New gear issue: Kick attacks?

[Urat]

I think, with all the focus Se has had on pets, magic accuracy, interruption rate, and etc, SE has either forgotten or neglected to cover the glaring issue with these new badass weapons.

Se has essentially thrown the job ability Footwork in the garbage. There is absolutely no way right now that Footworks is even remotely useful when we have so many weapons with up to triple the dps of even +2 feet dps on footworks.

I think the fix for this is super easy and simple though, and falls in line with the rest.

Make +dmg on kick attacks based on the iLvl of feet armor worn by monks. The actual formula would have to make the DPS of footworks with manibozho feet be about the same as the DPS of the delve baghnacks.

This honestly should be little to no problem to do a quick fix, simply need to edit the values for all feet armor equippable by monk to have the same "hidden" +dmg mod system in the exact same style as all the other old kick attacks feet with hidden +kick attacks dmg

There's, what? like 2 pieces of feet armor? Manibozho and Thurandaut.

Thurandaut is ilvl 100, and Manibozho is ilvl 110.

Lets say we want to match the normal DPS of Forefront Cesti outside reives to Footwork DPS of Thurandaut Feet; as well as the DPS of Rigor Baghnacks unupgraded to Manibozho feet with footwork up.

The first two are bought with bayld and the second two with plasm, and have similiar ilvls, so I think its safe to say they'd have similar DPS. However footworks has +attack and other effects going for it, and the feet are much cheaper than weapons, so lets aim for about 95% or so of the DPS give or take when we dont factor in the new tp/hit, massive dmg bonus to Dragon kick, or +attack.

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Forefront Cesti: (Post update values so with the +HTH skill)
280+60=340 Delay (Martial arts 8)
Hand-To-Hand skill: 424+63+16 = 503 HTH skill on meritted mnk
Dmg: (503*0.11)+3+52 = 110 Base dmg using known HTH dmg formula
DPS: (110*60)/340 = 19.4 DPS

Rigor Baghnacks: (Post update so with the +HTh skill)
280+60=340 delay
HTH Skill: 424+162+16 = 602 HTH skill on meritted monk
DMG: (602*0.11)+3+90 = 159 base dmg
DPS: (159*60)/340 = 28.1 DPS

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Now the important thing here is I believe for a well developed system to work, players will be able to math all of this out and flat out say whether it is right or wrong to use kick attacks if the values are far off from each other. So because the new hand to hand give such massive +HTH skill, and +HTH skill would increase kick attacks, said weapons would also dramatically boost your dps of your kick attacks. So if you just balance the feet vs the hand to hand weapons WITHOUT factoring in the possibilty of just wearing both and getting
double the bonus, you'd just make that the obvious best option.

So instead, what is better to balance, is take thew best possible gear set (wearing both together) and balance footwork dps vs non footwork dps.

In other words, I am going to add +63 and +162 HTH skill to thurandant and Manibozho feet respectively, to simulate a player wearing the respective weapon.

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Goal DPSs: (Take off 5% to factor in +attack and tp/hit etc etc for footworks so it isnt strictly better)

Thurandaut Boots: 19.4*0.95 = 18.4 DPS
Manibozho Boots: 28.1*0.95 = 26.7 DPS

Base delay for both is 480

HTH skill:
Thurandaut = 424+63+16 = 503 HTH skill on meritted mnk wearing Forefront cesti
Manibozho = 424+162+16 = 602 HTH skill on meritted monk

Base dmg:
Thurandaut = (503*0.11)+3 = 58
Manibozho = (602*0.11)+3 = 69

Goal DPs formulas:
Thurandaut:
((58+x)*60)/480 = 18.4
3480+60x = 18.4*480
60x = 8832-3480
x = 5352/60= +89 KA dmg

Manibozho:
((69+x)*60)/480 = 26.7
4140 +60x = 26.7*480
60x = 12816-4140
x=8676/60= +144 KA dmg

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Result: Thurandaut and Manibozho should have roughly +89 | +144 kick attacks base dmg on them respectively to balance Footworks dps with them on vs dps of Forefront Cesti or Rigor baghnacks respectively.

This would make footworks an actually useful, but not necessarily the best, ability for monks to experiment with using. As opposed to a completely terrible and pointless waste of time JA like it currently is.

[Karah]

Se has essentially thrown the job ability Footwork in the garbage. There is absolutely no way right now that Footworks is even remotely useful when we have so many weapons with up to triple the dps of even +2 feet dps on footworks.


No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

It's not like it suddenly became useless, it was always useless.

For the most part kicks as a whole were always basically worthless except that they give an extra attack for tp.

