runs, they do 10 runs (Example). Devs should set the number of required repeats to be commensurate with the value of the item and the amount of time that they want people to continue the event.

If people know that it may take them 1 run or 1,000 runs, they give up after 5 (arbitrary numbers for example). That is what happened very quickly here. That is what will continue to happen because everyone knows that whatever the item it is, it will probably only be valuable for a very short amount of time. The longer it takes to obtain, the less time you are in possession of something of valuable.

You should never have to spend hours, days, weeks, months on an event without ever achieving your goal. We have real life to crush our souls and steal our innocence. Video games are for escape. The secondary drops, like scrolls, currency, etc. should be a bonus for people who want to come back and help. They should never be a consolation prize for the guy who did the event 1,000 times and never got his drop.

All that other stuff you are talking is nonsense.

This proves my point. End game players are hard to please. You have nothing else to do but 3 events right now. Delve, Wildskeeper Rieves and Skirmish.

Any other events out there for you?

Unless you have seen an adjustment made that sped up the event and totally kill it in less than a month, then you will continue to be stubborn.

This is exactly what happened to WoE. SE weakened all monsters, added in better drops. Killed the interest of the event that use to be thriving full of players every morning on my server.

Was it done intentionally to draw attention off that event and direct everyone to play SoA? Until another area of interest is implemented I wonder if DEV TEAM is going to kill off Delve, WR, Skirmish before that happens.

[FrankReynolds]

This proves my point. End game players are hard to please. You have nothing else to do but 3 events right now. Delve, Wildskeeper Rieves and Skirmish.

Any other events out there for you?

Unless you have seen an adjustment made that sped up the event and totally kill it in less than a month, then you will continue to be stubborn.

This is exactly what happened to WoE. SE weakened all monsters, added in better drops. Killed the interest of the event that use to be thriving full of players every morning on my server.

Was it done intentionally to draw attention off that event and direct everyone to play SoA? Until another area of interest is implemented I wonder if DEV TEAM is going to kill off Delve, WR, Skirmish before that happens.

WOE is a terrible example. SOA has better drops. The end.

[Daemon]

WOE is a terrible example. SOA has better drops. The end.

The example is not about the drops! The example was about making an event easier, therefore more items dropped faster and once everyone got everything they needed the event died.

See where your mind is? You only think about items and nothing else.

36 people was the entrance cap for each flux. If they were going to weaken all monsters and bosses to make it easier, they should have capped it lower.

People were defeating flux in less than 10 minutes after adjustments. Many people couldn't even go out and reenter fast enough to deal any damage and get max rewards.

[detlef]

Isn't your example about drops too? Weren't you trying to demonstrate that the reason people stopped doing WoE was because they got all the drops they wanted? If that's the case, couldn't the case be made that if better drops are introduced in Adoulin, THAT might be the reason people stopped showing up?

Last I checked, WoE drops are not exclusive. This means you can always sell things like Windbuffet Belt and you are never truly capped out.

Edit: I think you edited your post again. That makes it inconvenient to respond.

WoE strikes me as fundamentally different from WKR:
-The event lasts far longer than the 10 minutes like you describe for WoE;
-The event is not repeatable for 3 hours, and therefore not spammable. There is ample opportunity for anybody to get many evaluations;
-The gear is not exclusive, so there's always the gil potential,
-Fewer people doing WoE makes the event better. Fewer people doing WKR makes the event worse.

[Daemon]

Isn't your example about drops too? Weren't you trying to demonstrate that the reason people stopped doing WoE was because they got all the drops they wanted? If that's the case, couldn't the case be made that if better drops are introduced in Adoulin, THAT might be the reason people stopped showing up?

Last I checked, WoE drops are not exclusive. This means you can always sell things like Windbuffet Belt and you are never truly capped out.

The demonstration was about making an adjustment to an event where people were playing already and had a daily routine doing those events got killed off by an instant change that people thought would be better but turned out to be worse than expected.

People went there to collect items for WoE path Emp.

And No WoE died "Before" SoA.

Again adding better rewards I agree. Making them 100% drop I disagree.

Sorry let me rephrase that. Basic normal gear 100% ok. Rare powerful items like Tamaxchi 100% drop no thanks.

