How long is too long

[Vivivivi]

Hour number 6 here for Yumcax, 160 people, Delve weapons galore, healing, support, Aegis's Ochains, geos, corsairs, still at around 30% health.

If this is an indication of what is to come for delve in these new zones, I'm out.

[Kaisha]

Then stop joining groups when Colonization % for the zone is lower than 50.

They were designed to have very high DT at lower %, to the point where 20 and under is pretty much a COR & SMN-only affair as far as damage output goes.

[Vivivivi]

Then stop joining groups when Colonization % for the zone is lower than 50.

They were designed to have very high DT at lower %, to the point where 20 and under is pretty much a COR & SMN-only affair as far as damage output goes.

While that's true, your point is irrelevant when 1 person can cause a wipe of 150+ people. The larger issue in my opinion is this content smells of Pandemonium Warden Syndrome. No one wants to leave because of the time investment of farming ~75K bayld, so no one leaves, everyone gets mad, and everyone starts to hate this game.

[OmnysValefor]

Then stop joining groups when Colonization % for the zone is lower than 50.

They were designed to have very high DT at lower %, to the point where 20 and under is pretty much a COR & SMN-only affair as far as damage output goes.

This is pretty awful thinking.

One person, one party, can't make a respectable difference in reive rate. Right now, reive rates are as good as they're going to get, as well. As people get their weapons and hats, etc, less and less people will do it because the investment (time, mostly) is so steep, that helping anything short of your entire ls is a waste of time.

Groups are only going to get worse as groups become 25 people trying to zombie through it with 2 cor and 2 smn.

Simple observable fact is that many servers don't have the populations for reives to stabilize, as can be observed just after content-launch.

[Zumi]

That's nothing was in a 9 hour Yumcax with 250 people only to get the neck piece I already had. By making Cor the only good damage dealer at low % col rate just makes the whole thing take a long time.

[Vivivivi]

13.5 hours, one frustrated player trained all of the mobs to MPK everyone, after everyone took a break and regrouped and had started making progress. I am sorry, if this is how this is supposed to work by design, it is bad design.

[Anjou]

This is why I don't do SoA content.

[Mostfowl]

13.5 hours, one frustrated player trained all of the mobs to MPK everyone, after everyone took a break and regrouped and had started making progress. I am sorry, if this is how this is supposed to work by design, it is bad design.

I hope you all mass called a GM and had him banned.

[Moppet]

13.5 hours, one frustrated player trained all of the mobs to MPK everyone, after everyone took a break and regrouped and had started making progress. I am sorry, if this is how this is supposed to work by design, it is bad design.

Blah, that sucks. I didn't know Wildreives could take that long.

[Edyth]

I wasn't there for the whole battle, but I posted a bug report about the unbreakable regen shield. Please offer any additional info you can so that Yumcax gets an axe through his head from the development team:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/35947-20-hour-Yumcax-fight-due-to-unbreakable-regen-shield

[Armond]

25 hours longest here, technically. Took 6 hours to get him to even 50% due to only having 5-7 COR at low % then maintenance was announced for one hour later so no chance to finish. Went to bed and logged at the battlefield, logged back on and it was still going with him at 99% rejoined and fought for another 8 hours or so slowly getting more COR. All that so I wouldn't lose 50k bayld that I could have farmed back in a few hours.

[Kristal]

13.5 hours, one frustrated player trained all of the mobs to MPK everyone, after everyone took a break and regrouped and had started making progress. I am sorry, if this is how this is supposed to work by design, it is bad design.

Funny thing is, MPKing you lot actually IS a valid tactic. It means you aren't doing things like keeping Yumcax in it's regen state and you actually got time to read the shouts. Yumcax's regen can be countered by dealing wind damage.

It's also possible they were trying to kill the people stuck in the terrain behind the Oops Moogle, so they could be tractored.

I was on a 25% col rate Yumcax that was at 98-100% HP for the first 30 minutes while people were getting into the reive. Then people started shouting in every known language (I swear there even was someone shouting in Klingon) what the tactic was, and it died 3.5 hours later (mostly due to low col rate). If you aren't doing wind damage, you kill adds. If you can't kill adds, you support those that do.


Blah, that sucks. I didn't know Wildreives could take that long.

They only last that long if you don't know what you are doing. Which is pretty common at first.

[Vivivivi]

I just logged back in, and it's still going on, verified by players who were here when I logged. 24 hours+ and counting!

[Daemon]

13.5 hours, one frustrated player trained all of the mobs to MPK everyone, after everyone took a break and regrouped and had started making progress. I am sorry, if this is how this is supposed to work by design, it is bad design.

Imagine if you spend 12 hours then emergency maintenance forced you and everyone to log off.... Seriously...

[Vivivivi]

27 hours, dead finally.

[Fusionx]

I was dealing with Yumcax for around 13 hours the other day. I found myself dozing off several times during this. I was starting to lose my sanity, and yet I didn't want to give up my 70k bayld either.

Of course on one hand, we as players know that a lower colonization rate will mean a more difficult Wildskeeper Reive. However, with 70+ people in the zone at all times, there is absolutely no reason this should be taking as long as it is to kill. This needs to be adjusted, and it needs to be adjusted now.

This is 2013, fights shouldn't take more than a few hours at most, regardless of things like col. rate etc.

[Stompa]

Five hours or above is too long, for any single event. SE still have their lol-comment when you log in about "don't forget your real life and family and friends" then they throw out NMs that can take an entire day to beat. What this means in real terms is that anyone with an actual real job/education & responsibilities is automatically eliminated from obtaining certain gear. The fact that SE did *not* realise this back in 2005~ when alliances were farming 18 Ohats in a run, which could go on for 9 hours in some cases, and people were dropping out because they were too tired after working all day in an office or w/e and so they spent their four or five hours evening game time farming hats for ppl but never got theirs. This problem has existed in FFxi for a decade and instead of rectifying it, SE have made the problem go completely steroidic in SOA.
I bought SOA, and play the quest/mission/coalition storyline content as far as it has currently been released, I give a thumbs-up to SE for Seekers areas, the city and wild zones etc are great, the missions and quests are very enjoyable (to me). I farmed some c.rieve armors I wanted for haste set, but I have 100% /avoid on delve and wk.rieve coz of the time and blunt-instrument nature of the events. I also have reservations about releasing dmg220+ weaps into vanadiel, but thats different.

[Vivivivi]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, I was afk while it was defeated and KO'd so no drop, despite actively participating enough to hit the 25k bayld cap. ><

Correction, I reviewed the chatlog and got a cool ebony log woot!

[hiko]

stop blaming SE because playerbase is stupid!

[Vivivivi]

stop blaming SE because playerbase is stupid!

ok!!!!!! XD

[sc4500]

It a modern day mmo fight (defiance get 900 people killing a boss) , yea it takes time, but when the entire player base and server understands it will not be going that hard. Need some cow bells and 40 summoners. Heck 3 pallys and 3 whm and then 60 cors, and 60 smn and 60 bst and 200 people that understand the game hehe. You can still toss a pebble if got your skill up for 3 damage on any job.

[FrankReynolds]

stop blaming SE because playerbase is stupid!

I blame you!

[Demon6324236]

stop blaming SE because playerbase is stupid!We fight at low rates because Reives are boring, slow, and to easy with any meaningful amount of people to be of any fun. They made its DT so high we have to do Reives to make the fights doable. We did not make the boring content, and we also did not make the high DT, this is our fault?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

These glitches are everywhere. Last time I was camping Onvi, there was a 90min delay in the pop.
GM repsonse was a blanket messege stating, "not my problem."

[Mahoro]

We fight at low rates because Reives are boring, slow, and to easy with any meaningful amount of people to be of any fun. They made its DT so high we have to do Reives to make the fights doable. We did not make the boring content, and we also did not make the high DT, this is our fault?

These are actually not the reasons why Yumcax in particular is fought at low rates, because otherwise Marjami wouldn't be at 100%. People fight Yumcax at low rates because they view Yorcia Weald as difficult to Reive in. Whether accurate or inaccurate, Yorcia is viewed as an inaccessible zone to the general populace.

[Karbuncle]

We fight at low rates because Reives are boring, slow, and to easy with any meaningful amount of people to be of any fun. They made its DT so high we have to do Reives to make the fights doable. We did not make the boring content, and we also did not make the high DT, this is our fault?

I do hate to say it... but yah, It kinda is... You don't eat Raw Chicken because it takes too long to cook, and if you did, you couldn't blame the chicken packaging company for your death. (not only cause you're dead but cause you're stupid for eating it in the first place without proper preparation )

These things are intentionally designed to be c*ckblocks if Colonization isn't Above 50% or so, as they have massive DT... If people actively try to just zerg-rush it with Colonization rates at 11-20%, Its their own fault, not the designers. These fights were meant to be tediously difficulty without proper Preparation. This preparation being the advancement of colonization.

