This thread AGAIN, please, fix WK. [Archive] - Page 2

Daemon

08-13-2013, 04:49 AM

It only takes about an hour to earn 75k Bayld in Skirmish. We are given the ability to earn Bayld back during the fight. Boss fight is suppose to be fun. And yeah all bosses in the game have bad drop rates.

I still think these items are far more superior in power vs other drops in older content that even require much more time than this. Although I agree adding some other loot to keep people interested, speaking from the point of view of not getting one of the best items yet from any Nakuul I see that others are getting items.

In my eyes that doesn't say the event is broken.

Having the ability to jump into the fight at any moment % HP left to me is a privilege and not having to be there from start to end waiting 1 entire week or farming pop, earning Gil to buy 1 pop, WR is still easier than other events.

If 150 people joined 1 Nakuul and 0 people got an item then I could agree that the DEVs should adjust drop rate to make it easier but that's not the case and the big picture I see is that as more people get the bigger drops faster, the sooner the event will die making it even more difficult for people to earn any items.

The event is here, the moment is now I believe we should enjoy it while we can. But to say the drop rate is bad doesn't add up when you base experience from 1 point of view and not from the view of everyone who participated.

Getting nothing after 10, 20, 30 fights still doesn't compare to 600/1,000/2,000 fights or spending several months doing endless quests like Mythic. Waiting to only participate only once per day from restricted areas.

Yeah maybe bad luck plays a part but I see 1 fight has the ability to drop X amount of items and rares. And as more people participate, chances of you getting an item becomes harder.

If 18 people participate in 1 boss like Kirin, X amount of drops would be shared across 18 people but the leader would have to decide who gets to lot these items.

Then again 150+ are given the ability to have a chance of receiving a rare than the headache of killing each other over 1 drop.

I just don't see 1 boss drop 20/30/50/100 best rares out of 1 fight. And although seeing it from the point of view of spending several hours on 1 nakuul can give you the reason to feel its not worth your time, 1 kill can only offer so many items.

We just don't have the ability to see who is getting them which maybe would change everyone's point of view if SE gave indication to how many people got one of the best rares per fight.

Competition sucks but its better now than trusting leaders to decide who fairly deserves to lot a rare. Past experience didn't work because many complained they got screwed by greedy people who used others to get what they wanted.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 05:54 AM

It only takes about an hour to earn 75k Bayld in Skirmish. We are given the ability to earn Bayld back during the fight. Boss fight is suppose to be fun. And yeah all bosses in the game have bad drop rates.

1. Skirmish failed.
2. All bosses don't have bad drop rates.
3. In the beginning, you couldn't even earn half back. Now, for the old ones, they're free if they last long enough and you're famed high enough. I got about 10k from bee both times I've done it since update. I got 30k from the shark lol, so I gained 5k bayld for 4 hours. I'm stoked!

I still think these items are far more superior in power vs other drops in older content that even require much more time than this. Although I agree adding some other loot to keep people interested, speaking from the point of view of not getting one of the best items yet from any Nakuul I see that others are getting items.

You're kinda wrong. They're superior in power because they're current content drops, but a lot of people can't wrap their heads around the idea that this gear is making us be a higher level. The gear is amazing right now, but it's going to be ~entry level to manage in new delve. SE said that when they outlined all this crap.

In my eyes that doesn't say the event is broken.

Having the ability to jump into the fight at any moment % HP left to me is a privilege and not having to be there from start to end waiting 1 entire week or farming pop, earning Gil to buy 1 pop, WR is still easier than other events.

If 150 people joined 1 Nakuul and 0 people got an item then I could agree that the DEVs should adjust drop rate to make it easier but that's not the case and the big picture I see is that as more people get the bigger drops faster, the sooner the event will die making it even more difficult for people to earn any items.

The event is here, the moment is now I believe we should enjoy it while we can. But to say the drop rate is bad doesn't add up when you base experience from 1 point of view and not from the view of everyone who played this event.

It's several people basing it from their points of view, and that of their friends and ls mates. Some people are going 1/1 on Dring, others are 1/120. D.ring's drop rate is good? (I'm pursuing a dring and not at all whining about dring's drop rate. Don't care.)

Getting nothing after 10, 20, 30 fights still doesn't compare to 600/1,000/2,000 fights or spending several months doing endless quests like Mythic. Waiting to only participate only once per day from restricted areas.

Worst-designed loot systems does not excuse poorly designed loot-systems tied to poorly-designed battles encapsuled in a poorly programmed game where people DC if too many people are on the battlefield, and thus progress is lost. If they DC very near the end, reward is lost too. Cost isn't, but reward is.

Yeah, at this point, Imadbro.

Yeah maybe bad luck plays a part but I see 1 fight has the ability to drop X amount of items and rares. And as more people participate, chances of you getting an item becomes harder.

If 18 people participate in 1 boss like Kirin, X amount of drops would be shared across 18 people but the leader would have to decide who gets to lot these items.

In a pug, that kind of stuff sucks, but when I'm part of a linkshell, guild (other games), or static group, I'm willing to work for the good of the group. I didn't last very long in Aery because I thought spending that much time for a chance at a claim, not even loot, was stupid.

Then again 150+ are given the ability to have a chance of receiving a rare than the headache of killing each other over 1 drop.

I just don't see 1 boss drop 20/30/50/100 best rares out of 1 fight. And although seeing it from the point of view of spending several hours on 1 nakuul can give you the reason to feel its not worth your time, 1 kill can only offer so many items.

We just don't have the ability to see who is getting them which maybe would change everyone's point of view if SE gave indication to how many people got one of the best rares per fight.

Daemon

08-13-2013, 06:17 AM

1. Skirmish failed.
2. All bosses don't have bad drop rates.
3. In the beginning, you couldn't even earn half back. Now, for the old ones, they're free if they last long enough and you're famed high enough. I got about 10k from bee both times I've done it since update. I got 30k from the shark lol, so I gained 5k bayld for 4 hours. I'm stoked!

You're kinda wrong. They're superior in power because they're current content drops, but a lot of people can't wrap their heads around the idea that this gear is making us be a higher level. The gear is amazing right now, but it's going to be ~entry level to manage in new delve. SE said that when they outlined all this crap.

It's several people basing it from their points of view, and that of their friends and ls mates. Some people are going 1/1 on Dring, others are 1/120. D.ring's drop rate is good? (I'm pursuing a dring and not at all whining about dring's drop rate. Don't care.)

Worst-designed loot systems does not excuse poorly designed loot-systems tied to poorly-designed battles encapsuled in a poorly programmed game where people DC if too many people are on the battlefield, and thus progress is lost. If they DC very near the end, reward is lost too. Cost isn't, but reward is.

Yeah, at this point, Imadbro.

In a pug, that kind of stuff sucks, but when I'm part of a linkshell, guild (other games), or static group, I'm willing to work for the good of the group. I didn't last very long in Aery because I thought spending that much time for a chance at a claim, not even loot, was stupid.

The way see it, if people are complaining about the drop rate of items and the event itself right now only tells me those people will definitely never go back and help others get what they need after obtaining these items. What's the point? You got what you wanted and now you will have other reasons to do something else than participate in the area that many people are doing right now.

Realistically do you see everyone go back and help others do something you have no interest in?

I understand these items are suppose to help you reach higher level but different levels of progression are not suppose to get easier as you further reach end game. It's suppose to be much more challenging.

The new Delve is not even here yet but many people already breezing though the Delve we have now. Maybe it's not the intention to make the new Delve easy and possibly the effort to be part of it will be designed to require much more effort for even more superior items than Nakuul.

Whenever did gear not give you some sort of power? That's the point in earning them to begin with.

detlef

08-13-2013, 06:27 AM

You know why I wouldn't go back? Aside from drops, it's because the event is not fun, can be a horrible wipe fest, and doesn't reward people properly for contributions.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 06:27 AM

Daemon

08-13-2013, 06:32 AM

The majority of people breezing through current-delve are doing so because they're effectively level 120. The gear is that good. Groups on my server that couldn't kill 3/5 in morimar are regularly killing Tojil now.

Not just because of weapon skill's translation to damage (in the case of monk), but because of the enormous acc/att bonus, people are doing pretty well even before bard songs. With Bur'menkah alone, my pld can do 2.5-3k WS on fodder in delve, and I never get bard buffs. Before Burm, I was lucky to clear 1k. I didn't suddenly become more amazing, the gear's level jacked me up.

Ok but at some point I don't see DEVs continuing to add endless content forever. At some point they will have to stop in order to plan new expansions. I just think people like you are playing faster than what the DEVs can provide in such a short time.

Also I'm not talking about doing Skirmish for items. I'm saying you have the most easy way to earn 75k doing skirmish due to being able to earn 5K in less than 5-10 minutes per entrance. Devs lowered the cost to purchase KI down to 50-75k and yet allows us a further discount through rank.

That's not easy enough?

The expansion is only 5 months old. Things like REM gave everyone a reason to play several months. I'm sure things like WR was meant for the same purpose. New Delve will be too.

At the rate you are going, SE would have to implement an entire game to keep you satisfied after you just proved how fast your progression currently is.

Daemon

08-13-2013, 07:03 AM

You know why I wouldn't go back? Aside from drops, it's because the event is not fun, can be a horrible wipe fest, and doesn't reward people properly for contributions.

Instant gratification is not the reason some of us play FFXI and that's how I see FFXI is becoming.

detlef

08-13-2013, 07:17 AM

Instant gratification is not the reason some of us play FFXI and that's how I see FFXI is becoming.Wait, what part of my post makes you say that.

-I said it isn't fun. If you've participated in a truly bad Hurkan or Yumcax I don't see how you could disagree.
-I said it can be a horrible wipe fest, which is really just restating what I said. The potential duration of the fight can be a real turn-off for hardcores and casuals alike.
-I said that the rewards aren't done properly. By that I mean the XP and Bayld. You're far better off coming on a DD job, capping your bayld and afking in a corner than coming on an important job like COR, BRD, or PLD.

Furthermore, I'd also like to add:

-You can't predict when it will happen so you can't schedule around it.

I don't think you can disagree with any of this, and these are the real reasons people would not want to go back. What does this have to do with instant gratification?

Daemon

08-13-2013, 07:37 AM

Wait, what part of my post makes you say that.

-I said it isn't fun. If you've participated in a truly bad Hurkan or Yumcax I don't see how you could disagree.
-I said it can be a horrible wipe fest, which is really just restating what I said. The potential duration of the fight can be a real turn-off for hardcores and casuals alike.
-I said that the rewards aren't done properly. By that I mean the XP and Bayld. You're far better off coming on a DD job, capping your bayld and afking in a corner than coming on an important job like COR, BRD, or PLD.

Furthermore, I'd also like to add:

-You can't predict when it will happen so you can't schedule around it.

I don't think you can disagree with any of this, and these are the real reasons people would not want to go back. What does this have to do with instant gratification?

But if you read all of my posts I never disagreed to any of those points. I even agreed adding in other rewards would be good, allowing us to see who is ready for WR by implementing a flag option. Adding a way to see who gets one of the best rares.

Horrible wipe fest happens all the time but I'm sure SE did implement ways to achieve winning just many of us haven't figured out the strategy.

Why? I believe someone mentioned SE implemented a previous event that everyone complained took massive hours only for the DEV team to upload a video proving it can be done effortlessly.

Point is, I don't think they would intentionally implement something so hard without a way to achieve a successful fight in a timely manner.

I may not have tried Yumcax to make any comments related to your argument but I did do Hurkan and was told magic damage does not work however I was able to deal over 3.5k with Tier 5 spells. After reading many complaints on the forums I assumed it far more worse than what the fight really was which gave me a false impression at first glance.

I don't know about you but I didn't see anyone wipe out and I actually had fun participating.

As for the duration of the fight, I joined Hurkan party at 100% in less than 3 hours it was dead. Which I'm repeating myself because these things were in my other replies.

I just don't agree making the event easier will make it better. Giving other rewards I never disagreed.

Some people do expect drops to be instant gratification and this is not why I came to FFXI. Otherwise I'd play Diablo III and WoW instead.

If we both agreed on the same points then I took your replies as debates and gave my opinion to why I think we have it better than previous events.

detlef

08-13-2013, 08:07 AM

Daemon

08-13-2013, 08:25 AM

I really don't want instant gratification. I've put in time for a lot of things, and the hard work and effort is far more satisfying when it's a big challenge. With Wildskeeper, I don't need to get what I want the first try. That is nice of course, and that also feels good. I just want some assurance that eventually the effort I've put in will pay off. If every Wildskeeper fight was smooth and easy, I daresay I would be less worried about eventually getting my drops.

Let me just say that if you do enough Hurkan and Yumcax, you'll eventually get to experience the miserable depression of a fight gone horribly wrong, only to end up with herb seeds for your trouble. Maybe then you'll reconsider your position.

Ok now we are both on the same exact page down to the last word. This was my arguement the whole time.

Which is why I came up with this idea and suggested it to the DEV Team.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-System

If you agree, please leave a comment and bump it back to the top. Because exactly what you said now is why I made that topic.

I'm not here to prevent anyone from giving good ideas, but I also don't want bad ideas implemented that can kill off something faster.

I use to play WoE everyday but now its horribly not the same anymore after making it easier, faster, and almost pointless. A quick rush to instantly bring people back to WoE made it worse off than it was and now its harder to earn rewards worth selling because many people don't need stuff from WoE anymore.

I just appreciate that we have something to do now than sit in town thinking what content should I do again and again because nothing else to do? This is why I've stopped playing as much as I did before and decided to login once in awhile.

And it's nice to participate in WR when I login but after taking more time off from the game I've become less frustrated, more appreciating the content available than playing several hours a day soaking up that disappointment each run.

Only to amplify my anger of not progressing.

Fynlar

08-13-2013, 10:19 AM

And plasm is far, far too easy to obtain for it to be a meaningful reward for enduring a wildskeeper.

That's easy for someone that does MBs to say

detlef

08-13-2013, 10:30 AM

That's easy for someone that does MBs to sayIt is. But pickup group should be able to get 10k plasm in an NM run.

I take it back. If Wildskeeper yielded something like 20k plasm that would be awesome. It would relieve congestion in Cirdas_U while giving more casual players a legitimate opportunity to obtain plasm. I'm all for that.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 11:15 AM

It is. But pickup group should be able to get 10k plasm in an NM run.

I take it back. If Wildskeeper yielded something like 20k plasm that would be awesome. It would relieve congestion in Cirdas_U while giving more casual players a legitimate opportunity to obtain plasm. I'm all for that.

+10 to this. Why not? Also, make WK reives repop faster.

I would still ease up on their difficulty, and the zone-hate mechanic, so that more players felt welcome. If 36 people could get 20k in 2 hours, on the job they wanted to play on, and had a small chance at a great piece of loot. That's.. that's really good.

Cirdas is quite often very laggy, even on a dead server like Valefor. I can hit phalanx and sometimes count to 2 before the spell starts casting. This is an issue SE could address by offering a competitive source of plasm outside of Delve.

Daemon

08-13-2013, 11:26 AM

+10 to this. Why not? Also, make WK reives repop faster.

I would still ease up on their difficulty, and the zone-hate mechanic, so that more players felt welcome. If 36 people could get 20k in 2 hours, on the job they wanted to play on, and had a small chance at a great piece of loot. That's.. that's really good.

Cirdas is quite often very laggy, even on a dead server like Valefor. I can hit phalanx and sometimes count to 2 before the spell starts casting. This is an issue SE could address by offering a competitive source of plasm outside of Delve.

Lol you only walk search and get reward, exit. That's really not even hard work at all. It's kinda the same as doing streepsweeper.

30k plasm with a team of 6 people spending 3-5 minutes to earn 5k per person instantly.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 11:47 AM

I don't understand that reply at all. I don't understand what you're referring to. What is "walk, search, and get reward"?

Daemon

08-13-2013, 12:02 PM

I don't understand that reply at all. I don't understand what you're referring to. What is "walk, search, and get reward"?

Meaning its too easy to earn Bayld because of Skirmish that doesn't require effort other than run in search for the little thingy that looks like a VW riff, choose reward and exit. Which takes 2-5 minutes per person.

Adding plasm to WR would only give people a reason not to farm plasm anymore. Which would promote even more gimp players to show up without Delve gear. Which could promote walking in and leeching items without barely effort.

Atleast that's how I would see it. Excuse would be "We'll I couldn't earn Plasm from Delve because people don't farm anymore when it can be easier to earn it in WR while at the same time a chance to earn rare items."

Shortcuts ruin the game.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 12:05 PM

Daemon

08-13-2013, 12:08 PM

I disagree. A lot of players want to be well geared. They just can't because their schedule won't allow it, or they dislike pugs, or their ls sucks (I'm being frank), or maybe they suck. You can only go so far on your own, and some people don't want to leave friends just to succeed.

The skirmish thing... that's just poor design, that's all that is.

It's a poor design that people are taking advantage of now. Which by adding Plasm to WR in the amount of 20k would alter the game to taking attention away from Delve only to place it onto WR instead. At the same time it might help the high end players but take away from the casuals. Which also wouldn't allow casuals to follow the tier design properly.

You just gave the excuse of why people don't show up properly geared and even offer a another reason to skip delve.

Why would people invite delve weapon DDs to farm 9k plasm when they can get 20k plasm from WR instead? Only effort is to earn Bayld and do WR all day.

To me that doesn't make sense.

I'd rather see Delve geared players show up to Nakuuls than Abyssea/Bayld geared players showing up because they couldn't get stuff from Delve anymore.

And those who could not get Delve parties going because its a waste of time would mean several people will have a hard time earning boss KIs to buy Delve gear.

It would be a contradiction to many of the complaints people made. "WR takes too long, bosses take 10-27 hours to kill."

Well gimp players would only make it worse.

It would also become a gold mine to RMT farming plasm for the sake of purchasing Airelixers which would also kill the value in AH.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 12:11 PM

It wouldn't take away from casuals. It would actually assist them. Tojils and such would still happen, as would outside bosses. They'd be less common but they'd still happen.

Daemon

08-13-2013, 01:21 PM

It wouldn't take away from casuals. It would actually assist them. Tojils and such would still happen, as would outside bosses. They'd be less common but they'd still happen.

Your point of view would work if everyone already had Delve Kis and knows Delve already. I would hate to see more Duel Boxers, Mules show up to WR making it even much more laggy than it already is.

Time restrictions in Delve prevents that from happening. Why waste 1 slot in the alliance for a mule when people know earning max amount of Plasm requires team work from everyone.

People also returning to FFXI fresh starting new with SoA would not be able to learn delve, NMs, New party setups if no one groups up for Delve plasm anymore.

Not every part of the game is at the same level. Delve and Wildskeeper Reives are 2 different tier levels. Your idea would force players to skip Delve altogether and promote those who never did Delve or obtain Kis to show up at WR. Because they don't have any Delve gear, that could make it even worse to have players show up gimp.

Skirmish and Delve Tier is not that far off in Tier design but because SE gave us a way to skip Skirmish, this would be the same situation.

When I say Casuals, i mean players who use more than 1 account, or have multiple characters.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 01:49 PM

Daemon

08-13-2013, 01:57 PM

Outside NMs would happen frequently enough, as they currently do. SE could also do more to entice players to go to this.

Pug delve runs would still happen, just not as frequently. So yeah, Mega Boss KIs might be harder to get, but the boss KIs would be easy enough.

It's not perfect but SE has got to do something, rather than ignore us and ignore us...

and always ignore us.

Seriously, it's like the targeting thing in colo reives. Being that its not a population thing (with 3 people, reives can still be impossible to target sometimes), it should have never gone live. They had to know, they just didn't care.

Yeah but outside NMs are harder than inside Delve. And how can people do outside NMs if everyone's attention is directed to Wildskeeper reives?

Tier design is there for a reason. Its takes gear to obtain gear.

To say all SE does is ignore us? Would mean they never had to give us 2 decent updates and adjust things like Colonization reives, Wildskeeper Reives Ki cost, and everything else. >.>

The title of your post says you acknowledge SE made adjustments to WR but is not good enough and needs to be readjusted again. That would be a contradiction to your statement saying SE ignores us.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 01:58 PM

I was being dramatic. Just tired of their silence on everything. We're 30 pages into this, and they don't bother replying. Not even a "we're looking into it", or even a "No, and here's why"

Daemon

08-13-2013, 02:02 PM

Which could give false impressions to facts. DEVS do things for a reason. Yeah they don't tell us why because then every single time they implement something would mean they would have to tell everyone all the time.

Expansion is only 5 months old. You already showed me you are making very good progress. I don't have half of the things you have but after taking time off from FFXI, my stress level and point of view has changed. I do see efforts from the DEV team. I do see people obtaining gear. I see entering WR is easier than previous conditions of events.

Give it some time :)

Daemon

08-13-2013, 02:04 PM

I was being dramatic. Just tired of their silence on everything. We're 30 pages into this, and they don't bother replying. Not even a "we're looking into it", or even a "No, and here's why"

Matsui made this comment not too long ago.

As a result of this there are times when I do not make direct replies to feedback, and as I am not always quoting text it may seem that your feedback is being ignored. Also, there are cases it might feel this way when you don't receive an answer to certain things you were expecting and the subject continues to shift.

The way everyone thinks is different, and while a universally accepted answer is not very realistic, I will continue to do my best to ensure that I connect my responses to our position and conclusions that can be easily understood.

Luscia

08-13-2013, 06:45 PM

I just finished doing a WK and it took at least 5hrs to do. I am sick of not getting much bayld for my efforts on a job that was NEEDED to kill the thing. Also, how can you say that these are good rewards? I agree with everyone who is saying something needs to be done about it; this is the 7th time I have gotten squat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/soraevens/AllThatWorkAndIDidntGetSquat_zps7ae93d3c.png

FrankReynolds

08-13-2013, 06:56 PM

Matsui made this comment not too long ago.

2 things:

1) WKR would still take longer and require more participation than delve to earn that 20k plasm (first do multiple skirmish/reives, then participate enough to cap out exp/bayl in wkr).

2) Matsui's response was pretty much blowing that guy off. He basically said "Just because I don't respond doesn't mean I'm not listening to your complaints. It just means I don't care what you think...".

Imagine how unproductive these forums would be (as if they aren't bad enough) if we just ignored differing opinions instead of actually debating with each other. They might as well take away the thread function and make every post a single thread that cannot be responded to like a static website with un-editable pages.

OmnysValefor

08-13-2013, 11:53 PM

Vasch

08-14-2013, 12:02 AM

Done 12 Yumcax so far (Every fight for him that has started on my server) and have only seen the neck and hands drop. I have also had capped bayld from all of these fights.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:18 AM

2 things:

1) WKR would still take longer and require more participation than delve to earn that 20k plasm (first do multiple skirmish/reives, then participate enough to cap out exp/bayl in wkr).

Not really Frank. I'm not disagreeing that something needs to be done. I just think Plasm should be left alone for Delve and something else be added to WR. If anyone can join at any % of the fight doesn't mean people are going to spend all day just to wait for the boss to die and earn 20k Plasm.

You see shouts in town "Yumcax 23% HP left come join quick!!"

I even got to Hurkan at 30% HP and it died in less than 15 minutes. That only tells me others could do the same. People that should be focusing on earning Delve Gear/Weapons and maxing those ranks should be doing Delve, not show up to WR.

2) Matsui's response was pretty much blowing that guy off. He basically said "Just because I don't respond doesn't mean I'm not listening to your complaints. It just means I don't care what you think...".

Imagine how unproductive these forums would be (as if they aren't bad enough) if we just ignored differing opinions instead of actually debating with each other. They might as well take away the thread function and make every post a single thread that cannot be responded to like a static website with un-editable pages.

I still think he has proven to us in the last 2 updates that he is trying to make things better. I mean even his people were angry, not just us.

Well people like me who debates on ideas also shows other people different points of view, gives the OP a free bump to bring the thread back up and keeps the topic going longer :)

As long as we are being respectful with each other then debates are fun!

OmnysValefor

08-14-2013, 03:22 AM

You see shouts in town "Yumcax 23% HP left come join quick!!"

This illustrates how little you understand about WK reives. Plasm, like bayld, would be based on participation and you can only participate so much in such a short amount of HP. You wouldn't cap, you wouldn't even come close, especially if the battle was brimming with players. You'd be lucky to get there in time at all. Like bayld, you might earn a small amount at the end, but the amount rewarded throughout would be the lion's share.

detlef

08-14-2013, 03:26 AM

You see shouts in town "Yumcax 23% HP left come join quick!!"

I even got to Hurkan at 30% HP and it died in less than 15 minutes. That only tells me others could do the same. People that should be focusing on earning Delve Gear/Weapons and maxing those ranks should be doing Delve, not show up to WR.Both of those situations are highly, ridiculously idealized. If I had been able to join every one of my Wildskeeper wins in-progress while the fight was going smoothly and quickly I probably wouldn't have even posted in this thread.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:35 AM

This illustrates how little you understand about WK reives. Plasm, like bayld, would be based on participation and you can only participate so much in such a short amount of HP. You wouldn't cap, you wouldn't even come close, especially if the battle was brimming with players. You'd be lucky to get there in time at all. Like bayld, you might earn a small amount at the end, but the amount rewarded throughout would be the lion's share.

I know how WoE works. Which yes depending on how much you contribute to the fight. Which is also the same as Colonization Reives. This isn't something new. Which is what you mean by WR.

But then again that's why you see summoner in colonization reives go and spam Garuda heals, Mages in WoE spamming Nukes to get in as much as they can to qualify. But WR is harder and requires much better gear, capped skills than previous content.

The problem is, if no one does Delve anymore because people's interest is directed to WR. Which means all those people who have Delve weapons and STILL need plasm for other gears and weapons for other jobs that their presence to join parties could help those who need delve? What other choice will people coming from Abyssea to Adoulin have other than show up gimp to WR?

You just pointed out the reason why this would separate people further by providing another gap between players.

Like bayld, you might earn a small amount at the end, but the amount rewarded throughout would be the lion's share.

This comment only tells me this benefit is meant to help high end players succeed better. When I'm saying it won't.

We need people prepared for WR to show up and contribute to the fight, not undergeared players show up and make it harder for those who are ready.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 04:10 AM

Both of those situations are highly, ridiculously idealized. If I had been able to join every one of my Wildskeeper wins in-progress while the fight was going smoothly and quickly I probably wouldn't have even posted in this thread.

I wouldn't know how your server is but this morning DJ asked me if I wanted to join Yumcax. I saw the shout was 28% HP and in about 3 minutes dropped to 24%. I told him at that rate ill never get there in time and he agreed.

FrankReynolds

08-14-2013, 04:39 AM

The problem is, if no one does Delve anymore because people's interest is directed to WR. Which means all those people who have Delve weapons and STILL need plasm for other gears and weapons for other jobs that their presence to join parties could help those who need delve? What other choice will people coming from Abyssea to Adoulin have other than show up gimp to WR?

You can do just fine in the first three with abyssea gear. I got full bayld from my first run on ninja. Currently most delve shouts only want people with delve gear or mage jobs. So a guy on a melee job is gonna get delve gear a lot faster this way and since it caps, the "elite" players don't get any better rewards or plasm. Everyone is pretty much even in that respect. They just get a little more afk time after they hit the cap. Which works out fine because people don't usually start flocking to these until they have been whittled down some and once they do, you don't really want a bunch of uber DDS crushing it before everyone else gets a chance to earn their keep.

You just pointed out the reason why this would separate people further by providing another gap between players.

There is no gap. everyone is illegible for the same plasm / bayld / drops. The only people who get screwed are people who show up late. Which is the case now anyways.

This comment only tells me this benefit is meant to help high end players succeed better. When I'm saying it won't.

We need people prepared for WR to show up and contribute to the fight, not undergeared players show up and make it harder for those who are ready.

I don't really see how anyone with a stack of sushi and a reraise item / spell could be under-geared for the first three and since I'm sure that's where most people would go if they were looking to cap bayld / plasm fast and easy, I don't really see the problem.

EDIT: on a related note, anyone who doesn't have delve gear or a desireable support job is SOL on cerberus anyways. There is literally like 1 shout per day for NQ plasm runs. Everything else is Boss runs looking for 3/4 song bard and stun set scholars.

OmnysValefor

08-14-2013, 04:53 AM

The NM probably does need a very geared tank, and a good healer / backup healer / bard / cor ... something.

Beyond that, if people's skills are capped and their gear is decent (I mean, even bayld gear like karieyh, orvail), people can participate and do well, or should be able to if SE would teak the system.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 04:59 AM

You can do just fine in the first three with abyssea gear. I got full bayld from my first run on ninja. Currently most delve shouts only want people with delve gear or mage jobs. So a guy on a melee job is gonna get delve gear a lot faster this way and since it caps, the "elite" players don't get any better rewards or plasm. Everyone is pretty much even in that respect. They just get a little more afk time after they hit the cap. Which works out fine because people don't usually start flocking to these until they have been whittled down some and once they do, you don't really want a bunch of uber DDS crushing it before everyone else gets a chance to earn their keep.

There is no gap. everyone is illegible for the same plasm / bayld / drops. The only people who get screwed are people who show up late. Which is the case now anyways.

I don't really see how anyone with a stack of sushi and a reraise item / spell could be under-geared for the first three and since I'm sure that's where most people would go if they were looking to cap bayld / plasm fast and easy, I don't really see the problem.

EDIT: on a related note, anyone who doesn't have delve gear or a desireable support job is SOL on cerberus anyways. There is literally like 1 shout per day for NQ plasm runs. Everything else is Boss runs looking for 3/4 song bard and stun set scholars.

Plasm is the main focus of Delve. Giving that away to WR would take away from Delve. People also relearn how to work as a team dodging or fighting each boss to earn those Kis. I still think giving 20k plasm in WR will direct everyone to WR and kill Delve. As much as I hate the same Paladin Sach setups, the point is we did learn several things from Delve. Food counts, difference between each NM, splitting up as a team to take on different halls, time management between each boss, mistakes for not listening to each other. If WR can provide all these things, then I could easily agree with you but from speed leveling in Gusgens to Abyssea, I just don't see anyone learning these values by going to WR and skipping Delve.

People may ask others to have a Delve weapon but not everyone that leads a party will require that from everybody. I still see nice leaders only asking for REM and others who don't have these will show up on another job instead be it Mage class.

Delve parties require specific jobs, WR allows much more freedom to allow people to show up any job they want.

Unless you rather see people skip delve all together and just get Nakuul weapons instead and never have the need to touch Delve first, that's how I see the outcome of this idea. Which means everyone who did spend time earning Delve gear made it effortless to those who never entered Delve to get what you are now killing yourself trying to earn.

detlef

08-14-2013, 05:07 AM

As much as I hate the same Paladin Sach setups, the point is we did learn several things from Delve. Food counts, difference between each NM, splitting up as a team to take on different halls, time management between each boss, mistakes for not listening to each other. If WR can provide all these things, then I could easily agree with you but from speed leveling in Gusgens to Abyssea, I just don't see anyone learning these values by going to WR and skipping Delve.Huh. If 3k plasm runs die, nothing of value will be lost. If you're talking about mega boss runs, those will obviously continue to be the best. Even 10k 1-5 runs will be superior to Wildskeeper if time is a factor.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:13 AM

Huh. If 3k plasm runs die, nothing of value will be lost. If you're talking about mega boss runs, those will obviously continue to be the best. Even 10k 1-5 runs will be superior to Wildskeeper if time is a factor.