You have people like me who live at the event, play it everyday, and then because people claimed they were the victim of "I can't do it because its too hard" had the adjustment made for their benefit show up only to play the event 1 or 2 weeks and leave after they got what they want while its people like me who stayed there and watched it happen before my eyes.

Well damn these people don't even play the event like us, they show up, got their things and now its us is who actually enjoyed the event are left screwed because everyone who did live in WoE thought "this is pointless" and left after it happened.

It's the same feeling when you are camping an 8 hour boss only for someone to show up last minute and claim boss and kill it then leave.

[Daemon]

WoE strikes me as fundamentally different from WKR:
-The event lasts far longer than the 10 minutes like you describe for WoE;
-The event is not repeatable for 3 hours, and therefore not spammable. There is ample opportunity for anybody to get many evaluations;
-The gear is not exclusive, so there's always the gil potential,
-Fewer people doing WoE makes the event better. Fewer people doing WKR makes the event worse.

How is it inconvenient? You edit your post and I'm not complaining.

WoE last longer than 10 minutes if 36 people level 99 don't show up and destroy each flux.
The event is repeatable. 1k everytime you exit and re-enter and can be played infinite amount of time.

Ugh people went there to get WoE path Emp quest items like Liminal residue/ Devious Die. SE added Sachs like HMP pouches. Up to 19 drop per pouch. That was the main focus.
AH gear like flume belt, acesor choker etc were just money bonus for Gil.

Why do you make it sound like Rare/EX item less in value? My Dalmatica +1 is rare/ex. What does this have anything to do with worth? Just because you can't sell it means its worthless?

Gil potential means RMT can spam these bosses and make a mess ruining the event. I thought this was the reason SE implemented more rare/ex items and less Gil potential items.

In my opinion making it sellable devalues the item because anyone can sell or trade anytime they want and not even have to play the event and get it. Who's to say item like Tamaxchi won't drop down to be 500k? Based on amount of players left now, how much Gil circulate fast? Then you have people undercutting the value of such items over war of selling faster than others.

Less people does make the event better. Which right now WKR need massive amounts of people. Lets see how the new adjustment plays out though.

More people means less control, less organization between each other making strategy hard.

I'm sure once a good portion of players on your server obtain the majority of gear from Delve Megabosses, Skirmish, WR, these bosses will become a joke.

[detlef]

How is it inconvenient? You edit your post and I'm not complaining.I clearly stated that I edited it and what part of the post was edited. I had to do that because you edited your post after I had already responded. I'm saying that you make it really inconvenient for anybody trying to discuss things with you because you can't get everything in before hitting post.

It’s actually really annoying for anybody who reads it later because when you try to read the latest post, you miss edits to posts you have already read. Basically it’s just courtesy.


WoE last longer than 10 minutes if 36 people level 99 don't show up and destroy each flux.
The event is repeatable. 1k everytime you exit and re-enter and can be played infinite amount of time.

Ugh people went there to get WoE path Emp quest items like Liminal residue/ Devious Die. SE added Sachs like HMP pouches. Up to 19 drop per pouch. That was the main focus.
AH gear like flume belt, acesor choker etc were just money bonus for Gil.Yeah, I am well aware that it is repeatable. That’s a major difference between WoE and WKR. I think you are underestimating peoples’ motivations for doing WoE. Far more people than you think were doing it solely for the gil (it was the only motivation for the players in my linkshell who did it and still do it regularly). With this in mind, it is very much repeatable and more importantly farmable content that people don’t stop doing when they get a drop. This makes it fundamentally different from WKR.


Why do you make it sound like Rare/EX item less in value? My Dalmatica +1 is rare/ex. What does this have anything to do with worth? Just because you can't sell it means its worthless?Your dalm is irrelevant to this conversation. If we fabricated some fictional event, the sole reward from which being Dalmatica +1, would there be any reason for you to participate? Absolutely not. What if Dalm +1 was changed to no longer be exclusive? Then you would have a non-zero motivation to participate because you could sell the drop. That’s why WoE is repeatable. Changing the event would have no effect on the motivation of many of the participants because the repeatability is not affected.


In my opinion making it sellable devalues the item because anyone can sell or trade anytime they want and not even have to play the event and get it.This is preposterous. A non-exclusive item is far more valuable than an exclusive item. Compare Peacock Charm to Peacock Amulet. Exactly the same except one is exclusive. The Charm can be lent to a friend, sold for gil, or sent to a mule character on another account. It has far more versatility and use than the Amulet.


