Aegis and Ochain after August update?

[OmnysValefor]

Edit: Thanks to Martel at BGWiki we have some testing, and thanks to SpankWustler for highlighting it.

Random Facts - Shield Testing (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108199-Random-Facts-Thread-Other?p=5818292&viewfull=1#post5818292)

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Thanks to Slycer @ BGWiki, we have an unofficial translation of an offcial post by SE.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/117087-Translated-Gear-Take-these-for-granite


Steadfast Shield
DEF:50 MP+60
Shield skill+64 Damage taken-7%

One of the things that stands out, to me, is that crafted, delve and plasm shields are gaining a lot of shield skill, as gear will artificially be inflating our levels.

What about Aegis and Ochain? Will they be gaining shield skill so they can continue to block at their intended rates? Ochain's hidden effect is not 100% blocking as some people believe. It just blocks a lot. Ochain isn't even naturally block-capped against Delve T1 NMs, though I think it is against all delve trash. (With enough skill, it can block-cap, 100% for ochain, against any target.)

Yes, I realize that RME weapons were all effectively nerfed, but buffs to those are coming. I hope that SE keeps these two shields in mind.

[Zumi]

Ochain has the ability to block at 100% with enough skill, everything else is capped at 65%. So all this skill on the shields will be going to waste for the most part unless you are fighting something really high level.

[OmnysValefor]

That's the point, we will be.

Enemy levels will be actually jacked up while we're relying on gear to artifically inflate us. That's why the new weapons have +188 skill, both for the insane acc and att bonus.

Won't know till we fight, but it's likely your normal acc 35~ weapon will barely be able to hit it.

[Zumi]

Then you could just buy the crafted shield if it becomes better for high level content. Those Gabbarth Horn is the only expensive item in crafting a Killedar Shield.

[OmnysValefor]

The reason to have an ochain is the block-rate. SE's answer, if it comes, will help me decide whether or not I 99 ochain. 10 vit hasn't been enough reason.

No, I wouldn't even be making this post if SE hadn't decided to fix RME. Granted, the fix hasn't arrived yet. It isn't even on the horizon, but if this will affect Ochain, they need to be thinking towards that.

[Umichi]

If you looked up the article pertaining to how combat skill + works on weapons and armor and the mentioning that they will only appear on items with an item level and that relics will be getting item levels (although they werent specific what item level it will be) I would assume ochain and aegis will get some sort of combat skill added to it.

[Demon6324236]

They did say that but if I remember right they also said the Shields, Horn, and Harp, would be excluded from said adjustments due to the fact they were not outdated by the new items in their category. I could be wrong.

[OmnysValefor]

They said that Demon, but that was a long while before these +188 weapons.

Originally, we knew that gear would be inflating our stats, but it was mostly thought combat-skill-wise we'd be at the same level, and that our attack, acc, etc would just rise.

Now however, it seems they want all our stats to reflect a huge jump. The plethora of evasion, huge amounts of parry/guard skill on weapons also highlights that NM's will have accuracy stats equal to whatever their level is. (It would have also worked if neither the enemies' accuracy, nor our defensive stats, increased).

In short, they didn't include shields/instruments in the plans before because, before, there was no reason to include them. Now, that might not be the case.

[Babekeke]

They did say that but if I remember right they also said the Shields, Horn, and Harp, would be excluded from said adjustments due to the fact they were not outdated by the new items in their category. I could be wrong.

I thought it was funny to see that the Reive Flute thing has an ilvl of 106... I guess it's just a standard "all items in this category are 106" but still, item level on a flute makes no sense what-so-ever.

[Demon6324236]

They said that Demon, but that was a long while before these +188 weapons.

Originally, we knew that gear would be inflating our stats, but it was mostly thought combat-skill-wise we'd be at the same level, and that our attack, acc, etc would just rise.

Now however, it seems they want all our stats to reflect a huge jump. The plethora of evasion, huge amounts of parry/guard skill on weapons also highlights that NM's will have accuracy stats equal to whatever their level is. (It would have also worked if neither the enemies' accuracy, nor our defensive stats, increased).

In short, they didn't include shields/instruments in the plans before because, before, there was no reason to include them. Now, that might not be the case.The reply was more meant for Umichi, which made it sound as though since they are doing adjustments to other RMEs, they would probably do the same with these. I simply wanted to point out that in their original plans they did say the Shields & Instruments would be excluded, so while it may seem like an obvious adjustment, it is still something worth asking. I completely agree that they should add skill to the shields, the only thing I have to ask is that if they do, will they only raise the item level & Shield skill, add other advantages as well, or simply add skill to the level 95~99 versions themselves since those upgrades are so rare anyways.

I personally think they should just make new items levels with +shield skill, so that if extra work is needed for any other RMEs, it is fair to all, and there can be no complains of Shields or Instruments being given a free road to power. Seeing as Aegis already allows for a PLD to become a near god against magic damage, and Ochain's ability to convert to MP can be boosted at 99 so high that a PLD ends up getting 1 MP for every 2 damage on a blocked attack, neither of their native advantages need boosting any further, only possibly defense, the VIT boost on Ochain, and giving Shield skill needs to be done.