Which those people needing 10k plasm would never go back to Delve and earn it. 3k is taking the example and making it sound worse than what the event can provide, which only shows a reason to support your idea of why its better. We all know people can earn 9k plasm with a good team >.>.

People who make profit off trading in plasm for Airelixers will no longer make any profit making plasm at some point useless to those who don't have anything else to buy / upgrade.

Time is also a reward for DEVs allowing them to work on updates. Making it easier to earn plasm will also make it faster for everyone to upgrade/purchase all Delve items leaving the DEV Team to come up with more content needed to keep everyone busy.

Look at it from all angles and not just what's convenient. Every idea may have a good side but also a bad side. At least now people needing plasm have a reason to participate in a speperate event. I'd rather have multiple things to do than be limited to doing everything in 1 event at the same time.

I see WR as an event like Six Flags. Not like the playground everyday at Recess. Definitely not like VW.

You may not like my arguments but DEVs are not stupid. I'm sure they are watching every event from all points of view maybe more than how I see it because they know the math behind every example. So I'm not trying to be difficult on purpose.

detlef

08-14-2013, 05:27 AM

Which those people needing 10k plasm would never go back to Delve and earn it. 3k is taking the example and making it sound worse than what the event can provide, which only shows a reason to support your idea of why its better. We all know people can earn 9k plasm with a good team >.>.10k plasm in 45 minutes vs. 20k plasm (hypothetically) in 3 hours. Easy choice. Also, a good team capable of earning 9k farming trash mobs can easily clear 1-5 NMs instead. But also, those good players that can earn that much plasm are much more likely to target the mega boss for 70k plasm than settle for unpredictable trash mob farming.

People who make profit off trading in plasm for Airelixers will no longer make any profit making plasm at some point useless to those who don't have anything else to buy / upgrade.This isn’t a very good argument since both events would hypothetically award plasm.

Look at it from all angles and not just what's convenient. Every idea may have a good side but also a bad side. At least now people needing plasm have a reason to participate in a speperate event. I'd rather have multiple things to do than be limited to doing everything in 1 event at the same time.

I see WR as an event like Six Flags. Not like the playground everyday at Recess. Definitely not like VW.Are you really worried that adding plasm to Wildskeeper would kill Delve? People will still do Delve. Adding plasm to Wildskeeper is just another way for casuals to earn plasm without having to deal with the various hurdles of joining a Delve group.

OmnysValefor

08-14-2013, 05:28 AM

This argument is depressing. Many people here have presented several experiences of just... terrible luck with loot and terrible experiences fighting and while you talk about hypothetical change, you argue against any real change anyone offers, Daemon.

Others have said they did indeed get lucky and got their desired drop right away, and still despise the system.

The system doesn't work favorably. The ONLY thing a person can do to make the fight go better is to come on a good job for it and try to get others to do the same. If people don't want to, there's nothing you can do. If the fight should last 5 times longer than it should have, there's nothing you can do. At least past mass-havoc battles didn't have quite so important personal rewards, and none required such effort for personal investment.

In Besieged and Campaign, the NPC's picked up our slack, but there's none here and there shouldn't be, because the last thing we need is more lag.

SE needs to entice people to want to come to these things and this is a fair way to make that happen. That's all this idea is trying to do.

I think one of the problems is that you seem to be coming at this exansion sideways. In the beginning, there were only Naakual so some people did that.. Not everyone, but some. Naakual/Skirmish was the entry level event of the expansion. After that came Delve. You were meant to have good pre-Adoulin gear/bayld gear/skirmish*/WK to get into delve.

*We all know that skirmish failed to launch, that's not worth talking about.

You were meant to take delve weapons and delve gear to down delve NMs (smoothly, yeah, it had to be doable in the first place, but everyone had to play their A game...). I can be fairly sure that an alliance of pre-adoulin, but otherwise decked out, RME 99s couldn't clear a 1-5+Tojil, even knowing all the mechanics.

While more difficult, new Naakual are not so difficult that a person needs some great level of gear to attend. As matter of fact, the buffs to karieyh, etc, probably make them fine for killing fodder/ranged-ing the boss. A full orvail bard could participate and probably do as well as a gjallyharp-whch is not good, but that's because the system is designed poorly.

The only exception is smn, because smn gear is pretty unique and so they don't get a lot of summoner friendly stats on mage-wide gear, which is a favor toe mages in general.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:35 AM

10k plasm in 45 minutes vs. 20k plasm (hypothetically) in 3 hours. Easy choice. Also, a good team capable of earning 9k farming trash mobs can easily clear 1-5 NMs instead. But also, those good players that can earn that much plasm are much more likely to target the mega boss for 70k plasm than settle for unpredictable trash mob farming.

It doesn't matter if it takes 3 hours to earn 20k plasm. Plasm is the main reward of Delve. You are asking to take the main reward from 1 event and add it on top of the rewards of another. Which still gives reason to skip Delve. Why waste my time doing 3 Delve runs when I can earn that on top of the chance of earning a Rare item at WR?

This isn’t a very good argument since both events would hypothetically award plasm.
Did you misunderstand what I said? More plasm means the more people will buy more Airelixers which means the value will be less than what it is now.

It would be the same as increasing the drop rate of Dyna currency from the average person earning 250 per run into 600 currency per run which would mean the value of this would not be worth as much as it is now.

Are you really worried that adding plasm to Wildskeeper would kill Delve? People will still do Delve. Adding plasm to Wildskeeper is just another way for casuals to earn plasm without having to deal with the various hurdles of joining a Delve group.

Every event has the same hurdles. You've event complained about such hurdles with WR.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:39 AM

OmnysValefor

08-14-2013, 05:50 AM

detlef

08-14-2013, 05:51 AM

Remember when they added king abjurations to Einherjar? Hoo boy, that ruined everything.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:54 AM

"They haven't done it in the past, so they shouldn't do it now" is a poor argument. Especially when they haven't added an event with these issues in the past.

All those things you listed did quite well in their heyday. Most (I gotta admit Bastion was awful) of SE's battle content has. Wildskeeper are not.

That's not my argument >.>. When I run out of Imperial standing, I still join Besiege to earn it. The point is, although that event is several years old, I still go back and participate in that event. Which is why I see that the DEVs implemented it that way. To keep events like Besieged alive in a game with no ending.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:01 AM

Remember when they added king abjurations to Einherjar? Hoo boy, that ruined everything.

Abjuration prizes is not the same as Currency. 1 item vs trillions of numbers that everyone can get has a bigger impact on the server.

Same as how Gil effects the economy. Plasm is a type of Currency. Making it easier to earn things also makes it faster to do things which speeds up the goal of how the Devs want a player to reach.

More plasm means obtaining Delve gear faster, upgrade faster, then what's the point of the event if Everyone gets everything, max upgrades everything fast? Same as asking to increase drop rate of everything in game.

As I said I know how these things work being on a private server of another game. Which is also how the DEV TEAM balances out the game based on time factor.

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:05 AM

You know when they added Dynamis currency to the Penguin Ring event? Or when they added it to Campaign battle? Or when they added it to Meebles? I think that killed the game for me.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:07 AM

You know when they added Dynamis currency to the Penguin Ring event? Or when they added it to Campaign battle? Or when they added it to Meebles? I think that killed the game for me.

Like adding beastly shank to Login campaign now brought the value down and those who farmed these items to earn a quick mil have no need to do BCNM anymore? Now have to compete with everyone to sell it for cheap gil?

Change has its bad effects for the price of convenience.

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:15 AM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure cheap beastly shanks ruined the game. Doing KS99 was such a reliable way to make money since it's impossible to get Kindred's Seals anymore.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:17 AM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure cheap beastly shanks ruined the game. Doing KS99 was such a reliable way to make money since it's impossible to get Kindred's Seals anymore.

Kindred seals were not impossible when everyone converted all other seals into Kindred seals to buy Themesis orbs >.>

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:18 AM

And then what happened when people ran out of seals? People don't spend months and months killing mobs that drops KS anymore.

OmnysValefor

08-14-2013, 06:20 AM

Couple of things.

On shanks, as I've gone through at least a hundred the last campaign, and still don't have a dring, this is just moving gil around. A month or so after the campaign (the new one), things should be fine.

Another reason shanks are so cheap is because you can't stack them up. Certainly, a lot of players would dedicate mules just to holding shanks, if they could and needing to.

You're worried what this would do the price of airlixirs.. Buddy, it's gonna happen anyway, whether it be from Tojil or WK reives. The price is already crashing and we'll eventually get to 200k +2s. That's just how things happen.

See, bleeding-edge hard cores will pay 10x the price of an NQ for an HQ. The insignifant difference may never be noticeable in a fight, but when this attitude is applied across all your gear, and across multiple/all people in your linkshell, that's part of how game-first wins and server-first wins happen. At that point, you have access to start selling airlixirs readily (in this case), and you get to recoup some gil. Many LS's also sold wins and recouped gil that way.

Hardcore players (not cutting-edge) have limits on how much they'll spend. They're happy with a Senbaak, and don't desire a +1. Good mid-level players have a smaller limit they'll spend, and they don't care if their performance suffers, they won't go past a certain point.

And it goes on down the line. Even once +2s hit 200k, there will be some people who refuse to buy them. It's all supply and demand, the price will drop as the average audience buying them becomes more and more casual, along with more and more people having access to sell them en-masse.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:22 AM

And then what happened when people ran out of seals? People don't spend months and months killing mobs that drops KS anymore.

I got seals everywhere. From farming dark rings, to exp parties in abbyssea, especially while doing Magian trials. Farming boss Kis from Abby. Playing bosses in Abby. It's really not that hard. Most of my kindred seals were obtained from converting kindred Crests.

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:24 AM

So you think the best use of your seals is to convert them to KS and then do KS99 to sell Beastly Shanks?

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:33 AM

Another reason shanks are so cheap is because you can't stack them up. Certainly, a lot of players would dedicate mules just to holding shanks, if they could and needing to.

Because you can't stack them is not really the reason why they are cheap. That was the reason they were so expensive to begin with because people could only hold/sell one at a time which makes it more time consuming.

They are cheap now because thousands of players can buy them, sell it. So it's not rare anymore and as items become more common, they become less valuable.

You're worried what this would do the price of airlixirs.. Buddy, it's gonna happen anyway, whether it be from Tojil or WK reives. The price is already crashing and we'll eventually get to 200k +2s. That's just how things happen.

Of course price will go down, but as less people need these, less people sell them which brings the price back up once its not available. But that will never happen if people have endless amounts of plasm to keep flooding the AH.

And speeding up the Delve process will only make everyone play the game faster. Unless DEVs adjust the cost of Delve gear and the amount of Airelixers to upgrade ranks. This isn't the same as Auction house where we can fluctuate the prices of items based on supply and demand and how much currency is available to the economy as a whole. In this case the difference is that Rare/EX is a one way path vs someone who pays for an item and decides to resell it later only to rebuy that gear all over again.

I only see people competing to sell Airelixers the same as BLM scrolls like Comet.

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:51 AM

Because you can't stack them is not really the reason why they are cheap. That was the reason they were so expensive to begin with because people could only hold/sell one at a time which makes it more time consuming.Actually the shanks being unstackable and undeliverable is a huge factor. If I log in everyday I would have enough for 4 shanks. If I can only hold one at a time, I have to sell it as quickly as possible so because I have 3 more to move. If I could hold all 4 at a time or store them in my dbox, I would be far less pressed to sell.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:58 AM

Actually the shanks being unstackable and undeliverable is a huge factor. If I log in everyday I would have enough for 4 shanks. If I can only hold one at a time, I have to sell it as quickly as possible so because I have 3 more to move. If I could hold all 4 at a time or store them in my dbox, I would be far less pressed to sell.

True but you are still pressing to sell your shanks vs the rest of the people who have them. This still falls under supply and demand.

Imagine us who had to spend time farming 1 shank only to wait for that to sell before we could hunt another one? That was more time consuming then running back to the NPC and getting another than spend 20-40 minutes killing Cheivnik.

detlef

08-14-2013, 07:00 AM

My earlier point was that surely you could find a better value for your seals than doing KS99.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:03 AM

My earlier point was that surely you could find a better value for your seals than doing KS99.

IMO not really. Shank and Tea are 100% drop vs the chance of not getting anything. Some of us did it for convenience.

OmnysValefor

08-14-2013, 07:05 AM

detlef

08-14-2013, 07:09 AM

Well, anyway this was a pointless diversion. I think the only point made was that when you increase the supply of something, the price goes down.

Please tell me specifically who would be impacted if you could get plasm from Wildskeeper Reives.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:16 AM

A smart player would hold on to them for six months or so. That gives the price plenty of time to bounce back. Current shanks wouldn't be at 200-300k. They'd be at 500, more likely.

Because Defending Ring can fit in two slots, and we don't have a single ring that compares (I've never seen anything but a screenshot of a perfect dark ring. It's probably more practical to try to get a dring, and it's still nearly twice as good). Because of that, Defending ring is a safe buy for a good while, especially with the lackluster selection of DT gear in adoulin.

Yeah but a smart player would hold the last shank after the event is over because they don't stack. Part of the value of Shanks is because you can only hold 1 at a time.

I've actually seen someone with a perfect 3 aug maxed dark ring in town, I've never gotten one yet but this is the reason I still try hunting them. Also the Kindred Crests made it worth spending hours endlessly zerging mobs on Kon.[A].

Daemon

08-14-2013, 09:46 AM

Please tell me specifically who would be impacted if you could get plasm from Wildskeeper Reives.

I'm only repeating myself. You should read my other replies.

Everyone would be impacted on a different level. High end players may enjoy having the ease of playing WR and earning Plasm at the same time, therefore no reason to go back and join plasm groups, help casuals or non casuals earn plasm for their gear and upgrades. That would subtract a good portion of players to do delve because they'd do WR instead.

Casuals, non casuals, players with multiple accounts, different jobs won't be able to find enough people to do delve groups because most people would do WR instead. Therefore those who do need gear and upgrades would have no choice but to join WR. Which means showing up gimp, undergeared to Hurkan, Yumcax will make these events even more laggy, more difficult for everyone who are there to play with proper gear.

Players that don't have any Delve gear or upgrades won't be able to do much to contribute to the fight so most likely will either die, be in the way, MPK other or make the event worse off than it is already.

End games, Casuals that have enough Delve gear/upgrades that make Gil selling off Airelixers would compete with more people because as more plasm is available, more people will flood the auction house with more Airelixers making it less valuable.

Once the majority of people have all delve gear/upgrades. Who needs plasm? Unless SE adds more ways to spend it.

Taking the main reward of 1 event and adding it in comparison to another event is enough reason to direct everyones interest to the event that can provide 2 rewards than 1 and since plasm is the main reward other than boss and Kis, everyone will lose interest in Delve.

The only real benefit I see from adding 20k plasm to WR is to help end game players and those who already have Kis and delve gear only earn their items faster.

Kind of like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer concept.

At least that's how I'd see it.

detlef

08-14-2013, 11:41 AM

I just wanted to get everything in front of me so I could respond easily.

Everyone would be impacted on a different level. High end players may enjoy having the ease of playing WR and earning Plasm at the same time, therefore no reason to go back and join plasm groups, help casuals or non casuals earn plasm for their gear and upgrades. That would subtract a good portion of players to do delve because they'd do WR instead.

Casuals, non casuals, players with multiple accounts, different jobs won't be able to find enough people to do delve groups because most people would do WR instead. Therefore those who do need gear and upgrades would have no choice but to join WR. Which means showing up gimp, undergeared to Hurkan, Yumcax will make these events even more laggy, more difficult for everyone who are there to play with proper gear.Also, what you’re saying is that people would do Wildskeeper instead of Delve. 20k plasm was an example. I don’t actually think SE would give us that much plasm. But think about a good endgame player. Unless you were after Wildskeeper drops specifically, you would never do that for the plasm. Delve is easy enough that you could make more plasm per hour with a shorter time commitment by doing NMs within the fracture.

You’re saying casuals would have a hard time finding delve groups for plasm. However, this situation would be preferable to the existing, because casuals either have the option of 3-5k plasm per hour or nothing. At least this would allow them to build up some plasm.

Aside from that, it’s not a choice to do either Delve or Wildskeeper. You do Wildskeeper if there’s a shout you want to join, and Delve at any other time.

Players that don't have any Delve gear or upgrades won't be able to do much to contribute to the fight so most likely will either die, be in the way, MPK other or make the event worse off than it is already.You have it backwards. You realize that Delve is the endgame and Wildskeeper is just a supplement right?

End games, Casuals that have enough Delve gear/upgrades that make Gil selling off Airelixers would compete with more people because as more plasm is available, more people will flood the auction house with more Airelixers making it less valuable.Don’t worry, that’s already happened.

The only real benefit I see from adding 20k plasm to WR is to help end game players and those who already have Kis and delve gear only earn their items faster.It really is only a minor benefit to endgamers. Maybe just enough to make a Wildskeeper run not a complete and utter waste of time. The major benefit is for casual players.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 01:07 PM

Also, what you’re saying is that people would do Wildskeeper instead of Delve. 20k plasm was an example. I don’t actually think SE would give us that much plasm. But think about a good endgame player. Unless you were after Wildskeeper drops specifically, you would never do that for the plasm. Delve is easy enough that you could make more plasm per hour with a shorter time commitment by doing NMs within the fracture.

Then that changes the entire argument. 20k plasm each person Is the reason I don't agree. Your statements are becoming confusing when you said:

Are you really worried that adding plasm to Wildskeeper would kill Delve? People will still do Delve. Adding plasm to Wildskeeper is just another way for casuals to earn plasm without having to deal with the various hurdles of joining a Delve group.

Then again you already stated how others already obtain other ways to earn plasm

But also, those good players that can earn that much plasm are much more likely to target the mega boss for 70k plasm than settle for unpredictable trash mob farming.

Surely there has to be other rewards to implement than plasm to WR. I just don't agree that plasm should be it. 70k plasm is a valuable reward from a Megaboss. Adding it to Wildskeeper reives as a reward will make it less valuable in Delve. What's the point if you have nothing else to buy/upgrade? You are only asking to speed up this process.

You’re saying casuals would have a hard time finding delve groups for plasm. However, this situation would be preferable to the existing, because casuals either have the option of 3-5k plasm per hour or nothing. At least this would allow them to build up some plasm.

If it requires good player to earn 70k plasm targeting a Megaboss, then how much does a casual player earn if they cannot win? And showing up to Hurkan and Yumcax is a reason to play for plasm if they cannot even win Nakuuls is a better option? To me I still think this situation will be made for high end player than casuals. If casuals do not have the proper gear to win a Megaboss, then what's to say they will be properly geared for Nakuul?

Aside from that, it’s not a choice to do either Delve or Wildskeeper. You do Wildskeeper if there’s a shout you want to join, and Delve at any other time.

Given that you have made comments with the rest of the people that it takes so much time to get a party and kill Nakuuls. How does that help casuals earn their gear if time is more spent doing Nakuuls? There is only so many people to do events. I'm sure if people knew they could get plasm while doing WR. We all would never go back to farm plasm again. I know I wouldn't. Why join 18 man alliance when I can earn it WR instead? But my disagreement is not based on what I want easier. It's based on what would happen to everyone else on the server?

You have it backwards. You realize that Delve is the endgame and Wildskeeper is just a supplement right?

Plasm farming is harder than Yumcax? Hurkan? Or any other Nakuul. Maybe mega bosses are end game but certain progressions of Delve doesn't necessarily mean its the very end game. I assumed different parts of the game have different tiers. Different things to do.

If its just a supplement then I think it should be left as a supplement. Making it easier to skip one part of the game is what this idea sounds like. I still join Delve plasm groups. Restricted to 18 players. Team work is how we earn 9k.

As much as I want something made easier and convenient. I'd rather not have more reasons to complete my goals faster only to be left with nothing else to do.

Don’t worry, that’s already happened.
If so does that mean to go ahead and kill it off? So 10k stacks or less since its already dropped to 700k for 12 Airelixers.

It really is only a minor benefit to endgamers. Maybe just enough to make a Wildskeeper run not a complete and utter waste of time. The major benefit is for casual players.

Not everyone thinks its a waste of time. But then again I don't have in my mind disappointment for not getting one of the best rare. I just enojoyed it because all of my friends were there. Some people I haven't seen in awhile too. Got to spend time with DJ doing skirmish and to me that was much more valuable.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 01:36 PM

FrankReynolds

08-14-2013, 01:53 PM

What I want to know is why suggest Plasm as a reward to Wildskeeper Rieves if WR is not Delve? SE already gives us Bayld. Shards all over the land are Delve boss pops but what does Nakuul have anything to do with Delve?

To me sounds like please add Assault points to NNI on top of token rewards.

What I want to know is why bayld and plasm aren't the same thing. Why do we need all these crappy forms of alternate currency? I don't want bit coins, microsoft points, paypal discounts and gift certificates in my game. I have those annoyances in RL already.

The price of airlixers is dropping because the number of people who have them has outweighed the number of people who need them. A clever developer would calculate the correct amount of plasm to inject into the system so that most people still want to use it for gear and a few use it as a secondary market to make gil. Right now, the people who can earn airlixer +2s are doing so far faster than everyone else can earn gear to spend them on.

Right now, there are a few people who have access to a crap load of plasm and nothing to spend it on but airlixers and a crap load of people who have no delve gear to use airlixers on. This causes people who have airlixers to cut prices in an effort to sell them before they totally tank. That needs to be balanced out or airlixers will eventually end up at 5k next to kabobs in bazaars because like kabobs, there will eventually be something better to spend the gil on.

To be honest, I'm not sure why anybody would care if they do. It's not like every airlixer holds a tiny locket with a picture of my dead grandma smiling in a field of poppys or something. Why the sentimental value on such a new disposable item? Just because the people who pride themselves in being able to make mad loot in this game would be inconvenienced by having to find a new way to make mad loot? If you let them tell it, they would look forward to the challenge.

That brings us to shanks et al.

Why is this in the discussion? Are we really comparing an item that you get just for standing in jeuno all day while you're at work to a currency that you have to participate in several annoying events for upwards of 5 hours a piece to get? why? Of course the one that offers you a 1% chance at an item is worth less than airlixer +2s. No one can prove that they have ever won anything because they had a D ring. The damage - from magic evasion on bald gear is probably worth more. Not only that, but the drop rate is so crap that only die hards will even have the patience to care if they have that item. Most people would almost pay you to take the headache of standing in line to pop one.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 01:57 PM

What I want to know is why bayld and plasm aren't the same thing. Why do we need all these crappy forms of alternate currency? I don't want bit coins, microsoft points, paypal discounts and gift certificates in my game. I have those annoyances in RL already.

The price of airlixers is dropping because the number of people who have them has outweighed the number of people who need them. A clever developer would calculate the correct amount of plasm to inject into the system so that most people still want to use it for gear and a few use it as a secondary market to make gil.

Right now, there are a few people who have access to a crap load of plasm and nothing to spend it on but airlixers and a crap load of people who have no delve gear to use airlixers on. This causes people who have airlixers to cut prices in an effort to sell them before they totally tank. That needs to be balanced out or airlixers will eventually end up at 5k next to kabobs in bazaars.

To be honest, I'm not sure why anybody would care if they do. It's not like every airlixer holds a tiny locket with a picture of my dead grandma smiling in a filed or something. Why the sentimental value on such a new disposable item? Just because the people who pride themselves in being able to make mad loot in this game would be inconvenienced by having to find a new way to make mad loot? If you let them tell it, they would look forward to the challenge.

That brings us to shanks et al.

Why is this in the discussion? Are we really comparing an item that you get just for standing in jeuno all day while you're at work to a currency that you have to participate in several annoying events for upwards of 5 hours a piece to get? why? Of course the one that offers you a 1% chance at an item is worth less than airlixer +2s. No one can prove that they have ever won anything because they had a D ring. The damage - from magic evasion on bald gear is probably worth more. Not only that, but the drop rate is so crap that only die hards will even have the patience to care if they have that item. Most people would almost pay you to take the headache of standing in line to pop one.

I asked that question before. Why do we have all these different currencies when Gil was the only currency we had from previous FF games. But then again we never had RMT. I would also assume different areas would be the same as the world. Why USA uses Dollars, JPs uses Yen, EU uses Euro?

Drop rate sucks based on the amount of people are on the server. I don't think it's the drop rate that sucks. It's the competition that makes it worse. Regardless of when the drop happens, it's if you get that drop or not vs the other people. Everyone just hides behind "Luck" as the factor rather than see it as 1 item dropping across X amount of people.

Shanks was an example thrown in about supply and demand, speed rate and time factor which was compared to how more plasm would speed up the game faster.

Also Airelixers would fluxuate in price if Plasm wasn't so easy to earn. In the way that Gil effects the economy. Just we have more ways to spend Gil than plasm.

FrankReynolds

08-14-2013, 02:06 PM

I asked that question before. Why do we have all these different currencies when Gil was the only currency we had from previous FF games. But then again we never had RMT.

Drop rate sucks based on the amount of people are on the server. I don't think it's the drop rate that sucks. It's the competition that makes it worse. Regardless of when the drop happens, it's if you get that drop or not vs the other people. Everyone just hides behind "Luck" as the factor rather than see it as 1 item dropping across X amount of people.

I don't know, I'm not saying the amount of plasm we named was the correct amount. That's up to someone with far more time on their hands to determine.

All I'm saying is that plasm is inaccessible to the vast majority of players who don't have organized shells and or time/ motivation to make / join PUGs. If all the necessary gear is to come from organized events, then the game is dead because evidence and logic tells us that the game is not organized, so the idea that people might be able to easily buy this stuff off bazaars / AHs soon really isn't bad news to anyone but horders.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 02:07 PM

FrankReynolds

08-14-2013, 02:09 PM

Daemon

08-14-2013, 02:18 PM

I don't know, I'm not saying the amount of plasm we named was the correct amount. That's up to someone with far more time on their hands to determine.

All I'm saying is that plasm is inaccessible to the vast majority of players who don't have organized shells and or time/ motivation to make / join PUGs. If all the necessary gear is to come from organized events, then the game is dead because evidence and logic tells us that the game is not organized, so the idea that people might be able to easily buy this stuff off bazaars / AHs soon really isn't bad news to anyone but horders.

Well to me I think Plasm is a Delve reward. Bayld is the overall currency for SoA. Doesn't make any sense to me to take a reward from 1 area and add it on to another. I don't see Wildskeeper Reives related to Delve in any way.

This is why I said surely there has to be other reward ideas than plasm. You say plasm is inaccessible to the vast majority of those who are not in organized linkshells etc.

To me sounds like those people never join Delve events. Which I would wonder then what's the point in having plasm if they cannot join Delve to earn Kis, purchase gear and upgrade their items? Anyone who can earn boss Kis should be able to know how to join a Delve Plasm party by now.

Recent update added extra stats onto Bayld gear. New Skirmish is coming soon with nice interesting equipment. Which I think is more than enough gear to enter a plasm farming party. I mean... It's only plasm farming.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 02:23 PM

Just shut up already. Fix the damn WKs, end of story, they are stupid amounts of work & require stupid amounts of people for some of us to walk away with nothing at the end of the fight, simple as that.

Yes FIX WR without killing off other areas of the game and adding the same rewards you get from other places.

And please don't give us ways to speed up our progress. I'm actually enjoying the game for having things to do. I did not enjoy sitting in town all day playing only 1 event (VoidWatch) as the main focus of the game at 99.

Thank you.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 02:33 PM

Well to me I think Plasm is a Delve reward.To me, I think Cruor is an Abyssea reward.

Bayld is the overall currency for SoA.Conquest Points are the currency for the 3 main nations, Allied notes are the currency for the past, Imperial Standing is the currency for Aht.

Doesn't make any sense to me to take a reward from 1 area and add it on to another.Abyssea currency, Cruor, came from VW, an even located within Abyssea, and so far as I understand in the story, it seems like it does not connect to the Abyssean storyline, though I could be wrong. In either case, 2 very different events with very different goals, rewards, drop systems, and so on, but give the same kind of currency and require the same kind of currency to get things.

I don't see Wildskeeper Reives related to Delve in any way.Normal monsters in Adoulin are capable of dropping items which spawn Delve monsters, using said items rewards Plasm, as such, normal mobs must have some form of relation to Plasm. Reives also can reward this kind of item, related to Plasm, and rewarding Plasm. So why is it so very hard to believe that a large, elemental beast, with a ton of power and the ability to crush adventures with no problem, would have some form of ability to grant Plasm as well?

This is why I said surely there has to be other reward ideas than plasm.The Delve NM Craft items, I say again, for the millionth time.

Recent update added extra stats onto Bayld gear. New Skirmish is coming soon with nice interesting equipment. Which I think is more than enough gear to enter a plasm farming party. I mean... It's only plasm farming.Your missing the point!

Your entire basis for why WKs should continue to suck is off the premise that if you make drops actually obtainable without being rage inducing to the majority of those who try to obtain it, that no one would do it once they have their item, and instead would walk away. No matter how practical Plasm may or may not be, it does not matter, the simple point in the end should be that Plasm is an example, and the overall idea is that you add other viable rewards as incentive, something you can repeatedly give someone over and over again which will continue to actually do something for them. Plasm is one such thing as this, a currency used to buy many items, some which are great pieces of gear, others which are used to augment that gear. It is an example, not a set in stone idea that it must be the only possible thing that could be implemented to solve the very pathetic dilemma that you have put in your mind is obstructing them from creating a balanced, fun, and rewarding event we could all enjoy rather than what WKs are where you have to do the same long enormous battle over and over till you get what you actually want.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 02:38 PM

To me, I think Cruor is an Abyssea reward.

Conquest Points are the currency for the 3 main nations, Allied notes are the currency for the past, Imperial Standing is the currency for Aht.

Abyssea currency, Cruor, came from VW, an even located within Abyssea, and so far as I understand in the story, it seems like it does not connect to the Abyssean storyline, though I could be wrong. In either case, 2 very different events with very different goals, rewards, drop systems, and so on, but give the same kind of currency and require the same kind of currency to get things.

Normal monsters in Adoulin are capable of dropping items which spawn Delve monsters, using said items rewards Plasm, as such, normal mobs must have some form of relation to Plasm. Reives also can reward this kind of item, related to Plasm, and rewarding Plasm. So why is it so very hard to believe that a large, elemental beast, with a ton of power and the ability to crush adventures with no problem, would have some form of ability to grant Plasm as well?

The Delve NM Craft items, I say again, for the millionth time.

Your missing the point!

Your entire basis for why WKs should continue to suck is off the premise that if you make drops actually obtainable without being rage inducing to the majority of those who try to obtain it, that no one would do it once they have their item, and instead would walk away. No matter how practical Plasm may or may not be, it does not matter, the simple point in the end should be that Plasm is an example, and the overall idea is that you add other viable rewards as incentive, something you can repeatedly give someone over and over again which will continue to actually do something for them. Plasm is one such thing as this, a currency used to buy many items, some which are great pieces of gear, others which are used to augment that gear. It is an example, not a set in stone idea that it must be the only possible thing that could be implemented to solve the very pathetic dilemma that you have put in your mind is obstructing them from creating a balanced, fun, and rewarding event we could all enjoy rather than what WKs are where you have to do the same long enormous battle over and over till you get what you actually want.

NO DJ! I am NOT disagreeing with everyone that Wildskeeper reives should have other rewards.