[Urat]

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

It's not like it suddenly became useless, it was always useless.

For the most part kicks as a whole were always basically worthless except that they give an extra attack for tp.

This is kind of the problem, except now its become so differentiated in comparison that its no longer a loss of 5~10% dps but about 50~90% less DPs. Dropping from over 100 base dmg to 40~50 is a HUGE hit. At least in the past there have been brief times when footworks was useful but then bested by new equipment that came out.

SE has the option to fix this and make monk, possibly the least diversified job in the game with the most amount of cookie cutter builds, actually a little bit diversified with footwork monks being am option.

Otherwise, they've already admitted they are tight on JA id space to allocate for usage, so they should just cut out footworks entirely since it literally does nothing now except make the average monk 50~90% worse, and change it to an actually useful JA for some job.

Or just edit the values of 2 feet pieces and tack on a single stat to them and essentially completely fix the JA and make it actually kind of useful. Who knows?

If they do niether I damn well hope they never try complaining they dont have room for new JAs, cause they have one right here they can cut right out otherwise.

[darkhorror]

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.

It's not like it suddenly became useless, it was always useless.

For the most part kicks as a whole were always basically worthless except that they give an extra attack for tp.

Actually geared correctly, and using OA2+ magian trial weapon it was overpowered compared to other jobs for a while.

[Karah]

It really wasn't.

At any point you could've used OAT you should've had verethragna, before verethragna, MNK wasn't even on the map as an even semi useful job (though some people used it to tank things, and salvage).

It was more tied to the lack of subtle blow, and tp given vs the damage dealt.

It was neat for a couple days when it was broken.

[darkhorror]

It really wasn't.

At any point you could've used OAT you should've had verethragna, before verethragna, MNK wasn't even on the map as an even semi useful job (though some people used it to tank things, and salvage).

It was more tied to the lack of subtle blow, and tp given vs the damage dealt.

It was neat for a couple days when it was broken.

Yeah, no, and heck you could have had that even before useful emp weapons were around. Just because you didn't know how strong footwork was for a while it doesn't make it false.

[Karbuncle]

It really wasn't.

At any point you could've used OAT you should've had verethragna, before verethragna, MNK wasn't even on the map as an even semi useful job (though some people used it to tank things, and salvage).

It was more tied to the lack of subtle blow, and tp given vs the damage dealt.

It was neat for a couple days when it was broken.

Have to disagree on the Vereth Part. OAT h2h were pretty OP for a while with Tornado Kick and Footwork even considering Vereth (Outside Abyssea, of course). It was a short lived part of MNKs life but I had a OAT h2h sitting in my Mog Safe from when it was still a thing that i never finished, remember teaming up with MNKs to finish the trials cause everyone was doing em.

sh*t had its time.

ANWAY.

On the topic itself. Kick Attacks damage needs to be buffed in some way, either through new Equipment or through Item levels, But as it stands, its pathetic. It didn't always used to be pathetic, sure it was never built around like Double Attack, or hasn't been for a long time, but its been a part of the MNK job for a while, all the way back to Dune Boots era. Seeing it so far gone into obscurity cause of how far h2h have progressed is a little saddening. Doing 200-300 Dmg a hit (just spitballing its been a while) then seeing a 30-40 dmg hit thrown in (the kick) is a little WTF-ing.

So Footwork won't ever become super popular I imagine, But I'd like Kick Attacks to be buffed up.

[Karah]

I had a OAT h2h sitting in my Mog Safe from when it was still a thing that i never finished, remember teaming up with MNKs to finish the trials cause everyone was doing em.



A bunch of people made them, so they must've been good.

So I guess, all those people with MACC swords on blu, totally had the right idea.

Protip; just because people make them/use them/buy them, does not mean they're actually good.

OAT katanas... OAT swords... Eva daggers... Dancers using Joyuese I could go on for ever.

[Karbuncle]

Except they were good for the time around 80-85 Cap, moreso 80 cap, but a little at 85 when not everyone could rock Vereth as easily, in case people forgot Abyssea was actually Kinda hard back when we were progressing through it.

No one said they were good for any extended period of time, But back between the above mention caps, It was the current best set up, or close to the best to be at least on par. Anyway,

--BLU M.acc swords were actually popular with the JP because they believed the benefit of BLU was landing additional Effects of their spells, so for their playstyle, yah, M.acc swords were good for them. This trend bled over to others who, unfortunately used them wrong or misunderstood their value. So this one was half right, half wrong, depending on your understanding of the weapon and your intended goal. Universally good? god no.