This is entirely The playerbases fault for trying to skip the entirety of Colonization to get straight to the goodies. These fights are designed a certain way, and we as a playerbase know how they're designed. Skipping 60% of Colonization because they're too lazy/its too boring. then crying foul when they can't win the reives... I'm literally, yes literally, angry that i share the same breathing air with the type of people who have this logical thought process as It makes me ashamed to be human...

These Wildskeepers have the proper warning labels, and with preparation, are easy to defeat. I think the only thing I'd say warrants adjusting is idiots being able to MPK everyone on a dime. IDK, If you're not engaged and a certain distance from the boss, I think Enemies should no longer aggro you. That way only idiots could MPK themselves...

(P.S any hint of personal attacks are completely unintentional)

[Stompa]

stop blaming SE because playerbase is stupid!

Playerbase did not invent coalition rieves, with twenty people trying to hit a lump of wood faster than each other so they can get a few extra bayld ticks before it ends. Fact is that SE made infinitely better battlefields in WOTG, years ago, which the playerbase largely applauded, but the battlefields in SOA totally suck conceptually which is why the playerbase is complaining. If you add the whole-day NM battles to obtain junk only in the random spool drop system, you are looking at a badly thought-out expansion.

[Demon6324236]

These things are intentionally designed to be c*ckblocks if Colonization isn't Above 50% or so, as they have massive DT... If people actively try to just zerg-rush it with Colonization rates at 11-20%, Its their own fault, not the designers.This is partly what I mean, you said it right here. They intentionally designed it to be a cock-block, but then its not their fault that we do it this way. If you make a boring event for the sake of forcing people to do it, that's not the players fault. Chicken needs to be cooked properly, yes, but the company in charge of that has no say in the matter, its not something they can really help, where as this is completely implemented on purpose by SE.

[Karbuncle]

Well, The thing is, The event was entertaining at first, but as with everything that has no element of randomness, it'll become boring through time, So At least these new zones have different mobs...? So the inevitability of the event becoming boring or being boring Is in itself not a valid defense for being outraged that the NM you're trying to kill is hard solely based on the fact You're ignoring everything that will make it easy.

I think I should edit/finangle that particular sentence cause it pretty much sums up the point I'm trying to make... You can't be upset the Content you're trying to beat is hard solely based on the fact You're ignoring everything that the devs specifically implemented to make it easy.

Think that works... Regardless, Hopefully you see what I mean. While yes i can definitely agree to some extent designing content to be hard until you funnel down the correct path is rather lazy, But isn't that pretty much the entirety of most RPGs? Some just have a better way of making the funneling seem fun, and not like funneling at all, FFXI is losing that capability because no one wants to funnel through boring content knowing their carrot on a stick is going to spoil in less than a Month's time.

I mean, while i can't particularly remember any good comparison off the top of my head, I know for a fact theres many times in games where some enemies would be super hard until you weaken them, or knew their tricks. in this case, we know the tricks, and if you ignore them or avoid them when its so easy to do (even if a tad boring or tedious) its entirely ones own fault for ignoring the means to easy victory.

I won't say the system is without flaws, I just don't feel complaining that a fight takes too long because you've completely and purposefully ignored every tool at your disposal to make the fight shorter is legitimate by any means. :x

[Demon6324236]

I understand your point, though some of what you say is a bit incorrect I think. Like for instance your comparison with weakening a monster until we know their tricks. Well, Delve captures that idea, and we use those tricks every fight, some of them are a near must. But at the same time, I have to say, these WK Reives are not the same way, it sounds like Yumcax is similar in the fact he has some kind of regen which can be broken by wind damage, but otherwise, not so much.

I understand your point overall that the players are ignoring it and it is our fault for such a thing, but I do not think we should have all blame in this matter. If Reives themselves were more enjoyable, rewarding, or just generally not such a big time taker which requires so many people, I think we would be ok, but none of those are the case sadly. So while we can take some blame, I think SE is partly to blame as well.

[Vold]

Well, The thing is, The event was entertaining at first, but as with everything that has no element of randomness, it'll become boring through time, So At least these new zones have different mobs...? So the inevitability of the event becoming boring or being boring Is in itself not a valid defense for being outraged that the NM you're trying to kill is hard solely based on the fact You're ignoring everything that will make it easy.

I think I should edit/finangle that particular sentence cause it pretty much sums up the point I'm trying to make... You can't be upset the Content you're trying to beat is hard solely based on the fact You're ignoring everything that the devs specifically implemented to make it easy.

Think that works... Regardless, Hopefully you see what I mean. While yes i can definitely agree to some extent designing content to be hard until you funnel down the correct path is rather lazy, But isn't that pretty much the entirety of most RPGs? Some just have a better way of making the funneling seem fun, and not like funneling at all, FFXI is losing that capability because no one wants to funnel through boring content knowing their carrot on a stick is going to spoil in less than a Month's time.

I mean, while i can't particularly remember any good comparison off the top of my head, I know for a fact theres many times in games where some enemies would be super hard until you weaken them, or knew their tricks. in this case, we know the tricks, and if you ignore them or avoid them when its so easy to do (even if a tad boring or tedious) its entirely ones own fault for ignoring the means to easy victory.

I won't say the system is without flaws, I just don't feel complaining that a fight takes too long because you've completely and purposefully ignored every tool at your disposal to make the fight shorter is legitimate by any means. :xSometimes though it's still not that simple because of the entire server's unwillingness to do reive content to make other reive content easier. You and I may understand how to make this stuff easier, and the entire server can understand it, but it won't change the fact that most everyone is opting out of doing saaaaaay Yorcia Weald reives. In that case, while it is the server's fault, one can argue it's mainly SE's fault for designing the content in the fashion they did.

When you look at the col rates before the last update, I would say it was completely on our heads for not doing certain zones, and while a few hundred hardcore end game people may decide that they want to do things right, their effort is meaningless without the rest of the server helping them.

That aside, here comes the SoA version of Caedarva Mire called Yorcia Weald and people are like, F that noise. It's going to end up being that one zone per expansion that everyone loves to hate.

There is a simple solution to the problem, add more drops like capes to all reives, and as much as I am hating the random drop nature of these items, I believe they need to stay that way or else people will get their drops and never do reives again unless they are active enough in SoA that they need a steady supply of bayld. As long as they insist on designing content that requires the server to never stop doing said content to have full benefits of the expansion, they have to properly motivate us to follow their lead. Properly motivate us and there will be no issues whatsoever except when you design a zone like Yorcia Weald that's a chore to get to, shares drops with other new and easier to play in zones, and then when you're there, yeah..... need different drops per zone to properly motivate people. If Yorcia dropped JSE necks or earrings or rings or whatever, it would be at 100% col rate right now, too, despite sucking for fun factor. There's some nice drops from Yumcax, but not nice enough to make most people care to do reives in Yorcia Weald because most people aren't trying to do Yumcax and you need most people doing reives to make any meaningful progress in col rate.

[Siviard]

Here's the simple solution...

Make all Wildskeeper Reives INACTIVE if the Colonization Rate in the zone is below 50%. This will FORCE the player base to participate in Colonization Reives in the areas where Naakuals are located and prevent these 24+ hour marathon sessions I've been hearing so much about.

I've been actively doing a Colonization Reive in Yorcia Weald (it's the only one I can find wandering around that blasted forest) trying to get the rate up. Sadly, I am the ONLY PERSON there, yet there are 70+ others in the zone. Guess where they're at. Yes, another marathon session is going on on Shiva server right now. Coming up on hour #13 if I'm not mistaken, as I saw the first shout for it around 1pm CST this afternoon, and it's nearly 3am now.

***Ninja Edit*** And I've just been MPK'd by a Paladin who claimed the monsters in the Reive and intentionally moved out of range while I was meleeing the roots believing she was still tanking the Reive monsters.

[detlef]

I do hate to say it... but yah, It kinda is... You don't eat Raw Chicken because it takes too long to cook, and if you did, you couldn't blame the chicken packaging company for your death. (not only cause you're dead but cause you're stupid for eating it in the first place without proper preparation )

These things are intentionally designed to be c*ckblocks if Colonization isn't Above 50% or so, as they have massive DT... If people actively try to just zerg-rush it with Colonization rates at 11-20%, Its their own fault, not the designers. These fights were meant to be tediously difficulty without proper Preparation. This preparation being the advancement of colonization.

This is entirely The playerbases fault for trying to skip the entirety of Colonization to get straight to the goodies. These fights are designed a certain way, and we as a playerbase know how they're designed. Skipping 60% of Colonization because they're too lazy/its too boring. then crying foul when they can't win the reives... I'm literally, yes literally, angry that i share the same breathing air with the type of people who have this logical thought process as It makes me ashamed to be human...The SE devs went out of their way to make Yorcia as unappealing as possible.

-Truly embarrassingly awful map
-Only 4 colonization reives, which are spread out
-True sight panopt mobs
-Colonization reives block your passage

This is compounded by the issue that Marjami is much, much more suitable for doing reives and therefore attracts people away from Yorcia. Seriously, if you wanted to design a good zone to do reives in, Marjami is what you would end up with. 7 colonization reives which can be bypassed using survival skills if necessary.