I just don't agree plasm is a good reward. Yes monsters do drop delve related items to pop bosses or use those to give plasm. But they DO NOT give you plasm as a normal reward and shards DO NOT drop every monster.

And plasm is NOT a good example otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing. And I didn't take 20k plasm as an example. I took that as a serious request.

And you are getting on my case for debating my opinion on why I disagree.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 02:39 PM

Yes FIX WR without killing off other areas of the game and adding the same rewards you get from other places.Yes, because why would I make a Plasm farm party by shouting for 18 people and make 10k Plasm a hour when I could go round up 150 people for a Yumcax to get me 25k Plasm in 10 hours!?

I'm actually enjoying the game for having things to do. I did not enjoy sitting in town all day playing only 1 event (VoidWatch) as the main focus of the game at 99.You know why you enjoy the game? Your not on the damn thing, you never get on, as many people have said, you go do 10 Yumcax, get a neck 10 times in a row, and come back here and tell us its how it should be, maybe then your word will carry more weight. Till then, you haven't done the content, you did 1 Hurkan that I know of, 1, and the one we joined was a very fast, very easy Hurkan with a lot of people, it was the second fastest Hurkan I have ever joined out of 7, the longest being 6 hours long, your experience is minor, and pathetic, so to me, your word on this topic means nothing.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 02:47 PM

NO DJ! I am NOT disagreeing with everyone that Wildskeeper reives should have other rewards.I must have missed your post where you went from 'everyone cant get something or no one will do it' to 'we should all get something meaningful' then during my 3day ban I had.

And plasm is NOT a good example otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing. And I didn't take 20k plasm as an example. I took that as a serious request.
I just don't agree plasm is a good reward. Yes monsters do drop delve related items to pop bosses or use those to give plasm. But they DO NOT give you plasm as a normal reward and shards DO NOT drop every monster.Why would it be such a horrible system to make a cap of Bayld at 25k as it is now, then, after capping Bayld, reward Plasm? Those who do more, get Plasm, an extra bonus reward to keep people doing things, rather than capping Bayld then AFKing at the entrance for 4 hours while the battle finishes?

And you are getting on my case for debating my opinion on why I disagree.I am 'getting on your case' because what I believe your opinion to be offends me as much as this entire event does. The very idea that someone should participate in an event of any sort for hours upon hours fighting as hard as they can to help the other 100 people around them take down a large monster only to be rewarded with seeds, a pebble, a Beastmen Necklace, a log or something else of the sort, is absolutely ludicrous. To think any intelligent human being could think that is a good design for a game, something meant for entertainment, is absolutely ridiculous. I am not sure if that's a proper response to your question, take it as you will.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 02:49 PM

Yes, because why would I make a Plasm farm party by shouting for 18 people and make 10k Plasm a hour when I could go round up 150 people for a Yumcax to get me 25k Plasm in 10 hours!?

Is that the full truth or are you overexaggerating? You know very well even I saw Yumcax shout drop 4% HP in less than 3 minutes the other morning. No matter who overexaggerates examples doesn't matter to me but presenting facts to the DEVs who implemented and know the math, requirements and difficulty know very well how they made their conditions.

You know why you enjoy the game? Your not on the damn thing, you never get on, as many people have said, you go do 10 Yumcax, get a neck 10 times in a row, and come back here and tell us its how it should be, maybe then your word will carry more weight. Till then, you haven't done the content, you did 1 Hurkan that I know of, 1, and the one we joined was a very fast, very easy Hurkan with a lot of people, it was the second fastest Hurkan I have ever joined out of 7, the longest being 6 hours long, your experience is minor, and pathetic, so to me, your word on this topic means nothing.

I'm disappointed in you DJ. Regardless if I'm on or not. I think playing since day 1 gives me enough common sense to see the same mechanics of every event to know how WR works. I don't have to play 20 hours a day to have common sense over the same system being implemented in WR.

The difference between you and me? You play this event over and over and each failure gives you rage and more disappointment than me playing once in awhile and not caring about failure..

And your rage and anger is really showing.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:01 PM

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a boss fight is a boss fight. You need proper gear, strategy, people who know what they are doing and the correct conditions to succeed in winning. All I ever see is Yumcax took 27 hours, Hurkaan takes 10 hours yet not once have I ever seen it last that long by watching shouts and reading the % of HP left. Nor have I joined a group and see that to know if those stories are true yet not once have I pointed out and said "You are wrong, that is not true" because I know not every server is the same. And most of the time I do join successful events in the past was in the morning from 5am-9am est where It's JP peak time.

And it should be common sense that not every moment of the day or night is peak hour therefore lack of people will always make events harder to play. Harder to find.

That's why I keep saying I see events like Wildskeeper Reives as I see Six Flags.

And yes I do talk to LS friends that tell me different than the average "OMG it takes forever to do WR."

And in EVERY FINAL FANTASY GAME I EVER PLAYED, if I could not win, I went back and leveled harder, bought better gear and tried again.

Rather than give up and complain.

I could have been harsh with my words but I was being modest.

Be a man, suck it up, stop complaining because you didn't get what you wanted because it sounds pathetic. But I chose to be nice.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 03:08 PM

Is that the full truth or are you overexaggerating?Yeah, I took 10 hours 1 day to do a Yumcax, do all of them take that long? No, but I have never seen a WK Reive that died faster than 3 hours besides...

You know very well even I saw Yumcax shout drop 4% HP in less than 3 minutes the other morning.Yeah, that one, I actually joined that one when I was dead tired. Under the idea I said a minute ago, you have to cap your Bayld to get Plasm, I would have gotten none, you know why? The battle went so fast that even though I was healing a party of people, I got 7k Bayld, out of the 25k cap, so I would have had to get 18k more Bayld before I would have gotten a single bit of Plasm under the stipulation I added.

I'm disappointed in you DJ. Regardless if I'm on or not. I think playing since day 1 gives me enough common sense to see the same mechanics of every event to know how WR works. I don't have to play 20 hours a day to have common sense over the same system being implemented in WR.Being on and participating in an event has every bit to do with giving feedback on it. Just because I did normal Nyzul does not mean I could give feedback on NNI if I had not done it, why, simple, because I had not done it. You have done your fair share of WoE, which I think of as the predecessor to this event, but just because you have experience with one, does not mean you do with the other. As I said, do more WKs, see how shit the rewards are, then come back here & tell us how great it is, how it should be this way, till you experience it, don't try to justify it.

The difference between you and me? You play this event over and over and each failure gives you rage and more disappointment than me playing once in awhile and not caring about failure..Yes, I feel my determination being punished with each attempt, and people like you without much time will be without the items no matter if I get it now, or a year from now, because if its a 1 in 100 chance, Ill get 100 chances in that time while you get 10, another of the holes in your previous argument about the content dying.

And your rage and anger is really showing.So be it then, as I said, the very thinking that seems to be present here offends me, and yes, the offense angers me.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:17 PM

Yeah, I took 10 hours 1 day to do a Yumcax, do all of them take that long? No, but I have never seen a WK Reive that died faster than 3 hours besides...

Yeah, that one, I actually joined that one when I was dead tired. Under the idea I said a minute ago, you have to cap your Bayld to get Plasm, I would have gotten none, you know why? The battle went so fast that even though I was healing a party of people, I got 7k Bayld, out of the 25k cap, so I would have had to get 18k more Bayld before I would have gotten a single bit of Plasm under the stipulation I added.

Being on and participating in an event has every bit to do with giving feedback on it. Just because I did normal Nyzul does not mean I could give feedback on NNI if I had not done it, why, simple, because I had not done it. You have done your fair share of WoE, which I think of as the predecessor to this event, but just because you have experience with one, does not mean you do with the other. As I said, do more WKs, see how shit the rewards are, then come back here & tell us how great it is, how it should be this way, till you experience it, don't try to justify it.

Yes, I feel my determination being punished with each attempt, and people like you without much time will be without the items no matter if I get it now, or a year from now, because if its a 1 in 100 chance, Ill get 100 chances in that time while you get 10, another of the holes in your previous argument about the content dying.

So be it then, as I said, the very thinking that seems to be present here offends me, and yes, the offense angers me.

Ok now let me tell you what I've experienced. Competition sucks. Lucky people get what they wanted. But guess what? Each time we played VW? 18 people constantly changing every run. 1 item drops and out of the 18 people I still think rather than competing over lotting the item, drop rate never changed, its the competition of the 18 people that changes your luck of getting a rare.

From farming items as a thief several hours a day? I noticed its pointless to farm a rare 6 hours straight than get a rare and come back later and try again.

However in the case of WR, if 1 rare item drops 3 times a day. You are competing over that 1 item between 150 people. Because of these reasons I have cared less about drop rate and only keep in mind if I get one, I get one. If not, someone else did and maybe someday ill win the lottery but getting angry over it is not going to change the fact that I had bad luck.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 03:18 PM

Starting with this because I feel its the most important thing...

And in EVERY FINAL FANTASY GAME I EVER PLAYED, if I could not win, I went back and leveled harder, bought better gear and tried again. Rather than give up and complain.Show me another FF game that has 100 other characters you must depend on to win that do not follow your orders and you can not in any way control other than by telling them to do something and hoping with all you are that they listen. Once you do that, I will accept that other FFs matter in this debate, until then, every other FF game is irrelevant as none of them are a MMO, or involve this large scale of event in any way shape or form, and as such, are not relevant.

That said.

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a boss fight is a boss fight. You need proper gear, strategy, people who know what they are doing and the correct conditions to succeed in winning. All I ever see is Yumcax took 27 hours, Hurkaan takes 10 hours yet not once have I ever seen it last that long by watching shouts and reading the % of HP left.How many times have you seen a WK shout without a %? How many times have you randomly just did a /sea yorcia? How many times have you went out and stood inside of the Yumcax WK and waited for people with your party while they searched that whole time? The long times people often say for Yumcax are not all time that your fighting, many people include the numerous attempts and fails to get it to die, and in doing so, it puts up a regen aura, often the cause of failures and long wait times, a regen aura that keeps him at 100%. If you see no % in a shout, this is often why, people do not feel the need to advertise its HP has not moved since people entered because you cant hurt it, who would join?

Nor have I joined a group and see that to know if those stories are true yet not once have I pointed out and said "You are wrong, that is not true" because I know not every server is the same. And most of the time I do join successful events in the past was in the morning from 5am-9am est where It's JP peak time.Yes, another great thing, JP time, the one group you did mention which went very fast, was during such a period. I sleep from about 5~7AM till Noon~2 in the afternoon, I am neither awake, nor willing to put up with a WK during the times when it goes fastest because JP players are rather competent when it comes to killing things, like this.

And yes I do talk to LS friends that tell me different than the average "OMG it takes forever to do WR."Tell them to let me know when they are doing Yumcax so I can come witness these amazing fast fights, I have never seen a Yumcax take less than 3 hours except the one you did mention, and I have seen the average ones I join (I often join them at about Midnight EST) last up into the hours you said are best, which makes me wonder, is it really that they just go so fast then, or that half the party was already built and waiting, wiping over and over, only to get reinforcements at that time and be finally able to actually win the fight?

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 03:25 PM

Ok now let me tell you what I've experienced. Competition sucks. Lucky people get what they wanted. But guess what? Each time we played VW? 18 people constantly changing every run. 1 item drops and out of the 18 people I still think rather than competing over lotting the item, drop rate never changed, its the competition of the 18 people that changes your luck of getting a rare.

From farming items as a thief several hours a day? I noticed its pointless to farm a rare 6 hours straight than get a rare and come back later and try again.

However in the case of WR, if 1 rare item drops 3 times a day. You are competing over that 1 item between 150 people. Because of these reasons I have cared less about drop rate and only keep in mind if I get one, I get one. If not, someone else did and maybe someday ill win the lottery but getting angry over it is not going to change the fact that I had bad luck.For one, you are talking about a certain number of drops being allowed per battle rather than everyone getting 1 for sure, which is not the case, we know that because on day 1 if you participated, you got something, every single person, when there were many more people before than now, I assure you, that's not how drops work. I do not even understand why you posted any of that, or what in the hell you mean.

Secondly, getting angry alone will do nothing, no, voicing my anger to those in control, possibly changes something, you see, the difference between doing nothing but accepting it and yelling about it on the forums is 1 has absolutely no chance of improving it for me, while the other has some slight possibility, you want to talk about playing the lottery, well, you have to play to win, and if I say nothing, I have no chance to see change now do I?

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:29 PM

Well feedback on item drop is the same argument as all other events. I just gave my POV of things that I don't agree like taking plasm from Delve and putting it on WR.

Why? I use to play WoE everyday. Religiously.

Then SE adjusted it to be easier. Guess what? WoE became so packed!!! Some flux you couldn't even get in because the max was 36 people. The ones we did get in we could not even deal enough damage to earn high exp and reach the condition of receiving max drops because they were taking down bosses too fast. Yes WoE requires you to participate a certain amount to qualify max drops.

2 weeks, it was full then it simply died because everyone got flume belt, witful belt and enough items to max upgrade their WoE weapons...

From that day on WoE was never the same. Point of my story??

The battle went so fast that even though I was healing a party of people, I got 7k Bayld, out of the 25k cap, so I would have had to get 18k more Bayld before I would have gotten a single bit of Plasm under the stipulation I added.

That...

And once everyone is well geared. The same will happen to WR. Difference is the adjustments were made to be more casual friendly, low manable. Complaints many casuals complained about.

And it's people like me and my LS who did it for challenge and fun and had no problems suffered this change.

And the casuals that complained about WoE did not play as much as we did. And now they are not even there to play the event now after getting what they wanted.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 03:38 PM

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 03:41 PM

And once everyone is well geared. The same will happen to WR.This is why you add long lasting reward... god, we keep repeating this same shit over and over, you say that its gonna die cause everyone gets everything worth getting, I say add a relevant reward, repeat.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:43 PM

The point of your story is that even had they added Plasm as a reward after you cap Bayld that you would not cap Bayld due to not having enough time? So WKs would become fast paced battles rather than 5~10 hour Marathons of fighting and dying over and over while SMNs & CORs do the majority of the DMG and a PLD or RUN holds the NM while random DDs kill off adds for the hell of it because they want Bayld but do not want to come a mage? I understand how that would be so horrible, by all means, continue.

You are still missing the point. If Yumcax and Hurkan can be done in 3 hours. Possibly will be done in less as more people become well geared.

The point is we know it can be done in less than 5 hours. And I'm assuming there are people who still do it in 10 hours.

The morning you did Yumcax was JP peak hour.

These events were not meant to easy spammable like VW otherwise what the condition to play them wouldn't be so hard and require so many people. I just see it that way.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 03:46 PM

This is why you add long lasting reward... god, we keep repeating this same shit over and over, you say that its gonna die cause everyone gets everything worth getting, I say add a relevant reward, repeat.

Then listen to what I said and stop ignoring me. I didn't argue adding extra rewards was an issue. I just don't agree giving a guaranteed rare drop and adding in plasm is a good idea.

Add something else that doesnt kill other parts of the game or make us speed progress faster and then ill agree. Thats all I said.

I did not sign on to a game that lets you play too fast only to sit in town all day with nothing else to do but stare at afk people parked in town which is why I don't login often anymore so I can actually enjoy the new expansion and new content I paid to play.

Why else do I waste paying subscription fees to begin with? Maybe my 1 opinion makes no difference but I've seen others say "We need more content because there is nothing else to do at endgame."

Well SE gave it to us. What's the issue? Drop rate sucks, bosses are boring. Not worth the effort. Ok I get that. I do. But I also get that we have something to do than sit in town all day doing nothing.

Why can't people just be happy? Too many people with different opinions is why and that's how I see DEVs struggle to do anything in FFXI.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 04:12 PM

These events were not meant to easy spammable like VW otherwise what the condition to play them wouldn't be so hard and require so many people. I just see it that way.
Then listen to what I said and stop ignoring me. I didn't argue adding extra rewards was an issue. I just don't agree giving a guaranteed rare drop and adding in plasm is a good idea.So we should not be guaranteed a rare drop from this hard, non-spammable battles which require so many people. One of my largest problems with everything you have been saying.

Add something else that doesnt kill other parts of the game of make us speed progress faster and then ill agree. Thats all I said.As I said, adding Plasm to WKs does not kill Plasm farming in any way. If in a 3 hour fight you get 25k Plasm by capping out your Bayld & Plasm, that means in the same 3 hours you could have done 3 Plasm runs, rewarding 8~10k a piece, ending up with 24~30k total. The difference is the difficulty, target, and amount of people needed, a WK needs 100+ to do fast, 50+ might be enough to complete the battle if you take half a day and never wipe, or have any kind of issues with the NM & deaths, while a Plasm run takes 18 people, and takes 45 minutes a run with maybe 15~20 minutes to refill lost people. Its not killing other content, requirement has been met.

Why else do I waste paying subscription fees to begin with? Maybe my 1 opinion makes no difference but I've seen others say "We need more content because there is nothing else to do at endgame."I have seen more complaints about the content being boring, repetitive, or unrewarding than I have complaints about there being nothing to do, and often times, the complaints about there being nothing to do are given by people who do nothing it seems. For instance I have people I know who complain about there being nothing to do in the game, while the only thing they really do is Reives, Delve, and Abyssea, while there is a ton more, just no one does it.

Well SE gave it to us. What's the issue? Drop rare sucks, bosses are boring. Not worth the effort. Ok I get that. I do. But I also get that we have something to do than sit in tow all day doing nothing.Yay, I have something to do that is better than sitting in town doing nothing, now I can hopelessly fight the same NM over and over again in battles that take hours upon hours and requires a ton of people just so we can kill it, only for me to get a log in the end.

Why can't people just be happy?Why cant we just have all events be like Delve, where once you kill the target, you can get the reward by slowly building up the currency associated with it instead of having no choice but to get it as a drop. I assure you, I would gladly pay 170k Bayld for my Yumcax Head & Hands, as well as another 170k for my Hurkan Feet, 200k Bayld for my Club, and 100k for my Cape. I have the wins, but guess what, I cant get them.

You ask why cant people just be happy, my question is, why cant we just have fun, enjoyable, rewarding content, that does not feel like every attempt can easily be struck down by the random number generator of the game saying 'sorry, this time you get no drop, sucks to be you' at the end?

Since I last said something about the drops I have gotten. So far, I have the Neck and Great Axe from Yumcax, as well as the Scythe, Axe, Bullet, and Grip from Hurkan. Out of the 12 drops between these two NMs, I originally wanted 7 items, the Head, Hands, Club, Cape, and Great axe from Yumcax, as well as the Head and Feet from Hurkan. 4 days ago I got my Buramenk'ah, which has boosted my RDM's DPS so much so I no longer need my WAR, my WAR's only use was Plasm Farms, something I no longer need since I do them on RDM now. As such, I no longer needed Ixtab, which I finally got night before last, 2 days after obtaining my Buramenk'ah. So continuing with tradition on WKs and me, I still have yet to get a single item I actually needed while it was relevant for me. I now own 6 out of 12 items, none of which I have a use for. Thank you SE, thank you.

detlef

08-14-2013, 04:21 PM

DJ I think you and I can be bros.

Seriously, isn't this discussion starting to become as frustrating as a Wildskeeper Reive?

Daemon

08-14-2013, 04:31 PM

So we should not be guaranteed a rare drop from this hard, non-spammable battles which require so many people. One of my largest problems with everything you have been saying.

Well look at the items that Nakuuls give you? Way better items than Voidwatch. I hated doing endless quests to gain warps, temps, stones, cruor to upgrade atmas, spamming cells just to increase changes of getting nothing.

SAs I said, adding Plasm to WKs does not kill Plasm farming in any way. If in a 3 hour fight you get 25k Plasm by capping out your Bayld & Plasm, that means in the same 3 hours you could have done 3 Plasm runs, rewarding 8~10k a piece, ending up with 24~30k total. The difference is the difficulty, target, and amount of people needed, a WK needs 100+ to do fast, 50+ might be enough to complete the battle if you take half a day and never wipe, or have any kind of issues with the NM & deaths, while a Plasm run takes 18 people, and takes 45 minutes a run with maybe 15~20 minutes to refill lost people. Its not killing other content, requirement has been met.

Plasm is not reives... It's Delve. And I appreciate Delve as a separate event. Why are you not understanding this?

SI have seen more complaints about the content being boring, repetitive, or unrewarding than I have complaints about there being nothing to do, and often times, the complaints about there being nothing to do are given by people who do nothing it seems. For instance I have people I know who complain about there being nothing to do in the game, while the only thing they really do is Reives, Delve, and Abyssea, while there is a ton more, just no one does it.

Well yeah because people choose not to do things they don't want to do. I can't make you go to to a basketball game if your interest is football. I can't drag you to a Greenday concert if you like Jay Z. Point is no one will have the same interest in events as others. But you wouldn't want to take part of a Greenday concert and mix it in with a JayZ concert just because you think it's better that way.

Yay, I have something to do that is better than sitting in town doing nothing, now I can hopelessly fight the same NM over and over again in battles that take hours upon hours and requires a ton of people just so we can kill it, only for me to get a log in the end.

Not everyone plays the same hours as you DJ. Not everyone progress as fast as you and lately now that I've been away from the game a bit. I'm seeing things differently like those who play 18 hours a day will have more rage and disappointment than those who play a few hours a week.

Since I last said something about the drops I have gotten. So far, I have the Neck and Great Axe from Yumcax, as well as the Scythe, Axe, Bullet, and Grip from Hurkan. Out of the 12 drops between these two NMs, I originally wanted 7 items, the Head, Hands, Club, Cape, and Great axe from Yumcax, as well as the Head and Feet from Hurkan. 4 days ago I got my Buramenk'ah, which has boosted my RDM's DPS so much so I no longer need my WAR, my WAR's only use was Plasm Farms, something I no longer need since I do them on RDM now. As such, I no longer needed Ixtab, which I finally got night before last, 2 days after obtaining my Buramenk'ah. So continuing with tradition on WKs and me, I still have yet to get a single item I actually needed while it was relevant for me. I now own 6 out of 12 items, none of which I have a use for. Thank you SE, thank you.

Yeah and i'm sure others don't have any of those drops or even come close to having half of what you have now. I sure as hell don't have 1 single drop yet. But I'm not complaining. Although you already got 6 items now out of 12 only makes me wonder why are you even complaining? I can understand if you got 0 drops but you already got 6. Yeah I agree it might be stuff you didn't want but you did get something you did want so that should be enough reason to be happy.

I wish I had Buramenk'ah >.> Nice to have 1 item make such a huge difference wonders why people think WR is too hard, not good enough. That only tells me items that drop from WR are powerful enough to be the only rewarded needed.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 04:36 PM

DJ I think you and I can be bros.

Seriously, isn't this discussion starting to become as frustrating as a Wildskeeper Reive?Going on for many hours, unrewarding, annoying, fighting a battle which has had many participates yet getting no where. In all honesty, this thread embodies exactly what issues we have with WKRs now that I think of it, good point.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 04:47 PM

Simple.

4 days ago I got my Buramenk'ah, which has boosted my RDM's DPS so much

Is the reason people shouldn't be complaining about WR if 1 item can make such a big difference in power then you should be enjoying the event and work harder because the big reward is what makes it worth it at the end.

So far, I have the Neck and Great Axe from Yumcax, as well as the Scythe, Axe, Bullet, and Grip from Hurkan. I now own 6 out of 12 items.

Is the reason you shouldn't be complaining because many of us spent months doing REM trials, Voidwatch, sky and many other events killing ourselves to get 1 item.

I know I wasted more than 6 months on Qilin, millions of Gil, stressed to death and never til this day got a coruscanti playing more than 14 hours a day spamming 1 boss.

And to follow up on my point.

I got my Buramenk'ah

SoA is only 5 months old.

Going on for many hours, unrewarding, annoying, fighting a battle which has had many participates yet getting no where.

Doesn't tell me this is true if you got all those items.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 05:04 PM

Well look at the items that Nakuuls give you? Way better items than Voidwatch. I hated doing endless quests to gain warps, temps, stones, cruor to upgrade atmas, spamming cells just to increase changes of getting nothing.For their time, VW drops were amazing, now they are trash, and WK items are amazing, in 3 months, Yumcax/Hurkan drops will be trash, and fuckemupNM#2's drops will be amazing, so goes the continuity of the game. The problem is, the items being outdated in such a way should not be so rare that someone like you or I can not obtain them no matter our efforts simply because luck does not favor us, you should know that...

Plasm is not reives... It's Delve. And I appreciate Delve as a separate event. Why are you not understanding this?Again, Cruor came from both VW and Abyssea, different events. Separate events do not always have different currencies. Also in either case, you said it had to not kill off an event, I simply explained how it does not kill off an event, thus, it is in accordance with the single stipulation you mentioned in that post.

Well yeah because people choose not to do things they don't want to do. I can't make you go to to a basketball game if your interest is football. I can't drag you to a Greenday concert if you like Jay Z. Point is no one will have the same interest in events as others. But you wouldn't want to take part of a Greenday concert and mix it in with a JayZ concert just because you think it's better that way.If you take the best part of 2 events and put them into 1, that's a great thing, SE almost never does that though. I did not say make everyone do all of the content, but I did say most people complain about there not being enough content while they do not do most of it. Half the people I know who say they have nothing to do have no idea what half the content in the game is, I have had people say they were bored, I ask if they want to do something like Salvage, and they have no idea what it is because its not the most popular thing right now. People often complain about a lack of content because they simply do not look for it, they just do whatever other people do that's popular and screw the rest. Like I said, cant force them to like content, but you can show those who are ignorant to its existence that its there in the first place.

Not everyone plays the same hours as you DJ. Not everyone progress as fast as you and lately now that I've been away from the game a bit. I'm seeing things differently like those who play 18 hours a day will have more rage and disappointment than those who play a few hours a week.As I said way earlier in this thread, your right, not everyone plays the same hours as me, for instance, my GF, she is does not have enough time to do WKs, we have went to 3 together, every time she is there about a hour, by the time the fight actually starts she is about to goto sleep because she has work, then I end up having to dualbox her for the rest of the fight. How hopeless do you think she feels though? Its not as though SE looks at how much she plays and automatically adjusts the rates for her so she will get her gear sooner than someone like me who plays all the time now is it? No, I can spam it every time I see a shout for Yumcax, she does not have that freedom. Her disappointment is no less, the difference is what we are disappointed about, she is not so much disappointed that she can not obtain anything from it, trust me, shes not to happy about it either, but at the same time, shes disappointed she does not even have the time to participate in the event itself!

Yeah and i'm sure others don't have any of those drops or even come close to having half of what you have now. I sure as hell don't have 1 single drop yet. But I'm not complaining.Again, you have participated how many times? Exactly.

Although you already got 6 items now out of 12 only makes me wonder why are you even complaining?Why? Because I have 6 items, the 6 I don't need, the 6 I don't want, if I drop them, no better chance at what I want, if I keep them, no better chance at what I want. If they fixed the system, I could hold onto them, do more fights, and get what I want, right now, I have no better chance at my Buremte gear from fighting Yumcax than I had my very first fight I ever did, no better chance at all, that's why I am complaining. I want the gear I actually went for, I have no way to influence it, and in my numerous repeats I have never got a single piece of gear I actually needed from the battle.

I can understand if you got 0 drops but you already got 6. Yeah I agree it might be stuff you didn't want but you did get something you did want so that should be enough reason to be happy.So let me get this straight. I should be happy they gave me something I have no use for, lets go through the list real fast, Ill go from the first drop I got till last ok?

The Bullet. My COR is 99 at least, because I was going to use it for VW at one point, but I do not really know the job that well, its skills are gimped still, I can use RDM for all content relevant now, it seems like I don't need it to me.

The Axe. I did up Cemine's BST quite well, I never did DJ's BST because I have limited room, and I knew if I wanted to really gear BST up, a set for my pet, a set for TP, WS, move speed, reward, and so on, I would need a lot of room. In the end, I got the best Axe, but on the wrong character, as such, not really useful to me, since I cant trade it to other accounts under my control, and Cemine isn't on this account.

The Ranged Attack Neck. RDM has Magic, I do not need to use a bow, my RNG is level 67, my aforementioned COR is pathetic, this holds no use for me.

The Scythe. Its a scythe, and its not Apoc.

The Great Axe, this would have been helpful a week ago, or rather, 3 weeks ago, when I was going to Plasm Farms a lot, but now I get all the Plasm I need from Tojil, so its not important to me for that. Also, I can do Plasm Farms on RDM now, so again, I no longer need it, this I got most recently as well.

So, I should be happy I got all of these things I can not put to good use, rather than getting something I can put to good use. At the same time I should be happy there is no way for this to impact my chances of getting what I actually wanted, and can actually use, upon repeat battles. Really man, how does this make sense? How does this not sound completely stupid to you?

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:13 PM

For their time, VW drops were amazing, now they are trash, and WK items are amazing, in 3 months, Yumcax/Hurkan drops will be trash, and fuckemupNM#2's drops will be amazing, so goes the continuity of the game. The problem is, the items being outdated in such a way should not be so rare that someone like you or I can not obtain them no matter our efforts simply because luck does not favor us, you should know that...

Again, Cruor came from both VW and Abyssea, different events. Separate events do not always have different currencies. Also in either case, you said it had to not kill off an event, I simply explained how it does not kill off an event, thus, it is in accordance with the single stipulation you mentioned in that post.

If you take the best part of 2 events and put them into 1, that's a great thing, SE almost never does that though. I did not say make everyone do all of the content, but I did say most people complain about there not being enough content while they do not do most of it. Half the people I know who say they have nothing to do have no idea what half the content in the game is, I have had people say they were bored, I ask if they want to do something like Salvage, and they have no idea what it is because its not the most popular thing right now. People often complain about a lack of content because they simply do not look for it, they just do whatever other people do that's popular and screw the rest. Like I said, cant force them to like content, but you can show those who are ignorant to its existence that its there in the first place.

As I said way earlier in this thread, your right, not everyone plays the same hours as me, for instance, my GF, she is does not have enough time to do WKs, we have went to 3 together, every time she is there about a hour, by the time the fight actually starts she is about to goto sleep because she has work, then I end up having to dualbox her for the rest of the fight. How hopeless do you think she feels though? Its not as though SE looks at how much she plays and automatically adjusts the rates for her so she will get her gear sooner than someone like me who plays all the time now is it? No, I can spam it every time I see a shout for Yumcax, she does not have that freedom. Her disappointment is no less, the difference is what we are disappointed about, she is not so much disappointed that she can not obtain anything from it, trust me, shes not to happy about it either, but at the same time, shes disappointed she does not even have the time to participate in the event itself!

Again, you have participated how many times? Exactly.

Why? Because I have 6 items, the 6 I don't need, the 6 I don't want, if I drop them, no better chance at what I want, if I keep them, no better chance at what I want. If they fixed the system, I could hold onto them, do more fights, and get what I want, right now, I have no better chance at my Buremte gear from fighting Yumcax than I had my very first fight I ever did, no better chance at all, that's why I am complaining. I want the gear I actually went for, I have no way to influence it, and in my numerous repeats I have never got a single piece of gear I actually needed from the battle.

So let me get this straight. I should be happy they gave me something I have no use for, lets go through the list real fast, Ill go from the first drop I got till last ok?

The Bullet. My COR is 99 at least, because I was going to use it for VW at one point, but I do not really know the job that well, its skills are gimped still, I can use RDM for all content relevant now, it seems like I don't need it to me.