I thought it was funny to see that the Reive Flute thing has an ilvl of 106... I guess it's just a standard "all items in this category are 106" but still, item level on a flute makes no sense what-so-ever.In all honesty, I forgot that existed, I just checked its stats... I must say, I don't understand why they couldn't just make the +2 to all songs apply everywhere... its not that overpowering, its really weak still, its just something for people like me who don't want to take the time to make a RE Instrument, or carry around a ton instruments for different songs. If they did that, at least it might make sense for its level, a little, but no~...

[OmnysValefor]

Oh Demon, I know the reply was @ Umichi. I was just providing some information on it.

I agree completely. Shield skill and *maybe* defense are all that either could need. However, if SE chose to keep other shields having higher defense than Aegischain, I'm all for that, even knowing the special role that a shield's defense has.

[Demon6324236]

So nice when we agree! ^_^

[Umichi]

I agree though, they aren't many items that outclass their uniqueness prolly nothing lol..

[OmnysValefor]

Please SE, comment on this. Ochain's stake is that it blocks often. I like that idea that it won't block the most. The best weapons still weren't always the best in every aspect, just that the total package was worth building it.

[Taint2]

Until SE fixes PLD who gives a shit about Aegis/Ochain (yes I have both)

PLD isn't used for anything relevant. People bring PLDs to new fights, figure the fight out and replace the PLD with a DD. Its a safety net job with no real use.

[OmnysValefor]

I give a sh* because I enjoy PLD, but I know exactly what you mean.

[svengalis]

Until SE fixes PLD who gives a shit about Aegis/Ochain (yes I have both)

PLD isn't used for anything relevant. People bring PLDs to new fights, figure the fight out and replace the PLD with a DD. Its a safety net job with no real use.

Haven't seen them replaced in wildskeeper reives yet.

[Camiie]

So does this FINALLY mean more truly endgame viable shield options, or will one still need an A&O Club Membership Card to play PLD?

[OmnysValefor]

Haven't seen them replaced in wildskeeper reives yet.

They chiefly only work in wildskeeper reives because death in WK reives doesn't matter.

DD on boss know they're going to die either from absurd aoe, absurd tp moves, or when they finally do cap hate. WK reives have all been about throwing bodies at it.

<You> want me there to Flash Achuka, but not Tojil.

[OmnysValefor]

So does this FINALLY mean more truly endgame viable shield options, or will one still need an A&O Club Membership Card to play PLD?

In Aegis' case, Aegis is still king by and far for magic damage, even if it gains no shield skill. Aegischain PLDs don't expect Aegis to block.

I'm not sure how much influence skill has on Ochain, whether or not it has a minimum block value, etc, so it's tough to say.

[SpankWustler]

To very, very briefly summarize Martel's test sever findings here (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108199-Random-Facts-Thread-Other?p=5818292&viewfull=1#post5818292):

Steadfast Shield beats out Aegis for physical damage mitigation but falls well behind Killedar Shield and Ochain. Killedar Shield beats out Ochain for overall physical damage mitigation, in spite of a lower block rate, due to mitigating a larger amount of damage per block. It's not hard to infer which shield has the advantage between the two, given Paladin's many options for increasing block rate.

The tests are not on super-duper high level monsters, if that matters.

It is noteworthy that Killedar shield achieved a 100% block rate against one of the low level sets of monsters in the test, indicating the 100% block rate cap is not unique to Ochain (and presumably never has been, but nothing ever added 200-250 skill before).

[OmnysValefor]

That's precisely what I feared lol.

It's good to see other shields being worthwhile SE, but Ochain and Aegis are going to need some love.

Please address this, or at least, comment.

[dasva]

In Aegis' case, Aegis is still king by and far for magic damage, even if it gains no shield skill. Aegischain PLDs don't expect Aegis to block.

I'm not sure how much influence skill has on Ochain, whether or not it has a minimum block value, etc, so it's tough to say.

That's not true. Aegis has a decent block rate and until Ochain came around was the shield used for blocking. The blockrate on aegis is the main thing it has over using a runefencer right now.

Right now skill wont do much for ochain because it already is blocking near 100% of the time without buffs.... while Kiledar get's close enough on hard stuff that it can still acheive that 100% with buffs which are easy to maintain. So now you got 2 shields that will block 100% of the time with one blocking more dmg... adding more blockrate to the one blocking less dmg wont save it unless you make mobs with levels so high that it takes Ochain with a butt load of skill to maintain blockrate. At which point you are right back at the start so why even make a shield that is better at lower level stuff to begin with? Especially when they blatantly said they wouldn't be upgrading shields/instruments because they wouldn't be outclassing them

[Fynlar]

The blockrate on aegis is the main thing it has over using a runefencer right now.

Actually, it's more the fact that Aegis doesn't care what element damage you're taking and, barring encumbrance, is always functioning, whereas RNF's effectiveness is restricted to flimsy JAs.

As stated, Aegis is not reasonably expected to block any appreciable amount of physical damage anymore.