It's generally a pretty safe bet that the playerbase is at fault somehow but in this case, the developers introduced two vastly unequal zones. Nobody should be surprised that one is always at 100% colonization while the other is at 20%. It's not fair to blame the playerbase for this.

Also, there are many issues with Wildskeeper reives in general that have been touched on in this thread and the Battle Content thread. Namely, the battles are long and unenjoyable, require a specific job and ability in order to efficiently deal damage, have non-refundable entry fees, and have skewed drop rates which very often leave players with a dryad root as the only reward for an entire evening of work. It's not fun, and you're highly unlikely to get the item you want.

[detlef]

Here's the simple solution...

Make all Wildskeeper Reives INACTIVE if the Colonization Rate in the zone is below 50%. This will FORCE the player base to participate in Colonization Reives in the areas where Naakuals are located and prevent these 24+ hour marathon sessions I've been hearing so much about.This is not a good idea. On some servers, it simply may not be possible to sustain an adequate colonization rate for a given zone. You're basically locking players out of content. You're saying that Ceizak, Morimar, Hennetiel, Marjami, and Yorcia have to be maintained at 50% colonization rate for all time, otherwise those naakual fights will go the way of Fiat Lux.

The real issue is that it's fine for naakual strength to be inversely proportional to colonization rate. But that strength should manifest itself in terms of stats and hp, not damage taken.

[hiko]

We fight at low rates because Reives are boring, slow, and to easy with any meaningful amount of people to be of any fun. They made its DT so high we have to do Reives to make the fights doable. We did not make the boring content, and we also did not make the high DT, this is our fault?
I'll go with your logic
- XPing is boring and no more fun than reive
- farming delve monster is boring....
=> I should be able to successfully take part of a delve boss fight with a naked lvl1

and imo doing reive is not more boring than tryng to fight a monster and do less than 1%dmg/h

[Vivivivi]

Or, just get rid of the regen for Yumcax, and save it for his delve equivalent? It was my impression that Wildskeeper rieves were designed to be challenging, but also designed in a way where anyone and everyone can jump in and with determination, eventually defeat (in a moderately reasonable amount of time). Thus far, this is actually the case with the other four Naakuls, which I think were designed very well! Some of the most fun battles I took part in were in these other four zones and lasted at shortest 45 minutes, and generally at most 2-3 hours (acceptable in my opinion for these zone boss style fights).

By contrast, it was my understanding that Delve was supposed to be more difficult content that requires extremely well prepared players all following an agreed upon strategy.

THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE HERE:
I'm not opposed to challenging content, Delve is designed with a TIME LIMIT and is easy to repeat with entry items easy to obtain.

Wildskeeper rieves require a costly key item which takes individuals a significant time investment to obtain. Without the ability to homepoint, change jobs to form a better strategy, many players would rather try to stick it out and not waste their effort to get there in the first place, and as a result, we end up with marathons.

An important point in SE's defense I forgot to mention that I feel is important:
This is different than the original Pandemonium Warden in a big way- If PW was left unclaimed it would go away, so people had to actively hold it before Twilight gear existed, which led to unfortunate results.

While yes, technically the Yumcax battle I took part in lasted 27 hours total, there were significant lulls in activity where we all took extended breaks, so for that, I commend SE for at least building that aspect into this system. Also, while ~75k bayld does take time and effort to build, it is nowhere near as difficult as a Pandemondium Key when that was released.

[hiko]

Or, just get rid of the regen for Yumcax, and save it for his delve equivalent? It was my impression that Wildskeeper rieves were designed to be challenging, but also designed in a way where anyone and everyone can jump in and with determination, eventually defeat (in a moderately reasonable amount of time). Thus far, this is actually the case with the other four Naakuls, which I think were designed very well! Some of the most fun battles I took part in were in these other four zones and lasted at shortest 45 minutes, and generally at most 2-3 hours (acceptable in my opinion for these zone boss style fights).

=>WR are designed so people can learn delve boss specials and how to react, counter them
+

Funny thing is, MPKing you lot actually IS a valid tactic. It means you aren't doing things like keeping Yumcax in it's regen state and you actually got time to read the shouts. Yumcax's regen can be countered by dealing wind damage.

It's also possible they were trying to kill the people stuck in the terrain behind the Oops Moogle, so they could be tractored.

I was on a 25% col rate Yumcax that was at 98-100% HP for the first 30 minutes while people were getting into the reive. Then people started shouting in every known language (I swear there even was someone shouting in Klingon) what the tactic was, and it died 3.5 hours later (mostly due to low col rate). If you aren't doing wind damage, you kill adds. If you can't kill adds, you support those that do.



They only last that long if you don't know what you are doing. Which is pretty common at first.

[FrankReynolds]

=>WR are designed so people can learn delve boss specials and how to react, counter them
+

Ahhh... Yeah, 200 people fighting fodder mobs while summoner pets whack away at something big... So that's why we keep losing to tojil. We need another 190 people.

[Demon6324236]

I'll go with your logic
- XPing is boring and no more fun than reive
- farming delve monster is boring....
=> I should be able to successfully take part of a delve boss fight with a naked lvl1No, actually level is boring and that's why people leech up jobs. We take the shortest possible way to get through all of the boring BS thrown in our path so we can get to what is actually enjoyable. In the case of Reives, that means doing Wildkeepers no matter the % because we want the gear, and normal Reives are very boring to many people. At the same time, we all have to level, it must be done, no progress can be gotten without it, as such, we do level, but we do it in the shortest possible method, leeching. The two situations are not so different, but you are using a very poor example of them.

[Siviard]

This is not a good idea. On some servers, it simply may not be possible to sustain an adequate colonization rate for a given zone. You're basically locking players out of content. You're saying that Ceizak, Morimar, Hennetiel, Marjami, and Yorcia have to be maintained at 50% colonization rate for all time, otherwise those naakual fights will go the way of Fiat Lux.

The real issue is that it's fine for naakual strength to be inversely proportional to colonization rate. But that strength should manifest itself in terms of stats and hp, not damage taken.

You make it sound like it's impossible. With that attitude, it will be....

[Umichi]

you know for being six hours... didn't anyone think that they should all leave and focus on colonization rieves? I mean you did know the colonization rate effects damage at the time right?

sure you lose out on a run but in the long run your going to be making it back while also working on your cape.

[Rustic]

We fight at low rates because Reives are boring, slow, and to easy with any meaningful amount of people to be of any fun. They made its DT so high we have to do Reives to make the fights doable. We did not make the boring content, and we also did not make the high DT, this is our fault?

So you're complaining about having an incredibly slow and insane fight because you thought it was boring to do what it took to make it a quick and easy one.

This is akin to complaining one can't use a butter knife to properly saw a tree in half, one-handed when you could have gotten a chainsaw running instead.

Chalk this one up to human stupidity, nothing more. S-E doesn't deserve flak for players doing stuff the dumb way when the smart way is clearly marked.

[Vivivivi]

So you're complaining about having an incredibly slow and insane fight because you thought it was boring to do what it took to make it a quick and easy one.

This is akin to complaining one can't use a butter knife to properly saw a tree in half, one-handed when you could have gotten a chainsaw running instead.

Chalk this one up to human stupidity, nothing more. S-E doesn't deserve flak for players doing stuff the dumb way when the smart way is clearly marked.

Part of the issue with regards to Yumcax specifically, is players can defeat him in low numbers at low colonization rates with the correct strategy. Unfortunately since WKR's are free for alls, anyone can join, and a single player can train all of the AOE magic casting mobs over to the corsairs and summoners (intentionally or not) and cause a complete wipe. You cannot kick that person from an alliance if they're not in one to begin with, and due to it's regen, it sets back a significant amount of progress.

[Tennotsukai]

Well, I just found out the JPs had come in and won Yumcax for all of us NAs that were in there for 16 hours trying to kill. I'm glad I d/c'd while I fell asleep. I hope you all sense the sarcasm there, because this sort of crap needs changed. It's not the lack of competency of the NA players; it is also the lack of player base for NA players, even during prime time. I really hope you developers understand that these events will need to be changed in the near future when ffxiv takes even more of the player base making these events even more difficult to complete.

[FrankReynolds]

No, actually level is boring and that's why people leech up jobs. We take the shortest possible way to get through all of the boring BS thrown in our path so we can get to what is actually enjoyable. In the case of Reives, that means doing Wildkeepers no matter the % because we want the gear, and normal Reives are very boring to many people. At the same time, we all have to level, it must be done, no progress can be gotten without it, as such, we do level, but we do it in the shortest possible method, leeching. The two situations are not so different, but you are using a very poor example of them.