The Axe. I did up Cemine's BST quite well, I never did DJ's BST because I have limited room, and I knew if I wanted to really gear BST up, a set for my pet, a set for TP, WS, move speed, reward, and so on, I would need a lot of room. In the end, I got the best Axe, but on the wrong character, as such, not really useful to me, since I cant trade it to other accounts under my control, and Cemine isn't on this account.

The Ranged Attack Neck. RDM has Magic, I do not need to use a bow, my RNG is level 67, my aforementioned COR is pathetic, this holds no use for me.

The Scythe. Its a scythe, and its not Apoc.

The Great Axe, this would have been helpful a week ago, or rather, 3 weeks ago, when I was going to Plasm Farms a lot, but now I get all the Plasm I need from Tojil, so its not important to me for that. Also, I can do Plasm Farms on RDM now, so again, I no longer need it, this I got most recently as well.

So, I should be happy I got all of these things I can not put to good use, rather than getting something I can put to good use. At the same time I should be happy there is no way for this to impact my chances of getting what I actually wanted, and can actually use, upon repeat battles. Really man, how does this make sense? How does this not sound completely stupid to you?

Job level cap is 99. Artificially SE is releasing items to bring level power up past 99.

Unless SE plans to forever add harder content, item levels to reach level 100,000,000+ if I'm alive to see that day in the year 3050 or whatever.

I think you are playing way too fast and treating items as if they are temporary trash to be replaced in the next few months.

SoA is a new expansion. I'm sure SE is NOT going to implement stuff endlessly. At some point they will have to stop and let events last for a certain amount of time before implementing the next big thing. I just don't think there is a point of complaining in an event that's happening now because its going to end and I need to get everything I want before that happens.

If you got your sword, then why are you not enoying it because I'm sure many other are envying you right now.

And having that 1 item should be enough reason for you to continue playing WR to get the rest of the items you want.

I'm sure if I spend 20 hours a day I could have rares by now but I choose not to. I don't want to bore myself quickly for playing the content too fast.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 05:22 PM

Is the reason people shouldn't be complaining about WR if 1 item can make such a big difference in power then you should be enjoying the event and work harder because the big reward is what makes it worth it at the end.Yeah, it makes a big difference, I am a dual wield job, I was forced to offhand an offhand weapon which was significantly weaker than both Bura and Hala due to this fact, which severely gimped my damage. Now that I have Bura, I can main hand it while off handing Hala, thus, making me much stronger. This is because its a duel wield job, and because its a weapon.

Is the reason you shouldn't be complaining because many of us spent months doing REM trials, Voidwatch, sky and many other events killing ourselves to get 1 item.First off, I never did all of that, no, I never spammed Aello, never made an Almace or Excalibur, never had to spam Kirin for my speed legs, Genbu for my Shield & Abj for my Enhancing Head, or do anything like them, except, I did every one of those things.

I know I wasted more than 6 months on Qilin, millions of Gil, stressed to death and never til this day got a coruscanti playing more than 14 hours a day spamming 1 boss.I suffered so you should suffer too, that's all this comes across as...

SoA is only 5 months old.Only 5 months? Oh what a short amount of time, I mean, I would have thought you needed at least 1 full year of work every day to be deserving of a great weapon for your favorite job in a game that's supposed to be a fun and enjoyable experience. I guess I rushed, sorry I messed up the game guys.

Doesn't tell me this is true if you got all those items.Ok, say for instance you join a race with an undisclosed reward for winning. You win the race and at the end I hand you some pot as your only reward, but you don't want to break the law, you don't do drugs and you cant sell it. So for winning the race, you got something you cant use that you also cant give away or sell, was the race rewarding?

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:26 PM

Danita

08-14-2013, 05:32 PM

Why cant we just have all events be like Delve, where once you kill the target, you can get the reward by slowly building up the currency associated with it instead of having no choice but to get it as a drop. I assure you, I would gladly pay 170k Bayld for my Yumcax Head & Hands, as well as another 170k for my Hurkan Feet, 200k Bayld for my Club, and 100k for my Cape. I have the wins, but guess what, I cant get them.

You ask why cant people just be happy, my question is, why cant we just have fun, enjoyable, rewarding content, that does not feel like every attempt can easily be struck down by the random number generator of the game saying 'sorry, this time you get no drop, sucks to be you' at the end?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 05:38 PM

Job level cap is 99. Artificially SE is releasing items to bring level power up past 99.

Unless SE plans to forever add harder content, item levels to reach level 100,000,000+ if I'm alive to see that day in the year 3050 or whatever.Besides the obviously stupid part of this, suffice it to say, that seems to be their intention going ahead as they did say after all that they want to move forward with a tree like progression system which would involve doing 1 thing before the next. The only way to do this, is make the next content hard enough to need previous content to be completed in order to have a chance at victory, as such, if they stop making harder content, this tree stops growing, which does not seem to be their plan.

I think you are playing way too fast and treating items as if they are temporary trash to be replaced in the next few months.I might be, but at the same time, I expect to get something when I do something. VW I barely tolerated and only because there was no assurance in the future I could get something better, for instance I actually needed Heka's on RDM to cap cure potency without changing out my swords, so even if I did not get it as early as I did, I would have continued to spam that NM for a very, very long time. Right now, that has changed, they have made it clear they will implement better gear each time, over and over, so chances are, especially with WKs, that if I do not get my gear right now, there will be better versions later. Look at Ceizak WK vs Ceizak Delve Boss, the gear uses the same look, most of the stats are the same with only 1 or 2 differences, but overall the Delve gear is better. Why would one believe that Yorcia & Marjami will not be the same way, if it is, why bother going through the pain and annoyance of trying to get the gear from the WKs now when in a few months I can do Yumcax Delve Edition with a group of friends and get my drop for sure if it drops, or at least buy it with Plasm later when I have it? You think I am playing to fast, well like I said, I might be, but at the same time, I am thinking ahead, and thinking of how much I might be wasting my time doing things for gear now if its just going to be beaten later. After all, why put myself through so much trouble for a piece of gear now that wont be that great next month?

If you got your sword, then why are you not enoying it because I'm sure many other are envying you right now.I am enjoying it, but that does not mean just because I am happy I have a single thing I wanted that I no longer strive to improve, that I am in any less need of this gear. What you say implies that I simply got it and at the same time devalued the accomplishment by wanting something else instantly, no, I wanted both since they came out, I finally got one, I am happy I have the one I have, but it does not mean all of a sudden WKs are gonna be funner, more rewarding, or that I will get my gear easier.

And having that 1 item should be enough reason for you to continue playing WR to get the rest of the items you want.Please explain the connection my Buramenk'ah has to Yumcax and Hurkan that should encourage my continued efforts to obtain their gear. I am all ears.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:42 PM

Yeah, it makes a big difference, I am a dual wield job, I was forced to offhand an offhand weapon which was significantly weaker than both Bura and Hala due to this fact, which severely gimped my damage. Now that I have Bura, I can main hand it while off handing Hala, thus, making me much stronger. This is because its a duel wield job, and because its a weapon.

So be happy then. What's the problem? You earned it. Something many others haven't yet.

First off, I never did all of that, no, I never spammed Aello, never made an Almace or Excalibur, never had to spam Kirin for my speed legs, Genbu for my Shield & Abj for my Enhancing Head, or do anything like them, except, I did every one of those things.

Well I know you did earn all of that but seriously DJ and you have extreme power that many don't have so what's the problem? Many people in game don't come close to the power and impressive skills you got.

I suffered so you should suffer too, that's all this comes across as...

Don't twist the meaning of my words. The meaning of that example was. We have it way easier now than VW without endless quests, storylines, limitations compared to WR.

Only 5 months? Oh what a short amount of time, I mean, I would have thought you needed at least 1 full year of work every day to be deserving of a great weapon for your favorite job in a game that's supposed to be a fun and enjoyable experience. I guess I rushed, sorry I messed up the game guys.

Well DJ yeah 5 months. Given that it took time to gain other gear, explore the new expansion, figure out what to do and how to play the event. That's much more faster than previous content.

Ok, say for instance you join a race with an undisclosed reward for winning. You win the race and at the end I hand you some pot as your only reward, but you don't want to break the law, you don't do drugs and you cant sell it. So for winning the race, you got something you cant use that you also cant give away or sell, was the race rewarding?

Same thing happened when I got all the ABJ I didn't need from Morta. Doesn't mean I put that on my quit list. I still do Morta when I see a shout. At least I have reasons to continue playing the event with others. I'd hate to be the guy in town sitting all day doing nothing again.

Doesn't matter how much power you have. If you finish getting everything, you come to the same conclusion. Do I repeat this event again? Or do I sit and do nothing?

detlef

08-14-2013, 05:44 PM

Wait a minute, what does Buramenk'ah have to do with Wildskeeper in any way?

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:51 PM

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

Oh but people don't read my previous responses and ignore details of what I already said only to repeat what I already suggested and disregard what I already agreed to.

Had you read my posts, my ideas then you would see.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-System

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 05:53 PM

Be grateful. Not everyone is at the same point of the game as you DJ. I could be on the game to earn the best if I wanted to. But I'd rather login once in awhile to help others in game get things done than focus on wanting the best.

This is why there is a big difference between people in the community.What... in the world... does this have to do with anything I have posted...?

Nothing, nothing at all, really, your arguing time management again, yay... I guess Ill go off topic and reply with some random stuff of my own.

I spend my time helping my GF get stuff on her character because she works all but 2 days a week and gets to get on maybe 2~3 hours a day right now, so unlike a thoughtless douche, I went out and made her a PDT Club from when I woke till I slept 3 days ago, day before yesterday I did all of her GEO-spells running around all of Vana, before the Yumcax I did that night and finally going to sleep, literally those 2 entire days were devoted to doing things she needed, except the Yumcax, which we both needed. Its not as though I have not helped people either.

But again, time management, not really the issue here. The only way you could drag time management into this as a true part of the issue is with the same flawed arguments that pop up on occasion. Not everyone can be on at all times, and if its cleared to fast no one else will do it. Again, the flaws of which are, not everyone can be on at all times, which is part of why this kind of event in a game with this kind of population is horrible, and if it takes on average 100 kills to get all of the drops I want from a NM, then you have free time to do 20 while I do my 100, you will be done with 20 by the time I am done with 100, your average will remain that you need 80 more kills to obtain your item, I have mine. If its 10 kills to get my item, and you come in with your free time and can kill it twice, you will kill it twice, Ill have all I need, again, 20%, while I'm finished.

The only way that it would work in such a way that it would be balanced between people with different amounts of time is if magically SE could look at your schedule and determine a personal drop rate for each person based on the free time they have to play, then accordingly make it so that the drop rates are effected by that alone. So for someone with almost no time, they would almost always get what they want, but for someone like me who has all the time in the world right now to play this, I would take a million kills to get something. If that were the case, it would be fine, but its not, and since its not, its a flawed argument any time you bring up time management, because its simply not something you can take into account when balancing rewards for an event, it never works, the event will leave out the same amount of people in the end most likely, and the average person is still screwed.

I mean, you could get lucky, you could come in and get your last drop as I get my last drop, you only did 3 fights, I did 27, but the average person who did 3 fights, got nothing still. So in the end my point is, average person, screwed, lucky people, lucky, in your flawed argument which is just that, flawed, for all of the reasons I just attempted to explain.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 05:59 PM

What does that have to do with what I already said before? I Agreed WR could use other rewards to make it worth doing. No where did I disagree.

Let me repeat myself.

I agree WR needs other reward than pebbles, ores and other junk.

One more time...

I agree WR is boring to waste endless hours for trash drops...

I just don't agree adding Plasm is the good reward when we already have Bayld as a reward.

Really read my replies and stop skimming through to the details you want to throw in my face and debate with me on.

Even I made a suggestion for SE to make these events better.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-System

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:00 PM

Oh but people don't read my previous responses and ignore details of what I already said only to repeat what I already suggested and disregard what I already agreed to.

Had you read my posts, my ideas then you would see.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-SystemNothing against your idea but the by the time SE implemented something this complex, the gear would be obsolete.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:01 PM

Nothing against your idea but the by the time SE implemented something this complex, the gear would be obsolete.

Then by the time SE implements any other rewards these items will be obsolete.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:08 PM

You ask why cant people just be happy, my question is, why cant we just have fun, enjoyable, rewarding content, that does not feel like every attempt can easily be struck down by the random number generator of the game saying 'sorry, this time you get no drop, sucks to be you' at the end?

Is the reason I suggested this idea to begin with.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-System

Which I think was a reasonable suggestion that doesn't kill other event areas, doesn't allow anyone to speed past content too fast and rewards those who do put in the effort.

Most importantly. Encourages people to play these events more.

That should tell you I care too, than you guys making it sound like I don't care about anyone enjoying content rewardingly.

Originally Posted by Camate

as long as you don’t have severely bad luck.

I believe my idea would solve that statement.

That way no one will feel defeated by luck. At least if you failed by luck, you still can earn it through effort.

Was my last quote from that topic.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 06:25 PM

So be happy then. What's the problem? You earned it. Something many others haven't yet.What the hell does this have to do with what you originally said?! You said...

if 1 item can make such a big difference in power then you should be enjoying the event and work harder because the big reward is what makes it worth it at the end.But guess what...

I am a dual wield job, I was forced to offhand an offhand weapon which was significantly weaker than both Bura and Hala due to this fact, which severely gimped my damage.Which is the exact reason why it made such a large impact. If I were looking at my WAR, Bloodbath versus Ixtab, my damage would go up, yes, but not by more than maybe 5% or so, where as RDM went up by well over 20% of DMG simply because I got a new sword that didn't suck, which allowed me to move my other sword to my offhand, and increase my DMG a large amount. I have no idea what me having something others do not, or the fact I earned it, has to do with the large increase in my DMG which was what your original comment was about that I replied to.

Well I know you did earn all of that but seriously DJ and you have extreme power that many don't have so what's the problem? Many people in game don't come close to the power and impressive skills you got.Perhaps I am just dense and its going right over my head or something, but really, what does this have to do with you originally saying something about all the hard work people put in all of these other events?

Don't twist the meaning of my words. The meaning of that example was. We have it way easier now than VW without endless quests, storylines, limitations compared to WR.I did not mean to twist, it is how it comes off. You bring up you killed Qilin a bunch, got nothing, and that justifies how we are killing WKs a lot, and getting nothing, that is exactly how what you are saying sounds, please, explain how I am wrong in that respect. We have it easier than VW in some ways, and its much harder in others, all of which at some point have been explained to you over and over again in this very thread, the thread which has basically become a 30+ page argument with you about this topic. But let me just cover the differences real fast that make this harder.

1. VW took 18 People, this takes more than a hundred to do effectively.
2. VW had warps very close to the NMs, warps which required no server wide work or anything close, while WKs require you to have waypoints that must be built and require upkeep from the players to function, or else they randomly explode for no reason.
3. VW had procs, as well as temps, and atma, things which not only made the fight easier, but made the fight survivable for DDs, on top of freezing the NM making it do nothing for multiple seconds while you beat the hell out of it.
4. VW had weak adds, unlike a WK Reive, a PLD could literally supertank not only the NM, but the adds as well all in a VW fight if needed, in WKs, the NM alone requires a PLD, and the adds are not very weak, though I am not exactly sure if a decent PLD could hold them all, I doubt it.
5. VW had no repop time at all, not even a minute, or 10 minutes, nothing, WKs have a 3 hour repop.
6. VW had the entry fee of a single stone per fight, a stone which you got 1 of, for free, every few hours, every day, no matter if you were on or not. WKs require thousands upon thousands of Bayld, able to be easily gotten, but it takes time which you must work at it for, you have to specifically be trying to get Bayld, to get Bayld really, while your stones for VW replenish no matter what you do, or if you do anything at all.
7. VW gave you Cruor, not only did it give you a type of currency to buy something, but it was from an entire different event as well! WKs only give you Experience Points, which by the way, lol experience points, I get a max of 25k Experience for a Yumcax, but get 20k Experience from a 3 minute Qilin, the balance is strong with this one. But continuing, the only currency reward you get from WKs, is the same exact currency you used to buy the KI to fight the WK!
8. I'm tired of this list, probably more I could add, but really, I think my point is proven, isn't it?

Well DJ yeah 5 months. Given that it took time to gain other gear, explore the new expansion, figure out what to do and how to play the event. That's much more faster than previous content.Yes well gear and weapons are being outdated much faster than previous content as well now aren't they? So yeah, 5 months, not seeming to bad to me anymore.

Same thing happened when I got all the ABJ I didn't need from Morta. Doesn't mean I put that on my quit list. I still do Morta when I see a shout. At least I have reasons to continue playing the event with others. I'd hate to be the guy in town sitting all day doing nothing again.Morta drops what again? Oh yeah, it drops good ol Dross & Cinder, money! Large money! Those are like 2M a piece for Cinder, 1M a piece for Dross, or something like that right? So yeah, you have a reason to keep going anyways, besides cruor.

Doesn't matter how much power you have. If you finish getting everything, you come to the same conclusion. Do I repeat this event again? Or do I sit and do nothing?Has nothing to do with power, I would not do a non-rewarding event any more than I would do a rewarding event I already have everything from. In the end, I have to find some sort of reward in it, to keep going to do it. Do I join VW anymore? No, the amount of boredom I find it in outweighs the fun I have and the rewards I potentially gain from most NMs, the few who I can get something from, it depends at times, sometimes I go, others I don't.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:32 PM

You are still deviating from the points I made. I agree WR needs something better. I just don't agree plasm is it. Did you read that or did that go over your head? SE already gives us Bayld. Why do they need to add plasm?

Yeah riftcinder, quest item for Emp.

Where did I ever disagree WR should never implement quest items or money drops?

I just don't agree plasm is a good reward. That's all.

Why can't you suggest something else other than plasm is my question?

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 06:34 PM

Really read my replies and stop skimming through to the details you want to throw in my face and debate with me on.I read every single post you post when I am actually talking to you, and a few before I ever start to jump in on a conversation(admittedly not always all of them, no one in their right mind would read all 36 pages just so they can jump in on this...). But, while you say you agree, WKs are boring to wasted endless hours for trash drops, you also say, don't give us a 100% chance at something valuable we don't have, which, in effect, is doing the opposite, unless you come up with something of equal value which is a reward enough to entice people to come, and then not be angry or disappointed when they get it instead. The thing about having it as a reward for after you get your drops to keep coming back, is that it never 'cockblocks' the items you do want, the thing about having it as an item that drops while not allowing 100% chances at something that is a R/EX drop from the NM, does have that chance, and can still cause great annoyance.

Now, while you accuse me of not reading your replies, and telling me to stop skimming, notice, I reply to almost every bit of your posts segment by segment in order to address each part clearly, as to avoid confusion. I admit, I cut out some parts, mostly because they seem like they would get a repeat response, but I do actually cut some of it out. I assure you I read it all, and reply to it all in some form, even if not directly. What I must say you do though, is you forget your original response to something I am replying to, and then reply with something that makes no sense when put together with your original comment of which I replied to. I am not sure if you mean to do it, but it does seem to happen, and I pointed it out before.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:39 PM

I read every single post you post when I am actually talking to you, and a few before I ever start to jump in on a conversation(admittedly not always all of them, no one in their right mind would read all 36 pages just so they can jump in on this...). But, while you say you agree, WKs are boring to wasted endless hours for trash drops, you also say, don't give us a 100% chance at something valuable we don't have, which, in effect, is doing the opposite, unless you come up with something of equal value which is a reward enough to entice people to come, and then not be angry or disappointed when they get it instead. The thing about having it as a reward for after you get your drops to keep coming back, is that it never 'cockblocks' the items you do want, the thing about having it as an item that drops while not allowing 100% chances at something that is a R/EX drop from the NM, does have that chance, and can still cause great annoyance.

Now, while you accuse me of not reading your replies, and telling me to stop skimming, notice, I reply to almost every bit of your posts segment by segment in order to address each part clearly, as to avoid confusion. I admit, I cut out some parts, mostly because they seem like they would get a repeat response, but I do actually cut some of it out. I assure you I read it all, and reply to it all in some form, even if not directly. What I must say you do though, is you forget your original response to something I am replying to, and then reply with something that makes no sense when put together with your original comment of which I replied to. I am not sure if you mean to do it, but it does seem to happen, and I pointed it out before.

Did you even read my idea?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36543-NEW-RARE-Point-System#post464500

Did I not agree that WR needs something better for rewards? Because the only thing I disagreed was Plasm and Guarantees rare drop. Now earning through a point system or any other example related was my suggestion.

Not things that will kill a certain area of the game, speed up progression faster such as Delve etc.

If that was the case then why Increasing Plasm when SE could lower the cost of Delve gear and lower the amount required to upgrade ranks? That would be much more simple than earning endless amounts of plasm.

Only to someday let it sit for nothing like how my Kufrieds corundum and Voidwatch stones are piling up.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 06:48 PM

Not things that will kill a certain area of the game, speed up progression faster such as Delve etc.For the love of... I am tired of explaining how this would not kill anything...

detlef

08-14-2013, 06:52 PM

Why can't you suggest something else other than plasm is my question?Now you're the one who didn't read everything. Here are a couple of other ideas that have been brought up and a couple I’ve added:

1. Make Order Up repeatable.
2. Make the drop rate of all Naakuals equal. If there are 6 drops, each should have a 1/6 chance of dropping.
3. Two drops slots: one for armor/weapons and one for accessories and JSE capes. This would effectively give you a 25% chance of getting the weapon/armor you want.
4. Have the game reroll once if an item you already have loads (We have COR relic +2 feet which shows that the game can do this). If you still get the grip, oh well.
5. Add some sort of additional drop that provides enough incentive to join even if someone is not specifically after the Naakual's drops. Plasm has been suggested as an example.
6. Make the fight more enjoyable so players do not avoid the event out of hatred. There are tons of good suggestions in the Battle Content forum but here are a few:
a. Ease up on the alliance hate so that repeated wipes aren't commonplace.
b. Adjust mob roaming within the battlefield area to provide for safer recovery.
c. Make colonization rate affect Naakuals in a way other than damage taken.
d. Make it easier for non-melee and non-WHM to earn bayld during the fight to encourage players to bring support jobs.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:54 PM

For the love of... I am tired of explaining how this would not kill anything...

Well DJ what happens when people buy all Delve gear? Max upgrade everything? Answer that for me.

And as for plasm as a reward?

You already gain Bayld as a reward in WR. Why add Bayld AND plasm? I just don't see that as reasonable. I don't even see that happening. That's why I don't agree.

Bayld is suppose to be the reason to enjoy the event is how i see why the Devs added it to begin with. Plasm was added to Megaboss in Delve as a huge reward to make it worth the effort.

Now maybe adjusting the amount of Bayld for defeating a Nakuul to be higher would be a reasonable suggestion from my point of view but taking a reward from another event adding it to WR is not my idea of a good solution.

Adding synthesis materials or other items i agree would be good too. I never disagreed on that.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 06:56 PM

Now you're the one who didn't read everything. Here are a couple of other ideas that have been brought up and a couple I’ve added:

1. Make Order Up repeatable.
2. Make the drop rate of all Naakuals equal. If there are 6 drops, each should have a 1/6 chance of dropping.
3. Two drops slots: one for armor/weapons and one for accessories and JSE capes. This would effectively give you a 25% chance of getting the weapon/armor you want.
4. Have the game reroll once if an item you already have loads (We have COR relic +2 feet which shows that the game can do this). If you still get the grip, oh well.
5. Add some sort of additional drop that provides enough incentive to join even if someone is not specifically after the Naakual's drops. Plasm has been suggested as an example.
6. Make the fight more enjoyable so players do not avoid the event out of hatred. There are tons of good suggestions in the Battle Content forum but here are a few:
a. Ease up on the alliance hate so that repeated wipes aren't commonplace.
b. Adjust mob roaming within the battlefield area to provide for safer recovery.
c. Make colonization rate affect Naakuals in a way other than damage taken.
d. Make it easier for non-melee and non-WHM to earn bayld during the fight to encourage players to bring support jobs.

No I just think we are taking this conversation to an endless argument all because I disagreed with 2 ideas. Plasm and guaranteed drop.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:10 PM

Why do we need all these crappy forms of alternate currency?

Forgot to mention. It's better to start everyone at 0, on a new currency out of fairness. Otherwise if it was 1 currency, those who have more will surpass everyone who has less. Which will be another reason to bring up elitist arguments. Makes it easier for the DEVs to calculate estimates too.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:12 PM

You are still deviating from the points I made. I agree WR needs something better. I just don't agree plasm is it. Did you read that or did that go over your head? SE already gives us Bayld. Why do they need to add plasm?Simple answer, its more of a refund than a reward in all honesty since you pay Bayld to enter, and leave with less Bayld than you paid, as a reward. Its not as though you go in by paying 25k or 50k but then walk out having earned 80k while inside of the WK Reive.

Longer Answer...

How much is Bayld worth?
If you transfer it into Gil...
As I type this, the Cirdas Head is bouncing between 10 and 60k, seeing as they are fairly common, I assume the people paying 60k are simply stupid, and the real pricing right now is around 10k. 10k for legs, and about 5k for a torso. This is the cost of a Skirmish set. Assuming I bring 6 people, I pay 25k, I go out, I make 30k Bayld, that puts the worth of Bayld at roughly .83~ Gil per Bayld. So, if you go out and do a WK Reive, you are being rewarded with roughly 20,833~ Gil worth of Bayld, so long as you cap your Evaluations.

Now if you look at Plasm, it gets a little more complex.
Airlixir NQs are 12k, they are worth 500 Plasm at a NPC. Total Gil worth, 24 Gil/Plasm.
Airlixir NQs x12 are 140k, they are worth 6000 Plasm total at a NPC. Total Gil worth, 23.3~/Plasm
Air+1 are 70k, they are worth 2500 Plasm at a NPC. Total Gil worth, 28 Gil/Plasm
Air+1 x12 are 590k, they are worth 30000 Plasm total at a NPC. Total Gil worth, 19.6~/Plasm
Air +2 are 1.6M, they are worth 100000 Plasm at a NPC. Total Gil worth, 16/Plasm

If you take the best money maker, Air+1s, a 25k Plasm reward from a WK Reive would hold 700k value as it stands right now on Phoenix. While 25k Bayld holds that amazing 20,833~ Gil worth on Phoenix if you remember right. Even if you go by the worst rate, +2s, you would have to do a grand total of 4 WKs to get that much Plasm, in that time your Bayld will be worth an amazing 83,333~ Gil, but your Plasm would be worth 1.6 Million Gil.

Also, keep in mind, you can spend Plasm on items to sell, in this case, all of the Airlixir I mentioned, however, you can not spend Bayld on Skirmish parts, or anything else to sell for Gil really, as such, you can buy Bayld in a way, but you can not sell it, while you can sell your Plasm in a way, this, making it more rewarding. Perhaps this is why Plasm seems more appealing as a reward. I know its a little of a long way to say it, and there are more reasons too, like how not everyone can get into Plasm farms and all that, but really, this is a contributing factor as well I think.

Yeah riftcinder, quest item for Emp.I know what Riftcinder is, that is why I know it is expensive, and why it is expensive in the first place.

Where did I ever disagree WR should never implement quest items or money drops?

I just don't agree plasm is a good reward. That's all.

Why can't you suggest something else other than plasm is my question?How many times do I have to say Delve Boss Craft items before you read that I am typing it? I have said it at least 5 times in this thread alone I am sure, not counting many others... Very different idea than Plasm...

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:17 PM

I know what Riftcinder is, that is why I know it is expensive, and why it is expensive in the first place.

This shows you are misunderstanding me. I never said you didn't know. I was agreeing to you that yeah riftcinder, a quest item for Emp which of course is expensive. Rare because its hard to get which is why it's worth the price.. >.> You are the one who said its 2mil. If I know you have relics, emps, them I'm sure I'm smart enough to know you have knowledge of what a riftcinder is..

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:22 PM

Simple answer, its more of a refund than a reward in all honesty since you pay Bayld to enter, and leave with less Bayld than you paid, as a reward. Its not as though you go in by paying 25k or 50k but then walk out having earned 80k while inside of the WK Reive.

Tell me where in the game ever or even in real life do you ever get a refund to do anything? O.o

That's like saying SE should refund me my money for the amount of time I spent.

Disregard this comment if you are meaning giving us extra Bayld would be a refund.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:24 PM

Well DJ what happens when people buy all Delve gear? Max upgrade everything? Answer that for me.They sell Airlixirs and use Plasm to buy Airlixirs to sell. Once everyone in the game has all of those things? Oh, well that time simply will never come, and even if it did, by that point, I have to say we have exhausted the content, and its time for it to die.

And as for plasm as a reward?

You already gain Bayld as a reward in WR. Why add Bayld AND plasm? I just don't see that as reasonable. I don't even see that happening. That's why I don't agree.Well for one, why both? Because giving more Bayld would simply result in a full refund, which I assume SE is attempting to avoid for the most part. Old ones you get a full refund if you have a capped out discount and cap out your Bayld inside, I assume this is due to the fact most people who will have these things have what they want from the NMs most likely and SE thought it would help get people to assist those without the wins already. They would be right too, I am much more likely to help someone when it costs me nothing rather than when I have to shell out some money just to help them when I will get nothing I care about anyways. Secondly, once people cap Bayld, what reason do they have to continue fighting besides speeding up the fight? I mean, if I go on RDM to a Yumcax, its at 57% and I have capped out my Bayld, why would I not just go pop Reraise on real fast, goto the entrance, hop on my Xbox, and play another game? I mean, I do not find WKs very fun really, so why would I keep doing that? I could go clean my house, go to the store, play another game, so long as I can check in at least once every 50 minutes to make sure I have not died, and will not auto-homepoint, I am fine. So really, what incentive do people have to keep fighting? As I said, give more Bayld, your talking about making Bayld, not losing it, or simply getting back a full refund, depending on how much you pay and what the extended cap would be. Plasm is not the same way though, totally different reward, if you let people get Plasm after they cap Bayld, it adds on another reward, and thus, incentive to continue participating, especially since Plasm can be sold in the form of Airlixir's for Gil, and everyone can use Gil in some way really.

Bayld is suppose to be the reason to enjoy the event is how i see why the Devs added it to begin with. Plasm was added to Megaboss in Delve as a huge reward to make it worth the effort.Delve, I agree with, completely, I understand that part. But with Bayld your out of your mind. Its not meant to be the reason you enjoy the event, its a refund for participating, clear and simple, participate a lot, you get a lot of Bayld back, do almost nothing, you get almost nothing back, its another way to reward you for your work, the problem is, the reward is not very good.

Now maybe adjusting the amount of Bayld for defeating a Nakuul to be higher would be a reasonable suggestion from my point of view but taking a reward from another event adding it to WR is not my idea of a good solution.This is one of those times I would delete a comment for already having been answered, but instead I will leave it with this comment as to give an example of what I meant in my earlier post.

Adding synthesis materials or other items i agree would be good too. I never disagreed on that.Good, but you also never really accepted it either, after all, right now you were telling me that all I have given for ideas is Plasm, when I have clearly stated another idea on several occasions.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:28 PM

This shows you are misunderstanding me. I never said you didn't know. I was agreeing to you that yeah riftcinder, a quest item for Emp which of course is expensive. Rare because its hard to get which is why it's worth the price.. >.> You are the one who said its 2mil. If I know you have relics, emps, them I'm sure I'm smart enough to know you have knowledge of what a riftcinder is..Well I am not sure there was much to understand really, you said...