Less people does make the event better. Which right now WKR need massive amounts of people. Lets see how the new adjustment plays out though.Yet another difference between WoE and WKR that shows that they are not analogous.


More people means less control, less organization between each other making strategy hard.

I'm sure once a good portion of players on your server obtain the majority of gear from Delve Megabosses, Skirmish, WR, these bosses will become a joke.Exactly, you’ve touched upon why WKR sucks.

Gearing up the server won’t really affect strategies. Melee have trouble staying on things full time, so all that Delve gear doesn’t really help. You’re best off with COR and magic damage. Gear helps for this, but it’s not even anywhere near the same as giving a MNK an Oatixur. It’s not nearly enough to offset the decline in participation.

[detlef]

Eh you did it again. I'm not changing my response.

[Daemon]

Eh you did it again. I'm not changing my response.

Lol sorry I get what you are saying. I just lay down a base first and then build on top of my post and correct things I make a mistake than post 20 replies which its intended to save forum space.

Instead if erasing though I scratch out my mistake so you still see the mistake and that I corrected it.

[Daemon]

As I said before I see items like Tamaxchi the same as I see REM. which is special. Its items like Atinian staff that was made to be Gil potential and look at how that sets an example of value on the item?

Which I see SE adds both options in the update to have rare/ex and Gil potential items.

PS ill respond to your last post when I have time. I think we have a misunderstanding between each other. The arguments you and me are different topics, but it seems we are both arguing with the same agreements but misunderstanding the reason behind our debates.

[Daemon]

Question. Did you read all of my previous replies about the difference between HNMs before and now? The difference between limit and no limit?


18 man limit vs WR? Because it does make a big difference.

[FrankReynolds]

The example is not about the drops! The example was about making an event easier, therefore more items dropped faster and once everyone got everything they needed the event died.

See where your mind is? You only think about items and nothing else.

36 people was the entrance cap for each flux. If they were going to weaken all monsters and bosses to make it easier, they should have capped it lower.

People were defeating flux in less than 10 minutes after adjustments. Many people couldn't even go out and reenter fast enough to deal any damage and get max rewards.

The example is about the drops. It's always about the drops. People weren't getting drops so they quit. They didn't quit because it was easy. They didn't quit because it was short. They quit because they weren't getting the rewards they wanted.

This isn't where my "mind is". It's where almost everyone's mind is. You and me can go do ballista and garrison for as long as the day is long. Everyone else is going to keep doing whatever gives them the item or merit point or stat or whatever other reward they want.

You can make the game the way people want it to be, but you cannot make the people the way the game wants them to be.

You want to change the minds of several hundred thousand people. It's far easier to change several hundred thousand lines of code.

[Daemon]

The example is about the drops. It's always about the drops. People weren't getting drops so they quit. They didn't quit because it was easy. They didn't quit because it was short. They quit because they weren't getting the rewards they wanted.

This isn't where my "mind is". It's where almost everyone's mind is. You and me can go do ballista and garrison for as long as the day is long. Everyone else is going to keep doing whatever gives them the item or merit point or stat or whatever other reward they want.

You can make the game the way people want it to be, but you cannot make the people the way the game wants them to be.

You want to change the minds of several hundred thousand people. It's far easier to change several hundred thousand lines of code.

You want to change the world in 1 day when it can't be changed in 1 day.

Changing lines of code maybe the easy part.

Analyzing the entire server, all events, and balancing where the majority of the players are at takes time.

Who's to say that only 500 out of 2,000 players per server is at WR while the other players are at Delve/Skirmish and all other areas of SoA?

What about the people trying to enter SoA? Is this not a concern to you?

Which priority comes first?

Adjusting code for your benefit today could be done but the question is, should the DEV TEAM only cater to you and the 500 players and forget about the rest of the people?

Then again if SoA is meant to cater to 10,000 people. DEV TEAM should direct the 2,500 players to only 1 event?

Furthermore just because you think 1 event is the only thing that matters doesn't mean the rest of the content is irrelevant to the DEV TEAM.

In order to direct players to WR, all other content has a purpose. Whether you disagree with me, players are needed for everything leading up to WR.