Reives wouldn't even be that bad if they were closer together. 75% of the time spent doing reives consists of running from point A to point B over and over. If they had put them all in the center of the zone so people could easily move from one to the next, it wouldn't be so bad. Or maybe just make everyone pop onto a chocobo at the end of every fight :P

[detlef]

You make it sound like it's impossible. With that attitude, it will be....No, it really isn't reasonable. Please keep in mind that server populations vary widely and peoples' interests in-game also vary widely. Tell me about your server. Were you able to keep Hennetiel above 50% colonization before Marjami and Yorcia were introduced? Was Shiva somehow immune to players losing interest maintaining bivouacs in Morimar? On Valefor, Marjami is currently at 100% colonization while Yorcia is at 24%. I daresay the only reason Yorcia is even that high is because people are after capes and Marjami is too crowded.

Also, what's with your "attitude" comment? You act as if this is real life and we should all be working together for a common cause. Sorry, but no this is a game which people play for social and entertainment purposes. Banding the whole server together to fight a tree for 4 or 12 hours is not something anybody should have to do in a game. One person is still only one person. In the context of wildskeeper reives, the only way one person makes a difference is by wiping the entire group.

[Rustic]

Part of the issue with regards to Yumcax specifically, is players can defeat him in low numbers at low colonization rates with the correct strategy. Unfortunately since WKR's are free for alls, anyone can join, and a single player can train all of the AOE magic casting mobs over to the corsairs and summoners (intentionally or not) and cause a complete wipe. You cannot kick that person from an alliance if they're not in one to begin with, and due to it's regen, it sets back a significant amount of progress.

So in other words, it's -still- player stupidity, and likely outright griefing as well via MPK. Lowest common denominator and all that...and apparently, the JP button was pressed FTW anyway, meaning the complaining group of players is -doubly- incompetent for failing so hard.

The content doesn't need to be made easier, the players responsible for failing need to step it up because clearly, if you're seeing another group of players- and I don't care what nationality - who can clean it up when you mess it up, the content isn't the problem, the people doing it are.

Edit note: I've been seeing this kind of whining since the first NA linkshells were in need of diapers because "Waaah, we can't kill Fafnir.". It needs to stop, but I'm sure it won't.

[Vivivivi]

So in other words, it's -still- player stupidity, and likely outright griefing as well via MPK. Lowest common denominator and all that...and apparently, the JP button was pressed FTW anyway, meaning the complaining group of players is -doubly- incompetent for failing so hard.

The content doesn't need to be made easier, the players responsible for failing need to step it up because clearly, if you're seeing another group of players- and I don't care what nationality - who can clean it up when you mess it up, the content isn't the problem, the people doing it are.

Edit note: I've been seeing this kind of whining since the first NA linkshells were in need of diapers because "Waaah, we can't kill Fafnir.". It needs to stop, but I'm sure it won't.

That's incorrect actually. Yumcax was first engaged by a majority of JPs, held next by mostly EU players, continued by mostly NA players, and finished again by more JPs IN ADDITION TO the NA and EU players, nearly 300 at ToD.

I don't think the content is too hard, in fact, I think it's adjusted quite nicely, a six man group can eliminate adds fairly effectively, and with a few tanks, Yumcax hardley goes on a rampage. The first run I went on ended 3 hours after it started.

What I do think is that there are fundamental issues in the mechanics for Yumcax- a time consuming entry item, the ability for a single person outside of an alliance to set back the progress made by dozens (repeatedly), and the fact that it regens despite anyones ability to remove offending players from the alliance.

On my part, lesson learned, I'll never participate in something like that for that long ever again. But I see value in communicating to the development team an important flaw in their latest content release, and how people are attempting to take it on.

[Demon6324236]

Chalk this one up to human stupidity, nothing more. S-E doesn't deserve flak for players doing stuff the dumb way when the smart way is clearly marked.They deserve it for making a boring event that was created as a central part to the expansion, continuously making it worse and worse with each adjustment in most cases, making the rewards very random, and then making it required to do as a server just so you can raise the rate up to good amounts. Notice none of the complaints about fights are really about Hurkan? Its because like someone said before, they made Marjami much more appealing than Yorcia by far because they took Yorcia and gave it a shit map, less Reives, more distance between Reives, and made the zone a maze to get through. So if you have to do Reives, where would you go? Easy, you go to Marjami. Marjami has a near constant capped rate on Phoenix it seems, no one complains about that one. Yorcia sucks, maybe if they created the zones a little more balanced instead of one good one and one annoyingly stupid one, complains would die down. We would see people doing Reives in both. Instead, thanks to SE's mistakes with the whole thing, yes, we try to skip Reives that we can. Is this partly our fault? Yes, but is it also massively their fault as well? Also yes, because while we may be avoiding it, they are the ones who designed it, and we should not be blamed for not wanting to just deal with what they put in no matter how poor it is. It would be like blaming me for falling through the floor of a house that was recently built for me, even though the people who made the house royally fucked it up, and caused the incident through their own failure.

[Gippo]

If you don't like it taking 6 hours, take people to do reives in Yorcia to raise the colonization rate.

if you are afraid that you'll "miss the boat" and wait to the point where no one wants to do it, then just suck it up and deal with it.

Don't complain about things you can't control, and focus on what you can.

The only thing that will change it is if SE makes capes drop in Yorcia.

[Vivivivi]

If you don't like it taking 6 hours, take people to do reives in Yorcia to raise the colonization rate.

if you are afraid that you'll "miss the boat" and wait to the point where no one wants to do it, then just suck it up and deal with it.

Don't complain about things you can't control, and focus on what you can.

The only thing that will change it is if SE makes capes drop in Yorcia.

Alright I'm just repeating my opinion at this point, so for the last time, I'm not complaining about it taking 6 hours, I'm talking about a system which allows for 6, 16, or even 27 hour long battles to persist, and as reported by people on other servers, Yumcax fights are regularly extending into 10+ hour events.

I'm not even complaining really, I'm calling attention to what is happening, and proposing that if an event is designed to allow anyone to participate AND requires a significant time investment to gain entry, AND can be screwed up by 1 person AND the progress made by literally hundreds of others becomes undone (the regen factor), perhaps it is worth looking into adjusting. We're not talking about Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden, we're talking about a zone boss.

That's all.

[FrankReynolds]

If you don't like it taking 6 hours, take people to do reives in Yorcia to raise the colonization rate.

if you are afraid that you'll "miss the boat" and wait to the point where no one wants to do it, then just suck it up and deal with it.

Don't complain about things you can't control, and focus on what you can.

The only thing that will change it is if SE makes capes drop in Yorcia.
FTFY
I agree with your advice and would advise you to do the same. People won't stop complaining, so shut up with the complaints about complaining and focus on what you can change.

PS. This site is for feedback. That includes complaints.

[Karbuncle]

and complaints about complaints are technically feedback in regards to it being ones feelings of the activity being correct where as the other is in regards to it being incorrect so yah.

IDK, Devils advocating i guess.

[FrankReynolds]

and complaints about complaints are technically feedback in regards to it being ones feelings of the activity being correct where as the other is in regards to it being incorrect so yah.

IDK, Devils advocating i guess.

Sorta. He never really suggested that anyone was wrong about what they were complaining about. He just said "here's how you can deal with it since it won't get changed. Now be quiet.".

It was somewhat constructive in that he did offer some advice I guess.

[Edyth]

I wish the Naakuals had "massive" DT like you guys claim. They don't.

Qutrubs have massive DT (damage taken). Naakuals have extremely low DT.

[Karbuncle]

thats just semantics at best as it can easily be interpreted both ways. DT being unspecified in reference to a stat in FFXI could refer to DT+ or DT- in this scope of conversation and you know it.

[Daemon]

If you don't like it taking 6 hours, take people to do reives in Yorcia to raise the colonization rate.

if you are afraid that you'll "miss the boat" and wait to the point where no one wants to do it, then just suck it up and deal with it.

Don't complain about things you can't control, and focus on what you can.

The only thing that will change it is if SE makes capes drop in Yorcia.

Some of the things in this game have ridiculous ways to make you waste hours in the day doing absolutely nothing, (like waiting 3 days for 1 NM to pop). And for things that require you to participate 27 hours is asking for a serious death wish to players who push themselves beyond what the human body can handle.

There are true stories of people dying for playing online games for several days at end without sleep. If it really takes 27 hours just to participate in 1 event, then there is seriously something wrong.

It shouldn't be an issue to state these concerns to a company who even put comments stating "Do not forget about your work, friends, family etc on the login screen.

Somewhere a balance in standard needs to be met between us as the players and the game we are supporting, in the same way as life has standards based on common sense.

There is a reason certain prescription drugs are labeled under controlled substances because if it were freely available, people regardless will abuse whats made to help medically than feed to those who use and abuse it for recreational use.

From that example, making an event lasting 27 hours will be abused by anyone who even put more than 6 hours into the event being that they wont waste their time earning the proper amount of Bayld to enter, spend valuable time to contribute to the fight only to give up?