Yeah riftcinder, quest item for Emp.Which I read as.

Yeah, that's because its used for Emps, that's why its so expensive.

No matter.

The point is, you are willing to do Morta still and this reward probably helps influence it, due to its high worth.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:29 PM

Good, but you also never really accepted it either, after all, right now you were telling me that all I have given for ideas is Plasm, when I have clearly stated another idea on several occasions.

Well I only disagreed with 2 ideas. If I didnt accepted any other idea, I'm sure I would have pointed that out already. >.>

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:32 PM

Disregard this comment if you are meaning giving us extra Bayld would be a refund.That's basically what I mean. If you pay 25k to enter a WK Reive in Ceizak and then cap your Bayld you can get, you get 25k, 25k paid, 25k gained, overall Bayld spent, 0. If you enter Yorcia right now, the lowest possible cost is 50k, 25k to enter, possible to get 25k return, as such, 25k spent. The more they give us, the less we really end up paying for entrance in the end due to it being like a refund. So in the end, the only real solution is to give us another form of currency, or other items, as a reward. To keep giving us Bayld would simply eliminate the point of the cost in the first place.

Its the same reason they did not add Voidstones to buy with Cruor, it would create a loop, you buy a Voidstone, do VW, use Cruor from the NM kill to buy a Voidstone, to do another VWNM, and so the cycle continues, forever.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:34 PM

Well I only disagreed with 2 ideas. If I didnt accepted any other idea, I'm sure I would have pointed that out already. >.>What I mean is I have not seen you mention that it would be a workable solution until now, till now, your comments about only having Plasm as a solution lead to the assumption that you have not seen any other real acceptable idea come forth, such as my own. As such, I assumed my idea was not accepted as viable to you, which lead to my post you just quoted.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:36 PM

I also appreciate the fact that you can earn some of the Bayld back to rebuy another Ki but it looks like no one appreciates this so maybe its better for the DEV team to implement another stone system like Abyssea and VW than save Bayld and buy Kis lol.

I mean I hated the fact that I ran out of stones and had to buy void dusts to spam a boss a thousands of times..,

Daemon

08-14-2013, 07:42 PM

That's basically what I mean. If you pay 25k to enter a WK Reive in Ceizak and then cap your Bayld you can get, you get 25k, 25k paid, 25k gained, overall Bayld spent, 0. If you enter Yorcia right now, the lowest possible cost is 50k, 25k to enter, possible to get 25k return, as such, 25k spent. The more they give us, the less we really end up paying for entrance in the end due to it being like a refund. So in the end, the only real solution is to give us another form of currency, or other items, as a reward. To keep giving us Bayld would simply eliminate the point of the cost in the first place.

Its the same reason they did not add Voidstones to buy with Cruor, it would create a loop, you buy a Voidstone, do VW, use Cruor from the NM kill to buy a Voidstone, to do another VWNM, and so the cycle continues, forever.

I just think people are not arguing currency. They are arguing the fact they killed a boss and got a pebble. Solution? Yeah SE should add better drops.

As long as its not regular AH craft items, meds, junks that we have no room in inventory to carry. Unless if its something that can give temporary boosts like Ambrosia.

Please no more logs... Especially when they don't stack..

Something much more appealing like the rare synthesis materials you can get doing cat fights/PW.

Or new synthesis materials you gain from Megabosss.

Or new REM materials to surprise everyone of the future upgrades? If that happens.

Maybe new ABJ gears and ABJ, or unique things that can allow people to walk away more satisfied than feeling like 10 hours of fighting 1 boss for nothing ruined a persons FFXI experience.

I still think SE should add Arise and Meteor to the drops since no one does VW anymore especially PW.

SE if you want to toss in a Haste 2 or Refresh III scroll.. That would be awesome and now would be even a greater time to pull FFXI fans interest as FFXIV is not too far away from the corner, you already are sparking some attention back from us.. And any other tidbits other jobs have been wanting?

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:53 PM

I also appreciate the fact that you can earn some of the Bayld back to rebuy another Ki but it looks like no one appreciates this so maybe its better for the DEV team to implement another stone system like Abyssea and VW than save Bayld and buy Kis lol.You missed the point I was making. Its nice we get Bayld back, but here are the 3 issues with the Bayld we are given.

They can not give more than the current cap, which is 25k, fights often last longer than a person takes to his this cap, and since there is no reward at all past this cap during a battle till the end of it, once you hit the cap, you really have little incentive to continue helping with the fight.

They can not raise the cap, because if they do they create the issue of giving more than you are spending, which is why I assume there is even a cap in the first place, and conveniently placed right at the same amount that you spend on the lowest tier KIs to go fight WKs.

Bayld is easily obtained, there are more time taking ways like Colo/Lair Reives, and very cheap less time taking ways like Skirmish, this leaves it a fairly low value, as I explained earlier, 1 Gil is worth more than 1 Bayld on our server, and as such, its not a very large incentive for participation.

These, are my 3 main points about the issue of Bayld being the only currency form to come from WKs.

Demon6324236

08-14-2013, 07:57 PM

I just think people are not arguing currency. They are arguing the fact they killed a boss and got a pebble. Solution? Yeah SE should add better drops.

As long as its not regular AH craft items, meds, junks that we have no room in inventory to carry. Unless if its something that can give temporary boosts like Ambrosia.

Please no more logs... Especially when they don't stack..

Something much more appealing like the rare synthesis materials you can get doing cat fights/PW.

Or new synthesis materials you gain from Megabosss.

Or new REM materials to surprise everyone of the future upgrades? If that happens.

Maybe new ABJ gears and ABJ, or unique things that can allow people to walk away more satisfied than feeling like 10 hours of fighting 1 boss for nothing ruined a persons FFXI experience.

I still think SE should add Arise and Meteor to the drops since no one does VW anymore especially PW.

SE if you want to toss in a Haste 2 or Refresh III scroll.. That would be awesome and now would be even a greater thing to pull FFXI fans interest as FFXIV is not to far away from the corner, you already are soarking some attention back from us.. And any other tidbits other jobs have been wanting?See, all of this I agree with, all good ideas. I doubt anyone here would disagree.

Side Note: Meteor & Arise shouldn't be much of an issue, Skirmish drops them both right now, Yorcia[U] surely will once implemented for Skirmish's Armor & Weapon+1s, since the event will likely be popular, its safe to assume that these scrolls will be popping up more often soon.

Daemon

08-14-2013, 08:07 PM

I think new crafting gear would a good reward for a typical drop. What I mean is. A lot of new crafting items that Megabosss drop are for very high skilled Crafters.

How SE has given us gear to raise our level past 99, should also release more crafting gear and also items that can help people skill up faster.

Why would these type of items be good for WR? Because Delve heavily promotes godly items for crafters. But only crafter benefit these rewards. Those who obtain a crafting item will always have to hire and pay others. and crafters that HQ will only benefit an extra reward. At least gears can help everyone benefit wanting to skill up and reach those levels to make items like atinian staff etc.

And my suggestion is to make these items drop like Fajin boots etc.

FrankReynolds

08-14-2013, 08:55 PM

OmnysValefor

08-15-2013, 12:28 AM

And once everyone is well geared. The same will happen to WR. Difference is the adjustments were made to be more casual friendly, low manable. Complaints many casuals complained about.

You have to have the right jobs. You really have to at low colonization rate. Hurkan, you need them because that thing bleeds a lot of aoe magic damage.

225k Bayld for 2 ore and 1 log... My computer screen would be shattered by the aura of my anger.

You said this in your first post in the thread. Why so different now?

Daemon

08-15-2013, 03:22 AM

I'm not gonna respond to the numerous absurdities, because this is getting way too long, but I have to ask... How is it that you think RME upgrade items would be okay, but you can't understand plasm coming from the exact same monsters that it comes from in delve? And why is is that you think that it's okay for delve to kill this but not okay for this to kill delve? Why is the preservation of an event that basically is killing all other events so important? The logic is just so broken.

I said "New" REM upgrades as in. If they do plan to upgrade REM, they could surprise us with materials before the upgrades are implemented. Similar to if we had to collect 30k Alex and mythic hasn't been implemented, they could add materials to give us a head start at the same time keep us guessing about the new upgrades.

Daemon

08-15-2013, 03:32 AM

You have to have the right jobs. You really have to at low colonization rate. Hurkan, you need them because that thing bleeds a lot of aoe magic damage.

You said this in your first post in the thread. Why so different now?

Why are you trying to compare 2 totally different comments? The first post is about WoE and how SE made it easy which ruined the event. Which was about difficulty and speed of the event. And how making things easy will only make the event end fast.

That has nothing to do with the last comment. Which means yeah it sucks to get a pebble.

I didn't disagree that SE should give us something else seriously what part of that does no one understand???

OmnysValefor

08-15-2013, 03:36 AM

Daemon

08-15-2013, 03:40 AM

It wasn't a comparison, sorry.

It was just me posting on two different points. Because the first had nothing to do with aquiring loot and the second was entirely about that, I didn't feel like they needed a divider.

Ok but the first was an example of another event that happened in WoE. Which was a horrible mistake. Read it because I'd hate to see the same thing happen to other events.

FrankReynolds

08-15-2013, 03:51 AM

I said "New" REM upgrades as in. If they do plan to upgrade REM, they could surprise us with materials before the upgrades are implemented. Similar to if we had to collect 30k Alex and mythic hasn't been implemented, they could add materials to give us a head start at the same time keep us guessing about the new upgrades.

Okay, but why would they come from WKR?

You said it's not okay to add plasm because it doesn't make sense for it to come from anything but delve (ignoring the fact that almost every other form of currency is available from multiple events). Why? It's in the same expansion and it comes from basically the same NMs. How could it possibly make sense to add RME upgrade items instead of plasm?

On a side note, I think that if they do in fact make people farm more crap to upgrade their 99 weapons, people are gonna go postal on the devs. I'm pretty sure that almost everyone feels like they are finished weapons and are due for a straihgt up boost like all the adoulin gear just got. Not another magian grind fest.

detlef

08-15-2013, 03:53 AM

You remind me of this guy who used to post here a lot. People used to call him the "No Police" and he had a reputation for spending all his time trolling people with legitimate complaints and suggestions. Inevitably, every post he made was anger-inducing.

OmnysValefor

08-15-2013, 03:54 AM

SE may surprise but I doubt REM upgrades will be quested. I think they'll just be given, because, and only because, they said 99 and 99ag's are both permitted. I don't think SE wants to keep creating 2 strains along a quest path.

detlef

08-15-2013, 04:25 AM

I think they will involve "winning" the existing top tier content somehow.

FrankReynolds

08-15-2013, 05:14 AM

I think they will come in the form of "In the next update we will be making the following adjustments to RME weapons..."

dasva

08-15-2013, 11:10 AM

I'm really begining to think the wkr was specifically designed just to stall for more time for them to get more content out and was deliberately made and changed to encourage litterally dozens of attempts to get the items you need and play styles within the fight that are not conducive to actually beating the nm and in fact make the fight take longer and encourages people to show up late making it take even longer

Daemon

08-15-2013, 11:29 AM

OmnysValefor

08-15-2013, 11:45 AM

Could explain how we're 40 pages into this, and there's been no reply.

Rekin

08-16-2013, 03:07 AM

Daemon

08-16-2013, 03:36 AM

Something tells me REM revamps won't see the light of day til all the WKRs are out and that if SE had some sense they'd just make the gateway to making your weap Ilevel 120 is to win them all and maybe do all delve megas for w/e the current max will be at that time.

I would imagine they would work on REM. for one, its already coded. Not like recoding and redesigning brand new weapons from the ground up. That would be more work.

Also REM is important because without them we would only be stuck with Merit Weaponskills. Unless SE decides to WoW us with new ones, I see REM just needs a few tweaks and minor adjustments.

Then again I'm sure they would implement it when the time is right. Wouldn't want to draw attention away from SoA.

It's also another event to use. Wouldn't want to give everybody all events at the same time. Too many people made REM and spend endless amounts of time, Gil, stress to just ignore it.

I'm hoping they do it after implementing the new Skirmish. By then people should be busy enough to give the DEVs time to revamp it.

OmnysValefor

08-16-2013, 03:47 AM

(3.5 months is plenty of time.)

Daemon

08-16-2013, 03:57 AM

(3.5 months is plenty of time.)

Yeah once SoA is under control.

scaevola

08-16-2013, 07:30 AM

Daemon

08-16-2013, 07:36 AM

Dudes, I gotta say it seems pretty obvious WKR was intended as a bayldsink, unless you're reducing your entry fee to the point that you're making a profit (at which point I wonder why you need more bayld at all?).

Well yeah I don't think anyone is suggesting to add more Bayld. We are just saying they need to add better loots than a pebble, ore, log, if they intend to keep stalling us on WR so they can have more time to work on other content.

Otherwise people will be angry and eventually give up when it's already obvious the event is lacking and we know already they are stalling us.

Fynlar

08-16-2013, 07:44 AM

Well yeah I don't think anyone is suggesting to add more Bayld.

I think there should be SOME sort of incentive to keep going past 25k bayld, because all it leads to is people earning their 25k and then just standing AFK at the side until the fight ends

It's kinda like how ineffectual melees (for instance, ones that didn't have a Ixtab/Xbalanque/Hunahpu/Tamaxchi in July before the ilvl weapon patch) join the fight, realize how ineffectual they are, and then just stand on the side because they aren't willing to go change their job because they would lose their key item

Daemon

08-16-2013, 07:55 AM

I think there should be SOME sort of incentive to keep going past 25k bayld, because all it leads to is people earning their 25k and then just standing AFK at the side until the fight ends

It's kinda like how ineffectual melees (for instance, ones that didn't have a Ixtab/Xbalanque/Hunahpu/Tamaxchi in July before the ilvl weapon patch) join the fight, realize how ineffectual they are, and then just stand on the side because they aren't willing to go change their job because they would lose their key item

I thought you actually have to participate to cap your Bayld. Preventing people from just afking on the side. Which wouldn't make sense for them to only participate that long just to afk.

Fynlar

08-16-2013, 08:17 AM

It's occasionally very easy to cap your bayld very early into a fight and then stand AFK to the side because you have no reason to participate any further.

Also, the way the evaluation system works is that you can put in a lot of work toward killing lesser mobs or healing or whatever, and the game "saves" that work you've done, only to gradually distribute the EXP/bayld to you as the reive target gets damaged more. Campaign battles actually worked in the exact same way after they got patched a while back (the maximum limits on EXP/AN were reached after having tags on for 15 minutes, but it was possible to reach those limits much sooner and then kick back until you had tags on for those 15 minutes)

I've been part of a few slow-starting Hurkan fights where I can destroy a ton of the birds on my DRG and not get much bayld at first because Hurkan is hardly receiving any damage, only to then stand on the side and gradually reach my 25k cap without having to do anything further.

OmnysValefor

08-16-2013, 09:28 AM

Daemon

08-16-2013, 09:43 AM

I just think if people spent time to earn Bayld, Do quest for Nakuuls, buy Ki, Participate long enough to cap Bayld. Then why afk? It's pointless to level up to 99, earn gear and be at that point of the game just to park your character and do nothing.

Why even play FFXI to begin with?

OmnysValefor

08-16-2013, 09:47 AM

Some people, because they have things they have to do. There's been a dozen times ls members have told me that htey've got go to work, please try to make sure they don't die.

You're beginning to understand the tediousness of the event. You do all that to prepare, and then it pops up at a time highly inconvenient for you.

Demon6324236

08-16-2013, 10:31 AM

In my opinion, why afk? Well, last night for instance, I spent 5 hours curing at Yumcax, straight, to cap my Bayld and get my GF's character 15 out of her 25k. After that point, I was so bored of healing and dying I simply sat in the corner for the last 5%, just waiting, I was tired, and not up for continuing. At the same time, had I capped us both, I would have done the exact same thing, be it 5% or 20%, because I was tired of healing, and no way to change my job to do something more fun.

Fynlar

08-16-2013, 12:35 PM

Yeah, it's easy for some jobs, hard for others. Bard has nearly no hope, they don't even always get into the double digits. SE doesn't weight songs properly which I guess I can understand the difficulty. They don't want to give 25k bayld to someone hitting a spam macro..

COR gets the shaft too, which is unfortunate because (at least on our server) they are absolutely required en masse if you want to beat Yumcax. It's like for whatever reason, Quick Draw damage doesn't actually count toward the user's evaluation; it only counts as a single JA used against an enemy.

I just think if people spent time to earn Bayld, Do quest for Nakuuls, buy Ki, Participate long enough to cap Bayld. Then why afk? It's pointless to level up to 99, earn gear and be at that point of the game just to park your character and do nothing.

Why even play FFXI to begin with?

Because people want to be rewarded for what they do, and if they've reached 25k bayld + aren't or can't really do anything effective against the Naakual, they don't see a reason to stick around.

detlef

08-16-2013, 12:40 PM

COR gets the shaft too, which is unfortunate because (at least on our server) they are absolutely required en masse if you want to beat Yumcax. It's like for whatever reason, Quick Draw damage doesn't actually count toward the user's evaluation; it only counts as a single JA used against an enemy.I feel bad for COR (but leveled it myself) because you are so necessary to win, but you get shit rewards compared to someone who just kills fodder. It's sad.

Because people want to be rewarded for what they do, and if they've reached 25k bayld + aren't or can't really do anything effective against the Naakual, they don't see a reason to stick around.Agree completely. If the event were shortened, or if it was more fun, then maybe people would be encourage to contribute more enthusiastically rather than show up, do the minimum, and hope you don't die.

detlef

08-19-2013, 12:48 AM

Another Yumcax, no drops on main or mule. Daemon says it's working as intended though.

OmnysValefor

08-19-2013, 12:56 AM

42 pages in, I'm starting to believe he's right.

Daemon

08-19-2013, 02:09 AM

Well I was saying why would they adjust it again if they already:

Lowered the cost of Ki's,
Made it easier to earn more Bayld faster,
Made it easier to get to WR by allowing Colonization Rate to stay up longer
Made colonization Rieves easier to defeat so you can take them down on your way to WR,
Further reduce the amount you can purchase Ki by raising ability to earn higher rank,
Allows you the ability to earn some of the Bayld back spent on purchasing Ki to begin with,

I just don't see them turning around and adjusting something again when they did already and need to make observations as to how the adjustment has it effects.

And yeah I do think it was intended to work this way, looking back at the old HNMs, this new direction is way better in comparison.

I also think because people sped past Delve earning items easier than REM had a rush of a quickfix and now expect all other events to be just as fast and easy. And are forgetting that not all items are going to drop in your lap at the same rate.

Daemon

08-19-2013, 02:32 AM

As I said game development is about adding, taking things away, making adjustments to balance like playing tug-o-war.

At the cost of convenience comes sacrifice. Take one thing away and the effect may have its good side but also have its bad side.

People complain its too hard. They make it easier which will speed up the event so you progress right past it quicker.

Make it too easy, then some people will complain its not hard enough. So they make it hard and then people complain it takes too long and because its too hard they give up.

I already said WR is the new HNM. Rather than wait all week for it to pop once, you can earn Ki to form a group and do it anytime as many times as you want.

You don't have to purchase pop with Gil like Savory Shank and Sweet Tea.
You don't have to kill each other of who gets to lot items.
No more claim competition.
No more switching out dead people for fresh people.

Rather than tip the balance to easy or hard, they made it easy and longer to play.

Game Development class. I actually paid attention =p

Daemon

08-19-2013, 03:13 AM

Then again I never disagreed on adding better crap loots and rares to give us a better reason to keep on spamming WR. But I'm sure since Gil is not involved like VW, they probably implemented the current condition this way as part of economy balance. How many people spent Gil buying cells and voiddust?

I mean people did complain "NO MORE CELLS! NO MORE VOID DUST!"
Which to me they addressed the complaint. That's why it cost Bayld instead of stones and void dust.

No more cells for chance of drop. Which I think Rubicund cells were meant to be a placebo just to deflate the Gil being made from VW.

Yes developers have placebo in their arsenal as a weapon to balance a cause.

In order to add ways to earn Gil from the event, they would have to implement a reason to deflate it.

That's why I said they can't please everybody. Complaint they address comes a new swarm of complaints to follow that adjustment meant to solve the majorities concern.

OmnysValefor

08-19-2013, 04:07 AM

You have to stop bringing up that class as a defense for everything.

Incredibly well coded (this isn't) and well orchestrated (this isn't) poor design, still just amounts to poor design.

I've never built a game, but I've probably done many aspects of it. I've done 3D modeling, texture-mapping, art, programming, database interaction. I've made a controllable character and little animated movies.

I know what low res models are, why to use them and how to make them look higher resolution.

We're not even getting updates or feedback most the time. We're simply getting ignored. Topics that are months old, or topics they brought up a year or more ago, we get no updates on.

Man.. it can't be any more clear.

Daemon

08-19-2013, 05:31 AM

We're not even getting updates or feedback most the time. We're simply getting ignored.

Then you need to stop acting like the DEV team doesn't do anything.
We just had an update this month and last month.

Matsui already said from now on he will be filling us in on details before each update than promise some ideas in a year long roadmap that could be irrelevant over time. I already explained this before.

If you really want to know what's going on in advance then download the test server and play to see what's going to be added in the next update.

Complaints is not going to get any DEV to pay attention especially after they already adjusted something which the title of your post clearly says,

"We know you just updated the event to be easier but its not good enough now fix it again."

And because you surf the forums every day I know you expect a community rep or DEV to answer you when I try to tell you they usually respond to several people at once.

Which I've seen after updates implemented.

Rather than understand and actually listen to the man, all I see is complaints like these as ungrateful and rather move forward you are showing me that its better to hold a grudge on someone who is trying to prove they are changing the way they do things all because you can't get past the idea that the man didnt keep his promises in the past.

People make mistakes, at least i'm seeing him trying to take things at a different approach.

He did promise us 2 months of content and kept his word except Skirmish. But it's reasonable to understand that he couldn't have it ready for this month. At least he told everyone.

If you truly do understand everything you say you do then you would know that you cannot pressure someone to do more work than they already are doing for you.

Daemon

08-19-2013, 06:01 AM

Here's one to think about. Your idea of WR not being a good event might be relevant now because not many people have all the best Nakuul gear.

But once a good majority of the people obtain these items.

Your idea will become irrelevant.

Which is part of time factor and balance.

And the main reason why year long road maps, promises to REM don't work. Unless they implement everything on the spot

Which further means that what's irrelevant to you may be relevant to the DEV TEAM in the long run.

And why things may sum up to be "Working as intended."

Seriously go back and re-read everything I said until it sinks in, then maybe you'll understand why I had to repeat myself.

No DEV will implement any event, adjust it only to go back and re-adjust that event the next day or week or month. (Unless if its an emergency)

They have to watch and see the outcome first of how the community will react and play that event before making further adjustments.

And when I said give them time, this is the reason why I said it.

detlef

08-19-2013, 10:36 AM

Another Yumcax,this time absolutely nothing loaded in my inventory (I was 62/80). Working as intended. 3.5 hours down the shitter, thanks for making all those posts about how we're getting gear too quickly Daemon. This event fucking sucks.

OmnysValefor

08-19-2013, 11:06 AM

Two other people in that same Yumcax, myself included, got nothing but Arrowwood logs.

I don't know man... poor design is poor design.

Daemon

08-19-2013, 04:01 PM

Two other people in that same Yumcax, myself included, got nothing but Arrowwood logs.

I don't know man... poor design is poor design.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it sucks by the way.

I'm just saying give it time in a sense that this event does not look complete. I see the DEV team possibly adding other features later.

It does lack but in order to give them time to work on projects they need events that will stall people. WR looks like one of those events.

VW wasn't perfect when it first was implemented. And my point to you was it takes time to see results before adjustments can further be made. They already adjusted several things that effect WR, they need to see how it will play out.

I'm not saying don't give feedback. Just present feedback rather than complaints. It will make it much more easier on the DEV TEAM than weed out pointless rants with the serious ideas that others present.

I made that AF4 thread twice. The first one did not get enough attention. So i made a new one as presenting an idea than giving a complaint rant.

Then I observed one of the things implemented that was related to my idea and posted a copy and comment on my AF4 thread, which I then noticed the Community reps not only respond to me but several others on the same day.

(The reason I understand why they responded was because they could give official word on the comment I made.)

I also was trying to tell you that Community reps may not answer people on a daily basis on the spot because they need to have answers ready before they do otherwise conflicts happen.

How can you address many questions on every single forum if you don't have any official answer to give?

This is why I said be patient and give them room to breathe. It doesn't help to read and translate every single topic, comment on a daily basis especially if the majority is bashing DEVS, Community Reps, SE and ignoring the work they did in the current updates.

Because my attitude has changed to be more understanding and now I present my ideas at a different approach, I think that would be much more welcoming to the people behind the scenes.

detlef

08-19-2013, 06:20 PM

I'm not saying don't give feedback. Just present feedback rather than complaints. It will make it much more easier on the DEV TEAM than weed out pointless rants with the serious ideas that others present."This sucks and here's why" is perfectly valid feedback. On the NA side, it might not be sufficient to make a well-reasoned post. It never hurts to have mass outrage and sheer number of complaints on your side. Oh and of course hope the JPs have the same complaints.

FrankReynolds

08-19-2013, 07:37 PM

"This sucks and here's why" is perfectly valid feedback. On the NA side, it might not be sufficient to make a well-reasoned post. It never hurts to have mass outrage and sheer number of complaints on your side. Oh and of course hope the JPs have the same complaints.

They almost always do. The only difference is that they say stuff like "Matsui San, please kindly consider increasing the drop rate on these. I believe your intentions have been to create a fun event that everyone can do and I believe that you have made great progress, but many players talk about how unrewarding it can be in terms of items. Perhaps in future updates you could possibly increase the rewards".

Instead of "WTF Man?!? This event sucks. 1,000 fights and no drops? What kind of skinner box BS is this?!? You should be ashamed of yourselves!".

To be honest, I admire the humble politeness of the JPs, but It doesn't seem to be getting the point across.

On the point of VW: It sucked. I pretty much just skipped it and didn't play much for a long time because that's all there was. A lot of people Did do it, but then pretty much stopped playing because it sucked and that's all there was. Like me, most of them probably didn't flat out cancel, so I guess that's a success?

Daemon

08-19-2013, 09:23 PM

They almost always do. The only difference is that they say stuff like "Matsui San, please kindly consider increasing the drop rate on these. I believe your intentions have been to create a fun event that everyone can do and I believe that you have made great progress, but many players talk about how unrewarding it can be in terms of items. Perhaps in future updates you could possibly increase the rewards".

Instead of "WTF Man?!? This event sucks. 1,000 fights and no drops? What kind of skinner box BS is this?!? You should be ashamed of yourselves!".

To be honest, I admire the humble politeness of the JPs, but It doesn't seem to be getting the point across.

On the point of VW: It sucked. I pretty much just skipped it and didn't play much for a long time because that's all there was. A lot of people Did do it, but then pretty much stopped playing because it sucked and that's all there was. Like me, most of them probably didn't flat out cancel, so I guess that's a success?

Yeah what Frank said. It's just translating insults can make Asians feel really bad. I mean here in NA people don't care but Korea, Japan have respect, courtesy, manners grinded into everyone.

You are lucky not to be born in Korea. Anyone older than you by 1-2 years old have authority to discipline you if you disrespect someone. Sad thing is you are not allowed to resist the beatings even if its someone you don't know or else police will join in and beat you to a pulp.

Schools are separated between males and females only. To prevent distraction. And teachers have very strict punishments. Like beat students with a ruler, make a person bow down on their knees outside and stay for hours.

Also the Majority of JP players age range 30+. When I went to Japan my friend told me kids do not play video games. Only responsible adults. Because school is first priority. Dunno how its like now.

When I stood in line on the day of PS2 launch, only business men were in a massive line ready to buy it. I did not see any kids.

Heck even I saw a woman leave her purse outside on her bicycle in broad daylight in front of Blockbuster. Apparently stealing is equivalent to murder. They will humiliate you by placing you on the front page of every newspaper, news station, radio etc.

FrankReynolds

08-19-2013, 10:25 PM

Yeah what Frank said. It's just translating insults can make Asians feel really bad. I mean here in NA people don't care but Korea, Japan have respect, courtesy, manners grinded into everyone.

You are lucky not to be born in Korea. Anyone older than you by 1-2 years old have authority to discipline you if you disrespect someone. Sad thing is you are not allowed to resist the beatings even if its someone you don't know or else police will join in and beat you to a pulp.

Schools are separated between males and females only. To prevent distraction. And teachers have very strict punishments. Like beat students with a ruler, make a person bow down on their knees outside and stay for hours.

Also the Majority of JP players age range 30+. When I went to Japan my friend told me kids do not play video games. Only responsible adults. Because school is first priority. Dunno how its like now.

When I stood in line on the day of PS2 launch, only business men were in a massive line ready to buy it. I did not see any kids.

Heck even I saw a woman leave her purse outside on her bicycle in broad daylight in front of Blockbuster. Apparently stealing is equivalent to murder. They will humiliate you by placing you on the front page of every newspaper, news station, radio etc.

I dunno, let's not blanket apply this to everyone in those countries. I have a friend who works at a major electronics company in Japan. Last we spoke, he was managing a division involved in manufacturing machines / robots that build hard disk drives. He loves to post pictures of himself getting trashed with the executives and a bunch of strippers. He spends a lot of time in Korea and Thailand too, as that is where most of the actual manufacturing takes place. It's no wonder hard drives fail so much. Sometimes I wonder if he actually does any work or if he just gets drunk with a bunch of guys who use neckties for headbands for a living...

Any ways, the point wasn't that Asian people are nice or mean. The point was that I don't think the severity of the situation or the passion of the players is often adequately conveyed to the people making the changes. Whether it's due to the general politeness of the JP culture or just aggressive forum moderation, I don't know. It doesn't really matter.

Anyways, back on topic: This event has already basically died on Cerberus and I'm gonna have to go ahead and say that crappy drop rates and incredibly long fights killed it, since I don't see very many people rocking the gear.

On a related note, I've been really trying to do stuff in Yorcia Weald to get the rate up and cooperate with the devs, but I have to say... That zone just straight up sucks. They should delete it and start over from scratch.

detlef

08-20-2013, 03:25 AM

detlef

08-29-2013, 10:19 PM

Valefor just endured a 13-hour Yumcax. I was there for 8 hours and received herb seeds for my trouble. That is just terrible and is the kind of thing that justifies taking a break from the game. I'm glad Daemon doesn't play XI anymore so he can't post that we should wait and see what the devs have planned.

Demon6324236

08-29-2013, 10:40 PM

He was a friend, I cant say the same about being happy hes gone.

So far as WKs go, I was in 1 2 nights ago, I got a Lesser Chigoe, nothing more. I also went to a Yumcax yesterday which shouted for probably close to 4~6 hours that I saw, people had so little hope in that battle that around hour 4, it went form 40 people, to 20 people, by the time I warped out and had given up completely, we had 7 people left. The battle took to long and to many people that we constantly wiped any time we tried to get started, shouts were going badly because there was no interest, and we ended up simply calling it quits, all of my 70k Bayld was wasted in every way possible, because it went to absolutely nothing, all because the battle is that poor.

