Future of the Dark Rider and the Iron Colossus

[skullreaper]

I never understood why Alexander and Odin were made into astral flow avatars not only is it an unnecessary requirement, but in addition if they were added as regular avatars they would have still received an astral flow ability just like all our other avatars. I think that instead of making new avatars Square Enix should focus on these avatars to make them a better part of the summoner arsenal either way all their abilities and movement data is already in the game so how hard can it exactly be. Here my framework of how I envision these avatars being reworked.


Odin

Attributes
-Job: Dark Knight
-Favor: Regain
-Element: Dark
-Weakness: Light
-Unlockable: Level 1
-Initial Summoning: 7 MP


Perpetuation Cost
-Level 1: 4 MP Tick
-Level 12: 6 MP Tick
-Level 24: 8 MP Tick
-Level 36: 10 MP Tick
-Level 48: 12 MP Tick
-Level 50: 14 MP Tick
-Level 62: 16 MP Tick
-Level 74: 18 MP Tick
-Level 86: 19 MP Tick
-Level 91: 20 MP Tick


Special Abilities
I.) Level 1 Zantetsuken: Inflicts Death on all enemies within range.
-Bloodpact: Rage (Requires Astral Flow)
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone
-Notes: This ability does not consume Astral Flow similar to the other avatars.


Blood Pact: Rage
II.) Level 10 Gagnrath: Deals damage to all enemies within range, and inflicts terror for a short duration.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone
-Notes: The Terror effect is very short about the same duration of a stun.

III.) Level 34 Ofnir: Deals damage to all enemies within range, and inflicts them with defense down.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone

IV.) Level 66 Valfodr: Deals damage to all enemies within range, and inflicts them with silence and curse.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone

V.) Level 93 Geirrothr: Deals high damage to all enemies within range.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone


Blood Pact: Ward
VI.) Level 58 Yggr: Gives all party members within range the ability to intimidate the monster.
-Bloodpact: Ward
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone

VII.) Level 87 Sanngetall: Dispels a buff from all enemies within range.
-Bloodpact: Ward
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone


Alexander

Attributes
-Job: Paladin
-Favor: Critical Defense Bonus
-Element: Light
-Weakness: Dark
-Unlockable: Level 1
-Initial Summoning: 7 MP


Perpetuation Cost
-Level 1: 4 MP Tick
-Level 12: 6 MP Tick
-Level 24: 8 MP Tick
-Level 36: 10 MP Tick
-Level 48: 12 MP Tick
-Level 50: 14 MP Tick
-Level 62: 16 MP Tick
-Level 74: 18 MP Tick
-Level 86: 19 MP Tick
-Level 91: 20 MP Tick


Special Abilities
-Level 1 Divine Judgement: Deals heavy light elemental damage to enemies within area of effect.
-Bloodpact: Rage (Requires Astral Flow)
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular
-Notes: This ability does not consume Astral Flow similar to the other avatars.

-Level 1 Perfect Defense: Reduces damage taken and greatly increases resistance to most status effect for party members within area of effect.
-Bloodpact: Ward (Requires Astral Flow)
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular
-Notes: Unlike the other avatars Alexander has 2 astral flow abilities, but this one automatically consumes the astral flow status.


Blood Pact: Rage
-Level 10 Divine Spear: Deals low damage to an enemy, and has an additional effect of attack down.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Single

-Level 27 Radiant Sacrament: Deals moderate damage to all the enemies within range has an additional effect of magic defense down.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular

-Level 40 Holy: Deals light elemental damage to the target.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Single

-Level 85 Holy II: Deals heavy light elemental damage to the target.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Single

-Level 97 Mega Holy: Deals light damage to all enemies within range, and wipes shadows.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular


Blood Pact: Ward
-Level 81 Gospel of the Lost: Single target cure that heals one debuff from the target.
-Bloodpact: Ward
-Element: Light
-Range: Single


~~~Other Information~~~

1.) Unlike the other avatars attributes that are very similar to a black mage or white mage, odin takes the attributes of a dark knight making his attack power much more suitable, and alexander takes the attributes of a paladin making his defense much more suitable for taking damage.

2.) Alexander avatar functions similar to his prime version meaning that he's mobile; however, his auto attack power is quite low comparable to carbuncle but his bloodpacts still pack quite a punch. In addition Alexander is also the only avatar to have 2 astral flow abilities.

3.) Odin has no single target bloodpacts, all his bloodpacts are area of effect and cone range making him quite different from the other avatars, only his auto attack is single target.

4.) As you might have noticed the summoning cost is similar to the other elemental avatars; however, they have a much higher Perpetuation Cost that is because they have many addition benefits that the other avatars do not, and I felt that the high Perpetuation would make them hard to maintain by low level summoners making it unwise for low level summoners to use them in order to keep there powerful image, but they still have benefits for low level summoners.

[FaeQueenCory]

While I tend to like this...
We really don't need ANOTHER dark avatar...
Even though we're getting one (Atomos)...
And doing something similar to what you've done with Alexander will probably be redundant once Cait Sith happens....
20 years from now.

All in all, I'd be for Odin and Alexander being changed into non-2hr summons... BUT, I'd rather wait for Cait Sith and Atomos... who will probably wind up with very similar abilities to your proposed ones.
(also sneak/invis... I'm calling it now, Cait Sith will have it... It's like the one thing smn can't do through an avatar... And I'm just 82% sure that She will have it in -ga form.)

Redundant avatars = unused/underused avatars... though your proposal would actually make Odin readily usable. lol

(and screw Carby.... I am MORE than fine with Cait Sith replacing him as the Light avatar... little sephiroth dbag... He get slaps from me at every summoning!)

[skullreaper]

Cait Sith already has an ability list if you look at all her abilities she really doesn't have many light based attacks and useful abilities, plus since we already have odin and alexander how hard can it be to just expand them. And while yes odin is dark based his bloodpacts are more physical based.

[Archades]

Serious : Unless the cone is real small having all of odin Rages cone would be very limiting. and i noticed they are all elemental, did you not intend them to have physical BPs?

Fun: Need to give Alex the macross missle move from FFIX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsYpasHUVc8

[skullreaper]

These are the bloodpacts they use in there battle, all of odin moves are area of effect in his battle. Also when an avatar dies the enmity of the other enemies resets.

[nyheen]

I never understood why Alexander and Odin were made into astral flow avatars not only is it an unnecessary requirement, but in addition if they were added as regular avatars they would have still received an astral flow ability just like all our other avatars. I think that instead of making new avatars Square Enix should focus on these avatars to make them a better part of the summoner arsenal either way all their abilities and movement data is already in the game so how hard can it exactly be. Here my framework of how I envision these avatars being reworked.


Odin

Attributes
-Job: Dark Knight
-Favor: Regain
-Element: Dark
-Weakness: Light
-Unlockable: Level 1
-Initial Summoning: 7 MP


Perpetuation Cost
-Level 1: 4 MP Tick
-Level 12: 6 MP Tick
-Level 24: 8 MP Tick
-Level 36: 10 MP Tick
-Level 48: 12 MP Tick
-Level 50: 14 MP Tick
-Level 62: 16 MP Tick
-Level 74: 18 MP Tick
-Level 86: 19 MP Tick
-Level 91: 20 MP Tick


Special Abilities
I.) Level 1 Zantetsuken: Inflicts Death on all enemies within range.
-Bloodpact: Rage (Requires Astral Flow)
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone
-Notes: This ability does not consume Astral Flow similar to the other avatars.


Blood Pact: Rage
II.) Level 10 Gagnrath: Deals damage to all enemies within range, and inflicts terror for a short duration.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone
-Notes: The Terror effect is very short about the same duration of a stun.

III.) Level 34 Ofnir: Deals damage to all enemies within range, and inflicts them with defense down.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone

IV.) Level 66 Valfodr: Deals damage to all enemies within range, and inflicts them with silence and curse.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone

V.) Level 93 Geirrothr: Deals high damage to all enemies within range.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone


Blood Pact: Ward
VI.) Level 58 Yggr: Gives all party members within range the ability to intimidate the monster.
-Bloodpact: Ward
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone

VII.) Level 87 Sanngetall: Dispels a buff from all enemies within range.
-Bloodpact: Ward
-Element: Dark
-Range: Cone


Alexander

Attributes
-Job: Paladin
-Favor: Critical Defense Bonus
-Element: Light
-Weakness: Dark
-Unlockable: Level 1
-Initial Summoning: 7 MP


Perpetuation Cost
-Level 1: 4 MP Tick
-Level 12: 6 MP Tick
-Level 24: 8 MP Tick
-Level 36: 10 MP Tick
-Level 48: 12 MP Tick
-Level 50: 14 MP Tick
-Level 62: 16 MP Tick
-Level 74: 18 MP Tick
-Level 86: 19 MP Tick
-Level 91: 20 MP Tick


Special Abilities
-Level 1 Divine Judgement: Deals heavy light elemental damage to enemies within area of effect.
-Bloodpact: Rage (Requires Astral Flow)
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular
-Notes: This ability does not consume Astral Flow similar to the other avatars.

-Level 1 Perfect Defense: Reduces damage taken and greatly increases resistance to most status effect for party members within area of effect.
-Bloodpact: Ward (Requires Astral Flow)
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular
-Notes: Unlike the other avatars Alexander has 2 astral flow abilities, but this one automatically consumes the astral flow status.


Blood Pact: Rage
-Level 10 Divine Spear: Deals low damage to an enemy, and has an additional effect of attack down.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Single

-Level 27 Radiant Sacrament: Deals moderate damage to all the enemies within range has an additional effect of magic defense down.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular

-Level 40 Holy: Deals light elemental damage to the target.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Single

-Level 85 Holy II: Deals heavy light elemental damage to the target.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Single

-Level 97 Mega Holy: Deals light damage to all enemies within range, and wipes shadows.
-Bloodpact: Rage
-Element: Light
-Range: Circular


Blood Pact: Ward
-Level 81 Gospel of the Lost: Single target cure that heals one debuff from the target.
-Bloodpact: Ward
-Element: Light
-Range: Single