Then again if servers only have 300-500 people and 150 of those logged in are bazaar mules, would it not make sense to analyze every moment of the day to see where the issues in activity reside and then map out a solution?

How can this be done if you expect things to be altered according to your liking?

When adjustments are made, conditions always change everyday. This is why an adjustment will never be perfect.

Did you consider that maybe WR is not meant to be the only popular part of SoA? When you are controlling an entire MMORPG, ask yourself where do you intend to direct the group of people in your game. Then you figure out how you are going to balance out the areas of interest to make all parts of the content work.

Then again power based on tier progression, how does overall community power effect the content?

Shall we direct everyone to WR and make such powerful items easy to obtain that all other content tier progression gear becomes completely irrelevant?

DEV TEAM already announced they will implement better rewards and alternative ways to obtain WR items. What more do you want?

You still complain about an issue that's already been given an answer.

[FrankReynolds]

You want to change the world in 1 day when it can't be changed in 1 day.

Changing lines of code maybe the easy part.

Analyzing the entire server, all events, and balancing where the majority of the players are at takes time.

Except they don't have to do that to know how one event is working. Not only that, but there are really only three events. Not only that, but this is just an excuse. Anything to win an argument...


Who's to say that only 500 out of 2,000 players per server is at WR while the other players are at Delve/Skirmish and all other areas of SoA?

Anybody who has actually looked... even once. And again. Just an excuse. Not real.


What about the people trying to enter SoA? Is this not a concern to you?

Of course they are a concern for me. That's why I keep arguing against your terrible views. For them.


Which priority comes first?

All of them. FFXI May be a small player base, but it is profitable and SE can afford to give it the staffing it needs.


Adjusting code for your benefit today could be done but the question is, should the DEV TEAM only cater to you and the 500 players and forget about the rest of the people?

Nobody said they should. Nice try.


Then again if SoA is meant to cater to 10,000 people. DEV TEAM should direct the 2,500 players to only 1 event?

Nobody said they should. Nice try.


Furthermore just because you think 1 event is the only thing that matters doesn't mean the rest of the content is irrelevant to the DEV TEAM.

Nobody said it was the only thing that matters. Nice try.


In order to direct players to WR, all other content has a purpose. Whether you disagree with me, players are needed for everything leading up to WR.

Okay, so on the one hand your saying that we must keep shitty drop rates or else everyone will quit WKR when they get what they want and on the other hand, you are saying we must make everyone quit WKR in order to help other people.

You should sort that out in your head. I mean really mull it over... and start over.


Then again if servers only have 300-500 people and 150 of those logged in are bazaar mules, would it not make sense to analyze every moment of the day to see where the issues in activity reside and then map out a solution?

No, there is literally a forum full of the reasons. Time is of the essence. Slow response time has been one of the biggest factors in the decline.


How can this be done if you expect things to be altered according to your liking?

I write what I like all over their website. If you can't read, how can you code? Think about it.


When adjustments are made, conditions always change everyday. This is why an adjustment will never be perfect.

Oh, well in that case, let's just not even try right? I mean it's not gonna worek anyways... might as well just go watch reruns of Lavern and Shirley.

That's the attitude!


Did you consider that maybe WR is not meant to be the only popular part of SoA? When you are controlling an entire MMORPG, ask yourself where do you intend to direct the group of people in your game. Then you figure out how you are going to balance out the areas of interest to make all parts of the content work.

Do you think you are some video game mastermind? Yes I considered that. There is a big difference between making it the "Only popular part" and the not being done at all part that it is now. Stop acting like it's all or nothing. It's not.


Then again power based on tier progression, how does overall community power effect the content?

Gibberish.


Shall we direct everyone to WR and make such powerful items easy to obtain that all other content tier progression gear becomes completely irrelevant?

Nobody asked to make WKR the only event. Stop making things up. And gear progression? That hasn't existed since SOA was released. They completely ruined it with this terrible Ilevel idea that everyone told them would suck.


DEV TEAM already announced they will implement better rewards and alternative ways to obtain WR items. What more do you want?

For the event to not require 1/4 of my server to participate. There's less than 400 people logged in some days and even during JP prime time, it seems that most of them just log in for the log in event. There is still nothing going on.


You still complain about an issue that's already been given an answer.

You complain just to complain.