Rewards are a large issue, but lets not forget the battles themselves are bad as well, and part of why the reward issue is so bad too, after all, if it took 1~2 hours a fight, I doubt we would complain about WKs very much, but with most people experiencing many back to back 5+ hour marathon battles with WKs, it only makes the sting of getting nothing in the end that much worse.

Umichi

08-29-2013, 11:25 PM

those fights are still taking 4+ hours on your servers? :3

Demon6324236

08-29-2013, 11:41 PM

OmnysValefor

08-30-2013, 12:56 AM

After several WKs, some players either had their drops, or gave up (like me, I just won't go anymore. Wasting 5 hours for a log is just stupid.)

At some point, you get more and more people not willing to come on the right jobs, or simply unable to. These "right jobs" are COR, SMN, PLD, WHM, Heavy DD / Well geared DD. BLMs can, in some sitautions, do good damage to some WK now, but SMN can do a lot more damage before hate becomes an issue.

Couple that with Valefor not being able to break 800 players any time I've /sea'd in the last three days, and at least a quarter of those are afk, probably 50 more are mules.

OmnysValefor

08-30-2013, 01:00 AM

I'm forever a pessimist and a little bit of a conspiracy theorist at times, but it just seems like they're trying to make XI suck.

OmnysValefor

08-30-2013, 01:04 AM

If it took 1~2 hours a fight, I doubt we would complain about WKs very much, but with most people experiencing many back to back 5+ hour marathon battles with WKs, it only makes the sting of getting nothing in the end that much worse.

Nah, their probably wouldn't be many complaints. The chief problem, for me, has always been simply that the battle can take an hour, or it can take 13, apparently, and you have no control over it. 18 people coming on the right jobs has an impact, but one person doesn't.

That, and the ability of one twilight zombie to keep everyone on the ground for 15 minutes because they're dumb, or enjoying themselves.

I'm shocked that your Yumcax went that bad. Sucks man :/

detlef

08-30-2013, 03:08 AM

He was a friend, I cant say the same about being happy hes gone.Sorry, I hate him. I hated how he kept saying wait and see, wait and see, people are getting drops too fast. And then he bailed on the game. I also hated how he took one course on game design and he lorded that over us as if he knew something we didn’t. And I hated how he kept proposing solutions that the devs would never go for, then had the gall to question others for not doing the same.

Yeah, I won’t miss him.

So far as WKs go, I was in 1 2 nights ago, I got a Lesser Chigoe, nothing more. I also went to a Yumcax yesterday which shouted for probably close to 4~6 hours that I saw, people had so little hope in that battle that around hour 4, it went form 40 people, to 20 people, by the time I warped out and had given up completely, we had 7 people left. The battle took to long and to many people that we constantly wiped any time we tried to get started, shouts were going badly because there was no interest, and we ended up simply calling it quits, all of my 70k Bayld was wasted in every way possible, because it went to absolutely nothing, all because the battle is that poor.

Rewards are a large issue, but lets not forget the battles themselves are bad as well, and part of why the reward issue is so bad too, after all, if it took 1~2 hours a fight, I doubt we would complain about WKs very much, but with most people experiencing many back to back 5+ hour marathon battles with WKs, it only makes the sting of getting nothing in the end that much worse.Yes, I completely agree that if the fight itself had not been so intolerable I would not have posted this morning. I would have been upset by my herb seeds and silently cursed to myself, but I wouldn't have bothered posting. Our issue was that the tanks were completely and utterly unable to hold hate. Or they were dying, I’m not sure what was happening because I couldn’t target them. All I know is that hate was everywhere. I’d do 1k damage in t1 nukes and while I might not pull hate, somebody else would.

As the fight wore on, more and more people went afk. They wouldn’t get up when raised. As time went on, you could see them disappear as they HPed after an hour. And I don’t blame them at all, you simply can’t be expected to keep actively participating for so long. One of my LS members actually went afk, HPed, slept, then ran back to the fight before she left for work. The last 5% took at least 90 minutes. We definitely could've used reinforcements, but who in their right mind will head out to Yorcia if they hear that the NM is at 5%?

And this is at 50% colonization too. People have been busy on Valefor; 50% is really good for us. People have been complaining about low server numbers, but Valefor has been in the 700’s during NA primetime this week.

Yes DJ, this time I’m not even complaining about the drops. I would love to get what I want so I can end this hellish façade once and for all, but at this point, I would settle for a 2 hour fight that doesn’t make me miserable. For now though, that’s it. I will not do Yumcax again. That was a terrible experience for something that’s supposed to be fun.

Demon6324236

08-30-2013, 03:43 AM

Sorry, I hate him. I hated how he kept saying wait and see, wait and see, people are getting drops too fast. And then he bailed on the game. I also hated how he took one course on game design and he lorded that over us as if he knew something we didn’t. And I hated how he kept proposing solutions that the devs would never go for, then had the gall to question others for not doing the same.

Yeah, I won’t miss him.Forum wise, I disagreed with most of what he said, and by most I mean 95% of it. Game wise, I cant say the same. Knowing him only on here, I can see why you would feel as you do.

Yes, I completely agree that if the fight itself had not been so intolerable I would not have posted this morning. I would have been upset by my herb seeds and silently cursed to myself, but I wouldn't have bothered posting. Our issue was that the tanks were completely and utterly unable to hold hate. Or they were dying, I’m not sure what was happening because I couldn’t target them. All I know is that hate was everywhere. I’d do 1k damage in t1 nukes and while I might not pull hate, somebody else would.

As the fight wore on, more and more people went afk. They wouldn’t get up when raised. As time went on, you could see them disappear as they HPed after an hour. And I don’t blame them at all, you simply can’t be expected to keep actively participating for so long. One of my LS members actually went afk, HPed, slept, then ran back to the fight before she left for work. The last 5% took at least 90 minutes. We definitely could've used reinforcements, but who in their right mind will head out to Yorcia if they hear that the NM is at 5%?

And this is at 50% colonization too. People have been busy on Valefor; 50% is really good for us. People have been complaining about low server numbers, but Valefor has been in the 700’s during NA primetime this week.

Yes DJ, this time I’m not even complaining about the drops. I would love to get what I want so I can end this hellish façade once and for all, but at this point, I would settle for a 2 hour fight that doesn’t make me miserable. For now though, that’s it. I will not do Yumcax again. That was a terrible experience for something that’s supposed to be fun.I am basically to the same point myself. I made due with a cure set now without the damned club for my RDM, which was its only use for me, and so now I basically wait for Hurkan shouts, which haven't happened on Phoenix in like 2 weeks that I have seen, which sucks for me. After I get my feet & head from Hurkan I will simply get my free hat from Yumcax & be done with it all if I can even manage to do that much.

These fights are getting horrible, worse and worse as time goes on, no one would be stupid enough to go help people in these fights once they have the drops, its not something like Shinryu where you go to fight him with some friends or LS members to help out, while knowing it probably wont drop, but it wont take long. Since you cant really count on people you know on, you have to hope that there are somewhere between 50 to 100 people willing and able to come out and fight the NM who are also on the right jobs for it so they can actually help, and are also competent. That's asking a lot for an event which was basically made in such a way it would obviously die after a while by design.

So far as the low server counts go, I have 1k people on Phoenix, yet Yorcia bounces between 45~50% on a daily basis, never getting higher or lower than that really. Marjami stays at 100% as one would expect though. These fights really are depressing, no one does the old ones at all anymore on Phoenix, except 1 Shark shout that was going 2 days ago during a Yumcax shout, it only took 14 hours from start to finish, and its old, not even the newer one. How SE doesn't see these need adjusted to be funner, shorter, more rewarding, and overall enjoyable, is beyond me. Maybe we are just crazy English speakers for thinking games should be enjoyed, it seems like SE often designs this game with the idea of it being a job, not in any way recreation besides side events like Monstrosity.

FaeQueenCory

08-30-2013, 11:42 PM

Yes. Most people already have the drops, and unlike if it were easier to get, they know the fights suck and take forever even with a good deal of people, so no one who has their drops even thinks of going back to help others with it. Phoenix hasn't had a fast Yumcax in a while, since the one Ultimas brought up earlier in this thread, I have seen 3 hours as the personal shortest I attended, though I heard the battle started 2 hours before that when they were starting to make progress, and that they spent 6 hours before that trying to gather people. All in all, the time investment required to simply gather people is insane, let alone the battle itself.
This is pretty much the reason I have yet to do any WKR... I just don't have the real life time.
This isn't so much a problem during the summer.... but fall brings back school and whatnot...
I've had friends spend 12hr "in" a WKR... with most of that just getting ppl and getting them all to the place.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 05:24 AM

Daemon

08-31-2013, 05:37 AM

Btw. I'm disgusted and embarassed being part of the NA community. People complain, put others down, bully, treat others with such disrespect. Don't know when to STFU and be happy that you even have attention to begin with.

Devs no matter what game it is bust their arse off to bring you a game only for you to complain and give them a hard time when they are already doing their best.

Never satisfied.

All because you want answers NOW!!! Not tomorrow, not next week, not next month!!!!

And when they do answer you, you complain because its not the response you wanted!!

And yes sometimes people do get caught up with other things in life. EVERYONE DOES! Doesn't mean a DEV needs to hold on to your hand 24/7 to make you happy.

Yoshi P from FFXIV crying in a video because of how hard he has been working to make 14 happen again only to get such horrible support from the NA/EU community. Apologizing for the servers being down only hoping to breathe and finally rest from working so hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SWSMdCMyvE

Poor guy looks like he hasn't slept in days.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1377607456219725587

I just hope Matsui doesn't break down into tears from all the hell you people give him.

Check your hate at the door. "SLAM"

Daemon

08-31-2013, 05:42 AM

And thank you DJ for seeing that debates are debates. Friendship is not defined by a few mere topic discussions arguing over a game on the forums. I miss you too enough that I paid another sub fee to come login and see you.

FrankReynolds

08-31-2013, 06:02 AM

detlef

08-31-2013, 06:02 AM

It's sad how you can judge someone you've never met. Yeah maybe we don't agree in terms of forum topics. That doesn't mean I'm a prick or some evil mean shady person who doesn't know how to get along with others.I don't really hate you. You're probably a decent person. I don't know you. When you posted about getting mugged after leaving Gamestop, I genuinely felt terrible for you.

I just hate you as a poster. Which is more to say, I really dislike the way you post and your motivations.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 06:09 AM

If you can't handle debating with someone like me who tries to look at the glass from many angles than my own, then why are you here debating to begin with?

Daemon

08-31-2013, 06:12 AM

LMAO Dude isn't making a cure for cancer man. He's making a video game, getting paid an incredible salary and charging us money for it.

And FYI, over a billion people speak English. Trying to lump English speaking people into any category other than "People who speak English" is an automatic fail.

Ok I don't disagree with you. I'm sure he is making a lot of money. But then again I've been to Japan. It's godly expensive to live there.

I just don't agree that when DEVs are showing their work through updates and have responded to posts like Matsui saying they do read and listen to the NA community.

He gave a response why are people complaining?

Daemon

08-31-2013, 06:13 AM

I don't really hate you. You're probably a decent person. I don't know you. When you posted about getting mugged after leaving Gamestop, I genuinely felt terrible for you.

I just hate you as a poster. Which is more to say, I really dislike the way you post and your motivations.

Yeah not everyone likes me as a poster. But my age difference, cultural difference in thinking is not the same as others.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 06:23 AM

I can relate to DEV team. How?

I stand in front of crowds from 300-500 people per night at my weekly residencies as DJ, who come to hear me play music. Over 2,000+ at big parties like Gay pride.

And the crowd is always different each day.

Having to read body language and observe the crowds reaction every second of the night thinking which Genre, Tempo, music to play.

My job is hard because I have to be a mind reader and play what I think will make the most people happy. And it's impossible to make everyone happy.

In the house music scene, we have hits, instrumentals, dubs, different versions.

And yes we do play certain tracks to "Stall" the crowd and pace out the top anthems in our sets because it doesn't make sense to play every single hit back to back.

As a DJ our performance isn't strictly about instant results, but also results that are seen over the course of 6 months to a year.

Instant results bring instant crowds who come and go as they please, expect us to play something off their cellphone.

A crowd we build results over the course of time is the type of crowd that stays and if they leave, they will go to other places and see the quality is not as good and come back.

What I do is very much similar to what a DEV team does. Without the computer programming, limitations, hardcore obstacles, other people in a company breathing down my back telling me what to do.

I'm sure Matsui would love to do everything you want but behind the scenes, it doesn't work that way.

If SE is paying him to do things, I'm sure he is being paid to do exactly what they tell him.

Meaning every change he does has to go through several other people through meetings, and careful planning. He can't just sit in front of the computer and change this or that for you because you want him to.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 06:23 AM

Honestly I feel worse for Yoshi, why? Simple, because I do not play FFXIV, but from what I have been told both about the original FFXIV and AAR, he seems to work very hard on the game, he takes in a lot of feedback, and tries to improve it to the best of his ability. He took on a project where he had to make a game which got horrible reviews and was widely accepted as the worst mistake in company history, and had to deal with the pressure of being expected to turn that around and make it a great game. To have anyone complaining at you after that, I would have to think would have an impact on a person , after all, again, a lot of pressure on you to get things right after the epic fail of the original. So in his case, I can be a bit more understanding, and I would be much more forgiving.

Now, in the case of Matsui, it is the other way around. FFXI had issues before Matsui ever came in, and I think before SoA was out he really did improve the game quite a bit with the limited amount of work he could put into it while working on everything SoA would bring. However, SoA did cause many people to leave, more are leaving now because of FFXIV. Unlike Yoshi, who took on a project to recreate a MMO, Matsui took on the role of producer for a game that had been going for over a decade. All Matsui had to do to make us happy was listen to feedback, change very little in how the game worked in terms of most things, but do as we asked in other cases. For instance, we all hated VW because of its drop system, so, all he had to do to fix that event would be to make the drop rates better, and keep that kind of thing in mind for the future, no more .1% drop rates on hard/high level NMs, easy enough. But, he failed to do that, just like here he is failing to make WKs enjoyable, fun battles, or make them faster, or make the drops better, all of which seem easy to me, lower the WKs level/HP/DMG/Kickassitude, and make it so you always get 1 drop that is R/EX, if you have them all, you have a chance at rare craft items like Oru Ingots and other rare VW/Legion only craft items, or Delve Boss Craft items.

In the end, I am less forgiving of Matsui because when he stepped in, the game wasn't doing great or amazing, but it was fine for the most part, since SoA released, which I assume he heavily influenced, it has seemingly gone to hell. On the other hand, Yoshi stepping into a game which was in hell, and pulling it up out of the hell it was in by turning it into a good game, that I understand puts stress on a person, breaking down because of a few complaints may seem weak to some, but in all honesty, with the stress he's been under, I can understand why he would. They are both in very different situations to me, and so, while I can feel somewhat bad for Yoshi, and I can also understand his breaking down, I can not say the same for Matsui. I still support Matsui, but I also feel at the same time he makes mistakes often now with SoA, and he needs to listen to feedback more now than ever before from both sides of the community or it will only shrink faster & faster.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 06:35 AM

He gave a response why are people complaining?Because the response looked to be a lie. He basically came in a room full of angry people with 3 people off to the side cheering him on who were happy, and said.

Matsui here.

First off, I want to say thank you very much for the positive comments made in the "Mr. Matsui" thread! I'm sorry that I haven't been able to respond directly to it.

Though we have the English reps running the ship around here, all of the discussions that take place on the English forum gets shared with both me and the other developers, and we take all of your comments into consideration when implementing new content and making adjustments.

Reading all of your posts, we get the feeling that there are a lot of you who are enjoying the various challenges and this is very encouraging for us on the development team to read.

We will continue to implement content that poses a good challenge, as well as content that can be enjoyed by a wide range of players.

Please continue to submit your feedback and hold even more discussions about the game.
Thank you very much.Firstly, how many positive comments were there really? It seems like he more or less was told the title, the original post, and nothing more. Very little of that entire thread was positive.

Secondly, they are reading all of our posts, and get the feeling that a lot of us are enjoying the various content, however, how many people seem happy here? I saw praise for Monstrosity for the first week it was out, still no real complains about it, all good. But, what about Skirmish? Delve? WKs? Reives in general? Coalition Assignments? Most of SoA is complained about, Monstrosity isn't even part of SoA, its excluded. The entire new expansion though for the most part seems to be met with little positive feedback in my opinion.

Skirmish died when it was born, Delve was repetitive to all hell, WKs are explained all throughout this thread, Reives suffer from many issues involving rewards, both Bayld & Item related. Some Assignments were poorly balanced like asking for Umbral Ooze when it was so much more costly than other items for its small reward, or running on foot from Adoulin all the way to a secluded Waypoint on the far side of Yorcia Weild. Admittedly some of these were addressed, but others weren't. To say you listen to people and they are happy, when they are yelling at you that they aren't happy, makes you look like your lying about reading it in the first place. That's why people aren't happy still.

Lastly, he says they will continue to implement the same kind of content as they are now, as is assumed by the word continue, when we already don't like most of it. So our complaining about the post to me, seems justified.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 06:36 AM

detlef

08-31-2013, 06:38 AM

It's actually a little depressing on Valefor. We're around 700 people max at NA primetime and there *should* be a lot of activity. But there isn't. People shout for 1-5 + Tojil runs but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of them shout for a long time and fail to clear the zone. Meanwhile, plasm farming runs that would probably have lower standards than a mega boss clear have pretty much died out. There are some NA WKR shouts, but I just described the 13 hour Yumcax and Achuka/Tchakka are also pretty bad right now due to low colonization rates. I think people just don't have anything to do right now.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 06:57 AM

Then again I see Matsui comes to XI, wants to do so many things but he can't. He has too many obstacles, limits that won't let him do what he wants without screwing up the gameplay.He wastes opportunities even when he breaks these limits though, he broke some of those limits, like for instance, he broke the limits of how many stats could be on a piece of gear, that's how they added all of those stats to Adoulin gear. The problem is, it was a wasted opportunity, he could have fixed so many inventory issues with this. He could have made pieces of gear with all of the stats we use on the same piece. Like for instance, he could have made a Hat with Fast Cast+10%, MAB+10, STR/DEX/VIT/AGI+10 INT/MND/CHR+15 CurePot+10% Haste+8% & Magic Accuracy +15. That would be a Hat which would fill over half my needs for RDM on a head piece... Instead, he implemented an item level system so he had to add a bunch of other stats like MEVA, EVA, and so on to it so it fit the level attached to the level, and at the same time outdated all other gear in the game basically without fixing the inventory issue, and instead, making it worse.

OmnysValefor

08-31-2013, 06:59 AM

Of that 700, an immeasurable number are afk. Literally immeasurable because there's no way to know.

It's pretty depressing.

Daemon I respect your bumps though I often disagree with you. I honestly feel like your opinion cannot be swayed.

My opinion on this can't be swayed by other players either. There's one group who can sway it, but they're not responding. The dev team should start talking to us.

Man, we're 45 pages into this and we still don't even have a nod.

If that's not a clue, I don't know how to be more clear.

My reply in his thank you thread, and all my replies following, were respectful but candid and that's over a week old. Clearly, they don't really listen. They just don't man.

If they really wanted to show us they listen, they would have picked a few threads in that letter and replied, not to some japanese translation bearing similarity to something we've said, but to something we've actually said. That thank you thread was the last thread that deserved a spotlight, given everything going on.

I'm idle in game while I'm playing XIV.

FrankReynolds

08-31-2013, 07:04 AM

Ok I don't disagree with you. I'm sure he is making a lot of money. But then again I've been to Japan. It's godly expensive to live there.

I just don't agree that when DEVs are showing their work through updates and have responded to posts like Matsui saying they do read and listen to the NA community.

He gave a response why are people complaining?

It was a canned response.

Saying you care what someone thinks is cool, but if you continue to do all the things that piss them off day in and day out, all it really says is that you want other people to think you care what that person thinks, when you actually don't.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 12:10 PM

Ok but do you guys honestly think making dratstic changes would keep people here regardless that FFXIV was released? To me it would be a waste of time to build a town if you know the hurricane is coming.

Hurricane has arrived. Damage has been done. Only makes sense to wait it out and see the results before making anymore major changes. I mean I already see so many posts describing the aftermath of FFXI since 14 launched.

To me I think after the first month, several players will come to the conclusion of either staying or coming back to FFXI. Then again some people might think its not for them.

Others might come back because they already dedicated many years and like this game better.

You should already know by now that if the DEVs did not give you what you are complaining about in the amount of time you are presenting your ideas and feedback, then maybe there are reasons that they don't tell you as to why they don't address them.

I just think its pretty crappy trying to be God without having the power to allow them to play the part.

PS2 sux! It's 11 year old technology with the ram less than 3-5 times lower than today's smart phones.

You can't install software or games without having the basic requirements first. Otherwise the game just won't work.

On the flip side...

DEVs cannot adjust and implement things that go past PS2 limits. I see some complaints asking DEVs to do this, do that as if they have unlimited abilities and no obstacles.

I've worked with bosses that require me to go through manager 1, then manager 2, then head manager 3 only to wait for the response to return to me after going through all 3.

People will jump on the next big thing regardless. No matter how much you complain and Shiz talk to death over how you think they should do their job better and how you would do the job better than them.

I've learned in life sometimes its easy to think this way but once you are the one doing the work, you realize its not as easy as people think it is.

So many people in congress sit and make multi million dollar salaries to say no when people ask for things like gay marriage and equality.

While they play God and vote to say YES and NO. They make these decisions for the overall community and not just for that one specific group that think its unfair.

While its easy to say yeah make Drugs legal, then maybe dealers won't smuggle it! No more arresting people!

It all sounds great yeah! But sometimes decisions have its reasons.

And that's how I see so many complaints on these forums. You demand things you think its unfair. But not considering looking at the glass from all angles but rather look at it from the side your staring at.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 12:23 PM

I wonder how much attention have the DEVs given all other communities they think its unfair that Matsui doesn't respond to them. He gave a response to one post titles Mr. Matsui and you all jump on it as if he was addressing everyone's concerns in the same topic.

When in reality he was letting everyone know how grateful he is that the OP thanked him for the work hes done and that yes the Community reps do read discussions and give him feedback on what we bring up.

Just you guys can't seem to grasp the fact that he was responding to the concern that people think he is ignoring the NA community.

Twice he has already explained that he does pay attention, he admitted he will try harder. But you are dealing with 1 person trying to make everyone around the world from all countries and communities happy.

I certainly wouldn't want to respond to anyone trashing me.

Give the guy a break gee.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 12:40 PM

DEV team has to analyze the amount of people vs the change they are going to make in order to come to conclusions how the results will happen.

If there was 3,000 people on the server before the release of 14, and now only 500. That's a change DEVs would be wasting time adjusting before 14 release.

That's my point. Watching and analyzing the community, interest, etc.

It's like how American Idol had a hard time judging comedians because without a crowd their comedy sucked. No crowd, no reaction.

They admitted that its hard to judge a person to see if they are funny when there is only 4 people in the room vs thousands.

DEVs and game companies don't just look at obstacles that happen at the moment. But also have to look at the obstacles over a period of time.

And how certain things like FFXIV will effect FFXI.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 12:51 PM

Ok but do you guys honestly think making dratstic changes would keep people here regardless that FFXIV was released? To me it would be a waste of time to build a town if you know the hurricane is coming.No, I do not, and this is the biggest reason why everything done in SoA has been a complete mistake. He made drastic changes which only made people leave, not stay. The hurricane only did more damage because he did those changes, had he kept things how they were and only improved upon them rather than doing it as he did, the game would be in better shape. I agree its stupid to build a town when a hurricane is coming that will possibly destroy it, but its equally as stupid to light it on fire and start burning it down before the hurricane arrives in the first place, which is akin to what he did.

That being said...

Hurricane has arrived. Damage has been done. Only makes sense to wait it out and see the results before making anymore major changes. I mean I already see so many posts describing the aftermath of FFXI since 14 launched.Since major changes were made already, there is no point in changing them back now I guess, but rather, they need to make it better. We see a slope going very badly, new skirmish gear is easier to get than Delve ever was, or will be, I can literally triple box Skirmish Yorcia if I want because a BLM, SCH, or RDM, with a decent nuking staff, can 1 shot every single mob. Delve you at least had challenging NMs, and the NQ mobs inside were 5~10 times harder than the Yorcia mobs, no joke, I nuke them for about 10~20% with a T4, while I 1shot every single Yorcia mob with a T4, the only difference in Yorcia's favor is the resist rates in Yorcia are a little more harsh, that's it. The gear from Yorcia is in many ways just as good or better than the gear from Delve, so much so I think most Delve gear, even at 15, is out of date. Especially when you get into the augments, where every DD piece can get +2 Double Attack, putting its overall stats above Delve easily for TPing & sometimes WSing, or nuking pieces with +20~30 MAB on them, making even T2s capable of 1shotting Yorcia mobs.

If they clean up this mess and create a more sensical path with the levels on gear actually following the power of the gear, it would do a lot of good. Changing it back wont do much, those who hated it already left for the most part. They need to clean it up a bit, make it better, and then make some things like WKs suck less. If they can do that, they can keep what players they have left potentially.

To me I think after the first month, several players will come to the conclusion of either staying or coming back to FFXI. Then again some people might think its not for them.By that same token, think of the people who will see what FFXI is like for a month without some of their friends around, who might leave for FFXIV, or leave SE MMOs completely. I know I did not lose a ton of friends to it, you are one, but not one of many. However I know that is not the same for all.

You should already know by now that if the DEVs did not give you what you are complaining about in the amount of time you are presenting your ideas and feedback, then maybe there are reasons that they don't tell you as to why they don't address them.In some cases, I understand this, in others, I do not. In the case of WKs, its angering many players, causing some to lose hope, others may even quit, even I am on the edge of quitting because I am tired of the BS in this game from things like WKs and SE's refusal to fix them. I also hate their refusal to answer questions, like my thread about unlocking Relic WSs, where I have no reply. Not a highly popular thread, but a single simple question which should be easy for them to answer.

I just think its pretty crappy trying to be God without having the power to allow them to play the part.Even in game design where you play god and create worlds, in my opinion, the best form of art there is, there are players, customers, and you need to cater to them as much as your own artistic values and ideals.

PS2 sux! It's 11 year old technology with the ram less than 3-5 times lower than today's smart phones.

You can't install software or games without having the basic requirements first. Otherwise the game just won't work.

On the flip side...

DEVs cannot adjust and implement things that go past PS2 limits. I see some complaints asking DEVs to do this, do that as if they have unlimited abilities and no obstacles.This is why many people ask them to simply cut the PS2 out of the equation. Adoulin can not be played on a non-JP PS2 for instance, why not remove PS2 from things completely? Honestly, if your without a PC which can run FFXI at this point but still can afford FFXI on your PS2, I think you need to save that money up, a PC will do much more for you. There are many ways around having to use a keyboard and mouse too, many people play on PC with controllers, and there are adaptors for PCs which work with PS2 controllers. In the end, another piece of feedback gone without being listened to, or at least, carried out.

I've learned in life sometimes its easy to think this way but once you are the one doing the work, you realize its not as easy as people think it is.I am sure they can not snap their finger to make it happen. At the same time, I know its their job to please the customers, not chase them away, their job involves working on the game, no matter how easy or hard it is. So in the end, I can not expect the impossible, but I also can not forgive ignorance toward certain things. I can not say how easy or hard it is personally to fix some of the larger issues in this game, but apparently, some of them were fixed by players faster than by the devs themselves, as shown by the excellent work of Windower and the team working on it, who provided many UI benefits for the PC gamers over the years long before SE's new UI was even a thought in their head, let alone its yet to be released still on the actual servers.

So many people in congress sit and make multi million dollar salaries to say no when people ask for things like gay marriage and equality.

While they play God and vote to say YES and NO. They make these decisions for the overall community and not just for that one specific group that think its unfair.Real life & this game are far from the same. A law effects many people in the real world and their real life, thought must go into that unlike anything in a game.

And that's how I see so many complaints on these forums. You demand things you think its unfair. But not considering looking at the glass from all angles but rather look at it from the side your staring at.I look only from the views I know, I do not pretend I know how things are from every perspective, I am not foolish enough to think I understand it all. At the same time, I use what I do know to form my posts and opinions on things, and then post my thoughts on it all. I assure you, I know their job is not snapping their fingers, its hard work, but I also know some of what we ask for can not possibly be as hard as they claim. UI adjustments can not be as hard as they claim, players have done it before, and continue to. Changes to drop rates can not be hard, yet, they change almost none of them, ever, at all. These are not hard tasks it seems, yet, nothing from them most of the time.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 12:52 PM

And no matter how many times you say Yumcax sucks, Hurkan sucks. Going by your word alone does not make DEV TEAM come to the conclusion that they need to follow your advice.

Sometimes numbers tell the story that words can't. Analyzing all the servers tell them the story than 5-10 people ranting over why they think it sucks and how you think people will rage quit.

If the numbers don't add up to what you are saying then like I said several times before.

DEVS are not stupid. If X amount of people are making parties doin the event and X amount of people are getting items then obviously numbers will paint the picture of how the event is better than you people make it out to be.

They have to analyze all servers, all communities, all feedback before they adjust things that's not murderously important. Why am I the only one that understands this???

OmnysValefor

08-31-2013, 12:52 PM

Ok but do you guys honestly think making dratstic changes would keep people here regardless that FFXIV was released? To me it would be a waste of time to build a town if you know the hurricane is coming.

Drastic changes sent people away. For at least my clique of friends, it wasn't how appealing FFXIV was, it was how unappealing FFXI had become.

There have always been people, in every mmo, who stay for their friends, just like people in real life endure crap so that they can stay near friends. You might dislike a friend's girlfriend, but you still go out to dinner with them, because you like him.

Hurricane has arrived. Damage has been done. Only makes sense to wait it out and see the results before making anymore major changes. I mean I already see so many posts describing the aftermath of FFXI since 14 launched.

No, believe it or not, the first thing you do is start cleaning up the mess, checking for survivors (the analogous parallel would be people still playing, I suppose), and rebuilding. When a disaster hits, you don't wait to see what else is going to happen.

You should already know by now that if the DEVs did not give you what you are complaining about in the amount of time you are presenting your ideas and feedback, then maybe there are reasons that they don't tell you as to why they don't address them.

Edit (forgot to reply to this): I don't doubt they have reasons, I don't understand why we can't know them. What reason is so grand that it justifies people unsubscribing as they are.

[...]

DEVs cannot adjust and implement things that go past PS2 limits. I see some complaints asking DEVs to do this, do that as if they have unlimited abilities and no obstacles.

If they dumped PS2, so that those players were no longer a concern--Some changes they can't make because of things in the deeper architecture of the game, it's just unrealistic. Other things, they simply don't change because the PS2 can't reliably do it without locking up.

...

And that's how I see so many complaints on these forums. You demand things you think its unfair. But not considering looking at the glass from all angles but rather look at it from the side your staring at.

I need you to tell me, since you have the perspective, about fixing the droprate from WKR. Again, they think getting a log after 5 hours is cute, or coy, but it simply isn't. Nobody laughs merrily with all their friends as they go list the log on the AH for 2k.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 12:58 PM

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:02 PM

Drastic changes sent people away. For at least my clique of friends, it wasn't how appealing FFXIV was, it was how unappealing FFXI had become.

There have always been people, in every mmo, who stay for their friends, just like people in real life endure crap so that they can stay near friends. You might dislike a friend's girlfriend, but you still go out to dinner with them, because you like him.