[Umichi]

Some of the things in this game have ridiculous ways to make you waste hours in the day doing absolutely nothing, (like waiting 3 days for 1 NM to pop). And for things that require you to participate 27 hours is asking for a serious death wish to players who push themselves beyond what the human body can handle.

There are true stories of people dying for playing online games for several days at end without sleep. If it really takes 27 hours just to participate in 1 event, then there is seriously something wrong.

It shouldn't be an issue to state these concerns to a company who even put comments stating "Do not forget about your work, friends, family etc on the login screen.

Somewhere a balance in standard needs to be met between us as the players and the game we are supporting, in the same way as life has standards based on common sense.

There is a reason certain prescription drugs are labeled under controlled substances because if it were freely available, people regardless will abuse whats made to help medically than feed to those who use and abuse it for recreational use.

From that example, making an event lasting 27 hours will be abused by anyone who even put more than 6 hours into the event being that they wont waste their time earning the proper amount of Bayld to enter, spend valuable time to contribute to the fight only to give up?

SE's already stated in the past that if a fight is taking longer than 4-5 hours to beat.. you are probably fighting the NM wrong... Hence why they introduced depop timers for a majority of NM's, other mobs like PW and AV don't have depop timers because they require time to even figure out how to beat them. SE has said it themselves... you play at your own risk... and spending 27 hours trying to down a boss is a sign that you are both doing it wrong and should wait until you either find more competant players to do it with, or actually do the content like it was intended to be done asand actually do the rieves to lower the -DT again 27 hours would of been plenty of time for what 500+players to get colonization percentile up a bit....

Player stupidity might be why your not beating the WKR but your all just as stupid for staying in there for that long... Bayld is a renweable resource...

[Traxus]

Killing the WKR isn't any better than not killing them in my experience. 9 hurkan kills and 5 yumcax, and all I have is useless grip/cape and bullet/ranged attack neck I'll never use.

Purely RNG loot in a battle system where the fights have huge entry costs, and generally take many hours is awesome, especially when useless items (grip/cape), are intentionally set as the highest drop rate items, just to dick players over in an attempt to keep them paying and playing.

[FrankReynolds]

SE's already stated in the past that if a fight is taking longer than 4-5 hours to beat.. you are probably fighting the NM wrong... Hence why they introduced depop timers for a majority of NM's, other mobs like PW and AV don't have depop timers because they require time to even figure out how to beat them. SE has said it themselves... you play at your own risk... and spending 27 hours trying to down a boss is a sign that you are both doing it wrong and should wait until you either find more competant players to do it with, or actually do the content like it was intended to be done asand actually do the rieves to lower the -DT again 27 hours would of been plenty of time for what 500+players to get colonization percentile up a bit....

Player stupidity might be why your not beating the WKR but your all just as stupid for staying in there for that long... Bayld is a renweable resource...

If the "Correct" tactic involves convincing a thousand other people to do reives and Fighting a giant baddie while simultaneously instructing 200 people in 5-10 different languages on how to defeat a monster, and praying to god that not only do they understand your instructions, but that none of them are a-holes who love to MPK people, then yes. It is the developers fault.

They can say anything they want, but it's still their fault because they built in the mechanics that made it extremely easy for things to go wrong.

[Garota]

Hour number 6 here for Yumcax, 160 people, Delve weapons galore, healing, support, Aegis's Ochains, geos, corsairs, still at around 30% health.

If this is an indication of what is to come for delve in these new zones, I'm out.

When I read the title, I thought this was going to be another Summoner Cait Sith Atomos thread. So yeah, 6 hours is not long enough compared to a couple of years.

[detlef]

SE's already stated in the past that if a fight is taking longer than 4-5 hours to beat.. you are probably fighting the NM wrong... Hence why they introduced depop timers for a majority of NM's, other mobs like PW and AV don't have depop timers because they require time to even figure out how to beat them. SE has said it themselves... you play at your own risk... and spending 27 hours trying to down a boss is a sign that you are both doing it wrong and should wait until you either find more competant players to do it with, or actually do the content like it was intended to be done asand actually do the rieves to lower the -DT again 27 hours would of been plenty of time for what 500+players to get colonization percentile up a bit....I’ve already explained in many other threads, but the reason that the colonization rate is low in Yorcia is entirely due to the developers. When you introduce two new zones and one much more fun, accessible, and has many colonization reives while the other is cruel, unforgiving, and inaccessible, you can’t throw your hands up and wonder why players prefer one zone over the other.


Player stupidity might be why your not beating the WKR but your all just as stupid for staying in there for that long... Bayld is a renweable resource...That’s easy for a hardcore player to say. A hardcore player like you can just farm up however much bayld you want. 75k bayld might be nothing to you because you can spend 12 hours of your day playing continuously, but what about casuals like us who only have a few hours here and there? The problem is that hardcores like you forget that casuals play the game too.

[Umichi]

I'm nowhere near hardcore. I dabble in casual and endgame but I neither have the gear to be hardcore or the connections for it in the first place. (i just barely did my first WKR which was morimar the other day)

75k bayld is actually quite alot to me.

And from the looks of things that Yorica has alot of lore surrounding it and I'm sure will be a primary zone for missions and quests to come, why would they make a primary zone easy at least if that's the case..? and the layout isn't hard once you get used to it. I can safely navigate to 2 rieves now without really looking at the map and I understand the map enough now that looking at it isn't to much of an eyesore..

And yes the mobs are hard but your also progressing to more harder content... this just means that people are hitting their limit with gear because they can't beat the mobs in the zone....

Also l2 go with more than 2 people out there, colonization rieves are meant to be tackled as a group.. so all this solo bs crap the people keep trying to do for rieves will not be effective for very long...imho the rieves in yorica are well built, three mobs on each side, walls are decent HP and decent spacing for fighting.

The forest itself... I wouldn't call it bad designing... since we don't have dungeons to really run through of course they're gonna be a lot of twists and turns and dangerous mobs.... I mean this place houses something very special to the world...

IDK about you but I have fun frollicking around killing IT mobs solo on my drg (mind you that's kinda slow right now because I don't have a delve weapon still stuck at 146 damage chanar xyston)


once I finish up a certain few WKR's I believe I can pick what I want from a list of items droped from monsters in delve? If that's true ill be doing that relatively soon while I'm working on my cape and building up some plasm.

I should also mention that 6 imprints nets you at least 12k bayld thats 1/7th the amount needed currently at my standing with all the coalitions to collect my KI for a top end WKR like yorica. I also believe my world is killing yumcax in a timely manner

[Umichi]

If the "Correct" tactic involves convincing a thousand other people to do reives and Fighting a giant baddie while simultaneously instructing 200 people in 5-10 different languages on how to defeat a monster, and praying to god that not only do they understand your instructions, but that none of them are a-holes who love to MPK people, then yes. It is the developers fault.

They can say anything they want, but it's still their fault because they built in the mechanics that made it extremely easy for things to go wrong.

guess no one got the news that audolin was an endgamers paradise... intentionally created for lvl 99's to have a challenge, If people can't take a hint that they are not doing things right within 24 hours of a boss not being dead "Still" then their brains must be made of fluff cause as soon as 4ish hours (thats generally my max) hits and no progress is made I stop playing endgame. It's that simple...people keep complaining about "oh my precious bayld" or "Oh my precious human created ethereal time" but they forget you can always come back and play another day... after all it's a game.

Sooner or later people will get the hint that SE is done holding peoples hands... I like the way this content is built there is progression and there are clear stop-gaps to that progression. how fast you plow through that depends on your skill and competance of other players...

and language has always been a barrier, we all know JP don't like us playing their games and they obviously are more structured than us....

And Abyssea imho was nothing but a glorified hamster wheel with the speed set on turbo and only hamsters who were painted gold got to ride it efficiently. And from that hamster wheel we obtained a playerbase who has zero clue on what it's like to actualy do challenging ffxi content. People were complaining about sky and sea just the same back in the day especially sea since there was clear stop gap progression via missions, requiring specific set-ups or gtfo anyone else was riding on curtails.

[Umichi]

and as far as MPK goes.... well IDK about that. people are dbags sometimes... I think that instead of monsters they shoulda created like objectives that needed to be completed to help aide killing the boss, instead of a field of monsters just for TP and a little annoyance

[Rustic]

And Abyssea imho was nothing but a glorified hamster wheel with the speed set on turbo and only hamsters who were painted gold got to ride it efficiently. And from that hamster wheel we obtained a playerbase who has zero clue on what it's like to actualy do challenging ffxi content. People were complaining about sky and sea just the same back in the day especially sea since there was clear stop gap progression via missions, requiring specific set-ups or gtfo anyone else was riding on curtails.

*dingdingdingdingding*

And that's something a lot of people don't realize: That it's not just you that has to get in shape for this. It's a whole bunch of people, if not an attitude that develops across a broad swatch of a server...and Abyssea served to destroy that.