[OmnysValefor]

That's not true. Aegis has a decent block rate and until Ochain came around was the shield used for blocking. The blockrate on aegis is the main thing it has over using a runefencer right now.

Before Ochain, Aegis wasn't just the shield used for blocking. Aegis was just the shield used. It had a great block rate, but when you're used to 90+% (sometimes 100%), you expect 40-65% to fail you when you need it most


Right now skill wont do much for ochain because it already is blocking near 100% of the time without buffs.... while Kiledar get's close enough on hard stuff that it can still acheive that 100% with buffs which are easy to maintain. So now you got 2 shields that will block 100% of the time with one blocking more dmg... adding more blockrate to the one blocking less dmg wont save it unless you make mobs with levels so high that it takes Ochain with a butt load of skill to maintain blockrate. At which point you are right back at the start so why even make a shield that is better at lower level stuff to begin with? Especially when they blatantly said they wouldn't be upgrading shields/instruments because they wouldn't be outclassing them

They never said they won't be outclassing shields/instruments, it's just that, at that point, they hadn't. RME upgrades weren't part of their intentions either. It took them something like two weeks to even formulate a reply to how they'd address RME.

We might fight the new delve trash/bosses and find that Killedar needs the 200 skill just to block at a 60% rate. Trash in new delve might be level 115, we don't know. Ochain might need 200 skill as well.

It might not.

As I said before, I'm fine with att/defense needing to grow, I'm surprised that that they chose the route of acc/evasion / m.acc/evasion and the same stats for monsters needing to grow so high. It only causes them to start creating gear that, before long, might rival some people's previous entire ws sets.

[OmnysValefor]

Nothin' to see here but a shameless bump.

Please give us an update SE.

[OmnysValefor]

Bump.

I'm still curious what/if SE intends to do anything about Aegis/Ochain in the fabled REM update.

[Babekeke]

Bump.

I'm still curious what/if SE intends to do anything about Aegis/Ochain in the fabled REM update.

Higher block rate means fewer interrupts to casting, which is still important against the highest tier mobs, so Ochain is not useless by any means, and doesn't need an update.

And still Aegis is THE BEST TOOL IN THE GAME for magic damage mitigation.

[OmnysValefor]

No need for caps. :)

Aegis is still the best tool. It will probably have floored blocking against new delve NMs, but to be practical, paladins don't really get to fight NMs, but shield-swapping is a thing (whether it be Ochain/Aegis or Killedar/Aegis).

The thing people aren't understanding is that shield skill does influence ochain's blocking and that anything that requires 650~ shield skill might really hurt Ochain. It might not, it's tough to say. New fodder could even be high-level.

The only ones that know at the moment is SE, and that's why I'm asking them.

If I need to have a Killedar, I'll have one, but just like all the other RME owners, I want my time invested into them to matter.

[Damane]

No need for caps. :)

Aegis is still the best tool. It will probably have floored blocking against new delve NMs, but to be practical, paladins don't really get to fight NMs, but shield-swapping is a thing (whether it be Ochain/Aegis or Killedar/Aegis).

The thing people aren't understanding is that shield skill does influence ochain's blocking and that anything that requires 650~ shield skill might really hurt Ochain. It might not, it's tough to say. New fodder could even be high-level.

The only ones that know at the moment is SE, and that's why I'm asking them.

If I need to have a Killedar, I'll have one, but just like all the other RME owners, I want my time invested into them to matter.

considering only lvl 99 REMs are getting the update I see alot of butthurt going on on 90 ochains if it gets useless withotu being 99 to gain the skill+ :X, but alas its peoples own fault for not getting the shield up to 99 for the job they love!

[OmnysValefor]

Yep, neither of my shields is 99. I had better places to spend the gil, so yeah, as I said earlier in the thread, if they do buff the shields, it will cost me about 220m, most of that is Ochain, and I'm not griping. I'm not asking for a buff to 90 or 95.

5 vit and 10% more damage->mp didn't seem worth 165m gil. The same and 200~ shield skill certainly is though.

[OmnysValefor]

Quoting Matsui vis Camate:


Not only Ochain, but all existing shields will still have their same block rate as usual.

Other shields will not have a block rate that gets close to Ochain; however, there will be shields that have a higher damage reduction when blocking than Ochain.

More than just preserving Ochain, it's that we are in a situation where Ochain adjustments are extremely difficult due to the fact that strategies that involve the use of Ochain are well-established.

If we were to convert the block rate of Ochain into terms of item level, it would just about be item level 150. In the case we were to reduce the stats to something more proportionate (consider RME weapons), it would be tied to increased difficulties in Delve plasm farming and such.

If this is what is wanted, we can always take a look at reducing the block rate on Ochain; however, I don't believe you'd want this, and neither do I.

We'd like to avoid the consequences of nerfing Ochain, and have selected to add stats to shields we introduce here on out so they can gradually get closer to the stats of Ochain. If anything is unclear with these intentions, please let me know.

As shields, including ochain, stood. Blocking would have been bad for anything but shields with lots of shield skill on them. They're making changes to so that shields continue to block at their intended rates.