--EVA Daggers we're one of the single best solo weapons for DNC and THF, offering higher DPS than any other evasion alternatives, and High evasion output, at the very least it was a worthwhile investment or worth the trade off for some content, thought not all. It was at the least worth having 1 for an offhand on difficult content or Medium tier content you were not capping evasion on (DC Dynamis) with limited potential DPS lost.

--OaT Sword was good for BLU for a short period if I recall, but quickly became crap past 80-85 cap, beyond that the uses were garbage.

--Joyeuse on DNC at 75 cap was more for TP Gain than damage, and was the best route to take for TP gain over damage. Useful only on weaker content like Campaign or something. Not a lot of love for DNC back then anyway.

Today? most of them suck, But for a small period of time they were the best for their uses. AGI Daggers stayed relevant up until SoA was released.

[Motenten]

A bunch of people made them, so they must've been good.

Straw man.

At level 80 (ie: Verethragna wasn't even an option), OAx weapons and Poise Shoes made Footwork an competitive damage option, basically right on par with normal H2H. If you bring up crit weaponskills for Abyssea, recall that the Razed Ruins atma that made that the instant win button was introduced with Abyssea-Misareaux -- IE: level 85, same as when Verethragna first appeared.


Now, why did the OAx weapons make Footwork viable? That would be largely due to two factors:

1) The basic damage done by a kick while under Footwork was better than normal punches, but not enough so that it made up for 1 kick per round instead of 2 punches, plus the much higher delay.

2) A mnk using Footwork is put in the same position as today's drg: you can sub /war for Berserk, or /sam for an x-hit, but not both. Only war, sam and drk have the capability of getting (essentially) both bonuses. OATs circumvented the issue in the same way as they did for drg and drk getting their respective OAT weapons, using quantity of attack to make up for the current lack.


Base damage using Footwork and Poise Shoes at level 80 was (317*.11) + 3 + 35 + 18 = 90. Base normal H2H damage was (317*.11) + 3 + 23 (Revenant Fists) = 60.

So Footwork's base damage was 50% higher than normal H2H, while its delay was 35% higher (480 vs 355). Tornado Kick with Poise Shoes was also stronger than Asuran Fists, by about 15%.



Today, however, the gap between normal H2H and kicks is so large that comparing Footwork is laughable. In fact, beyond just Footwork, SE has made kicks less and less relevant (as pointed out by Karbuncle). The DA of a war and the TA of a thf is just as useful today as it ever was, because it's a linear boost on their main weapon. Sam's enhancement of massive Store TP likewise perfectly scales with the latest weapons, as does drk's Souleater. Kicks, on the other hand, trail further and further behind.

The best kick damage you can get today is d96 (or 114 with Footwork). Mainhand weapon, on the other hand, is 152-197. Instead of Footwork's base damage being 50% ahead of normal H2H, it's now 50% behind. You could make it so that Footwork has a 100% extra kick proc rate while using standard mainhand weapons and weaponskills and it still wouldn't be able to match up with normal H2H (normal H2H would still be at least 25%, maybe 35% ahead in overall DPS).

In order for Footwork to be competitive with normal H2H, assuming you're in a situation where you're benefiting from the extra attack that Footwork provides, you'd need +300 damage to compete with Oatixurs if you were using Oatixurs with Footwork (ie: tied to the main weapon item level), or +250 damage if done while using OA2-4 weapons (ie: strap a Tsurumaru to your feet).



And then we have one additional disparity to address: Combat Skill. I don't think anyone's actually checked on the test server, so I can't say that this is correct, but given that Combat Skill only applies to the hand the weapon is held in, it's quite possible that the +dmg from skill that main H2H punches get will not be transferred to kicks, which will still be working from native skill values.

Of course the main hand damage is only going up a few points after the adjustments to the weapon damage values, so the difference between punches and kicks will still be about the same. However if it works like that, you'd also have to consider that punches get a massive amount of extra accuracy and attack, while kicks do not (and the small bonus from Footwork will instead just be a slightly smaller penalty than normal).

And if it is considered separate from kicks, we'll have yet another penalty to our form of multi-attacks. DA and TA on the main weapon skill get that weapon's attack and accuracy bonus from Combat skill, but kicks will be relegated almost a complete joke.


Frankly, it's a bit depressing to work through all the math. Kicks have always been the red-headed stepchild of multi-attacks (while the devs somehow seem to think that 2% KA is just as good as 2% DA when they make gear; I can't explain that one), but they're more of an issue now than ever. Even if they do get the benefit of Combat Skill, it still only closes the gap a small bit (maybe 20 points or so), so there's still work to be done.