It was, from the viewpoint of making a playerbase good to go for this sorta thing, the worst possible kind of addition to the game. We'd be more ready for Abyssea with the server population that was around WoTG, plus the JP population has remained more stable than the non-JP one...meaning there's more groups capable of handling the new-old style of the game.

[detlef]

once I finish up a certain few WKR's I believe I can pick what I want from a list of items droped from monsters in delve? If that's true ill be doing that relatively soon while I'm working on my cape and building up some plasm.Actually WK and Delve have nothing in common other than the alliance leader needing a WK crest KI in order to enter a Delve fracture. So once you kill all 5 naakuals, you will not be getting an Upukirex. You will however be able to get a shiny Tlamini which is nearly as good. Nearly. Just a cut below. Barely discernible.

Also this quest is not confirmed as repeatable so as far as we know, you'll only get to pick one drop from each tier of naakuals.


I should also mention that 6 imprints nets you at least 12k bayld thats 1/7th the amount needed currently at my standing with all the coalitions to collect my KI for a top end WKR like yorica. I also believe my world is killing yumcax in a timely manner6 imps can yield 12k bayld, but you have to keep in mind how many times you may have to kill them to get the item you want. Yumcax and Hurkan have 6 drops each which are skewed toward the two accessories. If you want the armor or weapons, the drop rate is less that 1/6. I know people who are 0/11 on the item they want and there are probably worse horror stories out there.

[FrankReynolds]

guess no one got the news that audolin was an endgamers paradise... intentionally created for lvl 99's to have a challenge, If people can't take a hint that they are not doing things right within 24 hours of a boss not being dead "Still" then their brains must be made of fluff cause as soon as 4ish hours (thats generally my max) hits and no progress is made I stop playing endgame. It's that simple...people keep complaining about "oh my precious bayld" or "Oh my precious human created ethereal time" but they forget you can always come back and play another day... after all it's a game.

So you don't care if your time is wasted because you are going to live forever and are in no rush to have fun? I'm not sure if congratulations or condolences are in order. I'll just offer both.


Sooner or later people will get the hint that SE is done holding peoples hands... I like the way this content is built there is progression and there are clear stop-gaps to that progression. how fast you plow through that depends on your skill and competance of other players...

So you actually like the idea that you might not be able to get something done because I am lazy? You don't mind never getting a clear because I didn't do any reives in that zone? Yeah, sure...


and language has always been a barrier, we all know JP don't like us playing their games and they obviously are more structured than us....

So basically learn JP or gtfo of the game then? Brilliant.


And Abyssea imho was nothing but a glorified hamster wheel with the speed set on turbo and only hamsters who were painted gold got to ride it efficiently. And from that hamster wheel we obtained a playerbase who has zero clue on what it's like to actualy do challenging ffxi content. People were complaining about sky and sea just the same back in the day especially sea since there was clear stop gap progression via missions, requiring specific set-ups or gtfo anyone else was riding on curtails.

So basically just get rid of everyone who isn't awesome and doesn't speak Japanese yeah? Sounds like a recipe for success.

[Umichi]

So you don't care if your time is wasted because you are going to live forever and are in no rush to have fun? I'm not sure if congratulations or condolences are in order. I'll just offer both.



So you actually like the idea that you might not be able to get something done because I am lazy? You don't mind never getting a clear because I didn't do any reives in that zone? Yeah, sure...



So basically learn JP or gtfo of the game then? Brilliant.



So basically just get rid of everyone who isn't awesome and doesn't speak Japanese yeah? Sounds like a recipe for success.

1) I do have fun... It's called enjoying the content I can do and pushing myself on occasion to do higher up content to continue progressing and achieving a reasonable set-up for being a good drg/whm like I always enjoy playing running around killing monsters and doing quests for my friends. Rushing things does not = fun. If i complete everything in a day, week, or month; what would I have to look forward to? Not only that but I can't complete all the content I wish to do in one day anyways.

2) yes because once you stop playing SE will tone down the difficulty to match the playerbase represented across all servers. I will eventually unlock higher gear and find players who wish to play with them doing the same content. currently I can't touch delve cause nm's are tough and I def do not have the gear yet, however I am progressing through outside NM's which is nice.... but plasm farming is stupid... i mean going into a fracture to kill monsters 50 plasm each? sure it's plasm but id much rather be spamming NMs outside for 500 each instead of abusing a mechanic clearly meant to help give players TP without taping the bosses. Is it illegal? IDK SE sure is fighting it... but they aren't saying it's not ok so *shrugs* to each their own

3) http://shigemo.com/FFXI/nihongo_guide.html ohaithere

4)No it means people need to get their shit together because this is what real FFXI content is supposed to be like. if we hada bigger playerbase we would not be having such problems with nakaals and lack of shouts for nm runs etc etc.. but instead you got the EGLS people and the non EGLS people. non EGLS people need to start using commen sense and l2 play an MMO as anyone with at least a years worth of experience should know how a party or raid works and the mechanics behind the healers/support DD and tanks... especially knowing their jobs and capabilities. you also need to stop having elitest arsehats requiring nothing but all the most tedious of programs (some of them go against the ToS and goes against the spirit of the game) multiple item sets and require you to have specific jobs and yet again like the sea and sky ages and beyond force you to come as them and make your life miserable just so you can aquire a piece of gear for the job you barely play in Endgame anyways....

[Umichi]

and #3 is a gift from me to you and the rest of ya'll

[Tennotsukai]

To all of you people saying this content makes sense or that people should stop being stupid and learn to be elite I say this: get a freaking job or a girl... then comment back.

Lol, at least understand that if a server can not support enough people to do this event efficiently at any given time then se should definitively reevaluate this content.

Also, 12 hour fights, or even 4 hour fights, should never ever happen in an mmo.

[Mahoro]

To all of you people saying this content makes sense or that people should stop being stupid and learn to be elite I say this: get a freaking job or a girl... then comment back.

Lol, at least understand that if a server can not support enough people to do this event efficiently at any given time then se should definitively reevaluate this content.

Also, 12 hour fights, or even 4 hour fights, should never ever happen in an mmo.

I don't think they were intended to be 12 or 4 hour fights.

Also, is there an equivalent to Godwin's Law for playing the RL card?

[FrankReynolds]

I don't think they were intended to be 12 or 4 hour fights.

Also, is there an equivalent to Godwin's Law for playing the RL card?

Yes. The longer the thread goes on, the higher the probability that some d-bag will say "Doing X is easy. You just have to do X for way longer than a sane person would want to do anything and you'll get what you want..." and then claim that anyone not dedicating at least 40/hrs a week to the game is a freeloader who just wants everything easy mode.

[Mahoro]

Maybe if this were 2004, sure. At least people aren't saying that anymore.

[Rustic]

To all of you people saying this content makes sense or that people should stop being stupid and learn to be elite I say this: get a freaking job or a girl... then comment back.

Lol, at least understand that if a server can not support enough people to do this event efficiently at any given time then se should definitively reevaluate this content.

Also, 12 hour fights, or even 4 hour fights, should never ever happen in an mmo.

Full time job, married, widowered, 8-year relationship and counting. But drag-out fights like that happen because people are stubborn and don't want to quit when they realize that the only rate of the mob's healthbar declined is measurable in is "percent per hour", rather than the far, far more quick results a proper fight actually is. That is, they think that just coming and starting the fight without the proper preparations = they'll be able to hack it out anyway.

If a fight drags that far out, I'm not one to go "Oh, goodie, if I stay three hours more, I MIGHT get something"...I'll go do something productive instead. Some players are masochistic that way. I'm not. I know what it's like when it's being done right, I've seen what it's like when it's done wrong, and I'm not wasting my time to clean up after them.

Again, it's common knowledge what it takes to make the fight work properly. If you want to empty the ocean with a teaspoon, be my guest- I'm not hanging around to help you on your epic journey of derp.

[Vivivivi]

/facepalm

Alright, one last time I swear.

Battle strategies are not the problem with regard to Yumcax specifically. Groups are properly getting windshots and windblade on it to break the regen shield etc.

The problem is that the following things all exist at the same time:
- The entry item requires a significant time investment
- The mob can and will regen to full if not constantly dealt with
- Adds in the area have devastating AOE spells
- The battle can be entered by anyone and all mobs are targetable regardless of party or alliance affiliation
- Similarly, AOE spells will do damage to everyone regardless of whether or not they have aggro

Because of the combination of these things is why we are seeing Yumcax fights extend well beyond a reasonable time-frame. You can have a fabulous setup of 18 people, two Aegis paladins, corsairs, summoners, healers, buffers, DDs, and everything can be going smoothly if prepared properly.

The major problem:
There is absolutely nothing that group can do if a single person acting on their own decides to join, and pull/link/aggro a few Stonega 3 casting mobs over to that group (intentionally or not). The alliance has two options- ignore the mobs, which WILL aggro them after their initial target(s) are defeated, or engage them. If they are unsuccessful in defeating every last mob that aggro'd the alliance, those mobs will then proceed to KO each and every last alliance member.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions on whether or not they feel they should just leave the battlefield at that point, that's fine, no one is forcing anyone to play the game for an unreasonable amount of time. However, the fact of the matter is that many people are not choosing to leave, and as a result you are left with little choice but to "stick it out" if you want the win.