~~~Other Information~~~

1.) Unlike the other avatars attributes that are very similar to a black mage or white mage, odin takes the attributes of a dark knight making his attack power much more suitable, and alexander takes the attributes of a paladin making his defense much more suitable for taking damage.

2.) Alexander avatar functions similar to his prime version meaning that he's mobile; however, his auto attack power is quite low comparable to carbuncle but his bloodpacts still pack quite a punch. In addition Alexander is also the only avatar to have 2 astral flow abilities.

3.) Odin has no single target bloodpacts, all his bloodpacts are area of effect and cone range making him quite different from the other avatars, only his auto attack is single target.

4.) As you might have noticed the summoning cost is similar to the other elemental avatars; however, they have a much higher Perpetuation Cost that is because they have many addition benefits that the other avatars do not, and I felt that the high Perpetuation would make them hard to maintain by low level summoners making it unwise for low level summoners to use them in order to keep there powerful image, but they still have benefits for low level summoners.

Marry me! >.>!

[FaeQueenCory]

Cait Sith already has an ability list if you look at all her abilities she really doesn't have many light based attacks and useful abilities, plus since we already have odin and alexander how hard can it be to just expand them. And while yes odin is dark based his bloodpacts are more physical based.
Um...... Since when? Did I just miss that?
I did a quick search and found..... nothing.
The last we heard about Her was that little autoattack video... And I don't recall seeing a post about her BPs...
Do you have a link?

[skullreaper]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cait_Sith_Ceithir

Look at special attack section, usually avatars get the same abilities that they use in their battle.

[FaeQueenCory]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cait_Sith_Ceithir

Look at special attack section, usually avatars get the same abilities that they use in their battle.
That WOULD normally be accurate....
Except Cait Sith is a fragmentary being, much like Phoenix.
At this moment, there is no indication as to what Her abilities will be... because are we getting the full Her? Or are we getting another fragment of Her? (your link is to one of her fragments... and given that there are 9 other fragments in WotG alone... and then Her "true" combined form.... your assumption has no baring on Her abilities as a summon.... especially if we are getting a miniature of Her "full" form or if we are getting another fragment of Her whole, like the Voidwatch Cait Sith.)
It's wrong to assume that we know ANY of her capabilities at this time until a dev says what She will be able to do.
This is especially true for Cait Sith and Phoenix because both have only been presented in fragmentary form and we have not ever witnessed their true potential or their full abilities.

All we know is that She is a Light summon, won't be a 2hr like Odin or Alexander, and that's it for the moment.

[Draylo]

I like this, although I don't think they would ever give Alexander two astral flow pacts.

[Sarirodord]

I also thought about Alexander having 2 special (1hr) abilities - his true special is Divine Judgement, clearly, but Perfect Defense is something that we all got used to. But I like a lot better the whole thing you proposed, makes a lot of sense. SE guys, please hear this man out!!!
Another thing that bugs me is that when you summon Alexander, he has the image of the piece of metal put together by the empire. Well, I believe it would be more appropriate for him to have the image of the real god, the one shown during mission 40: Unraveling Reason (see here (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Alexander_god.jpg)).

[Brightshadow]

Now that we know how useless Cait Sith is, and the intentions of SE for Cait Sith by making her into some type of carbuncle V2.0 they should just remake Odin and Alexander and forget about Atomos. I mean why not finish what you started Alexander and Odin are already 75% done they have all the animations in the game plus the quest line is complete. I mean really how hard is it to make them into regular summons ~_~.

also please for the love of god don't say they are too big, because diabolos is around the same size as odin. This thread needs more votes to catch SE attention similar to how they changed their minds for the relic and empy ilevel raise.