No, believe it or not, the first thing you do is start cleaning up the mess, checking for survivors (the analogous parallel would be people still playing, I suppose), and rebuilding. When a disaster hits, you don't wait to see what else is going to happen.

Edit (forgot to reply to this): I don't doubt they have reasons, I don't understand why we can't know them. What reason is so grand that it justifies people unsubscribing as they are.

If they dumped PS2, so that those players were no longer a concern--Some changes they can't make because of things in the deeper architecture of the game, it's just unrealistic. Other things, they simply don't change because the PS2 can't reliably do it without locking up.

I need you to tell me, since you have the perspective, about fixing the droprate from WKR. Again, they think getting a log after 5 hours is cute, or coy, but it simply isn't. Nobody laughs merrily with all their friends as they go list the log on the AH for 2k.

Again I never disagreed with you on drops. Yeah it sux. It's a simple setup they did in my eyes to score some time to further develop and add on to an expansion that seem like putting down a base first on a new house.

Did you ever consider that maybe they added such a simple setup to prevent people from "ONLY" spamming WR leaving all other parts of the expansion dead?

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 01:03 PM

And no matter how many times you say Yumcax sucks, Hurkan sucks. Going by your word alone does not make DEV TEAM come to the conclusion that they need to follow your advice.Take a tally of all players on this game, the results will speak for themselves. Look at how many people still do WKs, how many people stand there waiting for hours upon hours upon hours for more people to show. That would show them how awesome this content is.

If the numbers don't add up to what you are saying then like I said several times before.

DEVS are not stupid. If X amount of people are making parties doin the event and X amount of people are getting items then obviously numbers will paint the picture of how the event is better than you people make it out to be.How many people did VW? Was it a good event? Hell no, it was terrible for rewards, but people still did it for those rewards, people still did 2000 Qilin for a dagger, doesn't mean the event was awesome, it was still shit, but, it was popular shit. It would have been more popular if it were not as annoying I think, but who knows, maybe if they increased the drop rate and supply of the Empy upgrade items they would have crashed, rather than staying afloat on the thousands of Emps people had made.

They have to analyze all servers, all communities, all feedback before they adjust things that's not murderously important. Why am I the only one that understands this???Your not, but I have yet to see anyone praise WKs for being fun enjoyable content from any community who had done more than 3~5 of them, and joined at the infancy of a run rather than in the middle of one. You would be one of the people who I think in a way did praise them, or at least, one of them, shortly after my Hurkan run with you, but it was the only one I know of that you did, and at the same time, its was in the middle of it, not at the start. So an opinion with someone that holds that sort of track record with them can not speak for much since they lack the real experience of WKs that me and many others here have.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:08 PM

Take a tally of all players on this game, the results will speak for themselves. Look at how many people still do WKs, how many people stand there waiting for hours upon hours upon hours for more people to show. That would show them how awesome this content is.

How many people did VW? Was it a good event? Hell no, it was terrible for rewards, but people still did it for those rewards, people still did 2000 Qilin for a dagger, doesn't mean the event was awesome, it was still shit, but, it was popular shit. It would have been more popular if it were not as annoying I think, but who knows, maybe if they increased the drop rate and supply of the Empy upgrade items they would have crashed, rather than staying afloat on the thousands of Emps people had made.

Your not, but I have yet to see anyone praise WKs for being fun enjoyable content from any community who had done more than 3~5 of them, and joined at the infancy of a run rather than in the middle of one. You would be one of the people who I think in a way did praise them, or at least, one of them, shortly after my Hurkan run with you, but it was the only one I know of that you did, and at the same time, its was in the middle of it, not at the start. So an opinion with someone that holds that sort of track record with them can not speak for much since they lack the real experience of WKs that me and many others here have.

Sure the results show that now, but do you honestly think Matsui will leave it like that? You still don't seem to grasp what I've been saying this entire time. DEV teams need to put out content, watch how the reaction is, see from all servers and communities, observe results and figure out how to balance out the game.

They can't do this in 1 day.

You are only giving your observation from how you see it on Phoenix server. They have to see it from every server.

That's the point in trying to tell you. And yes it takes time. Not 1 day or 1 week. But see how the results are in a period of time and how interests change on a daily basis, during certain times of the day and the reaction from each community.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 01:08 PM

Yeah DJ I think they should get rid of PS2 support. But then again getting rid of PS2 support wouldn't be the only issue. Coding the game and all expansions to higher technology would be the same as Yoshi P recreating a while new game engine.

FFXI is 11 year old technology. Not today's technology. And when people want today's gaming demands would mean SE would have to bring the entire game to today's technology.

I can't imagine how many years and how many multimillion dollars and staff of programmers it would take to do this.No one said rebuild the game, remove some limits which are brought by PS2 like inventory, that's all, I cant believe it would involve going through every expansion and area in the game as well as everything else just to make it so our inventory can go to 150 instead of 80...

This is why FF7 was never revised.You apparently have no idea why FFVII was never redone. Anyone who has paid any attention to that game knows that they would make a ton of money off it, and it wouldn't be hard to redo. I mean really, they could literally do exactly the same thing with FFVII as Microsoft/343 did with Halo:CE, make the game exactly 100% the same, but with better graphics, and in the case of FFVII, yes, they should probably move it into full 3D, not the 3D style the original had. The reason I remember them giving for not having done a remake of FFVII is because they do not want to do it till they feel they have made a FF game which surpasses it.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 01:12 PM

Sure the results show that now, but do you honestly think Matsui will leave it like that? You still don't seem to grasp what I've been saying this entire time. DEV teams need to put out content, watch how the reaction is, see from all servers and communities, observe results and figure out how to balance out the game.

They can't do this in 1 day.

You are only giving your observation from how you see it on Phoenix server. They have to see it from every server.

That's the point in trying to tell you. And yes it takes time. Not 1 day or 1 week. But see how the results are in a period of time and how interests change on a daily basis, during certain times of the day and the reaction from each community.The original WKs were brought out with SoA, they died the same update Delve came out basically. That was what? 5 months ago? They have had time, they still have not adjusted those 3 to be easier, or faster, or the rewards better. So please, tell me, how long must we wait? It seems to me that by the time they update this, the gear will be of no use anyways, at which point, why should we care anymore?

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:14 PM

No one said rebuild the game, remove some limits which are brought by PS2 like inventory, that's all, I cant believe it would involve going through every expansion and area in the game as well as everything else just to make it so our inventory can go to 150 instead of 80...

This is what I'm talking about. It's because of PS2 they cannot go above 80. Unless you want to login with longer load times and a broken inventory. I play on PC and I remember a long time ago they made an adjustment only to shutdown for emergency maintenance because one day Macros and inventory was not appearing properly.

Just how I submitted a bug report a few weeks ago how my Rank level wasn't appearing on my Bokwus Robe or Soothsayer staff all because they added too many stats.

You apparently have no idea why FFVII was never redone. Anyone who has paid any attention to that game knows that they would make a ton of money off it, and it wouldn't be hard to redo. I mean really, they could literally do exactly the same thing with FFVII as Microsoft/343 did with Halo:CE, make the game exactly 100% the same, but with better graphics, and in the case of FFVII, yes, they should probably move it into full 3D, not the 3D style the original had. The reason I remember them giving for not having done a remake of FFVII is because they do not want to do it till they feel they have made a FF game which surpasses it.

Yeah they would make a lot of money if they redesigned the game correctly. But to do that would mean investing millions of dollars risking the chance of failure if they do it wrong.

They said they need another Hit series before making such a decision. I'd hate to invest millions only for it to flop like FFXIV did round 1.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:17 PM

The original WKs were brought out with SoA, they died the same update Delve came out basically. That was what? 5 months ago? They have had time, they still have not adjusted those 3 to be easier, or faster, or the rewards better. So please, tell me, how long must we wait? It seems to me that by the time they update this, the gear will be of no use anyways, at which point, why should we care anymore?

Sure they have time but even if they adjusted it before 14 release, they would have to reanalyze all servers, communities and the aftermath of 14 release to adjust it again.

My point is, you guys act like they will never make the game better. I'm telling you they will when the time is right. Obviously doing it before 14 would be a huge mistake.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:19 PM

FFXI Game engine is old >.> Diablo 3 took 10 years to release. They had to change the game engine several times. Which is how I see FFXI.

It's not just about PS2 limitations.

OmnysValefor

08-31-2013, 01:21 PM

My first bee took 30 minutes, my first hurcan took an hour. My first Tchakka and Achuka (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/34059-The-problem-with-Naakuals?) took 5 or 6.

If I had to base all my WK experience on my first bee, I'd call it a fun, engaging event. If I had to base it all on my first Hurkan, I'd tell SE to stop making mass events because their PoS2 strangled system can't keep up with that many players. If I had to base it on my first Achuka or Tchakka, I'd come here with a long critque of why it's bad design, which is exactly what I did because Achuka was a very unpleasant experience.

And yeah, what Demon said--noone is singing the praises of the dev team for WK. Even people who get their drops are still appalled at the design.

SE has the tools to poll us, and they know how to entice us. They don't have to take my word for it. The proof that they're ignoring this is that they've neither responded here or tried to get a more generalized opinion. You could be right, maybe we're the only ones talking about it because everyone else is stoked, but clearly SE doesn't think so, otherwise they'd ask.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:24 PM

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 01:26 PM

Since the community was going to shrink either way, not grow, it makes no sense to keep them just as painfully annoying, rather than at least making some changes to WKs, which might have kept more people here...

OmnysValefor

08-31-2013, 01:28 PM

Valefor is probably among the worst, because our active population is so low, but we're not the only server in this predicament. I've never actually seen a thread highlighting the greatness of WKR, though I do realize that content players have no reason to complain, but neither can unsubscribed players, or people waiting out their time while they play another mmo.

For too many players, myself included, the experience is so unpleasant that they just stop going.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 01:29 PM

FFXI is old, outdated, limited to PS2 limitations. Old game engine that's like an old Honda, but you are expecting it to put out like a BMW.

This community is old, just about everyone is at the inevitable question or is close to the enevitable question. It's like Tom and Jerry.

Each content they put out, they are facing a crowd that's bored, ready to speed through what they implement and complain there's nothing else to do because everyone has already passed all other content and is waiting for the DEV team to add more.

It's hard to please those who are at the end.

And most players are at the end.

And that's the big picture I'm telling you all to look at. Yeah WR takes so much effort. Eventually people will quit. If the DEVs do not budge, then eventually people will come to their senses that the spoil cookie train has come to a stop and start realizing "This is it" since the DEVs won't budge, might as well make due with what's there.

I see this game as a bar trying to bring clients in every day of the week, but people keep complaining they want more, more more. So the owner spoils everyone only to come to a point where they need to take a break and leave it to the people to decide if they really do love the place, then support it.

Because it gets to a point where too much money being invested in a short period of time is only hurting the establishment.

And it's only hurting the people trying to please you.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 02:01 PM

Yeah you are talking about your experience on Valefor. Now imagine DEV team reading feedback from every server. Not just yours.

Then again making it easier so everyone kills off WR means increase in power of the overall community only to make you and everyone speed past the current content faster than they can put it out.Oh, I see, so if 4 servers can take down WKs because they have a lot of people, but all of the other servers don't have enough people and take forever, those servers just have to deal with it, otherwise, it would be easy for the 4 good servers. That's bullshit logic and you know it. That's no justification for screwing multiple other servers full of players...

Daemon

08-31-2013, 02:06 PM

Oh, I see, so if 4 servers can take down WKs because they have a lot of people, but all of the other servers don't have enough people and take forever, those servers just have to deal with it, otherwise, it would be easy for the 4 good servers. That's bullshit logic and you know it. That's no justification for screwing multiple other servers full of players...

No I'm saying they need to analyze the aftermath of 14 release, see how many people will leave, how many will come back, observe how all servers are dealing with the hurricane before they can come to conclusions of making a change that doesn't require adjusting every few days.

You really want SE to shutdown the servers every single time they need to adjust it according to how you think?

You should know by now that updates are for this.

Look beyond the box and see it from the bigger picture and not from the moment things happen.

There are reasons why updates are mapped out. Otherwise shutdown the server every day because you and everyone else wants the DEVs to change something.

You are not the only person giving feedback.

NA community is not the only community DEVs listen to.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 02:12 PM

Daemon

08-31-2013, 02:17 PM

I also know that they did 2 updates since the release of Yumcax & Hurkan, neither of which addressed the issues with the content. They had one less than 2 weeks ago, it could have easily fixed the issues with WKs had they put in the time for it, but no, its the same as it was before hand except now even less people are doing it. They did multiple emergency maintenance for things the same week that the WKs came out in the first place. I think people would be ok with them performing another to fix the things so people could get the drops they want actually without super long fights or getting nothing for their time.

Because you are complaining about an event that I think the reward should motivate you enough not to complain about getting a pebble or ore.

Unless you think its best that WR be the only content relevant and everything else in SoA worthless. Only adding in better rewards to keep you interested tells me screw all other SoA content and make WR the only thing to play.

Which wouldn't make sense right now because who would ever do Delve and help others do Delve and other parts of SoA?

I'm looking at the event for what it is. Not for what I expect it to be.

This is not VW where you spam a boss 50 times a day and earn crap synthesis materials.

This is an HNM event just the same when back in the day HNM such as King Behemoth were the main focus of getting the best items. If you really want those items so bad then regardless of the challenge, do it.

A person can earn 75k Bayld in 1 hour. What's the problem? You can earn some of that Bayld back. No camping 24/7 for an entire week and no competition. And no killing each other over who gets a single drop.

What I see is you people are use to the VW spams that you expect WR to be the same.

And all I see these complaints sound to me like, I want the best but I hate the effort it takes to earn them.

If the effort is so hard then that should mean its because the item you want is not meant to be earned easily.

I still think WR is way better than doing hopeless quests like Mythic.

I'd rather spam Hurkan and Yumcax all day everyday than sit in town finding people to decide who will farm alexandrite a and how much I have to share to those who are not even working on Mythic.

Quests, Einherjar, ZNM, Missions, assault, Salvage, Besieged, and whatever other ridiculous requirements it takes to build one...

I hated VW for the fact people who got their items stopped playing and did not go back to help others get what they needed.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 02:37 PM

Funny thing is after 450+ comments to this thread, I probably could have done Hurkaan and Yumcax over 30 times and possibly have gotten a good drop by now.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 02:45 PM

FrankReynolds

08-31-2013, 04:16 PM

I also think once the DEVs analyze the aftermath of FFXIV release, they can sit down and figure out how to resolve issues like lack of people, server merges, and adjust all events according to the manpower that's left. Which again is why I said wait.

Waiting is the worst game ever. Lines at the DMV don't cost $12.95 a month and sadly are more populated.

Daemon

08-31-2013, 04:26 PM

Waiting is the worst game ever. Lines at the DMV don't cost $12.95 a month and sadly are more populated.

Yeah but then would you rather sit in town all day trying to figure out what to do, what content should you repeat "AFTER" you got everything you wanted from WR, Delve, Skirmish?

You are at the inevitable question like many other players which is "What happens when you are at the very end, have nothing else to do but what's currently available, and need more content to keep you happy?"

Then again what do you do when there's nothing else to do all because you completed everything?

At this point speeding up the game play by making it easier would only give you and everyone else a reason to quit or stop playing quicker. Unless you like to go back and repeat everything again.

FFXI already lost a lot of players at the moment. Giving a reason to lose more would be a horrible move if they did make it easier before the crash.

At least right now they can analyze the damage and make adjustments according to how the servers are now.

As I said. If you really love FFXI.

Support it.

Even if that means waiting for the DEV TEAM to resolve what's going on.

OmnysValefor

08-31-2013, 05:20 PM

Daemon

08-31-2013, 05:26 PM

For most of those players, they put them in the last quarter-mile of the race. A lot of players still need Salvage II, NNI, Limbus II, etc. I'm not giving SE any sympathy that their only solution for the lack of content situation they created is to make content that you have to endure rather than enjoy.

People have been supporting it for years, I've been supporting it. Criticism is support, in this case. I can support the game and simultaneously fault an aspect.

"Sir, you'd be a great presidential candidate. The people love your ideas, your personality, your passion for bipartisan compromise; you just need to quit picking your nose."

Lol! Yeah but the sad thing is NNI gear is becoming outdated with new Skirmish items.

The way I see it, Devs will need to add higher level content on all other parts of the game to make it relevant. Do you remember the time when you were low level, and you saw high levels passing by to go up to the higher level maps of the game? Back when you needed a raise and asked people on the same map or on the higher level of that area? People who were soloing that didnt mind helping you do a quest because they really didnt have anything that important to do?

I think the best strategy to bring back older content to life is to add new areas on top of old areas. Like extension.

They need to stop directing the crowd to only 1 area of the game and give everyone reasons to play all parts of the game. So many people wouldn't be sitting here thinking omg SoA is the only thing we have, I'm quitting.

Directing everyone to one area of the game only separates the community.

They need to add more stuff that

1. can be solod
2. takes time according to a persons pace
3. Interesting enough to go back and do it again
4. Rewarding enough not to lose interest and get pissed off angry and hopeless to the point this games makes you miserable and quit
5. Rewards that don't get outdated in the next few updates
6. Events that RMT won't massively swarm take over and MPK others and make you leave
7. Bosses that don't require 200 people to kill or 200 people waiting in line all day to pop in hopes that some ass won't jump ahead and pop before you
8. Release gear that doesn't serve only 1 reason to carry it for 1 task.

In order to even do all of that, ride out the storm, look over the damage and figure out how to repair and rebuild and work with what's left.

That's how I saw it before 14 release.

Gee I could go on all morning... I need sleep D:

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 09:04 PM

Because you are complaining about an event that I think the reward should motivate you enough not to complain about getting a pebble or ore.No matter what the reward is, standing in a zone, logged on my character, on this game, doing nothing but wiping over and over again when an idiot pulls a Panopt to kill something out of boredom and wipes the entire WK, for hours while I wait for the battle to really start, then fight for 3~6 hours, and then rewarding me with a pebble, is never, fucking, acceptable.

Unless you think its best that WR be the only content relevant and everything else in SoA worthless. Only adding in better rewards to keep you interested tells me screw all other SoA content and make WR the only thing to play.No, it means make WKs fucking matter to people, make it so we can go and do them without waiting 10 hours for shouts to pull enough people there to not wipe in 10 minutes and have Yumcax regen fully. They want you to get 50~100 people, 1/10~1/20th of the server online at the time for Phoenix, better or worse for others, to go to that area and fight that single NM, for hours, just so you might get a reward, but probably wont.

Which wouldn't make sense right now because who would ever do Delve and help others do Delve and other parts of SoA?News flash, while you were away, Skirmish gear shat on Delve gear big time, only Delve weapons were 100% better and those are boss weapons or boss crafted only. A great deal of the T1~3 non-accessory gear went bad because its harder to get than Skirmish gear, but Skirmish gear is better. And as I said, WKs do not need to be the only relevant, content, but they need to actually be fuckin relevant. why in the hell bother making new content if you out date it 2 months later in every fucking way!? Before SoA an event could live on for years, it could have a single amazing piece of gear and still be worth doing, but no, SoA has a max life expectancy of 2 updates, if it lives past 2 updates, I am fkin amazed by this point. WKs died before that 2 update mark, only took 1 update for them to really die, but 2 to die off completely now.

I'm looking at the event for what it is. Not for what I expect it to be.What it is, not what I expect... ok.

Its an event where I wait in zone for hours while people yell in Adoulin because I already went out & entered, thanks to no way to check the amount of people inside. I am trapped inside without the ability to leave, otherwise I lose all Bayld I sent to enter in the first place. Once the hours of waiting for people are over, hours where I had to be at my PC incase it started, because if I'm adk & I'm healing the tank, he could die without me, and wipe us all, causing our failure. But, once the hours of waiting are over and the battle begins, I then have to fight the NM for hours, on the same job, without the ability to change, creating what I would describe as a boring and repetitive experience. After this, I will either be killed, with the rest of the people in a wipe, where likely there will be 10 or so idiots who fail to understand what the word wipe means, even when told to let themselves die, so that we can recover faster. Or, I will be rewarded, my reward can consist of 1 reward from the NM, and 1 random craft item, however, if I already have the drop it picks for me, I will not get a NM drop. Instead, my single reward will be a random craft item, which ranges from 1~30k Gil in worth. Also, to do all of this, I have to ask the same thing be done by another 50 human beings as well.

Yeah, looking at what the event is, not what I wish it were, I would never touch that shit ever again...

This is not VW where you spam a boss 50 times a day and earn crap synthesis materials.No, I spam it 5 times a month and earn crap synthesis materials, your right, its not VW, its much worse.

This is an HNM event just the same when back in the day HNM such as King Behemoth were the main focus of getting the best items. If you really want those items so bad then regardless of the challenge, do it.Random drop rates, and randomness in general, is not a challenge, its the exact removal of skill based challenge. You want challenge, make a hard ass fight with a 100% drop rate that is nearly unbeatable, like, I don't know, Delve Bosses were meant to be, and it works well. You want repetitive garbage where people have to waste time killing the same exact NM they already proved themselves better than, over, and over, and over again, that's not challenge, that's a repetitive time sink which was made to hold you back by randomly generated numbers and pure fkin luck.

A person can earn 75k Bayld in 1 hour. What's the problem? You can earn some of that Bayld back. No camping 24/7 for an entire week and no competition. And no killing each other over who gets a single drop.

What I see is you people are use to the VW spams that you expect WR to be the same.No, I expect WKs to be rewarding unlike VW because the battle is much more difficult. No temps, no atmas, no 18 man alliance can kill them easily in 3~5 minutes. These take an army of competent people to take down, much larger than any VWNM could have dreamed, its brutally difficult, with moves that can hit upwards of 40 people with doom in a single attack, or deal 2k+ DMG to everyone within a large AoE radius. This is nothing like VW in terms of difficulty of the battle itself, the rewards should be far better than VW's ever were, and yet, I find myself back in the same situation, fighting a NM over and over again with no hope because I get nothing but logs.

And all I see these complaints sound to me like, I want the best but I hate the effort it takes to earn them.

If the effort is so hard then that should mean its because the item you want is not meant to be earned easily.Ya know what, here, your back, on a day you have no work, nothing to do in real life, let me know, you go out, you shout for a Yumcax. The rules of this are you are not allowed to stop until either real life calls upon you, wish should be the next day, or until 1 full Yumcax has died. I dare you to do this, start the shout at 4PM EST on the day of your choice when you are most available. I will join, I will go to the zone, and I will wait. You can then show me how this is awesome content and my complains are just whining. Till you do this, again I say, shut the hell up, because you have not done a bad WK, not close, so you have no idea what its like. As distasteful as it may seem, I would liken our views to be like someone who has been raped, stupid teens laughing saying its not that bad, it should be fun even, while anyone who has really experienced it knows its horrible, and no one else can comprehend it. You are being the teen in that instance, saying its not that bad, WKs are fine, we are just lazy, when you have never been through it really, you don't know.

So like I said, pick a day, let me know, I will monitor the battle from start to end, I will time it, starting from 4PM EST till the time of death, or time you give up. Once that's over, we will see how awesome this event is, and how lazy we are.

I still think WR is way better than doing hopeless quests like Mythic.

I'd rather spam Hurkan and Yumcax all day everyday than sit in town finding people to decide who will farm alexandrite a and how much I have to share to those who are not even working on Mythic.

Quests, Einherjar, ZNM, Missions, assault, Salvage, Besieged, and whatever other ridiculous requirements it takes to build one...Actually no, Mythics have trackable progression at least. Sure, they suck to make, but I know how far into hell I have gone and how far I have yet to go, its not just pure luck that maybe this Salvage run my .01% drop rate Mythic will drop from the boss at the end. Also, entrance is easy, you need not share your Alex you get, just go in with the logout method, the other 2 people keep their KI, and your in, solo it. If you cant solo it, then that sucks, but many people can, and I would argue at this point if you deserve a Mythic, you should be able to solo old Salvage. At least you don't need 50 others to enter with you otherwise the run is nearly impossible to make any progress on.

I hated VW for the fact people who got their items stopped playing and did not go back to help others get what they needed.In VW I constantly had friends who needed a Heka's body. I got mine my first run. Now if I was an asshole, I would never go help them, I mean, nothing else at Akvan ever mattered for me, so why bother. But, I'm a decent non-asshole guy, I went to help them most of the time if I was able to, meaning, I had stones, didn't have to buy them a ton, and I wasn't doing something else which was more needed at the time, like a restricted thing I couldn't do normally. Now... WKs are far worse. Even if I have items I need from the NM, I have to weigh my determination to get it vs the hours I know deep down it will likely take, regardless of helping my friends at all in the first place. Once I have all of my items, my friend would be asking me to basically come out and help them with a WK which would take me many hours to finish, so they can get a pebble most likely.

You see, with VW, I knew people probably wouldn't get their drop, but oh well, it was 30min for a run, not really out of my way cause of fast warps, and stones were easy & fast to get, and spawned in my inventory basically every few hours. WKs on the other hand I have to go farm Bayld, no matter if its from Skirmish or not, just so I can go help a friend for hours by fighting a NM which is a bit more out of my way than VW NMs, where they are just as unlikely to get the drop they want.

You hate VW, yet you keep saying this event isn't that bad for everything it does as bad as, or worse than VW.

Let me know what day you want to shout for Yumcax. Ill be waiting.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 09:05 PM

Funny thing is after 450+ comments to this thread, I probably could have done Hurkaan and Yumcax over 30 times and possibly have gotten a good drop by now.I play while I do this. And I doubt you could, after all, you would need others for it. If there were shouts going for the NMs, I would probably post here while I waited, which I often do when there are shouts & I waste my time by going.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 09:14 PM

I also think once the DEVs analyze the aftermath of FFXIV release, they can sit down and figure out how to resolve issues like lack of people, server merges, and adjust all events according to the manpower that's left. Which again is why I said wait.This game is always about waiting, never about actually doing something fun.

Join a Delve shout, wait to find a BRD for a hour.

Join a Tojil shout, wait to find a SCH for a hour who can stun.

Join a WK shout, wait to find an army of people who can PLD, WHM, SMN, or COR.

Join the FFXI Forums, wait to get issues resolved for a few years while the devs make more content which outdates their older dead content.

You know Skirmish actually could have been a decent event originally had they sat down and solved that event before moving forward with Delve? But they didn't, they moved forward while they tried to fix it originally, and we all saw what happened, it died. You know what happened to the original WKs? Well, they didn't fix them still, their dead. You know what keeps happening with SoA? They keep trying to push content forward, and every single time, they kill the old content before they really fix it and make it worth doing. This strategy, isn't working.

This problem isn't new, its been here since Delve came into existence, months ago, back in May, yet they have yet to address it at all. No, not KI prices, I mean the actual fight itself, and the reason people should do it. The closest they came was allowing us to pick 1 item after killing all of the NMs at the same level, which is nice, but also terrible. It gave a small tiny bit of life to old ones, a short burst, nothing more. I am tired of waiting for a fix that should have come and gone by now. Fixing it twice in a 4 month span is better than fixing it once in a 6 month span when your players suffer worse for the longer wait because you had 'better' things to do like adding a box in my garden to store my gil, which does absolutely nothing for 99% of players who don't have capped gil in the first place.

Demon6324236

08-31-2013, 09:27 PM

Yeah but then would you rather sit in town all day trying to figure out what to do, what content should you repeat "AFTER" you got everything you wanted from WR, Delve, Skirmish?I would rather do that than shout for multiple hours on end for a WK. Also, I might not have that bad an issue if they didn't outdate the entire rest of the game with Adoulin, and half of Adoulin didn't get outdated every single update.

You are at the inevitable question like many other players which is "What happens when you are at the very end, have nothing else to do but what's currently available, and need more content to keep you happy?"You can take things 1 of 3 ways. A, Fun enjoyable content which is repeatable if for nothing more than enjoyment after rewards are gotten, and the event itself is rewarding enough to keep you happy. B, Boring content you get through as fast as you can, getting all of the rewards involved as fast as possible so you never have to return to the event again. C, Annoying content you can not speed through because no matter how badly designed it is, you can not obtain your items from it due to luck.

A keeps people coming back to the event, like VW in a way did, it wasn't amazingly fun, and drop rates were bad, but it was not so horribly boring that I wanted to kill myself after every run. B is like Salvage, it got boring, and I just didn't want to go back after getting my stuff, I wanted to speed through it, and be done. C is like WK to me, I want to go in, get every win done, and never return because of how I hate it, and how bad it is, but couldn't/cant, because of luck..

Then again what do you do when there's nothing else to do all because you completed everything?Find a new job to work on, do nothing, quit, help friends with stuff they still need. Those are your basic choices.

At this point speeding up the game play by making it easier would only give you and everyone else a reason to quit or stop playing quicker. Unless you like to go back and repeat everything again.Yet, speeding up the game is exactly, 100%, what they did.

FFXI already lost a lot of players at the moment. Giving a reason to lose more would be a horrible move if they did make it easier before the crash.Yes, because everyone is currently staying for the oh so exciting 10 hour wait time at Yumcax with the repeat wipes and recoveries spread throughout that time.

At least right now they can analyze the damage and make adjustments according to how the servers are now.They could have done the exact thing 3 months ago with how the servers were 3 months ago. It could have prevented some people leaving because they could see SE is trying to make this game good still and working on the issues it has, instead, that never happened. I still don't expect it to happen any more or less now that more people left, and people from the FFXI team might be pulled to FFXIV thanks to the fact its doing well right now and has so many people on it while FFXI has less people than before, and thus, less money incoming to SE.

As I said. If you really love FFXI.

Support it.

Even if that means waiting for the DEV TEAM to resolve what's going on.I support FFXI, I don't support the poor choices made by the Dev team and lack of fixes the game receives to the more important issues. There is a large difference in my opinion between supporting a game and supporting the team of people driving it into the ground.

FrankReynolds

09-01-2013, 01:06 AM

Yeah but then would you rather sit in town all day trying to figure out what to do, what content should you repeat "AFTER" you got everything you wanted from WR, Delve, Skirmish?

I already sit in town waiting, trying to figure out what to do. I'll take being bored because I've done it all over being bored because I'm waiting for the devs to do something any time.

You are at the inevitable question like many other players which is "What happens when you are at the very end, have nothing else to do but what's currently available, and need more content to keep you happy?"

No, I'm not.

Then again what do you do when there's nothing else to do all because you completed everything?

That will probably never happen. No one runs out of things to do. They run out of things they want to do. I did past events ad naseum because they were fun and entertaining. They had a low bar of entry and a fairly high success rate. They had rewards that were worth while and generally obtainable.

Spending hours farming a pop item for a fight that takes ??? to get started and 3-??? hours to complete with a hundred people on servers, many of which often have less than 1,000 people to begin with, is not a fun or viable form of entertainment.

Unless you like to go back and repeat everything again.

Well since the current option is making everything suck so that I have to go back and complete it again... and again... and again... I don't really see how me having to do that with my cool items is any worse.

There comes a point where people just choose not to do it at all and the outcome is the same. That point is a speck on the rear view mirror.

FFXI already lost a lot of players at the moment. Giving a reason to lose more would be a horrible move if they did make it easier before the crash.

Yes, if what you're doing isn't working, just keep doing it over and over and over. Never divert from the path to insanity.