This is my final rant on the subject because I have nothing new to contribute to it, I am just rephrasing all of my earlier points.

Here is what I see. The Yumcax battle itself is designed just fine. The NM and the adds are not too difficult to deal with when prepared, and everyone works together. It is the combination of the bullet points outlined above that is problematic. Putting myself in the dev team's shoes for a moment, I have to imagine it is difficult to anticipate how these scenarios are actually playing out. The battlefield has a "safe" recovery spot, if everyone is on the same page. The reality is, people enter the battlefield constantly, make a mistake, and repeatedly wipe dozens of other players who are trying to recover.

I have multiple constructive ideas on how to prevent these marathon battles, none of which involve "nerfing" the fight itself because I don't feel that's necessary to do. Maybe the simplest one is most obvious- alter the regen dispelling to either last longer or permanently break. It doesn't fix MPK issues, as I would have to guess altering the mobs behaviors would be a much more involved adjustment. What it does do is prevent progress from reversing itself because one or two individuals slipped up.

In the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump, "and that's all I've got to say about that."

[Sparthos]

To anyone defending Colonization as it stands: You're insane. Please consult a mental health physician immediately. Tell them you escaped from a POW camp.

Seekers of Adoulin exists within a declining period in the history of FFXI and that means to most of us still sticking out that we've survived where others have not and it's upon the backs of the devs to create content that gels with the current state of the game. 20hr Wildskeeper Reives and Reives in general where people leech for hours on end rather than participate aren't exactly what players find fun and engaging content.

This isn't 2005. And even in 2005 you didn't have 15+ hr battles against a notorious monster. Even the longest Tiamats and Jormungands I recall in my personal adventures dragged out to the 8-9hr mark and that was mostly one part ego and another part horrible gaming from the parties involved. SE noted these battles going on too long and decided to start capping battles between 1-2hrs for the sake of the base and as their responsibility as developers. Why the current shift back to unlimited battles?

Wildskeepers are supposed to be public, 'easy' (Relative to Delve) battles and should be 2hrs tops. The Colonization system isn't working because Yorcia Weald has the worst map ever churned out by SE, making the Promyvion coffee stain maps look like great works of cartography by comparison. How exactly do you encourage people to do Reives when you:

-Can't see where you're f*king going.
-Can't see where the Reives are happening.
-Have random ass trees blocking the paths.

[detlef]

Full time job, married, widowered, 8-year relationship and counting. But drag-out fights like that happen because people are stubborn and don't want to quit when they realize that the only rate of the mob's healthbar declined is measurable in is "percent per hour", rather than the far, far more quick results a proper fight actually is. That is, they think that just coming and starting the fight without the proper preparations = they'll be able to hack it out anyway.

If a fight drags that far out, I'm not one to go "Oh, goodie, if I stay three hours more, I MIGHT get something"...I'll go do something productive instead. Some players are masochistic that way. I'm not. I know what it's like when it's being done right, I've seen what it's like when it's done wrong, and I'm not wasting my time to clean up after them.You have such a condescending attitude in all of your posts. Once people are at the fight, they are pretty much committed to the fight. Most people can't afford to warp and try a different strategy because 75k bayld is a significant investment. Once you're in the battlefield, that's it, you're not leaving. If the battle looks like it's not going well, realistically you have three options: keep slogging along, afk, or log out. In most cases, warping is not an option. On my server, the general attitude is to tough it out and hope the JPs with their army of CORs log on and kill it. That's just reality.

[Mahoro]

I think the overriding theme on which people agree here is that the Yorcia Weald reives and zone inhibit colonization rate, thereby contributing to the long marathon Yumcax sessions which SE did not really intend. This thread would not really be in existence but for those premises.

There are resources out there to make Yorcia more accessible, such as Spira's superlative maps. However, most people don't take advantage of these for whatever reason. Thus, it appears SE should do some work to make Yorcia a bit more accessible, else players will continue to try to circumvent the colonization system and subject themselves to marathon Yumcax sessions.

[Daemon]

You have such a condescending attitude in all of your posts. Once people are at the fight, they are pretty much committed to the fight. Most people can't afford to warp and try a different strategy because 75k bayld is a significant investment. Once you're in the battlefield, that's it, you're not leaving. If the battle looks like it's not going well, realistically you have three options: keep slogging along, afk, or log out. In most cases, warping is not an option. On my server, the general attitude is to tough it out and hope the JPs with their army of CORs log on and kill it. That's just reality.

Yeah but he is probably coming off with the same attitude that everyone else has. That its ridiculous to make us waste so much time earning 75k Bayld to purchase 1 ki and then dedicate countless hours fighting a boss when in reality every human being has a life and can't be glued stuck to a computer screen all day and night in hopes of earning an item.

Just he knows the difference in a good setup and a bad one which could extend the time further and make time wasted even more. I don't blame him, I wouldn't want to waste my time trying to make something happen if I can see that the party is a fail.

And we know there are many players eagerly wanting the best and show up not even prepared with the right gear, gear sets, food, meds, expecting to hop on the win train.

[Xantavia]

If a fight drags that far out, I'm not one to go "Oh, goodie, if I stay three hours more, I MIGHT get something"...I'll go do something productive instead. Some players are masochistic that way. I'm not. I know what it's like when it's being done right, I've seen what it's like when it's done wrong, and I'm not wasting my time to clean up after them.

Again, it's common knowledge what it takes to make the fight work properly. If you want to empty the ocean with a teaspoon, be my guest- I'm not hanging around to help you on your epic journey of derp.
I don't know why people don't get this. When I went to get serpentes cuffs(?) from the corse, I originally tried as thf. I was slowly taking him down but after about 10 minutes it didn't feel worth it. I'd make a dent, then accidentally heal him back up. I decided my attack speed wasn't worth the hassle of trying to kill him. So I warped out and came as another job. This time I killed him in a reasonable amount of time. Sure, it didn't cost me anything other than a free warp scroll and some cruor, but there is a time to cut your losses and rethink strategy.

[Daemon]

I don't know why people don't get this. When I went to get serpentes cuffs(?) from the corse, I originally tried as thf. I was slowly taking him down but after about 10 minutes it didn't feel worth it. I'd make a dent, then accidentally heal him back up. I decided my attack speed wasn't worth the hassle of trying to kill him. So I warped out and came as another job. This time I killed him in a reasonable amount of time. Sure, it didn't cost me anything other than a free warp scroll and some cruor, but there is a time to cut your losses and rethink strategy.

And that works when you are the one in control. Not when you depend on several people as a team. I understand his point of view. It's like trying to do a plasm party with people who only have af3, no REM. Maybe waiting 2 hours for a party only to net 2-3k plasm is ok for some if the group can even hit mobs or survive but to others would be a waste of time.

Is AF3 bad? No but it just doesn't cut it and at the current state that would be considered undergeared.

If you obviously join a party that doesn't know what they are doing and are not well prepared. After a few hours of trying would make sense to give up being that he already gave it a shot, why waste more time going on any further?

It would only be exhausting to wait it out especially if the rate of failure is higher than success. I'd imagine some people wouldn't want to waste any more resources, food, meds, to continue.

Also you can't leave Wildskeeper Reives and just come back and try again without paying 75k Bayld for another Ki.

Finally, there is no guarantee he will even get an item so there is no motivation to further push anyone in a fail group.

[detlef]

I don't know why people don't get this. When I went to get serpentes cuffs(?) from the corse, I originally tried as thf. I was slowly taking him down but after about 10 minutes it didn't feel worth it. I'd make a dent, then accidentally heal him back up. I decided my attack speed wasn't worth the hassle of trying to kill him. So I warped out and came as another job. This time I killed him in a reasonable amount of time. Sure, it didn't cost me anything other than a free warp scroll and some cruor, but there is a time to cut your losses and rethink strategy.If it was possible to warp out of Wildskeeper Reives with no penalty, players would likely be more open to regrouping and rethinking strategy. However, there is the small matter of the entry fee, which is obviously significant enough to deter the vast majority of players from leaving the battlefield. I don't know why people don't get this.

[Fynlar]

Sure, it didn't cost me anything other than a free warp scroll and some cruor,

You pretty much defeated your own argument there

[Vivivivi]

Again, the issue is not that the strategy for Yumcax is wrong.

The issue is teams with the right strategy have no control over some random person coming in, bringing 3 stonega 3 casting mobs over to them and causing a wipe. This coupled with the fact that the mob regens, and the entrance item is time consuming to obtain is why people are staying for such extended periods of time.

[FrankReynolds]

On a related note, Google translate suggests that they are at least working on making the map of yorica less of a piece of crap. Apparently the Japanese complain just as much as we do.