[Alhanelem]

They were probably made that way for a few reasons-
1) to avoid having to develop full ability sets for them / rebalance the existing ones
2) from a lore perspective, I believe they wanted to maintain the reputation of these avatars as figures of extreme power and thus not give the player full control over them. (similar to why in FFXIV we don't get control over the actual primals, but rather a conjured entity whose capabilities are derived from an object associated with that primal)
3) alexander specifically, would need a lot of new animations to be a normal avatar, as it doens't move and doesn't have walk/run/attack animations.

if you want to condense it all into a word, it would be 'laziness'.

[Brightshadow]

They were probably made that way for a few reasons-
1) to avoid having to develop full ability sets for them / rebalance the existing ones
2) from a lore perspective, I believe they wanted to maintain the reputation of these avatars as figures of extreme power and thus not give the player full control over them. (similar to why in FFXIV we don't get control over the actual primals, but rather a conjured entity whose capabilities are derived from an object associated with that primal)
3) alexander specifically, would need a lot of new animations to be a normal avatar, as it doens't move and doesn't have walk/run/attack animations.

if you want to condense it all into a word, it would be 'laziness'.


1.) The balancing is actually not that hard since all they would have to do is adjust number valves.
2.) The other celestials avatars are just as powerful as odin and alexander the only thing about these two is that they are awaken, and remember we just manifest a portion of their power not the full fledged avatar.
3.) Alexander has all the animations he needs, he has a movement animation in his prime fight he hovers.

While its true that's it's laziness if there is popular demand for them to be changed SE might give them a second look, in reality the whole Astral flow avatar only deal is dumb especially due to work necessary to unlock them, and if they want to keep there powerful image why the hell even give summoners avatars just give us joke summons like minichocobo, mog, carbuncle, etc ~_~ we need powerful beings not cait sith which is even less useful than the celestial avatars that can be obtained with much more less effort.

[Alhanelem]

2.) The other celestials avatars are just as powerful as odin and alexanderI don't think you have sufficient data to make that determination.


3.) Alexander has all the animations he needs, he has a movement animation in his prime fight he hovers.New to me, I don't remember ever seeing Alexander (or more accurately, the colossus) move.

[Lithera]

He can move in one of the fights post ToAU or at least it's what a walk through I read said. Never saw it my self though.

[Draylo]

He can move in the avatar fight, he hovers with jets on his back or something. Odin was typically a 1h only avatar through the series, but Alexander should be normal.

[Imakun]

All the summons were "1h only" before XI lol (except X of course)

I too agree with Brightshadow, all celestial Avatars are equally powerful. The first six ones are just not fully awoken, and we all know what would become of Vana'diel if that were to happen.
BUT.. at this point I really don't care about lore. I'm willing to put that aside if it helps gameplay because, honestly.. this game is 11 years old. Any change that can improve the gameplay of any job is more than welcome. Or at least throw us a bone, for god's sake.
I never ever used Alexander after my last endgame LS disbanded, it's just that useless. Odin.. I don't even know, and we all know how great Atomos is going to be. Yea.

Give us our robot lasers and big pony SE!

[Cabalabob]

I don't mind having them the way they are, but I'd like them to have a non-astral flow attack. For example

instead of using perfect defense alexander could use gospel of the lost to heal the party and remove debuffs. the amount healed and number of debuffs removed would be based on your summoning skill

instead of using zantetsuken Odin could use geirrothr 10000 damage + stun and bind. AoE but the damage is halved between targets, like 1000 needles. Duration of the stun + bind would be based on summoning magic skill.

Both skills would use half your mp. So although they would be stronger than other blood pacts they would also require a lot more mp than them.

[Brightshadow]

I don't think you have sufficient data to make that determination.

New to me, I don't remember ever seeing Alexander (or more accurately, the colossus) move.

I don't mean gameplay wise, of course Alexander and Odin are more powerful because they were created as endgame expansion bosses instead of job specialized pets; however, lore wise alexander and odin are mere gods just like shiva,ifrit,ramuh,leviathan,garuda,and titan. The only reason why we cannot summon and control them is because they probably did the same thing they did with Cait Sith tell us that the avatars are in development while they weren't and then rushed to release them, and probably someone in the SE development team gave them the genius idea to limit the work on these 2 avatars by making them astral flow attacks only. I call this pure laziness there is no reason we can't call these gods at will. Just like the other celestial beings. And we know what we can get from Odin and Alexander they would be great tools for summoners because Alexander would offer us great damage dealing pacts, and some great support moves, while Odin would probably be good for AOE since almost all of his moves are area of effect.

Also here is a video of Alexander moving....

2:30-2:35 you can see Alexander move in his fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMPZA2HumhY

[Alhanelem]

When I meant "not sufficient data" I meant lore data, not stats data.