At least right now they can analyze the damage and make adjustments according to how the servers are now.

Yeah... see, they were actually supposed to do that before everyone quit.

As I said. If you really love FFXI.

Support it.

Even if that means waiting for the DEV TEAM to resolve what's going on.

I support it with my paycheck. I Support it with valuable feedback that is mostly ignored. That is love on a one way street.

OmnysValefor

09-01-2013, 02:11 AM

they were actually supposed to do that before everyone quit.

they were actually supposed to do that before everyone quit.

they were actually supposed to do that before everyone quit.

Such a shame.

Daemon

09-01-2013, 03:19 AM

Since day 1 FFXI was released, it was easy to find groups (AT the very beginning of the game) to do stuff because everyone was at the same level or close, people did not have billions of things to do or have millions of things on the "I want list."

Most people were at the same point of "I dunno the game lets explore together, lets go do whatever because I don't have anything major to do."

As you reach higher level, gaps begin. Same as if you attend school and if a person fails 1 grade, gets held back while others progress pass you, interests change, and people who move forward have different priorities.

And as priorities between others begin to change, the further it becomes harder to find people with the same interest as you. And because so much content is out, too many things give everyone reasons not to have the same interests.

This is why game programming becomes challenging because on the same note, DEVs have to implement various reasons to keep those at different levels busy with content according to ones progress.

You guys talk about how it takes forever to do stuff, its hard to get things going because either you can't find people who are interested to do the same thing as you or do stuff that doesn't take several hours because of the difficulty level.

And that's the problem with dealing with high levels VS low levels.

At end game, you've either done stuff a million times, or hate doing stuff that takes up your entire day. But in reality according to "Balance" DEVs have to face factors such as players level, power of the player, power of a group, power of the overall community, time factor, gaps, amount of players, progress based on new player, old players, general overall community.

When dealing with higher level player, there's no choice but to make content harder, but not all content will have the same difficulty.then again DEVs have to figure out difficulty level based on either make things easy but then face the issue of players speeding past the event too fast, make things hard, people complain the event is hopeless, or make it easy but make the event longer in fights so people don't speed past and kill the content quickly.

Difference changes based on the amount of people that can do the same event.

The thing is, Wilds Keeper Rieves I can tell DEVs made it easy, but made these fights longer because they are wanting several players on the server to participate and not just a certain few camp all day or spend massive amounts of time getting a group of friends to walk over only to find that the boss died before or as they approached it.

Because this event does not limit you to 18 man party, it only makes sense to give the boss massive of amounts of HP so the boss won't die too fast.

For those who arrive early, the truth is you are helping the entire server by holding the boss for everyone else to have an equal chance and an equal opportunity to participate giving everyone time to show up and help. Also allowing anyone to play any job they want.

Its because this event welcomes more than 18 people, you don't have to sit down and specifically invite certain jobs, nor leave out people whose jobs you don't need.

And this is how I see WR right now.

Which solves the issue many others were complaining. "I can't find groups because people only invite WHM, BRDs, Dark knights, Sach paladin etc."

As I said balance meant to solve certain issues brings other effects along with it. And DEVs are constantly playing a game of Tug-O-War.

I've already listed all of the other positives such as no more camping 24/7 an entire week for 1 boss to pop, competition over who claims boss, competition over items etc.

For every positive, always comes negatives.

This event was not made based on a single players benefit, but for the benefit of all the people around you participating as a whole.

As for horrible drop rate? Well this solves the issue of killing the event off too fast, giving the entire community power to speed through content quickly, and "I got my item, I refuse to play again nor go back and help others."

RMT can't get together 18 people and obtain items that help them farm Gil faster.

And gives DEV TEAM time to work on updates and other content so you can have new things to do.

Demon6324236

09-01-2013, 04:45 AM

The thing is, Wilds Keeper Rieves I can tell DEVs made it easy, but made these fights longer because they are wanting several players on the server to participate and not just a certain few camp all day or spend massive amounts of time getting a group of friends to walk over only to find that the boss died before or as they approached it.

Because this event does not limit you to 18 man party, it only makes sense to give the boss massive of amounts of HP so the boss won't die too fast.

For those who arrive early, the truth is you are helping the entire server by holding the boss for everyone else to have an equal chance and an equal opportunity to participate giving everyone time to show up and help. Also allowing anyone to play any job they want.

Its because this event welcomes more than 18 people, you don't have to sit down and specifically invite certain jobs, nor leave out people whose jobs you don't need.

And this is how I see WR right now.This isn't true though, WKs are not easy to take down without specific jobs, and they take forever unlike you have large & wide participation from the server. If I go on WAR, I am worthless, I can kill adds, but if I get on the WKNM itself I will feed it TP, it will spam special attacks, and the PLD holding it will be killed, as a result, I will have triggered a wipe. That's not even counting the fact that the DT on the NMs makes my DMG less than that of a COR spamming Quick Draw if low enough, and that the NM will rape my WAR in 5 seconds of me having engaged it because of how overpowering they are. Giving the NMs such high stats is fine for the first 2 weeks, when everyone is doing it, because everyone is doing it, but as soon as participation drops a little, the fight goes from easily winnable to completely impossible. What once had 100~200 people attending each fight now has 10~20 people attending, and even when you win, most are 3~5 hours long with at most 50~60 people at best.

Which solves the issue many others were complaining. I can't find groups because people only invite WHM, BRDs, Dark knights, Sach paladin etc.It only solves the problem in the fact you can not exclude people via choice, rather, they can come on those jobs and be just as worthless. I can come on a job like NIN and I will be no help at all, I can not effectively kill adds, I can not enfeeble worth a damn, and I can not truly help out in the battle. At the same time, I can come NIN.

Also, not being able to find groups is worse. I cant find a Delve group who will take me on RDM as a DD very often, which sucks for me, but I can find a Delve group that will take me on WAR. On the other hand, no matter what job I go on, I cant find a group of 50 people willing to fight a WK with me, which is a much larger issue.

As for horrible drop rate? Well this solves the issue of killing the event off too fast, giving the entire community power to speed through content quickly, and "I got my item, I refuse to play again nor go back and help others."Your right, except your completely wrong. It solves nothing, it makes it worse. As I explained before, if you make drops that horrible, no one does it again, no one will go help friends with it. I would help with Akvan, low chance of my friend getting the item, but takes no time. I would never help a friend with Yumcax. Making an event like this is 10 times worse than 'I got what I want and wont go back' because at least normally, you only need 3~18 people to do something. If I cant find a friend who needs Salvage gear, I can go find some others who do, and we can do it with 3 people. Not, if I want to do Yumcax, and only 20 people on my server still need items from it, I can go take down Yumcax, he will smash us, even if we could put up a proper fight, your looking at a 20 hour uphill battle against a NM for what would likely be a log or pebble.

RMT can't get together 18 people and obtain items that help them farm Gil faster.So now were going to play the 'it hurts RMTs, even if it hurts real players worse' thing...

Daemon

09-01-2013, 06:34 AM

This isn't true though, WKs are not easy to take down without specific jobs, and they take forever unlike you have large & wide participation from the server. If I go on WAR, I am worthless, I can kill adds, but if I get on the WKNM itself I will feed it TP, it will spam special attacks, and the PLD holding it will be killed, as a result, I will have triggered a wipe. That's not even counting the fact that the DT on the NMs makes my DMG less than that of a COR spamming Quick Draw if low enough, and that the NM will rape my WAR in 5 seconds of me having engaged it because of how overpowering they are. Giving the NMs such high stats is fine for the first 2 weeks, when everyone is doing it, because everyone is doing it, but as soon as participation drops a little, the fight goes from easily winnable to completely impossible. What once had 100~200 people attending each fight now has 10~20 people attending, and even when you win, most are 3~5 hours long with at most 50~60 people at best.

It only solves the problem in the fact you can not exclude people via choice, rather, they can come on those jobs and be just as worthless. I can come on a job like NIN and I will be no help at all, I can not effectively kill adds, I can not enfeeble worth a damn, and I can not truly help out in the battle. At the same time, I can come NIN.

Also, not being able to find groups is worse. I cant find a Delve group who will take me on RDM as a DD very often, which sucks for me, but I can find a Delve group that will take me on WAR. On the other hand, no matter what job I go on, I cant find a group of 50 people willing to fight a WK with me, which is a much larger issue.

Your right, except your completely wrong. It solves nothing, it makes it worse. As I explained before, if you make drops that horrible, no one does it again, no one will go help friends with it. I would help with Akvan, low chance of my friend getting the item, but takes no time. I would never help a friend with Yumcax. Making an event like this is 10 times worse than 'I got what I want and wont go back' because at least normally, you only need 3~18 people to do something. If I cant find a friend who needs Salvage gear, I can go find some others who do, and we can do it with 3 people. Not, if I want to do Yumcax, and only 20 people on my server still need items from it, I can go take down Yumcax, he will smash us, even if we could put up a proper fight, your looking at a 20 hour uphill battle against a NM for what would likely be a log or pebble.

So now were going to play the 'it hurts RMTs, even if it hurts real players worse' thing...

So what do you propose is better? So far you only go against everything I say and never address the positives I've stated.

Would it be best to make WR the same as VW? Spam kill the same boss 50 times a day?

And what about 1 pop once a week real time? Are you willing to camp or ask people to camp it for you until it pops?

How about item distribution? Would you like to decide out of 50+ people who gets to lot the drops if the rare items even drop to begin with? If alliance is only strict to 18 people, who do you choose gets to lot and who gets left out?

Is it competition best to fight over claim and items?

Would it be best to leave out every job except the ones that matter to alliance leaders?

Would it best to have the proc system again?

Enlighten me on your idea of what you think is the best solution for everybody on the entire server and not just the group of interest.

People complain about elitism. I want to hear your solution that avoids that.

Daemon

09-01-2013, 06:59 AM

Giving the NMs such high stats is fine for the first 2 weeks, when everyone is doing it, because everyone is doing it, but as soon as participation drops a little, the fight goes from easily winnable to completely impossible.

You just repeated what I stated earlier but from a different angle of the glass.

When people get what they want, people will stop playing the event making it harder for others to get a group together.

It only solves the problem in the fact you can not exclude people via choice, rather, they can come on those jobs and be just as worthless. I can come on a job like NIN and I will be no help at all, I can not effectively kill adds, I can not enfeeble worth a damn, and I can not truly help out in the battle. At the same time, I can come NIN.

No but you could tank adds, raise TP off adds and WS off boss. Unless you think its a great idea just to attack boss the entire time and make it TP faster.

Also, not being able to find groups is worse. I cant find a Delve group who will take me on RDM as a DD very often, which sucks for me, but I can find a Delve group that will take me on WAR. On the other hand, no matter what job I go on, I cant find a group of 50 people willing to fight a WK with me, which is a much larger issue.

Because you expect WR to be the same as Delve. When Delve is built to be based on time limit of the event.

if you make drops that horrible, no one does it again, no one will go help friends with it. I would help with Akvan, low chance of my friend getting the item, but takes no time. I would never help a friend with Yumcax. Making an event like this is 10 times worse than 'I got what I want and wont go back' because at least normally, you only need 3~18 people to do something. If I cant find a friend who needs Salvage gear, I can go find some others who do, and we can do it with 3 people. Not, if I want to do Yumcax, and only 20 people on my server still need items from it, I can go take down Yumcax, he will smash us, even if we could put up a proper fight, your looking at a 20 hour uphill battle against a NM for what would likely be a log or pebble.

You are comparing these events as if the power of these items are all the same.

I look at WR items as if they are REM. Not salvage, VW, and any other common event.

Instead of giving you endless quests, missions, daily limits, they give you a boss.

DJ I know you are endgame, very skilled and not everyone plays as good as you. But the fault isn't only the event the DEVs put out. It's the fault of speed leveling to 99 without learning real teamwork and strategy only for people to show up and only know how to do what they've done in Abyssea throughout the entire leveling process, engage, Zerg, WS, kill.

I know you are better than that and everything does lie within the skill of the people you are playing with.

You can't blame the DEVs for this. It's the people's job to learn how to lead, organize, and work as a team.

The problem I see with NA community is there's too many "I cants, I won't, I refuse, I'm lazy."

Unorganized and frustrated because people don't listen to each other, pay attention, take the initiative to step up and work out a good strategy and open their minds to trying something else than what people only know that works, unless doing events that are setup with robotic repeat mechanics like VW and Abyssea.

And because people haven't played as long as you or play as good as you, or have the same gear and skills, experience, you are here complaining over an event that you have a hard time succeeding to get what you want.

When the fault isn't the event by itself because when a good group of skilled players get together, these bosses go down in 2 hours or less depending on the manpower available.

And because you don't have any control to make these events work perfect to your desire, this is why you are angry pissed off and ready to rant.

Demon6324236

09-01-2013, 07:23 AM

So what do you propose is better? So far you only go against everything I say and never address the positives I've stated.Because I have no problem with some of the positives, other things you try to make sound like they are positives are not.

Would it be best to make WR the same as VW? Spam kill the same boss 50 times a day?No, simply make it an event which does not require 50~100 people to win. If people kill it easy the first week then awesome, but at least it will have longevity without being an annoying pain in the ass. You act, or rather, you and SE act, like the only way to make an event last more than 10 minutes is to either make the drops work stupidly. With VW it was super low drops but easy to spam, with WKs its higher drops but takes hours upon hours to do. These are stupid systems. If you want an event to have longevity you need to make the event fun, entertaining, difficult, winnable, fair, and rewarding.

VW was fun, entertaining, and winnable. It was not fair, rewarding, or difficult. Most NMs introduced through VW had stupidly over powered attacks like Harpies, or Naraka, even worse, Gullu, had they been properly balanced, it would be fair, rewards needed changed to be at higher rates, and temps could have been simply removed as procs alone should have been enough to make it strategic to bring some jobs over others, but it should never have been required to proc or die.

WKs are difficult, winnable, and mostly rewarding. Tweeks that need to be made to make it a good event are changing the reward system so you always get something of value, be it a boss drop or not, something of value should be gotten so your time was not wasted. To make it fair, lets remove giant AoE doom from Yumcax, make the adds repop a little slower so there is more a point to killing them, and remove party/alliance based hate. To make it fun, simply allow people to actually get evaluations on any job, fix that, because some jobs like PLD which are required for this, get barely anything for coming in terms of Bayld.

These changes would fix these events and allow them to meet my criteria for a good event which would last a while. People come back to something fun and rewarding when the rewards can continue, if the only thing of value wasn't the R/EX drops, it would be better in many ways, but that's not the case. I do not mean load everyone up with the same rare craft material either. Thokcha Ingots are at 2k, they were once at something like 70k+, but Skirmish spams them at you like no tomorrow, so its worth near nothing now. Add a verity of good items like that which are spread out, and can keep some value, and things will be fine. People will come back for more.

And what about 1 pop once a week real time? Are you willing to camp or ask people to camp it for you until it pops?This was a flawed game mechanic since the time it was thought of, and should never return. But saying that at least its not like that, is like me saying that Road to Hell isn't as bad as Big Rigs, just because the second worst thing I have ever heard of isn't the worst thing, doesn't mean its magically decent in any way, it just means I have seen worse. Much like what you are talking about. Old style HNMs, those were horrible, but WKs, are horrible too, just not as much so.

How about item distribution? Would you like to decide out of 50+ people who gets to lot the drops if the rare items even drop to begin with? If alliance is only strict to 18 people, who do you choose gets to lot and who gets left out?No, I like how drops work in VW & WKs to an extent. Personally my favorite item system comes from Skirmish. Items drop to the pool and everyone gets their own items, if you are unlucky and can not get it from the pool you can obtain items, in this case, wings, to trade in for the drop of your choice. In the end, you always get what you want, but you can get it either way, and everyone gets something, no one is screwed.

Would it be best to leave out every job except the ones that matter to alliance leaders?It would be best to make every job have a use in content, but they hardly every do job fixes which are desperately needed to begin with.

Would it best to have the proc system again?At least that made every job relevant. I do not want it to be forced, and I do not want it to be wide spread & temp rewarding, but in all honesty procs were never a bad thing to me. The problem is with procs in VW they were required, and in Aby they were drop enhancing, so we never used procs for procs really, we used procs for Fanatics because we would get ass raped without it, and for enhanced drop rates. If they were procs only for the sake of giving a mob amnesia or silence when it is otherwise impossible/near impossible, yes, I would like them back, so long as they are done well, not every WS being a possible proc, or every spell, or every JA.

Enlighten me on your idea of what you think is the best solution for everybody on the entire server and not just the group of interest.Making an event possible with few or no other people if you are good enough, while also making it realistic for people to be able to do this. Stupid restrictions on things like Salvage, Assaults, or other things of the sort are only holding players back from doing things they want. At the same time, needing an alliance of people to do things like Plasm Farm(I know super people can do it with 6, but those who need it most, cant) is foolish, there should be a way to farm Plasm without any form of NMs in the area with you. A fracture in Cirdas Caverns itself perhaps with no NMs, only a bunch of smaller mobs, their area bonus could be random between the other areas, which is currently Ice Spikes, Attack, and EVA. Make the mobs drop the same amount of Plasm, make them a bit weaker, and everyone could do it. Make WKs weaker so less people are capable of fighting them still, since popularity dies fast on new events it also means that the armies required to take down something like a WK will also die down fast, and leave the content nearly unbeatable as a result.

People complain about elitism. I want to hear your solution that avoids that.There is no way to change people, or those who control the majority of groups. You see people complain all the time about people shouting for Oat MNKs now just like RME MNKs would have been the choice before. You can not avoid this, no matter what you do, and it will never change. The only way you can try to help others in your position get away from this kind of thing is by making more open minded groups yourself, who will take anyone. The problem is, most wont do it, and even those who do, often end up resorting to the exact thing they are against. I know a few MNKs who are Rigor MNKs and want Oats, all shouts for MNKs on our server for Tojil are Oat MNKs only, so what do the MNKs I know do? They either get in via a friend like me, or they make their own, but when they make their own, I have noticed, they ask for only Oat MNKs too. So really, only the people effected by 'elitism' can help those who are effected by it, by being open minded in the making of their own groups.

Nothing SE does will change this unless they put everyone else on even ground, in every possible way. If they gave out Oats to every MNK tomorrow, it would be only Otronif MNKs, if everyone had Otronif, it would be only Otronif Oat MNKs with specific merits, everyone had that, something else would be found to become a requirement. It always happens, and no one besides those complaining can change it, because nothing SE does system wise will change the way the community itself truly thinks and acts.

Demon6324236

09-01-2013, 07:45 AM

When people get what they want, people will stop playing the event making it harder for others to get a group together.The exact reason why WKs need to be weakened, and shortened. I would be much more willing to help a friend with something that takes 5 minutes rather than 5 hours. That is obvious. All making the battle take so long like WKs do does, is make no one ever want to return no matter what.

No but you could tank adds, raise TP off adds and WS off boss. Unless you think its a great idea just to attack boss the entire time and make it TP faster.No, but the point is, I can come a job like NIN which is no help, and I will be no help, or I can come a job which is helpful, and help. I wouldn't come as a DD to a WK for that very reason, never have, never will, I stick to RDM and healing PLDs which helps the overall battle itself progress because the tank isn't dead. That's a job that helps a lot, and its effective for Bayld thankfully.

Because you expect WR to be the same as Delve. When Delve is built to be based on time limit of the event.You missed the point of everything I said there. If I want to join a Delve shout I might not get in on RDM like I want, but I can get in. If I want to join a WK and I cant gather enough people to do the WK, I cant do it no matter what jobs I have, how well geared, or how badly I want to do it.

You are comparing these events as if the power of these items are all the same.

I look at WR items as if they are REM. Not salvage, VW, and any other common event.

Instead of giving you endless quests, missions, daily limits, they give you a boss.I do not compare them as though they are the same exact power as other items, I know they are stronger than others otherwise my want to have them would be non-existent as it almost is anyways. They are not RME. The point of everything I said right there is that the battles take so many people and so long to kill that unlike an event like VW, where you could ask friends to help and they might do it, WKs are unreasonable to ask for help with. You pointed out if everyone got their items, no one would help, but my point is, if I have my items or not, WKs are stupid time taking, I wont help either fkin way, if they were shorter, that might change, but its not, and apparently, you don't think they should be different.

But the fault isn't only the event the DEVs put out. It's the fault of speed leveling to 99 without learning real teamwork and strategy only for people to show up and only know how to do what they've done in Abyssea throughout the entire leveling process, engage, Zerg, WS, kill.This has nothing to do with WKs, at all. No matter how I level, or you level, or the guy who just started yesterday levels, nothing in leveling prepares you for a large NM which you are fighting with 50+ other people at the same time who can instantly use 1 TP move and either A, kill everyone anywhere near him by doing 3k+ DMG, or B, hit everyone with a 10 count doom effect. Nothing in leveling will prepare you for that. Nothing in leveling will tell you to go build TP on weak mobs and then run in to WS the big mob you have been fighting for 2 hours either. Nothing in leveling will prepare you for a COR and SMN being the only viable source of DMG because the rate of the area is to low and the DT is to high so you need them to take down a very powerful regen effect put up by a specific deadly TP move. Nothing in leveling has anything to do with anything to do with WKs, period.

I know you are better than that and everything does lie within the skill of the people you are playing with.

You can't blame the DEVs for this. It's the people's job to learn how to lead, organize, and work as a team.

The problem I see with NA community is there's too many "I cants, I won't, I refuse, I'm lazy."

Unorganized and frustrated because people don't listen to each other, pay attention, take the initiative to step up and work out a good strategy and open their minds to trying something else than what people only know that works, unless doing events that are setup with robotic repeat mechanics like VW and Abyssea.Yes, I know a lot of English players are ignorant lazy bastards but guess what, an event like WKs which require you to work with even more of these kinds of people by force is not good especially because of that very reason. If I have no choice but to work with a guy who thinks he can Twilight zombie Yumcax, and he does nothing but raise up and die over and over every 10 seconds for 3 hour, guess what, me and the rest of the people around are screwed because of this ignorant fool.

And because people haven't played as long as you or play as good as you, or have the same gear and skills, experience, you are here complaining over an event that you have a hard time succeeding to get what you want.

When the fault isn't the event because when a good group of skilled players get together, these bosses go down in 2 hours or less depending on the manpower available.You show me an alliance of people killing a Yumcax in less than 3 hours. Please, do it, because till I see that shit, I will never, ever, believe that its even close to possible.

And because you don't have any control to make these events work perfect to your desire, this is why you are angry pissed off and ready to rant.No, I have no way to make them not completely suck. I don't want them to be perfect, I just want them to not suck, yet my feedback on how to not suck has yet to be implemented, and thus, yes, I rant, but not exactly for the reason you gave. My ranting is brought upon by the fact you defend them on this subject at nearly every turn, which is stupid, because they do not deserve the defense, I will defend them and they will be worthy of it the exact moment they can make content properly which does not actually make me want to quit every time I participate in it, which is the case with WKs. My last 2 WKs I have done I was seconds away from deleting my account after, and never returning, because it is sickening to me how little they listen on the most important of issues with this game and it being enjoyable for me and others like me, and at the same time how they can think events like WKs can be enjoyable.

That is why I rant.

Daemon

09-01-2013, 08:05 AM

Because I have no problem with some of the positives, other things you try to make sound like they are positives are not.

No, simply make it an event which does not require 50~100 people to win. If people kill it easy the first week then awesome, but at least it will have longevity without being an annoying pain in the ass. You act, or rather, you and SE act, like the only way to make an event last more than 10 minutes is to either make the drops work stupidly. With VW it was super low drops but easy to spam, with WKs its higher drops but takes hours upon hours to do. These are stupid systems. If you want an event to have longevity you need to make the event fun, entertaining, difficult, winnable, fair, and rewarding.

No matter how they adjust it. It will never be 100% fair. Look at VW? Random numbers or "Luck" as you call it will never be fair. Unless they bring the event back to 18 alliance as you want it to be, then DEVs would have to go back old obstacles. They would only be pulling the rope to the other side.

Make boss easy for less people would only mean increase boss kills for lower drop rate so items don't overflate the community. Which means back to everyone complaining why no one invites the job I want to play??

Then they would have to add proc system to FORCE you to invite other jobs.

VW was fun, entertaining, and winnable. It was not fair, rewarding, or difficult. Most NMs introduced through VW had stupidly over powered attacks like Harpies, or Naraka, even worse, Gullu, had they been properly balanced, it would be fair, rewards needed changed to be at higher rates, and temps could have been simply removed as procs alone should have been enough to make it strategic to bring some jobs over others, but it should never have been required to proc or die.

You want WR to be VW??

WKs are difficult, winnable, and mostly rewarding. Tweeks that need to be made to make it a good event are changing the reward system so you always get something of value, be it a boss drop or not, something of value should be gotten so your time was not wasted. To make it fair, lets remove giant AoE doom from Yumcax, make the adds repop a little slower so there is more a point to killing them, and remove party/alliance based hate. To make it fun, simply allow people to actually get evaluations on any job, fix that, because some jobs like PLD which are required for this, get barely anything for coming in terms of Bayld.

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm sure they will eventually adjust the event over time. I saw it happen in previous content. But the difference is, I wasn't on the forums 24/7 hounding the DEV TEAM to do it.

And to me, you are wasting your breathe complaining over something I see will be eventually sorted out later. If the DEVs didn't do it at the moment, its because they have reasons we don't know about.

Old style HNMs, those were horrible, but WKs, are horrible too, just not as much so.

And what you see in WR are the DEVs way of making HNM event better. It's just hard to please people at ilvl 120 than level 70-75. Bigger difference, bigger demands, and less patience at this point of the game.

No, I like how drops work in VW & WKs to an extent. Personally my favorite item system comes from Skirmish. Items drop to the pool and everyone gets their own items, if you are unlucky and can not get it from the pool you can obtain items, in this case, wings, to trade in for the drop of your choice. In the end, you always get what you want, but you can get it either way, and everyone gets something, no one is screwed.

Because you can see who gets rare. I think discreet is better so people don't get jealous or disappointed they saw someone get all the good drops. Or the good drops more than once. Only for everyone to see that person bail after getting their item.

It would be best to make every job have a use in content, but they hardly every do job fixes which are desperately needed to begin with.

Which is important to you right now? Job fixes? Or adding in Skirmish, WR items, Delve items, New craft weapons, new bosses, additional content? I mean is it really that desperately urgent?

At least that made every job relevant. I do not want it to be forced, and I do not want it to be wide spread & temp rewarding, but in all honesty procs were never a bad thing to me. The problem is with procs in VW they were required, and in Aby they were drop enhancing, so we never used procs for procs really, we used procs for Fanatics because we would get ass raped without it, and for enhanced drop rates. If they were procs only for the sake of giving a mob amnesia or silence when it is otherwise impossible/near impossible, yes, I would like them back, so long as they are done well, not every WS being a possible proc, or every spell, or every JA.

At end game, I like the freedom to participate than be strict to doing what in told at the moment. If I want that, abbyssea and VW can fill that need. I just think its refreshing to show up any job I want and actually play my job that someone telling me every second to proc this, proc that, oh sorry its your fault the entire team died, or we don't need your job because your procs are not needed.

Making an event possible with few or no other people if you are good enough, while also making it realistic for people to be able to do this. Stupid restrictions on things like Salvage, Assaults, or other things of the sort are only holding players back from doing things they want. At the same time, needing an alliance of people to do things like Plasm Farm(I know super people can do it with 6, but those who need it most, cant) is foolish, there should be a way to farm Plasm without any form of NMs in the area with you. A fracture in Cirdas Caverns itself perhaps with no NMs, only a bunch of smaller mobs, their area bonus could be random between the other areas, which is currently Ice Spikes, Attack, and EVA. Make the mobs drop the same amount of Plasm, make them a bit weaker, and everyone could do it. Make WKs weaker so less people are capable of fighting them still, since popularity dies fast on new events it also means that the armies required to take down something like a WK will also die down fast, and leave the content nearly unbeatable as a result.

That's what makes every event different, and to me it sounds like you hate every event.

There is no way to change people, or those who control the majority of groups. You see people complain all the time about people shouting for Oat MNKs now just like RME MNKs would have been the choice before. You can not avoid this, no matter what you do, and it will never change. The only way you can try to help others in your position get away from this kind of thing is by making more open minded groups yourself, who will take anyone. The problem is, most wont do it, and even those who do, often end up resorting to the exact thing they are against. I know a few MNKs who are Rigor MNKs and want Oats, all shouts for MNKs on our server for Tojil are Oat MNKs only, so what do the MNKs I know do? They either get in via a friend like me, or they make their own, but when they make their own, I have noticed, they ask for only Oat MNKs too. So really, only the people effected by 'elitism' can help those who are effected by it, by being open minded in the making of their own groups.

One of the issues NA community has is discriminating players for not playing the job they want you to play. Which doesn't happen most of the time in JP parties unless its an event that forces leaders to invite specific jobs.

Demon6324236

09-01-2013, 08:09 AM

You don't understand half my arguments, so I'm done here.

Daemon

09-01-2013, 08:20 AM

You don't understand half my arguments, so I'm done here.

I understand your arguments. But there's a big difference in someone who spams an event so many times that disappointment tends to build up to a point frustration changes your way of thinking.

I use to farm scrolls, bosses, items, gear, everything all the time everyday non stop and get angry that I wasted so much time getting no where. Then I stopped and started doing things here and there pacing myself to play different events than spam the same 1 and had better results.

Right now I'm talking to a person worn out, stressed out, angry, pissed off, frustrated over an event. While you are talking to a person who is relaxed, played the event a few times to see what the overall picture of the event is setup to be and know that spamming it non stop will only put me in the same mind set as you.

11 years playing final fantasy 11 this is just my experience.

And every time you get a pebble, it only makes you even more pissed off adding on top of the disappointment you had from previous disappointments.

And lack of sleep doesn't help either.

Demon6324236

09-01-2013, 08:38 AM

Daemon

09-01-2013, 08:52 AM

I only do WKs when I see shouts, I do Skirmish, Delve, Bosses, and many other things as well. Its not as though its the only content I do. My anger right now comes not from the event, but your lack of understanding.

And I'm telling you I'm not lacking understanding. If you and me and a handful of people were the only players. Then I could agree with you 100%.

But I've spent many hours a day throughout several years playing with all types of people spamming endless quests and helping others who need it to know that they matter too.

And those people struggling worse than you and me are having it harder than us because no one will help them or consider helping them since we are beyond their level with different priorities.

And when I look at events and content like SoA, I see things DEV Team are trying to implement for everyone and not just for end game players only.

That includes addressing issues for them too and not just us.

You complain there's not enough people to play WR? Ill complain there's not enough people helping those in need to fill up those spots to do WR.

At least I know that helping people below our level will someday bring those people up to our level and adding them to friends list and building friendships will allow anyone to get things accomplished.

It's why my friendslist is full and I care enough to message each one and invite them to all events I play. And this is why I cannot relate to most of you and everyone else's arguments.

But then how many people you see never look back and give a damn about other players that they are struggling trying to find help or reasons to stay playing FFXI and only want what's best for them and complain how DEV TEAM can make it better for those who want their items now and don't care about building personal friendships, helping others but rather join groups with temporary people who you have no real intention to do more than just the current event being played to get my needs and move on before the train falls apart?

This is not the DEV TEAMs fault and I know the difference when playing with NA and JP players. And JP players opened my eyes to things NA players will never realize until you join a family type JP LS and experience this for yourself.