[Umichi]

/facepalm

Alright, one last time I swear.

Battle strategies are not the problem with regard to Yumcax specifically. Groups are properly getting windshots and windblade on it to break the regen shield etc.

The problem is that the following things all exist at the same time:
- The entry item requires a significant time investment
- The mob can and will regen to full if not constantly dealt with
- Adds in the area have devastating AOE spells
- The battle can be entered by anyone and all mobs are targetable regardless of party or alliance affiliation
- Similarly, AOE spells will do damage to everyone regardless of whether or not they have aggro

Because of the combination of these things is why we are seeing Yumcax fights extend well beyond a reasonable time-frame. You can have a fabulous setup of 18 people, two Aegis paladins, corsairs, summoners, healers, buffers, DDs, and everything can be going smoothly if prepared properly.

The major problem:
There is absolutely nothing that group can do if a single person acting on their own decides to join, and pull/link/aggro a few Stonega 3 casting mobs over to that group (intentionally or not). The alliance has two options- ignore the mobs, which WILL aggro them after their initial target(s) are defeated, or engage them. If they are unsuccessful in defeating every last mob that aggro'd the alliance, those mobs will then proceed to KO each and every last alliance member.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions on whether or not they feel they should just leave the battlefield at that point, that's fine, no one is forcing anyone to play the game for an unreasonable amount of time. However, the fact of the matter is that many people are not choosing to leave, and as a result you are left with little choice but to "stick it out" if you want the win.

This is my final rant on the subject because I have nothing new to contribute to it, I am just rephrasing all of my earlier points.

Here is what I see. The Yumcax battle itself is designed just fine. The NM and the adds are not too difficult to deal with when prepared, and everyone works together. It is the combination of the bullet points outlined above that is problematic. Putting myself in the dev team's shoes for a moment, I have to imagine it is difficult to anticipate how these scenarios are actually playing out. The battlefield has a "safe" recovery spot, if everyone is on the same page. The reality is, people enter the battlefield constantly, make a mistake, and repeatedly wipe dozens of other players who are trying to recover.

I have multiple constructive ideas on how to prevent these marathon battles, none of which involve "nerfing" the fight itself because I don't feel that's necessary to do. Maybe the simplest one is most obvious- alter the regen dispelling to either last longer or permanently break. It doesn't fix MPK issues, as I would have to guess altering the mobs behaviors would be a much more involved adjustment. What it does do is prevent progress from reversing itself because one or two individuals slipped up.

In the words of the great philosopher Forrest Gump, "and that's all I've got to say about that."

ummm I think the major problem here is people are lazy and don't want to create groups to go do colonization rieves in yorica, essentially making him unbeatable because he has a high -DT%

[Vivivivi]

ummm I think the major problem here is people are lazy and don't want to create groups to go do colonization rieves in yorica, essentially making him unbeatable because he has a high -DT%

lol

Dam tarutaru

[FrankReynolds]

ummm I think the major problem here is people are lazy and don't want to create groups to go do colonization rieves in yorica, essentially making him unbeatable because he has a high -DT%

Assuming that you are right... how does it make it any less dumb for it to function this way? I mean are you using your computer entirely from the command line? No. Are you lazy? or do microsoft, apple, the linux foundation and just about everyone on the planet besides you realize that making things no one will use is stupid?

[SpankWustler]

Umichi's posts do provide profound (if unintended) insight on what might motivate an otherwise pleasant person to throw on his or her Twilight set and let Diaga rip on the nearest cluster of Panopts, at least.

[SNK]

Hour number 6 here for Yumcax, 160 people, Delve weapons galore, healing, support, Aegis's Ochains, geos, corsairs, still at around 30% health.

If this is an indication of what is to come for delve in these new zones, I'm out.

I'm amused by this. We downed that tree on Carby in a lil over 2 hours. Just needs more CORs and SMNs to burn it.

[Vivivivi]

I'm amused by this. We downed that tree on Carby in a lil over 2 hours. Just needs more CORs and SMNs to burn it.

No it doesn't, It takes not getting MPK'd constantly.

[Demon6324236]

No it doesn't, It takes not getting MPK'd constantly.So very true, any fight where everyone is getting killed every 2 minutes is going to go nowhere, once people stop doing that, the WKs are not all that hard, take a little time, but they are not that hard.

[Rustic]

You have such a condescending attitude in all of your posts. Once people are at the fight, they are pretty much committed to the fight. Most people can't afford to warp and try a different strategy because 75k bayld is a significant investment. Once you're in the battlefield, that's it, you're not leaving. If the battle looks like it's not going well, realistically you have three options: keep slogging along, afk, or log out. In most cases, warping is not an option. On my server, the general attitude is to tough it out and hope the JPs with their army of CORs log on and kill it. That's just reality.

Then the reality is not to enter the field until and if those who can actually handle the fight are there to do so.

And if that means a horde of JP players, then that's just a statement on the sad state of affairs in the NA playerbase.

If you have only a narrow chance of success with the conditions at hand and start anyway, then yes, I do look down on that. It's stupid, foolish, and wasteful of your previous efforts. The mob takes more effort than than what you can generate- stop getting on the court if you can't play ball, hoping that mysterious strangers from the East will kill it for you. Communicate. Plan it out and get in the game with the rest of the "team" that can fight and win- as noted, it's a public fight. If you're going to sit there until they show up anyway flailing and hoping that LOLRANDOM players aren't going to wipe you off the face of Vana'diel, then why not save the effort and open channels of communication with the people who can do the job? Offer to help, find out when they're doing things. Stop trying to "depend" on people who clearly can't fight the fight.

Or sit there for hours frustrated and waste a pile of bayld if you're not lucky. Which is the better plan?

[FrankReynolds]

Then the reality is not to enter the field until and if those who can actually handle the fight are there to do so.

And if that means a horde of JP players, then that's just a statement on the sad state of affairs in the NA playerbase.

If you have only a narrow chance of success with the conditions at hand and start anyway, then yes, I do look down on that. It's stupid, foolish, and wasteful of your previous efforts. The mob takes more effort than than what you can generate- stop getting on the court if you can't play ball, hoping that mysterious strangers from the East will kill it for you. Communicate. Plan it out and get in the game with the rest of the "team" that can fight and win- as noted, it's a public fight. If you're going to sit there until they show up anyway flailing and hoping that LOLRANDOM players aren't going to wipe you off the face of Vana'diel, then why not save the effort and open channels of communication with the people who can do the job? Offer to help, find out when they're doing things. Stop trying to "depend" on people who clearly can't fight the fight.

Or sit there for hours frustrated and waste a pile of bayld if you're not lucky. Which is the better plan?

Knock Knock...

Who's there?

A 99 White Mage

What do you want?

Are there a bunch of Japanese people in there?

Yeah, why?

Are they winning?

Sorta...

What's happening?

IDK...

Well Should I Enter? I don't want to waste my Bayld.

Uhhh... That's up to you man...

Well if I join will I win really fast?

I don't know. It seems... okay right now...


Yeah, but like if I join will I win pretty fast? I have to go to bed in a few hours...

HOW THE F*(&( SHOULD I KNOW?!?

Does anyone else know?

Pish off...


Seriously though, How are people supposed to know if someone is gonna come MPK them? or just generally screw everything up?

[Vivivivi]

Then the reality is not to enter the field until and if those who can actually handle the fight are there to do so.


(In The Rock's Voice) IT DOESNT MATTER IF PEOPLE ARE THERE WHO CAN ACTUALLY HANDLE THE FIGHT.
One person aggroing 3 panopts or more will screw things up for everyone.

This is not a flaw in the players capability to win the fight in a reasonable amount of time, it's a problem with the gameplay mechanic and a public event in which all mobs are targettable by everyone and AOE damage is dealt to everyone.

[Daemon]

How long is too long? When you start getting Alzheimer's..

[FrankReynolds]

I saw something about the panopts and various other things in the dev notes, so hopefully they are fixing this.

[Demon6324236]

Need to make it so the mobs depop when they lose all hate and repop in 10 seconds, would be impossible to sac them, would be impossible to MPK people with them. Maybe not impossible, but much harder than now, where you pull all the mobs & watch them rape everyone...

[Traxus]

(In The Rock's Voice) IT DOESNT MATTER IF PEOPLE ARE THERE WHO CAN ACTUALLY HANDLE THE FIGHT.
One person aggroing 3 panopts or more will screw things up for everyone.

This is not a flaw in the players capability to win the fight in a reasonable amount of time, it's a problem with the gameplay mechanic and a public event in which all mobs are targettable by everyone and AOE damage is dealt to everyone.

While I agree it's pretty screwed up how easy it is for a single player to MPK people in WKR, you could always extend the definition of:


Then the reality is not to enter the field until and if those who can actually handle the fight are there to do so.

to include a tank/dd/whatever party to handle adds that end up on/near the cors/plds/etc fighting the NM.

[Spectreman]

stop blaming SE because playerbase is stupid!


Ok stupid.