If any community reps are reading, please address this question to the devs: How do they plan on dealing with kicks with respect to the new Combat Skill mechanics?

Feel free to ask if they have any plans for Footwork as well, but they'd have to do something really drastic to make it something players would even remotely consider worth using. It provides no benefits as an alternative form of damage, and there doesn't seem a point in making it a defensive stance like Yonin or Seigan, since mnk already has Counterstance.

It could remain competitive with something like 75 Store TP and +170 Damage (damage total from kick shoes and Footwork bonus)... that would work pretty much regardless of what main weapon was used (Rigors/Oatixur using Shijin, or OA2-4 using Tornado Kick). Still feel like there ought to be some other point to using the stance, though. Hasso gets haste, Seigan gets Third Eye defense, Yonin gets evasion and enmity, Innin gets crit rate and lower enmity... "A different way of doing the same damage" just doesn't cut it.

[hiko]

I don't think giving shoes skill+ the good fix but have main weapon skill affect kick dmg.
if SE makes Urat's fix (kick dmg only fixed by shoes) :
-a rigor/manibozo feet have about same DPS using footwork or not
-a ao2-4/manibozo have same dmg per hit than rigor(minus +stat) but high multi attack, only downside is WS restriction to DK/TK
=> lvl99 h2h>new h2h as long as new feets match skill/dmg of new weapon

now let's give feet urat's +dmg value (even if he forgot footwork base +dmg, just count it in the +dmg value)
rigor+mani=69+144=213
oa2-4:(424+16)*.11+3+144=195

~10% dmg/hit VS multi rate, depending on how much da/ta/qa you have before oax might still win

porposal: change skill/kick dmg
make it so it still make footwork< h2h with "normal" shoes and add kick dmg shoes that close the gap

[SpankWustler]

I'd love to know how the Development Bros plan to deal with lots of stuff in light of weapon damage, attack, and accuracy skyrocketing. It seems like anything unique to a melee job and thus not tied to all of those things, whether that thing is Kick Attacks or Blue Magic or Lunges, is suffering.

Not that Monk is in a bad place right now, or that using Footwork as opposed to just benefiting from the Kick Attacks job trait for extra attacks has ever actually been good outside of a brief time at level 80; it just drives me nuts that all melee jobs are seemingly being squished together in a way that doesn't even improve the power balance of jobs in the process. The squishing process.


while the devs somehow seem to think that 2% KA is just as good as 2% DA when they make gear; I can't explain that one

I can. However, the explanation would be roughly seven pages long and centered around a mentally challenged busboy named Benny who lived in Beloit, WI circa 1987.

The short version is this: Two weeks before being struck and instantly killed by a car while biking to work one Tuesday morning, Benny learned to transmit his thoughts through space and time by licking a frayed wire at the back of his microwave.

[Danita]

If they fix Kick Attacks (in my opinion by tying the damage to the weapon, thus avoiding this issue for the life of the game remaining), then the part of kick-related effects that Monks care about will at least be solved. Nobody really cares about Footwork (aka: turn your Monk into a Samurai without Hasso). Footwork would need an actual purpose, as others said, to ever be activated. I quite suspect that if they were to check server logs, they would see that it's possibly the least used JA of every JA on every job, ever.

For additional damage, people could still use kick boots (with damage tied to the weapon), thus creating an interesting scenario where monks have to make choices about which boots to use, again (Kick DMG vs something like Manibozho, for example). A higher tier Kick boot with solid stats would be nice as well..

[Zhronne]

This would make footworks an actually useful, but not necessarily the best, ability for monks to experiment with using.
I'm not sure about this. Increasing damage on Footwork wouldn't be enough, as I explained in a post I made in this forum some months ago (altough that was written before the "revolution" of SoA)

Before fixing the damage of Footwork, they would need to give the JA a purpose, otherwise we risk it becoming just a cosmetic JA that makes you do more or less the same damage (or a bit less) but performed with kicks instead than punches plus occasional kicks.


One possible purpose to the JA could be that of making MNK attack slower with stronger attacks. The final DPS would be a bit lower, but it would be a different way of doing damage that could be situationally useful. For example in situations where you want to minimize the TPfeed over time.
There could be other purposes to the JA but I can't think of anything else atm.

To achieve this the first thing they should implement is a multiple attacks stats conversion.
Every +KA, +DA, +TA, +QA bonus should be converted into something else. What? I don't know, for example +base damage.
Similar to how KA on legs slots was additional multiple attacks and KA on feet was additional base damage.
They should also find a way to make the weapon you equip matter somehow, with the previous Footwork (remember how powerful it was at level 80/85?) damage and delay on main weapon were completely ignored.

Would also need a revamp on Dragon Kick and Tornado Kick. The only difference during footwork is that they use Feet base damage instead of Weapon damage, and this is not enough.
This (or anything else) is not going to happen ayway, we all know it.

[Zhronne]

No one in the history of ever, has ever cared, nor used footwork, more or less at any point for any reason.
Actually at level 80 and for a good part of the 85 cap MNK/SAM using OA and Footwork was likely the strongest DD in game, it was insane.

Altough it was kinda a way to exploit what has always been, as you said, a broken JA.
The fact it never really worked though doesn't mean that nobody cares or that it shouldn't be "fixed".
But I'll agree with the fact that given the current good position MNK is standing within the game balance (perhaps too good, up to the point I'm scared a nerf might come :'( ) and given their limited resources, SE should probably focus on other aspects of the game before caring about Footwork.

[Babekeke]

My 2 Cents:

1) Footwork hasn't been a sensible option outside OAT (~lvl 80 cap and pre-nerf) and the first 2 days of it's existence (pre-nerf also). [If anyone isn't aware of the original nerf, basically, Asuran Fists with FW up gave you back full TP for every hit, instead of 1 TP for all additional hits].

2) Any adjustment to Kick Attacks at this stage in the game should be under the effects of footwork only. MNK is already BY FAR the best DD in the game right now, and doing minimal damage with kicks just to get the extra TP is just fine. Sh1t, it's not like anyone really went out of their way to gear for +kick damage in a TP set, just in case KA procced.

[Danita]

I used to use dune boots with 25% haste specifically to get that additional damage, and at that time, it was well worth it - not only was it fun to kick for higher damage than I punched for, but it made me feel proud to have gone out of my way to incorporate that aspect of the job into my build. Unfortunately, the days of kicking for more than you punch for are long gone.

[Ophannus]

Still waiting for them to adjust Boost/Chakra. People don't use Boost anymore since it slows damage down in high haste situations. Maybe the potency of boost should be multiplied by 2x however reduce the number of times it can be stacked. Thus after using boosting 5-6x under that adjustment, it would the same as using boost 12x in its current state, so you can reach the maximum boost potency sooner. Chakra need some adjusting. Dragoons can self heal for 1200-2000+ with Healing Breath, which is a 60 second recast, Chakra heals for what like 300-600ish and its a 5min timer? I know it's comparing apples to oranges because MNK has many, many other things DRG doesn't but at least shorten it to maybe 3min and increase its potency or VIT modifier.

[Urat]

Still waiting for them to adjust Boost/Chakra. People don't use Boost anymore since it slows damage down in high haste situations. Maybe the potency of boost should be multiplied by 2x however reduce the number of times it can be stacked. Thus after using boosting 5-6x under that adjustment, it would the same as using boost 12x in its current state, so you can reach the maximum boost potency sooner. Chakra need some adjusting. Dragoons can self heal for 1200-2000+ with Healing Breath, which is a 60 second recast, Chakra heals for what like 300-600ish and its a 5min timer? I know it's comparing apples to oranges because MNK has many, many other things DRG doesn't but at least shorten it to maybe 3min and increase its potency or VIT modifier.

With the massive amount of +vit gear you could probably do a chakra for over 1K hp. You'd only need maybe +200 or so and since nearly every body slot can have like +35 vit it's not that hard to stack a lot of it.

So you have to ask is it worthwhile carrying around a pile of vit gear just for chakra?

Second, boost is very very useful, you pop it right before WSing, giving you that nice little attack bonus right before hand. Since you use them back to back there isn't really any kind of delay. Same for Chi Blast, you macro boost -> chi blast for extra damage.

Also you should be using boost between fights on the run to get some extra damage on your first hit. It's not useless.

Now if SE wanted a good buff for boost, make it a 45 second recast instead of 15 and triple it's potency. Basically turn it into a mini sneak attack for monk that doesnt care about orientation, but isnt quite as strong.

[Camiie]

The JA delay from using Boost during battle does more harm than good from what I understand.

[Demonjustin]

For general attacks, yes, but for WS I think it might be beneficial simply because the delay is roughly the same still, but you gain that extra attack.

[radicaldreamer]

I think they should just change the footwork skill all together.

Original use: Makes kick attacks your primary mode of attack

Suggested change: Greatly increases added kicks while attacking. (60% or so chance of throwing an extra kick in each round of attacks)

Then they could just increase the recast time to make it fair, and it wouldn't be useless anymore. :-)